512: Bojack Horseman Season 2 (Over)

[sthar8]

/confirm hammer

why are we not allowed to spam pregame again?

[sthar8]

This is me acknowledging that I choose not to RVS.


I don't need to this game.

[sthar8]

This is me acknowledging that I choose not to RVS.


I don't need to this game.

You can still participate in the discussion.

maybe later.

[sthar8]

This is me acknowledging that I choose not to RVS.


I don't need to this game.

You can still participate in the discussion.

maybe later.

absolutely not. i asked you to join because i wanted to play with you.

Sorry, I'm smashed at work and not in a good state of mind right now. I promise I will engage and play in this game... just not right now.

If anyone wants to wagon me that's cool.

[sthar8]

Can't sleep so we're doing this shit now. Only six pages. Please hold.

[sthar8]

VOTE: Sekai no ki
Let's see who the best hydra is!

How did you two meet/ decide to hydra?

how about we stop creating single vote wagons that lead nowhere and you guys sheep me on ETL instead?

Why should I?

Who are your heads?

I could maybe see it being "jumpy" although it's not what I had in mind.

@ Wisdom, if I wanted to spill my reasons just yet, I probably would have typed it up along with the post. I want to see what Kaboose does when he returns which would confirm or weaken my suspicion. Do you disagree? Also, is your push to wagon ETL RVS-based?

This is probably town

Even if you were town, you would still not know whether my push on you is RVS or not.

This is stupid.

neh

I don't believe you. At some point I'll be conftown and you'll still be voting me. Let's get it started already.

inb4 Wisdom and ETL are scum team

I'm actually thinking this is a legit possibility. The interaction really doesn't make sense to me. And it does ping as bussing imho

-Bearbert head

Nope.

ESL

oh. my. god. becky.

i actually have a pretty huge problem with Wisdom's posts. i don't like that he never elaborated on his reasoning for voting etl anywhere

I mean, that's how wisdom plays in every game. I'm pretty sure he randomly determines his scumreads, refuses to explain them because there is no explanation, then deathtunnels them with meaningless rhetorical tactics like posting to say they're wrong or scum every time they post in the thread. It's really annoying, and ime he's accurate a little less often than dice. If he's town and randos to scum, he's their worst nightmare because you can't argue with invincible ignorance. If he's town and he tunnels town, he might as well be an extra member of the scumteam. If he's scum he'll presumably start trying to advance the scum wincon. He'll get policy lynched or otherwise sorted at some point.

i just /inned first when i saw you+ETL+sthar

<3 kid

the back and forth between etl/wisdom in pages 2-3 are the most alignment indicative things that happened in this game

That's not true. I didn't RVS.

OK so this little piggy has townreads on the blue kid and the winged alt.

The market piggy is buying shares in snowplow companies, so I'd like to see the weather system stick around for a while. Particularly interested in ursine opinions.

The roast beef piggy wants snork to look into his big brown eyes and state his alignment, please.

The proletariat piggy calls for a redistribution of beef, and until that happens he says ETL is off the table.

And THIS little piggy wants to go wee wee wee all over the last train car (even though I still love him) and the blinky anime globe, maybe.

VOTE: Kaboose

[sthar8]

hmmmmmmmmmmm

i think that post could be town

the first few comments were pretty useless though

the... ones where i want to know who the players in the game are?

[sthar8]

thank you

[sthar8]

Okay I'm just going to say it because I will look stupid and probably suspicious pushing ETL like this if I don't. I should have replaced out, and I am sorry that I didn't, but too late now.

See this? I made it because I caught ETL reading and replying to a private topic since we started confirming for this game and onwards.

I have six PT's that ETL has access to. Some of them are for hydras, some of them are not game related at all. This is like scumreading someone for being online during the night phase.

Plus that's borderline cheating so how about we just play the game instead?

[sthar8]

yeah probably

p-edit it totally is. why would you even look at that?

[sthar8]

on her main

[sthar8]

No there are two options here.

either

1. AP determines that we have no game breaking information, in which case you are probably conftown for attempting to unethically break the game

or

2. You cheated, the game is compromised and AP will need to scrap the setup. Plus you get reviewed by the listmods.

[sthar8]

If it were my game, I'd modkill you either way for attempting to cheat.

But I'll respect AP's decision either way.

[sthar8]

but, y'know, without compromising the game or attempting to play with an unfair advantage.

I'm incredibly disappointed in you.

See y'all after AP makes his decision.

[sthar8]

It's not actually his fault, I don't think it's intentional cheating, like

It was, in fact, intentional cheating. In your analogy, there is a mirror into the girls locker room. Wisdom noticed it, which is not a huge deal. But then rather than reporting it, he kept sneaking out of class to watch the girls change.

If you accidentally find out that someone has a PT, you report it to the mod and ask to be replaced. He decided that he was going to use the illicitly gained information to advantage in this game, which is intentional cheating.

AP handled it correctly, but Wisdom's earned a spot on my blacklist. I don't play with cheaters.

[sthar8]

votes as of the modkill are reset.

As a forewarning, please no more discussion of the events around the modkill.

Also I'm going to be doing a 6 hour long physical activity team thing today so I will be offline all day. I will try and catch up on VCS tomorrow. Will be fully back on Monday.

Sorry AP I hadn't read this yet. I'm done, I promise.

[sthar8]

sigh sounds about right.

So sthar8, how do you come by your scum read of us?

The jump on Sonic was a huge stretch. Kinda seemed like you might be

looking

for evidence to scumread him, rather than scumreading him based on the evidence.

We need to policy lynch ETL.

I'll handle ETL.

ily sthar. who's town?

I said in my catchup post.

Wings and sonic. And I should be pretty solid town now too.

No lynch is still a bad idea I think. We'd better no-lynch at 4 people not now. Plus, if we have a vig or a heal or something like that, the no-lynch is meaningless.

goodposting

No lynch is still a bad idea I think. We'd better no-lynch at 4 people not now. Plus, if we have a vig or a heal or something like that, the no-lynch is meaningless.

Let's assume since it's 9 player game 2-7 was original composition.

Now if we lynch now and it flips town that's two town gone with possible third in the night.

So six players left in day 2, we mislynch there and they get a kill it's game over.


So worst case scenario this game is over by end of day 2.

Because you guys want to lynch,

This is really dumb.

[sthar8]

how much do you know about how ms plays/thinks as scum vs. town? i think your assessment of his play is severely incorrect if you don't think he enjoys spam posting or that making a bunch of spam posts is something he often does as scum - this is even more so the case when he literally just got out of a game where he and titus (in-hydra) rolled scum and did that exact thing.

there is also that i partially just wanted to warn everyone in advance that if he started posting a bunch of nonsense posts he was likely scum because i don't feel like dealing with that shit

that said, i no longer think it's a thing now that he clarified he had asked her pregame. what do you make of him claiming it made him "obvtown" when he'd probably be honest about it even if he was scum here?

I am aware of his spammy tendencies. As scum he's doing it for carnival, as town he gets distracted by irrelevant things like dick-measuring.

Specifically I take issue with the "I want to play with a friend" bit being scummy. Even if he hadn't asked her until after he saw his PM, I don't think it would have been alignment indicative. Sonic has plenty of ego and confidence; there's no way he thinks he needs titus' help. It's much more likely that he wants titus in the game because he enjoys playing with her as either alignment.

[sthar8]

i think firebringer suggesting a no lynch is incredibly dumb, but he's probably town. it reads like he thought something along the lines of "no lynch is the theoretically correct play today" (even though it's not, in part for reasons pointed out already) and thinks anyone who disagrees with it has to be bad at the game for not agreeing with it. i really do not think he would have thought to fake it or approach it in this way as scum, and if he did, i think it would have came off more awkward than it did here.

I agree. You guys can be town for a bit.

[sthar8]

11 hour workday on my day off. I MIGHT catchup tonight.

[sthar8]

Alt.

heh. called it.

[sthar8]

I probably have a bigger problem with the people who were all scum reading me but allowed this to be the first vote.

i was voting you before the reset and havent been in thread since. This is a bad line of logic.

[sthar8]

who?

p-edit @etl

[sthar8]

i wouldnt worry about him too much. invincible ignorance and all that. you may not like him, but if he's always as superficial as his badmath he's gonna be super easy to read. plus you always want a player or two like him in a game when you're scum.

[sthar8]

polar is probably town. wings is probably town. sonic seems town to me, except for the garbage claim but he is off the table regardless so idk why we're wasting time on him, frustrations aside.

etl and fairypie are null rn, but that might just be paranoia.

that leaves kaboots and prometheus.

of the two, I think boose is more likely to be scum.

VOTE: kaboose

[sthar8]

i wouldnt worry about him too much. invincible ignorance and all that. you may not like him, but if he's always as superficial as his badmath he's gonna be super easy to read. plus you always want a player or two like him in a game when you're scum.

You know who are the best liars?
The ones you think can't lie well.

You never expect it from them.

Think about that before writing me off as "easy to read"

oooh scary

[sthar8]

Sthar, it's not fun playing with bad townies as scum:( I want a challenge personally

I don't mean "bad." I mean "obstinately stubborn."

[sthar8]

I don't have a problem with you, you have problem with me.
Either get over it or don't but why should I accommodate you because you can't be a adult?

back the fuck off please.

[sthar8]

sthar please save my sanity. tell me you looked at the link i posted for BEES re: metal sonic. if you say you are townreading that after his posts today i will die.

who cares? he claimed. Be calm and let it sort itself.

[sthar8]

EBWOP no i didnt have time to look. But it doesnt matter.

[sthar8]

but I did become disengaged. It was at the point where Wisdom explained why he was pushing etl. I thought the game was probably broken and I was pissed off.

no worries, i felt the same

[sthar8]

a selection:

VOTE: firebringer

You are no longer welcome here.

squicky opportunism

Question to everyone:

What person lynched rightn. Ow would give us the most info?

And why?


I still don't want a lynch today but I would like to hear peoples thoughts

How am I being scum read more than this person?

defense by red herring

When I play a game, I remember the reads I had, which reads were right and which reads were wrong. I watch for the flips throughout the game and after the game ends to reflect on whether I was right or wrong. If a player I was townreading flips scum, I remember that I misread him and he got past me. If I read them correctly, I keep in mind the tells I have for them that were accurate. And vice-versa if a player flips town. I don't understand how you remembered his play and behavior in past games but forgot that he was scum. Normally when players make reads based off of past games, it typically follows a pattern of "I've misread this player" or "I have a method for accurately reading this player and I was accurate in these games." You'd then use what you learned in future games for a hopefully more accurate read this time around.

That's so cool that you do all that. But I don't. I've played enough games with Wisdom to have recollection of his posting style to some degree. I've played with ETL before too and really have no clue how to read them. I don't even know what her alignment was in any of them either. Not without going back and looking. And I wouldn't even know what MY alignment was in any of those games without looking.

I think I remember us being on the same scum team once.

This is such a bullshit thing to pin on me.

this is cool and probably legit, but it doesn't fit with being able to scumread someone over meta. I think it's backpedaling.

Hey Wingback, you want my password so you can just type whatever for me and that way you can quit making things up and have them actually be true?

i really like this, actually. i say this shit all the time as town. but he hasn't like, followed up or anything. i don't know what about WB's post he thinks is a lie, and calling someone out for revisionist assertions that can theoretically be disproven with fact checking is pretty empty unless you actually do the fact checking.

[sthar8]

shit that was @etl re kablosse over firecrotch

the other one is all badlogic that can be explained by being familiar with a different meta, and antagonism that can be explained by a massive ego. i'll look at whoever's case, but i'm not feeling it rn.

[sthar8]

EBWOP no i didnt have time to look. But it doesnt matter.

you know what i mean. either he does something tonight, or he dies, or we revisit tomorrow. i'm not in a place where i have a lot of extra fucks to give over things that might not matter. i promise to look at it if i need to, his cop claim was really shit and he should know better.

[sthar8]

also i might call you later. its been a really shitty day.

[sthar8]

So yeah, continue to insult me.

I have heard much better than "firecrotch"

We taking to personnel insults really? Lol

not an insult. redheads are hot

[sthar8]

he was all about lynching liars, and people gambiting was anathema to him.

i feel that way being familiar with the site meta. I was more referring to the no-lynch thing, which is actually correct if your meta features setups where power roles can qb a game.

[sthar8]

UNVOTE:

catching up.

[sthar8]

i wouldnt worry about him too much. invincible ignorance and all that. you may not like him, but if he's always as superficial as his badmath he's gonna be super easy to read. plus you always want a player or two like him in a game when you're scum.

NOOOOOOOO NO WAY

firebringer managed to bring the fire on tammara. You know, Drama Queens? Tammy and Ms. Marangal? Ring a bell?

His lolabrasive tone is more indicative of town.

OK sure. I was pointing out that I wouldn't worry about blacklisting him because he's small fish.

[sthar8]

a hypothetical scum-Sthar8 would have to townread etl I think if she's town

no. ETL, you wanna dig up that little game with snork?

[sthar8]

misrep

This word is the mark of a bad player. Please don't use it.

[sthar8]

sthar!!!!'

what

[sthar8]

that was the other snork game. i'm talking about the 5p where i kept saying "you should hydra with ETL! you play exactly the same!"

[sthar8]

i was town when i called you a prick

[sthar8]

i feel like firebanger is the low hanging fruit here.

liking sonic a whole lot less, and I'm still annoyed with his claim. I think there's one scum between him and ETL.

pfferie are pinging me but I'm not sure why. Might be because y'all are such cute little bunnies and they've got teeth.

Can someone summarize the wing case for me? I don't see it.

I need to think about who I want to vote.

[sthar8]

oh you little jerk. i just reread your ISO in that game.

you didn't know i was snork there either! that was just before i told you.

i was suspicious, that's why i kept bringing it up.

[sthar8]

its a mystery

[sthar8]

what other question?

[sthar8]

how do you feel about ffery rn?

[sthar8]

because there are votes on him

[sthar8]

VOTE: ETL

sheeping

[sthar8]

heloooo

hey baby how you doin

[sthar8]

gimme more on this.

It applies to you too. I don't have any solid scumreads. Therefore, I should look at players who are capable of looking town as scum. All three of you are VERY capable. Also there's probably a bit of omgus in there which is iffy because while i feel like i should be obvious town, I understand why pie would scumread me comparing with TM and just from general paranoia.

There's actually a really big easy push on me that's

not

happening for some reason, and I'm trying to figure out what that means.

[sthar8]

because there are votes on him

Well, sonic voted him because he wasn't town enough and firebringer sheeped him because sonic was nice to him.

Which is why I asked to see their case, because thats terrible.

[sthar8]

pfferie are pinging me but I'm not sure why. Might be because y'all are such cute little bunnies and they've got teeth.

Probably has something to do with us being suspicious of you.

I agree with you about firebringer being low hanging fruit.

I don't think I've ever played with you before.

1. probably
2. good
3. like twice iirc. only in hydras.

[sthar8]

i know you were in AP's abomination that I barely played in, but I did read up most of. Other than that I'd have to look and I'm not doing that rn. Maybe later.

I'm in cask, catbug, lying cat. I'm also katieb and a couple of secret alts/hydras if that helps.

[sthar8]

oh right

UNVOTE:

ETL told me to vote her for president.

[sthar8]

STHAR I DID THIS FOR YOU AND YOU DISAPPEARED WITHOUT A WORD.

look at the time, please. i had to go to work.

[sthar8]

There's no having an actual conversation with him that doesn't include insults and hostility.

I told you so.

[sthar8]

Mafia is a game of logic, not psychology.
We are here to lie and spot liars,

lol

[sthar8]

firebringer, serious question:

how old are you?

[sthar8]

cute

[sthar8]

We can agree purpose of mafia is for mafia to lie to town and kill them and town to find the liars and kill them

It's not that complicated.

That's not it at all! The goal for mafia is actually to stay alive! Lying and killing are actually secondary scum skills.

firebringer, serious question:

how old are you?

This is not a serious question.

I don't care if you know but honestly it's a bad question.

I am 23 by the way.

It

is

a serious question, and since that's a statement of intent you're woefully unqualified to declare otherwise.

Whether it's a

good

question is a value judgement, and you're entitled to your uninformed opinion.

So you've graduated highschool. Presumably you have some college? Are you finished or still enrolled or taking a break?

Is English your first language?

You said your job involves math. What do you do for a living?

[sthar8]

Only the questions I asked, please.

[sthar8]

Not sure how this is related to the game, sthar

I'm profiling him. I did the same thing to you once, but I was more subtle about it.

[sthar8]

Lol are you a real life cop? Lol

The profiling makes this game completely creepy.

No.

Face to face I wouldn't need to ask you questions. This is a limitation of the text-based medium. I do not believe we are communicating effectively, so I'd like to establish a baseline for your cognitive development, general empathy, and primary motivation. I'd also like to understand any language or cultural barriers. This will help me communicate with you more efficiently and form a more accurate read on your in-game intent.

[sthar8]

Do you actually write these profiles down or remember them in your head?

I keep a list of my old games so I can refer to them for a refresher if I need. Jingle and I talk about player profiles after just about every game we play.

[sthar8]

did jingle tell you about how i caught his scummy butt in the mafia dating game show? he considered it a personal victory if he could have gotten me lynched together, but he knew the game was over

That was the game where saint admitted trust telling right? We haven't talked about it yet because meatworld has been a nightmare.

I studied developmental psychology until I ran out of money.

I currently manage a comic book store. Within the next year that will be changing to "whatever work I can get" or "owning a comic book store."

[sthar8]

Lol are you a real life cop? Lol

The profiling makes this game completely creepy.

No.

Face to face I wouldn't need to ask you questions. This is a limitation of the text-based medium. I do not believe we are communicating effectively, so I'd like to establish a baseline for your cognitive development, general empathy, and primary motivation. I'd also like to understand any language or cultural barriers. This will help me communicate with you more efficiently and form a more accurate read on your in-game intent.

Why are you focusing on Firebringer? Do you seriously need all that to read him better or do you want to work with him that bad?

It all seems pretty unnecessary. And you didn't ask these questions to anyone else. The game has also been going on for some days, so if you wanted to profile him, why wait until now?

His attitude and approach are disruptive to the game, and attempts to reason with him have been met with dismissal and derision. Do you really not see the point of figuring out how to talk to him without screaming "why are you not listening?!" every third post?

[sthar8]

I don't think anyone should be expected to answer personal questions from a stranger on the internet. I'd be pretty creeped out, too.

The only 'personal' question in the lot is asking about his job. And he brought it up first, when he suggested it as evidence that his math couldn't be wrong. Being willing to use it as evidence off the cuff like that suggests that he's comfortable talking about it.

[sthar8]

@ sthar listening is different from agreeing . I have listened to you guys plenty.

I understand that. I was speaking to PV's perspective.

[sthar8]

Sekai no Ki, Wingback, sthar8, why no vote?

I'm not sure where I want it to be in a post-kaboose claim world.

[sthar8]

Thoughts on no lunch again??

It's better to no-lynch later in the game when we have more information. It's unlikely that the risk outweighs the benefit of being able to look back at today later for associatives, and we can't rely on the PRs to solve the game for us especially after the claims we've had today.

[sthar8]

I don't get any profiling:(


Well, wanted to ask. Sekai didn't claim their flavour, no?

Oh, and has anybody who has watched thr show thought who would be the evil characters? I don't see any obvious choice tbf. So clearing kaboose for claiming bojack isn't that good. I mean the way he claimed makes him PI, not what he claimed.

And no, we aren't no lynching. Try something else

I didn't need to ask you any questions to make some basic assumptions about how you communicate

It is fantastically unlikely that flavor is tied to alignment in any meaningful fashion.

[sthar8]

I'd kinda like it if the whole topic gets dropped.

That's perfectly fair and I'm not going to push it, especially since I feel like I got what I needed from the interaction.

But for the record, in a casual setting if you say in conversation "you're wrong about that. I have a lot of experience with that issue from work." it would be neither invasive nor rude to ask "oh? where do you work?" I would never have posed the question without prior indication that it was a comfortable topic.

[sthar8]

It's only disruptive if you let it disrupt. He's one of several players in this game, one you described as low hanging fruit. So, of all people you can interact with, read and try to work with, you chose the disruptive low hanging fruit. You can ignore him, you can read him without trying to have a conversation with him, you don't need to reason with him. What you're doing is not productive and doesn't make sense.

Given how much time you and ETL are wasting trying to deal with him, I don't think it's reasonable for

you

to judge

my

efforts as unproductive. Antagonistic or not, he's a player in this game which means I need to form a read on him.

If he's town, as I suspect, then an effort to help him become a contributing member of the town should be pretty obviously welcome to townies.

Making a decree as to how

I

can best form a read is questionable to the point of being scummy.

[sthar8]

So?

[sthar8]

Read my post please. I said that criticizing me for dealing with firebringer, when your own slot is spending time doing the same thing, is laughably bad.

[sthar8]

yeah, but at least my other half has gone in a completly different direction. I mean our slot has not been one dimensional, but you in thr last days at least interacted mostly with firebringer. Who are your scumreads?

There is one of me, and two of you. This is almost as bad as defending with "oh no that was my other head."

[sthar8]

Was rereading PV's iso, considering a vote there.

Wing, I'll get back to you a little later, gotta go to work.

[sthar8]

There's actually a really big easy push on me that's

not

happening for some reason, and I'm trying to figure out what that means.

What did you mean by this? You got read as town early and there was never a point where you came under serious pressure. It could mean that scum are townreading you but it would depend on who the scum are. Is there a reason you were expecting to be an easy target?

I jumped on defending ETL from wisdom's attempted cheating. It's possible that the scumteam is oblivious enough to have not seen it, it is possible that ETL is scum and her team decided not to push something that implicated her, and it is possible that the scumteam didn't think they'd have enough traction from that to lynch me.

If I were ETL's scumbuddy, I would want the sthar-slot lynched ASAP, since the broken logic there could be used to pseudoclear her. If ETL were town and I were scum, I'd want sthar-slot lynched for defending her. I might push that they're likely scumbuddies or that sthar-slot is wk-ing, but more likely I'd push her first on the scumbuddy logic and then him on the wk-ing logic.

It's a high value, low risk play for scum, and I'm trying to figure out why they didn't take it.

[sthar8]

@wing, fferyguyn- Talk to me about PV. I don't see anything in their iso that looks like legitimate scumhunting. They're focusing on the theoryfight with furbringer over providing content, and their jump onto me was both telegraphed and really weak.

I'm not sure if I'm just frustrated with the double standard and revisionism, but I looked through their ISO and I can't recall why I was townreading them.

Can someone who is not ETL tell my why they want to lynch firebrother?

ETL- did you catch my early game crumbs?

I think rn I want PV, but I might compromise onto sonic for all the buddying.

[sthar8]

VOTE: Sthar.

Firsts.

omgus

VOTE: polar vortex

It's pretty obviously not an omgus vote? We were suspecting sthar so we started questioning him. He then turns himself to us. He's omgusing really. Subtly, but he is

These contortions look painful.

[sthar8]

IDK maybe I'm wrong.

PV- show my why you thought I was suspicious using only things that came up before I called you scummy.

[sthar8]

*show me

[sthar8]

BTW, you still haven't answered what your current stance on MS/ETL and Ffery is. Did you forget you suspected them? Or were they random baseless reads too?

reading is tech

[sthar8]

gimme more on this.

It applies to you too. I don't have any solid scumreads. Therefore, I should look at players who are capable of looking town as scum. All three of you are VERY capable. Also there's probably a bit of omgus in there which is iffy because while i feel like i should be obvious town, I understand why pie would scumread me comparing with TM and just from general paranoia.

There's actually a really big easy push on me that's

not

happening for some reason, and I'm trying to figure out what that means.

There's actually a really big easy push on me that's

not

happening for some reason, and I'm trying to figure out what that means.

What did you mean by this? You got read as town early and there was never a point where you came under serious pressure. It could mean that scum are townreading you but it would depend on who the scum are. Is there a reason you were expecting to be an easy target?

I jumped on defending ETL from wisdom's attempted cheating. It's possible that the scumteam is oblivious enough to have not seen it, it is possible that ETL is scum and her team decided not to push something that implicated her, and it is possible that the scumteam didn't think they'd have enough traction from that to lynch me.

If I were ETL's scumbuddy, I would want the sthar-slot lynched ASAP, since the broken logic there could be used to pseudoclear her. If ETL were town and I were scum, I'd want sthar-slot lynched for defending her. I might push that they're likely scumbuddies or that sthar-slot is wk-ing, but more likely I'd push her first on the scumbuddy logic and then him on the wk-ing logic.

It's a high value, low risk play for scum, and I'm trying to figure out why they didn't take it.

I think rn I want PV, but I might compromise onto sonic for all the buddying.

thats thoughts on ETL, animehydra, and MS. all fresh, all in-thread for any random passerby to read.

[sthar8]

But then, most of it is pretty unprovable since we were discussing a sonic-sthar partnership between the heads. Snowstorm said it's best to keep quiet about you before sonic would presumably flip scum. But he went to question you(which was the attack I mentioned really). After that we think you felt the suspicion in that questioning and went for us.

So I'm clearly OMGUS-ing you because I obviously knew that in your private communications you were discussing being suspicious of me before I called you scummy and chose to preempt the in-thread debut of this information, which I clearly learned via telepathy, by finding your push on me suspect?

[sthar8]

I actually did know that you were gonna start pushing me, but I didn't care. When you actually did, it was for bad and clearly not alignment indicative reasons, things that if you're town you KNOW town is thinking about doing because YOUR SLOT WAS DOING THEM. The double standard and clearly manufactured reasoning pinged me, so I went back and read your ISO. In the meantime, you conjured a hydra-dissonance defense which is pretty objectively scummy and attempted to strawman off your original argument by claiming a bullshit standard of content which is garbage because a) I actually am meeting it and b) you don't say why not meeting it is scummy.

Thing is, there's no way you could reasonably assume that I expected you to push me, so the whole OMGUS angle is either craplogic or scummy revisionism.

You'll note I'm not voting for you yet. I need to talk to the other players first.

[sthar8]

That's nice and dismissive and completely untrue.

Go ahead and list your 'points.'

I'll rephrase my reads on those three into smaller words in a minute, since apparently reading is hard.

[sthar8]

man thats a long paragraph to read. could you do like a chart or something?

[sthar8]

also, having read it now, it's completely daft.

[sthar8]

nah i'm just busy at work. there's more coming later.

[sthar8]

This is a cute fight.

Can you two please take a look at ETL tell me why I should town read her?

Kthanks

I'd rather resolve ETL through means other than a d1 lynch.

I'm profiling him. I did the same thing to you once, but I was more subtle about it.

can you link me to the game where you did this and what your alignment was in it?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p6011223

I was town, in the Lying Cat hydra. Be aware that when I say I was more subtle in that game, I mean I was a dick to sonic and gauged his reactions (hey sonic, remember "I'd rather lobotomize myself with a dildo than read your meta?"). I've also done it to TSO, Greyfoxx, and HearTheLightning with questions and with almost every player I've ever encountered through observation. It's not explicitly a town-thing, though I can't think of any scumgames where I did it overtly in-thread. Basically the point is to determine how best to communicate with the other person, which makes reading them and manipulating them easier. Though I will say that after crash coursing with TSO and then playing as his scumpartner, I have never been incorrect reading him.

What I was doing in the game with you is something different. I borrowed the tactic from Titus; she uses it to reach compromise with players with whom she is in conflict. You take turns asking each other questions, guaranteeing honest and complete answers. I've always been vaguely amused by how easy it is to manipulate from either side as scum.

i think this is the kind of thing someone would be able to realize if they sat down and looked at it for a while, which is why i think sthar pushing it as scum motivated is a shallow analysis of the situation

I think you're misunderstanding my point there. I don't doubt that Kaboose doesn't remember who was scum in his previous games. What I take issue with is that

knowing he isn't remembering accurately, he would attempt to use meta from those games

as a reason for suspicion. That seemed manufactured to me, and I felt like he was using truth to cover for his earlier bullshitting.

i like polar's fake daycop claim. i think they're *probably* town, although i think most of what they've done individually would be fakeable.

Can you expound on this please? What is making you think town there?

[sthar8]

Those posts tell me nothing. I still don't see the read progression. I want clear, direct answers.

How did you go from "one of MS/ETL is scum" to "[No idea what your ETL read is]" and "Could compromise on MS"?

And I still don't know what's your stance on Ffery. Is she still pinging you? I don't even know what it was that was pinging.

I think those posts are pretty clear.

ETL- I'm concerned that because I have no solid scumreads the scum are in the strong players like ETL. Also, nobody pushed me for defending her over the wisdom thing, which miiiiight mean she's scum.

Sonic- I don't think he's scum with ETL. I think his claim was antitown, but def something he could do as town. His rampant and unapologetic buddying is making me consider compromising to a lynch on him.

pfierry- I'm concerned that because I have no solid scumreads the scum are in the strong players like ETL. Also, I feel like I should be pretty obvious town to anybody who was paying close attention to my initial series of posts, and they should have caught what I was doing. But I understand that pie is going to be inclined to scumread me no matter what after TM, so I understand their paranoia there.

All of that is already available in thread.

[sthar8]

What I was doing in the game with you is something different. I borrowed the tactic from Titus; she uses it to reach compromise with players with whom she is in conflict. You take turns asking each other questions, guaranteeing honest and complete answers. I've always been vaguely amused by how easy it is to manipulate from either side as scum.

when you use this strategy, are most of the questions you ask related to playstyle or how someone plays in general or is it primarily game-related content such as what people's reads were or what their reasoning is for doing certain things?

i'm asking because i don't really remember much in terms of us trying to reach a compromise that game; i thought you did it because you were (pretending to) take issue with my playstyle and wanted to know how i thought in general. which would seem to fit more with forming a profile of a player than reaching a compromise on something - and i don't remember anything you asked having to do with reads we disagreed on as opposed to knowing how i thought as a player.

Titus does it to cut through the bullshit and ego; you have to give a complete and honest answer if you expect one in return. That's the compromise, ignoring my fake issues with your playstyle in order to get you to engage with me. I was using it in TM to get you thinking about me in a theoretical sense rather than a practical one. I was manipulating you into thinking about what scum would be likely to do in my situation, rather than what I specifically had to gain from my actions as scum. I wanted you to approach me as a logic problem, so I posed you a bunch of theory questions.

i agree it makes no sense that kaboose would attempt to use meta in that way without bothering to look up what wisdom's alignment was first, but "makes no sense" doesn't scum make. it is just as likely that, for instance, he would have assumed wisdom was town in at least one of those games and failed to realize that this was not, in fact, the case. he didn't look it up because he was working under the assumption this was the case and thus didn't see a need to look it up first

it essentially amounts to the same thing: that he didn't realize wisdom was actually scum in all of their games together. and i think this is something that he wouldn't have realized regardless of what his alignment actually is, and i think he would have pushed wisdom was scum for it regardless of alignment as well

I think you're applying hindsight to this. Something that makes no sense but has advantage for scum is a good place to wagon on day1. I'm happy to admit that I was probably wrong, but I still think it was a good place to push.

he wants to confirm or deny kaboose's cop claim and so he fake claims daycop in order to see if kaboose's reaction was as strong as his reaction when he first claimed cop - the logic being scum would likely. i think that's a town thought process.

it essentially comes down to whether you think he faked it or not; i hold the opinion stuff like that is usually rather unlikely for people to think about faking

I'm sorry, that's not what I meant. You said that there was other individual things that made you feel like PV is town. What were they? I think the daycop is possibly just a joke based on the number of investigative or pseudoinvestigative claims we've had. It's also really not alignment indicative to be the second person to try a particular gambit in the same game.

[sthar8]

actually, no, I didn't remember that. Only when you brought it up and pointed it to me in organic chemistry then I remembered.

It's a good way to assess ego. I did it to firebringer in this game and you've seen me do it elsewhere recently.

Your response was actually pretty fantastic.


I'm not referring to buddying in the sense of you being nice to me or anyone else in the game you like. I know that's just you cause you're a good guy. I mean it in the sense of "agreeing with my pushes and reads, possibly to manipulate me into thinking you're town." Like voting PV for pushing me before I'd even decided that I wanted to, that was p scummy.

Jingle's p bitter about dating game btw. He says that his scumteam was basically a no-show, and that boo and frogger threw the game from an autowin by not following his instructions in the scum PT.

[sthar8]

You had leads. You said you thought one of MS/ETL was scum and that Ffery was pinging you. You went on with your life, came back and instead of pursuing those leads, you started profiling the slot you had described as "low-hanging fruit". You didn't even comment on those other players. Low hanging fruit denotes a player you think is likely to be town and to be picked on by scum, and you decide to pick on him instead of looking at the possible scum who were picking on him or at any of your other leads.

To summarize, you had reason and tools to scum-hunt and you didn't. You drew attention to a player you expect scum to push. I think that shows a scum mind set.

I was the last post in the conversation with ETL, and my strategy wrt sonic so far has been pretty clear. I needed animehydra to engage more before trying to get a good read on them, and I know pie at least is gonna post tons without provocation because she's got mastin dna somehow.

Figuring out how to effectively communicate with fire serves the purpose of confirming my townread on him and hopefully helping others like you and ETL do the same. If I can help him be obvious town, I can figure out who's pushing him simply because they thought he was an easy mislynch.

Further, I was not "picking on him." Where in all of that interaction with fire did I push any suspicion of him? How does "bringing attention to him" make him an easier lynch when I was explicitly townreading him?

[sthar8]

I think you're applying hindsight to this. Something that makes no sense but has advantage for scum is a good place to wagon on day1. I'm happy to admit that I was probably wrong, but I still think it was a good place to push.

no, i thought as much when it first happened, and i still think it was a poor reason for scum reading him. i think alignment regardless, he would have assumed he could push that "wisdom being different = scum wisdom" without needing to go back and check what his alignment was first. and i think it's very atypical for scum to lie about something like that, given it entirely has to do with how he plays (given enough games, i would expect you could go and find more cases similar to this where he made assumptions based around previous games without checking it first).

i fail to see why town-kaboose would necessarily *have* to check what wisdom's alignment was before pushing him, as you're insinuating here. i think you should know better than to push this kind of semantic issue on somebody without considering the possibility that he just remembered wrong or wasn't thinking correctly

Again, I didn't think that he lied and I wasn't pushing semantics. I think there is dissonance between being cognitively aware that you're not accurate at meta and choosing to use meta as your only evidence on a push. Either of those things alone would not have bothered me, regardless of accuracy.

Your argument here seems to be "some people just bullshit sometimes." And that's totally fine, but since bullshitting has a higher play value to scum, I am going to pressure and more closely examine the players that I find to be bullshitting.

[sthar8]

hohoho hohoho

I'll check out the scum pt

Considering that Titus and hermit almost throwed the game too, that was a tit for tat.

Jingle didn't actually post that much helpful stuff in scum pt for the frog

And he had irl issues how unlucky


Also I need to reread my "fantastic" responses gain because honestly, I forgot.

I haven't read it, but he suggested that he'd left a detailed kill list. Going off plan on something like that as a replacement is pretty questionable.

[sthar8]

that you're attempting to push that he should be aware that he's not fully accurate at meta, when in reality this expectation is unreasonable, is where my issue with it lies.

But that's a perfectly reasonable conclusion to draw, because he made a post where he announced that he is aware of his inaccuracy at meta...

[sthar8]

But that's a perfectly reasonable conclusion to draw, because he made a post where he announced that he is aware of his inaccuracy at meta...

was this before or after there were people telling him he shouldn't try to meta people if he couldn't remember what people's alignments in their previous games were?

if it's before, i might see your point

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p7130417

After wisdom announced that he'd been scum in every game, before kaboose came under serious pressure for it.

[sthar8]

somebody

ruined his gambit

[sthar8]

Sthar8. On the surface, I love what he's doing. I think it's incredibly diplomatic and definitely benefits the game in a town way. But I also know he's a crafty bastard and can easily mold a narrative to arrive at the conclusion he wants people to have. Objectively, his interaction with firebringer is pretty town. However, it's a bit of a hyperfocus and could be intended to allow him to avoid commentary elsewhere.

I've played very lots with sthar8 and I think he's scum.

reconcile this for me

Given how much time you and ETL are wasting trying to deal with him,

Ya know... I don't like this. You know very well how I operate, and how I respond to misplaced arrogance. No extra effort has been devoted to firebringer. In fact, I've done more towards trying NOT to blow up at him and focus on other players than I have towards responding to him.

I know, but he's still somehow a scumread of yours. I'm trying to solve that, because every post you make interacting with him is a post that's not forwarding the game. How do you not see that I'm trying to solve him so you don't have to?

A bunch of "wow PV your points here are really bad" ending with "and I somehow agree with the conclusion despite having presented no evidence towards it myself" is not helping my paranoia wrt you.

[sthar8]

I jumped on defending ETL from wisdom's attempted cheating. It's possible that the scumteam is oblivious enough to have not seen it, it is possible that ETL is scum and her team decided not to push something that implicated her, and it is possible that the scumteam didn't think they'd have enough traction from that to lynch me.

yeah that didn't happen sthar. where the heck did you defend me??

Okay I'm just going to say it because I will look stupid and probably suspicious pushing ETL like this if I don't. I should have replaced out, and I am sorry that I didn't, but too late now.

See this? I made it because I caught ETL reading and replying to a private topic since we started confirming for this game and onwards.

I have six PT's that ETL has access to. Some of them are for hydras, some of them are not game related at all. This is like scumreading someone for being online during the night phase.

Plus that's borderline cheating so how about we just play the game instead?

[sthar8]

VOTE: sthar

I'm 90% sure my role balances as negative utility for town. I crumbed cop in my first few posts to try getting shot tonight, but sonic fucked that plan which is why he needs to learn to not do that kind of shit unless he has a very good reason, if he's town.

I played a game with mollie right after the bad beats in faith plus one, and she lynched me over nothing. pie is doing the same thing here and between rl and the two big demotivating events in this game I'm having a hard time caring. I will say that pie's push feels a lot like mollie's, so they're probably town. ETL trying for the opportunistic scum-push on me without any reasoning looks really bad. PV's handling of the case is also really bad. Sonic's doing an obfustication/buddy routine that screams scum-carnival to me. That's where I'd look with night actions or tomorrow.

[sthar8]

that said, i'm not actually giving up on this game, and i'm not a bad enough player to be on my own wagon no matter how demoralized ETL is hoping I am.

UNVOTE:

I'm taking the kids out for a 12 year old's birthday party tonight and while I'm theoretically free to play mafia this weekend I'm probably not going to.

[sthar8]

@ AP- prooobably V/LA for the weekend.

[sthar8]

so lynch me

[sthar8]

That's not cool, sthar. Trying to guilt me out of a scumread that I explained pretty damn clearly.

you told me to self vote.

and i dont think you

have

explained that scumread. wanna give it a go?

[sthar8]

clearly

[sthar8]

do you feel like looking at literally any of the rebuttals to your shitcase that I provided?

p-edit @PV

[sthar8]

I'm giving out town points for those who vote Sthar

where's mine?

[sthar8]

crickets crickets crickets

[sthar8]

Ok, I was joking. Wanted kaboose's reaction since I was paranoid of him. Now I'm not. That reaction is pure town.

This made me raise an eyebrow. Looks kind of fabricated yo.

You pretty clearly criticized Snowstorm for me dealing with firebringer is weird

The most important thing to know about being in a hydra is to operate as a single entity, and that means taking responsibility for the things your partner has said/done. Hydra dissonance is a Bad Thing and a reason that there is so much resistance against hydra in mafia. Take it on the chin and move on, otherwise I'm going to assume that you're claiming dissonance as a way to shirk responsibility on the slot's actions.

[sthar8]

I'm giving out town points for those who vote Sthar

where's mine?

You partner should come get some of them plz

if i had a partner i'd give more fucks

[sthar8]

You're blatantly doing revisionist history here and I hate it.

this from the slot that told me i had no process in thread

then i quoted the process

and they said 'i can't be bothered to read all that'

[sthar8]

there are literally three players posting with a 'scumread' on me, and none of them are willing or able to justify it. there's a word for a wagon like this.

[sthar8]

And I'll let you decide my other head answer your weak ass rebuttals. I disagree with him using the words "picking on him". I think better words would be "deciding to interact with him so you can safely ignore you prior statement that there is one scum in Sonic/ETL".

I wasn't, though. I don't have to mention EVERY scumread in EVERY post, and the time that I was 'ignoring' my other reads was less than 12hrs IIRC.

You didn't want to lurk so you came and wasted time with firebringer, something I admit I have done, but I've gone after Sonic too(and yes, it's not fair that since I'm in a hydra I can be lazier than you and my slot would still do things. That's why I'm playing in a hydra)

But there's only two hydras allowed in the game so criticizing me for not being one is disingenuous and irrelevant! Hooray! Also I made more than 12 posts during the day where you theoretically had a problem with my activity. I am super spammy this game. If you feel like I'm lurking, you need to adjust your clearly insane expectations.

Do you think there is still scum in ETL/Sonic? If yes, why did you say you could compromise on Sonic but still pushed ETL?

I have answered this question in thread explicitly three times. If you can't be bothered to read my posts, I'm no longer willing to babysit you.

[sthar8]

I was town, in the Lying Cat hydra. Be aware that when I say I was more subtle in that game, I mean I was a dick to sonic and gauged his reactions (hey sonic, remember "I'd rather lobotomize myself with a dildo than read your meta?").

From this, I assume that your post to me here was a variation of this:

misrep

This word is the mark of a bad player. Please don't use it.

Did you learn anything from it from my (non) response? What did you think you would learn about my alignment if I had responded?

No, 'misrep' is actually just bad. It's a nonspecific term used to add connotation to a wide range of possible miscommunications, and it's a shortening of a shortcut for surface level shitty play. I legitimately hate that it's made it's way into the site lexicon, and I find that it's usually utilized by lazy players who don't know what they're talking about.

It's like saying 'very' in writing or 'feels' in conversation. You need to be more specific about method and intent.

[sthar8]

Btw sthar, why no vote in our direction? So you could use it for that trick with voting yourself and then unvoting that reads so fake?

Something else that I explicitly explained in a post.

I can't tell if snowbear is trying for the scummy fatigue play by making me repeat myself over and over, or if they just have shit reading comprehension.

[sthar8]

Wing, I'm sorry if you felt like that was me being a dick, but you'll note I'd pegged you as an alt after your first couple posts. I've already made my judgment wrt you and I decided that you are both proficient enough to not use that shitty word and mature enough to endure the blunt criticism.

[sthar8]

I personally have no problem with you doing thst, but you were only doing that and talking a bit about kaboose who was already PI. Not going after scum at all

Is PoE a valid way to play the game?

et's go again. You said ETL thought my points were really bad. For that you quoted somewhere where she thought I was fake(not having bad points there!) and some advice on being on a hydra(I did have a bad point there I agree). But it's still one and she agreed with our stances time and time again. Which you completly ignore. Why ignore that? It's for me clearly blantand revisionism. That I've just fact checked. Your time for fact checking

I am so done doing the legwork for you. Quote all the points of yours that ETL has agreed with.

Note to anyone watching: this is absolutely busywork because his whole point here is based on cherrypicking a clause out of a sentence and ignoring the context.

[sthar8]

Also how the fuck is a fake point not a bad point? That's ridiculous semantics.

[sthar8]

@ Sthar, have you ever self-voted before in frustration as either alignment?

i dont know and i don't have time to look rn

[sthar8]

Because if he did, I want to glance through the game to see what he's capable of under pressure and the circumstances around it.

I've got some good ones for this though. remind me when I get back. a couple i'm proud of, a couple i'm not proud of.

[sthar8]

catching up today

[sthar8]

Maybe next game I'll be innocent and get tge pleasure to mislynch you.

umm what

[sthar8]

I'm 90% sure my role balances as negative utility for town.

I crumbed cop in my first few posts

to try getting shot tonight, but sonic fucked that plan which is why he needs to learn to not do that kind of shit unless he has a very good reason, if he's town.

Could you point us to those crumbs?

Spoiler: Yeah man

This is me acknowledging that I choose not to RVS.

I don't need to this game.

C

an't sleep so we're doing this shit now.

O

nly six pages.

P

lease hold.

I don't believe you.

At some point I'll be conftown

and you'll still be voting me. Let's get it started already.

He'll get policy lynched or

otherwise sorted

at some point.

the back and forth between etl/wisdom in pages 2-3 are the most alignment indicative things that happened in this game

That's not true. I didn't RVS.

OK so this

little piggy has

townreads on the blue kid and the winged alt.

The market

piggy

is buying shares in snowplow companies, so I'd like to see the weather system stick around for a while. Particularly interested in ursine opinions.

The roast beef

piggy

wants snork to look into his big brown eyes and state his alignment, please.

The proletariat

piggy

calls for a redistribution of beef, and until that happens he says

ETL is off the table

.

And THIS little

piggy

wants to go wee wee wee all over the last train car (even though I still love him) and the blinky anime globe, maybe.

there are literally three players posting with a 'scumread' on me, and none of them are willing or able to justify it. there's a word for a wagon like this.

We have justified it. Whether you agree with our justification or not, that's a different thing.

You said that I was wasting time on fire rather than others in the thread, which was untrue given that I was talking to others and had changing opinions of them in the same 24hrs. I pointed out how much time bearbert was spending on fire to nudge you toward realizing that, assuming you're town,

you have evidence of town motivation to do that

. His reaction was to say 'nonono i'm subject to different standards because hydra.'

You said I wasn't scumhunting or progressing my reads in thread, and when I quoted the posts where I do exactly that, you said 'oh too many big words. i'm not reading that.'

You said I was lurking when by no definition of the term is this true. And then again bear broke out the hydra double standard.

You accused me of lying about ETL's stances toward you in discussion with her, when the only way to interpret my post as that is to shit on the very concept of context and then demand that it's family pay you for the pleasure.

Then when I started suspecting you because your push on me is bad and unjustified, you called it OMGUS because you 'were going to make a push on me but hadn't.'

As I've corrected you on facts and pointed out flaws in your theories, your response has been to ask the same questions repeatedly and ignore everything I say.

I'm not sure what universe you're from, but in this one that doesn't count as 'sufficiently justified'

Did I miss anything?

[sthar8]

Blacklist is for people who are butthurt and can't handle another player. Guess what? grow up. It's a game. If the player isn't breaking a rule, then shut up and play the game.

youthful idealism

[sthar8]

american slang

pig = cop

[sthar8]

Ack!

We're pretty well slammed this week with the convention and I slept 16 hours last night. Hopefully I'll have time at work to catch up.


Hey T! How's it going kiddo! You scum this game?

[sthar8]

Wisdom modkill seems rather harsh given that he was wrong.

he was fucking cheating.

[sthar8]

ANYWAY back to important things

[sthar8]

I don't have the time or inclination to make this huge, so y'all are gonna have to exercise your abilities at asking questions.

Currently, I'd be glad to lynch MS because his cop-gambit is the only town-motivated thing I've seen out of him, and that has been thoroughly devalued.

ETL was climbing pretty high on my suspect list, because the points she was pushing on me are completely disingenuous and ridiculous. The 'scum-gloating' comment was taken ridiculously out of context, and she kept making unsubstantiated meta arguments that I know she knows to be false. The crumbs I used to indicate being cop are ones that she should have recognized: I've used similar ones in games with her before and I know she looks for them because she has at least once and possibly twice made cases on me based on her perceiving crumbs that weren't actually there. If she had noticed the crumbs and treated them as real, it would have been a sign to me that she was town, and if she shot me over them my death would have been protown. Instead, she

pretended

to get them, then denied having seen them, and pushed a vague notcase based on crapmeta.

However, TSO's entry does not fit with that. It'll take me some time to read him accurately, but I really liked his entrance into the thread.

Pie is also high on my list. I ascribed my earlier issues with the slot to paranoia, which still could very well be the case. But pie and ffery are pushing an empty and bad case, sheeping etl's crap reasoning, and generally taking a backseat in this game. Even busy and unengaged pie should have a lot more teeth if she really thought I were scum.

PV's arguments against me have been almost totally ridiculous nonsequiturs. The push was a weak and terrible double standard in the first place, but if bearbert is scum he's convincingly faking his belief in an argument that is really laughable. I'm not comfortable lynching them right now.


I'm gonna skim through for things directed at me that I missed, but I might not have a ton of time today.

[sthar8]

He selfvoted at 9:31, and typed another post with the unvote which came at 9:33. I just think that if a competent town player decided to selfvote because they were so demoralised, they would have thought it through a little. Even if they then decided against it, they wouldn't make that decision in a minute. Maybe if it was coming from a rash player, I would feel better about it, but that's one trait I wouldn't attribute to him. The speed at which it came makes it feel a little too calculated.

It was a joke. ETL told me to selfvote.

I think normally town-sthar would be more aggressive with ETL. When I complain as town about a wagon on me I usually pick out one person, either for their awful vote or because I expect better of them. ETL fits the latter criteria pretty easily and I don't know why sthar didn't push her back when he was complaining about the wagon on him.

She's breaking up with her fiance.

Also note that I've done this with you before. I have literally said d1, "I don't want to think about reading T yet, let's leave him until tomorrow."

A lot of the things he's doing are extremely safe - "I don't want to sort ETL by d1 lynch" is kinda backing off ETL and a little incongruous given that I can't remember him townreading her once this game.

cop crumb.

[sthar8]

Sthar, what's your read on Sepai?

possibly scum.

i'd rather lynch sonic though

[sthar8]

do you have to pee? is that what this is?

[sthar8]

wingback is like a version of F-16 taking only the good, analytical stuff and throwing out all the abusive stuff

it's pretty refreshing to see

i agree

[sthar8]

do you have to pee? is that what this is?

Yep, no one let me out to the bathroom so I really got to go!!!!

I'm sorry, I don't speak dance. Could you try with flags or something?

[sthar8]

Am I the only one who isn't convinced Sthar8's crumbs make him town? There are two types of crumbs (letter crumbs where you spell out certain letters, and softclaims, where you hint that you have a specific role). In my experience, scum don't scan every sentence in a game to look for letter-crumbs but they'd most likely notice the soft-claims. Post 139 where he spells out C O P really doesn't make sense as a crumb town would use to trick scum because it is not of the type that scum would pick up on. On the other hand, if Sthar8 was scum, C O P seems like something he can easily point back to later if he chose to fake-claim cop. Alternatively, I could see him crumbing multiple different generic PRs (Post 34: "I don't need to this game", Post 150: "At some point I'll be conftown"). I'll read through some of his scum PTs to get a sense of the type of planner he is but I'm not dismissing this as beyond his capability.

I absolutely plant crumbs as scum, to save you some time.

The specific type of crumbs I planted here are the kind that ETL would expect me to plant; she's seen me do it before. So if she's town, she notes them and looks for play inconsistent with the crumb. If she's scum, she shoots me dead, which was the goal.

[sthar8]

what he's capable of under pressure and the circumstances around it.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p5512263- scum fakerage under pressure

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p5689996- town resignation under pressure

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p5892709- scum fake resignation under pressure

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p5944851- town real rage

[sthar8]

I again feel a little strange that sthar isn't voting MS. I think that scum-sthar would definitely be voting MS at this stage, but I also think that town-sthar would be doing the same. That he's not is weird and strange and makes me think I don't know his play as well as I think I do. I still prefer MS as a lynch though.

if i vote sonic kaboose will hammer. i'm waiting for pie's wall.

[sthar8]

VOTE: sonic

[sthar8]

Sthar is scum. Naked votes are scum

This makes me feel much better about sonic scum. This is not now, nor has it ever been, true.

BP is a common scumclaim.

[sthar8]

especially in this game

[sthar8]

@ Sthar8, who are your current scumreads?

anime globe. Beyond that I'm not sure. I have some lingering suspicion of TSO because of ETL, but I don't think he's scum with pieffery so I'm missing something. I'll get back to you on that one.

[sthar8]

Correct. Bulletproof is a common scum claim. Sthar was right that MS was lying about it, he just wasn't right on why.

I thought sonic was smarter than that. There was zero reason for him to lie about his role there as town.

[sthar8]

@ Sthar8, who are your current scumreads?

have some lingering suspicion of TSO because of ETL

With due respect, I think if ETL had been pushing you as scum, she would have done a better job. Her push basically fucking sucked. And ETL is a pretty good scumplayer. Beyond that, I'd like to think that you'd be dead if I hadn't stepped in, so I don't see the scum motivation in extending myself so strongly to lynch MS when I could just have watched you die under the guise of me not being caught up.

I don't think there was a better push to be made. And I don't actually think I would have been lynched yesterday, but your efforts to that end are making me townread you.

I want to lynch pie, but I'm really having a hard time giving a shit about this game.

How do you feel?

[sthar8]

<3 kiddo

VOTE: sekai

hydra dissonance, BoP, stretching for townpoints. I think ffery and pie both play a better towngame than this.

[sthar8]

There's another aspect here though. Within minutes of voting me, Sthar8 was at L-2. Unless he dropped a vote and went offline, that should have been an issue of major concern. Particularly if he's town.

What does that tell you?

That (if he was here) being lynched today isn't game-over level of oh hell no.

1. you're predicating a reason for scumreading me on the assumption that I was hanging out in thread waiting to see what the next few posts were in a game that's moving at a glacial pace.
2. My biggest scumread was on my wagon and it's MYLO. I don't think you CAN quickhammer me, and if I'm wrong and you're town we're probably losing this game anyway.
3. Even if we're gonna lose, I'm having a hard time caring. Which I've been explicit about before. The person who asked me to play replaced out, wisdom tried to cheat and handicapped us, and sonic fucked up his claim. I'm still trying to hang on for TSO and because I don't replace out, but I'm emotionally pretty checked out.

TSO, message me if you need to talk. Seriously.

[sthar8]

hydra dissonance, BoP, stretching for townpoints. I think ffery

and pie

both play a better towngame than this.

lololol at the bolded given he spent a majority of the game i had with him complaining about my play style and the way i strongarm lynches. granted, he was scum there, but i don't think he would have spent the whole game commenting on it if it's not something he thought he would have at least slightly believed as town.

(alternatively, if sthar wants to correct me on this, i could use any kind of ego boost i can get)

christ pie, have you ever played scum before? You railroaded mala's lynch in a way I couldn't interact with. I needed you to keep doing that on town while viewing me as an incompetent. Criticizing you as you were wrong gave me a reason to not scumhunt, gave you a reason to believe my reaction to mala's wagon was legitimate, and kept you thinking about me emotionally rather than critically.

I cannot believe you played a whole scumgame with me and don't think I'm capable of telling a lie. I cannot believe you would look for honest opinions in posting with a clear agenda that was contrary to in-thread evidence. I cannot believe that either of you would waste this much time on making sure everyone in thread knows how incredibly accurate your MS read was despite it being entirely irrelevant for today and a good example of him misplaying his role catastrophically.

Even lazy, not reading pie and super busy with other things ffery should be able to see that a sthar-ETL scumteam is extremely unlikely given the in-thread evidence. And you'd have to be high to miss that TSO's play makes that border on the impossible.

[sthar8]

It's mylo. Sthar already has s vote on him. Probably two. If we vote him, we end day. Why should we do that with no claim? T

I already claimed that my role is negative utility for town. Nobody has picked up on the implications of that with two flipped investigatives.

Evidence suggests there's nobody here who is willing/competent enough to do the balance theory that requires other than myself, so what's the point of being more specific?

[sthar8]

It's mylo. Sthar already has s vote on him. Probably two. If we vote him, we end day. Why should we do that with no claim? T

I already claimed that my role is negative utility for town. Nobody has picked up on the implications of that with two flipped investigatives.

Evidence suggests there's nobody here who is willing/competent enough to do the balance theory that requires other than myself, so what's the point of being more specific?

Claiming miller? But that wouldn't be affected by the tracker at least

relevant evidence for my assertion.

[sthar8]

I mean, as far as I'm concerned one of fire and sekai is guaranteed scum.

do you really think this shitcase comes from either of ffery or pie as town?

[sthar8]

Spoiler: outside of game

I'm still trying to hang on for TSO and because I don't replace out, but I'm emotionally pretty checked out.

Please don't do this for me. Seriously. You don't have to. I mean that.

I have replaced out twice ever in 7 years. I can endure a shitty MYLO.

TSO, message me if you need to talk. Seriously.

I will. But - and I mean this completely seriously - you have it far worse than I do. Mine is both momentary and rare. It's incredibly mild.

All pain is temporary. That doesn't mean talking about it can't be helpful.

[sthar8]

I mean, as far as I'm concerned one of fire and sekai is guaranteed scum.

do you really think this shitcase comes from either of ffery or pie as town?

I like how you speak so authoritatively about someone you're playing your first game with.

Are you high? We talked about this

in this thread

. I've seen your towngame in the last AP large, which spanned months and was easily more draining than this game. And pie played in TM against me.

[sthar8]

illustrative purposes

i was gonna quote fferypie's 'case' on me, but i've got too much stuff do do. maybe later.

[sthar8]

I mean, as far as I'm concerned one of fire and sekai is guaranteed scum.

do you really think this shitcase comes from either of ffery or pie as town?

I like how you speak so authoritatively about someone you're playing your first game with.

Are you high? We talked about this

in this thread

. I've seen your towngame in the last AP large, which spanned months and was easily more draining than this game. And pie played in TM against me.

You're right. I did forget about that game. Didn't you say you were mostly absent there?

from the thread, yes. doesn't mean i didn't read the game.

[sthar8]

If he's town, then he's never really given any consideration to why we might be town and wrong rather than scum.

this is a fucking lie.

[sthar8]

VOTE: no lynch

all the townies in this game should be embarrassed.

This is one of the most transparent, obvious town games I've ever played.

My claimed role is obviously the one I've been playing and obviously balances to town.

There is no case on me in thread, despite multiple promises to that effect.

I can't even tell you which of the people on my wagon are scum, because there is no valid suspicion of me expressed. This town is so bad that I cannot distinguish it's rampant anti-town behavior from pro-scum behavior.

If you lynch me, we lose. If we no-lynch, we lose an unconfirmed townie. It is unlikely that we have any further investigative roles, but that doesn't mean that nobody has a relevant night action.

fferypie, despite having suspicion just about everywhere, for some reason don't want to take the no-lynch safe play.

[sthar8]

see the thing is

i don't think anybody agrees on who the nightkill would be

because the scum are heavily outclassing whichever of you are town.

which supports pperie being scum.

Who are you going to lynch after me PV?

[sthar8]

how endearingly stupid.

[sthar8]

I'm sorry, do you know what an ad hominem is?

[sthar8]

I had to address that mangling of terminology first, because there's no point reiterating things I've already said in the thread if his reading comprehension is that poor.

[sthar8]

my top pick for scum is sekai. From my POV, at least one of sekai, firebringer is guaranteed scum because I haven't been quickhammered.

After that, I'm not sure. TSO is probably town, and I want to believe wingback is. If Firebringer is scum, the vote on me was catastrophically stupid but I don't know that he'd understand that. PV has also not pushed a single salient argument the whole game, but I got mild townvibes from that slot yesterday.

[sthar8]

My claim is 'negative town utility.' More information than that is not protown unless we massclaim and try to break night actions.

Double investigative should imply heavily that there is a town negative to balance it.

[sthar8]

Honestly you can't quick hammer with only one more vote. If Sekia is scum and you aren't, that only leaves one extra scum vote.

Unless you are saying we are both scum.

I don't know how you not being hammered proves you aren't scum. If you were at 3 votes for long time and said that 2 out of 3 were scum, I could maybe see that. I don't right now, everyone is hesitant to lynch you.

You know who honestly is more hesitant to lynch their allies? Scum.

They see enough people wanting to go with No Lynch hell they would jump on it as a conveniance. I said No Lynch at beginning. Most of you were against it, but now when pressure is on sthar8 almost all of you change your tune?

WAY TO CONVENIENT.
If anything I am convinced that you and Wingback or TSO are scum.

I'm saying you can't both be scum, you idiot.

[sthar8]

Full claim now. I don't care about you reiterating points. We get that you're some kind of negativd utility that apparently didn't bother claiming first thing, but softclaimed cop so you'd appear town when you reveal it.

want in one hand, shit in the other. see which fills up first.

[sthar8]

I'm sorry, do you know what an ad hominem is?

Yes. At no point did you attack the points raised, but just degenerated into "obviously these people are so stupid".

NO POINTS HAVE BEEN RAISED. I SAID IT WAS STUPID OF YOU TO IGNORE MY QUESTION WITH A CUTESY SHIT RESPONSE, SINCE YOU ANSWERING CANNOT HELP SCUM AT ALL.

[sthar8]

also why the fuck am i required to tell you who I think are scum, but PV can just ignore that question?

[sthar8]

that is horrifically anti-town. and the difference between that response and mine should be telling.

[sthar8]

that PBPA is crap and I think you understand why it's crap.

Let's see a case.

[sthar8]

i mean, you're not new. You know that pbpa is useless as an analytic tool.

[sthar8]

Good job scum, you did great.

AP, did you report the wisdom thing to the listmods?

[sthar8]

Oh also I had a huge post that got erased by the threadlock. That was upsetting.

[sthar8]

analysis is apparently a dead art.

Not like I didn't get distracted by shitty pushes.

But all three scum did a fantastic job. They deserve the win.

[sthar8]

wisdom was cheating. nothing about what he did was 'right.'

[sthar8]

yeah man, you killed it this game.

Why didn't you claim tracker?

[sthar8]

but that assumes there are no protective roles in the setup. also we had another investigative claim. scum are less concerned about a tracker, and your role was verifiable. worst case, we lynch someone else, maybe hit scum, and you die at night, confirming your claim. best case, scum tries to shoot you, you get protected. you're now conftown and scum is down a nk.

[sthar8]

in a setup where almost everyone has a targeting action tracker is not OP, and jailkeeping you would likely have been better utility than getting your result.

the benefit to confirming you through the nightkill is that town gets to use the lynch we wasted on you. we narrow the pool and have a better shot at lynching.

[sthar8]

honestly you would have done more good to the town just using your role as IC. Your reads were really good and investigatives are the easiest to confirm through setup knowledge.

p-edit bulletproof is literally only a good claim for scum. town bulletproof has zero incentive to claim truthfully, so scum know it's a lie or at best WIFOM. Scum get utility out of a BP claim because it explains them living when they shouldn't and it's unlikely to be countered.

[sthar8]

right. and there was no way that should fool scum. so doing it to protect yourself was silly. i didn't believe that was your plan because you should know it has like a 2% chance of working. It was much more likely that we had a protective in the setup than that scum would believe a claim that town has no incentive to make

[sthar8]

if you were lynching me for a bp claim, what makes me think that a tracker claim is better? would people magically avoid my wagon because i claimed tracker instead of bp? which was my plan that i was crumbing all game? lmfao

YES! I would have unvoted immediately! Remember when you claimed cop and I was like "ok sonic is off the table for today?" Scum has incentive to claim BP. Town NEVER has incentive to claim BP outside of massclaim to break the game. I thought you knew that! Town bulletproof should never crumb bulletproof, because

you don't want the scum to know that

. So by crumbing then claiming bulletproof, you just announce to the scum "hey for some reason I don't want to die tonight." Scum, however, have tons of incentive to claim BP,

which is why BP is almost always a scumclaim

.

[sthar8]

i claimed at l-1 dude

yes, you claimed scum. Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing you. Your reads were amazing this game other than that naked vote comment, and you really were obvtown. My only paranoia on you came from your claim shenanigans and the knowledge that the scum were among the proficient players.

[sthar8]

i claimed at l-1 dude

yes, you claimed scum. Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing you. Your reads were amazing this game other than that naked vote comment, and you really were obvtown. My only paranoia on you came from your claim shenanigans and the knowledge that the scum were among the proficient players.

mate, you voted me before i claimed. there was

no

reason to do that before i claimed. so your argument only stands for why you "didnt unvote" rather than you did

Yeah voting you was a pure compromise. Wisdom being a cheater killed my motivation and made me want to never lynch ETL despite her case on me being obviously scummy from my POV. Fire's theory response made perfect sense from town as soon as i figured out how old he is. PV pinged me for a bit but there was no internal dissonance on his push on me despite the double standards. Ffery and pie had an understandable amount of paranoia on me. Wingback did a fantastic job of faking a process, and your willingness to cooperate was super town.

[sthar8]

pfft whatever. the day2 lynch was one of the worst things i have ever seen in my entire history on this site.

i didnt have any good reads on day 1. that happens sometimes and i'm not going to apologize for it, especially given that i would have backed off given a truthful claim.

[sthar8]

I'm sorry about what I did, I am not a cheater and I hate cheating and unfairness in general, so seeing people call me a cheater is the last thing I want to see. Yes, I should have replaced out, and I

have

replaced out of games in similar occasions in the past. Something about the game having just started as well it being my only game at the time blinded me. I don't know what I expected to happen, I certainly wouldn't be able to keep pushing ETL without revealing the reason no matter how much of a notorious tunneler I am, so I don't have any excuse. I am aware that this ruined the game, so again, sorry to both the mod and the players.

No see, you

are

a cheater, because you cheated.

You 1) accessed privileged information that you weren't supposed to have and 2) attempted to use it to gain unfair advantage. That is cheating, and it's somewhat appalling that you haven't been given a tempban. Your protestations that what you did shouldn't count as cheating serve only to display a lack of contrition and a clear attitude that your personal gain supersedes ethics.

Don't ever join a game with me again.

[sthar8]

srs question. is our avatar annoying/offputting?

no. i like it.

[sthar8]

It would be cheating if I had continued playing without explaining the problem. Sure, I didn't handle it correctly, but I never cheated.

You cheated the moment you posted in thread intending to gain advantage from the information.

If you sign up for the same game under two accounts, you are cheating whether you get caught before the game started or not.

If you take someone's wallet without permission, you are stealing whether or not there happens to be cash inside.

You admitted to intending to use outside information to gain an unfair advantage. The actions you took caused damage to the gamestate and the enjoyment of the other players and the mod. Turning yourself in mid-cheat does not in any way mitigate that.

Your ego is preventing you from using any sane definition of cheating, and that confirms that you've learned nothing from your ethical failure.

[sthar8]

sthar did this too, but then he was town -.-

because literally my only hope at winning the game was drawing it out until somebody realized how bad the wagon on me was.

[sthar8]

I don't think that you *intended* to cheat.

he admitted to intending to cheat.

maybe he should have thought about how it would make him feel to be labelled a cheater before he cheated.

[sthar8]

So from what I can tell, Wisdom

found the scum on D1, but everyone kinda felt guilty about it and let them win?

intentionally gained unfair information, then beat himself off with some truly incredible delusions about how he's a special little flower and he

intended

to cheat and

attempted

to cheat and

gained advantage

from cheating, but since he let everyone know about it clearly it doesn't

count

as cheating and actually he's the hero we all deserve. Then the listmods failed to issue a tempban because question marks. Then we all learned a valuable lesson about drunk driving or some shit.

FTFY

[sthar8]

intentionally gained unfair information

you lost the point there

No, you lost your integrity and ethical high ground there.

[sthar8]

"its ok to cheat as long as people aren't mad at you for it"
-Wisdom, 2015

[sthar8]

I can't just overlook it. She is not in any other games, and she was alternating reading this thread and posting in a PT.

Yes, it's cheating

, and this is why I reported it so it stops happening.

[sthar8]

"It would be cheating if anyone other than myself did it"
-Wisdom, 2015

[sthar8]

That you then used to advantage in the game. Please explain the difference.

[sthar8]

"Cheating is called something different when I do it"
-Wisdom, 2015

[sthar8]

You played without mentioning it. You voted, without mentioning it. You compromised the game, because you chose not to mention it in order to gain an advantage.