Open 612 - Bad Poets Society - Game Over - Town Win

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Ika

[Varsoon]

VOTE: The Fire Hermit

Hello guys.

The Fire Hermit,

Innocent Child

[Varsoon]

hi ppl what have i missed?

[Varsoon]

@Mod: Could you edit the first post so that it is clear which accounts are publicly playing in hydras?

Doing that now.

And done

[Varsoon]

@Taly: I've been fairly busy. Don't like my images? That makes me sad. I'll stop posting them for now, I guess.

@FireHermit: What makes you say that about GM?

[Varsoon]

I really don't have much to add, sadly.
If folks have questions for me, I'm around. I don't really know how to respond to Trivium's response to the IC pressure.

[Varsoon]

@Trivium: ...because people have been talking to me directly about it? I've been busy and people had stuff to say on it, and now I have more free time but I don't have much to add.

[Varsoon]

Well shit. Can I still type a bit in there or is it image only?

[Varsoon]

[Varsoon]

Can someone explain the Errant wagon to me?

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Trivium
Playing Follow-the-IC has never failed.
I also just kinda wanna vote Trivium here 'cus I'm not crazy about the alternative.

[Varsoon]

I'm not gonna magically look like I care more 'cus you squeeze me.
Trivium seems scummy to me. I can't articulate it well.
The IC is voting there. That's a good thing in my mind.
If Trivium flips scum, that likely means the IC will be under fire, which (cough) is also a good thing in my mind.
I think you guys are town, for what is is worth. I also think your suspicion of me is well-founded, so I can't really squash that beef.
I usually get so invested and frustrated and post way too much in my games, especially as town but really as either align.
I'm trying a much more laidback approach this game.
Y'know, chill with it and deal with it.

Ideally, people think I am a cool guy.

[Varsoon]

A lot of ICs phone it in an duck out and never raise pulses. They play a painfully shit IC game and never catch a night-kill unless Scum feels pressured due to confirmed-townies or whatever.
I like our IC's approach so far, because it feels like it could be threatening to scum. If the IC makes it through the night, I'll be able to make some good connections about who scum may be, but if they don't make it, I'll be well off as well because that likely means scum saw less value in making the kill there. Gotta consider the angles.

@Trivium: Sorry I suck? I'm not going to even pretend like I wanna make a case on you.
You seem scummy to me. I'm voting you. Not everything is part of a ruse cruise, y'know?

[Varsoon]

What happened was that people decided Trivium and Brunneis were scummy and that the Errant wagon was probably going too fast.

I'm not a huge fan of it.

[Varsoon]

Not sure how to handle the reachout to me, Klingon/Brunneis.

I have a lot of experience with you but I typically don't rely on meta and I can't say I'm confident in reading you based on experience alone.

[Varsoon]

Ika's not throwing up any red flags for me yet.
It's been awhile since I've played with Taly, so, again, I'm not confident there.
Sorry, don't really have much to sink my fangs into.

I feel like Ranger's recent post is on-point.
I'd say that we lynch between those three for sure, sure.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Brunneis

You wouldn't take the path of least resistance as town.
At least, I don't think so.

Ika wagon is also worthwhile and I'd support it, but more for pressure reasons, like, get your head in the game son.

Votecount?

[Varsoon]

Hey, Brunni, Klingon, whoever's there.
Less frustration, more reads and direction.
If you're going up in flame, I'd at least like something to work with post-flip.
UNVOTE: because I don't really want the day to end in a Brunnies lynch right now.

As for path of least resistance;
I mean that you seem to be reading other players and interacting with people in a way that doesn't cause too much conflict. Maybe I'm wrong, but it feels like the only buttons you're pushing in are on Saint for his playstyle. I also don't like that you're willing to compromise from Trivium to my wagon, not so much due to OMGUS, but because it comes awkwardly after Errant supporting my wagon and because I was one of the more diligent supporters of the Trivium wagon.

[Varsoon]

Just in case that unvote isn't legal
UNVOTE:

[Varsoon]

I'm not quite sure what you're asking.

[Varsoon]

@Varsoon who are your top scum reads atm?

VOTE: Trivium
That one.
After that, I'm not a big fan of a lot of players, but I don't feel too passionately to push anywhere.
Maybe Vedith or Ika?


@Errant: I think it was a gut reaction to your vote on me for inconsistency coupled with how a few other players fled your wagon early. Actually, given how your wagon was handled and given your input on/around page 13, I like you for town a lot more in reconsideration.

[Varsoon]

Oh man, my timeline on this game totes sucks.
I think I wasn't wow'd by your content after your wagon died down. I felt like you were coasting out. I don't think that's the case anymore.
I wasn't crazy about the names the joined your wagon and then left it. The way it was quickly built up and abandoned makes me feel like it was more likely scum-lead than not. However, I've been scum where an early bus is made then cast off in a similar fashion and the wagon feels 'arbitrary'. Like, I don't think you came out and did anything to dispel your wagon. I'm still scratching my head over why it was dismantled.

I think you're town, but there's a lot of red flags and weird shit surrounding how your wagon sprang up and went away without any real contest.
I might be remembering this wrong, but that's what it seemed like to me.
I should probably take game notes.

[Varsoon]

Yeah me too, I'd also be cool with a Varsoon lynch if Brunneis doesn't go through.

...dicks.

[Varsoon]

That's not a fair point at all.
If you're like, "Hey, bro, that sure was scummy!"
And he's all "Yup! Everything I say is scummy!"
You do not go "Oh, okay, free pass."

[Varsoon]

Reads from Trivium would be nice.

[Varsoon]

GM shouldn't be dead.
I'm making all sorts of angry faces right now.

You're not dead, Hermit, because you're not helping town enough.
Catch scum and you'll be sure to catch a bullet.

[Varsoon]

Fuck it.
You guys solve the setup.
Here's what I know we have:
1-Shot Cop (GM, dead)
Doctor (Me)
Serial Killer (Two kills were made)
Scum Roleblocker (I protected GM last night, the protect was blocked because GM is dead--you can only have a Serial Killer in this setup with a scum roleblocker or more T rolls than are allowed given what we have already.)
Innocent Child (FireHermit)

So it is at least
CDMT

Although I am hedging my bets that it is
CCDMTTT

Regardless, I am dead tonight.
There's no use in the other town role claiming because scum has a roleblocker and there are two kills.

[Varsoon]

Oh, we'd have to have CCC for a 1-shot cop and another cop, so my revised guess is
CCCDMT?

Although it could easily be
CDMTTT?

Regardless, there's likely a single other non-exposed town PR and we can say definitively that scum has a roleblocker.

[Varsoon]

Either we've got a full-on cop (whom I suspect I know the identity of) and another role AND scum has a godfather (fucking terrible, ruined game, etc).
Or we've just got another role.

[Varsoon]

Regardless, this means that the mystery town power-role is the sole person who actually knows the whole setup.
If they claim and are not counterclaimed, this makes them confirmed town.
I am also confirmed town.
FireHermit is confirmed town.

This should be easy.

If we have another cop in the setup, that means both our cop and our other role could claim, giving us
4 confirmed town independent of the cop results.

If we can't win with that, you should all hang your heads in shame.

[Varsoon]

We can either have upwards of five confirmed townies right now, with a minimum of three, or we could have just the one.
Your call.

[Varsoon]

I do not think the utility of keeping our roles hidden will do anything better than having literally confirmed town because of the setup.

[Varsoon]

You do realize that this is an Open setup with clear-cut rules, right?
Only certain claims can exist.
Fake-claiming is NOT an option, because a mass claim will out the fake-claimer.
I was softing doctor, which is why I believe Ranger thought I was town.
Also, I'm playing pretty straight-faced town here.

Take it or leave it.

[Varsoon]

We have CMD.
I could be wrong and that kill could be from a vig rather than an SK, which I did not calc for.
So we could have
CMDV???
or
CMDT??? (with one ? not being a T because you can only have serial killer in T or TTT given the other letters we know we have)
to account for me being doctor, GM being one-shot cop, and FireHermit being an innochild.
That only leaves three letters left.

So, again, we're in a situation with anywhere from 3 to 5 confirmed town on a mass claim.
So I'm not wrong.

[Varsoon]

But there has to be a roleblocker, so scum either has T or TTT or town has at least one B.
Ayo.

[Varsoon]

The only issue I could see with a mass-claim is that while we do gain an extra 'confirmed' townie from it and it legitimizes me as confirmed as well,
If scum has a roleblocker, they could claim to be a town roleblocker and maaaybe get away with it,
So we would essentially have to power lynch any B claims that make it to lylo.

[Varsoon]

I don't like PoE in closed setups.
Pay some damn attention.
We have an open setup.
This allows us to actually mass-claim and actually confirm our roles via the setup.
I hate PoE in closed setups because that is not something you can do, and as mods get more and more inventive with roles, claiming/PoE in closed setups becomes increasingly more problematic or town.

[Varsoon]

for town*.

VOTE: Ika
I don't like how resistant you're being here.

[Varsoon]

Even if we have a B, we STILL have either
CMDV
or
CMDT

So, I don't understand what the hell you're on about.

[Varsoon]

The good stuff.

The setup design is known.

Publically, we know that there is
1-Shot Cop (C)
Inno Child (M)
2 Kills (V or T)

I have claimed Doctor, and that I targeted GM, but the kill didn't go through, so I know but we can assume
Doctor (D)
Roleblocker (Less than TTTTT and/or B)

So this means, if we proceed on my claim,
CMDT or CMDV is confirmed.
This means we have three variable letters,
Which means we should mass claim.

Then we win.

I could give less of a shit what you do or how you feel about me, as I am dead in the water tonight for claiming doc.

[Varsoon]

What I'm saying is that we either have a town vigilante who can confirm themselves against other claims
or we have a SK setup which means there is either T or TTT and, ergo, at least one other town PR who can confirm themselves as town against the other claims.

[Varsoon]

Regardless, we have, at minimum, in the case of a mass-claim, three town confirmed players.

[Varsoon]

disagree on the setup your speccing right now

well i know your wrong varsoon cus we are the last PR in the setup right now.

your running under the assumption we have no B to begin with

hey varsoon remmeber how you dislike POE, did you knwo what your doing right now is a way of POE?

Feels like resistance to me.
Usually, when someone disagree with what I am doing, says I am wrong, says I am running under assumptions (I brought up the B before that post, too), and calls out that I have a meta point contrary to how I am currently playing, I see that as someone standing against my play.

[Varsoon]

UNVOTE:

Regardless.
We should mass claim and move forward from there,
Unless you cucks want to shoot town in the foot and lynch me or something equally stupid.

What am I doing wrong?
I know for a fact that I am doctor.
I know for a fact that we have CMD in the setup given the flips and my role PM.
Since there were two kills, I know for a fact that there is a second kill either by Vig or SK.
Since my protection did not work, I know for a fact that there is a roleblocker in the setup, represented by either a B or T value less than 5.

P-EDIT:
Scum/SK would be stupid not to kill me.
Yes, they could RB me, and they likely will, but by killing me, they free up their RB to fire elsewhere if the RB is scum-oriented.
If the RB is town-oriented, they won't hit me, but scum/SK still has a high chance of hitting me.
I am essentially confirmed town at this point AND a doctor, so yeaaaaaaaaa I'm deader than a doornail

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Brunneis

Holy shit please read the setup.
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=C9%2B%2B

Rolecop IS NOT EVEN a possible role. EVEN POST 2 DOES NOT INCLUDE ROLECOP AS A POSSIBLE ROLE.
We could easily have DD or even DDD, so a counterclaim of doc

would not even invalidate my claim

.
If you knew the setup instead of spouting bullshit, you would know that my claim lets us confirm myself and at least one other person as town if we mass claim right the fuck now.

I am still reeling over this.
How do you sign up for a goddamn

OPEN

game and NOT read the setup notes?
How

dare

you give Firehermit a goddamn high-five for claiming we don't know the fucking setup when the entire fucking thing is posted in post 2?

I hope to the heavens you understand what OPEN setup means, and I hope you aren't this dense.
I understand that I have a history of gambiting hard with claims--in

closed

setup games.
You can

not

gambit hard with claims until lategame in OPEN setups because counterclaims ensure you or the person you are setting up are dead. It becomes an all-or-nothing strategy. If you're going to get paranoid because of my scum-game, at least understand that I am capable of that sort of scum-game because I understand how games work. Maybe read up how I play in different types of games, too? If I can strong-arm that hard as scum, what makes you rationalize that I can not do that as town?
I've played a C9++ setup at least once before, and in that game I was scum, and I realized exactly how strong a massclaim destroys scum in this setup.

You're in an OPEN setup.

Read.

The.

Fucking.

Setup.

[Varsoon]

And, yes, I am voting you and I do think you should be lynched.
The reason why is not just because you don't know the setup in an open game (and I know you have enough experience with Mafia to know better than this), but;
You're voting me and going because I'm claiming and saying things you don't understand.
Rather than asking me to elaborate what things like CDMT are, you are voting me and scumreading me.
The rational town response, when confronted with confusing information, would be inquiry.
It's scummy to vote someone because you don't understand them.
It's anti-town to neglect reading the open setup and then vote a player rather than asking them what they are talking about when it comes to the setup.
You're playing from a strongly scum perspective--not just here, but yesterday given the lynch.

That's why I am voting for you.

[Varsoon]

Brunneis.
Unvote me and read the actual setup.
It's scummy to not read the setup and vote a claiming player because you do not understand the setup.
Of course I am more active. I am a fucking doctor. I wanted to lay low D1. I now have very valuable info to share with town. That's why I am now more vocal.
The whole point of 534 is to establish exactly why I am voting you--the way you are voting for me and responding to my claim and posts is scum-oriented.
It isn't just that you have not read the setup or do not understand it, it's that you're willing to vote and choke down another player rather than educating yourself.

[Varsoon]

Your bolded question to everyone is evasive as fuck, bro.
You're squirming.
Keep your posts short. Keep them concise and simple and straightforward.

Read the setup.

The fact you still have not read the setup is clear from you still scratching your head over why I would claim that I was a doctor who has been roleblocked.

If the roleblocker in this setup is town, please claim right now. I will protect you tonight, so you will not die.

If the extra kill in this setup is town (vigilante), please claim right now. I will protect you tonight, so you will not die.

No matter what, I am dying tonight. Scum/SK have no reason not to target me, especially since they, hopefully, understand how strong claiming is for town in this setup.

Brunneis, your comments about me fake-claiming in other

CLOSED

setups have no weight here, because this is an

OPEN

setup. Please read the setup. If you do read the setup and still have questions about my claim, why I claimed, and why a mass-claim needs to happen today, I will answer them.

The other benefit of a mass-claim is that it will help to prove my claim. So there's that, too. Scum's only real leeway is depended on the existence of an SK/Vig, but our flipped and known roles confirm that scum can't have a T value more than 3 (iirc), so scum is limited already in what they can fake claim. Scum's fakes in C9++ are limited by how many Ts they have and only allow for a roleblocker fake claim.

So, if you think I'm faking the doctor claim and you're voting me over that, you're pushing someone who's claim can be disproven by a massclaim right now. So, if anything, you should not be resistant to a mass claim unless you are scum, because it will lower the mislynch pool by confirming both me and at least one other player as town.

Ignorance is not scummy. Pushing a shit vote on a claimed doctor because you still haven't read the setup after signing up for an

OPEN SETUP

even after being reminded several times to

READ THE FUCKING SETUP

is incredibly scummy. The way you are going about this push while trying to address every possible angle, while flailing to ask bolded hypotheticals that divert attention (LOL WHO IS MY SCUMTEAM THEN GUYSSS) is scummy as shit.

VOTE: Brunnies
IF you are town, never join an open again without reading a setup and never go in half-cocked against someone when you haven't even fucking read the setup.

[Varsoon]

We're currently in what is either a 6-3-1 or a 7-3 town-to-scum-to-SK ratio.
With Firehermit as confirmed town, this allows for a pool of 9 for lynch, with only 5/6 townies in that pool.
With myself and the 1 minimum other confirmed townie who can confirm town on a mass claim, our pool shrinks to 7 for lynch, with only 3/4 chance of hitting town.
With two kills out per night, our chances of losing the game after N3 (with SK) and N4 (with Vig) are very high if we do not lynch or kill scum.
This is an issue.
We should mass-claim, as it will maximize our potential as town.
If you do not want to mass-claim, I will just stop posting altogether until I get killed tonight.
Because fuck you.

[Varsoon]

UNVOTE:

@Brunnies:

Spoiler:

Apologies if I was coming in strong on you. I do not have patience for people who are literally wrong and unwilling to budge from being literally wrong.
When your slot returned to the game with a vote on me, wondering why I was claiming and suggesting there could be an impossible role in the setup, it made me very upset. Part of playing Open games means reading the setup. This would be like playing chess, acting like your pawns can move across the whole board in one move, and then getting offensive/upset when I insist a pawn can only move in certain ways.
I play games assuming that all players have read and understand the rules.
You showed that you had not read the rules and, furthermore, were willing to vote for me and call me out for proceeding with a strategy borne of the rules.
I see that as scum-oriented play.
I don't mind if your post longer posts, but please try to keep it thin for me. I am in a ton of games, modding, training for a job, and balancing a ton of social responsibilities. I simply do not have the time to spend typing posts as long as this one or even reading them.

As for your 'dodging' with the bolded question about who your scum-mates should be, I still think it's an irreverent question to ask that distracts from your own scumminess. You defend the question talking about trying to draw 'relational' tells from the flips in the game, but all our flips are on town that point towards you likely being scum. Sending us on a wild goose chase to find hypothetical scum partners is an open invitation to do everything but wagon you. I only need to catch one scum to lynch one scum. I don't need to nab a whole fucking team to make a single lynch. I don't understand why you thought it was important to bold and size-up such a bad question directed at all of the game.

I'm unvoting because I want the mass claim to go through and I want more discussion before a lynch hits.
We've likely only got two or three mislynches left in us.
We can't afford to fuck up.

[Varsoon]

Hey, yo, I'm still fine with the Brunnies lynch.
I just want the massclaim first so I make sure it's not a dumb idea.

[Varsoon]

Can someone please gather up all these claims in one place?
I want to actually figure out the setup rather than fling poop.

[Varsoon]

@Ranger: We could have a Vig or a town roleblocker still. Don't be quick to assume SK/Scum Roleblocker. Not until every claim is on the table.
And Every claim needs to be on the table. There's no reason to dance around this now.

[Varsoon]

Brunneis is using a very smart and calculated mafia move. She is townreading Makara close to a lynch. We are so used to this happening when flipped scum wanted to set-up a mislynch, but in this case that same exact wifom is protecting Makara scum.

We can't have more than 3 Ts.
Unless Makara is a vigilante, we have an SK.

[Varsoon]

I did not mean to have a quote there.

[Varsoon]

Brunn, I'd still wait for all the claims to come out before going all-in on Ranger.
If there's no vig claimed, then we can give Ranger a bit of a hard time.
I'm actually kind of curious as to how scum would know there's 4 in the setup unless they're the SK.
So, maybe Ranger is the SK.
Hm.

[Varsoon]

What if the extra kill is coming from a vig rather than an SK?

[Varsoon]

Makara is getting a replacement and Ika should be back to full claim soon.

[Varsoon]

Hey Persival.
Please read the setup.
We're currently massclaiming.
As it stands, we've got a dead 1-shot cop and two dead VTs.
There were two deaths on Night 1.
I protected the cop from being shot, but my protect did not work, which means there is a roleblocker in the setup.
That's about it.

[Varsoon]

You're saying that a mass-claim blows the utility of our roles by letting scum know who to kill, but I'm of a different opinion.
Our IC is already outed.
Our cop is already dead.
I was already roleblocked.
There are two kills a night confirmed, so this even further limits our role utility since there will be less nights to use the roles.


The utility of confirming two or more town is far better than my continued shots in the dark with doctor (assuming I even live to use it more) and whatever else we have.

[Varsoon]

Scum roleblocker is an integral part of the setup.
Please read the setup.

[Varsoon]

Given our claims, it seems really clear we've got scum roleblocker and an SK.

[Varsoon]

Oh, well, yes.
We should be lynching out of our VTs.
I'd be cool with a GrayFox lynch.
Otherwise, I'd toss up between Errant, Makara, and Maxwell.
In fact, I actually think this is Maxwell's scum-game, but I'm not a great authority there.
Hum-ho.

[Varsoon]

Yeah, that and him falling away from having game presence once things really got rolling in town's favor.
I do agree that it's worth looking over ISOs and giving these players a chance to get into the game.

[Varsoon]

Maybe I'm associating too much with your old avatar, Maxwell. So the newer posts aren't registering with me.
You've got this very straight-laced town-game that you run as scum but you also sweat a lot when under pressure or unsure what to do.
It makes it hard to make heads or tails of things, since that kinda seems to be your town approach/replicated easily as town.
I'm not sold on a Brunnies lynch. I think we should go for one of our lower-content posters.

[Varsoon]

Happy Birthday, Brunnies.
At this point, I'm really trying to figure out if GreyFoxx is part of the scum team being offered up as a sacrifice or just the weakest link in the two town out of six player pool.

[Varsoon]

The whole 'Brunneis wagon is super town-lead' could be an indicator that Brunneis is scum, although my hesitance would be that an SK wagon would more likely have scum on it and if we can lynch the SK today, that'd be super great.

[Varsoon]

@Persivul: Because scum don't know who the SK is. Scum are more likely to vote for who they think is town rather than pile on/bus themselves early.

@Ika: I do agree, when I first saw that post by duppin, I felt that it was a good indicator of GrayFoxxxx scum rather than Brunneis scum.
It's the sort of play I would do as scum to try to levy a lynch on someone outside of my team. If anything, I feel that it's indicative of Duppin/GreyFox scum.

[Varsoon]

Slow down, Klingonhead.
That's not really ban-worthy.
Get ole boy to step it up or just avoid playing games with them in the future if you can't handle it, y'know?
No reason to get trigger-happy with a report. Someone pushing a scumread is hardly contrary to wincon/trolling.

[Varsoon]

Unfortunately, that's just how it is.
To be honest, I feel like I haven't brought my A game.
I've been in games where I've really shit things up in the past.
I think it's important to offer criticism and play around it. Calling for a ban does nothing. Engage. Work your rhetoric. Get what you want from the slot.
That's how this works.

[Varsoon]

A this point, I'd prefer Duppin over Brunn.

[Varsoon]

Ultimately, I'd like to stay off of any wagon that hits lynch, since it gives us more info in VCA that way.

[Varsoon]

I support the GreyFoxx wagon.

Constantine, please stay in your hydra. That's the whole point of being in a Hydra. Pick up your posts so I can see them in your Hydra ISO.
You keep breaking this 'rule' of hydras. If I was the mod, I would have replaced you by now for how many slips you've had.

[Varsoon]

I support the GreyFoxx wagon.

[Varsoon]

Furthermore, I've gone on record saying the only reason I am not voting is so that we have more room for analyzing the voters on the wagon after the flip.

[Varsoon]

I will hammer out/vote if a wagon can't reach lynch otherwise, though.

[Varsoon]

I'd be willing to compromise for a Ranger lynch, as I could see Ranger as SK.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: GrayFoxx
So long as there was more than 24 hours on the clock, I wasn't going to vote.
Regardless of the flip, it is easier for people to work with vote-count analysis post-flip if more non-confirmed town are on the damn thing.

[Varsoon]

So, if you take Ika and me to be confirmed town, then you can really only analyze why the four other people were voting there for worthwhile results that may help with reading them.
Hope that makes sense.

[Varsoon]

Wheh, I was worried for awhile.
I'm proud of you guys pulling through with the win. <3
I probably haven't strong-armed a game this much in awhile.

[Varsoon]

Didn't read Errant's poem until now.
That's fresh.