Mini 1742: game over

[talah]

VOTE: Frozen Angel

Wagonning here seems legit.

Howdys folks!

[talah]

RC, I'll give you a solid townread the whole game if you sheeped me in voting Titus.

Same offer goes to talah and Frozen.

That seems like an odd way to go about business considering the sequence of events.

Have you got a scumread on Titus now based on her response to your first post where no-one else had posted? Or are you just wanting to sort her?

Also I could have voted Titus for the return-vote had I wanted to at the time, but I didn't (same as I could have asked RC if I'd wanted at the time why Frozen Angel was a better unposted player to "thaw" than ICEninja).

As it is - I'm happy to get a wagon up on Frozen Angel if that's possible and try to sort a player I haven't played with before. There's nothing stopping you from having a conversation with Titus if you're looking to sort her (in fact, that was the reason I wanted to leave you two alone to joust), otherwise I'd like to hear about the scumread you've got.

[talah]

Not really. At this stage of the game all that exists is detail and subsequent conversation surrounding the detail to move out of RVS.

And gutreads if you like. Gutreads I can usually explain where I'm coming from though, so it goes back to detail and reason for me.

[talah]

:) very nice reasoning to make a wagon SO fast SO early ... :P So your saying we should lynch whoever we don't played before to just sort them out ... :lol:

2 votes is the start of a wagon, sure. Wagonning to get reads is fine until there's something better.


Yeah I'd lynch you at this point. Especially if you have nothing better to contribute than a counter-vote on RC, considering there have been several other things happening.

Edit: hi Titus btw. You scum this game? How am I gonna know...?

[talah]

Have you got a scumread on Titus now based on her response to your first post where no-one else had posted? Or are you just wanting to sort her?

:O scum read on first post?! :facepalm:

Taly asked for sheep. No reason to do so unless he was looking so sort, or had a scumread.

Can I ask you to clarify what you mean when you say "scum read on first post"?

As far as I know no-one has expressed and actual serious scumread yet, unless it was me stating I'm happy to lynch you.

[talah]

Sort me... While I sleep.

Egh ok. You can be town while you sleep.
Help me find scum when you wake up mmk.

[talah]

:) counter vote on RC...


hahahaha give me a break.

RC was voting you. you voted them.
What do you mean by "haha give me a break"?

VOTE: Talah
to eager for lynch.
not nice to newcomers
and want sapm reads on first post

I would *definitely* lynch you right now.

If you want to rebut that by saying I'm "eager for lynch", well, I'm okay with lynching you because basically you're not making sense and spouting nonsense.
Which newcomers am I not nice to?
I asked Taly about his reasoning after my RVS vote and was happy to continue voting you. I wanted his read on Titus.
How is that spam reads?

[talah]

RC voted you, gave no reason. It was obviously RVS.

You voted RC back as well which is fine I would say... except there had been other more important stuff going on - you could have made a better vote than pure RVS countervote.
Then talked about Titus being mayor or something. I guess based on Titus' response - you were just trying to buddy up to her?

Regarding being eager to lynch anyone page *1, that's called waggoning.
It's relatively random, --usually-- doesn't go through (unless someone reacts really scuummy and everyone else agrees).
You're actually acting really scummily. I can be wrong but you have about a day to shit me some townbricks.

Yes I still want Taly's read on Titus. He asked for me to sheep him and offered a townread if I did. I'm not after cheap townreads - I want his reasoning. Is that not something you'd be suspicious of? He made an RVS vote. Titus responded. He asked for votes on the wagon - and here is the important part - *offered to townread anyone who sheeped him*.

Of particular concern, is you. Since you hadn't posted and therefore he couldn't even have a gutread on you yet. Yet he specifically said you could be town if you sheeped him.
I want to townlean that but I also want to find out what's going on with him.

[talah]

Well again, from what Titus said it's inadmissible and based on a shared knowledge of another game.
If you'd been using it to engage with Titus rather than just smiley-facing and dropping it I might see the point.

Ima wagon before I get reads. Unless I find something more interesting. This game so far just about everyone has posted interestingly... after I decided on the wagon vote (which was my first post).

IMO your scummy statements are mainly shitslinging. Per the below.

:) very nice reasoning to make a wagon SO fast SO early ... :P So your saying we should lynch whoever we don't played before to just sort them out ... :lol:

My vote was vote 2 against you. I stated it would be a good idea to wagon you. You seem super-butthurt about this and don't see any town motivation behind wagoning. (Reactions, others joining, etc)

:O scum read on first post?! :facepalm:

This in response to me asking why Taly wanted me to sheep Titus. Not a big deal. Requires response from Taly. You're trying to make it something else with the :O face and the ?! and the :facepalm:

:) counter vote on RC...


hahahaha give me a break.

VOTE: Talah
to eager for lynch.
not nice to newcomers
and want sapm reads on first post

pedit : @RC forward what?

pedit 2 : I can see how he can joke about having a town read on us for voting titus ... but I can't see humor in you stating "why is that?" and "we should lynch frozen because I want a fast wagon" :)

^This entire post. First the laughing off of a factual statement. RC voted you. You voted him.
Counter-vote. OMGUS. Whatever you want to call it.

Saying I'm "not nice to newcomers". Does that matter? Are scum less nice to newcomers than town?

"Want spam reads on first post..." what do you usually do? Spend a couple of days trading lemonade recipes?
I'm pretty sure on reflection you were saying scum reads but you've gone on with the spam reads thing.

Also I was considering town-leaning *Taly* for pushing on Titus without much of a reason. Not you. And I haven't joked about anything this thread.

What do you mean by "haha give me a break"?

- means "give me a break" scum , your just going to hard toward nowhere ... :P :D

If you want to rebut that by saying I'm "eager for lynch", well, I'm okay with lynching you because basically you're not making sense and spouting nonsense.

- "spouting nonsense" :facepalm:

Which newcomers am I not nice to?

- me?

^That.
You seem really sensitive and eager to laugh things off and call opinions :facepalm: rather than have a consistent conversation.
That's just shitslinging. Statements which are deriding my own efforts by mocking them.
I don't think you're looking for scum, just interested in painting folks as scum.

[talah]

I voted you because wagons are good and I didn't care to push either of Taly or Titus.

I think you've had nothing but problems with my vote. I didn't see you "clearly state" you had no problems with it.

Anyways Ima be back tomorrow. Heads-up to thread - 10.30pm here.
Night.

[talah]

says who were just saying , someone (it doesn't matter she was me) must be lynched just because I haven't play with her so far.

This doesn't align with you saying you don't take RVS seriously.

[talah]

I'm sorta here, had a couple of busy days. I'll be able to catch up after work in about 10-12 hours.

Also agree with the above, Taly is almost certainly town and the couple(?) of votes on him are terrible.

[talah]

@Frozen

Spoiler: full quote

says who were just saying , someone (it doesn't matter she was me) must be lynched just because I haven't play with her so far.

This doesn't align with you saying you don't take RVS seriously.

RC, I'll give you a solid townread the whole game if you sheeped me in voting Titus.

Same offer goes to talah and Frozen.

That seems like an odd way to go about business considering the sequence of events.

Have you got a scumread on Titus now based on her response to your first post where no-one else had posted? Or are you just wanting to sort her?

Also I could have voted Titus for the return-vote had I wanted to at the time, but I didn't (same as I could have asked RC if I'd wanted at the time why Frozen Angel was a better unposted player to "thaw" than ICEninja).

As it is - I'm happy to get a wagon up on Frozen Angel if that's possible and try to sort a player I haven't played with before. There's nothing stopping you from having a conversation with Titus if you're looking to sort her (in fact, that was the reason I wanted to leave you two alone to joust), otherwise I'd like to hear about the scumread you've got.

^ this wasn't a apart of RVS ...

was it?

^ this wasn't a apart of RVS ...

was it?

It's unusual to be saying that Post 7 was not RVS, but no, RVS probably ended either on that post or Taly's post before it.
The point is that your characterisation of what I said is a lie.

I said I wanted to get a wagon going to sort a player I hadn't played with before:

As it is - I'm happy to get a wagon up on Frozen Angel if that's possible and

try to sort a player I haven't played with before.

You are representing that I actually said this:

says who were just saying , someone (it doesn't matter she was me)

must be lynched just because I haven't play with her so far.

Quite different from what I actually said.

Scanning forward a bit, we come to learn that you actually *do* know what wagons are about - reactions and pressure:

yep that's actually an interesting case ...

VOTE: Wickan in L3

need to see his reaction about this wagon , first ...

*feeling confident* why there is always one saying that every game? :D

pedit - whoa - I missed that vote / I won't vote because I like putting people in l2 to see their reactions ...

I won't unvote* i mean ...

@Frozen your vote's on Wickan still. Why? Is it still pressure?

you really think I must stop pressuring wiccon right now??

You're happy to accuse someone else of being scum for wagonning.
You demonstrate that you know wagonning is a pro-town play if there is reasoning behind it.
That type of congnitive dissonace is usually scum.

and in 22 I voted him for 3 reasons :

1)

he was advertising to make a fast wagon

2)

he said we should lynch the one we don't know

3)

and he asks people to scum read people base on a naked spam vote / spam post

(numbering in the above quote is my edit)

1)

Yep. It was post 5 (me voting you to form a wagon rather than randomly voting), post 6 (Taly wanting to 1v1 Titus for what was apparently a reaction test), post 7 (me saying nah I'm happy to stick with my wagon and questioning his motivation in wanting votes on Titus).

2)

I feel like having familiarity with some others means it would be easier to engage with them directly based on that familiarity. You who hadn't posted, and who someone else was already voting - what better way for me to engage with you than vote and create a wagon on you so you have a nice piece of welcoming content to respond to when you get into the thread?

3)

I asked Taly for his read if he had one. I didn't ask him to scumread Titus, in fact I was quite incredulous that he was asking for sheeping from such little information.
Also I clarified that after you asked as well:

Yes I still want Taly's read on Titus. He asked for me to sheep him and offered a townread if I did. I'm not after cheap townreads - I want his reasoning.

The fact that you want to say it's spam voting or posting doesn't make it so.
For all I know he Taly could have some scumtell on Titus based on the voteback or the lacklustre entry.
So I challenged him on it because that serves to engage with him as well.

Now I can see a possible reaction from town being to attack someone you think is scummy for attempting to start a wagon on you.
But I'm having trouble connecting the dots when it comes to your exaggerations and completely misrepresenting me in the course of that reaction.

You did say it was part of your personality but it's not something I'm seeing as pro-town.

If you want to figure out the game you'd be wanting you determine motivations right?
Not flat-out lie and say I said/did things that I didn't say/do.

and I never said why are you voting me :)

Also this looks like some kind of false town-tell you're trying to push.
And it's also a lie for all intents and purposes because you keep saying that I voted you in order to speedlynch you because I didn't know you.

---
Anyway now I'm going to try to catch up a bit more succinctly...
Also I'm around for a bit for rando conversations.

[talah]

As for Titus, I am trying to sort her. The only games where we're both town is when we're bitching each other out. ;) Her reaction wasn't too serious, but it wasn't too defensive. I have a slight gut town lean on that, but that could change quickly.

Do you have a case on FA?

Yeah I'm leaning townish on Titus but she hasn't ever been an easy read for me - except that one time she was doing obviously-scummy things.

As far as a case goes - egh I can't say I really do comprehensive cases. But yes I do think Frozen is scum this game.

Plus, it is towny since RC, FA, and talah didn't just train Titus just for my read. FYI - in most circumstances, sheeping is null in my book - at best. :P

I actually think this is pretty meaningless (when it comes to me wagonning Titus, and I presume the same would hold for RC-town as well) since it's Titus. You might catch a total noob out trying to jump on a cheap wagon if they didn't know her but she's not exactly going to roll over as either alignment and is probably not someone scum want to push very hard unsolicited if she's town.

---

talah get less wordy, I had to stop myself from skimming.

I'll try. It's a bit easier if I'm not 6 pages behind.

@talah how often are you accused of going too hard too fast? (teehee) Also don't say butthurt it makes you look 13

I'll take this at face value and say "never" I guess.
I don't generally pissfart around during the early stages of games though if that's what you're asking about.

I'm pretty sure we played as scum together in Hip Hop Mafia a long while back? I was playing as an alt (schillinger) and replaced in for chkflk, I think you replaced or flaked and got lynched and Sleepykrew was the other scum.
Anyway I'm relatively satisfied you're town based on the difference here unless you've changed your playstyle completely.
Or unless I'm thinking of someone else entirely.

edit: @JF okay no worries.

[talah]

I go for the big fish because they won't get lynched without me doing it personally.

Which is sort of the point I think. I don't think as town or scum it would be a good play to try to lolwagons Titus.

[talah]

Okay then I suppose I'm just speaking for myself then when it comes to Titus or not explaining myself well enough.

Taly offers essentialy a no-reason-sheep wagon for towncred.

I decline
You (say nothing but) decline
Frozen comes in later and essentially declines (by focussing on my vote but that's neither here nor there since it was a while afterward)

I don't think that sheeping Taly at that point was a good play town or scum, and therefore that Taly group-townleaning us based on us simply declining to sheep doesn't hold much water.
Your reasons for not doing so may differ and I think the Frozen entrance was late enough that the lean there would be invalid as well.

[talah]

Next, talah goes hard. Really hard.

Yeah I'd lynch you at this point.

That is page 1, saying he'd be fine actually lynching someone "at this point". Wow. Then:

I would *definitely* lynch you right now.

This is page 2. Shortly after he states that he hasn't joked about anything.

Taleh, had I put her to L-1 on page 2 would you have announced intent to hammer? I definitely approve of pressure early on but this is seriously over the top.

If you'd put Frozen to L-1 on page 2

and it was an hour to deadline with only the information currently available in the thread

, yes.

Wagonning is an interesting mechanism. You always have to be prepared to go through with it - or represent that you will - or it's meaningless.

However - had you put Frozen to L-1

in the then-gamestate

- no. I would have unvoted.

I'm not sure what the point of your question is to be honest. Pretty straighforward unless you actually think my intent was to somehow speedlynch.

[talah]

Egh, I'm too tired and am poring over posts way too much having been here for like 3 hours.
I'm going to skim the rest again tomorrow and just go back to posting a couple of times a day.

Wickan

- why drop your vote on RC without saying anything about a changed read?

RC

- what's the scumread on Titus about, anyway? I'm not really seeing it.

Taly

- having trouble reading so much content in walls again. Hit me up with some Tony Danza if you want my input k?

Most skeevy about Frozen; concerned about ABR and Simple Plan at this stage just for lack of content. Have some reservations about RC and ICE, much less so RC especially after the last few posts. Everyone else has at least something going for them that I'm tending town to a greater or lesser extent.

I'm guessing 2 scum or that and an SK on an outside chance so I need to narrow that down a quite a bit further considering it's half the playerlist.

Night!

[talah]

See, I understand the thought process, but I don't quite catch singling out Frozen for this, when all Titus had done was counter-vote, and when all I'd done was cast a vote for someone unrelated to anything going on. Why weren't we commented on for similar reasons?

The thing is, overall, I get where the push is coming from, but I don't like it, one for being on the first damn page and out of nothing, two for ignoring other players committing the same or similar offenses, and three for the insanely serious nature during what is clearly meant to be a joking, fun RVS.

Catch up. Also re-read what you already have in the context of my intent to get information from wagoning.
You don't actually seem to understand the thought process or what actually happened.

How was I "singling out Frozen" when I was the second on her vote to create a wagon (the definition of wagon here is poor but I'll accept it because it was my intent to create one anyway) - long before any of you including Frozen had posted?

Also, read the below.

I'm not sure what the point of your question is to be honest. Pretty straighforward unless you actually think my intent was to somehow speedlynch.

You presented yourself as if you were interested in a speedlynch. You have still yet to unvote and are continuing to say that the player you originally stated this about is scum.

It makes me wonder if you weren't legitimately interested in a speedlynch.

A wagon's purpose is to get information either from the (random) wagon target or folks who would jump on for bad reasons.
There are certain other cases where you have a strong RVS-read and are prepared to lynch just based on that.

Given that I had no read (could not have) in forming the wagon obviously I didn't have an RVS-read. (I also have no previous awareness of Frozen at all).

So what you're saying here is: In having a townish intention and follow-through to an RVS wagon - talah is scummy and might have been wanting a speedlynch for then townishly pushing on and interpreting reactions from, his random wagon target.

Is that really making sense to you?

[talah]

If you don't play this game, this'll be the last one we play together.

Why, are you quitting mafiascum?

Hi.

Why are you scumreading JF?

[talah]

And I'm repeating this :

I never said why are you voting me

What does this mean.
Are you trying to say that this makes you town.

[talah]

no I'm just saying that your really trying hard to misrep me. and I don't like it

You focussed on my vote really hard entering the thread and I don't remember saying you'd asked about why I was voting you.

Would it be a scumtell if you did ask why? I don't think so and I don't get why you keep saying this.
And I mainly don't get why you said it in the first place.

[talah]

You still catching up Talah?

Nah I'm not going to bother scouring. I'm just responding briefly to Taly's ICE/Wickan/FA thoughts in a separate post.
Shoot!

[talah]

Wickan I'm tending town on mainly for his initial push *off* me surprisingly. He's a less-preferred compromise atm.

Also we have 3 weeks in a dayphase if you're not aware. We should be setting shorter consensus end of day targets IMO.

[talah]

I said it in first place because of this misrep :

I think you've had nothing but problems with my vote. I didn't see you "clearly state" you had no problems with it.

my reasoning about voting was clear. you can go back and see them.

What's the misrep?

Quote where you said "I have no problems with talah's vote" or something to that effect prior to this

I clearly said I have no problems with your vote. your tone in the other hand , don't seems like town

[talah]

A lot of my problems on getting accurate and straight-forward thoughts are bubbling from Ice and Wickan's overall interaction with me, and how FA walks around that.

Just ISO me to see my previous post about my overall thought process here.

What I can't seem to understand is - People are throwing associative tells all over me, while criticizing my vote and unvote off of a wagon - and then twisting my questions and answers to have a thought.

Basically... I feel like there is probably scum between:

Ice, Wickan, FA

I'm tossing around Wickan and FA, moreso Wickan as the candidates - what do you think?

Spoiler: Taly Interaction Thoughts

>>>

My god.... It's getting late here, and I cannot think straight...

This is how I’m seeing this entire thing play out.

>

Ice originally scumreads me and votes me for my vote on Wickan for being opportunistic. 69

>

Wickan says that the votes on his wagon was natural. 77

>

I defend and explain myself to Ice while telling him why I dislike the case.

>

Ice then expands on why my unvote looked like scum trying to hide a 'mistake' 80

>

Wickan still doesn't really say anything against that other than that it was weird. (His posts before 113)

>

I explain myself further and rebuttal Ice's theory on why Wickan and I are scumbuddies because I unvoted him.

>

Ice baits me that I'd have safely voted for him if I were scum - I didn't as I said that I could see him being town. 96

>

Wickan is now saying that my original vote on him was opportunistic - after saying his wagon was natural - but then says I'm scum trying to buddy up with Ice. 113

>

Ice is now torn on his read with me. 121

…..All of this is just way too damn messy…. :facepalm:

This isn’t even involving FA’s vote where only Ice is now looking at, or FA’s questions directed toward me – thinking I accepted that my unvote was scummy?....

This is throwing me through a loop.... I need to sleep on this.

On ICE - yeah I don't really like his trajectory. He seems to be really amorphous on his reads and I don't think his arguments hold a lot of water. I'm slightly torn on him as a sort-of old-school player archetype, something between CrashTestDummy and Justin Playfair who were both oldschool who I played with before in the same game a while back.

CTD had some thinking and pushes that I didn't agree with - couldn't see the sense in - and I argued with him and thought he was scum.
Justin had a more reasonable manner and took my thoughts very seriously and agreed with a lot of what I was saying (validating misreads I had at the time... particularly on CTD which is no surprise).

We ended up winning that game somehow, I can't remember exactly (I probably got nightkilled, I usually do). The moral of the story is I think ICE fits somewhere in between if I overlay the 'spectrum of old-school players' mental template I have. He could be town but I really don't like his push on you, his switchback on me, his reasoning for pushing in general, if that makes sense. He really does seem to have an agenda.

---
Wickan. The *interest* in the wagon built too quickly if that makes sense.

Just on a heuristic analysis (I read his iso last night before flaking) - I don't think he had much scum-motivation to push of me unless my calmish response to his initial "big push" was enough to turn him around (or the subsequent discussion with FA). Sure as scum you might want to come in with a big initial push but then why let it peter off? I can't even remember who he voted instead of me but it's not like I was attacking him for scumreading me. His subsequent interactions haven't involved backing down (I'll state here with the exception of the dropped vote on RC in order to vote you which is why I asked him).

The other thing I saw was his refusal to bite on FA's "who would you kill with a dayvig" question. He just said "nope" which I read as town.

---
FA you have my opinion on.

---
As far as those three go for lynch options, sure but I'd be hard-pressed to compromise on Wickan except for something like a deadline compromise and fucked if I'm spending 3 weeks deciding on Day 1 unless we all become happy little sprites making this thread a joy to read and post in :P

I'm more interested in getting info from Simple Plan and ABR at this point to try to get a personal sway one way or another.
I can sort of see where Titus is coming from with ABR gut-wise, but he flaked out of my last game with a few jokey comments as scum. So I really need more to even think about reading him.

Simple Plan I have no previous knowledge of.

So anywhere there it is.

[talah]

I mean we have three weeks but this game is moving quick. I'm forming some pretty ugly gutreads on people and I'd like some cold hard flips to have in my heart before I get bored and start theorizing.

You're saying his initial push as in his vote on you page one? Or his switch to Bells later?

His decision not to keep pushing me after his initial post where he could have done so easily.


Also my vote is kind of wasted now. Consider me still shadow-voting Frozen.

UNVOTE: Frozen
VOTE: ABR
I want more from you.

[talah]

to eager for lynch.
not nice to newcomers
and want sapm reads on first post

these were my reasons for voting you

not your vote

so your sentence there was a misrep

You're not making any sense.

You said "I haven't said 'why did you vote me'"

I said "Why is that relevant? Is it a town tell not to say that?"

You said "I said that because you misrep me"
and you quote me saying something completely unrelated to you saying or not saying "why did you vote me"

Why is it important that you never asked me why I was voting you?

Answer the question please.

[talah]

See I see the exact opposite because Bells looks like an easier target to me

And then Taly? I mean why wouldn't he pick his targets better or at least settle on one he thought he could push.

[talah]

Well it's probably just *partner* in this game rather than the plural. And that's a fuckton of if/then/maybes.
Dunno, I don't really like it. Also goes back to ABR's comment (somewhat surprisingly) that scum with daytalk would tend to be more talkative rather than less (whether I strictly agree with that or not ehhhhh).

You really have that much of a scumread on him? I've seen you pushing but don't really remember the thrust of the argument that he's scum.

[talah]

I answered this :

- Have I ever asked why are you voting me? I just asked why are you to eager to lynch anyone in page 2 :| and you wanted his read on titus based on 1 post?! and you asked him about his reads on titus base on a joke!

see? I was thinking you want to lynch someone fast and that was weird so I voted you. I clarified myself That I'm not voting you because of your vote on me particularly. I'm voting you because you want a fast lynch.

Okay, actually, thanks for clarifying.

Still, this is a lot of time to burn on pointless argument when I've been answering your accusations.

Taleh your case against me is weak , stupid , nonsense and useless , But I like to let it to be solved by night actions because I'm getting a weird town-vibes from you right now .

I don't see why you think I'm scum for.

I've been wondering whether you'll scumhunt or not. A lot of the poking you've been doing at me hasn't struck me as productive.

[talah]

talah is nulltown at best because she hasn't added anything beyond FA, Ice, or Wickan - or in general, beyond several pages ago.

Sheesh, talk about your arrows to the heart. And here I was thinking we had nice confident townreads going on one another.

Anyway, I've done a bit more than that actually. I have JohnnyF as town, you as town, Titus townleaning and ABR some nullscum bullshit I can't read unless he decides to play the game. Simple Plan might be lurker-scum.

RC can be town just on principle. I don't see any deceptiveness coming from that area.
Ice I'm going to put back to null for now but I have some interest in getting something better. I've just been lazy and busy.
Frozen I might be mistaken on as scum but I'm keeping an eye on it.

I'll add to that, that what I'm seeing from Titus appears to be classic Titus town play - very little explanation you can actually follow and attempting to lead town with bravado. Surprisingly her possible-scumpool has both ICE and A Simple Plan in it - and although I'd prefer Frozen and ABR in there as well - realistically I'm rethinking both ICE and Frozen so I don't really have a beef with her.

So that's where I'm up to right now. Also I'm probably going to be casual / sporadic with this game I've decided (and this may just be a general playstyle change for me so that I can play mafia consistently rather than in huge work-heavy spurts), so get used to it.

[talah]

I'll quit joining games you're in.

You play what, one game a year? :lol:

I came off of a very emotionally invested game, warcraft 3 mafia. When you pour that much of your life force into putting yourself into people's skin to think how they think, controlling every aspect of the thread from the pacing, to the votes, to the emotional state of other players...it's extremely exhausting.

I don't put out that kind of energy in every game. In fact, I usually have a cooldown period.

This is what usually happens, I join three games, and one of them takes off and I'm fully engaged with it while the others I simply follow my process. I make observe, I sheep bandwagons, I annoy players. That's just how it is.

Even without emotionally investing myself, I trust my judgment when it comes to my voting. I am effective either way. Sometimes, I get lynched for not bringing enough energy into the game. You have to pay the cost to be the boss. I live for the moments where I am completely obsessed with the game, when I find that sweet spot. That's the best I have to offer to this game. Worth the other games where I'm low energy and skimming.

Best post NA.
Any thoughts on the um... alignments of other players in this game?

I mean I know it's a derp question but the post above is probably more suited to the Mafia Discussion thread or GTKAS.

[talah]

Lying isn't the same as deceptiveness. But I'll take it on board.

[talah]

Dunno, I don't really like it. Also goes back to ABR's comment (somewhat surprisingly) that scum with daytalk would tend to be more talkative rather than less (whether I strictly agree with that or not ehhhhh).

I know you haven't mentioned this since you switched your vote over, but is this part of your scumread on Albert, or is it almost entirely due to the lurking (or something else)?

I hadn't really thought about that particular comment in terms of ABR's motivation to post it, but it was a leading question to Taly which I immediately knew the implication of anyway.
(That being that scum with daytalk available to them would tend to be more active in-thread. So in effect he was disputing Taly's take on scum being more likely to lurk having daytalk. However that's not necessarily the case I don't think and it depends on the scumteam. There can be really unmotivated scum who don't talk much in their thread despite having the facility to do so.)

Here are the quotes:

I actually think if ABR is purposely lurking it could be a scum-tell... You know... given that the mod confirmed on the first post that mafia did have 72 hours of daytalk.

I doubt the most active people in this game are scum.

What's the theory behind this?

More specifically, what's the connection between 72 hour daytalk and low activity from scum?

And actually thinking about it he's done this a couple of times then - saying something which doesn't really have a point immediately but rather requires a response from the other player to an obvious implication. (ie - "I have an opinion on this but it's not really stated and when you respond, I can make the actual point so it gives me something to refer to next time I post if I need it".) Also a possible stalling tactic.

So yeah that could be another indication he's scum but I hadn't really thought about it. I mainly wanted more game-related content from him since lurking is a totally valid strategy, and I can't get a read (aside from might be scum) with what he's provided so far.
He played a bit differently as scum in TSMD Mafia but he was picked really quickly by a combination of Molla / ika and Syryana I think, and when he had attention on him he got really awkwardly jokey (which I'm also seeing here) - so he may be trying not to be so serious this game and see if that works.

---

@Talah, Let's talk out Ice.

I don't really have time right now (it's getting toward 6.30am Friday and I gotta go to work), but I can give you my mental notes.

Firstly I didn't really like his pushes on Wickan and Taly. And I must say I didn't read in depth much of the wallks they'd posted but I felt that Taly was pretty much obvtowning from what I remember of his play.
(note to self I need to check out Taly's 3rd party play)
However, I can perhaps see that as legitimate attempts to sort Taly since he doesn't have to have the same read as me and obviously won't have the same reasons.

Secondly I didn't like how he switched back on me with an argument like "well maybe you really WERE after a speedlynch". I felt it was not thought through and didn't match any of the evidence in the thread, and could have been just a maneuvre to open up another line of suspicion since Frozen was obviously not gaining any support.
I believe he responded to that though, saying he is going to be constantly checking his reads - which is fine and townish enough. It was the lack of thought in the supposition that irked me, though.

Aside from that I have (or had) a general feeling that his reads aren't really becoming clarified. Look I understand that especially as a game goes on sometimes reads *don't* get easier, especially because you're only going to be right in a certain amount of cases, but Day 1 I think optimal lynches should be considered and I don't think your lynch-pool would be getting greyer and greyer. Anyway that point there is mainly feeling. I actually like his most recent post and that's after I'd been doing some reflection on whether his posting was actually coming from a more town perspective. I'm prepared to start thinking about consensus/compromise at this stage.

Sorry that's a bit all over the place but I need to get ready for work and I woke up at like 1am and couldn't get back to sleep O.o
Happy to have your feedback.

[talah]

What are your reads?

[talah]

I digged this gem up:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=60469

Check my iso. I have the same discussions every off game. Still won.

Okay.

Despite my disdain at being spoon-fed self-meta I did skim through that. Your attitude at least seems the same but I do want to point something out to you (because it's how I'm feeling about you right now, and also Simple Plan:)

My last many many many games in a row have given me zero payoff. All the fun of it was sucked out by players who couldn't be bothered.

The response at least is hilariously accurate:

But isn't that how you typically play? (Not being a dick, its just im Pretty sure that's why I avoided you in the past)

So yeah whatever I'm prepared to take a gamble here. Also I'm home early and getting drunk, have to work on Sunday and fuck 3-week dayphases.

UNVOTE: ABR
VOTE: ICE

I don't suppose I can sell you on Simple Plan instead as an *optimal* Day 1 lynch with the spread of opinions as they are?

Also do you have a read on Frozen? Funnily when I'm called derptown I'm usually fairly accurate with early reads. When I'm called scum I'm usually completely wrong.

[talah]

Sorry to interrupt your conversation - please continue, it was nice.

[talah]

Tipsy Titus is here.

Thanks Talah.

Why do you think ice is town?

I don't. Although I have misgivings that he might be. I'm mostly sheeping you actually and from there ABR. There's a -decent- chance you could both be town.
Also the discussion I had with Taly although he's tending town on Ice.


Ice I'm not refusing to vote Wickan but I am townleaning on him which is different from where I'm at with you. His strong entry against me with nothing to back it up - but then competently argues afterward having shifted his vote away...
I had this basic conversation with JF, but I don't understand why Wickan-scum would come in against me so strongly and not try to push it further since he's capable of doing so.

I mean I suppose a readslist from Wickan would be good, or maybe a will-vote / won't-vote type thing.

[talah]

This is a real impasse.

[talah]

In for a penny, in for a pound.

Won't vote: Taly, Johnny, Titus, RC
No fucking idea, sheeping, not voting today: ABR

Possibly compromise vote: Wickan

Will vote: Ice, Frozen, Simple Plan

[talah]

Also I actually agree. If you have ABR and Titus as your top townreads you should be voting Ice and I don't know why you would need wining and dining to make that decision.

[talah]

Not Titus OR Bells? You think that's town v town?

Who are you talking to?

[talah]

Make the case for why ICE is scummy.

I'm not holding your hand while you cross the street. If you want RC or Taly you'd best bring those cases or explain to the rest of us why you want to discuss matters further. In the form of bringing your own case.

[talah]

I don't think they're necessarily different alignments?

That's actually a new one to me. Don't think I've ever heard of an interaction being characterised as definitely scum/town unless it was actually town/town anyway.

[talah]

Also I actually agree. If you have ABR and Titus as your top townreads you should be voting Ice and I don't know why you would need wining and dining to make that decision.

You can townread people and think they're dumb.

Oh snap. Like I did you in Molla's large? :D

yeah now I'm getting to the point where I shouldn't post any more <3

[talah]

Well you do remember I had both scum there in my pool when I was targeted by the nightkill, and you lynched the doc.

Nevertheless I don't think that's typical of you-town, thus the sheepage.

[talah]

I can sort of see where Titus is coming from with

ABR gut-wise

Despite my disdain at being spoon-fed

self-meta

Reading over ABR, from a

mostly gut/partially meta

perspective, he reads as town.

Your

attitude at least seems the same

his general attitude toward the game seems to be similar.

HMMMMMMMM

[talah]

I'm giggling but it might be beer.

UNVOTE: ICE
VOTE: A Simple Plan

[talah]

Sheeperino 'cause I caught the scumslip please?

Obviously just wants reasons for reads. Has none. Wouldn't be surprised if the other reads are already covered by other players.

ASP since you're around you might want to, y'know, explain why your ABR read was exactly what I said about him.

[talah]

What is that avatar anyway?

[talah]

Spoiler:

heheh, nice, thanks!

[talah]

I have copying and pasting skills, it worked out fine.

[talah]

When the fuck was this?

IT was stuff I'd already said about ABR. Like - exactly the same thing.
You can literally click the links in the post you quoted if you want to read the context.

I liked your page 21 stuff so I agreed I wouldn't be voting you.

Who were you agreeing with?

[talah]

As in he votes easily, or as in he's lynchbait?

[talah]

I don't remember agreeing with anyone that I'd be townread. So you'd be agreeing with folks who did, in fact, townread me.
Who are they and why do you agree aside from the one page you referenced?

I'm in panic-mode because I have a super-strong scumread on you because of that and the ABR read - I'm waiting for you to try to scum your way out of it - and I don't know how to interact with you meaningfully aside from the fact you just proved you're sheeping me for some reason.

I don't have a *strong* read on ABR but it's nuanced at least.

Why is it you read him exactly the same way I do?
Gut, meta, acting similarly this game to his towngame?

Are you saying you came about those three things exactly without reading my iso or skimming the thread, forming a townread on me and sheeping?

My turn to WTF when did that happen.

[talah]

what is exactly the case against ASP ? the way he was lying low?

It's not a case it's a scumslip.

[talah]

[talah]

Well, here we go, let's see where the wheel finishes spinning this time.

VOTE: Wickan

CrayAYYYZey prices at ABR's basement sale of lynches. :D

I just became attracted to you but I'm also confused

It's okay I'm attracted to all of you.

Except mykonian. We have a strictly professional relationship.

*nods reassuringly* yes that will do

[talah]

[talah]

I think the fact ASP is simply regurgitating reads is pretty incriminating.

Don't quite get your rationale voting Wickan there, ABR.

[talah]

Simple Plan's scummy in his own right for not forming his own read on ABR, but rather mimicking what had been said in-thread.

Additionally he's been lurking and not providing input, but giving excuses for not posting (like "whoa, such activity" etc) and when he does post - see the paragraph above. His reads aren't coming from his own unique viewpoint. This indicates to me that he know's who's town.

He also "agreed" not to vote me today with what he's now saying is basically thread-consensus - this was after I attacked him for the non-genuine ABR read. I don't buy that at all. Let's say I saw that Johhny had no votes basically all day and I was to say "I agreed not to vote Johnny". It doesn't make sense that I'd be talking about thread-consensus. I'd either be agreeing with Johnny (in the form of "okay okay back off and I won't vote you" - obviously something that primarily fits a scum perspective), or I'd be agreeing with specific people who have stated Johnny's town. Otherwise there's no reason to "agree" rather than just state your own read.

Now he's wandered off having done just enough flailing and backtracking to thow doubt on his obvious scum-behaviour.

More Simple Plan votes please.

[talah]

When are you going to catch up?

Why did you decide to ISO ABR first? Who are you going to ISO next?
And why are you up in arms that I find it suspicious you're saying you came to exactly the same conclusion that I did, when you're claiming to have not read my own posts to any significant degree?

And talking about that - claiming to have not read my posts to any significant degree - why are you confident that I'm not a player worth lynching today?

Why do you know the votecounts but not what I've posted?

On lurking and you trying to say me not posting for 13 hours (or whatever, I might not post for 2 days or longer and prod-dodge, it's not the point) - your ISO now consists of 10 posts, most of them useless except as far as making excuses and defending yourself. Fully half of them have arrived in the last 24 hours and have been in response to me attacking you. Don't you think that's a good thing that I've motivated you enough to - actually post?

[talah]

To clarify: are you saying he actually copied the wording of your posts, or just that he's buddying up to you to look town?

It's not "wording" as such, it's the fact that he brings my own cumulative town-read of ABR and presents it as his own. I might be hyper-sensitive since it's my own read he's regurgitated into the thread.
I don't think buddying me makes him look town to anyone else but I do think he'd seen me offering him up as an optimal/compromise lynch for today and decided if he threw me a townread for *some* reason I might stop saying that.

[talah]

(And yes, I'm purposefully avoiding the A word, because fuck me if I'm getting into that crap again)

Associative? Yeah there's a lot of that flying around for some reason before we've seen a flip.

-As I've specified, I know where the ISO button is, and I know how to ISO the mod. It's not hard to watch the vote count progress.

I don't know that the mod's ISO would be the first port of call for me if I was catching up.
I might do that as scum I suppose if I wanted to see which wagons were gaining support.

-Fair enough in regard to activity. I've had a busy week, sue me.

From my perspective we're basically waiting for you. Pretty much everyone else has stated will lynch / won't lynch pools. Everyone else is voting.
Are you able to provide this yourself and actually vote someone?

[talah]

I'm around-ish but about to walk out for a bit.
Happy to riff :D

In your spoiler:

For now, as mentioned in my ABR post, consider this post a pseudo-vote on ICE because

I don't have a fucking clue what the VC is at

and don't want to derp-hammer.

Apparently everyone,

according to the most recent vote count

(and every prior one back to page two)

Again a direct contradiction from SP. Says he has NFI where the votecount's at so doesn't want to derp-hammer, then expresses an awareness of the current votecount.

Those quotes were different posts though. I'd almost buy that he went back to the VCs afterward (for some reason), but later he says he's "agreeing" to townread me because he was aware of the votecount at the time (the first quote you have there includes him saying he won't vote me).

And talking about that - claiming to have not read my posts to any significant degree -

why are you confident that I'm not a player worth lynching today?

Why do you know the votecounts but not what I've posted?

-As I've specified, I know where the ISO button is, and I know how to ISO the mod.

It's not hard to watch the vote count progress.

---
So he's simultaneously saying he knew nothing about the votecount when he towned me, then saying that he towned me because he knew about the votecount (and was agreeing with consensus).
That only occured to me now reading your post.

I want his will-lynch / won't lynch list.

[talah]

Dodgin'.

Sorry, been pretty crook the last couple of days.

[talah]

Egh, I'm sorta here. Please stop voting obvtown Taly.

Update FMHPOV (Titus you'll appreciate that) on the events since I last looked at things.

I catch Simple Plan in a really weak catch-up which was, imo, rehashed content from what other players (ie me) had already said regarding ABR. Simple Plan uses that to call ABR town, sheeping my own weak town-lean. I gave ABR some faith in that read, apparently SP thinks the same noted events are worth the same level of faith/gamble I had, minus the sheep. (The ABR sheep I made was on Ice, iirc).

I think that's a scumslip and ask for votes. Johnny and Titus follow me on to the Simple Plan wagon. Titus says she'll support any ABR or talah push. At some point ABR abandons his push on Ice, and joins the Wickan wagon, without much explanation. (I believe I asked him why, don't believe he responded.) Ice wagon evaporates. ABR had been sheeping Titus on Ice originally.

Titus doesn't vote Wickan off the back of ABR's vote, but when ABR votes Taly, she sheeps onto that for some reason instead of pushing back on Ice.
Like literally any semblance of anyone scumreading Ice disappeared with no reason and I can't even remember why, aside from the reasoning and reassessment I myself made, he was being scumread in the first place. But it seems to revolve around Titus / ABR? I have no fucking idea.

In the meantime RC is playing a very measured game, not sure if this is scum or town and don't particularly intend to tempt fate by pushing there - but the read on Titus I want to say feels more town than scum just because of its greyness and lack of intent. There's a caution and a gutread and a meta-read, and there have been several strong statements which I don't mind at all. I think the read is wrong.

I also think ABR could be scum.

UNVOTE: Simple Plan
VOTE: Wickan

L-....2?

Seriously, fuck lynching Taly. Wickan you made your bed.

[talah]

Also Taly I don't like your Titus scumread over Wickan. Me as town wants to keep her in the game despite my own misgivings.

[talah]

So yeah this is hella confusing for me. GG scumteam.

[talah]

Egh, I'm sorta here. Please stop voting obvtown Taly.

Update FMHPOV (Titus you'll appreciate that) on the events since I last looked at things.

I catch Simple Plan in a really weak catch-up which was, imo, rehashed content from what other players (ie me) had already said regarding ABR. Simple Plan uses that to call ABR town, sheeping my own weak town-lean. I gave ABR some faith in that read, apparently SP thinks the same noted events are worth the same level of faith/gamble I had, minus the sheep. (The ABR sheep I made was on Ice, iirc).

I think that's a scumslip and ask for votes. Johnny and Titus follow me on to the Simple Plan wagon. Titus says she'll support any ABR or talah push. At some point ABR abandons his push on Ice, and joins the Wickan wagon, without much explanation. (I believe I asked him why, don't believe he responded.) Ice wagon evaporates. ABR had been sheeping Titus on Ice originally.

Titus doesn't vote Wickan off the back of ABR's vote, but when ABR votes Taly, she sheeps onto that for some reason instead of pushing back on Ice.
Like literally any semblance of anyone scumreading Ice disappeared with no reason and I can't even remember why, aside from the reasoning and reassessment I myself made, he was being scumread in the first place. But it seems to revolve around Titus / ABR? I have no fucking idea.

In the meantime RC is playing a very measured game, not sure if this is scum or town and don't particularly intend to tempt fate by pushing there - but the read on Titus I want to say feels more town than scum just because of its greyness and lack of intent. There's a caution and a gutread and a meta-read, and there have been several strong statements which I don't mind at all. I think the read is wrong.

I also think ABR could be scum.

UNVOTE: Simple Plan
VOTE: Wickan

L-....2?

Seriously, fuck lynching Taly. Wickan you made your bed.

fite me at pax
This is a terrible, terrible, terrible post.

[talah]

oh that was a good post from me

[talah]

This is a terrible, terrible, terrible post.

Do tell
and please lynch me to put me out of my misery.

tia

[talah]

I just want to menation that this quote of RC was me fucking up an edit:
(I'm bolding and highlighting what I typed, sry it was in-quote)

Egh, I'm sorta here. Please stop voting obvtown Taly.

Update FMHPOV (Titus you'll appreciate that) on the events since I last looked at things.

I catch Simple Plan in a really weak catch-up which was, imo, rehashed content from what other players (ie me) had already said regarding ABR. Simple Plan uses that to call ABR town, sheeping my own weak town-lean. I gave ABR some faith in that read, apparently SP thinks the same noted events are worth the same level of faith/gamble I had, minus the sheep. (The ABR sheep I made was on Ice, iirc).

I think that's a scumslip and ask for votes. Johnny and Titus follow me on to the Simple Plan wagon. Titus says she'll support any ABR or talah push. At some point ABR abandons his push on Ice, and joins the Wickan wagon, without much explanation. (I believe I asked him why, don't believe he responded.) Ice wagon evaporates. ABR had been sheeping Titus on Ice originally.

Titus doesn't vote Wickan off the back of ABR's vote, but when ABR votes Taly, she sheeps onto that for some reason instead of pushing back on Ice.
Like literally any semblance of anyone scumreading Ice disappeared with no reason and I can't even remember why, aside from the reasoning and reassessment I myself made, he was being scumread in the first place. But it seems to revolve around Titus / ABR? I have no fucking idea.

In the meantime RC is playing a very measured game, not sure if this is scum or town and don't particularly intend to tempt fate by pushing there - but the read on Titus I want to say feels more town than scum just because of its greyness and lack of intent. There's a caution and a gutread and a meta-read, and there have been several strong statements which I don't mind at all. I think the read is wrong.

I also think ABR could be scum.

UNVOTE: Simple Plan
VOTE: Wickan

L-....2?

Seriously, fuck lynching Taly. Wickan you made your bed.

fite me at pax

This is a terrible, terrible, terrible post.

challenge stands, however :D

[talah]

This is a terrible, terrible, terrible post.

Also it's a fucking fantastic wrap-up of the current situation as far as I'm concerned..
Saying "OY ITS A TERRIBLE TERRIBLE TERRIBLE (X3) POST)"
Is actually a bit bewildering and I'd like to know why the hell you think it's so terrible.

[talah]

If I was scum I would have bussed him 20 pages ago and probably while 72h daychat was happening presuming it actually existed.

Anywhoo, fuck this noise, he won't even vote his own counterwagon, let's get a lynch.

[talah]

Him not voting either of his two counterwagons is actually a point in his favor.

No actually it isn't.

[talah]

Because town naturally do that.

[talah]

What happened to your read on Ice anyway, ABR?

[talah]

I'll just point out at this stage that conjecturing on Wickan-scum or -town doesn't help with his flip.

And also no. ABR is either town cuz blatant wk and vote-switvhing or scum cuz I misread. Wickan refusing to vote his own counterwagon is *not* townish.

[talah]

Interesting.

That's fine and I'm relatively accustomed to being NK'd Night 1, so why stop the slow-roll of inevitability.

UNVOTE: Wickan
VOTE: A Simple Plan

Wickan

, did you crumb your role at all?

Johnny

, surprised you'd have absolutely no read on me by now. Meh.

Ice

, I agree Hider's a shady-as-hell claim.

Titus

, the mod has precisely one non-normal role to use at their discretion given this is a mini. If there are any other town non-normal roles out there, you now know that Wickan's claim is fake so you should think about how to use your role to town's greatest advantage.

/workpost

[talah]

I go into the hider pool if ASP is lynched.

edit:^

[talah]

I don't see the point of wagonning both Taly and Titus - neither of whom I want to lynch today.

I'm just going to go ahead and disagree that I've found a way to barely exist - I actually just came out of a couple of games directly prior to this and usually that'd be burnout for me. So I'm going to be shamelessly lurking from time to time (and especially at times when I'm either busy IRL, demotivated, or simply as with this game - kind of frustrated that we're talking around in circles and stubborning up rather than trying to compromise on lynches.

With regard to the hider pool thing.

I don't really care what the pool is unless it's obviously bad. Free-for-all is a bad idea for a hider. A smaller pool is *better* but I also don't necessarily oppose a direct nomination if it has a *purpose*.

I already mentioned I'm fine with being in the pool if ASP is lynched and - LO - look who I'm voting. I guess you can see that as scum-me potentially wanting to get in the pool so my old mate Wickan can claim town on me but frankly I don't actually like the other options being offered.

Aside from Simple Plan I would lynch any of Ice, ABR, RC, Frozen before Taly or Titus - and that's saying something considering it's half the playerlist. Read on Taly is familiarity with his style from last game and his basic openness regarding mental processes. I tunneled on him pretty hard in the previous game we played (town and town) - this is a pretty strong read from my end. Read on Titus is mostly gut-based and a culmination of what she's posted so far this game. I will admit there's an element of underlying not-sure with Titus always, but I don't want her to be a Day 1 lynch. I also read her hider-pool suggestion as pro-town with the fairly neutral options for substitution given lynches.

I suppose there could be a possibility that there's some kind of setup with a strongman(?) which would kill a hider but not the hider's target if the target was protected?
Titus, I think you mentioned this. In that case the pool is better.

On the other hand there's also a possibility we have another investigative role like watcher which could directly watch who visited a target.
In that case a single target would be better. If that's going to happen I'll put my hand up.

Anyway I'm kind of just waiting to see what happens here because my preferred lynch right now is still ASP.

Johnny, Titus, Taly, if you want to float compromises given other players' stated preferences I'm up for it.

Frozen, Ice, Wickan - I'm interested to know if you're also willing to come to some sort of middle ground here too.

ABR I'm not particularly inclined to listen to any more since he's just randomly voting presumably for some kind of reaction.
RC just wants to tunnel Titus apparently. And not in a good, lots of input and information way, so probably no point asking for anything on compromise (feel free though)
ASP I mean I'll *take* input on any compromise you might suggest but I'm having a difficult time seeing you as town.

[talah]

Okay, interesting.

And fine - I don't want to lynch Wickan (mainly because of the claim now), You, Taly, Johnny.

Maybe we can start a popcorn won't lynch & preferred thing or something.

---

Won't lynch:

Wickan

[2] {Titus, talah}

Jonnhy

[2] {Titus, talah}

ABR

[1] {Titus}

talah

[1] {Titus}

Titus

[1] {talah}

Taly

[1] {talah}

Preference for lynch - nominate ONE only:

Ice

[1] {Titus}

ASP

[1] {talah}
---

...popcorn to whoever's online. Copy the code between the --- and add your own.

[talah]

You can fix my spelling of Johnny's name when you popcorn btw XD

[talah]

Yeah I added you and me to start.

[talah]

That made me smile :)

[talah]

here all week

why am I town, Talah?

Scumgame we played you were struggling to post, post seemed very -contrived- I want to say
You've been fluid with your posting and have prodded others quite a bit
You're not voting or supporting shitty wagons and it seems like we have a common ground

Good enough?

[talah]

I mean probably. It'd be funny to see Bells put everyone except you on the 'would not lynch' list though

I'm not sure what you find fucking funny about it.

We'll see who is laughing post game.

So your won't lynch / preferred lynch list is literally only Titus / won't vote anyone else?

Or are you actually going to play this game to the point that you try to work with others?

[talah]

I might lynch you if you keep asking me stupid questions.

Asking you to branch out from your tunnel which I disagree with is not stupid questions.

I frankly find a singular tunnel scummy as hell because it's just a way to avoid participating with opinions otherwise.

[talah]

Should I?

Yeah K.

UNVOTE: A Simple Plan
VOTE: talah


Fill in the form now pl0x

---

Won't lynch:

Wickan

[3] {Titus, talah, Johnny}

Jonnhy

[2] {Titus, talah}

ABR

[1] {Titus}

talah

[1] {Titus}

Titus

[2] {talah, Johnny}

Taly

[2] {talah, Johnny}

Preference for lynch - nominate ONE only:

Ice

[1] {Titus}

ASP

[2] {talah, Johnny}
---

[talah]

^@RadiantCowbells

[talah]

Not really. i prefer two townreads in the pool so scum can't shoot the town in the pool guaranteeing Wickan death

If there were 2 scum in the pool how does Wickan know who's town?
(ie for him to be guaranteed death with one town in the pool?)

[talah]

So it's well after bedtime, so night.

But I'm really intrigued that either of you see my self-vote given my will-vote won't vote as a "fuck you have at it lol". So anyway if you want to grab that wagon go for it.

Incidentally Taly don't add shit to the survey. Current problem is we have too much diversity. I want won't vote and one single vote. TIA.

[talah]

So I think we're just waiting on Simple Plan and Ice now?

RC and ABR did state their prefs so I'll update the list after I get back from work if no one beats me to it.

@Frozen not sure what you're talking about missing you out.

[talah]

UNVOTE:

[talah]

looking at Talah's post he started the day with a meaningless attcak to me he never stated he has a null read on me. I was in his prefered lynch list in whole day long and he suddenly forgot to mention me as a possible lynch?

I suppose that's what you mean by this (since you didn't answer when I asked in 1055:

Town he wouldn't miss me out . I was one of his scumreads today.

You're not in my "won't lynch" list nor my single preferred lynch for today. Which means I'll lynch you but you're not my first preference.

Preference for lynch - nominate ONE only:

Aside from Simple Plan I would lynch any of Ice, ABR, RC, Frozen before Taly or Titus - and that's saying something considering it's half the playerlist.

So... what are you talking about exactly?

+ that self vote was WAY TOO SCUMMY.

Can you tell me what was scummy about the self-vote apart from "WAY TOO" please. Usually self-votes are scummy because they're inauthentic or because they have some kind of fake appeal to emotion.

Thx Taly to dig that post he said he said "self voting is scummy" I was thinking I 'm sure I saw something similar but I couldn't remember where and I had no time to dig his Iso again.

Considering Taly said he dug it from our game together from 5 months ago, I'm not sure how you can remember seeing something similar. Can you explain that please?
(I haven't looked at the context yet but I'll get to it.)

[talah]

[...snip...]
Pre-edit:
Seriously - never self-

vote

hammer. I TRULY understand how frustrating it can be. I've done it before (well not hammered but voted).
Even if you have to lurk because you're frustrated it helps to shape the game and gives town info.
I really enjoyed your accesisibility as I mentioned and you were very reasonable - I just didnt' understand your change off Taly dismissing your own arguments and wanted to know why that changed onto ChriVi, and I think we could have discussed that better - as much my fault as anything.

So this was the same quote (which you quoted) where I told Netherspite to never self-vote (we didn't get along well in that game at all).
Thing is the guy self-hammered. Also he was tilting and didn't take time to blow off some steam elsewhere or just call himself a v/la or lurk or something.

This is a completely different scenario.

RC's taken a couple of passes at me and when I've pushed back on him he's become increasingly aggro with scumreading me. Now I'm sorry but I don't think a the best reaction from town's to being questioned or poked (especially in response to your own push) is to scumread, vote and leave it at that.

So I decided I'd give him some help with wagonning me. Maybe he'd push a case, maybe I'd become a juicy target. Who knows. But I've done this before as town in at least a couple of games. So I guess my blanket statement about not self-voting is - well circumstantial (as it related to Netherspite in that game) and a bit pie-in-the-sky. Sometimes I just find it quite difficult to keep everything super-optimal and serious especially when games drag out on Day 1 like this. So I take a sidetrack or two.

Besides which:

I voted you because wagons are good and I didn't care to push either of Taly or Titus.

Wagons

are

good. From my sometimes atypical perspective - even on myself.

[...snip...]
But I'm really intrigued that either of you see my self-vote given my will-vote won't vote as a "fuck you have at it lol". So anyway if you want to grab that wagon go for it.
[...snip...]

Aside from that^^ and meta contradictions, the fact that talah then

says that it's 'intriguing' that we recognized

and then prods us to a wagon doesn't sit well with me.

I've snipped out the couple of dross lines you're not referring to here.
I'm having trouble understanding what you're getting at here, especially the part I've bolded above.
It doesn't seem to line up as a problem with what I actually said, or you're missing some part of the point you meant to type.

Also the self-vote was the

second vote on the wagon

. I literally created the wagon.
Do you think that doesn't line up with me having some purpose for it?
Also this is like deja-vu from the initial Frozen wagon except I'm doing it to myself. In case you've forgotten.
Difference here is I *know* I'm town and so do scum, so it's a legitimate temptation with 2 votes outside of RVS imo.
Especially where other players try to characterise this kind of self-vote as scummy in its own right.

And if her self-vote wasn't meant for anything much at all compared to the wagon she jumped off of for no reason; then why didn't she bring it back the post after or explain it? It looks like an agenda was there.

You don't lay down a reaction test and then say next post "NAHH GUISE JSUT CHECKING LOL UNVOTE". Do you understand why not?
So what's your actual problem with my self-vote? We have a wagon on me now which probably has 2 scum on it.

Trusting some people on the wagon more, and the only major posting talah has done in this game was in the first few pages, she hasn't been pushed much at all and I feel like she's also gone under the radar. The intervals she posts about doesn't make since with the content at hand.

(Basically her posting 2-3 days apart between her engagements - ever since December 4th, which was not even a week until after the game began. Which would make sense from scum not wanting to do much when the chat was cut off 3 days in.)

This is a really bad argument and the reason is a PM I sent you back before joining the queue for this game regarding what I intended to do to allow myself to play more games.
Also:

Spoiler:

On lurking and you trying to say me not posting for 13 hours (or whatever, I might not post for 2 days or longer and prod-dodge, it's not the point) - your ISO now consists of 10 posts, most of them useless except as far as making excuses and defending yourself. Fully half of them have arrived in the last 24 hours and have been in response to me attacking you. Don't you think that's a good thing that I've motivated you enough to - actually post?

Dodgin'.

Sorry, been pretty crook the last couple of days.

I'm just going to go ahead and disagree that I've found a way to barely exist - I actually just came out of a couple of games directly prior to this and usually that'd be burnout for me. So I'm going to be shamelessly lurking from time to time (and especially at times when I'm either busy IRL, demotivated, or simply as with this game - kind of frustrated that we're talking around in circles and stubborning up rather than trying to compromise on lynches.

So I'm just going to leave that part of what you're seeing as "burden of activity" given I believe I have more posts than you - and both of ABR and RC have far more posts that both of us - and for the life of me I can't remember anything significant either have really done (well I guess ABR's done the rounds with voting but meh).

If you're feeling like I'm not providing enough content, how about you ask me some direct questions which aren't in walls? I dont' believe I've ignored anything you've said, correct me if I'm wrong.

[talah]

This is a terrible, terrible, terrible post.

Do tell
and please lynch me to put me out of my misery.

tia

So yeah this is hella confusing for me. GG scumteam.

these were the posts giving me the vibe you wanted to appeal to emotion in this game so far.

There are far more posts than that in this game with me expressing emotion.

As far as appealing to emotion, the first quote was direct interaction with RC to try to get pushback. It was a poke, not an AtE.

The second is/was still my state regarding how difficult it is to actually identify scum in this game. I don't know what it achieves directly for scum-me by appealing generally to everyone's emotion, if that's what your'e representing as my scum-behaviour.

[talah]

3 - self voting is scummy. specially after a hider claim which I don't believe at all. it seems you wanted to extract the attention from him. plus yeah its appealing to emotion. and I think its in a wrong way.

If you don't believe the hider claim at all, why is he in your 'won't lynch' list for today?

Won't lynch:

Wickan [5] {Titus, talah, Johnny, Taly,Frozen}

There are far more posts than that in this game with me expressing emotion.

yep and I find them scummy now. specially after self vote.

Those two statements of mine that you quoted, or all of the posts I've made which contained emotion?

[talah]

This is a really bad argument and the reason is a PM I sent you back before joining the queue for this game regarding what I intended to do to allow myself to play more games.
Also:

We are not lynching outside of Talah/Taly after this remark.

Would you like me to post the PM? I think it borders on trust-tell to do that shit honestly.
And I'm talking pre-game and before the game had filled.

Why is this scummy?

Thanks.

[talah]

because his claim is confirmable, don't twist my words.

hider is a not normal role + I never saw a normal game with hider (as I went back in histories of normal games)

Okay fine. So you're not happy to lynch him today but don't believe the claim at all.

Is that twisting your words or is that exactly what you just said?

and I find your appealing to emotion scummy. Its not like your personality at all. You can't have a logical mind and trully appeal to emotions . I think one of your faces is a lyer and thats like a very dirty politics to make a town read on yourself.

That's not the point of what you're saying. You're actually arguing that I can't have a logical mind *and* express emotion at times. Which is an absolutely absurd assertion.

[talah]

You didn't post the site but years ago I did one of those self-assessments and I was INTP.

If that's what you're talking about. I don't like how you're using your apparent psychological background as a crutch, but you're dead wrong or scum so there's that.

Also - I completely disagree that people have 2 approaches to any particular circumstance. Statements like that are the real bullshit dirty politics archetype.

Anyway.

[talah]

Results of the consensus survey:

Won't lynch:

Johnny

[8] {Titus, talah, RC, Taly, Frozen, Wickan, ICE, ASP}

Wickan

[7] {Titus, talah, Johnny, Taly, Frozen, ABR, ASP}

Titus

[5] {talah, Johnny, Taly, Wickan, ABR}

ABR

[3] {Titus, Wickan, ASP}

Taly

[3] {talah, Johnny, Wickan}

talah

[2] {Titus, ICE}

RC

[2] {Frozen, ABR}

ICE

[1] {RC}

Frozen

[1] {RC}

Preference for lynch - nominate ONE only:

ASP

[4] {talah, Johnny, Taly, ICE}

talah

[3] {Frozen, RC, ABR}

Ice

[2] {Titus, ASP}

RC

[1] {Wickan}

Notes:

Spoiler:

I think this is accurate. I went back to Wickan's update in 1043 and added in RC and ABR's indications and then continued from there. I tried to keep the order of stating preferences sorted by time in the list. (So first player to state an opinion appears first in each group).

I'm adding RC's 'Won't lynch' based on his 1021/1024 (ie he indicated he thought certain folks were town so presumably won't vote them at that stage)

Obviously some things might have changed now but this has been the problem; constant shifting and lack of consensus. So I really wanted a snapshot of a single state of the game we could consider and discuss (although I might have undermined that mid-survey by inviting a wagon on myself - oops. Nevertheless...)

Playerlist for reference:

(ordered by statement of preferences above)

Spoiler:

Titus
talah
JohnnyFarrar
RadiantCowbells
Taly
Frozen Angel
Wickan
Albert B. Rampage
ICEninja
A Simple Plan

Titus, talah, Johnny, RC, Taly, Frozen, Wickan, ABR, ICE, ASP

---

The below results are the more important result as far as Town consensus is concerned.

Implicit Will lynch list:

This is the inverse of the "Won't lynch" list

ASP

[9] {Titus, talah, Johnny, RC, Taly, Frozen, Wickan, ABR, ICE}

Frozen

[8] {Titus, talah, Johnny, Taly, Wickan, ABR, ICE, ASP}

ICE

[8] {Titus, talah, Johnny, Taly, Frozen, Wickan, ABR, ASP}

RC

[7] {Titus, talah, Johnny, Taly, Wickan, ICE, ASP}

talah

[7] {Johnny, RC, Taly, Frozen, Wickan, ABR, ASP}

Taly

[6] {Titus, RC, Frozen, ABR, ICE, ASP}

ABR

[6] {talah, Johnny, RC, Taly, Frozen, ICE}

Titus

[4] {RC, Frozen, ICE, ASP}

Wickan

[2] {RC, ICE}

Johnny

[1] {ABR}
---

So, refreshing my reads and compromise suggestions for Town based on this info (and to an extent my wagon info):

ASP I'm going to suggest actually might be town based on the fact there is zero resistance to his lynch - either that or he's simply being bussed at this point because his lynch seemed inevitable. I can vote here but have changed my mind on preference.

Frozen's vote on my wagon was the most opportunistic given the lack of solid argument (I'll get to RC and ABR in a second) and there are several other aspects to her play which haven't panned out as continuing town, like it seemed they might early-ish game after my initial serious scumread and push. I'm heading back to scum there and a fantastic compromise. I don't know why she has so much implicit support but isn't pushed - indicating to me that scum aren't pushing an obvious lynch target (because she's scum).

Taly's push was pretty bad too and I'm going to be considering that but still don't want to lynch him today.

ICE I mistrust because of his *lack* of suspicion on me, actually, but hey town can be right about town. Want to put him in the on-hold bucket for now, but he'd be a like 3rd or 4th tier compromise who I'd have to re-read I think.

RC and ABR - I can't help but group their play in my head.
~ On RC, I still don't like the tunnel (which has switched form Titus to me) - there's nothing to back it up. Votes/tunnels, person being voted asks questions, RC lurks until an opportune time to randomly post a quote and call it scummy again. Rinse repeat. I'd vote here.
~ On ABR - I'd like to think his voting-round-the-world strats have a purpose. Not really perturbed by his "game too easy" comments when I'm at L-1 with intent to hammer. I want to see his play after a flip if I'm around.


So.

VOTE: Frozen

[talah]

Frozen's vote on my wagon was the most opportunistic given the lack of solid argument (I'll get to RC and ABR in a second) and there are several other aspects to her play which haven't panned out as continuing town, like it seemed they might early-ish game after my initial serious scumread and push. I'm heading back to scum there and a fantastic compromise. I don't know why she has so much implicit support but isn't pushed - indicating to me that scum aren't pushing an obvious lynch target (because she's scum).

opportunistic how? you were in my suspects list since the start of game! :P lack of what solid arguments?

:D ok try to make other assumptions to vote me. this is clearly OMGUS :D

You voted my wagon after my self-vote and your reasons were literally

1) (wrong) that I didn't have you in a will-lynch list
2) self-voting is scumzor, don't care why, just scum cuz of self-vote, scum scum scum

Secondly, you've been flipping back and forth between scumreading me and fairly consistently stating 'you might be wrong I might be town' whenever I've addressed arguments you've made for me-scum (most significantly just now and also when we went into some detailed discussion of the purpose of RVS wagons).

I have 5 people that were on my own lynch-wagon aside from myself I can OMGUS if I want. I'm choosing you as the best vote for today based on evidence and - frankly I think I was just right about you in the first place.

By the way I went to the site you linked:-
"Your personality type is:
Architect (INTJ-t)"

FYI.
Love how a 50(?) question survey purports to answer all my questions about myself.

[talah]

So out of the top 5 compromises you're prepared to compromise on me only.

Anyway I've spent hours here again.

What do you think about Taly?

[talah]

By the way your last 4 posts have contained quite a bit of AtE.

"I'll try harder I promise"
"This is OMGUS"

[talah]

Well when you say this is just an idea - this is what's causing us to not be able to agree on a lynch.

If it's just an idea I'm asking you who out of this list you will lynch:

ASP

[9] {Titus, talah, Johnny, RC, Taly, Frozen, Wickan, ABR, ICE}

Frozen

[8] {Titus, talah, Johnny, Taly, Wickan, ABR, ICE, ASP}

ICE

[8] {Titus, talah, Johnny, Taly, Frozen, Wickan, ABR, ASP}

RC

[7] {Titus, talah, Johnny, Taly, Wickan, ICE, ASP}

talah

[7] {Johnny, RC, Taly, Frozen, Wickan, ABR, ASP}

At the moment you'll lynch just one of these consensus options, and it's the bottom choice - even after I self-voted and gained myself some ranking.
So clearly you're out of step with most of town.

[talah]

It's literally a consensus list.

I asked who people Will Not vote.

The list is who people will vote.

[talah]

Taly.

So I'm not getting into a wall-war with you and if you want to continue attempting that bullshit the rest will be very succinct.
I answered your accusations from the last wall because they didn't make sense. But you're familiar with me not liking your constant wall-posts.
I asked you specifically to engage me directly without walling earlier this game.
If you're town, do it.

This is the last wall-type post from you I will respond to in-kind.
Moving on.

You mean... A wagon on yourself? Apparently that's good? Couldn't you have just asked questions?

Couldn't I have just asked questions of RC? I already tried. Do you dispute this?

Don't try to explain the context; that still doesn't explain you, or remove my thinking about your self-vote and your general posting. Why would you argue that your vote on yourself was helpful?

I already did explain the context regarding Netherspite, so you kind of missed the point protesting, milady.
Your argument regarding my self-vote is (apart from subsequent, explanatory confusion below), the fact that you've managed to dig up a quote of me stating self-votes shouldn't happen for town.
You then direct town to read my posts and apparently fail to read me clarifying that into the context of netherspite's

self-hammer

, which was my issue.
So you're saying "town, read where talah says self-votes are bad and town shoud never do them - therefore he's scum, and read the rest of the page"
And also "town, I didn't read what talah said on the rest of the page"

Why were you meta-mining me from our previous game? Why not from one of the two I've finished in the last month?

Bad wording palooza. So I'm forgetting something?

Hm? You said "the fact that talah then says that it's 'intriguing' that we recognized and then prods us to a wagon doesn't sit well with me".
I didn't say anything about "you recognized" so how about you answer what I asked instead of saying "bad wording palooza". It was part of your argument that I'm scum.

Please tell me how this scenario aligns with your early push on FA.

If I can RVS wagon Frozen with no reasoning, I can wagon myself for the same reasoning.
The results are different.
Well actually the results are the same, funnily, considering Frozen's push.
So I should say the results give different information. They just happen to line up in Frozen's case.

I mean... You were town the last game... I don't understand what you're getting at here.

What's the confusion?
I asked you if you know the meaning and value and attributes of a reaction test. Can you go back to where I asked that in my last response to you and, y'know, actually answer that?

Or are you just gung-ho with bulking up walls providing new derivitave information? I asked you some pretty specific questions there and I'm now answering completely new information with you apparently ignoring points I've made. Please rectify this.

How do you know there are 2 scum on the wagon? Or scum at all?

I don't, I presume at least one scum will have voted me, and I think the ease with which it formed up from nothing indicates there was more than one.

And if your self-vote/unvote was a reaction test, then why didn't you say anything else about it, especially before you removed the vote?

I was at work and at L-1 when I unvoted. I saw the L-1 and left it for a while. I've already asked you to review the question I directly asked you about your understanding of the usefulness of a reaction test.
When you're tempted to post your next wall please go back to the previous wall I responded to and actually answer what I asked first.

It's not about amount of posts, or entirely the content itself; but the consistency as well. Which doesn't work well with how you've posted in several day intervals, only on specific discussions.

Give me a statistical graph of how I've posted with time vs discussion topics and I'll consider it. Otherwise you're just padding out "gut" with words which mean nothing.
And also your gut should indicate the opposite, and since you're pushing this line, I don't know if you realise you're being an absolute asshole here if you're scum but the PM I sent you before I even signed up for this game said exactly the same thing.
I intended to change my style to be less imperative to handle more games, I've done exactly that, and now you're pushing me as scum for doing it.

Why are you pushing FA again, over all people?

Did you read my 1102 where I explain exactly that, or were you too busy drafting this wall?

Who is bussing SP? And why is he town for zero resistance?

Considering nobody is opposing his lynch and the fact scum is so difficult to actually nail down in this game, he could be being bussed by practically anyone.
I'll admit his lynch seemed pretty hard to come by but that seems like scum-strats in general in this game. Any time we've gotten close to consensus there have been random switches in focus which have pretty much served to divide town. After asking who people won't lynch and seeing that literally nobody listed ASP as a won't-lynch, I'm figuring he's either being bussed or he's just town because scum would be fine with lynching him.
Are you familiar with the concept that wagons with minimal resistance are usually supported by scum?

Why is Titus town? You guys nonstop say that the other one is obv-town somehow, and literally nobody else seems to see it that way.

Uh.. Titus has 5/9 players saying they won't lynch her today.
I've stated why I'm reading her as town in-thread and also stated my misgivings (which are basic Titus-worries) which is still my current state with her. She's still most likely town.

Can you walk me through - in more compacted and concise words - how RC and ABR are 'linked' together, and they're scum?

More than "somehow I can't help but see their play as similar"?
They're both providing minimal supporting information with their pushes and votes.

This is terrible.

First you give 2 options - not the other half the rest of us added - on our preferred lynch, creating a dichotomy.

Then you say that there is 'too much diversity' inside the formation of this popcorn read and vote/lynch.

Taly, what I literally asked for was consensus. We've been pushing shit around on a stick for the last 2 weeks.
I asked who people *didn't* want to vote and who people's *preferred single vote* was.

I didn't really look at or care about the preferred single vote because that has been changing consistently for almost everyone. What I was interested in was how we'd come to a consensus on lynch.

There is no dichotomy. People siad who they wouldn't lynch. Everyone else is fair game given discussion. So I took those opinions and reflected them back.
If you're not taking them into account yourself, I'd advise rethinking that.
I had no part in any of the selection except asking and my own choices.

Do you think the "consider lynching" statistics are iinsignificant, like Frozen does?
Or perhaps you think me presenting that back is scummy?
Did I somehow get into the minds of every player in the list and somehow contrive to predict or influence results?

There's no dichotomy or deception. It's literally a snapshot of the game where players stated who they would *consider* lynching.

Now whenever you're being pushed with more power - you go back to this idea and then make and INVERSE lynch list; incriminating HALF THE PLAYERLIST to be a possible lynch.

I don't understand what you're trying to say when you say "pushed with more power". If you could clarify that'd be good.
I'm not incriminating anyone. If you don't grasp the concept of consensus then I can't really help here? Can you explain your confusion on consensus?

You 'narrowing down the field' just turned into you making anyone a possible lynch, all within the change of votes being placed on you.

Sorry when was I narrowing down any field? Frozen made the point that I could have included the other players with at least 6 votes of support which were you and ABR as well. I picked arbitrarily the top half of the list in asking frozen the question but you can always go back and look at the results

The fact that you just push your own reads instead of providing questions to others to get their input - seems as if you're trying to cause some sort of turmoil in decision.

Um... okay.
Pushing your own reads is definitely a town-trait that you've characterised me with there.
Instead of asking questions... Um are you creating some kind of dichotomy here yourself?

If I push my reads and don't ask questions I'm scum?
I pushed my reads but didn't ask questions?

Egh.... no. If you're town please review and clarify your question here.


We done?
...
Guess not.

You say my push is bad - but then you say you won't lynch me - but then your 'will lynch list' (where you put votes where people didn't place themselves) - throws 6 votes onto myself, which secures a lynch on me.

Hey actually it was *you* who mentioned the 6 votes thing.
So why are you worried about me "incriminating half the playerlist" if you're then criticising me for not pushing you for having the requisite support for lynch?

I didn't even look at what the threshold for lynch support was honestly.
And yeah I think you're reading me shittily but probably town? The way this conversation continues is going to tell me a lot tbh.
Tell me how I managed to influence who decided on your specific "will-lynch" group. You seem to be trying to hold me responsible for impartial data. I said I won't lynch you. My analysis is prior to the survey.

Yeah. Your 'popcorn vote analysis' doesn't add up with the reads, furthermore - you haven't even pushed on someone else yet if you do believe you could go after the 'scum on your wagon.'

Sorry I don't understand what you're saying about my "popcorn vote analysis" not "adding up with the reads". Explain what you mean please.
Who am I not pushing on which is someone else? Are you trying to tell me you're unhappy with my pushes?
Where I'm at is my current best bet / optimal lynch.

The FA vote looks extremely far-sided. FA only placed a vote on you; but while you say you wouldn't want to lynch me for supposedly a "bad push" - you throw an associative over RC and ABR and then incriminate FA as opportunistic.

Taly are you fucking drunk at this point?

What is far-sided.
You made a bad push. I think youre town.
RC I think might be scum. He has a lot of buddy buddy association with Frozen and it completely out of step with the rest of town. Has been pushing both Titus and now myself for stupid reasons and not responding when we question the push.
ABR has been voting sporadically and entirely opportunistically and providing minimal information. I'm back to tentatively trusting his voting as information-gathering because I can't rationalise it any other way. That's completely different from RC.

FA was *completely and utterly* opportunistic in jumping on my wagon.
Do you agree with her argument?

If so which was the best bit?
Where she said my "+self-vote was WAY TOO SCUMMY"?
Or some other in-depth analysis I managed to overlook?

---
Believe me - I'm never walling in response to you again. Either you give me the Tony Danza or I'm fucking ignoring you.

[talah]

Nice post scum.

[talah]

@Ice - I like how you think I went back in time to start a poll after self-voting, to make myself look better in said poll. How does that work?

@Titus I'm not sure you get what the list means? People who are expressing okayness with lynching [x] players is a different list I didn't think worth posting. What you're looking at there is folks who are (or were) worth discussing as compromises, because most players didn't have stubborn reads on them.

...annnyway, Wickan you still got intent? Let's get this done.

I'm VT

[talah]

Egh, I'm happy enough being the compromise. 50 pages in Day 1 in a mini is ridiculous. We need a flip and mine produces a ton of info.

Ice, kindly answer my question regarding my time-travel to make myself look better.

---
Anyway, Ice is now the worst vote on my wagon. His case post was garbage. Please read it in detail after I flip.

Looks to me like he and Frozen both saw they were in the top consensus lynches and decided they needed to head for me fast. Neither opposes voting the other. Neither considers the other scum.

So Ice/Frozen, if there's a third it's probably RC.
Best I've got.

I'm done.

[talah]

Just out of interest Frozen, do you know what inverse actually means?

Not trying to be a bastard here but all I did was turn the list of "won't lynch" upside down. ASP was at the top because 0 people said they wouldn't lynch him.

I'm just trying to figure out exactly why you find me scummy. It's not making a lot of sense to me on that basis. You keep saying "inverse list thing" as if you don't know what you're actually saying.

Also you keep saying "being emotional is not part of my personality". I am actually quite an emotional person, but it depends on the situation. Do you think certain people are robots?

One other thing too. Why do you think I was emotional when I voted myself? Because I wasn't. Unless glee is an emotion.


Also, thanks Taly for responding in a better format. I read what you said. I don't mind being lynched today for what it's worth.
And... I don't really care about pronous because I don't believe it's game related but mention it when I'm asked - I'm a bloke. Ether's made my last couple of Avatars.

[talah]

Seriously though, we should lock the hider down to one target so the information is useful.

If he gets killed with the person being targeted, well, we lost two potential mislynches.

You'd want to pick a better target than Titus. Yourself for example.
The information is useful with 3 potential targets. I'm happy with Titus' choices.
I'm not happy with you lining up a 3-town-dead Day 2.

Talah flips scum we autolynch Taly tomorrow.

And when I flip town...?

I'm not voting ASP.

It seems clear, ridiculously clear in fact, that he's been scum's pocket mislynch for when one of them gets pressured.

You think I'm scum and I just called ASP prob-town for almost exactly the same reason before you did. I'm not voting him despite how easy it would have been to rationalise.
Is that odd to you?

[talah]

I sort of am but I'm also sort of drunk and cooking tea.

[talah]

What's your take on Frozen / RC / Ice (Jeanne)? By the way.

[talah]

I did call it a "Will Lynch" list when I came out with the results. But I quickly and several times over clarified that it was about trying to bring town to consensus.

If you didn't want to lynch someone you could have said that when you answered.

That means you would consider lynching them, which is what "consensus" means. It's about finding out who we are all okay with lynching.


You're saying "I'm not buying that your self vote was emotional".

ok , your self vote was scummy as hell. there was no logical reason for that. not a single damn one. and I said I'm not buying you did that as an emotional move.

I didn't say it was. I said exactly the opposite in the post you're responding to.

Why do you think I was emotional when I voted myself? Because I wasn't. Unless glee is an emotion.

Why are you trying to push that the vote was emotional?

I had a logical reason, it was to get a reaction/push out of RC.

[talah]

RC may or may not have been testing me but I'd asked him several questions about his moves beforehand and in fact his vote on me was in direct response to a couple of pokes I'd made which still went unanswered.

What's a "political" scummy move? And why are you trying to squirm away from your assertions that I've been trying to appeal to emotion?

[talah]

RC may or may not have been testing me but I'd asked him several questions about his moves beforehand and in fact his vote on me was in direct response to a couple of pokes I'd made which still went unanswered.

and you voted yourself to see his reactions?! what kind of test is that! :/

I voted myself to get a response mainly. If you look back before that you'll see me attempting to engage and find out where he's coming from and him ignoring me. Then he voted me because of some lame reason he still hasn't explained even after I asked him. So I thought if I voted myself *with* him, he might try to come p with a case.

I also have familiarity with scum latching on to self-votes as scummy. Certain town will as well, but it's a different vibe from when scum do it. Scum usually focus on the vote itself. Town usually focus on the principle.

What's a "political" scummy move? And why are you trying to squirm away from your assertions that I've been trying to appeal to emotion?

the fact you tried to show how ridiculous RC vote is on you . this was a political appeal to emotion.

nope I'm not squirming! you voted yourself and everybody thought it was an emotional move. but it wasn't! it was a tactic to stop RC tunnel.

Well it seems like you understand my vote then. Why are you pretending it's about emotion or politics when you admit it was about me trying to provoke RC?

[talah]

@RC

- answer this please.

Spoiler:

Seriously though, we should lock the hider down to one target so the information is useful.

If he gets killed with the person being targeted, well, we lost two potential mislynches.

You'd want to pick a better target than Titus. Yourself for example.
The information is useful with 3 potential targets. I'm happy with Titus' choices.
I'm not happy with you lining up a 3-town-dead Day 2.

Talah flips scum we autolynch Taly tomorrow.

And when I flip town...?

I'm not voting ASP.

It seems clear, ridiculously clear in fact, that he's been scum's pocket mislynch for when one of them gets pressured.

You think I'm scum and I just called ASP prob-town for almost exactly the same reason before you did. I'm not voting him despite how easy it would have been to rationalise.
Is that odd to you?

[talah]

the provoking thing is the political move.

whats your case against me beside that inverse list thing and the fact I'm voting you?

In the shortest possible form,

You're extremely defensive and you take that to ridiculous extremes.

Two examples that come to mind are
- The initial RVS wagon which I attempted. You did not react in a town way, but rather blew it out of proportion.
- When when we'd all finished saying who we *wouldn't* lynch and you realised that town basically don't care if you are lynched, you reacted extremely badly, not even bothering to see if the information we'd all given was helpful.
- It was.

You're repeating an "inverse list thing" mantra over and over without explaining why information is scummy.

I asked who of the top half of the list you would be prepared to vote and you flipped your lid.
I'm guessing that at least one of your scumbuddies is in those 4 others aside from you, considering you did not want to consider a discussion about consensus at all.

You can't decide whether to call me scum for being emotional or logical, so you make up a new term "political".

and then say I'm neither emotional nor logical even though both of these have been what you've been ranting about.
Also, you didn't say that I was appealing to emotion until I suggested that this would be one of the usual reasons a self-vote is scummy.
You pushed on that for a long while but have now switched to an invented term when you realise you're not making sense.

You're using appeal to authority to paint me as scum by saying you have a psychological background.

and have said several times that being emotional doesn't fit my personality, when we've never played a game together before.

I think you've been playing dumb at times, on purpose.

It's a defense mechanism. If something doesn't suit what you want to hear, you pretend it did, and then ask for clarification.
When clarification is provided, you pretend to take the new information on board to "revise your reads".
However you never actually revise them.


There's other stuff but I honestly couldn't be bothered right now.
I'll be around for a bit but not for hours tonight.

[talah]

Yes, but I saw FA was in there, I had to.

Welcome!

I think you got a scum role PM.

Why do you think I'm town?
How detailed was your catch-up?

[talah]

G'day Beetlejuice.

[talah]

So if I was to say I don't think your personality is defensive, it's more humourous and touchy-feely - and that doesn't match you being overly defensive - would you call that bullshit?

[talah]

Let me give you a hypothetical.

(inb4 "hypothetical" is scummy)

Me: "Hi Frozen, I think you're scum because YOUR personality is more about touching emotion and being humourous than being angry and defensive"

You: ...

[talah]

Why were you pushing appeal to emotion as my big scum drawcard?

What did you think about ICE and what do you think about Jeanne so far? I don't think you interacted with ICE at all, did you?

[talah]

I'm not really up for searching when I can just ask you about it right now. If you've searched yourself to check how much you've interacted with ICE you might as well just say that.

So you have a familiarity with Jeanne? Can you give me an idea of when you've played before? Because all you've said to her is this:

Yes, but I saw FA was in there, I had to.

*hugs* :)

So I would think if you know her you would be trying to read her, especially if you were unsure on ICE.


Where are you at on Titus / talah / Wickan scumteam? Your reads have been pretty static on us three as scum even though you've expressed small changes of heart.

[talah]

Because you've been saying that yourself.

+ I myself called Titus , wickan and talah the scum team somewhere before

---

:facepalm: your accusing me of not been intracting with Ice and I need to research it for you?!!! seriously?!

I'm not sure what the actual fak your point is here but you were the person who told *me* to research it.
I don't remember any interaction between you two and you both of you declined to say you wouldn't lynch the other.

I'd rather just ask you about your interactions with ICE, because I remember none. Which means you weren't scumhunting on ICE. I guess you had him as a null-read all along? And you're not trying to interact with Jeanne.
And you tilted when I gave data of ASP / ICE / RC and said I didn't want to vote ASP.


So yeah I'm headed out for tonight.
Who are your top scumreads right now?

[talah]

These are your interactions with ICE:

Damn this game needs to slow down a bit.

you want to calm down your partner ha? :)

and I like your questions about Ice ninja really like to see his answers.

Well actually lets start sorting titus out.

why your posts are only one sentence long and your not explaining your actions. you say RC is scum becuase he is scum. Ice is my second suspect atm. wiccon wagon sucks ....

pedit : I got sniped by jhonys post

This game is starting to stall. We have a severely divided town with a handful of people feeling very strongly about something, but very little general consensus. Simple Plan has, for all intents and purposes, not yet posted in this game. Something has to give.

this is townish. I like this ^

Someone give me a short case of why I should vote someone other than Titus or Wickan, because right now I don't see myself voting anyone else nor does it look like I'll be able to convince 6 people to vote for Wickan.

this is not .... :/

Someone give me a short case of why I should vote someone other than Titus or Wickan, because right now I don't see myself voting anyone else nor does it look like I'll be able to convince 6 people to vote for Wickan.

this is not .... :/

if you have a case against titus -wiccon why are you asking people to give a short case?

and why you think you can't convince others to vote wiccon? if your case is that weak on them that you can't convince others about it. so whats is use?

ICE why are you blaming town? your not one? start making data instead please ...
talah - I actually have no questions from you -- :D

and yeah wickan really deserve this.

Intent to hammer Wickan

please next time your online Role claim

Johny and Ice your current reads on Talah ?

[talah]

There are 1325 posts in this game and you have interacted with him at best 8 times.

[talah]

The 8 posts quoted were you having some sort of interaction which involved ICE.

The posts where you directly approached him or asked him a question are here:

you want to calm down your partner ha? :)

if you have a case against titus -wiccon why are you asking people to give a short case?

and why you think you can't convince others to vote wiccon? if your case is that weak on them that you can't convince others about it. so whats is use?

ICE why are you blaming town? your not one? start making data instead please ...

Johny and Ice your current reads on Talah ?

No, I don't believe you were trying to read ICE. Despite mentioning him as a scumread in one post early on.

[talah]

Why are you worried about me proving anything when I'm scum in your eyes?

[talah]

You didn't ask him anything, you just made a couple of comments in his direction.

So you weren't scumhunting him at all. You weren't trying to figure out his alignment.

I think it's because you didn't want to say anything awkward to associate yourself with him.

Are you saying I should believe you're town because you're town? So if my first post of each game is "I'm town" then I'm town every game?

[talah]

1. Because all your posts look town to me
2. I read every post.

I think maybe I'm going to irritate you generally as a player if that's the calibre of reasoning you provide in your reads.
I sort of like to know where people are at with reads so that I can compare them down the track.

I think RC might be scum, that's fine. Why is ABR less scummy than RC?

[talah]

My connection to Ice was just as much as my connections to Johny , wickan , titus , RC , taly ... nearly everyone else in game. No I wasn't scum hunting but hey! look! I already apologised for that,

I started few days ago. By scum hunting you and Taly ...

So you think Taly and I are scum together?

Why did he bus me then, when he voted me and looked up that bullshit meta from the only other game we'd played?

[talah]

It's buddying straight up if you don't have a reason.

[talah]

I don't oppose that nor your RC read but I like reasons for things. The type that actually make sense to me.

[talah]

I'm actually going to v/la for a bit.
Bit of a timeout for me.

It's Monday night 9.30p.
I'll be back Thursday sometime after work.

I trust town to make the right choices here.
Seems pretty obvious to me but I need to zen for a bit.

@mod v/la for 3 days

will flag it in my profile

[talah]

Well that's some horse-shit, Taly.

I'm town as stated.

FA hasn't commented on either of the other self-votes, and Jeanne is confirmed scum.

---
Anyway at least now I get the rest of my break in peace without just vaguely following along.
Good luck town!

[talah]

Nice game.

Dunno if it needs permissions but the dead thread was here: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=64600

ABR's play was good from my perspective. Day 1 there were so few people really agreeing en-masse that it was hard to look at one player and say that their reasons for doing stuff was really scummy.
Really I was looking at your play of just voting whoever seemed weak at the time and thinking to myself... weee-eeell, I think he'd actually try to do that less if he was scum.

Had a bit of a chuckle at the heartfelt emotion coming into Day 2 as well. Nice one, you deserved the win. Ice's play I though was pretty solid too, and Jeane played pretty well (with the exception of the hammer I suppose) and then followed your advice Day 2.
gg guys.

Guess I ended up with a bad tunnel of my own on Frozen and made a few other questionable plays.
Still, enjoyed it and thanks to all of you.
Happy Christmas and all that jazz. :)

(and P.S. Taly - no hard feelings at all sir <3 I take responsibility for my own lynch Day 1 - could have fought it, just didn't feel like the effort would outweigh the flip. Never again!)

[talah]

SAME from like day 1 fuck you guys

Hey! FU too, I had a strong townready on Taly even through his walls against me!
:P

I think the fatal mistake from you me and Titus was not going back to Ice after I derailed the bloody Ice wagon onto ASP.
(sorry bout that but at least I didn't spill millions of gallons of oil into the ocean SORRY)

[talah]

Townready best word. Egh.

[talah]

Hey ABR, you got a scumthread for us please?

[talah]

Or Jeanne or Ice :)

[talah]

Mykonian can release it.

Thing is, I would guess he's relaxing on a yacht in the Bahamas right now.

Oh well. Perhaps when his back to the future (tm) style max headroom television prompts him to refill his pepsi. XD

[talah]

I must apologize again. RC knows what kind of serious problem I had when we were in lylo.

I take all the responsibility for the loose.

You asked some great questions and it wasn't an easy decision.

Hope you'll look at the intentions behind crazy actions in future, is all. I'll do the same.