Mini 1785: Game Over!

[acryon]

I am v/la on weekends.

Same.

Don't think I recognize any of you apart from RC, but at least I know his presence means I will be ripped apart post-game.

Obvious vote.

VOTE: JarJarDrinks

[acryon]

VOTE: Kush

That feels really fake.

This ^

vote thekushmountains

To both of you: in your experience, are scum trying that blatantly hard to look town as far as saying "excited to be town"?

[acryon]

Uh, fuck yeah?
I don't understand why Kush is particularly excited about playing with Jake again either and it feels insincere.
I wouldn't be surprised if both are scum here.

Can you point me to a game where scum said something like this?

[acryon]

vote: RC

OMGUS?

[acryon]

vote: RC

OMGUS?

how is it omgus if he isn't voting me?

He still said he wouldn't be surprised if you were scum.

[acryon]

ok?

I really hope you're scum.

[acryon]

why? because you don't know what the definition of OMGUS is?

Well anyways, you can hope as much as you want but I am not scum

No because if your posts so far are any indication, you seem like you are going to do nothing for town.

@Mr Meeseeks: I vote for people I think are scum, not people I hope are scum. Do you do differently?

[acryon]

it's page 2...

Luckily you have plenty more time.

[acryon]

@Mr Meeseeks: I vote for people I think are scum, not people I hope are scum. Do you do differently?

i didnt come here to argue words, those are basically the same thing and dont use word trickery to slip out of any accusations

VOTE: acryon

Do you not see a huge difference between the two? "Wow this player doesnt seem to be very helpful. Hope they aren't on the town side." is not even close to saying that I think someone is scum.

@Jake: TBH your "Ok?" really rubbed me the wrong way, but we can move on from here I think.

[acryon]

my OK? was because the example you gave wasn't an example of OMGUS which you said it was. OMGUS occurs when you vote somebody for voting for you or even attacking you. Not because somebody says they think you are probably scum but voting somebody else.

btw what is your issue with OMGUS anyway? analyzing my own play I omgus people a lot and don't even realize I am doing it sometimes. If a person makes an attack on me that I believe is so bad it can't possibly come from town i am going to return fire and make them pay and trust me, you don't want to tangle with me when i'm fired up

I didn't even say I had an issue with it. I was just asking you if that's what it was.

[acryon]

Do you not see a huge difference between the two? "Wow this player doesnt seem to be very helpful. Hope they aren't on the town side." is not even close to saying that I think someone is scum.

so you say not being helpful is a thing that you expect scum to do

and you think hes not being helpful

but you dont think hes scum you just hope hes scum because scum arent helpful and hes not being helpful

do you see where it doesnt quite add up for me

No. I expect unhelpful people to be unhelpful, which has nothing to do with alignment. Given the nature of the game, I would prefer for these unhelpful people to be scum as oppose to town.

[acryon]

hey RC - I just realized that we have played like 6 games together and you have only been scum twice. man those 2 games must have really done a number on me lol

Don't worry I feel the same. PTSD.

[acryon]

...riiiiiiiggghhhhhtttt..? ill accept this if only because it makes no sense so who cares

and, after commenting on his uselessness and explicitly wanting him to be scum

youve made fuckall of an effort to figure out his alignment to help quell your fears

correct?

Ok now I definitely hope you are scum. Unhelpful and unable to comprehend a simple statement.

VOTE: Acryon

We've never played together where I've been scum?

Have we not? I was sure I played with scum!you before I took my break from the site.

[acryon]

Ok now I definitely hope you are scum. Unhelpful and unable to comprehend a simple statement.

ive put more of an effort into this game than you so far, get off your fucking high horse and stop being condescending because your join date is better than mine

Has nothing to do with that. It has to do with you not being able to understand an idea and then painting me negatively because you can't get it.

[acryon]

notice the bit where i said "ill accept this" and then pointed out an entirely unrelated problem

congrats on your reading skills

Except you voted me based on your misunderstanding. But I'd rather not clog the thread with this. Taking a break for a bit to let other people post.

[acryon]

@Mr Meeseeks: I vote for people I think are scum, not people I hope are scum. Do you do differently?

So scummy. Obviously the reason you're saying u hope he's scum is cause ur accusing him of being scummy.

Then trying to then throw shade on Meesecks for asking a natural question about it.

This is not true at all, and I'm not sure how people aren't getting this. If I thought he was scum I would have been voting him and saying he was scum. Instead it felt like he was just going to be unhelpful, hence me "hoping he is scum". In what world does hoping = believing and even worse,

saying

I hope in jest = believing?

Do you honestly not see a difference between: (A) being bothered by someone's perceived unhelpfulness and saying that I hope they are scum because I don't want unhelpful town and (B) thinking someone's unhelpfulness makes them scum?

If you don't see that difference then I may just not be able to help you here.

That being said, I am going to move my vote since I think JarJar is actually trying to scumhunt, although he's obviously in the wrong place.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: nnn_thekushmountains

That jump on was bad.

[acryon]

Do you honestly not see a difference between: (A) being bothered by someone's perceived unhelpfulness and saying that I hope they are scum because I don't want unhelpful town and (B) thinking someone's unhelpfulness makes them scum?

How can you tell the difference? If I see someone being unhelpful, I give them scumpoints for it.

I can't yet. But unhelpfulness/standoffishness is not inherently alignment-indicative in my opinion. The whole point of the game is to figure out what is actually evil and what is benign. I think there is generally too much focus on what is scummy and what is not scummy, because that model implies that town always look "townie" and scum always look "scummy". We're looking for intent, which is a lot harder to look for but is much more likely to find us scum.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: nnn_thekushmountains

That jump on was bad.

I didn't like it either. Seems like pretty noobish scum to sheep so obviously though.

Yeah I think I agree it's likely to come from noobish scum, although not exclusively the noobish variety.

[acryon]

Anything worth reading in the last four pages?

no, don't bother

VOTE: Lapsa

Keeping my vote on kush, but I am sheeping this in theory.

[acryon]

VOTE: nnn_thekushmountains

omgus?

You could say that, but frankly I would've voted kush there no matter who they voted for if it was in that same manner. The jump on was bad. Do you think it wasn't?

[acryon]

i dont see why it is any worse than any other jump on you

Other people didn't pretend they had serious reasons. kush pretended he was convinced by JarJar's good points when he didn't necessarily even make any points; he just posted a gut read.

[acryon]

so your problem wish his jump was that it was... too justified? the fuck

But it actually wasn't. I see that you're theoretically reading things, but I'm going to need you to actually read things critically.

He didn't actually have a good reason for jumping on, but he tried to look like he did. There's a difference between someone just looking town and someone who looks like they are trying to look like town. We are looking for the latter, and I'm not sure why I have to explain that to you.

[acryon]

if hed tried to pass the reasoning off as his own, id be with you

but he didnt

Well we are going to have to agree to disagree here.

[acryon]

Not sure about Garmr. His push in 177 wasn't bad, but he has also fluffed a lot. This isn't necessarily alignment-indicative though.

I'm having a really hard time figuring out Mr. Meeseeks, because we disagree on so much, so he's going to stay null until I can be sure my read is less influenced by gut and more-so by the game.

Autti's entrance hasn't been great, but the process in 148 feels town.

Fire Assassin seems to be doing real things, although 99 pings me. It feels weird to (1) say that this was standard RVS, since it seems like it got going abnormally quickly and (2) pointing out Lapsa as trying to appear town. Especially since it was so short, I don't like the idea of setting someone up with the way they should feel. That being said, I also don't like Lapsa so FA may be town.

Still happy with kush and Lapsa for scum, although lapsa is lower I think.

[acryon]

defensiveness isnt a scumtell alone

defensiveness with no attempt to ever find scum ever? like only popping in thread to defend from an attack? that is scummy

Echoing this.

Defending yourself is not scummy. But when self-preservation appears to be more important to a person than finding scum, that should put up red flags.

[acryon]

and the fact that i have pretty obviously made an effort to find scum and sort players entirely nullifies that point

congrats

Maybe you are misreading what I said. The "you" is just in general, not toward you. I don't think you were doing what I mentioned.

[acryon]

leaning on acryon scum and not a huge lapsa fan, i believe that garmr is probably town but just struggling a little, and that the kush wagon is largely mislead

3/4 of those could be seen by looking at my iso

so good job asking a useless question in an attempt to look useful

im gonna look more closely at you though as the game unfolds

Ok well ignoring you think I'm scum for a second because we can't talk about that. Who else is scum?

P.edit: No worries, just wanted to clarify.

[acryon]

lapsa is my only other real thing that could clarify as a "scumread" at this moment in time

not sure if i like how radiantcowbells is doing shit but i think thats more of a playstyle thing rather than an actual scum thing

Can confirm this is RC's playstyle, and can also confirm it's frustrating to figure out his alignment.

You don't like the kush wagon. Why? Do you not like who's on it, not like the reasons people are on it, or do you think kush is town?

[acryon]

i dont think that anything he has done at this point is clearly scummy. like, sure hes done some slightly stupid and dim things. but the main points against him i disagree with - see particularly the accusations of him arguing with little reasons etc etc that i disagreed with

i havent seen a convincing case on him beyond "oooh i dont really like this one thing that could be a town mistake i guess but ehh its an easy vote", and definitely no justification for a wagon as big as it is now so soon in the game. it looks like people voting for convenience and going with the crowd as much as anything else, although idk if crowding is really a scum thing or a mislead town thing, but id definitely guess at one scum on there

Well to be fair some of us may be able to have more of a case if he was posting more. That being said, I'm all for his future posts proving me wrong. But he doesn't look good right now.

[acryon]

If it's Kush/Lapsa I think Acryon would be a good bet for the third.

Well your good bets are wrong a lot of the time in my experience. Although I do think you're right on the first two.

I haven't paid much attention to kush since his at l-1 I should do that and btw I am voting lapsa now.

Why have you not paid attention to the leading wagon? Pretty important for you to speak up if you have a real issue with it.

Yesterday I was super busy. Glad to see the activity settled down.
I'll be reading everything today.

As for my defense\damage control, I guess that's an accurate way to describe it. I was trying to be honest with you guys on describing my motivations behind those posts.

This actually feels town.

I'm slightly nervous about how quickly any wagon grows, but I don't know that I've seen someone that appears more obvscum than Lapsa.

VOTE: Lapsa

[acryon]

This actually feels town.

lulz. guy openly fence-sits and you townread in return. what a dumbass

300 felt genuine. It's not enough to make him town, but it's enough for me to wait for more from him. You, on the other hand, we've had more from and it's not good.

[acryon]

tell me about it

-90 is mind-numbingly awful.
-You have repeatedly resorted to personal attacks.
-Remember when we all talked about the whole defending yourself versus being defensive thing, and how one was NAI and the other is kinda scummy. You fall headlong into the latter.
-You actually haven't even placed a vote this game, and your content reeks of making noise and arguing without trying to get anywhere AKA not scumhunting. I know you're trying to make people look dumb, but MO doesn't appear to includes anything close to scumhunting.

[acryon]

@acryon what's NAI and MO?

NAI - Not alignment indicative
MO - Modus operandi (somone's way of doing things)

[acryon]

331 looks like scum trying to act town. I wasn't thinking anything about scum chat, I don't know why you would be. It seems like you are trying to make it look like you only just now know that scum has day chat when that should be obvious to everyone from the beginning of the game. I don't buy that you just happened to notice it, if you were looking at the player's list that's where you're attention would have been. Then you get awfully defensive whereas I think town would have brushed it away as nothing. VOTE: Garmr.

331 does feel bad. I have personally forgotten pieces of the game before, so I don't think someone should be faulted simply for that, but I do agree that 331 felt a bit contrived.

[acryon]

331 looks like scum trying to act town. I wasn't thinking anything about scum chat, I don't know why you would be. It seems like you are trying to make it look like you only just now know that scum has day chat when that should be obvious to everyone from the beginning of the game. I don't buy that you just happened to notice it, if you were looking at the player's list that's where you're attention would have been. Then you get awfully defensive whereas I think town would have brushed it away as nothing. VOTE: Garmr.

Lol you are so bad being scum but first I'm going to lynch lapsa then you.

Do you actually think MURDERCAT is scum?

[acryon]

It's not contrived but you are entitled to your opinion. But do you feel it's actually scummy and how do you feel when you look at my content as a whole?

When I look at your content at a whole, I don't feel like you are scum, but I do understand why MURDERCAT took issue with that post.

Yes I was going to post my gut feeling on him being scum till he ninjaed me.

Were there certain posts that pinged you?

[acryon]

Lapsa is considerably worse than Kush imo

Agreed.

[acryon]

Lapsa case is garbage. bad lynch.

Can you address my points against Lapsa?

-90 is mind-numbingly awful.
-You have repeatedly resorted to personal attacks.
-Remember when we all talked about the whole defending yourself versus being defensive thing, and how one was NAI and the other is kinda scummy. You fall headlong into the latter.
-You actually haven't even placed a vote this game, and your content reeks of making noise and arguing without trying to get anywhere AKA not scumhunting. I know you're trying to make people look dumb, but MO doesn't appear to includes anything close to scumhunting.

[acryon]

That's a misrep RC, he hasn't said Lapsa is town, just that the case isn't strong and it's a bad lynch.

He hasn't said he is town, but he also hasn't given any reasons why the case is bad or refuted any arguments, so it does seem like it's townread based.

[acryon]

Like WTF happened to the kush wagon? He lurks so people just say F it?

It's easier to get scumvibes from content than non-content if that's what you're asking. Kush shouldn't be given a pass for lurking, but I'd rather vote for scummy content than lurking.

[acryon]

I haven't thought about it enough to put into words why I townread lapsa.
I did kind of mindmeld with him about wanting to plynch rc just because of her playstyle.

Ok, you were given a second lease on life and you are doing nothing with it. (1) Put into words why you townread lapsa, and (2) Tell us who you think is scum.

[acryon]

I haven't thought about it enough to put into words why I townread lapsa.
I did kind of mindmeld with him about wanting to plynch rc just because of her playstyle.

Ok, you were given a second lease on life and you are doing nothing with it. (1) Put into words why you townread lapsa, and (2) Tell us who you think is scum.

btw I expanded on my townread of lapsa on my own initiative, not as a response to this. I hadn't even seen this post. I felt the need to clarify that because I don't want to let you think that you can order me to do things.

It's day 1. I have put very little time into this game and I have no idea who scum is. So my life is worth very little to me at this point. I will do what I want, when I want to do it.

Well that's great because I'd rather not have to prod people into things.

But you still need scum reads, D1 or not. Do you normally just throw D1 away?

[acryon]

Jake from state farm, you have first hand knowledge of my scum game. Doesn't it seem like I'm a totally different person this game? That's how it feels.

Oh man, I don't like this post at all.

Agreed.

Autti

Well, a replacement is coming in soon. We don't need to quick lynch at all today.

Why would we ever need to quick lynch. I don't like this phrasing.

Proper catch-up post coming when I get home

this looks like jumping on someone in order to look town.
I suppose I can leave my vote here. My vote is about 80% due to his inactivity.

VOTE: Autti

Ok you actually didn't pick a terrible place to jump, because he has been lurky. But I think I want to hear what he said he would give us in 369 before I make a judgment.

[acryon]

In regards to the Lapsa debate, I don't think it's the most productive avenue to follow at the moment. I don't say this because Lapsa is a town-read as such. Given how many people agree that his posts are scummy, we're at risk of circle-jerking around one player.

I think he's either a) low-hanging fruit for a Day 1 lynch that allows scum to vote-park, inflate the importance of his posts and hold little accountability for if he flips town or b) the 'weak link' in the scum team who is being bussed for town-cred. (as scum like to look 'useful' and would be inclined to jump on scum!Lapsa as they would read his behaviour as scummier than a town would)

I think he provides scum with a convenient opportunity to criticise him either way and reviewing the players who voted for him/ their motivations for doing so is advisable.

The thing is that this is all theoretically true, but I still think it's true that the body of his work is scummier than anyone else.

[acryon]

Funny that you just posted this kush, because I was just about to say how I was initially annoyed by Meseeks and it felt like he wasn't being helpful, but am now really warming to him. He's fighting against people scumreading people for cookie-cutter scum reasoning, which is great because the game is a lot more complex than that. I feel like every game I have to get in an argument with someone about how we are looking for intent, not the person racking up the most boiler-plate scumtells.

[acryon]

I'll admit that JarJar does actually look worse to me than kush right now. Although I still think Lapsa is the worst.

[acryon]

@Mod

I'll be V/LA until morning CST on the 25th. I'll have varying levels of availability, but should be fairly available to post at least for the next few days.[/b]

[acryon]

Holy shit. I expected to wake up this morning to see votes pile up on Mr Meeseeks. It's like people completely ignored what I wrote. Or really they ignored what he wrote.

He said that

he's having trouble distinguishing between some slight newbieness and actual scumminess

Please reread his ISO and tell me that he thinks Kush has done anything except be a good little townie. You don't hard-defend someone and attack people for going after them if you think it's is either bad town or scum.

Like he's defense is just "hurr durr, I called him a slight townlean" And nobody questions him further?



@Mr Meeseeks - please point out posts of Kush's that look like slight newbieness please.

Eh I mean I do see what Meeseeks is actually saying about kush regarding the newbieness/scumminess. A lot of his posts have this recklessness/messy nature to them that can come across as newbie. Sort of the line between "scum wouldn't actually act this scummy" and being actual scum.

My vote is still sticking on Lapsa because he has yet to prove to me he is capable of real scumhunting. This is an issue with wagons dying too fast sometimes. People don't really feel the fire and don't bother getting serious after it falls apart.

[acryon]

Eh I mean I do see what Meeseeks is actually saying about kush regarding the newbieness/scumminess. A lot of his posts have this recklessness/messy nature to them that can come across as newbie. Sort of the line between "scum wouldn't actually act this scummy" and being actual scum.

Yeah it makes sense that YOU'D see those posts and think "Hmmm, is this just noobishness or actually scumminess?" It's how I was seeing kush's posts also. But it makes so sense whatsoever for meeks to think that about someone that he's hard-defended all game long.

You saw that stack of posts I quoted right? We're not talking about some offhand soft defense. He made it very clear that he did not want Kush lynched.

Maybe it's because that's something I've done a lot. If I am torn on someone like Meeseeks has been on kush, I tend to defend pretty hard for a couple reasons: (1) it forces potential scum on a wagon to come up with real reasons for being there, and (2) helps me figure out my read based on those clearer reasons put out.

Spoiler:

I Am Innocent

- townread. very few posts but I like most of em. I really like him going after Kush and Meesks. Feels like legit scumhunting

MURDERCAT

- townread. Pointing out Garmrs Daytalk post reads town to me. I got a similiar feeling when he posted that. Ditto pointing out kush's self-meta. I feel like murdercat is very much on the same page as me this game.

Lapsa

- townread. Already posted my thoughts on Lapsa. Let me add that my 2 top scumreads are pushing this wagon.

Calvary

- slight townread. I like how she came in trying to take the focus off Lapsa since that was consuming the whole game @ that point. would like to see more though.

RadiantCowbells

- Null. played a few games w/ RC now and regardless of alignment he pretty much plays the same. I generally get the feeling that RC randomly chooses who to scumread and then pushes it as hard as he can.

Fire Assassin

- null. He really doesn't say much of anything in his posts though that's kinda the way he played as town in the other games I've played w/ him.

Autti

- null slighly scum. Only 1 post w/ any real content and he spent half of it attacking me which I obviously know is a bad push. Rest of that post seemed bad too. Need more content.

nnn_thekushmountains

Only a slight scumread now cause I don't feel like he jives w/ being Mr Meesks scumbuddy. It's just too much hard-defending. Other than that I've thought he was scummy most of the game which I've posted about plenty.

Jake from State Farm

- slight scumread. For the number of posts he has, there's very little content in em. don't have much more than that

acryon

- scumread. Read very scummy to me earlier and then I kinda forgot about him. Just reread his ISO and he does seem to just go w/ town sentiment alot. Like his top scumreads now seem to be Me, Kush and Lapsa. He has very little thoughts of his own.

Garmr

- scumread. Didn't like the "scum have daytalk?" post. Also feels like alot of his interaction w/ Lapsa is calling him a bad player instead of actually scumreading him. Though I'm pretty sure Mr Meesks is scum and garmr seemed to go after him kind of hard earlier. Though that also makes me wonder why garmr isn't concerned that Lapsa is Meeks top scumread. Also, he's also going hard after murdercat who I'm townreading.

Mr Meeseeks

- Top scumread. Reasons already posted.

This read wall is one of the worst I have ever seen. I don't know if I should say this is scum or town read wall. I just highly disagree with it.

Maybe because it has about half the game as scum. Although having half the game as scum is actually better to me than just having everyone as town. Scum generally aren't too excited to make a bunch of enemies.

Still happy with my vote where it sits.

[acryon]

Spoiler:

Given that we already have scrubs who are saying shit like "final wagons are forming" and "people are tunneling so we should just lynch the player being tunneled" I am going to move away from the main cases and onto this sheep who is content to lurk in the background, spectate the game and go with the flow.

VOTE: Fire Assassin

I've played with Fire off-site and I can acknowledge that his play-style may be different to what I expect from him. (e.g., he clears townies a lot more than he does here, but I get why that's the case and I'm not scum-reading him for not doing that) However, I don't think that's an adequate explanation for what he's done this game.

92 - Votes Lapsa. 2nd vote on the wagon.

I guess a better phrased question would be, anything I should focus on in the last four pages while I skim it?

How haven't you already skimmed it? Its mostly standard RVS, though Lapsa sticks out cause he is trying to get reasons for votes from people and asking a lot of questions. It seems like someone attempting to look like like they are town.

What's the difference between 'someone attempting to look like town' and someone actually trying to move discussion away from RVS? Why did Lapsa's behaviour fall in the former category?

102 and 106 are two examples of posts where he comments on the game but does not relate this to scum-reading or town-clearing anyone. Comes across as complacent and unconcerned about finding scum.

210 - He says that Lapsa has the 'highest chance of flipping scum', implying that Lapsa is his top scum-read...

the counterargument is powerful.

Lapsa was the main wagon....I think.
I don't know, Kush might be scum, I feel more so on Lapsa.
Might need to reread.

...but when Kush comes up as a potential option, he dithers around and never explains why he thinks Kush could be a better option than Lapsa or why he feels that Lapsa is a stronger case at that point in time. Doesn't stick to his guns either, given he later votes Kush 'for pressure'

hmmm.....I am rethinking this actually.
I wonder how much I am misreading by language barriers?
UNVOTE:

Claims language barriers could be causing him to scum-read Lapsa, even though his initial reason for voting Lapsa was because they were asking a lot of questions and 'trying to look town' which isn't something that would change much even if Lapsa was a native speaker, so this reason does not make any sense. If there's any progression in his Lapsa read from 'most likely to flip scum' to 'possible misreading due to language' then we're not informed of it.

Fire, what posts gave you the impression that you were misreading Lapsa? Were there any other reasons that made you reconsider your vote?

Willing to push either of these two right now.

Spoiler alert: He doesn't. The fact he didn't pick a side or make any attempts at figuring out which one of the two is the most likely to be scum comes across as scum who wants to leave his options open.

527, where he switches over to Kush as he is 'fine pressuring this', is a worthless vote. A five year old would figure out that outright stating your vote is for 'pressure' weakens the pressure of that vote. Why he thinks Kush needs

more

pressure after he's been discussed in a fair amount of detail eludes me.

Hey Garmr, how is life going?

Pretty good yourself. Have any thoughts. So is my mason buddy town and who's yah hydra head?

I am thinking JarJar looks suspicious, ill dig into them later.
I am just an assassin man. I don't like defining myself as town or scum. I am just me.

Once JarJar's case gains traction, he considers switching over to them...for reasons. Notice that he's only voted for Lapsa and Kush at this stage - players that have had more than their fair share of the spotlight.

Fire, I'd like you to follow up on that 'digging' through JarJar's posts that you promised to do. You should also explain why you felt that Kush needed more pressure given what had already happened.

On the other hand, I find that 237 (despite exaggerating what Meeseeks actually said) and 535 to be some decent contributions, but his preference to bandwagon and not push anyone outweighs this. This is the kind of behaviour that fits the profile of a lurking scum who seeks to avoid attention and is precisely why focusing on players such as Kush, Lapsa, JarJar, etc, to the point where there's an unwillingness to consider other options is a sub-optimal move.

Discuss.

Also want to say that this post is very good, Cavalry is very probably town, but I'm not quite there on Fire Starter

[acryon]

Why was I replaced while on V/LA which I stated in thread and on my profile...

[acryon]

Back! Going to do a read through tomorrow morning and give my comments then.

[acryon]

Considering I had 20 pages to read through, I am going to avoid a wall and instead just do a sort of stream of consciousness as I read through.
Still feel good about Cavalry.

608 from Garmr is bad. I would give MURDERCAT townpoints for 609 but it’s honestly probably something I would say as either alignment.

Some of the Garmr/Fire back and forth feels bad. Doesn’t feel like two townies. Specifically 616 really pings. Honestly a bit unsure if it feels like Garmr-scum or Garmr-town being led by Fire-scum.

Lapsa still scum (635), which makes me think Garmr is in fact town, since the back and forth between them is hard to accept as SvS.

Jake is giving me bad vibes in most of his posts since my catch-up. 688 is especially bad, but other people seemed to have jumped on that already.

MURDERCAT feeling like town, and I agree with 705 re: Autti, although at this point there wasn’t enough to sway me.

Nevermind on Jake. Exp is town.

I want to say I like Autti’s replacement, but the readslist in 1015 is so backwards from my reads. Not enough time for this today, but town should engage this slot tomorrow.

Lapsa still scum. Not sure how the wagon dissipated, but there’s still time for people to get back on it. Cavalry wagon is horrible. Everyone get off. MURDERCAT is town. No one that has voted him had a good reason at all.

[acryon]

Uggh, can't we just lynch Garmr today instead of waiting till after Lapsa flips town?

Because even in the incredibly unlikely scenario that Lapsa is town, I think Fire is more likely scum than Garmr.

[acryon]

JarJarDrinks (4):

RadiantCowbells, Mr Meeseeks, Fire Assassin, Garmr

Is scum on my wagon?

Probably yes (Fire Assassin), although the jury is still out on you.

[acryon]

Kush, how do you feel about fire? I'd rather vote fire than I am innocent. Garmr > fire > IAI

FWIW, I am theoretically up for a Fire wagon if the Lapsa wagon can't make it, although Lapsa should 100% be the lynch today.

[acryon]

Kush, how do you feel about fire? I'd rather vote fire than I am innocent. Garmr > fire > IAI

Not fire, not garmr.
Garmr is really town.
I trust Garmr's townread of Fire. Plus fire has been reasoning in my interactions with him.

You don't think there's any chance of Fire pocketing Garmr?

[acryon]

Why do you trust Garmr's read so much?

[acryon]

im really sick of garmr vs jarjar.
im really sick of lapsa vs everyone.
They're all 3 of them town lol.

Well everyone can't be town.

My vote stays on Calvary and the way the wagon dissolved feels... ughhh.
I'm not voting kush or Lapsa today.

Cavalry wagon is bad. Get off. Lapsa or Fire.

People who are here, how are we feeling about fire?

not gonna vote fire today

looks like ill have to compromise on calvary because noone is sensible enough to vote kush

VOTE: calvary

Why can't you vote Fire today? How are you more ok with a compromise on Cavalry, but not Fire? Why is Fire town?

[acryon]

Cavalry wagon is bad. Get off. Lapsa or Fire.

Not happening.

Seems like most of the issue people have with Cavalry essentially boils down to the slot being gone. Do you have another reason? Because the wagon seems like garbage.

[acryon]

Seems like most of the issue people have with Cavalry essentially boils down to the slot being gone. Do you have another reason?

Have you read, like,

any

of my posts?

Yes.

I read the one where Cavalry seemed to be your 4th highest scum read. Then it seems like you just had issue with Cavalry overexplaining? And that's the scummiest thing anyone has done this game?

[acryon]

Are you serious right now

Yes. Summarize your key points against Cavalry if it's not that the slot seems to be asking questions but not generating conclusions (which I disagree with).

[acryon]

i think its just a fundamental disagreement on whether its scummy or not. if jake doesnt want to play with someone who gamethrows, he doesnt want to play with someone who gamethrows. simple as that. i have the honest opinion that jake would replace out regardless. i dont think jake would stay playing with someone who he believes gamethrows when he has a fundamental disagreement with gamethrowing, regardless of whether it could be used to his advantage or not.

I agree with this

Me too.

[acryon]

Are you serious right now

Yes. Summarize your key points against Cavalry if it's not that the slot seems to be asking questions but not generating conclusions (which I disagree with).

Okay, so if you understand that part of my reasoning, why did you feel the need to misrep it as

it seems like you just had issue with Cavalry overexplaining?

Because those two aren't actually that far apart? Overexplaining tends to mean you're doing extra explaining instead of doing something else. In this case, that's generating conclusions. So is that it? It also seems odd to go after someone for not bringing conclusions when they seemed to have disappeared from the game altogether.

Pedit: Heavens kush, please spoiler posts like that.

[acryon]

Unofficial Vote Count:

Lapsa (2):

acryon, RadiantCowbells

Garmr (1):

JarJarDrinks,

JarJarDrinks (1):

Fire Assassin

Postie (1):

Calvary

Calvary (6):

I Am Innocent, Postie, Expedience, Garmr, Lapsa, Mr Meeseeks <-- L-1

I Am Innocent (2):

nnn_thekushmountains, MURDERCAT

Not Voting (0):

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

@Mod

I want to second the request for an extension for Cavalry replacement.

I will be around tomorrow and will hammer Cavalry if necessary to avoid a NL, but otherwise I would urge everyone to consider elsewhere. Their overall disappearance I think answers a lot of the issues people have. This just feels like a really bad counterwagon.

[acryon]

im really sick of garmr vs jarjar.
im really sick of lapsa vs everyone.
They're all 3 of them town lol.

Well everyone can't be town.

What is this supposed to mean

The post was saying most of the major wagons were on town, which just seems really unlikely given the content of each.

Cavalry wagon is bad. Get off. Lapsa or Fire.

Not happening.

Seems like most of the issue people have with Cavalry essentially boils down to the slot being gone. Do you have another reason? Because the wagon seems like garbage.

This isn't a real thing.

Agree to disagree I suppose. There are plenty of players who question a lot before coming to a conclusion. If Calvary disappears for whatever reason, that conclusion never comes. It's like saying there wasn't an end to someone's story that they walked out in the middle of telling. You can say that there isn't an end to the story, but maybe there is and we just didn't hear it because they walked out before they got to it.

Calvary made 23 posts, most of which were wall posts with several paragraphs of content. You'd think there'd be

something

of substance in there.

Ok, but for Calvary-scum, if you are going to post that much content, why would it not end with you jumping onto one of the many voting spots that seem to be available?

If only there was some way of increasing the amount of time in the day phase so we could wagon Firebringer instead, that would make everyone happy.

Let's go.

VOTE: Fire Assassin

we're not wagoning firebringer jfc.

Why not? It is infinitely better than the terrible Calvary wagon.

acryon, lapsa isnt getting lynched today

just vote calvary, we can get a decent lynch tomorrow

Everyone knows this Calvary lynch is trash. Only chance I'm voting Calvary is if it's to hammer to avoid a NL.

[acryon]

Acyron looking scummy to me here.
His defense of calvary is over the top.
This is at least the second time he's mentioned voting calvary to avoid the NL. This feels like he's playing the pro-town card.

Join the club of every person ever that has thought I was scummy D1 for hard-fighting a terrible wagon.

acyron, thoughts on iai? Are you willing to join that wagon?

Not likely. Feels like lynchbait.

[acryon]

Okay.....then Acryon is ignoring you?
Like, all I see is a meta case on Postie.
The only thing I think is suspicious is the fact she said was explicitly holding out a read on you. Though I thought that would be a weird thing to do for her scum version of play.

My issue with Postie isn't a meta case. Postie's reasoning for voting Calv is bad, and the way she acted flabbergasted when I was questioning her on it pinged. Do you think the way she replied felt genuine?

[acryon]

VOTE: Postie

This is also infinitely better than a Calv lynch.

[acryon]

UNVOTE:

Intent still there, but no reason to have someone quickhammer without a claim.

[acryon]

vote is staying

sorry rc, i understand your logic, but this is nasty

this is the second time i feel postie has acted like something didnt exist and then when questioned backpedaled a little and gone "i, uh, actually meant i didnt agree" and i cant let it slip

We are not lynching a claimed PR D1. If she is scum, we can figure that out as time goes on. If she is town, she's most likely dead tonight.

[acryon]

Still no way we lynch a claimed PR.

look

i can tell you exactly what is going to happen

we dont lynch postie today and instead rush, unthinkingly wagoning someone else
postie probably fails to get any significant result and isnt killed
we lynch postie tomorrow

and that is entirely regardless of alignment

Even if this is a 90% chance, it's not worth the 10% chance that leaves us horrifically lynching a claimed PR on D1.

[acryon]

Can we just ban Lapsa from the thread because he is clearly just trolling at this point.

That claim from Garmr was absolute trash but I think it was genuine.

Still no chance I am voting claimed gunsmith at this point and I'm not sure why any of you are either. Literally anybody else is a better lynch right now.

[acryon]

Do you not know what someone claiming Cop means? It means that one of the claims is baloney, because no way is both a cop and gunsmith being placed in a fucking NORMAL game!

This should give you all of the reasons to vote a claimed Gunsmith for crying out loud, at the very least if she's telling the truth it finds us one scum!

Are you saying you believe Lapsa's claim??

[acryon]

gdi acryon you pissed me off so much i used proper grammer

Look at Lapsa's ISO the last few days and tell me in what world you believe that to be a legit claim and not just trolling.

[acryon]

no i mean garmrs claim

garmr claimed cop

postie claimed gunsmith

two investigatives

a normal game that is balanced

SOMETHING DOESNT ADD UP HUH

Are you kidding?

[acryon]

Not voting Postie who has 4 votes.

Garmr and Calvary both are at 3.

Willing to compromise on garmr to save a un-cc'd GS

I think I'm here as well, although I'm not at all excited about a wagon on either of them. I'll be around so I can switch to Calv if things are moving that way.

VOTE: Garmr

[acryon]

Do votes after deadline but before thread lock count?

Generally no.

[acryon]

if garmr is scum he deserves an oscar for that performance

Agreed, but at least we aren't lynching a PR.

[acryon]

if garmr is scum he deserves an oscar for that performance

Agreed, but at least we aren't lynching a PR.

we don't know if we're lynching a pr.
It might be very hard to prove that claim true or false.

Of course, but with Garmr we

know

we aren't, which is better than not knowing.

[acryon]

Postie hasn't actually been CCed then has she?
But fuck she's so scummy.

If she was town here she'd be jumping my ass and nailing me to the cross. The way she's rolling over in response to pressure just feels so bad.
Like I've seen her sort of fold inward in response to pressure but this doesn't feel like that and I feel like she's deliberately trying to emulate that right now?

Ok but then lynch her tomorrow if you feel that scummy on her. Because if she is town and she gets lynched today, then there is zero chance of any information from the PR. If she survives until tomorrow, she can at least provide a result that will mean something when she does flip.

[acryon]

Didn't expect to come back to this after a single day.

After reading through, here are my conclusions:
-I think it's best to not overthink this too much; that's how PRs end up getting outed.
-Unfortunately a bit too much damage has been done already, but at least it feels like it's pretty clearly Postie-scum here.
-Meseeks is town, although maybe taking a step back would be best, because setup-spec is a dark place.
-Irch/RC scum-team idea seems crazy. They both feel very much like town.
-Lapsa really really felt like scum, but I don't have a good reason to not believe Dwlee's claim, especially if it answers a missing kill. Gotta slot him as town.

I'm going to hold my vote for now, but consider me a firm vote on Postie.

[acryon]

I trust RC's reads generally.

Me too, but not on this one. Meseeks is town people.

[acryon]

because right now your choice is between LITERALLY CONFSCUM TO YOU postie and THAT GUY WHAT RC THINKS IS SCUM mr meeseeks

and you chose the latter

The idea of letting both claimed-GS's live isn't horrible, but it better be for the sake of lynching someone more likely to flip scum than Meseeks.

[acryon]

Who then?

I'm not thrilled with any of these, but JarJar seems most likely of the remaining feasible options, with Maxous next (I didn't like Fire Starter, although Maxous has done some to redeem the slot I think). Both still more likely scum than Meseeks if we must skip a Postie-lynch.

[acryon]

and ive played with kaintepes for chrissakes

I do really enjoy that he jumped into enough games that most people were able to play with him and now share in that.

[acryon]

- Ircher supposedly knows for a fact that Postie is 100% scum.

- Postie is a hammer away from being lynched.

- Ircher tries to derail the wagon.



This is mafia 101 people. Scum will ALWAYS try to delay their own lynch as long as possible.

Yeah, this actually isn't bad at all, but is that enough to make Ircher scummier than Postie to you?

[acryon]

They know that a postie lynch today means the next 2 lynches are Ircher>RC.

Lynching Meeeks (who I'm sure is town) adds an extra day to that timeline.

I agree with this.

[acryon]

Sorry work has been busy today. I'm going to take a look at things tomorrow morning and make my points then.

[acryon]

They know that a postie lynch today means the next 2 lynches are Ircher>RC.

Lynching Meeeks (who I'm sure is town) adds an extra day to that timeline.

I agree with this.

completely inconsistent.

What is inconsistent? Lynching Meeks seems like it would almost definitely just add another day to a timeline which already guarantees us scum in two shots.

So looking over things again, I see two major ideas we need to compare to determine which is more likely along with the context of each player. For one, I already thought Ircher was town and was unsure on Postie. Then we measure the likelihood of Ircher's agreement to not lynch postie being done as town versus the likelihood that there is a mafia RB and they happened to block Postie. While what Ircher did does look pretty scummy, 1) he ultimately wasn't the one to propose it and 2) I

can

see it coming from town.

Vote is staying where it is.

[acryon]

Stupidity isnt a scum tell. We're lynching postie.

Exactly.

[acryon]

Thought my vote was here already actually.

VOTE: Postie

[acryon]

Looks like there's already been a hammer, but may as well get my thoughts out while I can.

It's meaningless anyway because scum would want a lot of cover with both of their teammates getting fucked over without escape. So basically what acryon (and I to be fair but I'm town) did.

What are you saying I did?

at least iai is borderline conftown

iai is definitely conftown.

Based on memory tho I'd say expedience and me seeks are likely town.

Reluctantly agree on expedience, and agree normally on meseeks.

[acryon]

my gut wants to say that jarjar is a decent candidate for being scum, what with postie faking a guilty on him

Huh?

Explain how postie faking a guilty on me in any way points to me being scum.

It doesn't, and no point in putting any stock in that fake-guilty IMO. It's strictly WIFOM.

[acryon]

This is going to be very hard for town to lose. We can still miss one lynch and have one no-lynch before LyLo, and best to use the no-lynch second since using it today would leave the game the same minus one confirmed town.

I honestly don't have any great reads at this point, but my feelings go like this:

Town

Expedience
Meseeks
MURDERCAT
Maxous
JarJarDrinks

Scum

Top two I am very confident on. MC I am fairly confident on. Maxous and JJD I am not very confident on.

P.edit: Regarding those quotes, 1) I don't think they are actually contradictory and 2) they are 200 posts apart, so if you don't expect my feelings and reads to adjust as time goes on, I don't know what to tell you.

VOTE: JarJarDrinks

As I said, not very confident in this, but seems fine for now.

[acryon]

Then we measure the likelihood of Ircher's agreement to not lynch postie being done as town versus the likelihood that there is a mafia RB and they happened to block Postie.

And what does he mean by "they happened to block Postie"? As if blocking the claimed gunsmith would be a coincidence or something. I feel like this is acryon trying justify a scumread that he should not have had.

There was just no good reason to think postie was scum.

What? How was there no good reason? I already had suspicions of scum!Postie, whereas I felt the Calvary slot was town based on things earlier in the game. As I mentioned, Ircher also wasn't the one to propose it; he just agreed with someone else's idea, which made it look a lot less scummy for me. Plus there is the general circumstances. scum!Postie had a lot more scum motivation to claim when she did then theoretical scum!Ircher did.

[acryon]

There was just no good reason to think postie was scum.

watch what youre saying

Sorry but how in the world can anyone think that scum claiming gunsmith in a game w/ an actual gunsmith can happen?

As has already been discussed, if the scum-team has a doctor, then it would seem fairly likely that there is an actual gunsmith.

they are 200 posts apart, so if you don't expect my feelings and reads to adjust as time goes on, I don't know what to tell you.

Reads change sure. That wasn't a read. It's game theory.

- You're saying that lynching OUTSIDE of 2 claimed gunsmiths in favor of someone else is an ok play
- You then say Ircher looks scummy for suggesting it
- But you still vote postie (and don't give a very good reason for doing so)

Ircher looked scummy for suggesting it since it

would

theoretically add an extra day to the timeline in favor of scum, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's a horrendous townplay. It

is

possible that a play can have benefits for both town and scum.

[acryon]

What? How was there no good reason? I already had suspicions of scum!Postie, whereas I felt the Calvary slot was town based on things earlier in the game.

Yeah I had my suspicions too. In fact I still wanted to lynch postie on day one and YOU were one of the people arguing against it.

But all that changes once Ircher claims. Especially after he wanted to delay the lynch. I don't get how u can think postie is scum anymore @ that point. Just too much of a coincidence IMO.

Of course, because we don't lynch an un-CC'd PR the day they claim. I'm never going to do that. And if the issue standing in my way of lynching Postie was that she was an un-CC'd PR, why would you not expect my view on her as scum to revert when we had a CC?

Good analysis's from Max.

I agree with this.

[acryon]

Yeah we did. nevermind.

Postie, claim?

UNVOTE:

Intent still there, but no reason to have someone quickhammer without a claim.

Mafia have daytalk, and Postie claimed PR

So that means that if they are scum it was a concerted effort to bus Postie and then make sure there is a claim.

I don't feel so great about acryon being scum otherwise when I look at it from the perspective of Postie / RC scum otherwise but NO ESCAPE!

It's really more of a "this isnt as obvious as i thought" thing though.

The posts of interaction with RC reminds me of when I was scum with him and I would just make a lot of disagreeing posts yet not scumread him at all.

I tried to read ISO's and the essays that people wrote but I'm just not up to this really.

We can kill him to check so yeah

Also Maxous for what it's worth I would definitely believe the CC there if I was there even if I was scumreading them like I was Ircher, also kush did the same thing just before.

NOTHING MATTERS KILL

Can't really argue with you on this since it's more of a gut thing, but if you look at any of my games you'll see me backing away from potential quickhammers. You are clearly town, so let's figure out who the scum is. You're looking in the wrong place, and town is currently in a very good position so I'd rather not see us blow it.

[acryon]

UNVOTE:

would like to hear from MC.

He should be back from vla today and I do really like max's case

Yeah, to be honest I don't have a great reason to keep my vote on you right now.

UNVOTE:

[acryon]

Yeah I think MURDERCAT is still town.

[acryon]

Here's where I am right now:

JarJarDrinks
Mr Meeseeks
Expedience
Maxous
acryon

so I'll

VOTE: acryon

because of my analysis above. I need to look again at everyone though.

How exactly does your list of comments equal scum!me? And if you're referring to your VCA, then how do you deduce me as scum when you and I literally have the same numbers for each group? Don't get lazy here.

[acryon]

Notes on acryon and scum interactions:

- Acryon is RC’s first legit vote for saying RC was scum in a game with acryon but then RC “wasn’t feeling the vote” and moved off as more pressure mounted.
- RC didn’t want to talk about his acryon vote with lapsa.
- “Acryon is a good bet for 3rd scum” - RC
- RC “isn’t lynching acryon day 1”
- Acryon is a scum lean from postie
- Acryon and I are scum by POE - postie
- RC isn’t voting acryon because of V/LA
- acryon argues with postie about the cavalry wagon
- RC drops acryon as a scum read in 1227 and includes postie
- acryon still likely scum from postie
- on day 2 postie drops acryon from scum list for no clear reason

I'm just not sure how any of these equates to scum!me? Just feels like you're falling into confirmation bias, because you didn't actually make any analysis on why any of these actions are scum-scum interactions.

[acryon]

To clarify, compared to other people you were voting with scum much less often. That applies to me too of course but I have the luxury of knowing my alignment (maybe you do too?).

I know mine, and our being fairly in-sync throughout the game led me to believe you were likely town. And based on the results thus-far, we were a lot more correct than others.

[acryon]

I'm not sure what you are talking about, I've had a pretty poor game in my opinion.

I mean maybe you can call it luck, but you literally just showed that you and I voted with scum the least.

[acryon]

Results matter and I didn't lynch postie twice.

That's true, but at the very least it shows your mindset wasn't bad for good chunks.

[acryon]

Also nobody should've lynched Postie the first time and I'll stand by that.

[acryon]

I liked that meeseeks is with postie and RC alone on a wagon at one point. I really doubt all three scum would push the same wagon alone.

Agree. Meseeks is a pretty strong townread for me.

Someone tell me, is RC crazy enough to push/bus both partners on day 1? And is postie someone who would scum lean her partner? I'm having a hard time figuring out what to make of the interactions with acryon.

I wouldn't put anything past RC personally. Never played in a game with Postie before this game, but she does feel like someone that would scum-lean her partner to be honest. Didn't feel like super experienced scum.

[acryon]

Hey guys, normally I wouldn't be V/LA until Friday night, but actually had a death in the family so I am actually going to have to go in a little while until Monday morning CST. I'll try to pop on here and there, but unsure how much at this point.

@Mod: V/LA until Monday morning CST.

[acryon]

Eh that's game. Frustrating that a death in the family had me V/LA and unable to actually talk my way out of it (which I always do). The reasons many had for voting me were actually terrible.

Warning: Salt incoming.

VOTE: Acryon

We've never played together where I've been scum?

VOTE: Kush

Not really feeling my Acryon vote.

There's no RC posts between these. RC literally caught someone lying and did nothing after as pressure from others mounted.

Like how is that caught lying? Clearly I just misremembered. What benefit would someone ever have for lying about something like that, and RC would look horrible if he pushed on that and I would expect anyone to call him out on that if he had actually pushed something so stupid.

I didn't notice it at the time but yeah I can see why people pushed acryon out of the gate today.
He kept SAYING postie was scum on day 2 but he never really pushed the lynch hard. And then subtly tried to encourage JJD to go after Ircher without him ever going after ircher himself.
He also didn't vote Postie when Postie looked like possibly losing the 1 vs 1.

Lack of vote was because I didn't want to put Postie to L-1 to avoid a quickhammer (which I stated clearly), and you'll see me do that in every town game I've ever played.

Annoying that this town just moved forward with crappy reasons on someone who was V/LA and got lucky with it. That goes wrong 9 times out of 10.

[acryon]

Like how is that caught lying? Clearly I just misremembered.

MC isn't exactly saying you're scummy for lying/misremembering. He's saying that RC acting like he caught u in a lie and then just ignoring that read makes you look bad. No fault of urs there.

Well no and that's the point. It isn't scummy at all for him to ignore it. Any sensible player I think would ignore that, since it makes way more sense that I just misremembered and you would look like an idiot pursuing something like that as RC.

Pedit: Right, and I think that's why I'm frustrated. I don't think many towns would compromise lynch there. Just didn't make sense to from a town standpoint.

[acryon]

That plus the VCA made me vote for you. Mostly, I just honestly couldn't see anyone else being scum.

Yeah and I can't fault anyone for that part. Even looking at the game myself from town eyes I had a hard time reading any of the players left as scum.

[acryon]

I think it's very hard to win in the situation you were in so I wouldn't be too upset about it.

Yeah I think I was just frustrated to feel like I didn't get a real chance to defend myself because of factors outside the game.