Newbie 1734 - Happy (Game Over)

[Raskolnikov]

Hey it's infinity and kydney.

VOTE: SooPinkminniegum97
Pink is a shade of red

[Raskolnikov]

Well shit.

[Raskolnikov]

Alright, RVS it is


VOTE: Raskolnikov

For misspelling my name

Would you prefer kidney? :V

[Raskolnikov]

Realtalk. Now presenting the 2016 entrance awards.

Skold
Gamma Emerald
Infinity
Magibass
Lil Uzi Vert
kyndy101

(yes this is a serious sorting)

[Raskolnikov]

Infinity has been very frequently posting in another game. Thoughts?

This doesn't mean anything unless it's a lot more extreme like over the course of a few days. It especially won't mean much now that you brought it up this early!~

[Raskolnikov]

Hey it's infinity. I haven't seen you in forever.

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No response to my joke? I thought it was a good one

[Raskolnikov]

It works both on an inactivity-related level and with regard to your name!

[Raskolnikov]

2016 entrance awards, edition 2

Skold
Gamma Emerald
Magibass
Infinity
Lil Uzi Vert
kyndy101

[Raskolnikov]

tbh I don't think this going to move until more people come in.
I have been playing mini recently though so I might just not be used to going back to small lists like this.

[Raskolnikov]

tentative reads, actually.
Gamma you seem really eager and relaxed which I like.
Skolds entrance post+vote and especially unsolicited comment on scumtells I actually love tbh though I might be overvaluing.
Infinity's engaging on me which is right given our history though he's not quite as relaxed as I'd expect.
Rest are just rvs posts though magi seemed a tad eager.

[Raskolnikov]

This is probably the furthest I've ever gone squeezing the most out of a game this early

[Raskolnikov]

No? Tinsy bit town eager. Comparing rvs posts is splitting hairs though since it's kind of gut and feeling at that point.

Ehhh not really. Maybe? You were kind of treating me serious like as if I was a stranger, idk.

[Raskolnikov]

VOTE: kidney

fluff when there's actually things to comment on at this point

[Raskolnikov]

EST

Lil lumping kyndey in with gamma and infinity with regards to scumhunting doesn't make sense

VOTE: Lil

[Raskolnikov]

@Lil explain

[Raskolnikov]

IMO kydney mostly came in and posted irrelevant to thread goingons rather than seem interested in participating. We were all talking about actual (tentative) reads and she kind of wasn't though her tone sounded eager.

[Raskolnikov]

At that point gamma, infinity, me and skold voted things with at least a basic reason vs kydney just RVS and fluff but you pointed out gamma and kyndey as the people who stood out in wanting to look for scum.
I don't get it.

[Raskolnikov]

(directed at lil...)

[Raskolnikov]

Liking gallynukes readlist for town. Somewhat familiar with kyndy and I like the impetus/effort she put in this early though I don't use the same kind of reasoning and don't reach the same conclusions.
Lil's answer was okay.

VOTE: Skold
I don't know if your complaining legitimately or in a lamist way but you haven't done much but stifle what other people are doing.
What do you hope to accomplish like this?

It looks like you're interested in infinity but then why not engage him or go into that some more? Anything that does anything.

[Raskolnikov]

WTF you can't just not play the game though
HEY GUYS IM JUST GONNA SIT OUT DAY 1.

[Raskolnikov]

DONT MIND ME, GO ABOUT YOUR BUSINESS, LET ME KNOW WHEN THERE'S A FLIP

[Raskolnikov]

I'm going to policy you out of principle if you play like this.

[Raskolnikov]

Okay since this is a newbie.

Day 1 is usually the most important day of a game. Often town does end up lynched at the end because there is so little information to work with, but the multiple wagons rising and falling plus reasoning people have given behind their actions allows a ton of analysis there with regard to the flip. It basically sets up the entire rest of the game so a strong day 1 has its own inherent value regardless of flip.

Sitting out day 1 entirely is bad because
a) you're saying you don't care about lynching scum on day 1. Even if d1 scum flips are less likely than town they're not that uncommon and the benefit (in terms of winrate) is huge.
b) it's defensive and selfish because you don't give anyone substantial content to read you off of, similar to lurking.

It's subjective whether this makes him scum but both of these are straight up anti-town.

Him pushing this as he does is kind of more absurd than anything else given it also draws a lot of attention to himself, but this shouldn't be allowed for game health if nothing else.

[Raskolnikov]

But I like lalaland bullshit mafia LITE

[Raskolnikov]

Skold if everyone did what you did how would the game go anywhere though?

[Raskolnikov]

Can you not even agree in basic principle that it's somewhat selfish and to even self perpetuating?

[Raskolnikov]

Okay, say you're town. 9p game 7 town 2 mafia.
Assume every town pushes randomly, but mafia don't push partner d1.
7:2 pushing if everyone influences the game VS
6:2 if one town sits back d1 and doesn't try to influence.
Which is more likely to land on scum? Pure/provable random lynching AFAIK is actually against site rules.
Even if everyones going in whatever dumb directions, the less town are influencing or leading the decision the less likely you lynch scum period.

But like even disregarding all that it's just terrible to encourage this in a newbie game of all things...

[Raskolnikov]

UNVOTE:
Bah humbug. I hoped to draw out the worms, but none of gally lil gamma are particularly objectionable.
I actually lean town on skold and would want nothing more to prove him wrong.

[Raskolnikov]

@mod may I suggest for clarity indication of how many is required to lynch, or otherwise l-1s?

[Raskolnikov]

Infinity are you scum?

[Raskolnikov]

@Gallynukes your scumread on gamma is essentially because he dropped too many votes and wanted to get something going? Can you go more into why that's necessarily malicious, especially this early?

[Raskolnikov]

The transition between 67 and 69 is unnatural to me; 67 is focusing on Rask, but 69 is a naked vote on Infinity. Looking at the context provides no more light on the situation, as SKOLD was the only poster between the two. Skold wasn't even writing about Infinity, and I find it implausible that Gamma made a skold-infinity mix-up

again

farther into the game.

Uhm. I ISOed him and it looks like not too long before that vote he said he scumread infinity, apparently based on activity. Mentioned a few times.

I don't understand the aggression against Infinity in 82, and the reasoning is weird.

I don't think you saying this is AI, but FTR he's actually right here. Explaining a townread when unnecessary (person not in a position needing defending) is giving up information for low benefit and degrades the use of whatever tell it is (because it's out there and seen now).

Gamma then has a conversation with Infinity that imo isn't very alignment indicating, however then Gamma states that Rask and Infinity could be mafia with little input from the other players beforehand. There was no good reasoning for either accusation, and the previous reads of his were Skold being scum (heavily implied, from the voting etc), and a random vote on Infinity and a terribly-reasoned vote on me.

If you actually look he at some point justified every vote though?

As for 97, I find it unlikely that scum would do a buddying / distancing dynamic that early on.

This post by gamma actually could be bad, but not for why you say it is. The thing is coming out with a distancing/buddying read COULD BE a kind of low effort way to cast doubt on both slots, although if anything there is some basis to him being interested in that given how earlygame was. 100 is him admitting its a complicated situation though and the question at the end is actually good because it feels like he is trying to figure things out.
You point out what he says is unlikely but I don't think saying unlikely things or even being wrong is necessarily AI vs motive.

I don't agree with the logic in 100. Terrible voters logic in 113, terrible logic continues in 115.... all of this leads me to heavily lean scum on Gamma. Therefore, VOTE: Gamma for now.

Mmm. The vote does look lazy but the explanation is okay (it being pressure motivated, in other words). Voting someone to get their attention is actually extremely effective from my experiences.

From what I've seen you did ISO him but didn't read too in depth and missed a lot of things. Particularly keeping track of what he says about each player none of his votes are really mystery ones (although you can disagree with his logic, and could argue his reasoning is scummy, you can't say there is no reasoning offered when there was).

Now idk if this even bad from you because on the game as a whole you gave a lot of thoughts and did split effort between every player that posted, but I usually see people don't skim their strongest scumread iso without trying to figure it out a bit more. I'll look into it.
But for now I await your response. I want you to respond in depth to my points, whether you agree or disagree with each and why.
VOTE: kyndy

[Raskolnikov]

@Gamma
Policy lynches are easy wagons to hop on and scum usually either
a) hop on in a lazy way
b) stay off, but do so conspicuously. Example is saying they're strongly opposed but not showing it with actions (looking apathetic). Or changing the read.
kyndy was a little close by townreading him to then not liking his posts but I'm not sure it's significant enough. I don't really know how to read the unvote thing and how she thought she had him voted.

[Raskolnikov]

Lil's jump onto l-1 would be pretty bad if there was a VC posted before it (and the previous one wasn't inaccurate) but I was finding it confusing myself keeping track this game... I might actually be too naive with newbies but it's just not quite enough.

Gally and gamma look town whereas he's kind of null with the trust thing from earlier I still don't get. Probably my 2nd choice to wagon tbh.

[Raskolnikov]

*obligatory buddying accusation

[Raskolnikov]

I have a few questions about votes. It seems votes are somewhat used to point a finger of suspicion on this site? If so, why? Wouldn't pointing fingers lead to less scenarios where one accidently puts a player at l-1? Not that it matters for me personally right now since Skold has moved past the suspicion stage for me but just for future reference.

You can use FOS if you want it's still good. Usually people have enough trigger discipline to either announce l-1 or notice when it is l-1 but it actually is a little dangerous in a newbie specifically; there are occasionally accidents... and "accidents". Although the real harm moreso than the lynch (I don't particularly care for skold even though I townlean them) is that it would cut day 1 far too short.

[Raskolnikov]

Lil what do scumread right now beyond skold?

[Raskolnikov]

OOoooo

Hi zyf
You didn't replace in just to play with me right?

[Raskolnikov]

This is really interesting actually... I remember sort of watching one of your games after.

You were making those awesome read spreadsheets and I was like wow this is so pro-town zyf is obvtown here again... and then I checked in later when it ended, hah. Still, you fooled me there.

What particularly triggered me was how you put everyone as strong townreading themselves in that graph

[Raskolnikov]

I think you're townreading me pretty hard considering I ultra defended your top scumread earlier. Not to mention I've been, if anything else, extremely chummy up to and including now

[Raskolnikov]

I bring this up because you say gally's scummy by association but if you looked at any associations with gamma I should've been the first thing you noticed.

[Raskolnikov]

@Gamma can you summarise your zyf scumread? In one post, ideally without quotes, going into detail.

@Lil thoughts on gamma v zyf? Did you get anything from that massive exchange?

@Inf we diverge here, I think. Zyf coming as he did is making this approach too-many-(x)s territory...

[Raskolnikov]

Also jesus christ I feel like I replaced into this now.
The game was too slow before but now the thread literally doubled yesterday... please can we condense future posts when possible. For the sake of my mental health

[Raskolnikov]

LOL. X was townreads, I didn't want to say that directly after the previous two questions as they'd look a lot less innocent... personally I prefer what I get if one's guard is down. Thought infinity would infer it based on context.

The mad triggering though

[Raskolnikov]

Zyf all your case essentially did for me was make feel good about your alignment, however you play the game and read very differently than me.
But even so your entrance makes me waver on gamma if only because it's a stronger read and I don't feel comfortable having too many this early...

Gamma's answer to me directly is pretty short itself but with how he addressed zyf today overall with other posts I do think it's an genuine scumread.

[Raskolnikov]

Mmm. The FOS on me actually makes sense if you misinterpreted what I said as a cowardly scumread.

The reducing of your gamma scumread based on support is complete nonsense (scum would have more support?) though, even though I even agree with the conclusion you make that justification is absurd.

[Raskolnikov]

Gamma's answer to me directly is pretty short itself but with how he addressed zyf today overall with other posts I do think it's an genuine scumread.

Speak in alignments please[/quote]

X was townreads

Is it really so hard to understand this?

Also thanks for answering the triple-asked theory question

Holy shit impatience.
You know if you're gonna ask a hundred questions at least don't be a dick when it takes a while to get everything answered.

[Raskolnikov]

But it's still a horrible scumread from a logic standpoint

LOL do you not remember our game at all? The best logic used in game that was from me and smith.

[Raskolnikov]

yes
it is hard to understand

Basically you came in as strong as you did but the downside was it was making me uncomfortable having that many townreads.
So among them I was reconsidering the older ones including gamma how much he believed his read on you vs if its reactionary (which only lasted all of a few hours though considering today).

[Raskolnikov]

VOTE: Lil
I'm most interested in this right now though. Option for subtlety is gone at this point since I had to spell it out.

Lil I want your thoughts on all of this now.

[Raskolnikov]

that's a lolhammer
killing the lolhammering mofo was perfectly logical

If you wanna reduce the entire game to that then okay, the point is good use of logic doesn't equal town. I have other games I could bring up.
Bad logic becomes a scumtell when it's so bad that it's no longer believable that the person themself believes what they're saying (which is a lying tell not a bad logic tell). IOW you think their view is fake.

[Raskolnikov]

@Skold+Rask-Is immediately being aggresive upon replacement scummy?

Scummy as in, do most people think it's scummy? I don't know, I don't think people generally have any problem with it. If it's really over the top it'll get looked at as possible counterwagoning to whatever is going on atm but people treat it pretty much the same as it'd be from a non-replacement.

Scummy as in actually scummy? I think replacing gives scum a good opportunity to play apart from the rest of the game which gives them low responsibility for their actions. I do think scum are more likely to case someone new than joining a popular wagon coming in since it has some advantages and they are put in a position with full flexibility that allows them to do that. Still, it's not more than a rough indicator I think.

Your replace aggressiveness on the other hand I like for a few things though it'd probably be bad to go into it.

[Raskolnikov]

I'm not going to explicitly explain why the way zyf replaced in is good while we have 2 pending replaces, of which at least one IS scum barring one of my townreads being wrong.

[Raskolnikov]

@Gamma asking for sheeping and hard pushing is actually a towntell because it's essentially taking on extra responsibility and attention, not to mention ideal scum scenario is actually being on a wagon that doesn't go through for obvious reasons.

[Raskolnikov]

I'm not going to explicitly explain why the way zyf replaced in is good while we have 2 pending replaces, of which at least one IS scum barring one of my townreads being wrong.

your townreads have a pretty high chance of not being perfect right now
purely mathematically AND statistically

So cheeky... do you automatically assume I'm a bad town player because you played with my scumgame?
Obviously mathematically and statistically is WORSE than reads unless you assume the opposite (that someone is so bad at scumhunting they're more likely to vote scum by rolling dice). Which is probably something skold would say
Also even ignoring any townread accuracy the pure chance just one of the replaces is scum is significant enough for the principle to hold, though tbh I forgot combinatrics.

You keep doing this thing where it's like you disagree with a detail of something but don't contest the point I make and it's like WHY

also what are your thoughts on Kyndy and their readslist? afaik the last time you explained your SR on them was because they were primarily fluffposting, but that was pre-list.

I can say this because she's gone now! From meta I've seen kyndy is really lynchbaity and even surface-level reads or shallow game pov isn't necessarily AI for her. Which is why I wanted her to answer my questions... I think she's the type you have to pressure to see her actually give something indicative or reveal her fake thought processes (although you have to be careful what's actually relevant given how she pretty much always looks scummy on the surface) but so much for that. The slot's still nullscum for that entrance but I'll have to pretty much start over reading the replacement. It's still worth looking at for me though if only because of the townreads elsewhere.

[Raskolnikov]

Okay, I get the sheeping bit now. So what was that you were saying about me having town read power position?

When multiple people are TR-ing you strongly you hold the position to sway people's thoughts more than others because they trust you more

The general theory is true but I don't think gamma is a good example of this... people also have to believe in the slot's proficiency :v

[Raskolnikov]

Wtf don't confuse me with infinity. I did not talk down ANYTHING of what you did or said you were even overconfident. Just that I didn't personally agree.

[Raskolnikov]

And literally everything I said is "this is interesting and I'd like to wait for further data before making a conclusion". Do you assume I'm confident in my reads because I'm confident with how I'm speaking? Because that's not really how it works.

What makes you assume everything is set in stone? That I have the game solved? I have townreads and so I think it's worth focusing on the people I don't have townreads on.
If I get more townreads I'm going to revisit and consider if one is wrong! If not then not.

I play this game in mostly a townhunting manner, not a scumhunting way so if you have a problem with poe you have a problem with my playstyle as a player.

[Raskolnikov]

that was a few hours ago you phrase it as if its been days

[Raskolnikov]

OOOoo this is actually fascinating to me personally

So I never directly make a list of "people likely to fool me" but every read I do think of one thing, which is
how good of an actor is this player/how potentially good is their scumgame.
And the higher that level is the closer that read will generally have to stay to NULL... so for example someone like nachomamma who is god scum could look towny as usual and I would feel uncomfortable ever RULING THEM OUT.
Convincing townyiness from 5 year veteran who's won scummies = still null, same read on a slot that the performance is impossible from = really good read

The best reads for me are therefore on people who don't just look towny, but who you can feel comfortable won't be able to fake what they're doing there.
In general for lategame/hard poe and when you get into final "game solving", I like the approach of guilty until innocent where unless there is reason to believe a slot is definitely NOT SCUM, it's never really removed from consideration, even if it's a nulltown or a townlean when there's other stronger scumreads.

Of course early you have to make concessions and try to be efficient, but we're talking lategame with this.

[Raskolnikov]

Well it's stylistic, not an objective truth in "what is the right approach" or anything.
I personally have to rely on what I do and try to do things purely analytically because my gut accuracy is pretty bad... some people can just look at someone and feel the scumminess and somehow judge alignment with a pretty good accuracy from that. Bastards.

even though it shouldn't be AI and people try to be aware of that, a lot of times subconsciously it affects their reads
this is also true of lots of long posts (not wall wars, I'm talking LOOOOONG paragraphs for like 60+% of your posts)

Yeah this is back to the old pro-town/anti-town vs actual alignment thing. I still think it's useful judging newer players on the logic that they'd be less comfortable as scum being that involved in the game, but outside of this queue or those players it ends up being more style indicative than anything else.

[Raskolnikov]

Well I think you're in the minority tbh. If you want to be really technical we can't actually have more than shallow or anecdotal discussion on these things unless someone were to go perform comprehensive statistical analysis. Quality of posts would be hard, but maybe just a basic average number of words per day alive vs alignment and see if there was any correlation. And the funny thing is even that would only speak to the past and through its own exposure kind of invalidate itself for the future. In his own way skold is technically right though he's still being selfish for what he's doing here and a total jerk in how he expressed it.

I wish I could go back to the game but there isn't much to do now other than wait I think.

[Raskolnikov]

Well that's boring... No impetus.

Also I take it you have offsite experience?

[Raskolnikov]

@Gally: Welcome aboard friend! Feels good to have another active voice. And yeah it's frustrating posting from such a small limited device. That and the fact that everyone seems like they know what they're doing is making this pretty tough for me.

Thanks man!

I'm in a similar boat actually. Laptop in the afternoon but phone for mornings and nights. Somebody really needs to make a mobile bbphp app that simplifies the board interaction process on phones.

And don't be too overwhelmed, man. Just take it all in, enjoy the ride and go with your gut. Just make sure your gut never gets tunnel vision cuz shiz can change on a dime in this thing.

This is the closest thing I could find to something about gally's activity and it doesn't really fit tbh.

Lil why do you assume gally was busy when he didn't say anything about it?

[Raskolnikov]

gally never mentioned it...
i wonder where that came from, b/c it couldn't have been a scum PT....

Was gonna disagree but that's actually true in this instance because gally was a replace.

[Raskolnikov]

@mod

can we get a deadline extension because of all the replacements?

[Raskolnikov]

VOTE: Zyf

The gamma approach was decent but it feels like you're really stretching for this lil scumread.
This is more tonal than anything else else but I question how genuine the sudden extreme conviction is.

[Raskolnikov]

Infinity I'm fairly convinced you're town here unless you're literally catering your play to manipulating me and me alone, which as a read has never failed me so far.
Which is actually funny because if you do scumread me it would probably be through the opposite and a healthy dose of paranoia.

But I would like to hear what you have to say if only because it'd probably be fairly interesting.

[Raskolnikov]

which as a read has never failed me so far.

Just to clarify what this means, I've had this on BBT once in a newbie, creature once, and ranger at a certain point.

[Raskolnikov]

I am back, sorry for inactivity.

Infinity is town, I would put my (this game) life on it.

[Raskolnikov]

ZYF no response to my thing?

You said you were paranoid and had gut uneasiness but it disappeared?

[Raskolnikov]

I think this is one of zyf/bbt (not both) with grendel.

Give me TIME to go into why infinity is town. Please back off l-1 if possible.

[Raskolnikov]

BBT's case

The vote thing I felt, as with the rvs discomfort which I said something to that effect. But I don't think that's significant enough vs the rest of it.
Infinity literally approaches this earlygame how I do, parallel to me, in a way where he like does the things I'm thinking of doing next but ahead of time, it's actually fucked up. I knew going into this game he had similar a approach but he has NOT ONCE acted in what I'd think is "bad faith" or trying to misrep something or do anything malicious.
I don't think BBT's position is that bad though, town BBT would react similar to getting voted upon replace I think. He takes any reaction like that as a scumfirm and has confbias tendencies.
The pocketing thing is wrong here though. With IC flaked infinity and I did talk theory but the townreading here is NOT MALICIOUS. If anything infinity would try to appease what are the biggest threats I think, but he argued with zyf over gamma and didn't really build bridges with me. I get the feeling he doesn't care what my read on him is whereas I'm not sure if zyf has been trying to appease me.

Overall it isn't even bad it's just wrong in this instance. As for BBT himself I know he can fake a push on this level and it's too early to tell there for me.

Infinity

Aside from the other things literally no one seems to care about infinity not dying apart from me (and lil who I'm pretty sure is town now), but I guess that's not something you guys would care about. Grendel wasn't involved but that's literally where infinity is positioning to push and I just know it's not a fake process.

The jist of it is infinity CANNOT be scum here unless he IS manipulating me personally WHILE acting like he doesn't care on the surface AT THE SAME TIME. And he'd be extremely good at it as well. I'm not doubting something this absurdly unlikely especially day 1. I can tell you for a fact infinity isn't stupid either and HE KNOWS this process looks terrible whereas staying on a wagon for easy reasons would be a far better looking alternative. He has no reason not to do the latter because no one understands the former without mistrust. The only reason he's doing it is because he has to for honesty and to tell the truth. Because it's the non careless approach that actually ends well if taken all the way but fruitless until then.

Please back off of this and give me some time. I know I've been neglecting this game (this site, in all honesty) but if you townread me to any extent give me some time, I'm here now.

[Raskolnikov]

I really think zyf is a significant lead despite his earlygame (he does admit himself his full activity isn't AI though and should be separate from the read on him).
Zyf my problem with you is how true your switches and changing of opinions has been here.
I don't really know how you changed your mind on gamma and whether it wasn't just out of necessity because he wasn't a viable lynch.
The thing you said about him not being scum because of all defending him didn't make sense and on the way out of that read you still tried to toss shade; I don't actually the thought process of you changing that read and going onto gally.

In general every time you had a chance to throw something at someone you took it and made each thing to not even be bad but like as terrible as you could make it sound. I don't think I've seen you (maybe it happened but I missed it) point out something to someones favour apart from agreeing with townslips which is probably the most shallow way imaginable.

I don't know how you were uncomfortable about me and actually pointed out several things against me or expressed uneasiness I was playing to you and doing similar thing as our last game but it like vanishes around when I voted you. If anything I think you might be trying to appease me here.

In general I think I see zyf in the position of greatest flexibility with outs on every townread if he wanted to (leaving sort of breadcrumbs which he could go back to) and I don't buy the backing off of scumreads as necessarily natural.

But I will admit this, because of low time and motivation I have not researched this as much as I would like and kind of rush this out for the situation. Ideally I would have done this a while ago while there was more time but I kind of squandered that. Still, with everything I know now I'd feel better lynching zyf than infinity even with no further info.

I wanted to complete this with a meta eval and everything else but I just couldn't get there, though even as a whole idk if it's worth spending that time on a day 1 choice.

[Raskolnikov]

The main thing that bothers me about zyf is his attitude towards his scumreads and even anyone he points out anything scummy about; it's like over the top anger at them which I fucking don't get.
I think it's the attitude you have if you know someone is town but screwing up so you treat them like VI almost and want to lecture them instead of treating them as scum.

And yes Lil everyone jumping on infinity no fucks given without questioning bbt is lol.

[Raskolnikov]

Talk about what to do when you flip, when int is actually put on. Until then update your reads list, and explain why BBT other your other nulls you haven't excluded from PoE. Eenie meenie miney mo?

BBT's push on me doesn't look genuine. He's calling for a lunch before he's caught up, and his case on me twists things as scummy without considering town motivation.

I will say this though, BBT does that as town too. He also likes to blame mislynches "it's their fault for acting scummy" and take credit on a flip flop "I knew that guy was scum at one point even though I lynched the other guy".

Our styles are diametrically opposed with him literally hating the idea of gathering more information and content before doing anything; whereas the only strategy that has ever taken me anywhere has been constant reconsideration on new variables.

Considering gamestate trying to figure out BBT all over again this game before d1 deadline would take too long though.

[Raskolnikov]

I will however gladly lynch BBT over infinity strictly because I'm confident in the latter's alignment even though I have no clue what BBT is though.

[Raskolnikov]

Everything is happening so fast and when one thing is addressed there's like two more...

[Raskolnikov]

I am going to feel like a total idiot if I just hard defended scum though. That is the real price being paid I guess.

[Raskolnikov]

@inf I feel like gamma was different because he had more than enough issues to justify that conviction on him. Lil jump was weak as fuck and the same reasoning to hate him there works on skold and kind of us.

Stuff like really going as far he could in making "omg you suggest policy lynch!" to paint people as super scum this game I feel isn't right from him.

[Raskolnikov]

Hi zyf!

[Raskolnikov]

Idk. I really don't see any evidence to suggest zyf would have left any of his wagons if he didn't kind of have to, if you know what I mean. Like how do you buy any of them; if town backs off they have some clue as to why they were wrong or the slot has changed on new evidence, but zyf like doesn't really retract the past problems he pointed out but like leaves them there and gets off for idk why.

[Raskolnikov]

@inf
I haven't actually looked at gallynukes for a while but him townslipping over and over again (or playing to that effect) is weirding me out.

Last time I looked at lil I was convinced town but I'll have to retrace my steps to explain why.

[Raskolnikov]

Zyf you were 100% lil scum and changed your mind, how about you go into that?

[Raskolnikov]

Wait where's the vote post rask?
Like i legit didn't see it the game was moving too fast.
(I'm assuming it wasn't a naked vote and i have something to respond to)

Woooooow

[Raskolnikov]

This game is absurd. I guess I have to check out that ongoing even though it's a ridiculous thing to even consider.

[Raskolnikov]

Rask seemed to be unfazed by my apparent distrust of him

I don't know what to make of that

Comes with experience, i'm pretty sure

Also i didn't even really pick up on the distrust so

Didn't play it up enough I guess

The real fucked up thing is I kind of predicated it around when zyf came in because at that point I started to have too many townreads. In fact if you didn't start to at least worry or have some paranoia about me (given what you've seen from me prior) we'd probably have an issue about now.

[Raskolnikov]

*predicted not predicated, although I guess the latter sort of works

[Raskolnikov]

Infinity can you see any of my points against him now?

[Raskolnikov]

All that said I agree with the above about not voting bbt though

[Raskolnikov]

Zyf go ahead, ISO me and respond.

Everyone else I'd actually like some zyf votes.

[Raskolnikov]

I want to dissect this list and push further but I'm so fucking exhausted from this past hour.

[Raskolnikov]

@inf
I mean zyf is pro-town enough that waiting for d2 (and possibly certain ongoings to end) might even be worth it, assuming I don't DIE tonight, but the alternatives kind of suck.
Grendel gives literally nothing and strong arming BBT on a weakish kyndy read is ehhhh.

The latter is looking more likely now though, I'm not sure a single person is even willing to do zyf.

[Raskolnikov]

Jesus christ this is 46 pages.

[Raskolnikov]

Meh, odds are zyf is going nowhere no matter what I do. Promise if I die to look a lot more closely at him and second guess him in my stead though, I don't/can't really follow the ongoing logic but I really don't see how something outside of here would go that far confirming him today.

I'm looking at the votes.

[Raskolnikov]

So what's interesting is BBT never actually voted infinity, everyone just hopped on really eager while BBT made his catchup.
I'm not actually sure what to make of that in particular because even though he personally positioned to reconsider via claim and hearing my defense he kept encouraging everyone else to vote and intent (he could've done intent himself?)
I guess he'd be waiting to finish but the split between wanting to lead a wagon and get the claim while simultaneously holding his own vote catching up is really weird; it's a mix of impatience and holding off which doesn't work together so well. Admittedly overall this is still mostly poe and weak read on kyndy but the only actual alternative while infinity is dead set against zyf is probably returning to skold and actually not really fair to bbt in the chance he is town.

Also in speaking of wagon dynamics the super eager turn from sheeping him to be willing to lynch him from zyf/gamma is kind of wtf but there is some sideline noise; the people not already voting aren't positioning to vote as was the case for infinity. Zyf's hypo on inf town (if inf town then skold is bad!) and turnaround on infinity is pretty gross while I'm seeing it again FTR.

Crucial thing is I don't actually see bad associations with zyf or skold which would be really worrying at this point (I don't think zyf vote on bbt really counts).

VOTE: BBT L-1

@LUV if zyf unvotes ("he's still catching up!!") I want you to please vote in his place on the wagon considering what you said.

[Raskolnikov]

UNVOTE:
BBT we have to talk actually.

[Raskolnikov]

Zyf how does a VT claim completely invert your read? You know scum sometimes claim VT right? I just don't follow the momentum of the claim giving you such a 180 from scumread to top town off of that.

[Raskolnikov]

I'm actually having a reads crisis at this point.

[Raskolnikov]

I don't get it though. Why do you even scumread BBT now when you just came off his wagon? You literally agreed with his push before you didn't.

[Raskolnikov]

But that's whether you decide to lynch someone or not.
You're putting him at the top of your readlist because of the claim? Did all your problems with him before just disappear?

Explain BBT and infinity read more.

[Raskolnikov]

Since i trust the claim, i /really/ don't like the fact that even with the wagon diffused, interests changed, and a claim that (i think) is trustworthy, bbt thinks we should lynch infi.
Like wtf.

This is so fucking shallow though. I trust the claim and he doesn't so he's... scum?

Why do YOU scumread bbt.

[Raskolnikov]

Since i trust the claim, i /really/ don't like the fact that even

with the wagon diffused, interests changed

.

What's with this and the Gamma unvote reasoning either (people defended him therefore hes town), I've already pointed that out earlier.
Wagons vanishing and resistance is either bad or neutral since mafia have a partner who probably isn't going to bus d1. Now that you know this how does that affect your perspective?

[Raskolnikov]

In fact all of your townreads are on like purely theoretical technical things which is so weird.

Gamma and infinity on wagon diffusion, infinity again and skold via claim. Skold before the claim for the same reasons as everyone else but taken further (and angry at the early wagon on him).
I don't know how your read on me even evolved; you treated me as town while bringing up "ooh gut suspicion scary" but your actions to me directly have been more or less treating me as town the whole game.

Most people when they townread people actually see something genuine within them and feel a little bit of trust towards them. At least once even if some of the others are on technical bs. I don't think you have had a natural townread on like anyone.

And again your scumreads are more having problems with what people say and criticising them than like you actually like weighing them. I can't follow your scumreads on infinity or bbt AT ALL and lil was really stretching, I straight up forgot what gally was. Gamma was so plausible because he had so much surface level mistakes but everything else.

[Raskolnikov]

The case on me is really weak, it's based on some early game posts that could be scum-motivated, but could also easily be (and are) town-motivated. You guys are sheeping scum who hasn't even caught up with the thread.

there's more shit than just early-game posting

i'll consider him scum immediately upon your improbable flip as town

you're being pretty soft for someone who's at L-1 and is town.
and at the same time refusing to claim

What was this zyf? What were all the problems you had with him that left when he claimed?

Nice setting BBT up for suspicion if inf flips town too btw. You have cast shade at every single person this game at various points regardless of your read you had on them.

[Raskolnikov]

Hey handing out townreads for technical reasons like you do for everyone is OKAY... when you have scumreads. If you're actually in the position of "I was thinking out loud about how i no longer have any direction to find scum" what you do is start to second guess and doubt some of the weaker things.

[Raskolnikov]

You read like comfortable and nonchalant in how you act while your actual position if you're town (based on what your saying) you SHOULDN'T be.

[Raskolnikov]

I like you Skold.

noted for tomorrow if somehow infi flips town
because this is a sudden read change.

BBT answered this and you retracted but COME ON.
You don't believe in a wagon if you're saying out loud all of the things that should happen with the opposite flip.

[Raskolnikov]

Okay if you want to cooperate.

1. Why were you scumreading infinity? You said it was on "he was buddying me like rask did" but how he treated you differently from how I did earlygame I don't see.
2. What's your full read on BBT?

[Raskolnikov]

Even right now you're like maintaining a strong townread on me while at the same time saying how bad it is I scumread you now when I townread you earlier.

[Raskolnikov]

I'd argue they don't make sense beyond the surface either.

Also whenever I saw his name then

[Raskolnikov]

And it wasn't an unproductive bonding experiece between you and me; it was you furiously trying to explain to me that i was being stupid in my sr on gamma

Uhm. That was infinity? I barely defended gamma at all, I don't generally defend people who aren't actually in danger of being lynched (and gamma wasn't).

[Raskolnikov]

And it wasn't an unproductive bonding experiece between you and me; it was you furiously trying to explain to me that i was being stupid in my sr on gamma

Uhm. That was infinity? I barely defended gamma at all, I don't generally defend people who aren't actually in danger of being lynched (and gamma wasn't).

Idk what you're referring to then.
If you're talking about when i said hi to people that's just pleasantries
I mean can you /seriously/ draw any AI information from grendel and gamma saying hi in a friendly way if they've played together in the past?

nvm, I misinterpreted the original point.

[Raskolnikov]

Alright fuck it.

VOTE: BBT

Zyf if you are scum you passed through sheer endurance even though I still don't follow any of your reads.

[Raskolnikov]

The thing is realistically it actually doesn't (and seemingly never did) matter what I think of you because literally no one else doubts you or even CONSIDERED any of my points. Every single person brushed it off.
But now I've made enough noise on this people won't forget. Lategame those could go back to this if I'm gone and you're alive in lylo or whatever, I've done as much as I could and pretty much "due diligence" so to speak.

But even so the response is at least half satisfying.

[Raskolnikov]

You don't actually know what throwing shade means.

[Raskolnikov]

You don't actually know what throwing shade means.

Unofficially indicating you scumread someone while saying otherwise?

Ah, but what I'm saying isn't inconsistent with anything I said.

I brought up a lot of problems with you and after our exchange I'm partially satisfied, but still don't follow your reads and also recognise going further is more or less pointless.
I'm not ruling you out as scum by any means but what I've done should be a barrier to you winning if you ARE scum and I'm not around later; essentially I could at least say I did everything in my power in the worst case scenario.

Throwing shade OTOH is a sneaky way of making someone look bad without committing to it; pointing out something as scummy in a really shallow easy way or trying to sabotage one's reputation through cowardly means. I don't think I have been by any means subtle here.

[Raskolnikov]

I like how this day 1 is longer than the average complete game.

[Raskolnikov]

This is the second time I stayed up for this game
Later

[Raskolnikov]

I hate it when you stay up long enough to get hungry again... the most inconvenient thing ever

[Raskolnikov]

Fake. BBT there's no way you make that judgement after last game.

[Raskolnikov]

You know, infinity was actually technically hammered when he was taken to L-1 because skold had his vote there.

[Raskolnikov]

This will greatly anger whichever of zyf/infinity IS town but I actually agree with bbt if he's town and if I can believe last game BBT said he never trolls in these scenarios.
I've felt pretty bad about my defence ever since I made it and in general this game fills me with disgust. I thought about replacing out a few times now but I never want to do that unless absolutely necessary.

[Raskolnikov]

ISOing skold after he hammered he had voted infinity from RVS, but it seems VC error hid it.
I think it actually doesn't count tbh.

[Raskolnikov]

TBH think what will happen is BBT gets lynched anyways, I doubt hammer via VC error counts when it's clearly unintentional (whereas BBT's hammer was intentional).

I wish this claim came out before hammer because I might have (I'm not really sure) have unvoted. BBT scum feels he 100% dies here with VT claim and would almost have to claim PR.
Which I think is a little different from the situation earlier but I'm not sure how to describe it.

[Raskolnikov]

For every single thing I've said all game about zyf, infinity and lil, inf/lil actually makes sense. Zyf I can understand if you hate me this game now if your town.
I know this sounds godawful a turn at this point... my play here has been pretty terrible I think now.

[Raskolnikov]

Well on the bright side no PRs were outed today!

[Raskolnikov]

If anyone is spectating this game they now have BRAIN CANCER

[Raskolnikov]

Well played guys. My reads were garbage this game, so it's really lucky I got killed night one.

[Raskolnikov]

Cop claim would definitely have been better from grendel, giving skold freedom to bus or not and even if grendel loses it would have been conftown zyf deciding between inf/skold in 3p. Probably still a loss for them but oh well.
Alternatively a JK counterclaim would more or less accomplish the same thing and perhaps be more believable as a CC.

Nice play gamma, inf, zyf.

[Raskolnikov]

I wanted to play a game where I never hard claimed. I was really mad when you guys decided to popcorn, and decided to break sequence so I didn't get screwed by the two scum counterclaiming before I even claimed.

It's probably not a good idea to risk the game (lylo only takes 1 misplaced vote to lose) just because it would've been cool not to claim.
You can win a game without claiming in a more safe way if you get one game where you lynch scum before reaching LYLO though.

[Raskolnikov]

Rask, iirc your PoE pool wasn't too terrible.

High five for PoE buds!

I really hate how in both of our games I was convinced you were town and then later backtracked on it.

[Raskolnikov]

Yeah, my bad on the Infinity push.

Was good to play with you again Rask.

Was it really?

Also jesus, zyf is over a 1/3 of the posts in this game. Zyf+gamma combined, about half. Poor infinity having to sort through all that in lylo

[Raskolnikov]

is my level of participation really that surprising to you, rask?

Well. I thought it was different the first time because that was your first(?) game and maybe you came from real-time mafia where games last a few hours so the pace was from that or something. If I'm being honest I think it could be going too far and the turbocharged pace here could drown some people out or demotivate them. But I guess that applies to scum too. To each his own, though.