Newbie 1764: Wind Game Over

[Accountant]

VOTE: Gamma Emerald
Choo choo! That's L-2!

Sorry for the lateness. I will post my IC rant in a bit.

[Accountant]

Actually, I like the Gamma Emerald wagon(for reasons other than the fact that it's a page 1 wagon, that is). His enthusiastic tone seems forced.

@Pep: I like early pressure wagons. I think it's a great way to kickstart the game and get the ball rolling, as well as teasing reactions out of people. What about you?

[Accountant]

Hi, I’m Accountant, your friendly neighbourhood Inexperience-Challenged player, or IC. This means that I have a few games under my belt, so I know the ins and outs of mafia and can show you the ropes. For those of you who hate reading long rants, or have read a similar post already, check out the link:
A Beginner’s Guide to Being Awesome At Mafia
Anyway, as the IC, it’s my job to teach you theory concepts, which means I will never lie about theory questions. Ever.
Before we start the game proper, I’d like to cover a few key concepts.

Hammering, Lynching and L-1

When the number of votes on a player exceeds half the number of players for that game, that player is lynched

instantly

and the Day ends. For example, we have 9 players. If that means the hammer is 5, so if there were to be 5 votes on someone, that player would be lynched. Do not recklessly hammer, especially early in the game, or you’ll risk accidentally lynching town members and cutting short discussion time.
The concept of L-X is used to indicate how many votes a player is to hammer. L-1 means 1 vote to hammer, L-2 means 2 votes to hammer and so forth. So for this game, if someone were to get 4 votes, they would be at L-1. When you place the vote that puts someone at L-1(for example, if someone has 3 votes and you’re putting the 4th vote down, with a hammer of 5), you should usually announce it with a statement like “He’s at L-1”, so people don’t accidentally hammer. Even more importantly, it means that mafia can’t hammer a town member and then claim ignorance the next day.
If someone is at L-1 and you want to hammer him, you should usually state “intent to hammer”, which means “I want to lynch you”. When you do this, you can also ask for a role claim. That way, if the player is a power role being mislynched, he can claim before you place the hammering vote, and thus save himself.

LyLo

LyLo is the shortened form of a phrase which means “lynch or lose”. The simplest form of LyLo is 3 players, 2 of whom are vanilla townies and the last being a mafia goon. Then, it’s easy to see that if they do not lynch, the mafia goon will kill one of them at night, stalemating the lynch the next day, and killing the last town member on Night 2 – although the mod will usually recognize this and end the game early instead of dragging it out.
When town is in LyLo, it’s important not to carelessly vote like you would on any other day, because of the potential for a mafia coordinated hammer(a “quickhammer”, happening before anyone else can react). Let’s say we have LyLo with 3 Vanilla Townies and 2 Mafia Goons. One of the vanilla townie carelessly puts his vote on another VT. This allows the two mafia goons to instantly rush in and simultaneously vote that VT, bringing his vote count to 3 in a game of 5 players, which is a hammer and loss for the town.
It’s good practice to try to recognize LyLo situations when you see them, but in Newbie games a more experienced player will usually point out that it’s LyLo and caution people from recklessly voting. Learning how to deal with LyLo is a very important part of playing mafia, and it comes up more often than you might think.

RVS

We are currently in the RVS, or Random Voting Stage. As none of us has any idea who is mafia(well, except the mafia members themselves, but they’re hardly going to admit it), we’re mostly poking around and slinging votes like hot curry at a food fight, trying to provoke reactions, start a discussion and basically probe around to try and determine player’s alignments.
As it is the

Random

Voting Stage, it’s common for players to vote for very silly reasons, such as “your avatar is ugly” or “your username has too many numbers in it”. Don’t worry, they don’t have a grudge against you or anything. It’s just part of RVS. Without RVS, it would be a lot harder to get the game moving.

Conclusion

Thank you for joining this newbie game, and I hope that all of us will have fun playing, win or lose. If you have any questions at all, feel free to ask me. I’m an IC, so it’s my job to be active and respond to questions from newer players. I live in Singapore, which makes my timezone GMT+8, so don’t be surprised if I answer in the middle of the night or appear to be inactive at high noon(I’m probably sleeping).

Have fun and good luck!

- Accountant

[Accountant]

You were enthusiastic in the genuine "let's get this show on the road" way, not the current "!!!" way. It's often easy to do the latter while trying to fake the former.

@ny: What were your reasons for trying to post a reads list so early in the game? I'm not asking you to justify it; I'm asking you to describe your mindset and what you were hoping to achieve with it.

[Accountant]

hm, it's hard to choose, only 1 vote and 8 people i would like to vote

What, really? You have a scumread on every other player in the game?

[Accountant]

What makes you think I will be doing all the work? Heck, nydushermain has already begun generating content, though I question the validity of a page 1 reads list. Still!

Why do you townlean Gamma though? I can definitely understand nullreading him, but he hasn't done anything that couldn't be trivially faked by scum.

Also, @Rancius and nydushermain, you two might want to consider grabbing an avatar. It helps people easily pick out who's saying what, so it prevents mix-ups.

[Accountant]

@Van: Why are wagons scummy? Since Town cannot kill at night, we can only hunt down and kill mafia members by wagoning and lynching them. Furthermore, one of the best ways to hunt mafia is to exert pressure on them. In a calm environment, mafia can blend in easily, but in an environment where there are lots of threats and pressure, mafia are more likely to slip up and make a mistake. In this case, wagons are a useful tool to generate this pressure.

I think wagons are way more useful than they are harmful. So how can they be scummy?

[Accountant]

I agree wagons without good reason are usually scummy, except of course in special cases like RVS. However, can you clearly explain why a wagon full of sheeps is scummy? Are town more likely to sheep scummy wagons?

[Accountant]

sheeping (following another player's vote with your own) a scumtell

I won't deign to answer for Ramcius, but I do not believe this is sheeping. For example, if someone said they were the Cop and that X was scum and voted them, and I voted X, that is not sheeping. I think sheeping would be where you vote a player not because you think the reasoning they are scum is strong but because you simply want to vote someone, or you trust the other person who voted them.

[Accountant]

You are in position 3, primacy and recency don't apply there, so it would be the easiest place for scum to hide and avoid attention right? I thought that was why wagons are or at least can be scummy. That changes if it is a confirmed scum wagon though which this certainly isn't.

owo

I agree that scum tend to want to hide in the middle of wagons on town. However, the mere fact that someone is on position 3 in a wagon does not indicate that the wagon itself is scummy.

[Accountant]

if you give them semi-good reason, and scum have easier to fake some reason to call someone scum on slip, town are more reluctant to call someone scum, no town want push ML wagon, while scum know exactly they are pushing ML wagon and they are more confident in doing so

This looks okay on paper, but in practice that's not what happens. Since role assignments are random, townies are not a homogenized group - there will inevitably be aggressive or bullheaded people selected as townies by the luck of the draw. These aggressive or bullheaded people are likely to then push wagons fearlessly on people, without caring whether or not it's a mislynch. Or perhaps it's not either of those traits, it's stubbornness; the town member isn't afraid to push wagons without fear of mislynch because they're absolutely sure that the target is mafia.

Or perhaps scum are very shy and do not dare to do something bold like lead a lynch on someone who will flip town. Or they want to blend in and don't want the scrutiny that the leader of a wagon on town gets.

As you can see, there are lots of different playstyles, so it's extremely shaky to call someone town or scum based solely on something like "whether or not they pushes a wagon". What we can do instead is look at the wagons themselves and see if they are supported by sound reasoning.

[Accountant]

@Van: Do you agree with my post 45? Why or why not?

[Accountant]

If you distrust all wagons on principle, what is your suggested method of lynching scum?

[Accountant]

Oh, this is my error. I mixed you up with Van, who apparently distrusts all wagons.

Well, that's not an unreasonable stance. Being wary of sheep wagons is only natural. But why do you completely discount the possibility that sheep wagons may be on scum? Consider: perhaps a confident and skilled townie finds who they think is scum, town sheeps them, and then the target is actually scum. That doesb't sound that unlikely.

It's also interesting that you think I'm setting you up. Firstly, what makes you think that? Secondly, if you really think that, why haven't you voted me?

[Accountant]

Ramcius is probably town. 61 has the type of paranoia I see from newbtown a lot, especially newbtown who's terrified of being schmoozled by scum(see his speech about how we should be wary of scum trying to lead town into mislynches).

@Van: So, to be clear, you think that forming lynches on players is okay, but you think mindlessly hopping onto wagons is bad, right?

[Accountant]

@Ramcius: You say Charloux is trying to get towncred, and this is scummy. Why is it scummy?

[Accountant]

I'll post more later when I have a bit more time but something that sticks out the most to me is how passive accountant is being. Accountant has the highest activity it seems and is asking a lot of questions but none of the questions don't really seem to me like someone scum hunting. It gives off a "I'll just ask these questions for the sake of asking them" vibe. I feel like a town that found so many odd things (or at least I imagine accountant's thought process is "oh that seems odd"), they would've at least made a decent set of reads. It's like an offhand attempt to bury people. Really odd to me.

You are correct that I'm asking question without following them up with strong reads. Let me clearly explain why.

Firstly, a lot of these questions are asked not because I want to know the answer, but because I wish to provoke thought about the way the game works in the minds of the people I'm asking the question to. For example, if I ask a question like "given that wagons create pressure and pressure helps to catch scum, don't you think that wagons are a good thing?", that is an attempt to make someone think. It's not because I want to actually know the answer.

Secondly, a lot of these questions are theory related. Because the theory of mafia is consistent across all games, everything to do with discussion of theory is completely null in my mind. A player with a question about theory(or a wrong conception of mafia theory) is just as likely to be town as scum. Therefore it's impossible to read a player based on theory discussions. Given that the past few pages have been mostly me talking about theory so that everyone's on the same page when we start scumhunting, it's definitely impossible for me to come up with strong reads based on that.

Thirdly, a lot of what I am doing right now is trying to get into people's mindset. Ramcius is paranoid. Gamma is enthusiastic. Mewtaph is trying to game-solve. Some of these things are indicative of certain alignments. Some are not, but they help me understand where a player is coming from so it's easier to determine their alignment in the following posts. Scumhunting is not about blindly applying a set of scum tells to a game. Rather, it's about truly understanding players, taking their posts in the context of that understanding and then determining if that context and that kind of posts stems from the mindset of someone who is pushing a scum agenda or a townie who is trying to gamesolve. For this reason, nothing pops up to me as immediately strongly indicative of town or scum(with the exception of Ramcius' post, which I have already pointed out), it's natural for me to try to understand players on a deeper level so that I can more easily determine their alignment when we progress into the later stages of the game. You can think of my questions, therefore, as "setups" to scumhunting.

There are two points in your posts that I wish to refute. Firstly, you claim that I would find many things odd. I'm not sure where you got this impression. This is a very standard start to a newbie game, and nothing has popped out to me as particularly odd or out of place, with the exception of Gamma's over-enthusiasm. Secondly, you claim that I do not have a decent set of reads. Again, I am not sure where you got this impression. I do have quite a few reads - specifically I read Gamma as slightly scummy, Ramcius as town, and Charloux and Mewtaph as moderately townie. Granted, these are not complete or particularly strong, but it's unreasonable to expect very strong reads on page 3.

[Accountant]

The way acc says "Since town cannot kill at night, we..." makes it seems like acc is trying to blend into town by saying "hey guys we are town." Normally, I read this as not alignment indicative but it's some sort of mental inconsistency that bothers me. When you're in this type of mindset when you're posting, I feel like you stick with it and say "okay, since I am town, when I say town, I say we and when I say mafia, I say they" but acc says mafia four times consecutively (as in without referring to another person again), and twice acc could've said "they" as a replacement for "mafia."

Why do you attribute this to a mental inconsistency as opposed to it simply being the way I like to post? There was another user on this site, iraonvp, who had the habit of always referring to certain alignments as "x-aligned". For example, he would never say things like "So-and-so is scum", he would say things like "So-and-so is scum-aligned". You could easily use your argument to say that this is indicative of iraonvp having a scummy mindset - but this is simply his posting style, so it's definitely not indicative of alignment.

I think that it's not a good idea to try to generalize about the mindset that people have about the way they use English, and especially not to draw conclusions about their alignment based on it. Sure, if I have a habit of always saying "they" when I am town and only say "mafia" when I am scum, then it's fine to scumread me for this. But in this case it's just the way I like to speak.

[Accountant]

I am playing under the assumption that if you're asking a lot of questions, it's because you're curious as to why people are doing such things. Maybe the word "odd" was the wrong word. Mostly, I felt weird that you were withholding the information you were gaining from asking people said questions and their responses. Maybe I skimmed over it a little too hard because I was tunneled on a read I had on one of your other posts.

While I'm flattered that you think I'm that good, there is no secret treasure trove of hidden information that I have obtained from a 3-page conversation about sheeping wagons that I am hiding from you.

There is no change in perspective. I refer to townies as "we" or "town". These words mean the same thing. Similarly I refer to mafia as "they" or "mafia". Once more, they mean the same thing. If I use one synonym over the other, it does not mean anything special. The choice is arbitrary.

[Accountant]

I disagree. Charloux did not say that you are rolefishing. Charloux assumed that you intended to obtain the list of roles in the game through claiming - because that is the only way to get such a list. In this case, he did not try to say you were rolefishing, but rather just said that it would be stupid to claim immediately. If Charloux was scum trying to frame you, don't you think he would have directly called you scummy, and voted you, rather than simply saying it was stupid and that we couldn't do it?

[Accountant]

This is incorrect.

A common-sense interpretation of the sentence:

"If we outed the roles now who do you think would be killed during the night?"

Tells us that Charloux was not directly accusing you of rolefishing, but rather pointing out - albeit in an unnecessarily hostile manner - that what you propose is unfeasible, because it would lead to PRs getting killed during the night. Note the use of the word "we" - of course, Charloux wouldn't be accusing himself of rolefishing, so it's more likely that he is speaking of the town as a whole outing the roles. In other words, he is criticizing any course of action that might lead to town as a whole outing their roles, rather than accusing any single person of participating in a scummy action. Do you see the difference here?

Note, too, that Charloux definitely did not vote you for rolefishing. This is the given reason for Charloux voting you.

I don't like your though process. You think we should treat you as confirmed town and everybody who speaks to you is scum. I'll go on a limb here and say you are using an alter-ego in this game, or you are just bad with pressure hence taking an aggressive approach to fend off any potential attacks on your slot.

Thus, Charloux makes a few substantive accusations against you:

1) That your thought process is scummy.

2) That this is due to scum trying to adopt an alter-ego, creating an inconsistent and shaky mindset.

3) That if 2) is not the case then it is due to you, as scum, knowing that you are bad at dealing with pressure and pre-emptively attacking people who might exert pressure on you.

This is the crux of why Charloux voted you - that's why he wrote it in the post immediately before voting you. After seeing this, I think it's unreasonable to leap to the conclusion that Charloux is voting you for rolefishing. If you want to continue asserting that Charloux is attempting to frame you for rolefishing, you'll have to show two things: a) where Charloux said that you were rolefishing and b) Where Charloux said that he was voting you due to your rolefishing.

[Accountant]

UNVOTE: Gamma Emerald
I don't know why everyone decided to jump on the bandwagon with me, but I don't feel comfortable with having someone at L-2 on page 3 while we're still basically in RVS. Will be back with some thoughts on the game so far later, a bit busy now.

What makes you think we are in RVS? Quite a few substantive accusations have been thrown around.

[Accountant]

I believe that what Accountant is doing is provoking people to show there true self. Questions in mafia are not asked for people to get answers but to see reactions. Ways they answer are hints to who they are. Tho this can also be used as a great protection. Xe almost talks like all his actions till this point are all made in the benefit of town. While other members are showing some motives and are even demonstating there playstyles, Accountant is being calm and collected, asking questions and then leaving them at that, without taking actions or persuing people who he belives are not town to further pressure them.

FoS: Accountant

I think that your statement about me talking like all my actions are made in the benefit of town is not a good reason to scumread me. It is not a good reason to townread me either. Suppose I were town. Then all my actions would definitely be made in the benefit of town. Thus, I would talk that way. However, if I was scum, I would want to fake being town, so I would also talk that way. Therefore we see that I will definitely talk as if my actions were made for the benefit of the town

regardless of my actual alignment

. In this case, it would be incorrect to try to infer one alignment from that piece of evidence alone, since it's a given that I would do it no matter whether I was town or scum.

It is difficult for me to pressure those that I believe are not town. Why? The reason is simple - I don't have many people that I strongly believe am not town. There is the issue of Gamma Emerald, but there's only so long you can talk about tone before it simply because two people yelling back and forth aimlessly. For everyone else, I haven't seen anything else that I think is worth chasing up on. The reason for this is, as I've explained before, a large part of the content these past 4 pages has been completely nonindicative of alignment. I think that a lot of the activity so far has been talk about mafia theory or people making very simple mistakes. I do not blame them for making these mistakes, because it is a newbie game. But since a newbie scum and newbie town are both going to make mistakes, it's hard for me to determine whether these mistakes about the game(for example not being aware that the only way to get the list of roles is to massclaim) are from scum or town. That's why I don't have that many scum reads - yet. I fully expect that I will develop more scum reads as the game goes on, and you should definitely call me out for it if we're 20 pages in and I still don't have any scum reads.

[Accountant]

You clearly try show Charloux only from town perspective, and ignore his actions from mafia perspective

On the other hand, you're only showing Charloux from a mafia perspective, while ignoring his actions from a town perspective. I think it's important that all possible perspectives should be brought up so Charloux's actions can be clearly examined in the light of those perspectives. In this manner, we can clearly see if the mafia perspective is significantly stronger, and if it is then we have ourselves a good reason to scumread Charloux. I could definitely see Charloux doing this as scum, but since I can see Charloux doing this as town as well, it's difficult for me to say confidently what Charloux's alignment is, solely based on that.

[Accountant]

I think that Charloux is quite scummy as well. I think that post 87 did not come from a towny mindset. He says that he thinks Ramcius is scum because of his "overly aggressive" attitude and defensiveness but when he continues to be, what I perceive as, being even more aggressive, Charloux decides to just back off? I understand deciding "okay, this tunnel might be clouding my judgement, I'll look back at other people now" but there's no indication for me that Charloux was even looking at other people as potential scum.

Charloux's response was to vote Ramcius, then say he doesn't see any town mentality in Ramcius' posts. After that, his next two posts have been questioning Ramcius. I don't see Charloux backing off here.

[Accountant]

another slip? scum usually try be passive, and even if they put effort, scum always avoid give content, and you try convince Gamma opposite, and how you know Accountant enjoy playing scum? He told in mafia PT?

I don't blame you for not knowing this, but it's open knowledge that I enjoy playing scum immensely, for example here:

I want to win a scummy for best mafia player because I love playing scum

I'm just the sort of player who enjoys knowing more than I should, and so I like being a mafia member

VOTE: DeathByWobuffet

[Accountant]

Gamma, talk to me about VVD. I have a nullread on him and I want to know why you think he's town.

[Accountant]

@Ramcius: If you bite when you are attacked, i explode taking down everybody with me; So i suggest not going on a Jihad because of something stupid as your pride.

VOTE: Charloux

I think that this statement is doing precisely what he accused Ramcius of doing.

I'll treat your comments as "get the fuck off my back, don't ask why" for today then.

[Accountant]

DBW, who is your strongest scum read?

[Accountant]

passiveness contributed to him trying to protect his alliance

Alliance?

[Accountant]

I'd be troubled if you could, since it was meant for only Accountant to understand. I asked for his opinion in #87, and since he didn't respond, i added the last sentence of #107. I'm basically gambling that he is town, and it seems it backfired.

That's contextually untrue. 87 was clearly a response to Ramcius' 86. Explain clearly how anyone could possibly interpret 87 as asking me for my opinion, and explain what you were attempting to achieve with it.

[Accountant]

I don't buy that your town read on me was so strong that you'd be willing to risk tipping me off to the fact that he might be a PR. Furthermore, you indicated earlier that such a mentality was in fact indicative of scum and not PR.

I'll go on a limb here and say you are using an alter-ego in this game, or you are just bad with pressure hence taking an aggressive approach to fend off any potential attacks on your slot. I don't see town mentality there.

I would also like to us how you intended to bait me with that question. Suppose I am scum. What did you expect me to do in response to the question, and how would that help you catch me?

Please clearly explain this discrepancy.

[Accountant]

If you were scum i expected you to feign ignorance and then just try and NK/RB him. If you said something like "I think so" I'd treat you as town.

And what would your plan be for the next day? Would you have told the town "hey, I think Accountant is scum because he didn't respond to a post I made all the way back in page 4, and then the PR died"? No, I think that's a shaky plan, and I'd expect you to come up with something better if it was really a plan to ensnare scum!Accountant.

[Accountant]

No, you are null to me. And why would i say something like: His personality is indicative of him being scum or a PR? What would happen if i did? I needed a second opinion and you looked like a good choice.

If you're trying to figure out whether he's scum or a PR, I'm not sure why you'd vote him.

[Accountant]

Sorry, but i won't reveal all my cards without a fight.

Unfortunately, claiming that you have secret motives is not something that makes me think you are town.

[Accountant]

I still hold my suspicions on Charloux, and Accountant, though could someone correct me if I am wrong on Accountants [quote="In post 83 but is this an example of wine in front of me?

83 is not WIFOM. WIFOM is saying "I'd do X as mafia and Y as town", but I am claiming that I'd do X as both mafia and town. It's the opposite of WIFOM. WIFOM isn't scummy either, unless it's used to obscene excess.

[Accountant]

@Accountant: I was rereading for things that feel off to me and I don't feel great about your 69 where you basically say, "Mew is trying to game-solve = moderately townie." It just seems a bit lazy to me that you aren't really bothering to sort me even now like I kind of expected. I understand that you posted that partly to explain yourself to nydus early on even though the reads were premature, but I'm assuming these reads are still reasonably accurate. I really don't like how you and Gamma aren't trying to actively sort out your hard nulls + moderate townreads, that may just be a personal preference but I put a high priority on trying to sort these reads into essentially anything else ASAP.

This is not the way I scumhunt. I focus on my scumreads first, like Charloux.

[Accountant]

What is this other reasons?

[Accountant]

Well, I'm very tired and I just had a very tiring week. I am not in the mood to play ISO games. Please link to the exact post where you outline your reasons.

[Accountant]

If DBW gets lynched and flips town, I'd look at the people jumping on him for inactivity. That is just the easiest fluff read you can give as scum to lynch a town. If he flips scum, kudos to positions 1 and 3 in the wagon. First to push is probably town unless he's scum planning it out but not planning to have gotten his partner lynched so if position 1 lasts a while without getting night killed, look at him. Position 3 is almost always town to me if DBW is scum because he pushed the votes to a dangerous number. No one had higher than votes at the time so to push your scum partner a third vote in the circumstance seems extremely weird play. It kind of damns a lurking scum partner so I think position 3 is always town in that case.

I don't really like how nydushermain is lining up lynches here.

nydusher, I've already very clearly explained why that post wasn't scummy. You've understood the explanation, but continue to insist that it's scummy. I think that's because of the fact that you want a reason to be able to push me that nobody can refute(because since your reasoning has been debunked you're essentially just claiming I'm scummy because of your gut). That's something that's extremely scummy - it absolves you of responsibility of justifying your reads while letting you push mislynches forward.

This fits with your lining up lynches on DBW - you want to be able to sit on me at the end of the day and NOT on the DBW wagon. Yet, at the same time, you're letting the wagon go forward while telling everyone why DBW is town and the wagon is misguided:

I'm not saying we're lynching DBW but he has 3 votes now and 5 votes, from what I understand, is an autolynch.

There are 3 people with <10 posts. If they're all town do we just give mafia the win by lynching them all? I think DBW could potentially be scum but I think that going after obvious scum is better. There are people who have done things scummy, and then there are people who haven't done things towny. I'd rather lynch the former.

This is not the calm, meandering mindset that a townie has when the rest of the town is voting some lurker for no reason over their strongest scumread who their gut and overwhelming textual evidence!!! says is scum. I'd expect town!nydushermain in this position to be going "why the heck are you all voting DBW when obvscum is right here??" and getting more and more frustrated when nobody follows. The fact that you're openly denouncing the DBW wagon while not doing anything to stop it tells me that you're scum who wants to coast through D1 on a lurker wagon that nobody will blame him for. And

then

you have lynches lined up after DBW flips, all while looking like a brave and outspoken townie who's sitting on the IC.

If you want my read on you, here it is. I think you're scum.

VOTE: nydushermain

[Accountant]

I think in like the 10 games I dove through that Accountant has been in, there was only 1 where he was scum. Now the scum game was actually very different to ALL the games that I read through so I thought that maybe I was wrong. But before then, call it confirmation bias, but the town games I read of him were different. They had him being a lot more aggressive towards people which I didn't see from him this game. I don't know the exact number that I read through but pretend the number is 9 town games. Then, I FINALLY found a scum game from accountant and was like "wow this is pretty different from his town play and the play in the current thread" so then I started completely doubting my read. For the sake of ego though, I went through another thread that was dated to be before the scum game (as all the town games I had seen him in were played AFTER the scum game). The town game that he played right before the game where he rolled scum was very similar to (in my opinion) that game. So my conclusion is: Accountant changed playstyles after having played scum that game for whatever reason. So I didn't misspeak in that I said the wrong read, I misspoke in terms of the intent.

That's a bad conclusion. The reason for this pattern is simple: I change my playstyle every game. Mood affects my playstyle. The strength of the reads I have affect my playstyle(if someone is being outrageously scummy, I'll be much more aggressive). The players I'm playing with affect my playstyle(if I'm playing with Thor, I become less of a town leader, because Thor is a better town leader than me and having two leaders in one game is excessive and creates horrible messes if they clash). Meta affects my playstyle(I know Nahdia looks out for me bussing when I'm scum, so if I'm scum against Nahdia I bus less). There are probably some unknown or subconscious factors that affect my playstyle that I don't even know about. It's a bad idea to try to draw a read on me from something like looking at my past games' tone.

[Accountant]

Now I could link these threads but it would involve me going through his thread history AGAIN which sounds like a complete waste of time. Also @accountant, you say that you expect me to be more angry about DBW being lynched over you? The thing is, like I said prior in 146, I'm waiting for a flip. That means that I'm open to being wrong on people and that although I have a scum read on you, there are 3 scum in this game, meaning that a lynch on another person could still produce a mafia.

There are 2 scum in this game, not 3. And that line of reasoning is bad. If I saw a lynch on a lurker that I think is bad while my top scum read is ignored, I'm not going to go "hmm, let's wait for a flip, maybe I'm wrong about the lurker", and that's not what any reasonable townie would think. This is an excuse generated by scum.

[Accountant]

Also, you say that I'm trying to just coast through a D1 on a lurker wagon nobody will blame me for? If you're town accountant, read post 160. What you accuse me of is pretty much not voting on whoever is getting lynched today, them flipping town, and then me taking credit for it (similar to what ramcius is saying I think). Does the above post seem like someone who's trying to stand aside and just let whatever lynch go through and take credit for it? Does that really seem like my playstyle right now? Because if you're town accountant, I'm openly letting anyone bandwagon on you with me, including someone who read you scummy, and pretty much taking all credit for the mislynch. Yeah.. no.

No, what I am accusing you of is being

inconsistent

with your words and actions. You have explicitly said you think the DBW lynch isn't good:

I think DBW could potentially be scum but I think that going after obvious scum is better. There are people who have done things scummy, and then there are people who haven't done things towny. I'd rather lynch the former.

And you have explicitly said you think my lynch

is

good:

I think that an accountant wagon would be good

So it makes

no sense

to me for town!nydush to happily lay back and let the bad wagon go through over the good one while smiling and nodding and saying "well, maybe I'm wrong. Let's see how he flips!" and saying "of course, if he flips town, so-and-so need to be lynched, winky face".

[Accountant]

And what? I never implicated that I'd "berate people" or whatever for being potentially wrong on DBW. I presented both sides of him being scum or town.

You're right. You aren't going to "berate" them, you're going to lynch them.

If DBW gets lynched and flips town, I'd look at the people jumping on him for inactivity. That is just the easiest fluff read you can give as scum to lynch a town.

[Accountant]

The reason why I said a DBW lynch is bad is because YOU are my top lynch. If it goes through, honestly, w/e because he can still be scum but I personally want a lynch on who I think is scummier.

I don't buy that at all. In a situation such as yours, a townie would be trying to show everyone how scummy I am so they'll agree with you that I am scummier and lynch me. You would be questioning me and attacking me harshly rather than going "yeah, I said something on page 3, remember that?" Here's why - it's clear that nobody buys your analysis of why I'm scum, so if you were town who were convinced I'm scum, you want to generate new content, you want to pressure me and make me slip up and make me do stuff that

would

make town buy that I'm scum. You have absolutely no reason to rehash old stuff that people have shown they aren't convinced by(or the wagon on me would be much bigger).

You tell me you want an Accountant wagon, but you aren't showing it. You're sitting back and coasting along.

[Accountant]

So when we have many days left and I could be wrong on a lurker, you don't think it's reasonable for me to be waiting for a flip so that I can go do ISO dives and see what the interactions are with people and whoever flipped? Get out of here.

It's not reasonable at all. Town would

never

be in a mindset of "hoping they are wrong and trying to make the best of it" when SCUMLORD ACCOUNTANT!!! still exists and lives and breathes. Town would definitely be pushing for the lynch of someone they think is scum because as good as ISO diving a flipped player might be, lynching someone you

actually think is scum

is

by far

superior to any other lynch, and that is the kind of mindset that a townie attempting to catch scum would have. What you have described is the mindset of a mafia member pretending to be town and wanting mislynches to go through while trying to sell us on the idea that it's perfectly reasonable for a townie to not care if town lynches the wrong person.

You keep trying to emphasize to us how you're so filled with self-doubt and are so woeful about how you might be wrong about DBW that maybe the other townies know best after all and it's okay to see him flip - but that is completely incongruous with the certainty you have displayed about how I am scum because I use "mafia" instead of "they".

[Accountant]

Actually, pepchoninga gave a very similar reason to me for thinking you were scum. I pinged him to jump on the wagon with me. It doesn't seem clear at all. What seems clear is that no one is actually reading WHY I think you're scum and is just making dumb assessments based on the last couple of things I've said.

If you acknowledge that nobody else is convinced by your extremely shoddy line of logic about why I'm scum, then if you were really convinced I'm scum you'd be trying to come up with new, more convincing lines of logic. That's what you would be focused on. The idea of letting a suboptimal lynch run through would never cross your mind at all, unless you were a player who was particularly doubtful of themselves or unconfident in their scumhunting - which doesn't fit with what you've shown us at all.

[Accountant]

Show me where Pepchoninga agreed with your posts about me being scum because I said "mafia" instead of "they".

[Accountant]

and you saying you don't know anyone alignment in this game, it's so forced townslip

If we're talking about forced townslips, then I think his "there are 3 scum in the game" thing qualifies just as well.

[Accountant]

The problem here is that the notes I've made are in my head. If I could go back in time and make specific bookmarks of everything I've seen in your past games, I would but at the time, I was mostly looking for where you ended up being scum. Yes, I can assure you that I've been trying in my head to solve your alignment and maybe I'm doing it poorly in the environment of forum mafia because I'm not giving concrete evidence but trust me when I say I've tried to consider you as town. Confirmation bias is hard to overcome and to me, you're scummier than not.

That doesn't explain

anything

. I'm asking why you seem to not be fighting very hard against a lynch you've acknowledge yourself as suboptimal. Yes, it's not the worst lynch in the world, there's still a chance of DBW being scum. But any reasonable town who wants to win does not want "merely passable" lynches. They want the

best possible lynch

every single day. There is absolutely 0 reason for you as town to not care that the lynch that we are having is not the best possible lynch unless you don't care about town executing the best possible lynch. And only scum has that kind of thinking.

[Accountant]

The way ny used meta doesn't feel like a scum use, also the fact he went back after realizing his analysis was off.

You're going to have been more specific than that. This is very very vague.

[Accountant]

"I'll let the lurker wagon play out first and analyze it instead because I sure as hell am not going to stop it, I don't townread him."?

I mean, sure, that's fine. But then why does he go the trouble of pointing out how awful the DBW wagon is compared to me - and why is he sitting there talking about "when DBW flips"?

See, I get that telling someone they're scum for having scum mentality in their posts is utter BS. But this is kinda different - he's taking actions that town have no reason to take and scum have every reason to take. That signals his alignment pretty strongly to me.

[Accountant]

It still looks like nydushermain's mind is still focused on your wagon

I'm not convinced about this. He's spent as much time talking about who he'd lynch if/when DBW flips than actually trying to kill me.

[Accountant]

What does 188 answer?

[Accountant]

Right, and I'm struggling to understand why he would expand that standalone into more stuff about DBW, as town, rather than refocusing on me. I also think that the post as a standalone is itself scummy - it's lining up lynches.

PEdit: Why do you feel that's particularly genuine? It's not that hard to fake.

[Accountant]

Okay I think we're talking past each other a little bit at this point.

Let me summarize my case.

WHY IS NYDUSHER SCUM:
- lines up lynches
- says he wants to lynch me over DBW but looks like he doesn't really care
- tries to pass off what is essentially a gut read as a legitimate read

Now, your turn.

[Accountant]

The easiest way to understand why I think nydus is town here is to take a look at the game link here.

I get that "Mewtaph did this last time and he was town", but you haven't showed me:
a) Why this is exclusive to town - ie. why this is done as town but not done as scum
b) Why you feel it's a consistent pattern enough to give hard townreads on rather than a one off thing.

[Accountant]

He's stated multiple times in thread that he's not completely sure of his read on you, this could be an explanation of why it looks like he doesn't care/seems unsure. This is a valid point, he says "w/e because he can still be scum", now I'd prefer for a less pressure filled environment to question him in rather than someone voting him and questioning him at the same time.

I don't buy that his weak on me is read. He's been fairly stubborn about saying that I am scum, but doesn't back it up with actions.

[Accountant]

read on me is weak*

[Accountant]

Because I've done similar things before/been thought of as scum without legitimately being reached out to, may be why I am thinking nydus of town here.

Okay, I'm fine with buying into this for now. Not enough to unvote, but enough to talk about other stuff. It's all a rehash at this point anyway and there's more than one scum to catch.

[Accountant]

Okay sir, if you're actually mafia, constantly saying I don't back it up with actions is going to make me your absolute worst nightmare because I'm this close to thread diving you again and flooding this game with posts from other games and how differently you play in them.

That won't prove anything, because nobody cares about how differently I play in other games.

[Accountant]

I belive you passivness and overall neutral behaviur comes from a well collected scum thinking.

Why not a well-collected town thinking?

[Accountant]

Is this the case with nydushermain at the time where those posts were made since I'm yet to read furhter?

Yes, I started scumreading nydushermain after he started lining up lynches. He's insisted over and over that that wasn't the intention behind the post, but of course I have no reason to buy that, and I think it's still a strong reason to scumread him.

@Gamma Emerald: Your tell is BS. Scum are not magically prevented from fact checking,

[Accountant]

But they still wouldn't. It's not a case of whether it's possible. It's that scum have no motivation to double-check the way he did.

I think that free townreads for putting in effort and doing things that "only a townie would do" is pretty strong motivation.

[Accountant]

nydushermain, explain clearly what your motivation was for giving an unprompted reads list. Do you think that people were very clueless as to what your reads were?

[Accountant]

So nydusher, let's have a talk. Why am I scum? You claim that you have legitimate reasoning other than the "them" thing, which everyone other than you thinks is silly. Let's hear it. Am I too passive? Is it that I'm not giving reads on you?

[Accountant]

I probably scum read you for the same reason you scum read me. You've decided that I'm scum already and no matter how I explain to you my thought process, you just say "Oh I don't believe it."

I assure you, I believe very much that you are scum reading me. And hey, it looks like Alisae wants to understand too, and she hasn't decided you're scum.

[Accountant]

That's not what I meant. What I meant is that you've got confirmation bias already planted into your head so no matter how I try to explain to you that everything that you've accused me for, I've done as town, your retort is just "oh I don't believe it."

I'm asking

you

to explain why I am scum. Not the other way around.

[Accountant]

Come on, man. You think I'm a scumbutt, right? You should be chomping at the bit to tell Alisae just why I'm the scummiest person alive and get her on my wagon! Or at least, you would if you really cared about lynching scum.

[Accountant]

I'm tired of you and your attempts at "logic" when you're not even reading what I'm saying. At this point, I just want anyone lynched for a role flip and then see what their interactions have been.

Yep, no, you're not getting away with evading this.

Do you think I am scum? Yes or no?

Refusal to answer will be treated as a scum claim.

[Accountant]

Do you think I am scum? Yes or no?

Refusal to answer will be treated as a scum claim.

@nydushermain

[Accountant]

I'm leaning scum on you but I could be wrong. If I had a choice between anyone in this game and you, I'd vote you (with the exception of charloux).

You don't get to try to evade giving an opinion about me. That's something scum likes to do to keep their options open. Right now, do you think I am more likely to be scum than town? Yes, or no?

[Accountant]

I'm leaning scum on you but I could be wrong. If I had a choice between anyone in this game and you, I'd vote you (with the exception of charloux).

You don't get to try to evade giving an opinion about me. That's something scum likes to do to keep their options open. Right now, do you think I am more likely to be scum than town? Yes, or no?

Uhh, I openly admit that I'm keeping my options open. Why? Because I could be wrong? And reread the thing you quoted. Like I said, you're in this dumb ass tunnel on my thinking that no matter what I do, it's from a scum perspective. You're like skipping words that I say and if you're town, you should clear your damn mind, and reread my damn ISO.

Yes, or no?

Answer the question. I've asked you this question 3 times already, and you keep shying away from it. I'm going to keep pressing you until I get a definitive yes or no answer.

[Accountant]

Because I've already answered it.

Yes. Or. No. "Leaning scum" is not yes or no.

[Accountant]

Why are you so afraid of giving me a yes or no answer?

[Accountant]

Accountant, what are your reads? I think I asked you this already, but you kept on giving your attention to Nyd.

Ramcius and Mewtaph strong town, Alisae townlean, DBW, Pep and Gamma null, Charloux scumlean.

[Accountant]

Accountant, what are your reads? I think I asked you this already, but you kept on giving your attention to Nyd.

Ramcius and Mewtaph strong town, Alisae townlean, DBW, Pep and Gamma null, Charloux scumlean.

Why the null read on Pep?

Because he hasn't said anything indicative of alignment rather than newness to mafia.

[Accountant]

Why are you so afraid of giving me a yes or no answer?

Because I don't have one.

It is literally impossible for you not to have one.

Either you think that YES I am more likely to be scum than town or NO I am more likely to be town than scum. It is literally mathematically impossible for you to not have a yes or not answer to this question.

[Accountant]

I've given the answer that I think you're more mafia than you are town. Have you read above? You've even quoted me when I've said it.

What about the other players in the game? Do you think they are more mafia than town, too?

[Accountant]

At this point, I just want anyone lynched for a role flip and then see what their interactions have been.

So 6/9 people are more town than mafia, and 3/9 people are more mafia than town. That suggests that you should be focusing on those 3 people and trying to interrogate them and get them lynched. Yet you are willing to lynch "anyone". Please justify this discrepancy.

[Accountant]

Nope. I have a null read on DBW. Why am I willing to lynch anyone? Because you've almost single handedly made this game horribly unenjoyable for me.

1) If you're scum, kudos to you because you've convinced people that I'm scummy by saying "oh I don't believe he's actually doing this" and "oh he's not answering my question" when I've given you all my honest intent and answers.

2) If you're town, please change your playstyle in future games (which I will actively avoid being a part of) because quite honestly, you suck. And I don't mean you suck in a "you're a bad player" kind of way, but in a "I actually dislike you" kind of way. It feels like you're attacking me but ignoring all the facts and ignoring anything that I've done that can be even remotely be read as town and just going after anything that sounds scummy. Even if it means that you ignore a couple words in my quotes. You've even quoted my answer to you in a post where you ask me for an answer? WTF is wrong with you?

So, I'm going to preface that if you think I'm an exceptionally abusive IC or if you think I'm being so toxic that it makes the game unfun for you, please PM Mina with a complaint. It's my job to make the game civil and a good introduction to mafia, so if you're having a very unenjoyable time then I'm clearly doing something wrong. I apologize for that. However, I still have to play to my win condition, and that means I will definitely follow up on all the inconsistencies I find scummy. If that's very unenjoyable to you, it's a necessary evil in the game of mafia.

1) That is not why you are willing to lynch anyone. You said something along the lines of "oh, I might be wrong, so I guess it's fine to lynch anyone" - that means you were okay to lynch anyone because you didn't have confidence in your reads. You also mentioned that you wanted to look at flips and interactions, which makes sense paired with a lack of confidence about reads - after all, with more information, you can get better, stronger reads. But now you come and tell me it's because you think the game is unenjoyable. That's a big contradiction right there.

2) It's an objective fact that I've asked you for a yes or no answer and you dragged your feet and took two pages to come out and say "yes". I don't think I'm unreasonable in saying that you're not answering my question in that case.

3) I'm sorry that you dislike me, but I disagree here. I've clearly explained exactly what I find scummy about you. Yes, maybe you do something townie elsewhere - but even then it won't change the fact that you did have lots of inconsistencies, that you have been very evasive(which is an opinion that is not exclusive to me, btw) and that you have spent more time complaining about me witch-hunting you than justifying yourself. When I ask you a yes-or-no question, I expect an answer of "yes" or "no". Not "leaning scum". "Leaning scum" is not a "yes", and it is not a "no". Therefore I do not count that is an actual answer.

[Accountant]

Accountant has made it clear that he isn't willing to work with me.

Yes. I am not willing to work with someone I think is scum. I am not willing to let up pressure on someone who has responded very poorly to pressure, and who - I repeat - I think is a member of the mafia and actively working to subvert and destroy the town. Do you think that's very unreasonable?

[Accountant]

I belive that Accountant didn't really do anything with the information.

What about my push on ny?

[Accountant]

Anti-town is accountant saying that no matter what I do, "oh it comes from a scummy perspective" even though it seems like he's not against things I say potentially coming from a towny perspective. To him, this should literally be a 50/50 if he looked at things unobjectively, but instead, he chose one and is sticking with it even though nothing really leads to me being scum from what I've read of his accusations.

There's no possible townie perspective in lying about your motivations, as I highlighted in my earlier posts. Also, I haven't said anything about scummy perspectives for the last 50 posts. My last 50 posts have been nailing you on your inconsistency between reads and actions.

[Accountant]

1) No, when I said I might be wrong on people so I'm fine lynching people who are in my null to mafia reads. Then I said I'll lynch whoever the fuck because I feel like I'm painted in a dumb corner and it's not fun at all.

2) When you ask me "Do you think I'm more mafia or town" and I said you're leaning scum, that literally means that I think you're more mafia than town. Obviously? Why do I need to say yes or no when I've already given my stance? It's literally synonymous.

3) I'm pretty sure I've answered every question. If you can point to questions that have not been answered at all, then I'll answer them now because I don't remember any.

4) The reason why the game is unenjoyable is because you've pushed on me so hard with what I think is very little justification. I feel like you just flipped a town or scum coin on me and it landed on scum. It has nothing to do with you being an IC, and I don't think you're being rude or anything. You've been civil but I think that your scumhunting playstyle is horrendous if you're town.

1) That makes no sense. Thinking that you might be wrong on people does not equate to you lynching randomly. Otherwise you don't really read someone as more scummy than another person - you say with your mouth that they're scummy, but when it comes down to it you're content with giving them the exact same treatment as you do with someone who is merely null. Your actions do not match up with your words at all.

2) No. You could claim later that you were only "leaning" scum and didn't truly believe it. I'm trying to pin you down into a concrete view so I can hold it against you later and you can't keep changing your mind and twisting your own words. If you were truly town who was frustrated that I kept accusing you of not answering, you'd definitely want me to stop accusing you, and the easiest way to do that is to answer. Instead, you evaded and got into an argument. That makes no sense.

3) Unfortunately, getting pushed for reasons you disagree with is part and parcel of the game.

[Accountant]

No, you're not actually reading what I'm saying and understanding why I think certain things. You read my answer and arbitrarily just say "nope I'm right"

I am absolutely reading what you're saying, and what you're saying tells me that you're scum. I'm not arbitrarily saying that I'm right - quote where I did so. Every single accusation I have leveled at you, every single conclusion I have drawn from your posts has been backed by cold hard logic. If you're unhappy with that, then too bad.

[Accountant]

I belive that Accountant didn't really do anything with the information.

What about my push on ny?

I belive my too many post may have been too many. I did say in one of them that I belive after you were sure that people belived you are town you started going agianst the person who was most actively pushing on you. And that was Ny. There was a clear change in the way you play after he brang you old games and started giving some decent-ish arguments from there but off course you can't really judge from past games since this is to some extent unproffesional. No you are clearly looking more confident and aggressive towards him. Why the change in playing in that current time.

I was more confident and aggressive towards ny because my scumread on him became stronger. Isn't it natural to be more aggressive towards someone you scumread more strongly?

[Accountant]

@Gamma Emerald: NAI

I did a re-read. ny is null. Alisae is scum. Will explain why when I get to a computer.

VOTE: Alisae

[Accountant]

1) Nydusher is null because my case on him rests on the fact that town has no reason to do the stuff he did. However, I think that he seems like the kind of player to do stuff that I can't see a reason for. Maybe he's just a very whimsical player, or perhaps it's because he plays like this is video mafia and not forum mafia. Still, it's something that makes me re-evaluate. If we take away that, I don't see anything that makes him more scummy than town.
2) Alisae is scum firstly for the buddy on me, secondly for the extremely rapid pace at which they went from "I'm neutral in this, stop fighting you two" to pushing ny almost as hard as me and being very provocative in their wording. This serves two purposes, firstly it reinforces the buddying that they did on me, secondly being provocative towards someone who you know responds badly under pressure is a textbook scum tactic(see Mini Normal 1825 where gameplay506 provokes rb as scum) to make them look even worse and get an easy mislynch. The speed seems artificial and makes me think it's a scum tactic rather than a natural progression of reads.

Any questions?

[Accountant]

secondly being provocative towards someone who you know responds badly under pressure is a textbook scum tactic(see Mini Normal 1825 where gameplay506 provokes rb as scum) to make them look even worse and get an easy mislynch. The speed seems artificial and makes me think it's a scum tactic rather than a natural progression of reads.

Also, isn't this what exactly you were doing with your extensive questioning?

There's a difference between questioning someone you think is scum and questioning someone to provoke them.

[Accountant]

Accountant is solid town. I have very good reasoning for this.

Let's hear it, then. You know, just so I can check you really townread me and aren't buddying me like Ali did.

[Accountant]

Yeah! I have a question.

What mostly made me switch from "Hey, stop fighting" to "You're scum" is this post.

Can we just kill DBW and see what happens? I'm willing to be the hammer if there's a fourth vote.

How does this seem town or even null to you?

Also, why would scum me be grilling Pep and Nyd as hard as I am?
Also why would scum me stop pushing Nyd now, cause currently I much rather push a Pep lynch then a nyd lynch.

It's a really wonky post, but I think that's just the way nyd plays. It's consistent with how I would expect him to act if he's town. It's not even his scummiest post so far - I've felt that way before myself as town. I don't see why this one post made him skyrocket in your reads.

Where is Mewtaph?

[Accountant]

B. The whole buddying issue and "If he flipped scum, I would be in trouble" is a whole bunch of WIFOM

No it's not. Buddying the IC is pretty much standard scum play. I've been buddied many times by scum before. By saying "if [Accountant] flipped scum, I would be in trouble" you're acknowledging that you're essentially placing all your trust in the hope I am town, and I don't see why. I'd expect a townie to be more paranoid than that, especially as I am the IC and can fake being town easily as scum.

[Accountant]

I was suspecting you for not taking ny's playstyle into account based on a post you made earlier talking about playstyle differences then I saw you made a comment about how video mafia affects his playstyle so I felt like you weren't being unfair, and were able to notice that it was a playstyle issue.

Why does this make me solid town rather than null?

[Accountant]

UNVOTE:

There's some stuff from Alisae I like.

VOTE: Mewtaph

Why so eager to analyze early game but vanish as soon as real conflict appears?

[Accountant]

When did I criticize the pep wagon?

[Accountant]

If I see something I'm opposed to, I'll definitely attack it. You saw me do that with nyd.

[Accountant]

I think it's more beneficial to exert pressure on Mewtaph to start posting because it's impossible to win if we have lurkers regardless if Mewtaph's alignment. If he is town we need him to come and contribute since his analysis is good. If he is scum we need to expose his scummy behaviors. The other alternative is to be just another body on the pep wagon, which isn't as useful as I don't super strongly scumread pep.

[Accountant]

@Charloux: Can you do stuff like quote posts you like/don't like then write "this post is good/bad because ___?" Even two liner posts are super useful as they help me get a handle on how you read the game.

[Accountant]

Pep what are your reads?

[Accountant]

Why is Charloux in that tier?

[Accountant]

Why do you consider making a case on a scum read as busg work; and why do you think he is trying to get your attention away from Pep? After all, it's possible to make a case on him and lynch Pep at the same time. Finally, why is it not pro-town?

[Accountant]

B. I think it's an attempt to get my attention away Pep because if he wants a bigger case on him, people may end up buying it and lynch him instead of Pep. I much rather focus on trying to convince and show people why I think Pep is scum rather then showing why Nyd is scum.

So you think that nydushermain is trying to purposely get himself lynched to save Pep?

[Accountant]

Also Accountant you never answered my question about the "gun to my head" phrasing.

What is this question?

[Accountant]

"Gun to my head" means "if you forced me to take a stance right now". So say I'm not sure who scum is, but I think X is scummiest(though very fuzzily). Then I might say "I dunno who is scum, but gun to my head I'd say maybe X."

@Alisae: Your position of "well, maybe that's what nyd did, as stupid as that sounds" is very unsure compared to your questuon of "why are you doing this?" which already presumes it is happening.

[Accountant]

Yeah, I'm not really sure what he was trying to accomplish by asking me to state his case against him.

Then why were you so sure his ulterior motive was to distract you from pep?

Furthermore, it's not unusual for someone to ask for a case on themselves so they can refute it. I did this myself in 336.

[Accountant]

Yeah you can't get away from me

buddy

Also Accountant you remind me of Titus

What do you mean by this?

[Accountant]

VOTE: Alisae

[Accountant]

Also even tho I'm at L-2 and it's better to claim at L-1, much rather claim now.
VT.

If you know it's better to claim at L-1, why claim at L-2?

[Accountant]

Charloux always plays like this, IMO. I will not say more because I don't want to violate site rules.

It's near Christmas and I'm pressed for time, so I'll come out and admit that I haven't read much of the past few pages. If there's anything anyone wants to draw to my attention, go ahead. Otherwise I haven't read anything that makes me change my reads on anyone.

[Accountant]

Ramcius is far from VI. Alisae knows she can make him look bad by provoking him, and wants to slip out of a lynch. Don't let her do that.

[Accountant]

Okay, this is pretty nonsense. I think Ramcius and ssbm are probably town, so that leaves Gamma, nydusher, DBW and Pep.

VOTE: DBW

[Accountant]

ny is town for the reaction

Hmmm

yes

[Accountant]

Could it be as easy as DBW/Pep?

[Accountant]

nyd's reactions are strong frustrated town and difficult to fake. If you really believe that Pep you should be voting me or Gamma. Where does DBW stand in your view?

[Accountant]

nyd's reactions are strong frustrated town and difficult to fake. If you really believe that Pep you should be voting me or Gamma. Where does DBW stand in your view?

I will when I see a better view of the 2. Honestly Gamma disappearing for the end of Day 1 is quite suspicious to me, but you being posting much less when the action got hotter is not helping you in my eyes either.

Honestly I'm as frustrated about DBW as the next guy. I would like if he gets replaced or lynched. Tho I can't form a good opinion on somebody who really posted little to nothing.

Wait, did you just eliminate nyd as one of your three strongest scumreads on the say-so of another strong scumread?

[Accountant]

VOTE: pepchoninga

DBW will likely be replaced - in the meantime let's see what we can squeeze out of pep.

[Accountant]

Please don't vote DBW for now. That is extremely lazy play.

[Accountant]

I don't think I have said so anywhere in here.

You said that your scumreads were nyd, Gamma and me. I said that nyd was town and that you should vote either Gamma or me if that's how you felt. And you said "I will as soon as I get a better view of the two" - that implies you were prepared to accept my proposition and vote either me or Gamma, simply because I said nyd was town and you bought it. That seems inconsistent, if you really believed I was scummy and trying to deceive you.

[Accountant]

Please don't vote DBW for now. That is extremely lazy play.

huh? you voted him early in D2, ignored my request to unvote, when he was L-1, and now you say this, when only 1 vote on him and everyone already wait his replacement? It really pings me

I mean that you shouldn't vote someone in the process of being replaced.

[Accountant]

Ramcius what is yuor read on pep?

[Accountant]

Accountant what are your reads on Gamma?

Slight scumlean.

@Ramcius: Let's say Pep gets hammered right now. How do you feel about that? Would you take explicit steps to stop a hammer(a proper one, with roleclaims and everything) in order to push Gamma?

[Accountant]

Accountant why did you naked vote Alisae?

Because I thought she was scum.

[Accountant]

I disagree about Account being townish. I would like to here why you think that after Account responds to you.

You haven't given a proper reasoning why I am scum either. You repeatedly insist on it with no real reasoning.

[Accountant]

IIRC Ram started to follow up on it as well. Account sat back and watched. Ram moved on to another conflict, when that didn't go anywhere Account brought up NY again. Alisea came in and got involved and tried to get them to stop, but inevitably got involved. Account backed away and watched. That turned into a different conflict with Alisea and Pep. Account sat back and watched. Here they had an obvious non game experience effect this game play. I thought IC town!Account would have told them to stop, it's not helping but he just watched.

What a gross mischaracterization of the events of D1! I was on the nydusher wagon all the way, constantly yelling and prodding at him, as nydusher himself can testify. To say that I sat back and allowed Ramcius to do everything is utter horseshit. For instance I was the one to move Alisae from ny's vanity wagon to a lynch target.

Now, let us examine why this makes me scum. Suppose that what you have said is actually true, even though it's not. Why is this scummy?

PS: The Pep and Alisae thing happened while I wss busy over Christmastime, which I expressly acknowledged.

[Accountant]

Would a town IC not say some nothing about that during or after to explain why thats not helpful for us? Can you agree with that as an IC?

The IC was, regrettably, doing Christmas stuff and until very recently their time was consumed with a difficult LyLo situation in another mafia game. Therefore the IC was only aware of such a squabble long after it had concluded and had no chance to make comment on the matter.

[Accountant]

What I'm saying is you start conflict hoping someone else will take it over. Then you back off when someone else gets involved, or starts a new conflict.

And why, exactly(putting aside the fact that it is untrue), is this scummy?

[Accountant]

It's scummy because you don't care where the conflict is. You just want it. I do care where it is. We should let us fight each other when we know there is scum sitting and watching in fighting. That is bad and if you can't say leering tvt happens is bad you are scum in my book

Why are you so sure it's TvT? Given that up until recently you thought nydushermain was scum, you should think that my earlier conflict was a conflict directed at scum.

I love conflict. I think conflict is what drives mafia games forward. In a conflict, mafia members are forced to take sides and espouse reads, which might prod them into revealing inconsistencies in their mindset. It's far better than sitting around in a sterile environment where mafia can blend in easily.

Now, here's a question for you. What makes you think I don't care where the conflict is? After all, I specifically choose to start it on certain people(ny, alisae) so I must definitely be "directing" the conflict rather than just sitting back and letting it happen.

[Accountant]

You got against nyd and oushed him but then saw that I started a grid against Alisae so you slowly turned your attention to him giving a lynch without really specifying why.

Nonsense.

2) Alisae is scum firstly for the buddy on me, secondly for the extremely rapid pace at which they went from "I'm neutral in this, stop fighting you two" to pushing ny almost as hard as me and being very provocative in their wording. This serves two purposes, firstly it reinforces the buddying that they did on me, secondly being provocative towards someone who you know responds badly under pressure is a textbook scum tactic(see Mini Normal 1825 where gameplay506 provokes rb as scum) to make them look even worse and get an easy mislynch. The speed seems artificial and makes me think it's a scum tactic rather than a natural progression of reads.

I was quite explicit in my reasoning for lynching Alisae.

[Accountant]

Unfortunately whatever you say, people will always use this as a reason for you being scum and if you wanna change somebody's opinion you better start showing signs that you are doing things fir the benefit of town. As a starter what are your reads at this moment?

That is nonsense thinking. I am more interested in lynching scum than artificially parading around how townie I am. If people wish to lynch me for not being active at Christmas, that is on them and all I can do is explain why it's a bad idea.

Right now I have Ramcius and nydushermain as strong town, Gamma as nullscum, Pep as scumlean, Screenplay as a scumlean, ssbm as townlean. I want to lynch Pep because he's a stronger scumlean than Screenplay at the moment.

[Accountant]

you started Alisae wagon, promised explain later, but explanation never came, you just backed off, when i took it over, you saw me confronting him, only needed push, and i did all dirty work for you, sure, this isn't enough, i won't go back in D1 for more, when we have stuff in D2, vote on DBW at start of D2, why? without explanation, without reasoning, and when you say you was so busy with things, well, it's a rock in everyone's garden to let him at L-1 without asking to claim or doing anything, but you an IC, you should know how dangerous is putting lurker to L-1 and hammer would bring us to LyLo, when you saw it's not happening, you changed to Pep, as you said, to see where it leads, yet you do nothing, not asking claim, not pushing, but neither taking vote back, question is, if you so busy, why start voting at start of day between Christmas and New year?

Okay, let's go over these accusations one by one.

1) I started Alisae wagon but never explained myself and let others push it. I have already explained my reasoning in the previous post.

2) That I L-1ed DBW for no reason. Well, the reason is that I love wagoning people. I think it places great pressure on them and it helps to motivate them to post more and post better. It also forces people to take a stance early, so scum can't fencesit and blend in. Finally I felt DBW was scummy enough to be L-1ed.

3) That as an IC I should have not let DBW sit at L-1. This is nonsense. First of all it's perfectly natural and valid to let a scummy person sit at L-1. Second of all I have already warned everyone not to hammer without a claim. I'm not sure what you meant by "dangerous". Who here do you think is likely to randomly hammer DBW before a roleclaim?

4) That I am not pushing Pep. This is nonsense. I have been consistently advocating for his lynch and engaging with both him and Screenplay for the past few pages.

[Accountant]

When you say you had another game that was more important than this one, so all of your interest was there. Why is that? Was your wincon in jeopardy there but not here?

As an IC can you show me your post were you try to explain to us good town strategy to help us win. Any post as an IC explaining bad actions or strategy for us to avoid?

1) I understand that you viewed them as TvT, but I'm not sure why you came to the conclusion that it was me inciting a TvT. What I am asking is why, upon seeing what you saw, why you thought it was definitely "Accountant is scum who is making town fight" rather than "Accountant is town who is mistaken about who is town and starting conflict between townies by accident". Unless you already know my alignment and are trying to portray me a certain way?

2) I'm not sure what you mean by "wincon in jeopardy", but the other game was LyLo. That means that a single vote being wrong could tilt the outcome of the game in one direction or the other, so it was necessary to be excessively careful about the way I handled the game. In general, LyLo situations are far more difficult to play than playing regular mafia.

3) Post 22 on page 1, outlined in red - you would have seen it if you'd read the game thread.

[Accountant]

You talk about NY being null now after you road him hard. Why? Because you say it must be his play style? Then in bold ^ you knock Alisea for doing what you were doing??

Yes, precisely. That's exactly what I said in the very post where I explained why I thought nydusher was town after thinking he was scum early on.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. I was knocking Alisae for being intentionally provocative towards nydusher and resorting to attacks of a personal nature, which I could only assume was meant to provoke him. This is not what I have done, so it's not hypocritical like you're saying it is.

[Accountant]

You kept bullying him into a corner even after he gave his answer.
You reason for wanting definite yes or no was so you "could hold it against if he changed his mind later." Why would you not want us to have fluid evolving thoughts?

There's a difference between having "fluid evolving thoughts" and "having thoughts that are so vague you can't justify them when asked why you were thinking the way you were at the time". If you notice, nydushermain never gave me a straight yes or no answer, which is what I wanted. I like bullying people and pressuring people who are being vague or trying to hide. Don't you think that's something that town would do?

[Accountant]

This looks like what you did D1 and come out D2 and top vote Pep

No it is not. How is it the same in any way?

[Accountant]

Hmm. I see the points being made on Acc but feel like nyd is more likely to flip scum, unless it's Gamma/Acc? Seems like there's somewhat circular relationships within [Gamma, Nyd, Accountant]. Defenses of one another in some places, the way Nyd uses Acc/Gamma's reaction to his post as the standard and judge's Pep for it.

Acc and Nyd's relationship D1 could have been distancing as well, seems like they moved from SRing one another pretty strongly early and then end up ignoring/TRing each other later. There was that meta dive from nyd and then Accountant sort of fell off and ended up pushing Alisae and I. Pushing Pep now too, they're all on that wagon now actually, until that unvote which could be the scumteam realizing their wagon wasn't going to go through.

Could go anywhere in those 3 at this point but would prefer Nyd, he seems to make sense with either of the others.

Where is Pep here?

[Accountant]

Accountant brings up a good point which should be enough the mask himself for the rest of the day but he also basically tells us to not let the Alisae wagon go out. This means he is sure about who Alisae is and sees it as crucial that his lynch is hammered at the end of the day. Given that Alisae flipped town this post just shows that Accountant is not playing from a town mindset.

Do you believe that it is impossible that me, as town, would be sure that Alisae is scum and would think it is crucial that she is hammered, but end up being wrong?

[Accountant]

Actually I'm going to go ahead and call 1115 a scumslip because that kind of omniscient thinking - assuming that everyone knows the alignment of everyone else, and that therefore everyone who pushes town is scum - is characteristic of scum. Scum doesn't know what it's like to be town and be trying to poke and prod people to get answers out of them, they already know the alignment of everyone else. By thinking and starting from that kind of frame of mind, it leads to the awful lines of logic that Pep tried to push onto me.

[Accountant]

Ok, but why are you pushing for my lynch?

You mean before you accidentally revealed your alignment to everyone else?

It's simple. I thought Ramcius and ssbm were town. That leaves nydusher, Gamma, DBW and you. It slowly came out that nydusher was town in my eyes(post 972) which meant Gamma, DBW and you, out of whom 2 were scum. I think Gamma is the towniest out of the three, and even if he turned out to be scum you're not an unlikely scumbuddy with him. At the same time, you were also a good scumbuddy with DBW(see post 973). Statistically you're likely scum, your pushes have been horrid(that awful admitted sheep at the start or instance) and one of the two confirmed town(who we know we can trust) says that you're scum.

[Accountant]

hardcore lurking/inactivity is scum sign? Simply IC from other place explained me very clearly that lurkers are most likely VT

Yes. Lurking/inactivity is a scummy behavior and should be punished. I'm not saying we should lynch someone on that alone - that's silly and scummy - but I have absolutely no issue with voting someone to L-1 just because he's scummy. Again, the threat of a random mislynch(via quickhammer) happening isn't really true here. There isn't anyone here who would be that reckless, I think.

[Accountant]

but I have absolutely no issue with voting someone to L-1 just because he's scummy.

Correction: just because he's lurking*

Especially

when that person is one of the 3 people in the set that I think 2 members are scum.

[Accountant]

but I have absolutely no issue with voting someone to L-1 just because he's scummy.

Correction: just because he's lurking*

Especially

when that person is one of the 3 people in the set that I think 2 members are scum.

[Accountant]

yes, it's scummy, but NAI, and you knew DBW not going talk from being voted, heck, we were going lynch him on D1 at deadline, he didn't care, so your vote i find opportunistic, same wagon on Pep later, and now you try cover with "lurkers are scum"

Lurking is not the only reason I voted DBW. Didn't you read? He's one of the 3 people I wanted to lynch today(because two of them were scum), and at that point he's the most likely to be lynched.

Also, would you like me to provide games where I voted someone for lurking as town?

[Accountant]

no, i want to know why DBW looked scummy? And why you wanted him dead at start of D2?

Do you understand what the process of elimination is?

[Accountant]

I'm not saying that is it impossible, what I'm saying is that no town should act like that. You can never be 100% sure who is who and if you are then your alignment is clear. You also didn't do anything to bring good points to the Alisae lynch, all you did was stand there and say how crucial it is to lynch him.

1) Ah, so you are saying that as town I would never be 100% sure someone is scum and end up being wrong after they get lynched? Because I certainly have some interesting examples to show you if that's your stance. Furthermore, why bring this up now and not at the start of D2?

2) Didn't you read my case on Alisae? Or are you, as I suspect, pretending to ignore it because it's not convenient for your narrative?

[Accountant]

What I said now was that you didn't contribute to the Alisae lynch yet you were so sure about it needing to happen.

What do you mean I didn't contribute? I provided reasoning for my vote on alisae, I provided pressure on Alisae both verbally and in the form of votes and I made sure nobody strayed off the wagon and corraled others to lynch her. What contribition am I lacking here?

[Accountant]

Here is a thing for you. Why would I be a scum buddy with one of my top scum reads? (Gamma) Belive me you should know that scum usually don't put there parthner on the top of there reads.

This is incorrect. Why, I've done it myself as scum.

[Accountant]

And why is Gamma the towniest? What has he done for the benefit of town?

For one, he helped to clear nydushermain as town by pointing out his D2 reactions. Why would scum do that? I think scum!Gamma would be likely to try to get nydusher lynched rather than help him out.

[Accountant]

So here it is, what makes you think that statistically I'm scum? Because you are presenting a hit and miss theory with no clear evidence and are just trying to make me look scummy, so you can get out of your situation, which again is you being at L-1

You are one of three members of a group, amongst which two are likely scum. That means that off the bat you have a 2/3 chance of being scum. Gamma is townier than the other 2, so your chance is actually above 2/3. statistically, once again, you are scum.

Now, I find it interesting that you claim I am voting you to get out of being at L-1. Tell me, was I at L-1 when I voted you? Or is it the other way around, and you are opportunistically hopping on a counter wagon?

[Accountant]

i know, but you didn't answered, why you voted him early in D2, when you was busy, while we have whole 2 weeks? And don't tell me about PoE reasons to get rid of lynchbait, when it's 1 lynch to LyLo

Why would I not vote him? Rather, what is the benefit in delaying my vote on him?

You tell me that voting someone for PoE reasons when it's one lynch to LyLo is bad. Consider the following points:

1) Voting someone is not lynching them.
2) It's better to get rid of lynchbait before LyLo than run the risk of them getting lynched during LyLo and losing town the game.
2) The PoE reason is not to get rid of lynchbait. I think there is actually a significant chance DBW is scum.

[Accountant]

i gotta love this, why scum help town in trouble? It an easy way to look towny, i can tell that from personal experience, how you don't know that is mystery to me

The problem is that the credit you get from helping town is little, but the town can go on to cause trouble for you later. For example in LyLo if they are confirmed it's much harder to get them lynched, so instead of a 3/5 chance to lynch town it's only 2/5. Do not underestimate the power of a confirmed townie.

Secondly, I agree that it doesn't fully clear Gamma. That is why he is still on the list. But it makes him look better compared to the others on the list.

[Accountant]

1: I am not saying you were inciting. I am saying you sat back and let the conflict go. That brings me to

2: You said you had christmas stuff going on. Thats why you were not here. But you were in another game were you explain your wincon is in jeopardy. So that tells you didn't care who got lynched here because your wincon wasn't in jeopardy. Everyone should care who is getting lynched!!

3: I have the entire game! I have continuesly rereading iso's! If post 22 is all that you can say you have as an IC to help as win then you are failing as an IC or are a scum IC.

1) Oh? What would you have expected me to do? Stop the conflict? But why would I do such a thing? I love conflict, as I said before.

2) With my Christmas stuff going on, I essentially have only enough time to devote my full attention to one game. I decided to pick the game where I was in a tense LyLo over the game where everything was going well and the person I wanted to get lynched(Alisae) was getting lynched. If you think I'm not putting enough effort into this game, you may file a complaint to the mod - I understand that it's the policy in some games to force replace slackers.

3) Let me be very clear about this. I will never offer the players less help as a scum IC than I will as a town IC. Ever. I have made my IC post covering the core concepts I wish to impart. If you have questions about a specific topic or piece of information, ask. Otherwise I don't see the point in clogging up the game with unsolicited advice. This is common and accepted practice for newbie ICs. If you feel I am not performing my duty as an IC, PM Mina and file a complaint.

[Accountant]

That is incorrect. I don't wish to lock him into that mindset forever, but I wish to force him to be consistent. It is impossible to 100% know if you are right, but it should not be impossible to 100% know that you thought X at Y period of time and justify it. Unless you're scum.

[Accountant]

For the record I have never been terrified of someone telling me to clearly and unambiguously state yes or no if I think someone is scum.

[Accountant]

"Scum Gamma wouldn't do that"
"But scum can easily do so"
"Ok, you right, Gamma can be scum"

Yes, that is why Gamma is

still

on my shit list. I have him listed as nullscum.

[Accountant]

1) ofc not, but without voting you can't lynch anyone
2) agree, and that's why i wanted him out D1, we didn't lynched him then, so why rush on him at start of day? It was proven he won't cooperate with us if we push votes on him, so waiting and discussing all options would be wise, but rushing to get lynch isn't looking wise and towny to me
3) Sure, sure, Pep and DBW are scums, i know, Gamma is just little scum lean, everyone have right to have their own opinions, but i prefer facts

1) I agree. But then you can't say that me voting someone is equivalent to me trying to quicklynch them.
2) Oh? Where did I rush to lynch DBW? Or was I merely rushing to vote him? Even if he doesn't cooperate, it's useful to see who else rushes to vote him, because it tells me who else doesn't like Gamma.
3) You are asking me why I did a certain thing, so of course my opinion would be a big part of the reasoning for me doing those things.

[Accountant]

2) Alisae is scum firstly for the buddy on me, secondly for the extremely rapid pace at which they went from "I'm neutral in this, stop fighting you two" to pushing ny almost as hard as me and being very provocative in their wording. This serves two purposes, firstly it reinforces the buddying that they did on me, secondly being provocative towards someone who you know responds badly under pressure is a textbook scum tactic(see Mini Normal 1825 where gameplay506 provokes rb as scum) to make them look even worse and get an easy mislynch. The speed seems artificial and makes me think it's a scum tactic rather than a natural progression of reads.

[Accountant]

exactly, first you try tell he's can't be scum, cause defended Nyd, but took back later, when i pointed that scum easily could do so

I'm not saying Gamma can't be scum, I'm saying he isn't as scummy as the others.

[Accountant]

1) i can, you put DBW at L-1, isn't that close enough to lynch?
2) So, you wanted to see who will hammer? And Gamma what have with it? Was Kyo and Nyd votes before yours
3) your opinions should have some ground, and don't tell me other people are so conf town in your eyes, i don't buy that

1) No. Contrary to popular belief, you need to make one more vote after L-1 before the person can be lynched.

2) I wanted to see who will get on the wagon with me. I also wanted to see who conspicuously wouldn't get on the wagon.

3) There is ground. I scumread DBW because everyone else looked town and someone has to be scum. Do you not buy that I townread you and nydusher?

[Accountant]

Accountant why did you naked vote Alisae?

Because I thought she was scum.

On what grounds?

Please dont ignore me

Please read post 1164.

[Accountant]

And why is Gamma the towniest? What has he done for the benefit of town?

For one, he helped to clear nydushermain as town by pointing out his D2 reactions. Why would scum do that? I think scum!Gamma would be likely to try to get nydusher lynched rather than help him out.

This sounds weird.
Is that a slip implying that you two are buddies??

How the heck is this a slip?

[Accountant]

Do you have a concrete explanation of how this means we are a team working together or anything less vague than "it sounds weird"?

[Accountant]

Don't put words in my mouth. I don't say it means you are a team. I said it sounds weird and then asked a question.

I think it's pretty clear that when you say "is this a slip implying you two are buddies" you're trying to imply that we're a team together.

[Accountant]

1) you asked, if i think you tried quicklynch, and putting someone at L-1 at start of day is pushing quicklynch in my book
2) you saw 2 ppl on wagon, you putting him on L-1 prevented people from joining his wagon - hammering him would be really scummy, so i take your answer as a bs again, you did opposite to what you say you wanted
3) So you didn't scumread Pep at start of the day? Everyone town, only poor DBW, who wrote like 10 1-liners was your only scumread? And thing is, if you scum, you already know who's town, and who's not, so no, i don't buy your townread me and Nyd as a town, i trust Pep more for calling me scummy again, cause i feel i stepping over the line sometimes with my pushes

1) Why? Why does L-1 magically equal the desire for a quicklynch?
2) Nonsense. They could very well express intent to hammer or say something along the lines of "I would join the wagon if it wasn't already L-1". In short, I

wanted to see where the wagon would go

.
3) No. I thought Pep was a decent lynch at the start of the day, as expressed by the fact that I put him in the list of 3 people I want to lynch. But DBW's wagon was larger, and I like large wagons. They're more juicy, and I can switch over to Pep any time I want. I definitely townread you and Nyd. Your pushes are completely irrelevant. There's no way to fake the tone you have as newbie scum.

[Accountant]

I'm not saying that is it impossible, what I'm saying is that no town should act like that. You can never be 100% sure who is who and if you are then your alignment is clear. You also didn't do anything to bring good points to the Alisae lynch, all you did was stand there and say how crucial it is to lynch him.

1) Ah, so you are saying that as town I would never be 100% sure someone is scum and end up being wrong after they get lynched? Because I certainly have some interesting examples to show you if that's your stance. Furthermore, why bring this up now and not at the start of D2?

2) Didn't you read my case on Alisae? Or are you, as I suspect, pretending to ignore it because it's not convenient for your narrative?

If you are implying me in this cocky comment I have admitted that I'm not entirely sure about me being right at Day 1. Off course I don't want to missimperetrate wha yu are saying. And well yes, I belive overconfidence is not a good thing for town, except if you are a cop and have positive results about the player you are trying to lynch. But when you are wrong, behavior like that will bring you pressure. And why didn't I? Simple, I stated that after the Alisae flip I really had to build a lot of my SR and overall reads from the bottom and after further examination and some of the recent posts that really disturbed me (All of my reasonings have been explained), you became a target worth being put at L-1. Also you have been one of my top scum reads.

Oh belive me I have read your case on Alisae and discussed it. Really it doesn't change that you were just there to fuel the wagon and not really contribute to the full attack. Something that you have not done during the entire game.

You believe overconfidence is not a good thing for town, therefore you believe that since Accountant is overconfident, they must be scum? Why not me as town who is overconfident without knowing the dangers, or overconfident but thinks it's okay? Surely you'd see that if you were genuinely trying to figure out what alignment I was, rather than merely making up reasons to scumread me.

So you are saying that I made a case on Alisae, voted her, asked people not to move votes off her and I'm still not contributing enough to the "full attack". What, pray tell, did I neglect to do that put me over the line between "fuelling the wagon" and "contributing to the full attack"?

[Accountant]

But do I know. I haven't really had anybody to help me understand possible scum and town tactics...

There's no such thing as "possible scum and town tactics" (and I am speaking here as an IC). There's nothing in the world that scum will not do in an attempt to make themselves look town. They will happily lead wagons on both of their scum buddies. They will lurk and claim their grandma died when called out on it. They will be a malicious, toxic player in an attempt to make town not want to play the game properly any more due to not wanting to get flamed. What you must look for is what scum

cannot

do(like fake obvtown tone in the manner that nydusher has displayed).

[Accountant]

And why is Gamma the towniest? What has he done for the benefit of town?

For one, he helped to clear nydushermain as town by pointing out his D2 reactions. Why would scum do that? I think scum!Gamma would be likely to try to get nydusher lynched rather than help him out.

Why would scum do it? Well I don't know, I'm really finding it hard to understand anything Gamma does. His playing has been inconsistent, also a thing like that could be him trying to look town. Also you are ignoring everything else that has been said against Gamma. Why don't you aknowledge that?

Whaddya mean I'm not acknowledging that?

I'm giving you a reason why Gamma is the towniest out of all the people I scumread.

[Accountant]

2 are likely town? Who said that? You? Or do you have evidence that we aren't aware off. Your statistics are not backed by any evidence. Numbers are not always better then logic you know. You are actually just ignoring the use of logic atm.

Sorry, but I wasn't at L-1 when I voted you. A little mistake by you, or a bad try to make me look bad? Honestly I think you are slipping.

I think Ramcius and Nydusher are likely town because the way they conduct theirselves, the mindset from which they approach the game is very difficult to fake as scum and is therefore certainly town.

I did not say you were at L-1

. I suggested that you were hopping onto my wagon because it was a counter wagon to yours. There was certainly a wagon on you; as a member of the mafia, you were terrified of being lynched. Therefore you eagerly hopped onto a wagon that you thought might be a good alternative to your wagon. There is no claim here that you were at L-1.

[Accountant]

i was thinking and realized something, Accountant talking about how powerful conf town is said chance with conf town to lynch townie D3 would be 2/5 instead of 3/5, that's gives nothing by itself, but if reading between lines - we misslynch today by this math, so why, Accountant, you so sure we will ML?

I was merely giving an

example

of how having confirmed town can be useful for the town. I was not saying that the only use of confirmed town is in LyLo. Confirmed town is useful because you can look back on their previous posts and go "this person was definitely telling the truth, and everything they said comes from the mindset of trying to catch scum".

[Accountant]

Account in the last couple of pages has just tried to make me look bad by spreading some false information and trying to provoke me.

Please quote the false statements I asserted, and please quote where I was trying to provoke you.

[Accountant]

Well, if Accountant flips town (if the lynch does go trough) I belive that Gamma is a confirmed scum. Even if Accountant is scum I belive that Gamma is one if the most likely people to be his buddy.

This is Pepchoninga lining up lynches in LyLo. He wants you to go into LyLo with the idea "I will lynch Gamma" already in mind. Very suspicious.

[Accountant]

Okay, I've finished my catchup.

Pepchoninga is definitely scum here.
Ramcius and nydushermain are still town.
I've removed ssbm from my list of probably town.
Gamma is still nullscum. Probably null since it looks good for him when Pep tries to line up lynches on him.
Screeenplay is now nullscum instead of probscum.

[Accountant]

Well I was wondering why you saw Accountant at L-1 and chose to call it tempting but not write anything about SRing him, even though it seems like your read on him has moved from scum early day 1 into town more recently. But now he's at L-1, and you say it looks tempting. I want to know why you thought that, because I'm thinking the team i s either [You + Gamma] or [You + Accountant]. You saying Accountant looks tempting makes him look less appealing as scum to me because it points to You/Gamma

If this is the case, then you should definitely have given intent to hammer immediately. If I flip scum, then that's good. If I flip town, then you immediately know that the scumteam is Gamma and Pepchoninga and can easily win the game from there. Why didn't you give intent?

[Accountant]

Something along the lines of "why would I act as arbitrator for you two if I'm scum and you two are TvTing?" blah blah.

Because Alisae wasn't arbitrating and was doing nothing to stop the actual conflict. Doing something like "pretending to step between two towns fighting but not actually stopping them" is a classic scum tactic used to earn credit without stopping town members from killing each other.

[Accountant]

@accountant, I'm going to hammer you after your next post if you're not a power role. This is my intent to vote on you

I'm not a power role.

Lynch Pepchoninga. Look at his interactions and try to figure out who is partner is. I'll try to contribute as much as possible before you hammer.

[Accountant]

Wel yes, it's a normal thing to do. I have Gamma as my other big scum suspect, so I'm obviously thinking what would your lynch bring to my thoughts so far and wether or not he can be your parthner or as a whole - scum. Tell me what is wrong with that.

When did I say there was something wrong with that?

[Accountant]

Also what you say is "look". You don't say why.

Why should the town look at your interactions? Well, that's a very good question. You see, when someone draws a scum role PM, they often struggle to interact in a natural manner with their partner, because they deep down "know" that that person is their buddy, so they often treat them differently from other town members. I'm asking the rest of the town to take a close examination at who you treat differently in order to find who is your scum buddy.

By the way, what is your read on ssbm?

[Accountant]

You seem to use this as an argument to get people to lynch me, so...are you contradicting yourself?

Contradicting myself? I never said there wasn't something wrong with that either. It's amazing how much you let slip with a little prodding.

[Accountant]

Well this is good on theory, tho on practise it's a really easy way for scum to manipulate somebody into a misslynch.

But in a few hours you will have confirmation that I am town. So this last-minute attempt to throw shade doesn't fly.

[Accountant]

Also why don't you make a case against me instead of actually making other people see your point of view.

See post 1131 and 1133.

[Accountant]

*sighs*

Lynch pep, please. I don't think Screenplay is scum with Pep, so it's either ssbm or Gamma.

[Accountant]

Alright, reads list. This is a formality, but I want people to be able to link to this post and hammer people(read: Pep) about it.

Scumreads:
Pep: Already talked about why I think he's scum. 1131 and 1133 sum it up nicely.
ssbm: This is kind of gut but I don't really like ssbm. They should be chomping at the bit to give intent to hammer to one of their top scumreads, especially one that their other two scumreads have strong opinions on. I had bad vibes about Mewtaph too(which I think I expressed before), so I'd like everyone to at least very seriously consider if they're scum. Don't let them skim by; if they're town, they'll have no issue with this.

Nullreads:
Gamma.

Townleans:
Screenplay. Push on me feels like it's coming from genuine town who think they've found a smoking gun.

Strong town:
nydushermain
Ramcius

IF ALL ELSE FAILS: Remember that nydushermain and Ramcius are very very very likely town, and Screenplay is probably town as well. PoE from there.

[Accountant]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNwICMDMV-g

[Accountant]

Why is Screenplay scum again?

[Accountant]

SSBM should've been keelhauled for being antsy about voting Gamma after Gamma is confscum from his point of view Good game everyone!

[Accountant]

SSBM

Accountant should've been keelhauled for being antsy about voting

Gamma

Tweet after

Gamma

Tweet is confscum from his point of view Good game everyone!

this is referencing newbie 1756
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=69128
btw for the curious

Yes, I should have!!!

I can't believe I got away with that, the final vote on Tweet was so last minute and rushed

[Accountant]

Gamma, stop it. Mistakes happen. If you want to see optimal play don't play newbies.

[Accountant]

Gamma, stop it. Mistakes happen. If you want to see optimal play don't play newbies.

Gamma isn't bread and butter either. Accountant what did you make of me overall?

Too easily pocketed. Understandable mistake.

[Accountant]

Gamma, stop it. Mistakes happen. If you want to see optimal play don't play newbies.

Gamma isn't bread and butter either. Accountant what did you make of me overall?

Too easily pocketed. Understandable mistake.

This came mostly since I was so focused on clearing myself so I can unite the remaining town and actually get to a consensus and do a lynch together.

But thanks.

The problem here is that you can't clear yourself there - the only way to do so is by cop, and the cop is either scum, or believes you but can't prove he's not scum. Either way, you get a single supporter only(the cop).

Trying too hard to clear yourself makes you look like scum trying to clear themselves, and makes you susceptible to being pocketed. Rather it's best to go on the offensive and try to hunt scum, basically making it so they are an even scummier lynch than you.