Twin Trap (Game Over) [TM2015]

[Mina]

VOTE: BipolarChemist

Who here is willing to admit putting scum tokens into this game?

[Mina]

VOTE: EspeciallyTheLies

[Mina]

Mara!

Why do you want to skip RVS?

Why don't you want to skip RVS?

Mara, my team says you probably put scum tokens in, by the way. You're so mean to ignore me.

[Mina]

(I'm being an awful employee and sneaking on at work at a desk where everyone can see me. So I might be slow to respond to stuff and then only give one-liners.)

Quilford, yes, we think what you think we think, since tokens are a no-brainer in your case.

However, you clearly didn't get the alignment you want, because you're lying scum for forgetting we were scum together in Marketplace.

Mara, I'll follow up on this after double-checking with my team on this (I think it was Empire who told me this, although it could have been Regfan).

ETL, I did try to phrase it in a way that wouldn't take the pressure off Mara. But it did seem sort of a weird question to ask her (since the implicit message seemed to be that longer RVS is good--apparently, that's what you were going for?), so was curious to your thought process behind it.

[Mina]

VOTE: BBmolla

[Mina]

While I fully agree on disliking BB's post, I don't think it's alignment indicative.

Do you think anything is alignment-indicative so far, BPC?

[Mina]

(You're not giving off that impression with any of your posts.)

[Mina]

Not overly alignment indicative, no! There are a couple things that ping out like ETL's posting, but that's something most seem to be picking up on.

I'm not picking up on it--I mean, I'm sort of skimming right now and haven't followed the exact post numbers of Quil's case, but she seems fine right now.

Please explain exactly what "pings out" in her posts. And where you've seen Quilford play like this.

You're posting a lot like scum right now, FYI. Are you always this wishy-washy?

[Mina]

EBWOP: "where you've seen Quilford play like this *as scum."

[Mina]

Empire says that Mara used to take strong pride in her scum game (which is suggested in 39). He's apparently spoken about this with Cabd before. (I can ask him for examples later.)

Patrick, why don't you look obvtown yet? Is it because of the scum tokens you bid on this game? (Here, some attention for you!)

No more posting from me until tonight.

[Mina]

Turning the question around on me first is cheating.

(I lied. No posting anything with

stances

until tonight!)

[Mina]

This game looks like it'll be really easy so far, by the way.

[Mina]

But then you'll just say whichever of my theories makes your team sound the most virtuous, and that's no fun.

(If you're going to be coy, can you at least tell me whether you or CES would have been more likely to take them?)

p-edit: It should be obvious that I'm following the game well enough to have reads. That's part of why I hated your hedging so much. All I meant is that scrolling back and following all the posting numbers in Quilford's case is hard from work.

[Mina]

EBWOP: I hated your hedging because I felt like it wasn't that hard to pick up some preliminary reads from what went down up to that point. (Mostly parroting the ETL case looked really scummy, though.)

That's blatantly not caring about reads, yet she's picking up on me having reservations about townreading a couple people early on? Okay...

I wanted to give you credit for picking a creative, not-very-mislynchable target, but I just reread this and realized this makes no sense. "Blatantly not caring about reads"? WTF?

[Mina]

Alchemist's posts so far look like he's trying to appear involved without really adding anything - he's asking questions and taken a side on a couple of things, but seems to do so in a way that doesn't add any pressure or lead to any interesting followup. He's my best guess for scum so far. Does anyone (apart from serra) get the same impression?

Empire does.

[Mina]

I haven't played with Patrick! Does he tend to like scum more, Mina?

TBH, I'd vaguely remembered him preferring town, but 1) I could see his team doing the less expected move if they wanted a scum PM, 2) he's a priority for us to sort, 3) I like reaction-fishing, and 4) I like shameless token-fishing even more.

(gtg, so more later.)

[Mina]

How many scum tokens did you put in this game, Alchemist?

[Mina]

None. We put a slight amount into Town for me.

Why?

[Mina]

My favorite alignment is scum, because then you have permission to screw with people. I think I'd like being a Serial Killer better, but so far I haven't had the pleasure (closest I've been was solo'ing a game as the last scum offsite, and I had an unusual game mechanic provide a huge help).

Honesty would have served you better.

Quilford: Because it feels like this player list is really easily PoE-able. You, ETL, and probably serra are town. Now I think Patrick looks town (although he's the one person who I think could really fuck us over if he's scum). Mara looks kind of genuine, except she's sort of in the same general fuzzy bunny scumbag as, e.g., Malakittens in Wicked who posts a lot of nice posts about safer topics, so sure, she can be in my extended lynch pool. But that leaves Alchemist, BPC, and BBmolla. BBmolla is really readable, so we'll know one way or another soon.

And that's without any super-powered innocent children claiming. And without roles that ensure if scum is lynched D1, the game is broken.

I prefer BPC's later posts to his earlier ones, and admittedly, he's someone I can see being middle-of-the-road and overly nice as either alignment. But his earlier posts come across as pretty much the textbook safe, agreeable, "I'm going to say both good and bad things about everyone to keep myself open to lynch them" scumbag. His stances feel middle-of-the-road in a calculated (not sure if that's the best word choice) rather than an indecisive way. Regfan and Empire are annoying and think BPC is town, though. Boo.

[Mina]

I also don't get how people are scumreading me while Townreading BPC. We're doing the same things, just BPC has more words.

Do you think BPC is town?

[Mina]

Mina, why do you think quil is town?

He's really, really, really, really, REALLY easy to read.

[Mina]

Mara, why, in your own words? (p-edit: lol)

If Quilford were scum, then 1) he would barely be posting, and 2) what he would post would be a lot less carefree and relaxed. My team has seen him as scum. He's town unless he took a level in Machiavelli over the summer. (But frankly, he just reads as pretty genuine anyway.)

[Mina]

Hmm...

Quilford, I know you said you agreed with me, but I'd still appreciate something like a list of reads with reasoning from you.

[Mina]

Quilford, Regfan says you're scum who's doing distancing with Alchemist and buddying up to me.

(Not "I think Quilford is scummy." "Hey, guess what, the scum in your game are Alchemist and Quilford." Regfan is weird sometimes.)

Now can you tell me your reads? So he leaves me alone?

(Well, also, there was something I noticed while writing a response to BPC last night I fell asleep in the middle of, so I'd prefer hearing what you say when I'm not prodding you in a certain direction.)

[Mina]

Alchemist, why do we care about all the people who have meta with you again?

[Mina]

Your assumption that I sheeped Mina rests on no solid evidence but on the presupposition that I'm scum, which itself is what you're trying to prove by arguing that I sheeped Mina. In fact, if you looked inside my Team PT you would see that at 8:59.17 am, a full hour before Mina made her reads post in thread,

I posted a reads list basically the same as Mina's bar the position of two names

.

Okay, that sort of clears up what I was looking for, anyway.

(I'm not sure why I'm the one being sheeped when I don't think I even pushed Alchemist particularly hard. But now I'm just fluff-posting until I get home.)

[Mina]

Regfan likes Patrick's posts, but doesn't want to rule him out since he's competent enough to trick him. Who's Mills?

[Mina]

Ask regfan what he thinks of serra

He doesn't have much of one. Should I just summarize the entire Skype message he left me?

UNVOTE: BBmolla

Don't want to vote Alchemist with this big a wagon in a nine-player game, and am waiting for a persuasive explanation from my teammates for why BPC is town.

[Mina]

No. He's one of my top suspects. I mean I don't want to put him at L-1 yet.

[Mina]

Where did I ever assume any of that? You came in and made a weak push on me. The ONLY reason I would have to think you're Town is what you said about my RVS comment. It's so bad I actually wondered if it was you pulling a slayer's gambit; I've seen it floating around in some of the other games.

Please explain what was so shockingly bad about his reasons for voting you. Why do you think he was deliberately trying to look scummy for his? (I can

maybe

understand thinking someone's scum for voting on an RVS post--although it's still a really bad reason to scumread someone--but isn't "it's possible you did so PEOPLE WOULD THINK YOU'RE SCUMMY AND VOTE YOU" a bit over the top? Particularly when using that in defence for why you might come across to be implicitly assuming Molla's town.)

[Mina]

No, I'm not going to join you on the Quilford wagon, Alchemist.

[Mina]

(Try a different push! Maybe you'll have better luck with that one!)

[Mina]

My non-troll answer is that Quilford says some pretty town things on this page, and I don't have more than mild paranoia, 50% of which was influenced by my evil teammates.

@Mina, He's null to me. There are people who take a little while longer to get reads in a game, and he hasn't done anything I would consider alignment indicative.

And why are Quilford and BBmolla (who've had more stances than BPC--Quilford made a case on page two) scummy for "not scumhunting"?

(I read your post as "Why are you townreading my buddy and not me?" and liked that you were implicitly calling yourself scummy, but that was probably influenced by where my reads were at the time.)

It ended up being more a case of "why not"

ETL hit town rediculously early and serras response to me was highly favorable and it's difficult seeing that actually coming from a town perspective.

Can you explain your serrapaladin town read? (I'm not parsing where it comes from.)

[Mina]

@Mina, Show me where he has any reason for voting me other than my RVS vote and his sheeping. How does he actually get a scumread out of what I said in RVS anyway? I thought about the possibility of a slayer's gambit because it seems to be a trend in Team Mafia.

Do you believe it's impossible to get a scum read on someone in RVS?

His later posts were the really town ones, but your case is basically that he's succinct. Aside from this being typical for BBmolla, succinct players aren't such rare creatures that anyone with a bit of experience onsite should be scumreading them JUST for being succinct. So if you're not scum, you're scumhunting very superficially--and inconsistently. (Basically, I agree with 201.) Do you have any scumreads who don't suspect you?

Anyway, I'd like to hear more from people who aren't in a back-and-forth with the Alchemist A couple more obvtown players would be nice before we move forward.

p-edit: I'll explain the read in more detail when I get home, Alchemist. A lot of it is gut, since I guess there are posts that someone could point to and go, "Aha, you're doing THIS superficially scummy thing."

[Mina]

I don't plan on actually being able to read bpc so get back to us on that one

And

Have you played with BPC before? Is this typical for him?

[Mina]

Oh, I generally start out as cocky, when the stakes are low and there's no actual pressure to make a life-or-death decision. Don't worry. The cracks in my sanity will be visible soon. ^_^

(I originally had that worded as "Regfan has weird reads sometimes," since the Quilford-is-obvscum one came out of nowhere to me, but "weird" encompasses both the reads and the overconfidence. Why do you think that's alignment-relevant? Also, doesn't this contradict "Mina has written off Quilford is town"? In all fairness, I'm probably being a lot more inscrutable/succinct with my reads than usual, though--in part because I'm posting in little bits when I'm supposed to be working.)

[Mina]

I fell asleep last night writing it (READ MY POSTS ;_;).

Actually, since it's not going to get a really interesting answer, I might as well give away serrapaladin is what I was driving at re: Quilford here, here, and here. I was reading back in order to respond to you, went, "Huh, serrapaladin's big post is actually a lot less substantial than I remember. Maybe I should reevaluate." So then I had a moment of paranoia about Quilford for being all, "ilu Mina for your gorgeous reads!" (also, since I think that's the point where Empire started chiming in with, "Hey, Mina, watch out for Quilford, because Regfan and I have been TALKING about him" and I started getting paranoid).

As for why I initially townread him...I had a positive reaction to his big post because I agreed with virtually all his opinions, and I just liked the tone for some reason.

ETL I remember there were specific posts I townread (I forget what they are, but I'll look for them when I get home), but it's mostly gut and just that she looked like she was scumhunting in her interactions with Mara/Quilford. Quilford's actual case I thought was..eh, all right for an RVS case? ETL's first few posts were a bit iffy, although I don't know if "jumpy" is the word I'd use and I remember her looking a lot better at the point you jumped in. But your post felt very empty and felt more like it was subtly pushing the ETL-is-scummy-because-look-someone-made-a-case-on-it, but without joining the wagon or really coming across as though you sincerely believed it.

I buy the teammate argument--tbh, I was expecting someone to go, "Omigod, you're subtly casting doubt on Quilford by blaming Regfan." However, Empire and Regfan are both fantastic town players (not that Zar is bad by any means, either!), so their opinions have a lot of weight with me, and we're being very hands-on with each other's games so far. Expect their names to be mentioned a lot more.

[Mina]

Mina, are you good forum scum?

Probably? I think I'm capable of sounding pretty town as scum (although couldn't you just ask CES that?). I don't think I look as town as when I'm actually town, but luckily, it's still enough to fool people! I mean, I don't think most of my posts so far have been particularly unfakeable, although I haven't really been playing very image-consciously so far.

[Mina]

Sorry! If it helps, don't worry, I'll probably be obvtown eventually. I'm just not sure if it's obvious yet from to an objective observer. (You could have also tried the "Boy, Mina is sooooo scary and unlynchable, and so dangerous with her Rising Star/Paragon team" approach, but too late, I guess.)

If it also helps, I'm internally waffling right now! I'm going to keep it out of the thread for now, though.

[Mina]

I think my pool now is still

probably

Alchemist/serra/BPC, which means one of them is scum and the second is some random person I'm misreading because I suck. I have doubts on Alchemist/BPC that I'll keep to myself for now, since I'm a very decisive person with very decisive opinions.

My experience with Quilford is that he hates scum and tends to lurk when he draws it. I can see him still being active D1 in brief spurts, but 1) probably not staying up until 3 AM, and 2) also probably scumreading people for really bad reasons. (I'd thought Empire and Regfan were aware of this, though, so I'll get back to you here.) I also liked the post about how people voting Alchemist bolstered his confidence.

[Mina]

2) also probably scumreading people for really bad reasons.

To elaborate, I remember he made reads lists occasionally when he was hydraing with N, and they were all pretty bad and empty.

(Empire said he played well as Pandora in ADwD, but I remember that being mostly Shadoweh--even his D1 posts were just okay. Patrick, did CES say anything to you about Quilford's meta?)

Oh, another thing. I like that he wasn't forthright with his reads list (although I didn't like him giving the exact time stamp of his PT reads). It seemed like he was voluntarily being less transparent to achieve a goal, which I'm not sure I see scum!Quilford doing.

[Mina]

@BPC, I don't want to do quote stripes, so general responses to this:

1) serrapaladin is now in my pool by PoE, since I have reasons to like most of the player list. He

could

be scum, basically.
2) Quilford saying his readslist wasn't identical to mine meant virtually all the mileage I'd get out of the "why did you sheep a flawed reads list" line of inquiry was gone.
3) Yep, I had an instinctive gut town read on him based on one post that I liked felt like trying. Why do you find that so out of the ordinary?
4) I was hoping to be lazy tonight and not reread all the early ETL stuff, but maybe I'll have to do it. The entire exchange was not all that interesting to me beyond "oh, hey, this post by BPC sounds like a scum post." It has less to do with what you argued and more to do with how.
5) The game started yesterday, and so far, our conflicting schedules, time zones, and sleep patterns mean we've rarely been online at the same time--and when we have, they'll go, "hang on, I want to focus on this game first." As a result, our conversations about Twin Trap haven't really become a dialogue yet. (E.g., Regfan's reads were messages on Skype I saw after he'd gone to bed). Actually, I like that you made the observation about lack of discussion, since it's true so far, but it'll probably change soon

if Empire ever gets back to me about why he town reads you instead of putting it off to watch

The Walking Dead

HEY EMPIRE THIS IS A TEST ARE YOU READING THIS GAME YOU LAZY FUCKER?

6) I don't know, I get why an outsider might dislike it, but I much prefer being transparent and sharing this kind of inter-team stuff, particularly since, e.g., I don't feel comfortable pushing a you-wagon when half my team is against it. (I mostly mentioned the Regfan reads as pressure on Quilford, though.) And frankly, I suspect that people value their opinions more than mine, so I feel compelled to share them.

However, that was at least an improvement, so I'd thank you if you weren't messing with my biases and making the game harder.

[Mina]

Mara, ETL, serra, I'd like to hear more from you, please.

[Mina]

Quilford, as a fair warning I don't think you're going to get anything productive by continuing to argue with Alchemist at this point. I think the case has been made, and turning this into a back-and-forth might start to bog up the thread. Remember the adage about not convincing scum that they're scum?

Doing a reread, but I'm posting this here since my notes will be in spoiler tags and I want it visible.

Ok.. I'll have to check and see if this is how you always do things. I think it's weird.

Did you ever get around to checking up on this?

[Mina]

I think it's really weird that BPC is assigning his own reasons for

my

read.

Can you explain this?

[Mina]

(Hee hee, I was talking with some of my team but deliberately not mentioning this game just to see how long it takes Empire to notice my post. ^_^)

Spoiler: Early game thoughts that became a rambly, wishy-washy stream-of-consciousness wall, so I'm spoilering them

Rereading the early pages to get a better picture of the game. Posts like these I guess is scumhunting. However, it felt like a bit of a stretch (where'd he get the part about her yelling at him?) The wording bugged me because it's just all soft and trying to be nice and friendly...but I interact with BPC a lot, so the tone is probably more a personality than an alignment tell for him.

ETL's Mara vote is pretty bad. Quilford's vote there makes sense in context.

Just noting that Alchemist's RVS post in context is perfectly vote-worthy, so no, BBmolla isn't confirmed scum for doing it. (I would have liked him to weigh in more on Alch's following posts, though, since that seems to be more of what triggered Patrick et al's reaction. I'd appreciate a bit less of a narrow focus.)

I'm not

really

fond of ETL's early posts to me, mostly because her response to me is a bit stretchy and exaggerating stuff. (Also, I didn't really get the impression from Mara that she's overreacting to serra's posts.) Actually, I definitely see what Quilford was going for there in the post numbers he mentioned, even if I'm not sure he's using the best adjective to describe it.

(TBH, I could see Alchemist's posts here as something player-dependent, but I get the not-scumhunting argument, since he's just dissecting other people's arguments/defending people without really contributing.)

Reading more closely, this BPC post makes really solid points, but the last one is wishy-washy and which is what pinged me at first, I think. That in tandem with his next post is probably what triggered my suspicion.

Come on, people, Quilford is town

It's hard to put it into words, but I do think Mara's side of the ETL-Mara exchange looks fairly town. I don't know if I can give a better explanation than "she looks genuine."

It's not really that weird or noteworthy at all?

Okay, Alchemist is probably scum. Kind of boring.

Don't like 58.

I guess ETL's BBmolla vote is somewhat convenient, but I did follow her on it, so it's definitely a plausible reaction.

I liked 68. I'm pretty sure I had a town read on ETL before she switched to BBmolla, though, so now I'm trying to retrace why--I think because her tone was confrontational and I liked that she was getting into the middle of things.

Okay, I guess 71 is good. The follow-up on Quilford is fluffy, but kind of null for BPC.

...wait, apparently, 71 was the post I suspected him for. Um...that's awkward.

Oh, phew! It's the next one I really suspected. (I'll admit that in hindsight, my impression of him posting only fluff was unfair, and probably influenced by his rather soft posting style that I tend to skim a bit--now I see there's an actual progression on how he chases after ETL's Mara argument.)

ETL's 76 is kind of town.

78 is still really wishy-washy (the stuff about Mara is kind of there), but I concede that the part about ETL is much better now that I see it reflected in his earlier posts. At the time, it came off as "there's a case on ETL, which EVERYONE knows is true"--something I see scum do a lot. Goddammit!

Dammit, I like Alchemist's 85, actually, since it's what I was thinking.

Okay, BPC has a tone I'm incapable of not reading as scummy. So many emoticons and exclamation marks. Except I don't think it has anything to do with his alignment.

Oh, I like 99 from ETL, actually.

Okay, Serra's post is fine, and he mirrored virtually everything I was thinking at that point--including ETL's kneejerk being town. Actually, I like his reaction in 108, because he states succinctly my problem with that post. He can still be scum until he gives more of a follow-up, though.

Now is where I'm stopping. However, as a little reward for anyone who opened this spoiler, I'm just noting here that someone on Patrick's team probably put down scum tokens, because I think he'd have claimed with an all-town token distribution. You're welcome.

The tl;dr version is that Mara and BPC (although I'm not fully ready to eliminate him from my suspect pool yet, since I don't think he's said anything unfakeable) look better, while I'm now more suspicious of ETL, because a lot of

her

posts are a bit off/fakeable...but her town play could just be kind of reactive...

.____.

Oh, and also, both Regfan and Empire think ETL is town!

._______________________.

I guess I'm baking Patrick waffles for breakfast.

That didn't take long.

[Mina]

(To be completely fair to Empire, he wasn't feeling well, but trolling is still fun.)

I don't plan on actually being able to read bpc so get back to us on that one

And

Have you played with BPC before? Is this typical for him?

Could you answer this if you're still around, BBmolla?

[Mina]

Quilford, Regfan still thinks you're scum, and made a massive case for why. Stop fluff-posting if you aren't.

(Really busy today, or else I'd talk more about this, since Regfan did a really in-depth reads list with some great points. I know people are fed up with the "my partner disagrees with me" posts, but given Patrick is sheeping my Quilford town read, I feel like I need to be open about the fact it could be flawed. I really want to hear more from ETL, serra, and Mara before moving forward. And stuff from Quilford that isn't about Alchemist21.)

[Mina]

Oh, serrapaladin, Regfan wants to know why you didn't vote in your first post despite having several scumreads.

p-edit: Quilford, not until tomorrow, because I'd rather not be fired. In the mean time, stop playing in a way that makes him scumread you!

[Mina]

Okay, why are you so antsy to get it out of me right now, particularly since you seem to be townreading me? (As a teaser, he did say the "gibbering nervous wreck" post felt like exaggerating how bad it was. And said that you being engaged "wasn't a towntell" when I brought it up, and he only had old meta of you.)

However, as a little reward for anyone who opened this spoiler, I'm just noting here that someone on Patrick's team probably put down scum tokens, because I think he'd have claimed with an all-town token distribution. You're welcome.

2 town on Fenchurch, 2 town on me, no scum. I'd have started this kind of thing if the game had been boring.

Huh, I was expecting CDB to take town tokens over you. Not that it's really relevant to this game.

[Mina]

(I think those weren't his exact words, but please stop talking to me, because I have to work.)

[Mina]

Mina any particular reason you're not interacting with me

Because you look like your town self, so you're not interesting to me. Sorry! <3

[Mina]

Mara, why, in your own words? (p-edit: lol)

If Quilford were scum, then 1) he would barely be posting, and 2) what he would post would be a lot less carefree and relaxed. My team has seen him as scum. He's town unless he took a level in Machiavelli over the summer. (But frankly, he just reads as pretty genuine anyway.)

I'm worried that you think Quil with Reck and UT on his team would be readable by activity alone. I presume that you're right, but I think you're being too simplistic and disregarding context.

serras response to me was highly favorable

Could you walk me through your train of thought here? What would you have expected from me as scum?

BPC looks better with his walls, although Egg warns that as scum he is often townread just for his style. I like that he pressures people on unanswered questions.

We're pretty much unanimous on alchemist-scum. All of his defence looks too safe and he lacks a proper emotional response to being unfairly attacked. It also feels like he's jumping from attacker to attacker to start a wagon on one of them.

I really like one of the things BPC was hinting at, which is that Mina is getting opinions from her team-mates, but failing to integrate them with her own.

Oh, serrapaladin, Regfan wants to know why you didn't vote in your first post despite having several scumreads.

I hadn't made up my mind over which vote I preferred.

@mara: explain your alch read?

I'm not sure she's right, but I do like mara going entirely against the grain.

VOTE: Alchemist (L-1)

"I'm not sure she's right" seems a bit hesitant considering you come across as super-willing to lynch Alchemist and put him at L-1 territory.

Also, I hate hate hate hate hate your stance on me, although admittedly, I'm probably a bit biased on this

I'm in the Quilford/Patrick school of being suspected

. If you suspect me, come out and say it, instead of "hmm, that's a VERY INTERESTING POINT against Mina there." Especially, "I presume you're right" on Quilford's activity, but still "not liking it." It's only suspicious if you think I'm wrong or overeager on him.

[Mina]

I'm writing a big post now. However, can someone corroborate if this is true for me:

I was honest. I prefer being scum because it's usually more enjoyable, but I'm a stronger player as Town, and from a tactical standpoint making me Town is the better move.

[Mina]

I got ninja'd a million times while writing this. Anyway, I'm trying to keep most of my waffling to myself this game. But if you want to know the truth, I've been seriously doubting the Alchemist wagon, in part based on posts like this, this, and this. I mean, I know stuff like "my team says X is scummy" and just generic scumhunting questions is fakeable, but a couple of those looked pretty real. It almost feels as though after a certain point, a switch went off and his posts started looking like scumhunting--I'd probably have a middling town read on him if I only read the second half of his ISO. He doesn't seem particularly stressed out about the wagon on him, either. And I'm sort of caught between not wanting to derail a potential lynch on scum right now (not to mention deal with all the "Why didn't you push him harder?" pestering tomorrow) and...basically how Patrick says he

doesn't

feel about Alchemist.

But it's not as though I have strong enough conviction he's town to actively fight this lynch. So I feel a bit paralyzed right now, to be honest.

It also doesn't help that the rest of my team thinks he's really obviously scum, and were trolling me by pressuring me to quickhammer him for the past hour, which is not helping my confidence

at all

right now (as I was writing this, Regfan actually agreed with me that his response to serra hit a few town notes, although he still suspected him, but still,

it was annoying when it was happening!

).

I do agree that Mara being off on her own world is a point in her favour, and I like her read on Alchemist came roughly when my doubts were emerging. I also agree with Patrick she's unlikely to be scum with Alchemist21. I don't know if I want to outright clear her, just because Mara's post has some moon-logic leaps I don't follow (Where is the read on serrapaladin coming from her? Why Patrick?), but it's not really a scummy sort of moon-logic.

[Mina]

Not sure who you want to corroborate that other than myself. You can check my wiki page and see my game record if you want.

I mean, it'd be much easier if someone who's played with you several times could just go, "Yeah, I've seen him play, and he sucks as scum despite liking it more. He'd

totally

pick town here." I'd much rather not read all your games. Because otherwise, there's a good chance you lied about your token use here.

On that note, ETL, did your teammates mention anything about Alchemist21's meta?

Mina can you answer my meta question about BBMolla please?

Sorry, I got distracted. I think BBmolla tends to be really unconcerned with appearances, loose in his postin, and kind of flippant when he's town. He's aware of this to a certain degree as scum (why he only posts walls in games with alts or where no one knows him), which is why I didn't unvote until he looked like he had conviction in what he was saying. To be honest, I'm probably not overthinking this read all that much, because my entire team is in agreement he's obvtown. (There's a secret tell someone on our team has on him, but it hasn't been triggered yet.)

[Mina]

Ugh, I've lost my old talent for wall-posting. This is taking me forever, and I still have others to write.

5) I can understand full discussion not happening yet, especially with so many games on the go, but that shouldn't stop you from laying down a question in your confessional. It was a over a full day later when you made this post after you said "Regfan and Empire are annoying and think BPC is town, though. Boo." Have you tried further discussion with them on that?

I've talked with Regfan since then (not Empire--still waiting to see if he ever notices I made fun of him!). Apparently, you're his top town read--to summarize the reasons he gave in the PT:
-He likes that you consider the difference between alignment-relevant and bad play here.
-He likes your reaction to my early push and found your explanation for the Quilford read plausible.
-He thought this felt genuine (in particular, the part about an uneasy feeling about me in your PT).
-He likes that you're questioning my Quilford town read, because

he

would be questioning it if he weren't in the game even though he wouldn't suspect me for it. (Regfan has not been happy at all about said read.)
-He likes that you pointed out the lack of communication between us.

Zar also townread you (I think it was because he liked your reaction to serrapaladin much earlier--the specifics are buried somewhere in the enormous Skype logs).

I'm nowhere near as confident, since I think competent scum can fake plausible cases and reads. But I do feel better about you given that the ETL read didn't completely come out of nowhere, and also that some of your posts weren't that fence-sitting in context. (E.g., "This can go either way though. Scum treating a player as town because they know they're town, Town treating a player as an initial read to get things going. It's pretty much WIFOM at this stage!" At the time, I was like, "This is complete wishy-washy filler about Mara--ooh, she could be scum, or she could be town!" but I realized a couple of nights ago your point was that ETL was pushing a WIFOM argument and I felt dumb.) Also, I'm in the same boat as ETL where I'm not interested in pushing someone my teammates are unanimously townreading.

[Mina]

ETL's post is gross

Do you mind explaining why? We got the exact opposite impression.

[Mina]

By the way, can people let me know if I'm spamming too much or walling too much? I'm aware that this is somewhat content-dense for a nine-player game, and I don't want to make this too hard to catch up on.

[Mina]

@BPC: This:

I do agree that Mara being off on her own world is a point in her favour, and I like her read on Alchemist came roughly when my doubts were emerging. I also agree with Patrick she's unlikely to be scum with Alchemist21. I don't know if I want to outright clear her, just because Mara's post has some moon-logic leaps I don't follow (Where is the read on serrapaladin coming from her? Why Patrick?), but it's not really a scummy sort of moon-logic.

Also, I mostly liked her RVS posts. So overall, weak town? There are a bunch of people I like more than her.

TBH, right now, I think Quilford is about as likely to be scum as Mara is. (I want this on the record, in the unlikely event I die and someone goes, "Ooh, Quilford wouldn't have posted on D1.") I think he'd be a really awful lynch for today, because his alignment will become really clear soon. But don't let him coast on, "Look, I'm town I'm town I'm town I'm town I'm town!" Eventually, he'll scumhunt more organically.

[Mina]

*scumhunt organically if he's town. Organically is probably the wrong word, actually. I wish I was allowed to edit posts.

[Mina]

@mina:
You're picking at the grammatical difference between "I'm not sure either Patrick or BB are scum" and "I'm fairly certain Patrick and BB are not both scum", which is silly.

Not even close. I thought you were going for "I'm not sure Mara was right on Alchemist21 being town", which conflicted with ALCHEMISTISTEHSCUMZORZ attitude in the rest of your post. Fair enough if you meant her other reads...but where in hell did the idea that I was picking at a grammatical difference come from?

I didn't say the points against you are interesting, I said I like them a lot, which is tantamount to agreeing with them. You slipping in the word "interesting" is a bit of a misrep. I may not have drawn points against you to a conclusion, but your characterisation of my stance against you is false. Regarding quil: my team and I think your read on Quil is correct independent of your alignment, but I think your justification reflects a lack of thought about the context of the game.

I feel you're trying to twist my words more than engaging with the actual content of my post.

I feel you're nitpicking a tad. Well, yes, if you picked up on the subtle undertones there...duh. Right now, I think you're very likely to be scum here. Both by PoE, and by your-catchup-post-now-was-kind-of-scummy. There might have been a vote in that post if I wasn't allergic to stances, and also kind of paranoid it might create a counterwagon to Alchemist that would wind up saving OBVSCUM through an EASY TOWN MISLYNCH and make everyone hate me. So I was trying to push you so I'd get more information, but it definitely came across in my tone that I found you suspicious.

But don't you think it's a bit of a stretch to call it a misrep? "Interesting" was paraphrasing, but the general vibe I got was "I'm looking sideways at you since there are 'points' agaisnt you but not really doing anything about it." Kind of what I disliked about BPC at first in RVS. This seems like a semantics debate.

What do you think of BPC now?

(Yes, I know we're sort of attacking each other for similar things here. The difference is I'm obviously town and can do whatever I want! ^_^ Neener neener.)

[Mina]

mina what is your experience with the player list?

I've only played with Quilford and BBmolla before. I've seen Patrick play, but have not been in a game with him. BPC I interact with a lot on Skype, but I've never seen him in a Mafia game before.

My teammates have some experience with other players (e.g., Zar modded a game serrapaladin was in and says he was very active there, teammates have said stuff like "So-and-so is bad as town," etc.).

[Mina]

Anyway thanks in advance for all the townreads guys

VOTE: Quilford

[Mina]

UNVOTE: Quilford

Just kidding!

Busy all day, so will answer all the questions at me later.

[Mina]

(Yes, those posts from Quilford were what I was looking for, and we're not lynching him, but he's so eager to be townread I couldn't resist. )

[Mina]

What content do you want me to respond to?

[Mina]

What content do you want me to respond to?

Serious question. I want an answer to this. There were two lines concerning me in that post, neither of which really warranted a response.

(Although BBmolla, that reminds me, shouldn't you a bit warier of me after Marketplace?)

Apparently, I'll have to come right out and say that Patrick looks really town, and this wagon is bad. (Although the way ETL approached it looks genuine.) I'd assumed Patrick townreads were better left unstated.

Also like Quilford's point on Titus being the one providing all the reads, and I'd really like an explanation from ETL/Mara for why serra feels genuine.

[Mina]

Just because Titus is good as scum doesn't mean her opinions are automatically invalid, especially since she's good as Town too.

Frankly I'm not surprised at your reaction here. If I were scum in your place, and the guy scumreading me had the impressive think-tank of Titus, ABR, and BBT behind him, I'd probably be shitting my pants too.

You think Quilford is scum even after all those analysis posts? I thought your case on him was he wasn't scum hunting.

[Mina]

Miiiiina every time you forget to post the Regfan case, Catbug gets angrierrrr

Gah, I only have phone access until probably tomorrow, and I'm supposed to be socializing with family.

Just because you're impatient, and also because I acknowledge this is kind of time-sensitive (*three days later* "Here's the case that I totally didn't make up!"), I'll be rude.

From the Skype messages where he calls the scum team: he says your interactions with Alchemist look awkward and like distancing. Also, that you're buddying up to me and seem reluctant to out your reads.

From his reads list in the PT: there's a discrepancy in tone between some of your posts (not sure I fully get this one), he thinks you're just trying to look busy in 142 when you already townread me, the timing and feel of your Alchemist vote felt like distancing, you undersell your scum play in 199 and have mechanical reasons for suspecting Alch that make him think you have inside knowledge.

Oh, he also said your reads in The Second Fortnight were a lot more intuitive.

Everyone else will have to wait until tomorrow for Mina answers. But you can survive 16 whole hours without a post from me

assuming I can

.

[Mina]

Back! I'm sorry, because I'm going to spam the thread by answering stuff one post at a time.

@Patrick: this post pretty much sealed the read for my team. But beyond that, there are a bunch of little comments here and there that look like sincere scumhunting, casual references to your team discussions, deliberations while reading meta... None of them look calculated. If you were just generically competent and making Standard Intelligent Scumhunting Posts, I'd probably be a bit more paranoid, but you come across as very genuine and transparent about your thought process and doubts. (I think I've seen you play as both alignments in some meet game or other, and got the impression that "Town Patrick = obvtown," "Scum Patrick = protown," but I don't remember specifics.)

But that's enough compliments for this game.

ETL, what do you think of all this?

[Mina]

And I'm sort of caught between not wanting to derail a potential lynch on scum right now (not to mention deal with all the "Why didn't you push him harder?" pestering tomorrow) and...basically how Patrick says he doesn't feel about Alchemist.

Can you clarify what that means? From your post it seems like you have quite alot of doubt.

I was talking about this post, because you said this soon after Alchemist started coming in with the "my teammates say this" stuff that felt much better than his prior stuff and gave me a sort of sinking dread.

(Yes, I know we're sort of attacking each other for similar things here. The difference is I'm obviously town and can do whatever I want! ^_^ Neener neener.

Why? Genuine question, feel free to self-meta.

In all honesty, I think the strongest reason to townread me is Regfan, because our team interactions should really be blatantly genuine at this point.

Any self-meta answer I give is a lot more subjective and possibly inaccurate, because, e.g., I'm sure I'd be a lot more nervous and less loose in my posting as scum, but it's hard to gauge how much of my mental state comes across in the thread. (And obviously I'd try to look town as scum and fake being loose!) In part because I was posting from work, my early play was very close to my chest, and geared more towards gaining reactions/reads than looking town--I think I'd be a bit more conservative as scum (but this is why self-meta sucks, because I can't predict exactly what I'd do or whether I'd be in the right headspace or brave enough to pull this off). I've been trying to be a bit more transparent with my thought process since a few people started looking at me sideways, even though my thought process tends to be a wishy-washy mess most of the time.

I mean, I don't mind a bit of mild "MAYBE SHE'S REALLY SCUM BECAUSE SHE'S MACHIAVELLI WHO COULD WRAP THE TOWN AROUND HER FINGER" paranoia (I don't get enough compliments nowadays, so I'll pretend you've actually read my scumgames to get that impression), but I think I've been obviously scumhunting and playing toward a town wincon, and I don't feel like actively trying to look more town than I do. At least, I think my play is town enough as a whole that serrapaladin's little digs seem to be taking points out of context while not looking at everything else I've done.

[Mina]

At the time of reading this post, this is approximately where I'm at with Mara and Quilford (Quilford to a lesser extent on your reasons, I don't know his meta, just interactions on site chat). I'm assuming with his recent play, you're reading him as 'scumhunting organically'?

Like I said, "organically" probably wasn't the right word. But I had vestigial paranoia that he would only scumhunt superficially and rely on the "I suck as scum, I used town tokens, I'm totally town!" bravado that has helped Tammy carry scum games. Those posts eliminated that doubt. And also, they just look really really town (but don't tell Quilford). I don't want to oversell my knowledge of Quilford's meta, since it's more "general idea of his competence level as scum", but this is definitely not his scumgame.

BPC I interact with a lot on Skype, but I've never seen him in a Mafia game before.

Maybe more a hypothetical question, but I'm curious. What would you expect my play to be like before this game started?[/quote]
Probably nice, and a bit soft and wishy-washy regardless of alignment. I was also expecting you to be manipulative and hard to read (since you'd mentioned coming second in that Survivor game and losing due to your ruthlessness, and also since you're charming and good with people), and Molla seemed to corroborate this at first. You and ETL say otherwise, though.

[Mina]

I don't see it anywhere in your ISO. (Unless you mean why Quilford is town, which I answered and which has different/stronger reasons now, anyway). Do you remember what it was?

[Mina]

*pokes game*

Sorry I'm being so useless--I'm sort of stressed by a bunch of things, and Mafia exacerbates that, so I don't really have the resolve right now to do one of the maybe three things that would shake up this game.

p-edit: just checking. Am I'm scum because I "didn't integrate my teammates' reads with my own", or is there more than that? Do you genuinely think that's the strongest piece of evidence out there right now?

[Mina]

Though, the fact that this happened (doubts on alchemist read) is important. Do you really think other competent Hunters are completely unable to see where alchemist is possibly town

I'm just rephrasing what Patrick already said, but since you wanted me to weigh in, he obviously didn't mean that Alchemist had no chance of being town. He outright said that he's not 100% sure Alchemist is scum. I certainly don't think Alch is obvtown by any means (it's more "he's not obvscum"). If Alch had made Quilford-style reads posts, then his not having doubts would be different.

@Patrick: I realize I'm just being really, really wishy-washy now and my thoughts are all muddled and inconsistent, which is part of why I'm not posting. Alchemist doesn't look anywhere near as town as most, and I had almost worked up the courage to threaten a hammer after his really, really superficial and garbage BBmolla PBPA. But then even though his Quilford case sucked, it felt somewhat more genuine, and had the part about ABR coming in and declaring Quilford town and me scum....now when I write this out, I realize that these are kind of shitty reasons. And then the game died when he was at L-1, which made me paranoid. (And then he asked Mara a question, which means he's scumhunting, so of course that means I shouldn't hammer him! (I wish I was making this up.)) Also, now I have a mystery third suspect (who I still wouldn't lynch over Alch/serra).

But I'd probably lynch serrapaladin if I were alone (as in, ignoring both the rest of the town AND my teammates). Except I could be blinded by OMGUS + maybe he'll wow me with his catch-ups tonight... Argh.

Um...do people mind if I just...not take any stances whatsoever for the next little bit until I do some meta research?

[Mina]

THERE GOES MY SANITY.

[Mina]

Sometimes, I feel like I've become a parody of myself. It's terrifying.

I'm just rephrasing what Patrick already said, but since you wanted me to weigh in, he obviously didn't mean that Alchemist had no chance of being town. He outright said that he's not 100% sure Alchemist is scum. I certainly don't think Alch is obvtown by any means (it's more "he's not obvscum"). If Alch had made Quilford-style reads posts, then his not having doubts would be different.

Don't think I worded this correctly. If Alch had responded to pressure with Quilford-style fuzzy-bunny posts, then Patrick going, "he really doesn't look that particularly townish" would bug me. I feel like Alch's reaction is a lot more grey here--he's posting a lot and hits the right notes occasionally, but not in an obvtown way.

p-edit: why would you do that? Maybe he was going to claim a role! Fuck.

[Mina]

Part of me is almost relieved it was taken out of my hands. Well, it was an inevitabilty.

[Mina]

I'm sorry if you're town, Alchemist.

But not if you're scum.

ETL/serra, do you want to get your thoughts out before the game goes to night?

[Mina]

BB fooled all the wrong people.

I don't think it fooled anyone, actually. <_< Because that was ridiculously transparent.

[Mina]

Well it was fun

Good acting Mina

I'd thought that was terrible acting, but thanks!

Um, chat Mafia. I'm walking while on my phone now, but...

Guess what, ETL? You were my mystery suspect. How does that feel?

Mara, at absolute worst, Molla is null because he could do.a gambit as scum he'd do as town (but he looks town anyway). How does this mean you should votepark him?

[Mina]

Also, WHY IS SERRA TOWN?

[Mina]

Tiers:

Alchemist, serrapaladin
ETL, BPC, Mara
Quilford, BBmolla, Patrick

All I need is to be more confident on the middle group.

[Mina]

BPC, please give me a reason to be confident you're town.

[Mina]

(and yes, those are Westeros-style tiers, where top is scummiest, and bottom is most innocent. Anyone who lynches anyone in my bottom tier this game should be ashamed and feel bad at Mafia)

p-edit: I kind of think that I'm pretty transparent at this point, BPC, and to return the favour, I didn't like you trying to paint Mara's reaction as scummy when I thought it wasn't actually alignment-relevant. Let's both glare at each other suspiciously !

[Mina]

Um, care to explain that, ETL (and the indifference to being my MYSTERY SUSPECT)?

Mara, why is serra town, though??? Not Alch.

[Mina]

because it fucking bothers me.

...you know, I think I would be mad at literally anyone else for claiming that. But thanks for attracting a NK away from someone who's even slightly on track!

[Mina]

Oh, sorry, ETL! That was at Mara. No clue why I quoted you.

[Mina]

Can I wait for serra to come out with his catch-up before hammering?

[Mina]

If I'm a watcher, I'm not watching Mara tonight!

[Mina]

No, Alchemist, you missed the point. We're TRYING to kill off Mara here.

I'm pretty dead tonight, so.

THEN WHY THE FUCK DID YOU CLAIM IF YOU KNEW THAT YOU WERE GOING TO TIOASHIHSRIRHIORYIOYIOJAIJOSRY

[Mina]

We need to lynch the watch-immune goon today. That's the only way to keep trackerMara alive.

If we lynch the watch-immune goon, the watcher watches you. It would be suicide for the other scum to attack you because they'll get caught.

These two posts might actually be the most damning pieces of evidence against Alchemist, actually.

HE'S TRYING TO WHEEDLE TOWN INTO KEEPING MARA ALIVE.

[Mina]

WHO NEEDS A TRACKER, ANYWAY?

SHE'LL PROBABLY JUST TRACK PATRICK, AND THEN LIE ABOUT HER RESULT.

[Mina]

Where is BPC?

[Mina]

I'm waiting for serra to post, Quilford.

[Mina]

By the way, I'd feel guilty about starting a flash wagon now.

=20537&user_select[]=0&user_select[]=0&user_sort=Go]Here is serrapaladin in Zar's Holiday Bash.

serrapaladin is scum. No questions. He gets lynched tomorrow.

[Mina]

Um...

Here is the game. You can ISO him for yourselves.

Gah. I should have voted him right away.

[Mina]

Hmm...

VOTE: serrapaladin

[Mina]

He also does this mysterious thing called "scumhunting" in there.

And "reacting naturally to things."

[Mina]

Alchemist, are your top suspects still Quilford and BBmolla?

[Mina]

ETL, when you get back (whether it's tomorrow morning or D2), could you explain what the difference is between my wishy-washiness and Patrick's supposed wishy-washiness? What do you think of his reaction to Mara?

[Mina]

Also, what's your read on BBmolla now? (at ETL)

[Mina]

Sorry I ducked out there, had some pressing issues in another gameeee (Survivor game, not mafia, had to run a challenge that took like 3 hours).

I want to break my phone.

I am tracker, lynch pat NOW

Alright. Mara. First, this was just not an okay move. But you've been told that 20 times by now. By focusing on your primary lynch target, you're being kinda selfish. One thing I take into any game is knowing that my reads are not end all be all, I don't think any one's can be. Some more respected than others, but anyways, by claiming this you're assuming a town read on you will automatically get your reads trusted. What you should realize is that, that's not something that's just gonna happen. There needs to be good reason for a lynch target, no matter if your alignment is known or not. I am not convinced at all by your argument on Patrick right now.

Can you please take the time and run through with me what your exact case is here? I want to understand your logic.

^And this is an example of why I'm incapable of town-reading you. Your tone just reads as scummy to me, dammit!

I'm kind of baffled by how you still have BBmolla as a top suspect, Alchemist, even after "wavering." That said, this game has definitely taught me that read quality is not always alignment-indicative.

(I'm going to bed, after which I'll probably wake up to see no serra catchup post.)

[Mina]

BPC, why haven't you discussed the fact Alchemist21 is at L-1, or mentioned whether you would/would not hammer? IIRC, he was your top suspect along with me, and you don't seem to be pushing an alternative lynch very strongly.

[Mina]

!!!

hmm also i should note quil read not as strong as mina read. definitely leaning on her a bit here.

serra read is mine - several games and hydraing with him gives me a good base there.

actually was considering switching quil with serra. bpc read is my team's. sthar also thinks quil could be scum.

HEY, ETL, PROVE THAT THIS ISN'T BULLSHIT SOFT-DEFENDING YOUR SCUMBUDDY!

WHEN I JUST FOUND META SHOWING THIS IS NOTHING LIKE HIS NORMAL PLAY.

Unless as your hydra buddy, he posted almost nothing whatsoever.

[Mina]

You'll thank me for this on Day 2!

[Mina]

Bah.

I don't agree with most of those reads, nor the assumption that 1) Alch's partner wouldn't bus (believe me, there's no chance of any counterwagon happening now, so if he's scum, most people with inside knowledge of his alignment probably would have bussed by this point and taken the free town cred hammer!), or 2) one of Quilford-Alchemist HAS to be scum. But...sure?

New thing to wait on: BPC catching up.

[Mina]

ETL, even Regfan thinks Quilford is town now.

Regfan.

[Mina]

I had the opposite impression--since tmost people look really, really town now? I still think scum are in {Alchemist, serra, ETL, BPC} (and ETL and BPC have a few town notes). I'm just trying to pin down a reason to strongly townread ONE of them.

But *holds you*

[Mina]

I explained my reasoning on Patrick before when he asked me why I wasn't paranoid of him, but now Molla and Patrick are practically confirmed town after the hammer+claim debacle last night. (Their absolute rage, the whole "let's treat this like chat Mafia thing," etc.) On that note, to ETL:

What do you think of [Patrick's] reaction to Mara?

[Mina]

Mara, I know it seems crazy, but some of us are actually here trying to win this game as town while you're trolling us, entering yourself for team mafia and then claiming for no reason at all. I watched your painful play in maneuvre, where you pursued CDB all of day 1 while he tried to lynch scum who DIDN'T LOOK THAT DIFFERENT to alchemist right now, and then watched you fake claim a roleblock on him because you were that sure you were right. I thought maybe it was a one-off, but you do you actually do this in every game you play?

Seriously, what happens when I'm dead as town? You just sit on bb and do nothing?

Mara you are actually terrible at this game.

Mina, having seen her do it once, I think she has it in her.

Mara just got herself rated bottom of everyone's lists when the game is over.

I have to go to bed. It's past 2am and I haven't been so pissed off in a long time. If alchemist tries to use his last post to transition onto me, he should be killed with fire immediately.

[Mina]

And Patrick is generally very cool and level-headed, so for him, this is rage-posting.

[Mina]

@ETL: it's that he seems genuinely upset by Mara's claim, which I don't think he'd fake to that degree as scum given it's not his playstyle.

Bah, okay, we're just spamming the thread and going in circles now.

BPC AND POSSIBLY SERRA, HURRY UP.

[Mina]

ETL, I'm not sure how alignment-relevant this is, but let me explain what Quilford is going for:

BB's town.

Patrick being in first position makes me less inclined to think he's scum

, at least not as much as Quilford or Serra.

So if alch were lynched and flipped town

, I'd be looking at those two, with a preference on quil as my team keeps yelling at me about him.

This reads as though IF ALCHEMIST IS TOWN, Patrick is less likely to be scum. Is that what you meant to say?

[Mina]

Oddly enough, I think ETL is town now.

[Mina]

(Well, at least, lynch BPC over her if it ever gets down to that.)

[Mina]

FUCK IT

VOTE: Alchemist21

NOTE THAT BPC AND SERRA HAVE LURKED THROUGH ALL THIS

[Mina]

Quilford, I agree with ETL that this has nothing to do with her alignment anymore.

[Mina]

Eep.

If Alchemist flips town, I was going to say the team is BPC-serra. Except then I realized that they're literally the entire source of any scumreads on me this game, so that's unlikely. Both scum pushing the same unpopular suspect is weird--they'd want one town to support them first. That makes me feel better about this flip.

ETL has some bad logic and weird reads, but feel this is a Mara situation, and her reaction to Quilford's push looked like townish outrage. But she's by far my weakest town read.

Did like BPC's reaction to my "why didn't you discuss the hammer?", FWIW. But I don't like that he's quiet when shit goes down.

tl;dr: It's probably still serra-Alchemist!

[Mina]

I believe you about last night. But generally, once it becomes a pattern (and when people are really eager to give RL excuses for being quiet), it starts being a warning side. At minimum, being around and in the thick of things makes people look more town.

And part of why I waited so long to hammer was because I thought you wanted to catch up now.

[Mina]

Bah.

VOTE: serrapaladin

[Mina]

Talking is fine, although serra and BPC talking would be even better. Thanks to Mara's narcissistic antics, it looks like we'll be relying 100% on talking to solve the game.

Without reevaluating my town reads, BPC or ETL mostly because that's who I'd suspect if serra wasn't town. ETL probably fits better, just because of how serra parroted BPC's read on me and ETL's reasons for townreading him felt like BS. My team's town read on BPC has vanished, though.

Disappointed that was the one kill that didn't make Patrick confirmed town.

[Mina]

*who I'd suspect if serra was town.

[Mina]

Serra, if you're still around, has your team been weighing in at all on this game? Also, why didn't you post the night that you'd promised to catch up or the morning after, right before Alchemist was lynched?

She also has Regfan on her team, and if she had honestly been discussing my meta with her team rather than looking for points to use, I'm sure he'd have told her about Joss Whedon mafia

where I lurked my way to lylo as an IC.

...I'm probably not the right person to be confessing this to. Just saying.

*twitch*

[Mina]

...I'm probably not the right person to be confessing this to. Just saying.

*twitch*

Never mind, someone corrected me that you mean the

other

kind of IC.

[Mina]

Molla, Zar wants reasoning from shos on the Quilford scum read. (I think because he trusts his judgment due to Hilariously Unbalanced Mafia.)

Quilford, re: this, do you believe ETL's explanation for where she put Patrick in her list was scummy? And can you explain why you were having niggles on Molla and Patrick (but not me) here?

[Mina]

Patrick, why are you the only person on your team who's not posting during the meet? Also, how different is your town and scum play?

[Mina]

...yep, we are completely fucked.

JohnnyFarrar, there are more questions I'm waiting until you finish your catch-up to ask you, but can you explain the dichotomy between "I'm having a hard time seeing Quil as town thanks to Mina" and "Meh, I could be persuaded to vote Mina"? FTR, my dig at Alchemist was because at the time, I thought he was scum, not a bad player--his asking me about Quilford read to me as self-preservationist "Fuck, I need a town counterwagon to save myself. Can I wheedle you onto this one?"

ETL, can you explain how you went from "I almost put serrapaladin in my towniest town tier" to "I'm not town-reading serrapaladin" to voting his slot? Even if you'd apparently hydra'd with him and known he was lurky, shouldn't that make him at best null or weakly town and not probtown? And if your read was that strong, I don't get why you reversed it now. Also, is your only objection to JF's catch-ups his comment on you?

(I've started skimming old BPC ISOs. Given my extremely limited sample size so far, if there's an alignment-relevant pattern beyond "his tone always sounds scummy to me!", I haven't seen it yet, although I haven't got to the part of his scum games where he's supposed to start lurking.)

[Mina]

Quilford, has your team contributed any thoughts this game beyond Reck saying BBmolla is obvtown?

[Mina]

This is depressing.

Quilford, has your team contributed any thoughts this game beyond Reck saying BBmolla is obvtown?

No haha we are so lazy

I think I'm the most contributory of us 4, and that's not saying much

They aren't reading the game, but then Reck popped in and said that BBmolla was town and nothing else? When was this?

ETL, while you're at it, what happened to pretty much all your reads from yesterday?

[Mina]

And can you answer the first thing I asked you?

[Mina]

Also, can you explain how did they get so fucked up by an Alchemist town flip?

[Mina]

I meant this (although you answered part of it):

ETL, can you explain how you went from "I almost put serrapaladin in my towniest town tier" to "I'm not town-reading serrapaladin" to voting his slot? Even if you'd apparently hydra'd with him and known he was lurky, shouldn't that make him at best null or weakly town and not probtown? And if your read was that strong, I don't get why you reversed it now. Also, is your only objection to JF's catch-ups his comment on you?

[Mina]

Also, can you answer part one of the serra thing?

[Mina]

ETL, can you explain how you went from "I almost put serrapaladin in my towniest town tier" to "I'm not town-reading serrapaladin" to voting his slot? Even if you'd apparently hydra'd with him and known he was lurky, shouldn't that make him at best null or weakly town and not probtown?

You sort of answered the second part. I'm sorry if I'm being pushy, but I'm really having trouble following your thought process, and I'm starting to become frustrated with this game.

[Mina]

Um, it's more the last sentence in that quote I want an answer to.

[Mina]

UNVOTE: JohnnyFarrar

[Mina]

Sorry, I'm a killjoy.

[Mina]

It's the least interesting thing ever. Putting him at L-1 right now is dumb.

[Mina]

ETL, certain people have done nothing today, and he hasn't finished his catch-up. I don't want a Alchemist Pt. 2. We can wait. What's your rush?

[Mina]

There's no need to be unpleasant.

Now it's less a question than a comment--my question would have been "where are all the town reads in your catch-up?" But I wanted to see what you'd come up with when you weren't tailoring your posts toward appeasing me. Apparently, your one town read is Quilford. Can you restate why?

I liked serra's replace-out, actually, and frankly wish your contributions blinded me with towniness given you make some decent observations and you're one of the only people playing the game. But I feel as though your catch-up overall was scum-motivated. The vast majority of your observations were:
1) pointing out small reasons of varying quality to call people scummy.
2) complaining about how the one person we've already lynched, Alchemist21, was apparently more town than every single other player in the game except for Quilford. (I've always thought the "chastising players for the lynch" scumtell was overrated, but you're so attuned to every piece of blinding innocence from our top suspect D1, and yet can't see similar signs coming from most living players?)

Most people's reads tend to be more holistic and evolving, as opposed to "here are a bunch of posts justifying why I could vote out 2/3 of the game." (You say, "I could vote this person just so they wouldn't be in LYLO" or "I could be persuaded to vote this person" multiple times as reactions to single posts.) The closest thing to a big-picture read is Patrick, but he's not in your lynchpool not because he's town, but because he hasn't "done anything scummy."

And with all these reasons, your vote is on someone essentially for lurking?

And I almost regret posting this, because it's giving people a case to latch onto instead of doing any of their own scumhunting.

[Mina]

Johnny, are you more of a logical or a gut player? How would you rank people in order of most to least likely to be scum?

[Mina]

The fuck is this? Is it a joke?

Mostly!

@Mina would you characterize yourself as someone who often acts against mob mentality?

Yep, although I often don't have the self-confidence to push an alternative through.

[Mina]

Not a super big fan of the Johnny lynch, especially not until BPC gives us something.

Can you explain why (to the first part, not the last part)?

ETL, where does the me-JF theory come from? I feel like it's a very strange connection to make, particularly given what your reads were yesterday.

[Mina]

I don't get you

Don't worry, the feeling is mutual! (I don't mean this in a mean way.) But I do want an actual answer.

[Mina]

I don't get you

Don't worry, the feeling is mutual! (I don't mean this in a mean way.) But I do want an actual answer.

I dunno. just felt right at that moment.

shzyhizorhy;ziohaighusilgte:PSEhrpiUjdgtlsgt;stiguayguidlgisuegjsdgljdsla

[Mina]

I can't post anything substantial until tomorrow night because of work. So only brief comment: Patrick, for one thing, I'm pretty sure I've never been at a meet with you while you were in a forum game, to my knowledge, so I have no clue why you think my question is "weird at best." And you're not obligated to post at a meet. However, given I kept refreshing the forums and seeing your teammates show up as the most recent posters, yes, Black Goo clearly making it a priority to keep up with their games while you were completely disconnected from yours started making me really paranoid (particularly since I think I might be underestimating you). Sorry if it's unfair to penalize you for having teammates who care. But at minimum, I'd expect the teammates who are masochistic enough to play forum Mafia at meets to be reading your game.

Also, sorry, the window of time from the start of the game for when you're allowed to have bad scumreads on me has closed (leaving aside I don't think BPC and I make much sense as a scumteam, anyway).

[Mina]

Okay, seriously, I don't know if I'm just the one who's not used to the pace of small games, but if this keeps up, we're going to lose this game. Without a lot of real-time interaction, scum can just coast on their D1 laurels if they left a town impression then. Come on, people, this is Team Mafia. *waves pompoms*

I might be just talking to talk. But Quilford:

1) Can you elaborate on "assertive responses to your question"? Not sure I see what you mean.
2) Re: the thing about semantics which I can't quote on my phone, my point was at the moment you MADE that post, did you find ETL scummy for the semantics disagreement there? If so, why? Or were you just rhapsodizing on scumhunting techniques? Zar found that post noteworthy, but I don't want to say why until you answer.

Patrick, why the hyperbole in "might have a hope in hell of being town"? You seemed a lot more ambivalent on serrapaladin yesterday (in that your read seemed more PoE).

[Mina]

I've been rereading and rethinking a couple of things, but it's past my bedtime, so the results will come tomorrow night. First, the stuff that takes no effort!

1) Patrick, asking about your absence was moreso trying to reassure myself about you (in part because I'd followed some of the links in JF's catch-up and was suddenly getting the same "boring and reasonable" vibe from a few of posts, in part because Ether described you as "tricksy" at the Montreal meet, and in part because I thought I was wrong about everything at the beginning of D2). It's not like anyone would follow me even if I was scum pushing a mislynch based on that reasoning. That last post (along with a dose of sanity from Regfan) made me feel much better--my one question (which I'm asking mostly to dot my is and cross my ts) is what reasons your teammates gave for scumreading me, unless there's a strategic reason for you not to reveal it. Do you mean "heading in the right direction" reads-wise/partnership-wise?

2) BPC, what are your reads right now? They seem conspicuously absent from your catch-ups. Why are you asking me my read on serra in response to a post where I voted serra? (Or Molla's in a post where he said he'd vote serra, for that matter.)

3)

Where is this coming from? Did you actually expect Mara not to flip tracker there?

I said the one kill, not the one flip. Although a Mara NK doesn't make Patrick scum, the only person scum!Patrick would have ever killed is Mara. Any other kill would've meant the scumteam left confirmed town PR Mara alive to push Patrick's mislynch. (It was pointed out to me your reaction is a scumtell, by the way.)

4)

How did this searching go? Also, I don't know how you don't notice my lurking in all games here

Actually, I hadn't got far at all, and I only mentioned it in the first place in the hopes of magically drawing you out of the woodworks, in which case I'd vote you. ^_^ Haven't had time to do more. And now you've gone from "I lurk when I'm scum!" to "I always lurk"?

5)

Mina had a strong townread on serra

Not true. I listed my townreads and said "probably serra" in them.

6) Quilford, why did Reck only comment on BBmolla, anyway? I'd have thought he'd naturally develop reads on non-Molla players from reading closely enough to come to a conclusion about anyone's alignment. (Sorry to bombard you with questions, but you need to be strongly town before I can switch back into overconfident mode.)

[Mina]

7) JF, read on BBmolla. Explanation for why it's not a town read on BBmolla. Go!

[Mina]

2) Coming in a bigger way when I read through ISOs in a more detailed fashion. My current stances are lean scum on you, lean town on Johnny, town on ETL, not sure on Patrick, not sure on Quilford, lean town on molla.

And I'm asking you to clarify read on serra, like why do you think scum is there exactly, or at least at that point.

So you think the scumteam is me/Patrick or me/Quilford? If you were reading the posts of your top suspect, then you'd know why I suspected serra, and you'll see it when you read my ISO, anyway.

3) I'm probably still misunderstanding, but I don't think any scum team would have not killed mara in this instance? She was basically conf tracker and anybody leaving a PR in would probably be crazy.

Also, how is this a scumtell?

Town go, "Omigod, I wonder who's going to die tonight and what it means!" Scum have less curiosity about the kill, and go, "Omigod, I hope the claimed tracker actually flips tracker!"

Question: considering the mislynches you'd need to win, would you have killed anyone aside from Mara if you were part of the following scumteams:
-you/JF
-you/ETL
-you/Quilford

4) What do you mean drawing me out of the woodworks here and voting me? Would me posting right after that post have been a scumtell for you?

And yes, I pretty much always lurk, you'll see this from...every game I play in

Yes, it would have been a massive scumtell. And I know much of your inactivity is shitty real-life stuff outside your control. But I still don't like that originally, you were defending yourself by saying you'd be lurking if you were scum, but now that you've lurked, you're saying it's a null tell for you.

[Mina]

Sorry, I was completely drained after work the past couple of days. Also, now I'm no longer sure of the stuff I'd reevaluated on, so...blah. I should have time for this today.

[Mina]

In a normal game, people should be bitching me out for not having done anything I promised. However, I'm sorry for being all self-righteous and hypocritical about how everyone should contribute, but then not doing anything to help. I'm still at {JF-BPC-ETL}, but doing anything more to break the stalemate in my mind between them involves analysis and meta research rather than just posting off the top of my head, and I had trouble concentrating on it yesterday. (On Friday, I'd actually downgraded JF below BPC and ETL as a suspect, but then I lost my confidence in this again. Also, BPC having ETL as the only person who's solid "town" instead of "leaning town" is weird if she's his scumbuddy...although it's pretty weird if she's NOT his scumbuddy--uh, BPC, why the fuck are your reads? Yes, that's an actual question. Why are your reads?)

Molla and ETL, though, please talk.

[Mina]

Johnny for town imo

I know nothing whatsoever about Johnny's normal play, but this doesn't look like a particularly town form of aggression. Especially since his tone is very slick at points.

[Mina]

Patrick, do you still think any combination of {BPC, JF, ETL} works?

(Genuine question. I'm getting paranoid.)

[Mina]

I ISO'd BBmolla last night, and TBH, right now, I think he's probably the most likely of the Patrick-Quilford-BB trio to be scum, since there are fewer moments that make me go, "OMIGOD, THIS IS UNFAKEABLE." (Already talked about Patrick, and although Quilford's play can be sloppy and has surface-level things to attack, I feel like there's depth behind his scumhunting that I don't think he could fake, like his thought process in the whole "Townread me, plz!" posting spree where he reacts to how his reads were mirrored by other people.) I think Molla's play sounds genuine overall, but when reading his ISO through the lens of paranoia, I could see him faking a lot of the flippancy and one-liner reads--I'd have felt better if he seemed more engaged today. The strongest reason to townread him is his fury at Mara rather than his hammer gambit, IMO. It felt pretty real to me at the time.

If I wasn't a terrible person who should never play Mafia and hasn't even updated the newbie queue yet and also I can feel myself about to pass out any minute and I still haven't cooked dinner for tomorrow or filed my taxes for ages or washed like a week's worth of dishes and Thursday/Friday I have two 9:00 AM-10:00 PM work days in a row because I did nothing on my day off and I hate myself and it'll be my fault when town loses...okay, let me end this sentence. As I was saying, if I was playing well, I'd have a bunch of questions for Molla and dig up some "townier" scum!Quilford posts from Pandora/upside down to show the significant difference in tone/scumhunting style. (Although I get the occasional Regfan rebuttal of "IT'S TEAM MAFIA, OF COURSE HE'D BE TRYING HARDER" when I bring that up as an argument, I still feel like it's night and day.)

[Mina]

Stop acting town, ETL. The game is broken if you're town.

[Mina]

I mean, you have to be scum with one of JF/BPC, silly! And the other is the scum mislynch bait. Didn't you get the message? This means there's order in the world, and it's not a darkhorse Quilford/Patrick team. Please don't do things to conflict with that narrative, kay? It's bad for my sanity.

[Mina]

Nothing much changed since I last said it, so yes. I think there are a few oddities in some cases (like the serra BPC both attacking you thing you brought up on day 1), but nothing that strongly speaks against any of those teams.

More that ETL has got into a fight with JF, JF has

sort of

got into a fight with BPC (he's distancing hard if they're scum--yes, it's POSSIBLE, but it's just very easy, just as D1 was very eadsy), and I seriously, unironically think BPC randomly putting ETL as his strongest town read (while scummy as well)

Random moment of paranoia time: why did your town read on me start getting stronger right when I stopped posting? Shouldn't this be when you'd be getting LESS sure of the {JF-BPC-ETL} PoE pool rather than more so?

...

...

...okay, I don't think I've done this yet this game, so since it's a tradition:

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

[Mina]

EBWOP: I seriously, unironically think BPC randomly putting ETL as his strongest town read (while scummy as hell) is not something he'd do to his actual buddy (this may sound like ridiculous logic, but this tell has worked for me a lot in the past).

[Mina]

What do people think of the odds that Alchemist was an all-town wagon? I was thinking it's possible because of how the game just

died

when he hit L-1, since no one had any motivation to either leave his wagon or push elsewhere (but I guess WIFOM and the scum would be happy parking their vote there as well and keeping momentum on him).

[Mina]

Thanks for not responding to the post where I call you town and fitting more neatly into the narrative, ETL. <3

[Mina]

Yeah, I still think Molla is very likely town after looking at his ISO again. Just his entire reaction to the Mara claim, his conviction in Alchemist's guilt near the end...However:

Pretty confident I'm not changing my vote ever

This was stated really early in the game, based on that one RVS post that I think is more

likely

to come from scum, but is far from 100% damning evidence--town make fluffy filler posts in RVS all the time. Um...can you explain your conviction in this? It feels overblown.

If anyone has Alch meta it couldn't hurt though

Did you ever look at the Alch meta Patrick provided?

Because depending on whether I'm wrong or right means very different people are scum

Which very different people are scum? I don't see evidence of your reads changing today.

Lastly, why do you not seem to be questioning your town read on me very seriously? I'd have expected some paranoia after

Marketplace

. And why didn't you answer me the first time I asked this question?

[Mina]

Also, molla, have your teammates been weighing in on this game at all?

[Mina]

^uh, I mean, before MS/shos saying Quilford is scum.

[Mina]

You mean like how I've actually

have

three pretty consistent strong town reads all game, while you've pretty much gone and called anyone you've townread scum at some point or other because your reads are completely inconsistent?

[Mina]

I waffle on you whenever you say something that sounds genuine only because there's so much about your play and your reads that looks scummy as fuck.

[Mina]

(Um, but on an unrelated note, I hope you had a nice birthday! And on another unrelated note, I wish I was allowed to edit my posts, because the word repetition drives me crazy.)

I opened Marketplace Mafia III, and looking for Quilford's posts in the uʍop ǝpısdn hydra ISO (409 posts, the vast majority of which are N one-liners) is like finding a needle in a haystack. But luckily, there's a period of time where N is V/LA and Quilford is locked out of the hydra.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

Conveniently, he spends most of his time tunneling BBmolla. I probably underestimated Quil's ability to fake a tunnel as scum (he talks about revelatory moments as well). But he still doesn't do genuine scumhunting. His BBmolla case is much shallower and less nuanced there, and I'd felt like his posts made him look so obviously scum during that exchange I couldn't get away with not bussing him.

[Mina]

Fucking [] tags in urls ruining ISO links. Start reading from here for the Quilford vs. Molla battle. Also an example of me-scum (I think I looked pretty town since I could genuinely hunt for the other team, except I went for a lot of low-hanging fruit and never gave a big-picture view of the game) and Molla-town.

Preview edit: linked it AGAIN for the people who couldn't open it!

[Mina]

What do you think was your best scumgame on this site, Quilford?

(I just realized I kind of want to townread Quilford for being adorable.)

p-edit: I haven't really been able to follow your reasoning for your reads at all this game, but I'll get back to you when I'm not working.

[Mina]

Also, a belated *hug* for BPC. If you're still reading this, are you able to give like 1-2 lines explaining each of your reads? But I don't want to put more pressure on you.

[Mina]

Now that's an emoticon full of conviction and sincerity, pregnant with meaning and truly expressing your belief that...uh...what, exactly? (That's not a particularly controversial statement, and one I've unfortunately made like thirty times this game.)

[Mina]

Mina, how much would you say you Meta dive out of "paranoia" as scum?

I don't remember ever doing it. But the point is for other people to read that and see what I'm seeing, not just to quell my paranoia.

[Mina]

...I'm seeing exactly what I said I'm seeing in this post?

...The Alchemist wagon (as opposed to individual players' reactions to Alch) doesn't tell me much more than what I said in this post?

[Mina]

Can you read Quilford's ISO in the game I linked in Post 1 and tell me if you agree, ETL?

[Mina]

To be fair, I don't explicitly state the message of the first post. It should be pretty obvious, though--Quilford is playing

nothing

like there.

[Mina]

Mina, how much would you say you Meta dive out of "paranoia" as scum?

I don't remember ever doing it. But the point is for other people to read that and see what I'm seeing, not just to quell my paranoia.

To clarify, meta diving in general I rarely do as scum, because I'm lazy, but I must have done it once or twice for town points (can't remember specific games), or at least linked to games. Meta diving out of "paranoia" in particular I don't think I've done.

[Mina]

@ETL: it's not posting style. It's that his case on BBmolla in that game was GARBAGE, and his reasons for suspecting him were very superficial and scripted and rigid. And he just did this bizarre tunnel that seemed insincere. Here he has posts that look like actual scumhunting.

[Mina]

Quilford was scum in that game. That's my point: he's readable, not very good as scum, and is known for being flaky when he draws it.

[Mina]

(I linked to that game as an example of what I meant.)

[Mina]

But seriously, I don't want to be mean, but it seems like you're not reading my posts or paying attention at ALL, ETL. Like, for example, how did you manage to miss that Quilford was scum there, while supposedly reading his ISO? I pretty much

said

he was scum when linking to that game (and have mentioned I was scum with him in Marketplace before). Are you distracted right now or something? Your questions seem to have little connection with what I'm saying.

[Mina]

I trust patrick to be able to read you and he seems to think you're town. And I didn't see it.

But you seem to have been townreading me since early Day 1. Never mind that gut =/= Patrick's read.

And they said nothing on D1?

(Also, Molla, given you were in Marketplace, do you agree with my assessment of Quilford's meta?)

(Holy shit, a lot of ninjas. Post, submit, dammit.)

[Mina]

My point is you thought I was town back when Patrick had me as a second-tier suspect, though. (And also, gut =/= Patrick, and you'd called it gut.)

[Mina]

Turns out I don't have work this evening ^_^! Just commenting that I ISO'd Quilford on my phone in both the Equinox game and here. He, like, posts cases there and stuff. He's a bit robotic. Better than in Marketplace because they're at least standard "scumhunting" posts.

But then I ISO'd him here out of paranoia. Okay, he's town.

Never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever lynch him. Suspecting him = you are bad at Mafia (even if you're Regfan!)

Molla, do your teammates suspect him for a reason beyond his behaviour surrounding the hammer?

(My read on ETL is very, very similar to Patrick's. And ETL, I'd prefer a scum flip to a "there are fewer suspects" flip.)

[Mina]

Why does a wagon on a townie stalling mean both scum are on it, though? Wouldn't scum not want to make waves if they're off the wagon, too? (Well, I guess scum could have pushed a random townie to look busy.)

[Mina]

Also, why does everyone in the game have teammates who suspect Quilford? Am I just not drinking the Kool-Aid? Does NO ONE find it odd that this is nothing like his scum play has ever been? Am I the one who's crazy?

(Patrick, that's your way of preparing for when you and Quilford endgame me, isn't it? )

[Mina]

My team wants me to ask for:
-Most recent meta of JF replacing into games both as town and as scum.
-Meta of ETL being scumread as town in a small game.

[Mina]

this is nothing like his scum play has

ever been

?

I asked you this and you didn't answer. So I'm guessing the other game is one of many that match that tone?

I mean, I don't think his scum play is a monolith. The other game he linked was very different in style from Marketplace (he doesn't rabidly tunnel on anyone). I think he had some superficially town posts in ADwD as Pandora before he flaked from the hydra. But in general, he's a very easy to read player. (This is something Faraday told me as well, and I assume he has more experience with him.) I think there are enough instances in this game that I don't think he could fake.

[Mina]

(I mean, his scum games aren't all identical, but none of them he's looked close to as town as he does here.)

[Mina]

Didn't realize he was at l-1

But I don't expect thT to be believed

Shrug

This bugged me at the time--why did you think you wouldn't be believed, given everyone was townreading you?

I'd be interested in hearing people's thoughts on ETL right now.

[Mina]

Not sure this changes anything in the slightest, but I knew I wasn't the hammer vote, by the way. It was a "fuck it, the game is stalling, Alch's lynch is inevitable because everyone wants to vote him, people are impatient for this to end, and none of the lurkers will post anything today so I might as well at least put him back at L-1" vote.

[Mina]

And since BPC isn't here anymore, I'll say the major flaw in your catch earlier (which turns it from "holy shit, smoking gun, let's lynch him!" to "yeah, that's kind of scummy") is that he only said he was okay with the hammer AFTER it happened. He could have thought that from your PoV, you should have still wanted to wait for him. It's still kind of dissonant and a shallow, hypocritical reason to suspect you (well, did he suspect you or was it just a question--who knows with what BPC posted today?). I guess we'll never know if that was his actual reasoning, though.

p-edit: because Alchemist was at L-1 for days and days, so I HAD been wavering on hammering for ages. He'd only been at L-2 for like ten minutes.

[Mina]

Oh, and that was directed to BPC, since I literally hadn't hammered earlier just because he'd claimed to want to catch up.

[Mina]

This is your irrelevant semantics discussion of the day!

[Mina]

zoraster: could we have a deadline extension because of the replacement?

[Mina]

Being mean is not a scumtell, ETL.

[Mina]

How is that insulting? I don't think his interactions with you make him scum at all (they'd be null for most players and are probably a mild towntell for him). And I think that's the calmest, least drama-fomenting way I can put it when I'm pretty sure Quilford HAS to be town for meta reasons, and right now I think I'll die and then the game will end with a Quilford mislynch despite the fact I'm yelling myself blue in the face about him.

[Mina]

Great, continue being an utterly useless player who apparently cannot do the #1 most basic thing required of you to do in Mafia and actually read and comprehend people's posts

This is completely unproductive.

[Mina]

I mean, don't you think ETL is town, Quilford? Why have you been arguing with her for two pages, anyway?