Newbie 1920: North America [Endgame]

[Persivul]

Here.

[Persivul]

VOTE: persivul. Only scum show up that fast.

There's two scum. That makes me and you the scum team.

[Persivul]

So this is my first non-IC newbie game. Welcome everyone, and skellen especially from our history. I had a custom of posing some introductory questions to get the game started:

1. What is your experience at Mafia

A lot.

2. How do you play as town

Depends on my mood and my role.

3. How do you play as scum

As close to my town game as possible.

4. What do you think gives away a player as scum or town

Are they or aren't they trying to figure out the game?

[Persivul]

Just noticed most of you have done an RVS vote and I feel like I probably should too.

VOTE: Sekaedy

VOTE: TheASC

[Persivul]

Sorry, didn't realize it had been that long. I'll catch up tomorrow.

[Persivul]

Yeah I'm not seeing a scum agenda here from ASC other than lamist-y posting, not unusual from newbie. Better hope he's scum, or that the 2 awol players aren't.

first in-game town read awarded.

Why, for that NSS post?

[Persivul]

I don't mind the conversation about my RVS post; it's better than having no conversation at all. However, I'm a little suspicious of just how quickly the wagon built up with Persivul and chennisden's back to back votes in #29 and #30, especially considering their lack of explanation for a non-RVS vote.

Personally I voted just to get things moving.

[Persivul]

People I won't vote rn: Skellen, TheASC
People I will vote: teacher, GrandWazoo

VOTE: teacher

[Persivul]

So vote teacher with me.

[Persivul]

VOTE: Sekaedy

[Persivul]

But what about Persi is town? His lurk/prod especially from an SE,

I had time when I signed up, but it took longer for me to get in than I expected, and now I'm overgamed.

Regarding you:
20 - This felt forced, hated the make a joke bit
39 - Read with no explanation and no (so I thought) follow-up
45 - Why give a town read for a NSS observation? Also don't like the

in-game town read

comment, indicates you have other town reads you haven't expressed, and it's way too early to have town reads at all.

When I went to make that case, I found:
62 - Explained the bit about ASC

So, I'm not as concerned about you as I was - but still concerned.

[Persivul]

Idk what NSS is, can you explain? I’ll explain why I think Persivul’s town afterwards

No

surprise

Sherlock, at least by my google of it.[/quote]
No Shit Sherlock. You misunderstand my point. I'm saying that Wazoo's post was so

No Shit Sherlock

that you shouldn't be awarding town points for it. At that stage of the game his post required no insight at all.

[Persivul]

Yeah I'm not seeing a scum agenda here from ASC other than lamist-y posting, not unusual from newbie. Better hope he's scum, or that the 2 awol players aren't.

first in-game town read awarded.

This looks like a town read based on a single post.

Where did you show this to be wrong?

[Persivul]

The one specific point you’ve made was shown to be wrong.

[Persivul]

Wazoo and teacher, are you guys fine with a pressure vote on persivul?

Er, it doesn't really work if you announce that it's a pressure vote in advance.

Also, I did some meta on teacher and saw that yes, he likes to toss out easy RVS town reads.
UNVOTE:

[Persivul]

That wasn’t fast. I have gathered information for this day, I don’t know how it could progress further.

I have estabilished my town block already.

A lynch on you is the safest one and let me tell you why:

1. If you are scum, we lynch scum (200iq plays)
2. If you are town, we get rid of you now so that you won’t be an easy mislynch in a 3v2 situation. I’ve noticed you tend to be more confident in your reads late-game, but for today, we have to get rid of you for the reasons I mentioned. I’ve seen this post in a game of mine which I find interesting

“Town has to get rid of the scummiest townies and scum have to get rid of the towniest townies”

. That no lynch followed by a vote is suspicious though, so at least we aren’t lynching you for nothing. Plus, how convenient you come here rn as I’m pushing you, were you active lurking?

There's a lot of truth to that quote. Personally though, I also get concerned about the person trying to assert a leadership role (as by establishing town blocs) D1. Town leaders and town blocs are good when they occur organically. Otherwise, a scum who successfully makes himself town leader is the most dangerous scum of all. I know, I've done it.

VOTE: Scum reading

[Persivul]

A lynch on me would actually give zero information.

Why is that?

Last time I heard that argument, it was from scum. Just sayin'...

[Persivul]

I don’t like you townreading people based on wording, I didn’t even give that post too much attention since it was rvs. You town read people based on single posts, just like you did with wazoo. Your reads smell funny,

you’re getting too defensive

, which is what I wanted.

What would you make of your own reaction to a wagon? You seem pretty defensive...

[Persivul]

I could've easily parked my vote on ASC and getting a lynch on her, but I town read her.

Are you saying you're good at convincing people to vote with you?

[Persivul]

If I flip town, who would the next accusation be thrown on to?
If I flip scum, who would the next accusation be thrown on to?

That's scummy af. I saw it at another site, so I tried it in my first scum game here. It didn't work.

[Persivul]

I requested a hammer on me, how's that reacting defensive lol.

If you're town, that's playing against wincon.

You're either admitting you're scum, or admitting that you're breaking one of the top two site rules.

[Persivul]

How's requesting a hammer on me playing against my wincon.

A townie's death is against his wincon, unless he feels his flip will provide significant information to town. Yet, you said that your flip wouldn't provide such information (and didn't explain why that is when I asked BTW).

If you're town and think your flip won't provide information, then advocating your own lynch is playing against wincon.

You've been here enough to see people voting themselves and requesting getting night-killed and lynch

Yep, and I've seen townies hammer themselves - and I've reported them for playing against wincon.

and you are saying this right now?

Yeah, I generally don't discuss it until someone has requested to be hammered.

Are you really that desperate to get my lynched? You're now using this meta level of wincon to get me lynched? lmao

I don't think you're playing against wincon, because I don't think you're town. I think you're scum saying

lynch me

for AtE.

[Persivul]

This argument is in your favour because I am aware of the rules and I can't quote the wincon.

Requesting a hammer is AtE

and not playing against your wincon, I still am leading a vote on scum and I haven't voted myself, so I'm not playing against my wincon. You are picking on a single post as well, but my overall posting was according to my wincon. Again, I gave town reads, I gathered information, it's town choice if they want to lynch me.

OK. As I said, I don't really think you're playing against wincon. I think you're scum.

I asked you to give me a logical reasoning on who the next person would get accused if I'm lynched and I flipped town/scum, so it seems you're the one who avoided my question, actually.

No, you don't answer a question by rephrasing it and asking the questioner to answer it for you. But let's go with that. Suppose you're right and we can't get information from your flip. What does that say about your play today? You're a hard null? You're equally townie and scummy?

Even you said and actually bolded me saying in my post "You're getting too defensive, which is what I wanted" and you said I was getting defensive. Getting defensive =/= playing against my wincon, you just refuted your own argument man. What else do you have against me? If I am town and I got defensive, then that means my hammer post was AtE.

Now yu're trying to switch my arguments that you're scum to the argument that you're playing against wincon, which again, I really don't hold.

You seem to think that when people get defensive from being pushed that's SCUMMY (note I didn't mention wincon). You got pushed and got defensive (and you didn't get higher than L-2). That's SCUMMY (again, has nothing to do with wincon) by your own criteria.

[Persivul]

If you had an issue with my post, you would've reported it in a pm to the mod, instead you use it to make me look more suspicious, Persivul, you're a special one.

I used it to pressure you. That's called scum hunting.

[Persivul]

Disagree - it’s the weekend which is low activity generally - making 2 of those days more like 1. This room is also inactive. We need a consensus target NOW to allow room for claims and response. (Though I’m still hoping for an extension when the mod response to my request).

So vote scum reading. All the cool SEs are doing it.

[Persivul]

@teacher
All the more reason to vote SR. Why aren't you voting SR?

^This

[Persivul]

Im willing to hammer him, but think

his continued presence helps town regardless of his alignment.

He is keeping the game active and forcing stances -- creating more alignment indicative information. There are other reasons as well, but I think he benefits town by being present in day 2.

WTF dude this is a micro. Without a scum lynch D3 is LYLO.

[Persivul]

VOTE: The ASC

[Persivul]

One vote isn't a wagon. If you mean that merely changing votes is scum indicative, then...check out this shit:

Spoiler:

If there’s a cop, they should be on chennis. He is suspicious as both scum and town, nobody will be able to get a read on him, unless we want to lynch him rn and cop can check someone else. His no-lynch vote followed up by a stack up vote within 9 posts is sus for me

VOTE: Chennisden

So this is my first non-IC newbie game. Welcome everyone, and skellen especially from our history. I had a custom of posing some introductory questions to get the game started:

1. What is your experience at Mafia
2. How do you play as town
3. How do you play as scum
4. What do you think gives away a player as scum or town

Sup I'm alive

1. I've have a decent amount of experience with One Night Ultimate Werewolf, Town of Salem and Mindnight. Not much with the actual game. I'm looking forward to learning though!
2/3. I'm not really sure yet. I usually try to pay attention to information and deduce stuff based on that but I am... inconsistent alol.
4. I don't think there are any consistent tells one way or the other. It's kind of like putting together a puzzle almost lol.

And also I feel it is necessary to position my vote on VOTE: Zeito.

Why is it necessary?


VOTE: Sekaedy

I like my PoE and this seems like a good slot to pressure, hop on at any time you like

I was planning to after Seka would say something, but I guess this works as well

VOTE: teacher

ASC, Persi, Zeito these are my town reads at the moment

Im with you on ASC. But what about Persi is town? His lurk/prod especially from an SE, plus 83 quoted above, are giving me a scum tingle. He seems to agree with the same Wazoo post I agreed with -- calling it NSS -- but then questions the town read based on it? Who wants to prevent town from recognizing town......

Idk what NSS is, can you explain? I’ll explain why I think Persivul’s town afterwards

No

surprise

Sherlock, at least by my google of it.

Although Persivul isn’t that active, his posts aren’t filled with chit chatting and stuff, he’s serious about the game and tries to scumhunt when able to. Besides, he took the vote off of you, although he could’ve built a wagon because of my case and his. He’s voted 3 persons for information and reactions, he’s not trying to hop on wagons, when ASC’s wagon built up, he switched his vote, that is townie, he could’ve made a whole case against you or anyone here and tunnel them.

At this point, I believe the scum-team is formed of 1 inactive player (Seka is the most sus for this slot) and then the other would be a somewhat active player. I got my information on teacher, so now I invite everyone to push a Seka wagon, maybe this time it works.

VOTE: Sekaedy

And now we play the waiting game, boring

Yeah, idk what happened, must’ve missed it. I don’t have the energy to have a debate on why your reads don’t benefit town, I’ll just leave you be.

VOTE: Wazoo

You’re still in rvs.

You’re right, it’s just that I feel like the day will be wasted if we lynch him lol

VOTE: chennisden

If I flip town, who would the next accusation be thrown on to?
If I flip scum, who would the next accusation be thrown on to?

That's scummy af. I saw it at another site, so I tried it in my first scum game here. It didn't work.

I'm not you though. You said you were reading mastina articles, didn't you read the gambit thing? It's perfectly reasonable.

VOTE: Persivul

[Persivul]

NSS. Since I'm the SECOND vote, that means there was ONE vote before I got on. That means that I didn't hop on to a wagon.

And don't joke with me. I don't like you.

[Persivul]

It takes two to tango

Just noticed most of you have done an RVS vote and I feel like I probably should too.

VOTE: Sekaedy

VOTE: TheASC

People I won't vote rn: Skellen, TheASC
People I will vote: teacher, GrandWazoo

VOTE: teacher

VOTE: Sekaedy

Did I say anything about moving votes?

[Persivul]

I would prefer a different lynch for today though.

Who?

[Persivul]

im like two pages in atm but the scum team is TheASC and GW

I can imagine this scum team as well. Post 289 never comes from town.

When you use the post tags you have to get the numbers only. When you include a space within the tags, it defaults to post 0.

[Persivul]

VOTE: WAZOO

[Persivul]

this is legit scummy af tho

How so?

You can argue that it's bad town play, but scummy is ridiculous. That's town at least 95% of the time.

[Persivul]

ok gl i expect to be dead by d2

If you're not, should we scum read you?

[Persivul]

I'm sorry, are you arguing that I should town read you for your hammer because awful hammers usually come from town?

Yes. Scum almost never make that vote.

Why don't you tell us why YOU made that play?

I had a scum read on him early.
You made a good case on him.
363 was a horrible post.

And remember, he hasn't flipped yet. If I were scum in his shoes, I'd make a claim hoping that a townie would make a pointless CC and help my partner.

[Persivul]

why didn't you ask for a claim?

Because I'm tired. Yes, since this is a newbie, I should have gone by the book and given intent. My brain just didn't go through all the motions.

[Persivul]

we should have just lynched through the doc claim tbh

I considered that too, but it wouldn't have worked.

[Persivul]

if I knew we were going to get a lolhammer anyway i would have pushed that

Which is it...scum hammer, or lolhammer? There's a difference.

[Persivul]

also I think your hammer actually comes from scum a lot more often than you're presenting. It might come from town more often than not, but i think it comes from scum a lot more than 5%

Are you an alt? If not...talk when you have more experience.

What's the scum!pers motivation for the hammer? I hadn't been under pressure the entire phase. There was no competing wagon, so I wasn't trying to save a buddy.

[Persivul]

Eh, I was in the process of giving GW the road map to showing himself as town,

Er...why?

[Persivul]

VT. To you, Persivul.

VT.

And again, think motivations.

[Persivul]

Mislynching gives us 3 town 2 scum which is MyLo.

No, that's lylo. 4:2 is mylo.

[Persivul]

Persivul, do not claim.

Claims are a formality at this point. We have a flipped JK and a claimed doc.

If there is another town PR, they should claim. Then we lynch the doc.

Otherwise, everyone's going to claim VT.

[Persivul]

Scum literally never kills TheASC if he is the real doctor at least until we lynch the roleblocker that must exist if he is a true doctor.

That's ridiculous. With the other town PR dead and the doc claim not CC'd,

the doc becomes conftown

. It is certainly in scum's best interest to kill it.

[Persivul]

There’s no reason to kill the doc claim with a roleblocker in game. Him staying alive will raise suspicion on him, maf are aware of that, which is why I think maf has big boi brains

Wrong. Without a CC, and with the JK flip, the doc claim is conftown.

[Persivul]

i get maybe one of the new players saying this shit but no it doesn't and you're experienced enough to know this, wtf.

Column c, row 2. JK + VT against 2 goons

You're right. I missed that one. This is my first time with the new newbie system and frankly I'm making a mess of it.

[Persivul]

Pers, who would you lynch today?

Maybe you. I need to read the scum game you played under this alt. The only reason I backed off of you D1 was that I found a scum game in which you were pretty bad - really obviously different from this game. If your scum game has improved, that changes things.

[Persivul]

Teacher likely got killed for a reason. His last reads list:

Zeito is my only lock town, with Persi not far behind. Funny how much things have changed since the game got active:
Teacher
Zeito
Persivul
URAP
Skellen

Scumreading
Chennis

Wazoo
ASC*daypass

[Persivul]

Pers, who would you lynch today?

And actually I won't be terribly opposed to my own lynch. I'm a good player who's having a bad game. It happens. I probably shouldn't make it to lylo.

[Persivul]

My flu-addled brain isn't working too well, so let's see if I understand the setup at this point.

We have a flipped JK and a claimed doctor. That means either:

- We're in A2 and ASC is legit.
- We're in B2, but tracker hasn't CC'd ASC for some reason.
- We're in C2 - ASC is scum who made a lucky PR claim.

Is that accurate?

If so, I don't like the shade being thrown at ASC. Yes, conftown was too strong, but still...it's a pretty good claim.

[Persivul]

So if mafia have two goons, there's a 2/3 chance that a doctor fakeclaim wouldn't get CC'd.

[Persivul]

So if mafia have two goons, there's a 2/3 chance that a doctor fakeclaim wouldn't get CC'd.

And, she was at L-1.

[Persivul]

So if mafia have two goons, there's a 2/3 chance that a doctor fakeclaim wouldn't get CC'd.

Yes, a 33% shot at getting away with a doc fake claim as scum

Yes, I'm seeing that the fake claim scenario isn't far-fetched at all.

I also found this interesting, considering the crap I've taken for hammering before a claim:

VOTE: ASC

I'm fine with either lynch in between the two, now it's Lynch minus one,

feel free to hammer

Further along that line, I don't like that you moved off the wagon at L-2, then when it went back to L-2 you jumped back on to make it L-1. That's a move I sometimes use as scum, since a lot of people are hesitant to make an L-1 vote.

[Persivul]

I usually have at least a scum sorted by day two, I’m just clueless this game. Re-reading ISO’s and there aren’t scum tells.

Persivul’s freaking hard to read, I don’t want to risk a mislynch on him given that if he’s a townie, town will benefit a lot.

I think VCA will be my scum hunting tool after wazoo’s flip, but I probably won’t live to give my reads

VOTE: Persivul

What changed?

When I saw the vote at first I assumed it was for the hammer. Re-reading, I see that you twice supported hammers without claims, and you were consistent in that you didn't join the chorus howling for my head.

So, why the vote on me to start the day?

[Persivul]

Scum team : urap and chennisden.

I’ll fight both of you guys at the same time, come at me

Honestly I kinda like scum reading in that battle.

[Persivul]

Damn it

There are different color skins. Keep alts in different windows using different skins. Much harder to slip up that way.

[Persivul]

By skins you mean those board style things like mafSilver ?

I guess. I have like a tan background. I don't do alts, but once I did a hydra and used black or something for it to avoid slips.

[Persivul]

chenn he's just scum. it's clear as day.

he was getting heat when I came in, and I gave him a lifeline.[1]

He just had a successful scum game, and I'm sure he felt his partner wasn't pulling their weight d1, and so

he jumped on the bus when I pushed ASC with the fake claim plan [2]

.

Your first post was 308. Conveniently, there was a VC just before that:

VC 1.04

votes

[3] TheASC

:

teacher 249, Persivul 268, scum reading 285

[1] scum reading

:

GrandWazoo 184

[1] Zeito

:

Sekaedy 41

[1] chennisden

:

Zeito 297

[3] Not Voting

:

Skellen 175, TheASC 198, chennisden 199

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch

The Day 1 deadline is in

: (expired on 2019-03-13 17:37:59)

Mod Notes

:

[1] He had one vote when you came in. So, no, you didn't give him a lifeline.

[2] He was already voting ASC, so no, he didn't jump on the bus when you pushed ASC.

[Persivul]

but look at how it's like a stream of consciousness that ducks and weaves and finds its way back to the conclusion he's looking for. I'm having trouble to put it to words, but i think you all can find the connection between his style in his scum game and here

and it's simply not a style that comes from a town mindset.

I played a game where he was town and stream of consciousness type posts were pretty common for him:
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=78950

[Persivul]

@teacher
All the more reason to vote SR. Why aren't you voting SR?

Im willing to hammer him, but think his continued presence helps town regardless of his alignment. He is keeping the game active and forcing stances -- creating more alignment indicative information. There are other reasons as well, but I think he benefits town by being present in day 2.

I swear if this game ever lynches scum reading I will go on a long, cathartic (for me) rant in post game

he's so obviously town, he might as well post in green text

I don't read this as merely based on meta.

[Persivul]

The SR read is partially meta. This game and his scum game are night and day. Also, his frustration levels all the way through the second half of this game tracked to me as super genuine. You can see where your posts really enraged him, and other times where he's still frustrated, but less so. I buy it. Third, in a game with this level of activity, trying to keep the game moving is a town-tell. It really is, and it is for obvious reasons. seriously, this never, ever, ever flips scum

[Persivul]

Eh, I was in the process of giving GW the road map to showing himself as town,

Er...why?

what do you mean why?

Because he expressed a desire to work with me, which is not something I turn away from often, regardless of my read.

Sure, if a scum read wants to talk to me, I will. That's a far cry from giving them a road map to townieness. There's no town motivation to give a scum read the means to dodge suspicion. That makes no sense.

Because when my reads are wrong, working through the game with someone is a great way to figure out that they're wrong

Again, that doesn't entail giving a scum read a road map to townieness.

Because if he is scum, giving him what appears to be a lifeline is a great way to con scum into continuing to spew

Meh, that's slightly legit.

Because he's not some scum-god, and I'm not worried about him talking his way out of a lynch

If you give him "the road map to showing himself as town," then yes, he's going to talk his way out of the lynch.

[Persivul]

I think my worlds are actually

{ASC, Chenn} and {Pers, Chenn}

VOTE: chenn

@scum reading: this makes urap/chenn pretty hard to believe.

[Persivul]

swap out SR for chenn in my poe beceause chenn was always a poe read anyway, he's mislynch bait always as town, and SR's push on him basically spews him town.

VOTE: SR

also acceptable lynch today is ASC because he's scum

So you think scum reading was busing his partner D1? Cause he sure looked willing for an ASC lynch before the claim.

[Persivul]

Alright, I’m getting kind of bored here, can we send chennisden to the dead pt already? Begoneeeeee scuuum

No. You need to reassess urap/chenn because they don't look like a team together. urap starts by putting a vote on me, hoping the quickhammer would generate a fast wagon. When that didn't take off, he moved to chenn, thinking that's the next easiest mislynch.

[Persivul]

mod can we have a vc?

[Persivul]

i am super happy with the wagons today being scum reading and myself

With my push back on scum reading, I would think that town!urap would have developed some doubt. Your confidence is part of what's troubling me.

[Persivul]

agreed

Really?

What was wrong about my rebuttal of his main points in that post?

[Persivul]

@teacher
All the more reason to vote SR. Why aren't you voting SR?

Im willing to hammer him, but think his continued presence helps town regardless of his alignment. He is keeping the game active and forcing stances -- creating more alignment indicative information. There are other reasons as well, but I think he benefits town by being present in day 2.

I swear if this game ever lynches scum reading I will go on a long, cathartic (for me) rant in post game

he's so obviously town, he might as well post in green text

I don't read this as merely based on meta.

I think 257 and 260 are more interesting - the guys who scumread SR are dead

What do you think of my actual point - that urap hasn't adequately explained his change on scum reading?

And why do I feel like your scum partner fed that post to you?

[Persivul]

Pers, you just said that chennis - urap team doesn’t make sense. Are you suggesting chennis is scum with someone else? Why not urap?

This page has me second-guessing that position.

urap/chenn either aren't scum together, or did some good distancing. I need to check that. We also need the inactives to post more.

I'd vote urap before chenn.

[Persivul]

do it then, boyo,

Fuck you.

[Persivul]

Just vote chennis and you’ll see

It's a possibility. I just red zeito and skel ISOs and they both were getting scum vibes from him as well. Where there's enough smoke...

If chenn flips red, who's his partner?

[Persivul]

I didn't want to even hint at it until Branching Mafia was finished, but it seriously undermined my read on you SR

You're still probably town, but you aren't lock!town since you were dramatically less awkward than in your newbie game, and that was a part of my read on you.

viewtopic.php?f=90&t=79019

OK, I looked at that. Comparing that setup to this is so apples to oranges it's meaningless.

[Persivul]

@urap: If you want my thoughts, don't misrep me.

[Persivul]

@urap: If you want my thoughts, don't misrep me.

What if I want your vote?

Make a solid case.

[Persivul]

Are you calling my case trash? I’ll quote it again and maybe you’ll see what I see

No, it's not trash. I think I've made a solid case on him too. I'm chilling and studying other people while waiting for input from zeito and skell.

[Persivul]

Also, the fact that Persivul isn’t as aggressive as he usually is with his votes, it makes me re-think his alignment..

Two factors:

Yesterday
Mod's on VLA. Need a VC.

[Persivul]

i push him for his unreal confidence

Personally I find your confidence to be stronger than his. That's part of my problem with you.

Unfortunately, SR said above he doesn't like being pushed around, and neither do I. So, I know that to some extent I'm biased against you for your playstyle.

[Persivul]

I'm showing a difference between his town game and his scum game.

I've quoted posts of yours where you seemed to town read him for other reasons than meta, i.e. his play in this actual game at hand. Hell, you said he should be posting in green. I don't buy that that was all based on meta. That smells like bullshit. Again, I don't think you've adequately explained your change in read on him.

[Persivul]

if you want me to respond to something else directly, pers, please requote it because i don't remember the post you're talking about

You managed to respond to the posts just before and after these. I'll add some emphasis.

@teacher
All the more reason to vote SR. Why aren't you voting SR?

Im willing to hammer him, but think his continued presence helps town regardless of his alignment. He is keeping the game active and forcing stances -- creating more alignment indicative information. There are other reasons as well, but I think he benefits town by being present in day 2.

I swear if this game ever lynches scum reading I will go on a long, cathartic (for me) rant in post game

he's so obviously town, he might as well post in green text

I don't read this as merely based on meta.

The SR read is partially meta. This game and his scum game are night and day.

Also, his frustration levels all the way through the second half of this game tracked to me as super genuine. You can see where your posts really enraged him, and other times where he's still frustrated, but less so. I buy it. Third, in a game with this level of activity, trying to keep the game moving is a town-tell. It really is, and it is for obvious reasons.

seriously, this never, ever, ever flips scum

[Persivul]

VOTE: asc

Fuck you beat me to it.

VOTE: TheASC

[Persivul]

My vote got there in a couple hours of reading ISOs and rereading most of D1, especially the buildup of the ASC wagon and her claim.

[Persivul]

who is the partner, persivul?

Zeito's the first place I'd look.

[Persivul]

The near lynch on her looks like a good organic town wagon. If ASC flips red, that clears urap and scum reading to me. skellen (and urap again) also get cleared from this wagon. Chennis has been her main scum read, doubt he's her partner. That leaves zeito. Plus, in her reads list, she put zeito right in the middle, which is where newbscum would put their partner.

The urap/scum reading 1v1 didn't get anywhere as far as wagons. That's telling me we have indecisive scum who were afraid to pick a side too early.

[Persivul]

Zeito's the first place I'd look.

How about you?

[Persivul]

hmmm zeito is obv!town tho

No, he's not.

[Persivul]

Persivul's read is actually a good one.

Actually got it from you. Some time ago you said wazoo > ASC, and if necessary > zeito.

[Persivul]

scum reading is the partner

other worlds include {scum reading + you) and {chenn + you} but these are orders of magnitude less likely

skellen and zeito are never scum in any world

Just when I'm getting comfortable with you, you go and scum things up again. Point being that you said the same thing about scum reading, and have since backed off it.

[Persivul]

IF we kill scum today

What's this "we" shit?

[Persivul]

Yeah I'd actually prefer to wait and see. Please don't hammer, SR.

[Persivul]

It's interesting that:

- The wagon is on ASC
- When asked, I was the one who implicated Zeito as partner

Yet, Zeito comes in and basically gets into a 1v1 with SR.

[Persivul]

Can I hammer now and we vote Zeito tomorrow?

As far as I'm concerned, yes, you can hammer now. Zeito had his chance.

Regarding voting Zeito tomorrow - assuming ASC flips red, he's where I'm looking first, but there's still analysis to be done.

[Persivul]

Anyway, I never said I was doctor, just that I was claiming doctor. There's a subtle difference.

That's part of why I came back to you.

[Persivul]

Holy fuck we just lynched ASC

What's this "we"?

[Persivul]

Spoiler:

Regarding scum reading (the player):
First off I think there's a line between wagon hopping and changing your reads, one is scummy and one is towny, but I'm leaning the latter on SR because it feels like they did it knowing they could be sr'd for it #165 (and then later shifts onto Persivul).

It’s not shady, I’m just a really indecisive person and I like to be as transparent as possible. I advocated for you not getting lynched in my first posts as well, I still stand by it, but regardless of the flip, I think this is the most beneficial lynch at the moment. Sorry, chennis

I think being indecisive is fair. I think we disagree on how far chennis would be helpful as an info-lynch if they flip town, though.

Also, I saw they asked to be hammered at some point. I do not know how to read defeatism.

However, scum reading has been putting townreads on players fairly unnecessarily, #182 highlights my thoughts on this, I would like you to provide some reasoning with these if possible, even just 'gutread'.

Regarding chennis:

It’s not shady, I’m just a really indecisive person and I like to be as transparent as possible. I advocated for you not getting lynched in my first posts as well, I still stand by it, but regardless of the flip, I think this is the most beneficial lynch at the moment. Sorry, chennis

VOTE: scum reading

Advocating policy is something scum does.

Finding and lynching scum is something town does.

Like I said before, I had originally voted teacher after they voted chennis because it felt like chennis was an easy push. However, I'm starting to scumread chennis more and more.
#165
"Scumreading seems like he wants to prevent my mislynch, but then he switches to voting me very fast. / Shady shady" You do this immediately after, townreading scum reading in #163 without much reasoning to do so, and then voting him after one post. Was your original townread just that frail?
You did give reasoning, however - "Advocating policy is something scum does." But I do feel he has a point, chennis would be an easy lynch in the later stages of the game. It comes off more to me as if he was just thinking it through more.
I'm inclined to vote chennisden, I think. I'll review at the bottom of my post.

Regarding GW:

@GW:
To begin with I usually have troubles with reading erratic players like SR. What indicates town in his case is his effort as he is aggressively lashing out in any directions to get a grip on other players. Although it bothers me that he tried twice to after the guy who hasn't even been in the thread for 2-3 days and is now finally getting replaced. In case of his interaction with teacher for me the most important post #152 is where he explains his motivation. I can sympathize with that attitude, because in my first game with teacher I had the very same mindset with instantly jumping at teacher at the first opening to get a better impression of his personality, even although definitely not that aggressive as SR does. Also I am doubting if scum!SR would have been that bold to provoke such a 1v1 with a player like teacher on Day 1 considering the attention it caused.

It's that very erratic style of play that's striking me as anti-town. Wagon-hopping betrays a lack of conviction, at best. Directing investigative roles 77 out of the gate. "Pushing" a player that isn't here, as you said. Saying the chennisden wagon is would be a waste of time 158 then doing an instant 180 and voting them 162. Declaring "pressure vote" on Persival without actually voting. Voting me 149 for still being in RVS after I'd explicitly stated it was now a real vote 108. As for the 1v1 with teacher, I see both sides making a big deal over trivial matters. No problem with this in principle, since it often gives the other players insights into the two players' alignments. But in this case I didn't come away with any better idea on how to sort them. I don't know if his push on teacher was "bold" or just distracting.

Chennisden has redeemed himself somewhat so

VOTE: SR

Sorry if you've already responded to this, I'm reading through and typing these out as I go. How has chennisden redeemed themself?

My problem isn't with your activity, SR, but in the nature thereof. Bandwagon-hopping and "swinging at random" IS distracting, hence anti-town. As is your push on teacher, based on a single post (which was itself about the ASCwagon over a single post) It would be like me jumping on teacher over the RVS opening-tip analogy. Trivial points like this don't merit pushes unless you show they're part of a larger scum agenda.

As Persivul says, orchestrating wagons for "pressure" is futile. If you think someone's scum, just vote them and say why. Now nobody will feel pressured by your vote because the target knows it's not a serious wagon and you'll be voting someone else in a page or two.

GW has continually cited SRs posts as distracting, but it seems they weren't that distracting (since you obtained a scumread off of them). I'm assuming I'm being pedantic and you meant more like "they meant to be distracting" but I have to agree that there wasn't much to distract from - scum doesn't tend to distract town with themself, at least not from the games I've played.
I do feel GW is justified in reading SRs votes as wagon hopping, he does change his reads a little quickly, and they seem a little unstable. He has mentioned his votes are like this however (whether you trust self pmeta like that or not) and like I said before, he has recognised that wagon-hopping is scummy yet seems to continue to do so to push for reads.

Regarding Persivul

I think he's made some strong points and shows effort to scumhunt, although many of them do seem to be metas. I'm fairly unsure of this slot, but I don't think it's the lynch for today.

A lynch on me would actually give zero information.

Why is that?

Last time I heard that argument, it was from scum. Just sayin'...

Meta reads like this make it seem like you have reasoning to be scumreading something but without making you show us that reasoning. In this particular case, I do agree it feels a little scummy to argue that, but I would like you to show us more of what you're thinking, basically.


I'm sure there's a limit to the length of a post that y'all can take and it's 4am so I'm going to continue looking at this tomorrow. I will quickly summarise where I'll put my vote for now though, and where I would be willing to shift it to.

VOTE: chennisden

See "regarding chennisden" above. A lynch on TheASC would be fine too, but I have a stronger scumread on chennis right now, as well as the belief that if he were to flip town he would give more info than town!asc lynch.
I would also be happy with a lynch on GrandWazoo (see above).

I would prefer not to lynch Sekaedy, Skellen, teacher, or Persivul today. To me Skellen is bleeding town right now, I've commented on Persivul above, Sekaedy is inactive, and I no longer have a strong scumread on teacher.

As for a lynch on SR... possibly. I also wrote some thoughts about him above, and although it may look like I'm defending them, I mostly just want to distinguish between being indecisive and wagon-hopping. Whether or not I would feel comfortable voting SR I'm not completely sure about, so maybe they would be my fourth option to lynch today. Like I said, I'll post more tomorrow and hopefully we can reach a decent lynch.[/quote]

Assuming ASC flips red, you

MUST

lynch Zeito tomorrow for this vote and post. No ifs, ands or buts.

[Persivul]

I would’ve killed Urap personally if i were you. Your nk helped my poe a lot, I was starting to suspect teacher at the end of day one

It would help if you told them what exactly was the scumtell inside that spoiler. I write some REALLY long posts.

Sure - attempt to start a new wagon when ASC got to L-2, but a weak scum read on her as well to cover your ass in case the lynch did go through:

See "regarding chennisden" above. A lynch on TheASC would be fine too, but I have a stronger scumread on chennis right now, as well as the belief that if he were to flip town he would give more info than town!asc lynch.

But I can push it myself, right? Because if scum isn't you, there's no reason I'd die tonight.

[Persivul]

What I do know is that you're way scummier than Persivul, that's for sure. So go ahead and get into a 1v1 with him.

@Persivul yo, game's starting, you have to be here

I'm here and watching. Nothing's been said to change my mind so far. I think zeito's scum who's in a really bad position and doing what he can.

[Persivul]

Why aren't you voting then?

There's a couple ISOs I want to read.

[Persivul]

VOTE: scum reading

Happy now?

[Persivul]

Just chill out dipshit. People haven't even posted yet.

[Persivul]

Are you like 14 years old? Serious question.

[Persivul]

@ skell & chenn - in case it's not obvious my vote on scum reading is just because he's being a nagging pain in the ass.

[Persivul]

Percy (can I call you that? or will you policy me) please tell me that isn’t your sole reason for lynching him.

Yes, I'm just voting him because he's being a pain in the ass. I town read him. That read is based largely on meta, and also on votes he's made on ASC.

UNVOTE:

I'm like 90% sure on you as scum, but TBH I haven't looked at chenn much. I'm mostly town on skell, but there's a couple things about him that don't thrill me.

SR seems to forget that yesterday, while he and urap were going at it, I also didn't vote - and in the end we all ended up together on a scum lynch.

[Persivul]

You don't vote people because they're being a pain in the ass.

I do. Not to the point of game throwing, but...yeah, I'll vote someone just because I don't like them.

What did you even want to accomplish with that vote?

Best case was to shut you up until the other two come in. Didn't think that would happen. Secondary goal was just to piss you off.

People don't have to play to your timetable.

Get over yourself.

[Persivul]

when I tell you to vote him

This is the problem.

When you TELL ME to do something, I'm inclined to do the opposite just because I don't like being told what to do.

[Persivul]

See, this is the fundamental difference here...

Maybe we like to think first, vote later?

2. An actual chance to pmeta myself I cant say how this will change on a chatroom, but

I play aggressively

, without being scared to joke around here and there.
3. In my better games, I act similarly to how I would in #2. In worse games, like when I play as solo scum,

I'm too nervous to replicate the level of activity I get in 2.

Scum by your own admission.

[Persivul]

VOTE: Zeito

[Persivul]

scum expecting town to follow his lynch order and stuff - seems like scum upset that his planned chen/urap lynch did not go through and buddy was lynched

scum getting mad - seems fake af

No, that's totally in character for town!SR. In my other game with him (previously linked) he was town and totally flaked out. He doesn't have the patience for week-long phases.

[Persivul]

A lot easier to play aggressively on chat-based mafia.

You're capable of playing aggressively in posting and tone. You've shown that since ASC was lynched and I named you as partner.

You're still not aggressive on votes, which would be expected from scum in this gamestate.

[Persivul]

Current notes/reads, roughly sorted from most to least town top to bottom:

scum reading: Seems to be consistent with her original post stating that her “reads will change a lot”, which explains the 10 votes on 6 different people. She took initiative pressuring chennisden in #77...

If SR is scum:

- ASC put him at the top of his reads list
- ASC used the wrong pronouns for him, despite having a PT with day talk

Those are advanced distancing techniques that I don't think ASC has yet.

[Persivul]

I'll be honest, I survived a lot longer than I thought I would. Also, SR I'm male. Didn't want to mention it earlier but I was very much aware of it (see me referring to you as female since my d1 reads post)

OK, scratch the point about pronouns.

[Persivul]

mind telling us your thought process on why teacher was a good kill? Just because of his post where he accused you?

PM me after the game and I'd be happy to.

Again, either scum reading is town, or ASC is very good at distancing, despite being very bad as scum otherwise.

[Persivul]

ASC's push on chenn looks real to me. I'll give posts if needed.

Lynch zeito today. I'm very confident that will end it, but if it doesn't, lynch SR tomorrow.

[Persivul]

Look at ASC's pushes/votes on Chen and tell me that's scum distancing.

Yes, Chen is wrong to be scum reading you on playstyle issues rather than motivations. But you OMGUSing doesn't help matters.

[Persivul]

This post is utter shit.

An utter shit post can be bad town or scum. So, saying a post is utter shit doesn't help solve the game. Explain why it's utter shit.

In this instance, I'm firmly on Zeito. I've mostly been defending you. Skellen's POE seems to be you and Zeito. So, scum!chenn would likely side with me on Zeito today, kill me tonight, then lynch you with Skellen tomorrow for the win.

[Persivul]

Aside from RVS, Chennisden is literally the only person ASC ever voted for.

[Persivul]

Persivul won’t hammer, Zeito won’t hammer. If any of them does, they are hammering their strongest town read => they’re scum

Dude, my town bloc rn is me, skell, chenn. While I do town read you, you're after those two.

[Persivul]

Maybe.

[Persivul]

Did you not see this?

ASC's push on chenn looks real to me. I'll give posts if needed.

Lynch zeito today. I'm very confident that will end it, but if it doesn't, lynch SR tomorrow.

[Persivul]

Not a single town that scum reads me will hammer me in this situation.

Not a single scum will hammer, unless they have a death wish.

Let’s see how long it takes for chennisden to realise his reads are fucked

Self-voting gambits are the dumbest, most infantile plays in the game.

[Persivul]

Chennis, dude, I’m at L-1 with Zeito and Persivul on me

Your vote isn’t on anyone, you have to vote.

Chenn is already voting you.

[Persivul]

Can you let me bait, please?

No. We have plenty of info. It's time for analysis. Stupid tricks aren't going to help.

[Persivul]

That's an L-1.

[Persivul]

Until he changes it in 15 minutes...

[Persivul]

Not sure what's up with mod, but it might be awhile before we find out for sure.

[Persivul]

I PM'd mod.

[Persivul]

I would have bet a hundred bucks the NK would be me or Skellen. This is fucked up, but really interesting.

[Persivul]

Persivul, wanna comment on my thought process at all?

No. You were my second choice as scum yesterday. Now you're my first, but I need to review Skellen.

[Persivul]

scum, you know the chenn and urap kills heavily implicate you, right?

[Persivul]

I read Skellen's ISO and there's no way I would vote that before SR. If Skellen's scum, hats off to her.

I'll wait for last words from both of you, but then I'm voting SR.

p-edit: my mind's made up, it's up to Skellen now.

[Persivul]

Your “implication” comes from the fact that I kill the people that say “scum reading is scum”

Oops.

[Persivul]

Skellen, if you're scum, gg.

VOTE: scum reading

[Persivul]

So, who won?

[Persivul]

Basically I wrote everything for nothing, should have just waited some more minutes.

So you're scum?

[Persivul]

<---- Scum

Well done.

[Persivul]

I was writing a post in which I basically said the nk didn’t even matter, I’d be the lynch regardless

If you had voted me, I would have been the lynch. Skell won this a long time ago. No one was scum reading her.

[Persivul]

I was writing a post in which I basically said the nk didn’t even matter, I’d be the lynch regardless

But yeah, if she killed me, chenn would have voted you. Only thing that would have hurt her would have been killing you.

[Persivul]

We didn't get a lot of VCs and stuff happens in between, but FWIW, I just checked the VCs and not a single vote on Skellen. That's impressive.

[Persivul]

Dude...

[Persivul]

Hey all -- Im swamped and have to admit I didnt stay on top of the game. This was well-played by Skellen and ASC. The true surprise of the game to me was the zeito lynch.

Suspicion came from wagons, then he just played horribly when pressured. Not to ride a high horse - this was a bad game for me too. But he really looked like defeated scum.

[Persivul]

Yeah, I'm surprised nobody acknowledged the fact that the near-universal tr made it to lylo

People rarely do. It's not something to be worried about when you're scum. Just play as town as you can.