Newbie 2031 - The Wild Hunt (End!)

[the worst]

It's good to be back in feryland. Though I feel less elven this time

[the worst]

secrets

assuming this is serious but banterous voting, I like Mundivore off pg1-2, slightly like redados and feel iffy about clarkbar.

[the worst]

Hello. My name is Satisfaction and I am town-aligned. Good luck and have fun.

@Clark I just finished reading Space. Tough break. Is there anything you wish you would have done differently in that game?

VOTE: Bluebell For Feryland!

That sounds a bit robotic/awkward to me. This is Satisfaction's first game, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. Does sound like it could be a noob scum, I'd be suspicious if it wasn't his first game.

I feel like I should have an opinion on this comment and the way they back down from it shortly after. But if I did I'd be pretending and I'm too cool to pretend. So let's just say this is an interesting callout and I don't think they're scum together.

[the worst]

Personally, I find this post is more AI to Arthur than it is Satisfaction. Maybe feels like fishing for an easy wagon. Very weak though. Measuring scummieness versus townieness on a scale from -100 to 100, I'd say I currently put Arthur at -2.

oh!!! yes I like you!!!!
I thought it was kinda startling that Arthur felt it was scummy but didn't feel compelled to vote it but then talked myself down because maybe Arthur just likes starting topics and then moving onto the next shiny thing. Who knows. I'm not magic.

Was there a reason you left your vote on Sati here rather than shifting to Arthur? If it's still fresh in your mind

[the worst]

Okay, catching up and starting. My apologies. And I still have to figure out an avatar. My townly pet rabbit had townista surgery and has needed a lot of townish care. So just getting to this right town, I mean right now. I guess I'll leave my affiliation a mystery. But it behooves me to say that Bluebell isn't such a silly name for Feryland. "Clarkbar" on the other hand... hmm.
VOTE: Clarkbar

This is so wholesome. Bluebell why did you pick Clark to vote here? It doesn't feel random

[the worst]

nuuuu not meta. its so unfair if someone dies bc of something they did 2 games ago or whatever

You're playing super similarly to how you played in Newbie 2027. You were scum in Newbie 2027. I'm trying so hard to give you a blank slate here haha.

This is a weakness of mine for sure. In my first game, a player was scum. In my second game, that player played the same way and I tunneled on them and led their lim on day one; and it turned out they were town. So I'm going to try to be really conscious and upfront about my inability at times to separate players' alignments between games mentally.

I like using meta to get reads, but I feel that sometimes I use meta in order to justify my existing reads to myself rather than create new ones. Also meta can be super time-consuming if I'm reading through whole games that I didn't play in and it seems to me like it gives me diminishing returns.

agree enthusiastically with this - meta returns a really interesting dataset but i tend to find it more valuable from the perspective of "is this person capable of xyz as scum?"; "is this a natural place for their brain to go while solving the game?"; etc. rather than just murdering people for doing things they have done before as scum. you tend to get 'personality tells', rather than 'alignment tells'.

anyway i digress, and alight my soap box throne: what pinged you as scummy from noraa?

[the worst]

Sigh, I was hoping you wouldn't be like this after last time.

Want to fill everyone else in on what happened last time?

In Newbie 2005, I thought that NK15 was scum for a large part of the game. 96 is not exactly a good look because I was hoping he could be a bit more responsible since then.

i have townread not known 15 once (1 time) in my entire career, and i got paranoid and miseliminated him in xylo

he's got a really unique playstyle, it's hard to get his alignment right and a lot of things which are quite natural for him at a personality level are "common scum tells".

yay meta~~~!

[the worst]

Putting out your reads at E-1 is something you can expect from scum(but also from town). However, they have

found

too many things there. At this point, it is likely scum trying to find things to make comments about nearly everyone.
What's worse is that all they have posting since leaving E-1 is posting fluff. Looks like scum being relieved from having been at E-1 and assuming their wagon breaks down.
VOTE: Satisfaction
This is scum.

Vote it out.

i'm pretty lukewarm on this read, but i think nk15 believes it

[the worst]

gotcha. while i was reading up there were a couple of points where i was like "oh this is towny who said this-- oh it's {nora/now-me}" and i felt really sad so i thought you might have some exciting spicy reasoning for a super secret read

it's fine if you don't have the read tho just making conversation

[the worst]

Welcome TW, happy to be playing with you again.

you too my friend <3


quick lazy reads off read-up
town: {tw}
townread: {reda}
townlean: {mundi, sati, maybe nk15? i don't know help}
null: {egix, bbellz}
scumlean: {arthur, clark}

i'm p comfortable keeping my vote on arthur for the momentttttt

[the worst]

My Clark read is hard to explain, honestly. I feel like he's performing for us, to some extent. He feels like friendly enough and like he wants to be seen to be doing things but I feel what he's saying, uh...lack a certain crunchy quality? He's still in first gear?

[the worst]

:[

[the worst]

@Clark I just finished reading Space. Tough break. Is there anything you wish you would have done differently in that game?

i liked the way he started a dialogue here and like, actually followed through on it.
it didn't really go anywhere because sati and clarky are both polite bois but it felt like he was prodding for something.

Personally, I find this post is more AI to Arthur than it is Satisfaction. Maybe feels like fishing for an easy wagon. Very weak though. Measuring scummieness versus townieness on a scale from -100 to 100, I'd say I currently put Arthur at -2.

Mundivore, does it make you feel any particular way about Egix96? If so, more or less of an indication than from Arthur?

i liked this; i thought mundi's post was pretty good but egix is indeed kinda invisible atp

VOTE: ArthurConyl It feels like you were fishing for support and then quickly backed down. Why post #35 and #37 at all if you are, as you said, 1) not suspicious and 2) giving me the benefit of the doubt?

Egix96, I'd like to hear what you think about what I am seeing as a backpedal by Arthur.

i vibe w this; i know people like reacted to you earlier but i think sati elaborated on it in a way which needed to happen

P.S. Why do you want to hear from Egix?

I’m happy to answer that, but I’d like to hear from Egix first if you don’t mind.

Hmf. I mean I'm happy to wait for Egix to answer, but why do you need him to answer before you can answer? A wee bit odd.

I wanted to wait because I don't think Egix actually finds my intro to be scummy. I was waiting to see if he would say that himself. I thought he was scumhunting. After his response, I feel less confident in that assessment.

i think this comes from a critical mindset which is reading egix's posts and trying to glean something from them. at rand this mindset is town (solving alignments) before it's scum (trying to parse whether egix is pocketable).

he's ignored my reasoning

I didn't ignore it, I just think you might be lying.

@art i was also kinda indifferent on your reasoning, sorry.

Hooold up there,

@Not Known 15.

You've probably just done the scummiest thing yet in this game. Please explain why I shouldn't transfer my vote to you. You put Satisfaction at E-1 and not even a reason? You're practically begging to be scumread.

Interesting. So E-1 is significant, but not enough to unvote?

this was the one which made me go "oomph!"
to rephrase in ~worstisms~ what i /think/ he's saying, you accidentally applied a double standard to NK15:
- putting satisfaction to e-1 was bad because NK15 didn't explain it
- satisfaction actually being at e-1 is fine, otherwise you would have thought to shift your vote

so is your motivation to work out why NK15 put sati at e-1 (and ergo, what his alignment could be?) - or is your motivation to make NK15 look bad for putting sati at e-1 (and ergo, attempt to set him up for the elim?)

On the off chance that a wild hammer slips in and I don't get the chance to share, here are all of my notes as of right now:

this post is fine and not really ai but i enjoyed that he has several reads but i actually tend towards agreeing with them.

his read on noraa was good. i'd call my pred towny, but she's quite sociable. buddying anxiety feels fine. his reads on red & you are quite good, and his read on nk15 is imo very good. there's a kind of soft discomfort with his reads (e.g. his strongest townread afaict is "town or smart scum") which i think comes from newbtown paranoia before newbscum clumsily trying to keep miselim doors open.

VOTE: Bluebell How’s that next poem coming along?

given he still doesn't townread you but you're smack in the middle of the spotlight: this isn't a vote scum!sati needs to make if you're town. i think it's a vote made because he wants to sort blueb.

why would someone question a read that they agree with

This is the second time in the game you've had a stance that doesn't seem genuine to me. I can think of what.... at least 3 answers to this question right now. It's hard for me to believe that you cannot.

i like this.

Let's go.

i think he believes this read. when analysing sati's alignment, whether he's right or wrong is largely immaterial: you can get into his head better if you read it kinda like, uuuhh. here's an example of some stuff that sometimes jumps into my mind when i see people talk about their reads.

Spoiler: lovely diagram

using the "high conviction scumread" column for a moment i... don't think scum!sati needs to dunk on you while also voting for bluebell and i think the general tonality of the case feels more like he feels like he's "caught" you which i tend to associate with a sincere/uninformed aka. town-aligned mindset

Both of the 2 wagons have successfully produced content. She is the darkest blind spot.

@Bluebell who is scum. who is town.

pressing nullreads for more content is cool and good.

[the worst]

Hello. My name is Satisfaction and I am town-aligned. Good luck and have fun.

also he claimed town in his first post. like. why would scum lie to us like that? that's just mean.

[the worst]

notes

this has been drifting around in my head: would you please write like, an essay introduction/conclusion style synopsis of how you think redados is approaching this game and consequently what his alignment is?

[the worst]

But regarding your request, and especially rereading Redados' reactions to Noraa, I say he is a consistently kind and careful companion, dedicated to and delighting in the Great Scummy Hunt, be he imp or be he guardian of the good. We will not divine any deeper devices at this time and may simply benefit from his pro-town analyses, remembering that pro-town activities do not necessarily equal a true townie identity. (#187)

Apologies to take a butter knife to your nonchalance but, alas, we are here to murder the scums.

The tone of your post sounds like you think red is pocketing scum or we are all giving him too easy a pass. Why?

[the worst]

Sati is sassy. I like it.

[the worst]

This is my second game with Red. I think Red just has 'resting pocket tone.' I've been trying to figure out why my gut says he's scummy this game and so far that's the only thing I can think of, rather than anything solid.

Sure, I can definitely see this. Respectfully I'm hoping to coax an answer out of Blueb, I'm fairly comfortable with your content levels atm. :p

I also suffer from "resting pocket tone" and love that turn of phrase. Being adorable is a curse. (As is being modest, of course)

[the worst]

I think I've seen two different people say that if one of us is scum, the other probably isn't (or maybe you, twice? I'd have to check).

If I haven't said this, I agree. I also think you're more likely both-town before both-scum.

That said, I'm just as wary that it's town versus town. If so, would that make an elim between us less informative?

eh, eliminations are rarely good because they're informative.
they're good because they're on scum, or townies who were distracting enough that we'd need to kill them to elim scum.

If I was under a hammer right now you wouldn't hear me screaming, "Get Arthur tomorrow after I flip town!"

i can see this. you're solving arthur.

The post that started our whole beef could have just as easily been an eager Arthur wanting to contribute to a game that had just started, but not feeling very confident, as it could have been him trying to test the waters or draw suspicion towards me.

My entire response to this was "but how did his read on you develop?" but I think you're already searching for agendas so I don't really have anything of value to add. yeah. Arthur's trajectory reads fake but he's not overtly bleeding obvscum everywhere by any stretch. That said, I think there's a good deal of townier players in this plist which generally means a slot I *don't* townread is more likely to be scum (unless my reads suck).

[the worst]

incidentally
VOTE: blueb

[the worst]

pagetop

pedit:

[the worst]

SHELLY
STOP
REPLACING
INTO
SCUM
SLOTS

hello btw are you town this time?

[the worst]

i am so upset

[the worst]

just for the jury: shelly has beat me as scum twice in like, the last month i think? so we are now engaged in a blood feud. just without the blood.

[the worst]

"But if I did I'd be pretending" sounds self aware, +3 scumpoints

when have you ever not seen me self-aware? i'm one of the most prolific mafia addicts currently playing onsite, it would be disturbing if i wasn't self-aware.

why are you prodding someone after their RANDOM voting stage vote

(as quoted) the vote didn't seem random. it was also a fair while after others' random votes. something about the timing of it felt like a ~decision~ to vote there rather than a whimsical rvs vote.

worsty despite shading clark (me) why do you never vote it? thats straight out weird

it's a gut read. i'm waiting for you to do something scummy. like mount a bad-faith scumcase against someone who's obvtown... or something like that

this sets off bells, seems like you're trying to fill space up with words and generally flippantly pocketing satisfaction who i think is pretty townie so far

actually i was responding to arthur, who asked for a towncase on satisfaction. of the sati wagon i would not be surprised if we have scum in {arthur,egix} so i'm really interested to see how they will respond to actually being provided with a strong towncase.

i don't really care what sati thinks of me ngl




missed this one accidentally:

why do you think nk15 believes a super early E-1

... did you read the post i quoted?
the only way I could describe that vote from NK15 is "righteous". I definitely think he feels like he's caught scum, even though I strongly disagree with his read.

[the worst]

but all of your posts are big ugly quote walls. i don't think the mod can spoiler all of your posts.

[the worst]

i'm kinda fine waiting for arthur to come back and reevaluate his read on sati now that someone has actually tried to explain a townread on him.
also happy to wait for blueb to develop her reads.

pedit: oh this is a juicy one

[the worst]

in 2023 you were open. flexible, spontaneous, i could see your posts made without a second thought

i am open, flexible and spontaneous when i want to be. i'm slowmoving, analytical and considered when i want to be. what makes you think spontaneity is a towntell?

uh ok but it's not your job to traffic cop fwiw

i straight up don't care if you don't think i'm entitled to have a ~feeling~ about blueb's vote.
the vote didn't feel random
i'm gonna ask what she was thinking

Town don't wait for people do to something, town is supposed to be *proactive*

sure, that's fine. i have 8 slots to sort in this game. clark isn't the centre of my universe, you aren't the centre of my universe. i'm gonna use my proactive energy where it feels well-spent.

[the worst]

"idrc about self image" sounds like a very forced townslip tbh

could you please circle back and respond to the lines above this comment which are actually game-related and AI?

okay can you elaborate on that then

eh
your slot has less content than mine, let's make this more fun:

do you disagree?
if so, explain what you're seeing.
if not, explain why you want me to do this.

[the worst]

hmm
VOTE: shelly this is actually just shelly's scumgame again

[the worst]

not your job to traffic cop

this is the second time you've said this.

do you think traffic copping is... asking people to offer thoughts on something?

[the worst]

I call omgus.

you would. :p you like making a lot of noise as scum, but you still seem to think that NAI buzzwords make your miselim targets look bad. revisit my post and try again please.

were my walls and walls of quotes and catch up not townie enough?

i mean your read on me literally only makes sense if you're trying to make me look like scum.

Nope! Just blatant OMGUS from scumworst here, and obviously trying to get rid of rusty town!me. I can't believe it worsty, let me enjoy feryland instead of limbaiting me

could you please respond to the AI parts of my post rather than postuing?

do you think traffic copping is... asking people to offer thoughts on something?

That + not giving YOUR OWN thoughts

at a like, objective mafia theory level this is a really bad thing to push!
there's a lot to be said for pushing inexperienced/awkward scum into talking about things which are hard to make up. why? because they have to make up answers, and that's hard!

i can't talk for reddy, but i'm asking bluey to elaborate on something which i personally don't care very much about. but i feel like if she's town, it's something she's actually actively thinking about. => if she's scum, i'm calling her out on something which likely was underconsidered.

if i offer my opinion on the vote immediately it makes her post addressing my comment, a "response to my accusation", rather than "an explanation of her action". the former has a finite number of ways it can be played off, and tends to be fairly un-interesting. on the flipside people who are pressured into explaining what they're doing and what they're thinking are a lot more likely to make a mistake. that's the thin ice i want to be pushing people onto.

[the worst]

if anyone is interested this antagonism is nearly identical to the approach scum!shelly took to town!me's replace-into newbie 2023

[the worst]

"But if I did I'd be pretending" sounds self aware, +3 scumpoints

when have you ever not seen me self-aware? i'm one of the most prolific mafia addicts currently playing onsite, it would be disturbing if i wasn't self-aware.

in 2023 you were open. flexible, spontaneous, i could see your posts made without a second thought

why are you prodding someone after their RANDOM voting stage vote

(as quoted) the vote didn't seem random. it was also a fair while after others' random votes. something about the timing of it felt like a ~decision~ to vote there rather than a whimsical rvs vote.

uh ok but it's not your job to traffic cop fwiw

worsty despite shading clark (me) why do you never vote it? thats straight out weird

it's a gut read. i'm waiting for you to do something scummy. like mount a bad-faith scumcase against someone who's obvtown... or something like that

Town don't wait for people do to something, town is supposed to be *proactive*

this sets off bells, seems like you're trying to fill space up with words and generally flippantly pocketing satisfaction who i think is pretty townie so far

actually i was responding to arthur, who asked for a towncase on satisfaction. of the sati wagon i would not be surprised if we have scum in {arthur,egix} so i'm really interested to see how they will respond to actually being provided with a strong towncase.

i don't really care what sati thinks of me ngl

"idrc about self image" sounds like a very forced townslip tbh

missed this one accidentally:

why do you think nk15 believes a super early E-1

... did you read the post i quoted?
the only way I could describe that vote from NK15 is "righteous". I definitely think he feels like he's caught scum, even though I strongly disagree with his read.

okay can you elaborate on that then

taking a look at this post at an holistic level - i've italicised the most 'case in point' example.

1. this dialogue opens with arthur asking for a satisfaction towncase.
   
2. i then provide the satisfaction towncase.
   
3. shelly then accuses me of doing the towncase to flood the thread by casing an obvtown player. this means she has decided to overlook why i did the case (i am trying to force arthur to reevaluate)
   
4. i explain that i wasn't doing it to make people townread sati; i was doing it to force arthur to reevaluate.
   
5. shelly ignores this, and focuses on my throwaway comment.

there is a repeated pattern where shelly is ignoring some parts of my play, and focusing on others.
more specifically: she is ignoring parts of my play which are read-related, because i am trying to solve the game. she is focusing on the parts of my play which she can call ~optically bad~, at the exclusion of all else.

if this were a political argument i'd be more patient and appreciate of the tactic, but meh. this is a game of mafia. town are trying to find mafia, scum are trying to arrange miselims. shelly isn't trying to sort me. she's trying to make me look bad.

[the worst]

@shelly, i'm actually more interested to see if *you* can pick the parts of my posts which are worth responding to.

i think i've alignment told this game; i think i could scumcase and towncase myself. i don't think you're doing either. you're undermining, and i'm already aware that's your modus operandi as scum.

[the worst]

you can dig through my towncase if you want. like you said, i think he's kinda obvtown and don't think i'd really struggle to make that post as either alignment. there's stuff i'm more alarmed that you didn't notice.

[the worst]

still null

[the worst]

it's opportunistic wagoning.

[the worst]

it was town opportunism.

[the worst]

with this much time left in the phase, my modus operandi is to push my non-townreads into the spotlight so they make mistakes.
i see one of my stronger townreads throwing a stray vote onto blueb, who i am null on.

do i

a:

leave my vote on a lead wagon i scumread, arthur?

b:

vanity vote egix while leaving sati vanity voting blueb?

c:

join sati on blueb and have two votes on that wagon?

incidentally on the dl i'd be kinda surprised if {arthur, egix} is exactly the scumteam (doubly so since you're literally transparently scum).

[the worst]

reveal even-more-innocent-child.

take that.

[the worst]

i'm gonna let the thread breathe a little. shelly is scum.

[the worst]

i have scumcased you. and i don't have your partner worked out yet, because i have actual reads. :p

[the worst]

Hello. My name is Satisfaction and I am town-aligned. Good luck and have fun.

@Clark I just finished reading Space. Tough break. Is there anything you wish you would have done differently in that game?

VOTE: Bluebell For Feryland!

That sounds a bit robotic/awkward to me. This is Satisfaction's first game, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. Does sound like it could be a noob scum, I'd be suspicious if it wasn't his first game.

good trying to produce content and get us out of RVS

VOTE: ArthurConyl It feels like you were fishing for support and then quickly backed down. Why post #35 and #37 at all if you are, as you said, 1) not suspicious and 2) giving me the benefit of the doubt?

Egix96, I'd like to hear what you think about what I am seeing as a backpedal by Arthur.

I think you are perhaps overreading things. What makes you think I was fishing for support? Even you agreed that would be very weak. I also explained that I was trying to generate discussion and clearly stated in my original post that it was probably NAI. If anything, it feels more like you're trying to start a wagon on me for arbitary reasons.

FoS Satisfaction

good making early read but this is like 99% TvT?

Hooold up there,

@Not Known 15.

You've probably just done the scummiest thing yet in this game. Please explain why I shouldn't transfer my vote to you. You put Satisfaction at E-1 and not even a reason? You're practically begging to be scumread.

that e-1 is probably TSTBS

Reread Part 2:

Noraa:

Ok, so at the start Noraa was kinda sitting on the fence. Not really saying much either way. Then he starts saying I'm scummy and later votes me in post #105. Really he only gives one reason-post:

Spoiler:

Hooold up there,

@Not Known 15.

You've probably just done the scummiest thing yet in this game. Please explain why I shouldn't transfer my vote to you. You put Satisfaction at E-1 and not even a reason? You're practically begging to be scumread.

I agree but u don't seem much less scummy tbh. At this point in time it just seems like ur trying really hard to start all the wagons so you can make sure ur partner and u r safe

I read my own ISO at this point to see if I was starting "all the wagons." Uh no. The only guy I focused on from the start was Satisfaction. Never started any other wagons. You can read my ISO if you want. So I feel like Noraa's one reason for voting me is quite weak.

I'm leaning scum on Noraa, but less scummy than Mundivore. Either that or he's not a very pro-town player.

yay someone is vibing with my noraaworst scumread

Part 4?

Redados:

Overall, I'm leaning town on Redados. His reads and analysis are reasonable, even if he has the inverse of my reads. Btw I hate meta
One thing I would like to ask you. In post #129 you said Mundivore was town. Would like to hear some reasons please.

Satisfaction:

Best for last? XD

Spoiler:

On the off chance that a wild hammer slips in and I don't get the chance to share, here are all of my notes as of right now:

Noraa (Neutral-town feels. Buddying me or teamwork?)
36: Defends me / dismisses suspicion. Reasonable, townish.
92: Presses Not Known when he votes for me with no comment. Townish, hunting.

Mundivore (low participation)
52: Says what I was thinking re: Arthur suspicion. Pings town, but could be mafia pulling a string.

Bluebell --- no substantive contribution by page 3 (but came in late)
84: she's rhyming, which is fun, but not contributing on page 4

Redados (town or smart scum)
44: "practically everything in RVS is NAI" -- agreed
50: presses Mundivore to weigh in on my intro (hunting or performative towniness)
63: direct, succinct answer to my weak probe. No attitude or defensiveness. Pings town.

ArthurConyl (no read, might be noob scum)
35: Weakly agrees with Egix's weak push on me.
40: Backs down quickly when challenged by Noraa. Testing waters or changing mind?
78: Tries to defend himself. Maybe flustered, maybe floundering to cover backpedal. Read meta.
93: Reacts to Not Known's silent E-1 vote on me. Says he is "begging to be scumread." Does not remove his own vote, leaves me at E-1. Pings scum.

Egix96 (SE) (lurking)
33: First non RVS comment of the game + vote. Page 2. Makes weak poke at me. Hunting?
81: Confirms that his initial vote was supposedly serious. Dismisses backpedaling theory in support of Arthur. Mildly pings scum. Read meta.

ClarkBar (SE) --- no substantive contribution by page 4 (working over the weekend)

Not Known 15 (SE) (mild town, need more)
54: Goes out of his way to weigh in on my intro issue without being pressed directly. Pings town.
90: Votes for me based on Artur's pushback. Only quotes, no comment. I think this is town applying pressure. Buuuut claims to not know the vote count. That seems cavalier but not necessarily scummy.

Actually I do like this post. I would read you town for it. But it feels like you're trying hard to say everything and nothing at the same time. The section about me, fair. I do have a big problem with you not acknowledging my post #73:

Spoiler:

VOTE: ArthurConyl It feels like you were fishing for support and then quickly backed down. Why post #35 and #37 at all if you are, as you said, 1) not suspicious and 2) giving me the benefit of the doubt?

Egix96, I'd like to hear what you think about what I am seeing as a backpedal by Arthur.

I think you are perhaps overreading things. What makes you think I was fishing for support? Even you agreed that would be very weak. I also explained that I was trying to generate discussion and clearly stated in my original post that it was probably NAI. If anything, it feels more like you're trying to start a wagon on me for arbitary reasons.

FoS Satisfaction

In both your posts, #91 and #98, you should have addressed it. In #91 you stated that I was lying. This is very much what I would expect scum to do. I would expect town to keep pushing and prodding, asking me why I do this and that. Instead you just stop and say "you're lying." If you had more solid reasons for scumreading me I wouldn't be scumreading you so much.

Satisfaction I still find to be moderately scummy. If you can back up your vote on me, I'll take my vote off you.

weird how arthur claims to move *off* satis after they make a case on them = perspective slip of town!satis scum!arthur or am I reading too much into things
now time to reread satis, I have a gut tr on them because of OP stating they're town

interesting
this doesn't read like you're looking at a possible tw scumbuddy

[the worst]

i don't know what form you want my question to answer and feel obligated to ask whether this question breaks rules

[the worst]

no problems.

[the worst]

uh you're transparently posturing a scumteam a couple of hours after replacing in.
this is me being at work and figuring there's little value in discrediting you when people are going to see what you're doing.

[the worst]

i am not trying to intentionally misrep anything

[the worst]

2: I presume you mean "at THAT point" when you say atp because I'm sure you realise that it wouldn't be unusual if you still couldn't "see" me now.

yeah at that point, not at this point.

8 (and final): I'm not seeing how anyone couldn't have done this.

sure, that's fair. allow that it's attributable to either alignment - on the balance of things how do you feel about the rest of what I'm seeing?

9: Why did you like it? I felt the opposite way.

re. pressuring nullreads? be scumreads Arthur; Arthur is already in the spotlight. I don't feel like he has much of a read on blue, who isn't feeling the pressure of this game (her reads are developing slowly and with little nuance which means it's hard to read her alignment with clarity). with time I think sorting blue early is beneficial; I'm not sure scum doesn't just bank on her being a miselim later or just ignore her.

[the worst]

I am the hammer, alighting the head of the nail. The nail has been pressed against the thing which I am striking the head of the nail in the direction of.

Idk maaannnn what did you think of nk15's scumcase on Sati? How did it vibe with your feelings? / Do you not think he believes it?

[the worst]

@the worst: I don't think shelly's crazy-aggressive, tunneling play is AI. I think that's just her playstyle, and we'll have to work around it. As things are, the slot feels null to me.

@shellyc: I don't know if I see the worst as scum here. He seems to be putting in pretty good effort to solve.

If you two just duke it out here, it's going to be hard to tell if it's TvT or not. So far it kind of just feels like a slapfight. There are definitely more interesting targets, IMO, and if you two just tunnel each other we could miss out on some dank analysis.

Idk, this whole section feels... off? Pockety? Middleman-ish? The usage of the word "dank" in particular gives it a very "hey fellow kids" sort of vibe.

That post actually really struck me as a "set on fire if shelly is actually town" post but I still just think I'd rather kill shelly.

[the worst]

shellyc

(2): the worst, Not Known 15

Bluebell

(1): Satisfaction

Satisfaction

(1): ArthurConyl

ArthurConyl

(1): Mundivore

Egix96

(1): Bluebell

the worst

(1): shellyc

Not Known 15

(1): Egix96

Not Voting

(1): Redados

Red, how would you feel about voting Mundivore? I'll then vote you. For the art.

[the worst]

I feel ignored.

Generally I think you might be town this game tbqh but it's not a super strong feeling so I'm kinda, observing you I suppose. :3

It's not a massive thing to work off but did my Sati towncase make you feel any feelings?

[the worst]

@shellyc: I don't know if I see the worst as scum here. He seems to be putting in pretty good effort to solve.

I read a scum!worst game yesterday, he's very good as scum and likes the alignment more

this reminds me of someone I know.
her name like starts an S, and rhymes with "belly".
I just can't remember what it was, hmm

pedit: yes and that makes me think the fact you feel very confident here and like you're entitled to be townread is a scum indicator D:

[the worst]

I feel ignored.

tbh this after mundivore's post is a bit LAMIST-y

how is it LAMIST? why does it matter if it is LAMIST? two separate questions, talk me through what you're thinking.

I think this post comes from town slightly more often than scum fwiw but not like, a lot more often

[the worst]

TW has agreed with everything I’ve said since he replaced in and he townreads me right off the bat. That makes me nervous. I’m looking forward to some constructive disagreement.

sure: I think you need a haircut.
for real though we're half way thru D1 in a micro. there's a bit of tension but not a lot. do you think anything you've said is disagreeable enough that I should be trying to pick a fight or is this a more high-level apprehension type thing?

also repping out of boredom bans you from joining the queue

it doesn't, if youre outright uncomfortable playing a game I think it's respectable to replace out. I'm sure there's a reason for Noraa's departure and likely she'll be willing to share postgame; for now let's focus on the game.

As an aside it is very poor form to replace out over your alignment rand or like, as a pattern behaviour (if someone replaced out of every third game out of boredom I'd encourage them to find another hobby), so at an honour-system level I dig what you're saying.

/teaching moment

[the worst]

I want to talk to bluebell now, I feel like there's something *interesting* regarding that slot

is this like something quantifiable you can share? I've aired a bit of my anxiety with blueb's slot and I'd love some more input. in fact after red and I manipulate the wagons into an artistic statement, I think it'd be very rewarding to drive blueb to E-1.

[the worst]

I am entitled to be townread because I am town. end of convo.

pedit: mundivore tr'd me + worst in the post before 360 but then nk15 felt he was ignored in the townreads giveaway so i feel it's LAMIST?
it matters if it's LAMIST because LAMIST is a common scumtell

LAMIST was a great scumtell back in like 2010. it's now a personality tell, because guess what? some people who are town like to draw attention to the fact that they're town. some people who are scum aren't capable of powering through the game so they like to draw attention to things they've done that look towny.

if you lean into LAMIST as an outright scumtell, you're going to eliminate a lot of players of a certain type, and not of a certain alignment, more often than random. for a bit of fun, I'd challenge you to ask /why/ they're LAMISTing. lmk what you think

[the worst]

I am entitled to be townread because I am town. end of convo.

the first time someone said this to me he was scum; I've always remembered that and have definitely stolen this line a few times.

still, fun meta take: you feel more entitled to be townread as scum than you do as town.

[the worst]

being agreeable is a pretty good way to pocket

yup. it also often comes from townies who are agreeable to things. :p once again, you can read this as a low level scum tell IF you are already operating under the assumption I'm scum. am I buddying him? sure, I'm adorable. am I pocketing him? nah.

pedit: holding back for now but I think blue's been synthesising much of other's content and havent driven the game forwards nor shown much interest in solving

sure, this is close to the reason I voted her (which I have been over). I think she'd be a fabulous lead wagon~!

side note why am I getting pedited so much

I'm an energetic boi

[the worst]

they're LAMIST-ing to look naturally townie and for that valuable towncred

do you think that post was towny? why would anyone think that post is towny? explain in as much detail as you can pls because I think it is towny but I don't think anyone else here is on my wavelength.

can you back that up with anything?

just a vibe off marathon weekend + our finished games. I'd be outright surprised if you disagree, your scumgame is a lot more capable of obvtowning than your towngame.

[the worst]

I have been away for 2 days and wow, what a thread. Give me a moment and I'll analyse worst vs shelly. Personally, I feel like scum are laughing at town for descending into chaos ;/

if you think it's TvT, can you give reasoning

why does this feeeeel likeeeee TMI (too much information)?

yeeeeah

[the worst]

I'm still rereading, give me a few minutes. In the meantime

shelly and worst,

would it be too much to ask that you stop flooding the thread? I'm seeing so many short/fluffy posts you'd think this is a chat room.

due respect, I'm probably not going to change my posting habits because you asked me to. I'll make somewhat of an effort but if it feels organic to hit submit, I'm gonna hit submit.

[the worst]

"yeah" post Ugh, keep flooding then. Perhaps if I say that flooding puts people off the game, you'll stop?

settle pls

[the worst]

if you spent as much time trying to sort alignments as you did complaining about "flooding" (short, game related posts for posterity) I don't think we'd have this issue dude. I'm not going to come at you for your slow, insightful posts. I'll make some effort to make longer/less frequent posts. But again, I'm not changing for you and I wouldn't expect you to change for me. I don't see e.g. nk15 complaining about this games pace, and he has a third of your posts. this game is progressing somewhat slowly on average.

I'll respect your need for a slower pace, within reason. Please respect the fact that different people post differently. If you think it's alignment indicative let's talk about it, otherwise let's get back to the game.

[the worst]

slow, uninsightful posts*
damn autocorrect ruining my snark.

[the worst]

I feel ignored.

Generally I think you might be town this game tbqh but it's not a super strong feeling so I'm kinda, observing you I suppose. :3

It's not a massive thing to work off but did my Sati towncase make you feel any feelings?

@Nk15 still pretty interested in this, if you wouldn't mind.

[the worst]

VOTE: shelly

[the worst]

if i'm wrong on shelly arthur is scum
if i'm right on shelly sure, arthur is probably still scum
i'm being selfish and shelly is more likely to kill us all and endgame. >:

pedit: true,

intent to hammer

[the worst]

@TW so talk to me about vote counting, bud.

I'm at work - what do you need?

[the worst]

I think Satisfaction is probably town, but I think NK15 had good points with their initial scumcase against him—I find it particularly frustrating the way Satisfaction started acting like conftown the second he got off of E-1. Main reason I'd go for a Satisfaction elim is that it's an information dense elim... there was a lot of interesting interaction in that early Satisfaction wagon, and getting to see his role card would tell us a lot about the alignments of other people.

an information-dense elim on town is a really bad elim on several levels fwiw

[the worst]

run two solves: one ~in general~, one on the assumption he's town. how do things look?
i think that's roughly how you've approached the game, but
we can elim slimier players for the same result.

[the worst]

Town:
Egix96

spicy

why is egix alongside sati for you?

[the worst]

questioning mark on a lot of the plist looks like scum trying to shade everyone

actually this looks like scum trying to shade blue. lol.

[the worst]

mundi we were this close
THIS CLOSE
to glory

[the worst]

worst you're scum or in deep confbias

WHY TF IS BEING QUESTION MARK ON EVERYONE TOWNIE???

it's a typographical issue; it's not alignment indicative.

[the worst]

Can you entertain counterfactuals and look in a world which I am town, because I REALLY AM TOWN?

sure - arthur is still scum i think? i have no idea who his partner would be. pretty lukewarm on just yeeting blueb out of a catapult tho. her reads need to develop & catch up but she's probably just best handled by night actions or something.

[the worst]

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=83727
cult game, recruited n2

viewtopic.php?f=83&t=83833
scumgame, recruited n0

all others are quite old now.

[the worst]

ah yeah obligatory night action fun: if we get a scumflip today, jailkeeper + tracker targets who go nowhere are guaranteed to be town, if they don't go anywhere (as they would not have done the nightkill)

obviously cop & friendly neighbour results are guaranteed : )

if we don't get a scumflip, jailkeeper is best served acting like a doctor and trying to protect someone from the scum nk

if someone can get an alignment result on blueb, maybe nk15, or one of {shelly,me} it'll make the post-claim game real easy

[the worst]

worsty when did you start SRing arthur and why?

like. the entire way thru his iso. he's scummy.
talk about something i actually need to do stretches for please?

[the worst]

sigh

[the worst]

my read is that you're not reading mundi's posts past a superficial level either.

[the worst]

Scenario for consideration:

Noraa->the worst

and

ClarkBar->shelly

is the scum team.

Relevant facts and events:

• Noraa and Clark had almost no interaction.
• Noraa did 3 things this game. None were controversial. 1) Chatted with Arthur about my intro, 2) asked Not Known why he sheep voted at me with no comment, and 3) hopped on the Arthur wagon behind Mundivore.
• Clark posted almost only fluff (the only player who I had no read intel on at all when I was at E-1). Oh and he voted Arthur.
• 221: TW replaces in for Noraa and scumreads Clark during his initial catchup (along with Arthur, everybody's favorite miselim). However, he gives essentially no reason. I believe this is TW distancing. Giving a scumread with no substantial case separates them but doesn't convince the town that Clark is scum, leaving them both cleaner.
• Shelly subs in for Clark and all hell breaks loose. Shelly finds a few picky things about TW that call into question his motivations but it's really similar to my case on Arthur in that it feels like digging into technicalities and communication style rather than actually finding scum-motivated behavior. They lay into each other. Nobody else can really gather any meaningful takeaway from it. It smells town versus town. I believe this is intentional. Neither of them gave a case for the other that was convincing to the rest of us.
  
  Especially interesting to me is how TW seems to have a very weak case against shelly. He doesn't seem to actually try to present a case, he points to his authority as somebody who has recently lost against shelly. Reminder: both players are calling for the others' head at this point and they are both experienced players who know how to communicate their cases.

Now at this point, something interesting happens. First, the town gets a friendly reminder from the largely town-read Mundivore. We are running low on time. Egix comes in and expresses the same concern. I begin writing up my Arthur vote and I see shelly has jumped over to him in my preview.

I make the E-2 vote behind her and I write it out explicitly in my post:

VOTE: ArthurConyl E-2

• Two minutes later, shelly declares it is actually E-1 and asks somebody to force a claim.
• I re-assert the count and tell her how she may have miscounted. She is wrong.
• the worst expresses intent to hammer. A hammer that by now he should know he isn't holding.
• Shelly again says that Arthur is E-1. She is still wrong. This is a full six minutes after the first time I wrote the count.
• I quickly unvote. This is now officially the scummiest thing that has happened in the game. This sort of "blood in the water" heat seeking missile behavior is 100% scum shelly. This is her game.
• Shelly provides an incorrect vote count. She's now supposedly miscounted twice? Her pedit is just a series of questions marks at my unvote. Why oh why am I holding up progress?

This was an organized gambit to get a role claim from Arthur. The timing was not an accident. That two different experienced players miscounted (one of them miscounting more than once?) is unlikely. They thought they could do this and brush it off as a simple accident. They thought they bought that with their doubledeckering^TM

VOTE: shellyc

if anyone thinks Sati is scum after this waterfall of paranoia, they very seriously need to check themselves.

this is sadly incorrect and the type of strategy which very few scum duos will actually bother engaging with on day one (for basically this reason: unless they really want to blow the thread up and drive each other into the ground, they're just going to look as though they're both manipulative). but it's an incredibly nuanced read which i believe and i'm pretty sure it's coming from town.

[the worst]

anecdotally, our responses to #499:

shelly: attempt to ridicule.
tw: this comes from town.

one is a survivalistic mindset, the other is preoccupied with sorting alignments.

[the worst]

I'm literally addicted to blatantly pocketing. Have been my whole life.

[the worst]

lol and now we are deep into the shelly and tw show. Brace yourself for two more pages of nothing.

Sadly this is the level of spite I'm driven to when someone beats me as scum back-to-back. But yeah she's also scum in this game.

[the worst]

worsty can you actually Elaborate why you think Satis paranoia comes from town?

paranoia is NAI by itself

there are many types of paranoia in mafia and honestly, most types are alignment indicative. paranoia that the two most vocal players in the thread are scumpartners is a paranoid mindset as old as time, and I've found it pretty inconsistent with a new!scum mindset

new!town geeeenerally sign up to newbie games because they wanna play mafia with good mafia players and have a good time. They are generally anxious about being manipulated by big site scary experienced mafia players.

on the flipside it's like, one newbie scum in a hundred who sees that they were wagoned and then widely incorrectly townread, and celebrates having the pressure taken off them by scumcasing the two most vocal players in the thread. that's a great way to dive face-first back into the spotlight, and I'm having a really hard time believing that's what scum!Sati would be doing here.

[the worst]

the type of strategy which very few scum duos will actually bother engaging with

Yes, except maybe a scum team made up of two experienced players who are used to being on opposite factions and are ready to style on a newbie game as a sort of victory lap?

the fact this post was typed while I was typing #515 is like. A massive indicator that I'm just right.

[the worst]

also: sure, maybe - I think you'll find in general it's undertaken by experienced skilled scum with *low* clout who don't think they'll actually successfully drive their bus elims through. but yeah your suggestion is fine, it isn't correct but it's not fallacious or unreasonable at all.

[the worst]

bussing is bad in general especially d1

@worsty do you think arthur + me is the solve aorn

eh, maybe. I am pretty sure you're scum. Arthur hasn't like, played a scummy game the way you have but he's explicitly not towny. Arthur was lead wagon before you overplayed, so it checks out you might have thought you were diverting the wagon. I think you know enough to know he isn't a lost cause. who knows.

[the worst]

@TW I'm going to give you an opportunity to lie for me here now that you've had a couple hours to think about it. Why didn't you know the count? Why did you see shelly's post in your preview (re: your pedit) but you didn't see mine?

Which count & which post didn't I see? Sorry, it is been over the last 5 hours the answer is as profound as "I've been at work".

[the worst]

?
my vote has been on shelly for like 80 years, I haven't tried to lolhammer anyone

[the worst]

ohhhhhhhhh
i didn't check the votes because i didn't really care whether he was e-1 or e-2
can you guess why not?

[the worst]

idm if you think shelly/me is the scumteam. you're wrong on 1-2 of us; i think you're only wrong on 1 of us. how you bounce back from that fact is more useful to me than begging you to reevaluate it d1; just keep the strength of your other reads carefully in check because eventually you'll need to evaluate them.

[the worst]

@shelly rereading #529 i think sati has a much stronger read on what i was doing there than you do

Oh no big deal. Just that one time when you pretended to try to hammer somebody.

if you are town and you actually think i'm trying to bury arthur with that post, i'm not really sure what to say to you here.

[the worst]

last interesting observation before i go back to work: shelly has not attempted to have a read on NK15. i think NK15 has been like, uncharacteristically divisive and easy to have a read on this game. i'm not sure what this really means but it's a thing.

[the worst]

i'm very happy that you're on team kill shelly.

[the worst]

Same place it has been all game. Anti-town behavior. No strong conviction that it’s scum-influenced.

fwiw i dig this

pedit: probability of shelly being scum in this game is 2/9 (2/8 from either of our perspectives assuming we are both town)
it's best we don't get bogged down with probability

[the worst]

shelly and i this game in full colour HD

[the worst]

last interesting observation before i go back to work: shelly has not attempted to have a read on NK15. i think NK15 has been like, uncharacteristically divisive and

easy to have a read on this game

. i'm not sure what this really means but it's a thing.

For you perhaps, but not for the rest of us.

hmm, fair.
I've only ever had a strong read on NK15 before and he turned out to be town.
I really do think he believed his scum!Sati case.

[the worst]

worsty lets talk; whats your read on egix?

eh he could to either way

you literally spent the last page posturing that we're partners because your crappy scumread on me didn't make sense with your default scumread of Arthur. why on earth would I engage you on this and why do you think it's a productive idea to engage me on this?

[the worst]

oh my god you're not even pretending to be town are you
you know what I'm gonna let the busier people catch up
see you tomorrow or so

[the worst]

I don't see what you're seeing. I don't really have a read on egix yet; he's kinda solvingish idk maybe town but could go either way. I doubt I'm gonna have a better read on egix until later in the game. you're going to come back and say we're scum together again. why do I need to be a party to this conversation? you made up a narrative, got caught for being a floppy fish, so you're making a more complicated narrative to try and squirm out of it.

idrc what you're saying past being superficially irritated at being shaded. I'm spending as much time on egix as everyone else in this game except you; i don't know where to land on him yet. your scumcase doesn't make me feel anything except like "maybe?"

[the worst]

I am fence sitting. I'm pretty null on egix. He could go either way.

[the worst]

If anything, Egix has been climbing more and more onto the radar as the game progresses.

second this. my read on egix has been trending upwards. I actually like Blue calling egix town when she did - I wouldn't say I'm also townreading him as strongly as Sati but like, sure. On the contrary shelly's null => null => town => scum with a scumcase I'm really hard pressed to believe feels more agenda-driven.

[the worst]

I don't think I could fully comprehend the situation since all that happened while I was asleep, but honestly I can kinda buy that TW just made an honest mistake since he would have been distracted with work stuff?

To be candid: more that I want Arthur/Shelly as lead wagons, I'm comfortable with either or both of them claiming (and nobody else), and I was just busy enough that I couldn't be bothered checking if I was /actually/ giving intent to hammer or whether I was just yelling it for the pressure.

Sati is correct that I was pretending to try and kill someone; I wouldn't have lolhammered Arthur, I like my vote on shelly too much

[the worst]

if anyone is a mason, a cop, or a doctor (or just a jailkeeper~), shelly is now confirmed scum to you. if you're a mason but think you're likely to be eliminated, just counterclaim. otherwise just follow your heart.

VOTE: arthur

[the worst]

sure, she'd be welcome to fakeclaim that.

regardless of what she does or doesn't claim, there's an overarching fact in this setup: certain roles are confirmable to exist, or not exist, based on other claims which happen later in the game. jailkeeper is one of those roles. if shelly is fakeclaiming, she'll be caught.

[the worst]

just quickly let's pretend she's scum fakeclaiming jailkeeper in any setup:

a1: cop & doc both know she's lying; she's confirmed scum as soon as they claim/flip
a2: jk knows she's lying; they counterclaim her the day before xylo, or she's confirmed scum if they flip
a3: both masons know she's lying; they can counterclaim & mutually confirm each other later or she's confirmed scum if either of them flip

b1: neither tpr currently knows she's lying (they can all co-exist, but only two at a time), but if we have a tracker claim/flip, then the fn knows she's lying and vice versa; if either flips, then the surviving TPR knows she's scum
b2: the jailkeeper knows she's scum. they can counterclaim her anytime before xylo. following a scumflip, jailkept players are confirmed to be town as long as there's a scum nightkill (as they can't have performed it). so if the jailkeeper counterclaims, they should confirm their target.
b3: doctor knows she's fakeclaiming; she's guiltied as soon as they die

c1: cop knows she's fakeclaiming; she's guiltied as soon as they die
c2: jk knows she's fakeclaiming; she's guiltied as soon as they die
c3: both masons know she's lying; they can counterclaim & mutually confirm each other later or she's confirmed scum if either of them flip

jailkeeper is a really bad fakeclaim, unless she's trying to draw out a counterclaim before she goes down. in which case i'd rather not give her the satisfaction, and just leave her alive until she's guiltied by the setup.
any objections?

[the worst]

jailkeeper is a really bad fakeclaim, unless she's trying to draw out a counterclaim before she goes down.

I'm not sure if you've read doggos, but Shelly made a really poorly thought out (in my opinion) fakeclaim, so we know that it's in her wheelhouse

sure, i think shelly's strength lies primarily in her ability to powerdrive eliminations & survive (slippery fishy) rather than her mechgame. i feel like my bias is showing; i still really don't......feel like she's actually town? but that has gone from being a complicated function to a boolean. the setup will literally tell us whether or not she's town, and if she is then scum really need to wipe her out. so it's kinda meh.

[the worst]

could I have an update on your Egix read please, Reda?

[the worst]

ah, if you're actually the jk it was very smart that you claimed exactly then.

if you're scum it'll be your downfall

<3

pedit: you have a much higher % chance of protecting the nightkill target, than successfully blocking the kill from going through. i'd encourage shooting into high NK value townreads rather than ~exactly who you think the scumteam is~ for the 1/28 (i think) chance you're right and then the 50% chance within that world that you block correctly.

i am manipulating maths to exaggerate my point, but
as either alignment i'd be giving the same advice.

[the worst]

oh yeah that advice was explicitly on the caveat of a greenflip.

if it's red, protect the person you think is most likely the partner - i'll be sad if it's me because i'm obvtown but i'll forgive you.

[the worst]

i didn't pick your crumb. i would not have tunneled you if i caught your crumb.

i'm calm because i've worn these shoes before. maybe you're a town jailkeeper, maybe you're fakeclaiming. it's day one and i have at least one non-you scum to find. no point getting bogged down because you're not going to be elim'd today.

[the worst]

1) Your crumb means nothing. Why would a crumb ever matter in a situation where other roles haven’t already been claimed.

that's the only time it's worth crumbing, because if you're counter-claimed it adds credibility to your claim?

2) TW was never excited for your elimination. Not since it seriously hit the table.

i was

Saying the claim was a spur of the moment decision is also a lie. Shelly already gave intent to claim and “self towncase”. I’m not interested in hearing either from her.

this is pretty semantic. bluntly: your solve is wrong. you might be right on shelly. i know you're wrong on me, but for sake of argument, whatever. assume you're wrong on at least one of us - where are the rest of your reads at?

[the worst]

satisfaction powerwolf?

it occurred to me as well but i still think he reads sincere, just like, mind mendingly confbiased. if he doesn't have any other reads his alignment will get really obvious when one/both of us flip, assuming we're t/t.

[the worst]

it occurred to me as well but i still think he reads sincere, just like, mind mendingly confbiased. if he doesn't have any other reads his alignment will get really obvious when one/both of us flip, assuming we're t/t.

hmmmmm

like it occured to me that scum can just stfu and nightkill me theres no need to shade me

yeeeah

[the worst]

knowing when to be reckless and when not to be is one of the most fun parts of mafia!

pedit: please don't elim me, that's uncool.

[the worst]

i'm at work sorry

[the worst]

LOL
ok yes nk15 is likely correct there

[the worst]

VOTE: Blue

[the worst]

#678 didn't make it into my brain, past my pre-coffee smog.

[the worst]

it's almost as if I vote people I scumread at deadline and people I nullread while there's time left. wild.

[the worst]

VOTE: Satisfaction

[the worst]

That's E-1.

[the worst]

Would you humour me, Blue? I'd be interested in seeing which of Redados' posts gave you that impression if you could please quote a few.

[the worst]

I doubt you're missing anything, don't worry - I'm sort of null about whether that's actually alignment indicative in a vacuum though and given Sari's explosion of conviction at eod1 I'm surprised to find him so lacklustre at the start of d2.

is there a reason why you aren't more surprised I turned around after towncasing him at some length earlier in the phase?

[the worst]

i'm an aggressive kind of dude

hmm
your avatar is cute.

so the climax of d1 was the slots i most wanted dead, both flipping green. so that's exciting. but this phase has kind of proceeded at the pace of a sleeping snail.
we could elim blue. i do have whimsical townreads, and i really very rarely whimsically townread her at all. she could easily be mafia. but i'm not going to pretend it wouldn't be a policy elim because of the very-slow pace at which she plays the game.

i do think sati being pressed for really hardcore doubling down on a very silly tw/shelly solve at EOD1 then entering d2 with "hmm not sure but i'm probably still right about about tw" probably needs to be explored. scum regularly have trouble presenting believable fakable read trajectory¹. sati is presenting no read trajectory. that tweaks me.

i'm kinda surprised nk15 dropped his intense read that i was >:{ maliciously leading newbies astray >:{ with my mechanical blonde moment. i don't really get what he's doing here but i still think he believed his scumcase on sati on d1.

you're asking rewarding probing questions, and your avi is cute, so i'm like thinking you're probably town again i guess. idk. your evaluation of me in #738 is correct in a way that doesn't feel like you're ~~seeking a particular answer~~ or something. contrarily redados is kinda coasting

Thanks for explaining. I guess does being at E-1 not count as under a hammer? I still think she claimed too early here but I think E-1 is generally a fine time to claim

The worst, where is your mind at right now? What are your thoughts at this point now that we've seen day one play out

and i can't really remember why i was townreading him

i can't remember if i love egix or not this game but i think......maybe yes?




¹ fun fact: fferyllt invented this word.

[the worst]

how are you viewing redados this phase?

[the worst]

I've never rolled scum once in my entire life.
Also I feel like a lot of my towngames are either Newbie 2031, or starting to get a little old - but I'll tally some up when I'm back at my laptop.

[the worst]

scum:

micro 960
some parts of this game got kinda intense and uncomfortable. i'm including it for completion but like, read at your own peril.

Spoiler:

i was scum, survived from rand to endgame.

open 786

Spoiler:

i was a town jailkeeper turn cult recruit on night two.
prior to this post, i was town... from this point on, i was a scumbag.

town:

open 794

Spoiler:

town power role via a drafting system. i was a vig, so often not actually a power role you want to *use*, but often also a role which can be confirmed town.
i accidentally caught scum off their opening posts and then accidentally caught their partner trying to take the fall for them. but then more useful players actually eliminated them.
the game went into mechanical autowin on d3 (there were more confirmed + confirmable slots, then scum + elimable slots. really unlucky situation for scum but they walked into the trap.)

newbie 2026

Spoiler:

i replaced in late-ish, had a really bad read on the scum we were about to flip, then got cleared by the jailkeeper. then voted wrong in xylo and lost :'(

newbie 2023

Spoiler:

replaced in midgame, actually had somewhat okish reads, survived until mis-elim'd in xylo

mini normal 2154

Spoiler:

replaced in n1, was an IC, was shot n2

[the worst]

yeah same here. i'm super stoked to see what he does with this meta. scum keep asking me for recent games lately and i give it to them and they're like "oh.. i got busy, lol " as though i don't spend half an hour assembling all the links!

[the worst]

Looking at lengthy links.

why are you doing this? in as much detail as possible please.

[the worst]

what are your findings or expected specific findings?

[the worst]

VOTE: Redados

One part of that post vibes really heavily with me. I guess I agree with some other parts superficially but like: not much is happening.

[the worst]

don't say i didn't warn you. it is pretty interesting, just. my god. my eyes.
any observations so far you can use in this game? what specifically are you looking for?

[the worst]

allowing that i've had to do none of those things in this game: how does that impact on your read on me here?

[the worst]

i'd agree with her assessment that i prefer scum to town yeah, and sadly i don't really think cold meta is very helpful.

who's scum?

[the worst]

that gif is a huge mood.


this is my kinda default/go-to avi

pedit: mm i kinda think egix is town.
i could go for a blueb elimination but i still have no read on her
but maybe the fact i have no read on her and i can't get a read on her and her reads aren't developing and she's resorted to responding in abstract poetry is a sign we should just kill her and move on since she probably can't be sorted by night actions anymore
mmmmmm
it's policyey

[the worst]

nah not really
i'm starting to think sati is town again, just haven't decided where to move my vote and i'm pleased wagons are happening.

idrk what my read on you is, i think you're kinda, like, you could go either way when you're talking about the game and i'm pleased you reached the point of realising talking about things is a lot more useful than cold meta

[the worst]

oh yeah I'm voting you. hmm. want to vote blue?

[the worst]

VOTE: blue yeet.

[the worst]

That post made me grin at the bus stop >_> that's just mean
I do feel like you're flattering me rather than trying to sort my alignment though~

[the worst]

getting a tone read on cute players can be pretty perplexing. if you're struggling with tone, what is your strongest read based on sheer play here and could you talk me through how you got to it?

sorry this might feel kinda like playstyle-oppressive. I enjoy reading your posts but it's really perplexing trying to double down on a read of you.

[the worst]

I'm repeating myself and trying a different way of getting through. I guess I should be saying "scumcase me, coward" or something.

[the worst]

I don't tend to see a lot of value in pocketing the player I am wagoning and sincerely talking about policy eliminating, NK15. get some antihistamines, your nose is blocked.

[the worst]

I expected to see a large jump in posting rate from a scum!egix around that time but I did not. The quality of posts have improved in that time.

i agree with this generally - egix hasn't gotten more performative, but he has gotten more solvey.

[the worst]

no no i see what's up.

VOTE: NK15

[the worst]

changed my mind over the last 3/4 of the game
his like, entire playstyle and the way he pushes things are scummy in a surface way

his sati scumread felt sincere d1 but he legit didn't react to the turn against sati (like the plist swung against his #1 scumread) except for posturing me as a potential partner (?) and his scumread on me appears to be because i failed to use adequate deodorant. which is absolutely false, i smell lovely.

his reads aren't changing or developing and since throwing down the original sati scumread i haven't really felt like he's reacting to the things people are doing in a way that indicates he believes his reads, if that makes sense?

[the worst]

Nk15 claim

[the worst]

NK15 is only confirmable town if we get a scum roleblocker flip, otherwise he's essentially a vt claim. he's also claiming to have been blocked last night.

obviously if there are any ccs just lolhammer.

I have vertigo so don't really feel like doing any critical thinking. I'll be around a bunch before deadline.

[the worst]

I would rather not switch to me.

[the worst]

call me unenthusiastic about your suggested alternative. I'm also a little lukewarm about eliminating you, which means I need to decide where to vanity vote which I'm not really interested in doing when I still think nk15 is scum and my head feels like it's full of bees.

lmk if you have any questions.

[the worst]

In terms of like sheer probability there's a better chance of nk15 just being scum with a crap fakeclaim than actually being the town tracker who was correctly roleblocked by the scum roleblocker on n1 but probabilities aren't like..super pertinent. I mean I think he's scum anyway and just bit back the temptation to fake cc him because this is a newbie game and I'm town and not mean.

[the worst]

just bit back the temptation to fake cc him because this is a newbie game and I'm town and not mean.

LAMIST

Yeah. I'm town. What of it?

[the worst]

That math is right where my head was when I was second guessing myself earlier.

@TW do you have a sentence or two in you about my thoughts on your D2 entry / lack of reflection?

I don't really understand what this is asking.

[the worst]

BS. If they survive that one you pocket them(and because of the nature of the pocket it is less likely to be caught), else you get a miselim. Win-win.

...while not bothering slots who are actually going to be alive later in the game?

sure, seems like a good use of my limited energy. pfffft

[the worst]

It's almost like the chance of the town tracker being blocked on n1 with an outed jk is PHENOMENALLY LOW or something!

[the worst]

I felt sincere about shelly being scum. So did you. She was using skills from her scum toolkit. You saw it too. Our failure to evaluate in time is a towntell, not a scumtell.

Arthur was scummy and responded to being wagoned by....not progressing his reads, and complaining that people were posting too much. That kind of player with a town role pm is a distraction and needs to die before endgame. I don't regret that elim.

D1/N1ended with both of the slots I thought were scum flipping green. Why would I hark on about where I went wrong during the middle of a game when I have 6 people to sort? I like re-evaluation and self-awareness but that feels like a colossal waste of time.

[the worst]

Scum with a roleblocker are not incentivised to kill the jailkeeper on night one. If their roleblocker dies, the tracker is a de facto alignment cop and the jailkeeper is stronger than a cop. It's in their best interest to only shoot the claimed tpr and hunt for the unclaimed one.

What's more, roleblocking off the jailkeeper is utterly insane because it stops them from making the NK. If they shoot at anyone else, the jk has a 2/7 chance of stopping the NK.

It's a shot from a column C scumteam about 55-60% of the time but expecting us to believe he was roleblocked n1 is well below that 40-45% probability range. This is a scum fakeclaim misplay. Simple as that.

[the worst]

I can't tell if I'm still dizzy or if it just feels really weird advocating for an elim on a claimed tpr in a newbie game but I also don't think I'm wrong. can people please fact check me on this

[the worst]

I think the scenario Not Known is describing looks like this:

1. Shelly claims JK
   
2. Arthur flips green.
3. Shelly gets blocked by the Roleblocker so she can't luck into jailing her would-be killer.
4. Tracker!NK tracks me--his top scum read. He doesn't need to track Shelly because there was no counterclaim and he knows the setup includes JK.
5. Shelly puts Tracker!NK in jail blocking him. NK reminded her that she was the likely night kill target so she would have to lock up scum to save herself. TW was her obvious scum read so scum!TW probably wouldn't make the deathblow, so she went for another.
6. Shelly gets stabbed.

Is this the scenario you are commenting on @TW?

I think you're right, I'm just trying to follow this all the way out to make sure.

Except shelly explicitly can't be roleblocked because nk15 is claiming no result.

[the worst]

roleblocking off the jailkeeper

By "off the jailkeeper" you mean roleblocking anybody other than the jailkeeper, right?

Yeah.

[the worst]

I think there's decent odds that this is a fakeclaim that just got a bit too greedy with trying to deny town info (says it was blocked to limit town knowledge)?

Jailkeeper + Tracker implies that there is a Roleblocker. The world in which the Roleblocker

doesn't

target the Jailkeeper is... really exceptionally greedy by scum. The world where shelly successfully blocks the kill at night is basically auto-lose for scum. Small chances of

instantly losing

are generally not worth taking. So we assume that in this world Roleblocker blocks shelly... but then there's nobody to block NK15 on Night 1.

I think the worst v. NK15 is

definitely

TvS.

Given its a mechanical dispute and NK15 is the only one claiming mechanical privilege id actually say calling TvS is pretty greedy. If we're in col. C I would certainly bus nk15 if he slipped up and made this claim. I think what you want to say is that you think this makes NK15 scum and possibly by extension believe that I believe this?

[the worst]

Wait, what about the possibility of shelly jailing Not Known. I think that's what he's proposing here.

Except this would require shelly not being roleblocked, which is like

fairly wild

[the worst]

There's no need to post intent given he's claimed. There's been no cc, so don't expect to see any non-VT claims.
Ngl I don't think I'll trust nk15 in this game again unless we actually got a scum roleblocker flip, so I'm not sad to see a hammer fall.

[the worst]

Oh boooooy I am glad that went well

[the worst]

Hm. I wonder why that was a Satisfaction NK, instead of me or the worst.

I don't get why you would think you would die.

But yes, it is skeeving me out a little bit that the scum would kill the less experienced player first between Satis and tw, considering that I would say they were both the same level of spewed clear.

ottomh, probably because Sati has been substantially more engaged with this game than I have, and because people get paranoid of townspewed experienced players.

the partner is not going to be easy to solve. I don't townread any of you.

[the worst]

OH Sati is also like very spewed town. That D1 push from nk15 was a whole thing.

[the worst]

i want bluebells to be town because i like her posting style but i keep forgetting why i keep not-scumreading her

[the worst]

VOTE: blue

[the worst]

I keep giving her passes. It's more of a "hey this could possibly conceivably be town and I like her style". rereading in isolation there's nothing in her play which I feel is hard to fake as scum - if she is town and reaches f3 I think I'm just going to end up voting her anyway.

[the worst]

Does scum!Bluebell nightkill Satisfaction?

does she not?

[the worst]

For the record, I am not flinching and would be more interested in Egix and Redados explaining WHY they aren't declaring intent.

[the worst]

It's pretty hard for me to answer that without attempting to assign motivation to your actions, which is a bad faith position for me to take.

Let's swing it another way - why did you unvote satisfaction at that point but not vote anyone else? Where was your mind at?

[the worst]

I am the lisping Sicilian and wine is all around

So YOU kidnapped the princess!

Perhaps they purposefully spew with the scumbuddy to survive the slaughter.

What makes you think this - and in this event, who would the scumbuddy be?
I have a fairly detailed opinion about this, so I'd be keen to talk about it some more.

[the worst]

We have less than 72 hours left. If anyone isn't comfortable with reliably checking in closer to deadline, I'm happy to unvote so that they can vote and I can hammer.

[the worst]

cool, cool
i'm just mindful that blue seems to log in semi-irregularly; time is ticking

[the worst]

UNVOTE: sure.

[the worst]

well, frankly:

NK15 attempted the "safe" town power role claim for setup C2 (in reality we're Jk + VTs vs. 2 goons; there's no way to "disprove" the existence of a tracker until postgame, unless you are an absolutely crazy duck with a migraine who has exactly zero time for nonsense). It can also then continuously claim roleblocked, because there is no way to then prove the existence of a roleblocker since there is no roleblocker to ever flip in the setup~!

I know that he botched the claim, but I don't think that NK15 realised that he botched the claim. The way he came out of the floodgates like "I am the other TPR you fools, kill the duck!" to me *very* much looks like a mindset of someone who thinks they will survive the phase and get through their mis-elim of choice.

so like tbqh I have no idea who you're trying to posture as NK15's distanced partner anyway, and I'm not sure you know who you're looking for either if you're town, but I'd actually argue I don't think NK15 realised he was going down and therefore he was unlikely to play the distancing card over just surviving together.

[the worst]

in which order did you come up with those theories and how is the Mundivore one more valid than the others?

[the worst]

in which order did you come up with those theories and how is the Mundivore one more valid than the others?

Just quoting this in case you're town but I increasingly feel like your reads just aren't real.

It's 4am here, I'll hammer when I wake back up.

[the worst]

I'll be around.

[the worst]

For what it's worth I definitely think that's the case - if this is your scumgame I think there was better equity in NK15 surviving til endgame, if this is your towngame then....yeah like this could be sincere, but there isn't a lot in your iso which I think would be particularly hard for scum to fake, it that makes sense.

A big part of me wants you to be town because I enjoy your poetic turn of phrase but if you are town and we elim'd someone else today I'm pretty sure you'd still be here in f3 and I'm not sure you'd be any easier to sort then

Thank you for the swan song nonetheless. If we're wrong on you, I'm sure whoever remains shall avenge you. o7

VOTE: Bluebell

[the worst]

ayy congrats guys! I didn't have a real read on how I would've vote there, but based on half assed rereading it was "probably not Redados"

just gonna take a learning moment to say -- be soooooo careful about what we did this game. eliminating town power roles in semi open setups. there are a lot of situations where they are literally confirmable, and a lot more situations where scum are incentivised to nightkill them. NK15 really seriously lucked out with the way his claim went down.

Don't fret Red, you played well.

[the worst]

the worst - well played and sorry that I didn't read the games that you spent time putting together. I was terrified of you. We will definitely play together again soon.

Thank you so much It was a pleasure.

No worries re. not reading my games; the whole "scum keep asking me to waste my time assembling games!! rawr" persona was definitely an act to see if you started to sweat. asking for meta comes from both sides - scum busywork, and from town who don't know what part of the game to analyse next - so it's always helpful IME to assume that it's coming from scum until you see it develop into something meaningful. That may be something to keep an eye on, in the future.

The meta angle can be really useful. But if games are outliers (e.g. this game was fairly slow and analytical with quite a few replacements), it can be pretty hard to draw valuable meta conclusions until pretty late in the game.

This tidbit is probably more handy for town than for scum, but meh, hopefully it helps somewhat. sometimes rather than trying to do a cold meta dive, it can be pretty interesting to drill people for what they see in themselves - or what they see in the reflection of your read on them. if you're not sure what exactly to look for in a meta dive, this can help generate content within the game itself.

Wild freeform example dialogue is like, "duck. fam. you have too many posts and I don't have a read on you. how do you expect me to correct this nullread, you fluffposting scumbutt?!". obviously in your own words, and adapted to context - but hopefully you can see what I mean. even if you're unlikely to get a sincere meta analysis from me, it relieves you from doing the meta dive and puts me in a position where I have to raise the bar of the conversation in a dialogue which is pretty challenging for me to respond to. win/win!


as an aside - I'm glad to hear I was scary! I like to think that as long as I'm scaring newbies, I'm doing something right... Or maybe that's just my Hallowe'en spirit speaking... I digress - very much looking forward to playing with you again, too.

[the worst]

If you felt that the flavor/story was a distraction, please let me know, and I'll think about telling an image-story next time.

On the contrary, I really liked the story!

Thank you for modding - you were amazing as always. I doubt I'll ever forget that you were the mod of my first on-site game, and it's so cool to me that newbies 3 years later are able to have their debut in your games.

[the worst]

being less verbal and less cheesy for a sec

Well I did mostly just cuz she tunneled my slot which I knew was vt

eh

I think I can see scum!the worst playing like this

yeeet

[the worst]

I agree with what NK15 is saying about NKA (night kill analysis) - sometimes there is a great place for it. Other times, there really isn't. In this game, there was no way we could have deduced scum via NKA. the kills were tpr > spewed town > spewed town, just leaving the optimal confusing xylo.

I think the point fferyllt is making, is a bit different. There is a classic suggestion that you should always vote your townread in xylo. But I don't think that's what fferyllt is saying either. She's just saying, entering xylo is an experience. The game goes from "ok let's solve this sucker" to "oh no, scum think they can win this phase which I am alive in". And that's not necessarily a question of "why have they kept me alive?", so much as a question of "should I be voting for someone superficially scummy, or should I be hunting for someone who thinks they need me alive to win the game / someone who is convinced that i will not vote for them in this phase".

I take being invited into xylo as an opportunity to reset my reads and consider who is "winning" the gamestate, rather than explicitly an opportunity to turn on my townreads.

I hope I'm making sense I feel long-winded

[the worst]

That's the way I was reading your suggestion, yeah. I do think this was a particularly hard f3 for town to win. But it serves as a great lesson, always.