Newbie 2038: Elements [Game Over]

[72offsuit]

First

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VOTE: AGamblingPig

Already buddying me with their username

[72offsuit]

You've got to know when to hold 'em
Know when to fold 'em
Know when to walk away
And know when to run

[72offsuit]

Protip: Steer clear of Dihydrogen oxide. Nasty chemical that is implicated in a lot of deaths around the world

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Why?

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Is

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It

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Bad

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to spam the thread?

[72offsuit]

Hi, I suck at this game. I'm playing a newbie cos I keep getting over stressed in other queues and struggling to get through them.

Mafia can be stressful. I feel sometimes I have to remind myself thats its all for fun, particularly when things get heated.

[72offsuit]

VOTE: 72offsuit

No need to spam the thread, we can already see you're here!

Y and W effectively function as vowels in Polish.

[72offsuit]

It's pronounced "c4e5g3d5", hope that clears it up.

Please kindly get an avatar. It helps a lot with keeping a track of the thread when you are skimming though, by aiding in identifying others' posts at a glance

[72offsuit]

A trio of questions.


For everyone, what's your experience with mafia?

I've been into social deduction games for a while. I've played in about 8 games on site over 4 years but gotten burnt out a lot due to stress/mental health. I'm love modding and think I'm good at mechanical stuff and picking up theory quickly, but I suck at the social and emotional side and I've decided to play out my remaining newbie games before I go back to other queues.


@72offsuit, get called out for spamming a lot? Seemed like a bit of a sensitive response there


@c4e5g3d5, could you answer 72 asking why spam is bad, been as you vote him for it after he asked, please

(I have my own thoughts as to why spamming bad but want to hear this first)

1. Played about 10 games on this site. Dozens of games on EpicMafia years ago. No games IRL. I enjoy all sorts of hidden role/identity games. I enjoy both deducing and bluffing.

2. No. You can easily have a read through my other games. Just click my name, then search user's topics or posts.

[72offsuit]

I hate to do this, but I have to VOTE: Hunter

Hunting is violent and I don't like violence.

If you're scum I expect a pacifist game then

If scum elect to no kill, we know who is scum

[72offsuit]

Why?

(...)

to spam the thread?

Not only is it annoying, but perhaps more importantly, it wastes thread space and is generally just bad forum etiquette.

VOTE: 72offsuit

No need to spam the thread, we can already see you're here!

Y and W effectively function as vowels in Polish.

Close.

For everyone, what's your experience with mafia?

*Checks own page quickly*

I count about 40 games played on MS. That doesn't include any from other sites though.

Egix. I've played with you before. Do you actually think I'm a spammer?

[72offsuit]

Plus if that response to being asked not to spam was just shitposting instead of actual frustration then I don't think it's +town any more.

It was shitposting. I'm really not sure why you read it as frustration.

[72offsuit]

2. No. You can easily have a read through my other games. Just click my name, then search user's topics or posts.

I did go and look at your games. I determined you post a lot and mentioned it in thread. Reading through to see if you've been called out for spamming is a lot more effort when I can just ask you? Plus I'd like to interact with you cos that's how sorting goes

Also if you'd read my own answer for experience you could probably have guessed that I could find out other peoples games even if you never reached the post where I said I had looked at yours.

This response kinda bugs me. It feels like you are brushing me off while being a "helpful SE" instead of actually engaging with what I was doing.

And had i responded differently, in what way was your question designed to determine my alignment?

[72offsuit]

hunterr feels like he voted something he thought would be easy and other people were already expressing thoughts about. It's light but VOTE: hunterr

Because this is more important to address. I also don't play aggressive in RVS, but you said that you did. If someone is apathetic about the game I would expect someone that supposedly plays "aggressive" to target them.

You can address both at the same time though?

And I did target him, I questioned him, got responses, and came to a conclusion based on the tone of those responses, which I then shared.

@cylstar, any reason you decided not to vote?

it really is as simple as not being sure of how to vote.
VOTE: c4e5g3d5?

And the follow up is now you are voting, why are you voting there? Do you have any thoughts about what me and hunterr have had to say about c4?

There is something about this dual post that pings me.
The "and the follow up" phrasing makes me feel like your post was just an afterthought, rather than the goal of your posts.

[72offsuit]

Feels quite LAMISTY overall too

VOTE: Mizzytastic

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Mizzy vs 72 in posts 61-69 feels passive-aggressive from both sides, more from Mizzy especially in post 69.

And the significance of your passive aggressive vibe is.........?

[72offsuit]

Mizzy vs 72 in posts 61-69 feels passive-aggressive from both sides, more from Mizzy especially in post 69.

I can't talk for 72 but I felt like his response was being unhelpful masquerading as 'SE help' and I felt a bit talked down to, considering if he's responding to my questions he's read my post about my experience and should be able to guess I can find other people's games. Combined with feeling grotty in general I can totally imagine coming across that way.

I could vote cyl or Bipolar right now. I wanna hear from them both before hand though.

hunterr's unvote is making me move him back towards town. Its easy to unvote at E-1 early for town points but his reasoning beyond that felt genuine to me

1. Your use if the word masquerading implies im not acting in good faith... IE: i have an alterior motive, which only scum has.
Yet you dont put me in among ur 'ppl u want to vote' pool

[72offsuit]

I could vote cyl or Bipolar right now. I wanna hear from them both before hand though.

hunterr's unvote is making me move him back towards town. Its easy to unvote at E-1 early for town points but his reasoning beyond that felt genuine to me

This feels like classic newbscum.

Mindset preoccupied with people earning town points, because thats what Mazzy themself are trying to do as scum - trying to appear town.

[72offsuit]

This feels like classic newbscum.

Mindset preoccupied with people earning town points, because thats what Mazzy themself are trying to do as scum - trying to appear town.

Are you seriously saying the only reason

I could be considering whether or not someone is trying to look town is because I am doing that myself? And not cos we are trying to find the people trying to look


If anything I would say this is defensive ++

[72offsuit]

I'm only voting them because they haven't posted that much.

If you HAD to kick someone RIGHT NOW, who would you kick?

[72offsuit]

muh316 -- hmmm

hmmm

Got anything to add to the game?

What's your read on hunter?

[72offsuit]

ISOs:

Bipolar -- Nothing particularly telling yet IMO
AGamblingPig -- His only real read so far is his Bipolar read and it's basically a toneread so I don't feel like I can say much here yet.
Mizzy -- Tunneling someone in a vacuum is generally NAI and avoiding tunneling someone is good but Mizzy's treatment of cyl is horribly inconsistent with Mizzy's treatment of me.
hunterr -- Initial vote on me reads as obligatory contribution based on the only thing he can find to talk about. Eventually he gives an actual reason with original thought though so that's nice.
c4 -- Can't read this guy at all
cyl -- Looks like he's genuinely trying to figure out the game.
72 -- Beyond the spam he's doing a good job of being a newbie-stimulating SE.
muh316 -- hmmm
Egix -- See 72 but less so because of the relative shortage of posts.

@Bipolar, what do you think of this reads list?

[72offsuit]

VOTE: muh

Lights are on but no one's home?

I'm working from home, but works been pretty busy. It's friday so I finally have some time to read through this
Also, looks like you're home but haven't seen any thoughts from you. You only have a single RVS vote and then voted me for inactivity. Your ISO is just questions, and not much else. Which is hypocritical of me but something I want to point out.

muh316 -- hmmm

hmmm

Got anything to add to the game?

What's your read on hunter?

Why are you specifically asking me about hunter? Him and I haven't had any direct interaction. And you and hunter haven't had any significant interaction either. Are you scumreading Hunter?

Id like u to tell me ur read on hunter before i taint it with any thing I say.

You dodging my question and responding to my question with a question doesnt give me good vibes about your slot.

[72offsuit]

VOTE: muh

Lights are on but no one's home?

I'm working from home, but works been pretty busy. It's friday so I finally have some time to read through this
Also, looks like you're home but haven't seen any thoughts from you. You only have a single RVS vote and then voted me for inactivity. Your ISO is just questions, and not much else. Which is hypocritical of me but something I want to point out.

muh316 -- hmmm

hmmm

Got anything to add to the game?

What's your read on hunter?

Why are you specifically asking me about hunter? Him and I haven't had any direct interaction. And you and hunter haven't had any significant interaction either. Are you scumreading Hunter?

Why are you so preoccupied about interaction?

All i did was ask you for a read on hunter.

If you are town, from your point of view, I have a 75% chance of being town.

So my suggestion is that you cooperate and work with me, and work on the assumption that I am working in good faith as a starting point.

[72offsuit]

muh316 -- hmmm

hmmm

Got anything to add to the game?

What's your read on hunter?

Strange that you're asking for a specific read from someone pretty much AFK, why are you afraid to step forwards?

I'm trying to elicit some AI-indicative posts from a lurker, theres nothing "strange" about my post.

[72offsuit]

VOTE: muh

Lights are on but no one's home?

2 posts in a row you're asking more from muh but you haven't provided anything of value so far, are you posting just for the sake of posting?

That specific post was, yes, though that's only because there wasn't anything I found noteworthy since my previous post.
Now that my MU game has ended, I should be able to get into this one more.

Join me on the Mizzy wagon and let the "noteworthy" posts sally forth.

[72offsuit]

Sorry for post spam, but when I reply I find it easier to manage one reply at a time.

My reads in no particular order

Neutral:
Everyone not listed below

Leaning Scum:
72OffSuit - For constantly nagging me
Egix - For lurking just as much as I am but still remaining mostly under the radar
Cylstar - Scum vibes from the Mizzy buddying. Also just as inactive as I am but not getting the same treatment as me.

I would vote 72 because OMGUS. But that won't gain much traction anyway, so I'll UNVOTE: C4and VOTE: Cylstar

This just sounds to me like you are keen to vote whoever you think will get wagoned

[72offsuit]

SO now I'm going toVOTE: Muh316. He said last night that he was going to start participating more but since then has 4 posts none of which have any real game content besides refusing, repeatedly to give a read on hunterr when asked by 72. His posts read more like prod dodging, which could be scummy to avoid attention

If I was prod dodging I would have stopped at a single post and kept myself under the radar. I would have probably also answered 72's question to get him off my back so I can keep lurking like Egix.

Preoccupied with how others are or may be reading his slot - scum mindset - survivalism over scumhunting.

[72offsuit]

Haven't interacted with anyone so a readlist is a bit difficult.

Town:
Cyl
Mizzy,
Hunter
C4

Neutral:
AGamblingPig
Egix
72
Muh



Noone is asking for you to pin scum, but to not be able to at least put 1 player in the 'scummy' bin is a bit concerning.
Not confident enough to actually call someone scum yet so won't be voting just now. I'll wait a page or two to get a better feel for the game.

[72offsuit]

Preoccupied with how others are or may be reading his slot - scum mindset - survivalism over scumhunting.

I need to defend myself if I’m getting voted, right?

I've found it much more effective regardless of my alignment to ignore attacks against myself and simply focus on pushing who i think is scum or when scum, pushing someone who looks scummy.
95% of the time the resopnse you give doesnt satisfy the attacking player anyway

[72offsuit]

Unless you can eloquently piece together logical holes in a scumread on yourself

[72offsuit]

I've been in bed with a headache most of today and I'm busy the next 4 hours so I've only really skimmed. I'll try and catch up before bed depending on how tired I feel. This is the stuff that stood out to me on a skim.


Based on the vote count at the top of the page (I know it's changed since), I would be very surprised if all 4 of those 2-vote wagons are on town. Scum have 4 different players to pick from there and it feels odd to me that they'd pick in a way that produces that split. It also makes JDye's decision note to vote his lowest read feel like it's less scummy unless muh-JDye is exactly the team. It's SO easy for scum to vote there, as a replacement coming in with new perspectives onto a player the momentum of the day is turning against. Not that I like the no voting, especially when it's leaving the old vote instead of an actual unvote.

Activity isn't necessarily an alignment tell. For Egix at least I can say I've seen them be low activity as town, and in a mish mash game I ran as a scum role that is specifically trying to look as town as possible (instead of town enough to get someone else elimmed). I might have read a game he was in as scum, but I don't remember one and I've definitely not been involved in one.

@muh - I wasn't talking about anyone specifically with my question about scum intent for the way you've lurked, just the general feel from the game as a whole turning in your direction. You were a good policy elim if that activity level continued but a policy elim in general is a last resort or a "oh god I don't want this in ELo".

My thoughts were people seemed to be scum reading you for it, and if you are strategically lurking as scum (as opposed to, y'know, busy) and you have a choice to pull yourself up when you get pressured, you do. You have to be genuinely busy or very confident in being able to pull off TSTBS otherwise.

However, no one feels town enough to you to even give a slight lean?

@AGamblingPig - that's a weird way to phrase something about a group of 3 you are included in. Why do you think that?

I'm a lowposter in general, really. But yeah, in the Secret H game I had no idea what to say most of the time :/

I've played with !scum and !town egix. Low energy, low posting for both alignments. Not particularly aggressive either.

[72offsuit]

@muh - I wasn't talking about anyone specifically with my question about scum intent for the way you've lurked, just the general feel from the game as a whole turning in your direction. You were a good policy elim if that activity level continued but a policy elim in general is a last resort or a "oh god I don't want this in ELo".

My thoughts were people seemed to be scum reading you for it, and if you are strategically lurking as scum (as opposed to, y'know, busy) and you have a choice to pull yourself up when you get pressured, you do. You have to be genuinely busy or very confident in being able to pull off TSTBS otherwise.

Whats TSTBS mean? Also, would you have pushed to policy eliminate me if we were approaching deadline?

Too scummy to be scum.
I've also heard the term 'power wolfing', which I believe is along the same lines. Basically scum taking the reigns and being pretty pushy and aggressive, rather than hiding and trying to meld with the sheep.

[72offsuit]

Ok... so here are some initial thoughts...

Page 1

- RVS was RVS. I don't think anyone was being serious getting on 72 spamming the thread, seemed pretty arbitrary. I don't think 72 was getting particularly annoyed by getting called out either, seemed a pretty tongue in cheek response to me. I read nothing AI on this page.

Page 2

The Mizzy-C4 (Chess moves - yeah - the English - c4 e5 g3 d5) exchange I think was Mizzy just trying to drag this game quickly out of RVS and c4 still wanting to goof off. Still nothing particularly AI, imo. In other words, I disagree with Mizzy:

I think c4's response is +town (not worried about defending self, comfortable with rvs being a good enough reason).

I took a peek at some of 72's games and he seems to post a lot. I think activity is NAI and spam is anti-town in general but his reaction to being called on it feels +town. Scum are less comfy expressing that sort of frustration.

I don't think you can make a read on c4 up to this point and I don't think 72 was reacting adversely to the spamming thing... I think he was making a joke. I digress.

I'm going to keep my opinion of the hunterr-Mizzy interaction to myself for now... not sure how much it would help seeing as I subbed for hunterr...

Page 3

- So for me 72 voting Mizzy for the overall LAMIST feel seems like 72 is just annoyed at Mizzy misinterpreting 72's responses.

Page 4

-

I could vote cyl or Bipolar right now. I wanna hear from them both before hand though.

hunterr's unvote is making me move him back towards town. Its easy to unvote at E-1 early for town points but his reasoning beyond that felt genuine to me

This feels like classic newbscum.

Mindset preoccupied with people earning town points, because thats what Mazzy themself are trying to do as scum - trying to appear town.

I don't know 72... Mizzy is being a spaz but this is the second time you warned them about this and they haven't stopped yet. Seems like you are pulling an SE card with the "classic newbscum" quip. I mean we're just impressionable noobs, right?

Page 5

The 72 - Mizzy exchange just makes me scumread 72 more and more...

Page 6

Muh appears! I mean being generally inactive is not good for town I am told. But I don't know if this is an IRL busy thing or if the 72-muh interaction on p.6 are scum trying put some distance between them.

Again I'll stay away from the hunterr posts...

Page 7

Join me on the Mizzy wagon and let the "noteworthy" posts sally forth.

Man... it might be time to check my confirmation bias here...

Page 8

Welcome JDye (shouldn't he be welcoming me?)! So lots going on here for me. I think the JDye entrance clarified some of my reads... more on that below...

So in general my current in no particular order are:

townreads (for now)
JDye
cyl
c4

Mizzy... I do townread them but I don't necessarily agree with their vote analysis that there is at least 1 scum on the original c4 E-1 wagon or that one of the 4 2-vote wagons on page 8 have scum. I think its equally as plausible that scum isn't in either of these groups. However I don't think they are LAMIST... while I don't wish anyone to be sick... I do think Mizzy has been an easier to deal with since taking the paracetemol... they were just all over the place... it was too much noise.

Muh is neutral for me... I could entertain a 72/muh scum team... but I could just as easily see muh as IRL busy and the activity until page 8 as NAI.

Egix - also neutral... although it does strike me as plausible that both scum are low activity SE's

GPig - no read at all... again not sure if the activity is AI or not... I suppose I'll eventually learn to read folks like this

72off- right now my scumread... but (how's this for a poker analogy) I'm either way ahead or way behind on this read... What I mean is that I can't figure out why he is continuing to drum up a train on Mizzy... I just think it too obvious for it to be a scumplay... is that what TSTBS means? Too scummy to be scum... but perhaps thats the ploy? ahhh... I have to go to bed...

UNVOTE: cyl VOTE: 72offsuit

See you all tomorrow... I'll drop by on my lunch break.

"I took a peek at some of 72's games and he seems to post a lot."
This feels like super shallow, low effort commentary on meta, disguised as trying to be helpful.

" The 72 - Mizzy exchange just makes me scumread 72 more and more..."

@ safebet:

1. What specifically did you find that made you "scumread 72 more and more" on page 5?

2. On a scale of 1-100, how strongly do you think I scumread Mizzy?

[72offsuit]

Ok... so here are some initial thoughts...

Page 1

- RVS was RVS. I don't think anyone was being serious getting on 72 spamming the thread, seemed pretty arbitrary. I don't think 72 was getting particularly annoyed by getting called out either, seemed a pretty tongue in cheek response to me. I read nothing AI on this page.

Page 2

The Mizzy-C4 (Chess moves - yeah - the English - c4 e5 g3 d5) exchange I think was Mizzy just trying to drag this game quickly out of RVS and c4 still wanting to goof off. Still nothing particularly AI, imo. In other words, I disagree with Mizzy:

I think c4's response is +town (not worried about defending self, comfortable with rvs being a good enough reason).

I took a peek at some of 72's games and he seems to post a lot. I think activity is NAI and spam is anti-town in general but his reaction to being called on it feels +town. Scum are less comfy expressing that sort of frustration.

I don't think you can make a read on c4 up to this point and I don't think 72 was reacting adversely to the spamming thing... I think he was making a joke. I digress.

I'm going to keep my opinion of the hunterr-Mizzy interaction to myself for now... not sure how much it would help seeing as I subbed for hunterr...

Page 3

- So for me 72 voting Mizzy for the overall LAMIST feel seems like 72 is just annoyed at Mizzy misinterpreting 72's responses.

Page 4

-

I could vote cyl or Bipolar right now. I wanna hear from them both before hand though.

hunterr's unvote is making me move him back towards town. Its easy to unvote at E-1 early for town points but his reasoning beyond that felt genuine to me

This feels like classic newbscum.

Mindset preoccupied with people earning town points, because thats what Mazzy themself are trying to do as scum - trying to appear town.

I don't know 72... Mizzy is being a spaz but this is the second time you warned them about this and they haven't stopped yet. Seems like you are pulling an SE card with the "classic newbscum" quip. I mean we're just impressionable noobs, right?

Page 5

The 72 - Mizzy exchange just makes me scumread 72 more and more...

Page 6

Muh appears! I mean being generally inactive is not good for town I am told. But I don't know if this is an IRL busy thing or if the 72-muh interaction on p.6 are scum trying put some distance between them.

Again I'll stay away from the hunterr posts...

Page 7

Join me on the Mizzy wagon and let the "noteworthy" posts sally forth.

Man... it might be time to check my confirmation bias here...

Page 8

Welcome JDye (shouldn't he be welcoming me?)! So lots going on here for me. I think the JDye entrance clarified some of my reads... more on that below...

So in general my current in no particular order are:

townreads (for now)
JDye
cyl
c4

Mizzy... I do townread them but I don't necessarily agree with their vote analysis that there is at least 1 scum on the original c4 E-1 wagon or that one of the 4 2-vote wagons on page 8 have scum. I think its equally as plausible that scum isn't in either of these groups. However I don't think they are LAMIST... while I don't wish anyone to be sick... I do think Mizzy has been an easier to deal with since taking the paracetemol... they were just all over the place... it was too much noise.

Muh is neutral for me... I could entertain a 72/muh scum team... but I could just as easily see muh as IRL busy and the activity until page 8 as NAI.

Egix - also neutral... although it does strike me as plausible that both scum are low activity SE's

GPig - no read at all... again not sure if the activity is AI or not... I suppose I'll eventually learn to read folks like this

72off- right now my scumread... but (how's this for a poker analogy) I'm either way ahead or way behind on this read... What I mean is that I can't figure out why he is continuing to drum up a train on Mizzy... I just think it too obvious for it to be a scumplay... is that what TSTBS means? Too scummy to be scum... but perhaps thats the ploy? ahhh... I have to go to bed...

UNVOTE: cyl VOTE: 72offsuit

See you all tomorrow... I'll drop by on my lunch break.

"I took a peek at some of 72's games and he seems to post a lot."
This feels like super shallow, low effort commentary on meta, disguised as trying to be helpful.

" The 72 - Mizzy exchange just makes me scumread 72 more and more..."

@ safebet:

1. What specifically did you find that made you "scumread 72 more and more" on page 5?

2. On a scale of 1-100, how strongly do you think I scumread Mizzy?

[72offsuit]

Sry dble post.

[72offsuit]

@c4, i know you posted a readslist earlier. What's your updated read of the hunter/safebet slot?

[72offsuit]

Will catch up later today.

[72offsuit]

Guess i lied. Spent ages on my other game. Will have to b tomorrow

[72offsuit]

Here.

[72offsuit]

19 posts in 1 day.
Town apathy.
Easy scum win.

[72offsuit]

I don't have any defense for my posting so far other than I haven't played text mafia in close to a decade and am super rusty when it comes to developing reads. Your thorough analysis from you first post does make me feel better about removing my vote from Bipolar. My read on them was admittedly weak.

Based on how I'd been following the thread my next target was 72, but having read him in isolation I'm now convinced my sketch read on him was just gas.

SO now I'm going toVOTE: Muh316. He said last night that he was going to start participating more but since then has 4 posts none of which have any real game content besides refusing, repeatedly to give a read on hunterr when asked by 72. His posts read more like prod dodging, which could be scummy to avoid attention

This post is scummy +++


1. The write-off of his gut-scum-vibe on me as being "just gas" is horrible. It doesnt fit a town mindset to build pressure. The "just gas" deflates pressure on a player (myself).
I think !townPig would be much more likely to give more time to let his gutread play out over several more pages/posts, rather than give the read away so early.

2. The vote on muh feels like scum opportunistically voting for low hanging fruit. I'd say muh is just the punching bag low-hanging fruit town jester.
The transition of Pig from gut-scum-reading me to dismissing that and then voting for muh fits !scumPig agenda.

[72offsuit]

Looking at the player list, the people who haven't had a significant positive impression on me at any point are muh, Egix and AGamblingPig.

I wouldn't be surprised if 2 of them are scum.

Agree with Mizzy that this is lazy low effort scum sort of post. I think its a scumslip.
I made the SAME SCUMSLIP in Newbie 1986.

viewtopic.php?p=11612403#p11612403

See Natsu's post 273.

He basically catches me, but doesnt really link it as the post being lazy-scum-me




Here it is for those who cbf going to that game: (I'm scum replacing in for scumNavneet. TSE and NAtsu are both town)

Post 138 by TSE (who i fake scumread)
I think I’m good with lynching within Navneet/Volxen/GB.


In post 234, 72offsuit wrote:
p138: don't feel much townie motivation coming from this post. Just a random lynch pool.
If TSE flips scum, I would hazard a guess that 1 of these 3 is scum with him.


Natsu then says:
The three players in that post are GB, Volxen, and Navneet (which is you). TSE is pushing Volxen, and I don't see you being scum with TSE (I don't see you being scum whatsoever). So are you saying GB is scum if TSE flips scum?

[72offsuit]

VOTE: GamblingPig

[72offsuit]

Sure... Any ideas on making that happen?

Lynch All Lurkers.

[72offsuit]

Or better yet, join me in voting for GamblingPig

[72offsuit]

Wow deadline of 1 day 19 hours

[72offsuit]

I mean... when town is inactive, the remedy is usually... activity...

(Hypocrisy oof)

Its a bit of a perpetual vicious cycle

Low activity = little to respond to / less meat to analayse = less posting cos there is no content = low activity

[72offsuit]

But yes, I do think that "cus RVS lol" is a cop-out from c4 and my votes stays on him.

Re Hunter:

Didnt like this post - any re-affirmation of vote is scummy. Why the need to re-draw attention to who you are voting? Town doesnt need to holler out and say look at me.
Town needs to present a solid logical case as to why someone is scum and to convince their fellow townies of their case.

[72offsuit]

Mizzy vs 72 in posts 61-69 feels passive-aggressive from both sides, more from Mizzy especially in post 69.

This feels to me like scum trying to fuel a TvT clash

[72offsuit]

VOTE: 72offsuit

Not been a fan of quite of few of their posts. Think their push for the mizzy wagon is founded on very little. For someone who found me not voting to be "concerning", I think it's a little hypocritical to have not moved their vote since post #64 and haven't given any sort of reasoning for other people to put their vote there. If they think mizzy is scum, shouldn't they try to push us to vote them?

@

72

, could you post a read list? You haven't really given your thoughts on anyone in the game other than mizzy.

Sure.

Town +++++++++++++ 72os

Not worth mentioning: cyl,egix, c4

Scumlean: Hunter/safebet, Bipolar/Dye, Mizzy, muh

Scum: GamblingPig

[72offsuit]

ISOs:

Bipolar -- Nothing particularly telling yet IMO
AGamblingPig -- His only real read so far is his Bipolar read and it's basically a toneread so I don't feel like I can say much here yet.
Mizzy -- Tunneling someone in a vacuum is generally NAI and avoiding tunneling someone is good but Mizzy's treatment of cyl is horribly inconsistent with Mizzy's treatment of me.
hunterr -- Initial vote on me reads as obligatory contribution based on the only thing he can find to talk about. Eventually he gives an actual reason with original thought though so that's nice.
c4 -- Can't read this guy at all
cyl -- Looks like he's genuinely trying to figure out the game.
72 -- Beyond the spam he's doing a good job of being a newbie-stimulating SE.
muh316 -- hmmm
Egix -- See 72 but less so because of the relative shortage of posts.

This readslist feels like playing nicey-nicey with everyone. Bit of a brown-noser, inoffensive, buddying sort of post. Scummy

[72offsuit]

muh definitely looks worse, not because of this, but because he's been a far bigger lurker than Egix.

How so?

Before this recent string of posts, you simply had less content than Egix. That's different now, though, so that's a plus for you.

What's so bad about mindmeld reads?

It's the perfect way to generate both tunneling and pocketing.

Keeping a vote based on a microread this long is unhelpful so UNVOTE: Mizzytastic. Looking at the player list, the people who haven't had a significant positive impression on me at any point are muh, Egix and AGamblingPig.

For the most part I agree with 72's points on muh; lurking and then returning with a WIFOM defense is NAGL, and the whole "72 wouldn't gain much traction" thing is plain scummy.
Egix not caring about lurking accusations thrown at him is NAI IMO. That leaves just the lurking, with a bit of content in between.
Pig is now the lowest poster I believe. When he was posting he was putting thought into his posts, though.

VOTE: muh316

until further notice

.

This feels a bit over-explainy to me. Scum mindest of guilty consience... know they are guilty ... feel the need to overexplain things that need 0 explaining

[72offsuit]

Ok... so here are some initial thoughts...

Page 1

- RVS was RVS. I don't think anyone was being serious getting on 72 spamming the thread, seemed pretty arbitrary. I don't think 72 was getting particularly annoyed by getting called out either, seemed a pretty tongue in cheek response to me. I read nothing AI on this page.

Page 2

The Mizzy-C4 (Chess moves - yeah - the English - c4 e5 g3 d5) exchange I think was Mizzy just trying to drag this game quickly out of RVS and c4 still wanting to goof off. Still nothing particularly AI, imo. In other words, I disagree with Mizzy:

I think c4's response is +town (not worried about defending self, comfortable with rvs being a good enough reason).

I took a peek at some of 72's games and he seems to post a lot. I think activity is NAI and spam is anti-town in general but his reaction to being called on it feels +town. Scum are less comfy expressing that sort of frustration.

I don't think you can make a read on c4 up to this point and I don't think 72 was reacting adversely to the spamming thing... I think he was making a joke. I digress.

I'm going to keep my opinion of the hunterr-Mizzy interaction to myself for now... not sure how much it would help seeing as I subbed for hunterr...

Page 3

- So for me 72 voting Mizzy for the overall LAMIST feel seems like 72 is just annoyed at Mizzy misinterpreting 72's responses.

Page 4

-

I could vote cyl or Bipolar right now. I wanna hear from them both before hand though.

hunterr's unvote is making me move him back towards town. Its easy to unvote at E-1 early for town points but his reasoning beyond that felt genuine to me

This feels like classic newbscum.

Mindset preoccupied with people earning town points, because thats what Mazzy themself are trying to do as scum - trying to appear town.

I don't know 72... Mizzy is being a spaz but this is the second time you warned them about this and they haven't stopped yet. Seems like you are pulling an SE card with the "classic newbscum" quip. I mean we're just impressionable noobs, right?

Page 5

The 72 - Mizzy exchange just makes me scumread 72 more and more...

Page 6

Muh appears! I mean being generally inactive is not good for town I am told. But I don't know if this is an IRL busy thing or if the 72-muh interaction on p.6 are scum trying put some distance between them.

Again I'll stay away from the hunterr posts...

Page 7

Join me on the Mizzy wagon and let the "noteworthy" posts sally forth.

Man... it might be time to check my confirmation bias here...

Page 8

Welcome JDye (shouldn't he be welcoming me?)! So lots going on here for me. I think the JDye entrance clarified some of my reads... more on that below...

So in general my current in no particular order are:

townreads (for now)
JDye
cyl
c4

Mizzy... I do townread them but I don't necessarily agree with their vote analysis that there is at least 1 scum on the original c4 E-1 wagon or that one of the 4 2-vote wagons on page 8 have scum. I think its equally as plausible that scum isn't in either of these groups. However I don't think they are LAMIST... while I don't wish anyone to be sick... I do think Mizzy has been an easier to deal with since taking the paracetemol... they were just all over the place... it was too much noise.

Muh is neutral for me... I could entertain a 72/muh scum team... but I could just as easily see muh as IRL busy and the activity until page 8 as NAI.

Egix - also neutral... although it does strike me as plausible that both scum are low activity SE's

GPig - no read at all... again not sure if the activity is AI or not... I suppose I'll eventually learn to read folks like this

72off- right now my scumread... but (how's this for a poker analogy) I'm either way ahead or way behind on this read... What I mean is that I can't figure out why he is continuing to drum up a train on Mizzy... I just think it too obvious for it to be a scumplay... is that what TSTBS means? Too scummy to be scum... but perhaps thats the ploy? ahhh... I have to go to bed...

UNVOTE: cyl VOTE: 72offsuit

See you all tomorrow... I'll drop by on my lunch break.

Id actually like you to talk about the hunter posts.
Given a large part of how i read your slot is based on hunter, its a worthwhile exercise.

[72offsuit]

Updated readslist:

Town +++++++++++++ 72os

Not worth mentioning: cyl,egix

Scumlean: Hunter/safebet, Bipolar/Dye, Mizzy, muh, c4

Scum: GamblingPig

[72offsuit]

Need to consolidate on a kick for today with deadline fast approaching, and need enough time for a claim as well.

[72offsuit]

The fact cylstar is at E-2 and was still sitting on a solo GamblingPig wagon, whom noone really expressed interest in kicking throughout the thread, ie not being survivalistic, alone points towards more likely !towncyl than !scumcyl imo.

[72offsuit]

Deadline 27 hours. Given ppl r on dif time zones and leaving time for claims.
Lunchtime post, i will post updated thoughts in about 5-9 hrs from now

[72offsuit]

But yes, I do think that "cus RVS lol" is a cop-out from c4 and my votes stays on him.

Re Hunter:

Didnt like this post -

any re-affirmation of vote is scummy

. Why the need to re-draw attention to who you are voting? Town doesnt need to holler out and say look at me.
Town needs to present a solid logical case as to why someone is scum and to convince their fellow townies of their case.

I disagree tbh.

This readslist feels like playing nicey-nicey with everyone. Bit of a brown-noser, inoffensive, buddying sort of post. Scummy

This feels a bit over-explainy to me. Scum mindest of guilty consience... know they are guilty ... feel the need to overexplain things that need 0 explaining

I guess I can kinda see the first one if I squint hard enough? I agree with the second one more though.

Updated readslist:

Town +++++++++++++ 72os

Not worth mentioning: cyl,egix

Scumlean: Hunter/safebet, Bipolar/Dye, Mizzy, muh, c4

Scum: GamblingPig

How do you have so many scum leans

Also you have Mizzy as a scum lean yet you imply that they're town in 274, what's up with that?

The fact cylstar is at E-2 and was still sitting on a solo GamblingPig wagon, whom noone really expressed interest in kicking throughout the thread, ie not being survivalistic, alone points towards more likely !towncyl than !scumcyl imo.

Considering that she's only made one post recently, I'd say this is a premature judgement.

1. Because the game is stale ass and noone is being proactive.
Scum delight.

2. Wassuppppppp.
Yes. Players can have scummy posts and townie posts.

[72offsuit]

Weird that both 72 and Mizzy started leaning towards town!cyl and started FOSing AGamblingPig within a very short amount of time. 72 being opportunistic when it looks like town is going to move in a certain direction?

You comment on my interacting with Mizzy and my vote on GamblingPig, and FoS me,
yet you make ZERO references to my actual case against GamblingPig.

Which basically reveals your mindset is not to solve slots, but rather to secure a miskick.

JD is scum.

[72offsuit]

My wagons in order:

72
Muh
Apig

Muh is neutral for me... I could entertain a 72/muh scum team... but I could just as easily see muh as IRL busy and the activity until page 8 as NAI.

Safebet read muh as neutral but now they're their second favourite elim candidate? What's muh done to move them from neutral to above Pig for an elim? If you think it's 72/muh (don't really think we should be looking at game solves a this point) why not keep your vote on 72?

this post rings ALARM BELLS.

Starts off by talking about safebet in the third person, as if the post is pitched towards players other than safebet,
then switches to the second person perspective and refers directly to safebet.

[72offsuit]

Not worth mentioning: cyl,egix, c4

72 says c4 isn't worth mentioning (they're being read as neutral) but goes on to say in their next two posts (#276 and #[post=#viewtopic.php?p=12290822#p1229082212290823]277[/post]) that C4 looks scummy.

Because town never change their mind based on re-reads and new information at hand.
Because town always tunnels one player they know is scum.
Hang on, that doesnt sound right.
Its scum that know the alignment of all players!

Trying to fit a convenient narrative for you tunneling me and me changing my vote.

Scum.

[72offsuit]

Goddammit. I move off cyl and she says something like that? I like the case 72 has (and scum!72 already has at least one own wagon with more than a vanity vote on it so I don't see the opportunism) but I don't like voting with her. I'd definitely prefer cyl or pig over muh or 72, though I really doubt they are both scum here.

I really need to look at the "safe seats" more and see what I think of them. Hopefully brain will cooperate :/

Sometimes nailing the coffin into scumbox town is second best to kicking scum

[72offsuit]

Vote Count 1.9

Neon, ₁₀Ne

— noble gas, standard atomic weight 20.180, group 18, period 2, p-block

AGamblingPig

(3): cylstar, 72offsuit, Mizzytastic

cylstar

(2): muh316, Egix96

muh316

(2): AGamblingPig, c4e5g3d5

72offsuit

(2): safebet222, JDye

With 9 alive, it takes 5 votes to eliminate.

Deadline:

(expired on 2020-11-06 06:30:00)

Deadline 19 hours.

[72offsuit]

No. Horrible idea.

[72offsuit]

One claim is enough.
@ Pig - regardless of alignment this game or next game u play, dont claim ypur role unless you are E-1 and someone is expressing intenr to hammer.

[72offsuit]

Unless someone strongly feels muh is scum thats fine. But im really not seeing that

[72offsuit]

Yes, if he is town, no biggie. no point keeping someone who doesnt want to play around anyway. Was given ample time to analyse wagon, privide scum reads on his imminent death and basically did nothing.

[72offsuit]

Happy cakeday muh

[72offsuit]

I might not post for the rest of the day, so:
Regarding my supposed experience, irl mafia has a lot of differences. for one, people don't have records of everything people say, and the 'loud' people tend to dominate the conversation. I've only really played these games with people I know pretty well. I also never said I was good at irl mafia. Scumhunting is even harder and my only strategy as mafia is to lurk.

72 being so accusatory is weird, but I don't know what to attribute it to. But it's good how they are trying to raise activity levels, I guess

I definitely felt like people were voting muh for only one small reason (their evading the question) which made me suspect people were jumping on the 'easy' wagon. This sort of reasoning will probably lead me to WIFOM but...
I've got to go back and reread what made mizzy and 72 vote Pig

cyl, scum arent going to put their hand up and admit they r scum.

The best way to find scum is to pressure and accuse. If you like their response, perhaps your intitial read is wrong, and they are in fact town.
Perhaps they become nervous, make a few posts that are suggestive of a scum mindest - Survivalism, inconsistency.

Furthermore, by pushing someone, you force others to take a stance on the player pushing, as well as the player being pushed.
This creates further alignment indicative behaviour. Does player X join the wagon? Defend the player being pushed? Scumread the player pushing?

No offence, but if we all shrug and say, hmm that behaviour is weird, but i dont know what it means, town gets nowhere.

If I was scum I would sit back and just be middle of the road - make a light push, without ruffling any feathers.
There is literally ZERO incentive for !Scumme to be active in this game.

Sure, you can take this with a grain of salt, and it could be wifom yadda yadda yadda.
But that;s just how it is. 15 pages of mostly apathy.

[72offsuit]

Mafia might choose to no kill gambit but I doubt it. Pretty sure setup is designed to disincentivise that but someone might try to be clever. If they have it probably benefits us anyway.

You can forget but with two players and probably a mod reminder at 24 hours I doubt it.

Assuming neither of those weird situations...


Doc, you know a member of the town, you shouldn't share it today unless you have to claim, enjoy the free read

JK, you know someone is either town or the attempted killer, you shouldn't share either, but hopefully the polarised position helps your read


Now, unless someone wants to disagree with me about the above from a mech perspective can we quietly celebrate our good fortune and stop taking about power roles?

I shall now return to trying to sleep

I agree with Mizzy. If there is a Doc they shouldnt claim today and can consider claiming tomorrow if needed/deemed useful.

[72offsuit]

Jailed players are slightly more likely to be scum who attempted a kill, rather than town who were targeted.

[72offsuit]

c4


112: Scum-buddying sort of readslist - towards myself, cyl and hunter/safebet, while also white-knights/defends
cyl in his read of Mizzy.
Scummy +


194 Over-explainy / overjustifying post - this is EASILY one of my most successfully correct scumreads throughout my games on mafiascum.

Scummy ++


Votes for Mizzy in 111 and Muh in 194, both after I initiated pushes against these 2 players.
Agreed with my scumreads for those 2 at that time, and yet in 283 puts me as a preferred kick to cyl,
despite my high activity levels and cyl barely posting.
Only comment Re: a townread on cyl is super vague statement that she "Seems to genuinely be trying to figure out the game"
The discussion of preferred kick amongst FOUR wagons is not a town mindset either. He has 2 firm scumreads, why would !townC4 even
bother talking about cyl and my wagons, when Mizzy and Muh were both perfectly viable and likely to fly wagons.
Its also rare for Town to discuss kicking players they share key scumreads with.

Scummy ++

Sanity check - reading the slot from a town perspective, I'd say towniest post is probs

324 - "Take big issue with Egix and Mizzy forgetting this is a newbie game (re: cyl)"
is a post I can vibe with, potentially a town mindset here, to try to realign egix and mizzy on a player !townc4 is townreading.

Pretty slim pickings on the !townc4 front

[72offsuit]

forgot the post linking. meh. deal with it

[72offsuit]

cyl

105 - votes someone for lurking, despite lurking herself.
If cyl is town, then this reasoning for voting someone doesn;t really match up.

Overall the line of posts reads like someone new to forum mafia, unsure of themself and seeking approval.

219: I actually like the bare-as-bones readslist froma newbie perspective.
I particualrly like that she differentiates between activity of Mizzy as being overal pro town,
and my activity as being potentially pro town, but "a bit dodgy".

295 just reads to me as a newbie seeking affirmation.

372 seems like a reasonable town mindset.

Overall likely to be town. Low-hanging fruit for scum to kick.

[72offsuit]

Sorry about the prod, bit of a mental health crisis here this last week but I'll try and push through. I can respond to stuff as it bugs me fine but I don't have a great holistic feel of the game state.

Something game relevant so it is a valid prod response incase I pass out...

This turned into more of a post than I intended...

@72 Why is a jk more likely to have hit the killer than the target? Surely it'd be dependent on the jk's intent?

@c4 Still haven't answered my questions from yesterday. I'll make it easy for you and repost them so you don't have to go digging

Do you think me and egix are scummy for our treatment of cyl or just bad sports playing a newbie game that way?
If you think it's scummy do you think we make sense as a team with the strategy of being votes 1 and 2 on that wagon for very similar reasons?
If I am scum do you think my leaving LHFtown!cyl to join what turned out to be LHF town Pig at that time makes any sense as scum beyond the WIFOM scum!me is getting from asking these questions? If I don't leave there I think cyl has really good equity for being the wagon that goes through.

Also DADV was true cos Pig is dead, we know that now. Though hardly deader air than the rest of the game. muh wasn't the leading wagon

Someone that seemed like a solid player posted that In a previous newbie game of mine.
I really cbs trawling through my games.
I don;t have any stats or wiki page to back this up if thats what u were after.

[72offsuit]

Egix is the sort of player I find super frustrating to read. I know this is in his town range from another game, I know that he gets pressure for it (up to and including leading wagon - can't remember if he got miselimed that game) as town and considering 40ish games played probably isn't changing any time soon. I also understand why he get seen as scummy and that scum can benefit from his playstyle. I guess he's just a good case of why what you are looking for with scumhunting is intent.

Don't really have any good ideas though, just frustration

Yes, have personally benefitted as scum previosuuly from !townegix.

[72offsuit]

Mizzy

Micro vibe pings early game. Seemed to handle the push against him reasoanbly well, not overly defensive.

His poking, prodding felt pro-town.

131 sounds like its coming from a town mindest
Analysing players attitudes towards each other and whetyhere their (hunter's) words match their actions (vote)

Town ++


170 Town ++
I like this analysis and feel it is comingg froma town mindset, looking for inconsistency in posts.

"It feels like trying to look like you have thoughts about something people find important,
but they don't make sense with each other."

[72offsuit]

Discussion Re: scumread of cyl even though I disagree, also feels quite balanced and considered

[72offsuit]

Muh
Low-hanging fruit town

123 - On re-read of the game, I think !scumMuh would try to appease town questioning him, rather than refuse.
His uncooperative attitude reminds me of Worcestshire in Newbie 2015.

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=83462&user_select[]=34514

His refusal to answer in 137 reads like suspicious, guarded town.

Muh's reposting of the same question towards me twice

The severe inactivity at end of day also SCREAMS town vs town wagons,
whereby scum doesnt have to make moves as they already have a miskick secured

More likely to be scum than cyl, though unlikely.

[72offsuit]

JDye - still scum for reasons posted yesterday. Its midnight here, cbf reposting at this stage.

[72offsuit]

VOTE: JDye

[72offsuit]

Will continue ISOs tomorrow

[72offsuit]

VOTE: C4

Can see !TownJdye thinking its me and cyl.

Cant see scumbox C4's case against Egix.

[72offsuit]

Mizzy, join me on the C4 wagon

[72offsuit]

JDye is still more likely scum than town though

[72offsuit]

Okay time to switch gears... This game is so dead... Muh you're still on my scumlist...

Muh
Low-hanging fruit town

123 - On re-read of the game, I think !scumMuh would try to appease town questioning him, rather than refuse.
His uncooperative attitude reminds me of Worcestshire in Newbie 2015.

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=83462&user_select[]=34514

His refusal to answer in 137 reads like suspicious, guarded town.

Muh's reposting of the same question towards me twice

The severe inactivity at end of day also SCREAMS town vs town wagons,
whereby scum doesnt have to make moves as they already have a miskick secured

More likely to be scum than cyl, though unlikely.

Also this last line is a big thonk.

@egix... Tell me more...72 never left my scumlist. Lets discuss.

72off - his push on JDye felt ungenuine because I think that JD's catchup was fairly obvtown and it seemed like 72 was specifically trying to sow dissent - going in with the preconceived notion that JD "must" be scum rather than actually aiming to sort him.

Do you think this push was scum!72 and if so, why not push 72? That's a wagon I can get on. I'm not interested in a cyl push today.

The thonk is because a) I really don't see how anyone could think that muh has less town equity than cyl, and b) how he phrases it in terms of "more likely to be scum" when he's talking about them being town.

That kind of push is something I don't think I've seen 72 do before as either alignment. I'm just seeing it in a similar way to how JD is.

I could switch, but I am finding it curious that you're not interested in pushing cyl.

Garbage post.

Cyl and Muh are light townleans who have contributed next to nothing to this game. Muh is scummier than cyl.

JDye scum is not a preconceived idea. I stated reasoning for my read.

[72offsuit]

Safebet is my most confident town read. I'd need to reconsider at endgame but he just sounds like he's putting lots of thought in to this game

72 I think is probably town.

I don't think he needs to effort this much as scum

JDye sounds nice but I'm not as confident there. I think the way he joined the game is hard to do as scum but I need to iso and reread 72s case
s
I know I can't read players like Egix. I've found him a bit buddyish in the degree he's defended me but there's enough icky slots this game I'd prefer not to vote there today. If he is scum I would be surprised if his 3 scum reads is a legit rule of 3.

Cyl is the best policy elim as LHF but LHF tends to be town +rand and her apathy seems genuine

Nothing has particularly stood out to me about muh but his thoughts feel shallow and icky as the game progresses. Kinda uncomfortable with scum!muh not voting or efforting around deadline

I need to do another read here but my feelings about the slot are getting worse over the game. In particular he feels like someone trying to manipulate the game state and like he knows cyl's alignment and is trying to benefit from it. I don't think he's ever actually explained why cyl is town, just said its obvious and the people who don't see it are bad for not seeing it.


I guess this is more a where I want to vote list than a reads list. I would not be surprised to find out one scum is more in the middle here. Honestly my doubts about cyl and muh should make me less happy to vote there but I'm scared of how a final x situation handles having them around.

Perhaps he doesn't "need" to, but I know he is capable of it and I would imagine he would do it just because he can.

I'm not a fancy play syndrome player. So no.

[72offsuit]

Noone has even bothered to comment on my theory of town vs town wagons = low activity from scum on day one.

Barely anyone has given 2 shits about my ISOs.

He is efforting so he is scum, herp derp. Gee im a good scumhunter.

[72offsuit]

Ok... so here are some initial thoughts...

Page 1

- RVS was RVS. I don't think anyone was being serious getting on 72 spamming the thread, seemed pretty arbitrary. I don't think 72 was getting particularly annoyed by getting called out either, seemed a pretty tongue in cheek response to me. I read nothing AI on this page.

Page 2

The Mizzy-C4 (Chess moves - yeah - the English - c4 e5 g3 d5) exchange I think was Mizzy just trying to drag this game quickly out of RVS and c4 still wanting to goof off. Still nothing particularly AI, imo. In other words, I disagree with Mizzy:

I think c4's response is +town (not worried about defending self, comfortable with rvs being a good enough reason).

I took a peek at some of 72's games and he seems to post a lot. I think activity is NAI and spam is anti-town in general but his reaction to being called on it feels +town. Scum are less comfy expressing that sort of frustration.

I don't think you can make a read on c4 up to this point and I don't think 72 was reacting adversely to the spamming thing... I think he was making a joke. I digress.

I'm going to keep my opinion of the hunterr-Mizzy interaction to myself for now... not sure how much it would help seeing as I subbed for hunterr...

Page 3

- So for me 72 voting Mizzy for the overall LAMIST feel seems like 72 is just annoyed at Mizzy misinterpreting 72's responses.

Page 4

-

I could vote cyl or Bipolar right now. I wanna hear from them both before hand though.

hunterr's unvote is making me move him back towards town. Its easy to unvote at E-1 early for town points but his reasoning beyond that felt genuine to me

This feels like classic newbscum.

Mindset preoccupied with people earning town points, because thats what Mazzy themself are trying to do as scum - trying to appear town.

I don't know 72... Mizzy is being a spaz but this is the second time you warned them about this and they haven't stopped yet. Seems like you are pulling an SE card with the "classic newbscum" quip. I mean we're just impressionable noobs, right?

Page 5

The 72 - Mizzy exchange just makes me scumread 72 more and more...

Page 6

Muh appears! I mean being generally inactive is not good for town I am told. But I don't know if this is an IRL busy thing or if the 72-muh interaction on p.6 are scum trying put some distance between them.

Again I'll stay away from the hunterr posts...

Page 7

Join me on the Mizzy wagon and let the "noteworthy" posts sally forth.

Man... it might be time to check my confirmation bias here...

Page 8

Welcome JDye (shouldn't he be welcoming me?)! So lots going on here for me. I think the JDye entrance clarified some of my reads... more on that below...

So in general my current in no particular order are:

townreads (for now)
JDye
cyl
c4

Mizzy... I do townread them but I don't necessarily agree with their vote analysis that there is at least 1 scum on the original c4 E-1 wagon or that one of the 4 2-vote wagons on page 8 have scum. I think its equally as plausible that scum isn't in either of these groups. However I don't think they are LAMIST... while I don't wish anyone to be sick... I do think Mizzy has been an easier to deal with since taking the paracetemol... they were just all over the place... it was too much noise.

Muh is neutral for me... I could entertain a 72/muh scum team... but I could just as easily see muh as IRL busy and the activity until page 8 as NAI.

Egix - also neutral... although it does strike me as plausible that both scum are low activity SE's

GPig - no read at all... again not sure if the activity is AI or not... I suppose I'll eventually learn to read folks like this

72off- right now my scumread... but (how's this for a poker analogy) I'm either way ahead or way behind on this read... What I mean is that I can't figure out why he is continuing to drum up a train on Mizzy... I just think it too obvious for it to be a scumplay... is that what TSTBS means? Too scummy to be scum... but perhaps thats the ploy? ahhh... I have to go to bed...

UNVOTE: cyl VOTE: 72offsuit

See you all tomorrow... I'll drop by on my lunch break.

Opportunistically jumps in on Mizzy vs me.

I'm scum reading 72 more and more offers ZERO reasoning - scummy

[72offsuit]

Ok... so here are some initial thoughts...

Page 1

- RVS was RVS. I don't think anyone was being serious getting on 72 spamming the thread, seemed pretty arbitrary. I don't think 72 was getting particularly annoyed by getting called out either, seemed a pretty tongue in cheek response to me. I read nothing AI on this page.

Page 2

The Mizzy-C4 (Chess moves - yeah - the English - c4 e5 g3 d5) exchange I think was Mizzy just trying to drag this game quickly out of RVS and c4 still wanting to goof off. Still nothing particularly AI, imo. In other words, I disagree with Mizzy:

I think c4's response is +town (not worried about defending self, comfortable with rvs being a good enough reason).

I took a peek at some of 72's games and he seems to post a lot. I think activity is NAI and spam is anti-town in general but his reaction to being called on it feels +town. Scum are less comfy expressing that sort of frustration.

I don't think you can make a read on c4 up to this point and I don't think 72 was reacting adversely to the spamming thing... I think he was making a joke. I digress.

I'm going to keep my opinion of the hunterr-Mizzy interaction to myself for now... not sure how much it would help seeing as I subbed for hunterr...

Page 3

- So for me 72 voting Mizzy for the overall LAMIST feel seems like 72 is just annoyed at Mizzy misinterpreting 72's responses.

Page 4

-

I could vote cyl or Bipolar right now. I wanna hear from them both before hand though.

hunterr's unvote is making me move him back towards town. Its easy to unvote at E-1 early for town points but his reasoning beyond that felt genuine to me

This feels like classic newbscum.

Mindset preoccupied with people earning town points, because thats what Mazzy themself are trying to do as scum - trying to appear town.

I don't know 72... Mizzy is being a spaz but this is the second time you warned them about this and they haven't stopped yet. Seems like you are pulling an SE card with the "classic newbscum" quip. I mean we're just impressionable noobs, right?

Page 5

The 72 - Mizzy exchange just makes me scumread 72 more and more...

Page 6

Muh appears! I mean being generally inactive is not good for town I am told. But I don't know if this is an IRL busy thing or if the 72-muh interaction on p.6 are scum trying put some distance between them.

Again I'll stay away from the hunterr posts...

Page 7

Join me on the Mizzy wagon and let the "noteworthy" posts sally forth.

Man... it might be time to check my confirmation bias here...

Page 8

Welcome JDye (shouldn't he be welcoming me?)! So lots going on here for me. I think the JDye entrance clarified some of my reads... more on that below...

So in general my current in no particular order are:

townreads (for now)
JDye
cyl
c4

Mizzy... I do townread them but I don't necessarily agree with their vote analysis that there is at least 1 scum on the original c4 E-1 wagon or that one of the 4 2-vote wagons on page 8 have scum. I think its equally as plausible that scum isn't in either of these groups. However I don't think they are LAMIST... while I don't wish anyone to be sick... I do think Mizzy has been an easier to deal with since taking the paracetemol... they were just all over the place... it was too much noise.

Muh is neutral for me... I could entertain a 72/muh scum team... but I could just as easily see muh as IRL busy and the activity until page 8 as NAI.

Egix - also neutral... although it does strike me as plausible that both scum are low activity SE's

GPig - no read at all... again not sure if the activity is AI or not... I suppose I'll eventually learn to read folks like this

72off- right now my scumread... but (how's this for a poker analogy) I'm either way ahead or way behind on this read... What I mean is that I can't figure out why he is continuing to drum up a train on Mizzy... I just think it too obvious for it to be a scumplay... is that what TSTBS means? Too scummy to be scum... but perhaps thats the ploy? ahhh... I have to go to bed...

UNVOTE: cyl VOTE: 72offsuit

See you all tomorrow... I'll drop by on my lunch break.

Opportunistically jumps in on Mizzy vs me.

I'm scum reading 72 more and more offers ZERO reasoning - scummy

[72offsuit]

JDye scum is not a preconceived idea. I stated reasoning for my read.

Your reasoning is awful and you still haven't answered my question.

Focusing on yourself instead of all my ISOS on all the players.

Keep on digging your own hole JDye

[72offsuit]

Pretty sure your question isnt even worth answering

[72offsuit]

@72,

when are you going to answer the questions I asked?

2) What is so alarming about my post about safebet where I switched form third to second person?

This is the one I care about. How did my post "ring ALARM BELLS"?

I explained this already.

As town, one appeals to other players they read as town to achieve a scum lynch.

[72offsuit]

Referring to safebet in 3rd person, is like you are speaking to the rest of town, pointing out an inconsistency of Safebet

Then you switch to talking to safebet directly, saying you dont think he should be doing a game solve at this stage, and then you come out with your own full game solve several posts later.

[72offsuit]

TOWN
72
Mizzy


null-town
cyl
muh

null
Egix

SCUMREAD
JDye / Safebet

SCUM
c4

[72offsuit]

JDye, whose reads in this game are groundbreaking. Go.

[72offsuit]

Im waiting

[72offsuit]

Dude, you said something super dumb (me switching tenses in one lost rings massive alarm bells) and youve refused to explain. If you're town, this is bad play.

I'm done with this. My votes sitting on you until I get an answer or you get elimmed.

Shut up. I just responded to your post

[72offsuit]

Im still waiting for u to tell me who has had grounbreaking reads in this game.

[72offsuit]

As for your reads, they're not exactly groundbreaking. Most of it has been mentioned by other people and I think you're coming at it with preconceived ideas on who is town and who is scum.

Who has had groundbreaking reads?

[72offsuit]

You're justifying that post with things that happened just recently. Explain why you thought it was scummy at the time.

I've answered. I dont give 2 shits if u dont like the answer

[72offsuit]

Who has had groundbreaking reads?

[72offsuit]

Scum trying to think of an answer

[72offsuit]

You answered by talking about things that just happened. You wouldn't have thought these things when you made that post because they hadn't happened and now you're flailing.

Stalling more.

[72offsuit]

Still waiting

[72offsuit]

TOWN
72
Mizzy


null-town
cyl
muh

null
Egix

SCUMREAD
Safebet

SCUM
JDye
c4

[72offsuit]

Says my cases arent groundbreaking ... quotes exactly ZERO parts of my cases.

[72offsuit]

Still not answering whose case is groundbreaking

[72offsuit]

Stating someone's cases arent groundbreaking actually suggests you know im town, otherwise you would just say my cases are FALSE rather than UNCONVINCING

[72offsuit]

Lmao. Flailing.

You couldn't answer the question and now you're trying to flip this on me.

I never said anyone's reads were particularly groundbreaking just that yours weren't. Pretty much all you said has been said before. Even your TvT theory was mentioned by someone else first.

Then y comment on just 1 player as their cases not being groundbreaking?

why not INTERACT with the ACTUAL CONTENT IN THEM and point out specifically what you DISAGREE with, or which you dont read the same way?

[72offsuit]

Instead of fixating on 1 post that pinged me

[72offsuit]

The fact that you are expecting groundbreaking reads in a boring lurkfest of a game
shows that you arent frustrated town hoping for more content, but rather scum fostering an environment of lurking by shooting down players who provide content, and not even bothering to refer to SPECIFIC parts of cases.

[72offsuit]

The fact that you are expecting groundbreaking reads in a boring lurkfest of a game
shows that you arent frustrated town hoping for more content, but rather scum fostering an environment of lurking by shooting down players who provide content, and not even bothering to refer to SPECIFIC parts of cases.

[72offsuit]

I'm focusing on you because you're my top scum read. Because you dodged a question for like 4 days. Because when you did answer the question, the answer didn't make sense.

Sure because there is only 1 scum. OH WAIT there are 2!

[72offsuit]

I'm focusing on you because you're my top scum read. Because you dodged a question for like 4 days. Because when you did answer the question, the answer didn't make sense.

If you are town, you are single handedly tanking this game.

[72offsuit]

Fixating on a push against you and completely ignoring all my other posts.

[72offsuit]

Fixating on a push against you and completely ignoring all my other posts.

[72offsuit]

Sry for above post, wrong account.

@Mizzy
Because i wanted to see how others would react to your shit-wagon.

[72offsuit]

@72 what moved JDye temporarily from lockscum to scum read for you, before you moved him back?

Also if you liked my response to your initial push on my why didn't you act that way at the time?

He was always a scumread. Noone is strong scum day 1, despite what i write.

[72offsuit]

I'm kinda tempted to just vote in JDye/72 right now. This doesn't feel TvT to me, I already think they are likely the scum on the AGP wagon, and I'm kinda feeling more and more that cyl and muh are both town, especially cyl.

Too many people look scummy this game >.<


Pedit: did you get any results from your reaction test?

Pretty much everyone abstained.

[72offsuit]

Egix declined, p much everyone else ignored. Which made me think you were moreso town. Scum were too afraid to stick their head out.

[72offsuit]

c4 overtook JDye and safebet when i mulled over my c4 ISO. JDye stayed the same, till he called my cases as not groundbreaking whilst ignoring the content in them and then refusing to

Why would he point out that my cases of others are not groundbreaking if others reads are SIMILARLY not groundbreaking.
If other's cases are no more or less groundbreaking than mine, than how can my cases being non grounbreaking be a negative against me.
It makes zero sense from a town pserpective.

[72offsuit]

Quick rundown of that iso diving though...

Muh read is very basic and you only make one point based on their posts. That point was brought up by numerous other people much earlier in the game.

Regarding the TvT wagon theory you mention in the same post. That's also something someone else mentioned today and something that people seemed to agree with. I thought it was a decent point at the time but I'm changing my mind now. If scumt honks their partner is undefendable, they're likely to just be audit and let what happens happen if they aren't on a position to push it and get town points.

For the mizzy read, you say you like their 131. I said that same thing on my entrance. To be fair, the 170 point doesn't seem to have been mentioned before.

Cyl read is weak and a turn from what you previously believed. You only started to read Cyl as town after mozzy mentioned doing something similar. Same for the AGP vote. Say they have a town mindset in their 372. How so? Seems pretty NAI to me. They literally say we should look at every player in the game bar myself and Mizzy. Don't know why they don't want to look at me when I'm in their neutral list. You seemingly like people finding contradictions but don't look at the contradictiom surrounding her agp vote in the 219 post that you think is towny.

C4. You don't like thier read list in 112. Something I mentioned on my entrance as being weak on content but calling it "scum-buddying" is new at least. Hard disagree with your point on 194. They give a mini read list and vote accordingly. Point in the middle of this post is only thing I think is genuinely new and good from all the ISO dives. I need to look more though when I'm on desktop. Ended up doing this in mobile in the end.

Please quote which EXACT POSTS you are referring to in the line

"That point was brought up by numerous other people much earlier in the game."

I want EXACT quotes.

[72offsuit]

Quick rundown of that iso diving though...

Muh read is very basic and you only make one point based on their posts. That point was brought up by numerous other people much earlier in the game.

Regarding the TvT wagon theory you mention in the same post. That's also something someone else mentioned today and something that people seemed to agree with. I thought it was a decent point at the time but I'm changing my mind now. If scumt honks their partner is undefendable, they're likely to just be audit and let what happens happen if they aren't on a position to push it and get town points.

For the mizzy read, you say you like their 131. I said that same thing on my entrance. To be fair, the 170 point doesn't seem to have been mentioned before.

Cyl read is weak and a turn from what you previously believed. You only started to read Cyl as town after mozzy mentioned doing something similar. Same for the AGP vote. Say they have a town mindset in their 372. How so? Seems pretty NAI to me. They literally say we should look at every player in the game bar myself and Mizzy. Don't know why they don't want to look at me when I'm in their neutral list. You seemingly like people finding contradictions but don't look at the contradictiom surrounding her agp vote in the 219 post that you think is towny.

C4. You don't like thier read list in 112. Something I mentioned on my entrance as being weak on content but calling it "scum-buddying" is new at least. Hard disagree with your point on 194. They give a mini read list and vote accordingly. Point in the middle of this post is only thing I think is genuinely new and good from all the ISO dives. I need to look more though when I'm on desktop. Ended up doing this in mobile in the end.

@ JDye: Who was the 'FIRST in this game to suggest a Town vs Town wagon day one'?
Please quote that speicific post.

[72offsuit]

Quick rundown of that iso diving though...

Muh read is very basic and you only make one point based on their posts. That point was brought up by numerous other people much earlier in the game.

Regarding the TvT wagon theory you mention in the same post. That's also something someone else mentioned today and something that people seemed to agree with. I thought it was a decent point at the time but I'm changing my mind now. If scumt honks their partner is undefendable, they're likely to just be audit and let what happens happen if they aren't on a position to push it and get town points.

For the mizzy read, you say you like their 131. I said that same thing on my entrance. To be fair, the 170 point doesn't seem to have been mentioned before.

Cyl read is weak and a turn from what you previously believed. You only started to read Cyl as town after mozzy mentioned doing something similar. Same for the AGP vote. Say they have a town mindset in their 372. How so? Seems pretty NAI to me. They literally say we should look at every player in the game bar myself and Mizzy. Don't know why they don't want to look at me when I'm in their neutral list. You seemingly like people finding contradictions but don't look at the contradictiom surrounding her agp vote in the 219 post that you think is towny.

C4. You don't like thier read list in 112. Something I mentioned on my entrance as being weak on content but calling it "scum-buddying" is new at least. Hard disagree with your point on 194. They give a mini read list and vote accordingly. Point in the middle of this post is only thing I think is genuinely new and good from all the ISO dives. I need to look more though when I'm on desktop. Ended up doing this in mobile in the end.

I ask you again, why are you looking at the ISO dive now.
If you really scumread me as you say you did, why did you not take the opportunity to look for flaws in logic in my ISOs sooner?

[72offsuit]

Quick rundown of that iso diving though...

Muh read is very basic and you only make one point based on their posts. That point was brought up by numerous other people much earlier in the game.

Regarding the TvT wagon theory you mention in the same post. That's also something someone else mentioned today and something that people seemed to agree with. I thought it was a decent point at the time but I'm changing my mind now. If scumt honks their partner is undefendable, they're likely to just be audit and let what happens happen if they aren't on a position to push it and get town points.

For the mizzy read, you say you like their 131. I said that same thing on my entrance. To be fair, the 170 point doesn't seem to have been mentioned before.

Cyl read is weak and a turn from what you previously believed. You only started to read Cyl as town after mozzy mentioned doing something similar. Same for the AGP vote. Say they have a town mindset in their 372. How so? Seems pretty NAI to me. They literally say we should look at every player in the game bar myself and Mizzy. Don't know why they don't want to look at me when I'm in their neutral list. You seemingly like people finding contradictions but don't look at the contradictiom surrounding her agp vote in the 219 post that you think is towny.

C4. You don't like thier read list in 112. Something I mentioned on my entrance as being weak on content but calling it "scum-buddying" is new at least. Hard disagree with your point on 194. They give a mini read list and vote accordingly. Point in the middle of this post is only thing I think is genuinely new and good from all the ISO dives. I need to look more though when I'm on desktop. Ended up doing this in mobile in the end.

Show me EXACTLY which post I scumread/scumleaned cyl

[72offsuit]

Will probably look in more detail when I can be bothered to get on desktop and once I've got the two assignments due tomorrow finished.

Since I've at least started to respond to your ISO diving which you seemed very eager for me to do, perhaps you could answer my questions?

I have ZERO incentive to do this.

You are making ZERO effort to consider the possibility of !townMe and are not even remotely interested in looking for a second "scumread".

Which points to !scumyou 70% of the time and useless town the reamining 30% of the time

[72offsuit]

Again with this "this sense as town perspective" as if you are the arbiter of what is town and what isn't. I've explained. A lot of what is in your reads I either disagree with or has been said before. Mentioned in my last post, there's only one thing is consider new in that post and it's something to look at more.

As for the quotes, fam, I've got shit to do. Two assignments due tomorrow. You want quotes, sure you'll get them, if you answer my questions properly. You mentioned to muh that he should act in good faith and assume you're doing the same, but that's not how you're acting with me.

I've attempted to answer anything you've asked me, you've refused to answer anything properly.

It doesnt have to be now. I just want them at some stage.

[72offsuit]

I dont care, if you dont answer my questions i dont care. It just makes you more confscum if u dont.

You scumread me for allegedly dodging your question and then are refusing to answer my questions unless i meet your demands.
Inconsistency. Double standards. Scum.

[72offsuit]

By your logic, you are scumclaiming if you refuse to answer my questions

[72offsuit]

Show me EXACTLY which post I scumread/scumleaned cyl

I wil but I have other things to do when I finally get to my desktop.

See the difference in how willing I am to answer questions when compared to you. Ones a town mindset one isn't.

THats the thing. You arent willing. You are making ultimatums

[72offsuit]

Muh and cyl, please vote for c4

[72offsuit]

@72 what moved JDye temporarily from lockscum to scum read for you, before you moved him back?

Also if you liked my response to your initial push on my why didn't you act that way at the time?

He was always a scumread. Noone is strong scum day 1, despite what i write.

What moved c4 down then? You voted JDye after your c4 iso

And I'm still curious why I'm in your pile of scum leans end of day 1 if it was a reaction test, and why you left your vote there if it was just a reaction test.


UNVOTE:

Feel kinda gross voting with either of you right now unless it's for the other. And that "you two, vote" gave me bad feels, especially as I can see cyl seeing that and following without checking if it's a hammer


I'm also dipping for a bit, 3 hours sleep was not enough

1. I mulled over my c4 iso and was more confident in that read as time passed.

2. My read on u shifted but i didnt out it as i didnt want u nightkilled, so i left u in the multi scumpile

[72offsuit]

Kinda feeling 72/Egix or JDye/c4 right now. Maybe either with muh but I do feel like scum!muh would be more proactive end of day 1

K. This is town +++.

[72offsuit]

What r ur thoughts on hunter safebet Mizzy?

[72offsuit]

You had several days to pressure players or make cases

2 days is time to consolidate on a kick.

[72offsuit]

Spoiler:

I've been in bed with a headache most of today and I'm busy the next 4 hours so I've only really skimmed. I'll try and catch up before bed depending on how tired I feel. This is the stuff that stood out to me on a skim.


Based on the vote count at the top of the page (I know it's changed since), I would be very surprised if all 4 of those 2-vote wagons are on town. Scum have 4 different players to pick from there and it feels odd to me that they'd pick in a way that produces that split. It also makes JDye's decision note to vote his lowest read feel like it's less scummy unless muh-JDye is exactly the team. It's SO easy for scum to vote there, as a replacement coming in with new perspectives onto a player the momentum of the day is turning against. Not that I like the no voting, especially when it's leaving the old vote instead of an actual unvote.

Activity isn't necessarily an alignment tell. For Egix at least I can say I've seen them be low activity as town, and in a mish mash game I ran as a scum role that is specifically trying to look as town as possible (instead of town enough to get someone else elimmed). I might have read a game he was in as scum, but I don't remember one and I've definitely not been involved in one.

@muh - I wasn't talking about anyone specifically with my question about scum intent for the way you've lurked, just the general feel from the game as a whole turning in your direction. You were a good policy elim if that activity level continued but a policy elim in general is a last resort or a "oh god I don't want this in ELo".

My thoughts were people seemed to be scum reading you for it, and if you are strategically lurking as scum (as opposed to, y'know, busy) and you have a choice to pull yourself up when you get pressured, you do. You have to be genuinely busy or very confident in being able to pull off TSTBS otherwise.

However, no one feels town enough to you to even give a slight lean?

@AGamblingPig - that's a weird way to phrase something about a group of 3 you are included in. Why do you think that?

I'm a lowposter in general, really. But yeah, in the Secret H game I had no idea what to say most of the time :/

I've played with !scum and !town egix. Low energy, low posting for both alignments. Not particularly aggressive either.

what was your read of egix at this point?

Null

[72offsuit]

@ Fferyllt and spangled.

Thanks for replacing in, but do need reads lists asap.

[72offsuit]

Im seeing a lot of questions, not a lot of firms stances, despite 2 days of material, albeit w lurkfest.

[72offsuit]

Sry, alternate hydra account slip.

[72offsuit]

fferyllt (2): 72offsuit, muh316
muh316 (2): safebet222, Mizzytastic
Spangled (1): Egix96
72offsuit (1): JDye, Spangled

Not voting (1): , fferyllt

[72offsuit]

Ill do muh if noone else is willing to join the c4 ff wagon

[72offsuit]

fferyllt (2): 72offsuit, muh316
muh316 (2): safebet222, Mizzytastic
Spangled (1): Egix96
72offsuit (2): JDye, Spangled

Not voting (1): , fferyllt

[72offsuit]

Im Australia timezone, so dont expect a claim from me if u wagon me

[72offsuit]

Wow. Jeez. I'm sorry, fferyllt, I am way too tired to consider your thoughts over the last few pages, or even make a real comment. Actually, the last four or five pages I read but didn't really think about terribly much; I'm tired and most of it is god-awful 72-JD spat. However, for most of the other pages, I read and commented, so here is a catch-up part 2:

Spoiler: catch-up part 2, electric boogaloo

I like 255, I can definitely feel the lack of 'meshedness' so far.

72, you're so jumpy, dude. You seem to build cases out of single posts repeatedly; 266 is one.

And, then, see, right after that 72 went for c4; 276 and 277.

My wagons in order:

72
Muh
Apig

In the meantime let's give folks an even narrower choice.

UNVOTE: 72offsuit VOTE: muh316

Uh these two posts together are really weird. If 72's your highest priority, why switch to muh?

Safebet read muh as neutral but now they're their second favourite elim candidate? What's muh done to move them from neutral to above Pig for an elim? If you think it's 72/muh (don't really think we should be looking at game solves a this point) why not keep your vote on 72?

Fair question...I only have one scum read... I've had my vote there for the better part of 3 days... The wagon isn't going anywhere today... Sometimes you don't get what you want. We have to get moving so I have a choice of 3 other wagons, time for option 2. Even a scum!72off recognizes that.

The question is why would you insist on leaving your vote somewhere that isn't providing pressure to move the game forward?

This isn't really how it works; if you have a scumread and people aren't voting for them, fight to convince the town that you're right. Don't just move off somewhere else. Yes you didn't have a ton of time but goodness you really weren't doing anything to move the 72 wagon forward.

305 echoes my thoughts there.

I've spent the better part of two hours looking over the game... It's time for bed...

I really liked what Egix has brought since Sunday afternoon. I'm getting town vibes from him. I really like the fact that he saw the 72off had so many scum leans. I don't get it either. I disagree with his cyl read however mainly because I wouldn't expect cyl to have any instincts as she seems to be brand new to forum Mafia. Maybe I'm off on that point... thoughts Egix?

Cyl - hated her last post... but I still think that it comes from not knowing how to respond than some sort of scumplay. The lurking over the last few days is annoying and I completely understand why people are on her wagon.

I'm hoping to get some clarity on which of the viable wagons is best...

I don't really see how seeing that someone has lots of scumleans is AI. All it takes is counting.

315; oh my goodness get your act together 72, dude. You must have called half the playerlist scum by now, with a great deal of confidence on most of those of calls.
Dude.
You find scum everywhere you look.
This is looking worse and worse; your progression from each read to the next is next to nothing.

I'll case 72, once I'm done reading. I'd do it now, but it could be that some incredible remark he makes in the next few hundred posts totally flips my view of him, or he explains all of his progression in one massively detailed post, or something like that, so I'll wait 'til I'm done.

And 316 has nothing of substance.
And 317 fails to answer to the point JDye brings up (he implies that he re-read and used new information, but doesn't say what it is!), and just moves against him in thoroughly baseless, evidence-less pushing.

320 from JDye hits the nail on the head, but it fails to take into account, too, the progression (or lack thereof) of 72's reads; he seems just to jump from one scumread to another, and push that until he finds a new one.

I don't like that JDye doesn't, then, push 72 as scum, but I'm fairly sure on him being town because of how his thoughts on 72 have aligned with mine, and his catch-up, among other things.

Ah I don't like 336. I mean, it could be playstyle difference, and a few people have done it, IIRC, but why would you not push for your scumread? Yes, compromise lynches are reasonable, but you should fight as long as possible to get your wagon through.

I kind of can't blame the town for the pig's death; I mean, 348, 'enjoy the egg on your face'? really?

Woah but 352 is out of the blue. Jeez.

366 is just weird; why, exactly, would you have one scum on muh and one on the pig? According to whom?
(ooh, look at me; the objective case)
I mean, scum on town lynches is often true, but why can't you have two scum on pig?
Why any scum on muh?

Jailed players are slightly more likely to be scum who attempted a kill, rather than town who were targeted.

Why?

Good lord 72. 419 just hurts me. Is this the sixth person you've called scum?
You've pushed votes, but you have never, ever, backed down from a vote, and said 'no I was wrong here's why', you've just pushed slot after slot. You have no progression.

I don't see your points here; 'trying to figure out the game', yes, it's vague, but have you asked him to explain it? Question first, please shoot later.
As to him having two of your scumreads in common, but then putting you above cyl — that means so little. That's not scummy; people can share reads with each other but still suspect each other. I mean, there's only so many people here, and your view on someone is all but binary, scum vs. town, so surely people who think each other are scum are bound to agree on some points.

And then you say that you can 'really vibe' with 324, but then say that town!c4 has 'pretty slim pickings'.

And then you vote for JDye in 428. Man.

Man and then he jumps in 445, through the slimmest 'I can see this one post coming from a town!JDye', right after pressure is put on him by, guess, who, JDye.
And his justification for switching is, 'c4's case against Egix doesn't make sense to me'... Dude, if I voted for everyone who made a case that I didn't understand, I'd be be playing... wait... exactly like you...
The amount of unreasoned flip-flopping.

And then 447... man...

449; safebet sees it, though he doesn't push it.

I get Mizzy's thoughts on 72 in 451, but at the same time, all his activity has been so scummy. Sometimes scum effort, even when they don't need to; store up for the lean years, really.

I agree with 455, that's what I've said. It's such a small reason to change.

He is putting effort in though. Not to defend himself either but to try and produce reads. And a decent part of the player list has him as scummy and it's not changed his playstyle so I don't think he's doing it to get people to think he's town - if it is scum!72 I'm the only one he's really pocketed with it and he'd have found it easier if he didn't scum read over half the player list and hadn't been so hyperbolic. This game is dead, he doesn't need to produce that much text to look like he's trying to contribute.

Eh, yeah, but everything he posts is crap and he dodges actual questions put to him. Like, sure, plenty suspect him but do you see many votes on him yet? Not really.

And JDye has it right again in 458; 72 backs straight off when pressure is put on him, and just finds someone else to tunnel for a few posts.

Yeah, 463 is definitely a consideration; just because he doesn't need to effort so much doesn't necessarily mean he wouldn't.
People aren't always logical.

Noone has even bothered to comment on my theory of town vs town wagons = low activity from scum on day one.

Barely anyone has given 2 shits about my ISOs.

He is efforting so he is scum, herp derp. Gee im a good scumhunter.

No one's bothered about your ISOs because they blatantly contradict things you've said before.

Stating someone's cases arent groundbreaking actually suggests you know im town, otherwise you would just say my cases are FALSE rather than UNCONVINCING

These semantics hurt me.

@72 what moved JDye temporarily from lockscum to scum read for you, before you moved him back?

Also if you liked my response to your initial push on my why didn't you act that way at the time?

He was always a scumread. Noone is strong scum day 1, despite what i write.

Yeah, that's the key thing here. You've called everyone strong scum, and plenty on day 1. You made those reads, and then you just... switched them. You never explained why you moved away from those cases, you just... jumped. You're not doing anything.

Will probably look in more detail when I can be bothered to get on desktop and once I've got the two assignments due tomorrow finished.

Since I've at least started to respond to your ISO diving which you seemed very eager for me to do, perhaps you could answer my questions?

I have ZERO incentive to do this.

You are making ZERO effort to consider the possibility of !townMe and are not even remotely interested in looking for a second "scumread".

Which points to !scumyou 70% of the time and useless town the reamining 30% of the time

He's not putting effort into considering town!you because, a) he's confident you're scum because of all your baseless pushes and jumping, and, b) a lot of his time is taken up by responding to random, irrelevant crap from you.

Cyl and Muh are

light townleans

who have

contributed next to nothing to this game.

Muh is scummier than cyl.

Do I smell... an oxymoron?

Damn straight you do.

Gah, I'm sorry I sound so bitter and generally insulting about 72. Just his every post seems so illogical and insulting, and I'm annoyed at the amount of crap that flows forth. I'm mostly annoyed that I have to read it, really; these last few pages have been awful.

In 559 I like that Mizzy considers something they were thinking about before; they talked about the time frame, and then realised, 'wait maybe not', and this post is the product of them thinking that through.

However

, I don't really see the point they're making about muh. I might reread the bit they're talking about in day one, but right now I just can't remember what went down.

Bit of a TL;DR — 72's baseless movement from vote to vote, each time so confident but then backing down when challenged, his inability to answer real questions about his posts and justify them, and his lack of progression from read to read, his constant self-contradiction... Scum, or town that scum won't kill and that I would

hate

in LyLo.
VOTE: 72offsuit

We have 16 hours, and 72 has no defense. His lack of progression I just keep coming back to again and again.

I am too tired to keep thinking about this game. I don't have the energy left to ISO him, but I have something to do early tomorrow that will last for several hours, and I'm afraid, has priority over mafia; I probably won't be around for the rest of this day. Please consider what me and JDye have said about 72, his complete lack of progression and complete lack of justification. True, he may have efforted, but very little he's said has been worth much. So much flip-flopping, so much flailing, especially, at the end towards JD. This isn't town. Look over him yourself; see how little he's said that someone else hasn't or that he hasn't later contradicted. Look at how he backs down when challenged on a read.

Goodnight.

No offense, but this is easily one of the most garbage cases against someone I've yet to encounter.

HYPOTHETICAL:
You register for a newbie game, either be it from the start or replacing in.
You notice: the game has ZERO ACTIVITY, one of the LEAST ACTIVE GAMES in the newbie queue.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
so what does good pro-town TOWN do:

1) Make AGGRESSIVE plays to EVOKE OTHERS to TAKE A STANCE

2) there is SO LITTLE CONTENT and yet you expect confidence and SCUMREAD VOTE SWTICHING
town DO NOT KNOW who scum is.

If anything vote switching is a TOWN TELL.

[72offsuit]

Please wagon me.

Enjoy the last few days with 0 posting players.

[72offsuit]

Mizzy town.

c4/ff scum.

[72offsuit]

Spangled switch toa scumread of me once others voiced willingness for my wagon ....... scummy.

[72offsuit]

If you think !scumMe, after playing so many newbie games,

scum agenda is

1) pick a fight with literally OVER HALF the player register

I have butted heads with Mizzy, Hunter/safebet, JDye, muh, and c4/ff

If you really think i do a completete 180 deegrees from my usual scummeta, sure vote for me


But if you LITERALLY TAKE 20 seconds to think about it, you will know it makes ZERO SENSE from !scumMe perspective.

[72offsuit]

actually make that 6 players. I pushed against Pig hard.

[72offsuit]

if you are town, vote to kick C4/FF

[72offsuit]

@Mizzy - dont be paranoid. You had good reason to vote for c4. Please vote for c4/ff

[72offsuit]

Ill wagon everyone but mizzy.

[72offsuit]

Who cares how our votes have interacted

Y r u trying to solve i teractions when we have had had only 1 flip

[72offsuit]

Ur approaching the game wrong imo

[72offsuit]

First decide who u scymread and townread, THEN work from there as to interactions.

Ue working backwards which is dping u no favours

[72offsuit]

72off why should anyone care to cooperate with you when all you do is take them for a spin on your scum carousel?

?

[72offsuit]

If ur convinced im scum y r u not voting for me?

[72offsuit]

By the DADV logic some people have applied 72 or ff are scum right? This is way busier than day 1 end. And those two slots presented that logic.

Safebet - how do you feel about fferyllt if you think 72/JDye is TvT?


72, it's the feeling unsure with your progression on me and JDye being absolutely right about how our votes have interacted making me paranoid.


I am kinda uncomfortable with fferyllt not voting, we need to compromise here but it seems like she might be trying to not have to get away with being the hammer to avoid making a stance. She's produced lots of thoughts about the game, and she needs to in that slot probably, but not enough to vote.

His lack of vorte is telling. He is worries how scummy gis vote will look. So he waits to deadline... Oh i had to, no lick is bad for town.... Absolving him of responsibility.

[72offsuit]

Mizzy just read ffs posts. There is literally nothing town in those posts

[72offsuit]

Reread c4.

[72offsuit]

Read the slot from both perspectives.
1. Assume the slot is town. Try to find town rationale in the posts.

2. Do the same, assuming the slot is scum.

[72offsuit]

Mizzy, can u pls just give us ur preferred kicks.

[72offsuit]

There is literally ZERO chance all the slots pushing me are town.

[72offsuit]

Kinda don't want to lynch ffery today given the value she's bringing to the game, though the slot (C4) is sus.

We are scrambling to consolidate a kick, and we have players like muh tating who they will NOT kick but offering no progression to the game.

[72offsuit]

I'm scum reading what feels like you could be making sure you align with me. I'm scum reading your progression on me as feeling like excuses after the fact to cover inconsistency. I'm thinking you and JDye is SvT cos I feel like TvT it just starts again at thread unlock and dominates the day.

I'm town reading you for the reasons you said you wouldn't do this as scum since before you said them. Loud piss everyone off dissenting view players are usually town unless meta evidence.

What it comes down to is you voting where I'm heading cos that's when it stops being a dissenting view. And it's happened twice and it's spooked me

Why do you think its not spooking me?

[72offsuit]

I'm scum reading what feels like you could be making sure you align with me. I'm scum reading your progression on me as feeling like excuses after the fact to cover inconsistency. I'm thinking you and JDye is SvT cos I feel like TvT it just starts again at thread unlock and dominates the day.

I'm town reading you for the reasons you said you wouldn't do this as scum since before you said them. Loud piss everyone off dissenting view players are usually town unless meta evidence.

What it comes down to is you voting where I'm heading cos that's when it stops being a dissenting view. And it's happened twice and it's spooked me

Once again though, why would i push against JDye so heavily, when i could have continued pushing muh, or urself, or cyl with zero consequences
Once again it makes ZERO sense

[72offsuit]

ESPECIALLY after a NO KILL night

[72offsuit]

If you read my ISOs, it was his 315, 316, 317 posts or whatever those conecutive posts were.

[72offsuit]

We voted together, BECAUSE i made a strong case against c4 which u agreed with.

Y is that cause for paranoia?

[72offsuit]

FURTHERMORE, what scummotivation do i have to turn around my read on ur slot?

[72offsuit]

If u have time Mizzy, read the thread looking for everyone;s attitude/transitions towards ur slot.

[72offsuit]

I dont mean to dump all the work on u, but Im confident in my read on you, and literally NOONE else is cooperating.

[72offsuit]

Im more than happy to vote muh if u want me to disprove that theory

[72offsuit]

Liability in KILO anyways

[72offsuit]

If its town fferyllt one of 72 and muh is probably scum.

If it's town 72 I agree one of JDye and Spangled is prob scum.

I retreated to muh out of paranoia and the way he joined the c4 wagon bugging me.


VOTE: fferyllt

I think town ff has caught up enough to vote. And it's time to accept I might be wrong instead of waffling and go with what bugged me before people exerted charisma at me.

Pedit: I only skimmed your c4 case actually. I had my own stuff bugging me there

ok

[72offsuit]

You had better be right or scum cos I'll have a hard time not voting you tomorrow if ff flips town

Fair i guess.

What r ur thoughts on safebet?

[72offsuit]

fferyllt (3): 72offsuit, muh316, Mizzytastic
muh316 (1): safebet222,
Spangled (1): Egix96
72offsuit (2): JDye, Spangled

Not voting (1): , fferyllt

[72offsuit]

FF at E-2

[72offsuit]

Spangle choosing to vote for me over muh and FF, 2 super viable wagons is REALLY bad

[72offsuit]

Making that useless 2-2-2-1 spread

[72offsuit]

I feel like spang's attack on me felt really opportunistic. Prefer Spang kick over JDye.

[72offsuit]

Lets not forget that scum know which setup we are in by the way. Doc and jailkeeper dont appear in the same setup

[72offsuit]

Not exact setup, but narrowed down to just a few grid squares from the setup matrix

[72offsuit]

That's a lot of townposting.

72, I hope I'm not up for the day yet. I don't have a full reads list. However, my thoughts are consolidated enough that I feel sure I won't be voting you or Mizzy today. Probably not JDye either.

I need a couple more hours sleep and then I'll get back to this.

THe concerning thing is your mindest sseems like it is on who NOT to kick rather than a town mindest of trying to come up with a strong preference for a kick given the fast approaching deadline.

[72offsuit]

If ur convinced im scum y r u not voting for me?

I'm not convinced, I've made that clear.

Yeah, i know, just wanted ur response

[72offsuit]

Im awake.

This is going to sound really stupid after my hard tunnel on c4/ff but given ffs posting and effort vs muh who i cant even tell whomthey scumread and given mizzy thinks muh and me is an option, i think we just kick muh.

[72offsuit]

Im leanfing towards 1scum on my wagon amongst jdye spang and egix. 2nd scum in muh and ff

[72offsuit]

I skimmed over safebets iso from a town perspective which i dont think ive really done and the slot sounded much better.

[72offsuit]

Mizzy, u still wanna do muh?

[72offsuit]

I think if safebet was sum their posts in this thread so far, they could have steered their vote onto me without copping any flak for it

[72offsuit]

Safebet, agree with any of my wagon analysis?
What r ur thoughts on the vote progression and the 3 viable wagon gamestate

[72offsuit]

Is anyone else here?

[72offsuit]

Muh and ff scumteam is out given their cross voting anf my viable wagon

[72offsuit]

If i was scum with jdye spang or egix my scumbuddy would just vpte for muh or i wudv voted for muh lhf earlier given resistance to the c40 ff wagon going thru