[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/ext/alfredoramos/seometadata/event/listener.php on line 114: Undefined array key 9012965 [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/ext/alfredoramos/seometadata/event/listener.php on line 114: Trying to access array offset on value of type null [Game Over] Newbie 1784 - Escape Room - Mafiascum.net
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Post #8 (isolation #0) » Sun Mar 26, 2017 3:49 am
Postby TesXX »
Let the games begin!
The best way to start off the game is to claim BP or not BP. This is because BP claims won't be taken as seriously if you claim it later in the game, like if it's lynch or lose or if you're about to get lynched. It's a stupid idea for scum to claim BP this early since there's no reason to already think they'll be lynched. In the rare case that scum claims bulletproof, then either the cop (if there is one) or the bulletproof (if there is one) should counterclaim. The doctor shouldn't counterclaim, but if the setup is Column C then the doctor will be the only one to counterclaim(we wait for counterclaims first). If there is no bulletproof claims, then the tracker (if there is one) should claim because they know there is a doctor.
I think that's about everything about the strategy.
We also start off with random votes, so VOTE: StealthyNoodle because there's no type of argument saying that name is townish.
Also
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Post #9 (isolation #1) » Sun Mar 26, 2017 3:55 am
Postby TesXX »
BP = Bulletproof
In post 8, TesXX wrote:Let the games begin!
The best way to start off the game is to claim BP or not BP. This is because BP claims won't be taken as seriously if you claim it later in the game, like if it's lynch or lose or if you're about to get lynched. It's a stupid idea for scum to claim BP this early since there's no reason to already think they'll be lynched. In the rare case that scum claims bulletproof, then either the cop (if there is one) or the bulletproof (if there is one) should counterclaim. The doctor shouldn't counterclaim, but if the setup is Column C then the doctor will be the only one to counterclaim(we wait for counterclaims first). If there is no bulletproof claims, then the tracker (if there is one) should claim because they know there is a doctor.
I think that's about everything about the strategy.
We also start off with random votes, so VOTE: StealthyNoodle because there's no type of argument saying that name is townish.
Also
Not BP
Also, if you counterclaim DO NOT say which role you are. Just say "I counterclaim" or something among those lines.
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Post #15 (isolation #2) » Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:11 am
Postby TesXX »
Loopdan wrote:Does that mean you are explicitly not claiming BP or that you are refusing to make a claim one way or another?
Probably the second because he says he isn't claiming
anything
.
@Srceenplay all I'm asking is for you to say you're BP or not BP. If you're the BP, then I understand being scared of getting nightkilled, but you're also probably not going to get lynched since scum claiming BP is stupid. Even if you do get lynched you caught mafia.
If you AREN'T the BP, then claiming would help the town if nobody claims BP and the possibly existing tracker would claim, outing their reports on later days while being protected by the doc.
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Post #19 (isolation #4) » Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:23 am
Postby TesXX »
In post 17, nancy wrote:
I do not like this strat at all, I think it's a bad way to teach newbies to play and I refuse to claim either way.
I've explained twice why it's a good strategy and it was created by Radiant Cowbells, not me.
Also, if people just stop claiming then all the other not BP claims weren't worth much.
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Post #21 (isolation #5) » Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:39 am
Postby TesXX »
nancy wrote:Actually I just realized I'm not technically an SE lol. But yes, the above still applies!
I have read your explanations and I have seen the strategy in play and I think it's a bad way to teach newbies to play. I do not want this to be a topic of discussion when we should be focusing on RVS so please drop it.
How is it a bad way to teach newbies to play? It protects both the tracker and the BP and gives us knowledge of what our threat is and what we have to fight it. It stops scum from claiming OS BP when they're about to be lynched. If you have a really, really good explanation to why this is a bad strategy then go ahead please.
In post 8, RadiantCowbells wrote:So, over the last few months while I was not playing Mafia I have been working on strategies to up town's winrate in this setup and since I have finally rolled town I am going to put them into action.
The correct play at the beginning of D1 in this setup is for the 1-Shot Bulletproof, if any, to claim. This helps town immensely in numerous setups. Why am I advocating this?
1) It is f***ing insane for scum to try to claim 1-shot BP in this situation. It is an insane risk play which forces a 1v1 in 5/6 setups and gets minor towncred in 1/6.
2) If the setup is Roleblocker/Jailkeeper/1-Shot BP, it's easy for the BP claim to be disbelieved. The claim coming at the start of the game makes it far more trustworthy.
3) If the setup is Tracker/1-Shot BP/Goon, the Tracker knows that there is no doc and can be a lot safer on claiming. Note that mathematically the correct play is to target the outed tracker if the other PR is not known; so little potential gain is made here.
4) If the setup is Tracker/Doc/Goon, a living tracker will know by the lack of a BP claim that there is a doctor. He can then claim safely and be doctor protected the entire game. Which sucks because I'm going to get guaranteed nightkilled but I'll get over it.
Since the 1-Shot Bulletproof doesn't actually net town a mislynch by being hit it is not actually specifically valuable for it to bait the hit.
This does come at the cost of narrowing down the game possibilities for scum: but I believe that the reward is well worth the price.
nancy wrote:How is it a bad way to teach newbies to play? It protects both the tracker and the BP and gives us knowledge of what our threat is and what we have to fight it. It stops scum from claiming OS BP when they're about to be lynched. If you have a really, really good explanation to why this is a bad strategy then go ahead please.
It puts the focus on the setup rather than the play.
The play is heavily influenced by the setup. So focusing on the setup helps with the play.
There is enough setup-spec on MS, we don't need to encourage that. Newbie queue should be about learning to play, not solving the setup to churn out a win as easily and quickly as possible.
MiniDeathStar wrote:Play to win.
nancy wrote:There's also a tendency for games to stall out when a newbie lands a BP role PM because the newbie BP just loses interest, and scum have less ability to fakeclaim, which is an important thing for newbie scum to learn how to do.
The amount of times scum actually claim BP is so miniscule that this strategy is really not necessary to ward that off as if it's some threat.
In post 57, TesXX wrote:@nancy how does claiming BP or not BP f up RVS?
Look at this thread for evidence. RVS has been stilted by the philosophical differences in your insistence that people claim and my refusal to claim. Discussing theory at this point is not at all conducive to scumhunting, which is what we should be doing and which is what RVS is designed to facilitate.
Couldn't we claim stuff, and then post all of the random voting after(if it's even needed at that point)?
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Post #140 (isolation #21) » Sun Mar 26, 2017 3:55 pm
Postby TesXX »
nancy wrote:I don't want a BP claim or a Doc/Tracker claim on the board before Day 1 has even begun. It kills the game. It's not fun or interesting.
I get that the Road to Rome is made for teaching newbies and that it's very very important to have fun in these games, but it is still a competition. I find 3 way lylos to be the most interesting ways to end the game but that doesn't mean I'll purposely get myself lynched to make that happen.
It's simply churning mechanics and not what mafia is about, not how newbies should be learning to play.
The mechanics play a big role in the game, and the newbies
should
learn to use them to their advantage.
Tes has gotten away with being read as Town while producing 0 content whatsoever simply by pushing this strat and that is a perfect example of how crap it is.
The reason all my content has been about the strategy is because you haven't claimed yet and I want to start finding who gets rope.
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Post #141 (isolation #22) » Sun Mar 26, 2017 3:57 pm
Postby TesXX »
Lol, I spent all that time on my lagging mobile device making a post that wouldn't post, and then after I post I find that nancy has already claimed, rest in rip me
In post 140, TesXX wrote:The reason all my content has been about the strategy is because you haven't claimed yet and I want to start finding who gets rope.
Nah, I think you're hiding behind this stuff in lieu of actual scumhunting as an excuse to seem to be doing something without actually doing anything.
Edit.
Alright, so if I'm scum, then what would I do in this situation if I were town?
nancy wrote:Cool, I caught scum on page 6. 146 is what a guilty conscience looks like, btw.
No, I made 146 because 142 didn't make sense.
Thanks for answering my question by the way.
I assume you're being ironic? I believe I've answered the question in previous posts, but your post also answers the question. (Think about why for a minute if you're not sure how that is.) But to elaborate on how I caught you, the post betrays your guilty conscience. The question doesn't come from a Town mindset as I understand it and doesn't lead anywhere except back unto itself. The way that you phrased it combined with the way that it comes out of nowhere (I didn't even explicitly call you scum, for instance) tell me that you have an active sense of guilt (which only scum can have) and were trying overly hard to pose the question in the way that a townie might pose it. The end result just comes off stilted and awkward.
Alright.
So if I'm scum, make a post with how a town player would answer it.
In post 167, TesXX wrote:So if I'm scum, make a post with how a town player would answer it.
I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand what you're asking of me. What is the connection between you being scum and how a Town slot would answer? Answer what? Could you try rephrasing maybe?
In post 167, TesXX wrote:So if I'm scum, make a post with how a town player would answer it.
I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand what you're asking of me. What is the connection between you being scum and how a Town slot would answer? Answer what? Could you try rephrasing maybe?
I meant to say
ask
, not
answer
. My bad.
I still don't follow, unfortunately. Let's go back to 146. What were you trying achieve there?
I was trying to figure out why you thought what you did in 142. By knowing what you think a town mindset does in my slot, it gives me more info on your FoS.
In post 200, TesXX wrote:I was trying to figure out why you thought what you did in 142. By knowing what you think a town mindset does in my slot, it gives me more info on your FoS.
I think I understand you? Wrt 146 specifically, it really depends on personality, but the generic townie response I'd be looking for there would be course-correction, provided you felt my point was fair. If you didn't think my point was fair, a healthy response would be to flesh out why and try and dialogue with me to resolve it. If you did think my point was fair, a healthy response would be to respond by incorporating the criticisms and move forwards (start pushing the gamestate). Instead, you asked me a vague question with no real trajectory. The answer to what you should've been doing all game so far, rather than emptily pushing the BP claim strat, would be scumhunting, as I've said before. But that would require you being Town, since scum can't actually scumhunt (they can only pretend to).
The reason I thought your point in 142 wasn't fair was because it seemed to be an assumption of scummy behavior without backing it up, as if you were just trying to find crap to push against me. I am working on a post including reads in it, although there will likely be a lot of null reads unless I reread stuff that particularly stands out.
In post 227, TesXX wrote:@nancy what is it that makes you townread Pine this much?
They seem to have history. I don't think there's much more to it, but I don't know.
I know but even if you have a lot of experience with playing with someone, I still don't get why you'd get such a strong tr on them when they have nine posts.
In post 206, WhyMafia wrote:Why are you so sure pine is town? He made only a few posts and they were simply to defend you. I'm just interested in hearing your reasoning
Pine and I are friends, and I like to think I can get a pretty good read on him early on. Combination of gut and recognizing patterns.
But he only made nine posts. What patterns did you see in his posts that made you TR him?
In post 250, Chronicle wrote:Understand it from her POV. The whole point of a newbie is to learn how to play the game, getting a hang of forming reads, associations, learning lingo, and practicing skills like fake-claiming and ccing etc.
Can't we do this while playing a normal game, trying to obtain our win-cons at the same time? Do you mean we shouldn't be suspicious, because she's simply being helpful?
I also find it suspicious how she proclaims she's an SE, here to assist the IC in teaching! Then corrects herself six minutes later, saying that she just realized she's not "technically" SE, but will take the teacher-role anyways. I'd like to think it's very likely she already knew she wasn't an SE in this game.
What's so suspicious about that?
And again, it's more about the fact that she's proclaiming she'll avoid playing win-con, even when it's borderline
In post 254, StealthyNoodle wrote:
I also find it suspicious how she proclaims she's an SE, here to assist the IC in teaching! Then corrects herself six minutes later, saying that she just realized she's not "technically" SE, but will take the teacher-role anyways. I'd like to think it's very likely she already knew she wasn't an SE in this game.
What's so suspicious about that?
In the case she
didn't realize
she wasn't SE:
There must've been something made her realize she wasn't, within the time span of 6 minutes(the time between her posts),
while
focusing on a response for you:
In post 20, nancy wrote:Actually I just realized I'm not technically an SE lol. But yes, the above still applies!
I have read your explanations and I have seen the strategy in play and I think it's a bad way to teach newbies to play. I do not want this to be a topic of discussion when we should be focusing on RVS so please drop it.
In the case she already
was aware
she wasn't SE:
She could use this as an excuse for feeling obliged to teach us about the game, rather than focusing on her win-con. She never had to mention this, but the fact that she does "justifies" her reason to not claim anything.
You don't need to think you're an SE slot to want to teach newbies.
Had to check, and it looks like she applied as an SE. I might be firing shots in the dark here, but shouldn't she be placed as SE in another game then, instead of taking up new-player spot here? Is this because there's a lack of new players?
SEs can replace into as many games as the want I think. She took up a new player spot in pregame since that player didn't confirm their role
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Post #292 (isolation #39) » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:23 am
Postby TesXX »
I wouldn't lynch someone who's barely posted/hasn't posted unless the few posts they've made scream "SCUM" or if I have pretty decent townreads on everybody.
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Post #301 (isolation #43) » Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:35 pm
Postby TesXX »
In post 299, WhyMafia wrote:
I'm kind of confused why there is a push for the lynch of pine. While it's bad to lose an active town, chances are they are vanilla townie and we can base future Lynchs off the reactions/comments of others. A pine lynch without him defending himself could cause us to lose an important town role. Not only that, we gain far less info from a pine lynch
This kind of post is why I'm scumreading you, Tes. You haven't been involving in pushing the gamestate forwards at all, you haven't been scumhunting. You need to get involved in more than a superficial way and try and pick at people's arguments and find motivation behind what people are doing. Even if you're scum, you should be trying to practice those skills and not hide by cutesy posts like the above.
I have been. I've talked about your reasoning multiple times and I've asked you a question about your Pine TR. I'm wondering why you think Noodle is objectively obvscum. I'm also going to make a post about Srceenplay. It's a stretch to say I haven't been pushing the gamestate forwards at all. I haven't developed as many reads as some people because, it's not always this way but I generally don't develop reads early.
Note: The following is stream-of-consciousness as I read, so expect things to change as I go.
Page 1
-Post 17 (and subsequent posts) leads me to think nancy is Town. This isn't based on standard tactics or anything, it's largely based on my relationship with nancy. I have a sense that she tends to play a bit fast and loose when she's Town, especially in the early game. A first-post scumclaim-in-jest isn't something I see her doing as scum. Subsequent shenanigans over the next few pages suggests she's trying to feel out who's going to be too eager to jump on her, feeling out who's going to take the bait. That strikes me as genuine scumhunting.
-WhyMafia jumping on Chronicle for being vote 2 on Stealthy instead of LoopDan for being the third vote strikes me as odd and disingenuous, and if this weren't a Newbie game I'd be all over that. We'll see how it plays out.
-WhyMafia then jumping onto nancy looks like scum falling into her trap. Definitely putting a pin in that.
Page 2
-Not much to observe here, nancy continues to come off as Town.
Page 3
-Pine enters, nancy interaction is pretty obvTown.
Page 4
-Stealthy's entrance looks like newScum. Praises TesXX and LoopDan for empty reasons, votes nancy as the most dynamic player present. Does not support BP-claiming strategy, agrees with nancy, but does it anyway? Then flips around and says she's not supporting a pro-Town agenda? Naaaahhh. Also as noted in Post 90, exaggerating charges against nancy.
-WhyMafia continues to make moves that come off as opportunistic, specifically moving against LoopDan for a page 1 RVS vote. Hesitating a little on my scumread though, not sure even newScum would do this.
Page 5
-A little concerned about LoopDan's push against non-claimers in the BP strategy. Citing prior results does not guarantee future success. This looks like a fallacy of some kind. Also not a fan of his dig at nancy about her statement about teaching>wincon (though I superficially agree with him, the best way to teach is to stick to wincon). As a player new to SE-status, nancy is allowed to be wrong about meta.
@nancy: Per your statement in 122, please claim either "Not BP" or "BP". While I will be interested in moderating a post-game discussion on the strategy in MD, for now it is the order of the day. Suffice to say that, if you are BP, there is no real downside to claiming it. If you aren't, there still isn't a downside. That was the whole basis of the proposal, that there was no downside for Town, and it limits scum fakeclaiming options.
Page 6
-Conversation veers into theory at this point, so some general observations: Chronicle strikes me as classic newTown, trying to figure stuff out but not really knowing how. TesXX has been focusing almost exclusively on theory and strategy discussion, with a surprising dearth of real content. Suspicions at this point include StealtyNoodle, WhyMafia, TesXX, maybe LoopDan. TRs (Town reads) include nancy and Chronicle. Still need sorting on Srceenplay and bjc/CogMachine.
Page 7
-nancy's push against TesXX at the bottom of 6/top of 7 doesn't make any damn sense. However, what's much more incisive is TesXX's reaction to it. His reaction to strong suspicion screams "I am scum frustrated at being caught for the wrong reasons." This is a classic tell, but is sometimes hard to distinguish from "Town suspected for bad reasons." This one definitely strikes me as the former. Post 167 in particular raises a red flag.
-Ha, I knew I was right on Chronicle. 168 is the Towniest of Townposts. Objective-driven, shows evidence of doing research, saltiness directed at people who aren't helping accomplish wincon. Chronicle's a hard TR now.
Page 8
-Getting cold feet on my WhyMafia SR now. Meandering uncertainty looks more like newTown than newScum. Some of his reads in 194 are hard to push, where I see newScum going for easier targets.
-Much of this page was devoted to discussion of lurker theory, so I'm going to slip into IC Mode...
Page 9
-Interactions between StealthyNoodle and WhyMafia don't strike me as scum theatre, especially given lack of daytalk (I double-checked; post 3)
-Just because someone is posting elsewhere doesn't mean they are intentionally ignoring the game. Playing multiple games at once is a significant time investment, and when one has limited time, one must often prioritize games they're caught up on. I was quite a few pages behind at this point.
Page 10
-Not a ton to say here, though the vultures circling over my absence are really obvious. StealthyNoodle, TesXX, and WhyMafia spend the whole page setting up pushes against me and her. Taking down a Town IC and dynamic SE would virtually guarantee a scum win. Not sure completely which two of the three is scum, but I'm pretty sure it's in that set of {Noodle, TesXX, WhyMafia}. Still, this is stream-of-consciousness, so it's possible that later events will suggest differently.
Page 11
-Noodle attacks on nancy continue to be trying to make something out of nothing. This strikes me strongly as someone trying to take down a threat.
-
I do not endorse Tracker-claiming
: The whole point of BP-claiming is that it limits scum fakeclaiming opportunities without a drawback for Town. Having a Tracker claim is BEGGING for scum to roleblock or kill a major investigative role. Heavy suspicion of TesXX for suggesting this.
Page 12
-LoopDan pagetop endorsement of Tes!Town and Noodle!Town just gobsmacks me. No.
-Noodle 279 "not sure about Tes" at this stage is another "wtf" moment. Tes has plenty of content out, a read should definitely be possible. Nothing at this stage looks like scumbuddies.
-Srceenplay 290 out of left field, strikes me as newTown, insufficient evidence for a strong read.
Page 13
-WhyMafia 303 strikes me as gamesolving. Asking incisive motivations-based questions of the hardest-to-sort active player.
-Tentatively agreeing with nancy 314, LoopDan looks like stubborn Town SE sticking to bad reads.
-CogMachine catchup post shouts newTown. TRing TesXX for very incorrect reasons (obsession with setup rather than reads is scummy, not Towny). I'd object to the srceenplay SR, but the guy has less content than I do and he's actually been posting consistently. Pressure is good.
Page 14
-Noodle continues being scummy. Cog continues to exhibit gamesolving traits. I'm liking his push on Srceenplay, it vibes genuine.
-Noodle's 349 readslist in particular seems...opportunistic is the wrong word? Advantageous, convenient? He's looking to get rid of threats, keep allies, and butter up people not SRing him. Readslist seems calibrated to support this objective.
Page 15
-Noodle yet again, 368, throwing absolutely everything against the wall to see what sticks. Going after nancy for VT-claiming is particularly egregious. Fabricating NAI stuff into a scumread is not a Town tactic.
Page 16
-WhyMafia's saltiness in 376 is Towny. @WhyMafia - Still give reasons, even if it's scum asking. Openness is
always
usually
sometimes
in this case good, and scum aren't the only one who will read your reasoning.
-386 is goodposting
OKAY! Finally down. Very sorry this took so long. I'm going to stay current from here out.
Post
Post #404 (isolation #49) » Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:38 pm
Postby TesXX »
Pine wrote:-I do not endorse Tracker-claiming: The whole point of BP-claiming is that it limits scum fakeclaiming opportunities without a drawback for Town. Having a Tracker claim is BEGGING for scum to roleblock or kill a major investigative role. Heavy suspicion of TesXX for suggesting this.
A tracker and a Mafia Roleblocker CANNOT co exist.
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Post #446 (isolation #58) » Sat Apr 01, 2017 6:31 am
Postby TesXX »
CogMachine wrote:
Curious. What about nancy is scummy?
I explained some in 227, and while she did make a case against Noodle in 385 but I don't think it's enough evidence to say "objectively obvscum".
How do you feel about pine now?
Still null. While I pointed out what was wrong with his reasoning against tracker claiming, I don't think it would be something scum!Pine would push against me while knowing the flaw in his reason, so I'd say it's non alignment indicative.