Newbie 1826 Basketball Game Over

[Toto]

Sup

[Toto]

I haven't played in a long time but blackvoid was obvtown so I replaced him for an ez game.

[Toto]

Ok, I've read like 20% of the game and I know who the scum-team is. I'll tell you all tomorrow!

VOTE: No Lynch

[Toto]

UNVOTE:


Hey you guys want to try something like this instead? I can adapt it for 4v2.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=71757

[Toto]

BlackVoid was obvtown. Ill explain later.

Also, Please dont give more reads until everyone has decided wheather they want to try to hammertest or no-lynch.

[Toto]

Will vote no-lynch after Deimos is confirmed as replaced. Don't want his deadline to be extended (not really sure if this is how it works).

[Toto]

What doesn't matter?

[Toto]

Please do not hammer until Deimos is replaced. I replaced into a very late game so you guys can finish it. Please consider this as returning the favor.

[Toto]

the night phase will likely be on pause regardless.

There is no reason to take our chances. Or maybe

@mod can confirm that next day won't start until a replacement is found?

[Toto]

You scumfucks better kill me tonight

[Toto]

Please dont vote until ae have consensus. We are in lylo and scum can quick hammsr if onw town votss another town.

I dont care about how convinced you are. I will consider anyone voting a scum claim

[Toto]

If anyone has any doubts about my slot Im happy to explain why you should think again.

Ill post some reads in a few when I get to my computer

Pedit: replaced blackvoid (who replaced xandroj iirc)

[Toto]

Ok, I'm at the computer!!!!

Scumlords you better hold on to your breeches!!

I'm going to repeat this just in case

UC Voyager

did not notice it


DO NOT VOTE ANYONE, thanks

[Toto]

Why did Thor entrance it startle you, UC?

[Toto]

This game is a replacement shitstorm. I'm still trying to figure out who is who when reading.

I'd like to see more from Thor, his basis for pushing on Cheeky was kind of bad. Seems like he is pushing for the sake of pushing something.

Deimos seems like Mr Townie Pants to be frank. Maybe a bit LAMIST. But haven't seen anything strong to indicate otherwise.

UC looks like noob town, but I'm really having some hard time understanding his train of thought sometimes. He seems to change mind very often (Which I expect new townies to do) but could be playing the noob card too. I want some live interactions.

Northsidegal, I would like to hear your reads and some live chatting would be great, let me know when you are around.

[Toto]

Dude, just read BlackVoid replace out, there is now way I'm getting lynched this game.

[Toto]

You can ISO him and got to the end.

[Toto]

I'm kind of leaning there too but I read people better when I interact live so I want to hear from them a bit more.

This game need a good stable day with no subs.

[Toto]

UC (and everyone else), if you are town you need to stop scumreading my slot. I can explain: mafia don't rage quit like blackvoid did. They. Just. Don't.

They rage quit sometimes when they get in argument with their partner or something. But this is not the case here.

BlackVoid was obviously frustrated about the game state and lack of participation (which is unfavorable for town), and he was so frustrated he quit the game. This is the most certainty you will get a slot is town without a PR clear or a flip.

[Toto]

Actually UCV early posting is giving me the heeby jeebies.

[Toto]

Would it make sense for assemble/peaches to be scum and on each other's wagon? I'm thinking not. Clemency you need to place a vote, sitting on the sidelines makes me suspicious of you.

never thought of that. it is possible.

Stuff like this.

[Toto]

Who do you think is scum?

[Toto]

I want to say Thor is townie because even though he voted CT, he was on the wagon for a while....it feels townie...

Why does staying on the wagon for a while feels townie?

[Toto]

Couple questions,

Have you been confident on any push you made so far?
Do you prefer playing as town or mafia?

[Toto]

Do you have any completed town games?

[Toto]

I'm trying to read you. Your slot is somewhat compromised and I feel I need to make my mind about it before trying to sort everyone else.

Something that bothers me is that you don't seem too stressed about who gets lynched, and you don't seem to react to people calling you a newbie, or other more unpleasant things the way I expect.

I can explain some of that by you coming from ToS and be accustomed to more uncertainty, but while I haven't played ToS, I imagine people here will tend to want to have stronger opinions before buying in on a lynch, and people jumping on wagons without regard are generally seen as mafia tells.

So this is why I want to see your other games,

[Toto]

Yeah, but you are not really a noob anymore man. You have already like 5 games. I don't see you trying to do anything resembling scumhunting here. All is random shitposting commentary and very very shallow reads (mostly spelled out stances "X is scum") and you contradict yourself on every turn. You are too complacent. I went from being your top scum read to your buddy in the last page. But you seem to agree with everyone, even your scumreads all the time.

Saying "I think X person is scummy" doesn't really help me read town you, or understand why X is scum. Tell me WHY you think they are scummy, and really think about why can't that person be misdirected town. You say you are bored, but I don't feel you trying to solve the game, yet you post a lot. But there is no emotion even resembling frustration for not knowing who the scumfucks are. Why? Show me. Who are the scumfucks that are trying to get you lynched?

You are not getting NKed in any universe here so might as well sort you out today.

If anyone has a good reason to believe UC is town, please try to convince me as well.

[Toto]

Nsg I think what lucca is saying is that you voted no lynch before anyone explained why it was good

[Toto]

I guess no one was really scum reading him? Or at least had said so.

[Toto]

NSG - when you can please do that read through you wanted and provide some reads.
Thor - If you are town you need to do more. So far the only thing I've seen from you is the push on Cheeky.
UCV - Please provide the cases as you promised.
Luca - Can you point me to the posts where you gut-read UC as town?

@Everyone: let's agree not to vote for at least a couple days, and ideally not before we have consensus on who we will vote and everyone has catched up.

[Toto]

Hey guys,

Everyone seems to be town reading me and that means that I and the rest of town are probably not going to learn too much about interactions with me, so keep on doing what you are doing. I have some thoughts about the discussion but I will keep it to my self for later as I don't want to influence the discussion too much for now.

If you are town it is your job to get town read by me and whoever the other townie is. @Thor this is what I meant by you doing something before.

+ One thing you could try is try to convince others why whoever you replaced was town (same as I did).
+ Also if you truly think I am town then that narrows the pool of scum teams to 6 possible pairs for each of you. (it's 10 if you include me) Maybe have a think about those.

I will probably reread the game in the meantime. If you have questions or disagree with this approach let me know,

[Toto]

Actually math is wrong, you only need to think about 3 possible scumteams if you believe I'm town (I am):

So for example for Luca the possible scum teams are (excluding Toto):

NSG - THOR
NSG - UCV
UCV - THOR

So not really many options.

[Toto]

I'm not sure about NSG.

The lack of defense here is worrying me.

NSG your only argument against Thor is that he is the IC and should be dead? Anything else?
Whats your read on Luca/Deimos?
How about UCV

[Toto]

Also, to everyone:

Is there any pair you think it's unlikely as a scumteam? why?

[Toto]

@UCV what is your read on Luca and Thor, you already explained your case on clemency/NSG but you didn't address the other two. Any reason to think they are town or scum?

[Toto]

I'm not sure about NSG.

The lack of defense here is worrying me.

Can you explain what you mean by this?

I meant it was weird she had not replied to your post.

[Toto]

i did reply - 1124.

I was mostly talking about his last post, but you are right you had mostly addressed his case.

If you don't mind, please reply to why you thought we should treat UCV as town at the start of the day. You can do this after you post your case post if you want.

[Toto]

I pretty blatantly already have and have offered a large number of thoughts - want to talk about them?

Your most direct opinion seems to be that we should kill UCV.

Like I get that his behavior has been erratic and have my own reasons to suspect him but so far it seems we all agree he is a noob. What makes you think he is newbscum and not newbtown?

What are your thoughts on NSG and Luca? Are they town or scum? You seem to be suspecting both if I'm reading things right but also want to kill UCV.

[Toto]

I have already answered this in describing his moves as opportunistic and strategic and gunning for town flips.

I guess my problem with this is that I have a feeling you could be giving a much better explanation here. Town lynch town all the time, otherwise mafia would not be fun, why is it different here? Why is it opportunistic?

[Toto]

@Thor: thoughts on 416

[Toto]

@Thor: thoughts on 416

Fake hammer awareness paired with a distance.

What are your thoughts?

What about him ignoring the hypothetical coaching?

[Toto]

@Thor: thoughts on 416

Fake hammer awareness paired with a distance.

What are your thoughts?

What about him ignoring the hypothetical coaching?

Eh, I have never seen coaching happen in thread that, afterwards, scum ever admitted to.
I don't really think it does.

I mean his fake hammer and his obvious advice to go claim town, which he ignored. Assuming they are partners.

If I were ever fake-hammered by my partner I would do that.

[Toto]

When push comes to shove Toto is going to have to vote somebody, and between the two of you you're trying to make sure I'm ahead of your scum partner when he makes that decision.

I mean the good news is I'm not going to vote somebody, yet.

I have a social experiment idea in mind

*evil laughter goes here*

[Toto]

Since day two, it has been said that this possible scum team would be XandrojX, Demios, but id toto is town, you have to be town

This sentence is an insult to logic.

[Toto]

Hi

[Toto]

Hey Uc, What do you think about nsg defense?

[Toto]

Ok, UC.

Thats a good point that NSG has not said why Luca and Thor are scum besides her night kill analysis.

What dumb stuff has Thor said?

[Toto]

*sigh*

I'm sorry I can't decide whether UC is town or not. I think he is going to have to be a coinflip in the end.

I don't think Deimos / UCV really makes sense but that is up to you to decide, Thor.

Bascially I need you to 1:1 either NSG or Luca. I can't let you 1:1 vs UCV for obvious reasons. It's your choice in the end between those 2. If you are town and are correct about UCV then you have 50% chances. Good luck! If you are wrong about UCV it doesn't matter who you choose. If you are scum it also doesn't matter.

So we only get quick-hammered if you are town and choose town between NSG and Luca.

After you decide who you want to 1:1 you should vote each other and nobody else who is town should vote until we have more info from your 1:1. Basically after enough time passes (if we are lucky) you'll be confirmed scum to each other and that should provide town some info.

I'm happy to discuss if you are not ready or think this is a bad idea.

[Toto]

Because I'm not convinced he is scum and the 1:1 would not really tell us anything as it won't be a productive (for town) discussion between the two of you even if he is scum.

[Toto]

I don't trust his ability to defend himself if you are scum and he is town.

[Toto]

I mean you can try to convince me harder he is scum if you prefer that.

[Toto]

Please don't vote UC. Let's stick with the plan.

[Toto]

We don't lose anything because we would have voted Thor anyway, no?

If Thor is scum we don't get quick-hammered anyway.

If Thor is town he gets a last chance to defend and prove himself.

Plus 1:1 are fun to watch.

The only risk is that scum!Thor convinces us during 1:1 he is town, really. But I'm willing to take the risk.

[Toto]

Please don't vote UC. Let's stick with the plan.

which is?

1) Thor is going to choose between NSG and Luca in the next 48 hours.
2) They are going to vote each other first
3) Then they are going to try to convince us who to vote between the two of them.
4) We will give them 72 hours
5) If by that time scum has not quick hammered then it means at least one of Thor or Thor's Chosen is scum. (Also if you are scum and do get the chance to quickhammer please be nice and do it quick, and congrats, and gg).
6) Then we'll have about 48 hours to make our final minds.

[Toto]

describe this plan to me, exactly?

they each vote eachother

and the lack of a quickhammer confirms them as scum to

eachother

?

what do we gain out of this, exactly? and is what we gained worth risking the chance of a quickhammer? i think i would rather just vote a collectively agreed upon scumread.

Scumslip?

NSG knows already that Thor will choose to 1v1 me instead of her as they are scum buddies.

How would you have phrased that same question?

[Toto]

Hey. Thor and Luca,

Have you guys completely given up on the possibility it is UCV + NSG ?

[Toto]

@thor: please declare intent once you decide who you are going to vote

[Toto]

Are you sure she wasnt just thinking about it from a objective 3rd party point of view?

[Toto]

*shrug* I can see it both ways.

[Toto]

Also, luca and nsg. Why is THor and UCv not possible?

[Toto]

You realize you are both agreeing on many things and making my life harder

[Toto]

Nsg. What worries me about you is that you have not provided much more beyond night kill analysis. Which is soemthing that is easy to make up and actually design as scum.

Luca my problem with you is that you are too confident and Im not sure if it is confbias or you are just desperate to look like you are pushing stuff.

[Toto]

Nsg: I think the analysis made sense. It can also make as much sense if replace you with luca / thor.

[Toto]

Btw I dont think the fact that scum shot the bp on n1 rules out ucv. Shooting the bp was the optimal play.
Period.

[Toto]

She is not pushing enough. You are pushing too much. You are right that you both seem too locked on your reads.

[Toto]

Im saying it looks somewhat fake from my pov. I can buy the confbias argument. Just make sure to keep an open mind if you are town.

[Toto]

I dont think this is going to be a productive conversation. Im going to keep repeating you sound too confident and you are going to keep repeating you really belive your reads are correct.

[Toto]

What do think of Clemency’s devils advocate post about UCV?

[Toto]

Btw nsg another thing that worries me is that you dont seem to mind ucv wanting you dead.

[Toto]

Whats wrong with the 1v1 thing?

[Toto]

Meh. I want to see more from Thor first.

Who would you vote btw?

[Toto]

Becuase if you are town you should be worried about surviving today and tomorrow. You cant nk anyone you dont like.

[Toto]

hey ucv dont vote whatever happens unless you are scum

[Toto]

hey ucv dont vote whatever happens unless you are scum

The day, the logic died....

Just dont vote anyone if you are town

[Toto]

Thor will vote either luca or nsg. I need to see Thor making this decision and then 1v1 to help me sort things out. If you are right then you have nothing to worry about.

If he hasnt decided in 24 hours ill vote him.

[Toto]

lmao

[Toto]

If you are town I can't help you now, nor do I have a good way to decide if you are. I hope you are right, though. If you are town.

[Toto]

And as people gird up to lynch me - exciting mental exercise for you.

Describe someone else's case on me.
It will be difficult,

Best one I heard so far is you are still alive.

That doesn't mean UCV is scum, though.

[Toto]

NSG I don't think Thor spends a lot of time defending this point if Luca is his partner.

Like he said, he would bus his partner. *ahem*

[Toto]

I meant UCV as his possible partner.

Where did he seem unhappy to you?

[Toto]

I don't get the frustration, sounds like normal Thor. He is always seem grumpy about something.

[Toto]

are you.... TRYING TO SEEM SCUMMY, it makes no since!

[Toto]

Maybe scum didn't kill me because they thought:

1) town!UCV would go after me (I didn't explain the blackvoid thing until today)
2) I would go after town!UCV / town!NSG given my calling them scumfucks in twilight
3) They thought my reads were shit. They were probably right.
4) They could link me to scum!deimos given I asked to wait for him
5) They really didn't think about it
6) They thought they had a good motive to ping the lucca death on someone (hi NSG).
6) Wifom

In other words, it is useless to have these type of discussions. If you are going to learn anything from this newbie, let it be that NK analysis is a fucking waste of time. Thanks.

[Toto]

Luca, can you explain how your expressed position on Thor/NSG has been different from hers? I see only a mirror.

[Toto]

So. Thor.

Walk me through your thought process before you decided to get into this 1v1. Because I don't see it.

1) NSG +Luca + UCV wanted to kill you before you decided to vote
2) Everyone had heard your case on UCV and yet no-one was actually willing to vote him, or at least expressed that opinion.
3) I gave you the option to go after either Luca or NSG (that from town!you PoV at least one of them has to be scum).
4) You decided the plan was shit
5) you voted him and didn't really expand your case on him.

+ What do you expect us to do now?
+ Are you town that just wants to suicide just to prove a point? because this is the only explanation I have for town!you.

Tell me what you want me to do.

[Toto]

This game makes no since

[Toto]

Re: nk analysis ok for scumhunting but easy to make up by scum since they think about this a lot. I dont want to rathole on this. Lets chat after the game.

Thor. If you had gone through the plan who would you have voted and why?

Luca. It makes sense that nsg+ucv makes sense in this situation. I have not given up on thor+ucv yet.

I dont want to vote yet either.

Thor. I just lost a lylo becuase it went too fast and I want to make sure I consider all the options this time. You keep repeating ucv is scum for just a couple of reasons that can also be explained from newbtown pov. I dont understand why you were so convinced to the point of ignoring the plan, or at least give some thought about it.

Your debate with nsg and luca has been mostly about you convincing one you are not the others partners and vice versa. If you are town I need to see how you sort them.

[Toto]

Oh and NSG you need to explain you ucv meta read

[Toto]

Sounds like you are asking permission to vote UCV.

[Toto]

Yes, I agree that NSG+Thor doesn't make too much sense here. What do you think Thor would have done in that case, though? Would he had 1:1 one of you two?

[Toto]

To be honest NSG is my top scum read.

[Toto]

then it means it's probably NSG+UCV or NSG+You

So I guess since you haven't quick hammered that would mean it is NSG+UCV. I guess it might have been risky for you to flip so fast on UCV given you were both town-reading him and Thor was online while you both were online. So I'm just waiting to see if you quick hammer in the next day or so.

I guess You+Thor also makes sense still, as well as UCV+Thor ... But if I'm to trust my NSG scumread then that is not possible.

[Toto]

UC can you explain why you think Thor is scummy?

[Toto]

Well, it's weird, your position. You don't seem worried about UCV killing you tomorrow if you make it through the day.

Can you clarify why you think UCV is town. You said you had a meta read on him. Can you go over it?

[Toto]

Is it possible .... you are both town?

[Toto]

So I guess you don't think UCV + Thor can be a thing.

[Toto]

Thor - thanks for pointing out all the inacuracies and logical fallacies in my statements. Can you now tell me who is scum between Luca and NSG, and also explain those reads? Ill keep repeating this until you either do that or I dont give a damn about this game anymore and vote you.

UCV is now confirmed scum to you. Show me all the scummy stuff he has done, as well as Rc and zemaj.



UCV - Thor is scum confirmed scum to you. Tell me all the scummy things Thor and Plot did this game. Also I need your reads on the other slots.

Luca / NSG - we are lynching either Thor or UCV. Please try to figure out which is scum.

[Toto]

Why can't I 1v1 UCV - you really need to justify that town read hardcore if you want me 1v1ing within derp.

This is not an unreasonable request or response - and I carried on the conversation with you for a few exchanges - and you didn't give me ANYTHING resembling a decent answer.
Your strongest point was "You debate better than UCV"

Well, quite frankly, looking at the thread, I debate better than NSG and Lucca also - so...?

You needed a town case.
You had nothing.
Thus the rule out was unsupported by any logic.

If you are town we can chat about this after the game.

[Toto]

My problem with Thor is that he is spending a lot of time arguing definitions, and talking about the logic of certain statements.

Apparently this is how Thor reads people, but this is also a good place to hide by scum as it is a lot easier for them to talk and argue about objective facts (Logic, Definitions, Etc) than it is to express subjective opinions and emotions they don't really believe or feel.

[Toto]

UCV please dont vote if you are town.

I think Thor may be scum here. And you said yourself nsg/thor doesnt make sense. So this is a bad idea if you are town...

[Toto]

Yeah Thor has to be scum if you are town, UCV. You should be voting Thor and no one else.

[Toto]

If that is really what you believe you should vote UCV not nsg and risk the least likely scenario of thor/nsg

[Toto]

But it is up to you. Id prefer to wait on thor

[Toto]

NSG - just say 'not hammering' if are town - otherwise GG

[Toto]

Ok, thanks.

Yeah, so NSG can only be scum with UCV.

@Luca

- UCV is confirmed scum to you now. Basically you are down to NSG+UCV or Thor+UCV

@UCV

- Luca is confirmed scum to you now too. If you are town, NSG is town otherwise you'd be dead.

[Toto]

so wait, ucv now knows the scumteam, correct? thor is confirmed scum to him and luca is confirmed scum to him. am i missing something here?

if we take it that ucv is town then the scumteam has to be thor/luca, yes?

Only if UCV is town. You still need to consider UCV+Thor and UCV +Luca

[Toto]

Ok, I'm probably going to take another look at the game from this new perspective.

I have to think about (in no particular order):

Thor + Luca
Thor + UCV
NSG + UCV
Luca + UCV

1) Probability law says I should be shooting UCV.
2) Scum read on Thor
3) Starting to feel town vibes from NSG

I recommend you guys do the same.

[Toto]

Hey guys. I think we should get Thor’s opinion on that one first.

Nsg you have any reasons to belive ucv and luca are scumbuddies (asume ucv is scum here)

[Toto]

I understand your point of the 180 you did on Thor when he voted ucv. but that can easily be scum theatre to gain points. Im pretty sure ive done stuff like that as scum. Specially it came after my post where I was frustrated with Thor and shifting my read.

I need to re read your interactions before we do this, and we need to listen to both Thor and NSG opinons.

[Toto]

I mean the play is not bad as a hedge against ucv getting lynched (you were Thors top candidate for his partner$

[Toto]

Ok. I understand your point. But I need to think about this.

What are your thoughrs on ucv/nsg or ucv/thor. Try to focus on that if you are town.

[Toto]

@nsg+luca ucv has been saying scummy shit all game to be honest to the point I just dont know if its too scummy to be scum.

He is a new player that tends to get lynched a lot and thats probably because he says scummy shit all the time. What I need you to convince me is that the scummy shit here is actually different from his town games.

Nsg you have been saying you have this meta read on him a while. When do you think you are going to be able to explain it?

[Toto]

Luca I think nsg’s point is that if we decide to lynch thor then you+ucv get cleared for free and clearing ucv+you now doesnt add much incremental value compared.

So basically we should decide on a lynch first.

Id be open to clear nsg before that. But need to grow

some balls

confidence that either thor is scum or nsg is town

[Toto]

I kind of want nsg to be town here because it makes everything easier which is probably biasing me a bit

[Toto]

I don't see Thor+UCV given how the day started.

Why would Thor throw UCV under the bus after you two had lock town reads on the slot?

[Toto]

I supposed you could argue is a similar situation. The difference is you are the one that keeps bringing up that you+UCV is not possible, and it makes me more suspicious about it.

Do you agree with my conclusion on Thor+UCV? I want to hear NSG's thoughts on this too.

[Toto]

Another way to put this. Suppose we clear you+ucv, we lynch scum!ucv and I get NKed. Who would you lynch tomorrow?

[Toto]

Meh. I'm back to UC Voyager + NSG.

Is written all over the clemency fake hammer.

I'm going to do some 'meta' on UC Voyager just to make sure he isn't this scummy all the time.

[Toto]

Thor,

I'm going to make this easy:

1) Suppose we lynch UCV today, I get NKed, you somehow get to choose the lynch tomorrow, gun to your head, who would you choose? Possible answers: [a) NSG, b) Luca]

For bonus town points:

2) Explain why. (extra town points if it exceeds 140 characters)

[Toto]

Sigh.

This 1v1 only tells me uc is a newb.

This is what I was afraid, Thor. If you are scum that was a good play. Congrats.

Uc has all the symtoms of scum here. He is trying to convince luca he is town. If he is town Luca knows this already, and everything Luca and Thor do would look very scummy for him. But he is not telling me what those things are.

Uc if you dont do anythig townie in the next 24 hours Im going to lynch you. Lurking is not an option. For god sake if you are town make ar least one townie post this game.

[Toto]

Uc if you dont do anythig townie in the next 24 hours Im going to lynch you. Lurking is not an option. For god sake if you are town make ar least one townie post this game.

what caused this change in opinion? i think you're making a serious mistake here. i want to give some context to the back and forths that have been had and just this situation in general - if we take it that ucv is town he is now in a 2v1 with two of the better mafia players on the site as a scumteam. i would trust that they have the skill - especially up against a newbie like ucv - to take almost any exchange and come out of it favorably. to get clearer reads look through the thread at previous posts when scum had less of an active agenda.

I understand, but for me right now he is a coinflip vs someone who is doing something I expect a townie that realizes that UCV was scum would do: attack him. Can you point me to anything in his attack that looks odd to you?

if you really believe UCV is town then you will end up voting Thor and Luca. Which of the pairs would you clear first: UCV+Thor or UCV+Luca.

[Toto]

Thor,

I'm going to make this easy:

1) Suppose we lynch UCV today, I get NKed, you somehow get to choose the lynch tomorrow, gun to your head, who would you choose? Possible answers: [a) NSG, b) Luca]

For bonus town points:

2) Explain why. (extra town points if it exceeds 140 characters)

I'd flip a coin.

Let me make it simple for you - with you or I as the obvious NK - why do you think it benefits you to hear my thoughts while also allowing scum to hear them?

I pinky promise to sheep your choice if you are cleared as town.

[Toto]

I don't see a world where NSG and Luca don't kill each other tomorrow so we might as well clear UCV + Thor.

Thoughts?

[Toto]

K, any reason to think Luca + UCV is SvS here? I don't think so.

[Toto]

Luca, any reason we should town read Thor? He doesn't seem too cooperative to me.

[Toto]

Ok, let's clear Luca + UCV.

@Thor

, when you a are back I need you to vote NSG to test Luca + UCV. Let me explain to you why I want to do this:

If we successfully clear them then the possible teams a down to:

UCV + NSG
UCV + Thor
Luca + Thor

Luca + UCV

Which means that if we then succesfully lynch scum then our lylo chances go up to 50% from 33% because we always have one confirmed townie in the three way lylo.


I've really tried to collaborate with you and all I get back are non-answers and pedantic positions. When you post next time, one of your posts is going to be one of the following three things:

1) A vote on NSG (You can blame me if we lose because of this)
2) A town case on NSG
3) A scum case on Luca

I will 100% vote you if that is not the case, or if you try to bend the rules in any way I deem unsatisfactory (i.e. no pedantic tricks). You are an objective person, and I'm not (some of the time). If you are town you will lose 100% chance if I vote you. I'd say it would be better to flip the coin if you have to.

[Toto]

I mean the game seems pretty locked to me.

The only scenarios where town can realistically win at this point are {Luca, Thor} or {NSG, UCV}

In the scenario of {UCV, Thor} you (Luca) will lynch NSG after we lynch UCV.

In the scenario of {Luca, UCV} NSG will lynch Thor tomorrow after we lynch UCV today, as things stand today.


So lynching UCV is equivalent to clearing Thor+UCV and Luca+UCV from a town winning chance perpective, but at least I can have a decent 1:1 to make a better call.

[Toto]

I mean the game seems pretty locked to me.

The only scenarios where town can realistically win at this point are {Luca, Thor} or {NSG, UCV}

In the scenario of {UCV, Thor} you (Luca) will lynch NSG after we lynch UCV. Or NSG will lynch Luca if we lynch Thor.

In the scenario of {Luca, UCV} NSG will lynch Thor tomorrow after we lynch UCV today, as things stand today. Or we lose immediately if we lynch Thor today.


So lynching UCV or Thor is equivalent to clearing Thor+UCV and Luca+UCV from a town winning chance perspective, but at least I can have a decent 1:1 to make a better call.

EBWOP

@Thor. This is why I need you to say something useful here if you are town.

[Toto]

Which of Luca's reactions read fake to you UC?

[Toto]

I think demios is pretty townie. His Trap idea was clever and should be used again! hopefully getting a scum next time ( :

After the fake Hammer. (props to Demios. I might use that in future games). Clemency posted this. As to why? I dont know. Everything he has said before about me seemed to say he had a scum vibe from me, but yet He posted this after the fake hammer. Wouldn't he think it was a good decision if He had thought I was scum?

It wasn't my idea to fake hammer.....I find fake hammers very ineffective ......

Can you explain how you changed your mind about fake hammers?

[Toto]

Can you link the games?

[Toto]

LMAO UC you get lynched in all your games, WHY are you so scummy?

[Toto]

Anyone has thoughts on Deimos fake hammer on UCV. Reaction there seems pretty townie

Nsg - is it possible deimos was trying to save his partner with that fake hammer?

[Toto]

He fake hammers you so you pretend to be town and dont get lynched

[Toto]

Nsg - my problem with your wagon and nk analysis is that

1) its just fitting a logical analysis of events where I need to assume you and ucv are town first. This may be just inexperience from you and assume there is always a logical explanation or that it is hard to fit logical explanations to any hypothesis here. I can grab any pair of you and make up a wagon and nk explanation story that makes sense for that pair.

2) you seem to have a good grasp of other peoples emotions and I need you to tell me why Thor and Luca are thinking and why are scummy in their own behavior. Tell me why what they are saying or not saying is scummy.

[Toto]

Toto, you're saying UCV's reaction to the fake hammer was townie?

Yeah

[Toto]

I mean coming from UC that's like an Oscar winning performance.

[Toto]

NSG votes Thor, confirming me and UCV are of opposing alignments.

This requires approval from Thor

[Toto]

I will vote in 24 hour.

[Toto]

Toto will vote in (expired on 2017-11-15 17:00:00)

[Toto]

K, I will hammer UCV when the timer expires unless someone convinces me otherwise.

[Toto]

You'll need to convince NSG or Thor

[Toto]

Who do you think Thor will vote tomorrow?

[Toto]

Hi

[Toto]

I think UCV might be town after all.

[Toto]

NSG - Thor is confirmed scum to you now.

[Toto]

Thor - can you now make your case on NSG? She is confirmed scum to you.

NSG - did you read 1563

[Toto]

Well we might as well get UCV flipped since nothing much is happening.
VOTE: UCV

L-1.

Yep, I've seen enough.
VOTE: Voyager

That's hammer.

So what alignment were you, Voyager?
Lying after having already been lynched is extremely bad etiquette, so please don't do that. It is known as "twilight trolling".

someone left the train btw
i thought you already vote anyway

VOTE: Demios
sorry. he is trying to make advantage of something that was a simple noob mistake. Just because you claim when you play in ToS, i dont play that way. what does ToS even have to do with this. It makes no since!

I feel the town

[Toto]

have no doubt that both of them have the ability to play a scum game almost entirely indistinguishable from their town game, so completely honestly i can't point to anything specfically that they're saying and say "this is scummy"

This is not acceptable.

[Toto]

The problem of scum!you leaving your vote on Thor is that it would have confirmed UCV and NSG not partners when NSG didn't hammer. Which means that Thor would have no choice than to powerbus you because I would have forced him to vote you instead of UCV. And we would have ended up lynching either of you today.

This is why you made up your 'realization' that NSG didn't make sense with Thor, and while the obvious vote would have been UCV, NSG made more sense, because as you say, UCV was still reading you. It was not until I forced your hand to switch votes that you did.

Plus, like I said before, people are irrational all the time.

[Toto]

Staying put would have been worse. I would have forced you back.

[Toto]

Yes, you had a good reason but you also needed a good reason to not look that suspicious.

[Toto]

Aaaaanyway, I need to think about this.

[Toto]

. thus, what i can explain is how why they're saying something is scummy.

Yes, this is what I mean. Tell my why scum!thor has been saying the things he's been saying or not saying today.

[Toto]

Luca why is Thor town?

[Toto]

Thanks. I’m sorry Im taking so long to make this call.

Clemency always lurks regardless of alignment. And UC Voyager looks pretty scummy in all his games. Its not just newbness. So I have no way to read them.

The only persons I can possibly try to read are luca/nsg/thor

Thor + Luca looks like scum teathre give how much effort you spent arguing definitions.


I’ve been asking in many possible ways to Thor to help me read him better by engaging nsg or you. Maybe he has tried to do this but Ive missed that effort in between the lines. So my guess is Thor chose to vote ucv and refuses to collaborate to deny town information. He is pretty good scum and his tone and way to sort people is not different from his scum games.

Luca my main problem with you was you went from thor bloodlust to do a 180 after you voted. I can explain this by you voting Thor because your bus plan was working, but then realized voting in that position was a mistake.

NSG has a posting tone I find a bit convoluted and I need to check her town games to make sure is just her posting style. I dont know how to explain it but her posts feel too formal maybe? Or too well redacted?

[Toto]

i haven't voted thor yet because that would be betting the game on you and ucv not being partners. i don't think that's true but i still don't think it's a good idea to gamble like that. now that it seems town will lose this game anyways i guess it doesn't matter.

VOTE: thor

For this to happen you need to be really sure UC Voyager is town. Why are you avoiding Luca's question?

[Toto]

Before I thought it was just potentially bad town play - now it looks like scum ducking the question because she's making gak up to protect a partner.

She is confirmed scum to you...

[Toto]

1. That is some reachy shit, surely you can see that? You're basically saying I made a plan of bussing Thor and getting UCV on my side, and then despite the plan going perfectly I get cold feet and ditch it just in case UCV might happen to change his mind in the future, even though there is no sign of that happening. Do you not think I would have considered what was needed to achieve victory before making the game-defining decision to bus my partner? You're basically saying just because there is some slim chance I could have an ulterior motive, my point isn't valid. You could literally say the same about any point every made in this game - you can always twist things to suit your agenda/what you want to believe.

2. Did you even read my #3? It's no good saying you've been considering something if there is nothing to back it up - we can only go on what we read in-thread.

Perhaps you can walk me through your thought process behind considering both me and UCV as scum before arriving at your conclusion that UCV must be Town and me scum?

Can you at least answer this bit?

You say you've considered I might be Town and UCV scum but we've seen no evidence of this, so please walk us through your thought-process there.

I agree you are a good player.

So, if you are town put yourself in my less talented shoes.

I can't pretend I can read you.
I can't pretend I can read UCV (just look at his other games).

That leaves me NSG and Luca which you have not helped me sort. I'm not saying you are bad. I'm telling you look scummy because you are refusing to help me sort people out. Why?

[Toto]

That was the wrong quote, but you get the idea. Thor

[Toto]

Maybe give me a breakdown of how you need to see a case?

Because I've seen your case on UCV - and I'm vastly more in-depth on both UCV and NSG.

Show me some things she has said or done and tell me why they are scum motivated. What is her plan?

[Toto]

Maybe give me a breakdown of how you need to see a case?

Because I've seen your case on UCV - and I'm vastly more in-depth on both UCV and NSG.

Show me some things she has said or done and tell me why they are scum motivated. What is her plan?

Okay.

Remember that thing I brought up just minutes ago about her UCV defense and when I explained the scum plan to it?
How about that as a start?

I'm already and have been doing this.

Yeah, that's a good start. What else you got?

[Toto]

. thus, what i can explain is how why they're saying something is scummy.

Yes, this is what I mean. Tell my why scum!thor has been saying the things he's been saying or not saying today.

for a stressful lylo situation he's been arguing a lot of definitions and semantics. unlike me, ucv and luca, it doesn't seem like he's actively trying to convince people on anything or sell someone his case. he also seems to have avoided commenting on a lot of the mechanical solving talk that we've all gone over regarding the scumteams. it doesn't seem like he's as invested in solving this game as everyone else, and to me that seems like he doesn't have any solving to do - he already knows everyone else's alignments.

Thor, can you vote NSG? Also please reply to this if you haven't already.

[Toto]

Luca, we are lynching Thor or NSG today. Only one of them is scum, the other is town. What's your take?

NSG + LUCA - Are you ok with clearing Thor + UCV?

[Toto]

You are all very scummy at this point

NSG voting Thor was pretty bad, specially the reasoning and then being cagey about her read.

Her explanation sounds like she has some experience with the slot that she is not allowed to speak of which may be her only salvation here. But then saying Thor may be UCV's partner for excluding UCV from the possible groups was bad too in this context if she really believed her UCV read.

Anyway, sorry, I know I'm being a pain in the butt for taking so long. I'll leave you guys 24 hours to make your final cases, I will try to read today again, I will read your cases and then will vote.

This shit is hard.

[Toto]

I guess gut/paranoia and the fact you are trying the hardest to convince me you are town but I still feel something feels off.

Everyone was also suspecting deimos for most of the game but no one ever voted him.

At the beggining of the day I had the feeling you and thor had decided to focus on ucv. One of you would tunnel him and the other would defend him, while suspecting each other. Seemed like a good plan.

I dont really think talking about this is going to help. What are your thoughts on Nsg/thor

[Toto]

Luca, can you link your two most recent scum games?

[Toto]

lawl

[Toto]

well played UCV, you carried the scum team

[Toto]

Luca&NSG sorry I could not town read you both at the same time.

[Toto]

Would it help if I said I was about to say I townread you?

[Toto]

Like I said I didn't trust myself to read Thor or UCV, but I felt I could read NSG under pressure.

[Toto]

UCV I'm deathtunneling you on D1 on all my games

[Toto]

Should we all town together again?

[Toto]

Nah I won't death tunnel you, but I can see through your role PM color now.

[Toto]

Town Slayer

[Toto]

Man, I don't want to be conftown again.