Team Mafia 2020: Normal Game (Endgame)

[RCEnigma]

I like how ari chooses to engage with me unlike RCE who just brushes me off "hes a troll huurr durr and if he isnt well ill get back to it laterrr"

Oh shit, it's almost like I said I wasn't reading you today. Wild.

yes ignoring content is a bit weird hmmm??

I resent that. I always play seriously.

@ico, you've been on four different wagons today. Can you give me your resosns why for each jump in like, a sentence each?


@rce, why not?

Plum is the only slot that my team and I agree has scum equity without tying them to another player specifically. All of my townreads are on this wagon + a scumread I'm waffling on. The alternative is wagoning a slot that my team thinks is town by play.

Wrt saudade he's a trolly player regardless of alignment from my experience. He's kind of dropped that at this point and I don't know what to make of his slot as a whole so I'm not really going to stretch myself today trying to figure him out.

you mark me your god and sheep me all the way that's what you do my love

Not sure what you wanted me to respond to there. The content im assuming you're referring to was directed at other players that I'm not answering for.

[RCEnigma]

you only read players that quote you directly?
you're being dumdum on purpose now, you know what I meant

You're not interesting today and nothing you've said today piqued my interest.

[RCEnigma]

Why are you so Keen to force an interaction here?

[RCEnigma]

I'm really dumb. I was assuming gamma was gamma emerald. Then I was about to grill show because gamma has siteflaked since the 4th. But it's gammagooey.

[RCEnigma]

VOTE: RC

[RCEnigma]

VOTE: RC

So that if town loses its on the back of other townies and no fault of yours.

[RCEnigma]

VOTE: RC

So that if town loses its on the back of other townies and no fault of yours.

Lol the salt XD

I can't help it. He keeps pressing the button.

[RCEnigma]

FL says hi saudade.

[RCEnigma]

@rce why are you voting rc rn ?

For my sanity.

[RCEnigma]

Like I literally cannot follow a coherent train of thought with him here regardless of alignment.

[RCEnigma]

And when we're so close to any semblance of cohesion on a likely scum slot he comes in with this need to dissociate from the wagon and remind everyone the flip is on Skitter not him.

Reads like TMI and RC backing off both Ari's wagon and Shos' wagon could easily be false associatives. So thats like not relevant to Shos' alignment either way.

At this point I feel this game gets infinitely easier with RC not in it.

[RCEnigma]

Im doing my Ari read through, since Im hitting a wall in Math/RC right now and a bit braindead. I came across a kinda weird stance in RCE's posting.

Correct me if Im wrong, but hes dead set on RC's lynch today (3748, 5022)

He's dead set that if RC is scum, Im his partner. (1724, 1732, 3750, 3774)

And he reads me as town (910, 1732, 4603)

Because that adds up to terrible positioning and logic?

I've abandoned the RC/Teacher pairing. Even initially it was only based on a cheeky one off phrase from RC so it was weak to begin with. I was advised not to look too deep into RC pairings if I truly feel RC is scum. I'll just run myself into dead ends.

[RCEnigma]

And when we're so close to any semblance of cohesion on a likely scum slot he comes in with this need to dissociate from the wagon and remind everyone the flip is on Skitter not him.

Reads like TMI and RC backing off both Ari's wagon and Shos' wagon could easily be false associatives. So thats like not relevant to Shos' alignment either way.

At this point I feel this game gets infinitely easier with RC not in it.

I am almost thinking RC’s flip is what is most valuable for the gamestate

If RC is town then Shos becomes an okay compromise

But if RC scum Ari scum and Skitter scum become much more viable
As RC flipped his lid when I pushed Skitter.

If RC town Skitter prob town RCE prob scum.

You aren't familiar with my playstyle but I never hard push town!RC as scum here. In fact there's meta to back this up though it's only one game.

[RCEnigma]

I hardclaim mason

Possibly 3+ confirmable townies fwiw.

Don't take this serious.

[RCEnigma]

Im doing my Ari read through, since Im hitting a wall in Math/RC right now and a bit braindead. I came across a kinda weird stance in RCE's posting.

Correct me if Im wrong, but hes dead set on RC's lynch today (3748, 5022)

He's dead set that if RC is scum, Im his partner. (1724, 1732, 3750, 3774)

And he reads me as town (910, 1732, 4603)

Because that adds up to terrible positioning and logic?

I've abandoned the RC/Teacher pairing. Even initially it was only based on a cheeky one off phrase from RC so it was weak to begin with. I was advised not to look too deep into RC pairings if I truly feel RC is scum. I'll just run myself into dead ends.

I kinda disagree with that.

I just think you don’t look at pairings in the traditional sense. I’ve been scum with him before. He leaves tells it’s just weird and hard to process until after you know one way or the other.

This is in part my experience with RC and my team's advice. Like Skitter for example. I'm hard townreading there and I'm pretty sure I'm accurate in my read there but RC has been setting up associatives there since day1 (my team picked up on this and their early solve was RC/Skitter +1) day 2 solve was RC/Ico/ +1 likely plum. That was mostly a jingle read but we agreed there day 1 and his read there persisted. They aren't completely caught up, FL has done the most reading up on this game. So Ico!town + math!town changes the dynamic and they'll likely point to 1 town/ 1 scum in RC/Ari. Both FL and Jingle townread Ari up to this point.

[RCEnigma]

I hardclaim mason

Possibly 3+ confirmable townies fwiw.

Don't take this serious.

Seconded.

If another mason actually existed that would be four conf town.

Me Ico Saude and Mason 2.

That would make the game unwinnable for scum I think would have to do maths

Btw Saude I am extremely townreading atm. I especially liked when he voted me upon entry but I have a weakness for buddying. He’s not quite block level but pretty close

The mason thing is a callback to a normal I played with him where the majority of his posts were "I am a mason".

[RCEnigma]

Twelve alive, 4 confirmed town, three scum, 5 possible mislynches
3 confirmed town, three scum, 4 possible mislynches
2 confirmed town, three scum, 3 possible mislynches
1 confirmed town, three scum, 2 possible mislynches << Town loss

Okay it’s possible but it’s reaaaaaaallly hard so if that’s legit don’t claim your buddy yet

Pedit oh lol.

Pedit I would love to hear more from Jingle regarding Ari. It’s odd for Molla and Jingle to be opposed and they are both good.

Jingle hasn't really expanded on the Ari read but I'll ask about it.

[RCEnigma]

There is a lot of reason to discredit a confirmed slot.

Anyway RC, you're 3 for 3 on pushing for town lynches if Ari ends up town so why should your saudade read be considered different? If not for the fact they voted you.

Which is where a lot of your scumreads have come from this game. I started backing off early because you broke that pattern after I disengaged from interacting but it's picked back up since.

It's really disingenuous to push Math on the grounds that he was defending the shos wagon which was probably scum and now that they've called you town, you called Math out as leading a mislynch if he votes shos.

[RCEnigma]

There is a lot of reason to discredit a confirmed slot.


There is a lot of reason to discredit a confirmed slot.

no, there really isn't, because the slot is literally confirmed, and thinking otherwise is stupid.

You could quote their win % a bunch or something.

[RCEnigma]

Anyway RC, you're 3 for 3 on pushing for town lynches if Ari ends up town so why should your saudade read be considered different? If not for the fact they voted you.

I didn't end up wanting to lynch Ari though. I'm 1 for 1 on lynches. You don't magically get to assign me fault for lynches that I correctly decided to back off of before they happened.
If you have a problem with my Mathblade stances, well, I've pushed them as scum in pretty much all the games we've played together because of their actions in them.

Cool, then you don't get to tell us how sure you are you got the scummy boy this time and how dumb we are for not seeing it when you haven't pushed scum at all this game.

[RCEnigma]

There is a lot of reason to discredit a confirmed slot.

Anyway RC, you're 3 for 3 on pushing for town lynches if Ari ends up town so why should your saudade read be considered different? If not for the fact they voted you.

Which is where a lot of your scumreads have come from this game. I started backing off early because you broke that pattern after I disengaged from interacting but it's picked back up since.

It's really disingenuous to push Math on the grounds that he was defending the shos wagon which was probably scum and now that they've called you town, you called Math out as leading a mislynch if he votes shos.

Why three for three? There’s ducky and shos?

I am the one pushing Ari but people disagree with it so it’s back burner?

No, pushing Ari as scum day 1, pushing TW as scum day 1, pushing you as scum day 2.

RC said somewhere he backed off Ari because NSG urged him to. So I'm not really giving credit there for an aha realized Ari is town moment.

[RCEnigma]

Anyway RC, you're 3 for 3 on pushing for town lynches if Ari ends up town so why should your saudade read be considered different? If not for the fact they voted you.

I didn't end up wanting to lynch Ari though. I'm 1 for 1 on lynches. You don't magically get to assign me fault for lynches that I correctly decided to back off of before they happened.
If you have a problem with my Mathblade stances, well, I've pushed them as scum in pretty much all the games we've played together because of their actions in them.

Cool, then you don't get to tell us how sure you are you got the scummy boy this time and how dumb we are for not seeing it when you haven't pushed scum at all this game.

RCE do you think RC is town? Then stop being antagonistic.

If you think RC is scum then argue he is scum not antagonistic town.

I don't think he's town. I'm making the argument that I don't think RC is this off his game as town. If it's a BoP read them that's what it is.

[RCEnigma]

Honestly RCE bite me you've seen me push a mislynch then clean sweep scum before and I don't see why this game in your eyes should be different than Magical Girls.

In Magical Girls your read accuracy forced a ton of bussing. We had to mass buss chemist. Maria and I had to mutually buss and try to push LLD as the deepwolf. Based on read accuracy and the strength of the town block.

I don't feel like any of that is happening here with Ari defending everyone. Saudade defending plum. Plum defending RC. Etc etc.

[RCEnigma]

You weren't the main part of the shos wagon?? So why would that set you up as tomorrow's mislynch if letting you kill TW was yesterday's set up to mislynch you today? And I'm the only one pushing that. In the world that you are town I'm either scum, or scum are kissing your ass RC.

[RCEnigma]

Like Saudade's interactions with Skitter are horribly SvS indicative with how obviously he's trying to spew them -not buddies-.
Skitter threw Saudade two awful townreads, then hedged on it, then decided randomly that Saudade had to be scum with Shos to be scum (which preempts voting Saudade first), then when I explained why they made sense as scum together she decided to call him scum but still ended up taking the point of view that she was only willing to vote Math/Shos today. I have considered Aristophanes for third but I don't actually think it's spectacularly likely, but it's definitely possible.

Do you townread RCE?

You got to it before me.

[RCEnigma]

Bluntly I want to develop my reads based on people's reaction to this gamestate, not based on the reads I already have which were all negatively influenced by the fact that I thought Skitter was the doc save for a very long time.

Ok. You are in the position of knowing you are the counterwagon now. How does that influence your Skitter + saudade read if you think shos was designated as a mislynch.

If saudade and Skitter are going to townread each other but oppose wagon views where is the third?

Do they take opposing views if the third is a lurker with no influence?

[RCEnigma]

@RCE

I am thinking RC Skitter Ari.

RC leaves me alive if I am wrong 99 times out of a hundred
I am a threat to Skitter as I have only seen her as town
And Ari was my only scumread

I think if Ari is town you’re dead

Can you second check me?

Idk, RC leading that team is scary but also, if I'm accurately reading Ari (ended day 1 scumreading Ari and RC) and Skitter knows I will accurately read them given time (caught as scum in PFUP and madness at Port Arthur back to back) then the only way I don't eat the nightkill is if they believe Teacher is a protective. As he's probably the only slot that would drop a save on me.

That team would have just killed Teacher off in that case.

[RCEnigma]

Actually now that I put the attempted nightkill as Math it makes Town!Ari more likely.

Math dies as the biggest advocate for Ari's death, which lessens the impact of TWs lynch. It gives RC room for not being the nightkill because of an incorrect flip on Scum!Ari. But there's wiggle room for RC to flip back to Ari because it made his initial read correct. That's an easily framed up mislynch.

[RCEnigma]

How do you feel about skitter, rce?

Let's leave mechanics for a bit? It's so hard to read people arguing continually about something we literally don't know

I've had Skitter as my top town for both days. I think her solves and approaches are natural. I liked the reversal of her Teacher read and willingness to correct herself and back down when wrong is town indicative.

It would take an extremely compelling case against Skitter for me to reconsider. Or a bizarre lylo situation that's pretty unlikely so I'll leave it at that.

[RCEnigma]

Actually now that I put the attempted nightkill as Math it makes Town!Ari more likely.

Math dies as the biggest advocate for Ari's death, which lessens the impact of TWs lynch. It gives RC room for not being the nightkill because of an incorrect flip on Scum!Ari. But there's wiggle room for RC to flip back to Ari because it made his initial read correct. That's an easily framed up mislynch.

I can see that only if Skitter is scum.

Agreed actually but I'm really not sold on Skitter being scum.

[RCEnigma]

Actually now that I put the attempted nightkill as Math it makes Town!Ari more likely.

Math dies as the biggest advocate for Ari's death, which lessens the impact of TWs lynch. It gives RC room for not being the nightkill because of an incorrect flip on Scum!Ari. But there's wiggle room for RC to flip back to Ari because it made his initial read correct. That's an easily framed up mislynch.

I can see that only if Skitter is scum.

Agreed actually but I'm really not sold on Skitter being scum.

What are you not sold on?

I think I can make a pretty convincing case.

Did you look at my meta link of Skitter and associatives and how she tried to say she’d vote me after the suggested ino and her explanation as a pairing after is crap. If she thought it before she wouldn’t have just said I could be scum after I pushed her. She’d have pushed me first.

I'll look it over on a Skitter reread but with no scumflips I'm hard pressed to flip my townread.

[RCEnigma]

Convenient I'd say.

[RCEnigma]

That’s a quick and dirty, but I can come up with a scum narrative fairly well. Part of it is how tomorrow plays in any world: if there is a green flip he is likely the lynch, and so I’m wondering if it’s better to have his flip now to make tomorrow have a better chance of cohesion and solving fegardless of the color he does flip.

This is going to sound mean, but if you can't recognize me as town I have 0 confidence in this town to solve the remainder of the game.
If you're lynching me you're lynching up my lynchpool and winning.

That’s another reason I am conflicted (and have been saying so). I agree with your lynchpool. Gun to my head, I’d say you’re +rand town. But that’s not the ultimate question. The question is what is the most likely winning path. Because - and I think you agree - green today makes you a hell of a lot more likely tomorrow. Assuming town!you, is it better to tak you today and get the cohesion and perhaps a better chance at a red tomorrow, or is it better to chance it today when I think the thread is still going to be less cohesive/good of an environment (and there is a substantial chance of red).

Like this post and I'm gonna piggyback off it a bit before I keep reading on.

RC is very townreadable when he's being pushed as the primary lynch option. In the sense that his Poe is reasonable, his reads line up similarly with mine and the townblocks (minus himself) and the possible world's are reasonable/make sense. But that's really the only time I find myself agreeing with him and that's not a red flag but it's a slow down indication at least.

But trying to find scum motive outside of RC is tough as well especially in the context of both wagons on him today. Scum have the cover of the day 1 1v1 and the fact RC wasn't the nk target as the only claimed tpr. You can make the case for medic dodging but that's not the point I'm making.

Both wagons have been pushed by myself and math (conf town). And saudade recently. But neither wagon has gone anywhere. At the very least scum could try to pin a mislynch on me if RC is town. Unless scum are stuck in the trap of townreading both myself and RC so they can't make that pivot without catching flak for it. That's specifically Ari and Skitter.

But Ari went the opposite way day 2 going from scumreading me to townreading me I think after the initial wagon on RC. And the pairing of Ari/Skitter had all of day 1 to set up a trajectory that allowed Town!RC to be mislynchable day 2. Because they would know day 1 was a TvT pissing contest but neither took that route.

If RC is town scum are buddying him for what? Regardless of his flip the slots townreading him are in the Poe. Nearly everyone's Poe. With like the exception of shos I think... Maybe Bella idk Bella's reads.

Maybe I'm way off but I think both Ari and Skitter are highly competent scum players and the wagon Dynamics would have been different with them both as scum with RC!town.

I can't wrap my head around scum A.) Not wanting to play around a mislynchable RC and 2.) Not wanting to deal with him via nightkill simultaneously. He's just not a townplayer you ignore entirely.

[RCEnigma]

FL says hi saudade.

Here's a question
has your team had any thoughts on the game so far?

All of my team's thoughts are in my iso and they are all within day 2s posts. Outside of those there aren't more reads, they're more focused on wrapping up games that are further along than ours.

[RCEnigma]

Do you have any questions for me specifically?

[RCEnigma]

Baaaa.

[RCEnigma]

Btw Ari just claimed serial killer get him

HURT: Aristophanes

Shit you're good!

Btw Ari just claimed serial killer get him

He’s woefully inefficient leave him alone XD

He’s probably scum or town *joking tone*

Oh sure, point out my inefficiency

I think you'd make a great murderer fwiw.

UwU

[RCEnigma]

Why is RC still alive? -RCE/Jingle 2020

[RCEnigma]

RC isn't this bad. I don't know if he drops that bullshit "I'm not responsible for this wagon" line if Plum is a partner though. So at least that's going for him.

[RCEnigma]

Because I suck at the wordy words

Same.

[RCEnigma]

Anyone around to ask me questions?

[RCEnigma]

FL says this saudade wagon is dumb. The counterwagon is obvious. Also saudade specifically he says go ham.

[RCEnigma]

Town on saudade.

[RCEnigma]

So, we can't get you to vote either of them today, but after I get lynched (if I get lynched) you keep your options open on your read on both. Gotcha.

If neither are mislynches from your pov then this is an awful take.

[RCEnigma]

FL says this saudade wagon is dumb. The counterwagon is obvious. Also saudade specifically he says go ham.

Similar for FL too.

I wanna see where we agree and disagree

You'll disagree on his Ico read because he's adamant Ico is scum with RC based on play.

[RCEnigma]

RC isn't this bad. I don't know if he drops that bullshit "I'm not responsible for this wagon" line if Plum is a partner though. So at least that's going for him.

He’s always not accountable for any.

Yeah RCE can you do a readwall sans reasons? A read hierarchy I guess

Titus scumreads you and well I kinda am just placating her since she’s all RC is scum but now he’s town. He’s scum! He’s town

I am just like ooook?

I don't think Titus reads me very well historically and she's wrong here but it's still early.

Town Math Skitter Ico Teacher saudade
Prob town Ari Flopz
Prob scum bella
Scum - RC

Xtoxm is null but like nulltown. I don't think he wants to deal with RC, I think that was the explanation I got from my team pregame.

Show can be either way. I don't like their play so far, o don't like RCs play around that slot. I think their teamreads are misguided and I don't know if it's because they know shos is scum and are working around that or they're all just off.

[RCEnigma]

FL says this saudade wagon is dumb. The counterwagon is obvious. Also saudade specifically he says go ham.

Similar for FL too.

I wanna see where we agree and disagree

You'll disagree on his Ico read because he's adamant Ico is scum with RC based on play.

At this point I am definitely interested in all theories.

Sure it may not be something to explore this second but it may help down the line. Especially if you’re town and demonstrated so later.

Oh then the basically FL scumreads Icos iso, which I agreed with up until his plum push. But I'm not great at reading Ico. I think I've misread him every game we've played together as both alignments. So I was still considering it.

He also scumreads him on the basis that RC would be obscuring associates and RC/Skitter felt too blatant. Ergo the associatives would be simpler and less direct.

But I'll also go back and double check because that was a start of day read and I feel I'm misrepping it.

[RCEnigma]

RC isn't this bad. I don't know if he drops that bullshit "I'm not responsible for this wagon" line if Plum is a partner though. So at least that's going for him.

He’s always not accountable for any.

Yeah RCE can you do a readwall sans reasons? A read hierarchy I guess

Titus scumreads you and well I kinda am just placating her since she’s all RC is scum but now he’s town. He’s scum! He’s town

I am just like ooook?

I don't think Titus reads me very well historically and she's wrong here but it's still early.

Town Math Skitter Ico Teacher saudade
Prob town Ari Flopz
Prob scum bella
Scum - RC

Xtoxm is null but like nulltown. I don't think he wants to deal with RC, I think that was the explanation I got from my team pregame.

Show can be either way. I don't like their play so far, o don't like RCs play around that slot. I think their teamreads are misguided and I don't know if it's because they know shos is scum and are working around that or they're all just off.

Shos is town if RC is scum almost certainly.

RC ran from BoP and my meta read is shos town.

Do you have a game where Xtom is more active? Or can link one?

Id say LNT which was an Xtoxm scum game but it's a long read. It's also supplemented by mini games taking place in private threads between night phases.

[RCEnigma]

Oh then the basically FL scumreads Icos iso, which I agreed with up until his plum push. But I'm not great at reading Ico. I think I've misread him every game we've played together as both alignments. So I was still considering it.

He also scumreads him on the basis that RC would be obscuring associates and RC/Skitter felt too blatant. Ergo the associatives would be simpler and less direct.

But I'll also go back and double check because that was a start of day read and I feel I'm misrepping it.

HOLD IT THERE

You're saying that Flavor Leaf, before Iconeum outed as having saved Mathblade, said that Iconeum made sense as scum with me?
But now, following Iconeum claiming protective on Mathblade (which should upend any read), Flavor Leaf has not given an updated read yet you're still giving it as if it's relevant?

That seems like something a town-aligned player would really really really not do!

He still reads Ico as your partner. Read the posts man, this is like 3 posts in a row where you are twisting posts to mean something else.

[RCEnigma]

Yeah no I had it mostly right. RC associatives wouldn't be obvious, RC/Skitter for example. He came to the Ico conclusion based on the non obvious route.

[RCEnigma]

Yeah no I had it mostly right. RC associatives wouldn't be obvious, RC/Skitter for example. He came to the Ico conclusion based on the non obvious route.

Uhm RC/Ico I would only consider in Mylo/Lylo

That’s a bit too moonlogicky for my blood.

Hell at that point you could even call me scum with RC and he was spewing he killed no one.I am not but I mean that’s how ridiculous your theory sounds ....

That was FLs read. I don't think it's likely but I also don't think he knows about Ico's doc claim.

[RCEnigma]

Yeah no I had it mostly right. RC associatives wouldn't be obvious, RC/Skitter for example. He came to the Ico conclusion based on the non obvious route.

RC/Skitter isnt “obvious” btw otherwise scum would have sheeped me on Skitter immediately or when I pushed a vote on her.

They'd have to make an enemy of me in the process. So damned if they do damned if they don't.

[RCEnigma]

That was FLs read. I don't think it's likely but I also don't think he knows about Ico's doc claim.

so, again, it was a much earlier read that you have presented to mathblade as still relevant despite a major data point that should affect the read, as I pointed out

He saw there's a wagon on saudade, so I assume he's read some of the recent pages. I asked if he knows about the protective claim because he still scumreads ico. So idk what all he's read.

If you're adding FLs reads as a reason to scumread me then... Cool. But I don't care.

[RCEnigma]

Even this discrediting now is oozing with scum.

[RCEnigma]

Math, do you really think that Flavor Leaf has a recent scumread that puts myself and Iconeum together and yet he has nothing to say about Iconeum claiming protective on you?

I think when RCE does the read hierarchy I asked for himself and Flavor Leaf the question will answer itself

The question already answered itself.

Then pretend it hasn’t for those slower than you and let RCE spew if you believe that.

I don’t see your point right now but maybe with the read hierarchies it will make sense

I thought you were asking for a reads list. Idk what you mean by a hierarchy then?

[RCEnigma]

And you didn't ask that question

before

you asked him if the Ico read factored that in? Only after you got called out for it?
You didn't think from the receiving end of that logic "hey maybe I should ask FL if he knows that Ico claimed protective" until you had to try to argue the timing of the read?
c'mon. that's not actual sorting. that's just giving 'teamreads!' to seem towny.

Math asked about what him and FL would agree/disagree on.

[RCEnigma]

You can take whatever you want out of context, I'm not going back and forth with you. At this point your opinion doesn't mean anything to me and I'm done giving it a platform.

[RCEnigma]

Math asked about what him and FL would agree/disagree on.

And you presented it as a relevant, current read, not a "hey FL mentioned this one thing but it's really out of date and I need to check up with it if its still true"
You had to be called out on it not really making sense before you started backtracking and coming up for new justifications for why it didn't make sense.

Not true, I stated the reasoning he gave for the connection wasn't fresh in my mind. Double checked and I was presenting it accurately.

[RCEnigma]

Town Math Skitter Ico Teacher saudade
Prob town Ari Flopz
Prob scum bella
Scum - RC

Xtoxm is null but like nulltown. I don't think he wants to deal with RC, I think that was the explanation I got from my team pregame.

Show can be either way. I don't like their play so far, o don't like RCs play around that slot. I think their teamreads are misguided and I don't know if it's because they know shos is scum and are working around that or they're all just off.

[RCEnigma]

FL isn't even in this game. I don't expect him to know everything that's happened this game. He's continued a scumread on Ico that existed day 1. I know for a fact it's in my iso.

I'm not summarizing this game in our pt and we aren't constantly discussing. When he gets back and responds to being informed of Ico's claim I'll let you all know what he thinks about it.

[RCEnigma]

Town Math Skitter Ico Teacher saudade
Prob town Ari Flopz
Prob scum bella
Scum - RC

Xtoxm is null but like nulltown. I don't think he wants to deal with RC, I think that was the explanation I got from my team pregame.

Show can be either way. I don't like their play so far, o don't like RCs play around that slot. I think their teamreads are misguided and I don't know if it's because they know shos is scum and are working around that or they're all just off.

And FL’s?

I don’t see his

He doesn't have a current grouping of reads but I'll go through and put together from bits he's talked about.

[RCEnigma]

Who all is V/LA? It only shows Ari and I want to ask him about a couple things but stalling the game out until the 10th is shitty.

VOTE: Xtoxm

Maybe my worst fears came true and the scumteam is RC/TW/Xtoxm.

Xtoxm votes would be cool.

rce can you hit me up with a readslist real quick?

Without a ton of explaining probably:

{Skitter Tris teacher}

{RC}

{Math*}

{Bella, flopz, Ico}

{Xtoxm, plum, Ari}

* Mostly a teamread and the way RC has interacted with Math and vice versa kind of reinforces the way the read was explained to me. But I'm null to scum leaning them personally.

Pretty sure Xtoxm is scum btw. The pop in to call Ico scum for pushing an easy mislynch but doing nothing to make himself a harder lynch doesn't feel like a town!Xtoxm move especially in the team mafia setting.

Xtoxm I still want to murder you. Ama?

Waiting on Xtom too.

There's a wild Xtoxm lurking that wants to see the world burn so I won't l-1 but consider this intent to hammer.

OH MY GOD THIS IS EVEN WORSE

YOU JUST SAID YOUR TEAM TOLD YOU PREGAME THAT XTOXM WOULD HARD LURK WITH ME IN THE GAME

YET YOU PUSHED HIM AS SCUM THE ENTIRE FUCKING DAY 1 FOR IT???

Again false, I said he didn't want to deal with you.

[RCEnigma]

Understandable, your a pain.

[RCEnigma]

You're* even.

[RCEnigma]

Math my team really wants you to get Titus and Deb to look into sorting RC. We all strongly believe RC to be scum here. FL is doubling down on Ico scum here.

RC not considering Ico scum when RC ended the day as claimed detective AND having the save end up elsewhere is suspicious. It seems likely Math is being setup as the conf!town patsy here to get him on scums side. A deep pocket.

[RCEnigma]

iconeum isn't a townread slot because of the claimed save. i have repeatedly expressed my surprise at the version of events that led Mathblade to be the save.
I even considered the possibility that the save was fake, and discarded it because, again, Iconeum is towny.

acting like it's somehow strange that I believe the claimed protective when I, duckling, and pretty much every town player agrees that they're towny is amazing

You don't question Ico when 1.) He ended the day townreading you and that read only strengthened day 2 when he was willing to vote within his townblock at the time over you.
And B.) When the claim comes out and with A in mind he claims a save on Math over the only claimed TPR, which he townreads in the first place.

That doesn't make a NK likely in any world. It should make you think you were the save.

[RCEnigma]

also you know what the most incredible part of that claim is? that you are saying that you actually got something_smart to read a 246 page to give a read on me

SS actually hasn't read this game at all. The discussion about this game is myself/jingle/FL, so fair enough.

[RCEnigma]

SS actually hasn't read this game at all. The discussion about this game is myself/jingle/FL, so fair enough.

and once again
you said all of your team, ie including SS
i pointed out how something you posted didn't make any sense at all
you backtracked on it
not before you got called out on how it didn't make sense, after.

That team never kills me though.

I think one if not more of those are wrong.

Disagree and I explained my reasons for it. That team actually sees very little value in killing either myself or Skitter relative to other teams and since 2 of them are on a trajectory to vote me it sees a lot of value in killing you simply for the "Mathblade said kill RC if he died" value.

See you're again hanging on minute things to shade the entire rest of the point being made.

I'm 100% sure on this read. Anyone claiming TvT here is bullshit. This is for sure a scumflip.

[RCEnigma]

and despite me repeatedly knowing what the holes in what you're saying are from a town perspective and you correcting what you're posting after prompted by me
you aren't even slightly fazed by the fact that I am somehow predicting exactly what your team would be saying as town vs as scum before you actually say what it is

that's the point where a townie starts to wonder hmm maybe this person is actually legitimately reading me and seeing legitimate holes in my arguments. but you're scum who has to call me scum, so do your thing.

You argue in every game you play without fail. So why would arguing being a skill you have bear any weight on what alignment you rolled?

[RCEnigma]

minute things?

the fact that you knew a player was liable to lurk because of my presence in a game and you pushed them as scum the whole game without referencing that, is that a minute thing?
the fact that you outed a read that was clearly not based on current thread activity and had to be called out on it before you started backtracking and adjusting the claim, is that a minute thing?
the fact that you claimed your entire team had a read and I had to point out "ok so why in the fuck is SS reading a game and giving a read on someone he can't read" before you backtracked, is that a minute thing?

Yes it's minute because him taking issue with you doesn't magically make him town. I can hold that read with or without that information.

Yes because SS does not constitute our whole team. So even if he said guys RC is town that's still 1 of 4 opinions. How does SS reading or not reading matter in the slightest.

[RCEnigma]

I think me and Titus being disconnected is like, the definition of me and Titus in the same game?? When do we ever agree on reads

Yes it's minute because him taking issue with you doesn't magically make him town. I can hold that read with or without that information.

Yes because SS does not constitute our whole team. So even if he said guys RC is town that's still 1 of 4 opinions. How does SS reading or not reading matter in the slightest.

No one said that you couldn't NOT TOWNREAD xtoxm. But your top scumread is someone who is lurking because of something you know is NAI? And you don't mention that? realllly

because you said your whole team gave a read. your whole team includes SS. myself, Jingle, and FL does not mean the same thing as my whole team.

He's. Not my top scumread.

He was a scumread day 1 before RC vs TW if that's damning then whatever. It's a bunch of smoke to me. It is to you too but fight for what you have to.

If SS has no reads on the game then there isn't a need to include him. Anyway, my whole team scumreads you. So tell me how bad my reads + FLs reads +Jingles reads are.

[RCEnigma]

RCE, help out those who aren't RC right now. If you knew why Xtom was lurking (which is apparently NAI), why were you trying to push him, at least partially, based on the lurking?

I knew he didn't want to deal with RC specifically but I don't know why he chose to detach from the game completely instead of just ignore RC.

So there is a need to determine if he's lurking as scum or as town. I can't just ask him right?

[RCEnigma]

he was your top scumread on D1. you put him at the bottom of your readslist and were voting him for a plurality of the day and kept shading him during RC vs TW.
if you want to get into a tizzy about whether he was your *top scumread* when you spent most of the day calling him scum for lurking which you knew was NAI, you've already lost.

If SS has no reads on the game then there isn't a need to include him. Anyway, my whole team scumreads you. So tell me how bad my reads + FLs reads +Jingles reads are.

Why would I do that though? you're just scum. why should I give you an out after I flip

No one else had any interest in sorting him. So I'm not going to press on with a wagon no one even cares about.

[RCEnigma]

dont think shos-rc is all that likely tbh, i think rc would somehow make things look cleaner between them?
idk

@Ico I really wanna townblock RCE

i think he'd be a solid pick up for you guys

p-ed
@math

@RCE @RC

What do you both make of this?

If Xtoxm let RC have his way in either of these 1v1s with him and didn't express that I never take this line as scum, it would be a scumclaim. Its why he's nulltown for me.

[RCEnigma]

That was FLs read. I don't think it's likely but I also don't think he knows about Ico's doc claim.

so, again, it was a much earlier read that you have presented to mathblade as still relevant despite a major data point that should affect the read, as I pointed out

He saw there's a wagon on saudade, so I assume he's read some of the recent pages. I asked if he knows about the protective claim because he still scumreads ico. So idk what all he's read.

If you're adding FLs reads as a reason to scumread me then... Cool. But I don't care.

Let's operate under the assumption this was a current read, you didn't ask why he still thought that?

It's not a read I was interested in pushing and don't know how caught up he was in my game so not really.

[RCEnigma]

If Xtoxm let RC have his way in either of these 1v1s with him and didn't express that I never take this line as scum, it would be a scumclaim. Its why he's nulltown for me.

What is this read supposed to even mean?

And why would you never take this line of play as scum, lol.

It would mean you were town here. You've seen my interactions with town!you/ scum!me. Even when we bumped heads in 2058 it was way different. We've interacted as every different alignment and this isn't comparable to magical girls at all. We both know that.

[RCEnigma]

]
It's not a read I was interested in pushing and don't know how caught up he was in my game so not really.

So why even bring it up at all if you're not sure about its basis or if where it comes from is even relevant?

Math asked me about my teammates take. So I told him that was the read that Math would disagree with.

[RCEnigma]

Flopz: The Mathblade Whisperer

It would mean you were town here. You've seen my interactions with town!you/ scum!me. Even when we bumped heads in 2058 it was way different. We've interacted as every different alignment and this isn't comparable to magical girls at all. We both know that.

I mean, we literally didn't interact in magical girls. At no point was I interested in going after you. I always had a stronger scumread than you and I considered you a PoE slot that I had no immediate impetus to go after. I was willing to lynch you on D2 because Sakura Hana who I respect thought that you were scum. You flipped scum.

You should know that that was an extremely unusual game for me-you interactions for that reason so comparing to it... really doesn't make sense?
Like the claim that because you didn't go after me when I was one of the few people who didn't hard scumread you means you would never go after me is lol

We (or at least myself) were playing around yeah. So yes we didn't interact for that reason.

Unless you think my stance on you 180'd between them and now I don't think town!you finds my push here scum indicative.

[RCEnigma]

Math asked me about my teammates take. So I told him that was the read that Math would disagree with.

Why do you, as town, choose to start with the least relevant read where you're not sure if he is up-to-date on?
On the contrary I think that, as scum, starting with a super spicy read is something that you would do because it makes you feel townier to give original, against the grain reads.

The only recent reads are on you saudade and Ico. I gave all three.

[RCEnigma]

We (or at least myself) were playing around yeah. So yes we didn't interact for that reason.

Unless you think my stance on you 180'd between them and now I don't think town!you finds my push here scum indicative.

I think that comparing a game where I was hydraed with the single hardest town player on this website to mislynch to one where I'm playing solo and many people scumread me is disingenuous as fuck.

I haven't played scum against you anywhere else.

[RCEnigma]

Flopz, pls explain why RCE's approach to Xtoxm was a problem for me

RCE had prior knowledge that Xtoxm lurks whenever RC is in a game with him. Knowing this fact, RCE still pushes him as scum (while apparently he isn't his top scumread) multiple times using his lurking as one of his reasons for doing so. He also never brings up this piece of information to the rest of us and instead kept it to himself as he apparently didn't see a reason to comment on it.

Additionally, RCE has now said, after the fact, that he never tried to sort Xtoxm. So why was he pushing so hard for him to be scum?

I still don't see why it's relevant as it's only a possible reason to lurk and still doesn't do anything for me gauging his alignment. So let's say I came out with Xtoxm is lurking because he doesn't want to play with RC. But he won't play if he isn't wagoned so let's get some votes going.

You can see how that makes the slots pushing there disingenuous and a poor analysis point. It also still doesn't guarantee Xtoxm plays because a wagon generated like that doesn't stick at all.

[RCEnigma]

This is even worse than the saudade wagon lol. When I flip no one gets to argue RC as town. Not even a little bit. You guys don't get to Lynch TW by feeding into his bullshit then me for feeding into his bullshit and still consider a world that RC is town.

[RCEnigma]

I still don't see why it's relevant as it's only a possible reason to lurk and still doesn't do anything for me gauging his alignment. So let's say I came out with Xtoxm is lurking because he doesn't want to play with RC. But he won't play if he isn't wagoned so let's get some votes going.

You can see how that makes the slots pushing there disingenuous and a poor analysis point. It also still doesn't guarantee Xtoxm plays because a wagon generated like that doesn't stick at all.

Understandable, but you also said you weren't trying to sort him. So why were you voting for him?

RC said I wasn't trying to sort him.

[RCEnigma]

This is even worse than the saudade wagon lol. When I flip no one gets to argue RC as town. Not even a little bit. You guys don't get to Lynch TW by feeding into his bullshit then me for feeding into his bullshit and still consider a world that RC is town.

I agree.

This wagon is more telling of RC than Saud though as this seems more SvT and Saud v RC feels SvS or TVT

This game is blowing my mind and I think it's mostly off poor dayplay by town.

But on my flip keep my skitter read in mind. Ico should be self resolvable but keep RC/Ico as a possibility.

[RCEnigma]

No one else had any interest in sorting him. So I'm not going to press on with a wagon no one even cares about.

Yet you did multiple times.

If you're going off the multiquote from RC there are reach outs for Xtoxm to interact with me or the thread. But context isn't important in mafia.

[RCEnigma]

This is even worse than the saudade wagon lol. When I flip no one gets to argue RC as town. Not even a little bit. You guys don't get to Lynch TW by feeding into his bullshit then me for feeding into his bullshit and still consider a world that RC is town.

I agree.

This wagon is more telling of RC than Saud though as this seems more SvT and Saud v RC feels SvS or TVT

This game is blowing my mind and I think it's mostly off poor dayplay by town.

But on my flip keep my skitter read in mind. Ico should be self resolvable but keep RC/Ico as a possibility.

How come every time I disagree with someone I am dumb or making a bad play?

It gets exhausting and only makes me double down on my opinion of where I was.

I kinda am fed up with RC hopping wagons and would gladly vote him too.

Mainly I think one of these two hits paydirt and I don’t care which but Saud is almost certainly town

I'm not putting your play down. I only quoted this point because I'm speaking to you directly. Mostly because if you live through the night I want you in the best position to prevent another mislynch.

[RCEnigma]

No one else had any interest in sorting him. So I'm not going to press on with a wagon no one even cares about.

Yet you did multiple times.

If you're going off the multiquote from RC there are reach outs for Xtoxm to interact with me or the thread. But context isn't important in mafia.

I just looked through your ISO myself and searched Xtoxm. It's just you calling him scum and voting him. Sorry, I mean it's you voting him and then calling him scum.

Ok.

[RCEnigma]

This is even worse than the saudade wagon lol. When I flip no one gets to argue RC as town. Not even a little bit. You guys don't get to Lynch TW by feeding into his bullshit then me for feeding into his bullshit and still consider a world that RC is town.

I agree.

This wagon is more telling of RC than Saud though as this seems more SvT and Saud v RC feels SvS or TVT

This game is blowing my mind and I think it's mostly off poor dayplay by town.

But on my flip keep my skitter read in mind. Ico should be self resolvable but keep RC/Ico as a possibility.

How come every time I disagree with someone I am dumb or making a bad play?

It gets exhausting and only makes me double down on my opinion of where I was.

I kinda am fed up with RC hopping wagons and would gladly vote him too.

Mainly I think one of these two hits paydirt and I don’t care which but Saud is almost certainly town

I'm not putting your play down. I only quoted this point because I'm speaking to you directly. Mostly because if you live through the night I want you in the best position to prevent another mislynch.

Hmmm hypothetically Jingle has good advice for lynching deep wolves yes? How?

If you mean just in general I'll ask him. If you're referring to Skitter. If she is still reluctant to push RC after my flip then yeah she is probably scum. Otherwise I feel good about my read there.

[RCEnigma]

Seriously RCEnigma what's your thought process behind that? Do we want to be tying ourselves together from here to endgame if we're SvS?
2 mislynches from one scum slot is plenty and Skitter is more than capable enough to get herself to endgame off of my scumflip.

Why would her going after me make her more likely to be town than if she didn't, and why is she scum in the first place when you already hard townread her ISO?

Uhm...
I don’t think you read that right

He said after his town flip if Skitter doesn’t scumread you she is scum.

That's the point. Why can't Town!Skitter be hard pocketed? Why doesn't Scum!Skitter want to bus me?

Math will put it together after I flip. At least confident at the moment he will.

[RCEnigma]

just vig him 4head
reeks of scum saving an easy lynch for later
how often do you get vigs in a mini normal

Pretty often.

Tbh just me being in the game makes the likelihood of a vig go up.

Xtoxm votes would be cool.

You spoke to him then asked for votes with him. Why didn't you actually say something of substance to him when doing so? Doesn't seem like much of an olive branch (when you finally ask him to "AMA because you still think he's scum" it's literally 1000 posts later).

You went down the Xtoxm scum train a lot earlier than this too.

Xtoxm choosing to interact with no one instead of just choosing not to interact with RC is scummy. Skitter also doesn't want to be in the game with RC but has interacted with players including RC. I didn't want to be in a game with RC but I've interacted with players including RC.

This schism makes me think Xtoxm town for the amount of attention being paid to it but with RC leading it an anti-associative in play wouldn't surprise me.

[RCEnigma]

Teacher what's up. What are your actual thoughts on saudade?

[RCEnigma]

I liked the reversal of her Teacher read a

I don’t think it ever reversed?

@RC?

It did. Around the early 4k post point Skitter threw a vote on you. You were in her scum potential slots and you had a brief back and forth. She backed off on the basis her meta evaluation may not have been accurate in the first place.

Saudade later asked Skitter directly who she thought was scum. 4545 has saudade, math, and one other I don't remember. Plus the null low content slots. You aren't in there and it's a subtle re evaluation that points to theater or Skitter genuinely reconsidering reads.

[RCEnigma]

Also happy birthday!

[RCEnigma]

I doubt RC was wrong on Both me and Shos and I know I'm town in his solve but I'm not going to push the other way if Xtoxm ends up being the consensus.

Ideally RC being gone gets content out of his slot finally.

[RCEnigma]

Err I dunno if shos was in RCs final Poe or not. I know he waffled on the read a bit.

[RCEnigma]

Hi,

So that's a really weird kill, I was sure that scum would go after ico as a claimed doc. So I jail kept him last night to protect him.

I jailkept rce night one, which was why I was so waffly on my read yesterday - I thought he was town but the no kill really confused me.
It's also why j was less happy to just jump on 'we have two conf town'.
I'm outing this now as my role was only n1-2. Obviously there is a world in which rce and ico are both scum, mechanically.

@teacher, skitter, thoughts?

What do we make of Ari town casing saud after I was wanting to lynch him while we were wagoning shos?

This makes a lot of sense and lines up with your approach to my slot. Which I wasn't really sure how to interpret.

[RCEnigma]

@RCE updated reads upon RC flip please

I remember smt about there being exactly 1 scum in (RCE/RC) according to you

My reads are pretty much RC's dying reads with myself taken out of the scum pile.

[RCEnigma]

Math Ico Skitter Bella teacher probably Ari town.

I haven't given thought to a third yet, I'll get around to thinking tomorrow. Also want to reread RCs thoughts on Shos particularly since just from what I remember of EOD shos pushing on Xtoxm could have just been trying to move the wagon but RC was an option at the time so that might not be the case. That's also like level 0.

[RCEnigma]

I do remember Flopz exists but RC was adamant he's town so I'm not really looking there.

Xtoxm and Shos likely aren't together. The third is probably a deepwolf in that case. It's kind of important if the kill was on me or math because a n1 on me only comes from Ari/Skitter/teacher in this playerlist and of those Teacher is the most likely in a vacuum but least likely in the context of our stance towards each other day 1.

If that makes sense.

[RCEnigma]

flopz is the least scummy of the little timmys
hes new, never played with rc and doesnt know any better
unlike every other slot blanket townreading rc

flopz is the least scummy of the little timmys
hes new, never played with rc and doesnt know any better
unlike every other slot blanket townreading rc

Who are these slots blanket townreading RC?

flopz, bella, skitter, ari

btw

every single one of the slots listened in 6405 scumreads saudade.

wonder what saudade is gonna flip and what that says about xtoxm's alignment.

Like, on an Xtoxm scum flip flopz is locktown.

[RCEnigma]

I think I'm sticking to a townread on Flopz. Like, newbie town. I mean no disrespect.

Completely agree on Xtoxm and shos not together, but +++++chance of 1 scum in there.

And my latest hottest take rn is something I will only take action on if Xoxm is scum -> Math is scum

My only problem with a Math/Xtoxm/Tris(at the time) scumteam is that I'm definitely not a priority nightkill over stronger players like RC/Skitter/Ari/you.

I play a largely social game, Xtoxm mostly not playing probably gets a tunnel but we both know he has before and can potentially fool me here with actual participation. I can't really rule out math making that kill because I had only just started warming up to him as town and Tris I was defending from RC when her allies we're kind of jumping ship.

[RCEnigma]

My wagon is a mix of radiantscumfuck, wolfy slots and a bunch of people who don't really think I'm scum but want the day over.

Anyone who thinks this hits red is deluded.

where the fuck are my teammates?

This might actually be the grossest mislynch I've seen in two years and I've seen some pretty dense mislynches. You are lynching a townie to try and fix the gamestate. I am clearly not the scumslot in this dichotomy and I am not the problem. EVEN AFTER SPAM POSTING MY THOUGHTS I STILL HAVE LESS THAN HALF HIS POSTS.

When I green:
- nobody touches math for the rest of the game.
- nobody touches rce for the rest of the game.
- nobody touches ico for the rest of the game.
- RC is lynched tomorrow. He autodies.
- I don't think RC was bussing Ari this phase but that's not for me to decide.

If anyone breaks from this path they are outright fucking gamethrowing.

it's not out of this world that scum decided to kill in these reads

Fair enough.

Was there anyone not willing to make a hard stance on RC near EOD 1?

[RCEnigma]

VT. In the process of repairing an axle.

[RCEnigma]

Hey shos was Xtoxm claiming neighborized enough to move him out if your scumpool? Because that's really the only Xtoxm related thing you've commented on.

Do you think I'm more likely to make the kill than be the nk target? And how does that make me + math a viable team?

[RCEnigma]

Around. Not read up.

[RCEnigma]

Well, that's a bad take for me. When the possibility I was the save is as likely.

[RCEnigma]

Lol no just no Alien is one of the most powerful role there is.

Very easily self confirming.

Two protectives + JOAt is op as fuck. Would need a traitor to balance along with three PRs at minimum like fuck.

Really gotta go

An example of a 9-4 setup. here

I won't say 9-4 isn't possible. But there is no way it gets approved for team mafia.

[RCEnigma]

If scum have to decide a NK between you or RC, occam razor suggests scum tried RC n1.

Which implicates you as scum :s

Well I know scum didn't try RC night one. Which is why I'm still hesitant to call math as scum. Fmpov the only two scenarios are I was targeted, which means nothing for maths alignment.

Or math was the target and there are two potential clears from that.

[RCEnigma]

Ughh this is a tough spot because like. I don't really want to tooth and nail fight my lynch, I know I'm a liability in lylo by virtue of being aliened on a nk night.

But we also only have 2 mislynches and I would take 1 of those away. The nks are already likely just Bella and Ico so no info to be gained and I don't feel my flip makes anyone's alignment any clearer.

After I flip the bulk of the conversation is going to repeat because it doesn't solve if I was the save or not. Shos/Xtoxm still has to be resolved. Math/Ari likely needs to be resolved and that only clears alignment 1 way I think. And if math is Town here with a save on him there is still a real possibility he gets lynched after I do and that puts town in a hole.

In that case, shos/Xtoxm isn't approached until Mylo and it's a do or die decision that absolutely has to hit scum.

[RCEnigma]

I’d rather focus on prob scum RCE than where we disagree on spec because however many people agree from the same deluded idea of balance that doesn’t carry over to other sites will just drag the game down

Does it really matter if we nail scum?

It does, we have 2 mislynches and that's it.

[RCEnigma]

I’d rather focus on prob scum RCE than where we disagree on spec because however many people agree from the same deluded idea of balance that doesn’t carry over to other sites will just drag the game down

Does it really matter if we nail scum?

It does, we have 2 mislynches and that's it.

You realize you have to go. Before Lylo.

Now I wonder why if you’re town you’re not questioning why Bella didn’t demand your lynch D2?

No you gave up because you’re scum

Because Bella doesn't know if I made the kill or I was saved. All she can do is question her previous read and make an assumption based on day play which is more likely. Which I acknowledged.

[RCEnigma]

ok let's assume we lynch RCE and that flips scum

who's the third?

If we go with Mafiascum “balance” Skitter or a deep wolf or shos

I don’t see a lurker scum here and I don’t trust my d1 when I was disagreeing with Titus enough to see a shos/Xtoxm much as I think shos slipped other people don’t see it that way but shos would be a good compromise

If we go with my idea Skitter + someone else

Skitter knows my scum game too well and if I was scum I kill her each time
She’s one of the few people who read me right and the fact she is failing now is bad

For a Skitter + me team shos has to be town and saudade elected to push RC's buttons over securing a lynch on town.

For me + shos shos has to be scum at L-1 in a scenario that makes bussing who's profitable and saudade elected to push RC's buttons instead of garnering towncredit.

I guess that one kind of depends on who has what role in that scenario.

[RCEnigma]

I’d rather focus on prob scum RCE than where we disagree on spec because however many people agree from the same deluded idea of balance that doesn’t carry over to other sites will just drag the game down

Does it really matter if we nail scum?

It does, we have 2 mislynches and that's it.

You realize you have to go. Before Lylo.

Now I wonder why if you’re town you’re not questioning why Bella didn’t demand your lynch D2?

No you gave up because you’re scum

Because Bella doesn't know if I made the kill or I was saved. All she can do is question her previous read and make an assumption based on day play which is more likely. Which I acknowledged.

But she never talked about you? It’s odd.

Like no one that is a PR is playing like one

It’s weird.

I can't be scum via a blocked nk AND Bella is lying about their role simultaneously. Which is what you're implying there.

[RCEnigma]

Oh god, Ari might be town and rce might be deepwolf.

I'm gonna be around a bunch today and tomorrow. My issue is with timezones - noone posts all day and I wake up to ten pages.

Banana. Flopz replaces thrilbert who I'm not sure even posted.

Can you talk to me about rce?

Valid. I wasn't massively impressed with your earlier content but this is better. I'm also not sure why saud isn't getting treated similar to you.

It's fine . I'm the best of the low hanging fruit slots and I'm kinda fine with it? Like you, I'm doing a lot of reading.


@rce, apart from saud saying I'm open wolfing I couldn't tell you their reads either...

@ico, you've been on four different wagons today. Can you give me your resosns why for each jump in like, a sentence each?


@rce, why not?

I want more organic content from shos. I'm back to being unsure on rce. I can't work out why saud/tris us getting a pass. Tom still isn't town

If some/all of these are somehow town then it's rc and Ari!

Math, I'm right about what rcs result means if true? I hate mechanic

P-edit, thanks teacher

How do you feel about skitter, rce?

Let's leave mechanics for a bit? It's so hard to read people arguing continually about something we literally don't know

These are day 2 posts either engaging me directly, engaging in content around me, or about me. Bella expressing her middle of the line read on me day 2 but still getting my opinion or reacting to opinions on me is consistent with both Bella's claimed n1 action and the possible results of it.

[RCEnigma]

ok let's assume we lynch RCE and that flips scum

who's the third?

If we go with Mafiascum “balance” Skitter or a deep wolf or shos

I don’t see a lurker scum here and I don’t trust my d1 when I was disagreeing with Titus enough to see a shos/Xtoxm much as I think shos slipped other people don’t see it that way but shos would be a good compromise

If we go with my idea Skitter + someone else

Skitter knows my scum game too well and if I was scum I kill her each time
She’s one of the few people who read me right and the fact she is failing now is bad

For a Skitter + me team shos has to be town and saudade elected to push RC's buttons over securing a lynch on town.

For me + shos shos has to be scum at L-1 in a scenario that makes bussing who's profitable and saudade elected to push RC's buttons instead of garnering towncredit.

I guess that one kind of depends on who has what role in that scenario.

For the first if that is Saud’s town meta as people claim I would buy it as it denies information to analyze
For the latter again I don’t know Saud never played with them

Soooo *shrug*

My first exposure to saudade was him trolling as town and the only thing that made his alignment readable was town slipping around setup information. Really old game but Skitter was in it and can corroborate. Then the game FL was day 1 IC and all of saudades content amounted to "I'm giving the IC my vote" literally all of it. Or the I am mason game.

I've never seen him try to solve tbh.

[RCEnigma]

ok let's assume we lynch RCE and that flips scum

who's the third?

Humor me and consider the converse for me. What changes when I flip town? What are your reads looking like in that case?

[RCEnigma]

Ugh. Another fun 1v1 “caught!scum” go round with RC. Is this like round 6? (math/flopz/ari/duck/skitter/math/RCE/am I missing any??)

Honestly I could give af at this point. This game sucks, and the thread is unreadable. Hope you’re proud.

Can you actually read this please.

Just the last 5 pages.

I did. I think I see what you’ve said but I’m fairly drunk so want to sober do it.

Holy shit Titus may not be so moonlogicky

Titus said Teacher +RCE and here when teacher avoids comment of RCE argument by RC is bad I kinda saw it
Then when RC made the argument and switched to Saud it was like grrrr

Titus hasn't made anything of the vote counts yet?

[RCEnigma]

I will vote as well. We have time to allow for a claim. Let’s get one.

intent to L-1 or hammer - whatever. Saud claim.

Just L-1 teacher. As conf town I will have hammer so day ends when town wants.

Because you said this and it isn’t true. I’m a stickler for accuracy (hence my round and rounds with RC on overstating and whether something was a reversal or wasn’t). You’ve said similar things before, and it’s not accurate and this time I felt like pointing it out, while at the same time sharing that I thought the distinction was not substantive/impt.

Also start here when teacher complains about me scumreading his shade

In the world you're considering right now. Which is that that I was blocked trying to kill RC.

Doesn't that make Teachers statement and subsequent argument all true?

[RCEnigma]

I will vote as well. We have time to allow for a claim. Let’s get one.

intent to L-1 or hammer - whatever. Saud claim.

Just L-1 teacher. As conf town I will have hammer so day ends when town wants.

Because you said this and it isn’t true. I’m a stickler for accuracy (hence my round and rounds with RC on overstating and whether something was a reversal or wasn’t). You’ve said similar things before, and it’s not accurate and this time I felt like pointing it out, while at the same time sharing that I thought the distinction was not substantive/impt.

Also start here when teacher complains about me scumreading his shade

In the world you're considering right now. Which is that that I was blocked trying to kill RC.

Doesn't that make Teachers statement and subsequent argument all true?

Yes, but TMI

That’s like if 38 out of 39 hints point to X being town but what if you’re not? And the not is accurate, more likely than not the person had a reason.

Teacher TMI'ng that your town but not conf town seems counter intuitive.

I also don't see the need to plant that seed of doubt if Teacher is scum and knows saudade is flipping scum with you being very vocal and adamant he was town. That to me is a substantially stronger platform to push a math mislynch the next day. Does that make sense?

[RCEnigma]

ok let's assume we lynch RCE and that flips scum

who's the third?

Humor me and consider the converse for me. What changes when I flip town? What are your reads looking like in that case?

I want you to answer this first.

If we lynch you and you flip town

what would be your dying breath solve right now?

Gun to my head shos/Ari.

If shos were to flip town... Xtoxm/anyone that's not Bella Ico teacher? I don't really have a solve for Xtoxm scum.

[RCEnigma]

UNVOTE: math

I agree with Ico and this is purely by tone.

I want Ari because of my TvS read of the pair.

@RCE somewhere in my ketchup you said that was a one way ratchet. Which way, and why not the other?

Ari flipping scum pretty much exonerates math. I think the information I got from my team was that he's buss averse and math was fully content pushing Ari through day 1 and day 2.

On the other hand Ari flipping town doesn't necessarily make math scum. Being overzealous town is still a possibility in that case.

[RCEnigma]

That's why you are objectively the best lynch today.

First off, there is just a higher probability of scum targetting the monster that is RC on N1, which means you are scum.
Second, there are a lot more scumteam possibilities that include rather then exclude you.

When you asked what solve I have if you flip town, it's still hurting my brain.

I mean. It didn't happen, idk what else to tell you.

[RCEnigma]

Ari flip doesn't do much for the game tho

or at least not as much as your flip

I'm not fighting for an Ari flip. Mostly agreeing flipping Ari isn't a great sort for maths alignment.

[RCEnigma]

If I'm today's flip fine. But like, don't plug your ears and say no way. I'm trying to engage with you specifically because if claimed prs are all town the town has to play around you and your reads.

I know I'm a mislynch but you don't, I would very much like you to at least entertain worlds that make sense post flip so it's not some unexpected scramble the following day.

I can die today but make a fucking plan.

[RCEnigma]

I think on isolated play (defenses and game state interaction) Ari seems really town. But RC made a couple association posts linking Ari with plum that make sense. I'd have to go through his iso to find them and that's a not right now job.

But from the top of my head the gist was light scumreading/light shading with an unwillingness to vote there. He may have been on the shos wagon that reached l-1 before RC backed off so Ari's vote coming before or after that observation was made would be worth looking into.

[RCEnigma]

You're damn right I'm shading the wagon, I've been pretty vocal about it too?

I mean, yes. I just think the way you are doing it gives you a high scum equity if/when Shos flips scum. Wanted to be sure it was indeed your intent.

MathBlade why would you declare intent to hammer on a person that has RC and skitter on their wagon
iirc you voted.. them both(?)

@Math
Can you address this please so I can address this please???

NVM I missed it.

MathBlade why would you declare intent to hammer on a person that has RC and skitter on their wagon
iirc you voted.. them both(?)

I am not.

Before someone hammers I want that answer.

I myself do not have intent.

Saudade that is a very scummy post from you and I feel like you're shading the wagon.

What is wrong, in your eyes, with voting someone you think is scum while others you think are scum are on the wagon, Saudade?

reread it, but slowly

Yes, I know what I said.

In a bubble where you scumread 3 ppl, 2 vote the third. You will refuse to vote your scumread because they are on the wagon?

Yeah idk if I'm on the right track with Ari/shos tbh.

[RCEnigma]

Yeah I mean saudade had the same antagonistic approach to Ari that he had with me so it's hard to convince myself Ari is scum with him.

[RCEnigma]

This is mostly to Skitter but if you consider Tris/shos/Flopz a viable team, that team always nks RC.

[RCEnigma]

I don't think Flopz is scum, I get Skitter pushing there. Or at least the argument makes sense.

[RCEnigma]

Why? Because they're calling me scum? Xtoxm could still be the scum in that pairing. I still haven't really double-checked RCs solves and thoughts on Shos. Or at least why he thought X on Shos or Y on Shos.

[RCEnigma]

Why? Because they're calling me scum? Xtoxm could still be the scum in that pairing. I still haven't really double-checked RCs solves and thoughts on Shos. Or at least why he thought X on Shos or Y on Shos.

Because you have a large towncore. Other then Xtox and shos there's like nobody else left, and I think we are in agreement it's probably not exactly Xtoxm/shos?

Yeah that's my issue too. But I don't think it definitely means shos!scum. Because I could easily be wrong on a townread.

[RCEnigma]

I mumbled ok Boomer to myself for most of these posts because I don't get where you're coming from at all.

[RCEnigma]

Also I hard laugh at the ideas that skitter and teacher are scums. They are by far the towniest slots in the game, more than RC lol

Give me a chance if RCE flips scum. I think you will see the associatives. Teacher imho is not town.

And RCE going okay boomer rather than building a counter world makes sense.

Because if you're town you're not reasoning with me the way I'm willing to consider the possibility of town!you.

[RCEnigma]

Also I hard laugh at the ideas that skitter and teacher are scums. They are by far the towniest slots in the game, more than RC lol

Give me a chance if RCE flips scum. I think you will see the associatives. Teacher imho is not town.

And RCE going okay boomer rather than building a counter world makes sense.

Because if you're town you're not reasoning with me the way I'm willing to consider the possibility of town!you.

Then that’s fine. Wrong but a fine stance to have.

You still have to present a case where you are shot instead of RC or me and it has to be more probable than you scum.

Me being a target doesn't have to be more probable than you being a target because they aren't mutually exclusive. Its why I'm not explicitly scumreading you. You could just as easily have been the nk target that was saved and I happened to be jailkept the same night.

In the world you are conftown via the save it's confirmed I didn't make the kill(jailkept) AND confirmed Teacher didn't make the kill (detective) which I honestly forgot about until literally right now.

[RCEnigma]

And if I'm the save then there's 1 scum in Skitter/Ari. They're really the only people that make that kill.

[RCEnigma]

Town deals in probability. Scum deals with could be.

OK, we are on common ground here.

Let's dial into your favorite traitor theory, and run it against the last 600 mini-normals (Here)
There are 27 games with traitors. Only 3 (11%) are 9-4. In those 3 they were against:

• 2-shot cop, sk, 3-shot neighborizer, and JK (1862)
  
• Disloyal Informed MAcho Ninja Neighbor N-12 Babysitter, N-1 cop, Macho informed IC, informed N3+ vig, neighbor, neighbor, and neighbor (2058)
  
• Watcher, Disloyal Vig, informed, 3-shot loyal neighborizer, and JOAT (2062)

Regardless of our disagreements over the power of town here, thats WAY more power than this town has. Can we give the 9-4 bit a break?

I can only speak for 2058 where scums power was traitor neighbor, informed, and I forget the other two. Goons maybe.

[RCEnigma]

Which isn't a lot of scum power but scum benefits from day 3 potentially being Mylo.

[RCEnigma]

Cool. Teacher where are you at reads wise currently?

Then again for both worlds where I flip town/flip scum.

After that I have something I want to run by you and get your opinion on.

[RCEnigma]

Ah you have Ari/math split. What I wanted to run by you was a world where math/Ari is TvT which would have made the Skitter wagon midday towndriven but saudade was a part of that so it doesn't hold weight. Skitter getting wagoned there would have meant scum was passing up on pushing both RC and Ari as mislynches.

I think the net takeaway though is that math/myself weren't targeted with the goal of pushing a mislynch.

[RCEnigma]

I put less stock into killing for reads after the D1 we had, and more stock in killing to remove power (RC) or uni-town reads and continue divisiveness. Normally I like sheeping the dead, but think this gameroom was such that reads had less weight. I genuinely expected D2 to be turbo-RC.

I thought he would be too. Can't really explain why I was the only push there. Scum locked in their stances I'd assume.

[RCEnigma]

Math I'm having a really hard time seeing how you're justifying 3 scum alive while not worrying that a mislynch today makes tomorrow Mylo.

[RCEnigma]

In that world* should probably add that.

[RCEnigma]

RCE, what do you make of ?Ico?'s point that you now kinda have to be resolved before mylo, speaking of?

It's fine. A scum flip today gives town an extra lynch which would make me feel a lot better about being lynched down the line.

[RCEnigma]

But if you're asking how it feels? It blows to be honest.

[RCEnigma]

Math im not meaning to offend with this statement however.

Once I flip I think you need to consider backing down from wanting to be towns voice, and play a supporting role instead. I think this is in the best interest of town.

[RCEnigma]

What's my vc at?

[RCEnigma]

I don't really want to interact with you tbh.

[RCEnigma]

I was waiting on Skitter but I missed her.

[RCEnigma]

Ico Bella teacher Flopz never go into the Poe.

Order of scum equity in the Poe:

Shos/Xtoxm, Ari, Skitter

Math probably town but I probably still wouldn't put them above Skitter in terms of towniness.

Skitter is really only a Poe option because I can't plausible rule them out as not being partners with any other given slot in the Poe.

[RCEnigma]

Plausibly*

[RCEnigma]

I was waiting on Skitter but I missed her.

sorry, my life has been busier than usual recently
i'll be around for a bit more tonight

anything in particular u wanna talk to me about ?

I didn't have anything particular in mind. Wanted your thoughts on how the day was playing out, what you're current solve was, general stuff.

[RCEnigma]

Gonna be afk all day Monday so use it as you will.

I still don’t see any cases or reasoning for shos scum. Just complaining that you can’t lynch me and don’t want to vote RCE in a whole lot of words without addressing the probability problems.

The closest you’ve said is we can’t know what happened, which is true. But you’re still not addressing the probability problem in that RCE trying to kill another player is the most probable event occurring assuming Bella’s claim is true.

Even if we assume RCE is town.

You then need to address why scum!shos + scum!saud shoots RCE or me. If you can’t do that then your reads are very likely wrong.

It’s not a matter of saying they could have and drop it. You need to think through the logical conclusions and how we end up here. If you want the shos wagon to take off you need to do that. Because right now it reads like the RC wagon yesterday. Me being pushing a wagon scum want rather than Saud. They hop on. RC pushes Saud. Saud is winning. Scum shop for counter wagons but RCE stays on RC hoping it would take off.

With the theory RCE scum having failed to kill RC the first time it’s much more likely they strongmanned RC to get rid of the PR and tried to kill him N1.

Until and unless you can explain what happens in a town RCE world to that kind of level it’s going to look like hogwash.

I have work and D&D tomorrow so you should be able to formulate a theory if you’re right. I just don’t think you are.

And I disagree on monopolizing things but consider this similar to what RC did with Saud. Floor is yours prove the theory wrong.

Jingle had a post about this and in summary it's a 1/12 chance strictly by numbers and something something that amounts to very little after the game started since we aren't robots and the values change as scum are going to give their subjective input in regards to the nightkill.

Someone else brought that point up earlier I can't remember who though, maybe Xtoxm.

[RCEnigma]

i feel like i'm running out of people that i want to wagon which means that i'm very desperately wrong somewhere, but i don't know where
and the two people i scumread the most aren't doable right now {math and flopz}

Skitter, you've been talking time and time again about you're scumreading me and I'm not really sure why. You kept bringing up about the "weird associations" between Me and RC but now he's been proven to be Town that doesn't hold water anymore. So can you tell me, at this moment in time, what are the reasons?

Not to speak for Skitter but you had a reverse pocket thing going with yesterday. Mostly that you weren't concerned with RC being anything other than town white knighting you.

[RCEnigma]

Agreed with this. RCE today, if scum then skitter next. But with teacher's last couple posts i'm really doubting this coudl be wolf as well.

i feel like i'm living in some sort of bizarro land where only like teacher is makign sense

[RCEnigma]

I thought about adding that you make sense to me just in general since it did seem backhanded. But I know Skitter didn't mean it that way.

[RCEnigma]

I found looking back through Tris iso more to connect them to Ari than to Math. But I did also come across Maths townblock of plum/Tris and plum has been a rigid townread for math from day 1 this game. Which only really indicates alignment if math is scum. So in both math/Ari math/shos there can be 1 but it works more like.

Ari red -> math town, shos +equity
Ari green -> math/Shos unresolved

Math green -> Ari +equity, shos unresolved
Math red -> Ari green, Shos +town eq

Shos green -> Ari unresolved, math +equity
Shos red -> Ari unresolved, Math +town equity unironically?

I don't find math hard defending shos all game as partner indicative in the sense it's overtly obvious.

[RCEnigma]

rce if you get lynched today where ought we be looking tomorrow ?

I wouldn't go Flopz tomorrow. I'm trusting RCs read there and I'm inclined to agree it's how newer players interact with RC in general outside of the newbie queue. That said like I got the same vibe so I know exactly where your read is coming from I just think with that specific interaction taken out of the equation the rest of his play makes sense as newer town.

I think teacher is on the right track. Ari is a vital piece of tomorrow's solve so if you need to do some night digging do that. The way he interacted with saudade is a good base but if you can pick anything else apart it's worth it.