Ok if you need it spelled out, the difference is I’ve been baiting a flopz wagon since Monday and have gotten nothing, which is crazy because (if flopz is town) I set up a miselim for scum on a silver platter and nobody caredIn post 2191, Super wrote:the same could be said for Johnny though, right? what's your read on Johnny?
Flopz is in my PoE and honestly could see them partnered with Autumn but this is a hot take that has no backing and I'd need to ISO the slots interactions
TM 2021 - Black Flag Nightless
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yeah but I made louder noises about them!!! and I was second. that’s arguably more important than first because that makes the wagon viable-
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I have intel that say this is probably just town!flopz, which is just like, disappointing and incongruous with my previous read of the gamestate which is why I went down to 0 townreads-
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you/me/koba all voting flopz in short succession - this should contain at least 2 town
I think the fact that no one else joined means that scum already had plans in motion for who they wanted to be the D1 elim and it wasn’t flopz.
Unfortunately the timing makes it kind of difficult to determine what the scumplan is/was, because in the same time frame, super started pushing infinity, mena replaced in, and we tried to wagon flopz. - is it that scum knew mena was going to replace into their partner slot and so were prepping to push {infinity??}? is it that scum knew mena was replacing into a townslot and wanted him dead before he could do damage? is it that super and her scum team had already decided on an infinity push and didn’t want to deviate from the plan?-
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auro, do you agree with infinity’s takes on mena?-
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@auro I don’t think SS has read anything except for snippets of koba v super which I asked my team for input on. as mentioned, my team isn’t able to keep up with this game so I ping them when I have specific things I want them to look at. I could ask him to give his opinion on that but, uh... idk how helpful it would be because he has no context-
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okIn post 2246, DkKoba wrote:after work but it has to do with gamestate more than anything wrt whos taking what stances-
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not sure how much I should say on mena right now given the lack of reading/comprehension-
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ok whatever now I’m feeling pissy because I don’t feel like me efforting was even worth it
I think I’m scumreading mena-
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I was actually going to say like almost the same thing infinity did about mena’s initial reads list except with the added bonus of my opinion of his read on me beinglazy. like his points about me were:
- energy: this is like, the reason I disagree the least with but by itself is a bad reason to put me in top town tier
- worried about my activity level!!!!! ok what, and also -> townread??
- haven’t read my case wall: ok why do you feel justified to talk about my activity level then because the whole point of my walls was to make up for lack of activity during busytimes
- “I should be sortable” - uh sorry? this is not a reason to put me in a top town tier. How does my being sortable put me in top townreads?-
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also other than fb the entire readslist basically matches up with the general consensus read on every slot-
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I’m actually really vibing with infinity’s description of mena playing a “towngame but in 480p.” because on the surface the readslist looks fine, but if you actually read the reasons for each read it’s just a bit like ????-
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ah yes, the good old “if you don’t agree with me then you must be scum!!!1!1!1!1!1!”
I didn’t put in 8 hours and write 5k words because I was scum, lmao. I would have been happy to coast on “being busy”
If you want to hash things out then I’m more than happy to do that. I’m not voting mena. I want to discuss this read. don’t come at me with the attitude of “I’m not going to townread you unless you agree with me” and maybe like - interact with me instead. I’m so fed up with everyone having this attitude. It sucks.
pedit: you’re just proving my point-
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It isincrediblyunpleasant to be in a game where everyone has this attitude of “I’m not talking to unless you agree with me that x is scum,” “if you vote x then you’re scum,” “if you dare to not agree with me then you’re scum and I’m not listening to you.” This is incredibly unproductive. I’m here because I want to figure things out as a TEAM. If everyone has this attitude then we get NOTHING done and guess what? mafia have already won because no one was willing to talk and we had no cohesion.-
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what exactly would you like me to talk about? I put my thoughts in the thread in order for other people to respond. I don’t have any questions for you specifically. if you disagree with my read then it’s kind of on you to explain why you disagree with it.In post 2285, Super wrote:
then talk to meIn post 2280, lilith2013 wrote:ah yes, the good old “if you don’t agree with me then you must be scum!!!1!1!1!1!1!”
I didn’t put in 8 hours and write 5k words because I was scum, lmao. I would have been happy to coast on “being busy”
If you want to hash things out then I’m more than happy to do that. I’m not voting mena. I want to discuss this read. don’t come at me with the attitude of “I’m not going to townread you unless you agree with me” and maybe like - interact with me instead. I’m so fed up with everyone having this attitude. It sucks.
pedit: you’re just proving my point-
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ok and??? I’m not scumreading you. Regardless of your alignment, your attitude doesn’t help. This is not a discussion of whether you are town.In post 2287, Super wrote:Lily what do you think that says about my fucking alignment? like at this point surely you can see I'm town being annoyed as hell about the game state and the way I literally can't cooperate with anyone here?-
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okay great. this would be lovely. I’d have appreciated if this was your initial response to me rather than what you actually posted.In post 2293, Super wrote:I'll respond to your read on Mena/Infinity later tonight Lilly, I'm on mobile atm and it's hard-
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sure feels like everyone. probably since it’s the most vocal people doing itIn post 2292, Firebringer wrote:
I mean its only like 3-4 people in this playerlist who are like this.In post 2284, lilith2013 wrote:It isincrediblyunpleasant to be in a game where everyone has this attitude of “I’m not talking to unless you agree with me that x is scum,” “if you vote x then you’re scum,” “if you dare to not agree with me then you’re scum and I’m not listening to you.” This is incredibly unproductive. I’m here because I want to figure things out as a TEAM. If everyone has this attitude then we get NOTHING done and guess what? mafia have already won because no one was willing to talk and we had no cohesion.-
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lilith2013 she/herSpice of Lifeshe/her
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I’m sure I said this somewhere but am also on phone and can’t find the quote. basically - I think on the surface you’re town. but I think that of most players this game, so something is very wrong with my reads/the gamestate. I’m trying to figure out what that is before I can be comfortable going back to townreading all the people I was townreading.In post 2291, Super wrote:
it isn't but it's funny how I bleed town and you guys seem to just get mad at me instead of trying to read me lolIn post 2290, lilith2013 wrote:
ok and??? I’m not scumreading you. Regardless of your alignment, your attitude doesn’t help. This is not a discussion of whether you are town.In post 2287, Super wrote:Lily what do you think that says about my fucking alignment? like at this point surely you can see I'm town being annoyed as hell about the game state and the way I literally can't cooperate with anyone here?
wouldn't solving my slot when interacting with me be helpful for you in the game? unless you're the sort of player who looks for scum and not town?-
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I mean you seem “towny” but yeah paranoia. will try to explain-
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I think it’s really easy to townread people who seem excited and talk a lot and effort. In a vacuum I’d like to believe that this is towny. My heart wants to townread people who do these things. But (sounding like a broken record yikes) energy /= alignment, effort /= alignment. Separately, I think your emotions are genuine, and I’d like to believe that it comes from town, but I’ve been burned on this a lot. I also have explicit info that you’re able to be high effort as scum. I have similar information on most of the other people who are high energy/effort in this game. We might all be town. I’d love for us to all be town. If this game had easier “targets” I’d probably be townreading the people I originally thought were towny based on “vibes.” But that’s not the way this game is panning out, so I don’t think I can afford to townread anyone that easily right now.
specifically on the “paranoia” read on you: didn’t even realize until later when people were like “have you met nancy drew” but you do come across as similar in some ways I think. and I had a major issue with being burned by emotional outbursts, so seeing your outbursts made me really wary. I 100% think they’re genuine. I just.... almost on principle don’t want to townread you just for being genuinely emotional. I don’t think that mafia should only be about who can get the most upset and whoever is the most upset gets to be locktown - that just feels really awful to me if everyone feels like they have to be emotional in every game in order to get anything done. I’m having trouble separating the rest of my feelings about your slot from the feelings about your emotional outbursts.-
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I’m not even sure that addressed the question but I hope that this makes things clearer. I would love for you to be town, I’m just having a really hard time separating my feelings about the emotional stuff enough to feel confident to read you, so I’ve basically decided I won’t try to force a read and figure stuff out elsewhere.-
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fb are you still scumreading chennis? I feel like you haven’t slapped him in a while. Who else do you think is scum?-
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In post 2237, lilith2013 wrote:
Ok if you need it spelled out, the difference is I’ve been baiting a flopz wagon since Monday and have gotten nothing, which is crazy because (if flopz is town) I set up a miselim for scum on a silver platter and nobody caredIn post 2191, Super wrote:the same could be said for Johnny though, right? what's your read on Johnny?
Flopz is in my PoE and honestly could see them partnered with Autumn but this is a hot take that has no backing and I'd need to ISO the slots interactionsIn post 2241, lilith2013 wrote:I have intel that say this is probably just town!flopz, which is just like, disappointing and incongruous with my previous read of the gamestate which is why I went down to 0 townreadsIn post 2243, lilith2013 wrote:you/me/koba all voting flopz in short succession - this should contain at least 2 town
I think the fact that no one else joined means that scum already had plans in motion for who they wanted to be the D1 elim and it wasn’t flopz.
Unfortunately the timing makes it kind of difficult to determine what the scumplan is/was, because in the same time frame, super started pushing infinity, mena replaced in, and we tried to wagon flopz. - is it that scum knew mena was going to replace into their partner slot and so were prepping to push {infinity??}? is it that scum knew mena was replacing into a townslot and wanted him dead before he could do damage? is it that super and her scum team had already decided on an infinity push and didn’t want to deviate from the plan?-
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why did yall pick now of all times to vote flopz when I was trying to wagon them yesterday-
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@mena it literally does not matter whether you’ve caught scum or not. you said yourself - we only need two townies to be incorrect and we’re screwed. working together is required. you and super both gave me the attitude of “well if you don’t agree with me then you must be scum” thing and not only is it exhausting/vaguely manipulative, it prevents us from actually working together as ateam.everyone needs to put the toxicity away.-
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I think I’ve talked about this but I’ll briefly recapIn post 2373, Menalque wrote:Okay, so I think there are two things I’d like to address here regarding you @lili
Firstly, the frustration. The post I wanted to make could basically have been summed up as “I’m finding this game very frustrating because I think there is obvscum present, I think I’ve tried to be reasonable and to explain why, I’ve checked that I’m not being biased by running it past my team who also think infinity is just terrible terrible terrible this game, and nobody will support my push on scum despite the reasons for /not/ doing so being incredibly weak — added to this, I think I’ve been very towny, I don’t think anything I’m doing makes much sense for me to do as scum unless you think my scumgame is literally purely bluffing (which it’s demonstrably not from previous examples) and if I were scum there are almost certainly paths of less resistance for me to take”.
I know you haven’t really been able to get into the game, and that’s partly why I’m frustrated — it felt like you were being resistant to TRing me for reasons that I don’t get, and on top of that you weren’t willing to give me a chance by sheeping me even to the point of being the third vote on a wagon I was and am very confident is on scum. Generally, when I want people to work with me, that doesn’t mean I want to be blind sheeped — but when I’m actively asking someone to help me apply pressure somewhere, they’re not voting elsewhere, and they’re saying they think X is scummy then I find it very frustrating when I don’t get material support. Especially when I was attempting to offer you a deal in the form of backing flopz tomorrow if you helped me with infinity today.
On first glance I thought your readslist looked good but it looked, like, optically good. The only real non-consensus read was fb. Since the whole brainpower thing etc, I mostly looked at the first post of reads. Your top tier of townreads felt weird to me but I didn’t have the chance to figure out why that was. I definitely didn’t feel comfortable townreading you when the only post I’d read more than in passing made me feel weird about you. I’ve explained this in a bit more detail elsewhere.-
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re: flopz offer, I also didn’t actually want flopz, I was just trying to bait a wagon-
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@fire: I think it makes me lean more towards scum!infinity for transitioning thereIn post 2361, lilith2013 wrote:In post 2237, lilith2013 wrote:
Ok if you need it spelled out, the difference is I’ve been baiting a flopz wagon since Monday and have gotten nothing, which is crazy because (if flopz is town) I set up a miselim for scum on a silver platter and nobody caredIn post 2191, Super wrote:the same could be said for Johnny though, right? what's your read on Johnny?
Flopz is in my PoE and honestly could see them partnered with Autumn but this is a hot take that has no backing and I'd need to ISO the slots interactionsIn post 2241, lilith2013 wrote:I have intel that say this is probably just town!flopz, which is just like, disappointing and incongruous with my previous read of the gamestate which is why I went down to 0 townreadsIn post 2243, lilith2013 wrote:you/me/koba all voting flopz in short succession - this should contain at least 2 town
I think the fact that no one else joined means that scum already had plans in motion for who they wanted to be the D1 elim and it wasn’t flopz.
Unfortunately the timing makes it kind of difficult to determine what the scumplan is/was, because in the same time frame, super started pushing infinity, mena replaced in, and we tried to wagon flopz. - is it that scum knew mena was going to replace into their partner slot and so were prepping to push {infinity??}? is it that scum knew mena was replacing into a townslot and wanted him dead before he could do damage? is it that super and her scum team had already decided on an infinity push and didn’t want to deviate from the plan?-
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idk I didn’t say the bait wasIn post 2413, JohnnyFarrar wrote:@lilith who, if scum, do you think would jump on a Flopz wagon? The gesture seems empty judging by the relative skill of this PLgood
But I think it does mean something that now people are jumping on a flopz wagon, so-
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everyone should take a break from the thread except like Johnny who should post a lot. this has been an announcement from your friendly neighborhood lilith.-
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that's an indemnity plan. fake news-
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yeah I really doubt that super and AL are bussing. why do you think that's possible?-
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If you think infinity is the weakest partner, who do you think is the third scum?-
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you think super would bus infinity because he is the weaker partner over amy, johnny, and flopz in that gamestate?In post 2570, Auro wrote:I wouldn't rule that out actually
I feel like Infinity would be judged the weakest partner in every case for third scum...? Or do you think this would narrow it down to a specific subsetlilith2013 wrote:If you think infinity is the weakest partner, who do you think is the third scum?-
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in my view this would require the third partner to be one of {fb/me/koba/chennis/auro}. I don't think that I, chennis, or auro were very townread at that point in the game, so that would require a third partner of fb or koba.-
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no.... I'm telling auro I think his theory is crazy-
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flopz is like the baitiest bait to ever want to bring to endgame, johnny is busy with a new baby, and amy was MIA for like 99% of the time she was in this game. you think super buses infinity over them??-
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see above - this applies to mena as well.In post 2308, lilith2013 wrote:I just.... almost on principle don’t want to townread you just for being genuinely emotional. I don’t think that mafia should only be about who can get the most upset and whoever is the most upset gets to be locktown - that just feels really awful to me if everyone feels like they have to be emotional in every game in order to get anything done.-
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ah speak of the devil
Johnny can you explain your read on Infinity given the context that his wagon hasn’t had more than two or three people on it, which is incongruous with you saying everyone wanted to elim him? Was this the primary reason you don’t want to vote him or are there other reasons?-
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hi I find this post not very helpful and maybe a bit nonsensical, since everyone was already taking a break. This is me reaching out to you to try to help you get back in the game. What would help you feel more engaged?In post 2645, Flopz wrote:I've been trying to get back into this game but this is kinda getting a bit much for me. Even before this current stuff, I really didn't want to have to play with Koba again and just them this whole game has been a lot. Last TM really took a lot out of me and I just don't want to have to go through that again. I'll give it a couple days and hopefully this stuff calms down and there’s a much more mellow gamestate.-
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eyeballs are still burning but I’m planning to properly read all the stuff that happened after mena replaced in tonight, including the cases on infinity vs mena-
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not sure how you can say this? there were multiple wagon attempts on her and she was straight up MIAIn post 2582, Auro wrote:Amy: Not weak
not townread at the timeJohnny: Slides by fine
like two people townread him, and they were... infinity and super. I think it’s more likely they would be trying to pocket him than hard defend. but yeah if flopz was the third partner with super and infinity, only having townreads from his partners is not a strong position.Flopz: Well liked at the time
I’m honestly pretty concerned that we disagree so heavily on this.AL was already receiving some pushes at the time. If both other scum were in {Johnny/Flopz/AL} subset maybe she'd push Koba though. Hmm.-
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lilith2013 she/herSpice of Lifeshe/her
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Not the fact that we’re disagreeing, I just can’t understand where you’re coming from on thinking super and infinity are bussing and then feels like your gamestate read is entirely different and I don’t know how you got there-
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lilith2013 she/herSpice of Lifeshe/her
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is doomed-ness not a function of positioning on d1?-
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lilith2013 she/herSpice of Lifeshe/her
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yeah Johnny I saw you in Betrayal and even though you weren’t super active, you still had some really insightful thoughts. Can you give us something?
I’ll make same offer as I did for flopz - what would help you get more engaged?-
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lilith2013 she/herSpice of Lifeshe/her
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again this is really frustrating because I feel like I efforted so hard on Monday in order to get myself on top of the game and it seems like the only person who actually read my posts were super and fb. if you have little opinion of me, you should look at those posts. if you don't think the effort I spent on those is town-indicative enough alone, you can maybe read the posts themselves.In post 2678, chennisden wrote:I have frighteningly little opinion on Lilith. FB also is a slot, I guess.-
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lilith2013 she/herSpice of Lifeshe/her
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like I'm now regretting even bothering because I just wasted 8 hours of my life to be in the same exact position as I was before-
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lilith2013 she/herSpice of Lifeshe/her
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sorry reading is not happening today.-
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lilith2013 she/herSpice of Lifeshe/her
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please explainIn post 2714, chennisden wrote:Ok my concern on lilithz was because - I remember what she did around the Flopz wagon and if Im right on Flopz alignment then what Lilith has done around the slot is incredibly scummy-
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lilith2013 she/herSpice of Lifeshe/her
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okay, would you like to discuss? do you have specific questions that I can address? or I can do a word vomit type post explaining it if you prefer.-
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lilith2013 she/herSpice of Lifeshe/her
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I think flopz is town..................In post 2728, chennisden wrote:In post 945, lilith2013 wrote:
I’m a major lurksack when I’m working until 2am most nights and weekends and my eyes hurt so much that I physically can’t look at a screen without tearing upIn post 930, DkKoba wrote:i was told ur a major lurksack as scum by teammates and theres also ~reasons~
do u have any opinion on at least a skim of anything? just like a little flash read helps sort u
I coincidentally happened to roll scum like 6 times in a row after I became really busy at work
I skimmed like 20 pages that happened between Friday night and Saturday night and the one thing I retained was that I didn’t like flopz’ (and whoever he was talking to) foray into what seemed like irrelevant meta discussions. I don’t even remember if it was flopz or what was being discussed, I just remember disliking it because it didn’t seem like it was helping anyone on either side sort the other and so felt unnecessary. I think maybe the wagons being so evenly split is a sign that scum didn’t really care where the wagon was at that time, so potentially all wagons on town.In post 1410, lilith2013 wrote:Spoiler: thoughts re: infinity/autumn
Spoiler: thoughts re: chennis
Spoiler: thoughts re: super
Spoiler: thoughts re: auro
Spoiler: thoughts re: koba
Spoiler: thoughts re: amy (ampharos)
Spoiler: thoughts re: flopz
Spoiler: thoughts re: fbIn post 1414, lilith2013 wrote:and finally, quick summary of where I think I am in terms of reads:
infinity/autumn: probscum, don't like recent "oh let me reevaluate the townbloc, super might be scum" stuff without seeming to put in much effort to reevaluate
chennis: like his vocal dissent, think it's not scum-indicative
super: ???? fucking paranoid
auro: probably town I think based on similar thoughts on infinity but not very strong read
koba: probably town but I want to scumread them but it's probably only because I didn't like their approach to me and I'm kind of trusting some other reads on this one
amy: null
flopz: scum please burn with fire
fb: ???????? who the fuck knows
johnny: null
i went thru and skimmed your iso real quick and this is all the "baiting" you did. it seems kind of disingenuous to imply (but notIn post 1448, lilith2013 wrote:I don't really disagree with the vote itself but super and infinity are both townreading flopz and I'm just like ?????????????????really imply) flopz is scum because of this, when like... i dont even think anyone, scum probably included, remembered this happened at all
and this kinda screams tmiIn post 1896, lilith2013 wrote:I honestly cry a bit at every flopz post and if he’s town, I’m struggling to see whyn o o n eis pushing him-
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lilith2013 she/herSpice of Lifeshe/her
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I don’t even know what chennis is trying to say, this seems like a wild misinterpretation-
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lilith2013 she/herSpice of Lifeshe/her
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I think flopz is town??????-
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lilith2013 she/herSpice of Lifeshe/her
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lilith2013 she/herSpice of Lifeshe/her
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okay I mean the Thing I was trying to get Done was to see if anyone would join a flopz wagon for dubious reasons.. I feel like this can be appropriately called baiting?? therefore it seems like your concern with me is both that I baited and that I didn’t bait hard enoughIn post 2744, chennisden wrote:perhaps TMI was the wrong descriptor - what i meant to get across was "this feels very contrived to get a Thing done"-
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lilith2013 she/herSpice of Lifeshe/her
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not sure, I don’t think I’ve done it on LHF like this but I think I’ve voted someone I wasn’t scumreading to see what other people would do?-
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lilith2013 she/herSpice of Lifeshe/her
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okay I can’t multiquote but it’s towards the top of pg 2 of my ISO here: viewtopic.php?f=84&t=83833&user_select% ... &start=200
I was trying to decide if skitter/the worst was a viable scumteam so in 1960 I asked who would be willing to vote for duck, and skitter said yes. Then I voted skitter in 1983 to see if the worst would vote her, because I figured that if they were scum together and their spats were SvS, that they wouldn’t actually want to wagon the other. He did vote her so I felt comfortable saying they weren’t partners.-
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lilith2013 she/herSpice of Lifeshe/her
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