Newbie 2001 | Game Over

[LuckyLuciano]

Spoiler:

UNVOTE: , in case I have inherited a vote.

Typically on D1 I just resort to lynching Karnage, but he's the mod so I guess I have to try new things this game. I'm going to read through the game now and will post my thoughts in a bit.

[LuckyLuciano]

Alright, I've read through the game. Here are the topics that stick out to me,

RVS

Spoiler:

First off, semi-SE hat (I am not an SE, but have played for nearly a decade offsite).

Mafia is a game that pits an uninformed majority against an informed minority. The way town wins is by generating

meaningful

content. Meaningful content is content that, when discussed and analyzed, informs the town. How does RVS, or Random Voting Stage, generate meaningful content? Towns RVS votes are truly random, or votes made for non-reasons (i.e., I know you, I don't like you avi, you smell like a waffle iron). Mafia, on the other hand,

knows

what everyone's alignment is. They are incentivized to help build momentum in wagons that are directed at town, and to stall wagons directed at mafia. In other words, an early wagon that is formed through NAI (Non-Alignment Indicative) RVS votes can generate AI (Alignment-Indicative) reactions. The reactions are not always direct. For example, a mafia member may try to stall a wagon on their teammate not by defending their teammate or attacking the wagon, but instead by starting an alternative wagon, known as a counter-wagon, in order to sap momentum away from the original wagon more indirectly.

Ultimately, reasons to believe players are one alignment or the other in day one, and especially early in day one, are typically weak and based more on

feel

than something that could constitute a concrete case. This is why many experienced players talk a lot about the

tone

of a post. Does a player

feel

like they are trying to move the game forward in a positive way? Do they seem to be contributing nothing? Why? Does mafia benefit from stalling the game right now? These are all valuable questions to ask when determining a player's alignment. Note that we can't ask these questions the moment the game starts. Interactions and reactions necessary for us to ask these questions. RVS, is a time-tested and effective method of generating the sort of content that allows us to meaningfully talk about the game, largely due to the wagons that form as we leave RVS. [/end semi-SE hat]

The Tux-fwog Interaction

Spoiler:

ok then

i might just shitpost day 1 until actual content comes up

ok then

i might just shitpost day 1 until actual content comes up

We can make content. What hidden role game experience do you have?

It is immediately apparent that fwog has no desire to generate

meaningful

content. When pressed by Tux later on he says a few things that indicate to me that maybe he doesn't understand how RVS works. This belief is strengthened by him stating that he will engage in RVS (28) and then proceeds to only engage in the R (29). My understanding is that fwog sees the early game as a place for random jokes and shenanigans until players start to make tonal reads on the jokes and they go from there (see: 40). If this is correct, then it makes sense why he would see this as counterproductive in a game filled with newbie players who not only wouldn't understand what was going on, but would be less likely to be able to make the tonal reads necessary to transition that sort of content to substantiated analysis. If my understanding of fwog's mentality is correct, then I feel good about his slot.

I also like Tux after this interaction. He immediately responds to fwog and tries to generate content. I disagree with Micc's reading on Tux. fwog rather explicitly states that he's willing to engage in RVS, and then proceeds to not engage in RVS (28, 29). I don't see how you can read this interaction from the outside and not understand

why

this is a legitimate reason for Tux to FOS fwog. See again the above linked posts. fwog

is

inconsistent. He says he will do X, and proceeds to do Y. I feel that Micc understands that fwog doesn't really know what RVS entails, but instead of clarifying the situation he is using the disconnect between fwog and Tux to FOS Tux. Tux clarifies his stance in 43. In 93 he explains that he's literally willing to push anything to generate content. I'm not a fan of Micc's play so far, but I think that may be more on a theory level than on a practical level. What I do like is that he is consistent, and that's always a good sign. The top of the post indicates that he's become aware that fwog's behavior can be explained by different site metas. I'm inclined to believe that,

@JacksonVirgo's recent posts seem to imply I'm misreading based on different site metas, is that correct.

is intended to be a question. At the very least this shows an open mind, and I think goes against the idea that he has an agenda.

Onto lesser points of interest,

72o

Spoiler:

I don't like his entrance, completely ignoring the interaction (44, 45). He proceeds to provide non-content (53). I like the stance taken in 80, but I find it hard not to apply his logic to himself as well. In other words, I think that he is giving off the same vibe that he's scumreading Gypyx for. Now this might sound weird, so feel free to ask me to clarify if I don't make sense, but it's because I think 72o's read is weak and misguided that I find reason to believe 72o is town for making the read. Scum tend to be more deliberate and careful in their play. This post reads to me as someone who genuinely believes that posting things just to post them is scum-indicative, yet doesn't realize that up to this point he's done the same thing. That sort of carelessness reads as town in my experience.

Petri

Spoiler:

Something about seeing

Aw man, that love's contagious

and rather accusatory.

next to

Re-read the quote, and changing my question:

BV, nice to see you back I suppose.

Feels odd to me.

Further, I don't see how we get from

Wagoning to threaten a hammer and then glean information seems to be in the Scum's favour

to

VOTE: Fwogcarf

to

I was voting for Fwog to put him at L-2 (Apologies if the formatting is incorrect) to see if there was more to the read and also to get a strong reaction regarding listing yourself as town, which i have got in spades.

How does one, as town and in good faith, conclude that wagoning to generate content is pro-scum, and then proceed to use a wagon to generate content?

I vaguely had other topics in mind and planned to touch a bit more on each player, but this seems to be more interesting so let's investigate here. VOTE: Petri

@Petri,

(1) In post 54 you state that one can often tell the town's chances based on how players react to RVS. I know you also said that it is more difficult to do this on forum mafia, but can you try your best to make a judgement on town's chances so far? Do you think town is in a winning or losing position, and what specific reactions lead you to that conclusion?

(2) What do you believe is 72o's motive for shifting focus from fwog? Do you think that 72o is scum defending scum, or scum defending town?

(3) If putting fwog at L-2 was an effective method of generating reads for you, why are you querying 72o before voting him?

[LuckyLuciano]

Petri, can you respond to this, you seem to have missed it earlier.

Further, I don't see how we get from

In post 82, Petrichorus wrote:
Wagoning to threaten a hammer and then glean information seems to be in the Scum's favour

to

In post 92, Petrichorus wrote:
VOTE: Fwogcarf

to

In post 111, Petrichorus wrote:
I was voting for Fwog to put him at L-2 (Apologies if the formatting is incorrect) to see if there was more to the read and also to get a strong reaction regarding listing yourself as town, which i have got in spades.

How does one, as town and in good faith, conclude that wagoning to generate content is pro-scum, and then proceed to use a wagon to generate content?

[LuckyLuciano]

Hi Luciano, a pleasure. So let's address these one at a time:

1 - Post 54 - I think town has a decent chance being as there seems to be a genuine passion for investigation that I rarely see day one in Meat Space. I have come to this conclusion from the challenges such as Micc's post 30 and 37 (Apologies for not hyperlinking these, can someone throw me the coding?) and also Tuxedo's post 81. Just a couple of examples.

Does this mean you townread Micc and Tuxedo?

2 - Fwog has been forthcoming with content but only since post 85. Prior to that I'm not a fan of the tone of most if not all of their posts as it portends to helping town. As such my initial read was scum defending scum. It was waylaid a little by their response to my vote but post 97 seems to be an interesting way to instigate discussion. 72 hasn't given much other content and has not responded to my query and as such it's harder to pin him down. It's difficult to know if that is by design or through external factors.

If I'm understanding you correctly, you find reason to suspect fwog's early posts. Do you believe that 97 is sufficient to outweigh those concerns? From my perspective fwog's explanation of why a D1 lynch is good for town is NAI. He's providing information, not making reads there.

3 - Regarding the vote for 72, I thought about this before just unvoting. I don't like to swing my vote around and while fwog had already been pressed on his read, I wasn't entirely satisfied with their response, thus the added pressure. At this point I might as well add a vote to 72 as he hasn't responded,

but that will affect my appearance as kowtowing to loud voices,

so I think if by midday tomorrow if he hasn't responded that will be way over 24 hours since last contributions and I'll happily throw that vote out.

Why does this matter?

[LuckyLuciano]

I don't like his entrance, completely ignoring the interaction (44, 45). He proceeds to provide non-content (53). I like the stance taken in 80, but I find it hard not to apply his logic to himself as well. In other words, I think that he is giving off the same vibe that he's scumreading Gypyx for. Now this might sound weird, so feel free to ask me to clarify if I don't make sense, but it's because I think 72o's read is weak and misguided that I find reason to believe 72o is town for making the read. Scum tend to be more deliberate and careful in their play. This post reads to me as someone who genuinely believes that posting things just to post them is scum-indicative, yet doesn't realize that up to this point he's done the same thing. That sort of carelessness reads as town in my experience.

and how would the fact that 72 kinda "defended" Fwog fit in that view that 72 is playing carelessely? (welcome btw)

If you are trying to say that 72o is deliberately pivoting the focus from fwog to you, and that means his play isn't careless, I'm not seeing it. His reasoning for suspecting you equally applies to himself. That's careless play. We can talk all day about whether he was trying to distract town from fwog, but I think that's a highly associative read and those reads work better after we have flips. Prior to knowing either his or fwog's alignment, you're just speculating and stirring up suspicion.

[LuckyLuciano]

Says the vote was for pressure and reaction test. Calls it an immediate success, doesn't explain what it proved if anything. Then hops off the wagon while casting suspicion on another player (already being questions by others) without voting them. He also backed off this Fwog extremely fast, giving up at the first sign of resistance.

This is really good.

[LuckyLuciano]

Regarding the above, I did not call it an immediate success. I said that I got responses regarding self-listing in spades. This was from more than fwog and informed me more on how things are run in here.

Okay, when you say that you received responses regarding self-listing in spades I find it hard to understand what you mean when you say,

To note of 'new angles', my suspicions are still present regarding the same event, but my focus, I think rightfully so is now on 72o.

So you were suspicious of the self-listing, and you received responses regarding self-listing in spades, but your suspicions are still present. So let's talk about the responses you have received and how they have influenced your read on fwog. If they give you reason to further suspect fwog, then why is he not the best place for you to focus? If they give you reason to suspect fwog less, then why are you still suspicious about the self-listing?

[LuckyLuciano]

Tbh, the more I look at Petri, the more I think Tux is spot-on.

All in all,

Petrichorus seems to be following whatever wagons look the easiest

, and generally tries to slip by unnoticed.

When their actions are called out they immediately backtrack

, and look for a new angle. They also have a habit of being extremely nice and friendly (yay for non-toxic games) it's not really alignment idictive but it always tends to make me wary, especially combined with

a player who seems preoccupied with how other players view them.

[LuckyLuciano]

@Petri, I await your response to my other concerns. I would like to add another question with reference to 142. If you changed your conclusion on the value of wagons, help me understand why you don't find building a wagon against 72o desirable in 120.

Btw, post tags are [post=X]X[/post] without the "=X". When you either preview or submit your message the system will add "=linkcode" into the first set of brackets.

[LuckyLuciano]

In post 114, fwogcarf wrote:
we are pogging


what's your take on JV not being here since you have meta with him? He's solidly in my lynch pool right now.

could you explain the benefits of lynching someone inactive rather that someone who has generated interactions and stuff?

While he does that, could you explain the benefits of lynching someone active rather than someone inactive?

[LuckyLuciano]

Fair. At what point do you feel that it is justified to pressure inactives simply to prevent mafia from lurking?

[LuckyLuciano]

I don't think you are understanding what I'm saying. I said that 72o made a

specific

careless play in making a scum read against you that is equally applicable to himself. I'm not saying that for him to be town he has to spend the entire game being careless.

[LuckyLuciano]

Gypyx, can I get you to table 72o for a moment and offer your reads on Petri?

[LuckyLuciano]

The single occurrence was just an initial town ping. His play recently strongly suggest he's town.

What I'm asking is if you could stop focusing on 72o for a few minutes to expand your thoughts on Petri for me.

[LuckyLuciano]

First things first, UNVOTE: Petri. Karnage missed my vote, he's at L-1, this put him at L-2. I don't want an accidental hammer coming down, but I am still in favor of Petri pressure.

[LuckyLuciano]

well, i'm kind of strugguling to gather my thoughts on Petri right now, but i'll try

Disappearing here is sus.

[LuckyLuciano]

Fair. At what point do you feel that it is justified to pressure inactives simply to prevent mafia from lurking?

well, i'd say that once we're halfway through D1 huge lack of activity without asking from replacement / providing good reasons for that lack of activity is a red flag

So what is your take on a slot that was inactive, stated a reason for inactivity, then asked to replace out.

Scumlean? Townlean?

You should never take replacing out as AI.

[LuckyLuciano]

Regarding the last point, are you asking if my appearance to follow louder voices matters? If so, then yes, in that it has been a point of suspicion.

As an insight into me, in Meat Space, myself and several compatriots share effectively the reasoning behind statements and behaviour.

Could you elaborate? I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

[LuckyLuciano]

I did want to see if there would be more content to read before building that wagon. There wasn't and so I did.

I still stick by that if I had immediately switched to wagoning 72 I would have been pulled up on flipping.

As it is I've been pulled up on inconsistency, which may indeed be worse. That's the reasoning behind it. Was it a poor decision? Probably.

This implies you know that 72o is town.

[LuckyLuciano]

Alright, catch-up time!

First off, UNVOTE: for now.

I'm not as sold on my Petrichorus read as I was before.

Still scum-leaning, but they're putting a lot of effort in to answering questions which is nice.

My current point of interest is actually Fwogcarf now.

One of my favourite early game strategies is to look at people in ISO to look for lots of posting without content. Right now, most people have provided information-gathering, answered larger questions, given opinions, that kind of thing. The only people excluded are Fwog, JV, and myself, and JV has decided to replace out. To me, that leaves one good option for digging in to. Fwog, your vote is currently parked on Mask. Do you still think he's a good choice for voting? Why/Why Not? If you were voting elsewhere, who would be a reasonable option in your opinion?

Also, Lucky, still waiting on your thoughts from yesterday morning. You said you needed time to gather your thoughts, and then never came back.

You never gave a read on Petri. You RVS voted him, stated you disliked Gypyx and 72o, then disappeared. Literally nowhere in your ISO do you mention Petri outside of the RVS vote. Have you been following the thread without posting? When did the Petri read develop? When did it degrade?

pedit: Amen Micc. I love that we're on the same page here.

[LuckyLuciano]

Ngl, I've been waiting for somebody to defend Petri. Part of me wondered if in the case that Petri is scum, his partner would be within the inactives. bv310's post feels like a casual redirection from Petri to fwog. Do you agree?

[LuckyLuciano]

I'm still suspicious AF of Petri. Especially because of 212. I want to work on sorting bv310 and JV's replacement, and then I think it's a good time to decide a lynch and move on to D2.

[LuckyLuciano]

I agree on associative tells. If I remember correctly, I've said as much already. I think it's still possible to catch the "feel" of a wagon, something has felt off for me so far.

[LuckyLuciano]

Also,

Also, Lucky, still waiting on your thoughts from yesterday morning. You said you needed time to gather your thoughts, and then never came back.

What thoughts are you looking for? I don't see in my iso where this happened.

[LuckyLuciano]

I don't want players to follow the VC and also vote for pressure, accidentally hammering. I don't think creating a situation where a lolhammer is simultaneously likely and easily explainable is good for town.

[LuckyLuciano]

For example, if Gypyx voted prior to bv unvoting, that would have been a hammer.

[LuckyLuciano]

I think you meant where, not Weber. Anyhoo, I feel that there is value to be had in sorting BV and letting JV's replacement come in and give their thoughts. I don't know why you presume I'm not willing to revote Petri if he comes back and doesn't satisfy my concerns. I'm not sure what you are trying to get at here. Are you trying to make a claim towards BPP, or do you have a problem with me unvoting here?

[LuckyLuciano]

If you don't already know, BPP means Best Practical Play. I literally asked him to clarify if he was having an SE moment.

[LuckyLuciano]

I think you meant where, not Weber. Anyhoo, I feel that there is value to be had in sorting BV and letting JV's replacement come in and give their thoughts. I don't know why you presume I'm not willing to revote Petri if he comes back and doesn't satisfy my concerns. I'm not sure what you are trying to get at here. Are you trying to make a claim towards BPP, or do you have a problem with me unvoting here?

Right, “Weber” was meant to say “where”. What does BPP mean here?

I’m just picking a fight with you over theory as a method of interaction.

You're avi is fitting.

Also, I see it as my duty as an SE to challenge the logic of players who I perceive as applying theory incorrectly. The hope is that at least one of us learns something. In this case I think that applying pressure and being afraid of L-1 wagons are incompatible.

I don't think so. I see my vote as, in spirit, being on Petri here. I'm okay with slowing things down to get a better feel for the inactive slots, but I don't think anybody can read my iso and in good faith say that I'm not in favor of the Petri wagon.

Predit: ahh you caught me then. Props to you

[LuckyLuciano]

Your* I swear I'm not a simple plebeian.

[LuckyLuciano]

@Tux, Petri immediately responded to your concerns from 134 in 135[post]. You have yet to react. What are your thoughts on [post]135?

[LuckyLuciano]

I have updated my own conclusions on Petri, but I will wait until Tux responds to post them.

[LuckyLuciano]

EBWOP,

@Tux, Petri immediately responded to your concerns from 134 in 135. You have yet to react. What are your thoughts on 135?

[LuckyLuciano]

JacksonVirgo requested to be replaced.

[LuckyLuciano]

Even as the mod you are trying to be the D1 lynch, Karnage. It's really not my fault at this point.

[LuckyLuciano]

@fwog, did you ever find what you were looking for in 239?

[LuckyLuciano]

Good morning. I'll be posting after I have my morning coffee and take care of a few things around the house.

[LuckyLuciano]

Alright, first off, Petri. I don't want to lynch here today. Typically in newbie games I grill a newbie D1 on and just feel out their reactions, and the reactions others have to the interaction. I can show examples of this in all 3 of my other newbie games on site, if that helps anyone. Basically the idea is that newbies are the most likely to crack under pressure and scum slip, and scum are likely to jump onto newbie pressure wagons. I thought I finally caught Petri slipping in 212. The slip relies on him knowing that a 'flip' is a player's alignment reveal upon their death. He clarified in his next post,

Can I just check I'm using the term 'flipping' appropriately? I used the word flipping to describe changing my vote. I struggle to see which part of this implies that I know 72o is town. If you could elaborate I would be more than happy to go into more detail.

Essentially, he is yet again able to explain away suspicion on him through a misunderstanding of the jargon and / or basic practices that a lot of forum mafia players take for granted. I do think that explanations that are derived from not being familiar with forum mafia are NAI, and I wish Petri came off as clearly town out of this; however, the fact that he hasn't come out of the exchange as clearly scum - especially when considering the volume of accusations thrown at him not just from me, but other players as well - leads me to believe that he's not scum. I am still worried that he seems highly concerned with how other players perceive him, but he's also been under constant attack the entire game.

There's also the reason I wanted to wait for BV and JV's replacement to contribute. This is a setup where a scum lynch D1 can be a mechanical loss for scum. I wanted to see how the inactives viewed the wagon, because I simply don't see a world where nobody defends Petri if he's scum. I thought I found this in BV's 194, but he says in 276 that he is still scumreading Petri. Then enomis comes in and in 253, is also scum on Petri. Lynching Petri doesn't feel right. I want to look back at the push and see who kinda just prodded it along without contributing to it. This is also why I wanted to wait for Tux to respond to Petri's 135. I haven't looked deeply into Tux's 255, so I don't have a reaction to it yet, but it's on my to-do list for this sitting.

We have 3 and a half days left. It's time to start coalescing towards a lynch. I don't want to end up having a wagon fall apart at the last minute and be forced into a flash wagon on the last day. I'm going to be around doing rereads and building my thoughts for the next few hours, so feel free to ask me questions if you have any.

[LuckyLuciano]

@Petri, I also meant to ask in that last post, I'm looking for more content from you that isn't a defense of yourself. Is 72o still your primary focus? What are your thoughts on the other players and the different pushes made so far, both against you and against others?

Speaking of 72o, where the hell has he been?

@Karnage, 72o has been absent long enough for a prod.

[LuckyLuciano]

On BV, he's my preferred lynch at this point.

His catch-up occurs in 194, and my initial concerns are outlined in 214. I don't immediately vote BV because I'm still waiting on JV's replacement to react to the Petri push. In retrospect, after the BV unvote on Petri I probably should have voted Petri in order to provide more tangible pressure in order to motivate potential scum partners to defend Petri, but it was a weird situation and there's no changing it now. Let's fast forward to BV's most recent post, 276. I'm going to be quoting snippets from 276 and analyzing them with reference to 194 because it is littered with inconsistencies. For sake of space I'm directly quoting things I find suspect, it would help to keep 194 and 276 open in separate tabs to see exactly where these quotes fall in the post and what they are responding to.

---

Spoiler: BV on Petri

2) Unvoting a scum-lean to vote for a different scum-lean is not in any way sketchy. The fact that there wasn't any momentum on my read means I can watch that spot for later.

2) My scum-read on Petri came around post 111. He uses reference to a reputation that we can never check into as a way to try and discount a bad opinion. Even if that's true, it's not an actionable piece of information. To me, that looked suspicious, and was worth keeping my vote parked.

3) Honestly, it kind of didn't, but I was looking at the current in the game and it seemed like no one was interested in continuing there. At that point in the game (page 7 or so), we have plenty of time to look at the opinions after a flip to see if those opinions look better or worse.

There are two things at play here. First, he is saying there is no momentum in the Petri wagon, therefore it's not worth voting there. At the time of his unvote the wagon was at 3/5, with me declaring that I only unvoted at the time to prevent an accidental hammer because of an inaccurate VC. Essentially, the wagon was at 4/5. There could not be any more momentum against Petri without somebody declaring intent to hammer.

Second, BV explicitly stated in 194 that he wasn't as sold on his Petri read, yet in 276 says that his read never degraded. There's a fundamental difference between viewing a wagon as dead and not being as sold that somebody is scum.

---

Spoiler: BV's interaction with fwog

hot take there's a scum in Micc/Luciano

I believe this is correct.

fwog's read here is, to be frank, hot garbage. I think fwog knows this because after enomis points it out in 269 fwog acknowledges that he messed up in 271. The question is, does BV see that this read is bad, or no? Given that he's experienced, I'd lean towards no. I'm not sure how much I pull from how I think BV sees the read, but I do think that there is large scum equity in agreeing with fwog here. Scum like to encourage town to lynch other townies, because then that town player becomes a mislynch target later on. I see town!BV going into more depth explaining why he believes fwog is correct rather than this shit where he continues to try to get fwog to tunnel either Micc or myself,

Your point on the Luc/Micc interaction is valid and worth looking in to. Do you think their suspicion on me is questionable, or is it the immediate agreement that concerns you? Why does lynching me provide better information than one of them?

I think it makes even more sense as scum to want fwog in particular to tunnel town given that he's alright indicated an inclination to tunnel in general (239).

---

Spoiler: BV on his approach to the game

1) Yes. I've been following but lurking because I don't believe posting 20-odd one-liners is needed when there's already others taking that role. I feel comfortable right now looking at interactions and trying to spot inconsistencies.

This, quite indisputably, contradicts the strategy proposed in 194,

One of my favourite early game strategies is to look at people in ISO to look for lots of posting without content. Right now, most people have provided information-gathering, answered larger questions, given opinions, that kind of thing. The only people excluded are Fwog, JV, and myself, and JV has decided to replace out. To me, that leaves one good option for digging in to. Fwog, your vote is currently parked on Mask. Do you still think he's a good choice for voting? Why/Why Not? If you were voting elsewhere, who would be a reasonable option in your opinion?

194 posts in, he admits that most players have had meaningful reactions, and he analyzed

none of them

.

---

Spoiler: Other Stuff

So, it's worth noting that the exact same thing that kicked off Micc's suspicion of me (a short catch-up post that doesn't show enough content) is the same thing that Enomis brought into this as his game catchup. Look at the difference in reaction from micc.

I'm actually okay with this line of questioning, and I think it deserves a response from Micc. I can see the explanation going both ways. I'd rather wait for Micc to respond himself before giving my take on this.

Fwogcarf - A whole pile of easy town-ish content. Takes 60 ISO posts in the thread before he posts anything serious. After being called on that, he flips into actual useful content and detail.
LuckyLuciano - Comes in decent and holds there. His and Micc's alignment on me is very quick, but also doesn't come with a vote on me. Why not?
72offsuit - The opposite of Fwog for me. Comes in early with reads and details, then drops off that entirely when other people start arguing.
Gypyx - Mostly inactive. Not a huge amount to go on here, but what's there is decent.
Petrichorus - I stand by what I said up-post here.
Tuxedo Mask - Falls back on not understanding a lot. Right now I think that's honest confusion, but I've flip-flopped on the honesty of that every few posts I've read through.
Enomis - So far fine, not a lot to pull from.
Micc - Currently a big suspicion for me. The lack of concern at Enomis' entry post suggests that he was leaning town on JV before replacement, but he had no interaction or information posted to pull from to get that.

A few assorted thoughts on this, fwog is townish and Micc is a big suspicion, but BV's vote remains on fwog. Also, if BV truly buys fwog's 'mind-meld' read, why is enomis "fine so far" and not equally suspect for 254?

---

VOTE: BV

[LuckyLuciano]

@Tux, who are your townreads? I get the feeling that you are more inclined to look for scum that to look for town, is this correct? I come to this conclusion because you come across as slightly paranoid.

[LuckyLuciano]

@Gypyx, are you going to spend the entire game popping in, promising a post, and disappearing?

@fwog, can I get an update on how your thoughts have changed since 271.

@enomis, I'm going to need you to expand upon your reads list in 253. Why are Petri and 72 scummy to you?

[LuckyLuciano]

LuckyLuciano

- For the meme value of self-reading.

fwogcarf

- See: 119. I also like him keeping Gypyx honest in 172. It reads to me that he is actually trying to extract value from my interaction with Gypyx, also see: 184. He checks 72o in the same way in 233. I think his later posts show a desire to bring the day into focus (264, 266). This also falls in line with how he described his play would look once he started tryharding (196). I want to see more of this version of fwog and less of the mid-D1 fwog.

Tuxedo Mask

- See: 119. He started off strong trying to generate meaningful content. He's fallen off at certain points of the day in terms of energy levels, but he actively pursues Petri in a way that introduces new information. I think scum!Tux is more likely to sheep my concerns with Petri. I also like his mindset from a town perspective. I see there's an air of paranoia when he's agreed with (265). I think scum are more likely to welcome being agreed with because it gives them a sense of security. More on that at the bottom of this post.

72offsuit

- See: 119. I like the general vibe of 146 through 160. I thought I mentioned this earlier, but I can't find it in my ISO. Both of these are really weak reasons, and I want more from his slot.

enomis

- There's not much from him yet and I want to see more, but I like 254 and 269. On the former post, I don't think scum reads fwog's mind-meld read and then knowingly does exactly what we are being suspected for doing. On the latter post, I see a lot of scum equity in either supporting fwog's read, or attacking fwog for it. Simply pointing out a flaw in fwog's logic without attaching an accusation to it feels like a missed opportunity from scum!enomis.

Micc

- I like that we both saw BV's catchup the same way. I think it's worthwhile to lean town on people who share your perspective D1, as you know you are coming from a town perspective and building cooperation has yielded better results for me than trying to lone wolf as town. This read is in part held in relation to my scum!BV read. I am still interested in hearing about his response to BV WRT enomis.

Petrichorus

- Solidly null. He doesn't come out as scum after being hard pushed all day. Now I want to observe his play when he doesn't have to defend himself. In other words, he's generated a lot of NAI content and I think there's room for AI content if he's given the chance to offer it.

Gypyx

- Early on in my writing of this post he was

a light green

. There's effort to contribute new ideas and understand other players early on in his play, (47, 72, 88, 124, 164). I also like that he doesn't acquiesce when pressured and defends his views, (88, 99, 123, 125, 127, 130, 163, 168, 173, 177, 180). This was weighed against his case against Petri (202) which felt like non-content when compared to his previous posts as well as his general decline in activity as the day progressed. I think overall things weighed in his favor. My problem, however, comes with his recent posts. 283 introduces BV to his solve which feels like he's just sheeping the flavor of the month wagon, which when paired with his reasoning for voting Petri is a bad look. I also feel that when called to contribute 282, instead of offering new thoughts like he did earlier, he repeated my question towards enomis (286). In other words, he came back and made 6 posts, and I don't like any of them. He has a lot going for him earlier in the game, but there's been a drastic falling-off in reasons to believe he's town somewhere after 180, and an uptick in reasons to believe he's scum.

bv310

- See my prior posts. I think bv has given plenty of reasons to believe he is scum.

@fwog / Tux, you both have noted that scum!Lucky could be pocketing town!Tux. Tux initially voted for Petri for minor reasons and essentially started his investigation. When I voted Petri I have my own, independent reasons for voting him. Later on Tux provided more reasons to suspect Petri, which at the time I agreed with. This came after I was already pushing Petri. Do you universally find players agreeing with other players scummy? I ask this in part because of fwog's 'mind-meld' read. If the town never agrees with one another, we will never lynch scum and never win. Basically, I'm asking you to look at the motives for player's agreeing or disagreeing with one another rather than the agreement or disagreement itself. Players do all kinds of things on both sides of the aisle, what's more important than the

what

of a player's actions is the

why

.

I spent a disproportionately large amount of time playing with colors and finding the perfect shades when writing this post...

[LuckyLuciano]

I think writing that post made me realize the problem I've been having with this game. I feel that the energy levels of different slots either started high and diminished over time, started low and picked up later on, or hasn't been there all game, and it's led to this weird game state where people are trying to solve at different times but it doesn't feel like town has all been present trying to progress the game at the same time. Especially with how I now feel about Petri's slot, it just doesn't feel like scum has been put in a position where they have to be proactive. It also explains why the moment scum does make a move (bv), it stands out to clearly.

[LuckyLuciano]

I'm going to respond to that in order,

(1a) Remind me why 72o and Petri can't be scum together, from your perspective.
(1b) Why, from your perspective, is bv scummy?
(2) I said earlier in the post you quoted, I don't see any real content in your reasons to vote Petri. Compared to your earlier posts, there's less independent thought and more sheeping going on here.
(3) A fair explanation, but I'd be lying if I said I don't find it oddly coincidental.

Also, can you give me an update on who you think is town, and why?

[LuckyLuciano]

@Gypyx,

On Petri, if you believe that Petri's friendliness towards players in the game is a deliberate attempt to get on their good side, shouldn't his lack of friendliness towards 72o indicate that he doesn't care about getting on 72o's good side? Why is that?

On BV, now that you have worked through your BV read more clearly, do you still believe that 72o and Petri are the most likely scum, or does BV now take that spot? You also seem to value associative reads, so while I don't like them very much D1, and given that your take for scum seems to be {bv, 72o or Petri}, who between 72o and Petri is more likely to be bv's partner? Feel free to tell me if I'm misunderstanding you and your approach to the game here.

[LuckyLuciano]

It's not that making the same point as someone is a scumtell. It's that your questioning of enomis (if I have to look up how your name is spelled one more time you are going to be called Emo for the rest of the game), doesn't feel organic, at least not compared to your earlier posts. It's more of a ping than a tell. It's the sheer number of pings that came all at the same time that has me worried.

Can you explain where you feel I had opportunities for good scum plays? I don't remember you really talking about your reads on me much earlier. What's the context behind this one.

[LuckyLuciano]

Why do I get the feeling that Gypyx is a droid whose programming is such that when he lacks reason to do anything in particular, he mimics me.

[LuckyLuciano]

I'm torn between liking your responses, and wondering why it feels like you are intentionally copying me,

Spoiler:

@enomis, I'm going to need you to expand upon your reads list in 253. Why are Petri and 72 scummy to you?

Hey guys, skimmed through the threads and make some notes.

Town:
Tuxedo seems town to me.[The part where he talks about quarantine being the reason why he tries to skim the thread very often to try to inspect people]
Fwog can be town for now as i grouped some of his interactions with tuxedo,gypsy and 72 as not scumxscum interaction.

Scummy:
BV,Petri

Abit Scummy:
72

Rest not much read.

Could you explain in more detail your scumReads?

The same question to the same player after I ask you for more content.

---

Spoiler:

LuckyLuciano

- For the meme value of self-reading.

Gypyx

self listing ftw

The same joke.

---

Spoiler:

LuckyLuciano

fwogcarf

Tuxedo Mask

tuxedo

Lucky

fwog

The same color pattern, and the same town reads.

[LuckyLuciano]

Well, it's my way to get back into the game, it might be a bit artificial, but that's just a side effect

What do you mean when you call your own play artificial?

[LuckyLuciano]

I feel myself

wanting

you to be scum right now, so I'm going to take a step back and let other people weigh in before I end up confbias tunneling you.

[LuckyLuciano]

Easy answers first, locktown is a strong town read. Some people might use it slightly differently but I put it right beneath mechanically town (innocent child, or someone being un-cc'd while claiming a role that must exist in the setup).

Chainsaw, I'm not as familiar with. I'm pretty sure he means hammer, perhaps with a more aggressive connotation.

I'm sure these aren't too far off from what he meant and should allow you to answer his questions.

[LuckyLuciano]

That makes more sense. Rereading the context I somehow thought 72o was referring to L-1, not a 1-vote wagon.

[LuckyLuciano]

I want to see more of this version of fwog and less of the mid-D1 fwog.

Seconded. That said, Do you find that the change in behaviour itself is AI or not?

I don't think that the switch itself is AI, but I think that it's consistent with how I perceive town!fwog would play, if that makes sense. In other words, while I think him not flipping the switch would be worrisome, my townreading of it lies on assumptions that I made in 119. I do feel comfortable with my understanding of fwog as a player, so I'm still okay holding those assumptions as true.

I still need to read the rest of your post more thoroughly.

[LuckyLuciano]

72 is still my primary focus, but we'll see if he comes back or gets replaced. If he gets replaced, then maybe this will change. I'm happy while this is happening to move to BV as I concur with much of the discussion. I find his read on 72 specifically of note as a point which I don't think has been brought up yet.

Then bring it up. What would you like to say about it?

[LuckyLuciano]

IRL mafia is an entirely different game than forum mafia. I think Petri's lack of familiarity with FM customs illustrates on its own why he should be considered a newbie here. I have considered that he's playing us like a fiddle in that he's purposefully giving NAI answers by citing inexperience with FM, but I think that's really tinfoil hatty. If that is actually true, then I just give props to Petri at endgame and accept that it's a strategy he can never use again.

As for the gamestate at L-1, I think it was going to feel weird independent of Petri's alignment, because of the VC error. I'm more concerned with the fact that Petri seems universally pushed in a setup where a mafia lynch D1 can easily lead to an unwinnable game state for mafia.

[LuckyLuciano]

I'm going to need you to post that in a way that my color blindness can read.

[LuckyLuciano]

So basically what you are saying is that I am your strongest scum read, so you were going to build a case against somebody who is not your strongest scum read, so that after they flipped, you could use that flip to push your strongest scum read, independent of whether that flip is red or green? What kind of backwoods hickory stick kinda gameplan is that?

[LuckyLuciano]

I might be misunderstanding then. When you said "at this point", is "this point" 271.

Either way, help me understand how that being your plan

at any point

is a good strategy. I'm not seeing why you didn't hard push me if you were confident that I am scum. I'm also concerned with how you seem unaware at how badly you are looking to confbias a read when your plan is to build a case against somebody else with the intent of using their flip, no matter what it is, to push me in the following day phase.

[LuckyLuciano]

Could you link me to one of your offsite games where you are town and propose a 5-day lynch chain, or something similar to what you did in 266?

[LuckyLuciano]

I like mindmelding particularitly in this setup because mafia

Could you rephrase that?

[LuckyLuciano]

2. I'd rather wait for Luciano, Enomis, and Gypyx to come back. Maybe one of them can hammer if they aren't voting BV already.

2 of us are on the wagon. You are so disconnected from the game and so deep in your confbias tunnel it's insane.

[LuckyLuciano]

I want to wait for more people to speak their mind about BV

Who, in particular?

[LuckyLuciano]

Ngl, BV's recent posts read as scum who knows they are caught. I don't see town motive for explicitly not wanting to help the town. I have an additional thought on this, but it loses its value if I voice it now. I'll explain it D2.

[LuckyLuciano]

fwog, I hate that vote btw. why are you ignoring L-1 bv310 right now?

Do you want me to hammer him?

NAGL.

[LuckyLuciano]

Actually, scratch that post. I assumed that fwog was willing to hammer if Micc said yes, but the interaction in 351 and 353 seems to disprove that.

[LuckyLuciano]

If Luciano is scum, why would you want to lynch BV first?

The million dollar question.

[LuckyLuciano]

#80 feels awkward, them stating it's not an RVS specfically.

That's pretty common here, in my experience. I do it whenever I start a game from the beginning and I'm ready to move out of the RVS stage.

[LuckyLuciano]

I feel myself

wanting

you to be scum right now, so I'm going to take a step back and let other people weigh in before I end up confbias tunneling you.

This part I don't really understand. It feels kind of awkward and out of line with how they've been playing the rest of the day.

I mean, you've seen me confbias tunnel before. I don't understand how you don't understand that this is something I would do if I let myself get carried away.

[LuckyLuciano]

That's unequivocally an inaccurate interpretation of what I said, and the point of saying it.

[LuckyLuciano]

Quite literally what I said is "I did this before, and it was bad (this part isn't explicit but Tux knows it to be true), so I'm deliberately avoiding it now."

[LuckyLuciano]

So you can take the facts, and use them to form a read. Or you can make a read, and then warp the facts to fit the read. Which one sounds like my approach to Petri, and which one seems likelier to be the case if I tunneled Gypyx?

And yeah, I'm down with a hammer.

[LuckyLuciano]

I'll probably not be looking too much at this game today. I need to finish catching up elsewhere - I made a commitment to replace into a deep game.

[LuckyLuciano]

For what it's worth, I thought this was a mason soft, which built into my townread on fwog despite some of his questionable moves, and is really the reason why he topped my reads list for town:

Spoiler:

im gonna make a public note that i will be looking for distancing/socializing between a certain two people

going to help readmaking imo

im gonna make a public note that i will be looking for distancing/socializing between a certain two people

going to help readmaking imo

Have you played with these two people? :thonk:

Well i meant just two people in general

[LuckyLuciano]

Lol... It's fun playing on a site where people don't know me.

[LuckyLuciano]

VOTE: Gypyx. Just gonna leave this here. Back to catching up elsewhere. I promise to give this game proper time of day tomorrow morning at the latest.

[LuckyLuciano]

My old site was debate.org.

I played under Mestari and Lucky_Luciano primarily.

The comment was made referencing the night kill analysis that's gone on so far. Elaborating beyond that is just going to be seen as WIFOM unless you want to go through all of my past scum games to confirm what I say, and if you are willing to do that, then you can figure out why I think this situation is funny without me telling you.

[LuckyLuciano]

I'm going to reread the game more in depth before I start heavily engaging in this day phase. Just going off how I felt about players late yesterday, the next logical step is either Petri or Gypyx. Gypyx seemed to pretty heavily townread me towards the end of D1, and now he's starting D2 off supposing that I killed fwog. The disconnect doesn't feel natural, and fits in with your reasoning in 443.

[LuckyLuciano]

You really have to start reading between the lines.

pedit: It's either I talk to you or I remind myself how much I regret the other commitment I made.

[LuckyLuciano]

That last part wasn't meant to come across negatively. It's more so that I'm drained from elsewhere and talking to you here is an excuse for a break from that commitment.

[LuckyLuciano]

I know at 289 I was null on Petri. I need to reread his posts after that point, as I was focused on getting fwog back on the right track for the latter part of the day. Alright, I need to stop wasting time and get back to work. I'll be back here tomorrow morning at the latest.

[LuckyLuciano]

I'm back. Sorry I didn't catch-up yesterday morning as I promised. I decided I needed to take a personal day away from mafia, all these games got too draining. I'm going to make a fresh pot of coffee and I'll be back.

[LuckyLuciano]

That said, I think it's interesting that Lucky's reasoning for fwog being strongest town-read was so quick after reveal. Could be NAI.

Elaborate, please.

[LuckyLuciano]

3. Your insistence on scum-scum associations is scummy in itself. We have a flip of BV who had fk all interactions with anyone, so no idea why you are so obsessed with scum partner analysis - it doesnt feel like you are genuinely hunting scum, but rather as thought you are trying to widen your lynch pool as much as possible.

I read Petri as considering how different possible night kills cast suspicion on different players. I'm not seeing the scum-scum associative analysis that you are. I think it's rather odd, however, for Petri to be considering all these hypotheticals immediately after wanting to "avoid a WIFOM discussion". It feels like content for the sake of content.

[LuckyLuciano]

Petri’s voting pattern, voting for the clear fwog, me (yes, only I know I’m town, but the point still remains), and for

bv, also clear-town

.

You are saying that BV is clear-town, yet,

Since y'all seem settled on me for the day's lynch, I'd encourage those of you on the wagon to spend a few minutes looking at the other people involved and asking what your read is going to be when I flip Town.

I'm not making any gesture, I'm tired and trying to get people to do some actual thinking about their own thoughts and influences instead of hand-waving away D1 as it being all my fault, which I've seen many times. I don't see any of the 4 currently on my wagon changing that opinion with 2 days left.

Ye. This doesnt feel like its coming from town.
Town convinced they are going to be lynched would push a case against their strongest scumread as a dying FoS to guide rest of town. Bv is just basically saying, figure it out yourselves.

Im claimimg intent to hammer.

Spoiler: BV Post 407

Seriously? You have 14 pages of game (and several longer posts from me specifically) to look at and ask questions about, and the only thing you want to bring out of me is an explanation of my RVS vote? It was a vote on to someone with zero votes on them to start the game off. I didn't see anything worth jumping on at that point.

It is not just that post of RVS. It is this RVS accompanied with this post:

Spoiler: BV post 194

Alright, catch-up time!

First off, UNVOTE: for now. I'm not as sold on my Petrichorus read as I was before. Still scum-leaning, but they're putting a lot of effort in to answering questions which is nice.

My current point of interest is actually Fwogcarf now.

One of my favourite early game strategies is to look at people in ISO to look for lots of posting without content. Right now, most people have provided information-gathering, answered larger questions, given opinions, that kind of thing. The only people excluded are Fwog, JV, and myself, and JV has decided to replace out. To me, that leaves one good option for digging in to. Fwog, your vote is currently parked on Mask. Do you still think he's a good choice for voting? Why/Why Not? If you were voting elsewhere, who would be a reasonable option in your opinion?

Also, Lucky, still waiting on your thoughts from yesterday morning. You said you needed time to gather your thoughts, and then never came back.

Here you said you had a scum read before because you are scum reading them. But your vote was because of a RVS.

Here's what I think happened.
1) You RVSed.
2) Realised that there is a wagon building, unvoted and needed a reason to unvote.
3) So you came up with a reason saying you don't scum read petri anymore. (But you actually voted petri because of RVS, not scum-reading)

This is the reason I wanted to ask about your First post vote to see whether it was an RVS or not.
---------------
And it doesn't help that you only had a few post between the 17 pages of content and when I felt like clarifying this situation, you just went Missing In Action.
So I just voted with what I thought without much ways to get a response from you.

And to be frank, I kind of agreed with Micc's post on the inactive portion in LYLO.

Idk, I think he flips scum like 35% of the time here. Probs 7 on a scale of 1-10 in scumminess.

@ Petri: because bv's posts pinged me as scummy, and I think micc's case against bv had the most rationale.

Gyp pinged me as scummy early on, then his behaviour felt liked it marginally improved, bringing him back to null. What;s so hard to understand?

[LuckyLuciano]

That said, I think it's interesting that Lucky's reasoning for fwog being strongest town-read was so quick after reveal. Could be NAI.

Elaborate, please.

Nevermind, you already did.

To clarify. I am not referencing your conclusion, just the fact that I don't think it's necessarily towny for Lucky to post that specific mason post. Useful content yes, but not necessarily towny. Other than that I agree with you. Right off to work. See you all in 10 hours.

Ciao

[LuckyLuciano]

VOTE: Petri

@72offsuit: What are your thougts with respect to the first paragraph of Petrichorus's 458 being a newbie town-slip?

Spoiler:

Definitely not who I expected tonight. I expected a general townread to go. Tux at the top of that list. Still, WIFOM when trying to figure out what the mafia are thinking. On the earlier note of Masonry, I hadn't considered that. This isn't a question to catch someone out, but a genuine newb question. Does a mafia special action happen alongside a kill or at a different time. I.e. if there was a rolecop or blocker does their action happen seperately chronologically or alongside? I'm assuming that the latter is the case, otherwise mafia rolecop would be OP.

If Petri is of the mindset that scum can plant fake tells, then scum!Petri could have planted that as a fake tell.

[LuckyLuciano]

Locked out of my house and battery dyibg will post ltr tmrw

This reads as if you used voice-to-text and your phone literally died as you were talking.

[LuckyLuciano]

I'm going to reread the game more in depth before I start heavily engaging in this day phase. Just going off how I felt about players late yesterday, the next logical step is either Petri or Gypyx. Gypyx seemed to pretty heavily townread me towards the end of D1, and now he's starting D2 off supposing that I killed fwog. The disconnect doesn't feel natural, and fits in with your reasoning in 443.

well first of all, yes i'm supposing that you

MIGHT

have killed fwog, but this is done for the sake of not letting any possilities unchecked, plus if i really was maf and were trying to frame you, would I really try to cast suspision on you by talking to the one person who looks pretty convinced this kill was done for FoS?

Are you going to consider

other

possibilities, or only the one that throws shade at me?

[LuckyLuciano]

Yeah, i don't think that point really applies, plus that vagon was kinda weird,

i don't think that scum would've needed to stay off this one

uhhh...? I don't know why but the bolded part seems to me like a scum slip.

My argument was about scum being on the wagon, not scum being off the wagon.
That one line seems like you know that even though scum if off the wagon, scum didn't have to stay off the wagon as it was weird.

^

[LuckyLuciano]

I'm not agreeing with enomis' change in perspective on Gypyx. Gypyx's post reads as if he's scum and discussed how the votes should be distributed in the mafia PT.

[LuckyLuciano]

I mostly skimmed them, if I'm being honest. I think that the mafia picks their kills for a reason, not by random. Therefore I believe that mafia either killed fwog because they saw him as a threat (power role, accurate reads), or because they intended to execute some sort of plan following his flip. Gypyx immediately pushed a NK-inspired agenda as soon as the day began, which also shows a sudden shift in read on me between the end of D1 and the beginning of D2. This all fits into the second part of what I just said, it looks like he is executing a plan that was made possible by killing fwog.

What do you think about him possibly scum slipping when talking about the mafia not needing to stay off of yesterday's wagon?

[LuckyLuciano]

I think slips are more common when the message is rushed. It means they didn't have time to catch it before posting.

I don't know how many scum were on the wagon. I'm not sure if it's worth digging into. The lynch was pretty universally supported. Scum could have positioned themselves anywhere, especially after BV checked back in to let us know he was mentally checked out.

[LuckyLuciano]

What in the actual fuck? Could you help me understand how you arrived at the point you're at now?

[LuckyLuciano]

Reading Enomis?
They vote Micc, asking for them to explain their Petri vote/unvote. Micc had already done so pretty clearly in the game already. Does it again, sighting their original explanation. Enomis unvotes.

Their Gyp vote/unvote also seems based in miscommunication of Enomis part.

Combine that with a high number of posts of them saying they need to reread, or have read closely, creates a pattern of not really paying attention. And going through their ISO I see them asking a lot of questions, but don't have much of a understanding where they stand.

This sounds a lot more like he's trying to solve the game and his views change naturally, rather than him rereading the game with an agenda to paint certain players scummy.

[LuckyLuciano]

Also @Lucky, can you explain your scum read of Petri now?

I wouldn't call it a scum read. Petri has done a lot of NAI stuff and not a lot of AI stuff. It's got me wary, that's all.

[LuckyLuciano]

quote="In post 532, 72offsuit"]LL:
1. Feels like LL is buddying/pocketing me in 119.
I think a townie with little information here would more likely be suspicious of this, and see it as scummy, and call it bogus or fake reasoning,
rather than just describe it as "weak and misguided".

The carelessness description doesnt really fit my post, which makes me feel like its spin from LL, to fit a narrative.
That agenda being, that LL has read a past games of mine to try to mimick townreads that I've done in previous games.
See me in Newbie 1987: viewtopic.php?p=11609046&user_select%5B ... #p11609046
I call Maduisha reckless for lolhammering (I was town and Mad was town)[/quote]

What leads you to believe that I have read your past games? I have made the argument in every single game I have played on site that a player being wrong doesn't make them scum. What matters more is

why

a player makes the reads that they do. I don't think that it's common for scum to think of fake reasons to push someone and not think about how that reasoning also applies to them. Scum is trying to look town, so they don't push players for things that they are doing themselves.

179 feels like LL manipulating Gypyx onto Petri, while also further buddying.

How? I asked a nonleading question to get a genuine response. I think that Gypyx is pushing town, and I'm trying to sort Petri at that point in the game. The logical thing to do is to redirect Gypyx from my town read to a higher value slot.

2. Also in 119, it feels like LL is directing Petri to scumread me. [...] Why doesn't LL offer the options of town defending a player they also read as town, as an option?

Can you be any more inconsistent with your logic? Am I buddying you, or am I trying to get you lynched? I was trying to understand how Petri is thinking when I made 119. At that point in the same I already think that fwog is mason, so I'm interested in (2) if Petri calls your play WRT fwog SvS or SvT, given that

he already claims to believe you are scum at that point.

With (3) I see an inconsistency in Petri's play and I want to understand where that inconsistency comes from. Why would I ask Petri if he thinks the interaction is TvT, when my goal is to understand Petri's pre-existing views, and Petri has

already stated that he believes you are scum

. "Hey Petri, do you believe that your scumread's interaction with Fwog is TvT?"

This continues in LL's post 279:
Petri, I also meant to ask in that last post, I'm looking for more content from you that isn't a defense of yourself. Is 72o still your primary focus?

I've made the point at least once already that Petri's defense of himself, given that it mostly relied on his unfamiliarity with FM customs and terminology, is NAI. I'm trying to make him offer reads so that I can get a better read on him. At the last point of him offering analysis, his focus was on you. Meaningful content was produced between 119 and 279. I wanted to see how Petri's view of the game evolved over time.

3. Post 141 - "Tbh, the more I look at Petri, the more I think Tux is spot-on"
Buddying TM, by jumping on his logic, feels like a pockety sort of post, like a pat-on-the-back, "spot-on", 'nice job' sort of post.

Does town in your world never agree with other players in the game? The game is 7v2, most players in the game are town. At some point you are going to have to agree with other players. Trying to win the game on your own is going to make you overly paranoid of everything that happens.

4. LL is in the butterzone, 3rd on the on the bv wagon. I don;t see the bv wagon being all town. I think LL is the scummiest on that wagon.

It's amazing how you are so good at taking things out of context. I attacked BV's catchup post practically simultaneously with Micc. At the time that BV popped back in and started looking scummy as hell

I was in the middle of sorting Petri

. I made an effort to sort BV long before anyone other that Micc was even looking at him. Would you rather have seen me drop my effort to sort Petri and immediately vote BV, or wait until everyone else in the game scumread BV to throw a casual vote on at the end of the wagon? Or would you rather me not vote the anti-town option? Honestly, no matter where my vote falls on that wagon you are going to call it the "butterzone" because you started ISOing me under the assumption that I am scum and now everything in my ISO is going to look scummy to you. Keep shit in context.

5. Weak point, but still holds nonetheless: Whoever said dead men tell no tales is wrong. Fwog's scumread of LL is genuine because we know fwog is town.

That doesn't make fwog correct. I posted 2 minutes after Micc. I already had an argument typed out at that point.

I could not have been intentionally mirroring Micc because I already was making the argument when Micc posted and there wasn't enough time after Micc's post for me to come up with my post.

Further, look even more at the time stamps. I was doing a stream of consciousness catch up. Look at my posts and how the posts I quote progress, and line them up with when I end up talking about BV's post.

I was always going to talk about BV's post at the moment that I did because it was the next part of the thread during my stream of consciousness catchup.

6. LL's self-meta'ing in posts 442, 447 are scummy. Why bring something up that isn;t actionable? It's just useless filler.
I've had several self-meta'ing players in my past games flip as scum. Really don;t like these posts.

I have self-meta'd in every single game I have played on this site.

7. Post 497: LL answering a question directed at me. This doesn't feel like town behaviour.

28 hours later you hadn't answered the question. I want to move the game forward. I think the idea that Petri townslipped is wrong. Of course I'm going to address it.

8. LL's readslist feels more like a 'don;t-rock-the-boat', continue on this gamestate pathway sort of a readslist.
Not really anything there that pings me as a good pickup (as opposed to eg: TM's briefer readslist)

Just lol. I was literally the person that halted the wagon on Petri. You're talk that I manipulated Petri against you implies that you believe that Petri is town. Scum stopped a wagon against town certainly fits into the "don't-rock-the-boat" narrative. You are such a good player.

[LuckyLuciano]

I disagree with your read of LL here. The momentum of day one feels like it was heading towards a bv lynch quite easily.
In the end, we had 6 players happy to vote for bv (I stated intent to hammer but TM hammered instead)
I feel like LL wouldn;t need to pursue Petri, with bv's head on the chopping block.

I literally unvoted Petri at L-1 to prevent him from being accidentally hammered, and stated that I still wanted to pursue the Petri wagon. This was

before

any momentum generated towards a BV lynch.

I am the player that sapped momentum from the Petri wagon, on multiple occasions.

Your ISO is so detached from the

actual

state of the game that contextualizes what I've done throughout the game, and why I've done it.

[LuckyLuciano]

@Micc on Petri slip. I understand where you are coming from, but I disagree.

[LuckyLuciano]

The game state feels like scum would have been positioning themselves for a petrichorus mislynch day 1 and the hopped onto bv310 when I presented a strong case for that. Nightkill comes in off wagon, and it would make sense for scum to be pushing at the back half of the Day 1 wagon for today’s lynch. That includes you, but it also kinda includes LL, so I’m going to spend some time reconsidering that. What would you say is the strongest piece of evidence in support of LL vote.

Also maintenance guy showed up so I slightly less real time response right now

Do you think that my play D1 shows that I was positioning towards a Petrichorus mislynch, given that I both unvoted at L-1 when momentum was pushing towards Petri, and the mod screwed up the votecount making an accidental hammer incredibly easy, and I also made a case for giving Petrichorus more time to make reads when he's in a position to not be defending himself constantly?

[LuckyLuciano]

LL specifies he doesn't want to lynch Petri TODAY, leaving the Petri lynch as an option for himself today.

Why do you lynch anyone D1? Because they have a less than random chance of being town, or it does not appear that they will ever put themselves in a position to have a less than random chance of being town. Petri still had the opportunity to put himself in that position.

He puts him as a null-read, which I don;t think marries up with how he has been referring to Petri throughout the game.

How the fuck are you so masterful at ignoring all context? Throughout the game I have said that my push on Petri was motivated by him being a newbie and the fact that newbies are more likely to crack under pressure. It had nothing to do with him being scum, it was about giving him a platform to slip as scum. I have also said, at the conclusion of the push, that answers which rely on an unfamiliarity with the customs and language of forum mafia are answers which find their justification outside of the game itself, and are therefore not indicative of alignment inside the game.

He accuses Petri of content for the sake of content. I would say that newbie players, such as PEtri, are more likely to analyse night kills, than more experienced players.
So I don;t think night-kill spec from Petri is AI.

THAT'S THE FUCKING POINT YOU NUBBERDOODLE. A spam of NAI content

is

content for the sake of content.

And then he takes the opportunity to jump in and paint PEtri as scum in 497, answering a question that wasn;t even directed at him.

I would be inclined to say that if LL is scum then Petri is town.

I've already answered this.

[LuckyLuciano]

yuck. sorry about the formatting. Lines didn't work, and last question is @72offsuit.

Also want to ask how high on the townness scale is 1.5? Don't want to lynch today, would never lynch today, would never lynch this game?

Why do you ask this?

Taking your townness scale and translating it into my townness scale helps give me perspective of your reads.

I with I had given fwog more space to talk about the problems he had with my interactions with LL. The discussion about wagons and pressure definately had some awkwardness to it that I'm willing to shrug off as me wearing my SE hat. But fwog also took interest in LL mindmelting with me over bv310 read, and never really got around to expanding on that. This would be a key point in the transition in scum strategy from Petrichorus lynch day 1 to bv310 that I was feeling. fwog also had a lynch order of bv310 into LL before just switching to LL, so there's an argument to be made for him eating the nightkill for strong reads. I don't know that I buy strong buddying to be a scum tell, but there's enough other stuff here that I'm willing to see where this goes.

VOTE: LuckyLuciano

Would it help you if I posted every N1 kill I have ever made as mafia, with the reasons the kills were made, where available? I don't want to dig through a decade of old meta on a site that's been abandoned and barely functions anymore, but at this point I feel like I might have to. The short of it is, when I was new to mafia I differed to other members of the mafia. When I got my bearings and became more respected on my old site, I began vetoing other NK suggestions and started making my own decisions. I'm not going to explain my decision making process WRT N1 kills, because it will invariably be misconstrued as scummy via self-metaing, but if you are willing to spend the time diving through my meta I will spend the time collecting the relevant data for you.

[LuckyLuciano]

At work and will reply when I'm done. Leaving this here for now: VOTE: 72offsuit

I make 31 posts, and Patri's response is to vote for me, without commenting on any of them.
Ye, I'd say Petri is derp-town. I don;t think scum does this. This is ACTUALLY reckless town.

Scum LL, town Petri.

Do you ever reread what you post and feel embarrassed? Petri literally said he was at work and would respond later and you read this as lazy and derp-town.

[LuckyLuciano]

My current solve would be LL and enomis. Both I see as scummy, and both town read each other.

Every scummate I have ever had is rolling in their grave laughing at you for saying this.

[LuckyLuciano]

My current solve would be LL and enomis. Both I see as scummy, and both town read each other.

LL got very upset when I voted Enomis.

Because you voted on someone clearly showing active scumhunting and a genuine town mindset. The vote couldn't have been worse unless you self-voted.

[LuckyLuciano]

So what questions do you have for me?

[LuckyLuciano]

@Micc, I need to reread the 72o slot to determine if this push comes from town, comes from mafia, or both. That's where my head is at right now, because I just had to spend time addressing a bogus case made by taking my posts out of context. I still think Gypyx is probably mafia. I haven't been given an explanation for why town!Gypyx moves from hard townreading me D1 to immediately shading me D2 based on the nightkill. It still makes perfect sense for scum!Gypyx to do this, because he would have discussed it beforehand in the mafia PT. In other words, the immediacy with which he both abandoned his townread on me and tried to focus discussion on me without actually committing himself to a push on me is alarming.

@Tuxedo, you are right, I've been letting myself get frustrated with mafia lately far more than I should. I apologize. I am interested though, which moves do you believe I have made that I shouldn't have? I'd like to know what moves you are talking about, if you have addressed them before, and if not, why wait until now to bring it up?

[LuckyLuciano]

What's your interpretation of Gypyx's play WRT to gamestate D1? For reference, here is mine,

Gypyx

- Early on in my writing of this post he was

a light green

. There's effort to contribute new ideas and understand other players early on in his play, (47, 72, 88, 124, 164). I also like that he doesn't acquiesce when pressured and defends his views, (88, 99, 123, 125, 127, 130, 163, 168, 173, 177, 180). This was weighed against his case against Petri (202) which felt like non-content when compared to his previous posts as well as his general decline in activity as the day progressed. I think overall things weighed in his favor. My problem, however, comes with his recent posts. 283 introduces BV to his solve which feels like he's just sheeping the flavor of the month wagon, which when paired with his reasoning for voting Petri is a bad look. I also feel that when called to contribute 282, instead of offering new thoughts like he did earlier, he repeated my question towards enomis (286). In other words, he came back and made 6 posts, and I don't like any of them. He has a lot going for him earlier in the game, but there's been a drastic falling-off in reasons to believe he's town somewhere after 180, and an uptick in reasons to believe he's scum.

[LuckyLuciano]

I don't know why that posted like that.

@Tuxedo, when you referenced making moves that I shouldn't, were you talking only about areas where you don't like how I play the game as a player? I was under the interpretation that you were talking about moves that I [strategically] shouldn't. Anyway, I don't want to keep you from feeling comfortable playing the game, so we can change topics.

Now that you have read my response to 72o, what are your reads on the interaction?

pedit: Will do.

[LuckyLuciano]

Actually, rereading eno's iso I find myself confbiasing town motives for his posts. I'm not comfortable discussing the reason I'm willing to confbias town motives, and I'd rather we change our focus towards someone who actually has a chance of being scum.

[LuckyLuciano]

@Micc, I would like that when you have more time. My reading of Gypyx's votes D1 is that he literally just sheeped the two major wagons.

[LuckyLuciano]

Day 1 VCA

Spoiler: 1

fwogcarf

- 1 - JacksonVirgo,
Amercelo - 0 -
72offsuit - 0 -
Gypyx - 0 -
Petrichorus - 0 -
Tuxedo Mask - 0 -
JacksonVirgo - 2 - Micc, Petrichorus,
Micc - 1 - Tuxedo Mask,

bv310

- 0 -

Not voting -

fwogcarf

, Amercelo, 72offsuit, Gypyx,

bv310

Spoiler: 2

fwogcarf

- 2 - JacksonVirgo, Tuxedo Mask,
Amercelo - 1 - 72offsuit,
72offsuit - 1 - Gypyx,
Gypyx - 0 -
Petrichorus - 1 -

bv310

Tuxedo Mask - 2 -

fwogcarf

, Micc,
JacksonVirgo - 1 - Petrichorus,
Micc - 0 -

bv310

- 0 -

Not voting - Amercelo,

Spoiler: 3

fwogcarf

- 3 - JacksonVirgo, Tuxedo Mask, Petrichorus,
Amercelo - 0 -
72offsuit - 1 - Gypyx,
Gypyx - 1 - 72offsuit,
Petrichorus - 1 -

bv310

Tuxedo Mask - 2 -

fwogcarf

, Micc,
JacksonVirgo - 0 -
Micc - 0 -

bv310

- 0 -

Not voting - Amercelo,

Spoiler: 4

fwogcarf

- 1 - JacksonVirgo,
Amercelo - 0 -
72offsuit - 1 - Gypyx,
Gypyx - 1 - 72offsuit,
Petrichorus - 2 -

bv310

, Tuxedo Mask,
Tuxedo Mask - 2 -

fwogcarf

, Micc,
JacksonVirgo - 0 -
Micc - 0 -

bv310

- 0 -

Not voting - Amercelo, Petrichorus,

Spoiler: 5

fwogcarf

- 1 - JacksonVirgo,
Lucky - 0 -
72offsuit - 2 - Gypyx, Petrichorus,
Gypyx - 1 - 72offsuit,
Petrichorus - 4 -

bv310

, Tuxedo Mask, Lucky, Micc,
Tuxedo Mask - 1 -

fwogcarf

,
JacksonVirgo - 0 -
Micc - 0 -

bv310

- 0 -

Not voting -

Note: Lucky Replaces Amercelo

Spoiler: 6

fwogcarf

- 2 - JacksonVirgo,

bv310

,
Lucky - 0 -
72offsuit - 1 - Petrichorus,
Gypyx - 1 - 72offsuit,
Petrichorus - 4 - Tuxedo Mask, Lucky, Micc, Gypyx,
Tuxedo Mask - 0 -
JacksonVirgo - 0 -
Micc - 0 -

bv310

- 0 -

Not voting -

fwogcarf

,

Spoiler: 7

fwogcarf

- 1 -

bv310

,
Lucky - 0 -
72offsuit - 1 - Petrichorus,
Gypyx - 1 - 72offsuit,
Petrichorus - 2 - Tuxedo Mask, Gypyx,
Tuxedo Mask - 0 -
enomis - 0 -
Micc - 0 -

bv310

- 2 - Micc, enomis,

Not voting -

fwogcarf

, Lucky,

Note: The beginning of this spoiler is where I realize that the official VC is wrong and unvote.
Note 2: enomis replaces JacksonVirgo.

Spoiler: 8

fwogcarf

- 1 -

bv310

,
Lucky - 1 -

fwogcarf

,
72offsuit - 0 -
Gypyx - 1 - 72offsuit,
Petrichorus - 1 - Gypyx,
Tuxedo Mask - 0 -
enomis - 0 -
Micc - 0 -

bv310

- 5 - Micc, enomis, Lucky, Petrichorus, Tuxedo Mask, <--- Hammer

Not voting -

[LuckyLuciano]

Following the votes doesn't do Gypyx and favors.

Gypyx had an early vote on 72o and then put Petri at L-1. He never actually voted BV, but he pushed the BV wagon from the outskirts. Knowing that Gypyx never voted BV pings me back to 484. He claims that scum didn't need to stay off the wagon, yet he both supported the wagon and never jumped on it.

[LuckyLuciano]

Also of note, despite Petri not being a fan of throwing his vote around early, once his wagon built up he suddenly felt motivated to vote 72o.

[LuckyLuciano]

I don't think Gypyx and Petri can be SvS though, given that Gypyx put Petri at L-1 at a point in time where the wagon still had momentum. Given that I think Gypyx is scum, Petri is probably town.

[LuckyLuciano]

I also think that Petri and Micc can't be SvS, pretty much for the same reason. So either scum!Petri and town!Micc and town!Gypyx, or scum!Gypyx and town!Petri and either!Micc. The evidence overwhelmingly points to scum!Gypyx, imo. My next step is to look back at the interactions contextualizing the movement of votes. I have to go for a bit, but I'll do that when I'm back.

[LuckyLuciano]

^ EBWOP: With posts linked:

@gyp:

Re: post 301 - a key part of your townread of LL seems to be your feelings in 301:

"for instance, taking off your vote on petri, assuming that you're scum and Petri isn't your scumbuddy
(which would be quite weird, considering what you did in post 179) you had the opportunity to just keep your vote on him,
and surely, this would've been pretty likely to cause an unintentional hammer, while not making you that suspcious,
but you chose to take it off, which i find to be quite illogical to do as maf
(like, even a scum wanting to make himself look better could've just pointed out "hey watch out, petri is actually at L-1)


I disagree with your read of LL here. The momentum of day one feels like it was heading towards a bv lynch quite easily.
In the end, we had 6 players happy to vote for bv (I stated intent to hammer but TM hammered instead)
I feel like LL wouldn;t need to pursue Petri, with bv's head on the chopping block.

So, what I;m saying, if you set this thought-process aside Re: your townreading for the above rationale,
do you townread LL for any other reasons?


You say in your post 163, you don't see LL's
"carelessness" you're describing, so, i don't think that the read you have on him really applies

Pretty much what I feel is you also see LL as being disingenious, thus scummy here.


Basically, what I;m getting at, are you willing to jump on the LL wagon and see where it goes?

I've been townreading him for other reasons, but what i've said about him taking off his vote was the main part that led me to belive he's town

While i don't really see what you talked about as disengenuous, I agree that there was other weird things coming from him recently, like the fact that he accuses me upon considering that he could be scum

So overall yeah, I feel like lynching LL is probably the best choice there, because even if he doesn't flip scum, we'll probably have a good idea of where the scum could be

VOTE: Lucky

Attention, this is L-1 on LL

And to answer your last question, I've tried to take it into consideration. I feel that the logic behind my decisions is sound, removed from my personal opinions.
As such, I'm happy to entertain suspicion on Lucky and I want to see what comes from that wagon.

The crux of Lucky/72 needs to be resolved as I see it, and pushing in both directions is beneficial as long as we reach a consensus, even if it's a compromise. I intend to continue pushing 72 unless it becomes more important for us to pursue Lucky.

Well, could you explain why you'd rather push 72 than LL, I feel like a flip from LL would generate more information

Dealing with other games, never signing up for this many at once again. If there's something pressing that I need to answer please repost it on the most recent page so I see it and I'll respond more immediately. Otherwise I'll get to it when I get back to the game. Anyway, this posting from Gypyx, on D2, is 100% always coming from scum.

[LuckyLuciano]

This is not what I expected to wake up to. Petri looks very good here, though I'm not sure about the rush for me to claim. I understand the logic just felt odd.

Anyways, Gyp just leaped to the top of my scum read. Their entire vote on LL feels like TMI, they seem convinced LL will flip town and don't seem to care at all. It's also strange to dismiss 72's entire case on LL, it'd be easier to sheep.

And we have putting LL and L-1 without notifying.

However, this post is pro the mafia win condition, I'd feel Mafia players would at least try and be a bit more subtle than that, so I'm going to check their ISO.

It feels odd doing this, because it defends my scumread while I'm at L-1, but I am a slave to the facts.

VOTE: Lucky

Attention, this is L-1 on LL

[LuckyLuciano]

It's almost like Gypyx has put 2 wagons at L-1 and has hard pushed a 3rd wagon while deliberately staying off of it, which he later addressed by saying that he doesn't think mafia needed to stay off that wagon.

[LuckyLuciano]

To clarify, there have been 3 major wagons aside from his. 2 of them he put on the brink of lynch. The third he was not on, and tried to imply that because he was not on it, he's town. His votes follow an agenda.

[LuckyLuciano]

@72o, I'm pretty sure all 3 of those lines you just posted are things you pointed out me doing and claimed that they are each independent reasons why you scumread me in your case.

Pedit: Tuxedo's actually trying to solve. I don't understand why people are trying to rush him into a vote.

[LuckyLuciano]

I haven't had the chance to reread and determine whether your horrible push comes from town, mafia, or both. I've stated that's where I need to go to further sort your slot. I'm in 4 games which have a collective 36xx posts to work through, I'm focusing on time-sensitive issues. Sorting your slot isn't time sensitive when I'm at L-1 and my strongest scumread is also at L-1.

[LuckyLuciano]

Catching up now.

[LuckyLuciano]

We're taking him finding random posts where he has a C, and O, and a P as a soft? I'm tracker. I softed it the moment I replaced into the game.

I vaguely had other topics in mind and planned to touch a bit more on each player, but this seems to be more interesting

so let's investigate here.

VOTE: Petri

Mafia probably role copped me and that's why 72o is suicide pushing. Gypyx is going to be lynched, and 72o looks like he's next on the chopping block so he claims cop to buy time. UNVOTE: Gypyx. VOTE: 72o. He's always fake claiming here, as there's no setup with both cop and tracker. N1 result available if necessary, but it'll help mafia narrow down the TPR pool so I'd rather not out.

[LuckyLuciano]

If 72o is really cop, he doesn't wait until Gypyx is at L-1 and sit around watching TM leaning further and further towards Gypyx to out a guilty on me. The cop claim came once people started questioning

his

motives.

[LuckyLuciano]

Man, Karnage is good at getting these Page tops.

Finished LL ISO. I got some questions. He's really consistent on pushing Petri and Gypx from the moment he started the game. He engages them, pressures them, and opens up pathways for them to provide content so he can evolve his read of them. However, his read doesn't evolve much.

His unvote and eventual null read of Petri feels...dishonest? He's pretty insistent that the unvote is only to prevent accidental hammers, while simultaneously taking credit for stopping the momentum, and allegedly reaction testing Petri. These separate moments all make sense on their own, but don't really mesh together for me. Especially since he seems to still hold Petri up as a viable lynch option.

@LL, I would need an in-depth Petri read from you, with some more explanation of your process. It seems inconsistent at the moment.

At this point I'm 100% sure it's just Gypyx + 72o.

His read of Gypx is at a similar point, but is much easier to follow and feels much more genuine. My questions here is..

@LL is your read Gypx solely based on their day 2 NK analysis? Or is their more you can provide?

No, I was also wary of Gypyx's odd play late D1 and his play just before you asked this question only ever comes from mafia.

Lastly relating to the Petri wagon is the BV wagon. He says at one point he's waiting for someone to defend Petri, and that no one does is a hint to them being town. However, this never comes up for BV who was also universally scum read.

@Do you have a reason for not defending BV the same way?

Yeah, two. (1) I more strongly believed BV to be mafia at the time of his wagon than I did Petri, and it felt that the overall consensus was the same. BV's wagon came so fast, and so late in the day phase, that it would have been impossible for a potential teammate to save him. (2) I try to end day phases before the last minute scramble because a rushed game state benefits mafia. Sorry for causing that here in D2, I've just not been into mafia the past few days, and that goes for all of the games I'm in.

There's also the reason I wanted to wait for BV and JV's replacement to contribute. This is a setup where a scum lynch D1 can be a mechanical loss for scum. I wanted to see how the inactives viewed the wagon, because I simply don't see a world where nobody defends Petri if he's scum. I thought I found this in BV's 194, but he says in 276 that he is still scumreading Petri. Then enomis comes in and in 253, is also scum on Petri. Lynching Petri doesn't feel right. I want to look back at the push and see who kinda just prodded it along without contributing to it. This is also why I wanted to wait for Tux to respond to Petri's 135. I haven't looked deeply into Tux's 255, so I don't have a reaction to it yet, but it's on my to-do list for this sitting.

A post like this pings me for its inherent hypocrisy. It's a defense of Petri based on the fact no one has yet to defend Petri, just yeah.

See above.

Ngl, BV's recent posts read as scum who knows they are caught. I don't see town motive for explicitly not wanting to help the town. I have an additional thought on this, but it loses its value if I voice it now. I'll explain it D2.

Can you explain what you were getting at here?

Sometimes when scum in dead in the water they start to openly play anti-town to allow their partner to hammer them for towncred. Stating that at the time would make the read meaningless. It turned out BV was town, but I think there's value in the read in the worlds where BV flips red.

[LuckyLuciano]

Why Lynch 72? I am believing him more and more. I can understand abit of the mechanical optimal play argument but it seems a bit stupid to me.

We're taking him finding random posts where he has a C, and O, and a P as a soft? I'm tracker. I softed it the moment I replaced into the game.

I vaguely had other topics in mind and planned to touch a bit more on each player, but this seems to be more interesting

so let's investigate here.

VOTE: Petri

Mafia probably role copped me and that's why 72o is suicide pushing. Gypyx is going to be lynched, and 72o looks like he's next on the chopping block so he claims cop to buy time. UNVOTE: Gypyx. VOTE: 72o. He's always fake claiming here, as there's no setup with both cop and tracker. N1 result available if necessary, but it'll help mafia narrow down the TPR pool so I'd rather not out.

There are two things that make me don't believe this claim.
1) Investigate is cop breadcrumb, not tracker.
2) I don't see why mafia would suicide as tracker is not that useful when there's two mafia. Unless Gypyx is his partner. Even then, it's a bit of a stretch.

1) Tracker is an investigative role.
2) Gypyx

is

his partner. That's the only possible solve at this point. Gypyx was going to be lynched when 72o decided to gambit. There's either a FN or a doc as the other TPR. If it's a doc, mafia has no way of stopping me and it's obvious that my next investigation target is 72o.

That's why 72o was so insistent on me taking a defined stance on him earlier.

. Once I track 72o, since he has to carry out the kill after a Gypyx lynch, it's game over. Mafia's

only

way to win this game is to mislynch me, 72o dies tomorrow, and then Gypyx at least has a shot at LYLO.

[LuckyLuciano]

!Scumme has no incentive to fake a guilty and sacrifice myself on day 2 with town having a mislynch.

We're taking him finding random posts where he has a C, and O, and a P as a soft? I'm tracker. I softed it the moment I replaced into the game.

I vaguely had other topics in mind and planned to touch a bit more on each player, but this seems to be more interesting

so let's investigate here.

VOTE: Petri

scum!72o loses if he doesn't gambit here. With the wagons tied on me and Gypyx, and TM leaning Gypyx, 72o has to force 2 mislynches to win the game after Gypyx is lynched. 50% of the time, there's a doc to protect me and the game is over D3. When there's not a doc, there's a FN. Either way, with 2 TPR remaining, the amount of non-TPR mislynches available is very low. Mafia has to get a mislynch on a TPR here to win.
Mafia probably role copped me and that's why 72o is suicide pushing. Gypyx is going to be lynched, and 72o looks like he's next on the chopping block so he claims cop to buy time. UNVOTE: Gypyx. VOTE: 72o. He's always fake claiming here, as there's no setup with both cop and tracker. N1 result available if necessary, but it'll help mafia narrow down the TPR pool so I'd rather not out.

1. I softed with C O P in the 2nd line of all three posts.
I also softed with the words "maintaining" "order" which if you google "police roles" it comes up with britannica and explains the role of police in maintaining order.

2. If scum rolecop tracker, they just night kill tracker, they don;t "suicide push". Nice try though.

3. "72o looks like he's next on the chopping block"? Hardly.

Explain to me how when you made these posts you couldn't have realized that you were going to have to gambit? Especially if you already role copped me and knew that our roles couldn't co-exist. At the point that you made these posts you could have just as easily had been waiting for me to be forced to claim if TM declared intent, and then you just CC me anyway.

[LuckyLuciano]

Everyone needs to realize that in a world where mafia is 72o + Gypyx, they were 100% going to lose the game if they don't pull something crazy. Look at the timing of 72o's gambit here. If he's truly a town cop, why does he wait for a player to get L-1, and watch as TM leans further and further towards Gypyx,

if he has a guilty on another player

. What happens if TM hammers and town!72o dies in the night? There's no justification for the way 72o played the day from a town perspective. His play makes perfect sense if he's hoping to get TM to vote on my wagon. Once Micc unvotes me, concerned with his company on the wagon (72o + Gypyx), mafia has lost the game. Their wincon is unachievable without making an extreme play like 72o is trying to do right now.

[LuckyLuciano]

What I'm saying is that a Gypyx!hammer could have happened while you were offline. Town!72o doesn't let that possibility exist when he has a guilty on the alternate wagon. Especially since the thread could be locked before you get to post and you could be NK'd without ever outing your guilty. Waiting until Micc backs off my wagon is timing only explained by scum!72o + scum!Gypyx. Town!72o can let the charade go on for long enough to get valuable wagon analysis without risking a Gypyx hammer.

[LuckyLuciano]

Ok cool. If gyp and I are 100% scum duo, you should be ok with being lynched as this would out me and gyp as scum.

This is literally just WIFOM put out there to make it look like you and Gypyx aren't the scumteam. Even if by some obscene stretch of the imagination you aren't, it's still better to lynch you instead of just offering myself like a lamb because after you flip red, I can track Gypyx to confirm that he's scum. If I'm wrong, I'll know that I'm wrong and that's valuable too.

[LuckyLuciano]

Why said anything about a lolhammer? Anyway, I'm not going to argue with scum. If any of the other players have questions for me, I'm around for a bit.

[LuckyLuciano]

@Micc, so 50% of the time you lynch incorrectly? You need to be actually looking into the timing of 72o's claim. It's fucking obvious that this is the

only

way mafia ever wins this game.

[LuckyLuciano]

Nice shade.

[LuckyLuciano]

72o claims to have a guilty and is working on making other players look scummy so that after he's lynched Gypyx has a target to go for at LYLO. I love it.

[LuckyLuciano]

I'm fairly confident that Micc is innocent. Make of that what you will.

[LuckyLuciano]

72o claims to have a guilty and is working on making other players look scummy so that after he's lynched Gypyx has a target to go for at LYLO. I love it.

This still makes no sense. If I was scum with gyp I could scum chat with him.

That doesn't decrease the necessity of finding a target for Gypyx to go after at LYLO, and making the mislynch of that target feasible.

[LuckyLuciano]

Now I've got the benefit of ghosts, aside from Enomis' take on Gypyx, was there anything stronger than we missed, Gyp wise?

My case. I actually pushed Gyp for things that appear on my actual list of general scum tells.

[LuckyLuciano]

GG all, no redactions.