Newbie 1656 : Game Over

[goodmorning]

/confirm

[goodmorning]

Hello all, I am your lovely IC. I am expected to help you learn to play the game, particularly in the context of this forum. Towards the pursuit of that goal, I will answer all your theory questions truthfully.

That's right,

I will not lie to you

about theory.

Now, you may be thinking "no fair, she's got more experience, clearly she will pwn newbs". That's only somewhat true. Some newbies have played many a game of Mafia elsewhere. Besides this, experience counts against me as well: you all are able to look up my past games and see how I've played in them. I can't because most of you don't have any. So it's a fairly even split.

Some helpful Wiki pages:
Quick Guide to Mafia
Quick Guide to Mafiascum
A Beginner's Guide to Being Awesome At Mafia

And some terms:
Glossary
Commonly Used Abbreviations

I also want to get this out now so as not to interrupt gameplay later:

HELPFUL TAG TIME

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[post]0[/post]

will look like
0
and link you to that post.

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[url=http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=63646]Newbie 1656[/url]

will look like
Newbie 1656
And link you to that url (this one is this game).

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[spoiler]OH NO WHAT IS HAPPENING[/spoiler]

will look like

OH NO WHAT IS HAPPENING

(highlight to read).

The code for a big spoiler is this:

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[spoiler=A SPOILER??]IT IS[/spoiler]

which looks like

Spoiler: A SPOILER??

IT IS

Some mods are fine with spoilering of REALLY BIG WALLS O' TEXT. Some are not. If in doubt, ask the Mod before you post.

/IC wall

[goodmorning]

Vote: LoHa

but silverrrrrrrrrrr

GL;HF!

VOTE: lordj210 for not having an avatar.

eyyyy good vote

VOTE: LoHa because shes 1st on the list and ive not a clue how to pronounce the name

I assumed like the last two syllables of "aloha."

I could easily be wrong though.

[goodmorning]

Sakura!

I dont think that needed a spoiler thingy...

I agree, but man that broken spoiler looks cool on mafBlack.

Hey GM, why you call a vote for lordj20 a good vote in the same post you vote LoHa, i call shenanigans!

o m g

how can i get these shenanigans off meeeee?????

So, uh...

Kyle, you three don't

actually

have the same birthday, right? I just want to be clear here.

???????

[goodmorning]

Hi, goodmorning!

Hello!

Sakura how reliably can you tell GM's alignment with that tell (she called a vote good but voted somewhere else)? Since it's the only serious vote I was inclined to sheep it until she responded to it. Now I'm lost and don't know how to interpret her reaction. Any arguments on that?

What's a serious vote? Why would you sheep it? Why ask a question that's already been answered?

[goodmorning]

Vote: LoHa

GL;HF!

VOTE: lordj210 for not having an avatar.

eyyyy good vote

Not sure what's so good about it. Mind explaining?

Also, I can't help but notice that you "randomly" decided to vote with Lordj for what appears to me to be no reason. Mind explaining that too?

ooooohhhhhh,

incisive

.

i enjoy.

It's good because people should get avatars, that's all. Did I get taken seriously by literally everyone?
I voted for LoHa because LoHa voted for Silver. Lordj's vote doesn't factor in at all.

Hi GM!!

SILVERRR

You are already asking questions and RVS voting which is different than your IC town game I remember. I will openly admit I haven't read your other newbie games though.

I've always RVS'd. I didn't used to ask questions or participate so much in early game, and I still don't know if I like to. It's just kind of a thing that happened?
I'll see if I can figure out when it changed, but idk if there's a reason.

[goodmorning]

I've always RVS'd. I didn't used to ask questions or participate so much in early game, and I still don't know if I like to. It's just kind of a thing that happened?
I'll see if I can figure out when it changed, but idk if there's a reason.

I said this in N1602: "I've had a lot of 'gm u do nothing u piece of shit, eat votes!' wagons recently. I find it difficult to care." so it probably wasn't the wagons and subsequent explanations of my play.

Or maybe it was.

(...) It's good because people should get avatars, that's all. Did I get taken seriously by literally everyone?
I voted for LoHa because LoHa voted for Silver. Lordj's vote doesn't factor in at all.

I can't speak for everyone else, but I simply needed clarification on what you meant, is all. As for the vote on LoHa, it was weird to me that people were voting together so early, so it's good to have a reason.

tbqh RVS wagons aren't at all uncommon, but that wasn't really my intention.

--
Maybe it needs to be raining mans?

[goodmorning]

Maybe it needs to be raining mans?

???????

I noticed we have yet to hear from either Stepper

man

or Mighty

Man

darin,

[goodmorning]

Obviously the other half of the pun is the song by the Weather Girls.

[goodmorning]

Just that they should fall into the thread from the sky, I guess?

[goodmorning]

I've always RVS'd. I didn't used to ask questions or participate so much in early game, and I still don't know if I like to. It's just kind of a thing that happened?
I'll see if I can figure out when it changed, but idk if there's a reason.

Ah, but you didn't RVS in the game I played with you before. I will have to meta your newbie games to see how you start as scum or town. You are very energetic and chatty which is nice but I seem to recall you sitting back and letting others do their thing when you were a town IC before.

Just went and looked, and you're definitely right about that. I can't say that I can remember any other time I didn't RV but it seems it's quite possible.

Like I said, it's a pretty recent thing, this not holding back.

[goodmorning]

hmmm goodmorning what was the reason for your joke vote on loha?? everyone else i believe gave some sort of reason for the joke vote you on the other hand just voted and quoted my reason are you already sheeping not good if ur sheeping already and were only in the joke vote stage

Asked and answered:

I voted for LoHa because LoHa voted for Silver.

Who are you saying sheeped you?

Don't get me wrong. I like that you are more talkative. It's just throwing me off a bit. I figured since you are the one I have the most experience with, might as well start looking at you first. See if I can figure you out your IC pattern for town or scum while we are waiting for others to confirm.

A perfectly reasonable place to start.

That said, when I was reading myself in ISO in some of my more recent Newbies to try and see if there was a reason for my style shift, half the time I couldn't tell whether I was Town or Scum in them. I really look forward to seeing what you can come up with so I can work to improve myself even more.

THAT said, I don't know if it'll make you more readable? idk.

[goodmorning]

IC type post:

Well, did they say why?

Well, it's been a few years. One guy convincing everyone to lynch me said "all you do is deflect." Like am I not supposed to address the points in the case he's making about me? Another thing was, they were all experienced players and were constantly referring to past games to make points about each other's scuminess. It seemed every post I made dug me deeper. Anyways, I never got how day 1 was supposed to work in this. There's always joke voting and people taking joke voting seriously.

It is bad for town not to vote, right? I'll go read the newbie guide.

Hmm. To address these bit by bit:
-taking apart someone's case on you is recommended, but don't let it be the only thing you do.
-meta can be useful; if you stick around here for a while you may find yourself using some of it too. In this game we won't be doing a lot of that, probably, because most people are new. Just between me and Silver and Sakura (maybe Ether? I don't know if any of us have played with Ether or if she even does meta). That said, it would be silly of us to expect any of you newbies to use meta on us, since we've never played together.
-Well, you've got to start somewhere. Day phases are really long here, so we've got lots of time for things to actually BE serious after the jokes.

There are a couple schools of thought on votes. I'm of the 'eh, doesn't really matter' school, but most people feel voting is of vital importance. If any of our SEs are in that school, it might be a good thing for them to explain.

[goodmorning]

It is bad for town not to vote, right? I'll go read the newbie guide.

from what ive seen and heard no lynching is almsot always bad for town weather the lynch ends up being a mislynch or not its still almsot always ad to no lynch

No Lynch is indeed almost always bad for Town.

[goodmorning]

Not sure if it'll help you read me or not. I'm hoping my play this game will do that automatically.

That said, while I'll share my results, it might not be immediate. I wouldn't want to tell you how to behave with me in the game if you are scum.

Who doesn't?

Which is fair. Hopefully I can ease your fears in that direction sooner than later.

@lordj:

hmmm goodmorning what was the reason for your joke vote on loha?? everyone else i believe gave some sort of reason for the joke vote you on the other hand just voted and quoted my reason are you already sheeping not good if ur sheeping already and were only in the joke vote stage

Asked and answered:

I voted for LoHa because LoHa voted for Silver.

Who are you saying sheeped you?

tottaly understand your question ive played a few games of mafia on a risk based game site . not alot of experiance but got some. i looked at all the pics i have on my laptop and was unable to find any that fit the requirements for an avie. have 1 thats to large and even the pre installed demo pics the Kbi are to high

You can also get one off the internet.

@Silverwolf: I dunno why you're looking for specifically IC games from goodmorning, afaik she shouldn't play differently from normal games other than the fact that she wont lie about theory? dunno why make that specification on her meta (Although i've never been IC so i wouldn't know why i would play different as one BUT OK)

I play a tighter and more serious game as an IC. I try to set a slightly better example than my normal play by being more patient and less quick to anger, for a start.

Just out of curiosity, is anyone else is getting the vibe that goodmorning is trying to buddy up to me in these posts?

I could also be trying to get you to up the sass level.

Who knows?

(As an aside, why do I always get accused of buddying? My username is goodmorning, I'm gonna be fucking friendlyyyyyyy)

Could be, which could explain the cognitive dissonance shown in her 2nd post.

sakura srsly

But is it in the town's interest to have a lynch of

someone

soon? Does a "day" last a certain amount of time or is until there's enough votes?

Not

soon

, no. But over the next week we'll be heading there. Days last 2 weeks or until a lynch is reached, which today will be when one person has 5 votes on them.

[goodmorning]

@GM Do you still want those questions answered? If so: A serious vote means when there's an underlying tell to base it on.

Such a vote is sheepalicious

Where?

I did! The first one meant "which vote do you think is serious (as of like post 32 or whenever I asked it)?" The last one, you asked Sakura what she thought of my vote when she'd already said what she thought of my vote. Unless I misread what you meant.

[goodmorning]

Because it's silly. I've already said my vote was solely an OMGUS on behalf of Silver, and I don't know why you're trying so hard to make it something it isn't.

[goodmorning]

I'm going to go back and translate that post from gm > plain English. Probably you should also keep in mind that it's chronological.

Vote: LoHa

but silverrrrrrrrrrr

OMGUS! Don't vote Silver, I enjoy Silver!

GL;HF!

VOTE: lordj210 for not having an avatar.

eyyyy good vote

lol, lordj should definitely get an avatar, and this way I don't have to be the one telling people to get avatars because kyle's just done it for me!

AWESOME!

VOTE: LoHa because shes 1st on the list and ive not a clue how to pronounce the name

I assumed like the last two syllables of "aloha."

I could easily be wrong though.

I assumed you should pronounce LoHa like the last two syllables of "aloha."

I have pronounced people's names wrong before though.

--
Does this make more sense now?

[goodmorning]

P-Edit: Oh so it was OMGUS and not Sheeping,

I've only said so like 5 times sakura srsly

I voted for LoHa because LoHa voted for Silver.

[goodmorning]

why did you say that a person who was voting the same person you voted was a good vote?

Obviously, kyle voting lordj

before lordj even posted

wasn't a good vote in the sense that it was solid and founded on evidence sakura srsly

[goodmorning]

vote: LoHa

im not so shure putting loha @ l-2 right off already is very good

Hmmm.

I'm really not a fan of the way GM has been

shrugging off (what are IMO) valid complaints and observations

with stuff like "sakura srsly," along with how she's been unnecessarily praising everything I do.

kyle srsly

probably you should go read my last few posts as they may help you with this issue (87, 89, 90, 91) (or the first time, 36 and 44)

I have absolutely no meaningful opinions on goodmorning, which is weird because most of what I do have is from things that revolve around her in some way.

I'm like the sun, can't look straight at me oh no

--
I'm really enjoying myself now.
Reads:
Townish - Sakura
Scummish - lordj

I have conflicting feelings about LoHa and kyle. I have no real feelings as yet about Ether and Silver, or the mans.

[goodmorning]

Ocean, welcome to the game! Come tell us your first impressions soon, ok?

So I've re-read the thread and I'm just saying I don't have any "reads" on anyone yet. I realize all I've done so far is ask questions but I don't have any real analysis or sneaking suspicions about anyone in particular. I will check back this weekend with something.

You should ask some more questions and see if the answers help you! Also, you don't have any suspicions, but have you seen anything at all that struck you as a bit weird? And what about non-suspicions? Is there anyone you find so non-suspicious as to think they're Town?

--
@Ether: My biggest concern with LoHa is the amount of effort it takes me to get him to answer my questions.

I asked you the question because I was curious, and maybe to open you up a bit and see what you're voting me for. You should realize that if it takes you quite a bit to articulate it it can't be that good.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

I like to wifom exclusively on day1.

That's probably not going to be very helpful in terms of trying to read you.

@LoHa: Can you respond to 85 please?

[goodmorning]

What Silver and Ether said.

[goodmorning]

@BM I answered your 3 questions in the post you quoted. There is no question in 85 and I have nothing to add to my previous statements on this issue. So I'll just repeat what I've said about Sakura's argument being comprehensible, it's a sheepalicious one; your reaction to it, idk, nor does anyone else apparently. Moving on.

So you're saying Sakura's vote on me was the one you found serious. Fine. You still haven't explained why you asked a question that had already been answered.

--
still mixed feelings about LoHa. Like, 159 is terrible, but 169 is the kind of thing town would say, like "i am so very town everyone should be able to see it and if they can't they're scum!"

idk.

[goodmorning]

You still haven't explained why you asked a question that had already been answered.

Which one was that, a.k.a. Where?

Why did you ask Sakura for her opinion after she'd already given it?

See 32 for the beginning of this discussion. See my ISO for more.

Are you still voting me because I'm voting SW? Kind of silly don't you think?

It is what it is. I could vote lordj I suppose, but I feel that at this stage my vote is more useful where it is.
At any rate, I certainly have other problems with your play now, and have even pointed a couple out.

[goodmorning]

1. What country are you located in? How often do you normally expect to post?
2. Do you prefer playing as town or mafia? Why?

1. See < ; I post a fairly random amount.
2. Town; it's more fun having less info, lying is difficult, etc.

Why start with RQS?

It looks like Ether is directing SilverWolf away from bad pushes.

Why wouldn't they just do that in their Mafia thread? And why the associatives before flips?

P-Edit: Silverrrrrrrrr

i want to help you get in the game but i don't know howwww

[goodmorning]

I think I Townish read Ether now.

[goodmorning]

I don't know if I'm doing a shit job of finding her newbie games but I had to go to 1615 to find the next town game

Nah, I normally play about once every 10-15 Newbie games. Those 3 were kind of a fluke for being so close together because I SE'd 1632 because Mala and I replaced into 1624 because I compulsively replace into IC slots.

seems a little angry but it's completely understandable given the context

oh my god i was so mad
and then the only person who

got

my

special snowflake

playstyle was scum

that may be why i don't play that way now, come to think of it.

my studious "kick the READ GOODMORNING can down the road you don't have to care about this yet don't worry" campaign is still going strong, sooo.

Let us continue this "I'll do it later" quest as comrades!

On read through slightly bothered by GM's 57 because she seems overly concerned about what I find on meta check and how I perceive her-just noting this for now.

Eh, more blowing my own trumpet really.

Kind of reading LoHa's aggressiveness as townish although GM's concern on him not answering questions well is valid. Still don't see the scum motivation in him behaving this way though.

Because people give up and leave you alone?

--
I kind of agree with Sakura on this Ocean thing. I still want to see his response to Silver though.

[goodmorning]

Oh, hey, a replacement. What's up?

[goodmorning]

Goodmorning I am totally readable by this point if it helps. Probably. My last scum game was in 2009, so, you know.

I'm going to pretend you didn't say that!

[goodmorning]

mafBlack is sooooo much easier on the eyes than mafSilver OMG I can't believe I didn't notice this before!!

I will never go back.

Also, welcome Moosydoosy!!

I know, right? I was so resistant to the change but now I quite like it.

I am just going to stop by and say that it's hilarious you all could not understand goodmorning's posts. It's a good chance to get reads.

oh my god

are you for real?




is this love?

@Moosy221: You are kyle though?

also omg this is definitely love


@Sakura: But Amished isn't a very good tell anyway.

I read GM as slightly scummy for not reacting to the meat of my cases and choosing only to argue a peripheral line about my RQS, nor taking a stance on me despite me making a lot of waves.

The meat of your cases didn't really have anything to do with me, and your singular post didn't really ping me one way or the other. Weird how that happens.

Why start with RQS?

I don't learn anything just from the responses but they give me a baseline through which I can interpret future actions. If someone that prefers playing town are dragging their feet and being minimally active (like SilverWolf), there's a good chance they are mafia.

Maybe. But on the other hand, I hate being Mafia, and Silver's pointed out that I had the highest postcount in each of my last 2 NewbieScumgames.
So, probably, effort isn't indicative of alignment.

It looks like Ether is directing SilverWolf away from bad pushes.

Why wouldn't they just do that in their Mafia thread? And why the associatives before flips?

I thought the mafia were only allowed to talk during the night but I looked at the first post again and it seems you are right. I retract that aspect of my suspicion.

Hm. Why the associatives before flips?
@Silver, Ether, Sakura: Real or fake?

I think I Townish read Ether now.

I agree but why? I want to hear your reasoning.

For 190, mostly.
It's not like a strong thing or anything, if that's what you're asking.

[goodmorning]

You may want to back that up with reasons and logic, or else it's no different than those dudes on the History Channel asserting that aliens built all the ancient pyramids and shit - nobody will pay attention.

What's your issue with Moosy's question?

[goodmorning]

weirdly, ether was answering moosy's question

or, you know, plotting against you works too

[goodmorning]

im leaning slightly town on silver and goodmorning

idgi

also idk how i feel about that readslist

[goodmorning]

im leaning slightly town on silver and goodmorning

idgi

also idk how i feel about that readslist

@lordj: I should have made this a clearer question. Please explain your townreads as quoted above.

[goodmorning]

@lordj - but effort isn't necessarily indicative of alignment...

So, um...is there anyone except me who

isn't

null-reading Sakura?

Me, as of literally ages ago.

[goodmorning]

Why?

The way she was trying to sort me. It's not something she couldn't do as Scum, but I feel pretty comfortable calling her Town for it atm.

@mandarin: Do you have any reads at all that aren't based on playstyle? Playstyle isn't alignment-indicative at all.

So if someone is exaggerating reads and being hysterical about their vote, ignoring other players in the process then that's tunneling; but if she does talk about other stuff too that's fine?

w o w

This is pretty bad.

[goodmorning]

Could you put your reads in list form so they're easier to find?

[goodmorning]

Could you put your reads in list form so they're easier to find?

Not at this point. Many more people look scummy than there are mafia in the game which means I'm definitely reading some townies incorrectly as mafia.

So what? All the better for us to watch them progress as you eliminate people from that list.
The point of a readslist isn't to be right, it's to be open.

It's also why I said we should be really careful when considering him later on into the game.

You plan to be in this game long enough to be careful later on into the game, that's a scummy perspective.

1. He said "we," not "I."
2. That's a silly argument anyway.

Goodmorning I am totally readable by this point if it helps. Probably. My last scum game was in 2009, so, you know.

I'm going to pretend you didn't say that!

AhA! Why would town have to pretend anything. But seriously, why?

Because I don't trust when people say that and I don't want it to colour my eventual read of that slot with needless paranoia.

Hm. Why the associatives before flips?

I would like this if it hadn't been said already. What's the point in repeating what someone else said?

Actually, I repeated

my own question

because it hadn't,

and still hasn't

, been answered.

The way she was trying to sort me. It's not something she couldn't do as Scum, but I feel pretty comfortable calling her Town for it atm

Squeezing out a townread from pure wifom. That's borderline artistic.

It's not something she couldn't do as Scum. The way in which it was done, though, feels Town based on what I know of Sakura.

I could probably get a very solid read on her one way or the other if there was a serious wagon on her for a period of time, but there's no real reason for one to happen so I have to go with what I've got.

[goodmorning]

Goodmorning, what are your reads at this point?

Town: Sakura, Moosy
Townish: Ether, Ocean
Null: mandarin, Silver
Scum/ish: LoHa, lordj

Basically that.

She was active and engaged in the beginning and has now become more passive.

Not sure what to make of that yet but it's something to watch.

I'm having a minor freakout about my upcoming Finance test. If I'm still being ridiculous after Saturday, then there's a problem.

So when is deadline?

As per thread title, October 22. As per the VCs, what Silver said.

[goodmorning]

Good luck with that.

There's no way I should be at the same level as mandarin in this thread.

I'm starting to get concerned.

There's more than one way to nullread someone.

[goodmorning]

But the explanation is right thereeee

[goodmorning]

She's handing out easy townreads to Sakura based on weak meta which she has said before she doesn't like to use unless it's recent stuff she's had recent experience with.

I don't remember anything like this. I don't like cold meta, but old meta works fine for me. I've played with Sakura often enough for that.

Then she null's me who is also someone she's played in several games with including a recent town game-she scumread me hard there and a scum game-she townread me hard there.

Which is a large part of the reason I'm nullreading you now.

I also don't like how she immediately questioned lordj on her town read on me and told her effort is not indicative of alignment.

Or, weirdly, it's my biggest pet peeve, as the thing I decided to include in my signature which is appended to literally every single one of my posts and yet still people make silly arguments?

Wait GM is meta townreading me?

A bit, yeah.

I'm specifically playing differently out of all my games, how GM has a townread on me from meta is beyond me.

Some things are easy to change, some things aren't.

[goodmorning]

(With that said, I didn't know that she already has a history of misreading SilverWolf. Could both of you elaborate on that?)

Thus far, I'm pretty bad at reading Silver, except in our first game together where we (iirc) PR crumbed at each other which made it easy. That's pretty much it? What more elabouration do you want?

How do I search someone's post-history for just this thread?

You hit the ISO button next to the post #. Or you can go to the scroll menu at the bottom of the thread and pick a person. Or you can go to the bottom right, hit 'Activity Overview,' and click on the person's # of posts.

As for cases, just make them. Practice makes perfect, and if you never make a case then you'll never get better.

--
Is it weird that I kind of like that Mandarin post? Because I kind of like it.
In a lot of ways it's kind of insufficient given his inactivity, but the no-fucks-given feeling coupled with the many-fucks-given crippling newbishness works?

But the explanation is right thereeee

Unless you can convince me that your nonchalance regarding argumentation for reads is true my vote stands. I for one don't think it's healthy for town to accept 'gut' and the like as valid reasoning so I don't think you're town atm.

Gut is a valid part of site meta, and as long as you're not using it on like D3 it's a perfectly acceptable explanation as far as I'm concerned.
I don't really care whether you think it's healthy!

...Have you actually read this page?

This made me laugh a bit.

--
lordj's recent posts... are kind of better? Am I just enjoying the undertone of sass though?

[goodmorning]

Some things are easy to change, some things aren't.

Like what?

Well, big things are easy to change, like the amount of activity you put in or the way you react to pressure. Little things are harder to change, like the tone of your replies or the way you react to more subtle things.

She's handing out easy townreads to Sakura based on weak meta which she has said before she doesn't like to use unless it's recent stuff she's had recent experience with.

I don't remember anything like this. I don't like cold meta, but old meta works fine for me. I've played with Sakura often enough for that.

What's the difference between cold meta and old meta?

Cold meta is reading someone's games that you weren't involved in. Unless there are mitigating circumstances, such as that you were following along closely and trying to read people as if you were playing, but generally even then.
Old meta's just old. It has the potential to be a little outdated, but like I said, some things aren't so easily changed.

Then she null's me who is also someone she's played in several games with including a recent town game-she scumread me hard there and a scum game-she townread me hard there.

Which is a large part of the reason I'm nullreading you now.

You didn't say this when I first brought the null read up though. You only mentioned it when I brought up that you didn't read me well in our last two games. It makes me paranoid that you are kind of not dealing with me this game regarding trying to figure me out. I get that it's only D1 and there's time for this yet but I can see you as scum trying to sideline me in some way only due to our recent experience together.

Fair enough.
I kind of feel like I have a better handle on reading your interactions with others than your play in general, so I'm kind of hesitant to try and read you before flips are on the table. I do have a few thoughts on your interactions with Ocean but I'm not quite sure exactly how they fit yet. So.

I also don't like how she immediately questioned lordj on her town read on me and told her effort is not indicative of alignment.

Or, weirdly, it's my biggest pet peeve, as the thing I decided to include in my signature which is appended to literally every single one of my posts and yet still people make silly arguments?

No, the argument is you questioned why she was townreading me but didn't question anyone else's reads in the same way. Oh wait, I think Sakura said I was town and you didn't question that. Why are you avoiding her this game?

You could tell us what the similarities in play that Sakura is displaying here and how she plays town in other games that causes you to read her as town. Your read on her doesn't make sense if she's someone who changes her play and you don't like cold meta and I see almost no effort from you to engage her at all.

I'm not interested in questioning Sakura because I think she's Town. Even if I'm wrong, she's getting enough pressure from Ether anyway, it's not necessary for me to add more.
Effort isn't indicative of alignment and I am dedicated to making sure people stop making that argument willy-nilly, because it's annoying.

It's the way in which she questioned my RV. It's difficult to point out an exact correlation because it's not the action itself, it's the tone and the motivation, all underlying stuff.
I've had similar reads to this before. The one I best remember was in N1451, when I correctly scumread emerald based on playstyle similarity to players I've been good at reading, like Zai and Safety.

[goodmorning]

Also

V/LA until Sunday

.

[goodmorning]

Then if Sakura flipped town, how would Ether talk herself out of that?

I don't like this.

And I think you already knew I'd say that.

I actually didn't, and I actually like this answer more than either of the 2 i was expecting, why don't you help me lynch GM? She's faking her read on me.

What other answer would any experienced player in her right mind give?
Still not fake. Can we all try and understand that I don't tend to meta on the surface level?

[goodmorning]

What other answer would any experienced player in her right mind give?

I would expect a scum player to flat out say no, the added part from Ether actually made me feel better about her because it sounded honest.
I would expect a town player to agree (if Ether had agreed i wouldn't have forced her to follow suit, after all, scum doesn't make risky gambles like that because they need to earn 2 mislynches for every member they lose)

Why would Town agree to be lynched if you flipped Town? 2 Town lynches means LyLo. That would be a truly terrible thing to agree to.

[goodmorning]

Friendly reminder that you (goodmorning) never answered my question about the meta.

Because it's already been answered by my previous posts. You keep trying to talk about words and deeds. That's not what I'm meta reading.

these past few pages of back and frth has me extreamly confused now

Me too.

--
I sort of agree with Ether on the subject of claiming, with the addition that 'intent to hammer' is common these days and at that point ought to precipitate a claim, since you're going to be lynched anyway.

[goodmorning]

^painfully town

[goodmorning]

1. It's entirely possible there is no BP, or that the real BP/Doc doesn't want to CC.
2.

Unvote

While I reread. I'm not crazy about the idea of lynching a claimed PR, but it's the least confirmable PR there is and LoHa's been scummy enough that it's at least an even chance.

[goodmorning]

Yeahhhh I think my vote is going back.

Vote: LoHa

Also, what Sakura said about claiming is correct.

[goodmorning]

Answer my questionsss. What are your town/null reads and plz explain why.

but i just did a readslisttttt and all the reads on it have been explained in my postssssss

and htf is one supposed to explain a null read, i'd like to know?

--
@Sakura 584: Not contradicting so much as rushing - meant: what Sakura said about counterclaiming in 529 is good strategy.

Is it just me, or is the post in which you say you think Scum would be unlikely to fakeclaim (which I disagree with, by the by) (566) actually

after

the post in which I said I agreed with you on claiming (556)? But weirdly, 556 is my first post after your post 529 - almost like that's what it was meant to be about!

but that would mean that you put forward a version of events that isn't true, and that can't possibly be!

[goodmorning]

Huh, if you say you agreed with me about claiming then you agree that we shouldn't be lynching LoHa today and wait at least until tomorrow in case of a counter claim i detailed this in 529 which happened before your 556

It's not definite that LoHa will be lynched today, even if I want him to be. In such case, he will of course be alive tomorrow to be CCd because he's either Scum or BP.

And no GM's not an "easy" vote

eh, idk about that

my playstyle is pretty erratic at the best of times.

GM actually revoted after the claim for some reason.

Probably because none of his recent posts appear to have any Town motivation behind them at all, because he hasn't acted like a PR at all, because BP isn't confirmable at all (i.e. it's the safest Scum fakeclaim in Matrix6), the list p much goes on.

[goodmorning]

@Silver: Well, we shouldn't be teaching them that we should never lynch PR claims, and we certainly shouldn't be teaching them that there's only one right way to behave in a given situation.

@LoHa: No one looks good on a mislynch ever, VCA would catch them.

VCA is silly, and all-Town wagons on Town happen far more often than people think. Also, any mislynch must have more Town on it than Scum.

--
I'm not sure I like the way the wagon's moving towards Moosy - with "maybe"s and "suspecting everyone"s and Mandarin only just taking an interest now.

p-edit:

I still think LoHa has done absolutely nothing and terrible things

I keep hearing this and yet nobody volunteers to even name those things let alone make a case, hence it must be swarm stupidity creeping again.

If you've done nothing then there's nothing to point out.

Dastardly clever of you.

[goodmorning]

What do you think of my push on Sakura besides the fact that it doesn't exist and are you still rumaging on a meta read on her?

I think it doesn't exist and that she's Town.

At this point LoHa's tunnel is starting to annoy me, and i wouldn't be sad seeing him go even if he's a PR. I hate tunnelers, always have, always will.

...but aren't you kinda tunneling me just a little bit?

VCA is silly,

THANK YOU. Holy shit, everyone takes it so seriously now and I just want to give them some horoscopes or something just as effective. Sorry, just had to get that off my chest.

ONE OF US

202 (SilverWolf) - That's a whole lot of effort for mafia to put in and it is apparent that she spent time on it because her conclusion looks like she's actually trying to read GoodMorning. I don't see why mafia would go to that much effort and then discount it all by saying that she is leaning town on GoodMorning anyways but doesn't know. I may have been wrong on SilverWolf. These and the following posts looks like she's actually cares about figuring out the game.

Effort is still not indicative of alignment.

203 (Ether) - I don't think I understand what "read GoodMorning down the road" is supposed to mean. It feels like the four of you, the SEs and ICs all have significant mutual history and that's a little hard to follow.

Ether and I have no experience with each other.

209 (GoodMorning) - I don't like this post very much as GoodMorning doesn't give off the air that she's trying to read either SilverWolf or Ether but is more invested in controlling their reads on her. For instance, telling Ether that they'll continue their quest later seems like a way to get Ether on her side rather than ask questions to deduce Ether's motivation for her stance. I'd expect a town player to ask Ether on what basis she's putting off GoodMorning for later.

I put off reading people sometimes, and I know the reasons one might decide to do so without having to ask.
Silver, on the other hand, is complicated.

[goodmorning]

232 (GoodMorning) - Why does it matter that the meat of my case didn't have anything to do with you?¹ Shouldn't you be trying to get a read on me regardless of whether what I say concerns you or not? I'm a player in the game like any other with an alignment and that should matter.² You asked me why associatives without flips. Why haven't you asked this of anyone else? If you have and I missed it, disregard this question.³ What is your read on SilverWolf and Ether?⁴ Why are you being completely reactive to them and never try to read them on your own?⁵

1. You said: gm didn't respond to the meat of my cases.
My response: the meat of your cases has nothing to do with me, and so nothing for me to respond to.
2. I don't need to question the validity of your cases to read you; further, doing so could actually hurt my ability to read others.
3. No-one else is really doing them. I can't ask you why you're tying your shoes if you're wearing flip-flops.
4. Weirdly, I supplied a small read on Ether

in the very post you're responding to

. My most recent readslist can be found on p14.
5. I feel like I've already talked about this

so many times

.

There are two scum, you know? If LoHa is one of them, he's already on borrowed time anyway.

It may be that I don't feel extremely comfortable with any other scumreads.

[goodmorning]

Town: Sakura, Moosy
Townish: Ether, Ocean
Null: mandarin, Silver
Scum/ish: LoHa, lordj

lordj's recent posts... are kind of better? Am I just enjoying the undertone of sass though?

I mean, I could maybe try a little harder to read Silver and see what I turn up there, but quite frankly I'm afraid of what I might find and I'm not sure I'd have the energy to deal with it if I found what I think I might find.

[goodmorning]

I'm not asking for your readslist, even though I'm pretty unimpressed if nothing's changed in 12 pages. I am asking why it is so hard for you to help us converge on a wagon, because LoHa is the only person who has more than one vote on him and I don't think you can get him to 5.

Because I don't like any of the other wagons; because I don't want to start a wagon on my second scumread, since I was demonstrating in that post that I scumread him less and less; because my third choice at this point would probably be Silver and, as I said, I don't have the energy to deal with that right now.

I'm not willing to join a wagon on anyone other than LoHa, lordj, or Silver. I'm not willing to start a lordj or Silver wagon for the reasons above.

[goodmorning]

Because I think he's Town.

[goodmorning]

@Ether: He's thoroughly reading, asking questions, trying to stir people up, actively scumhunting when he's here. It's not a high standard, but he clears the bar easily and then some. Also, he straight-up shot down my request for a readslist. I don't really see newer Scum feeling confident enough to do that so directly.

344 (GoodMorning) - Why do you have Moosy as town?

His entrance into the game was great.
And, as I said, this wagon coalescing on him has a look that I really really don't like.

[goodmorning]

scumhunting =/= effort

srsly

[goodmorning]

+he keeps trying to stir me up, which is really irritating but ultimately makes him that much townier

[goodmorning]

378 (GoodMorning) - What do you think of Sakura's assertion that she is playing against her meta? Do you agree with it? If so, why are you townreading her based on meta and do you think your read is based on something she can't change? Can you talk about the finer details of this read?

I think she's doing some different things than usual, and that she's trying to react to things less emotionally, but those are big things and not what I'm talking about.
As in 502, words and deeds are not what I'm reading here.
See the end of 408 for any further explanation.

scumhunting =/= effort

srsly

You have been ignoring my scumhunting though haven't you? Don't think I haven't noticed the way you've decided to deal with me this game. And now, you are doing exactly what I predicted and setting up a scumread on me.

What scumhunting? I recall a lot of research and a lot of erratic behaviour but that's not the same thing at all.
And surely I'd have to be some kind of idiot to scumread you as Scum once you decided I was trying to scumread you?

Funny how that works. You know I am hard on people who scumread me when I'm town. As scum you would not want to deal with that. You'd rather set me up as a lynch or ignore me.

As Town, I still don't want to deal with that. But it's becoming glaringly obvious that I'm going to have to.
As Scum, I'd rather ignore you, then NK you first possible chance. I wouldn't bother with you in the first place.

505 (GoodMorning) - Why is MoosyDoosy's preceding post "painfully town?"

Just look at it. I can't remember the last time I saw a newbTownier post than that.

556 (GoodMorning) - Why is your vote going back on LoHa? I've asked for Ether's reasoning which isn't very clear to me and I want yours as well.

Simply put - I read the previous few pages. What I saw didn't look like a PR

at all

.
-more preening than scumhunting
-attempts at divisiveness by being a dick
-seriously, almost no scumhunting at all
-and no attempts to divert the wagon pre-claim by playing better, almost like he wanted to claim
-that whole sakura thing
-and what ether said

Basically, I don't find that his claim matches his play. At all. And since BP isn't confirmable and doesn't even necessarily exist...

I'm ready to compromise. My vote joins whoever argues his case best.

Seriously, what "confTown" DOES THIS??????

I've suddenly become her number 3 with no explanation

You were already number 3 and I think I've explained everyone else pretty well.

Also, there was no wagon movement on Moosy.

The wagon doesn't have to move visibly to gain traction.
The ground, for instance, might have been sloping underneath it.

[goodmorning]

I don't think goodmorning is scum.

Which puts me in a weird position, because I think I'm already tied to her in some people's minds, and I'm scared that defending her will just make it worse.

You should not be afraid of this if you are town and think GM is town.

Your idealism is inspiring.

As Scum, I'd rather ignore you, then NK you first possible chance. I wouldn't bother with you in the first place.

Thank You for proving my point.

I don't know if I've made this clear enough: I'm bothering with you. Tonight I'm going to go through all your posts again and decide just what I feel about you.
Like I said, I don't expect it to be positive.

[goodmorning]

I don't know if I've made this clear enough: I'm bothering with you. Tonight I'm going to go through all your posts again and decide just what I feel about you.
Like I said, I don't expect it to be positive.

Because I forced you into it.

Of course you don't expect good things. You have already decided I'm scum. Now you have to try to come up with some reasons for that.

Oh and while you're at it, you could maybe tell us why you are willing to lynch lordj as well.

I could have left you alone, pursued lordj, maybe Mandarin, kept going with a LoHa tunnel. Reading you is a choice. _{which i am already regretting ahhhhhhh}

lordj's play in the beginning stages of this game was underwhelming even by Newb standards - asked duplicate questions, didn't answer some questions, talked some theory but no real attempts to scumhunt, was oddly worried about the L-2 on LoHa, readslist was just weird and also somewhat self-contradictory. Recently his posts have improved, but a. that could be from coaching and b. I'm not sure how much of that improvement is just the upping of sass levels.

Also, in checking lordj it's come to my attention that you misrepped me in a most delightful manner!
When I told him that effort isn't indicative of alignment, I was debunking his townread on you, yes - but I was also debunking his townread on me!
Fancy that!

[goodmorning]

689 (GoodMorning) - I did look over the end of your 408 and it still doesn't make sense. What do you mean by "the way in which [Sakura] questioned your RV?" You are being really vague about "tone and motivation" and I'm not really seeing a clear answer.

That's because there really isn't a clear answer. Below-the-surface meta is really hard to explain; the only time I've ever managed to explain it even a little bit was in that game I referenced.

The way you handled SilverWolf is one of the reasons I started seeing you as the scummy one in the pair. You insist you'd be an idiot to scumread her but you weren't actually scumreading her. She was the aggressor and your posts come across like you are trying to parry her attacks and leave her on the backburner without taking a hard stance. If I'm mistaken, can you point to a place where you scumread SilverWolf without prompting?

I can't point to a post in this thread, no. Part of life is knowing when to speak and when to shut up, and it's a philosophy that's mostly treated me well this game.

Finally, I obviously read MoosyDoosy's 504 and didn't find it town. Telling me to "look at it" isn't going to change anything.

Then we'll have to agree to disagree. Recognising NewbTown is something I've picked up over the ~3 years I've been playing here; if you stick around, I'd wager you'll pick it up too.

@GM Are you a day1-lazy person as town and should Sakura know that?

Well, I was definitely super lazy on D1 in the last game we were in together, but that was a Large, and I always get overwhelmed by Larges.

Short answer: my play in Newbies is erratic and inconsistent at best. See: I went LA and posted about a million times, then didn't go LA and disappeared for ~45 hours.

Should she know that? Maybe.

--

I'm going to catch up with everything, then come back and see what more I can do here. For now,

Vote: lordj

[goodmorning]

@ GoodMorning (734), first off, what "below the surface" meta on Sakura do you have? Like, I keep asking this and you keep evading. You townread Sakura for "meta" which is fine. Then she called you out for it saying that she wasn't playing to her town "meta" which is also fine if you have an actual reason for it. But everytime I ask this, you keep dodging my question which looks like you just townread her to get on her good side and now you are trying and failing to manufacture reasons why you townread her in the first place.

You need to actually read the posts I linked the last couple times I tried to explain this to you. I'm not going to do it again.

Secondly, you also didn't answer my question about SilverWolf. You said that if you were scum, you would "not bother" with SilverWolf. I pointed out that you never really attacked her in the first place and most of your engagement with SilverWolf was to parry her points. If you are subscribing to this "knowing when to speak up" philosophy, why did you not state that in the first place rather than wifom about how you wouldn't have bothered with Silver and because you are "bothering" that makes you town?

I said I wouldn't have bothered with her as Town either unless I had to, do keep up.

Thirdly, could you state what about MoosyDoosy's 504 read newbtown because I don't see it. If you can "recognize newbtown," surely you can explain it.

It's just a thing, difficult to define, but you know it when you see it.

OK, well I wonder if GM is stalling to get us to a NL.

She should know better.

Intent to hammer

GM-If you have anything else to say, now is the time.

gross silver

this post is gross

Yes, I have things to say, and you need to stop panicking. I'll hammer myself if it comes down to it.

[goodmorning]

and to add to the last point with that said im thinking GM is town ut with no time left to make a case and get a wagon going i feel it will be ether him or me today if there is a lynch

this post is also gross

[goodmorning]

I've tried that and it hasn't worked, definition of insanity.

1. VCA is still dumb.
2. What part of

if necessary

is difficult?

p-edit: oh yeah, go on and misrep me some more, silver

that's super townie behaviour alright

[goodmorning]

i dunno, silver, maybe it was the condescension or the burden of proficiency or 'oh, she's stalling'

could be any of those really

[goodmorning]

@Ocean: You did a really good job at not linking yourself to me at all. Initially I was kind of annoyed with you for getting me lynched but it worked out super perfectly.

And so did killing the BP who was a BP. And the Sakura kill after MyLo was definitely the best choice. And your LyLo play was very good.

I'm fine with the Scum Topic being released.

@Ether: Don't feel too bad about it. I fooled notsci too and he usually knows me pretty well.

[goodmorning]

I didn't, but I can say IC things at people if they want. And, of course, anyone is welcome to ask me anything at any time, as long as it's not talking about ongoing games.

Systematic genocide of the Newbies happens a lot in Newbie games, don't worry. There's something to be learned by being lynched, anyway.