Open 899 - The Pizza Kids Coalition [Game Over]

[DragonEater70]

ok i keep running into more of these posts, and i think from spec the biggest thing that rang alarm bells for me about dragon was how he kept repeatedly saying "wow i hope klick isn't pocketing me!!" in a way that felt extremely forced bc nothing that klick was doing looked like it could resemble pocketing dragon and if anything it looked way more like the opposite

and that felt like the kind of thing that i like to do as scum a lot except it was done in a much more sloppy way imo. i like to think at least that there's some finesse to the play

having read more closely now (on page 12) ill have a bit more to say about more general stuff once i have some time to type words

I think you are missing the context about the pocketing here:
Klick and I have a recently completed game where we found each other as town on like page 3, and were heavily townblocking. So I came into this game thinking "wow it'd be cool if Klick is town this game as well and we can find each other on page 2 and win". I basically said as much in my literal first post this game.

Now Klick obviously knows this, and his approach to the game in general and to my slot in particular has been similar to his approach in the last game, but there are some differences. So one could interpret it as him being town and therefore having a similar approach, with the differences being due to this being a different game. OR, one could interpret it as Klick being scum, seeing how eager I am to find him as town, and deliberately trying to imitate his play from that game in order to pocket me, but not quite succeeding due to being scum. Add to that the fact that Klick has basically been having the same reads as I and ended up sheeping me not once but twice (I wanted dragon/dv/klick/app/elements from page 6, which ended up being klick's favored coalition, and he also sheeped me onto the one that did pass), and I think it becomes pretty clear why thinking that Klick might be pocketing me is not an unreasonable thought to have.

That I currently choose to think he is town, is another matter entirely.

[DragonEater70]

I struggle to see this post as being in good faith honestly

[DragonEater70]

Like I feel fireisredsir has decided to scumread me before reading my posts and is now looking for reasons to scunread me.

[DragonEater70]

Considering I'm voting them, probably scum?

[DragonEater70]

Coalition	Voters
Ydrasse, DragonEater70, Klick, Appearance, ssbm_Kyouko (5)	DragonEater70, Klick, Ydrasse, DeasVail, ssbm_Kyouko
Elements, Klick, Ydrasse, DragonEater70, Appearance (1)	implosion
Klick, DragonEater70, Elements, Appearance, DeasVail (1)	Appearance
Not Voting (2)	T3, Elements

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 votes to form a coalition.

A coalition has been achieved! The Coalition Phase is over, stand by for resolution.

Ydrasse, DragonEater70, Klick, Appearance, ssbm_Kyouko
Elements, Klick, Ydrasse, DragonEater70, Appearance - my slot wasn't chosen for this pool
Klick, DragonEater70, Elements, Appearance, DeasVail - my slot wasn't chosen for this pool

Appearance, DragonEater70, Klick,

Okay, I have thought about it.

Ydrasse, Kyouko, are probably the two people we want to vote between.

^ this is my work, let me explain my thought process.

I think we vote between Ydrasse and Kyouko here today (I lean Kyouko) because looking at these pools. Appearance, DE70, Klick are the people on every pool.

Unless there is two mafia in these three, which is unlikely, then we are good limming OUTSIDE this today.

The mafia obviously cannot let 5 townies get nomm'd day 1 or its over. Looking at these pools, it seems Kyouko and Ydrasse had the most incentive to push that coalition. Obviously there is the whole thing of "i know im town so I needa be in the coalition" but the mafia

needs

to be in or they lose.

This is also why I think T3's slot is most likely town. Not sure why he didn't vote on the coalition but I feel like thats more towny than not, especially considering what Elements did.

So I am sorta leaning Kyouko right now, seems other people had heat against her too.

what does everyone think?

I actually think this makes sense.

[DragonEater70]

Some of the issues I had with him being performative were resolved when I looked at his ISO in this towngame, but by and large he seemed far more measured and balanced in this game and less powerwolfy.

viewtopic.php?t=91582&user_select%5B%5D=36973

How am I powerwolfy when I am not even pushing implo right now who in a wolf!me world is most likely a town lhf. C'mon you can do better shade than that.

It’s not exactly powerwolfy. Idk how to describe it at 1 :15 am

Please describe it at 10 AM when you can.

[DragonEater70]

Maybe I’m tunneled

I suppose I think that a general aspect of Dragon’s play this game is very very reminiscent of how I used to play as scum but obviously Dragon is his own person

I just need to look at more of his past games tbh

I think if you read like 2-3 of my town games, this is instantly recognizable as my town game. When I am TR'd as wolf I honestly don't do a lot to change the gamestate.

[DragonEater70]

Why

[DragonEater70]

mmm 164 is a pretty good post if dragon is scum

What does this even mean

it means that it felt well-placed as far as gaining towncred, and if you're scum then it was well-timed and well-written. i have seen you play scum (pretty well imo) but it still made me stop and consider whether it was something i should be considering out of your range

i don't think id say it's a necessarily towny post (i would say the towniest posting you have is at the end of coalition phase) but it's certainly a post that is good at looking towny. i think you'd probably agree even if you are town that there is an element of performing for the sake of getting townread I. your posts, and whenever someone has that playstyle i find it hard to parse because i just see the performance and can't tell if its town performance or scum performance

I am performatove as town a lot

Quotes of people saying I am performatove as town (while being town themselves):

i feel like this is how DE70 plays it's always going to be a little calculated and verbose

Python's hammer is really fucking weird wtf.

Wait
This is not a hammer it's a meme
lol.

UNVOTE:
Temporarily because I don't want more "memes" happening.

This 3 together sounds "fabricated" in my mind. I can't put my finger on it why, though.

DE always sounds performative, it's not really alignment indicative for him

[DragonEater70]

Like I feel fireisredsir has decided to scumread me before reading my posts and is now looking for reasons to scunread me.

well thats kinda what happened. i did scumread you prior to reading the game more closely, and on reading closely im better able to support and rationalize where that scumread came from. that doesn't make it less valid, there still were specific origin points for the scumread (and i found several of them and pointed them out as i went, as well as some new ones)

i hear this like basically every time i catch up on a thread. it's just how read forming works for me

Yep this is scum.

[DragonEater70]

And yeah I don't see a reason with being townread as town

[DragonEater70]

And yeah I don't see a reason with being townread as town

i assume there's a missing word or something here

Reason was supposed to be problem.

It's like 1 AM, whoopsie.

[DragonEater70]

I am performatove as town a lot

yes, that's what i said

I thought you said town could be performative but wasn't referring to me specifically

Again, 1 AM probably.

[DragonEater70]

Sure I'll answer in the morning.

[DragonEater70]

mmm 164 is a pretty good post if dragon is scum

What does this even mean

it means that it felt well-placed as far as gaining towncred, and if you're scum then it was well-timed and well-written. i have seen you play scum (pretty well imo) but it still made me stop and consider whether it was something i should be considering out of your range

i don't think id say it's a necessarily towny post (i would say the towniest posting you have is at the end of coalition phase) but it's certainly a post that is good at looking towny. i think you'd probably agree even if you are town that there is an element of performing for the sake of getting townread I. your posts, and whenever someone has that playstyle i find it hard to parse because i just see the performance and can't tell if its town performance or scum performance

I am performatove as town a lot

Quotes of people saying I am performatove as town (while being town themselves):

i feel like this is how DE70 plays it's always going to be a little calculated and verbose

Python's hammer is really fucking weird wtf.

Wait
This is not a hammer it's a meme
lol.

UNVOTE:
Temporarily because I don't want more "memes" happening.

This 3 together sounds "fabricated" in my mind. I can't put my finger on it why, though.

DE always sounds performative, it's not really alignment indicative for him

Also funny trivia bit, both of the quoted people were talking to scum who were SRing me. Has no relevance here but I just realized this.

[DragonEater70]

what about 855 do you think is scum? you can answer in the morning if you want

Basically, you were admitting that you did a scummy thing (deciding you wanted to scumread me before actually reading me properly), but then explained it away as not really scummy.

This is something I do A LOT as scum when I come under fire, and you mentioned you think I have the same energy as scum that you have, so I think you'd definitely do that as scum.

Also it's not morning for me but it's probably morning for you so I technically did explain it in the morning.

[DragonEater70]

y

Klick what do you think about the push on me and in particular about fireisred's narrative?

[DragonEater70]

Who is Kyuko’s replacement?

If its implo or that other person making wallposts, then we lim that person today.

If not i think DE is good

It's fireisredsir.

[DragonEater70]

VOTE: Dunnstral

His entrance is not exactly impressive and I feel like Ydrasse was scum. I feel like the aspects of her posting that people were saying she'd have trouble faking as scum are actually things she definitely can fake over the course of her being in this game

T3 yfrasse seem good. implo will need to go some point soon. maybr dunn too

Do you realize Dunn replaced Ydrasse?

Why does my entrance have to be impressive for me to be town?

I don't think you ever answered this.

I get that you disagree with the reasons people have called Ydrasse town, but why was she scum, specifically?

Part of it is very squishy PoE, I think there's scum in ydrasse/appearance/kyouko and Appearance feels inscrutable and I feel kyouko is usually town. There are some aspects of Ydrasse's trajectory through the day that feel like they're how she would have played the day as scum.

I'm not wanting to put much into this game for the long weekend but should have more energy to devote to things in circa a couple days

There are some aspects of implosion's trajectory through the day that feel like they're how he would have played the day as scum.

Right, I'm here for an hour

There are some aspects of implosion's trajectory through the day that feel like they're how he would have played the day as scum.

Hard disagree

What implosion posts in 783 here is super vague and you can say this about pretty much anyone. I don't think implosion is super vague as town like this so this feels off to me. Also I want to note that I copy paste what implosion writes and make it about them to try to showcase this and Klick responds super seriously but without much explanation. My belief here is that Klick did not even read implosion's post above and did not realize I was posting the same thing as implosion, and this not reading of posts strikes me as more likely to come from mafia (regardless of implosion's alignment really)

You can tell I am completely burnt out because I hadn't noticed any of this.

[DragonEater70]

Yeah I'm not trying to sort you because I have a fairly high confidence level that you are the scum in the coalition. I have looked at the possibility of Klick and decided he was town, I really see no reason to SR App, and although I haven't really said it out loud, I'm kinda leaning town on Dunn right now. And I've also given a bunch of reasons of why I think you are scum. I might be wrong of course but tbh I do not have the motivation and the mental energy to try and find you as town when more likely than not it wouldn't lead to anything.

So I am happy to end the day voting you, and if I'm wrong then I'll reconsider my reads.

[DragonEater70]

while part of me would like to call that scummy i think i could also see it coming from town who is frustrated by the gamestate and what seems to be a general shift in the vibe in the last 20 pages compared to the first 20

I really need to stop responding to posts after reading only half of them

Uh, okay? What's your current read on me then?

[DragonEater70]

Klick might be wolfing here.

y

that's what I thought lmao

?

[DragonEater70]

fire, I haven't read your last page posts yet, will try to get to them before sleep overcomes me.

A question though:

If I interpret 922 correctly, you think I have some posts that are really scummy and some other posts that are really towny? Is that correct?

I'm sorry because I KNOW this is inevitably somewhat busywork-ish, but I would really like to break down which posts are like super scummy and which ones are super towny with post links and a short explanation, 2-3 sentences on why they are scummy or towny. Doesn't have to be all of them but just the main ones.

Idk if it'll change my read of you or not, but if you ARE town then it

might

help me believe that you have a real thought process and are not just saying things. Actually it might also help me believe that if you are scum so idk.

[DragonEater70]

The word "you" is missing in the penultimate paragraph.

[DragonEater70]

VOTE: Dunnstral

His entrance is not exactly impressive and I feel like Ydrasse was scum. I feel like the aspects of her posting that people were saying she'd have trouble faking as scum are actually things she definitely can fake over the course of her being in this game

T3 yfrasse seem good. implo will need to go some point soon. maybr dunn too

Do you realize Dunn replaced Ydrasse?

Can you eoaborate what made you feel ydra was scum? I agree Dunn's entrance wasn't impressive but I did like some of his other posts.

[DragonEater70]

i do think that is pretty busy-work-y and something that i could do really easily as scum so idk how it would be helpful but sure i can

I mean, idk

Part of me wants to just lim you and hopes you flip scum, but another part of me says "don't be an idiot, put some more effort into the game if you wanna win it", and right now this is the level of effort I'm capable of. Because yes I am actually demotivated ever since that coalition failed, idk if you noticed.

[DragonEater70]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Appearance

implosion, is there a point in time where you expect Appearance to be less inscrutable to you?

Not really. I'd ultimately be happy with a lim on him for that reason since he's in the coalition and I like 3 of the people in the coalition

I am side eyeing you pretty hard for your push on me. Something about it doesn't feel like the way you play as town. You seem way too confident to be calling things out with little information to go on.

I don't mean to come off as confident, I'm not particularly confident that you're scum. It's pretty typical for me to be confident in townreads though by now

I don't think you ever answered this.

Thought i said this but I guess I didn't, your entrance doesn't "have to be" impressive for you to be town, that's a weirdly absolutist question to ask when I'm not claiming to be absolutely sure you're scum. I said your entrance was "not exactly impressive" which is shorthand for you haven't done anything to assuage my feelings on Ydrasse.

What implosion posts in 783 here is super vague and you can say this about pretty much anyone. I don't think implosion is super vague as town like this so this feels off to me. Also I want to note that I copy paste what implosion writes and make it about them to try to showcase this and Klick responds super seriously but without much explanation. My belief here is that Klick did not even read implosion's post above and did not realize I was posting the same thing as implosion, and this not reading of posts strikes me as more likely to come from mafia (regardless of implosion's alignment really)

I think I think i've been being clearer than I have been to some degree. I was specific in the mini wallpost on ydrasse but I haven't really explained what from that I was referring to or how my thoughts have developed but basically I came away from ISOing her with mixed feelings; I figured she'd likely be more readable over time and I had a sense of how I'd want to read her over time and that like mid next day or sometime like that I'd have a better sense of her based on how her engagement develops, how she tries to work with other people, etc. Then she repped out and it recontextualized her ISO to me as this thing where everything she has done feels eminently in her scumrange and she no longer will ever post things that are out of it, and you came in and did largely nothing in a gamestate that I think town is probably doing sorta poorly in and it just feels congruent with how scum would enter this particular game.

I also disagree with the point on Klick, I think missing entire posts is something that e.g. i'm probably more likely to do as town than as scum because as scum I'm deeply afraid of being misinterpreted or getting things wrong whereas when i'm town I know it's okay to just post things because I can always fall back on actually being town. Obviously it's not as simple as that but I don't think it's a meaningful scumtell particularly when I think reading your post without mine it looked like it was probably referencing something because there was no context

implosion can you help me understand why this is town!you analysis and not scum!you analysis?

[DragonEater70]

Like I'm not scumreading it, I just have 0 reason to see it as towny.

[DragonEater70]

can someone who has played with gob explain why this is town gob behavior

i read a couple games and it looks to me like he just makes stuff up and throws it at the wall as either alignment and its hard for me to see a difference

This is overall true but I think the tonality as town is different. Like as scum he bullshit SRs you and you feel he's insincere, and as town he bullshit SRs you and you feel it's sadly sincere.

This is very poorly explained, but what I am trying to get at is I think there are subtle differences at how he goes about having bad reads as town or scum, and it shows here. For example as scum he would have a lot of TMI reads. Like let's say we're in a world where the scum team is gob and dunnstral, I would expect him to shade Dunnstral (but less than the main person he's pushing, i.e. me) and also to say things like how you are obvious town and I am scummy for voting you, but it's not really happening here.

[DragonEater70]

Or alternatively if he wants to push you he'd say I am obvious town etc.

[DragonEater70]

That's my take on gob from playing 2-3 games with him and spectating 2-3 games with him.

[DragonEater70]

ive been reading dragon meta and i have some thoughts but its somewhat difficult to summon the courage to make a post on it

it would be helpful to me to have someone to talk to about the game here but it feels like people aren't really in the mood for that. im not sure if it's the suspicion that was on my slot or if it's the gamestate itself or what

Please do

[DragonEater70]

But yeah it's mainly a horrible gamestate

I do think we need a flip

In a world where you are towna and flip town then I think it would be really easy to spot the scum on the coalition

Idk

[DragonEater70]

Alright, I (mostly) read fireisredsir's homework assignment.

It's pretty impressive.

I am going to have to metadive fireisredsir to figure out if it's AI. Will probably do that on my work break.

[DragonEater70]

Duck.

I had this whole concept of how fireisredsir's town game looks and then I went and read one of his scum games and it looks identical. So I guess meta isn't going to save me here.

[DragonEater70]

Save me from having to use my brain in order to discern whether fireisred is actually town or scum, that is.

Pedit: DV could you be less general and more specific here?

[DragonEater70]

I feel like I can have an inclination to scumread active "town-looking" players, and so I'm incredibly sympathetic to the Dragon scumreads - I can see how one would think that this is Dragon-scum, but I'm not compelled that this is game represents Dragon-scum more than it represents Dragon-town, which is still a much more likely reality in my mind.

This, but @Dragon and about fireisredsir

You think theyr'e trying to look town? I don't think they are though

[DragonEater70]

Btw @fireisredisir do you use he/him or other pronouns?

[DragonEater70]

I've gone back to read Dragon's early game here

The main thing that feels compelling to me about Dragon!town is just how much he's into his own mindset

I don't know, I don't feel like I'm being... taken for a ride? In the way the scum games looked. The purpose of Dragon's free-flowing posting when he's scum seems to definitely be to project confidence and authentic progression of thought. Here, a lot of Dragon's posting feels very upfront, like 'I think Klick is town with a caveat, I think implosion is trying too hard to look like he's solving and here's why'. There's a sort of reasonableness behind it. I can see it just being where Dragon!town's head is at in the present moment. If there's an agenda, it's right in the open and not so aggressive, and I've not seen that as Dragon's go-to in his scum games.

Damn Klick did his research

I definitely do do those things as scum.

[DragonEater70]

Klick just to be clear: you townread both me and fireisred? Who do you scumread then?

[DragonEater70]

Duck.

I had this whole concept of how fireisredsir's town game looks and then I went and read one of his scum games and it looks identical. So I guess meta isn't going to save me here.

i don't really think they look identical, and i don't necessarily try to imitate my town game when i play scum, so i am a little curious for more details here

Idk, my impression on your town game (from having half-spectated Describing Conker and from modding the Marathon game) is that you kinda feel like you have thoughts which you give very casually and sometimes don't really give but still have.

I checked Mini 2303 and I got the same overall vibe.

[DragonEater70]

Btw @fireisredisir do you use he/him or other pronouns?

you can use whatever

Okay thanks

I was thinking of you as a she but saw someone else using he/him so I switched to that.

I'm gonna use she if that's fine with you.

[DragonEater70]

Alright before we proceed with this discussion, do you think it might be useful in determining your alignment? If yes, feel free to answer the question below.

Can you give an example of how your approaches differ?

[DragonEater70]

i personally think its fun to think/talk about but i have no idea if it would be useful. partly because obviously if i were scum i could just lie, or bend the truth to suit the current situation. if you think it would be useful then ill have time to type more than a sentence or two in an hourish

I'll be definitely sleeping then. At least I hope I will.

[DragonEater70]

Um okay

[DragonEater70]

What's the VC?

[DragonEater70]

Klick I am going to sheep you today.

[DragonEater70]

(I'm saying this because there's 24 hours to deadline and it feels a fire lim is not going to happen and I may have become slightly more receptive to the idea they could, MAYBE, be town.)

[DragonEater70]

Yes, I think that's where I'm landing on both of you

I mean, removed from context I suppose I don't really scumread anyone
But considering the coalition I'm at Dunn/Appearance having at least one scum. I don't feel like I have a clear way that I feel good about sorting between them. I'll probably start by looking at Appearance again and seeing if they meet the towny threshold at this point. The whole hidden alt thing just complicates getting a genuine read there. Ydrasse and Dunn are both tough nuts to crack with any reasonable certainty, except when Dunn is town and trying really hard to show it.

I am 95% I know who Appearance is if that helps.

@Appearance are you fine with that info being revealed?

[DragonEater70]

I sorta forgot about Klick but they are pretty scummy too.

klick, de, implo, fire

what y’all think of my pool

I really don't know

I know I and (probably) Klick are town, and I don't really think firesired is maf with implosion, though that

would

be pretty funny. Funny in a sad way because that would mean we would've easily won if not for my last minute cold feet.

Sorry I'm going off on a tangent...

Yeah I don't think this pool includes both scum but I do think it might include 1.

[DragonEater70]

hi my phone died while out and i just got home late and im like half asleep

ik this is slightly ignoring what i said earlier but right now tbh my heart is telling me that dragon is our best chance at a hit and that's where id like to go

but idk im not coherent enough to make decisions i will revisit in the morning and vote and stuff

I wanna townread this but I'm like 100% confident it could be faked

Anyway VOTE: Dunnstral

[DragonEater70]

Could be faked as in I 100% have faked similar content before and got townread for it.

[DragonEater70]

I don't really think Appearance is scum at all. Like I'm open to this being wrong but their positioning just feels a lot more like town. They're pretty distant from everything, they feel like they have no stake at all outside of the reads they've presented. I don't think they're particularly aiming to avoid the vote here either.

Ya

[DragonEater70]

implo the thing i am struggling with is it's hard for me to see ydra playing this way as scum, UNLESS her partner was in a quite stable position

i think if that's the case then the emotional trajectory tracks reasonably well, where she really didn't want to be in the coalition at all, and was happy to gently move things from the sidelines

but i think the people who qualify for that would be klick/dragon/appearance, maaaaaybe DV. (DV/elements being the two in the coal she voted for that was nearly passed earlier, but i think those two had a less stable game position). and part of your scumread on dunn slot is based on your townread of klick and dragon. it feels like a little bit underbaked i guess, like it doesn't feel to me like you've dug in to the logical conclusion of your thought processes

unless you just think it is appearance/dunn which i mean idk

pedit: oh hello again. i guess maybe you do

See that's what I also thought

UNVOTE:

This game is annoying me.

[DragonEater70]

UNVOTE:

I'm not really convinced Dragon is scum anymore

Explain.

[DragonEater70]

hi my phone died while out and i just got home late and im like half asleep

ik this is slightly ignoring what i said earlier but right now tbh my heart is telling me that dragon is our best chance at a hit and that's where id like to go

but idk im not coherent enough to make decisions i will revisit in the morning and vote and stuff

I wanna townread this but I'm like 100% confident it could be faked

Anyway VOTE: Dunnstral

implo the thing i am struggling with is it's hard for me to see ydra playing this way as scum, UNLESS her partner was in a quite stable position

i think if that's the case then the emotional trajectory tracks reasonably well, where she really didn't want to be in the coalition at all, and was happy to gently move things from the sidelines

but i think the people who qualify for that would be klick/dragon/appearance, maaaaaybe DV. (DV/elements being the two in the coal she voted for that was nearly passed earlier, but i think those two had a less stable game position). and part of your scumread on dunn slot is based on your townread of klick and dragon. it feels like a little bit underbaked i guess, like it doesn't feel to me like you've dug in to the logical conclusion of your thought processes

unless you just think it is appearance/dunn which i mean idk

pedit: oh hello again. i guess maybe you do

See that's what I also thought

UNVOTE:

This game is annoying me.

It's too late to unvote. But you know that.

Is it too late? I only saw Klick and DV voting you.

[DragonEater70]

I admit I may have needed to check the VC to make sure.

[DragonEater70]

i kinda like klick and fire rn so
VOTE: dunn

Oh.

[DragonEater70]

Yeah that's what I get for voting without checking the votes first.

[DragonEater70]

Prediction: fireisred will scumread me for this because I did that in Fruit Mafia, even though it wasn't faked in Fruit Mafia either.

[DragonEater70]

If Dunn flips town let's flip firesisred please.

[DragonEater70]

Explain?

[DragonEater70]

Dunn if you are town could you please explain why the scum are App + DV?

[DragonEater70]

Yet again, Prism delivers awesome flavor.

I am declaring my intent to lurk in the shadows today until my reads resolidify.

[DragonEater70]

Wdym by the first part?

[DragonEater70]

Sorry I'm playing D&D with my friends

[DragonEater70]

Yet again, Prism delivers awesome flavor.

I am declaring my intent to lurk in the shadows today until my reads resolidify.

Since you've dropped your background context, what do you think about the gob kill, DragonEater?

I'm annoyed that Dragon asked a question about this question but then didn't give a response

Sorry I'm playing D&D with my friends

[DragonEater70]

I am annoyed that you are annoyed at me for playing D&D with my friends.

[DragonEater70]

Your reads aren't solidified
I want to know what you think about the gob kill with that lack of read influence

I honestly think that gob was the obvious low-info kill here and tbh I think it's a bit scummy of all three of you, fireisred, and T3 to be talking about the kill as if it gives info, because again it's a freaking low-info kill.

Pedit: what if I don't want to give a one-liner response?

And I am also weirded out by Klick's insistence that I answer this really meaningless question when previously he'd been hard TRing me. I know it could be NAI but honestly it does feel like he's fake sorting me because as town he would either just let me be (because he TR's me) and sort other people, or try to sort me more meaningfully / aggressively, I guess?

[DragonEater70]

That pedit went in the wrong place, oops.

[DragonEater70]

Your reads aren't solidified
I want to know what you think about the gob kill with that lack of read influence

I honestly think that gob was the obvious low-info kill here and tbh I think it's a bit scummy of all three of you, fireisred, and T3 to be talking about the kill as if it gives info, because again it's a freaking low-info kill.

And I am also weirded out by Klick's insistence that I answer this really meaningless question when previously he'd been hard TRing me. I know it could be NAI but honestly it does feel like he's fake sorting me because as town he would either just let me be (because he TR's me) and sort other people, or try to sort me more meaningfully / aggressively, I guess?

Pedit: what if I don't want to give a one-liner response?

EBWOP

[DragonEater70]

D&D is finished

I have no idea how it's concerning that I would have time for a quick question but not for an answer that probably requires thought.

[DragonEater70]

VOTE: Klick

[DragonEater70]

I gonna write a proper case tomorrow. Tldr for now is I think his approach to me this day phase doesn't make sense from a town mindset. He's latching into something comoletely NAI. Additionally I think some of his solving the previous day phase doesn't make sense, will elaborate tomorrow.

[DragonEater70]

D&D is finished

I have no idea how it's concerning that I would have time for a quick question but not for an answer that probably requires thought.

I think it requiring thought is more likely to come from scum than town

Liar.

[DragonEater70]

You don't actually think that.

[DragonEater70]

This is not a "I don't think you actually think that".

I am 100% sure that town!Klick would never have a thought process like that, from my experience with him. If I am wrong I will eat my hat, but yeah that's not a real thought process for Klick.

[DragonEater70]

Excuse me?

[DragonEater70]

I can't say conclusively that he would play like this every game, but I do think what I described makes sense with his trajectory on me and how he usually plays as town.

[DragonEater70]

Just so I don't annoy Klick again by not answering: I'll be logging of for today since I need to sleep soon, will answer anything + give fuller scum case and more elaboration tomorrow.

[DragonEater70]

Alright guys

I have promised you a scum case on Klick, and I am going to deliver.

I'm also going to obvtown a bit because I haven't done that for a while and I kinda don't want to be elimmed by accident.

[DragonEater70]

So, let me preface this scum case by saying that yes, a lot of these things happened in the previous day phase so why didn't I scum case Klick for them last day phase? And the answer is that actually the moment the coalition failed I had a strong gut feeling it was Klick, but I also knew deep inside that if Klick was town and I mislimmed him, I would feel completely lost reads wise and have zero motivation to play, so I preferred to let him live another day phase and figure out his alignment based on his Day 2 approach. And so far I'm not impressed with his Day 2 approach at all.

Klick's content state of mind + his weird flip on Kyo slot

Last day phase, we established a coalition build that was Dragon/Klick/DV/App/Elements. There was very little effort to disrupt it, aside maybe from Kyoko's sudden solving closer to deadline which I wouldn't even call disruptive. I reacted to this lack of effort to disrupt by saying I think there's scum in that coalition, whereas Klick was content with the coalition and pushed the idea that scum is in implosion/T3/Kyoko (see 352 mainly). He then doubled down on this and said that he basically thinks the team was implosion/Kyo with a huge level of confidence (see 475). This is already weird because the gamestate seemed to suggest that there was scum in the coalition, and I think Klick may have ignored that because he was the scum in the coalition and did not want to rock the boat.
Another thing regarding this is that in 583, he like acknowledges that there could be scum in the coalition based on how everyone is content, but then never really does anything with it?
Then, a coalition with Kyo in it passed. Now if Klick's reads were "I'm fine with any coalition that isn't imp/Kyo" (475), I'd expect him to, well, continue that train of thought considering that a coalition with Kyo failed. Instead, he somehow starts TRing BOTH of these slots due to the coalition failing, even though he had them as partners before that???? Or actually, what's even worse, he is TRing fireisred for scumreading me even though at that point he was very strongly townreading me (see 714). My thought is that maybe he decided it would be a good idea to position himself to misfade me on Day 2, which is what he is trying to do right now.

Klick's fake sorting of me

Klick was

heavily

townreading me last day phase (714. Also implied in 787). Like he decided to sheep me on a coalition instead of trusting his own reads + the other posts I linked here. Oh and 991. Also, and this is important, Klick had been acting like he feels

extremely confident in his ability to read me as a player

, aside from the fact that he TR'd me this game (can't refer you to a specific post here, but like skim his ISO and it's obvious).
So, with this attitude, I'd expect Klick to do one of two things going into this day phase:
Either (1), continue to mostly TR me, knowing that he can read me, and let me lurk in quiet. Klick knows that I am not a lurker usually and therefore he should expect that within a reasonable time frame I would go back to participating so that he can read me off of organic content. And since he TRs me anyway he wouldn't really need much, just a boost for the TR.
OR, (2), feel distrustful of me after he had decided he townreads firesiredsir for a good reason and was shocked to see that Dunn flipped town (neither of which make sense here, because as you see in 975, 998, Klick is supposedly townleaning fireisred but wary of her). But even if it did make sense, in this scenario a town!Klick would use a vastly different approach to sorting me, IMO. I don't know if the correct word is aggressive, or pointed, or meaningful or smart, but Klick's sorting of me this day phase definitely lacks it. Klick mentioned he believed I am the sort of player that has trouble being aggressively towny as scum. Asking my opinion on such a mild and inconsequential thing as fucking GOB'S DEATH is not going to help him sort me in any freaking universe, that's super easy to talk about as scum. Klick claims he thinks speculating about the death is "the towny way to react" to the situation, but again, gob was freaking the lowest info kill possible and the least surprising kill IMO. Who did he expect scum to kill? implo, who is vastly scumread? Myself, despite coming under fire repeatedly yesterday and losing my "consensus town" status? gob is a perfectly ordinary, uninteresting kill.

Then, I don't answer him and he gets annoyed, but it's fake annoyance:

Yet again, Prism delivers awesome flavor.

I am declaring my intent to lurk in the shadows today until my reads resolidify.

Since you've dropped your background context, what do you think about the gob kill, DragonEater?

I'm annoyed that Dragon asked a question about this question but then didn't give a response

Not only did I not ask a question that would indicate I think it might be an interesting or good question (I literally asked "WDYM?"), so like wtf does me asking a question have to do with me answering, but literally 4 posts before this one I indicated that I was busy and couldn't answer. So why get so annoyed? I didn't call Klick out for putting his kids to sleep while I was waiting for his answer of which coalition he'd prefer. Then what's more outrageous is that Klick somehow contrives that it's possibly scum indicative for me not to answer, despite having a much more egregious instance of postponing answers to a "one line question" (as fireisred put it) as town in our last game together.
I just don't think this is a real thought process town!Klick would ever have.

Finally, his scumread on me after the whole exchange is just laughable:

D&D is finished

I have no idea how it's concerning that I would have time for a quick question but not for an answer that probably requires thought.

I think it requiring thought is more likely to come from scum than town

Liar.

You stopped asking 'why' and have locked yourself into an opinion on how and why I'm approaching this situation the way I am

I am specifically concerned that you needed time to fabricate a sensible response to everyone having a different reaction to gob's death than you (expected)

How is me having stopped asking 'why' and locking myself into an opinion scum indicative in any way??? And why would Klick even think I'm trying to buy time when I EXPLICITLY had a real life reason not to answer straight away?

[DragonEater70]

Apologies for wallpost

That said

while writing it I came to doubt my scumread on Klick

so, IDK, it's 1:03 AM so I should probably go to sleep and decide what I think tomorrow.

[DragonEater70]

Dang it actually took me an entire hour to write it

[DragonEater70]

Unvote me, Klick

[DragonEater70]

Ummm

For one, the thing where Klick said "that's the town way to react" reminded me of another game where he'd said that (as town).

There was probably another thing but I don't think I can properly describe it at this hour of the night.

[DragonEater70]

Unvote me, Klick

y

Maybe I'm tunneled but I think town!you would know why

[DragonEater70]

For one, the thing where Klick said "that's the town way to react" reminded me of another game where he'd said that (as town).

I do think it's strange that sky thought I was scum because I seemed confused about her Dragon TR. I'm not sure why she wouldn't just say right then that she thought 13 was a townslip

Putting me at e-1 and keeping it there after I pointed it out doesn't feel great either

i felt like DE70's townslip was kind of obvious and i felt like the fact that you hadn't picked up on it was scum indicative. i didn't realize it was e1 but i wasnt too bothered by it either tbh.

My first thought upon seeing it was that it was in 'possibly intentional' territory

I do think it's strange that sky thought I was scum because I seemed confused about her Dragon TR. I'm not sure why she wouldn't just say right then that she thought 13 was a townslip

Putting me at e-1 and keeping it there after I pointed it out doesn't feel great either

i felt like DE70's townslip was kind of obvious and i felt like the fact that you hadn't picked up on it was scum indicative. i didn't realize it was e1 but i wasnt too bothered by it either tbh.

My first thought upon seeing it was that it was in 'possibly intentional' territory

Same

I just wanna say that Aureal is a freaking QUEEN for making this game

I mean my role is a freaking gladiator!

This pinged the fuck out of me. I typed up a reply with a vote but then thought I better check the vote count. Since he's E-2 already I'm holding off for now.

Was this just the town way to read that post then

[DragonEater70]

Goodnight

[DragonEater70]

Alright, let me spell it out for you Klick:
You should unvote me because I am mega obvtown, and if you are town you should know that.

[DragonEater70]

Appearance is also pretty fucking town, in the same under-the-radar way that Elements was town.

[DragonEater70]

Currently the only solves that make sense to me are implo/fire, implo/Klick, and Klick/fire. Would be happy to vote any of these.

Pedit: hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm I am not sure what to make of this post by implo considering my own post. I'll get back to this after work probably.

[DragonEater70]

Why doesn't that make sense, when that's exactly what you thought before the swap?

Also I missed that question, sorry.

I don't feel like I can give a good answer to the difference between my town and scum game, because yes I have had like 2 scum games where I was pretty convincingly towny (Fruit Mafia and Open 890), and if you want I can talk about my play in those games, but since then I have become significantly worse as scum. Mainly due to real life / lack of motivation / not being in the proper mindset / idk (look at Mini Normal 2319 and Mini Normal 2323).

So right now I would characterize my scum play as "obvscum" and as having a very narrow scumrange, much narrower than anything I've done this game. When I get back my motivation / proper mindset as scum, I think there will be more point in comparing the differences, but right now any comparison will be false and moot.

Pedit: where have I been hypocritical?

[DragonEater70]

Like if you want I can talk theoretically about my top scum game, but it wouldn't be relevant to sorting me at all because I am just not in the correct headspace to play it as you can tell by looking at my recent scum games.

[DragonEater70]

Something just feels really off about fire as the answer.

I think I'm struggling with the idea that if Dragon/Appearance are both town then this game really should have been a win at coalition, and I've talked myself into the D1 narrative not supporting the idea that we swapped from a pass to a fail.

What feels off about fire as the answer?

[DragonEater70]

fireisred, may I bring your attention to the fact that I explicitly said I do not know to properly explain what caused my doubts, rather than saying it was merely the thing about town way to react? So saying it's not a convincing reason doesn't really mean anything, since it wasn't even the main reason.

And yes, I admit that by the time I finished writing the case and pressed submit, I felt it could've been wrong. That probably DOES mean that the act of sending it was a performative act. I had said that I intend to obvtown and I stand by that, and I will perform in order to make clear that I am town.

[DragonEater70]

Will get to 1182 and 1183 in a second

Appearance is also pretty fucking town, in the same under-the-radar way that Elements was town.

Explain

I thought Elements was pretty obvtown because of how they were like, not caring at all about being townread, having a solving mindset but not trying to showcase it outwardly, and also I was strongly gutpinged by her indignance about being TR'd for something she didn't feel was TR worthy - it reminded me of these posts from a now completed town game of hers:

Spoiler: quotes

Green and Hu are red team, green is pushing to lim you into me for two mislims

I am not even advocating for your lim right now, what are you talking about

In fact I might even have a tiny townlean on you

Considering you didn't immediately vote out Hu Tao for fake claiming Doctor, it's pretty obvious that isn't true.

Do you realize I am the only one who continued to vote Hu Tao after she claimed doc?

Then ur TRing hu tao makes even less sense

As I said, I never believed her doc claim. I always believed her VT claim. I am TRing her as a VT, not as a doc.

Limming elements and copping roden still solves this

Why not limming Roden and copping Elements? Is Roden your scum partner?

What?!
When and why are you maybe town leaning me?
What have I done since the start of the day?

Elements feels too active and invested

This is such a wild take

Here

And that was enough to overhaul the large list of quotes linking me to Gamma?

For the second quote, 2127 is more important than 2232.

For Appearance, I think his main is usually LHF, I get the same LHF vibes here, and at the same time it feels like he is trying to solve, but he is NOT making an outward show of solving, he's just solving for his own sake because he wants to know who he thinks is scum/town for his own sake.

So that's what I mean when I say that I townread Appearance for the same reasons I TR Elements.

[DragonEater70]

Currently the only solves that make sense to me are implo/fire, implo/Klick, and Klick/fire. Would be happy to vote any of these.

Pedit: hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm I am not sure what to make of this post by implo considering my own post. I'll get back to this after work probably.

Would you be willing to vote implosion?

I have yet to think about implovs posts right before the one you quoted. I will think about them and give you an answer.

[DragonEater70]

are you able to properly describe it now?

Maybe? I honestly kinda forgot what made me doubt the read but here's a sort of approximation of what happened:

So as I was writing my scum case on Klick, I was obviously going through his ISO and I did notice several of the things that had originally made me come back to healing him (reminder: at one point I hurt Klick/DV and added Kyo/Ydra, but then I re-added Klick after some things happened), including like his posts where he was maybe showing a town mindset by saying we should sheeo me etc.
Then I also had the thought that although Klick's scumread of me is utterly ridiculous, it is possible that I am letting my annoyance about his behavior on Monday color my read of him, and that it is possible that town!Klick would have such a ridiculous thought process. I still think it's unlikely, but earlier I had said I 100% don't believe town him would ever think that and now I'm like more 80-90% sure that it's scum indicative for him to scumread me for not immediately answering.

Pedit: aren't you the one voting him though? Why did you imply you could see Klick/implo a minute ago?

[DragonEater70]

Or to put it another way, fire, earlier I was of the opinion that Klick claiming to scumread me for not answering immediately was 100% incriminating for him, and now I still scumread him for it but I could see a world where he does it as town.

[DragonEater70]

Pedit: aren't you the one voting him though? Why did you imply you could see Klick/implo a minute ago?

I'm more just working it through in my mind

Oh okay.

[DragonEater70]

This is already weird because the gamestate seemed to suggest that there was scum in the coalition, and I think Klick may have ignored that because he was the scum in the coalition and did not want to rock the boat.

Elaborate?

Um
You kinda just disproved that with the thing below, but when the coalition was formed in real time I remember being painfully aware of the possibility that there's scum in the coalition, trying to consult Klick who was my top TR at the time, and him sort of being dismissive of it and just letting me boil in my own uncertainty until I reached a coalition I was definitely very unhappy with, said Klick has the final say on what the coalition was, and went to sleep, following which Klick happily sheeped the coalition I was unhappy with.

Then, a coalition with Kyo in it passed. Now if Klick's reads were "I'm fine with any coalition that isn't imp/Kyo" (475), I'd expect him to, well, continue that train of thought considering that a coalition with Kyo failed. Instead, he somehow starts TRing BOTH of these slots due to the coalition failing, even though he had them as partners before that????

This is not very clear-cut at all, given that Klick said a little bit later:

Part of the reason I'm happy with relinquishing responsibility here is because I also feel a little weird about just declaring it {implo, T3, Kyouko} and think that could just mean I'm wrong somewhere

I don't think the somewhere is DV but who knows

That's true, I forgot about that, and I think that's one of the posts that made me want to TR Klick near deadline.

[DragonEater70]

And if you mean to elaborate on why the gamestate seemed to suggest that, I think I explained it very well previously. implosion, who was both my and Klick's top scumread at the time, seemed like he was content with waiting until after the coalition failed to push me. If he was scum, this behavior didn't make sense unless there was scum in the coaliton. If he was town then that meant the team was either T3/Kyo (very unlikely), or there was scum in the coaliton anyway. That's actually one of the things that initially made me tinfoil a Klick/implo team.

[DragonEater70]

I think I’m going to ask klick and Dragon to stop fighting

VOTE: fireisredsir

DV is such a sweetheart. And tbh if the scum team is Klick/DV, I'd happily lose the game.

Also I'll stop fighting with Klick if he apologizes. Yes, it's childish. But I feel entitled to being childish here, because Klick is also being childish in scumreading me for not prioritizing his questions over real life (yes, that's VERY childish of me. Sorry about that, need to get this out of my system. Also Klick should know that regardless of anything I am saying here I actually like him very much as a person and I'm just being salty).

Something I liked about dragon’s play Day 1 was that there seemed to be a genuine conflict between him wanting his page 7 solve to be correct and him wanting his page x solve to be correct

What is my page x solve? Or like what exactly are you referencing here?

[DragonEater70]

Right but saying that I needed time to formulate a convincing answer implies that you thought I lied about my motivation for not answering.

[DragonEater70]

UNVOTE:

I feel like it's healthy to explore all the coalition options here

I feel that's a really weird sentence to accompany that unvote.

Didn't you vote me in the first place because you wanted to explore all coalition options here?

[DragonEater70]

Why is my lack of speculation about gob's death suspect

[DragonEater70]

Do you think that all town players approach NKA the same way

[DragonEater70]

I disagree that it was a strange death. I think any other death would be strange. T3 wasn't widely TR'd or influential. implosion not only wasn't TR'd or influential but was scumread. DV I guess was like an okay kill but again not that widely townread after the coalition failed I think. If DV died then it could be analyzed as you likely not being scum (due to DV being a strong defender of yours), so FYPOV DV is a bad kill for scum because they'd want you misfaded. So I don't think DV qualifies as the epitome of a low-info kill and neither does he qualify as the epitome of a widely-townread kill.
Everyone else was in the coalition and shouldn't be killed unless scum was extremely ballsy and decided they could confidently miselim both other coaliton players after killing someone in the coalition.
gob on the other hand was widely TR'd due to Elements, was scumreading everyone in the coalition (no info), and I guess could be spun into a fear kill by myself (though nobody has done it so I guess scum weren't really thinking of that).

[DragonEater70]

Actually sorry, DV wouldn't be a bad kill necessarily but it would be an info-inducing kill. I guess killing your defebder isn't bad at all.

[DragonEater70]

And personality I think low-info kills are preferred in coalitoon games because of the nature of the lim pool. See Coalition of Frogs for an example of a particularly egregious N1 low info kill.

[DragonEater70]

Can you explain to me the progression from a massive TR on me to top SR, which according to what you have posted so far is based ONLY on my reaction to gob's death? Like does a different reaction ping you THAT MUCH that you'd completely abandon your previous read? Or were there more elements to it which you haven't expressed?

[DragonEater70]

Whatever

UNVOTE: Klick

Goodnight.

[DragonEater70]

Gonna have a busy day today so will get to you guys later.

[DragonEater70]

I think DV's play today is town very very frequently. Trying to undermine and dismantle a 1v1 between two people on coalition feels like very needlessly anti-wincon play if it's TvT, and if it's SvT then it's more possible but the way he's doing it feels like the way I'd expect him to act as town.

Dragon, why do you think T3/kyo is a very unlikely team? Based on coalition dynamics, or otherwise?

See, I see the possibility of DV being scum with exactly Klick, but I decided to just plain give up on that possibility because I don't see a world where we win if they are the scum team.

T3/Kyo couldn't be acum together because they just lurked for forever with no attempt to get anything done but I guess it did feel scummy for both of them individually and maybe I am in fact assigning too much credit to the idea that scum necessarily would have high WIM or a plan.

Like if fireisred flips scum here then tbh the person I am gonna lock as town as a result is DV, not T3.

[DragonEater70]

Something just feels really off about fire as the answer.

I think I'm struggling with the idea that if Dragon/Appearance are both town then this game really should have been a win at coalition, and I've talked myself into the D1 narrative not supporting the idea that we swapped from a pass to a fail.

Remind me what is about the narrative that you believe doesn't support this? I feel like the narrative of how we actually ended up at the coalition that happened is more or less fiat of Dragon. And (if Dragon is town) then that fiat was influenced by people's opinions but it was ultimately a fiat.

Other players' (lack of) action surrounding that decision

Although I keep explicitly forgetting that kyouko was the exception to this behaviour, probably because I decided this was true when I crossed fire off as town

Klick if you are town can you just vote fire

Actually you should probably vote them also if you are scum unless they are your partner I guess.

[DragonEater70]

but all the little aspects of their play just feel like earnest town too, things like 1149 and the wallpost followed by immediately saying that writing the wallpost raised some apprehension on the Klick scumread are maybe the kinds of things I am more inclined to townread than I should be but I feel it all fits cohesively in a world where Dragon is town.

the issue i have with that part is that i wasn't really convinced that he was truly having doubts. it's easy to post a case and then say you have doubts, but generally with a town player writing a case who begins to have doubts while writing it, you will feel those doubts start to creep in to the case itself

the fact that they didn't means that by the end of the post, he was still writing with the confidence of the prior scumread but that was apparently performed because internally he was having doubts. which again brings us back to the question of, is it town dragon putting on a performance or is it scum dragon putting on a performance

but either way i think its hard to see the having doubts portion be a sign of genuine towniness. i don't really see the reason he provided as making sense to doubt a scumread that he seemed so confident in

it's a pretty weak reflective stepback

idk i just think the trajectory in general feels like it's leaning heavily on a dramatic display of what the reads are and the changes in reads and confidence in reads, but it's lacking the substance that makes me believe this is really something he's deeply thought about

and it does seem to me like dragon is the type of player who as town will be deeply thinking about these kind of things. i just haven't really seen that visible in this game, it mostly feels fairly shallow

I actually heavily disagree about this about me. Like yeah sometimes I do have something I think about and analyze and whatever, but 80% of my reads in games are like gutreads. And especially when I have a logic-based read clashing with a gutread I often just follow the gutread without thinking about it too much.

For example in the coalition phase logic told me Klick was scum but gut said he was town so in the end I included him in the coalition without heavily thinking about it at all. And yes I'm aware this is meta from this game so it doesn't prove anything but it does show a consistent approach.

[DragonEater70]

Can you explain to me the progression from a massive TR on me to top SR, which according to what you have posted so far is based ONLY on my reaction to gob's death? Like does a different reaction ping you THAT MUCH that you'd completely abandon your previous read? Or were there more elements to it which you haven't expressed?

It's less 'you're my top scumread based only on the gob's death reaction' and more 'this has really pinged me and I want to explore the possibility that my townread on you is inaccurate'
I abandoned an overall opinion on you for the moment in favor of putting weight towards a new finding
If the new finding was explainable from town!Dragon and made sense, I can map that onto what I already have for town!Dragon
If the new finding was not explainable from town!Dragon or didn't make sense, I might need to reeval more generally

All evidence points to the correct conclusion looked at under the right lens
I'm taking different lenses and trying to make sense of them

I wanna TR this post

There is no way scum!Klick posts this, right?

[DragonEater70]

dragon, what are your thoughts on a potential scum!klick's motivations for relinquishing control of the coalition vote to you?

1. Pocket me as I had already said on Day 1 when you were queationing me on why I was thinking Klick might've been pocketing me.

2. Have clean hands when the coalition fails.

3. Look extra towny for doing an act that "endangers his wincon"

That said, I don't think your questioning trajectory is a towny one.

[DragonEater70]

Like you are trying to make me explain the scumread on Klick minutes after I unvoted him

How does this make sense

[DragonEater70]

Fuck I miss being able to play scum as well as Klick/fireisred are saying I can.

[DragonEater70]

Those were good times.

Maybe next game I'll roll scum and fake posts like the ones I made this game and will talk about how obvtown I am and have wildly changing trajectories and reads.

[DragonEater70]

Fireisred do you wanna be my scumpartner next game

We could totally be fake paranoid one of another for pages upon pages and simultaneously push other people.

Hopefully it would be more convincing than your fake progression on me and Klick though

VOTE: fireisred

Smoothest segue ever

[DragonEater70]

I think I’m going to ask klick and Dragon to stop fighting

VOTE: fireisredsir

DV is such a sweetheart. And tbh if the scum team is Klick/DV, I'd happily lose the game.

Also I'll stop fighting with Klick if he apologizes. Yes, it's childish. But I feel entitled to being childish here, because Klick is also being childish in scumreading me for not prioritizing his questions over real life (yes, that's VERY childish of me. Sorry about that, need to get this out of my system. Also Klick should know that regardless of anything I am saying here I actually like him very much as a person and I'm just being salty).

Something I liked about dragon’s play Day 1 was that there seemed to be a genuine conflict between him wanting his page 7 solve to be correct and him wanting his page x solve to be correct

What is my page x solve? Or like what exactly are you referencing here?

By page x I mean whatever page the game happened to be on at the time :p

And I didn’t mean “fighting” as in truly fighting. I just think Fire is the best way to go atm

Yeah I know, I was deliberately misinterpreting your post so I could get a reaction out of Klick. Didn't fully work but whatever.

[DragonEater70]

Oh, c'mon!

I finally get my WIM back after a day phase and a half of low WIM, and people are not even online to respond to my posts. What is this atrocity.

[DragonEater70]

What's the context

[DragonEater70]

dragon, what are your thoughts on a potential scum!klick's motivations for relinquishing control of the coalition vote to you?

1. Pocket me as I had already said on Day 1 when you were queationing me on why I was thinking Klick might've been pocketing me.

2. Have clean hands when the coalition fails.

3. Look extra towny for doing an act that "endangers his wincon"

That said, I don't think your questioning trajectory is a towny one.

the thing i was looking for was if there was any thought from you about whether klick scum would be in danger if losing by proposing that, and if not, who his partner is

like i don't think "endangers wincon" should be in quotes. you were very clearly considering leaving him out

the only way that it's a guaranteed safe play for him is if either him or his partner are for sure going to be in the coalition you choose

and it doesn't feel like you've thought about this at all which is strange to me because it feels like a very important consideration when it comes to solving this game

It's in quotes because there was no shot I would leave Klick out after he did such a move. It was too damn pockety (or towny, depending on interpretation).

[DragonEater70]

Like you are trying to make me explain the scumread on Klick minutes after I unvoted him

How does this make sense

i don't care about your votes im trying to see if your thought process is real

That just doesn't sound right

[DragonEater70]

I think the biggest thing that sells me on fire!scum is the relative amount of time spent "trying to figure out things" compared to the amount of times spent actually pushing people.

It just feels really off for town to spend two day phases trying to figure out if my thought process is real or not without pushing me or deciding to townread me.

[DragonEater70]

Like fire doesn't really have any trajectory with their thoughts. They're stuck in a constant "is it Dragon or is it not Dragon" and it feels so fake. As town, fire would decide on a read even if it was wrong, because when you push a wrong read you can actually find out you were wrong. Like how I pushed Klick and then decided I was probably wrong.

Pedit: I don't think it's a fundamental misunderstanding even if it is a misunderstanding. You are in fact capable of having reads and pushing people, and the fact that you are not really doing that is just REALLY off. Like yes I know you do a lot of thinking as town, but this thinking needs to conclude with a vote or a townread if it's not for show, and so far it hasn't.

[DragonEater70]

i think if im scum here there's basically zero reason not to push hard since scum in the coalition isn't trying to endgame anyway they just want to yeet townies

Push who? Me and Klick were at each other's throats moments ago. You seemed fine with letting us have a go at each other.

[DragonEater70]

UNVOTE: fire

I'm gonna give you an hour to actually do something that pushes the gamestate forward, then I am putting my vote back.

[DragonEater70]

I actually heavily disagree about this about me. Like yeah sometimes I do have something I think about and analyze and whatever, but 80% of my reads in games are like gutreads. And especially when I have a logic-based read clashing with a gutread I often just follow the gutread without thinking about it too much.

i believe that this is your own impression of your townplay and thus what you would try to imitate as scum, but i don't believe it's actually accurate having recently read most of your games

Please point me to a counter-example then, if you really have read most of my games (why though?)

[DragonEater70]

UNVOTE: fire

I'm gonna give you an hour to actually do something that pushes the gamestate forward, then I am putting my vote back.

not gonna happen in an hour

i can try tonight

Well I'm probably going to sleep now so gl

[DragonEater70]

I actually heavily disagree about this about me. Like yeah sometimes I do have something I think about and analyze and whatever, but 80% of my reads in games are like gutreads. And especially when I have a logic-based read clashing with a gutread I often just follow the gutread without thinking about it too much.

i believe that this is your own impression of your townplay and thus what you would try to imitate as scum, but i don't believe it's actually accurate having recently read most of your games

Please point me to a counter-example then, if you really have read most of my games (why though?)

can't go digging rn but off the top of my head i remember in particular your thought process surrounding aureal i believe in that large theme about the mods or whatever

like yes you usually tend to have gutreads and that triggers the initial thought process but i think when you're town it's really clear that there is still a deeper layer of underlying thought beneath that, and you don't just get a gutread and leave it at that, you're working on analyzing why and thinking carefully about the read

Like yes, I had a gut TR of Aureal that game and then I went and verified the meta behind it and gave some logical explanations for it.

Are you saying I had not given PLENTY of reasoning for my reads on Klick, you, implo? Because I feel like I have.

[DragonEater70]

Happy scumday btw

Mine is in like 2 weeks

[DragonEater70]

fireisred, what time is it in the land of crimson flame? Because I think your time might be up but I am too charitable so I'm willing to give you a bit more time if you really need it.

[DragonEater70]

fireisred, what time is it in the land of crimson flame? Because I think your time might be up but I am too charitable so I'm willing to give you a bit more time if you really need it.

idk i don't see why voting matters unless you think we're going to end day right away

maybe we are but i don't really see why we would do that

im content to like continue trying to solve and then later y'all lim me anyway if you want to do that

Well I'm kinda feeling like you might bw limmed but maybe that's just me reading the gamestate incorrectly.

[DragonEater70]

but anyway one thing that i wanted to talk about was where my doubts on klick were coming from earlier

which mostly was that i feel like me and klick tend to approach games in fairly similar ways and have fairly similar mindsets and overnight it was nagging at me a little bit the way that klick concluded the day yesterday. i think because it felt like his process was what i expected but he was coming to different conclusions. particularly 991. i just found it hard to believe that klick town sees things that way, because i was looking for the same things and came away with the opposite conclusion

and 1001 felt concerningly like what i think scum klick may do if me/dragon was tvt and he wanted to push it aside for later and take the "easy" lim in dunn/appearance

what i was feeling at the time was that i thought town klick would be more likely to see things i was seeing about dragon, unless he had been successfully pocketed. as im reading again and writing about this now though, i kind of think it's more likely to be town indicative, since he would be more likely to be not trusting of my arguments if he thinks im potential scum. if he's scum who knows im town, it seems likely that he'd be more accommodating towards me to get on my side

then at the start of d2, in the moment i was reallllly sketched out a bit by 1131 and 1133. idk. it just felt a lot to me like exactly what i had been concerned about in a potential scum!klick, which was to save me and dragon for later and then buddy up to me against dragon. and particularly the soul read comment felt off (reading it now, idk, maybe it wasn't 100% serious?) because that seemed like a pretty obvious line of logic so it didn't make sense to have that reaction to it. the vote also felt like it was an attempt to directly appease me

however

1219 puts the actions in a context that do make more sense to me as a town!klick approach. i think it's possible this is a narrative that was assigned retroactively, but it is a pretty believable one

i do think there's a lot of things klick have done that its hard for me to see him doing as scum. i definitely disagree with dragon's argument that there was little risk for him to hand off control of the coalition vote. that's a big one for me

I disagree with the colored text. I found Klick surprisingly accomodating of you reads despite allegedly scumreading you, which is a big thing that pinged me about him.

[DragonEater70]

fire weren't you scumreading me a moment ago though

how come you are talking about Klick as if he's your bigger SR

[DragonEater70]

I did really hate 1131 though

fml can you both stop having good reasons to be either town or scum

It's really annoying me

[DragonEater70]

imp and T3, I'm gonna need a favor of you:

How likely do you think the scumteam is to be Klick/DV?

[DragonEater70]

Can you explain to me the progression from a massive TR on me to top SR, which according to what you have posted so far is based ONLY on my reaction to gob's death? Like does a different reaction ping you THAT MUCH that you'd completely abandon your previous read? Or were there more elements to it which you haven't expressed?

It's less 'you're my top scumread based only on the gob's death reaction' and more 'this has really pinged me and I want to explore the possibility that my townread on you is inaccurate'
I abandoned an overall opinion on you for the moment in favor of putting weight towards a new finding
If the new finding was explainable from town!Dragon and made sense, I can map that onto what I already have for town!Dragon
If the new finding was not explainable from town!Dragon or didn't make sense, I might need to reeval more generally

All evidence points to the correct conclusion looked at under the right lens
I'm taking different lenses and trying to make sense of them

Actually can you tell me what did you find out

[DragonEater70]

I did really hate 1131 though

fml can you both stop having good reasons to be either town or scum

It's really annoying me

can you like summarize what your reasons are for me being town or scum

Scum:
you still haven't really done what I asked you to do which is to make up your mind and have an actual read on the Dragon v Klick thing which FYPOV should contain one scum. It feels like you are trying to keep both options open.
Town:
Tbh only that you hated the posts by Klick that I also hated. And also the things I initially TR'd Kyo for, which was her approach to forming a coalition.

[DragonEater70]

I do think if he flips scum I'd probably just want T3 next though if he flips town it might mean T3 is town given how T3 is playing today.

This is so bad

VOTE: Dragon

This is really nonsequiter.

[DragonEater70]

fire weren't you scumreading me a moment ago though

how come you are talking about Klick as if he's your bigger SR

your whole point earlier was that i was scum bc i was sitting on the fence too much and kept being unsure who was scum between you and klick, so idk why this is confusing to you

i hadn't really explicitly talked about what my doubts were on klick and so i thought it would be useful to do that both bc then i could better see for myself if i felt they were valid and also so that i don't feel dumb for having died without saying them

but then over the course of writing that post i started to lean towards thinking the doubts weren't that significant compared to the towny things i feel klick has done

Yes I was SRing you for sitting on the fence

Right now I am confused because I don't understand your read trajectory. If you could clarify it I would be less confused. I don't see how not understanding your read trajectroy is at odds with previously SRing you for seemingly having no reads trajectory. If anything, it makes a lot of sense to happen.

[DragonEater70]

I do think if he flips scum I'd probably just want T3 next though if he flips town it might mean T3 is town given how T3 is playing today.

This is so bad

VOTE: Dragon

This is really nonsequiter.

I voted you after I read fire's case

Didn't fire case Klick though? Or which case are you referring to?

[DragonEater70]

Did it take you 4 minutes to read 1285?

[DragonEater70]

Sorry

Did you take 4 minutes to read 1275 through 1285?

[DragonEater70]

That is wild

[DragonEater70]

ok idk why i had been putting off looking at this again for so long and ive just been like sitting in a puddle of zero wim sorry about that

i was gonna go to sleep but i want to put this out there while its fresh on my mind. i know now it's probably too late so whatever my bad but hear me out

the thing that really never made sense to me about dragon being scum was the end of coalition forming. he had a lot of what felt like towny energy, and was just all over the place, and it didn't make sense to me bc i didn't see why any of that benefited scum or made sense at all coming from a scum approach to the game. it just really felt like town unsure what direction to go

but!

we know from dragon scum games that he actually has that kind of energy a lot of the time as scum. see these kind of posts from fruit mafia scum pt:

Spoiler:

Subject: Micro 1090: Fruit Mafia - Vegetable Chat

I know which is why we lim them today.

OR, we lim Skitter and tomorrow I claim cop with N1 inno on Datisi and N2 inno on you and we ignore atsi pushing me.

It's a really risky strat but it is still a valid one.

It's pretty bold and also probably anti-wincon for scum which is why I would get hella townread for doing it out the gate.

Okay I just came up with the best freaking idea for a fake claim

Like I think it's pretty risky but it's funny as hell and I think if I pull it off well then Datisi and Skitter would absolutely eat it up.

We lim atsi, nightkill Ausuka, then I say I viggied her because I realized her miller claim must be fake, and also the reason I town read Skitter so hard D1 is I was sure Skitter was a cop and that's why they TR'd Ausuka for claiming miller, but D2 I realized Skitter wasn't a cop so my TR of her dropped and it made me realize there's probably no cop so Ausuka is fakeclaiming.

Idk if this makes any sense whatsoever, it's probably a horrible strat, but it's so damn funny to think about and I don't see Datisi going "yeah that's scum" but rather "oh I guess that makes sense"

And the banana peel thing would justify why scum didn't kill.

K the more I think about it the worse it sounds but I still want to try it if circumstances allow it.

But I was thinking about killing Datisi rolecopping Skitt and if they are VT (which I'm 95% sure they are) pocket them by saying I was sure they were cop the whole time (I actually have a good explanation of why I would think that), which would

probably

make me seem extremely uninformed. And then I just lament Datisi's death and sheep Skitter and it's GG.

Spoiler:

my prediction is that your response would be something like "we don't need to do that, we extremely well positioned, etc."
But the point is whether or not we kill Dats.

I'll tell you what, I really want to No Kill and frame it as Skitter trying to kill Datisi but getting roleblocked by the banana that Infinity planted. But I can't think of any believable claim to justify why we would know that Datisi was the NK target.

Ao first, do you like the idea? And second, can you think of any claim?

Otherwise we might beed to just kill Datisi, as unfortunate as that would be.

like absolutely wild ideas, and they just keep pouring out while ari is just in there like "uhhhh i don't think we need to do that"

he hasn't had that kind of chaotic over-planning energy in every scum game but it's definitely in there somewhere. and in this game, where he was largely in a good position, widely townread, etc etc, it doesn't seem like there would be the the kind of pressure that would induce that kind of behavior

except... for if he gets asked to choose the coalition. that alone might not do it. but what i think would cause that kind of genuine level of stress and confusion over which direction to go, would be if he is pushed into a place where he has to make a decision between keeping his partner in and keeping his partner out, while also making it believably look like a town thought process

here's the general progression in the last day or so of coalition forming:

Spoiler:

HEAL: DeasVail, Klick, DragonEater70, Elements, Appearance

HURT: all

Don't want this hammered before I see what Elements thinks andDV's additional thoughts

Okay that sells it for me

HURT: DV/Klick
HEAL: Ydrasse

I really want to heal Kyo. Can somebody explain why she's scum actually?

Oh I forgot I wasn't healing them



I think it's clear what I meant to do

HURT: all
HEAL: Elements, Ydra, Dragon, Appearance

For the last time (hopefully),
HURT: all

Whoever I heal from now on will remain healed forever and ever.

There's also the fact that she actually feels like she cares a lot more than DV feels like he cares, tbh. Like Klick you said you TR DV because he cares but literally every post Kyo made since 360 feels like she really cares and is genuinely trying to solve here and doesn't want to get it wrong. She could have easily just gone with Appearance but didn't.

Pedit: I get why you're annoyed. I think either of implo/T3 or implo/DV are more likely than implo/Kyo tbh.

Alright Klick

I have an idea

You said your hard PoE is Kyo/T3/implo

What do you say about a coal of dragon/app/el/dv/ydra?

Then I won't have the paranoia about you and I am even going to as far as to say I will town lock you if it fails, if it's any consolation.

Pedit: no Klick is just too towny I can't resist having him in the coalition

See the problem is everyone except implo and T3 is really towny

And I am kinda refusing to believe the game is just this easy, though maybe it really is this easy.

It's funny Klick that I feel if Bella was in your slot I would have had so much easier time being confident in my town read of your slot. I mean it's funny because I was thinking about her without making the connection in my mind.

Ugh

I wanna sleep

Should I just hammer? Assuming Klick re-votes.

Meh

If I had another full day or two I might have gone somewhere different but I kinda want to hammer

BUT

Maybe let's do this instead:

Kyo/app/klick/ydra/dragon?

Unfortunate






HURT: all
HEAL: Ydra/Dragon/Klick/Appearance

Um

Elements, Kyo, or DV?

I'm actually going to throw a die here

Okay it landed on Elements

HEAL: Elements

Pedit: yes

HURT: Elements
HEAL: Kyo

Okay seriously I need to sleep and if this fails then it fails

It's just a game

Goodnight

Feel free to either sheep this or tell Kyo to hammer the other one. Klick is in charge.

i think the pattern here looks pretty close to how i would expect it to look if scum dragon were debating on whether or not to go for one of those risky gambit type plays, if his partner is among [dv, klick, kyo, elements]

i think it doesn't make any sense at all paired with t3 or implosion, bc they were never really in the conversation. but any of those, i could see it happening. and i don't think he's paired with klick. so that leaves DV

and generally i think DV's approach here does fit really well with having a partner who is widely townread and basically a lock for the coalition

AND dragon fits the very stereotypical scum coalition pattern of: initially amplify townreads on partner to get both in a good position, then when one of you is widely townread, scumread your partner to push them out, and then basically forget about the scumread as soon as coalition passes

i think thats one of the biggest things standing out to me right now actually. the shift in approach from dragon between when coalition was forming and now is massive. at that point, everything was about overall gamestate, analyzing teams, working with poes, generally trying to look as towny as possible. but now i don't get the impression that he's trying to solve the game as a whole at all. there's been multiple instances where it's felt like he's pointedly ignored considering who could be the partner of the person he's pushing. it's just a completely different way of looking at the game, and yes, the gamestate has changed, but if you look at for example t3/implo/klick, the way they're currently solving still feels like the same general approach they had earlier in the game, and i think that comes from a town mindset of genuinely wanting to solve the game

You do realize I ended up implementing 0 of these wild ideas that game?

[DragonEater70]

So are you saying my partner is either you or Klickthis case makes no sense

[DragonEater70]

Meh

If you are gonna scumread me for being towny you are gonna need a better case than that.

[DragonEater70]

I disagree that I haven't looked at people being partnered

I have expressly talked about teams today

And last day ohase I was extremely low WIM so wasn't even trying to solve properly

[DragonEater70]

for someone who is apparently scumreading and trying to sort me it sure seems like dragon has very little interest in actually reading my posts

Tbh I did not see 1285 at all until after I made these posts so

[DragonEater70]

So are you saying my partner is either you or Klickthis case makes no sense

like i don't see how this post comes from anyone reading in good faith or giving things more than just a skim

I was live reacting as I was reading

[DragonEater70]

Then I ran away because I felt like it

Now I'm gonna reread that post

[DragonEater70]

Like okay yeah I could see why you could see DV as either my or Klick's partner because I can see him as Klick's partner for the same reasons.

But I can't see why you are scumreading me for a meta argument about what I could think as scum rather than what I could do as scum.

[DragonEater70]

Thing is, even after 1285 you haven't really voted me and haven't really expressed a verdict on Klick. Like basically what I got from you is that there are a lot of reasons why Klick is scum but maybe he's town, andthen on the other hand there are reasons why I am town but then actually they are inside what you imagine to be my scumrange (maybe correctly, but probably not), so therefore I am scum? With DV?

It feels very incomplete.

[DragonEater70]

Scum:
you still haven't really done what I asked you to do which is to make up your mind and have an actual read on the Dragon v Klick thing which FYPOV should contain one scum. It feels like you are trying to keep both options open.

how would keeping both options open be at all beneficial to me as scum in the current gamestate?

Because if you are scum then there is currently a town block of Klick/Dragon/DV, which has just gone through infighting and you'd like to be able to steer both me and Klick to vote the other, but you aren't really sure which one is the viable lim if any, so you are leaving both semi-viable.

Do you disagree that this is the case if you are scum?

[DragonEater70]

I probably phrased this horribly so if you need clarification just ask.

[DragonEater70]

Like okay yeah I could see why you could see DV as either my or Klick's partner because I can see him as Klick's partner for the same reasons.

But I can't see why you are scumreading me for a meta argument about what I could think as scum rather than what I could do as scum.

that isn't the reason i think you're scum, i already gave a lot of reasons why i think you're scum

that's the reason why i think i was wrong to previously believe that portion of the game wouldn't come from scum and so you were more likely to be town

Could ypu refresh my memory? Because I mostly remember you saying I'm in my scumrange, being performative (even though I'm SUPER known to be performative as town, not sure if it was this game where I quoted proof of this or another one), and then trying to get townread which again is something I do as town.

If there's any other reason please remind me what it is.

[DragonEater70]

Thing is, even after 1285 you haven't really voted me and haven't really expressed a verdict on Klick. Like basically what I got from you is that there are a lot of reasons why Klick is scum but maybe he's town, andthen on the other hand there are reasons why I am town but then actually they are inside what you imagine to be my scumrange (maybe correctly, but probably not), so therefore I am scum? With DV?

It feels very incomplete.

yes i think you are scum and klick is town, you shouldn't need a vote to figure that out

I'm saying your thought process feels incomplete regardless of the vote or lack thereof.

[DragonEater70]

mmm 164 is a pretty good post if dragon is scum

What does this even mean

it means that it felt well-placed as far as gaining towncred, and if you're scum then it was well-timed and well-written. i have seen you play scum (pretty well imo) but it still made me stop and consider whether it was something i should be considering out of your range

i don't think id say it's a necessarily towny post (i would say the towniest posting you have is at the end of coalition phase) but it's certainly a post that is good at looking towny. i think you'd probably agree even if you are town that there is an element of performing for the sake of getting townread I. your posts, and whenever someone has that playstyle i find it hard to parse because i just see the performance and can't tell if its town performance or scum performance

I am performatove as town a lot

Quotes of people saying I am performatove as town (while being town themselves):

i feel like this is how DE70 plays it's always going to be a little calculated and verbose

Python's hammer is really fucking weird wtf.

Wait
This is not a hammer it's a meme
lol.

UNVOTE:
Temporarily because I don't want more "memes" happening.

This 3 together sounds "fabricated" in my mind. I can't put my finger on it why, though.

DE always sounds performative, it's not really alignment indicative for him

Yeah this

And then you keep talking about the question of whether I'm town performative or scum performative, but I don't see your thought process on this (except for 1285 I guess, which basically says there's a certain narrative where it could work as scum performative but I see no explanation of why you think that narrative is likelier than town performative).

Which reminds me of this article which explains why scum push things as "possible" while town look at what's *probable*.

[DragonEater70]

Thing is, even after 1285 you haven't really voted me and haven't really expressed a verdict on Klick. Like basically what I got from you is that there are a lot of reasons why Klick is scum but maybe he's town, andthen on the other hand there are reasons why I am town but then actually they are inside what you imagine to be my scumrange (maybe correctly, but probably not), so therefore I am scum? With DV?

It feels very incomplete.

yes i think you are scum and klick is town, you shouldn't need a vote to figure that out

I'm saying your thought process feels incomplete regardless of the vote or lack thereof.

i mean sure its incomplete if you keep ignoring parts of it

Which part

[DragonEater70]

Scum:
you still haven't really done what I asked you to do which is to make up your mind and have an actual read on the Dragon v Klick thing which FYPOV should contain one scum. It feels like you are trying to keep both options open.

how would keeping both options open be at all beneficial to me as scum in the current gamestate?

Because if you are scum then there is currently a town block of Klick/Dragon/DV, which has just gone through infighting and you'd like to be able to steer both me and Klick to vote the other, but you aren't really sure which one is the viable lim if any, so you are leaving both semi-viable.

Do you disagree that this is the case if you are scum?

yes i disagree, there's no reason to wait things out. that literally gains me nothing if im scum. if you were all town it would just give you time to find each other

if im scum who wants to not die today then one of you two or appearance has to be the elim and the way to make that happen is to push for it. sitting around waiting means i would have no strong position in the game and means people probably just default to pushing me

I am not saying you are waiting. I am saying you are simultaneously pushing me and leaving the possibility of pushing Klick open.

[DragonEater70]

@mod, V/LA through weekend

I'll try to read and reply to youfirewhen I have time tomorrow but IDKif I will actually have time tomorrow.

[DragonEater70]

saying that my scumread is based on you "being too towny" is also like clearly bad faith

Incorrect.

I know I am town. Therefore, I cannot be scum trying to look like town. If people TR me it's because I am towny, not because I am trying to look town.

We're in a universe where I was widely TR'd and virtually everyone except T3 was TRing me pre-coalition lock. Therefore, FMPOV, I am

objectively

towny. The fact that you are Scumreading me for my behavior which is objectively towny (as it gets me townread), means that FMPOV, you are OBJECTIVELY scumreading me for being too towny.

[DragonEater70]

well that's just very faulty logic

So is it faulty logic or bad faith

[DragonEater70]

Also I realize I might be tunneled because you are right that some of my arguments of why you are scum kinda suck, so I am going to do a reread of everything that happened post-coalition at my earliest convenience (probably Monday).

[DragonEater70]

dragon’s shade was ridiculous on page 53… no way he actually believes that I could be scum because it took me 4 minutes to read

I didn't call you scum for it, I just said it was wild and I did sincerely feel it was wild.

[DragonEater70]

Like I can call things out as wild without saying they are necessarily scum indicative

[DragonEater70]

I've caught up.

I'm a bit tired of thinking about DragonEater's alignment in this game in general. Because there's a lack of clarity as to his perceived and actual scum range, and I haven't a clue what a DragonEater scum game would actually look like if he drew red here. Contrast that with feeling like I know what a fire scum game would look like - very similar to a town one, and what we're seeing currently. This description encapsulates why I am uncertain here.

I feel sort of rotationally similar to this, in that I think I'm being convinced that I have a pretty murky picture of what a DragonEater scum game would look like but I think I do know what his town game would look like if he had drawn green here and it's pretty much this picture. I am remembering that fire is a player I have historically figured that I probably just can't read well at all.

I feel like fire's reasons for "this could be Dragon's scum game" in 1285 are in essence compelling reasons for exactly that, that the way Dragon played around the coalition is not a reason to locktown Dragon because it can come from Dragon-scum. But "this thing people are locktowning Dragon for could come from Dragon as scum" is not strictly a reason to scumread Dragon, and it's not even necessarily an argument that that thing Dragon did isn't on net more likely to come from him as town than as scum.

I feel like the wholistic read of Dragon's ISO at this point just makes it hard for me to believe that it's not his town game, and it's possible that

i

am town tunneling him but things like him calling T3 scum for taking 4 minutes to read a post and his (I agree with fire here) very uninspiring logic in 1348 are, I think, also evidence of him being town because I just don't understand what reasons he has to post those things as scum. The former just alienates T3 if T3 is town and looks really weird and attention-draw-y if they're scum together, the latter is the kind of thing that I feel is very easy to post when you have the brazenness of actually being town and very hard to decide to post when you're in this public 1v1 as scum and you're trying to play the crowd or whatever. Bad logic is probably pretty correlated with being town, in practice, because town is on average less self-critical about what they're posting.

Basically I think I haven't seen any good reason why Dragon wouldn't have made any of the posts he's made as town.

I think fire is the best lim. I ideally would like to get some life out of Appearance before day end but I know he's V/LA.

These are exactly my thoughts on why I feel fire's read of me feels incomplete lol

[DragonEater70]

My one problem here is I'm struggling to see who could be fire's partner if fire is scum.

[DragonEater70]

I have done thinking about the probable scumteams in a fire!town world and have come to basically the same conclusion as fire has posted, that the most viable scumteam in that scenario is DragonEater/DeasVail. However, I am unconvinced currently that either of these players is actually scum.

i guess this implies that my townflip would be the missing piece that would allow you to be convinced

which is a bit relieving and maybe means i can stop worring as much, aside from the usual worry that i am Wrong, Actually

although i have no idea where implo and appearance's heads are at

If you are town you should stop scumreading me for the fact that I'm inside my perceived scumrange and start looking at "could DE's posts come from town and how likely are they to come from town" and then ask yourself who is the team if I'm town.

I'm saying that because if you ARE town then you ARE wrong.

[DragonEater70]

Anyway

As I said going to reread either Monday or Tuesday (just found out we have quite some time to deadline and I have real life plans for Monday, namely more D&D), and determine whether I can either find fire as town or find an explanation of who their oartner would be if scum.

Goodbye for now unless I can't fall asleep in which case I'll probably post stuff at 1 AM.

[DragonEater70]

i don't want to spam the thread too much but i was rereading to see if i felt the solve made sense in the early game and i think it does

97 and 100 into 131 in particular feel pretty questionable. "trying hard to be townread" is basically dv's reason to suspect dragon, so the fact that dragon assigning that read to someone else is being treated as a mindmeld and reason to townread is kinda ?

in general i think their reads on each other are fairly awkward. there's more of that from the dragon direction and im not really sure how to feel about DV identifying and calling that out himself here

also when i came across 164 again i think especially it doesn't make sense from a town mindset coming right after 148 and it kinda feels to me like tmi that the townblock is not at all pure. i don't think town here would have this reaction given the way dragon has been treating klick in the game

You aren't making sense and if you are town you should REMOVE the "dragon is confscum" lens from your eyes when you read things.

1. DV specifically said they were SRing implo for trying to be townread, and had implo as their bottom read before I mentioned having that read. Of course it's a mindmeld. How the fuck else should DV treat it?

2. I have been very vocal about the idea that I hate reading gamestates where people aren't trying to find scum, only town. I personally have no idea how you could ever have good reads in such a state since all scum has to do to blend in is just townread town. I also despise low-action games and thrive in high-action, dynamic games. Klick's 148 was not really a step toward finding scum OR toward making the game faster or more dynamic. He was just asking me to talk about my TRs of a bunch of people who I was mildly TRing but with no proper reference point of how scum would act because I have payed maybe 2 games where the object was to find town and not scum and lost both, and also because I couldn't fond any scum either way. So these two posts are completely unrelated.

And claiming 164 is not a town mindset is ridiculous. Scum mindset doesn't give a hot damn about town stunbling about. Town does.

This is such a bad, horrible, stupid and nonsensical post and overall tunnel that I think you are just to scummy to be "too scummy to be scum", i.e you are just scum. But if you are town then freaking stop being so obstinately tunneled and actually use your brain because your arguments are stupid. And I would use harsher words but I just can't bring myself to it because I hate being mean to people and I think you are probably not a horrible person outsode of this game.

[DragonEater70]

I think you are probably not a horrible person outsode of this game

gee thanks

Sorry that was rude

[DragonEater70]

I don't really know you but I do have an inkling that you are probably a cool person

Does that sound better?

[DragonEater70]

And feel free to give the "things that make dragon more likely scum" list whenever you want, no pressure.

[DragonEater70]

Goodnight for now.

[DragonEater70]

Oh one last thing before I go to sleep: if anyone's wondering why I am not voting fireisred (I know I am), it's because I don't get how could they be partnered with anyone. Like I guess they could be partnered with Klick, but that'd necessitate believing Klick managed to pocket both me and DV and now prefers to bus his partner than just go for the mislim on me and THEN bus his partner.
And I guess they could be partnered with T3 but that would require T3/Kyo just waiying patiently to lose until I randomly let them in the coalition and then T3/fire, in the same game they eaited patiently to lose, powerwolfing and being the only two people on a wagon.
And I guess they make some sense as an implosion partner, especially because implosion hasn't really voted them yet, and I guess that would mean Klick was right and I was a dummy for changing the coalition, (but it'd also mean my page 6 solve was correct ), bit that'd mean the scum had the weirdest gameplan ever of just spending as much as theyccan distancing and bussing, which might actually be the case and I guess I'd talked myself into thinking it could be fire/implo.
I'll need to review this team tomorrow or Tuesday or whenever it is I have time to properly sit and read.

[DragonEater70]

T3 can you link the last completed town games you won/lost, respectively?

[DragonEater70]

Thanks T3

I did a VERY brief skim of your ISO in both games you linked and interestingly I found the one where you lost to have a noticeable difference in vibe / mindset / posting style or whatever to your scum game and also to this game, while the one you won was more similar to this game but also to your scumgame.

So it wasn't very helpful overall except maybe show that I think your scum game sounds similar to your town game most likely.

[DragonEater70]

implosion who do you plan to vote rn?

[DragonEater70]

I don't think you are gonna get more from Appearance tbh

[DragonEater70]

Reiterating what I said on Sunday: I wanna sit and reread all of fire's ISO this evening, and see if their accusations of me being disingenuous/stupid/uncharitable/ommitting important parts in how I'm reading them holds water or not. After which I'll either hammer or not.

[DragonEater70]

Reading fire's iso

1230 is just completely off from a town's viewpoint. If she doesn't know who to elim she shouldn't be defaulting to herself as town, she should work to find who to elim. Like how is a miselim on town!fire going to help us figure out the scum. Specifically they say "if everyone knows there's confirmed scum in Klick/Dragon/App then it'd be easier to figure out the scum there" but wouldn't it be confirmed to town!fire that there's scum in us and yet they're struggling?

1249 misunderstands me in a way which I could see coming from town but I do think is likelier to come from scum because instead of asking me about the thing they don't understand, they just say it's weird and it feels like an excuse to scumread/discredit me.

Anyway I do feel obliged to answer that unasked question: I think I made it clear that if Klick is scum then I think DV might be his partner and vice versa. Both Klick and DV were widely townread during the end of the coalition phase. True, I tried to remove them from the coalition, but they did a LOT to win back my favor before the coalition was locked in. They didn't all-out panic because that would kinda implicate them as scum, but they definitely made a lot of towny-looking posts which I am not even sure were necessary at that point. So to me if Klick was scum, saying he'd sheep me was basically taking a calculated risk knowing I was TRing both him and DV, and reinforcing that TR by making a lot of towny posts. And he could always just not sheep me and say "sorry I think this composition loses".

Anyhow moving on

So in looking at fire's iso, in post 1373 she says that 1285 was not really the reason why she was scumreading me but only an explanation of why her reasons for TRing me suck.

But if you actually go through her ISO I don't feel this makes sense as a progression because in 1230 (which I talked about just now) she said she basically TRs me and Klick equally and it doesn't really sound she has any up-to-date reasons to scunread me. Then there are a bunch of posts questioning stuff and talking about how she's gonna solve and then there's suddenly 1280 where she TR's Klick followed by 1285 where she explains why the townread on me sucks, and then when I accuse her of having of being hedgy she says I'm reading her in bad faith and that she clearly scumreads me over Klick.
And honestly maybe I am reading fire in bad faith but I can't make sense of her progression at all. Maybe it's my fault though.

Fuck, I am gonna need to spend an hour or something trying to figure out if I am just terribly misunderstanding fire or if their narrative is really that inconsistent. Because honestly my own interpretation stopped making sense to me atp.

[DragonEater70]

Okay I just went through Kyouko's ISO again and I feel this is town!Kyouko. I know I currently do not have a long list of games where I correctly read Kyo to support this, in fact only one completed game (Large Normal 246 as Broccoli Quest 2), but I do feel highly confident in my ability to correctly read her and I don't think this is scum Kyo. I am not as confident here as I was in that game because I have a lower sample size of big Kyoko posts, but I do think they are mostly town!Kyo rather than scum Kyo posts.

I also tried to back off for a bit from my sort of 1v1 with fire and I have to say, I do still feel justified in scunreading them because their progression this game feels extremely weak, but I guess I can at least see some sort of progression. If I understand correctly, this is what they were thinking mostly:

- They saw me talking about being pocketed by Klick and thought that it was a show to get townread. And they ignored my explanation of why I said that.
- They saw a lot of performative posts by me and couldn't figure out if it was town performative or scum performative (which ia honestly not a reason to SR me but whatever).
- they did however TR the fact I was so indecisive about the coalition and my town energy there.
- they also thought Klick's progression and vote on me were iffy.
- they didn't understand my thought process on Klick and instead of asking they decided to tunnel me (weird)
- they then decided to dismiss the Klick scumread (idk why) and also decided that I could act the way I did toward end of coalition as scum, and this out them in a position where the possibility of scum performativeness, reading ke in bad faith due to tunnel, and thinking my thought about Klick pocketing me were fake, were enough to make me their biggest SR.

Idk how I feel about this progression tbh.

I do still feel Klick's progression on me is iffy though and I still can't really see any good partner to fireisred except T3.

[DragonEater70]

I am giving this game way more time than I ought to

That being said I am going to continue my train of thought right now

I feel Klick's approach to this day phase is not really in line with how I think town!Klick plays at all. Like his attitudes from the end of last day to now look more less like this:
"Dragon is my top / very strong TR"
"Dragon's lack of NK speculation pinged me so I am going to forget about my TR and question him"
"Dragon is scum because he isn't answering my question and because he is tunneling me"
"why should I unvote you, dragon?"
"okay let's explore other options"
"I'll vote fire without explanation"
"I don't think DV or Dragon are scum and I'm meh about fire. Also I don't want to think about Dragon's alignment"

Note how he didn't explore Appearance, or even tried to find fireisred as town or tried to solidify a scumread on him before placing a vote.

Like I could see why a town player could be frustrated with this day phase because I am very frustrated with it, but I just don't think this is a frustration town!Klick has from seeing his reaction to TvT's in previous games. And the complete lack of engagement in the last few real life days is concerning to me becasue I also don't think that's something I see often from town!Klick. On the other hand he did imply that there is something IRL that annoyed him a few days ago so idk if this is significant.

And I am not really expressing my problem with Klick's progression as well as I'd like to, so let me try to put it more concisely: the emotional reaction feels off, the overall thought process is severely lacking (not necessarily because it doesn't exist but because Klick hasn't posted it), and the progression from me to fire feels too convenient, almost as if DV asked him to switch in the scum PT (which DV did do in-thread btw).

BUT what gives me serious pause is that I agree with implo's assessment that IDK if scum Klick is good enough and has enough energy/WIM to lead the coalition.

[DragonEater70]

Another thing that bothers me is that Klick ignored several questions I directed at him, such as what conclusion did he reach by looking at the game through various different lenses.

[DragonEater70]

All of which is to say that I actually have no idea who is scum here

Like I want Klick to be town and fire scum so that my page 6 solve can be correct, but I also want fire to be town and Klick scum so I could have this epic narrative of breaking out of a tunnel and catching the scum that pocketed me

And I am not saying this in a flight of fantasy way, I do actually feel like my read on both slots is colored by these desires which make me struggle in being objective.

I guess that's part of why it's called a *social* deduction game

Anyhow

Does anybody not named fireisred or DV has any insight regarding all this.

[DragonEater70]

why don't you want DV's thoughts

Idk

I feel like I heard your thoughts and his more than anybody this day ohase and I want to hear other people's.

[DragonEater70]

Basically I think assuming this round will be a miss is a pretty reasonable approach at the moment

This is what makes me feel so annoyed

[DragonEater70]

1230 is just completely off from a town's viewpoint. If she doesn't know who to elim she shouldn't be defaulting to herself as town, she should work to find who to elim. Like how is a miselim on town!fire going to help us figure out the scum. Specifically they say "if everyone knows there's confirmed scum in Klick/Dragon/App then it'd be easier to figure out the scum there" but wouldn't it be confirmed to town!fire that there's scum in us and yet they're struggling?

i mean basically because i agree with this:

I think fire scum viability is high here, and regardless I think eliminating him probably does the healthiest thing for the gamestate if we miss compared to other options

i think if we're wrong elsewhere we just lose. but if people see that they're wrong on me then maybe they can sort things out

im struggling because i have a hard time figuring out who is scum when most of the thread suspects me. this is an issue i run into often as town it's not a new thing

How can I vote you when you say things like this though

[DragonEater70]

Basically I think assuming this round will be a miss is a pretty reasonable approach at the moment

This is what makes me feel so annoyed

I don't think I am being immature by saying that I DON'T WANNA MISS, and I am annoyed people take missing for granted, and I just want to fucking solve the game and feel good about solving it but I can't

[DragonEater70]

why don't you want DV's thoughts

Idk

I feel like I heard your thoughts and his more than anybody this day ohase and I want to hear other people's.

I literally forgot how to grammar.

I feel like I've heard your thoughts and his more than anybody else's this day phase, and I want to hear other people's thoughts as well.

[DragonEater70]

Wow happy birthday Klick (I guess in UK there's still 1:30 hours but I'll be definitely be sleeping by then)

[DragonEater70]

Like I could see why a town player could be frustrated with this day phase because I am very frustrated with it, but I just don't think this is a frustration town!Klick has from seeing his reaction to TvT's in previous games.

i am confused by this take because i don't think Klick's perspective here has been that it is a TvT so im not sure why you're making that comparison

Klick is currently not voting me and in fact last time I checked said something to the effect of "I agree that if fireisred is not scum then the team could be Dragon/DV, but I don't think either is scum", while around the same time he did mention not wanting to think about my alignment etc.

So that's what I mean when I say he's being frustrated by a TvT.

[DragonEater70]

Just to clarify, I am saying that Klick has been acting like he thinks Dragon/Klick is TvT, not Klick/fire or Dragon/fire or some other interaction.