Open 720: NOIR (GAME OVER)

[Sando]

VOTE: Korina

Obv part of team-yellow with the duckling and CJ.

[Sando]

IN Ireland im Tirty tree and turteen minutes...

Wait really? Lol I'm 1 day older than you

[Sando]

Happy Birthday for yesterday!

Happy Birthday for today, you youngster you.

[Sando]

Is that also a reaction test?

When everything is a reaction test, nothing is.

[Sando]

Ayy Sando I just noticed you're Aussie, me too!

Awwwww shiiiiit, hells yeah, does this mean I'm part of yellow group now?

[Sando]

I have some feels on some of the players who have posted so far, but keeping those gut reads to myself for the time being.

This feels like you are trying too hard.

VOTE: Fast

I'm putting scum in these two for now, don't like either side of this equation. This reads as weak an approval seeking from Quick and a bit of an opportunistic pickup from mutant, followed by a vote elsewhere.

I normally like townhunting, but Quick seems to be doing it on fairly dubious grounds and hasn't backed it up reasonably when questioned. Weak townhunting is an easy place for scum to hide and I dun like it.

Yay end of RVS.

VOTE: Quick

[Sando]

Can we all take a moment to talk about how great Sando is?! First townrea

Care to elaborate on this?

He townreads me...but he still needs to give me the D

No but seriously, I have a few questions:

@Korina - Why is an apparent incorrect assumption about scum daytalk not a townslip instead of a scumslip?
@Fumuki - Are you serious about conf!town status? If so why?

mutant strikes me as Town from his interaction with Fumuki.

[Sando]

How strong is your devle townread?

Not strong, and it's basically because I think the 100% opposite of what Quick just wrote. That post from mutant struck me as townie as hell, the reason I'm not stronger townreading is due to previous tryhard in RVS stage as mentioned when I voted Quick.

[Sando]

Sorry you two, I disagree, but one thing occurred to me: mutant's reaction is not that of someone who's played with Fumuki before, if he has then I'd say he's probably setting it up as a mislynch. That said, if he hasn't, this strikes me as a townie respond.

Played with = scum
Not played with = town

I haven't had coffee yet and been picking up after my new puppy since 7...I'll investigate my above later today.

[Sando]

Also omg new puppy<3 what breed? Is it adorable?

I would say yes (Border Collie):

Spoiler:

How do you read Quick?

Scumlean - follow up post just now strikes me as bad too. Elaborated below.

I might be slightly biased because I'm used to bleeding heart town devle. I'll consider it.

What's his bleeding heart look like? I will admit to a) my scumreads day1 being preeeetty bad, my townreads are significantly better than my scumreads, and b) I suck/hate meta reading, but I townread ya so I'll listen to it from you.

Your reason for voting me is pretty weak. You're trying to say that it's Scummy of me that I didn't want to explain my TRs on people when I said I had some gut TRs on 2/3 of the first posters (Korina being one of them that developed into a stronger read) That I explicitly said I didn't want to explain.

You mean on page 8 I don't have the strongest of scumcases? Ya don't say? We go with what we got. Yes, I'm saying giving TRs or SRs that are weak and without reasoning is scummy, it's a way for scum to look like they're doing something but not actually doing very much at all. Saying "you asked me for reasoning but I said I dun wanna" doesn't exactly change my opinion of you. But good to know that if I'm ever scum against you and you ask me for justification, "I dun wanna" is apparently an acceptable response to you.

[Sando]

So my view on mutants 149 is that it's a big over-reaction but that he's ostensibly right. For both of those reasons I give him townpoints.

a) He's aggressive but over-reacting, this is a hard thing for scum to pull off sincerely.
b) I think he's genuine about why he wants to policy lynch and he's also right that Fumu is posting a load of shit.
c) He's pissed, which is a townie thing to do, scum would not be frustrated with Fumu!town, they'd be a bit confused and standoffish, they're not going to get involved like mutant did in the way that he did.

Having said all that, it's an over-reaction from mutant and his points are largely overblown by him, ie I don't really like his case, but I think he's townie.

Also, @mutant, stop PR hunting and theorising, that's another policy lynch subject day 1.

[Sando]

I dont consider myself good at meta reading but ...... the vibes man. This is a good place to start fmpov

Oooook, I see what you mean, not what I was expecting from "bleeding heart" but yeah, different. Ima stop TRing mutant for now, but I'm gonna need more here before SRing him. I shant be discussing what I liked/disliked about that game to this for obvious (dun wanna coach) reasons.

That said:

@Mutant

- You spent all of the linked game, Open 711 scumreading or trying to policy lynch Not_Mafia, and he was in fact scum in that game. Why are you completely ignoring him here AND calling for a separate policy lynch?

[Sando]

I see them being genuinely frustrated and passionate later in the game or when being strung up, but that's not fake frustration this early in the game, imo. I just don't see scum getting frustrated at someone not being scumread 8 pages in, well 6 at the time.

That said, why isn't a town mutant going after N_M? Why isn't scum mutant going after town-N_M? I would expect in anything other than S+S for mutant to have come in here with a clear lynch-N_M agenda. And no, mutant aint a vig, I shant say why.

[Sando]

I think this post is "ostensibly" wrong at every turn. According to your logic I should be SRing you for that, since for some reason being ostensibly right is somehow AI as Town.

Yeah sure, go for it, have fun with that while you ignore my post actually directed at you.

[Sando]

I think this post is "ostensibly" wrong at every turn. According to your logic I should be SRing you for that, since for some reason being ostensibly right is somehow AI as Town.

Also if the most you've gotten out of my discussion with the worst about you and mutant is "Sando says ostensibly right is town AI"...you're not making much of an effort.

[Sando]

M8, you need to get outside of this site. Your methods for reading people are horribly outdated.

I've been getting that a lot since coming back, and they're not wrong, my reads haven't been the best. Everyone who's said it to me has had worse reads than mine though, so whatchya gonna do?

Well avoided, again.

[Sando]

He's an ultra vet and you are judging him way WAY too quickly.

You may want to dig into my past a wee bit deeper than the little date next to my name. My last game before this year was back in 2012, there's a reason I've got a very old join date and no-one knows me.

Also I'm a very easy town read, you're just desperate not to read me that way.

On the N_M policy lynch, so I'm semi-serious on the N_M / mutant team due to (lack of) interactions despite previously linked game. Despite N_M being null, I'm tossing up whether lynching N_M today is useful given decent chance he gets policied anyway and we get info on mutant, or vice versa, mutant flip gives us at least something non-troll on N_M.

[Sando]

As either alignment, mutantdevle looked for that post by fumaki and was then annoyed when he found it was a troll post. If he had played with fumaki, that was scummy because he should have expected the troll. If he's scum, he realizes it's a troll because he knows fumaki is town. He doesn't get frustrated like that. So if he as never played with him, he is either town, or superb at hitting the right notes.

Yep, sheeping the better expressed sheep of me. Did we ever discover if mutant has played with fumu before? I've finally gotten people out of house and puppy asleep so I can dig into that now.

[Sando]

@Sando, Why didn't you address 211?

Address what? You haven't asked me anything and you don't appear to understand the meaning of the word "ostensibly". As an example:

In the absence of not knowing if we have a vig or not, we should act as though we do NOT have a vig. So what is ostensibly right about this exactly?

Ostensibly: as appears or is stated to be true, though not necessarily so

Seems to me that saying "we can deal with this with a Vig" appears to be true, but is not necessarily true. What part ISN'T ostensibly right about this?

Sorry M8

No worries, all is forgiven.

Don't mix PL and reads. Either PL or don't. Don't mix the two.

Meh, the logic is out there, agree with it or not, don't try to lecture me without addressing the actual logic. I also literally said "I have no read on N_M".

[Sando]

Who do you tr

Quick can be town for now. Bad town, but town.

UNVOTE: Quick

[Sando]

sando - He and I independently arrived at the same conclusion about mutantdevle, at least until Sando did the meta read through

You disagree with the meta read, or just not a big meta read kinda guy?

[Sando]

people I don't really want to lynch atm are currently
the worst, Quick, Sando, mutantdevle, ceejayvinoya, Fumuki

therefore we've got 12 irl days to lynch somewhere in
pinturicchio, Spartan117, Alonzo, Iconeum, Oxy, Not_Mafia, Korina

My not-lynch is shorter than yours, but there's no-one in your lynch list that would be in my non-lynch list, so I'm cool with that. CJ doesn't deserve not-lynch status and Fumu...well I guess in a heads v tails I'll give not-lynch, but I'm not happy about it. Not happy about it I tells you, not happy!

[Sando]

sando - He and I independently arrived at the same conclusion about mutantdevle, at least until Sando did the meta read through

You disagree with the meta read, or just not a big meta read kinda guy?

Just haven't gotten around to it yet, so it is not factored in.

Fair cop, I got drunk instead of investigating the player history, so I guess that one's on me tomorrow IRL.

[Sando]

I'm not ignoring him, I am just yet to engage him.

Yeah...but the ling of ducks linked me to a very recent game where your third post was calling for a PL on N_M...where he ended up being scum. "I've learnt he's fun to play with" given it was Open 711 I believe, ie not very long ago, doesn't really strike me as a rational position.

To my mind, if I've legit run a PL against someone day 1, and been mislynched myself (I believe this is true?) day one, and then it turned out that yes that guy was scum and won the game...I'm not turning up to the next game with that person all fine and dandy and "I've learnt they're a really fun player".

Is there a game in between that has caused this change of heart? Cause I'm just putting it out there, I don't buy that someone mislynched as town D1 over their PL target, who turned out to be scum AND won the game, is going to rationally come to that change of heart.

Basically:

Since then, I've played more games with N_M and found him genuinely enjoyable to play with/watch play

Gimmi.

[Sando]

people I don't really want to lynch atm are currently
the worst, Quick, Sando, mutantdevle, ceejayvinoya, Fumuki

therefore we've got 12 irl days to lynch somewhere in
pinturicchio, Spartan117, Alonzo, Iconeum, Oxy, Not_Mafia, Korina

My not-lynch is shorter than yours, but there's no-one in your lynch list that would be in my non-lynch list, so I'm cool with that. CJ doesn't deserve not-lynch status and Fumu...well I guess in a heads v tails I'll give not-lynch, but I'm not happy about it. Not happy about it I tells you, not happy!

Wait, ling of ducks, lets move Oxy into the "posts good enough stuff that we'll get a fine read in subsequent days" catagory, and not lynch him today. Swap him for CJ mmmk.

[Sando]

What's your read on me @sando?

Null to slight scumlean at the moment, you're low on the lynch list, but my non-lynch club is more exclusive.

[Sando]

VOTE: Oxy

Ok, well, if you're not gonna say, then I'mma vote you until you do because that seems really scummy, lbr.

Reasons could mean he's still waiting to see an expected outcome from the person, as a one of this is NAI, it's only AI over long term.

Also what do you think it means in terms of Oxy's link to that player?

[Sando]

Why CJ?

I'm looking at it that you should justify CJ into town, all I'm saying is he hasn't earned town-status for today imo, not that he's scummy.

[Sando]

Not-lynch - Duckling, quick, Fumu, Sando, Oxy

Would lynch - Pintu, Spartan, Alonzo, Ico, CJ, N_M, Korina

Unsure - mutant

[Sando]

@sando same question to you. =)

Wait who what now? What's the question?

[Sando]

It was in the quote... Could you point me to the posts that make you think [duckling] is town?

It's mostly the strength of his town-reads, and he's taken controversial positions that even if I don't agree with I like the forcefulness of his anti-groupthink. His views are well thought out and expressed, combined with a laissez faire attitude it strikes me as town. He's not locktown to me yet but he's done more than enough to make my D1 non-lynch list.

[Sando]

114 is probably the first strong townread of the game.

165 is a strong push against a quick wagon who had one of his townreads already on it, this is what I'm getting at with anti-groupthink

His clarity and laissez faire attitude don't really have any specific post, it's more of a trend than any particular post.

I'm gonna leave it there, Oxy what are you trying to gain through this interaction?

[Sando]

So you're town reading him for giving a town read without explanation in a confident fashion?

No I'm saying a confident town-read early in the game is anti-scum. Scum don't want to clear people, and they don't want to put a spotlight on their scumpartners, the easiest and simplest way to do this is to say little of note about them. One of the hardest and probably most dangerous for scum ways to do this is to give confident townreads.

asking them for the posts that make you look town is an exercise to both to help me sort you, and to continue building my reads on them.

Got any conclusions there or are we just gonna keep playing the questions game and pretend you're contributing content?

[Sando]

I'm sorry. It's difficult to build conclusions from questions until people answer them.
So far I've concluded that this portion of your read doesn't seem valid.

I'm surprised at your reaction to my questions since you are town reading the duckling and he's been giving a master class in questions without content.

Lol

So I've provided links to duckling providing fairly strong content, I even characterised him as providing the first strong townread of the game and articulated why that's townie. Then when I imply you're not providing content you disregard the posts that you specifically asked for and make a naked assertion in direct contradiction of me.

Secondly, proving towniness through evidence is incredibly difficult and rare, given it's typically a bunch of good actions followed by a lack of evidence of bad actions. Proving a negative is incredibly tough to impossible, so if you want to show me why I'm right you have to at least make an effort to prove the positive, in this case that duckling is scum. You haven't done that, you've blindly asserted I'm wrong and ignored the posts that you specifically asked me to provide.

After all that, you go out of your way not to make a read...on anyone.

VOTE: Oxy

Apologies for my list before duckling, but I'm still not putting CJ into my townlist.

[Sando]

This is bunk because
a) there's really no downside to having a strong town read D1.
b) wifom
c) if it becomes convenient to try and mislynch/bus, there will be more recent posts to allow changing a read
d) there's not actually any evidence that he held you as a strong read at that point
e) wifom

K...

a) Yes there is, I said why
b) K
c) really? If duckling turns around now and says "gee Sando your attack on Oxy is deserving of a lynch" you're not going to be a little suspicious?
d) he expressed it and continues to back it up, that's kinda what we're looking for here.
e) K

And this is bunk because the vote was based on a potential town slip being misunderstood to be a scum slip (or a reaction test, w/e) and the only reasonable view from either alignment is that the vote was bad.

So yeah, my conclusion from this exercise is that I should be very careful to check your work before sheeping any of your reads, even if you end up conf!town.

So hang on, duckling points out why someone was wrong (and you agree he's correct), but I'm wrong to think that gives him townpoints?

I've also specifically stated that my scum-reads are pretty bad, I'm not asking anyone to sheep me on them.

[Sando]

Oxy, I get the feeling from all of this that you're determined that nothing can be a towntell or be a reasonable basis for reading someone town. I both disagree with that and find it independently scummy. I also find it particularly scummy in the context of trying to get me to prove a negative.

[Sando]

c) I'm assuming a halfway decent ability to bullshit in your average scum.

So what you're effectively saying is that it's just as easy for a halfway decent scum to wind-back their strong town-read as it is to wind back their weak town-reads?

[Sando]

If there was a really good thought process, it would have helped me solidify my town read on you, and potentially help me sort the duckling.

Rofl so none of the stuff I've talked about are towntells, but a good thought process would be...righto mate. Pretty sure my thought process is the same whether I'm town or scum,

Also dis:

c) I'm assuming a halfway decent ability to bullshit in your average scum.

So what you're effectively saying is that it's just as easy for a halfway decent scum to wind-back their strong town-read as it is to wind back their weak town-reads?

[Sando]

oh yeah, no, I was not making that statement.

but at the same time I wouldn't say that reversing a strong read is inherently scummy. New information can and should be able to change people's opinions.

And scum can take advantage of that. Why not?

Ok, so you're saying that:

a) It's harder for scum to wind back a strong townread than a weak townread
b) There's zero reason for scum not to give a strong townread

You can see why I find that a little odd maybe?

[Sando]

Give me a break. The wifom case for giving a strong town read under this assumption far outweighs any strategic disadvantage that comes from town binning a single player. This is especially true when some percentage of the time that strong town read is actually a scum partner.

No...you asked me for why I'm townreading someone and then characterised what I said as not being a towntell due to "there's really no downside to having a strong town read D1".

There's a big difference between "there's no reason" and "the pros roughly equal the cons". That says there's plenty of reasons and they offset

[Sando]

This discussion has gone down a rabbit hole of theory and wifom, and no longer seems productive to me, so I am going to stop participating in it.

Ata boy

[Sando]

I'm feeling pretty good about the way Oxy is handling the pressure.

Ignore the pressure from me and duckling for a second, what's the town motivation for the desire to go after someone's town-read like Oxy did?

Do you find it odd the forceful desire for others reads and his judgement of them, when his read of Vivi as town due to "reasons" was defended with this:

Reasons mean reasons I can't, or will not, give. I kind of thought that was obvious..

Also: Vivi is CJ right?

[Sando]

Sando I know WIFOM etc. but do you think scum would actually do that? Given the flakiness of his reads I can see it coming from town or scum equally.

You mean the denigrating someone's TR or "reasons". I agree on "reasons", I'm just using it as context for "this is odd", so I'll address denigrating TRs.

TRs pose no threat to a townie, they pose a threat to scum, because if they become accepted the scumhunt pool gets narrowed, and if allowed to continue then the pool becomes small enough to allow for a reasonably easy town win.

If I'm a townie, I'm only looking to go after someone's TR is I'm pushing to lynch that person they're TRing. In that situation, I'm going to look to convince you of scumminess, rather than go after their actual TR and insist they "prove it". For example, me and you on mutant early this game regarding his current play vs meta. But unless I think your TR should be a SR and lynched, I'm not going to make more than a passing comment on it, because I really don't care that you and me don't share a TR perfectly.

In short, I don't see a townie reason to go after a TR like that unless he wanted that person lynched, and he seemingly didn't.

If I'm scum, especially in a 2 faction game like this, if I see a townie TR another townie, there's a few issues happening. If it becomes accepted and reciprocated then a town-bloc can start to form and now scum is screwed. I can either try to get into the town-bloc or I can look to break it up. Going after the TRs are showing that they're bad is one way to attempt to break up a potential bloc.

In short, scum do have a reason to go after a TR beyond just trying to get that person lynched.

What's muddying this for me is he went after my TR when I was also arguing for his towniness. Scum playing their cards right (ie not what he did), would probably prefer to get into a town-bloc than stick their neck out to hurt it.

Then again maybe they're either and never considered a town-bloc and just decided to pick a fight.

[Sando]

He's an unashamed troll and he's beautiful.

He is literally unreadable, literally naked lolhammers at will as either alignment, etc., etc. I'm also jealous because I'm not as cool as him so yeah

At what point does playing with someone who basically never posts become fun?

[Sando]

Oh shit, they're multiplying

[Sando]

He's not a troll just an occasional minimalist.

This has gotta be one of my favourite descriptors ever

[Sando]

Also, that's not a naked vote. It's a pressure vote on mutant to explain my question on the previous page.

Fair, to give him credit he was pretty good with responding to me, so we'll see.

[Sando]

Against the background of these posts is the Mutant/Sandro/Worst interactions. There are a few who are running away in the post cout that i need to analyse further, but i think (and others have seen it too)

there some AI reads coming from one player in particular there.

I'm assuming this means the worst now that you're on him. What's the AI reads from the one player in particular here?

Of the top 4

Top 4 what?

When its appropriate to , yes

Why is it appropriate here, specifically why is it appropriate not to read the game?

[Sando]

as I said before I'm just assuming Alonzo is going somewhere here because his catchup post is dreadful

The catchup post was fine/good, but the conclusion was just out of nowhere. There's a vague 1/3rd mention of you, some good reads on the interactions early in the day and some decent scum reads I felt...then he votes you. That doesn't make sense to me.

Of the top 4

Oxy Null town ++
Devle Null town +
Quick Null town (strong)
The Worst Null scum ++

This is terrible, the catchup post was fine. Feels like he's pulled out the top 4 post-count (lol?) people and just insisted there must be scum in there.

[Sando]

Are you trying to get the topic off duckling by any chance? It's pretty obvious what Alonzo was doing if you bothered to read one of the very few posts he made.

Don't be stupid, I'm asking for his actual case ON duckling.

[Sando]

Ok, and the case on the worst is? Seems like 213 and 218 are the extend of it?

[Sando]

extent* even

[Sando]

Taking Questions for an hour or two before bed.

Did you not consider that "hey what's the actual case for the person you're voting" might be one of those questions?

[Sando]

this might take a while due to my poor edit-fu, but if you wanna whip up a top 5 townposts of the worst in the meantime, il be sure to give it a read.

Lol nah mate, this just says you haven't read the thread well enough if you're asking me for my town-read justification on duckling.

For everyone else, reread Sando 523 in light of Alonzo. The difference between Oxy and Alonza is fairly stark and falls exactly down what I'm trying to say about scum motivation vs possible town motivation. Alonzo isn't interested in proving me wrong just to destroy a TR of mine, he wants to lynch duckling, an admittedly noble goal. Oxy just sets out to destroy someone's TR without getting in there with the lynch and scum-reads.

@Quick - That post is also why your 582 is weak.

[Sando]

Ahhh all my talk about making a bastard of the logic sando and you want to prejudice a debate that hasnt even taken place yet.

I suspect that you have only a thin read on town Worst and dont want me to puncture the bubble maybe, i dont really understand #646, i reread 523# but thats a bit of a trainwreck too.

Are you saying that im scum with Oxy? Or just scum alone?

Oh cool, you're saying you should be ignored, good to know.

[Sando]

I've obviously changed my view on Oxy now though

[Sando]

but then you scum read me for dismissing your read without explanation - fair, enough.

523 explains why I read you as scum, I've explained the town motivation and the scum motivation in my eyes for what happened. Alonza has now shown a good example of the town motivation one for it.

If people want to argue my motivation logic is wrong, great, that's why it's there. But at the moment we're just arguing about what happened, not the motivation behind it.

[Sando]

Okay, cool, so you refused to psychoanalyse people based on motivation and are just going to stick to "the facts." Good luck with that.

What the actual fuck? I literally posted what I believe is the motivation for scum vs town and you want to tell me I'm refusing to engage with motivation? Sando 523

Just how much of an idiot are you?

[Sando]

You can ignore the first half, it's pointless.

vague.

Duckling was the complete opposite of vague there.

Gimme One more read? for the road

The basic thrust of the argument from what I can gather, that duckling is constantly asking/demanding reads whilst providing few of his own. That's a reasonable point, but it's lost in the wall-post.

I read Alonzo as town.

[Sando]

You make a VERY fatal error in your theory though (and it is a theory): you assume people are "rational."

Right, so you're saying it's capitalism and market economies, good theory but relies on everyone being a rational actor.

But it seems like:

Rationally town should not

be going after someone elses TR

Rationally scum may need

to go after some elses TR

Town are sometimes irrational so therefore in any situation where ^bold occurs it's NAI.

This is why I townlist rather than scumlist, town are idiots and do stupid shit that is anti-town and pro-scum. So what I'm saying, the natural and logical reaction to your above being right is...to townhunt, and trying to sabotage others townhunting isn't a particularly good reaction to you being right about people being irrational.

Fuuuuck that was circular from me. Basically I'm happy with what I've said previously, I'm much more often right about townies than scummies, if you don't want to scumread Oxy I don't really care, but saying I'm wrong without addressing the logic will get you tunnelled and ridiculed.

P.S. It's Oxy we're talking about

[Sando]

So this was a policy tunneling and ridiculing, then? Or do you actually scum read me?

No I ridiculed Quick, I've explained the logic behind my scumread on you, it's literally what I'm talking with Quick about right now...

[Sando]

Yeah, sure. But YOU are making the claim that people default to rational behavior. So for your interpretation to be correct, you need to show some solid evidence to back up that people default to being rational.

What I'm saying is that it's not rational for town to do what Oxy did, I think we agree on that? I'm then/now saying that the rational reaction to what you're saying (

everyone is sometimes irrational

) is to townhunt and not try to mess with others townhunting without specific cause.

Basically I'm saying it takes double-irrationality to do what Oxy did.

Yeah sure, all people are irrational at times, but there's got to be a cutoff at some point between irrationality and scuminess.

Isn't saying he's an analytical player basically saying they're a fairly rational player anyway?

[Sando]

And you didn't really address what I said except for a blup at the top of your post.

I'm not addressing the rest of your post since I'm fine with your premise, which I quoted, and the rest is basically you backing up that premise.

But agreeing that people are irrational creatures doesn't change my view:

Yeah sure, all people are irrational at times, but there's got to be a cutoff at some point between irrationality and scuminess.

[Sando]

^Close enough

[Sando]

Wait so now him pushing against my TR is, in fact, rational?

[Sando]

Wait so now him pushing against my TR is, in fact, rational?

You can make this argument if you want, but it's going to get pretty thick in here if you do.

Lol nah I don't really care, that was just a troll, this has gone way too far down the rabbit hole to be useful, and he's stated himself it wasn't a rational conversation. I'm comfortable with where I'm at, he's staying in my lynch list, and I've gotten out of this what I wanted.

[Sando]

Not-lynch - Duckling, quick, Fumu, Sando, Oxy

Would lynch - Pintu, Spartan, Alonzo, Ico, CJ, N_M, Korina

Unsure - mutant

Like...only my Oxy and Alonzo reads have changed, I've been pretty consistent here.

You seem awfully upset that I'm voting Oxy...

[Sando]

How on earth is Oxy the Scummiest person in the game when you have:
duck

NM
Spartan slot
Pin
Korina

This is also why I think this whole "zomg your TR is shit" thing is so stupid. There's 4 people right there that we agree should live in the lynch list, but you two would rather bang on for 10 pages about how one of my TRs might be wrong.

[Sando]

Talk to me about Ico, because I am actually tentatively TRing that slot rn.

Mostly "hasn't earned town status".

But beyond that, on reflection the interaction with mutant was off. At the time it made sense, but as mutant pointed out, there's really no need to vote-pressure him. Anyone properly looking at mutant watched the mutant/sando/duckling interaction and would realise that all you had to be was direct and you'd get an answer to your question. Felt like the vote was an attempt to look like he's doing something and that if he didn't vote he'd be seen as wishy washy and uncommitted.

Felt like a player realising they're not keeping up with the game and seeking to show that they're doing something. Didn't feel like a genuine effort from him.

[Sando]

I feel like this sort of thing is NAI.

Falling behind is yes, trying to be all "look guys I'm helping" gets into scummy territory, doing it with a pressure vote that this game has shown is unnecessary pushes it further into scum territory.

By genuine effort I mean that they actual care and are genuine about what they're saying/asking. It didn't feel like the pressure vote was a genuine attempt to get an answer and apply pressure, rather an attempt to be seen as doing something and get his name on the board.

[Sando]

Just when I destroy someone's reasons for being on a vote they are on and they don't reevaluate it makes me question their motives.

Lol

[Sando]

I feel like this sort of thing is NAI.

Falling behind is yes

, trying to be all "look guys I'm helping" gets into scummy territory, doing it with a pressure vote that this game has shown is unnecessary pushes it further into scum territory.

By genuine effort I mean that they actual care and are genuine about what they're saying/asking. It didn't feel like the pressure vote was a genuine attempt to get an answer and apply pressure, rather an attempt to be seen as doing something and get his name on the board.

Since when is effort AI?

What if I told you I was TRing Ico with their first post because it looked like they were trying to create content?

...ok fine, I'll stop talking to you, you're increasingly desperate to misunderstand basic english.

Quick: This sort of thing is NAI
Sando: Yeah falling behind is
Quick: Zomg since when is effort AI?!?!?!

Like what part of "

effort itself is not AI, the genuine nature of it is AI

" don't you understand?

[Sando]

I think you are bluffing a facade there M8

How does one bluff a facade? Are you trying for a new tautological saying there?

How about you nom me for Paragon if I catch the whole Scum team by EoD1?

Rofl yeah sure, I'm pretty safe there.

[Sando]

How on earth is

Oxy

Sando the Scummiest person in the game when you have:
duck
NM
Spartan slot
Pin
Korina

Kgo!

[Sando]

In b4 "It was a reaction test bro!"

[Sando]

What r ya hopin to accomplish wit dis M8?

you're increasingly desperate to misunderstand basic english.

[Sando]

You've seen me vote your buddy and then go back to NM.

Lol I left your original Oxy in there, no-one thinks you actually said it, chill Winston.

Yeah, I have, so answer the question maybe?

Is that a defence? How?

Defence of what?

Did you google tautology/tautological yet?

[Sando]

You really asking me to answer that? What would be the point?

Lol?

So it's reasonable to ask me why I'm voting Oxy right now when there's heaps of other scummy people, but it's unreasonable for me to ask you why you're voting me when there's heaps of other scummy people?

I know you don't like me Quick, I know you're annoyed at me using big words and having a different opinion on a few players than you, but you're not making a rational argument here, you're barely making an argument at all.

Why do you keep posting a massive photo into the thread?

[Sando]

I have zero problems with you on a personal level so no idea where this is coming from.

Well you haven't actually articulated a reason for voting me beyond "bluffing a facade", which makes zero sense.

Just providing a link to the dictionary definition in case you need it.

So you're not gonna answer the question then?

[Sando]

Pretty much all your arguments are based on a "reasonable" PoV and given people in general are NOT rational

Hahahahaha, you're definitely being nominated for funniest scumread.

So I'm too rational for you and that must be scummy. Righto.

[Sando]

Wait why do you scumread N_M then? He's about as irrational as they come apparently.

[Sando]

yo wtf is this game LOL. people throwing around slayers gambit, and no one having done anything to really find a wolf 10 pages in.

it's a good thing i've already found all the wolves.

Oh boy, you're in for some fun.

Wait, so are we, who who?!

[Sando]

NEVER EVER LYNCH:
quick, the worst

town: korina fumuki sando pinto

unsorted: random, not mafia

scum: devle, ceejay, alonzo, ice

Which one are you?

What's with Korina, where dat from?
What's with Alonzo, where dat from?

Have you fully caught up or is dis still half the game reads?

[Sando]

I'm super confused by the Quick + Oxy team here, it makes zero of the senses.

I'm cool with Ico.

VOTE: Iconeum

Momo I haven't seen your read on Oxy?

[Sando]

I think you froze. =/

Are you and Quick the same person?

[Sando]

Caught up: Oxy and Quick are still town, so Sando either needs to fuck off with that or lose his town status.

This is really, really funny in light of the last few pages of Mom and Quick. Also threatening someone about their townstatus like that is really, really stupid, especially in this instance.

Also:

there's an argument to be made for ONLY outing scumreads d1 (dont tell scum who to kill) unless your townreads get wagoned...[

snip

].... if you know you are often wrong with scumreads learn when to sheep people and that's that.

I'm voting the same person as you...

[Sando]

N_Ms recent activity with Quick strikes me as just picking a stupid obv!town that you know will jump at the bait you point out and get you into a pointless 1v1. Troll or scummy?

[Sando]

Porque no los dos?

Shit, I had not considered this...well played good sir!

[Sando]

It's also not a 1v1 when I'm townreading him

Semantics will get you everywhere.

[Sando]

I can make a wall on why it's terrible if necessary, but just look.

I know why it's terrible, as were his follow ups. Is it scummy though? If so, why?

[Sando]

I really will be low key surprised if town made 580, though.

626 was my initial read on it fyi.

[Sando]

@Alonzo Are you going to finish your case on the duckling, mate?

He did in 638 and 662

[Sando]

That's an ugly reads list dude. VOTE: mutant

Ok I get why it's an ugly readlist, and this isn't just for you but all voters of mutant if they want to use the readlist as evidence:
Why is it scummy?
What are the implications of it being scummy, is he implicating partners do you think?

Also, since when is looking at who is voting a wagon not something you should do?

This implies that you had just inspected the wagon against your read list.

Dis, why is this a bad thing? Hey people who I think are scummy are on the wagon...that makes me dubious. Why is that bad logic?

[Sando]

overarticulation, but i also forgot to mention wishy washy reads.

Ok what's the problem with over-articulation? I've deliberately tried to contribute to the general pace of the game in the idea that scum are going to struggle to keep up in a meaningful way...mutant hasn't, he's kept us quite nicely tbh. He responds in a once a day huge-post rather than sticking it out in real time, but that seems to be his style rather than a tactic.

His town reads are a lot worse than his scum reads imo. Quick is towniest to me, despite being...not very good, but yeah me, Oxy and Duck deserve 2nd teir townie at most.

Scumreads, I mean if they're easy mislynches then that's because people scumread them...Scumreading an easy mislynch is either a) townies seeing them in their natural habitat and reacting like normal or b) scummies knowing they're an easy mislynch and pushing that through. Why is this particular scumread on easy mislynches scummy? Sure you think Korina is obv-town, but I certainly don't, and there's been too many people this game who don't for you to think we're all scum. So what are you looking for to differentiate between (a) and (b).

[Sando]

This would be where I would say over-articulation isn't a problem with mutant per-se.

Overarticulation here too

[Sando]

I didn't post the above, but it literally says the games he linked so I'm not sure what links you're asking for

My 1060 lists two that I think are town that at least conform to this one in the overarticulating play-style. I'll admit to not being a good meta-reader, but I think it's reasonable to ask for more than "this conforms to his wolf rather than town" when examples are readily available.

[Sando]

No, I don't, explain it to me like I am 5.

Can you two seriously stop spamming the thread with this inane BS.

Quick, this is the convo:

Quick - when wagons are this fast they're typically on town
Mom - when wagons happen they're typically on town,

the speed of the wagon doesn't change that fact

He's saying the wagon being fast or slow does not change that wagons are more likely to be on town than on scum.

[Sando]

Oh, My experience says differently. See I come from playing on MU where they do this sort of Wagon analysis a lot. Why would a site (dedicated to Mafia) spend so much time on something that isn't indicative of alignment?

Cool, then say that rather than these inane arguments, disagreeing or agreeing with his analysis is what we want to see.

I personally agree with them that the speed of the wagon doesn't change the alignment possibilities of the wagonee, I think scum are just as likely to get quick-wagoned as town.

I do, however, think that the speed of the wagon says something about the people on it and off it. It's on process though so I'll leave that discussion til later.

The key thing here is:
a) Do you think the speed of the wagon is indicative of mutant?
b) Do you think the speed of the wagon is indicative of the voters?
c) Do you think the speed of the wagon is indicative of the non-voters?

Feel free not to elaborate on b and c, I won't for a while. But I think what's happening is you think (b) and (c) are "yes", and Mom is saying "no" to (a).

[Sando]

Right, so you're saying because the speed of the wagon indicates the voters contain scum, that means that mutant is less likely to be scum?

[Sando]

Sigh

I know NM. Foe list doesn't work in games

Seriously? Your next post is again, engaging Quick in stupid arguments that have nothing to do with this game and doesn't advance the gamestate at all.

[Sando]

I think there is exactly 1 scum in your top bracket. What say you?
Ur scumreading Oxy but are putting him up there because you want to save him for last because you love him. Correct?
You went from top townreading TW to scumreading pretty quickly. In your bottom bracket i'd be putting the 4-some of Mutant/Sando/Pintu/Alonzo.

So the top bracket scum is me you're saying?

Didn't like the scumread on the duck while voting someone else.

But you didn't like this from Quick?

Mmmk...

So, why me?

[Sando]

Notice how the hydra stops when im around?

That flip to eddie, the sudden list and long heartfelt speech, that didnt ring any alarm bells with you guys last night?

No that in particular, but I think there's scum in you two based on the last few pages...I just lean on it being you right about now.

[Sando]

This Vs sando is awful unless he 'knows' sando wont fully react.

I did react though.

Do you mean that's not a full reaction?

[Sando]

You called him a silly goose.

Then you went hey everyone what about NM

then when he gave you a swift back hand you flipped to me.

So yeah, maybe that underreaction is a tell, as well as the distractions after.

You what?

I voted Ico in 793

He "backhanded" me in 844

I called his backhand really stupid in 907

360 I said you were in my lynchable list.
Again in 400
I specifically call you out in 626
I read you as town in 673 in light of your duckling attack

I've since called you a 50/50 between Mom and you as good scum-potential. I'm still on Ico, I still like Ico, and the original flip on you was from lynchable to town, and then in light of your argument with Mom I've basically said it strikes me as SvT and I'm deciding which is the S and which is the T.

[Sando]

Whats my scum agenda? lynch momo?

Given you're on him, yeah that'd be a start...

What on earth were you hoping to accomplish with 1238 beyond a wallpost of quotes to make yourself look busy?

It says literally nothing has no annotations from you.

Are you honestly saying that me asking "it was terrible but why is it scummy?" is me flipping back to you?

I've said Quick is terrible-town repeatedly this game, "terrible" is not scummy from me without a fairly clear statement to that effect, especially in the context of actually asking whether someone else found it scummy and intimating that I don't...

[Sando]

You called him a silly goose.

Then you went hey everyone what about NM

then when he gave you a swift back hand you flipped to me.

So yeah, maybe that underreaction is a tell, as well as the distractions after.

Where's the bold bit in all that?

[Sando]

Quick

is obv!town

Duckling, Oxy, Mutant, Mom

I tend to read as a variety of strength of townleans, but they're contributing in generally townie ways and should not be today's lynch. Duckling is my strongest TR there, then Oxy, mutant and Mom bringing up the rear.

PK and CJ

I'm a very light townlean on, but they're not contributing a lot in townie ways so they're not in my non-lynch pool yet, I think they're a poor choice though.

Random and N_M

I scumlean on but there's not nearly enough for me to judge definitively.

Pintu

I scumlean on due to lack of constructive posting.

Alonzo

I'm currently fairly scumleaning on, I've flipped on this a few times so I'm currently mulling this one over.

Ico

I fairly definitively scumread.

[Sando]

then when he gave you a swift back hand you flipped to me.

Wait you're saying that N_M saying "it's not a 1v1 if I don't scumread him" is a backhand?

You do realise that this was my sarcastic response to him right? Why not quote that bit there Alonzo?

[Sando]

Have you looked at TW's scum game? He's actually a solid player, especially for his lack of experience. Like, that's the issue KTS had earlier. The one I've read is the newbie with Katy and etc.

I suck at meta-reading, I'll notice things (like mutant and N_M interactions) and call out issues like your (I dunno which one of you in that hydra) read on Mutants meta that I don't get, but I'm terrible at just blindly reading a meta.

What am I looking for in his scum-meta that differs from his town meta that I can look for?

[Sando]

Dunno. Agreeability etc. I just got a similar vibe to here, and when you realize his play as scum is good his iso here isn't actually great? Iunno. I was mostly asking because if you got a different conclusion (that he was still town here) then that's something to think about but if you have no conclusion on it then its mute.

I am certainly not meta-TRing duckling if that's what you mean, I have not read any of his previous games nor played with him.

Being good scum and his current reads being "meh" is basically saying his meta regarding those is null? Saying that this guy has the good ability to pretend to be town just says you should be careful TRing him, not that he's townie. Is he also actually good as townie, better than he is now? That would indicate scumminess to me.

Are you saying that he should be null-read due to meta or are you saying he should be scum-read due to meta?

[Sando]

Yeah I'm not newbie-reading him at all, nor am I reading him as a bad player. But as long as you're suggesting a null-meta I'm good with that, doesn't impact me.

I TR him as an experienced player who is a good player and purely based on this game, judge my read based on those assumptions about him, and do with my read what you will.

I also have zero interest in lynching him due to contribution. Not to say I TR him based on effort, but I like keeping people around who contribute to the conversation, since it's harder for scum to keep that up as the days progress. I look at contribution and think "yeah keep this up and if you're scum I think you'll make enough mistakes to stick out in time".

[Sando]

Hi! When did I stop being scum?

Recent interactions around 919 regarding Alonzo, felt very townie from you.

[Sando]

I'm going to bed, got a new gig tomorrow so gotta be sharp. Some thoughts:

a) Oxy's "case" was indeed pretty terrible
b) Duckling response struck me as "jesus dude, THIS is the town I've gotta deal with?!" - but then maybe I'm looking for that since it was my response to Quick. It did seem out of character from duckling though.
c) Pintu's "dun be toxic" is fine in isolation, but given some of the shade thrown around this game, I find it odd that this was what he decided needed attention
d) The overly placating (ok this is the wrong term, but he's kid-gloving duckling here) tone from Pintu strikes me as very odd as well
e) In light of mutants posts (and this is why I want to keep this fella around), Pintu is clearly capable of the level of toxicity he's accusing duckling of, which to be fair is not very high toxicity.

Overall, while I didn't like Ducklings response on a scummy scale, I'm probably biased from my Quick interactions which I felt were fairly similar so I'm not giving much AI points for it.

Pintu's reaction here really does not sit well for me, the effort put in not to actually make a judgement either way while also throwing toxicity charge at Duckling and nicely sneaking in the "this is Oxy's first real game" comment there...

Oxy was town making a bad case imo.

[Sando]

Bottom nm is meant to be quick. I c&p'd the player list and must have accidentally written nm rather than quick? Idk rly it aint that deep fam

Quick is in the second most scummy list? Wat?

[Sando]

yeah i personally apologize for not explaining so much. i'm sorta apathetic about this game because there's no one i really know personally that can get me interested in a game in here, and the thread is sorta nooby. no offense lol, but there's a lot of surface level reads to when i do provide an explanation it's met with level 1 play that i find hard to respond against. it's kind of like when a kid questions you about simple matters like why we brush our teeth and continues questioning it to the point where you give up and say "because i said so." lol, that's my meta, and i'm too used to people following me "because i said so" and hitting scum.

Ico is the top wagon atm, quit yer whining fella(s)! Let's do this!

Also more seriously guys, you've all just done a two-page complaint-athon about each other, can we do some scumhunting plx?

[Sando]

Well not complain about not being followed for one...

[Sando]

Lets go back to the part where i said 'why wont/aren't you voting the worst?'

Cause he's
a) Not scummy
b) Not today's lynch

[Sando]

697 was my original talk about Mutant and Ico

701 was my follow up

[Sando]

Nope, he's my top scummer. If anything he's gone up in scumminess for me, but also that's because some of my other reads have gone down in scumminess leaving him alone in the deep end of the scummy pool.

[Sando]

I see leadership potential in Ico tho which makes me think scum would want him slayed today.

Like I said 'wolves' dont always draw scum slots.

Town need strong methodical thinkers in this one and he looks like he has those.

@ Sando

What is this? Scum would want a good player lynched and therefore want Ico lynched and therefore wanting Ico lynched is scummy?

So basically wanting any "good" player (by what metric?) lynched is evidence of scumminess?

Nice shade without addressing the content or even actually stating that you disagree about scumminess there though, noted.

[Sando]

Who's voting Ico now?

Me, Mom and CJ.

[Sando]

Na sorry I think you were ok

Hydra + Sando + CJ + me + you
7 to lynch

Do not L-1 becauae Not_Mafia rofl

Yep, that's what my napkin maths says. Sando and Mom at VC top of 55, CJ page 55, now duckling makes 4, Alonzo would make 5. 7 to lynch.

[Sando]

Sando's defence of me

My what?

[Sando]

i am still here. not really feeling too well today, but i can offer that if ico flips town mutant and alonzo are spewed wolf.

I'm going with Alonzo as second most scummy regardless and most likely partner. What part of mutant says him being on Ico!town is particularly bad?

[Sando]

i am still here. not really feeling too well today, but i can offer that if ico flips town mutant and alonzo are spewed wolf.

I'm going with Alonzo as second most scummy regardless and most likely partner. What part of mutant says him being on Ico!town is particularly bad?

he never mentions ico in his iso but suddenly wants to hammer? thats always wolf motivated.

I've been known to have a lack of progression as Town because I am not always saying itt what I am thinking about...

I'm just asking for the part of the case on Mutant that is purely based on Ico!town flip.

Also, why are you talking about "if Icon flips this it means this about mutant" when you're clearly saying that I'm scum regardless of the flip? Don't try to force association tells on me when the associations clearly don't matter to you.

Because I asked him. Forced associations would be scummy, do you think he's doing that?

[Sando]

Yes. Right now, I feel like they're setting up Icon's flip so that they have reason to push me next regardless of what they flip.

Yep, it's been noted, but it's silly for us not to take into account the flips tomorrow. The fact that one of the OGs on Ico wants to run a townflip train on someone is definitely pinging me, but it doesn't change my desire to lynch Ico.

[Sando]

Wrong player bruv

No, You're on the wrong player.

Quick, cmon man, you're one of the more conf-town players in this game, let's actually make use of it and push people who are valid scumtargets please.

CJ - I personally don't think a Mom led scum kills the duckling, thoughts?

[Sando]

Mom's tunnel on mutant screams bad T, but he's removed the vote so I'll assume reaction test sort of thing and ignore the bad part.

pint random alonzo {your pick of a deepwolf or pk} would make sense to me.

I'm still keen on Alonzo, Random pings me but I haven't delved in there. Other than the Ico wagon, what's the goss on Pint?

[Sando]

@Sando Why Alonzo?

Because as stated yesterday you were my second most scummy going into night, nothing changed there.

That's also a terrible vote on Mom, Eddie aint wrong, especially his particulars.

[Sando]

@Sando Why Alonzo?

Because as stated yesterday you were my second most scummy going into night, nothing changed there.

That's also a terrible vote on Mom, Eddie aint wrong, especially his particulars.

So why are you handling me so different? Im now your number one scummer so vote me huh? And rally the troops to your cause...

Different from what? How I was on Ico at the end of Day 1, or different from how I was at the start of Day 1? The day has been open for like 6 hours, don't stress, there's plenty of time to lynch you yet.

Does rallying the troops to my cause strike you as a thing that I do, especially early in the day?

[Sando]

You seemed Very assured Ico was Scummy, but not as assured as you seem about me.

I think your scumread on me is faked.

Ahhh, so you're running the "Sando is scum" tack here, good luck with that. Why are you not voting me?

But just for the lols:
a) You pick me up for having suspicions of you but NOT voting you, and;
b) You think I'm more assured of you being scum than I was of Ico.

Yeah...those two make PERFECT sense together.

I've asked for more info from Mom on Pintu, forgive me for interacting with the riff-raff whilst I await that.

[Sando]

@Sando what do you wanna know from me?

Why Mom has you in his top 3, I was asking him, but hey if you know or want to pre-empt it then that's cool. Wasn't specifically asking you personally anything though.

[Sando]

@Sando and @Alonzo I want to believe you're both town and I'm willing to work with both of you so hit me up and let's make them juicy content.

You want to work with two people accusing each other of being scum?

Oh one last thing: are we not gonna judge Not Mafia for lolhammering just because he's Not Mafia? He lynched with no claim and our cop is dead now so we can't sort him with a PR

VOTE: Not_Mafia

I'm down for policy lynching N_M today and today only. If we're lynching him, it should be today. A vote on him is going to replace my 'not voting' for today.

VOTE: devle

Stop being difficult, it's not as terrible an idea as it first looks. We didn't get a vig, so I presume we have a tracker, and we have a pretty piss-poor excuse for an investigator in the hider left. This means we don't get an out on N_M, we gotta deal with him at some point.

Also Mom, why Pintu in your 3 person list?

[Sando]

Uh, yeah? I want to townread you both, I don't care what you think about each other, I want to sort the rest.

Righto, townread me at your leisure! Re-read Alonzo+Quick last few pages today with the assumption that:

Sando is town and thinks Quick is terrible-town

. Read my interaction from 1603 to 1607. Notice the:
a) Basically sheeps Quick, he provides basically zero justification for calling me scum beyond it "feels" different to my Ico push,
b) Doesn't actually back it up when I push back and,
c) Only soft-calls me scum by saying my read is fake.

To me this strikes me as a planned "sheep Quicks bad SR on Sando day2", thoughts?

[Sando]

I'm not going to get into a wallpost war, points get lost way too easily and it just comes off as impossible for anyone else to read. So:

a) You think 649 is my first mention of you and 673 my first read? Nope. 360 I confirm you're in my would-lynch list. 400 I outright list you in would-lynch. 626 I call your catchup fine but your conclusion terrible. And in 646 I laugh at you asking for my reasoning for TRing duckling when I'd only recently had the conversation with Oxy which you had clearly either ignored or missed. To take 649 without the context of 646 is just terrible from you, let alone ignoring everything I'd said on you before.
b) My reads on you went from would-lynch for lack of town-content, to scumlean for your catchup, to town-lean for your push on duckling, back to scumlean by the end of day for your pathetic arguments subsequent to that.
c) You still haven't voted me, bring it on or stfu.

Back to you Wolfman.

So why are you handling me so different?

Im now your number one scummer so vote me huh?

And rally the troops to your cause...

How about follow your own advice maybe?

d) These are hilarious together:

Now questioning why someone else wants to SR me.. looking for a way in..

@quick Why Sando?

You're bad at this and you should feel bad.

VOTE: Alonzo

[Sando]

Your case on Alonzo is

completely hollow

, which is a dead giveaway that you are Scum. There is just so much you ignore about Alonzo's play that I can't see how you

could be so oblivious to the Town tells

that Alonzo is laying down that it's not even funny.

I would have to dig into his ISO to get a firm grasp

of the stances he has made throughout the game. I know one of them was his stance on me which I didn't like considering I felt he was over justifying SRing me. Then when everyone else started to TR me, he also stated doing the same thing. Also There have been a number of logically unsound things he has stood for that I think more often come from Scum than Town.. Read my 1v1 with him to get more details on this. I also didn't like how he interacted with Duck.

God you're hilarious. The fact that you're welcoming him to your "towncore" because he's come into the day agreeing with your SR read (on a townie) is EXACTLY his plan. He's using you like a cheap hooker.

[Sando]

Uh, yeah? I want to townread you both, I don't care what you think about each other, I want to sort the rest.

Righto, townread me at your leisure! Re-read Alonzo+Quick last few pages today with the assumption that:

Sando is town and thinks Quick is terrible-town

. Read my interaction from 1603 to 1607. Notice the:
a) Basically sheeps Quick, he provides basically zero justification for calling me scum beyond it "feels" different to my Ico push,
b) Doesn't actually back it up when I push back and,
c) Only soft-calls me scum by saying my read is fake.

To me this strikes me as a planned "sheep Quicks bad SR on Sando day2", thoughts?

a)I Aint sheepin nobody.
b)Is this semantics again?
c)Your read is faker than Michael Jacksons Nose on Pamela Andersons Left titty.

So by All means continue to conspire Sando I'm gagging to hear the others thoughts on me.

Back to you Wolfman.

That was for Pintu, cause he wants to get involved in some scumhunting and I'm trying to get some discussion with him going. So shush please, town are trying to talk.

[Sando]

A little reaction test on Quick to make sure hes not shitposting. End of the Day its my Townblock, and quick only has a toe in the door so far.

How was his response then in 1640? What'd you think of it?

[Sando]

Sadly Momo doesn't play well with others and will likely consume my vote indefinately.

And FYI Sando, your only a null scum+ currently, dont act like this is end of days.

This screams BS to me, you're soft calling for a policy lynch on Momo yet using that as justification for me not being the top scummer.

I'm at a point Where IDRC if this flips town or not. Sad. Not how I usually like to play mafia but hey.

This does not scream "Mom is my top scummer" pick, yet you're voting Mom and seemingly using this as an excuse not to vote me since he's seemingly the only person you mention other than me.

[Sando]

Right. But niether of my arguements is deceptive. I just dont have enough votes to go round.

Ok, so you're saying Mom is most definitively your top scumpick at the moment?

A little reaction test on Quick to make sure hes not shitposting. End of the Day its my Townblock, and quick only has a toe in the door so far.

How was his response then in 1640? What'd you think of it?

Answer plz.

[Sando]

This push is so bad...

Shhh, adults are talking

[Sando]

@Sando If quicks cooking up a wall quicks cooking up a wall, i dunno what hes gonna say yet.
But I do believe he can probably make a case against you , so I take him at his word that he will. Then when it gets here it will go through scrutineering just like any and all other posts.

So...uhh...what was your reaction test trying to achieve? He eventually responded with a 3 line answer about how he could make a case but really he's gonna have to dive in more to do that. But you're happy to wait for him to actually make a case, despite no evidence that he's working on that, nor actually prompting him to do that outside of me now forcing you to say something?

Yeah...that doesn't strike me as genuine from you.

[Sando]

This implies you think I am garbage at this game. Hate to tell you this but I don't actually suck at this game. The baseless discredit is noted though.

Ok Quick, here's the thing...it's not just me that thinks that. There's quite a few players in this game that think you're bad at it, I'm just blessed with knowing it because I'm town and looking at your terrible logic for scum!Sando. Momo def thinks it, mutant I'm pretty sure does, CJ is calling you out on bad calls, etc etc. Notice that all of those people are basically ignoring your reads...there's one person currently using your reads and working their way into your confidence. Pretty much everyone except one person is calling you bad-town, and one person is taking you at your word...

You need some introspection to see this, but I think now that I've pointed it out the others might start to see just how weird it is for Alonzo to buddy up to you today.

So yes, I'm saying you're playing badly and your reads are bad, and I'm saying that scum!alonzo has decided to abuse that fact here.

[Sando]

You all need to learn to play nice with one another.

The insults have been cringe worthy all game.

Scum are going to take advantage of bad play, it needs to be called out.

I was trying to do my part to show that he was mislynchable so that maybe scum would try to get into a cc fight with him on day 2 rather than nk for the soft.

Now onto other things, our little tête-à-tête regarding my TR on duckling happened post soft-claim, and based on the above you noticed the soft-claim, why get into an argument for me TRing him?

[Sando]

Why doesn't it seem genuine? You realize saying something isn't genuine is like the easiest reason for Scum to make right?

Because his statement that "it's a reaction test" doesn't line up with a complete lack of interest in your reaction.

[Sando]

I don't see how that is a causation. Explain that.

Wat?

He said it was a reaction test to you, you reacted (eventually), and he's still waiting according to his own words. When you do a "reaction test" you're looking for a reaction. He can't actually articulate what he thinks of your reaction, merely kicks the can down the road by saying he's still waiting for your full case on me.

[Sando]

Oh, I thought he was reaction testing you.

A little reaction test

on Quick

to make sure hes not shitposting.

Like...if you want people to take you seriously, read the thread maybe?

[Sando]

Why doesn't it seem genuine? You realize saying something isn't genuine is like the easiest reason for Scum to make right?

So to further articulate this, he:
1) Asks for your reasons for scumreading Sando
2) Uses the fact that Sando asked someone else for their scumread on Ico to accuse Sando of scumminess
3) Sando points out the hypocrisy of 1 and 2
4) Alonzo claims his (1) was in fact a reaction test on Quick
5) When pressed on what he thinks of Quicks reaction he kicks the can down the road and says "quick hasn't posted his full wall"
6) Asks quick to actually post his wall, so he's now giving up on actually wanting to see your reaction and is now just saying "this is what you need to do"
7) Pre-empts even that reaction with "you can be townbloc"

5,6,7 is why I think it's not genuine, and I think he was forced into this predicament because I said 3.

[Sando]

Thats mostly not what happened.

Well I mean I put it right out there and it's only 4 pages according to you, it really shouldn't be too hard to show where I'm misrepresenting you and/or lying. What part of my 1692 is wrong?

[Sando]

1) Asks for your reasons for scumreading Sando

@quick Why Sando?

2) Uses the fact that Sando asked someone else for their scumread on Ico to accuse Sando of scumminess

Now questioning why someone else wants to SR me.. looking for a way in..

3) Sando points out the hypocrisy of 1 and 2

d) These are hilarious together:

In post 1645, Alonzo wrote:
Now questioning why someone else wants to SR me.. looking for a way in..

In post 1595, Alonzo wrote:
@quick Why Sando?

(This is poorly formatted, but it'll do)

4) Alonzo claims his (1) was in fact a reaction test on Quick

A little reaction test on Quick to make sure hes not shitposting.

5) When pressed on what he thinks of Quicks reaction he kicks the can down the road and says "quick hasn't posted his full wall"

@Sando If quicks cooking up a wall quicks cooking up a wall, i dunno what hes gonna say yet.
But I do believe he can probably make a case against you , so I take him at his word that he will. Then when it gets here it will go through scrutineering just like any and all other posts.

6) Asks quick to actually post his wall, so he's now giving up on actually wanting to see your reaction and is now just saying "this is what you need to do"
& 7) Pre-empts even that reaction with "you can be townbloc"[/quote]

In fact Quick , I dont want that list now, save it, keep it 24 hours, read it again. Take all the salty shit out from Sandos needling, then post it.

And you can be in my townblock.

7 in bold
&

your case on sando.

[Sando]

Everyone else townreads you sando, but you have made it superhard for me to townread you in this one.

Not particularly my problem tbh. I'm a pretty easy TR, admittedly I haven't scummed a finished game since coming back (this is not me saying I'm scum in any ongoing game), but I don't think I've ever made it to endgame as scum, although I've won as scum. Honestly I don't really care that you and Quick don't TR me, I have a problem when TRs like Quick don't actually use that to advance the game, and I have a problem when I see people seemingly taking advantage of an all-but confirmed TRs bad reads, which I think you're doing.

[Sando]

Yeah I know, I could be wrong about you, you're the player I'm having the most trouble to sort, I'll ISO you again and see if I can decide because you're useful as town

Oxy is pinging me for being "reasonable but not contributing", I haven't ISOd and done a number crunch or anything, but Oxy is striking me as spending most of his time basically telling others how to play the game ("oh be nice guys") type of posts without actually contributing to the hunt in any meaningful way.

Thoughts?

[Sando]

I was considering you could be Town until I read the red.. Then it kinda spoiled it for me.

Yeah, this is accurate.

Too funny

Iunno if it's a scumtell or not, I mean it'd made you the manipulator type of scum, and I think there's zero chance we don't have a lurker-scum with us at the moment, just a feeling I've been having.

[Sando]

(What I'm implying is: let's start putting pressure on the rest of the list)
VOTE: ceejay

Oh the Random/PK/CJ lurker-bloc I'd put CJ as lowest on my scumdar, why him specifically?

[Sando]

Of*

[Sando]

Not gonna lie, he was the first and only name that came into my mind, I forgot about the rest. I mean, PK has posted what, 6 times? Also you forgot Not_Mafia now that I think of it. And of course, mutant is still scum

N_M I'm not touching, people appear to have experience with him that I do not, but he's not doing a classic version of the Lurk, he's gone new-age troll-lurk and I have NFI what to do with that.
Mutant I'll agree doesn't look good from a scummy perspective, but I'm not lurker-lynching him, he's posted twice as much as any of the listed peeps for a start, and they've been meaningful posts.

CJ/N_M & Random just passed into prod range so we'll see what we're looking at with their inevitable "oh guys just looking at this, I'll reread and post later today" followed by another 24 hours of nothing and then "ok I haven't really had a chance to reread but let's go, any questions for me, what's been happening? Oh, duckling got NKd, no way?!".

[Sando]

are you saying that because I posted directly after Quick's post that I was responding to him?

Nah I'm laughing at Quick for saying he hates what I said only for it to be followed a few minutes later by the person my comment was about saying "yeah, what you're saying is right Sando".

Quick constantly thinking I'm too rational to be town is just giving me the giggles honestly.

[Sando]

Thanks for asking!

You're welcome

[Sando]

You're saying that him not asking you about - whatever - is a reason to scum read him. I'm saying it's not.

Is that an accurate representation?

He's saying that me not asking for others opinions is scummy. Which would be fair enough, if not for the below.

He's also ignoring the bolded part:

Oxy is pinging me for being "reasonable but not contributing", I haven't ISOd and done a number crunch or anything, but Oxy is striking me as spending most of his time basically telling others how to play the game ("oh be nice guys") type of posts without actually contributing to the hunt in any meaningful way.

Thoughts?

I'm assuming he's ignoring that cause he's...well I've been asked to stop insulting people, but you get the picture.

[Sando]

So when the worst died, I reread his ISO to check his reads, and surprise surprise, you were his suspect, and you were MY suspect on D1 since forever, so who would have known, I was right, you are scum.

My issue with this is:
a) It assumes Mutant is calling the shots on the scumteam, do we think that's likely and what does it say about his partners?
b) It assumes duckling wasn't PR hunted successfully, putting the NK as NIA for all.

[Sando]

In other news, we have a hider, and we should have probably done this yesterday, but better late than never. Should we all massclaim who we're gonna "hide" behind tonight?

Quick question though:

@Mod, does the Hide go off if the Mafioso Jailer targets them?

1) Scum can't stop themselves being hid behind (unless above is a "no")
2) Scum can kill two birds, but with a massclaim we're hiding the hider and makes that a crapshoot for them
3) We get some guilties/innocents later.

Problems:
Anyone claiming to hide behind a scum tonight that doesn't die is confirming themselves not the hider to them.

Thoughts? I'm not really up on how to use hiders for town advantage but this seems like one way.

Just by the by Quick, by "thoughts" there I've posed a very specific hypothesis for us to look at and I'm asking for thoughts on that hypothesis, that one, just above this.

[Sando]

Soloution: if the mafia then kill the hider, we can then use the fact that mafia knew people were lying to work out who the mafia team are.

Well the only way Mafia actually kill the hider is to NK the hiders target, at least I think so, waiting on Mod to see how dat jalier can mess with them. So if hider hits scum either of the next two nights then we get scum out of it, although yeah hider is ded.

Alonzo, yeah I can see it, although we're potentially 2 more townies down at that point, thus the mass-claim gives the hider less and less protection. Also I'm assuming you'd claim where everyone claims their N1,2 results and planned N3. Problem is there's a very high likelihood that scum can sort the hider due to the scum knowing that anyone who says a scum in their N1 and 2 results isn't the hider.

Basically I think your way we're hoping we get 2 conf-towns and have a very low chance of catching scum with the hider. I think my way we get 1 conf-town (assuming the hider hid last night) and a decent shot at scum or more town.

The other advantage to mine is I'd love to keep the mafias attention on the hider while our other PR can hopefully get some work done. I'm assuming at this point we don't have a vig since I'd imagine if they chose it they did it to kill N1 and that didn't happen (probably).

[Sando]

By the wording of the role PMs, no.

Cheers big ears.

Ok so the mafia options if they work out who the hider is:
1) If the hider plans on getting a scummer, they can jail them but not kill them
2) If the hider plans on hiding behind a townie they can kill the townie and doom both of them
3) They can fake us out by jailing the hider who plans on hiding behind a townie

All in all, if we could lynch the jailer the hider becomes a lot more powerful for us.

To me, this says that no, we're not doing my plan tomorrow, which is I think what Alonzo is suggesting. Too much chance that scum will know from massclaim who the hider is.

So we can:
a) Do Sando's plan
b) Just ignore the hider today and hope for two inno's tomorrow

I'm for (a) mostly because I'm awesome, but I think the problem with (b) is that there's a decent chance one or even both of those inno's are deadsies. The hider needs to then basically claim and unless we direct them onto a scum N3 then we're down two townies overnight.

[Sando]

Did anybody understand Random Midgets post or who it was aimed at?

He's claiming he missed the start of day PM and that's why he hasn't posted...then he didn't post any more.

[Sando]

To answer your question, and in addition to other reasons I have noted, it's a wierd assumption because you don't need to make any assumption as town to defend against this. You just point out the soft claim or his read on you.

I'm not following your logic here Oxy, and I've read this interaction between you and mutant very closely now.

Mutant gets accused of being ducklings main scumread and thus a reason for mutant killing duckling. Mutant points out that he was actually moving ducklings read away from scum towards town, so that argument about him should be invalid.

What's this about "assumptions" that I'm missing here? To me he did what you said, pointed out ducklings read on himself being null or even town.

[Sando]

Do you honestly take me for the kind of player that would selfishly want my team to spend a kill eliminating someone that threatens me and

me alone?

@Sando I think he's referring to this assumption in bold.

But again, this point was made because Pintu was accusing specifically me for killing the worst for scum reading me. He never mentioned the worst scum reading anyone else in my team, so I made the same assumption that no one else was involved.

@sando This basically sums up the point of contention. I believe it's a weird assumption for town to make when presenting a defense, he obviously doesn't.

Ok cool. To be honest it was part of my read of the situation though, so to me seems NAI, but apparently I'm too logical to be town so take that as it may:

So when the worst died, I reread his ISO to check his reads, and surprise surprise, you were his suspect, and you were MY suspect on D1 since forever, so who would have known, I was right, you are scum.

My issue with this is:

a) It assumes Mutant is calling the shots on the scumteam, do we think that's likely and what does it say about his partners?

b) It assumes duckling wasn't PR hunted successfully, putting the NK as NIA for all.

[Sando]

the worst was mislynchable, so I think he could had good early reads (note to the word EARLY please)

Duckling wasn't a particularly easy mislynch, especially compared to a bunch of other people in this game.

[Sando]

What is the point of NM if he doesn't even make jokes?

I was promised funny, not sure what's funny about lurking the entire game hoping for lolhammers.

[Sando]

@Sando

How do you like my play since we talked?

Scum don't act scummy 100% of the time. Your Quick push is...odd, but I'm happy to let that play out.

Too early to tell.

I'm much more interested in a PK/Random wagon than I am in a CJ/Mutant one, so I'm mostly just chillen atm.

[Sando]

@alonzo not sure what you want. Pisskop, NM, and Ceejay are all in need of prods.

Random is the definition or lurking, he picked up the prod and did literally nothing else. CJ was only slightly better. PK hasn't picked up the prod and is at 3.5 days without posting now.

[Sando]

Lurking isn't scum indicative, I'll be very hesitant in lynching there.

It makes towns job insanely more difficult, and the game significantly unfun to play, it's about as anti-town as you get, despite being NAI.

[Sando]

Funny enough, I already asked this back at post 157. Short answer is Hider isn't safe to out until the maf jailer dies.

Eh true, but difference today is we probably don't have a Vig.

[Sando]

If you read the thread you'll see it wasn't actually my idea I am just in support of it. Sando was in doubts though so I was going to explain how there is no way it couldn't not benefit us only to realise that my theory was wrong.

Still think my theory is right but feels like town are losing motivation due to some pretty rampant lurking going on, so they don't really want to deal with it. Not to mention it won't work without everything involved.

[Sando]

^No idea why Piss is in there, unless it's based on Korina slot?

VOTE: Randomidget

Seems like simply not playing is the new meta, can't say I enjoy it, but oh wells.

[Sando]

Then you have zero progression on me if you are SRing me because last I checked you were TRing me. Explain that.

Pretty sure he's just being an edgelord.

Sorry Alonzo, not lynching outside of the lurkers for now.

[Sando]

They probably get replaced anyways. Why are you so firm on lynching lurkers? Surely you saw Mathdino's update right? Like extra time is probably going to be added to the Day Phase. I don't get why you want to lynch them in spite of that.

Note that I said that I'm not lynching "outside" of the lurkers, not that I'm pushing either lynch "firmly" as you say.

I'm basically saying I'm 100% not lynching anyone other than them whilst the lurkers continue to lurk. That is different from saying that I want to lynch the lurkers right naow!

[Sando]

Then you should trust me on ceejay, because I am pretty damn confident they flip Scum.

He's saying you have bad reads and that any wagon you're on is therefore a bad wagon.

[Sando]

When I am confident someone is Scum they usually are because I am not confident people are Scum very often.

You were pretty confident I was scum...

[Sando]

Then why didn't you say that in the first place?

Jesus dude, actually take the time to read beyond the literal and try to understand what people are saying.

I said: "not lynching outside of the lurkers for now."

You decided to interpret that as I'm pushing for a lurker lynch. I never said that, I haven't tried to convince anyone to vote a lurker, all I said was that I'm not lynching outside of those people. You not understanding what I'm saying is YOUR problem, not mine.

[Sando]

I don't think I ever said I was confident you were Scum. Subtle, but it's different.

Whatever, I'm not going to spam the thread with another stupid TvT fight here.

Point is, people don't believe your reads, as I said previously, you might want to work on that since in the rare case where you hit scum you're just going to get dismissed easily.

[Sando]

I believe quick's read, and pinturicchio's intentions are true.

You mean it's a genuine read from Quick or you actually agree with his reasoning for CJ being scum?

[Sando]

I think it's foolhardy to completely dismiss Quick.

I think this particular read is a good one to sheep Quick on.

Ok but why this one? Best I can come up with is "eventually he'll get one right via luck".

[Sando]

But more than that, I have a lot of town reads, and this is just about as high scum equity slot as we can lynch. So Quick's read is just icing on the cake.

I'm ok with this, but yeah again not particularly interested in pushing a lynch until the lurking is sorted out. I'm just totally over people refusing to play the game (sitewide), this day has a couple of pages to catch up on, I'm not gonna reward their BS with a lynch elsewhere until the BS stops.

[Sando]

First thing... Possibly. I haven't really seen anything Townie from Momo. I've only really seen them assume that they should be a TR which is not the same thing.

If Ceejay flips red (like I think he will) I might revisit my Sando read. It just sucks that no one else was seeing what I was seeing in their play. This happens a lot. It happened in Team Mafia when I went after Shea. Same sorta thing here if Sando is Scum.

Momo slot and reads of it have changed significantly today, I think it's worth simply ignoring it all around today and looking at it with more info in Days 3 and 4.

I'm happy to be relooked at, but this whole conversation is why we're not lynching with lurkers, because at the moment it's just causing town to point the finger at anyone talking while scum can just sit in the background and watch town implode.

[Sando]

Oh look rando scumflaked

Is he Creature 2.0?

[Sando]

i saw people posting about how act = town

its the opposite

scum is winning and the games dead asf and apathetic to ehll

scum is more likely to be active on a pure psychological basis, town is more likely to be unmotivated

My read of the situation:

There's a scum lurking.

There's a scum talking.

There's a scum on the fence maybe prod-dodging etc but keeping a low profile.

These lists are not mutually exclusive, people in both are on the border of them imo.
Scum lurking list is: Random, PK, N_M
Scum talking list is: Alonzo, CJ
Scum fence-sitting is: CJ, Mom, N_M

[Sando]

You are broadcasting again.

Broadcasting?

I forgot mutant, he can go in the fence group.

[Sando]

Sandro and moms just suddenly realised that were stranded on random island. Now they both conveniently SR ceejay just in time for the new players arriving!

Lol now I'm a scumteam with Mom and I need to be re-read on CJ scumflip.

Are you going for the "so bad it can only be town" look? It's working.

[Sando]

Sure, I suddenly SR CJ.

Ta-da!

[Sando]

If I were a gambling man I'd bet one of you flips red here at least.

According to you we're both doing the same thing...and you're acknowledging that at least one of us is probably town...so the thing you think is scummy is, in this case and assuming you're right on your gamble, done in equal measure by town and scum...

I feel like everyone telling me my reads are bad and outdated is right...and that they're worse.

[Sando]

Oh, great, you guys are fighting again instead of voting ceejay. No, cool, great, really.

Told you this would happen.

I'm happy to be relooked at, but this whole conversation is why we're not lynching with lurkers, because at the moment it's just causing town to point the finger at anyone talking while scum can just sit in the background and watch town implode.

[Sando]

VOTE: Alonzo

Sorry Quick.

I think it's town flailing tbh.

[Sando]

Eh I wouldn't have caught that bit because I only read his iso but it's a town role PM so my conclusions are valid

Lolwat? Conclusion that you can't understand why someone wouldn't townread him is valid despite your own read only being valid due to role PM...

This is gonna be a long day.

[Sando]

Is there anything good we can talk about on the forwards front while I work on the backwards and catch up?

Mom and I can't decide on Alonzo, we've changed our minds on him about a dozen times today, and I don't think we've managed to sync up yet, could start there.

[Sando]

i want alonzo today though. sando, are you gonna be an asset or an obstacle?

Well I'm not gonna be an obstacle...but I'm still waiting for catchups, I think going into night before that happens is pro-scum regardless of flip.

Oxy - I outlined the buddying up to badtown-Quick to try and lynch me as scum motivated. But his pushes since then make zero sense as either alignment, hence my "so bad it must be town" comment. At some point you've gotta stop TRing terrible play though.

[Sando]

i have a surprise for you jj

Is it that you SR CJ?

[Sando]

Was this publicly established in day 2 or is Oxy claiming scum

Oxy was the first to point it out, early D2. AFAIK no-one else noticed it before he posted it. Oxy has subsequently claimed not to have noticed it at the time but noticed it during D1 sometime.

[Sando]

I think I was still on random, shouldn't be on JJ, so:

UNVOTE:

Can someone explain why PK/Fitz is a townslot?

[Sando]

I didn't want him universally town read, so that he was less likely to get NK'd

I dunno why I cop flak for "outdated methods" but things like this keep happening? Scum don't just kill the towniest person or locktown people, they PR hunt and in my experience they're pretty good at it. Source = have been almost universally TRd in all my town games since coming back and only NKd where I had medium-claimed Tracker.

Me and Quick are both significantly more TR than duckling was, he didn't need help appearing less TR.

People are so obsessed with these silly mind-games that town now really struggle to create any significant TR list, making scumhunting significantly harder.

[Sando]

Still don't think you're town at this point in the game, mind. If this is you placing me as town, how come you've done it so fast? I don't think we've played together so you shouldn't know my meta

Me? Or Pintu?