Open 725: Jungle Republic - Day 5
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skitter30 she/herLast Laughshe/her
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skitter30 she/herLast Laughshe/her
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This feels almost like too strong of a reaction to that readslist to me?In post 16, ceejayvinoya wrote:Oh noooo. We're in trouble scumbuddies!
@wolves let's form an alliance and lynch off AP today.
Any townie is welcome to join our cause, for the sake of a fun, AP-less game.
VOTE: AP
#LynchAP-
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skitter30 she/herLast Laughshe/her
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skitter30 she/herLast Laughshe/her
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Hmmm, ok. I asked cuz 25 pinged me a bit. It feels like something you think you're supposed to feel so you're just saying it, if that makes sense?In post 30, the worst wrote:not on MS, just once offsite like 2 years ago
I was scum that time tho, nailed scum on the other team and got NK'd >.<
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Lol that's so trueIn post 63, UglyDuck wrote:Oh cmon how are you not gonna make your lynch pool me Draynth and NM given the player in the game?
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this is reminding me of:In post 65, UglyDuck wrote:also do I understand correctly that the mafia does not get a kill in this game. Or is it just so "assumed" that it is not mentioned in the set up?
a) scum!esp 'forgetting' that scum don't get to kill in the last iteration of jungle republic in an attempt to fake a townslip
b) you overly focusing on attempting to understanding the mechanics like you did in pyp in an attempt to distance yourself from them [ie duh that I don't know what scum can do since I'm not scum]
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This is bothering me in the same way that ceejay's vote on AP was bothering me. Why is your immediate response to esp to call for him to be lynched him? Ceejay did the same thing to AP.
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duckling I'm getting scum vibes from you :/
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Also in the last iteration of jungle republic, esp did in fact get hard-cleared by just about everyone for bussing scum!a50 super-hard, so I think that there is some merit to this theory-
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skitter30 she/herLast Laughshe/her
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OK, what was the point of you asking? How did I negate it by asking this?In post 81, UglyDuck wrote:Third part - it was you all that chose to name me a newb skum that game... it is on me that the LAL tactic worked out, and I own that.... but go back and read the thread... any questions I had I am like.... 99% sure I asked in QT.
Also, you calling me out kind of negated the point of me asking. Good players should be smarter every once and a while. Us dummies can create avenues for info that you can't... as long as you like... shut up for 2 hours every once and a while.
Quantify how I feel dissimilar this game from that game.
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duckling, bad OMGUS vote.
I really do think you might be scum this game, and since your reaction to me saying that is to vote me instead of like trying to interact with me about it at all ....
VOTE: the worst
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ducks aren't scum together-
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skitter30 she/herLast Laughshe/her
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I don't know what the 'right' reaction would've been, but ignoring me calling you scummy and then voting me wasn't it.In post 88, the worst wrote:I'm really not sure how to engage with you about your read on me skitter. you literally nitpicked a shitpost and said you're getting "scummy vibes" from me.-
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skitter30 she/herLast Laughshe/her
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Maybe I didn't phrase that super well, but the way I saw it:
-> I called the worst scummy. In that same post, I dislike a bunch of things uglyduck said.
-> uglyduck responds to what I said about him, and says he thinks I'm behaving differently from last game, and votes me (I still want him to describe how I'm being different)
-> duckling (ie the worst) hops on after uglyduck *without in any way responding to me calling him scummy* - that's what I meant by ignored. I'd have expected him to like respond to me saying that in *some* way, and not to just gloss over it. But he just .... didn't. That's not at all how I'd expect town!him to interact with me scumreading him based on past games I've played with him.
Also I think sando thinks I'm talking about uglyduck maybe? I'm talking about the worst. Uglyduck did respond to my points - tw's first post after mine was to vote me after udglyduck did.-
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skitter30 she/herLast Laughshe/her
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lol, ok, this'll be fun
a) @uglyduck: OK, what useful info were you expecting to gain from seeing who would be eager to answer that question?
b) @the worst: I didn't decide you were scum from the get-go. Your early posts don't really feel like town-you, and you're not interacting with me the way I'd expect town!you to be interacting with me
c) @the worst: What do you mean by 'Skitter is a lot keener and less careful here than she usually is'?
(ie 'keener' isn't used super commonly in american-english and the definition that I'm applying here doesn't really make sense given the rest of the sentence as far as I can tell )
d) @the worst: why are you voting me right now?-
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skitter30 she/herLast Laughshe/her
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That doesn't help lol
Honestly, I don't have very good reads right now; I dont' really think that most of the game has left RVS yet and like I don't think that most of the slots have posted AI content yet. My only decent-ish reads are scumlean on you, maybe scumlean on the other duck, and NM had like one post that I liked. Oh and I like that esp's left RVS and is pushing you.
But like half the game is some varient of scum so I'm not going to be putting much credence in townreads-
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skitter30 she/herLast Laughshe/her
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NahIn post 115, pinturicchio wrote:@skitter is Espeonage your partner this game?
Yeah forced is a good word. It doesn't feel like a real thought? Idk how to explain that betterIn post 116, the worst wrote:Do you mean it felt forced to you? If so it's a personality misread for sure. I'm good enough at scum to avoid saying shit like this if it isn't genuine.
OK I read it again and I think that maybe I ascribed more meaning to a drunk memepost than was meant to be there?In post 116, the worst wrote:This is a lot closer to me taking the piss out of my drunken self for missing the irony in Espe's post and not a serious comment
Considering we've had a couple of games together as t/t I feel like you must have a gauge of my style. This all just feels so reachy...?
Like I know we've played tvt together a lot and you meme a lot but this doesn't feel like the way you usually do?
idk.
UNVOTE:
I think I may have read too much into that and I think I'm going to let this read develop a bit more cuz this is exactly the sort of thing I tend to get tunneled on and like I don't want to do that.
I'm taking a break from the mounds of hw I have to do this week but I'll prob check back in in a few hours; I basically use this as a distraction when I need a break-
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skitter30 she/herLast Laughshe/her
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It felt like too strong a reaction for what was effectively a memepost.In post 125, ceejayvinoya wrote:Why is my vote on AP bothering you? that was rvs. Tho I guess it will become serious soon if AP doesn't stop posting shit.
But a) tw says that might just be a personality thing from you and he has more experience with you than I do b) your post was also a memepost that I may have read too much into
So like it pings me but I'm not ascribing too much meaning to it, if that makes sense.
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@pin: why are you townreading uglyduck?
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Good, the quicker we do this the quicker I'll be townreadIn post 133, the worst wrote: given this isnt skitters v/la time and she is an active poster why hold off for that long? she's under the scope, onus is on her to alignment spew rn.
That reminds me:
@modI'm going to be vla Friday to Monday this weekend.
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I liked 73 and that he called you out for an OMGUS vote. I dislike that you tried to brush off that post.In post 134, the worst wrote:Talk to me on Espe--what part of his push are you liking for town? (assumption given context)
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My vote on you wasn't OMGUS, and you calling it that reduces my position from 'I voted tw because he didn't respond to me calling him scummy in a way I think town!tw would' to 'I voted tw cuz he voted me'In post 143, the worst wrote:if you honestly thing OMGUS is remotely scumtelling what do you make of the fact skitter OMGUS'd my OMGUS vote?
#OMGUSception
You're like stripping away all the nuance from my point by calling it an OMGUS vote.
Lecture now, so I'll pick up from here later-
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skitter30 she/herLast Laughshe/her
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If it were singleball draynth would be a fairly strong townread at this point cuz his play here and his play in pyp are like night and day.
Since multiball he can be a tentative townlean.
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Tw is scummier. The post you quoted explains whyIn post 165, ManWithNoName wrote:Ugly Duck is scummy, so you vote the other duck?
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169 feels weird. Like an overreaction almost?-
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skitter30 she/herLast Laughshe/her
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I think tw is probably scum, no idea which specific flavor. I'm not sure on uglyduck atm.In post 196, ManWithNoName wrote:
My main confusion was that you said the ducks are not scum together, yet you are scum reading both... But then I remembered that this was multiball, so it makes sense now.In post 193, skitter30 wrote:
Tw is scummier. The post you quoted explains whyIn post 165, ManWithNoName wrote:Ugly Duck is scummy, so you vote the other duck?
If they are both scum though they aren't partners.-
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skitter30 she/herLast Laughshe/her
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I haven't played with scum!tw yet but he doesn't really feel like the town!tw I've played with previously to me right now.
Like I'm having a lot of trouble seeing his vote on me come from town!him given past games.
I feel like in general he's trying to gloss over being scumread or is trying to play down people scumreading him.-
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skitter30 she/herLast Laughshe/her
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Idk exactly. I'd have expected town!you to talk to me about it, or joke/meme/mock me for reading you wrong. Completely ignoring it only to vote me once someone else does without addressing the initial scumread in any way feels wrong.In post 213, the worst wrote:
ok how does town!tw respond to people scumreading him for awful reasons on d1?In post 205, skitter30 wrote:I haven't played with scum!tw yet but he doesn't really feel like the town!tw I've played with previously to me right now.
Like I'm having a lot of trouble seeing his vote on me come from town!him given past games.
I feel like in general he's trying to gloss over being scumread or is trying to play down people scumreading him.
I'll wait.
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You do realize you're using my reasons to scumread you as reasons to scumread me, right?In post 224, the worst wrote:I don't feel like this is an actual feeling she actually has.
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So, drunk!you thought that NM had successfully tricked scum!esp into hopping on a fake scumslip?In post 226, the worst wrote:first and foremost: does anyone actually think it was dumb of me to miss that Espe's post here was meant to be sarcastic?
it genuinely felt like good ol' fashioned scumfuckery.
Why is this scum!indicative of esp and not just lazy!indicative of esp? Like I don't get why you think this is scummy and not just lazy.
He said his vote was serious cuz he was too lazy to go back and check. I agree that there isn't town motivation in that, but lack of town!motivation != scum!motivation. Like I just think it's a lazy indicator and not an alignment indicator and I'm not getting where you're seeing scum motivation.In post 230, the worst wrote:2) his vote was serious in which case I can't see town motivation in it.
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Why town!duckling?In post 228, AP wrote:OK, serious read.. duckling is town
also @mwnm since you said you had mixed up the duckling's meta and agreed with this.
bottom of page 10, I'll pick up from there in a bit-
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skitter30 she/herLast Laughshe/her
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wrt the 'sando/ud scum-not-killing' thing:
=> In general I don't really care if people try to get clarification about the setup or think it's AI, but ud's original post kinda pinged me since we just played a game where scum!him would deliberately invoke the setup and his 'lack' of knowledge of it in an attempt to indicate that he was town.
=> I don't think that knowing that scum don't nk in this setup without seeing it explicitly written out in the OP is particularly meaningful -> like I know that from playing a previous iteration of this game and without reading this OP. Sando coming to that conclusion from reading the role PMs, and I don't find unusual.
=> I do find it weird that sando is defending/speaking for ud and is saying things like 'we both ...' (162 and 253)
=> sando's 169 feels like an overaction to me to mwnn's statement
=> I don't understand the argument btwn sando and mwnn regarding whether ww's are given the title of 'scum' or how this discussion is like relevant or game advancing.-
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In post 261, the worst wrote:
your motherIn post 257, TheYankeeReaper wrote:theworst, if you had to pick a scum partner(s) for Espeonage who would it be.
you're a comedian-
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I guess my specific problem with this is that you're saying 'we both assumed it due to the role PMs not mentioning it', when UD hasn't said anything of the sort so like .... how do you know that's what he assumed? Like why are you explaining his thought process for him?In post 253, Sando wrote:
Neither of us were ignorant of it,In post 251, ceejayvinoya wrote:Um. What if UD and Sando really are ignorant of the fact that mafia can't kill? I glossed over those posts and thought them NAI, because they could go either way.we both assumed it due to the role PMs not mentioning it, and we both missed the actual statement in the mechanics part that is totally clear.
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In post 270, Sando wrote:There is a clear pattern here, ask a vague leading question that implies scumminess, when challenged on that, obfuscate and back away whilst denying they were ever actually trying to imply scumminess.
Which is it?In post 270, Sando wrote:so it's either lazy town play or it's scum-play.
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what's your read on me btw?
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sando and mwnn not scum together I think?
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(aside, nice use of 'parochial' )-
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skitter30 she/herLast Laughshe/her
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Sando, idk, your MWNN read isn't sitting super well with me. It kind of feels like you're hedging on calling him scummy, if that makes sense?
Like this to me feels like you're describing scummy behavior but your conclusion is that he's more likely than not bad town. This bit that I've quoted I associate more with scum than bad town tbh.In post 270, Sando wrote:There is a clear pattern here, ask a vague leading question that implies scumminess, when challenged on that, obfuscate and back away whilst denying they were ever actually trying to imply scumminess.
Like you're kinda doing the same thing he is: imply scumminess but backing away when someone tries to get you to commit either way.
Like what does this mean exactly?In post 274, Sando wrote:Only scum are motivated to act in the way he has, but I'd say it's fairly good scumplay and quite a subtle art, so it's more likely to be a townie being silly imo.
What I understand you to be saying: 'Only scum are motivated to behave the way he does, but such behavior is *such* good scumplay that like most people aren't that good at scum so it's more likely that he's just bad town instead'?
Like .... why isn't he good scum behaving in this fashion that you believe to be scum motivated? I don't super understand the conclusion that he's just bad town instead of good scum tbh.
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I almost feel like you've cased him to discredit his push on you tbh.-
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skitter30 she/herLast Laughshe/her
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Thing is that I don't really think scum!esp is any more likely to think that was a genuine slip. I really just think it was a derp/lazy-indicator and not so much an alignment indicator.In post 275, the worst wrote:
Probably singleball thinking. Scum want a lynch, town want scum. I just don't see town!Espe actually thinking that was a genuine slip from me :s it felt so opportunitic and weirdIn post 266, skitter30 wrote:So, drunk!you thought that NM had successfully tricked scum!esp into hopping on a fake scumslip?
Why is this scum!indicative of esp and not just lazy!indicative of esp? Like I don't get why you think this is scummy and not just lazy.
Ftr v/la conferencing the next couple of days. Let me know if you want anything from me (sans ridiculous requests TYR )
I hope the conference goes well-
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skitter30 she/herLast Laughshe/her
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@sando:
=> I think that MWNN hasn't been totally understanding your posts and that he's responding to what he thinks you said, not what you actually said, and when he couldn't parse your argument he just ended the convo. I don't think that's inherently AI. I don't really have a read on him from that convo.
=> I think that you're ascribing scummy motivation to his half of the convo and framing it as being scummy, and then come to the conclusion that it's more likely than not bad town which doesn't totally match up to me.
=> The reason why I'm having a problem with this at all is that you seem to be trying to undermine his vote on you: you're describing his motivations in his half of the convo of being scummy/disingenuous. Like this seems to be a really really long-winded way of going about calling his read/vote on you bad.-
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In post 212, AP wrote:Say, isn't N_M in this game? I think we can cownt on him reading tw.@ap: does this affect your read on tw?
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@sando:
=> I'm saying that I don't think that not reading it is AI tbh. Lots of people just don't bother reading my posts and I haven't seen a correlation between 'reading complicated posts' and 'alignment'
=> I tried to answer your question as best I can: I don't have a read on him right now. I don't know if your conclusion about scum/bad town is correct or incorrect cuz I don't have a read. Or, more accurately, I don't have a read that I'm confident enough in to actually pick a side (if I *had* to pick, I'd give a *very* slight townlean but it wouldn't be enough to feel confident about that read in singleball, and most certainly not in multiball).
I'm not throwing shade. I'm saying that your original case/read on him was very hedge-y, and didn't come to a firm conclusion. From that post alone, it looked like you were scum-casing him, and I almost expected a vote from you on him after I read it, but you left the conclusion open to being 'lazy town or scum', and didn't commit to one or the other till I pressed you. I don't particularly find your 'bad-town' read on him to be real or convincing; your original post left it ambiguous and when ceejay there voted because of your post, you didn't clarify that you're actually 'bad-town'-casing him in that post and not scum-casing him. ie you didn't really seem to have a problem with ceejay voting someone because of a case you wrote that wasn't actually a scumcase, but rather a bad-towncase
=> It's purely about your reaction to it andhow you framed your case on him to make him look scummy(ie to the point where people viewed it as a scumcase and voted there because of it) even though you aren't calling him scum.
Like I get all of this. I understand why you're telling me you've come to the conclusion of bad town and why his posting is bad, and this isn't what I have a problem with. What I don't get is why you're initial post looks like a scumcase and is framing his half of the convo in a bad/scummy light when your actual argument is that he isn't scum. Or why that post was made at all if you weren't trying to scumcase him. And now that I think about it, how it was even a response to the original question that I asked: why you were speaking for UD.In post 296, Sando wrote:Unless you actually want to address my points, about his posting being bad, scumhunting and Hanlons razor, my actual reasoning for it being town instead of scum...then this is a totally pointless conversation.
I'm not waffling: I'm telling you that I think that you were scummy in how you presented your read on MWNN because it looks like you're trying to frame him in a scummy light when you aren't actually calling him scum. Like it looks to me more about trying to discredit MWNN in an attempt to distract from his vote on you / his line of questioning than actually explaining a read on him. And I find it really weird that you didn't have a problem with ceejay voting there becuase of you when you *weren't* scumcasing him.-
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skitter30 she/herLast Laughshe/her
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Not precisely dumbtelling but more like trying to distance himself from setup specifics in an attempt to indicate that because he doesn't know them he isn't scum.In post 305, ceejayvinoya wrote:
Okay I'm gonna assume you're not werewolf then. Possibly could still be scum tho.In post 253, Sando wrote:
Neither of us were ignorant of it, we both assumed it due to the role PMs not mentioning it, and we both missed the actual statement in the mechanics part that is totally clear.In post 251, ceejayvinoya wrote:Um. What if UD and Sando really are ignorant of the fact that mafia can't kill? I glossed over those posts and thought them NAI, because they could go either way.
Not sure about uglyduck because skitter said that he has a history of dumbtelling.-
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skitter30 she/herLast Laughshe/her
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Yes. I think you were more focused on explaining why his line of questioning shouldn't be listened to than explaining a read. That's my point - I think the goal of that post was more about discrediting him than anything else. I don't know if you were specifically trying to avoid calling him scum so much as you were focusing on why his read on you was bad; my problem is that in doing so, you attributed scummy behavior to him, left it ambiguous as 'lazy town or scum', and then called him bad town when pressed, so I don't get why that whole post looked like a scumcase.In post 310, Sando wrote:...so you're saying I made a big deal about someone and then avoided calling him scum, as scum? Like...why? What would I be gaining there as scum?
I don't know why you didn't hop on, or why you didn't cultivate the wagon by proceeding to scumread MWNN when I asked. I also don't know why you didn't protest when someone else started a wagon on someone you're bad-town-reading because of a case you wrote.In post 310, Sando wrote:CJ picked up my case and ran with it and instead of realising I had a good mislynch target (well as scum I'd know he's at least not my faction and presumably CJ isn't buddying me as my scumpartner THAT closely), I decided to wind that back and say "nah, more likely to be town". C'mon, where's the logical scum-play here? What am I, as scum, hoping to achieve here?
This a writing/posting style thing and just how I write. Like those are just the phrases I use to describe things in general (and if you don't believe me you can just like ctrl+f my ISO in previous games; if I had to guess, 'feels like' will come up most often). And I like to think that I write clearly enough that people can understand my point without me having to frame my sentences as 'I find player A to be scummy because ...' or 'I townread player B because ...' .In post 310, Sando wrote:You're not making your scumread on me clear, anyone reading our interaction in the last few pages would see that before this latest post you've never outright said I'm scummy.Lot's of "it's almost like" and "my problem is" and "feels like", without coming out and actually giving a scumpinion.
No, I didn't explicitly say 'I think sando is scum because ...', but I made it very clear that I think you're behaving in a scummy fashion. My problem with you is that your post *looks* like it's scumcasing someone but apparently isn't, because when pressed you said you just think he's bad town, and I find that duplicitous.
Honestly forgot to move my vote to you
VOTE: sando-
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skitter30 she/herLast Laughshe/her
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This is beginning to feel quite a lot like the last iteration of jungle republic ....
I think you just weren't particularly planning on committing to a read either way cuz that wasn't the motivation of the post; you weren't trying to explain a read but rather discredit MWNN despite 'more likely than not' townreading him.In post 312, Sando wrote:Rofl, ok, so you can't actually explain a motivation for why I'd do what I'm doing as scum, but you're pretty sure I'm scum...nice scumhunting there...
Also, my very next post after CJs vote was explaining to you that I thought it was most likely town...gee I'm soooooo sorry I didn't directly call out CJ there. I could have done exactly what you've just done, claim "forgetfulness" and drop my vote on him post CJ, instead I responded to you about how I think it's more likely town than not.
Like my argument is that you 'wrote up a post that looks like a scumcase but apparently wasn't because you say you're townreading him to some degree, so I find that initial post to be discredit-y of MWNN', not that 'you deliberately avoided commiting to a read on someone you had made a thing about', which isn't quite the same thing, and I don't know why you'd do the latter.
And like, you still haven't protested the fact that ceejay's voting someone you think is more likely town than not based on a case that you wrote.-
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In post 332, the worst wrote:My case on Espe was 'why I think that post is bad' more than 'why I think he is clearly scum'. I don't see any reason to townread him or like the post. I also don't have much of a read on him.
More than anything I was surprised HOW different skitter's pov on it was.
I was under the impression that you were scumreading him for his intial vote on you (in fact we even went back and forth about this?), and also that you disliked 73In post 226, the worst wrote:first and foremost: does anyone actually think it was dumb of me to miss that Espe's post here was meant to be sarcastic?
it genuinely felt like good ol' fashioned scumfuckery-
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I get that draynth has had few posts, but the ones that he has are like six billion times townier than anything he posted in pyp, which like half of us played in last week where he was scum.In post 330, Sando wrote:
Never played with him, but he strikes me as a scummy lurker. His post about me and UD being scum was ill-considered and he hasn't responded to criticism of that. The lack of content gives me a lack of insight obviously, but twas him bringing up this whole thing about me and UD not reading the role PMs and opening post, so for him to subsequently stay quiet strikes me as scum setting something up for townies to kill themselves over.In post 329, pinturicchio wrote:I need your word about Draynth too. I'm biased because my last finished game is with scum!Draynth on it and I don't know how town!Draynth plays. From someone who hasn't played with Draynth, what are your thoughts on him?
And he's busy in real life, and you're framing that as him causing a shitstorm and then lurking in order to let town tear itself up in the fallout.
I feel like you're ascribing scummy motivation (ie staying quiet after scumreading you/ud) to something completely NAI (ie being busy irl)-
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I don't know what you mean by thisIn post 352, Sando wrote:Seems like you're slowly coming around to the idea that I posted a case and and now trying to slink off while town carries my bags?-
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You mean the ceejay thing?In post 356, Sando wrote:Namely, the idea that you drop some bait about someone's scumminess and slink away while townies fight over it and kill themselves in the process.
I brought that up before the draynth thing so I don't know what your point is
Except that isn't quite my point because I don't know if you necessarily planned it as bait so much as didn't object when it happened to be read as a scumcase by someone else.In post 308, skitter30 wrote:ie you didn't really seem to have a problem with ceejay voting someone because of a case you wrote that wasn't actually a scumcase, but rather a bad-towncase
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back to the draynth thing, I think that you're framing something NAI as being scummy.-
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Why is your conclusion that draynth is town given 359?In post 360, UglyDuck wrote:Draynth - town
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wrt pin - he asked the question but like if you think he was fishing for that sort of answer, you gave him the answer he wanted to hear. And if you think he was fishing for that answer, why didn't you point that out? Also I'm not sure if he was fishing for an answer so much as stating his opinion and asking others what their opinion was tooIn post 365, Sando wrote:
So Pintu explicitly stated agreement with me and was clearly fishing for that sort of answer, so he already had it in mind. And UD has reiterated some of my points and some of yours.In post 357, skitter30 wrote:back to the draynth thing, I think that you're framing something NAI as being scummy.Why exactly do you think it's me that's scummy and why do you seem to hold the view that someone should be incredibly definitive with their D1 scumreads?
wrt ud - I mean, I'm not psychic? I can't call someone out for an argument they made before they made the argument
wrt bolded - I don't know what that means or where you think I'm doing that
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He's played with and/or spectated a bunch of my games in the past few months, and more than once he's said that he respects my town game *a lot*.In post 366, Draynth wrote:Could you give some examples? I've only played with TW once (PYP) and since I was scum that game I can't really compare that game and this one objectively.
in pyp, the following was his response to someone saying they wanted to lynch me in RVS before I even posted:
shortly after I entered the thread before I'd really done anything:In post 15, the worst wrote:don't lynch skitter pls
when he's town he wants to work with me and wants to understand what I'm thinking and work things through with meIn post 70, the worst wrote:anyway.........town!skitter is awesome so I will just try to resist reading her for now in the hope she skitters
here: votes me for calling him scummy without engaging me about it at all. It's specifically the lack of engagement that's pinging me because that's not how town!him interacts with me.
Like instead of talking to me about it, he doesn't respond and hops on a wagon that someone else made, and like I just don't' see town!duck doing that at that point in the game given that I don't think he'd sorted me yet and he usually wants to work with me
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@tyr: happy birthday-
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italics: no I don't. My point is in the italics in the following quote:In post 388, Sando wrote:In post 379, skitter30 wrote:wrt ud - I mean, I'm not psychic? I can't call someone out for an argument they made before they made the argument
wrt bolded - I don't know what that means or where you think I'm doing thatYet you seem to want me to psychically know what Pintu's thoughts were...
Bolded - You think my thoughts on Draynth are a "framing", well Pintu has expressed the exact same thoughts and UD has confirmed some of them, and refuted others. What are your thoughts on the "framing" given Pintu thinks exactly the same? What are your thoughts on the "framing" now that UD has made his statement about it?
You're basically telling me that you think I'm singling you out for being scummy when pin and ud had made similar arguments and that I hadn't talked about them.In post 365, Sando wrote:
So Pintu explicitly stated agreement with me and was clearly fishing for that sort of answer, so he already had it in mind. And UD has reiterated some of my points and some of yours.In post 357, skitter30 wrote:back to the draynth thing, I think that you're framing something NAI as being scummy.Why exactly do you think it's me that's scummyand why do you seem to hold the view that someone should be incredibly definitive with their D1 scumreads?
wrt ud, I'm pointing out that his draynth read happened in 359-360 - I couldn't have talked about him because his read happened after my post. I wasn't like ignoring his read - it just didn't exist yet.
My thoughts on his draynth read *now* is that I don't understand much of anything written in 359, which is why I asked him to explain his draynth townread.
I think that pin just stated his opinion that he thinks draynth may be scummy and asked other people for their reads. I think that you took the oppurutnity to call him scummy for something that isn't AI.
Pin and ud have meta reasons for associating draynth lurking with draynth being scummy. You explicitly said your read wasn't meta-based, but that you think him lurking is scummy, and my point is that being busy irl isn't AI.-
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I think he's trying significantly more here than he did there.In post 392, UglyDuck wrote:
I did say why in the post - I think that he at least "tried" as skum. this seems different.In post 379, skitter30 wrote:
Why is your conclusion that draynth is town given 359?In post 360, UglyDuck wrote:Draynth - town
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It's almost like people could *gasp* be busy irl ....In post 393, Sando wrote:
It's almost like scum couldIn post 391, skitter30 wrote:Pin and ud have meta reasons for associating draynth lurking with draynth being scummy. You explicitly said your read wasn't meta-based, but that you think him lurking is scummy, and my point is that being busy irl isn't AI.*gasp*lie...
I don't understand why you're assuming that there's scummy motivation in him not posting for like two days when it could just as easily be explained by him being busy
tbqh if this weren't multiball I'd have close to lock-towned him already because his posts are ridiculously more nuanced than anything posted in pyp despite the superficial similarity of him saying he's busy irl
(because multiball I'm not going to locktown him just yet; in the last iteration of jungle republic I basically locktowned someone (montosh; whom I had played against scum the week before and had him as hard scum for most of the game and wanted to townread him in jungle republic for being insanely more nuanced) for very similar reasoning and it turns out that they were just good at faking in multiball the things they couldn't in singleball)
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I mean, there's 5 scum so like unless you've pegged all of them at least one must be above your null line?In post 401, ceejayvinoya wrote:Where I'm stuck at in terms of reads:
{Pintu, Draynth} --town
{Not_Mafia, Sando}
{Skitter, UglyDuck}
{YankeeReaper, The Worst} --null
{AP}
{NoNameMan, Espe} --probs scum
I'm pretty sure there must be one or more scum above my null line but that will sort itself out later.
why on nm, sando, mwnn, and esp?
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In post 402, Not_Mafia wrote:I can't predict the future-
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I mean, I feel like I've made my read on you pretty clear and I don't think you've done anything to warrant changing it?In post 411, the worst wrote:A few things skitter is posting are looking townier
ironically I don't think she's taking the time to get an accurate read on me but
meh, we got a whole probably
AP where you at with NM? I have a strong feeling
And like there's a few times when I posted stuff @you that you kinda ignored so idk what you want me to be doing instead ...?
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that was the one post of nm that I liked that I mentioned in 112In post 425, ceejayvinoya wrote:My best shot at a town NM. This post of mine really is pingy, and his rxn to it pings town to me.
But I very much share this sentimentIn post 436, ceejayvinoya wrote:Reason for NM below the nulls line is I'd rather lynch him than lynch one of my nulls.
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a) i don't think I'm being 'desperate'In post 437, Sando wrote:
I wanted to led it ride for a day or so to see how she responded, but yeah I'm tending to agree. The desperate attempt to read everything I do as scummy strikes me as townie,In post 411, the worst wrote:A few things skitter is posting are looking townierplus she's run this well beyond what a scum would see as viable I think.
UNVOTE:
b) yeah the bolded is basically the correct way to read me cuz like I can't really fake being stubborn or keep on argument going over a longish period of time if I didn't actually believe what I was saying. this basically-
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@sando: That isn't how I'd use the word 'desperate', but I get what you're trying to say now, although I don't think it's accurate to say that I've painted your every action as being scummy. But then mathdino said I did the same thing to him last game so I guess that's what I do when I get tunneled? Cept I don't think I'm tunneled right now.
@tw: can you talk to me about why you were initially scumreading me and why you're now not?
And I'm not entirely sure what you feel bad and/or lost about?
And can you clarify your reads on both esp and nm? I'm not really sure where you stand on either of them.-
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Well, idk if I phrased them as questions so much as made observations that I was kinda expecting you to make some sort of response to, but maybe I didn't convey that well so that might be on me, idk. So like, don't feel bad or anything <3In post 443, the worst wrote:I feel bad and confused if I've ignored things you've specifically directed at me. I don't necessarily feel the need to comment on every post you make but I definitely don't intend to ignore anyone.
(I was worried for a minute that I had done something to like make you feel bad on like a personal level or something, which is not what I want to do like at all)
So this was one of the things that I had brought up earlier in 350. You had oringally said his vote on you felt like 'good ol' fashioned scumfuckery' so I'm trying to understand why you stopped thinking that the vote was scummy and why you're now saying his early game was probably NAI.In post 443, the worst wrote:Espe dead null. Disliked his early content but on the balance of things not really an AI distaste. Need more content when he's available.
I have a *slight* (ie like *tiny*) townlean on NM and theoretically I'd be down to pl him but this setup only allows for one mislynch if wolves don't crosskill so a pl probably isn't the best idea here.
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he's basically saying that he wanted scum to get lynched in his absence and the connotation is that he still maintains the same scumread that he had earlier, which I think is the one on tw.In post 445, UglyDuck wrote:
what does this mean? I get you are aknoledging you were prodded... but skum aint dedded means?In post 405, Espeonage wrote:sup, prodded but scum aint dedded yet.
aside, is english your first language?-
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@ud: why aren't you scumreading me anymore?
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I don't understand where the draynth votes are coming from, and like esp said, I don't think they'll encourage him to post more.
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@tw: I don't get why you voted esp after he tried to get votes on you, especially since you just told me you don't have a read on him. And like he has a reason for scumreading you even though you don't like it and don't agree with it? I don't get where the 'no reason' bit is coming from.In post 464, the worst wrote:yes it's an awful reflex
but you lurked until you're voted then come in and continue to tell people to vote me for....apparently no reason?
and there's a lot of people I don't feel like voting right now
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I don't understand what you mean by this. Why is theorizing about multiball specifically werewolf indicative? Why is it even scum indicative in a generic-scum sense?In post 475, Sando wrote:I think Espe's theorising about multiball says he's werewolf, who are likely to play like normal scum imo. Directing town away from "normal" scumhunting is not helping town and has not been clarified.-
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Lurky but he said he was busy. I like the push on you, I dislike that he hasn't done much else, and I dislike your reaction to his posts.In post 490, the worst wrote:skitter, what do you make of Espe's approach to this game in general?
p-edit he was the vig that vigged you there-
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a) I mean, his theory seems to work - he won the last jungle republic that wayIn post 494, Sando wrote:
Theorising itself is not, but:In post 487, skitter30 wrote:I don't understand what you mean by this. Why is theorizing about multiball specifically werewolf indicative? Why is it even scum indicative in a generic-scum sense?
a) he's not backing up his theory, he's just saying "I've played jungle before, this is how you do it", hence my Appeal to Authority statement.
b) I think it's werewolf because they're the "traditional" scum in this game. They've got a NK, they don't have to worry about being NK'd and they've got a PR they need to deal with. They have some extra thoughts on their mind, like needing to get scum numbers lower (I think this is how end-game works from my reading), but overall they can probably play a formal normal scumgame, which I'm positing that you can therefore normally scumhunt. Espe is saying that you can't normal scumhunt (which I disagree with) and that's saying to town that they shouldn't do something that should in theory be just as effective against one-scumfaction, wolves. Hence via that old logic-centre in mah brain, most likely wolf.
b) I don't really agree that scum play a normal scumgame in multiball- both factions can legitimately look for scum (and thus can naturally do behaviors that are normally associated with town). As such, it's hard to scumhunt normally because scum can do townie behaviors. And wolves' night actions aren't entirely analogous to those of scum in singleball because they don't know the alignment of the nk - they can choose to try to shoot for scum instead of shooting a townie.-
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So your vote was a pressure vote?In post 504, AP wrote:
TBH, it's starting to be a PL for me in all games I'm in with him. He does jack shit and then replaces out. I want him to replace out sooner than later.In post 488, ManWithNoName wrote:AP, why Draynth?-
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Actually I'm wrong. There's two mislynches if wolves never crosskill, apologies. I was misremembering the last jungle republic.In post 518, ManWithNoName wrote:
Even better point. I am not one to trust for any sort of number things. And if you had it down to one of two that probably locks it in to me.In post 513, skitter30 wrote:OK I think I know who you are now, maybe. (at least, I have it down to probably one of two people from the second stack-the-deck playerlist)
we don't really have room for a pl in this setup. Town has one mislynch if wolves don't crosskill
Anyway, I'm bouncing till Monday.-
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OK I'm going to do my best not to wallpost.
--> @sando, 529: I'm a little bit confused about this given that you've previously characterized him as a scummy lurker? Like you're now saying that posting elsewhere isn't really inherently scummy?
--> I don't get why UD won't just share his reasons for thinking sando is scum? He never did share why he thought I was scum; he later just said he was no longer scumreading me. I do feel like the past paragraph of 539 is him trying to (badly) deflect away from the attention he's recieved over the sando vote and I don't much like it.
I'm kinda getting the vibe that he might be mislynchbait, cuz people seem to be scumreading him and hopping on him for not making sense (ie and not for being inherently scummy), but then I misread him badly last time, so what do I know? I do feel very confident that the ducks aren't scum together though, but I think I said that already.
--> mwnn maybe town? (btw, I did in fact think you were brass )
--> hi fumuki! (yeah I pretty much always write wallposts. Sorry, I try really hard not to but I'm not very good at it)
ok I got up to page 26 but I gotta get to class, I'll pick up later-
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This basically. Atm I think we just want to lynch scum. In an ideal universe we'd be wolfhunting cuz we don't want nk's but idk if there's a particularly reliable way to distinguish between wolves and scum pre-flip day1 so like I'd be happy with getting any flavor of scum tbh. Like later in the game we need to be cognizant of wincons and try to make sure we don't lose by lynching the wrong scumteam, but beyond the general 'eradicating wolves eliminates nk's' I don't really know if the particulars really matter today.In post 671, Sando wrote:
Yo TW, have your fun with Fumi, but it's just occurred to me: Why are people so concerned about which scumfaction the person is? Town are the least likely to care about what faction someone is other than that they're scum, at least while seer is alive and well.In post 668, Fumuki wrote:TW, we need to heavily disagree here. Sando didn't notice until a minute ago that Mafia has no reason to want to out the Seer. Do you think if he's scum here he would be thinking only about the other team and not what he himself should do?
It makes no sense duckling. There's some probability of him being mafia, but if Sando is scum, he's very likely flipping wolf here.
(mafia!a50 tried to pull some variation of this argument in the last iteration of jungle republic)
Specifically this bit. Mafia!a50 kept shouting this at me there day2.In post 676, Fumuki wrote:PLUS, WHY ARE YOU SAYING THAT TOWN SHOULDN'T CARE ABOUT WHAT FACTION THEY LYNCH?
IF WE LYNCH THE WEREWOLVES HERE, IT BECOME NIGHTLESS AND TOWN GAINS 100% CONTROL OF WHO DIES
(town!me held sando's above position, and mafia!a50 held fumuki's above position so idk why this is a argument for scum!sando tbh)
I don't understand this argument between fumuki and sando tbh. In different game states wolves prioritize different things. There isn't a general rule of 'wolves always want to kill the seer' or 'wolves always want to kill mafia' or 'wolves always want to kill people scumreading them'. They'll do whatever's more expedient for them at that time, so like I don't understand why you're quibbling over this.In post 677, Sando wrote:Well he's saying wolves should be killing mafia overnight, ignoring that while that's true, their actual top priority is the seer.
+1In post 686, ManWithNoName wrote:I don't care who the werewolves are killing first, I need to lynch mafia and werewolves, and I have no way of telling which scum are which during Day 1, so, can we stop talking about who kills whom first?
OK you can be promoted to like minor townlean
I feel like your understanding of the game is fairly simplistic: we want to eradicate wolves so that the game becomes nightless. In theory, that's true ... but like, in practice, lynching two wolves two days in a row isn't nearly as easy as you make it out to be. Like ... lynching scum *in general* isn't nearly as easy as you're making it out to be and just saying 'we're going to lynch wolves today and tomorrow' like isn't going to make that happen and I'll be happy to just lynch not-town.In post 727, Fumuki wrote:If the 2 werewolves drop dead, it becomes a nightless game practically andtown have 100% control of the lynchs. Town has an advantage in nightless games because the town powerhouses can't eat the NK.
Mafia is the one that benefits more by leaving the Werewolves alive because LATER they need to hunt the Seer and that's basically killing townies while Mafia coast.
Also you're claiming that by eradicating all the wolves, town has control over the lynch - that isn't true. Even by lynching all the wolves, day3 there's *at minimum* a two-team scumteam who can influence the lynch, and I think that's a pretty important factor in all of this.
ok i'll end this here and start a new post.-
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zzzzzzz
why is this wolf vs mafia argument still going on like five pages later?
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Uh, didn't you literally like *three posts above this* post stats explaining that the only recent town win happened cuz town lynched the wolves? Why the change of heart after like six pages?In post 789, Fumuki wrote:You know what guys? I'm maybe changing plans here.
As long as the Seer is alive and he leaves crumbes of who is werewolf and who isn't werewolves, It may be for the best to try lynching Mafia.
When we get the Seer results here we can eliminate the werewolf pool anyway. We deal with them later because I'm not in the mood to lose because WW aren't going to cooperate with town to eliminate the red colored guys.
794 - he won the last jungle republic cuz he hard-bussed a50 and cuz for reasons beyond me people wouldn't lynch the obvscum for four freaking days, who proceeded to kill a townie the last night instead of hitting mafia.
Yeah the mafia won, but like, that wasn't only reason.
And in the last iteration of jungle republic, the first nk was a combo of seer-hunting/mafia-hunting (the nk was literally descirbed as someone who had the potential to be either); the second nk was seer-hunting; the third nk was me cuz if it wasn't I was going to do my damndest for the fourth day in a row to get the wolf lynched and he didn't want to deal with me irregardless of my alignment and I wasn't lynchable at that point; the fourth nk was mafia-hunting but he hit a townie instead.
It isn't accurate to say that the wolves tried to kill townies, because that wasn't really what they were trying to do each night.
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I don't understand why you want to lynch esp if you think he's mafia given that you spent like a billion pages shouting that we need to lynch wolves.
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I don't understand the esp case in general tbh. THat last time he let wolves do their own thing and he won as scum so he's scum here for not realizing that wolves are dangerous to town?
I think you're scumreading him for having a different game/set-up philosophy and not something actually scum-indicative tbh.
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I disagree with this premise (source: first nk of the last iteration of jungle republic)In post 823, Fumuki wrote:but it'll be kind of apparent if they are shooting for the Seer or if they are trying to hit Mafia,like, if they shot someone like UD they are totally shooting town, there's a lot of better choices to catch scum right now.
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You like weren't in that game, and it's beginning to get annoying to see you use a game prove your point when it doesn't.In post 849, Fumuki wrote:What are you even talking about Espeonage? Do you seriously think that in a multiball where Mafia hasn't NK it's just due to your "bussing" that you won?
It too was because the Werewolves had bad reads (and were again hunting the fricking Seer), killing a lot of the town. And when Werewolves suck, we need to try lynching them before they hurt town too much. Either that or focus in lynching Mafia as long as the Seer is alive.
-> wolves played horribly and were on the defensive from like page 3 (ie I caught one; proceeded to have a twenty page argument with him; he just *barely* escaped the noose; wolves failed to be on the mafia lynch iirc; wolves failed to kill a scum at night) Basically the only thing they had going for them via dayplay is that I got it into my head that the wolf was mafia and he was able to spin being 'mafia' and not a wolf into not getting lynched for a day
-> scum associatives were really, really, really good. They were able to utilize their numbers at endgame to get a townie lynched.
-> they weren't particularly hunting the seer and like I don't get why you're so fixated on the seer tbh.-
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Yeah I don't really have a read on esp but I agree with him here. I don't understand the case that's being pushed on him.In post 852, Espeonage wrote:There is a difference between forcing through a lynch on someone with reasoning based on falacies, and lynching someone you actually think is scum. You are doing the former.
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k, town lost that game because:In post 855, Fumuki wrote:It's not possible that after playing it in first-hand Espeonage didn't notice that Werewolves did hurt town A LOT, and if he did notice it, it makes little sense him saying that there's no difference between Werewolves and Mafia.
-> scum associatives were really really good
-> I let myself get into a 10 page 1v1 with a wolf which made the game impossible for like anyone to read
-> people wouldn't lynch the wolf despite me trying for four days
The wolf nk's really, really didn't impact anything much, besides for like the last night when the wolf needed to shoot mafia to continue the game but hit a townie.
In fact, one of the wolves was *caught on badly speculating on the purpose of the first nk*
Werewolves (and their kills) really didn't hurt town that much that game so can you stop pushing this narrative based on a game you weren't in that you didn't actually read? It's beginning to annoy me.
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Yes, this basicallyIn post 860, Espeonage wrote:What I was arguing is that mafia and ww are going to be ridiculously hard to tell apart.
If we all agree lynching town is worse than lynching scum.
Then isn't it the most obvious thing in the world that we prioritise lynching scum. And that by inhibiting your pool to your own interpretation of how one side will act, you increase the chance of a misslynch.
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I mean, yes, the odds of finding scum better than singleball if you pick a name out of a hat but what I meant is that in general scum lynches tend to have resistance, so even if you find scum it's not necessarily possible to get them lynched.In post 869, Sando wrote:
You had me up till here, but 7 v 5 is significantly better odds than town normally get D1, I think blind luck here is better lynch percentage than regular games where they actually scumhunt?In post 865, skitter30 wrote:lynching scum *in general* isn't nearly as easy as you're making it out to be and just saying 'we're going to lynch wolves today and tomorrow' like isn't going to make that happen and I'll be happy to just lynch not-town.
source: last jungle republic, sigh
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I don't see why this doesn't apply hereIn post 871, Fumuki wrote:Like I said, most scum tells and all comes from the fact that scum generally feel themselves as "outsiders"
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GoodpostingIn post 875, pinturicchio wrote:
Yes, I was getting the same vibeIn post 878, pinturicchio wrote:What I don't like about Duckling this game is his voting sequence: some of them seems to be rushed and without explanation, even when people is suspecting him, like trying to deviate attention quickly to another wagon.
yay I'm in real time again