Open 737: Stack the Deck (Game Over)

[ruru]

Tbh I'm exhausted trying to soft TPR too hard and eat a nightkill so you lazy fuckers don't have to sort me so I'll go try and solve this the good old fashioned way :c

it occurred to me that you might be doing this but I'm not very receptive to a50 gambits in the current gamestate (where scum could very well just choose not to shoot a scummy pr read)

[ruru]

?

[ruru]

Why are you so sure ruru's town?

believe me I haven't given the read out easily

I'm not arguing against the read I want to know your reasons if you please.

Because from my pov he's been given a case for you being scum but not really pushing it and like I expect you to be suspicious of him for that.

Why should I be suspicious of that?
also sorry to be evasive but ctrl+f of ruru in my iso will probably give a fair bit.

I thought you sorted me already

current scumread feels very agenda-y

[ruru]

rvsing for a week is not scum-indicative for enigma and you know that

[ruru]

my scumread on enigma in pyp was basically "rvses for a week, makes posts like 'scum or anti-town or noob? hmmm' rather than actually trying to sort people, half of his posts are pagetops/fluff"

it was wrong

[ruru]

I assume you're talking about 2442?

I would expect a meta-case to look something like "enigma does X more frequently as scum than as town" or "X is a general scumtell and enigma doesn't do it as town" and I don't feel like that was either of those

like if you want to talk about ISPing skygazer is a lot worse and I haven't felt much genuine scumhunting from your slot this game either

like, you realize bujaber is the other one pushing the argument that enigma is fluffing too much to be town and I'm scumreading both of you so enigma really strongly feels like designated mislynch to me

[ruru]

let's try this: why is enigma different from the other players who are ISPing and/or couldn't read ceejay on d1 such that you all of a sudden feel the need to allin push him?

[ruru]

insufficient participation

I feel like you're making this push because you're in danger of actually being lynched rather than because you believe it

[ruru]

what part of this feels like I don't believe it?

mostly the gamestate/timing of it

what made you lose your townread on me? that was also oddly timed.

[ruru]

that doesn't really answer the question

and I've been calling you scum all game so it can't be that

[ruru]

like why are you asking the questions you're asking and approaching me the way you're approaching me rn? most people would see this calibre of meltdown from me and attempt to work w it or something surely?? you're just like "na all fake ur a woofer" and it's not real. not even slightly.

being like ~as WIM as I am right now in jjh's game got me nightkilled in spite of having shit reads (mind I was also hardcleared by a flipped TPR).

because I think you're fully capable of faking wim/frustration/etc. as scum

to quote an example from the game you asked me to replace into:

like the grand sum of his contribution to this game has been replacing into a sketchy slot which Krazy put a heap of effort into tidying up, then charging in and telling people off for suspecting you of being scum fakeclaiming cop, push for a lynch on the actual TPR, suggest I'm scum for really fucking obviously play style related issues, still push me AFTER its become insanely clear he has no idea how I play this role (we can talk post-game if you still have issues with how I've played) and then like.... when he comes under pressure he squirms and stalls for time until Mumble who's probably his third buddy comes back

am I missing some fucking radiant townplay here or is this just dude just bleeding scum with his every single post?

the ONLY thing I can see myself being wrong on here is that he could be pocketing you (and earlier interactions do swing that way like to an extent) but meme is never town.

I've never felt this isolated in a game I have a literal townblock in

this type of posting is just not going to get me to townread you

I don't feel like you were even trying that hard in that game either (compared to say, 733, where you were the highest poster as scum)

[ruru]

fancy post when?

not before I'm lynched
I'm actually v/la over the weekend but won't qnnounce it because you fucks are mislynching me anyway

Just look for who should have known better and adjust reads accordingly lol

also, speaking of the a50 gambit:

when you soft vt on d1 here it makes me think your d3 pr soft was scum-motivated rather than nk-drawing-motivated, and you just took it back when you were called out on it

I don't default scumread a50 gambits but I find it kinda scummy in this context

[ruru]

I think you're scum trying to discredit my read on you

players better than me agreed 1095 was a scumtell in that game

ok

a) why isn't he town annoyed that you're tunneling him and trying to get you to stop?

b) why is 1095 being a scumtell in that game mean much for tw's alignment in this one?

NSG is being surprisingly incompetent from my pov, the worst is scum, mathdino should know better, IDK shit about ruru

what about my play has been incompetent, even from your own point of view?

are you saying that you've played to your town meta this game such that a knowledge of it would mean that i would be townreading you?

no, i really haven't been tunneling them, at least not in the sense of screaming for people to follow me.

you didn't answer my question about whether or not my vote is reasonable from my perspective. you saying that my vote is wrong just from your perspective is meaningless - if you're going to say that i'm being incompetent, then my vote has to be unreasonable, it can't just be wrong.

like, let's posit that there was some "theoretical scumgame" and a person played exactly to it, even if they were town. would you call someone who voted that person incompetent just for being wrong even if their reasons were right?

even from your own perspective of (theoretically) knowing that you're town, unless you think there are reasons that from

my

perspective i should be townreading you and i'm just not seeing those reasons, you can't say that i'm being incompetent for just being wrong. i'm not psychic.

I'm basically sheeping players who are better than me on it not being a towny thing to say

I've been searching and can't find a quote along the lines of "jjh sealed his own fate when he called nsg incompetent for scumreading him" from that game but I'm almost positive somebody said it too

[ruru]

someone please swing by here and say they actually think ruru is approaching this from a town point of view and trying to sort me and not stubbornly steering a lynch. please please please please please

no, I'm not really trying to sort you because I think you're just scum

[ruru]

like, you keep doing things that I think are either scummy in general or by your meta or that like specifically remind me of games where you were scum and not of games where you were town

I left you alone on d1 when you specifically said the way I was interacting with you was making it hard for you to play the game and you didn't get any townier after that

I kind of just want to lynch you

[ruru]

even from your own perspective of (theoretically) knowing that you're town, unless you think there are reasons that from

my

perspective i should be townreading you and i'm just not seeing those reasons, you can't say that i'm being incompetent for just being wrong. i'm not psychic.

[ruru]

you have no semblance of an ability to read me

I don't think you're bad at mafia. I think you're a wolf.

.

[ruru]

also:

which is a read you've been arrogantly tunnelling like a Good Townie all game instead of stopping and trying to engage with me and sort me

Nice.

pushing a scumread isn't exactly "arrogant" behavior so this post is pretty weird especially considering I've interacted with you a lot in this game.

Subject: Open 733 Mafia PT

oh he's an arrogant brat lol
ok I can get away with tunnelling this

I'm reminded of this now too

[ruru]

also I think it's agenda-y that you only started pushing me after I disapproved of your enigma case:

your new scumpool is {ruru, bujaber, enigma}
enigma is probably an easy lynch
bujaber is also probably an easy lynch, but you ignored him and pushed me instead even though I'm not an easy lynch and you've been townreading me all game which I think is kind of partnery

[ruru]

my posting this game is much closer to the border of my scumrange than my posting in that normal.

also this implies you haven't done anything this game that's out of your scumrange, yet still I'm being "incompetent" for scumreading you?

[ruru]

like you posted a questionable enigma case and a bunch of ate

that you implicitly admit is within your scumrange

(while acting condescending toward my meta argument that it's probably within your scumrange) and I didn't magically townread you afterward for it

please explain why that makes me scum.

[ruru]

... did he really replace? I thought that was "I'm done talking to you"

[ruru]

I'm tempted to townread the replace and [redacted] but it's actually difficult when I feel like his slot has been emitting scumtells all game so I'm really confused now

[ruru]

I also just don't understand why being misread by me would lead to

this

much drama all of a sudden from town.him other than some meta conditioning thing which the replace would be super dishonorable if it's not from genuine emotion so I think it kind of has to be genuine

[ruru]

probably he's scumreading me because he's frustrated with me which is probably nai rather than agenda-y

still not sure how I feel about the enigma push though

[ruru]

which is a read you've been arrogantly tunnelling like a Good Townie all game instead of stopping and trying to engage with me and sort me

Nice.

I still think this post is really bizarre

I made a lot of effort to get him to help me read him on d1 and he just constantly ignored or evaded my questions or like explicitly didn't want to talk to me

[ruru]

historically I've found that one or two towntells that make me question my scumread among many strong scumtells (pintu in 728, etc.) are usually just manufactured and wrong and that's making me really hesitant here but maybe in this case that doesn't apply and tw is actually just town playing really scummy (and doing an antitown a50 gambit that may have been going on for longer than just his pr soft today and isn't really clearly scum-indicative here because it's conceivable town play even though I think it's really bad in this context).

(I say two because in addition to my posts in this game there's another strong meta towntell I'm not saying and another strong meta scumtell I'm not saying on his slot currently)

like I know tw cares about his reputation and this sitewide replace would be so dishonorable as scum that he's basically trust telling and I think I'm more willing to believe that he wouldn't do this as scum and his play is just coincidentally super scummy to me

maybe his scumgame is good enough that the things I think are scumtells are nai and I've seen too much of his scumgame and not enough of his town game or something I don't know

[ruru]

I mean it's either genuine or has nothing to do with his feelings about this game

this post is bad.

VOTE: Irrelephant11

[ruru]

and I really think we should just massclaim today

[ruru]

I feel like it's... pretty clearly related to his feelings about the game? like site rules but yeah.

if I assume tw is town which is kind of where I'm at right now then obviously me continuing to tunnel the slot and talking about the possibility that tw just coincidentally doesn't feel like playing mafia right now is beneficial to scum

[ruru]

also hi performer I've tunneled your slot for like 100 pages but now I think you're town.

I'll summarize in a bit if nobody else wants to

I guess I need to re-re-evaluate enigma too

[ruru]

am I allowed to ask who asked to replace?

[ruru]

RR/TW is the scum team

Change my mind.

so, for people who haven't played with me and don't trust the skitter inno here is a quick guide to determining my alignment in this game:

this is how much I tend to post as scum: I was the 2nd lowest poster among living players in that game. I simply don't have the experience or mental stamina to make this many posts as scum. as town, I'm consistently among the top 5 posters, so obviously I would try to post more than that as scum now that I have meta, but I could easily get away with hanging around the #3-#5 slot in this game as scum without being at all scumread by postcount rather than being the loudest and most aggressive player in the game. the latter does not tend to come from inexperienced scum players and I've played one game of scum in my life.

if someone in this game is playing against their post count meta as scum it's korina>skitter>me.

I also wouldn't hard bus tw if we were s/s, because that would require a

lot

of successful theatre for us to not both get caught since we're both spammers. I'm on record as thinking this way about bussing

[ruru]

I actually don't mind GE got lynched, because he would have been a disaster to sort late game and would be unlikely to have been NKd anyways.

admittedly this could just be mirroring my thoughts on the matter, but this feels like a town post

[ruru]

@performer this was my d1 summary

d1:
lots of bad setup spec

skygazer hypo-traitor-claims her scumteam and lurks/shitposts, some people think it's scummy but her wagon dies out

skitter/ruru tvt for a while
a50 acts lynchbaity and gets some questionable votes on him
vex/a50/skitter/ruru eventually elected townbloc

I try to policy lynch frank(ejji(you)), not really strongly scumreading him, get spooked by how easy lynching him seems

Sky ellitells, interest in lynching renewed
tw replaces sky, gets tunneled by me+skitter
tw pushes ceejay, a50 agrees ceejay is scum, ceejay gets lynched

half the game flakes out

a50 shot

(the "you" here refers to irrel)

[ruru]

D2
GE plays bad, doesn't really defend himself, gets lynched.

this is actually an adequate summary of d2, not much happened

I guess it's also notable that I thought tw bussed ceejay based on some meta reasons and said as much at the start of d2

and enigma also had a lot of scumreads on d2

d3 you should probably just read?

[ruru]

I think lynching {bujaber, irrel, enigma} probably wins the game and in the cases where it doesn't massclaiming today is better than not massclaiming today

[ruru]

that shouldn't need explanation

[ruru]

or like if you're asking the original why of why I put you there (independently of who you want to lynch) it's mostly poe?

I don't think you wanting to lynch {bujaber, enigma} is particularly scum-indicative but I don't think it magically townclears you either

[ruru]

I dunno it feels obvious that it's one of the two pairs

[ruru/enigma, tw/bujaber]

I said earlier but it also feels for some reason like it shouldn't be so obvious
Like I townread the worst and ruru's play for similar reasons (unlikely to be partners with the flipped slot, lots of posting and effort) and scumread them for similar reasons (annoyingly keeping some things to themselves, acknowledging general lack of WIM for most game days)
And I feel like I'm being asked to choose between the two of you and maybe there's a right choice but maybe it's neither...

posts like these don't necessarily make me think you're hard pushing lynches on the scumpool, even if I believed that doing so was clearing

[ruru]

it's mostly because I have better reasons to townread the other players

we can ignore the post about tw I guess

the post I just quoted for example does feel scummy, you have some townish posts, but nothing that I don't think you could be faking as scum

[ruru]

maybe {irrel green, bujaber red} causes me to re-think tw

but I don't know what I'm supposed to be re-thinking because we can't talk about it so lol

[ruru]

massclaim today might seem mechanically stupid but I have good reasons for it

[ruru]

just claim please.

I vote bujaber > irrel > enigma > alonzo > korina > skitter

[ruru]

I'm actually not sure if no lynch is a thing even if we know there's no vig/roleblocker, considering the possibility of scum shooting traitor?

[ruru]

I'm bodyguard lol

[ruru]

I didn't use my ability either night

I don't value creature's life over my own

[ruru]

so tonight what will you do then??

Likely die

[ruru]

probably some people would want to policy lynch me or something

[ruru]

I view protecting an investigative as higher utility than protecting an ic because the former doesn't actually change who scum have to shoot and the latter gives a result on a null-ish player

not to mention creature wasn't doing anything during the day and so the order people get shot in matters

I would only ever go on creature here if I was widely scumread

[ruru]

VOTE: bujaber

[ruru]

Why would you suspect there would be an investigative to protect? What if there wasn't??

I consider dying for creature negative utility, period, because I don't get mislynched either and he wasn't playing the game

it's not about saving my bg ability it's about not dying for a player who isn't doing anything.

[ruru]

so, I still think bujaber is scum

bujaber is regularly a highposter as town and even excluding the replacement and v/la timings his posts per day are just lower than expected and it feels like he's not really doing much

despite this, other people who also weren't doing much (gamma/enigma) had much more shade thrown on them which makes me think it's a scum agenda thing.

oh, and I guess gamma also attempted to cfd bujaber d1 so there's that

Spoiler:

Can't blame skitter for just sheeping.

Took a long time for y'all to see it.
VOTE: gamma
L-1

this is a scummy post

the bolded doesn't sound like town talking to a scumread

I feel like tw should be easier to townread by now. I'm getting paranoid because imo his strength lies in knowing how to not appear scummy moreso than trying to look townie. That's my impression from giyga's curse. He won because people didn't really have a reason to suspect him.

this post is dubious

I guess something along these lines:

{Creature, me}
{Vex}
{A50, skitter}
{Ruru, TW}
-----null line----
{Gamma, cjv}
{Enigma}
{HWS, Frank}

Lol who puts themselves in their own readlist

Did I hit a nerve?

this feels like an over-acted response, he had also called enigma a policy lynch iirc and enigma's post isn't scummy at all

it reminds me of some of the fake scumhunting I did as scum where I just threw shade on things in a way that isn't useful to sorting people

[ruru]

enigma probably isn't getting lynched without either {alonzo redflip, any groupscum flip} because of alonzo's inno

bujaber is very likely flipping scum and I don't think we should lynch anyone with less chance of being scum because rb gets a lot more useful with only one scum remaining

bujaber green -> TILT
bujaber group -> re-eval enigma
irrel red -> re-eval alonzo (based on hws's weird d1 associative with gamma+frank)
bujaber group, irrel green-> re-eval performer? (based on lol can't talk about it haha xd!)

something like this?

[ruru]

actually I don't want to lynch bujaber yet

I want to drag out the day for more content from performer

UNVOTE:

[ruru]

VOTE: Enigma

That leaves {ele, performer} as last scum.

[ruru]

oh maybe that's not what I thought it meant.

[ruru]

I don't crumb, but there's this if you want to try to read into it:

this game feels like a loss.

It's semi-mountainous and creatue rolling ic is negative utility because he'd probably be doing more if he was just vt

my mindset was different from other players' because I knew we probably had 0-1 useful prs

[ruru]

Also @ruru did you respond to my question about how you read me/tw interactions post-claim yet?

honestly the worst's slot is so bizarre that I have no useful comment on those interactions

at the time it felt like you might be softing pr by scumreading him and so I thought he was rolefishing, but I don't particularly think you scumreading him there and then claiming vt makes you much more likely to be scum

[ruru]

I still kinda think performer is traitor if not town so bujaber wouldn't necessarily have partner tells anyway

I just don't really see a world where tw quits mafia sitewide over a scumread on scum.him though

[ruru]

I somewhat scumread the softclaim because I think it benefits scum.him more than town.him in this particular gamestate but in a general sense softing pr to draw the nk is something he would do as town and I think other things were much more scum-indicative for him

[ruru]

also I don't think it's against the rules to siteflake as either alignment? and I don't feel like he

actually

trust told or that that method of reading his slot is any more shady than, say, ellitell; I'm just calling it that for convenience

like I think it's a case of what penguin would call "having knowledge of a player's meta": everyone likes to win, but I don't think tw as a person would intentionally decrease the quality of all his games for the other players in them by siteflaking for the purpose of towntelling in this game, which means his outrage was probably genuine, which means he's probably town

I've carefully written this post in a way that I hope doesn't break site rules but anyway that's how I feel about it. it's not a simple case of "tw wouldn't tactically replace as scum".

I would still feel a lot better if I had independently good reasons to tr performer

[ruru]

alonzo's claim would look like a 67% play for scum (assuming he thought there's no bg/vig) to not get cc'd

the slots it could potentially un-conftown in the current situation aren't very mislynchable, and scum would be expecting {tracker, gc, rb}, meaning if they wanted to try to mislynch an un-conftowned {skitter, me} they would also be planning on leaving an investigative alive overnight

since that's not a good motivation to fakeclaim, probably the only way alonzo is scum here is if he innoed his partner which feels pointlessly risky to me when alonzo wasn't in the lynchpool anyway

[ruru]

I don't think alonzo should telegraph his target today because it's a disaster if bujaber is town and scum recruited traitor, not to mention it gives scum more information on who to shoot

alonzo is living tomorrow to claim tonight's target unless he roleblocks me so there's no benefit in telegraphing

(and if I'm scum somehow thinking solo pushing for massclaim a day early and fakeclaiming bg is a good idea, then I'm shooting someone other than alonzo tonight 100% of the time anyway)

[ruru]

okay I guess I'll ask this now:

I'm starting to wonder if the remaining scum are a certain pair in here.

do you tend to make this kind of statement as town?

[ruru]

Also, I was wondering if it was skitter & enigma in my 2688 - but that is no longer valid. I now am thinking it's buj & one other person whose ISO revealed catching up, doing iioa posts today, not voting buj but voting you after your reveal, and even wanting alonz/me/GE (green flip) to die.

A lot of my town meta is thinking out loud to process things.

I guess I was asking specifically about not naming names

[ruru]

Ways to discern whether or not Performer is scum:
-He'll mess around, probably in a subtle way

-You get the feeling that he's purposefully being mysterious
-He'll fake confusion

-He'll poke at random posts
-He's brief
-He lurks

the reason I ask is that the bolded are pinging me somewhat:
- you do sound purposefully mysterious with some of your scumreads
- I don't specifically think your confusion about the setup is fake, but it's hard for me to evaluate. part of why I don't want the day to end yet is that I'd like to see what your posting is like

after

you've figured out all the setup stuff or whatever

so I'm wondering whether confidential scumreads are part of your mysterious-town-range

[ruru]

mm...

performer still probably town, but I still want to drag out the day

[ruru]

- ruru + alonzo

this is probably a bit indicative of faked reads

[ruru]

hmm

I just realized tw's a50 gambit would be pretty risky from traitor (especially not knowing there's a roleblocker)

or like I didn't believe he could be a pr at all ever after some of his d1 posting but obviously if he's doing it then regardless of his alignment he believes it's believable which means from his perspective he would believe there's a risk of getting shot

[ruru]

I think losing a nightkill is pretty bad for scum (especially in evens)

[ruru]

it's not as strong a statement as it could be because leaving him (who might be a mislynchable pr or might be traitor) alive is a possibility for scum

but anyway it makes the softclaim less pro-scum than it otherwise might be

I would also consider that traitor wouldn't know how many prs there are, and it probably? only stops him from getting lynched if scum picked 0 mods

[ruru]

[ruru]

I don't think skitter defends her partners more than she has to as scum

she also probably doesn't push me d1 as scum

she hates pushing things she doesn't believe in and she's generally willing to bus

she's also town by postcount in this game

so like skitter+enigma is not a scumteam

[ruru]

After a bit of rereading ISOs, I find it very interesting that korina, skitter, and enigma don't sr one another strongly . In fact, I’ve seen multiple times they tr each other while being ok with other people being lynched.

what does this mean to you?

[ruru]

rb guilties should be taken with a grain of salt (especially if the target is claimed in advance)

rb innos are the useful result

[ruru]

After a bit of rereading ISOs, I find it very interesting that korina, skitter, and enigma don't sr one another strongly . In fact, I’ve seen multiple times they tr each other while being ok with other people being lynched.

what does this mean to you?

[ruru]

also @performer I'm interested in who you think is the enigma partner because lynching alonzo's semi-inno today is questionable at best

[ruru]

enigma what do you think of tw's replace

[ruru]

hmm

dead players' scumpools:

a50: {irrel, maybe alonzo, not bujaber, 99% not performer}
gamma: {performer, maybe enigma, not bujaber}
creature: {irrel, maybe alonzo, not performer, probably not enigma, maybe me lol}

this is probably an argument in favor of cfding irrel

it's also probably worth noting that I think the only player who had a real scumread on hws d1 was me, and a50 and creature just had hws in their poe for lack of content

alonzo is very probably town for that and other reasons so if town are in {irrel, bujaber} then I think it's between performer / enigma

based on what I've seen of bujaber's meta he has a decently systematic approach and I find it hard to believe he's going on about prs faking vt and just voting alonzo's inno and whatever as town

[ruru]

I don't know how to evaluate:

- performer voting alonzo's inno here
- performer suggesting alonzo telegraph his target tonight (I would hard sr myself for that suggestion and it could be scum trying to set up a fake guilty tomorrow and then mislynching alonzo or something but he's not me so I don't know)
- performer otherwise mostly playing his town meta and I also townread his postcount and his wildly fluctuating reads
- whatever chance of tw siteflaking based on nai things (mafia the game is generically too stressful / taking too much time / distracting him from work / etc.) or it being an incredibly dishonorable tactical replace
- me hard sring skygazer+tw other than that

but overall I get the sense that performer isn't an incredibly dangerous scum player and that he's really probably just town and maybe enigma is scum before performer is if we flip a groupscum

enigma still doesn't feel at all like scum and feels very much like designated mislynch, I have a decently good reason to believe his irl business is genuine/nai

I really think it's just bujaber+irrel

[ruru]

rb guilties should be taken with a grain of salt (especially if the target is claimed in advance)

rb innos are the useful result

this is actually a really big deal and I'm going to be super annoyed if people ignore it when I'm dead

there are a lot of situations where scum are incentivized to no-shoot

alonzo telegraphing his target should be the exceptional case and it should be understood that it's literally only an attempt to get an inno if scum shoot him and that it means nothing else

[ruru]

alonzo telegraphing his target should be the exceptional case

okay maybe I don't mean this

after I'm dead it's probably good

[ruru]

for tonight?

[ruru]

I guess I would pick a random target in irrel > enigma (if bujaber flips group) > performer? with irrel somewhat more likely to be chosen and performer less likely

[ruru]

lynching enigma before lylo when a traitor flip would clear him makes more sense if you're super certain he's scum and that's not really consistent with thinking about things like fake vt claims and me being scum and alonzo being scum and you haven't sold me on the strength of your scumread

like your list of scumteams felt like it came from someone who isn't trying to solve the game (you're considering a highly implausible me+alonzo team + fake vt claim but you were willing to just say my townflip clears alonzo when it doesn't, at all?)

at the same time you want to lynch enigma today which, if you're taking a strictly mechanical poe approach to the game where you townread two players and lynch the rest, is the worst possible lynch for town.you (and the best possible lynch for scum.you)

also I don't think skitter is getting lynched so it doesn't matter whether you have a 100% tr or a 95% tr on her

[ruru]

like, all your text about skitter could essentially by condensed into one line that "skitter is town because she trust told" and everything else about how hypothetically she would be spooky if she hadn't is filler, assuming you believe that she trust told

compared to I don't think you've really written much about, say, my alignment since d1 where you had me as the nullest of nulltowns and you would think that (before my claim at least) sorting me would be a priority considering how controlling I've been in this game

I need help sorting tw/ruru

I mean there's like only 3 choices for me: enigma, phantismo and ruru. Ruru my gut says town and nobody apart from elephant exoressed a scumread on her... If she's scum here she probably just wins

this lacks town, especially from someone who just lost to a deepwolf

[ruru]

for the record I don't think anti-associatives between irrel and bujaber should be taken very seriously

bujaber because I know he effectively manipulates associatives as scum
irrel because he's often pushed a mindset of "scum push town, town push scum, people hard defending each other are probably partners" that I find overly simplistic to be coming from a competent town player but that I think scum often like to use to manipulate because they know how flips will look

[ruru]

This is probably my most frustrating town game that I've played in terms of getting townread to the extent I feel I deserve but I digress
I asked for people's reads on my preds because I can't believe they were so scummy that I can never be townread because "well, preds"
But if that's the case just flip me before lylo I'm probably just in the way at this point regardless of how helpful I personally feel I can be

so, why specifically should I be townreading you? effort isn't ai for you

I never had a strong sr on your slot, frank was nullscum, ejji was nulltown, so for me at least it's not really about your preds (although of course I'm considering the fact that a50 et al. were sring frank more strongly than I was)

[ruru]

I'm not scumreading your hop on to the tw wagon but I'm definitely not townreading it either - it seems pretty plausible for like any combination of your and his roles - but I am kind of scumreading that you (initially) didn't want to re-eval after the replace and I think that's somewhat indicative of scum you + town him

[ruru]

After a bit of rereading ISOs, I find it very interesting that korina, skitter, and enigma don't sr one another strongly . In fact, I’ve seen multiple times they tr each other while being ok with other people being lynched.

what does this mean to you?

performer can you answer this?

[ruru]

I don't care if this is AtE I'd rather my slot be sorted now than be the game losing lylo lynch

the game is likely poe'd if bujaber flips scum (and the order of lynches matters because of alonzo's ability to generate innos) so this suggestion is kind of ridiculous if you actually believe bujaber is scum

[ruru]

intent

[ruru]

oh enigma beat me to it

[ruru]

"if you [are town and] actually believe bujaber is scum" was the implication.

[ruru]

(and it's not really related to bujaber's flip, it's based on what town.you should be thinking about his flip because it would be gamethrowing if you/bujaber are t/s)

[ruru]

so, irrel is doing the "lynch me now" thing

I think it's >rand scum because it can come from {scum, tilted town} but it can't come from rational town because rational town would want a scumflip today at all costs so that alonzo can generate true innos

[ruru]

i don't think he's asking to be lynched now? he's asking to be sorted before he gets lynched (in the future) since he feels like he's on the bottom of everyone's scumlists without a case on him

like i don't really think he's expecting/acting like he wants to get lynched today

i also pretty much always immediately read ate as tilted town; that's the kind of thing i need a delay of a few days irl to try to read so i'm not really going to commit either way to that rn

but yeah i mean i kinda agree he obviously isn't being rational!town rn but why are you going to scum over tilted!town?

okay I kind of interpreted it as him asking to be wagoned now (asking people to vote him, saying he doesn't want to be left to lylo, etc.)

I may have made tilt sound like a binary thing, but it's not: I can imagine situations where he's as tilted as his posts convey, and yet he's still aware that lynching scum today is extremely important, and so he would hold back from posting like this

being able to rule out those situations makes it somewhat more likely to be scum ate (although I think it's more

bad

than scummy, I do think it's slightly scummy)

I don't think I'm unreasonably biased against self-pushing/voting either: see AP in purgatory where I started out scumreading him but I thought it was a serious towntell contextually

[ruru]

"I hate this game"

[ruru]

those are my last words (the things I wanted to say before day end were a couple pages ago)

[ruru]

I'm bored

VOTE: bujaber

[ruru]

VOTE: irrel

[ruru]

bujaber kept defending sky's slot for being too scummy to be scum

I thought it was dubious in terms of his own alignment but I'm not sure how much that says about the slot: it might mean he was traitor-reading it (which doesn't necessarily mean it's actually traitor), it might mean he was trying to leave a weird associative (and I know bujaber likes to mess with associatives as scum), it might mean he had tmi on a townslot, etc.

[ruru]

probably daytalk because I feel like the other mods are probably quantifiably bad to take

[ruru]

do we think mwnn+antihero take daytalk though?

mwnn was busy irl, antihero was either busy or stopped wanting to play the game because his partner was afk (doesn't seem too unlikely, I've experienced that feeling)

I feel like that's not a pair that values daytalk above giving town a pr

[ruru]

oh, right

[ruru]

does it even matter what order we lynch in

I guess it does, if scum want to nk then we get an inno on someone in the scumpool

so I guess theoretically we should lynch whoever is least useful to gamesolving? which is probably performer since he hasn't read the game

but then there's also that irrel is the player I'm most worried about convincing everyone he's town after I'm shot, and I'm also scumreading him most

[ruru]

so, the thing I thought was a traitor-or-town-slip could also come from recruited traitor

after rereading it I'm actually not sure I believe groupscum wouldn't write it anymore (mostly because in his 2nd post he's talking about a pair, he never really heavily implied 3 people were involved in the decision)

I still think the siteflake is a serious towntell though

[ruru]

also performer's felt pretty present and bold for a scum replace-in and his scum meta is lurky

[ruru]

unfortunately happily ever after is good for scum so we won't get anywhere with nolynching

[ruru]

I actually had a theory that the ejji hammer (which I originally tred for being so hesitant-sounding? like he thought it might flip town and he might get mislynched for it) could be traitor signaling but it only works if mwnn+antihero would take daytalk which seems dubious

[ruru]

Do you see this in the rules? Some setups have this cycle result in a town win, I'm not seeing anything about it in the rules for this game

interesting, I thought it was always a draw

[ruru]

Alonzo - who did you target?

Who did you target?

*shrug*

I interpreted this as a guilty and could see performer doing the same

anyway let's not lynch anyone until we get a mod answer on happily ever after

[ruru]

Lynch irrelephant

[ruru]

I mean if scum is in {you, enigma, performer} then lynching those three wins the game even if alonzo literally goes afk

skitter is 99% town

korina is 95% town

if alonzo is scum he gamethrew

if I'm scum I gamethrew

[ruru]

I would've shot last night, btw. There were good odds I'd be targeted based on what people told Alonzo to do, so what would be the point in holstering?

?

[ruru]

enigma pretty much has to be town for the same reasons I am regarding night actions + BuJ wanted him dead for most of the game.

also I also feel like this is another low-nuance "scum lynch town, town lynch scum" type read (I do think enigma is probably town, but your level of certainty is doubly strange to me considering you scumread enigma on night actions + posting alone and I don't, and I still haven't reached it after bujaber's flip)

I even mentioned a couple times that bujaber likes to mess with associatives as scum

his d1 case on enigma was "policy lynch for pagetopping" which is never ever going to get someone actually lynched so at least some of it could be distancing without necessarily having intent to bus either

[ruru]

ok i'm willing to entertain the idea of bujaber/tw but basically i need to do the research myself if htat makes sense to really get a feel for how likely it is

fwiw I believed in this scumteam for most of day 2-3 and I don't think there are particularly clearing interactions

[ruru]

I use it extremely literally in my own case: yes, in theory, I could hard bus bujaber and fake claim bg because wifom and then make the game nightless (sacrificing the most overpowered ability in the game) and then drive lynches on town like 4 times in a row or something but I only do that if I'm extremely confident in my ability to towntell which is never the case when I roll scum and if I'm not then it's actually just gamethrowing.

alonzo and I were both generally townread already so there's no point for either of us in poeing the game further; fakeclaiming only really makes sense for either of us if we planned to stop the bujaber lynch so as to make rb/tracker innos remain ambiguous (and I already knew there's an rb when I claimed bg)

alonzo had a 1/3 chance to instantly lose to a cc considering I would never let bujaber live to endgame, and he wasn't lined up to be lynched, so that's objectively townreadable as well

alonzo would also be expecting an investigative role above him in the claim order; if someone had useful n1/n2 gc/tracker results (for example, tracking alonzo doing nothing) the game could also just be mechanically solved by his claim

so like basically it's not impossible but it's just exceedingly unlikely

[ruru]

Lynch irrel

[ruru]

@ruru imagine tw’d rep out was NAI. Who would you want to lynch/how would you read the slot?

I might still lynch you here because I don't think performer ever escapes the lynch if I'm shot, but I think you could

I'm scumreading performer's slot (almost entirely because of sky+tw) significantly more than yours if I discount the replace

but like, why does this question matter?

it doesn't matter that you're personally upset that {you haven't done anything super difficult to fake, tw's replace is being townread, other players are bad at scum, your preds were widely scumread, ...} and that these things lead to you being a good lynch. performer is either getting innoed or lynched before the game ends if you flip town so if your complaint is that performer is obvscum it really doesn't matter whether or not people are ignoring your arguments right now.

[ruru]

“Why does this question matter?”
Because I’m curious? Like why do you have to spend the time taking apart and scumreading every word I say when I’ve already agreed to get lynched?

Have you considered that the reason I’m angry is that you haven’t bothered interacting with me like I’m a townie for like even a second

this simply isn't true.

I don’t care if you lynch me first; I agree that might be the right strategy fypov and I’ve already WIFOM’d up my slot by saying as such

then why are you still ateing and making it annoying to lynch you? like I don't believe that you're actually ignorant of what you're doing here.

I want to know if you agree that town!me means scum!Performer

I don't have this level of certainty and no amount of wallcases on the subject is going to change that because I already agree that xyz from the slot is super scummy and I'm townreading it for other reasons

performer is getting innoed or lynched and that's all that matters.

Like I’m just trying to engage you on the content I wrote? To see if you think it makes sense?

I already agree that xyz from the slot is super scummy (excluding highly circumstancial things like "bujaber told tw to scumread me") and you know that I was scumreading the slot long before you so there's nothing to engage.

I look a lot less stupid if performer is actually scum, it's not like I'm purposefully ignoring the possibility

[ruru]

I want to know if you agree that town!me means scum!Performer

also about this, I think it's scummy that you keep insisting on performer being scum but you haven't really bothered much to argue your idea that enigma is locktown after I criticised it.

if you're dying town the former isn't changing anything lynchpool-wise (except possibly getting you off the hook today) but the latter should, from your perspective, be a big deal because it increases the probability of you winning against {korina, me}.

[ruru]

I think the ate is by definition survivalistic because the content of his posts doesn't change ev at all if he's lynched today

- none of his posts are "you have to lynch ruru if I flip town"
- none of his posts are "you have to lynch korina if I flip town"
- none of his posts are "never lynch/rb enigma if I flip town"

these are the things that actually change ev for town.him but he's not arguing them because they're hard to argue compared to just getting people to lynch performer today.

[ruru]

also the fact that you and skitter are townreading his policy-worthy ate is +++ for me to go allin on pushing irrel's lynch today

I'd really prefer to skip that part and just lynch him?

also performer's pred ate'd better if you want to townread ate, it's just not in the front of your mind

90% of irrel's ate is basically complaining that the game isn't fair in ways that could easily apply to either alignment

[ruru]

Lynch irrel

[ruru]

=> bujaber strongly wanting no-lynch + no-mass-claim to give prs another night may indicate that he thought that the prs were not really a threat to them? not sure. that would point to a very highly townread partner; someone like korina maybe

either that or he was afraid of a scum lynch making {rb, tracker} give real innos or he thought he knew who the PRs are already (based on hypo-innos, etc.) and could just shoot them which would lose town the opportunity for rb to telegraph target assuming no bg

or he just wanted to propose the mechanically-correct-looking thing and/or soft pr

[ruru]

ruru: [irrel, alonzo]
alonzo: [null, enigma]
irrel: [null, performer]
korina: [skitter, bujaber]
enigma: [skitter, null?]
performer: [bujaber, korina]
skitter: [alonzo, enigma]

[ruru]

so one of the several reasons I valued massclaim so much is that I wanted to force scum to commit to their claims especially since with my ability there's an extra night where prs don't get sorted by the nk

my push on tw was half legitimately wanting to lynch him and half just wanting to make sure he claimed first to reduce the amount of things that can happen because I didn't believe his soft claim at all and I didn't expect him to get shot as town either (like having 3-4 pr claims the day before lylo and at least some of them being scummy and people don't want to lynch scum for whatever reason, also that situation is annoying for me because people might think it's scummy if I'm claiming bg later on when it's less risky for scum.me and could be gaining me a lynch on a tpr)

I probably would've still lynched bujaber first after forcing the vt claim out of tw (because of the townslip thing) even if he didn't replace I think?

anyway from my perspective people committing to claims was super valuable and even without knowing my role I could also see scum in a bad position not wanting massclaim specifically because it takes away those day before lylo fakeclaiming gambits that might improve their wr from like zero -> low?

and bujaber was looking like a viable pr but with the order I wanted he wasn't in a good position to fakeclaim (which, interestingly, if he rolecopped a pr by way of shooting them, decreases the risk of getting instantly cced when fakeclaiming on later days)

also if one scum is among the probable d3 lynches (tw/bujaber/enigma?) then even a widely townread third scum would still be afraid of what looks like two investigative prs/poe so I'm not really sure how indicative bujaber's no massclaim thing is of there being a deepwolf

[ruru]

tldr I'm not sure how much can really be concluded from bujaber wanting no massclaim.

[ruru]

VOTE: ruru

Alright.

P-Edit: Creature was the IC. Obviously BG would be on the confirmed townie.

Ruru, please tell me you are not braindead and that you understand that having a confirmed townie alive is way more important than having a BG alive.
Obviously, when you claim, you get killed, therefore, your maximum potential is to delay a night-kill on another PR.

btw, I think this is town and it's one of the main reasons I'm not terribly suspicious of korina's post-d1 play

[ruru]

I could maybe be convinced to swap enigma and korina in the scumpool? like I think enigma's been super town today while the other three haven't

[ruru]

I have no idea what this is, please explain.

hypo-innos

[ruru]

waiting on Alonzo as well

if alonzo rbed you, what would you conclude? if alonzo rbed someone else, what would you conclude?

from your perspective it should be confirmed that scum are interested in nokilling so I'm not sure what you think alonzo's result means.

[ruru]

Get me out of this game

Get me out of this game

Get me out of this game

Get me out of this game

Get me out of this game

[ruru]

do you know why alonzo thinks you're out of your scumrange?

[ruru]

The part I bolded about your reply, is very odd , so I'm trying to understand it. You're saying that I somehow know they're no killing?

as for this, you would know scum nokilled n3 (establishing it as a thing scum believe is good)

[ruru]

it's kind of weird that creature got shot if I had the game solved on d2

performer still feels like the lynch though

[ruru]

I think the double guilty on performer is actually decently scum-indicative of him, and to a lesser extent alonzo, for reasons somewhat specific to the situation/timing of said guilties

[ruru]

also I'm kind of hard sring his preds less one specific thing so there's that.

[ruru]

VOTE: performer

[ruru]

Where's nm when you need him

[ruru]

it's probably slightly better if we wait for alonzo's inno

[ruru]

Also I hate this game

[ruru]

who did you rb?

[ruru]

I figured as much

[ruru]

okay here are my notes, I didn't want to post until you gave your result although I'm not sure it really makes a difference here

Enigma:

it makes perfect sense for enigma to shoot korina:
- alonzo rbs korina -> nk doesn't matter
- alonzo doesn't rb enigma -> he almost certainly rbs korina, korina is conftowned

Alonzo:

it makes sense for alonzo to shoot+"rb" korina because it's a plausible way to avoid giving an inno.

but, from scum.alonzo's perspective:
- he'd probably be the lynch today if there wasn't a bg and he was still alive
- he'd risk getting cced and instantly losing
- he would be a traitor with no mods, but he wouldn't know that, so he also has to deal with the possibility of there being multiple prs in {korina, ruru, skitter}
- he'd know korina isn't gc, possibly not tracker/rb if bujaber did the n2 kill, but skitter and I were both viable investigatives
- he'd risk getting shot by groupscum if the bujaber lynch didn't go through

so, there's basically no way alonzo is scum unless he just does things for the lulz

lynching alonzo is also mechanically -ev because we still have 50% ev if we mislynch anyone but him today (he would be mechanically conftown by the game not ending)

skitter:

- would probably have shot me by now
- or enigma last night, who was probably the most likely rb
- she's also out of her scum meta

---

about me and alonzo being alive, I guess it's less notable than it looks:

if scum wanted to kill alonzo they would have to kill me n3 (-> 5:1 + 1 inno) and then kill alonzo n4 (-> 3:1 + 2 innos) and there's no chance to shoot the conftowns or get lucky and shoot alonzo's target or shoot strategically in all that so it would be the towniest VT vs. scum 1v1 on d5 even assuming they don't get lynched before that

nokilling to create some wifom about the pr claims seems like a plausible alternative especially for enigma who was probably going to get lynched if he shot in {me, skitter}

both of us have been defending enigma all game and a lot of dead players (gamma, tw/performer, frank/ejji/irrel before he started tunneling performer) are scumreading him so there's also that

[ruru]

my gut says alonzo but my gut's been wrong like three times this game already so i prob shouldn't listen to it that much

are you gut scumreading him for anything other than being alive?

[ruru]

alonzo do you have any meta case that you would definitively not gamethrow by fakeclaiming rb as scum here?

I really feel like scum trying to make the claim look bad with nokilling is more plausible than alonzo gamethrowing and if we can bop alonzo we can basically prove he didn't fakeclaim.

[ruru]

Whats your read on Enigma ruru?

you seemed happier to push Irrel/Performer wagons last coupe of days?

I mean I've been townreading everyone here but I have better reasons to tr you and skitter

and yes I expected the game to be over by now

[ruru]

[ruru]

Enigma:

it makes perfect sense for enigma to shoot korina:
- alonzo rbs korina -> nk doesn't matter
- alonzo doesn't rb enigma -> he almost certainly rbs korina, korina is conftowned

you meant 'alonzo rbs enigma' there, right?

so you're saying his motive to kill korina is to prevent him from being conftowned?
ie, say, he would have otherwise shot me and alonzo rb'd korina and korina is now conftown, right?

yes

- he'd know korina isn't gc, possibly not tracker/rb if bujaber did the n2 kill, but skitter and I were both viable investigatives

explain this again?

by hypo-innos

- he would be a traitor with no mods, but he wouldn't know that, so he also has to deal with the possibility of there being multiple prs in {korina, ruru, skitter}
- he'd know korina isn't gc, possibly not tracker/rb if bujaber did the n2 kill, but skitter and I were both viable investigatives
- he'd risk getting shot by groupscum if the bujaber lynch didn't go through

why are you assuming traitor!alonzo and not groupscum-alonzo-with-daytalk?

there's no 4th pr claim

[ruru]

how am I

not

town? do you seriously think this is my scumgame?

[ruru]

no, not unless I was super stressed out and not thinking straight

[ruru]

but the whole massclaim thing was my idea and I was widely townread so...

also my claim order ensured bujaber got lynched d3 and didn't get to fakeclaim so I was setting up this poe situation where my claim looks weird which is way harder than I'd have to try as scum

like I could literally just push massclaim because almost everyone seemed to agree, claim vt, bus bujaber, shoot alonzo, lynch irrel+performer, and the game would be over by now instead of 3:1

also as scum I would've shot you or lynched you by now

[ruru]

so, I don't really understand scum's play in this game

but I don't think nokilling two nights in a row is as bad as it looks for {enigma, you}

scum didn't have many good options after d3

like I don't know really what

should

have been done either and some paranoia situation where the players who are alive are alive seems viable to me

[ruru]

I admit that "alonzo gamethrew" would perfectly explain our current situation and why enigma has felt like designated mislynch all game

[ruru]

have I mentioned I hate this game

[ruru]

to avoid having a rb guilty on him

this doesn't work that way, it's not tracker

his decision only matters if he's not the target

-> by giving 'rb-guilties' he got at least one mislynch out of it, and again, the fact that there hasn't been a rb inno anywhere (or even a demonstrable rb in 5 nights) is incredibly strange.

I'm not sure that non-alonzo scum sacrifice as much by nokilling as you think, an inno and an nk roughly cancel each other out when there's one scum remaining

like compare lynch+nokill+lynch+nokill vs. lynch+kill+inno and they're quite similar

the complications are: rb target getting shot, whether or not the kill is on literal conftown, whether or not scum want to kill for a reason other than towniness, specifics of evens/odds, etc.

whether or not alonzo is scum, scum might value the lack of inno more highly because an inno is literal conftown rather than like my slot or whatever

also suppose scum for example expect us to fight to the death in xylo based on our d1: they might prefer nokilling because lynching removes scummy players while shooting replaces towny players with conftown scummy players, but maybe the conftown scummy players are more likely to choose correctly in xylo

like I think it's quite notable that various dead players are scumreading enigma and we've been his biggest defenders

-> however to fake an rb on enigma n2 he had to be banking on enigma not being a pr

oh, I don't think enigma gave a hypo-inno d2 so maybe this is a reasonable assumption

-> like from scum!alonzo's perspective: he's avoided giving innos for three nights and got the performer mislynch out of the double 'rb-guilty'

I agree that innoing a dead player is scumreadable and that it points to {enigma, alonzo} but it doesn't really point to alonzo more than enigma because enigma would know 100% how to get alonzo to inno a dead player

like I mentioned, killing and nokilling both lead to a similarly hard game for scum and I don't think one of them is clearly better here?

[ruru]

I guess I left my underlying idea mostly unstated as to why I'm saying these things:

yes, alonzo's results are

weird

and unlikely

we need to establish more than them just being

weird

, we need to establish that it's

weirder

for town.alonzo than for scum.alonzo and I think non-alonzo scum have plenty of motivation to nokill too for exactly the same reasons

in sky's vaping mafia there was a town fruit vendor who targeted two dead players on n1/n2, like these things do happen

and I'm willing to consider individually whether xyz is scum-indiciative but I think lumping everything into "no observable action on five nights" is sort of bad because they're not all the same circumstance, like I do think innoing a dead player last night is legitimately scum-indicative but they're not all that

[ruru]

also yeah I don't understand this game at all.

like ever since the tw replace the game just makes no sense, it legitimately should have been nm+tw+bujaber by posting

anyway enigma scum feels wrong but so does everything else:

1. you became a highposting scum overnight
- granted I think out of game you exaggerate how incompetent you are at scum, I don't think pushing things like you believe them really

hardclears

you, and I do see realtime interaction in your scum meta, even when people are actively scumreading you. I do think your pushes on town in this game are towny though
- I still just think post count doesn't lie on these things unless you're tw/mathdino/rc/someone with an established meta of highposting as scum I've never seen a single example of someone who lurks as tpr and sometimes lurks as vt and always lurks as scum suddenly being the second highest poster as scum
- I would love another reason to tr you but after everything that's happened in this game I don't really expect people to give me good reasons to tr them anymore

2. alonzo gamethrew
- I mean it's possible I guess
- I don't have any other super strong reasons to tr him, although I think he was fairly towny under pressure d2
- ....

3. bujaber pushed his partner all game
- while I haven't seen this in what I've read of his meta, I have seen that he's good at manipulating associatives, and enigma could be traitor anyway
- of all the meta tells, bussing / not bussing is the one nearly everyone is aware of as being a thing (and of being 0 ev in a game theory sense) and therefore the one people are most likely to play against so I don't really take it super seriously
- I doubted my scumread on pin in sharing is caring because he hardbussed jjh when he went to great lengths to distance without actually bussing in 1859, but he was scum
- enigma's "guile-less-ness" is a pretty effective way to avoid both the lynch and the nk as traitor
- I still townread it though lol
- Get me out
- Dead players would lynch enigma here and I'm clearly bad at the game

[ruru]

BuJ continued to push me iirc on D3 after the massclaims (but before his lynch was likely).

I'm not sure if this is really accurate:

actually I don't want to lynch bujaber yet

I want to drag out the day for more content from performer

UNVOTE:

Performer- I townread skitter because of a combination of meta (she is posting a lot while maintaining her vague confused, and nullish stances) her meta is actually infuriating and allows her to safely coast as scum but she's pretty much correct about her meta from what I've seen.
Also there are a few fourth wall breaking reasons to TR her, like the fact that she, in the mafia thread of pyp x/y implied that she is scum in 2 games. That one and some other game that isn't this. That post was made after this game starts. I can see her fooling us by imitating her town meta, but I don't see her fooling herself or forgetting she's scum in this game.

Her saying she would have killed ruru by now is kinda bs if you ask me because it's only day 3 in a setup with an IC and possible PRs and ruru's play, especially with a strong townread on her would not have justified an NK. But I do absolutely believe that she would not keep ruru alive until endgame if she were scum.

VOTE: Enigma

Ruru and Alonzo prove their towniness by getting killed..

That leaves {ele, performer} as last scum.

I highly doubt Korina is scum here.

[ruru]

scum can still force a draw from this position.

okay now I'm somewhat spooked that you wanted no lynch earlier but now you want to lynch enigma

like yes this is true and it's why personally I haven't bothered trying to no lynch today but the fact that you wanted it earlier and now sadfgldfghl;dfgh'

[ruru]

alonzo do you have any meta case that you would definitively not gamethrow by fakeclaiming rb as scum here?

any thoughts on this?

[ruru]

what if we just lynch me so I don't have to be responsible for losing the game

[ruru]

also i still don't get why a50 was killed here; maybe it was just fo rhis reads?

possibly because scum valued ruru vs. tw

it's also a kill that makes sense for {you, people trying to frame you}

[ruru]

speaking of which I have a self-meta request

do you have town meta of:
- frequently mentioning that past nks are super confusing to you
- use of the words "go here" describing a vote (sorry, this is oddly specific, but you know why)
?

[ruru]

let's add asking people in xylo if they like playing scum to the list too

[ruru]

I figured as much

[ruru]

I still gut townread enigma's posts and don't gut townread alonzo's posts of late and I actually gut scumread you (by posting/bop) today but I also trust postcount more than my gut

I don't even understand why I gut townread enigma's posting so much (excluding the ones which were pockety toward me because I'm highly aware that some of them were) when I didn't really gut townread his townposting in pyp or whatever.

Alonzo not thinking his claim is a throw for scum is like I don't even know, like would scum even be honest about that, knowing it would change my read

[ruru]

no

I'm

done wit hthis game I'm so done with this game that I spam random letters to ofrhz on discord like every day

[ruru]

so I'm thinking about the case where someone above alonzo was investigative

n3 scum shoot the townier claim
n4 scum shoot alonzo, then he doesn't have to give an inno d5

it really only costs scum if his claim is believable enough that scum shoot him first and give the real pr an extra night

interestingly rb is the only role for which this is true

[ruru]

there's still the issue that if bujaber gets lynched like the game, alonzo is forced to shoot an investigative, but mysteriously survive until lylo, where he probably should and will get autolynched

that situation is still distinctly different from this one because scum don't benefit all that much from shooting me+alonzo in this one.

[ruru]

so I'm thinking about the case where someone above alonzo was investigative

n3 scum shoot the townier claim
n4 scum shoot alonzo, then he doesn't have to give an inno d5

it really only costs scum if his claim is believable enough that scum shoot him first and give the real pr an extra night

interestingly rb is the only role for which this is true

this is about the case where bujaber isn't lynched and there's one investigative above alonzo

there's still the issue that if bujaber gets lynched like the game, alonzo is forced to shoot an investigative, but mysteriously survive until lylo, where he probably should and will get autolynched

that situation is still distinctly different from this one because scum don't benefit all that much from shooting me+alonzo in this one.

this is about the case where bujaber is lynched and there's one investigative above alonzo

[ruru]

does traitor get to see the scum pt after both goons die?

[ruru]

this is about the case where bujaber is lynched and there's one investigative above alonzo

i can't tell if this hypothetical is for scum!alonzo or town!alonzo

scum

[ruru]

How do you feel you've played in this one ruru?

what's this supposed to mean?

[ruru]

@ skit Knowing I'm town, and having to believe ruru, we just need to lynch one of you/enigma and RB the other?

There wont be a kill and then the survivor is lynched next day.

ASSUMING ruru is truthfull...(and me too obviously)(WHICH I AM!) ( YOU CAN METADIVE THAT< HAVE NEVER LIED ONSITE AS EITHER ALIGNMENT!)

Like I appreciate all the reading you are doing, but ruru is the relevant topic..

@ruru

I mean do you think you have done well/bad what where your high/lowlights in this one?

I don't think it can be called doing well if it's xylo and I don't really feel the game is conclusively solved

like I'm back and forth and I don't ever have a stronger scumread than like 65% and I don't like to be in a position where I can lose to randomness like that

I feel like we're going to lose, when I want to vote enigma I feel like we're going to lose to you, when I want to vote you I feel like we're going to lose to skitter, etc. etc. (like if you're town we probably win even if we mislynch today but I'm not 100% on that either)

I'm even a bit paranoid of skitter by poe / the game not making sense points to me missing something even though I believe in post count like more than anything here

I also feel like I did my best and the setup we randed is ridiculously scumsided and I got maximum value out of my role instead of playing it the obvious way and there were a lot of scummy townies and apathy and idk this is super defeatist maybe we just lynch enigma and he flips scum but I don't feel like I deserve to win anyway.

in hindsight I should've went allin on bujaber d2 when people didn't want to lynch him because it just so happens we'd have an extra inno or whatever if I did but I don't have enough experience to have that much trust in my own read when nobody else seems too interested except gamma

[ruru]

oh and I really don't think nolynching accomplishes anything because scum's optimal play is to nokill regardless

unless we think town ev is actually sub-50 in which case I guess we should accept the draw

[ruru]

I don't think town ev is actually sub-50 I just feel awful about every lynch

[ruru]

I don't see the point in lynching skitter really

if we lynch scum today I don't have to deal with the possibility of you getting paranoid and rbing me instead of the remaining scum

[ruru]

so, we should lynch scummiest first and then rb second scummiest if you're town

[ruru]

I think the lynching you plan probably comes from town too (even though I don't really like it)

whatever intent to vote enigma I guess

[ruru]

Ugh... Its just Im not a great dancer...

I think we gotta go Skitter then Enigma..

why?

[ruru]

alonzo if there's a tomorrow you get lynched 0% of the time

[ruru]

i was getting annoyed because from my pov if you're town enigma -> skitter is equally valid as skitter -> enigma and has the benefit of probably winning the game, whereas i know skitter -> enigma doesn't and for me uses up one of the mislynches that could be used to solve it. from my pov {enigma/alonzo} is where scm is nearly always and like i don't want to waste a mislynch on me in case its scum you. i don't think it's very likely but i dont want to actively lose a mislynch by lynching myself because that's dumb

if alonzo is scum then skitter->enigma and enigma->skitter both lose the game equally

[ruru]

enigma is easier for him to push; idk if he bothers with this if he's scum

I think so too, I expressed intent and he could've just left it alone and then hammered unless he was afraid of enigma posting something tomorrow that would change my mind or whatever

[ruru]

I'm also wondering if his push on you was kind of a reaction test because like I've been thinking "it sure would be nice if we'd had a serious wagon on skitter sometime this game" but like I don't really believe in you being scum so if I faked a scumread on you here to try to sort you better I might just get myself scumread for it

[ruru]

like I don't know what half of you guys' posts are about it seems like you're living in an alternate mechanical universe rn

[ruru]

jeez now I have to re-motivation-read all of alonzo's play with the idea of me being a doctor

I hate this game

[ruru]

alonzo, what exactly did you think my role did?

[ruru]

so you know I would die instead, but you misread that it wouldn't stop the game from ending?

[ruru]

I don't care about skitter's streak, I care about the possibility of you being scum and the offchance of you roleblocking me if I lynch town today

[ruru]

but it could be a town-motivated lie, you could be saying you're going to rb skitter/enigma 100% of the time to see what I do to get reads or whatever

I don't necessarily think you're doing that but I might do it in your position so it's like not impossible which is why I want to lynch scum today

if you're telling the truth that you rb skitter/enigma 100% of the time then the order makes zero difference to you, it's a mechanical solve either way

[ruru]

based on some comments she's made out of game I don't think it's really out of character for her

like it's maybe slightly scummy or policy-worthy but I don't actually think she has a higher chance of flipping scum than enigma

[ruru]

Even If I RB her and theres no kill.. she still has a chance of talking you into disbelieving me... amirite? you say 100% but do you mean it? it sounds like you don't which scares me...

I mean it, because if you were scum you would have just shot someone and ended the game, like it actually would 100% confirm her as scum

[ruru]

so you know I would die instead, but you misread that it wouldn't stop the game from ending?

I momentarily forgot the game would end for scum! me there, because I'm not scum and havn't been thinking like that....

I think this is actually super townreadable like it's pretty unlikely for scum to not know and it's pretty unlikely for scum to fake

[ruru]

even if he thought I'm literally doctor or something he would have known that he could shoot me and win

[ruru]

VOTE: enigma

let's just do this

[ruru]

I mean it, because if you were scum you would have just shot someone and ended the game, like it actually would 100% confirm her as scum

I have no reason to lie about this btw, it's in the same category as like someone not quickhammering in lylo

I don't care how pocketed I am if there's hard mechanical evidence