Open 812 Guardians of the Fortress - Game Over

[Infinity 324]

I want to go to the wall since that's the only place my scumreads will matter unless I obvtown, which I probably won't cause I don't have super high motivation for mafia atm. Otherwise, I'd rather go to the wall (again, cause I probably won't obvtown)

Having a UTR decide who goes where should increase our odds of winning (of forcing someone to scumclaim by not following the plan) right?

[Infinity 324]

I'm a bit confused on your preference here, I think obvtowning is way more important in the Wall than the others

I'm not sure I agree. If I'm reasonably suspected, I'll have to obvtown at the gate so that the conftown doesn't vote for me. At the keep, obvtowning means the others can vote for you and you win. I think the most valuable thing I can contribute is my scumreads, which will matter the most at the wall.

[Infinity 324]

Seeing as they are probably not so stupid as to do that, perhaps we should try quickly putting all the good people into two locations and then the bad people will be stuck going to the last location?

Using the the locations as a one-shot scumteam guess is... a thing we could do, but probably not the most efficient use of it given that the odds of actually getting it right are so low.

Oh this was kinda the purpose of my suggestion, also it ties scum's hands a bit if 2 scum end up in the same place.

[Infinity 324]

I feel like I've probably played with a bunch of people here but I don't know who they are

Agree that unwnd feels town, briar's "I'm gonna obvtown" comes from town more often than not I think and I'm getting some townvibes from ana as well

ffery could be scum, mostly because she hasn't townpinged me yet

[Infinity 324]

yes and no. If I'm reading the notes correctly, regardless of how the mafia arrange themselves, they still have to move 2 players. And town has to figure out what's behind the moves.

Right.

[Infinity 324]

you should tune up that pingdar, then.

You think I should have townpings from you at this point?

[Infinity 324]

I take back what I said about my scumreads mattering, I didn't realize we all got to vote on all the minigames. I still feel like the wall is the place where obvtowning is the least important (because if you're not conftown at the gate, you need to obvtown to not get limmed, and at the keep you need to obvtown to get voted). Unwnd why do you disagree?

[Infinity 324]

I didn't realize we all got to vote on all the minigames.

I don't think we do. At least, that wasn't the intent.

@mod - ?

[Infinity 324]

I take back what I said about my scumreads mattering, I didn't realize we all got to vote on all the minigames. I still feel like the wall is the place where obvtowning is the least important (because if you're not conftown at the gate, you need to obvtown to not get limmed, and at the keep you need to obvtown to get voted). Unwnd why do you disagree?

@unwnd

[Infinity 324]

It's a much better leverage to go into a XYLO with no clear with one person you slightly trust over two people you don't trust at all. You can use that to see how the individual feels about you townreading them or vice-versa.

Yeah but in the other minigames there's a much more direct mechanical incentive to be obvtown

[Infinity 324]

okay the anime avis are starting to get to me ngl

This is ironic because your avatar is also anime <3

Wow am I really alone as a non-anime avi? >.<

[Infinity 324]

Infinity what's on your mind!!

I think I've given most of my relevant thoughts so far, although they've been out of sync with the game because I've been posting in between board game turns. I do get some townvibes from lukewarm and some non-townvibes from catboi ig

What's your read on absinthe?

[Infinity 324]

I don't think they're aligned

Does this mean "not scum together" or you think they're also unlikely to both be town?

[Infinity 324]

Okay, thoughts readswise:

I like unwnd's early energy

I townread Infinity's 52 - something about that mindset fees like it's coming from town

I think Lukewarm's posts have been solidly town and he'd be my first pick for someone to send to the wall right now

No particular scum pings yet

Why do you think that? Why would you not wait to see if other people are okay with it?

Why should I care about what other people think in the moment? Like, if people don't think that I'm towny enough there are two other slots that they can assign to other people and vote them instead, and I'll vote whoever I think is town of those two if no one wants me. I'm just hamstringing myself if I'm scum by putting the pressure on myself to compete with them but that isn't the case this game, so /shrug. It's a bit shitty of me to not care if other people agree

now

but they will in time.

Hmm, okay. I don't really understand this mindset at all but it'd be an unusually gutsy play for scum.

These posts felt a bit careful? Trying to look town? The opposite of whismical? Idk, it's pretty weak anyway.

[Infinity 324]

Oh oops

[Infinity 324]

I didn't get the impression that the game was moving quickly from a serious/readslist perspective, but ok.

[Infinity 324]

Don't we want scumreads at the gate so we can force scum to conftown them? We might want one at the wall too to make the wall guardians' lives easier

[Infinity 324]

Don't we want scumreads at the gate so we can force scum to conftown them? We might want one at the wall too to make the wall guardians' lives easier

I actually think we should get all town leaders at the Gate so we get an IC that we can all count on - but I will have to think about your plan.

I still like having obvtown at the keep (at least one), but putting strong (not necessarily obvtown) people at the gate can make sense for this reason

[Infinity 324]

In my last scum game, which was abandoned by the mod, I was probably getting day-1 elimmed, which would have lost the game for my team.

I don't agree with this fwiw, but maybe the circumstances would've been different if people were actually motivated to post

[Infinity 324]

My point is that your townread on Dunnstral is nonsense and he would say the same thing regardless of alignment, but that's not why I was pressing you... I wanted to understand your thought process to see if I thought it was genuine.

Do you really think you were getting more out of ana than you already got? Idk this feels like scum!you so far

[Infinity 324]

I guess I do kind of think you are town now because of the incredibly cruel way you are treating me.

I'm not sure you're capable of doing this as scum.

I guess I will learn something new this game.

I don't agree, the reaction feels disproportionate to me and I think being scum frustrated with a BoP fits with that. I think ffery probably believes the gist of what she's saying, but yeah

[Infinity 324]

she kept it to herself because it seemed like it was just being swallowed in the greater battle going on.

I kept it to myself because it was very weak, but it's gotten stronger the more catboi has posted.

[Infinity 324]

Granted, the one game I played with her she was scum

We also played in pokemon battles

[Infinity 324]

Maybe that logic makes no sense, and I am over thinking it, but the idea of "just doing whatever" feels wrong to me

I was thinking mostly the same thing

[Infinity 324]

I want to go to the wall since that's the only place my scumreads will matter unless I obvtown, which I probably won't cause I don't have super high motivation for mafia atm. Otherwise, I'd rather go to the wall (again, cause I probably won't obvtown)

Having a UTR decide who goes where should increase our odds of winning (of forcing someone to scumclaim by not following the plan) right?

Do you have a candidate for UTR?

Yeah briar makes sense unless she's secretly a god-level scum player.

[Infinity 324]

I think that I'd be able to read Infinity as well were she in that group with us as wel

Who are you? >.< I don't think anyone really has a consistent track record of reading me, largely because of sample size

[Infinity 324]

infinity is gut feeling - she doesn't feel as transparently townie as I'd think she'd be if she were town

Who are you? I've gotten quicklimmed d1 in a playerlist that almost all knew me. It's pretty rare I'm transparently town.

[Infinity 324]

only if my reads are wrong

I think it's pretty silly to have a value judgement on play that is only determined after the game is over. We want to know now what's good and what isn't; so I think that it is bad play to commit yourself to a read like that, even if the read turns out to be right in the end.

I think you are stuck in a weird place where you can't decide whether you want to shade me as bold genius scum gambitter or bad town tunnel reader and it makes you sound funny

since I think you are scummy it makes me feel I'm on the right track with this briar/absinthe plan

I think you're probably approaching reading s_s not great, though he's still leaning scum for me atm. Like, he loves to talk about things in a vacuum and not come to firm conclusions, though the way he's doing it here I feel is +scum for him.

[Infinity 324]

The

Gate

is where we should have/should put the towniest members, for obvious reasons, except for 1 person we are voting at the keep

Why? Don't we want to put scummy players there to force scum to IC then?

[Infinity 324]

I think your play has gotten a lot better since then tbh.

Honestly, I'm pretty happy with how I played that game, though I wish I communicated my thoughts better. I don't think I've improved at communicating more than a little bit since then though. I'm confused at why you think I'd be obvtown, especially if you saw that game, but you're town for other reasons at this point so w/e

[Infinity 324]

in D&C you obvtown'd very quickly and you will be put into a similar 3P very soon.

In D&C I obvtowned quite slowly relative to my post volume, early on most people were scumreading me and I had an absurd amount of motivation compared to what I'm likely to have here.

I probably have a little more motivation than what I thought because I like the environment of this game, but don't expect me to be obvtown here.

[Infinity 324]

Do you really think you were getting more out of ana than you already got?

I hadn't gotten anything yet, so I should hope so?

Well she had outlined her basic thought process already

[Infinity 324]

@s_s Why would ana make up a reason for a read she can't justify as scum?

[Infinity 324]

@s_s Why would ana make up a reason for a read she can't justify as scum?

Because she wouldn't expect to be interrogated this deeply.

I mean, scum have two kinds of reads: tactical and genuine. Town have only genuine reads. Tactical reads are top-down instead of bottom-up (the read comes first, then the justification), so they may not be justifiable in the same way that genuine reads are.

I don't really see why you'd expect scum to have a tactical read at this point in the game. If it was to pocket dunn, ana could've just found a townread she genuinely believe in to pocket then instead. Idk

[Infinity 324]

in D&C you obvtown'd very quickly and you will be put into a similar 3P very soon.

In D&C I obvtowned quite slowly relative to my post volume, early on most people were scumreading me and I had an absurd amount of motivation compared to what I'm likely to have here.

I probably have a little more motivation than what I thought because I like the environment of this game, but don't expect me to be obvtown here.

I expect you to obvtown or be scum

Ok, you're wrong

[Infinity 324]

Ana tbh I don't know who you are, but it's kind of frustrating that you obviously know me but are using clearly wrong methods to sort me and have seen games (one night stand) where those methods obviously didn't work to sort me. I'm not saying I'm easy to sort, but you're very wrong and don't seem to be willing to take feedback on your read.

[Infinity 324]

Honestly I feel pretty good about my TRs on briar and ana, which means I think I like putting someone I also TR strongly at the keep. Absinthe would not be that player for me, but I do feel better about her than I did before.

The chances of any specific group of 3 being town is about 18% if I did my math right, which seems like something that's reasonable to try and go for. I also feel like it's reasonable to try and go for putting 2 scum in the same group (probably the wall) if we can. Then the gate could contain some null reads. Thoughts?

[Infinity 324]

I'm not sure why pushing you to obvtown would be a bad way to sort you?

Because it's not going to happen. I don't obvtown in every game, I don't obvtown in most of my games, it's probably around 30% of my towngames. Mostly I end up getting limmed or am somewhere in the middle. This game I am just not motivated enough to be obvtown.

[Infinity 324]

Infinity, what's the basis of your earlier read on me? And what made you feel better?

I'm not sure. I think I was expecting a kind of warmth/drive to your posting that wasn't there. Right now you feel like you're thinking about the game but being reserved not putting everything into the thread, which usually comes from town.

[Infinity 324]

Well what's wrong with putting SS-Infinity-Unwnd at the Wall in the world where you are town?

Seems like it would be best to put universal scumreads at the Gate because one of them will hopefully get to be confirmed town.

Well like dunn said, scum can swap in a townie there to confirm as town. So I feel like the collective scumreads should go at the wall because that way it's hopefully more likely that 2 scum end up there, and scum can't swap a townie to the gate. That should limit their options more. Putting nullish players at the gate makes more sense to me.

[Infinity 324]

If it helps your meta ffery, s_s felt similar to this when he was scum in PyP

[Infinity 324]

@ffery You don't feel like you have a ton of drive here, it feels like you're applying a light touch. You had an early scumread on ana, but you didn't express it as "ana is definitely scum" or continued questioning. Another way I see drive manifest is extended analysis, but you didn't feel the need for that, instead you gave the thoughts that came to your mind and didn't feel the need to say more.

[Infinity 324]

I played so badly in that game and I feel like my posting here is leaps and bounds better.

I feel like in any game where skitter has a strong townread on you and you're scum can't be classified as "playing badly"

[Infinity 324]

Honestly I feel pretty good about my TRs on briar and ana, which means I think I like putting someone I also TR strongly at the keep. Absinthe would not be that player for me, but I do feel better about her than I did before.

The chances of any specific group of 3 being town is about 18% if I did my math right, which seems like something that's reasonable to try and go for. I also feel like it's reasonable to try and go for putting 2 scum in the same group (probably the wall) if we can. Then the gate could contain some null reads. Thoughts?

To be clear, this is what I think is optimal. Townreads at the keep, scumreads at the wall, nullreads at the gate.

[Infinity 324]

@ffery I don't really agree that your analysis is miles beyond the penultimate game accounting for the activity of the thread. I don't see a reason to expect you to be incapable of faking this level of analysis as scum, because you seem like an analytical player in general. But that's not to say I didn't take into account the penultimate game--that's part of where my expectation of warmth came from, along with the interactions I've had with you out-of-game. You played well in that game and I was townreading you there by the end, and that game just doesn't really give me much useful data (especially without a town baseline really). I don't expect your scumgame to be blazing obvtown but besides that yeah.

[Infinity 324]

I'm curious what made you decide scum reads should go to the wall? That is the one where we have to find the scum without an IC in there. If we put 3 people we are already suspicious of in there, wouldn't that increase the chances that we miselim there?

I think the wall is the best place to aim for 2 scum so that scum can't put an obvtownie at the gate. I think we shouldn't put a ton of thought into the case where we can't get 2 scum in the same place, since scum have a lot of influence over the groupings in that case anyway.

[Infinity 324]

I'd prefer to go to the gate to maximize our chances of getting 2 scum at the wall, but if my townreads agree I should go to the wall I'll go to the wall.

[Infinity 324]

I guess what I'm saying is I was trying to reaction test you/infinity to see if either of you would actually be willing to go to the wall just to prove me wrong but neither of you volunteered to do that so now I feel more convinced I am actually right.

Tbh I haven't really thought about specifically who I want to go where (including myself) because I want to wait until I have better reads/we're ready for the day to end.

[Infinity 324]

@ffery I don't really agree that your analysis is miles beyond the penultimate game accounting for the activity of the thread. I don't see a reason to expect you to be incapable of faking this level of analysis as scum, because you seem like an analytical player in general. But that's not to say I didn't take into account the penultimate game--that's part of where my expectation of warmth came from, along with the interactions I've had with you out-of-game. You played well in that game and I was townreading you there by the end, and that game just doesn't really give me much useful data (especially without a town baseline really). I don't expect your scumgame to be blazing obvtown but besides that yeah.

If you want to continue this interaction ffery, I actually thought it was useful.

[Infinity 324]

Yeah I do feel you're different, and you do feel towny here, but I'd expect scum!you to be different here because the game is more active and you'd feel the need to try to keep up. Actually, one of the biggest reasons I feel you're town here is that you're not trying to look town.

[Infinity 324]

Yeah I meant keeping up in terms of looking town.

[Infinity 324]

I don't have a large sample on s_s (at least that I can remember), but I think he does seem a bit more goal-directed as town and I can see the purpose of his questioning a bit more easily.

My motivation to play mafia comes in waves and right now it's at a low point

[Infinity 324]

If Briar and Anastasia are both town, Why doesn't anybody care/want to be in the keep? Shouldn't mafia want to put a member in there so they can swap more effectively?

Hmm yes but there are different ways to go about it. "I want to be in the keep" may not work that well if we're outsourcing the decision to a UTR.

[Infinity 324]

I'm finding I quite like this playerlist.

[Infinity 324]

I'm finding I quite like this playerlist.

So, you're feeling more motivated?

A little bit, and I felt like I've kind of obvtowned already, but I probably won't wow people into townreading me if I haven't already.

[Infinity 324]

If I were scum and Briar/Ana were both town, I'd already be in the Keep

I'd treat this as a scumclaim

[Infinity 324]

If I were scum and Briar/Ana were both town, I'd already be in the Keep

I'd treat this as a scumclaim

Go on

It's not town-motivated at all to lock in a vote without discussing here, especially since it encourages scum to do the same.

[Infinity 324]

And if I do scum claim, what are you going to do about it?

It gives us a lot of useful associatives and a free win (I don't think it's necessarily free rn if briar and ana are town) so there's definitely a downside

It also doesn't prevent a 2 scum/0 scum split at the other 2 locations

[Infinity 324]

That there's scum in those 3? Logically yes, but it feels like nobody understands what I'm getting at, so actually no.

I understand what you're getting at, you think scum would go to the keep so that they have more flexibility in swapping.

[Infinity 324]

I'm having difficulty engaging readswise and my reads feel pretty stagnant though I feel like some are wrong. (To summarize, that's unwnd, absinthe, ana, luke and briar as town, dunn as null, and s_s and catboi as scumleans).

So let me try to work through the mechanics at least. If we try to put a third townread at the keep, we have a decent chance of putting 3 town in there. Say it's ana, briar, and absinthe. If we succeed, the best swap scum can do is probably putting one of those 3 into the gate. Ideally we'd put 2 scum in the wall if that's the case, which lets us have an extra townie in the wall and some WIFOM info about who we think scum would swap. I think I've talked myself into wanting a scummy player in the keep though, because if we have 3 town in the keep and 2 scum at the gate it's not great for us anyway. Especially since I TR unwnd and they're already at the wall.

[Infinity 324]

I seriously doubt I'd be IC'd in the Gate.

Why? It feels like you're pretty widely TRed

[Infinity 324]

Luke would be my choice of the uncommitted players.

I'm going to give it a few hours for serious objections and then vote keep unless convinced it's super suboptimal of me. I guess the main objection would be that I wouldn't be around very long to weigh in on the rest of the mini-games.

Once I just decided it's wrong? Lol

Tbh I'd be pretty happy at the keep as of now so that I don't throw and can't be mislimmed, but yeah only if people decide it's better to have someone scummy there. It's also nice that it likely forces a scum swap into the keep.

[Infinity 324]

I could very well be wrong on this mech too

[Infinity 324]

I felt like his play around ana has been quite towny, it feels like a genuine attempt to try to sort her through what seems like a layer of fog to him.

[Infinity 324]

Actually, that applies to a lot of unwnd's play, but the first place I saw it and the most clear was their early interaction with ana.

[Infinity 324]

It wouldn't be my preference, since 2 of my strongest townreads are already at the keep it seems like it'll be tough to get 3 town somewhere else, but I'll go wherever consensus tells me.

[Infinity 324]

Since not many people have talked about this, I do kinda feel like catboi's early lock in at the gate could be scum-motivated (emotionally it didn't line up that well for me), but I don't see a clear specific scum motivation for it.

[Infinity 324]

I don't follow, I'm sorry.

I think there's a high chance you and briar are town. For sale of argument, let's call it 100%. That means there's only a 50% chance of any other given player being town. Unwnd isn't a super strong TR, and the other player in the wall has a decent chance of being scum, so the goal of getting 3 town players at the wall doesn't seem super likely to me. I guess I'd rather go there than the gate, unless we're trying to put 2 scum at the wall.

[Infinity 324]

This is the progression I felt was genuine.

Spoiler:

So, the thing is with my response to Anastasia is that there's basically a certain ~type~ of personality that I tend to mesh easily and well with whether or not I know them, and I trust that to a degree they're fine with me displaying a sort of friendly warmth/playfulness and will reciprocate in kind or at the very least not find it weird, and given that Ana did more than that I was fine going along with it.

It's harder to have that sort of connection with like, absinthe/unwnd this game (even if I know the latter) just because of who they are as people. Which isn't a bad thing by any means because I like both of them! But it's just easier for me to get comfortable with someone like Ana at least more openly.

As for my actual read on her, it's townread right now. It's not so much for content but like... in my head, there's two paths, and the one where she's town currently involves her like... being able to read these things from me as a person and then take the /further/ step from that where she assume that "If I buddy up to Briar, she will be less willing to kill me, because Briar doesn't like killing her friends" (which is an unfortunate flaw of my game), and then goes to hype me up/etc. Which is a really big fucking stretch (UNLESS she is an alt, who has played with me and then read me as my main which is another big stretch I have to make to get to her being scum IMO) compared to her just being town and she's vibing with me right now, so that's that.

Maybe I'm being too kind because I do like her posts from a strictly non-game perspective and don't want her to be scum but regardless of that I see town. Even her opening posts (which I think absinthe/unwnd?) said pinged them read as... awkward more than scummy. SO, yeah.

If what you're implying in the bold is true then why was your first gut reaction to kiss up to me? Was your intent to get a reaction out of me and turn it into a read, or was it similar to Ana in some regard where you saw someone familiar and felt like starting there?

So, the thing is with my response to Anastasia is that there's basically a certain ~type~ of personality that I tend to mesh easily and well with whether or not I know them, and I trust that to a degree they're fine with me displaying a sort of friendly warmth/playfulness and will reciprocate in kind or at the very least not find it weird, and given that Ana did more than that I was fine going along with it.

It's harder to have that sort of connection with like, absinthe/unwnd this game (even if I know the latter) just because of who they are as people. Which isn't a bad thing by any means because I like both of them! But it's just easier for me to get comfortable with someone like Ana at least more openly.

As for my actual read on her, it's townread right now. It's not so much for content but like... in my head, there's two paths, and the one where she's town currently involves her like... being able to read these things from me as a person and then take the /further/ step from that where she assume that "If I buddy up to Briar, she will be less willing to kill me, because Briar doesn't like killing her friends" (which is an unfortunate flaw of my game), and then goes to hype me up/etc. Which is a really big fucking stretch (UNLESS she is an alt, who has played with me and then read me as my main which is another big stretch I have to make to get to her being scum IMO) compared to her just being town and she's vibing with me right now, so that's that.

Maybe I'm being too kind because I do like her posts from a strictly non-game perspective and don't want her to be scum but regardless of that I see town. Even her opening posts (which I think absinthe/unwnd?) said pinged them read as... awkward more than scummy. SO, yeah.

If what you're implying in the bold is true then why was your first gut reaction to kiss up to me? Was your intent to get a reaction out of me and turn it into a read, or was it similar to Ana in some regard where you saw someone familiar and felt like starting there?

The latter really, I just like you as a player and we've only ever had positive/fun times together that I can recall, so it was fun to post those sort of things jokingly at you. But you're not like, as much to reciprocate that same energy in general.

I should explain more: I've seen you rather recently not like the like, extent a social aspect has taken root of a game, so I came into it knowing that you wouldn't most likely post back in the same vein as I was but it wasn't a big deal to me that you wouldn't, if that makes sense?

Some recent games I have indeed been a bit of a prick. It wasn't intentional on my part but I get really tilted by some things. One of them is how I want the game to played, which usually contrasts with how it's played. My understanding of You/Ana right now is that you're social players and feed off the energy of the room, while not getting caught up in details. I think that behavior is the most easily faked and something that is harder to read because of it.

I think what's going on right now (despite being apart of it) is that you have different players who appreciate different things. When it came to absin, I gave her a loaded question because I wanted to engage an unknown. To my surprise, absin was actually quite known and perked me up a bit. My question to you Ana is why the means of which me/absin had conversation vastly telling to how you/Briar did?

Your question confuses me.

You do understand I know I'm town right?

And you understand I am as well? My point was that we see the game differently and want different things out of it. If I'm being blunt I'm not further to determining your alignment after what happened with you/Briar.

I think that if you're scum you're going to play up your best traits in order to be townread

If you're town, those should come naturally?

None of this explains why you don't want me and Briar to have fun vibing.

If you think what we are doing is fake-able, then it's NAI behavior and not really important to the game - your mood should be indifference.

If you think what we are doing is scum theater, your mood should be suspicion.

Instead I'd say your mood is that of being "annoyed" - which fits well into the mindset of a scum who is upset that town players are giving each other townreads off NAI content as it tips the balance of the setup.

I'm not annoyed though, I'm giving you an olive branch when it comes to this interpretation.

Let me try to rephrase what I wanted to say:

Me and absin value different things and look for different tells, and the way in which we decode information. I am much more familiar with her mindset.

However,

You and Briar seemed to have the same reaction to one another. Why is a different approach inherently scummy to you? I noted that you didn't really care for absin's scumread on you but I don't want to turn this into a Me/Absin vs. You/Briar because I don't think that's what is really happening.

[Infinity 324]

I don't see what the answer is that it comes down to

[Infinity 324]

Sure. If you're implying there's an agenda there I don't have influence here anyway though.

[Infinity 324]

The keep

[Infinity 324]

The problem I have with you being at the keep IF you're town is that it vastly simplifies who to move out of the keep

I feel like a briar/anastasia/me keep is 1) 100% town and 2) a bit more of a challenge for scum to work out the best swap.

Yeah but you being a generally-agreed townread is much more useful in one of the other groups. I feel like scum can swap briar/ana no matter what and it's not really that much of a benefit to us to make the swaps harder to figure out, I'd rather just have townier people outside the keep to help solving.

[Infinity 324]

Infinity is confirmed scum because absinthe is confirmed town at the keep

Scum can swap town with town if there's 1 scum in each group.

I don't know if I have much agency here, I think briar is probably the scum because ana promised to vote for the other in this group but yeah.

[Infinity 324]

I mean once people realize I'm town, it might be useful to have my thoughts in the thread.

If I was more confident on the town in my group I would quickvote here but idk. I hope ana and briar don't rush this.

[Infinity 324]

Dunn can you explain why you went Wall without consulting anyone?

Because you wanted infinity at the wall, and from my point of view there was very likely 1-2 scum between the two of you

So I forced both S_S and Infinity into the keep to see what would happen. The result is that there was already 1 scum in the wall, and likely the last 2 in the keep

This feels like a town thought.

[Infinity 324]

I'd like the keep to go first, it shouldn't really be a problem if people think I'm scum but knowing who the scum in our group is will probably cause people to re-evaluate

[Infinity 324]

Infinity,

I love you dearly but I just wanted to let you know that the odds of you making me feel an ounce of doubt in my heart that Briar is scum is roughly equivalent to the odds of a single raindrop landing on a blade of grass.

Well if you're town, I only need to vote you before you vote briar in order to win the minigame. It's doable.

[Infinity 324]

Briar how obvtown do you think you are?

[Infinity 324]

i mean if you're scum and unwnd/luke are T/T then you need to jump on the wall because if a townie jumps on the wall the game is over.

*the townie. any one of the 3 scum would have to go to the wall before the single townie did, and they'd need to do so in a way that doesn't look like a scumclaim... right?

Putting this here because I need to check who was locked in

[Infinity 324]

Briar how obvtown do you think you are?

100%, no doubts.

I think if I was having a strong scumgame I could probably fake something comparable to what you've done here, and my scumgame isn't exceptional. I'm not really sure what you've done that's outside of your scumrange besides ~nuance~. Scum don't really tend to draw attention to themselves by saying they're very obvtown when they're not, but /shrug

[Infinity 324]

Official Vote Count 1.05

---

Preparation

Gate

(1): catboi

Wall

(2): unwnd, Lukewarm

Keep

(3): Briar, Anastasia, absinthe

Unassigned

(3): Dunnstral, Infinity 324, Something_Smart

Deadline:

(expired on 2021-05-18 18:31:49).

Mod notes:

Only votes for the Gate, Wall, or Keep will be counted.

This was the VC when dunn locked in his vote. There was 1 scum at the keep, so scum!dunn locking in his vote at the wall made some sense. However, me and s_s were never going to really quickvote anyway, so idk if it was worth it for scum!dunn.

[Infinity 324]

I'll be honest I've been sleeping like a baby thinking I've had the game solved already for the last three nights.

<3 I'm sorry

[Infinity 324]

I wonder if I can obvtown enough to make this interesting

[Infinity 324]

No I really have no idea

[Infinity 324]

Huh, okay; the scum range comment made me curious because you generally say that when I’m town, I’m really obvious town (and I agree that my scum game is... polarizing.) So I wasn’t sure where the sudden change might have come from.

Well there's at least one reason I can think of ;)

[Infinity 324]

In the interests of not having half this table informed tiptoeing around my identity/meta when I’m not actively hiding it: I’m Ydrasse.

I felt like your tone was off from normal ydrasse, huh.

You also said you were playing league not TFT. You trickster.

[Infinity 324]

That makes ana much more likely to be the scum, fwiw.

[Infinity 324]

Yeah ydrasse has a good scumgame but not really a confident one, so this would be a step up for her from what I've seen. (She also can get demotivated as scum). Then again, in a vacuum she's playing much more like the scum in our group.

[Infinity 324]

Can someone who knows ana tell me if she's, like, out of her scumrange? She's a strong scum player but the way she's approaching this feels so pure

[Infinity 324]

I want this to be powerwolf!ydrasse, but it feels like a bit of a stretch.

[Infinity 324]

Where are you leaning between S_S/catboi Infinity?

Catboi, but I have to ISO them. Both got townier as the game went along I feel

[Infinity 324]

Can someone who knows ana tell me if she's, like, out of her scumrange? She's a strong scum player but the way she's approaching this feels so pure

I have an infinite scum range

you don't have to worry about me because I'm just gonna vote for Ydrasse like 100% of the time when it comes to that time.

I think you at least owe me the ability to vote first.

[Infinity 324]

I'll probably vote in 2-3 days

[Infinity 324]

I think you at least owe me the ability to vote first.

Sure infinity I'll let you vote just for the sake of completeness.

I feel like an idiot for doing this if you're scum because now you have a chance of winning when you didn't before, but sigh

[Infinity 324]

Infinity does seem kind of burned out tho

I think she gets sent to the keep regardless of her partner?

Stop stealing my thoughts, thief.

I think it makes sense, send people with more WIM to other places to fight.

I'd like to hear both of your thoughts now that I'm demonstrating I have at least a little bit of WIM.

I'm at scum!s_s now I think, fwiw

[Infinity 324]

So your post about the bravado was a reaction test? What reactions were you expecting as scum vs town?

pedit: @unwnd

I find when Dunn is town the ends justify the means. When he's scum, he spends a lot of time in this mode of fake thinking. There's a more general vagueness and I feel like he's less battered because he doesn't want to risk the attention. This plays in part of him idling at times. Dunn isn't a hyperposter and keeps to himself, and I don't think he's the scum to make big moves. He waits for people to make mistakes and then capitalizes on them.

Hmm, so do you think luke is scum here? This description seems to line up with dunn being town here

[Infinity 324]

I think you at least owe me the ability to vote first.

Sure infinity I'll let you vote just for the sake of completeness.

I feel like an idiot for doing this if you're scum because now you have a chance of winning when you didn't before, but sigh

You can always punt the decision to me I don't care, I'll vote for Briar no problem.

I think you know me well enough to know I'd never do this <3

[Infinity 324]

You're trying very hard so justify what I'd be doing as scum here :)

[Infinity 324]

Then why did you go through all the effort of making up your theory?

When scum is guiltied town doesn't need to think of "hmm what could the scum being doing here?" You just ignore their posts because they're all WIFOM.

You taking effort to justify why I'm scum means you know in your heart I'm town.

[Infinity 324]

But why isn't it just WIFOM?

[Infinity 324]

I feel like scum!dunn would try to find a way to get more influence about the game rather than talking about theories everyone disagrees with. If he's scum here, he played pretty inflexibly and he's better than that.

[Infinity 324]

^still only 2 at the gate because of the mechanic, but there's more wifom about the swap meaning the swap can be town-town, scum-scum, or town-scum

I wanted to say that what you're saying makes a lot of sense despite other people seeming to not get it

[Infinity 324]

But why isn't it just WIFOM?

Only if you have the foresight to know what I would think of your move.

Even if you're wrong about the gamestate though, what's the downside to me posting if I have the motivation/desire?

[Infinity 324]

You can tell me if I'm right about this guess in the postgame.

Spoiler: Why Infinity Came Back

The original scum plan was for infinity to pretend to be a tree in order to give as little information as possible.

As the evening wore on, the scumside realized that infinity's continued silence meant that me and briar would both be psuedo-ICs and could stay in the thread for longer, leaving Keep unresolved and weighing down the game state.

Realizing that this would be bad for them, they asked infinity to come back to the game to cast doubt on the Keep again in an attempt to reduce Briar/Me's influence on the game state.

This implies that I'm on the right path and my solve is indeed correct. Unwnd is scum and he needed Infinity to come back to salvage the situation or at least resolve Keep early so that he has the room to operate.

Interesting theory. Here's mine.

Spoiler: Why Infinity Came Back

She was busy last night.

Getting ready for bed but yeah.

[Infinity 324]

But I'm aware of that so I can try to put down false associatives. Idk, I feel like it's a pretty similar situation to guiltied scum

Honestly, I probably would've trolled or stopped posting if I was scum no matter the gamestate, but still.

[Infinity 324]

If I trust my partners, I let them figure it out.

If I don't trust my partners, I wouldn't swap into the keep to begin with.

W/e I still feel like you're scum :)

[Infinity 324]

Do you feel like your scum game is weaker than Infinity's?

My scumgame is highly inconsistent. I haven't played versus scum-Infinity in a very long time; iirc her game was fine but nothing special, but that was before her hiatus so I have no idea if it looks the same nowadays.

That's a fine description, my scumgame is pretty inconsistent but on average it's average. I'm decently sure s_s has a stronger scum game than me.

[Infinity 324]

I left a clear possibility that you were town who had figued something out that everyone missed, and that I very much wanted to understand your point, and you just never came back

This feels so genuine, I have no idea who's scum at the wall atp

[Infinity 324]

My issue is that during Day 1, you did not explain the "but actually no."

If this still isn't clear, I'm pretty sure it's because when dunn proposed the theory, everyone disagreed with him. This led dunn to believe the scum were truthful in their disagreement, meaning briar/ana can both be town (since scum wouldn't lock into the keep anyway).

[Infinity 324]

I posted that in mind with Dunn being my scumread I'm not sure how you got the opposite

There's very little vagueness in his play here, and locking himself into the wall could be described as a big move. Mainly the first one though. He hasn't tried to look town this game really.

[Infinity 324]

I was about to say 'is it possible that we're all town at the wall' but then I realized no lol

unwnd you are precious and I do not deserve you <3

I am really not sure what I'm doing to get compliments and I've felt that way this whole game

I think some people are just determined to spread love even if you didn't do anything in particular to deserve it <3

If you'd appreciate a more substantiated compliment, though, the way you think about mafia allows you to have insightful points of view that no one else would think of. This shows in both how you play mafia and how you've talked about the game in MD for example.

[Infinity 324]

I'd guess dunn/lukewarm psuedo-reconciliating was the impetus as that was the only significant event of last night.

And you're assuming I would've faked not having read up in order to do this? Your argument gets less occam's-razor'y the more you talk :/

[Infinity 324]

Ydrasse lmk when you realize I'm town ;)

[Infinity 324]

Please stop talking about the stupid fucking mechanics

Both of your arguments are just hearsay and me needing to believe what you would do in accordance to how the night played out

Not what you've organically gained from it

How is unwnd not obvtown to everyone

[Infinity 324]

I'm back to dunn being scum I think, I think luke and unwnd are both outside of any reasonable assumption I can make of their scumrange

[Infinity 324]

I haven't seen unwnd play scum, but I think he's out of the scumrange of 90+% of players on site.

[Infinity 324]

You can call it a soulread I guess.

[Infinity 324]

In the interests of not having half this table informed tiptoeing around my identity/meta when I’m not actively hiding it: I’m Ydrasse.

Why did this matter much to you if I'm not genuinely sorting you anyway?

[Infinity 324]

Ana what was the purpose of 1399? Are you going to reconsider unwnd (or ask dunn/luke to reconsider him) if he puts in a lot of effort?

[Infinity 324]

The way he approached it required him to be trying to read you and he felt that the mechanics talk was getting in the way of that. If you don't see it I don't know what to tell you

[Infinity 324]

That is a man that believes I am scum.

[Infinity 324]

Honestly I kinda just wanna talk to ydrasse and then vote. I don't think much is going to change my mind (unless someone thinks I'm town and ydrasse is the scum lmao)

[Infinity 324]

Yeah that's what we decided.

[Infinity 324]

You can call it a soulread I guess.

Ok, what specifically about his play looks beyond the scumrange of 90%+ of MS players?

For unwnd to be scum he would have to have crafted a seamless narrative of how he can and can't approach reading people in this game. Every time there's something that's opaque for him he comes in with the perfect emotional tenor, perfect level of frustration, and incredible depth of his thought process. It would be such an immense talent to be able to put yourself in a town mindset so deeply to be able to fake that.

[Infinity 324]

Also, can you sum up your case on Ana? I’ve skimmed a bit but going in depth hasn’t happened. Also you using those smiley faces frighten me lmfao.

Well mostly it's just that I think her play is much more inside her scumrange than your play has been inside yours, but it also feels like she is putting a lot of effort into justifying scum!me when if she knew it to be true in her heart she wouldn't need to try so hard.

[Infinity 324]

In the interests of not having half this table informed tiptoeing around my identity/meta when I’m not actively hiding it: I’m Ydrasse.

Why did this matter much to you if I'm not genuinely sorting you anyway?

This is where we can start.

[Infinity 324]

But if he's scum doesn't that mean it tells him he has a chance if he puts in effort?

[Infinity 324]

964 and 1456 (and the progression after that) were really good examples, I can find others if you want @ffery

[Infinity 324]

nope because if he is the elimination at the wall so it wouldn't matter how good his case for the gate is.

Wait but what's the point in reading unwnd if he's going to be the elim anyway

[Infinity 324]

Infinity, did you guess my main?

Huh, okay; the scum range comment made me curious because you generally say that when I’m town, I’m really obvious town (and I agree that my scum game is... polarizing.) So I wasn’t sure where the sudden change might have come from.

@ydrasse I guess these are the posts I was more curious about. It feels like you're putting importance on my sorting process of you and I'm not sure why.

[Infinity 324]

964 and 1456 (and the progression after that) were really good examples, I can find others if you want @ffery

964 confused me because I feel like the differences in how unwnd and I approach the game outweigh the similarities. I felt more able to read him as a waller than how he currently plays. And he plays a considerably more opaque game than I think I do (from my viewpoint, I'm too transparent and usually have already blurted something out by the time I realize I might should have held a card closer to my vest).

1456 - I tend to townread irritability, and I sense the irritability in those posts, but the content is objectively NAI to me.

I think what he was trying to say is that you approach the game similarly from an emotional perspective, like instead of having fun and being sociable and using that to get reads you're more analytical. Compared to how ana/briar were approaching the game the distinction felt like it made sense. The most genuine part to me was that I could feel the barrier that unwnd felt when he was trying to engage ana/briar, like he automatically filtered out the cutesy/playful stuff and that was in conflict with his attempts to read ana/briar.

Similar case with the second example, except this time he was filtering out mechanics instead of playfulness. I know what it feels like to have difficulty getting traction/progress on reading something, and unwnd's mindset matched up very well with that.

The more I talk about this though the more I understand why other people wouldn't see what I'm seeing, I hope you take it into account once I'm conftown though.

[Infinity 324]

Also, @Infinity, a lot of this game doesn’t make sense to me if specifically Ana is scum, because of what I know of her scumgame. Yes I say that it could exist but the reads she has this game and her philosophy on scum narrow it down to like... a game that can’t exist with that sort of scumteam, and because she’s not outed I’m being a bit vague but I hope she understands.

Alternatively, she could still just be wrong, but when she’s town she usually is right more often and I can only remember a few times where she was wrong.

I think this is important to talk about so I'm going to be a bit less vague, why can't she be scum with catboi and dunn for example? Also this setup might change how she approaches scum

[Infinity 324]

Infinity, did you guess my main?

Huh, okay; the scum range comment made me curious because you generally say that when I’m town, I’m really obvious town (and I agree that my scum game is... polarizing.) So I wasn’t sure where the sudden change might have come from.

@ydrasse I guess these are the posts I was more curious about. It feels like you're putting importance on my sorting process of you and I'm not sure why.

It was because my impression (that you knew my main in that moment) was at odds with things you have previously said on my play, which confused me because I wasn’t sure what the intention would be behind going from one philosophy how you view me to the next. It matters because, if you are town, you are at a place where you know one of me/Ana is scum (and broadly townread at that), so the way you approach both of us is something of note to me.

This applies to you being scum, albeit in this case you’re choosing who you think you can cast more doubt on.

This feels like the chance I'm town is higher than 2% so hmm.

What's giving you the most doubts? What's my towniest post/posts?

[Infinity 324]

Hold on, back to work but I just had a thought or two but basically she 1v1s where she has to and she pushed S_S so much that if she’s scum he’s confirmed town and also probably unwnd which means I am a dumb ass who should trust D1 too probably and then obviously you would be town in that situation and I dunno if that makes sense since fast typing but J didn’t want to forget it.

Yeah, you'll have to explain this again. If you're starting with scum!ana I have to be town anyway. But I'm sad because I probably have to be wrong on either you or s_s I guess.

[Infinity 324]

God catboi's responses to you were so genuine I felt >.<

[Infinity 324]

Gambiting by promising to vote you in the keep doesn't seem off her scum meta? It does seem suboptimal, since I assume she knew who you are and knew you would be obvtown to me. Idk. I guess I misread you for a short time in DnC, and penultimate but that doesn't count because you didn't post

aaaa I need help

Also when you get the chance going into your read on me is probably more helpful than going into your read on pooky

[Infinity 324]

I mean the idea that I would jump into the keep as scum when I could just go to Wall/Gate and fight 1v1 for a mis elim is silly.

Hmmm I do talk a lot about how pooky likes to 1v1 as scum

[Infinity 324]

I really wish we didn't have to flip to resolve the keep

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: briar

Fuck it my thoughts are in the thread

[Infinity 324]

Yay :)

[Infinity 324]

Lol no

[Infinity 324]

I'm taking the L for the keep

[Infinity 324]

Infinity, your comment about my play made my ego so huge it could become it's own continent.

<3

The fact that you and hoopla are the only players I've had a wrong soulread on probably says something about how I play mafia. You're in good company, anyway.

[Infinity 324]

Infinity you should take solace in knowing you had the right thought on Briar, because I think nobody had that one

Well I had access to my role PM, which helped quite a bit there.

When I questioned her she didn't give me anything I was looking for but I somehow decided to ignore that.

[Infinity 324]

This comment is part of the reason why I decided to just stay out of solving the Keep. That was 100% of my thinking, so if you already thought it, then I had nothing to add.

Yeah, ydrasse sowed the paranoia that ana would gambit perfectly. It wouldn't be too out-of-character, just a bad play.

If ana wants to reveal her main she can, I'm 99% sure I know who it is

[Infinity 324]

also, i wanted to say, luke you are a very fun presence in this game and i really hope you stick around on the site to play more. you’re a really good player already and with more experience here i’d love to see what you can pull off!!

+1

[Infinity 324]

this game was quite literally an anomaly in that my scumgame is riddled with insecurity and unwillingness to do things for fear of being caught so, thank you i am rather proud of this one. :>

God yes this was the biggest reason I couldn't see you as scum.