White flag #824 game over

[goats]

Good morning. My name is goats because I am the GOAT. I will begin this game by voting obvious scum.

VOTE: Dwlee99

[goats]

VOTE: Datisi

Don't like his slate of posting so far. 14, 44, 46 and 47 all feel like "yes, i am here and doing things in this game, and thinking about things, how are you fellow townies". Especially the latter two. I also feel like the statement "my rvs vote is no longer rvs"

has

to be >rand scum. It just has to be. I don't really see how 20 from me being a "vaguely pointless question" makes it a scummy post. I can certainly understand seeing that post as scummy but I don't like the way Datisi's described it.

I want to call N_M's play so far townie and am not sure what Gamma is talking about with MURDERCAT about it.

Explain what's wrong with the first four posts you quoted.

[goats]

I want everyone to pick out two people. For the rest of D1, you must treat them as hard town

If someone sticks to a questionable TR it’s probably a partner tell

how quickly you contradict yourself is pretty weird, these two statements cannot exist together

Sticking to a questionable TR because you have to as part of the wackstrat could never be a partner tell.

You literally skipped the post with the connection

you absolute baboon

Weird overreaction to a simple misunderstanding. You are probably scum.

[goats]

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

This is outed actually. He was angry at bugspray being a baboon, implying anger at bugspray's stupidity or lack of reading comprehension. But then he votes bugspray on the basis that they were mafia and intentionally trying to make them look bad. Which makes them scum, not someone who lacks reading comprehension. I think Gamma is mafia who got tilted at being suspected for the wrong reasons by a townie who didn't read their post properly. Which is why he initially calls them a baboon and then switches to a fake reason to attack them after.

[goats]

VOTE: Datisi

Don't like his slate of posting so far. 14, 44, 46 and 47 all feel like "yes, i am here and doing things in this game, and thinking about things, how are you fellow townies". Especially the latter two. I also feel like the statement "my rvs vote is no longer rvs"

has

to be >rand scum. It just has to be. I don't really see how 20 from me being a "vaguely pointless question" makes it a scummy post. I can certainly understand seeing that post as scummy but I don't like the way Datisi's described it.

I want to call N_M's play so far townie and am not sure what Gamma is talking about with MURDERCAT about it.

Lol, so scum

Town.

[goats]

So first of all, I'm not in a place where I can post lots of times per day. Most of my posting will come during my nighttime, and so it's gonna be somewhat sparse. Just flagging that now. I didn't wake up to 10+ pages so I feel hopeful that it won't be a problem here.

Over half of Gamma's posts have made me want to vote him so far, but that's probably a sign that I'm seeing things in his play that are NAI more than anything actually substantive.

Going to come back to trying to read him when there's more to work with.

Town.

[goats]

Gonna get an avatar soon. brb.

[goats]

How do you like this one?

[goats]

Vote Gamma with me.

[goats]

actually i think i'm gonna VOTE: bugspray

i don't think gamma provided any *great* rebuttals to bugspray, so the fact that they unvoted him anyway, and then voted implo (who just so happened to be the leading wagon) without any actual thoughts written out for why they did that? and with seeming a lot of confidence?

Did you see me explain why Gamma was most likely the mafia in that equation?

[goats]

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

This is outed actually. He was angry at bugspray being a baboon, implying anger at bugspray's stupidity or lack of reading comprehension. But then he votes bugspray on the basis that they were mafia and intentionally trying to make them look bad. Which makes them scum, not someone who lacks reading comprehension. I think Gamma is mafia who got tilted at being suspected for the wrong reasons by a townie who didn't read their post properly. Which is why he initially calls them a baboon and then switches to a fake reason to attack them after.

And this feels massively over explanatory for page 4/5...

That's because it is.

[goats]

That's the post I was addressing. My point was that Gamma was simultaneously implying that bugspray's post was a result of poor reading comprehension and also a result of scum tactics that they were known to use in the last game they played together. It doesn't make sense.

[goats]

What do you think 76 implies if not that bugs lacks reading comprehension then?

[goats]

Interesting interpretation.

[goats]

my interpretation of gamma is that in the first post he thought bugspray lacked reading comprehension but then it reminded him of a different game where they were pushing him in a way he felt was similar, so then he decided to vote.

i'm confident gamma is town

Let's say I accept your interpretation of Gamma's baboon comment.

What makes Gamma town beyond that?

[goats]

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

This is outed actually. He was angry at bugspray being a baboon, implying anger at bugspray's stupidity or lack of reading comprehension. But then he votes bugspray on the basis that they were mafia and intentionally trying to make them look bad. Which makes them scum, not someone who lacks reading comprehension. I think Gamma is mafia who got tilted at being suspected for the wrong reasons by a townie who didn't read their post properly. Which is why he initially calls them a baboon and then switches to a fake reason to attack them after.

And this feels massively over explanatory for page 4/5...

I don't like this, feels like you're embellishing calling it "massively" over explanatory

This is a huge reach.

VOTE: GuiltyLion

[goats]

Okay I got three pages in

GuiltyLion
Gamma Emerald
Not_Mafia
Flea the Magician
Infinity 324
MURDERCAT
Dwlee99

goats
bugspray
implosion
Klick
Datisi
PookyTheMagicalBear

My top is who I feel good about. They are town I think. Bottom people are the PoE, maybe if I ordered them in vibe of null to scummy it'd be like??

goats
PookyTheMagicalBear
Datisi
Klick
bugspray
implosion

why's murdercat in the top?

[goats]

People voting me (infinity and guilty) are probably town for kicking my butt into action.

I also just liked their posting before that too

NM made a good start calling reads and stuff. I don't know how to read him but also he just seems uninformed.

I liked Gamma's entrance, it was good.

Flea also had a good entrance.

Last time Murdercat was evil I caught him very quick which is a pseudo-meta tell and also my scumdar is broken BUT I think he is town here because I don't think he is evil.

So you are townreading Murdercat because he isn't obvious scum out the gate?

And you thought Gamma's entrance was good?

Nice, I knew my initial read about you was right.

[goats]

VOTE: Dwlee99

I wish I had two votes to give but I only have one.

[goats]

VOTE: Datisi

Don't like his slate of posting so far. 14, 44, 46 and 47 all feel like "yes, i am here and doing things in this game, and thinking about things, how are you fellow townies". Especially the latter two. I also feel like the statement "my rvs vote is no longer rvs"

has

to be >rand scum. It just has to be. I don't really see how 20 from me being a "vaguely pointless question" makes it a scummy post. I can certainly understand seeing that post as scummy but I don't like the way Datisi's described it.

I want to call N_M's play so far townie and am not sure what Gamma is talking about with MURDERCAT about it.

Explain what's wrong with the first four posts you quoted.

I... did? It's not like it's incredibly complicated or robust or anything. (And I'm not really interested in convincing anyone anymore so)

I meant why those four posts were the way you said they were.

But since you don't feel like convincing me I'll just stay unconvinced.

[goats]

did I troll implo into towntelling?

fuck im awesome

UNVOTE: implosion

carry on good citizens and hunt down evil-doers.

I heard murdercat is hiding in the forest somewhere being a baddie bad so maybe we yeet him instead.

Super townie.

[goats]

How do you feel about Dwlee Pooky?

[goats]

So as ever, I can't resist a bit of mech talk, even in an open.

Setup seems designed with maf only having night talk, but our setup has maf daytalk. Also given the stats on the wiki show that this game has a 73% scumwin rate, how're people feeling about this?

Funny because stats show that when goats is in the game town has a 95% win rate.

[goats]

Yeah I'm basically always voting Dwlee here especially after the talk about implosion's AtE.

Pooky, NM, Klick, and Infinity can be trusted. Maybe Flea.

I think GL's vote on Dwlee can easily be partnered. I would call GL my second top scumread right now.

[goats]

Goats why don't you like Gamma's entrance?

Starts off with a dumb busywork exercise that tries to show off how town he is. Then fluffs a bit. Then spends a few posts discrediting townreads on NM who I think is town.

Enough people have said that all this is in Gamma's townrange for me to accept that their play this game and the baboon thing are NAI. But it's a real stretch to call it actively townie unless you have TMI.

[goats]

I've said my piece. Your turn to tell me why Gamma's entrance was so alluring Dwlee.

[goats]

And infinity this isn't about Gamma himself right now, I'm more interested in Dwlee's response to Gamma.

[goats]

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

This is outed actually. He was angry at bugspray being a baboon, implying anger at bugspray's stupidity or lack of reading comprehension. But then he votes bugspray on the basis that they were mafia and intentionally trying to make them look bad. Which makes them scum, not someone who lacks reading comprehension. I think Gamma is mafia who got tilted at being suspected for the wrong reasons by a townie who didn't read their post properly. Which is why he initially calls them a baboon and then switches to a fake reason to attack them after.

And this feels massively over explanatory for page 4/5...

I don't like this, feels like you're embellishing calling it "massively" over explanatory

This is a huge reach.

VOTE: GuiltyLion

How is it a "reach" to say your post wasn't over explanatory, especially not "massively" so?

Because it was.

[goats]

Gamma wants to actually do something with his opening and use it to solve. It wasn't just the entrance specifically but also how he built off of it and showed how he wanted to use it to solve in a genuine way

What solving did Gamma do with his opening exercise? I didn't see him make many reads off it, he moved on really quick.

[goats]

Pooky, NM, Klick, and Infinity can be trusted. Maybe Flea.

I think GL's vote on Dwlee can easily be partnered. I would call GL my second top scumread right now.

Why Klick and why Flea?

and especially how would my vote on Dwlee make sense as a partner vote when this is explicitly a setup that punishes bussing more than usual? Like if I were scum the last thing I would be doing right now is voting a partner when I could probably come up with an excuse to vote almost anyone

I like Klick's 91. Flea is a lighter read but I liked the two reaction tests fae made (110 and 194). A little bit of gutread in there too tbh.

I don't care that the setup punishes bussing you made the vote very early on and in a context that allowed you to switch off him without incurring any suspicion whatsoever. You never outed a really strong scumread of him it was more like a "oh I can't find any other palatable options, guess I'll kick dwlee's ass in gear". All he has to do is show up and post and you have an excuse to shift the vote off him.

[goats]

thinking about it more I'm having a hard time seeing how us being partners is a genuine read or thought

VOTE: goats

oh look you shifted off dwlee.

It's almost like your initial vote on Dwlee could be easily moved anytime it was convenient for you, and to someone who's hard pushing him no less.

[goats]

think about how bad that sequence of events is.

1) GL votes dwlee
2) I accuse GL of being partners with dwlee
3) GL says "I can't possibly be partners with dwlee, I voted him one time!"
4) GL

unvotes dwlee and onto dwlee's loudest accuser

VOTE: GuiltyLion

[goats]

I already had a scum read of you independently, then I got a scumread on dwlee independently, and when I checked your interactions I see you softballing a vote on him so I say you could easily be partners. and lo and behold you immediately show up and try your best to dissuade everyone from that notion using faulty logic.

[goats]

3) GL says "I can't possibly be partners with dwlee, I voted him one time!"

This is not at all what I said, actually

yes it is man you said the setup discourages bussing so you can't be partners with dwlee because you're voting him.

[goats]

IT'S NOT DECENT TO STRONG EVIDENCE TO THE CONTRARY

it was a vote you threw out with no reasoning in the first few pages of the game that you shifted off soon after. you love to twist words don't you?

[goats]

I'm not engaging w/ you any more. I'm not gonna convince you to admit that you're scum and I'd rather let you sit here and dig a hole for yourself.

@everyone else vote GL if you want to become confirmed town for free after he flips mafia. no mafia would vote for another mafia d1 after all

[goats]

I'm not engaging w/ you any more. I'm not gonna convince you to admit that you're scum and I'd rather let you sit here and dig a hole for yourself.

@everyone else vote GL if you want to become confirmed town for free after he flips mafia. no mafia would vote for another mafia d1 after all

it looks like the not engaging strat is working out well for me eh?

[goats]

Gamma wants to actually do something with his opening and use it to solve. It wasn't just the entrance specifically but also how he built off of it and showed how he wanted to use it to solve in a genuine way

What solving did Gamma do with his opening exercise? I didn't see him make many reads off it, he moved on really quick.

Gamma talks about how the info gleaned from it can be used later for associatives and to get people a core group to discuss things with.

has gamma actually done any of that?

and if it's something that bears fruit d2 - shouldn't you be waiting until he actually comes through on it to townread him? otherwise he can easily make a bunch of promises and never actually follow through

it's strange to me that you're townreading him for essentially saying "i have this strategy that will produce good solves, but it will only come true later on", and you're townread him now for it, rather than when he actually produces results

[goats]

klick is town here, and I think datisi is townie too

[goats]

GL is flying to the ends of the known universe to convince us that no scum would ever vote each other and that it's """inconsistent""" to look at one player voting another and conclude that they could be partners, even if the vote is calculated to be minimally commital

[goats]

what's up beautiful people

[goats]

it looks we all agree GL is scum and that he should be hung from the neck until dead today. (yes, GL, I am gloating and you can't stop me.)

I am interested in why @implosion thinks that GL would not react like this if he is partners with Dwlee. especially with Dwlee continuing to defend him after his attack on me.

[goats]

@flea give me your strongest reads please. not just pokes and prods in response to posts, I'd like to know how you feel about the game as a whole.

[goats]

i kinda want to know if implosion and datisi are still in your bottom 4 actually

[goats]

ALSO why was implosion in your bottom 4 in the first place? that occurred after his display of emotion that was said to be out of his scumrange no? do you think they are lying?

[goats]

in spite of everything i find myself having an odd gut read that dwlee is town lol

[goats]

in spite of everything i find myself having an odd gut read that dwlee is town lol

when did this happen??

around 275

[goats]

in spite of everything i find myself having an odd gut read that dwlee is town lol

when did this happen??

around 275

surprisingly enough that post made me feel worse about them

idk if it's partnery, but it definitely sounds like a "scum defending a suspicious townie that they know wouldn't convince anyone". and also something rubbed me the wrong way about our exchange of:

- "why is this person town?"
- "i don't see scummy things"
- "okay, why are your scumreads scum?"
- "poe from finding town"

but maybe i'm nitpicking, i know i should stop tunnelling semantics. sometimes.

yeah i don't have a real reason for the read. it's purely gut. I'm not gonna ignore logic entirely and part of why I quizzed dwlee about their bottom four stuff was to try to figure them out a little b/c of the discrepancy between my gut and my logic. I'm really looking forward to their "re-eval" tbh.

[goats]

Datisi please reread goats posts assuming you had my green flip

The way he pushes me just vibes scum to me. Arrogant, making up narratives, not grounded in any genuine suspicion. I think he knows I'm green as well

I'm still not engaging w/ you but I'm not a he. just so you know.

arrogance is NAI for me btw

[goats]

oh yeah I guess I lied about not engaging with you because I'm really eager to hear your response to this:

multiple people (implosion, datisi, infinity) all echo the reason I had to scumread you (trying to convince us that you can't be partners with dwlee because you voted them one time). if im making up narratives and not arguing in good faith and my suspicion is just so bad it can't be genuine... what are they? scum too?

[goats]

who was the person who said murdercat is really obvious scum when they scum therefore they are townie here since they aren't obvious scum?

because I just read their iso and i think it's doo doo and they are obvious scum.

[goats]

oh yeah I guess I lied about not engaging with you because I'm really eager to hear your response to this:

multiple people (implosion, datisi, infinity) all echo the reason I had to scumread you (trying to convince us that you can't be partners with dwlee because you voted them one time). if im making up narratives and not arguing in good faith and my suspicion is just so bad it can't be genuine... what are they? scum too?

gentle reminder for GL in case he "forgot" about this

[goats]

@flea give me your strongest reads please. not just pokes and prods in response to posts, I'd like to know how you feel about the game as a whole.

You may be an alt but you don't know me that well it seems I rarely spew reads on demand.

alright.

do me a favor and go read murdercat's iso? it's not long I promise

[goats]

uh okay so this is definitely embarrassing but when I started going back through my old scum games/PTs to try to find good posts that would summarize why I don't like to awkwardly commit myself to suspecting/voting partners early game as scum, I actually realized that I forgot that I

did

recently try such a maneuver in my most recent scumgame last year, Forest Fire (link is to the initial distance vote)

here's my post after D1 in the maf PT where I am identifying how it put me in a bad spot, like this is pretty much exactly why I try to avoid it as scum because it played out risky/badly on D1 as expected. But it is kinda egg on my face to see I haven't been completely above trying that move, I remembered fighting with Ydrasse in game making posts more like this but forgot how tentative the initial distancing/vote was.

so while yes I guess I have done it before and maybe it's not unreasonable for someone to think that, I wasn't lying about how I don't

like

to do that as scum and I DO have the receipts of me saying this same thing as town:

1) here (last post before I was misyeeted in DnC, read this + quoted)
2) here ("the idea that I'd open the game as scum by pressuring my partner instead of anyone else I could go after is pretty questionable, to put it lightly")
3) here ("I can show you many past scumgames of me treating my newbie scum partners with kiddie gloves, especially on D1 since I don't like unnecessary attention on them until/unless I'm confident they can handle it." - this is speaking specifically about being partner with a newbie but the latter sentence is true for any partners)
4) here ("I doubt this one will mean a lot coming from me as it's WIFOM and self-meta, but as a point of pride, I really try very hard as scum not to be clumsy about my associatives with my partner. I'll always try to take a firm stance on them whether I'm bussing or townreading and commit to it, I don't make waffley awkward moves around them and if I decide to bus I commit. Later I can pull some scum PTs where I've said as much.")
5) here ("again, me being anyone's top possible scumread is fairly absurd, frankly. to think that I am scum means I decided to death tunnel one of my partners on D1 over literally any other available mislynch. I didn't just casually vote BuJaber as a distance and get stuck there, I put my foot on the gas for that lynch multiple times. Against a mason setup that's extremely suboptimal play" - this one is a slightly different context as I hardpushed scum!BuJaber to an eventual scumflip D1, but the phrasing/point is very similar with regard to a mason setup/white flag setup where Bussing is Bad with a capital B)

I'm not gonna go through all these links because it's a waste of my time, but none of this addresses the primary reason that people have to scumread you which is the part where you tried to paint me as mafia for suspecting you were partners with dwlee

unless you expect me to know this extremely extensive meta beforehand?

[goats]

oh yeah I guess I lied about not engaging with you because I'm really eager to hear your response to this:

multiple people (implosion, datisi, infinity) all echo the reason I had to scumread you (trying to convince us that you can't be partners with dwlee because you voted them one time). if im making up narratives and not arguing in good faith and my suspicion is just so bad it can't be genuine... what are they? scum too?

gentle reminder for GL in case he "forgot" about this

serious question: why the scare quotes? Why is every post of yours an attempt to make me look as bad as possible?

this is also an attempt at a "gotcha" contradiction rather than a good faith reading of my posts, the obvious difference in context is that you specifically claimed to scumread both of us and that you see us as partnered, then went on to say I had no "palatable options" of voting elsewhere.

Whereas the others are more pushing back on my scumread of you and my argument that YOUR argument is fake. I don't believe any of them claim to share your view that Dwlee/GL was S-S, that's the difference.

yeah man you got me. I'm trying to convince the rest of the town to vote you out and am making posts that insinuate you are mafia. you really exposed my hidden motivations there.

so what, people who scumread you and dwlee together are mafia but people who scumread you solo are ok? is infinity scum too for saying she thought it was >rand likely that you were s/s at the time?

[goats]

I am interested in why @implosion thinks that GL would not react like this if he is partners with Dwlee. especially with Dwlee continuing to defend him after his attack on me.

I think his frustration and rhetoric of "I wouldn't play like this as scum" reads as genuine/I think faking that kind of thing (just absolutely blatantly lying about self-meta and claiming he can back it up) is not the kind of thing GL would do there as scum with Dwlee.

I can agree with GL that Flea's 276 is somewhat shady. I can also agree with Datisi's 299 that that line from GL is somewhat townish.

More later at some point.

re: 299

if you think GL is not partners with Dwlee but has independent scum equity then you should be a lot less willing to give him cred for 299. b/c getting frustrated and throwing out a bunch of meta links to prove your accusers wrong is something that scum who is caught for the wrong reasons could easily say, too. in a world where GL is scum but not with Dwlee and he's upset that I'm suspecting him for being paired with Dwlee when he's really not... he might easily have that reaction and try to use meta to rebut the part of my accusation he actually can.

[goats]

The reeval you have all been waiting for

Gamma Emerald
PookyTheMagicalBear
Infinity 324
Dwlee99
implosion
Not_Mafia

Flea The Magician
GuiltyLion
Datisi
Klick
goats

bugspray
MURDERCAT

I now have a middle row for people that confuse me. Bask in the innovation I have created.

assume these tiers are unordered because you aren't at the top of the top tier

i like your bottom tier tho I obviously think GL should be in it. interested to know why you have datisi and klick in middle, i think they're both easy reads and town.

[goats]

why is guiltylion a "duh"? i don't think you actually said anything about him, other than you liked he kicked your ass into high gear, and then later on that you don't see anything scummy from him. did i miss you talking more in depth about him somewhere?

also uh, do you wanna talk about anything wrt me?

GuiltyLion is a duh because

his whole thing with goats is confusing to understand

what's confusing about it?

[goats]

can I have a vc please? I wanna see how many and which players are pushing CWs to GL.

^^^^^ attempt at making GL look bad ^^^^^

[goats]

So first of all, I'm not in a place where I can post lots of times per day. Most of my posting will come during my nighttime, and so it's gonna be somewhat sparse. Just flagging that now. I didn't wake up to 10+ pages so I feel hopeful that it won't be a problem here.

Over half of Gamma's posts have made me want to vote him so far, but that's probably a sign that I'm seeing things in his play that are NAI more than anything actually substantive.

Going to come back to trying to read him when there's more to work with.

Town.

This particular bit reads town to me. It's like, someone holding themselves back from making a read because they admit they could be biased. Weird and uncommon thing to fake as mafia, and if they were scum making a fake read on Gamma for agenda purposes they'd probably just drop the receipts and push it. There is a thread of uncertainty/self-doubt that feels genuine here but isn't being used to hedge.

257 was also good. Mindmelds with me regarding GL's vote on Dwlee being weird and has a read on Dwlee I thought was a lot more likely to come from town:

Dwlee's catchup doesn't feel like they want to convince me they're town, which make s me think they're town. Feels a lot more like disengaged town than scum with a team relying on their survival

This kinda stepping into other shoes stuff, trying to twist around and figure out mindsets and attitudes and whether or not someone is playing with a team, is something that is really hard to fake as scum (because you have to do an extra layer of it - you're stepping into the shoes of town stepping into the shoes of another player) but comes naturally for townies.

[goats]

why is klick town?

^ question answered above.

Klick's most recent post has good takes (goats good GL bad) so that seems fine too.

I am curious why bugspray is so high up and implosion is so low though @Klick

[goats]

bugspray and Pooky have both visited the site elsewhere but not here since the whole goats/GL thing, in a vacuum I find that slightly suspicious

btw since when are this kind of reads allowed?

[goats]

why is guiltylion a "duh"? i don't think you actually said anything about him, other than you liked he kicked your ass into high gear, and then later on that you don't see anything scummy from him. did i miss you talking more in depth about him somewhere?

also uh, do you wanna talk about anything wrt me?

GuiltyLion is a duh because

his whole thing with goats is confusing to understand

what's confusing about it?

Genuine frustration but as I said before it could be a caught for the wrong reasons thing and if he is town I kinda get what he is saying about your push on him? Which is why you're also in my confused pile.

why aren't you more inquisitive/curious about it? I'd expect you to poke and prod there and try to sort the two of us if you're confused but you seem content to let it go for now and just stick us into a blurry nullish bucket

[goats]

yeah man you got me. I'm trying to convince the rest of the town to vote you out and am making posts that insinuate you are mafia. you really exposed my hidden motivations there.

Just for the record, I'm going to stop engaging with this for a while. In the event you are town here we clearly have incompatible playstyles/ideas and I don't really see a way forward of me not fixating on a scumread on you, nor us actually ever getting to a point of working together productively if you can't stop antagonizing me with the arrogance and the sarcasm

if you have genuine or good faith questions for me that might help you understand why I think what I think better then bring them forward, but otherwise I'm going to have to tune you out so I can hold onto my desire to actually play this game

like, as one last attempt as a serious reply to this, the scare quotes are nothing more than a way of trying to make me defensive. Missing posts or forgetting to reply to them isn't scummy and you sure as [censored for cyrus] should know that. I

always

make good on replying to things if people call out that I've missed them.

And this question you originally wanted me to reply to (as well as a bunch of your newer posts), it honestly saps my will to play if I try to reply to all of them. They're phrased leadingly, they're littered with subtle strawmen/misrepresentations of my posts, and the worst part is I'm sure that even if I did sit down and try to patiently tease out where you're twisting my words or trying to manipulate the thread perception around what I said, you'll just immediately jump in afterwards with a bunch more 'gotcha's, yanking me into an endless rabbit hole of this kind of pseudo bravado and tanking the gamestate into a toxic 1v1.

I almost think I might just

want

to think that you're scum because it's unpleasant to deal with people who play like this as town. it's been a while since I've been tunneled by someone so arrogantly in this way and I really just don't vibe with it.

tl;dr

[goats]

bugspray and Pooky have both visited the site elsewhere but not here since the whole goats/GL thing, in a vacuum I find that slightly suspicious

btw since when are this kind of reads allowed?

It happens, some people don’t like it but it happens
The validity is mixed

on the usual site i play on you'd get a warning from the mods at least

i guess this is the wild west

[goats]

guiltyloion is obvtown i sus datisi, implo, and flea

you are scum just for these reads

[goats]

sup homies.

I'd do another long ass wall post but most ya'all didn't read my last wallpost so I'm gonna keep this short and simple.

MurderCat's "Iso"


VOTE: MurderCat


Dude's choking.

I don't believe Mr. Paragon can't come up with a single thought in an entire week.

Plus he chokes as scum all the time.

any comments on the following individuals: GL, dwlee, flea

[goats]

GL is tone so take that for what it's worth (not much for the people scum reading there I bet)
Gamma is for doing something similar to a town game I was in with him
Infinity and I are masons (less likely to go e me time to post as scum)
Implo also tone and wagon dynamics but I've liked some of his thoughts as well
NM I feel like I can read based on previous games as crazy as that sounds, but it's too early to talk about my read on him
Flea I don't think ever posts 320 as scum, it's too genuine

why are all of your townreads tone and "they did something similar to a previous town game"

[goats]

goats, buddy, why are you trying to make me scumread you with posts like 393?

i gave that post the response it deserves

[goats]

This kinda stepping into other shoes stuff, trying to twist around and figure out mindsets and attitudes and whether or not someone is playing with a team, is something that is really hard to fake as scum (because you have to do an extra layer of it - you're stepping into the shoes of town stepping into the shoes of another player) but comes naturally for townies.

reskimming again, i'm not sure i vibe with this read. mainly, a read like "this person is lazy so probably town" feels like one of the easier reads to fake as scum, because you don't really have to put nuance into it or analyze if their few reads are scum or town motivated, you just slap a "lazy town" sticker on it and move on. not saying those kinda reads don't come from town, but goats painting it as "really hard to fake as scum" rubs me the wrong way

i think you are misunderstanding my read

I'm not saying that "this person is lazy so probably town" is hard to fake

I'm saying that klick noticed that dwlee was putting forward an argument but not really trying to hammer it down their throats or be super convincing about the way they push that narrative. I think town notices that a lot more often than scum because they're more attentive to what people are trying to do to them whereas scum is usually only concerned about what they do to other people.

[goats]

is that not essentially the same or very similar thing? like someone isn't trying to play hard, that can be easily spun into "they're not trying to convince us that they're town so town". like, i dunno, i feel like if scum!klick wanted to townread dwlee for some reason, like if dwlee is a partner or if he wanted to have some more Controversial reads, that feels like a relatively easy avenue to take if he's working backwards like that

maybe

in the moment it just felt like klick taking note of dwlee's effort to convince him or lack thereof was a townie observation

[goats]

Two more votes on GL please. Tied MURDERCAT/GL wagons would make my day.

[goats]

sup homies.

I'd do another long ass wall post but most ya'all didn't read my last wallpost so I'm gonna keep this short and simple.

MurderCat's "Iso"


VOTE: MurderCat


Dude's choking.

I don't believe Mr. Paragon can't come up with a single thought in an entire week.

Plus he chokes as scum all the time.

any comments on the following individuals: GL, dwlee, flea

@pooky

[goats]

the tentative/fencey way he's since approached it that goats/Infinity are calling out I could imagine being scum unsure how to play around me

to try to explain this better cause I phrased it poorly cause tired, I vibe with what Infinity is pointing out that Dwlee said he townread me but didn't have any followup or questioning towards goats to further sort whether goats' push was town-motivated. I could see that being scum that doesn't want to vote on the wagon and look dirty if it goes through but at the same time isn't necessarily invested in slowing momentum of goats pushing the wagon - that hesitance of 'wanting the wagon to go through without me on it' is what I mean by "play around me"

lollll when did i become so town to you that you're pushing people i callout and insinuating that i am a townie that scum is trying to egg on

[goats]

Also regarding you and goats it just isn't a priority for me to figure out right now. Neither of you are up for lim today and there's no point in me putting in effort with less information when I can do it with more later

vote GL and he'll be up for lim. we still have lots of time left

[goats]

how come?

[goats]

More info will help us read him later in the game. Right now I think we hit scum limming in bugs/murdercat

that's a cop out answer and now I think you're partners again

GL has posted repeatedly this day phase and the case against as well as for him has been hashed out in great detail. how do you have no way to read him whatsoever?

[goats]

i reread it

still don't get why you aren't making an effort to sort GL when he has so much content this day phase to read into and want to just sit back and let info in future days help you read him

[goats]

Regarding goats: it really feels like they're using their GL scumread as a laurel to rest on. 393 (which Datisi mentioned looked scummy to him) is just... extremely

not

the reply that post deserves. That post was aggressively pro-town, it just reads to me as a townie desperately trying to both stop the gamestate from becoming harder to play in and to reach out and try to correct an erroneous scumread that is perceived to potentially cost like two miselims. If goats literally started reading that post and then decided to stop I'm just skeptical that they're really trying to discern alignments.

I don't think arrogance is necessarily scummy, but I think goats is, simply put, tunneling (yes they have indicated another scumread on MURDERCAT, yes they are still tunneling on GL) and I think it's a scummy tunnel. Things like 412 and the already-mentioned by me a couple posts ago 351 feel performative. Almost all of goats's analysis this game day has been through a lens of GuiltyLion-is-scum; ironically, despite me earlier defending them because they were claiming independent scumreads on GL and Dwlee, it feels like most of what goats posts now would just fall away and become empty if GL were to flip town. There's not even a slight twinge of potentially being wrong, not a sliver when, again, lots of players are saying GL is acting townish now. Sometimes they're trying to dispel those people's reads but idk, it just feels off to me. I feel like none of their other analysis has been nearly as up to snuff as their detailed breakdown of GL and that breakdown has been, in retrospect, kind of one-dimensional given that I think GL's play at this point has a lot of depth to it.

i don't think GL has done anything townie and I'm behaving accordingly

i have probably analyzed more players than you btw

[goats]

I'm bored of this game.

[goats]

i hate the bugspray wagon actually

[goats]

bugspray hasn't been townie but you're all switching from a LHF wagon to another LHF wagon after the first LHF put some serious effort in and no longer became LHF. all the votes are naked and there's no resistance to it at all

[goats]

VOTE: dwlee99

[goats]

Goats seems desperate to stop the bugs wagon so maybe we are on the right track?

yeah one person thinking a wagon is bad means they're partners and the wagon is good actually

excellent logic dwlee

[goats]

all the votes are naked

VOTE: dwlee99

what about it

[goats]

name two people in this game other than me that want bugspray to live today. go

[goats]

name two people in this game other than me that want bugspray to live today. go

FWIW this read is also applicable to the mcat wagon. my bad for not picking it up earlier. but now mcat is acting much townier so it was probably right then and I don't see why it isn't right now

[goats]

dwlee is pooky mafia too?

[goats]

but pooky also said bugspray wasn't scum for much the same reasons i did

and you just said that I was scum for trying to derail the bugspray wagon

[goats]

what's up this is my first time looking at the thread

[goats]

why would I reassess on you GL? have you done anything worth reassessing? have you voted out scum or shown me how you're out of your scum range?

until then all you've done is write long wordy posts that sound v reasonable and nice to get people to townread you and thrown about some easily faked frustration here and there and suddenly the whole game is eating out of your hand when they agreed you were scummy af before. i don't buy it.

[goats]

for legal reasons "af" is an abbreviation for "as fish". just so y'all know

[goats]

i think dwlee immediately seeing me as scum trying to derail the bugspray wagon but then being apathetic towards pooky having a similar line of thought is suggestive that they have a specific agenda and only care about those reasons when it's convenient to push that agenda

i would like a wagon that isn't bugspray or murdercat and if you guys don't want to do GL I think dwlee is a good alternative

[goats]

i think dwlee immediately seeing me as scum trying to derail the bugspray wagon but then being apathetic towards pooky having a similar line of thought is suggestive that they have a specific agenda and only care about those reasons when it's convenient to push that agenda

also this feels like again you're gloss over how there's like, worlds of context whenever two people make similar-at-a-surface-level arguments, and that context will affect how someone looks at one player vs another. The "we both made the same argument so either you consider us both scum or you're scum" reasoning isn't doing it for me, sorry

it's almost like I asked him what the difference is and he 100% dodged the question

[goats]

why would I reassess on you GL? have you done anything worth reassessing? have you voted out scum or shown me how you're out of your scum range?

I'll unpause the goats mute to respond to this - I feel I already tried to show you one example of how I'm not playing how I like to play as scum and you didn't try to meet me there at all. I would hope my reads/thoughts should get me to clearly town status the longer I'm in this game, I'm already battling for top 3 in postcount that's another thing I can't do as scum

that's a lot of unsupported assertions

[goats]

why would I reassess on you GL? have you done anything worth reassessing? have you voted out scum or shown me how you're out of your scum range?

until then all you've done is write long wordy posts that sound v reasonable and nice to get people to townread you and thrown about some easily faked frustration here and there and suddenly the whole game is eating out of your hand when they agreed you were scummy af before. i don't buy it.

This post is not how town with a continued scumread acts.

Town here will talk to other people to convince them of gl being scum. Town has no reason to explain to gl why they’re not reassessing him.

Scum will talk to gl because it performs confidence in the scumread.

yeah you're right that post was directed at GL. it was him I wanted to convince. when I said "all you've done is write long wordy posts that sound reasonable but aren't actually townie", and that there's no good reason to clear him, what I actually wanted to do was communicate that to him so he can improve his scum game for the future, rather than highlighting it to the rest of the game.

[goats]

hi I'm here again I'm esooa I've read nothing

[goats]

oh shit Northside and flea are here?

[goats]

hello, sorry; depression

Gonna try a different approach. Instead of deep reading everything at once I'm just gonna discuss what I care about in the present.
Ive lightly skimmed everything up to this point. Two major things that stuck out to me:

- Pooky is likely town. I think scum!Pooky is likely to actually stick to his 25 post limit meme (or otherwise never make it in the first place). If Pooky were scum here, the decision to start trying hard gives away a fair amount about his scumteam (ie that he'd be feeling the heat and decided to jump in because he's worried his team is struggling, or something along those lines). I don't think scum!Pooky does this, especially in this setup; ergo, Pooky probtown.

- Dwlee's approach to nsg's replacement/catchup is giving me weird vibes and I wanna sort out why, because earlier Dwlee was feeling towny to me

Tangentially related, hello nsg, glad to be playing with you even if it was not entirely by choice lol

Depression.

[goats]

I don't understand the op, what day phase is it?

[goats]

I just skimmed the last two pages looking at nothing but post frequency/size and I'd say dwlee is a wolf based off this

[goats]

You've never seen Titus ask for wagons between two players without the immediate intention of limming one of them? I know you aren't this dense.

Do I really have to argue that forcing people to commit between Dwlee and myself is protown in the case one of us ever flips?

do you think murdercat is scum?

r u just scum with murdercat lol

cursory town reads on these posts

[goats]

which previous posts in the game are yours?

Zero of them. Wait no I said what's up last night while drunk I think

[goats]

Everywhere I look Guilty Lions is making large posts and I think they're mostly content so that's a very good look

[goats]

omg not mafia is in this game? VOTE: not mafia

[goats]

well my day 1 vote has been decided

anyways

[goats]

I think I wanna try something a bit different this game. During the first couple days of D1, I want everyone to pick out two people. For the rest of D1, you must treat them as hard town, working with them to try and form reads, push scum, and solve the game. I think in a setup like this, a tactic like what I’m suggesting could bear some tasty fruit.

I already have a my two picks kinda set in my head and I’d rather people make selections before interactions start to really get going, so to start us off I’m picking Infinity324 and MURDERCAT.

Okay that would be flea and NSG cause they're the people I like the most here (I don't know most of the rest)

[goats]

Everywhere I look Guilty Lions is making large posts and I think they're mostly content so that's a very good look

??

are you discussing this game with your hydra partner?

Not at all. This account was made to teach someone myself and the 3rd hydra partner know how to play mafia. I kinda just got lumped in without even being asked though LMAO so I've not participated much. However other games I'm in have ended recently and I was bored so I'm here

[goats]

I think goats is scum now

fastest omgus in the west

[goats]

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

The first two people to join me here will be hard town for the rest of D1

towny aggression imo

[goats]

i'm surprised to hear i'm one of your favorites after only one game (really more like half a game from me). it's still appreciated, though.

well your profile picture is really cute tbh

and I appreciate more, not distanced but, less emotionally involved, analytical players. They calm games down. That was my impression of your play

[goats]

The most manufactured scumread I think I've seen. Scumreads me for post size when they do the same sort of posts as me.

Yeah I'm about to churn out buckets of content you're hanging back and lightly poking at things. Considering how briefly I've been in thread I don't believe this is real at all.

[goats]

The most manufactured scumread I think I've seen. Scumreads me for post size when they do the same sort of posts as me.

Yeah I'm about to churn out buckets of content you're hanging back and lightly poking at things. Considering how briefly I've been in thread I don't believe this is real at all.

You said you read two pages lmfao

Actually I didn't read them I skimmed then without reading barely anything. And you're omgusing me. Before I even make real reads. Cause you're a wolf

[goats]

That's the use of snap reads they out wolves without even trying

[goats]

Not at all. This account was made to teach someone myself and the 3rd hydra partner know how to play mafia. I kinda just got lumped in without even being asked though LMAO so I've not participated much. However other games I'm in have ended recently and I was bored so I'm here

is there any kind of discord/PT where your other heads are discussing things?

p-edit: Flea I did already give the main one several times - you shaded me repeatedly while goats was hardpushing me yet never voted me. The secondary one is you haven't engaged with most of the slots in the game and haven't voted beyond your RVS this entire day phase, I'm not seeing any solving coming out of your play just dirt repeatedly thrown at me whenever you do post

p-p-edit: all these posts holy [Cyrus]

Yes, but I had it on mute until last night. Nothing has been said since that point irt to the game, my partner said they stayed up all night with someone and can't contribute today was all when I asked them

[goats]

implosion is scum

This is interesting as I've never seen NM give a read this early ever. However I dislike it as I don't understand the read and past that I find trolly type players act more "normal" when wolfing

[goats]

VOTE: Implosion
I'm trusting the cow

this post is kinda wtf

[goats]

I choose Not_Mafia as the first of my hardtowns

NM likely town imo

what the fuck no no n

[goats]

I can't be bothered to explain why but you can just take my word for it

Not doing this unless you do something to justify me trusting you

I mean, just read his posts

you might be right but I’m still not taking your word on just about anything yet

NM likely town imo

I feel like you should be the

least

likely person other than me to TR what NM is doing

Pooky too ig but since I’m trusting your voice rn I want to make it clear I think you’re walking into a pitfall you’ve already been in

Gammas reads here feel natural

[goats]

when i read 20, it did feel to me like a vaguely pointless question, so seeing n_m's 21 right after it was nice. n_m can be town for now, and my rvs vote is no longer rvs.

Aren't pointless questions just a facet of first page posts? I don't understand this

[goats]

i was gonna make a post saying how i also didn't like guiltylion, because him naked voting implo without any given thought felt odd, because in the coalition run i recently modded, he voted on page one after providing decent reasoning first. ...and then i went to actually *check* the game, and realized that no, i misremembered, he naked voted there too and provided reasoning later. so nevermind, carry on.

okay this is towny though

[goats]

I actually have a real read on NM for once and it's that he's a wolf, one never seen him give a fuck as town at all even when people get mad at him constantly for anti town. Wolves care about they're presence way more though

[goats]

wow that post is awful in terms of typos sorry

[goats]

That moment when the rules list is a direct rip of mine with some minor modifications xD

VOTE: implosion

weh vote

[goats]

i also think gamma opener is p wack even if it's nai
VOTE: gamma

bro datisi whats up me dude?

bad

[goats]

dwlee likely town for that.

can you elaborate on this one? I don't see how that post makes Dwlee any more likely town, he's just accepting a townread on him from Flea

I also don't vibe with your Datisi scumread, I feel 47 is town!indicative from him because if he were scum wanting to bullshit a read on me he would have likely checked the Coalition game first to see whether he could find something different in my play, rather than claiming suspicion first without checking. Forgetting that I naked voted in the last game doesn't feel to me like the kind of fake thought process that scum would make up if he knew I'm town here

It doesn't have to do with him being one of Flea's townreads (I didn't notice that, so if that's what Dwlee was doing then ignore this); I had thought Flea's posting looked townish at a glance but not enough to mention it and I think it's not a read that scum has that much incentive to give at that moment. The thread hadn't been posted in for an hour and I think it's more likely for town to come in and say "this opening looks town" than for scum to come in and give a townread on someone who had no reads on them yet.

Regarding Datisi: I don't think the forgetting that you naked voted is fake? I don't see why scum Datisi can't have seen your vote here and said "oh, i think this is a difference in GL's play" and then gone back and seen that it wasn't. The read on him is partially tonal as well.

actually I dislike the first paragraph here as that's just... not true? Why would a wolf not be able to just town read someone as a way of participating? That's like completely normal. This feels like an extremely TMI post irt their town read

[goats]

It doesn't have to do with him being one of Flea's townreads (I didn't notice that, so if that's what Dwlee was doing then ignore this); I had thought Flea's posting looked townish at a glance but not enough to mention it and I think it's not a read that scum has that much incentive to give at that moment. The thread hadn't been posted in for an hour and I think it's more likely for town to come in and say "this opening looks town" than for scum to come in and give a townread on someone who had no reads on them yet.

townpost

no. Dislike this too but I'm not sure a wolf gives such a flat matter of fact town read on another wolf. Maybe there will be explanation later though so yeah

[goats]

I disagree with most of what Klick says in their first post but I think the post is towny

[goats]

NewGoats can you please condense this catchup if you're going to do the entire game

I finished page 5 but I need to get back to other things now. Might skim some others and give thoughts that are more important I just wanted to give thoughts while I was here. Should be more later and on my computer which will make it easiest to write posts for readability. I don't really bother with that on mobile

[goats]

hi I'm here again I'm esooa I've read nothing

Oh shoot I haven’t played with you since that newbie!

Lmao yup. I've been playing a ton on MU since and have a bit of a reputation :p

yes I like gloating

I'm in champs SFs starting on the 30th it's hype

anyways hi

[goats]

Dwlee do you have a read on my posts that isn't "they wolf read me!"

[goats]

Okay well you're a wolf

[goats]

My posts are towny af

[goats]

VOTE: dwlee

[goats]

Yes that makes me more town here

[goats]

You avoided the game for multiple RL days how is that town indicative for you here

I'm not interested in arguing with a wolf who is invested in disagreement

[goats]

You avoided the game for multiple RL days how is that town indicative for you here

I'm not interested in arguing with a wolf who is invested in disagreement

And I don't see how "Esooa is a wolf for wolf reading me and I have nothing to say about anything else she posted" isn't that so yeah

[goats]

And I was right that's the best part

[goats]

Are we not allowed to swear?

[goats]

What the [Cyrus]

[goats]

So first of all, I'm not in a place where I can post lots of times per day. Most of my posting will come during my nighttime, and so it's gonna be somewhat sparse. Just flagging that now. I didn't wake up to 10+ pages so I feel hopeful that it won't be a problem here.

Over half of Gamma's posts have made me want to vote him so far, but that's probably a sign that I'm seeing things in his play that are NAI more than anything actually substantive. Going to come back to trying to read him when there's more to work with.
That being said:

how quickly you contradict yourself is pretty weird, these two statements cannot exist together

Reading my thoughts right after I have them is always a good sign. bugspray can be town.

when i read 20, it did feel to me like a vaguely pointless question, so seeing n_m's 21 right after it was nice. n_m can be town for now, and my rvs vote is no longer rvs.

Datisi uses a similar method to get a townread on NM here, something something we're thinking along the same lines and that is vaguely towny? Dunno. It's entirely possible that I just want to have a townread on Datisi.

VOTE: Datisi

Don't like his slate of posting so far. 14, 44, 46 and 47 all feel like "yes, i am here and doing things in this game, and thinking about things, how are you fellow townies". Especially the latter two. [...] I don't really see how 20 from me being a "vaguely pointless question" makes it a scummy post.

Is overtly trying to appear towny something that town are less likely to do than scum early on? It's the question I'm asking myself in regards to Gamma actually I think. A lot of Gamma's posts are reading as 'hello, look at me, being town, this is what I think town is supposed to do.' But I've seen enough instances of that being a townie's line of play that I'm hesitant to call it a scumtell.

You literally skipped the post with the connection you absolute baboon

This post and the following conversation don't feel like a productive use of posts tbh. Your plan involves some fairly abstract thinking, and someone not paying close attention is going to misinterpret things how bugspray did (as someone who read it the same way bugspray did). This should possibly be taken as a sign that your plan is a vector of distraction from scumhunting.

Gotta go for now, still a few posts towards the end of this page I haven't read very closely but this is a start at least

I thought this was her first post. Forgot about that one by the time I got around to this I guess

[goats]

wow this game has 39 pages

[goats]

People voting me (infinity and guilty) are probably town for kicking my butt into action.

I also just liked their posting before that too

NM made a good start calling reads and stuff. I don't know how to read him but also he just seems uninformed.

I liked Gamma's entrance, it was good.

Flea also had a good entrance.

Last time Murdercat was evil I caught him very quick which is a pseudo-meta tell and also my scumdar is broken BUT I think he is town here because I don't think he is evil.

this is nothing but town reads

[goats]

I don't really have the focus to catchup, just gonna do some ISO's on people I don't have reads on then give my view of the game atp

[goats]

Changed my mind about that too

I wolf read NM, Dwlee, and Implo. I don't remember their interactions but I doubt this is the solve. Oh yeah, NM pushed Implo a lot? There's probably something else if I'm remembering it being important.

I actually read Bugspray's ISO and it was bad but I haven't read NSG's posts so I don't exactly want to say NSG is a wolf for Bugsprays posts but I'd lean there atm

Oh wait I'm supposed to have them as lock town, ignore that

I haven't read a single thing from Flea so I skimmed faer iso. First thing I noticed is fae didn't do any catchup walls I normally see from faer. Fae commented about this a couple times, saying things like "I'm here I'm queer, I'm in a shit mood so I ain't reading up"

I think lower wim like this is typically scum indicative, but I don't know Flea too well and they did say "So far I am more consistent and higher effort as scum than I am as town, though" later on. I'm probably going to ask my hydra partner about this slot rather than attempt to make any real read myself, tbh, but I'd say scum lean myself

MUDERCAT looks alright, also on a skim; mostly from post 484. I'll consider their Implo read.

Their NM read actually has me thinking NM might just be thread spewed? He's receiving so many town reads (including even, I'm seeing now, from Pooky somehow), and while I typically don't like these kinda reads if I was a wolf with NM I would bus the hell out of that guy. Maybe the prior town reads on him though would negate that. Meh. He's still wolfy imo.

Okay I'm not reading Pooky's thing and so I'm just gonna sheep there

If I didn't mention someone it's likely I town read them. My top town is Gamma. Oh, I suppose I may as well explain my GuiltyLion read. Basically they post too much to be a wolf, lol. Bite me. Sort by post count is a thing, and while they're not top posting, a vast majority of their posts are solvey and they just seem like a consistent presence in that regard. Maybe I'm missing some stuff as this is cursory but until I see that I have them as decently strong town

[goats]

didn't talk about Dwlee as my position is out there and already obvious, but I still think everything they're doing is just wolfy, lmao. I'll case them later if necessary but for right now I'm not too interested in doing that

[goats]

yes

[goats]

[goats]

oooh a nice fat dwlee wagon

[goats]

Dwlee, my read on you was literally as cursory as it gets. I'm not wolf reading you for having short posts. I'm wolf reading you for having bad posts and reads now. Like for example still being stuck on my literal entry to the thread and having absolutely nothing to say about anything I posted after that fact. This is Esooa btw, and I've read nothing but this page and am going to leave again now

Dwlee is a wolf

[goats]

Actually I'm back hi

[goats]

Your first post was saying I'm scum for short posts, and then you scumread me for saying that was bullshit. That's your entire progression.

Yup

[goats]

We can just vote off Dwlee I'm annoyed his responses are so bad so I changed my mind and am leaving

[goats]

I carried ngl