Mini Normal 2170: Stuff I’m Listening To [Game Over]

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daykill: pooky

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Hello everyone, glad to be playing with all of you.
I will withhold my vote for now.

Why?

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VOTE: kazumeat

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Hello everyone, glad to be playing with all of you.
I will withhold my vote for now.

Why?

I didn't feel strongly enough about anything to warrant voting yet.

How does a game start if no one votes when theres no information?

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Also I was going to treat you like a noob and give you the benefit of the doubt that you don't know how RVS works but given that your account was created in 2014 and you have like zero posts on it it seems pretty clear you're an alt.

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VOTE: blitzo

real vote 34 is weird

I'm trying to parse 34 here too and I agree its weird though I'm not really sure what to make of it.

The tone of the post is like someone who hasn't played mafia before and doesn't know how RVS works but the fact that the account is from 2014 and this game is the first time its posted literally ever on the site it makes me think its someone trying to play up that tone on an alt.

I don't know if that's alignment indicative at all since presumably that would be a decision made by the player before the game started, but I definitely agree with you its weird.

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You are correct that I am not new, and I have made no effort to hide that fact.

it's not whether or not you have made an effort to hide that fact that bugs me, its that you seem to not know how RVS works in the sense that you're saying things like "I don't have enough information to vote." It's a type of comment that I've really only seen made by extremely new players of the game.

You say you are not new, but you are acting in ways that make it seem like you're trying to pretend you're new, or genuinely don't know how the first day of mafia starts generally speaking.

Its incongruous, so I'm picking at it.

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Also the kasus posts keep pinging me.

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How so?

This looks like fake question to me because the implication was obvious

Don't like this post either.

I don't think blitzos question was "what do you think the implication of me saying this is" but rather "what do you think in that post is weird."

Which seems like a totally reasonable thing for blitzo to wonder about you voting him and saying the post was weird without further explanation.

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In what way is someone asking you to explain what you find weird fake?

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Oh wait I totally misunderstood murdercat. the "how so?" was the part of the post they were saying was weird. In my mind I don't know why but I thought there was a post of blitzo asking "how so?" in response to murdercat saying the post was weird.

Derp. Carry on.

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Ok pooky I need you to focus who is the scum

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nah I'm only here for you baby

X

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nah

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its what they tell me

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Blitzo stuff is...strange but I'm not sure if it can actually be extrapolated in a way the hints to Alignment. The most it could be is very minor scumlean since you can argue their abstinence from voting is obfuscating information but that's quite a stretch.

Either way, if he's going to be troublesome to read, I'd rather have a wagon on him right now.

VOTE: Blitzo

Don't love this post even a little bit.

There's a whole bunch of stuff that happened wrt blitzo with murdercat and myself being involved and kasu voting for them, and you just ignored it completely because "blitzo is going to be troublesome to read?

Why not read the stuff that already exists to read instead of just glossing it over to vote for something you said is non-alignment indicative?

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I get BoP'd because I've been around for ever, not because I have even the smallest amount of competency at this game.

I think I was pretty active in the team mafia game we played together as scum, so I'm not really sure what your defense is saying here.

I'm not sure how being active and having drive relates to BoP tbh?

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defense being the wrong word, something like "gut read" would be more accurate.

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Maybe the BoP just had to do with you being alive at that point, but even still I recall something about you not having caught the scum that had previously flipped being used against you
Plus I just like the questions you’ve asked so far outside of a meta scope

iirc A50 repeatedly said in the team thread for one of the teams that me being still alive made me scum and that scum would have long ago killed me.

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I just want to nudge on this a bit though because I still don't understand the connection you're making between me being attacked for BoP in White Flag and how you're reading me in this game? I just don't understand how they relate to each other.

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How can you meta someone off of a scum game without comparing it to a town game?

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Then share with the class. You didn't talk about it at all so as far as we can tell you're ignoring them.

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I meant your thoughts on me murdercat and kasu

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are you an alt/hydra?

unless rules have changed hydras arent allowed in normal games.

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How so?

This looks like fake question to me because the implication was obvious

Don't like this post either.

I don't think blitzos question was "what do you think the implication of me saying this is" but rather "what do you think in that post is weird."

Which seems like a totally reasonable thing for blitzo to wonder about you voting him and saying the post was weird without further explanation.

We didn't really talk about this after you understood what I was saying, do you agree that "How so" looks weird?

I made a post about what I found weird in their post. TBH the "how so?" doesn't ring weird to me compared to the rest.

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FWIW if you're looking to pocket me I'll accept bribes in the form of nice whiskey.

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I can't quite put my finger on it but I don't like much of what murdercat has posted over the last page or so.

Bulge's entrance feels pretty town to me.

I'm still having trouble making heads or tails of blitzo. Like, they just quoted a post where I literally said "you're doing a thing that I literally only see extremely new players do" with the question "but what did I do to make you think I was new" or whatever and its just such a weird response.

Still dont love GEs interactions with me too much either.

Nothing super crazy but some minor scum pings.

I wish pooky would do anything of consequence.

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The point is Blitzo I townread people who are thinking like me and I scumread those who aren't (on day 1 at least).

Maybe, I am guilty of this myself.

This isnt super game related or anything but I think this is objectively a bad way to play mafia in general.

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I don't understand why thinking similarly to you would be any more alignment indicative on 6 than it would be on 60.

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See the problem I have with that is it assumes that you are the one who is right.

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And also assumes that irrational people are more likely to be scum, which I can assure you is not the case.

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I actually think that scum on average put more effort into making their posts logical and consistent than town do because they're actively crafting them to deceive whereas I find town tend to have more inconsistencies on average because they're just saying things they think as they occur to them.

Not to say that scum cant be inconsistent but given that scum have a specific narrative they're trying to create and town don't I tend to think that small little inconsistencies and lapses in logic are slight town tells to me.

But I'm gunna shut up about this because its just OOG theory and not particularly useful.

[Thestatusquo]

Please call me Shea if you don't mind.

I've gotten minor scum pings from murdercat GE you and outworld to some extent. Nothing serious, just minor things that rub me wrong. I also don't like Kasus vote but I think its more likely just an RVS thing than anything else so I'm putting a pin in it.

I get pretty decent town pings from the bulge.

So like thats a lot of words to say "I don't really have a heck of a lot."

If I had to put a gun to my head in terms of a deadline I'd probably vote for gamma or murder.

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I think its worth noting that theres not a ton of content from the vast majority of players in the game so I'd really like to hear more from them. There's probably 1 or 2 scum hiding in the players who haven't really been involved in the game yet.

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I feel like I should post more tonight but I'm very tired so I'll head to bed and try to engage with this game more in the morning.

take care of yourself. it's been a hell of a week.

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Dammit guys I thought the shitposting would last longer and I'd be safe to go out drinking last night after work, oh well.

I can think of at least one other reason why its not safe to go out drinking after work...

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Scotch is mostly overrated

my ranking for whiskey right now is

Japan > Bourbon > Irish > Scotch

You left off rye which is the best one.

Also VOTE: pooky

Please talk about the game even a little bit.

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You know what, pressing pooky can wait. I'm pretty into yeeting Kasu I think.

VOTE: kasumeat

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Hello everyone, glad to be playing with all of you.
I will withhold my vote for now.

Why?

Seriously. Why would anyone be glad to be playing mafia?

VOTE: Blitzo

I didn't like this vote because it felt like you were trying to ramp up a wagon while still pretending to be a RVS vote.

There was discussion happening around this statement so you were either ignoring that discussion or werent interested in having it. You had already made your joke opening vote for trying to claim that you werent voting for real is a stretch to me, especially since there was already information out there. It just rings kind of fishy to me. The whole interaction reads kind of fishy to me.

Post 40 and 103 is more indication that its not a random vote, but they're harping lines of questioning that I was already having without adding anything additional of substance for something that literally the player would have had to decide to do pre-game, which I pointed out at the time.

Post 154 is basically just you reiterating that what you are suspecting blitzo for is not really alignment indicative.

Then after that you start harping on not active people, which brings us to your post 176 which basically says "I'm going to ignore all the content that has happened so far in the game I want to yeet the guy who has done the weird thing that is NAI or some lurker."

It doesn't add up to me. It just doesn't look like you're earnestly trying to find scum.

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I didn't like this vote because it felt like you were trying to ramp up a wagon while still pretending to be a RVS vote.

There was discussion happening around this statement so you were either ignoring that discussion or werent interested in having it. You had already made your joke opening vote for trying to claim that you werent voting for real is a stretch to me, especially since there was already information out there. It just rings kind of fishy to me. The whole interaction reads kind of fishy to me.

Post 40 and 103 is more indication that its not a random vote, but they're harping lines of questioning that I was already having without adding anything additional of substance for something that literally the player would have had to decide to do pre-game, which I pointed out at the time.

Post 154 is basically just you reiterating that what you are suspecting blitzo for is not really alignment indicative.

Then after that you start harping on not active people, which brings us to your post 176 which basically says "I'm going to ignore all the content that has happened so far in the game I want to yeet the guy who has done the weird thing that is NAI or some lurker."

It doesn't add up to me. It just doesn't look like you're earnestly trying to find scum.

My initial vote on Blitzo was very clearly a joke. I didn't like Blitzo's reaction to it nor did pretty much anyone else in the game. 40 is me seeing if Blitzo has some sort of reasonable explanation for it, which he didn't give, so 103 is me making it clear that what was a joke vote is now a real one. As for not participating in the discussion at the time, I work in restaurants which means I'm not on a computer and I only have a minute here or there to phonepost when I'm working in the afternoons/evenings EST.

In 154 I'm saying that I'm torn between whether Blitzo's weirdness is NAI or scummy. So with one possibility making me null on him and the other making me SR him, in what fucking universe does that mean I should still be null on him? Because that's exactly what you're saying.

"You were trying to ramp up a wagon" is bullshit. Ramp up the wagon with literally nobody on it? There is no way that you honestly believe that I'm scum trying to lynch a townie with my case being built upon "Blitzo likes playing mafia" as the basis for the wagon. You're taking what was very clearly an RVS vote and saying "your case here is terrible" and using that as justification for SRing me? There is no fucking way that an experienced townie makes a read like yours on me.

VOTE: Shea

lol

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lets break this down:

As for not participating in the discussion at the time, I work in restaurants which means I'm not on a computer and I only have a minute here or there to phonepost when I'm working in the afternoons/evenings EST.

My point had nothing to do with activity. It had to do with something being weird and you deciding that the best course of action wasn't to prod it like others were doing to try to decide if its alignment indicative but to vote it and then just sort of just leave it out there.

In 154 I'm saying that I'm torn between whether Blitzo's weirdness is NAI or scummy. So with one possibility making me null on him and the other making me SR him, in what fucking universe does that mean I should still be null on him? Because that's exactly what you're saying.

That's not what that post says at all though? You say "player is doing X thing which is only something I would expect from newbies so I don't understand why an experienced player would do it."

You do say that "his posting style is unnatural because hes scum" but that point just doesnt make any sense. Thats just not even remotely how being uncomfortable as scum manifests itself.

"You were trying to ramp up a wagon" is bullshit. Ramp up the wagon with literally nobody on it?

My point, which perhaps I did not explain well wasn't implying that you were trying to yeet a townie (as an aside please don't use the word you used here) but rather that you were reading momentum. There had already been two pointed questions directed to that player, so you jumping on and voting seems like its trying to put pressure on in a situation where it wasnt warrented and would be safe for you to be at the front of the wagon if a wagon did develop. I didn't like your timing and I didn't like your decision to just pile on a vote instead of just waiting for the player to answer the question 2 people had already asked.

Now my greatest reason for scum reading you is that reaction you just had to being voted is heinous.

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For what its worth I still don't have a strong scum read on you. I just think its worth voting for sure.

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Ok ik this game only has 8 pages but I just reread one of my other games and I'm not feeling like reading all 8 pages bc I notice there's a ton of walls. Someone give me a quick summary and a few important posts to look at please. Literally please. I'll keep up from there myself but I'm really just having a lazy potato day today so someone help.

no read the thread.

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its 8 pages it will take you like 10-15 minutes to skim it.

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I find the description of posts in this game as walls to be kind of bizarre tbh.

There haven't been many posts that I think are that long.

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You respect shea so you want him to trust you this game? I'm confused why.

this is a really good question that I want an answer to. Generally the reason I try to get players to trust me is I'm trying to lie to them.

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I find the description of posts in this game as walls to be kind of bizarre tbh.

There haven't been many posts that I think are that long.

Shea when's the last game you played ? The new meta is all about 1 ine posts bruh

White flag in team mafia a couple of years ago.

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This last page and a half of gamma reads really earnest to me.

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Murder means to say "her reads don't match up with mine therefore they are scummy"

I don't think this is even remotely true fwiw

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Its opportunistic cuz the old wagon u were on died a long time ago. So it just looks like scum!murder looking for a new mislim target

This is just bonkers.

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UNVOTE:
VOTE: kasu

I'm more comfortable with this wagon at this point, and I'm cool with voting with bulge right now.

This is a very strange post

what do you mean by comfortable with the wagon? Do you think Kasu is scum here? And what's your read on Bulge?

I was just about to say this when I got to this point of my reread.

Blitzos jump on the Kasu wagon is fricken awful.

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His push is bad but he believes it's good

I think I agree with this actually.

:/

VOTE: unvote

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Its opportunistic cuz the old wagon u were on died a long time ago. So it just looks like scum!murder looking for a new mislim target

This is just bonkers.

I kinda misunderstood what they were talking about so what I said might not make too much sense in the context

How is what they were talking about relevant to this opinion?

This is an opinion about moving from one wagon to the other and specifically what you were intuiting their reasons to be. I don't see how it hinges on you interpreting something MC said.

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I have no idea who you are including in that group because I dont really think I would put a lot of people in that category and honestly I wish you wouldn't say mean things like that about others.

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Also given that you've done pretty close to fuckall this game idk if I would be getting preachy if I were you.

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idk but I recommend therapy its done a lot of good for me.

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Also I wish "refusing to be useful" weren't N_Ms shtick but I'm pretty sure it is though I haven't played mafia with them in forever.

Can someone who has played with them more confirm for me that this is just normal behavior for them?

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I just don't understand how blitzo can simultaneously know what OMGUS but not understand an RVS vote?

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Fixated is a strange word to use which implies that I'm somehow ignoring other things in order to talk about.

Which as an attempted critique of my play would be laughable.

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I agree with pooky. I think scum in general are actually less prone to OMGUS than town is, because I think scum in general are more strategic about their attacks. I agree with pooky's analysis that the attack is stupid but that kasu believes it is not. It feels more like town the more I re-read it.

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Fixated is a strange word to use which implies that I'm somehow ignoring other things in order to talk about.

Which as an attempted critique of my play would be laughable.

Naw homie, this whole spiel you're weaving about me being new or not knowing what I'm doing is tiresome - there are plenty of other things that you can talk about wrt to me that have nothing to do with whatever it is you're talking about, in yet here you are, posting about something that means nothing.
No more dodging the question.
Why is kasu not scum for his bad push?

Pedit - alright, if kasu is not scum, who is? What would you expect from town!kasu to solidify your read, since it seems that that is not yet the case?

are you serious right now?

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you think shea is scum for real or just posturing?

I was leaning town on him but his explanation for his SR on me is just so scummy. It hinges entirely on my RVS vote being an attempt to "ramp up a wagon" with 0 people on it and then saying that my SR on Blitzo makes no sense because I'm saying his post is NIA when I'm saying it was either NIA or scummy, so it amounts to a slight SR. I've never played with Shea before but his "read" on me just seems extremely fake which is scummy in my books

@Shea/Pooky what stands out to you as genuine and unfakeable by scum in this post or others around it

I don't think it isnt fakeable I just don't think its faked. I don't see a lot of scum motivation to react like that. And I swear to god if someone says "BUT SHE WIFOM" I will eat donkey poop, because its not because my thinking its town is definitely not a predictable reaction to making it.

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Fixated is a strange word to use which implies that I'm somehow ignoring other things in order to talk about.

Which as an attempted critique of my play would be laughable.

Naw homie, this whole spiel you're weaving about me being new or not knowing what I'm doing is tiresome - there are plenty of other things that you can talk about wrt to me that have nothing to do with whatever it is you're talking about, in yet here you are, posting about something that means nothing.
No more dodging the question.
Why is kasu not scum for his bad push?

Pedit - alright, if kasu is not scum, who is? What would you expect from town!kasu to solidify your read, since it seems that that is not yet the case?

are you serious right now?

I fail to see what part of this post isn't serious.
If there's some kind of issue that you have with what I've said, I would like to know what that is.

I don't want to get deep into this because its not super game related but I found it a little ridiculous to accuse me of dodging a question you had just asked, that I literally had answered by the time you finished making this post which you then subsequently chose to not take out of your post for...reasons?

And because I have picked on that because its weird, but I don't think its remotely reasonable to say I've focused on it or that any of the maybe 3 times I've mentioned it in different contexts are a shpiel. I've talked about it mostly in the contect of other people attacking it when I found it NAI. Honestly this whole post is absolutely bizarre. Kind of a work of art in its weirdness.

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Like its the tone of the post that confuses me more than anything "the NO MORE DODGING THE QUESTION!" implies that somehow you've been asking me a question repeatedly that I've been deliberately avoiding. It seems like its painting me as being completely unwilling to engage on your questions for a long time and I just don't think thats remotely accurate. I think I've been perhaps the most responsive and active player in this game in terms of willingness to share my opinions and answer questions.

To the point that literally I had answered your question before you finished admonishing me for not answering it, and you still chose to leave the admonishment in your post feels a lot like well poisoning to me.

[Thestatusquo]

.......how in the world is this read helpful to anyone?

It'd probably be better if you thought more about it instead of asking me to explain it to you, but I def already explained why it's helpful.

I agree with Noraa that its actively unhelpful. And "X is scum look in your heart" is a common scum tactic.

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I don't want you to narrow it down more I want your reasoning so I can evaluate them and also you.

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I just dont understand people like you and N_M. Why sign up for a game if you don't want to play?

[Thestatusquo]

Ok but why did you yell at me to stop dodging a question when I have dodged zero questions and then seeing I had answered the question you were in the middle of yelling at me for dodging, leave the part in about dodging the question?

[Thestatusquo]

Like if its not well poisoning what is it?

And while we're on the subject I haven't stopped picking at the incongruities you have because I still don't understand them.

Why do you use a term from like ten years ago (OMGUS) so naturally but say you don't want to vote in the early game suggesting you don't know about RVS? Why do you attack pooky for an RVS vote? The reason I keep picking at these things is I don't understand them and you havent even tried to explain them as far as I remember.

It just doesn't make sense and my inclination is to think that its NAI but I keep coming back to it because I don't understand it and I could be missing something here WRT alignment.

If you would adequately explain why you're not new but don't know some basic things about mafia but at the same time know what OMGUS means I would immediately drop it but you haven't and it keeps coming up.

[Thestatusquo]

I already claimed scum bro..

Also it isn't actively unhelpful. 3 scum in those 6. Probably could narrow it down more, but that'd require effort.

well it would be very helpful if you could elaborate on the association reads you made because they seem rather weird to me

pot, kettle.

[Thestatusquo]

I mean that I think your contribution to the game has been similarly sparse and unhelpful.

[Thestatusquo]

come the fuck on dude.

[Thestatusquo]

if my critique is fair then what does it matter if you don't like my specific turn of phrase. If the critique is fair how about instead pedantically arguing with me about you go about fixing it so its not fair? I don't really want to get into a back and forth with you about the exact wording of me communicating to you that I need more from you.

[Thestatusquo]

And now you've spent 2 more posts on it instead of actually discussing the game in a meaningful way.

There were 2 whole pages between

To be most clear; I think 2 of murder/outworld/duppin are scum and 1 of nora/chicken katsu/blitzo are scum

could you elaborate on this? i am mainly interested in your association reads

And this

I already claimed scum bro..

Also it isn't actively unhelpful. 3 scum in those 6. Probably could narrow it down more, but that'd require effort.

well it would be very helpful if you could elaborate on the association reads you made because they seem rather weird to me

and 6 whole pages between the first and your previous comment on the game.

Do you have nothing else to say about 8 pages of content?

[Thestatusquo]

Like I really don't like policy yeeting but y'all are making me want to come to jesus I swear to god.

[Thestatusquo]

Pooky who do you think is most likely to be scum and why

Who do you think is most likely to be town and why

[Thestatusquo]

Sorry.

Had to take one of my cats into the vet for emergency surgery yesterday morning, probably going to be ok but I spent yesterday being a mess. Trying to get my head straightened out and not be a waste of a slot. Going to be trying to reread and provide some actual content in the next 12 hours once I’ve gotten things settled at work for the day. If anyone wants my opinion on anything in particular let me know and I’ll make sure to get to it on top of whatever I find to comment on in more general terms.

I'm so sorry to heae that I hope they come out fine.

[Thestatusquo]

you think shea is scum for real or just posturing?

I was leaning town on him but his explanation for his SR on me is just so scummy. It hinges entirely on my RVS vote being an attempt to "ramp up a wagon" with 0 people on it and then saying that my SR on Blitzo makes no sense because I'm saying his post is NIA when I'm saying it was either NIA or scummy, so it amounts to a slight SR. I've never played with Shea before but his "read" on me just seems extremely fake which is scummy in my books

@Shea/Pooky what stands out to you as genuine and unfakeable by scum in this post or others around it

I don't think it isnt fakeable I just don't think its faked. I don't see a lot of scum motivation to react like that. And I swear to god if someone says "BUT SHE WIFOM" I will eat donkey poop, because its not because my thinking its town is definitely not a predictable reaction to making it.

I'm not suggesting a wifom play, but are you discounting the possibility of a genuine scum kneejerk reaction? we know kasu hasn't rolled scum before and is apparently an emotional player as town, ie when he is presumably at his most genuine. is that too easy?

I think I pretty clearly stated that there's a possibility of them faking it but that it doesn't feel faked to me.

Honestly I really don't understand this whole line of questioning. It seems like in order to respond to me saying "it could be faked I just don't think it is" with "But don't you think it COULD be fake!?" kind of requires willfulness. Yes, it could be fake. I don't think it is because to me it feels genuine.

[Thestatusquo]

Like it doesn't feel like a scum play to me. It feels there are lots of incentives for Kasu to not play that way as scum. Could he? Sure, but I don't think its likely.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm not pressing you, just trying to develop my kasu read

Honestly I don't like this post at all.

What in my post made you think that you needed to reassure me that you weren't pressing me? Why would you do that even if you thought I wanted it?

[Thestatusquo]

There's lots of interesting relational stuff going on here between bulge-kasu-blitzo and to a smaller extent murder cat that I want to look at tomorrow for sure. Bulge's relationship to kasu and blitzo in particular are really interesting with a flip of either players. Don't have a lot of fully developed thoughts on this right now but I just think that theres some amount of either deflating a wagon on a buddy or pushing a counter wagon or something going on there maybe.

[Thestatusquo]

MC has completely disappeared and I don't like that either.

[Thestatusquo]

Help with what?

[Thestatusquo]

also did you see my question in 471? asking about that post specifically, not so much your general read of him.

No and in fact its more OOG frustration than anything else. I don't think posting in the way panzer and N_M are posting is alignment indicative for them so I am deeply frustrated by it because it seems like the only way to read a slot that is actively refusing to play is to yeet them and find out which again I am against from a game theory standpoint.

[Thestatusquo]

VOTE: Blitzo

imo its kind of shady for him to ask me for my opinion multiple times but when I say he's my top SR just ignore me and post 4 times without responding to it. shade thrown.

This vote and reasoning seems super incongruous with what you said was your style of sitting back and taking notes and what not. I was expecting more reasoning than this given your claims about how you were playing the game.

[Thestatusquo]

Seems like a cop out honestly.

[Thestatusquo]

But my critique is also not limited to the length of post but rather the substance. Your claim is that you've been watching the game and looking at all the reaction and then the first time you cast a non-random vote all game its about something that feels sort of knee jerk and based on literally just a throw away thing that happened super recently? Really?

[Thestatusquo]

I just dont understand why this is voteable but like literally hundreds of other things werent for you.

[Thestatusquo]

Thats actually reasonable. MB.

[Thestatusquo]

Shea, I agree with your 472 but I'm wondering why Bulge's line of questions "don't make sense" to you but they don't seem scummy to you. Why not?

I dont think I said anything about what they say about bulges alignment.

I have been feeling more uneasy about the bulge but mostly its related to what I see as pretty persistent efforts to try to buddy up to me.

I will say I also find this post by you while you're voting me and saying things like two posts of mine can't possibly come from town to be pretty odd.

If you're so sure I'm scum why do you care about my opinion?

[Thestatusquo]

I have been feeling more uneasy about the bulge but mostly its related to what I see as pretty persistent efforts to try to buddy up to me.

This should say "I have been feeling more uneasy about the bulge but mostly its related to what I see as pretty persistent efforts to try to buddy up to me as well as the relational things I'm seeing in the group of MC-You-Bulge-Blitzo which I don't think will be solved today.

[Thestatusquo]

I don't know what you mean by not following up. i feel like I've asked all the questions I needed to ask and when I don't get the answers I keep asking questions and when I get answers that either make sense to me or whatever I stop.

Just because I'm not screaming bloody murder about someone doesn't mean I don't think they have the potential to be scum, I'm just not sure who I want to vote right now because theres a lot of moving pieces here and I'm still not sure how to fit them together.

[Thestatusquo]

FWIW I feel like theres a pretty compelling reason to vote almost anyone in the game right now, and many of them also have compelling reasons to think they're town.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm used to getting townread. I was pretty heavily townread in my last game too (white flag) where I was scum.

What's interesting to me is not the town reads themselves but I feel like theres buddying going on, especially with gamma and bulge and to a lesser extent murdercat.

This post in particular still reads sort of bizarre to me and I don't like his explanation either.

I'm not pressing you, just trying to develop my kasu read

[Thestatusquo]

i think my read on him might have been affected by him calling me out yet not pushing me, in fact it felt to me like he was trying to avoid getting in a discussion and being non confrontational. As in it felt like he was just asking relatively simple questions but not really trying to follow up on them, but after reading his iso i see thats not totally fair

I was trying to get you to play the game.

[Thestatusquo]

- Shea, I don't want to stink up the thread with this and it's more OOG, but remind me later if we're dead-threading together or in postgame to ask you about your theory on policy/liability elims, because I think we probably disagree on this point but it's the type of theoretical thing I like to talk about. However, on a more in game note, I'm curious about your relationship-based reads that you've brought up a few times re: Blitzo/MC/Kasu/Bulge. If you think there's an informative flip in that group as you said in 479 is that where you're most strongly leaning in this phase as it stands and have you considered whether or not you have a preference in that group? Because a couple of those people are on my "no D1 yeet" list right now and I don't think I'm seeing what you're seeing there in its totality.

I'm having a hard time fully expressing it but it has to do with Bulge voting kasumeat at a time when doing so seems to take significant steam out of the blitzo wagon for reasons that don't read as particularly strong or well fleshed out to me. It doesn't really square with the rest of the bulges play which has been very careful and non-confrontational for the most part. Basically my thought was something along the lines of "why are we voting here and for this." It's his only non-random vote in the game and its just pretty incongruous with the rest of his play, to the point that it feels kind of glaring to me. Why was this enough to vote on when so many things were not?

That's the part of it I have the most fleshed out in my head, and the part that feels the most concrete to me. I think if I were forced to choose right now who to yeet it would be the bulge > Blitzo > MC.

That's mainly because I think there's other things that make me want to yeet bulge besides the relational stuff, theres also the fact that I feel like their interactions with me have been downright weird and the sum totality of his play has basically been pointing out slight logical inconsistencies which looks a lot like busy work to me.

Weird interactions with me:

This last page and a half of gamma reads really earnest to me.

I agree, but be careful not to lean too hard into his flattery

What is the point of this post?

I'm not pressing you, just trying to develop my kasu read

When have I ever once stopped to reassure the person I was talking to that I wasn't pushing them? What is the town motivation to this?

The explanation doesn't make any sense to me either.

I'm not pressing you, just trying to develop my kasu read

Honestly I don't like this post at all.

What in my post made you think that you needed to reassure me that you weren't pressing me? Why would you do that even if you thought I wanted it?

looking back I read the last line of your 472 too fast and thought you were implying I was trying to trap you into answering a certain way

Like what? The last line he is referring to is "Honestly I really don't understand this whole line of questioning. It seems like in order to respond to me saying "it could be faked I just don't think it is" with "But don't you think it COULD be fake!?" kind of requires willfulness. Yes, it could be fake. I don't think it is because to me it feels genuine."

I dont see how that could be what he's suggesting he misread it as, and EVEN IF THATS TRUE--The meat of my argument is there really isn't town motivation to jump to reassure someone you're not pushing them. Why would you? I've certainly never done it as town.

The rest of his ISO besides this and the Kasu attacks are just pointing out minor logical inconsistencies and mildly rebuking people in a "not trying to find scum" sort of way.

Some examples:

{Thestatusquo}
{Panzerjager, PookyTheMagicalBear, The Bulge}
{Not_Mafia, Noraa, Kasumeat, duppin, OutWorldER, UneducatedGuesser}
{Gamma Emerald}
{Blitzo}

pedit: Was just about to post this for content but ok

what's the rush to get a list like this out?

kasumeat the archaeologist

I meant for the claim thing. Didnt even read the whole sentence rip.
All I saw was "Pooky is ascetic peacemaker Noraa so role fishing is allowed now"

i know noraa gets paranoid but hmmmm

I can't read Shea aorn. His play style is one of those that I generally struggle to read just like Pooky and Not mafia. These take me a lot of time to get opinions on but I guarantee I'll probably be having at least leans before day 1 ends unless we end up with a flash wagon which I don't recommend.

shea's posting style isn't even a little bit like pooky or n_m, and I get you're saying he's null and hard to read, but you have other null reads that I feel would be a much better comparison here. so your comparison to two players who have a fairly established deliberately cloudy playstyle is reading to me like an excuse to not have to try and get a read on him. thoughts?

Iso is riddled with stuff like this and I think I've just talked myself into a VOTE: The Bulge

[Thestatusquo]

What in the logic do you think is faulty?

[Thestatusquo]

I meant it that he doesn't seem to be too interested in picking fights or voting. He seems interested in prodding at things but I would describe his engagement as mostly at the surface level.

[Thestatusquo]

I dont love almost anything kasu has posted the last two pages.

[Thestatusquo]

Others have been scummier as of late so for now
UNVOTE: Murder

Then why...not..........vote them?

[Thestatusquo]

Others have been scummier as of late so for now
UNVOTE: Murder

Then why...not..........vote them?

Like honestly I don't understand this post on a fundamental level. If you're trying to yeet the scum and you say your reason to unvote someone is that others have been scummier why do you not vote anyone? "I want to yeet people more than you so unvote don't vote any of those people." is just nonsensical. It looks like noraa is trying to get off a vote that wasn't picking up steam and is waiting to see who does pick up steam in order to place that vote.

I might be reading too much into this but I actually think I hate it more than almost anything else thats happened in the game.

[Thestatusquo]

That's not what you said. You said others have been more scummy. Who are they? Why have they been more scummy? Why aren't you voting one of them?

[Thestatusquo]

Why didn't you answer my other questions?

[Thestatusquo]

VOTE: Noraa

[Thestatusquo]

Not mafia has to be the least fun person to play with on the entire site. :/

[Thestatusquo]

That's apropos of nothing. MC just mentioned activity so I looked and NM has 7 posts. :/ And none of them are even remotely trying to play the game.

[Thestatusquo]

Its not a "misrepresentation". It's my own interpretation with emphasis on the parts I dont like.

Except when it does not even remotely resemble the original point it is a strawman and a misrepresentation.

[Thestatusquo]

FWIW, I specifically said I don't like voting people who play like N_M because I believe that playing that was is NAI for them.

I just wish there were a site rule which prohibited them from playing in the way they do. Also its worth noting its not just that N_M is lurking, its that even in the posts they do much they go out of their way to not say anything remotely related to actually playing mafia and honestly its just really frustrating and unpleasant.

[Thestatusquo]

Who am I buddying with 716? 717 is a fair call but I didn’t address 716 towards anyone I would be attempting to buddy

My guess is that he is claiming that those two posts are intended to buddy me and the reason that I know that is that they also pinged me quite a bit too.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm also not liking pookys reaction on the last few pages.

Speaking of which I really don't like the distinction that pooky anf then later on panzer are making between dislike and SR. I feel like I use those two phrases pretty interchangeable at times and I dont get why this distinction is being made except in a disingenuous sort of way.

[Thestatusquo]

I just went back to reread that and you know what forget that whole line of discussion. Panzer is weighing in on how he himself was using the word which is not what my coffee starved brain thought was going on.

[Thestatusquo]

Shea how do feel about Panzer/Pooky being 2/3 scum?

I don't tend to think about scum hunting like this on day one. I also don't think I see any particular reason that panzer is scum rather than just being obnoxious.

[Thestatusquo]

I don't understand why anyone is calling duppins vote random or out of the blue.

[Thestatusquo]

@MCat and if you're wrong and I'm right, you're hurting town ability to catch scum. Why does the way duppin voted bother you?

I guess that is always true, I have to trust my reads though or what else do I have?

It just pinged me because I felt like it came out of nowhere with no comments on the last 300 posts and I don't remember duppin saying anything about Noraa before

I think I know why duppin only now chose to say something about Noraa. If I'm right that makes him more likely town, but I want him to say why first.
Tbh I'd also be down to compromise on someone else as long as it isn't Pooky. Just know duppin is currently lean town vs. null like he was in the read list.

you want him to say why that way u can sheep it later? cuz that sure seems to be what's happening

oh come the fuck on

[Thestatusquo]

Could be legit, but I don't think my possible reality where Noraa is a townie being pushed by scum duppin to save scum pooky is that absurd either.

Except I'm the one who started pushing noraa, and I did it before people voted pooky. If anything pooky is the counter wagon to noraa not the other way around.

[Thestatusquo]

I dont know you said you don't blame me for my scum read when it happened and then refused to answer my questions when I tried to clarify what you meant so I think that argument is kind of vacuous.

[Thestatusquo]

Like, fypov, either pooky is scum or not, and you're always town, so those are literally the only possibilities as you would see it.

is this a scum slip? idk why anyone would know my alignment besides scum

Are you joking?

Also I don't understand why people are discounting the possibility that both pooky and noraa are scum together. Like, theres plenty of other votes out there for the scum to be on and counterwagons aren't always scum led. If you look at Noraas iso and look at her interactions with pooky you'll see what I'm talking about. Mostly weird jokey interaction with very little substance whenever she mentions him in the context of the game its just to say hes null or hard to read.

This is very little weight also and not related to the previous point but I find that unless players were going after each other anyway, scum is far more likely to down talk the counter wagon than town are, because they know the alignment of the other person. Just a minor probability thing in my experience.

[Thestatusquo]

Like, fypov, either pooky is scum or not, and you're always town, so those are literally the only possibilities as you would see it.

is this a scum slip? idk why anyone would know my alignment besides scum

Are you joking?

Also I don't understand why people are discounting the possibility that both pooky and noraa are scum together. Like, theres plenty of other votes out there for the scum to be on and counterwagons aren't always scum led. If you look at Noraas iso and look at her interactions with pooky you'll see what I'm talking about. Mostly weird jokey interaction with very little substance whenever she mentions him in the context of the game its just to say hes null or hard to read.

This is very little weight also and not related to the previous point but I find that unless players were going after each other anyway, scum is far more likely to down talk the counter wagon than town are, because they know the alignment of the other person. Just a minor probability thing in my experience.

Sorry for the double post on this but I wanted to add that I don't think it would even be reasonable for noraa to miss the "fypov" because literally the last line says "as you would see it" as well.

Like claiming that someone is scum slipping when the post you're claiming is a scum slip preempts that interp in 2 different ways is some real next level misrepresentation.

[Thestatusquo]

How are you not tunneling me?

You're tunneling me so hard that you've managed to take things that have NOTHING TO DO WITH ME and twist them to fit a Pooky-Scum narrative it's downright ridiculous at this point

If I were tunneling you in an attempt to elim you I would be actively encouraging my town reads to come vote you and you can check any of my games to see that's the case.

This would be true if you were town tunneling, but would it be if you were scum? I find that kind of dubious.

[Thestatusquo]

Like part of what gives me pause about murdercat is literally exactly that, in the games I've seen him as town he's been very aggressive in trying to push through a lynch when he thought a player was scum, here he's just kind of taking pot shots and hoping people get the message.

[Thestatusquo]

my apologies for using the L word, slipped out.

[Thestatusquo]

The "I'm just putting pressure on you bro" defense holds a lot more weight when we have 10 days of deadline left, a lot less when we have 3 days and you're on the main wagon. Do you have scum reads? If yes, why aren't you trying to eliminate them? If no why not? Is pooky your number one scum read? If so why wouldn't you be trying to eliminate him? If not, why aren't you digging in other places?

If the vote is for pressure what have you seen? There's a lot of interaction pooky has done the last 5 pages and if it hasn't cemented your read I don't know what will.

Basically I'm having a hard time seeing how your behavior and stated motivation right now aligns with a town mindset of what I would be expecting town to do right now.

[Thestatusquo]

Wait how can it be simultaneously right and also from a scum perspective?

[Thestatusquo]

I'd note you're not just trying to convince pooky that pooky is wrong you should be trying to convince me pooky is wrong.

[Thestatusquo]

I agree with a lot of what Duppin says although I think its disingenuous for them to call someone out for ignoring them when their posting patterns in this game make them very ignoreable. I suspect that I too would have very little content about duppin if you checked and I think that's probably true for the vast majority of players in the game.

But I'm becoming pretty convinced of my noraa scum read and I am thinking it increasingly likely that MC is scum too.

[Thestatusquo]

Please explain to me why noraa is town.

[Thestatusquo]

How have you managed to do all of this legwork on pooky but you haven't even looked into the other wagon enough to have an opinion? Especially because you voted her at one point?

[Thestatusquo]

You're willing to express vague support for a panzer wagon but not willing to talk at all about the other main wagon and you say you haven't put any effort into it?

[Thestatusquo]

I'm becoming more and more convinced in a MC-noraa pairing and I'm beginning to think that MCs early vote on noraa that they backed off of was a distancing vote.

[Thestatusquo]

How have you managed to do all of this legwork on pooky but you haven't even looked into the other wagon enough to have an opinion? Especially because you voted her at one point?

I am rereading isos according to the playerlist order 4 at a time.

And you've done panzers already?

[Thestatusquo]

You're willing to express vague support for a panzer wagon but not willing to talk at all about the other main wagon and you say you haven't put any effort into it?

I'm happy to talk about it. If you want me to proxy my vote to you or unvote for now to make you feel more comfortable we can do that as I still think you are town. But I personally believe Pooky is more likely to be scum than Noraa based primarily on Pooky's play.

At the risk of maybe tunneling here I don't understand why a town player would ever make this offer.

[Thestatusquo]

How have you managed to do all of this legwork on pooky but you haven't even looked into the other wagon enough to have an opinion? Especially because you voted her at one point?

I am rereading isos according to the playerlist order 4 at a time.

And you've done panzers already?

Panzerjager
Panzer doesn’t have a lot of content to look through in this game, but I’m going to try my best. At the risk of sounding OMGUSy, I don’t like Panzer’s vote on me. There’s no real reason given other than e.g. “read lists are scummy” (355). Yes I realized that I was ok with the vote when it first happened, but it feels now as if the vote is being justified after the fact in a possible miselim attempt. Panzer has been very vague in the description about outworld/duppin/me and it reads to me like he is keeping his options open about where to move to in the future.

Fair enough. I just don't understand the thought process of just ignoring the main wagon, especially because one would expect it to be relevant to your read of pooky.

[Thestatusquo]

That personally point is crap and you should know it.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm not going to respond about my word choice, but I feel I have to clarify again that I do not want a him or me vote, I'm not trying to convince everyone to elim Pooky, and my comment was tongue in cheek because it feels like Shea is mostly concerned that I'm not voting Noraa.

I'm concerned that you are, as far as I can tell, not even remotely interested in discovering if Noraa is town or scum.

[Thestatusquo]

the way people behave doesn't tend to change game to game in the way you're suggesting, even as newbies. It's a progression typically, not just "ok now I'm wildly different 10 seconds later!"

I am saying this not because I've done any meta analysis of you, because I haven't, and I'm not voting you for meta reasons, but because its just a wildly bizarre defense that doesn't square with my more than a decade of experience playing mafia on the internet. People don't just play drastically different from game to game because they're new, especially without a stimulus to push them towards that.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm not voting you for guessers reasons, I'm just saying your response to them is very unpersuasive because in my experience it just don't work like that.

[Thestatusquo]

I would like uneducated guesser to be more specific about what he finds different so I can dig into it myself.

[Thestatusquo]

I agree, though I suspect what I find will be more illuminating in what I think about guesser than it will be for what I think wrt you

[Thestatusquo]

:/

[Thestatusquo]

Don't want to vote panzer, the counter wagons that keep popping up to Noraa sure are interesting though.

[Thestatusquo]

Because I think panzer has been more null than anything else. I don't see how anyone could claim that what he's done is super alignment indicative at all. I think there are players who have done actual scummy things not just be unhelpful. If we're yeeting based off of unhelpfulness I think N_M has been WAY more unhelpful than panzer.

I think panzer is a really easy target because he hasn't done much and has been unpleasant while doing it. This is now the second counter wagon which has risen up to try to save Noraa who has done actual scummy things and there's no way that this should be this hard if she were town. Almost no one is town reading her, almost everyone is saying things like "I could vote noraa" or "she's been null or scummy" and yet theres huge resistance to the wagon regardless. It feels like a classic case of a scum wagon stalling while counter wagons form on easy targets.

[Thestatusquo]

"done actual scummy things"

all everyone here can say about me is that my playstyle sucks ass. I mean how tf is that helpful? My playstyle is gonna be bs no matter what my role pm says.
How have I even done scummy things? Not putting my vote somewhere 24/7 = scum. wtf.
If I die today, I request that everyone take a good look into Shea's crappy case on me. Shea's been jumping around so much. An ISO shows how many wagons he has started and how many people he's sussed for a lot of not good reasons.
He sussed murder, he sussed pooky, he sussed blitz, he sussed kazu, he sussed me all for ???? reasons. Anyone want to convince me that there's 5 scums this round? go ahead. I'm interested in hearing that case.

You called my last response fair when I said it now its crappy. You refused to answer the remainder of my questions because you "didnt feel like it"

lol we've switched to the attacking me thing.

I have been suspicious of lots of people this game, that's uh...Indicative of town play? I vote where I feel scum might be and I change my mind. That's called a normal town thought process. You know whats not a normal town thought process? Not posting suspicions and not at all trying to figure out the game, and then attacking people when they express suspicion of you.

You know, the way you've played this game. Go ahead and vote me. Let's get this 1v1 going. Stop just flinging crap from the sidelines and put your money where your mouth is for the first time in this game.

[Thestatusquo]

No it is not towny to try to start wagons everywhere. Shea's tone sounds so town but he's pushing wagons based off of terrible reasons. I feel like its not towny behavior. It's just his playstyle is towny

This describes exactly what Murdercat has been doing for the last handful of pages much more than it describes anything that Shea is doing.

I've agreed with the SR on murder for the most part.

yeah because you're trying to distance from your buddy when you flip.

[Thestatusquo]

If you agree with the scum read on MC fuckin' vote him????

[Thestatusquo]

You've done literally nothing this game which even approaches what could be called scum hunting.

You're not even remotely trying to find who the scum are. The two most consequential things you've done is attack me and others when we say you're scummy.

I asked MC to answer the question: Explain to me why Noraa is town and MC went "I need to do a read" and then came back and didn't answer the question really. So I ask again, name like 2-3 things that noraa has done that you think come from a town mindset.

[Thestatusquo]

Meanwhile all these nonsense counter wagons keep popping up.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm saying absence of evidence is evidence of absence in this case.

[Thestatusquo]

I asked MC to answer the question: Explain to me why Noraa is town and MC went "I need to do a read" and then came back and didn't answer the question really. So I ask again, name like 2-3 things that noraa has done that you think come from a town mindset.

It's kind of unfair to ask that when I never said I had a hard town read on her. I just don't find things that you find scummy to be scummy. But ok I will look through the iso again

It's not remotely unfair to ask you to take a position on one of the major wagons in the game, especially since you've been working the whole time to find any alternative to it regardless of how slim the reasoning. It sure seems like you're PLAYING like you are hard town reading her, even if you're not.

And this is also disingenuous because I'm not asking you to make a hard town lock case for noraa. I'm asking you to find 2 or 3 things that come from a town mindset. That's not even remotely the same thing. If you're not hard scum reading her, you should be able to do this pretty easily even without having a hard town read.

[Thestatusquo]

Honestly, I'd have to do a deep dive to reread you because I think the two things have become very linked for me. There were and are independent reasons why I was scum reading you (a couple of examples being the willingness to proxy your vote, the pooky push, the lack of pushing your reads with the conviction I would expect from you as town, the shallowness of your reads re: pooky and panzer, the way you did surface level rereads of everyone but somehow didn't manage to come to any concrete conclusions, etc.)

But I'd have to go back and reevaluate all of that as well if noraa flipped town, because its unclear to me how much of it is invading my thought processes for other things. That's part of why I want noraa to go first.

I still don't love the bulge's contribution to this game as well, and I'd probably start digging there if noraa flipped green and on reread I decided you werent that scummy after all, but I don't love dealing too much in hypotheticals.

[Thestatusquo]

It's interesting that you picked something that I found particularly suspicious about noraa. The fact that she unvotes you when nothing really has changed by saying "others have been scummier" and then doesn't vote anyone or explain who those others are and what they've done seems like the exact opposite of a town mindset to me. Especially since she's now still claiming that she agrees with the SR on you without managing to vote it.

[Thestatusquo]

Blitzo's post 34 is overly defensive to what I perceive as a joke from Kazu(can I call you that?) Overall an interesting slot but they are in my null for the time being.

Murder sheeps Shea's(may I call u that?) opinions a shit ton. Zero evidence to back up reads ... in general. Also buddies shea a bit too. I'm not liking the look of it rn so I SR Murder.

Post 64 - I really like the way OutWorldER thinks. Very logic based and overall beneficial to town if town but very scary if scum. He can go into early town book for now tho. I don't agree completely with his views bc I think we don't have enough to be saying Blitzo is hard to read but the way of thinking is towny imo.

Pooky is hard to read. idk. null here as well as I understand this is their normal play style.
I still dk what BoP is soooo can I get some SE help around here in unfamiliar territory?

Gamma got into a bit of hot water but meh seems like typical gamma play here. I don't see anything funky so gammas a null for now.

Bulge putting pressure on Murder I approve of. Also Bulge gets +Noraa biased points bc they modded the first game that I won on site. Into my town book u go.

Post 121 - no pooky I won't be claiming 3p this game lmao.

Kazu's entrance are +++townpoints. reads very town imo.

Not mafia and Pooky are in the same "Noraa isn't capable of reading" category

Duppins posts are giving me such strong town pings, I'm worried he's scum. in the slight scum reads he goes.

Guesser's entrance could be townie in pointing out the absence of spam from me or scum setting me up to be limbait. Imma go with the first option for now.

Shea is .... meh null.

I don't see this read list coming from scum. It's honestly so empty it makes no sense in some places, e.g. duppin. This isn't a tstbs argument, I am saying that scum here should be pushing someone and probably at least town leaning you. But ok you want evidence of town, not not scum so I will keep reading

Wait posting fluff and fence sitting are somehow "not scum" in your book? I don't believe that.

[Thestatusquo]

I mean, even aside from the fact that the two things you just posted are a red screaming association tell, I think neither of them looks particularly townie for noraa. In fact if given them in a vacuum I'd probably guess both posts came from scum.

[Thestatusquo]

no

[Thestatusquo]

It's interesting that you picked something that I found particularly suspicious about noraa. The fact that she unvotes you when nothing really has changed by saying "others have been scummier" and then doesn't vote anyone or explain who those others are and what they've done seems like the exact opposite of a town mindset to me. Especially since she's now still claiming that she agrees with the SR on you without managing to vote it.

Remind me why not voting is suspicious? A persons not allowed to be indecisive in a game of mafia?

Being indecisive is not at all what I'm accusing you of. And its funny, because you literally attacked me for being suspicious of and voting for several different people. You know, things townies do. That's how indecisiveness manifests. Not "Other people are scummy and even though nothing has changed with this person I'm voting I'm going to unvote and vote no one." that's not indecisiveness, thats you coming off your distance vote when it seemed like the wagon might pick up steam.

[Thestatusquo]

k

[Thestatusquo]

Ur SR on me is still weak no matter how u try to justify it and I remember you saying you were gonna do some meta diving. U should do that.

I tried, you have 1000s of posts before I even start getting to completed games. I'll be happy to read games if you want to link them.

[Thestatusquo]

Can I see a town game where you played d1 from the start?

[Thestatusquo]

For the record I'm still not voting you for meta reasons. Every reason I'm voting you has occurred in this thread and you can find it if you read my posts.

[Thestatusquo]

Honestly speaking, if my presence is just making people mad for some reason you might as well just lim me off. My role isnt useful to town anyways but no I'm not scum. Im fine with flipping to give town more to work with and less to be annoyed at. Im sorry if my plays bothered people lots. I'll eat the lim if that's what town wants. Last time something like this came up, someone replaced out bc of me and I felt terrible so I'd much rather I eat the lim then end up feeling bad for making people have a terrible time.

Shea if you really think this is scum still..

I've literally seen the exact same speech from scum before...

She literally did similar things in her other scum games

I never knew that scum would go to such lengths to get a mislim on me. Ig I should be proud I was the reason for one less nk but anyways, todays lim is Noraa. What I say doesn't matter til I die so lim me today that way town can finally get Gimli tomorrow. Unless Taylor impulsively changed her target last night, the scum seriously wasted a nk to get a mislim on me. The only person that I think would do that is gimli, so town lim me today and then gimli tomorrow and we are guaranteed a town win.

im not fighting. I accept being limmed. It's alright.

Now I'm even more dubious of your claim of having meta'd her.

Also on an OOG note: I am very much enjoying this game and also everyone in it who is actually playing the game. This very much includes Noraa. N_M and panzer I am not enjoying playing with because I think the way they are playing could only charitably be referred to as that.

[Thestatusquo]

The only reason I'm mentioning it at all is because MC was trying to imply that scum noraa wouldn't do the whole "I give up I'm the lim for today I've accepted it." thing and I'm saying that is very much in your scum range, because you've literally done it before as scum

[Thestatusquo]

I recognize that the situation is different, but the move is the same.

[Thestatusquo]

i think noraas thoughts regarding the reads on her earlier were pretty town (the thing about her thinking town would be more likely to notice and call out a difference in her play and bulge being more suspicious and so on), but once again my issue is that it feels like youre not really pushing in any direction. i can perhaps understand that if you are town and you feel like everone is pushing could make it difficult for you to push something, but the thing is you did the same before you were being pushed on

This is the very core of my scum read. I do not think noraa has approached today from the mindset of trying to find scum. I don't think she's pressured people trying to find scum. I don't think she's voted trying to vote scum. I don't think she's done much at all to indicate that she even cares what anyone elses alignment is.

[Thestatusquo]

I mean panzer has made disparaging comments but also panzer is being an asshole.

[Thestatusquo]

[quote="In post 1175, Panzerjager"][/quote]
you literally multiple times tried to divide the game into "people who are good at mafia and people who are trash" and I really didn't like it. I don't want to get into a big thing about it but I think there were multiple places this game where you had a chance to be nice or say something mean and you chose the latter path. That's what I'm getting at.

You're certainly playing the game more than N_M but that is a very low bar indeed.

[Thestatusquo]

I am not using it that way. I am, as I said earlier when you said this, only using it to show that this kind of play is within your scum range.

It is not a reason that you are scum, it is a response to the argument that it makes you town.

[Thestatusquo]

I don't think its a reasonable interpretation of your play that game.

[Thestatusquo]

I think for one thing its disingenuous of you to say you didn't "solve" day 1 because your participation in day 1 was replacing in and you were only a part of that game for 4 real days. But even in then there's posts like these:

One thing that I noticed tho is that osuka changes wagons often which is a scumtell if they don't normally do that as town. plus I have a terribly biased read on rn bc my mind is still thinking he is fn(which he was in the last game we were in together) and thats messing tf up. Although I must say it kinda does seem like he is trying to pull off a confused town kinda thing. Notscience has spewed a lot of mafia theory which ig is normal of an SE but I have terrible reads on SEs sooo I'm not confident in my TR there. Everyone else I'm not having strong reads on soooo we just gonna hold off on those

Oh wait I just realized that I haven't yet commented what I think on his claim. Alright so I thought Osuka seemed a bit scummy bc of the astronaut wagon thing. It might've been a joke but it kinda got my scum radar going. Anyways as long as no one cc's, we def should not lim him. I think not sci has been really nice and all but Osuka has a fair point which is that she seems to be fishing for prs(I think I understood correctly?) If I did not, either way it does seem like she is fishing for prs telling the prs to out if their role conflicts Osuka's. Idk its just not a great idea to out a pr in general, day 1 in my opinion. Yes the scum will die but like if ur having say something like a tracker out to kill a goon, its literally 100% not a fair trade. Idk anyways I think whoever the prs r shouldn't out cuz it doesnt really benefit town to lose prs day 1. Thats just my opinion.

I personally feel like plus just has a scummy play style. I mean ... he got limmed d1 as fn in his last game. it kinda shows that his scummy behavior isn't particularly AI. Its more just a scummy play style

Yeah, post 176 is the relevant one for when I started that (me and your predecessor were the two inactive slots at the time). I've just been procrastinating the unvote while deciding what to change to. Before the swap I did at various points ask people to join me in that vote, but did not get any traction.

UNVOTE:

y tf would u ask people to join u on a wagon on an inactive asf slot?! Dude that reads real scummy if u ask me but the fact that u seem so chill saying that is making me question everything

Which is way more intent on discovering alignment and sharing reads than almost anything you've posted in this whole game.

[Thestatusquo]

Like theres tons of noraa fluff in that game which is not game relevant or not super on point with talking about the game, but there definitely is thoughts on alignment and detailed breakdowns of your though processes as well.

[Thestatusquo]

The main thing I'm seeing is tonal. In that game it seemed like gave a shit who was elim d1. This game it doesn't really feel like you give a shit.

[Thestatusquo]

I am not making a claim about whether your play was scummy that game. I am saying that you seemed interested in determining alignment, and those posts are examples of you actually engaging with reads and the game. You have not done that this game.

My argument is not based on meta, my argument is based on your actions in this game and how they have not been interested in finding the scum. You say "I don't try to find scum d1 in my other game too!" and I say fine, I'll take a look and see if I agree, and I don't. I see a major substantive difference in terms of how you are approaching this game and how you are approaching this game in terms of if I think you are trying to find scum or not.

If you really don't try to find scum as a town playstyle I'm not particularly seeing it in that game and perhaps you should consider working on that because the way I solve games is to look at motivations behind posts and weigh the probability. I don't see a ton of town motivation for not being that interested in determining alignment and a ton of scum motivation. Meta can frequently go to hell as far as I'm concerned but in this instance your meta defense doesn't make much sense to me either.

It is however not the basis for my argument. The basis for my argument is your play. In this game. In this thread. And how I would expect a townie to approach the game and how I perceive you as approaching this game.

[Thestatusquo]

I don't think I'm being an asshole or making disparaging comments. I think she has a valid playstyle, it's just one that I feel is anti-town.

Also very rude that you say I'm not playing, shea. Ur bully

you literally multiple times tried to divide the game into "people who are good at mafia and people who are trash" and I really didn't like it. I don't want to get into a big thing about it but I think there were multiple places this game where you had a chance to be nice or say something mean and you chose the latter path. That's what I'm getting at.

You're certainly playing the game more than N_M but that is a very low bar indeed.

I’ve already mentioned Panzer has essentially contributed the same amount of real contribution as NM but has more posts than NM (maybe in different words but w/e). Do you think that assertion is accurate, and do you think Panzer is scum if it is?

I don't think its accurate. N_Ms contributions literally boil down to "vote X" "I still want to vote X" "Oh someone made a joke at me? Vote Y instead!"

I think panzers contributions have a lot more meat on them than that.

And even then, as I've already stated I think that is null at best for both of them. Neither panzer or N_M is going to get to LYLO so I'm not too worried about them for day 1, especially because I don't think either of them gives us a lot of information.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm not trying to find "townieness" I'm trying to find you engaging with the game in a way that makes me think you care about alignment.

In what the fuck way am I fence sitting here?

You jumped off murder specifically because you said that "other people are scummier" so in what world am I supposed to believe that the reason you did it was because "you didn't know who to SR"

You literally said that other people had made you suspicious IN THAT POST. And then refused to tell me who they were or why when I asked.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm making absolutely zero claims about whether I would have town or scum read you that game. All I've read is pieces of your ISO to find the things that I think have simply not been present in this game, because again I AM NOT MAKING A META ARGUMENT. I am saying that you are not playing towards a town win condition IN THIS GAME.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm not trying to find "townieness" I'm trying to find you engaging with the game in a way that makes me think you care about alignment.

In what the fuck way am I fence sitting here?

You jumped off murder specifically because you said that "other people are scummier" so in what world am I supposed to believe that the reason you did it was because "you didn't know who to SR"

You literally said that other people had made you suspicious IN THAT POST. And then refused to tell me who they were or why when I asked.

I said I was fence sitty in that towngame.
"other people were scummier" = multiple people were scummier and I didn't know which one to choose.
I dont have to specify my reads especially when they weren't fully developed. Why are u pushing me to give an undeveloped, not thought out read literally like 3 days into day 1(at the time that was the amount of time basically)

I would find this defense a lot more reasonable if you hadn't literally given a half baked fluffy full game read list like literally the first time the thread was over.

I apologize about the fence sitty thing I misread what you said and thought you were calling me that.

[Thestatusquo]

And now for a summary:

TR:
Kazu
OutWorldER
Bulge
Guesser

Null:
Blitzo
Pooky
Gamma
Not mafia
Shea

SR:
Murder
Duppin

you sure seem capable of giving undeveloped reads here early in the game when theres no consequences or weight to things you're saying.

Why does this go away as soon as there's actual content to analyze?

[Thestatusquo]

Name 2 or 3 things you've done this game that you feel come from a town mindset.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm not asking for town tells. I'm asking for things you have done that are more likely to be done by a town player than a scum player in terms of intrinsic motivation.

[Thestatusquo]

Also I agree with pooky that MCs whole approach to this wagon and end of day has been terrible and I stand by my earlier statement that I'll be looking there first regardless of how noraa flips.

[Thestatusquo]

Pooky has had no real pressure all game and has not really done a lot of solving. He gets some votes and all of a sudden he is giving a lot more. Why don't you like them then? Will you give us more if we all vote you?

Yes I tend to interact with people who vote me because it's a very good way to read whether they actually believe their case on me.

Yes I agree with you. So even you like the votes. Why does panzer dislike them then? They are advancing the game

this is some of the oddest d1 wagon-pushing I have ever seen

VOTE: Pooky

Haven't really liked anything from you all game. My top TRs don't like you and a lot of my SRs do.

ok buddy good talk

This is kind of hypocritical after your last post

his iso has a lot of these kinds of posts. there's no momentum to his conversations, he waits opportunistically for something he can vaguely point out.

Do you think your own play bites into this same critique?

[Thestatusquo]

Happy noraa is just as scum as sad noraa but I'm glad you don't think we hate you anymore :<

[Thestatusquo]

I think if Murder flips red anytime during this game, it clears everyone that tunneled him day one(before this post cuz can't let scums take advantage of it).
scums bus but never day 1.

I've definitely bused as scum on d1.

[Thestatusquo]

Sorry for just kinda ghosting out of this whole conversation after a certain point. I just lost the energy to play after a while.

Anyways, looks like the choice is between MC and Pooky for D1 Elim (Noraa could maybe flashwagoned but I doubt it and I don't really want her as the D1 Elim anyways at this time)

Pooky's play was still majority defensive (and some of those defenses were really bad) after his engagement with MC but I can't really deny that he's right and MC is looking really awful.

I'm somewhat undecided, so I'll just keep my vote on Pooky until my hand is forced.

This is a really weird vote from a relational standpoint. Noraa and pooky had the same number of votes at the time and MC had one more and it just happened. So pooky being elim is one of our normal choices but noraa would be a flash wagon? That doesn't make any sense.

If Noraa flips scum ever this is a really important post to look at.

And I still want to flip her today.

[Thestatusquo]

*post not vote

[Thestatusquo]

I do not understand why you think "reading someone as scum" is tunneling. I'm happy with other flips today, especially MC, I just think you have the highest chance of being scum.

You can't just call someone thinking you're scum tunneling, that's not what that word means. Stop poisoning my well.

[Thestatusquo]

You're main point against me is my lack of solving and not looking like I'm thinking from a town mindset. There are plenty of others that have done this more than me. ur sr on me, specifically just looks really scummy. I hear ur points and they ring true as I have not solved much but if that's the standard ur judging by, I am not the scum.

Nope. This is a misrepresentation. I have several reasons why I think you're scum.

And not solving is not the point. I don't think you have done anything that indicates you're interested in discovering people's alignment. This is different from "not solving" and I don't think its true that others have done it more than you. Well, maybe not_mafia, but I've already addressed my thoughts on not_mafia multiple times. I'm not looking for you to solve the game, I'm looking for you to care at all about whether people are scum or town. I don't see any posts from you at all that suggest you do. When asked to show 2 or 3 things that would come from a town mindset of wanting to know the scum you couldn't even do it, you just pointed to things you think are "townie tells" which isn't what I was asking for.

Your AtE, your interactions with MC (reasons I think you're both scum) your negative response to the counter wagon (something I see more often from scum than town) your unvote on MC while saying others are scummy but not voting them, your fluffy read list which didn't make any sense and then a refusal to talk about reads for the rest of the game after. Your defending of lurkers (not really my point, and the point I'm most dubious because it comes from another players meta of you that I can't verify.) Your insistence that everyone who looks at you is scummy. Your calling me scummy like 3 or 4 times over the past 4 pages but then when being pressed into voting me you say "oh I think you're probably townie actually."

I could name like 5 or 6 more things. But I don't really want to. I've made my case on you over like 30 different posts and you refuse to engage with it and misrep it and call me scummy and tunneling because of it so I'm actually just not really inclined to interact with you anymore about it. But you can't claim there's not tons of components to the read.

[Thestatusquo]

You ain't gunna convince me unless you like find and lead a wagon on 2 scum probably so either do that or stop trying to interact with me about it.

[Thestatusquo]

2 reasons I prefer noraa today:

1) the constant resistance and counter wagons to noraa make me think I'm on to something here. Very few people are explicitly town reading her but yet it seems impossible to get her yeeted, to the point where people outworldER literally said she wasnt an option unless a flash wagon happened, despite the fact that she had the same amount of votes.

2) I feel like for me MCs alignment still has some dependence on Noraa's alignment whereas my opinion on noraas alignment is not influenced by MCs.

Don't get me wrong, if we get to deadline and MC needs the votes I will definitely hammer, and I'm always open to hearing thoughts about players in the game. But I don't see a real reason to give up on noraa unless you're very persuasive.

pedit: Then vote me, noraa.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm not even remotely hesitant to vote MC lol

[Thestatusquo]

lol a huge portion of my read of the game involves you/MC scum pair.

This is a bonkers attack.

[Thestatusquo]

Also Noraa here's the thing, you can push me all you want, but even if I claimed scum in the thread you would be incapable of getting me yeeted. So I look forward to that tomorrow if the two of us are still around.

[Thestatusquo]

Why would making someone slip up be bad? Townies can't slip up. They don't have any information to slip on. Was that a scum claim?

[Thestatusquo]

No it's not. Your very much fence sitty when it comes to Murder. All you do is throw shade at him while parking your vote on me.
Regardless of his flip, I would look at you tomorrow.

Guess what you can think two people are scum at the same time. I've not been remotely fence sitty. I have very consistently said they're scum. I have very consistently said part of what makes me think they're scum is their interactions with you.

I think you are more likely of the two, but I think you're both scum. A scum TEAM. If you will. Two players who are scum who are on the same team.

These attacks are getting more and more desperate.

[Thestatusquo]

that was not a scum claim wtf.

Newbtown get killed for scum slips all the time. You're an older player. Im sure u have seen it before.

Nope. You can't slip when you aren't scum. That's why they call it a scum slip.

Town can do something that looks like a scum slip but isn't, but I'm pretty confident in my ability to tell the difference.

I was joking about the scum claim thing. That attack makes about the same amount of sense as you claiming I'm fence sitting on MC lol.

[Thestatusquo]

MC stop coaching literally in the game thread.

[Thestatusquo]

In that situation neither player is cleared. I already said I would likely still be looking at murder first tomorrow anyway and I have said repeatedly I think MC is scummy independent of you as well.

None of what you're saying makes any sense.

[Thestatusquo]

MC stop coaching literally in the game thread.

Hahaha I have no where else to do it Shea

Well mafia don't have day talk in normals unless the rules state it I'm pretty sure so I believe this.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm uhhh. Just going to stop responding to noraa.

[Thestatusquo]

MC stop coaching literally in the game thread.

Hahaha I have no where else to do it Shea

Well mafia don't have day talk in normals unless the rules state it I'm pretty sure so I believe this.

Well I missed it when reading the rules, but I reread and they do have day talk.

So scratch this point.

[Thestatusquo]

Gunna claim or nah?

[Thestatusquo]

Maybe I'm just old but I think a formalized structure around when claims should happen is pretty terrible? Intent to hammer doesn't even have to be a thing imo.