Mini Normal 2232 -ENDGAME

Kazyan · Post Post #16 (isolation #0) » Tue Aug 17, 2021 5:00 pm

I'm getting flashbacks to Mini Normal 2187

VOTE: Kazyan

Kazyan · Post Post #37 (isolation #1) » Wed Aug 18, 2021 3:05 am

In post 22, Nixie wrote:Let me know what you eat for breakfast, as that will form the basis of my scumhunting.

Handful o' chocolate chips, but, like, a crappy kind with so much butyric acid that it barely tastes like chocolate. I'm just trying to make it to today's catered lunch at work.

In post 24, Nathann wrote:
In post 16, Kazyan wrote:VOTE: Kazyan
Why the self-vote?

It's an RVS gag? Weird question.

Kazyan · Post Post #46 (isolation #2) » Wed Aug 18, 2021 3:59 am

In post 42, Nathann wrote:
In post 37, Kazyan wrote:
In post 24, Nathann wrote:
In post 16, Kazyan wrote:VOTE: Kazyan
Why the self-vote?
It's an RVS gag? Weird question.
But the sacred rules of RVS say that you must vote someone else to try to read their reaction and immediately start solving the game. It's not a weird question.

Is that was RVS is supposed to do? Huh. Fair, then. I haven't noticed reactions to RVS-voting someone being important, but apparently, voting for myself can get a response too.

In post 36, GrandpaMo wrote:
In post 20, geraintm wrote:Oh....this game is going to be weird from what I've read above.

Will post more later.

This is post 20
VOTE: geraintm

This is a good point. geraintm, can you elaborate on "weird"?

Kazyan · Post Post #51 (isolation #3) » Wed Aug 18, 2021 4:19 am

I'd say that trying to outsmarting the mod isn't helpful, but I might have a skewed perspective here, since my first game in Mafia had an Innocent Child.

In post 48, Nathann wrote:
In post 46, Kazyan wrote:Is that was RVS is supposed to do? Huh. Fair, then. I haven't noticed reactions to RVS-voting someone being important, but apparently, voting for myself can get a response too.
In theory, at least. Debatable how well it accomplishes that in practice. Does the response tell you anything?

I thought it might be a little scummy to ask a probing question over something that clearly doesn't matter, but then I realized that a "peck" at someone hasn't historically come from scum in my games--Lunar Martian in Mini Normal 2187, or T3's initial questions in Not Quite Normal Multiball. And then you gave a reasonable answer, so now I'm not getting any scum vibes from you.

In post 49, geraintm wrote:whats the good point?

weird - because i have never seen a game with day 1 mod confirmed townie before

A vague "this is weird" suggests that you have more information about the gamestate with which to evaluate it. To me, having an Innocent Child isn't enough to consider this a bizarro world game, but given that your experience is different, your comment makes more sense.

Kazyan · Post Post #64 (isolation #4) » Wed Aug 18, 2021 5:27 am

In post 58, Jolyne wrote:I hardclaim IC

Fake and sus

Kazyan · Post Post #70 (isolation #5) » Wed Aug 18, 2021 5:43 am

In post 67, ssbm_Kyouko wrote:If that's the case I'd hazard a guess that "our mob" was not a typo but was in fact a traitor crumb and geraintm voting me is chainsawing for Margot

I'd wait for more data before making so many hard extrapolations, but this is worth being a working hypothesis.

Kazyan · Post Post #92 (isolation #6) » Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:27 am

I like that we have things to talk about already besides the IC, though I'm still kinda in the phase where I only know anything about Jolyne's role and my role. So, I'm going to watch and reread for a while in order to differentiate people in my mind.

Kazyan · Post Post #101 (isolation #7) » Wed Aug 18, 2021 12:30 pm

In post 99, geraintm wrote:As my last game has just finished, my "weird" comment about day zero IC might make more sense. I was a day 3 IC in it, so to see one in this game that flipped straight away I found odd

Definitely more reasonable in that context, then.

Kazyan · Post Post #114 (isolation #8) » Wed Aug 18, 2021 5:26 pm

In post 112, Jolyne wrote:My info is:

There are only 2 mafia.

There is no daytalk1

That second bit is right there in the game rules, so...

Kazyan · Post Post #117 (isolation #9) » Wed Aug 18, 2021 5:32 pm

If we're going to have to actually hunt scum instead of relying on a cop/tracker/whatever to tell us who the bad guys are, I am worried.

Kazyan · Post Post #147 (isolation #10) » Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:14 am

I'm just gonna park my vote here: VOTE: AliceK

Readslist coming soon.

Kazyan · Post Post #149 (isolation #11) » Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:38 am

Confirmed Town

:
Jolyne (duh)

Townread

:
ssbm_Kyouko (actual attempts to solve the game without trying to cover her butt. Town wants to be right; this is what Kyo is doing)

Townlean

:
Nixie (trying to guide the conversation somewhere useful instead of letting a not-very-talkative town waste their time)
Nathann (gut read--his actions aren't obviously town, but I get a vibe)
geraintm (I think this guy is just a goober, not flailing scum.)

Null

:
Ythan (Coming out with a scumread does seem Ythan!town-y. Could also be trying to Rush Posting as scum, since that's what we all learned from NQN)

"Pls post" Pile

:
Andresvmb
DGB
MargotRose

Scumlean

:
Alice (stilted, fake-seeming communication style)
GrandpaMo (gut read; don't take this too seriously because I'm garbage at scumhunting)

Scumread

:
Dwlee99 (There's a lot of gags and a few opinions in Dwlee's ISO, but zero solvy energy, despite apparently having a strong townread. Picking on Ythan feels opportunistic.)

Kazyan · Post Post #155 (isolation #12) » Thu Aug 19, 2021 3:54 am

In post 151, Nathann wrote:Okay, I will ask the obvious question: why are you voting for Alice when you have a stronger scumread in Dwlee?

Because I did not think to follow up with a vote switch when I was fixed on finishing the promised task: sort every player. VOTE: Dwlee99

In post 150, geraintm wrote:i take it goober isn't complimentary?
im fine with that. i just said in my post mortum to my last game every single one of my day 1 scum pings were wrong.

It's unflattering, yeah. Basically, I mean that you're not fitting the mold of a generic Mafiascum.net player, mostly be presenting your thoughts in a way that most don't. I don't want to interpret mere nonconformism as scummy.

Kazyan · Post Post #165 (isolation #13) » Thu Aug 19, 2021 9:02 am

In post 159, Ythan wrote: Twelve years I've been on this site. 2021 games are not a learning experience for me.

In post 161, Ythan wrote: Shrug shrug shrug

In post 162, Ythan wrote: By the way where do you think I got this title hmmm.

Lolwhat? Apologies for snubbing your experience level, though.

Thinking about recent interactions, though, I'm pretty sure the scumteam can't be Dwlee+Ythan, actually, since I have a hard time seeing this whole conversation as distancing. So if Dwlee were to flip red, I'd give Ythan a huge pile of towncred, or vice versa, but that's thinking so far ahead that it's not super helpful.

Kazyan · Post Post #168 (isolation #14) » Thu Aug 19, 2021 9:21 am

Nah I didn't get a "bragging" impression; I just didn't know what you were trying to say

Kazyan · Post Post #174 (isolation #15) » Thu Aug 19, 2021 11:52 am

In post 170, Nathann wrote:
In post 165, Kazyan wrote:Thinking about recent interactions, though, I'm pretty sure the scumteam can't be Dwlee+Ythan, actually, since I have a hard time seeing this whole conversation as distancing. So if Dwlee were to flip red, I'd give Ythan a huge pile of towncred, or vice versa, but that's thinking so far ahead that it's not super helpful.
Do you have really low expectations for Scum's ability to do theatre? Their conversation seemed like boring meta blabber to me. Why does it give you the impression that it's difficult to fake, more than anything else we've seen in the game so far?

I mean, I had one game where 2ndchosen1 and unwind put on Oscar-worthy scum performance that secured them the game, but in every game since then, I've never been able to pick out scum theater that mattered. So I don't actually know. I just saw post 145 and thought "is this really how you pick on your scum partner? No, probably not..." but if it's actually consistent with 'typical' scum theater, then that's more interesting. (Except that I can't solve the game on Day 1.)

Kazyan · Post Post #198 (isolation #16) » Thu Aug 19, 2021 1:41 pm

The more I think about Dwlee and read reactions to them, the more confused I get

I'm weirded out by Dwlee making observations that I agree with, but they're still not towning in my eyes, and I don't know what to think about Kyo being in the crossfire of this. Kyo looks town to me even if I think she's extrapolating too far off of so little data, so, like. It is scummy to acknowledge the townie? To argue? I'm sure Dwlee would have had

something

to say about the content instead of 'yup that's town' if the scumteam was Alice/Dwlee, so, that's probably not the scumteam?

Kazyan · Post Post #202 (isolation #17) » Thu Aug 19, 2021 1:49 pm

In post 198, Kazyan wrote:The more I think about Dwlee and read reactions to them, the more confused I get

I'm weirded out by Dwlee making observations that I agree with, but they're still not towning in my eyes, and I don't know what to think about Kyo being in the crossfire of this. Kyo looks town to me even if I think she's extrapolating too far off of so little data, so, like. It is scummy to acknowledge the townie? To argue? I'm sure Dwlee would have had
something
to say about the content instead of 'yup that's town' if the scumteam was Alice/Dwlee, so, that's probably not the scumteam?

Seriously, if anyone is missing a take on Dwlee/Kyo/Alice right now, please provide it so we can sort this.

Kazyan · Post Post #206 (isolation #18) » Thu Aug 19, 2021 1:52 pm

In post 200, ssbm_Kyouko wrote:Who all is in a neighborhood?

There's no daychat, so I'm not sure Neighborhoods can even exist, unless there's some kinda Night Neighbor role.

Kazyan · Post Post #233 (isolation #19) » Thu Aug 19, 2021 3:25 pm

"Fake and sus" was a joke, yes.

Kazyan · Post Post #234 (isolation #20) » Thu Aug 19, 2021 3:31 pm

I probably should have kept my mouth shut so that we can continue to have productive conversation instead of arguing about gags again, but, honesty.

Kazyan · Post Post #257 (isolation #21) » Fri Aug 20, 2021 7:48 am

In post 243, Nathann wrote:I'm not saying I think they're Scum together, I was just pointing out that the interaction didn't seem like anything too difficult to fake.

Kazyan, I noticed that you were focusing a lot on potential team reads (202, 198, 165). Is this something that you usually do? Oh, regarding your Dwlee read, what gave you the feeling of opportunism regarding their interaction with Ythan?

I don't usually do that, and in fact, I'm usually pretty thumbs-down about pre-flip associatives. However, I'm used to there being 40 pages by this point instead of 11, so it's easier for me make weak statements about pairings rather than strong statements about individuals.

I don't remember exactly why it was 'opportunistic' to me--I think it was just an addendum to my main point about the 0% gamesolve power--but I just didn't like the "Ythan is actually posting? sus!" sentiment. This is a pretty quiet dame, so poo-poohing someone who looks like they're about to generate a lot of content seems really counter to town's win condition.

Still, Dwlee is currently one of those cases where the evidence seems to point to scum, so that's where I should vote...but for whatever reason, my heart isn't in it.

In post 247, AliceK wrote:Kazyan progression is quite random which I think comes from Town. Geraintm also gives good vibes. I will keep my vote where it is.

People have already asked Alice to 'elaborate' here, but I'm instead going to point out that these are some pretty limp takes.

VOTE: DGB, by the way, for lurking. Live by the shadow realm, die by the shadow realm.

I also want to talk about Nixie for a second:

In post 107, Nixie wrote:Alice, dwlee, geraintm are the three scum. We can pack it up.

I like the things you're saying, but the way you're saying them doesn't lock you in as town yet. Now that we know there are only two scum, which of these three do you think is the townie? Or does the calculus change entirely?

Kazyan · Post Post #268 (isolation #22) » Fri Aug 20, 2021 11:49 am

In post 264, Jolyne wrote:So anyways - people should never be cleared for assuming 3 scum at the start of game before I outted it - Last time we had a funny setup like this with info like this, the scum were also informed of a town player having the info. I assume the same is present here. However - those that mistakenly thought my info was referring to traitors being possible are pretty much townslipped. That's why this setup is so troll because stuff like this gives town free clears out of the social aspect of assumptions being inherently different from scum to town.

I'm not sure if it's even necessary that scum knew that you had the info. It seems like an obvious fake-assumption to make that this game has the default number of scum.

Kazyan · Post Post #304 (isolation #23) » Fri Aug 20, 2021 3:00 pm

In post 289, DrippingGoofball wrote:Nixie is town.

In post 290, DrippingGoofball wrote:I like Nathann for town.

In post 293, DrippingGoofball wrote:Andres is scum.

In post 295, DrippingGoofball wrote:I'm not getting geraintm town vibes, but it's early in the game and I have faith I'll be able to read that slot eventually.

In post 299, DrippingGoofball wrote:Enchant is scum.

In post 302, DrippingGoofball wrote:I just iso'd AliceK, that was quick, I say LAWK TOWN

There is literally one (1) thought here. DGB is straight-up rolling dice to determine its reads.

Kazyan · Post Post #308 (isolation #24) » Fri Aug 20, 2021 3:56 pm

Wait, really? Okay, carry on, then.

Kazyan · Post Post #310 (isolation #25) » Fri Aug 20, 2021 3:58 pm

Breaking news: late 2020 mafia babby literally cannot interpret the vibes of oldbies; more at 11

Kazyan · Post Post #344 (isolation #26) » Fri Aug 20, 2021 4:25 pm

Is there any towncase on DGB or is this just flailing scum

Also yes I am the late 2020 mafia babby, it's me

Kazyan · Post Post #376 (isolation #27) » Fri Aug 20, 2021 4:43 pm

What is "WIM"? I've googled it, checked the wiki, read posts using it for context clues, and I still can't figure it out.

I'll sheep Ythan and Jolyne here, since I trust their experience with DGB more than mine. UNVOTE: DGB

Kazyan · Post Post #382 (isolation #28) » Fri Aug 20, 2021 4:54 pm

Wait shit who's the other person saying DBG is just being DGB again? I'm confused

Kazyan · Post Post #386 (isolation #29) » Fri Aug 20, 2021 5:03 pm

Yes, besides you. I thought there was one other person, but reading back over, I definitely just saw Jolyne talking about null/NAI stuff and thought "Jolyene does not think DGB is scum" without consulting my colony of brain worms to see if they remember what people were saying 15 minutes ago.

Kazyan · Post Post #478 (isolation #30) » Sat Aug 21, 2021 3:47 am

In post 437, Nathann wrote:Enchant, when can we expect something from you?

Kazyan, is there anyone your heart does want to vote?

DGB or GrandpaMo. Whenever someone plays the "I'm not bothering to read the game but I still have strong opinions" game, that irks me on a personal level. They're either scum or actively detrimental to a town, and either way, need to get ejected.

I see we're starting to consolidate. VOTE: GrandpaMo

Kazyan · Post Post #479 (isolation #31) » Sat Aug 21, 2021 3:51 am

Actually, posts 408 and 416 look like DGB is actually reading now, so that puts me more at ease there.

Kazyan · Post Post #487 (isolation #32) » Sat Aug 21, 2021 6:16 am

Enchant, gib reads. Do you have an opinion on any of the following people: GrandpaMo, Nixie, and/or Andre?

Kazyan · Post Post #496 (isolation #33) » Sat Aug 21, 2021 6:31 am

In post 490, Enchant wrote:
In post 487, Kazyan wrote:Enchant, gib reads. Do you have an opinion on any of the following people: GrandpaMo, Nixie, and/or Andre?
GrandPa idk, he just looked on post where i was voted and like "Wait wot". Perhaps confused townie, because mafia would simple say "Ye Enchant indeed maf go" and so on.
Nixie who the hell is it
Andre confscum, i am not gonna change vote ty.

Aight, town, what do we think about these responses? I asked about random-ass people to throw Enchant off-script, but the Nixie read seems genuine; if scum were just playing it cool and trying to give real responses, they wouldn't verbally shrug like that.

Kazyan · Post Post #525 (isolation #34) » Sat Aug 21, 2021 8:11 am

Confirmed Town

:
Jolyne (duh)

Townread

:
ssbm_Kyouko (Read has not changed: actual attempts to solve the game without trying to cover her butt. Town wants to be right; this is what Kyo is doing)
Andresvmb (actively trying to figure out how this game works)
Nathann (This kind of soft-tunnel on me comes from town, in my experience. If this is scum, it's very patient scum, asking so many probing questions but constantly sitting on a weak scumlean for me.)

Townlean

:
geraintm (Read has not changed: I think this guy is just a goober, not flailing scum.)
Ythan (gut read tbh)

Null/Lurky

:
Enchant (+town points for that Nixie reaction, but still content-light)
Nixie (tried to guide the conversation somewhere useful instead of letting a not-very-talkative town waste their time, but then vanished)

Scumlean

:
Dwlee99 (Dwlee makes a lot of sense, but in an agenda-y way, but Jolyne says town??)
Alice (my read has not changed: stilted, fake-seeming communication style)

Delet this

:
DGB (full of contradictions)
GrandpaMo (badposting)

---

There are obviously problems in this list, because there are only two scum, but that's what I've got.

Kazyan · Post Post #540 (isolation #35) » Sat Aug 21, 2021 9:53 am

I'll ISO you, GMo, to see if that stuff is true.

Kazyan · Post Post #543 (isolation #36) » Sat Aug 21, 2021 10:03 am

In post 542, GrandpaMo wrote:You will look at my iso and realize the shitpush you just made lol.

In post 541, GrandpaMo wrote:Please feel free to do so, you sheep.

If you're just going to set me up for a double bind, then I won't bother.

Kazyan · Post Post #544 (isolation #37) » Sat Aug 21, 2021 10:07 am

Anyway, I'm willing to yeet within {GMo, DGB, Dwlee, Alice, Enchant} today. The wagons and pushes are pretty disparate right now, so we should figure out who we actually want to send packing.

Kazyan · Post Post #547 (isolation #38) » Sat Aug 21, 2021 10:19 am

Look, I'm sorry for sheeping, but for most of the game, every time I've posted an original thought, someone with like 14 years of Mafia experience has told me that the person I'm scumreading is just Like That and that they have a rock-solid track record to reading that exact person. If you want me to go back to saying wrong things instead of following the people who matter in the game, I'll do that.

Kazyan · Post Post #552 (isolation #39) » Sat Aug 21, 2021 10:56 am

ISO review of GMo:

35: Just saying he's here
36: Votes Geraintm for a "confused" tone
79: Was going to RVS vote. Elorates a bunch. Is this the 'liar spewing entire alibi' tell?
90: joak
91: nothing
107: says Nixie is townslipping. Scum probably lets Nixie's comment slide? +town
116: setup speculation, +town
311: Asks for summaries
312: tooting own horn; trying to push the conversation back to geraintm. This is _town, unless the scumteam is GMo/{DGB, Enchant's slot, Dwlee}, in which it would make sense for GMo to try to push the conversation away from a scumbuddy

313

: Weird post. Looks like a town perspective slip, but it's worded in a way that feels rehearsed...but this is post 3 in a hyperpost chain, so it's almost definitely off-the-cuff.
314: Altslip commentary
315: Hellos
316: asking for scumcase on DGB from Jolyne?
317: Thinks someone is town; my eyes glazed over here so I don't think I'm seeing the implications properly.
Blah blah blah more hyperposting, but most of it doesn't matter. 323 shows some concern about resolving differences of perspective, which is interesting, but I think it's NAI

369

: Very reasonable explanation of a read that looks like it's not surface-level

Continues basically confusion up to post 537, and that's more or less where we are now.

Now that I'm not just grumping about fluffy posts, there doesn't appear to be anything scummy in this ISO. UNVOTE: GrandpaMo

Kazyan · Post Post #556 (isolation #40) » Sat Aug 21, 2021 11:41 am

In post 555, Andresvmb wrote:
In post 552, Kazyan wrote:Now that I'm not just grumping about fluffy posts, there doesn't appear to be anything scummy in this ISO. UNVOTE: GrandpaMo
I don’t understand why you’re backing away from a fight so easily.

And

there's

the double bind I predicted, kicking in right on schedule. Fantastic.

Kazyan · Post Post #557 (isolation #41) » Sat Aug 21, 2021 11:47 am

Andre is over here arguing with people for not deferring to Jolyene, and GMo is arguing with me for the opposite. You two, work that out with each other.

Kazyan · Post Post #561 (isolation #42) » Sat Aug 21, 2021 11:53 am

In post 558, Andresvmb wrote:But your reaction sticks out in that you have seemed not to really believe in any one push you’re making.

Well, yeah. I've never once been able to catch scum without a truth wizard holding my hand, and am surrounded by people who keep pushing back against my reads with greater experience and evidence. To present my observations as anything more than "something to consider" would be arrogance, not good play.

Kazyan · Post Post #566 (isolation #43) » Sat Aug 21, 2021 12:09 pm

In post 559, Nathann wrote:Now, onto Part 2... What the hell is Kazyan doing.

Kazyan's mentions of GrandpaMo, prior to this little spat, are: 46 (having a good point), 149 (gut scumlean), 478 (willing to yeet, no explanation), 525 (badposting). A pretty much consistent scumread, never any elaborate explanation given for it.

Looking at their ISO of GrandpaMo (552) - Why is giving a simple read on Nixie Townie? (Yes, I know you wrote a comment how Scum probably lets a comment like that slide, so I guess my question then is, do you expect scum to be doing nothing? Or, what's the line between something Scum would or wouldn't let slide? There's probably no correct answer to this, but I wanna see some sorta thought process here.) Why is setup speculation Townie?

Regarding you Townreading his 369, could you give me your opinion on the second paragraph of my 436?

And, probably the question I care about the most - why were you consistently Scumreading GrandpaMo in the first place? I don't care if you changed your mind in the meantime or whatnot, because this shift feels extremely weird. Maybe I'm biased in thinking that GrandpaMo isn't Townie, I could be. But I don't know if I find your current thought process regarding him to make any sense whatsoever.

Why were you consistently Scumreading GrandpaMo in the first place?

Fluffy posts. Short, snippy, "active lurking" without any particularly hot takes. Those are the kinds of things that make an impression on me when I'm not really paying attention.

Why is giving a simple read on Nixie Townie?

Town is looking for townslips and signal boosting them would be good. Declining to comment on something is really convenient because your silence doesn't show up in your ISO.

Do you expect scum to be doing nothing? Or, what's the line between something Scum would or wouldn't let slide?

This just felt incorrect for scum to do. If scum is compentent, they can fake this kind of thing, but if they're competent/WIFOMy, I'm not catching them anyway--so it's more helpful not to engage in WIFOM.

Why is setup speculation Townie?

I dunno; it just felt right for town to latch onto the new info and ascertain more about the scum that they're looking for.

Could you give me your opinion on the second paragraph of my 436?

I think it's circular, in describing the post as "confusing". You say the following: "

ecause the post was confusing and only Town would react with confusion on a confusing post is... No." This assumes that the confusingness of the post in question is self-evident, but GMo wouldn't think his own post was like that, because he's the one who made it and he understands his own thoughts.

Kazyan · Post Post #568 (isolation #44) » Sat Aug 21, 2021 12:17 pm

In post 565, Andresvmb wrote:And it’s not like this takes tremendous skill either. That’s just blatant fluff. If you don’t know how to present a point of view without giving yourself up as Scum, you often see stuff like that. Now, I’m not saying this is bulletproof or anything - I’ll keep reading. But I don’t like that you just backtracked on your read *after* having read that, and just failed to properly account for it.

And even if you’re wrong or don’t have a whole lot of confidence in your reads, putting them out there and your thought process is helpful. If only in that people can point out where you’re going wrong and you can have a genuine conversation.

I didn't expect any content in the early ISO, because it was so early in the game, and not-quite-RVS posting could have come from anyone. We were early enough in the game that people like Pooky, unwnd, et al. are still passing out "HI *GLOMPS U*" kind of posts in other games, so I didn't think anything of it. My bad.

Kazyan · Post Post #576 (isolation #45) » Sat Aug 21, 2021 12:29 pm

In post 569, Nathann wrote: So, if you're not paying attention, those posts make you scumread a person, but when you reread, you found them NAI, did I get that right? Why do you no longer find it Scummy then?

And I'm not sure if you got what I'm saying here. Or maybe I don't get your reply. I know GrandpaMo wouldn't think of his own post like that. However, my issue is that he uses someone else's confusion at his post to Townread them. Ythan's reaction was basically "wtf", and GrandpaMo declared that reaction as Townie because "only town would react in a way where they thought the way i said was weird." I get the feeling there's something off about thinking that only Town would react with confusion at a confusing post.

Yes, you got that right. As for why...I mean, I'm getting convinced by Andre that I had wrong expectations for the appropriate amount of fluffposting, there. I open up the ISO and think "early game starts here", but when I'm in the moment of viewing posts as they trickle into the game, I start thinking "no longer early game" after a few days. So there's that disconnect.

It's not

only

town that would react with confusion to a confusing post, but scum tries to act like they know what's going on and have Real Opinions, so expression confusion seems like something they're disinclined to do, probably. In my first game, I got a lot of "what even is this post?" kind of reactions to when I was learning the ropes of how to communicate townily, and they all came from town IIRC. I have a 2020 join date, though, so I don't actually know what the site meta is about this reaction.

Kazyan · Post Post #647 (isolation #46) » Sun Aug 22, 2021 7:47 am

In post 646, Ythan wrote:Y'all are both gonna be sad when Gramps isn't here to soak up votes.

There is a lot to unpack in this one line. Can you unpack it?

Also, should we consolidate wagons?

Kazyan · Post Post #663 (isolation #47) » Sun Aug 22, 2021 9:26 am

In post 649, Ythan wrote:As to your only question the only wagon with two votes besides Gramps happens to be those exact two players. On Andres who is posting mad content.

To actually answer you though obviously yes.

In post 651, Ythan wrote:
In post 647, Kazyan wrote:Also, should we consolidate wagons?
On second thought this is actually a weird question.

I mean, we have a lot of players who have gone practically silent, so we kinda need a huge majority of active players cooperate to avoid a no-lim today, not just n/2 + 1. VOTE: GrandpaMo. Andre, if you're scum, you're really good at providing scumcases on people.

Kyo, if you're out there, please hammer.

Kazyan · Post Post #664 (isolation #48) » Sun Aug 22, 2021 9:28 am

@geraintm

: Why are you still sitting on No Elimination?

Kazyan · Post Post #665 (isolation #49) » Sun Aug 22, 2021 9:33 am

I do not love this gamestate. Nixie, AliceK, and gerantim (to a lesser extent) are off in space, and Enchant is one step above active-lurking. The game is going to be unwinnable if that persists; I actually think I want to yeet a lurker today instead of GMo, if there's enough political will left in the town. Does that sound agreeable?

Kazyan · Post Post #669 (isolation #50) » Sun Aug 22, 2021 9:38 am

Lemme start that wagon, then. VOTE: Enchant

Kazyan · Post Post #684 (isolation #51) » Sun Aug 22, 2021 12:22 pm

In post 679, Ythan wrote:
In post 92, Kazyan wrote:I like that we have things to talk about already besides the IC, though I'm still kinda in the phase where I only know anything about Jolyne's role and my role. So, I'm going to watch and reread for a while in order to differentiate people in my mind.
This feels to me like not purely fluff but a subtle suggestion that you are uninformed town. And other than that it is fluff which makes it stand out.

There is a specific purpose to that post. ♬~

Kazyan · Post Post #688 (isolation #52) » Sun Aug 22, 2021 12:27 pm

In post 685, Enchant wrote:
In post 683, Ythan wrote:Look for scum or I'll hang you later.
I catched more scums than you already.

I'm still learning all of these Mafia acronyms; what is "NoU" short for?

Kazyan · Post Post #702 (isolation #53) » Sun Aug 22, 2021 1:27 pm

Enchant's play:

1) OMGUSing people who scumread them
2) Getting indignant at any suggestion that 1) is not sufficient

This slot has to go.

Kazyan · Post Post #740 (isolation #54) » Sun Aug 22, 2021 5:45 pm

Hold onto your seats; I'm making a grid

Kazyan · Post Post #741 (isolation #55) » Sun Aug 22, 2021 6:20 pm

(If you're red-green colorblind, I'll provide a different version)

Green is a townread, pink and red are weak/strong sumreads, white is null, and Jolyne gets a special conftown green. All of the blank gray spaces are where I couldn't find an opinion. Alice and Nixie get question marks because Nixie is being replaced and Alice is not very present. GMo has his gamesolve filled in. Also, a lot of these reads are super out-of-date and should be updated in the context of GMo's gamesolve post.

Kazyan · Post Post #742 (isolation #56) » Sun Aug 22, 2021 6:23 pm

I had 133 squares to fill (excluding my own reads, Jolyne, and the diagonal), so I probably got some of them wrong; please clarify if some are messed up.

Kazyan · Post Post #746 (isolation #57) » Sun Aug 22, 2021 6:35 pm

I think your top scumread is DGB.

Kazyan · Post Post #912 (isolation #58) » Mon Aug 23, 2021 7:44 am

I would have thought that town!Titus would call GrandpaMo out for gaslighting.

Kazyan · Post Post #935 (isolation #59) » Mon Aug 23, 2021 7:58 am

Scum could have seen the play as GMo and DGB actually being townie neighbors and backing Titus into a corner. scum!Titus couldn't have fired back on GMo for risk of GMo actually getting voted out, and if he flipped as an actual Neighbor, that would have made Titus the automatic elimonation on day 2. But, then, town!Titus would have GMo and DGB either being weird or throwing the match as a scumteam, which would surely elicit...something. Idk

Kazyan · Post Post #983 (isolation #60) » Mon Aug 23, 2021 8:36 am

I guess GMo gets some town points here because 2/11 of his possible scum partners--Andre and Titus--have essentially been ruled out?

Kazyan · Post Post #988 (isolation #61) » Mon Aug 23, 2021 8:38 am

Which pop-in do you guys not like? The grid, or my take on the GMo/Titus spat?

Kazyan · Post Post #1002 (isolation #62) » Mon Aug 23, 2021 9:00 am

In post 996, Nathann wrote:@Andres @GrandpaMo, yes, this is the post that pinged me wrong. Right after there was a pretty big event happening, someone jumps in with this? I think it's obvious why this analysis isn't particularly likely to have actually taken place (why would two Town Neighbours deliberately lie and back Titus into a corner?), and the fact that it has basically no actual conclusions in it? Gives me a vibe of Scum trying to hold up thread presence rather than of Town actually thinking through what is happening.

Why would two Town Neighbours deliberately lie and back Titus into a corner?

It doesn't matter. If you're scum!Titus, you're seeing two people claiming to be Town Neighbors doing just that. We know

now

that GMo was just pulling some gambit, but Titus couldn't have known that while the gambit was taking place.

Kazyan · Post Post #1005 (isolation #63) » Mon Aug 23, 2021 9:07 am

I was trying to conclude that there was only one reaction that scum could have taken without getting themselves killed in the resolution of that claim, and Titus had that reaction, ergo +scum. But then I tries to look at it from a towncase, and realized it was also a very likely reaction for town.

Kazyan · Post Post #1009 (isolation #64) » Mon Aug 23, 2021 9:28 am

"Conclusions" is a strong word for the impressions I get of players. I'm not really a fan of Andre anymore and I think Enchant is poorly faking a derptell by pretending not to know that there are only 2 scum, but no slam-dunk cases on peoplw.

Kazyan · Post Post #1010 (isolation #65) » Mon Aug 23, 2021 9:35 am

To the obvious followup question: I think it's a fake dumbtell because "2 scum" has been a lifeblood flowing through discussion in this whole thread. I'm not saying that a replacement

can't

miss it, but it's more likely than chance to be an attempt to look uninformed rather than actually being uninformed.

Kazyan · Mon Aug 23, 2021 10:01 am

If we're doing this, I'll claim at E-1 without waiting for an 'intent to hammer' post.

Kazyan · Mon Aug 23, 2021 10:44 am

Dwlee, explain your unvote. (Nathann doesn't have to; he's town.)

Kazyan · Mon Aug 23, 2021 11:04 am

Oh, I thought your vote was on me instead of GMo. I was kind of staring at my screen like "I say one halfway-reasonable thing and my wagon immediately drops from 4 votes to 2? What?"

Kazyan · Mon Aug 23, 2021 11:32 am

I do not understand this reference.

Kazyan · Post Post #1088 (isolation #70) » Mon Aug 23, 2021 4:09 pm

VOTE: AliceK

Can we wagon Dwlee instead or is that not gonna be possible with 20 hours left

Kazyan · Post Post #1142 (isolation #71) » Tue Aug 24, 2021 5:32 am

oml we've gotta eliminate someone. Neither Nathan nor geraintm want to vote Alice, so can we VOTE: Dwlee?

Kazyan · Post Post #1146 (isolation #72) » Tue Aug 24, 2021 5:36 am

VOTE: AliceK

Kazyan · Post Post #1165 (isolation #73) » Tue Aug 24, 2021 6:54 am

We have 5 hours left, Dwlee. Pick a leading wagon.

Kazyan · Post Post #1187 (isolation #74) » Tue Aug 24, 2021 8:03 am

Early reads on Day 1 are uncertain. Shocker.

Kazyan · Post Post #1190 (isolation #75) » Tue Aug 24, 2021 8:05 am

Yeah, with Alice and geraintm being the only ones off of the leading two wagons, we're at an impasse. Anyone feel like switching?

Kazyan · Post Post #1194 (isolation #76) » Tue Aug 24, 2021 8:10 am

In post 1193, Titus wrote:
In post 1190, Kazyan wrote:Yeah, with Alice and geraintm being the only ones off of the leading two wagons, we're at an impasse. Anyone feel like switching?
Until I catch up, consider me on the largest wagon.

Subtracting your vote (currently on Alice), the wagons on me and Alice are tied at 5/7 each.

Kazyan · Post Post #1202 (isolation #77) » Tue Aug 24, 2021 8:28 am

It is! I'm an inconsistent player.

Kazyan · Post Post #1203 (isolation #78) » Tue Aug 24, 2021 8:30 am

Kagekuri Addicts made a similar kind of post about me on Day 1 of not Quite Normal mafia, as well, and we were both town in that game.

Kazyan · Post Post #1207 (isolation #79) » Tue Aug 24, 2021 8:41 am

It's pretty rational, yeah. I have a lot of bad habits as town. If we meet in another game, you should probably be more worried if I end up broadly townread.

Kazyan · Post Post #1227 (isolation #80) » Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:50 am

Alice only reached E-1. We have not secured an elimination. 1179

Kazyan · Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:28 am

Jolyne, can you give a quick summary of your reads before the thread locks?

Kazyan · Post Post #1248 (isolation #82) » Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:26 pm

Hi, I wrote notes and did an analysis during the night phase, looking for partners and stuff. I've got reads.

Spoiler: My notes document, in case you're interested

RECOMMENDED ELIMINATIONS:

1. Dwlee (almost everything about this slot is bad juju)
2. Dwlee again
3. Ythan (both scummy and would be a good info flip)
4. Kazyan (I can

not

be around during ELo if I remain widely scumread)

VOTE: Dwlee

Anyway, fire away with questions you've got.

Kazyan · Post Post #1251 (isolation #83) » Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:43 pm

Claim noted.

Also, can we figure out what the deal with Enchant is today before we kill anyone? I feel like if he's town, scum are going to bulldose through Kazyan -> Enchant as miselims and then town will really have to get its act together.

Kazyan · Post Post #1253 (isolation #84) » Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:12 pm

Given that the actual Watcher could confirm or deny Dwlee's claim, and we're supposedly near Mountainous anyway, what does everyone think about a massclaim?

Kazyan · Post Post #1266 (isolation #85) » Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:20 am

In post 1260, Enchant wrote:Idk why you townread him.

It seemed like it was actually reading through the thread and forming scumhunting opinions, and Ythan told me that the pop-in-and-give-a-read communication style was just how DGB rolls. Honestly, I went back and forth on DGB for a while, but the partner analysis came out favorably. We should probably go back through DGB's ISO to specifically check if any of the scum pushes/town defenses went anywhere.

Kazyan · Post Post #1267 (isolation #86) » Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:26 am

Okay, hold on. Now that we're talking about DGB, I notice that DGB was calling Alice locktown and making a big deal out of being called scum just for townreading her, but at the end of the day, it had nothing to say about how much the Alice wagon sucked.

Kazyan · Post Post #1268 (isolation #87) » Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:47 am

In post 1257, Dwlee99 wrote:You found a real crumb this time

Kazyan did you mean to soft watcher there?

I'm not gonna claim my role yet, but it's not Watcher. My use of the word "watch" was a coincidence.

Kazyan · Post Post #1293 (isolation #88) » Fri Aug 27, 2021 9:18 am

@Andre and GMo

, talk to me about how you see Dwlee's claim and DGB right now. I want to hear from you two specifically.

Kazyan · Post Post #1294 (isolation #89) » Fri Aug 27, 2021 9:21 am

Actually, scratch the DGB request; sorting Enchant and figuring out Dwlee's claim are my priorities.

Kazyan · Post Post #1297 (isolation #90) » Fri Aug 27, 2021 9:50 am

In post 1295, Nathann wrote:Re Kazyan's 1248: (Don't have time nor energy to read the entire thing in depth, so I'll be ctrl+F'ing names of interest.)

Why are Dwlee and Ythan actually your main targets for today?

For Dwlee, all I see is that Enchant looks like a designated misyeet for them, that they folded over their Townread of Kazyan when Kyouko suggested otherwise (where did this happen? I cannot find it), a relatively empty Townread of geraintm, and the dislike of 571. I don't think the first and the third one are really that Scummy, the second one I obviously don't get, and I don't think I get what's so bad about the fourth one either - could you elaborate? Oh, I guess the first paragraph within the spoiler also talks about Dwlee, but considering you said the same applies to me and that you Townread me, I assume it's a positive?

For Ythan, I'm not sure I found anything saying why you're Scumreading him specifically, as all the analysis around him seems to be based on whether he can be a partner to different players. Why is he a -2 on the Townosity scale?

Also, please do use post tags to link posts in the future, makes it much easier to follow along.

They're my main targets because of...well, the reasons you went over. Dwlee has been a scumread for me for this whole game, and my heart is now in it. For Ythan in particular, some posts in his ISO looked scummy even if we take partner-like behavior out of the picture, e.g. 1235 pings me as scum just trying to get a reaction in during an eventful hammer instead of being conspicuously absent. That was something I did in my one scumgame here.

Kazyan · Post Post #1318 (isolation #91) » Sat Aug 28, 2021 6:13 am

I think gera is looking for overlaps between the wagons. If they're all town, then a person who appears on multiple wagons looks suspicious--Nathan, Kazyan, and Dwlee fit that criteria. But there's so little overlap that it suggests that we actually were pressuring scum at some point, right?

Kazyan · Post Post #1325 (isolation #92) » Sat Aug 28, 2021 1:34 pm

The political will in this thread is kinda scattered right now (four people seem to be sitting it aside, be it for IRL reasons or just being quiet). I'm reiterating that I'd like to figure out Dwlee's claim and sort Enchant, but I acknowledge that Titus is the new point of interest. If that's what's happening, then Enchant isn't as pressing.

Given Andre's thoughts on Dwlee's claim and the timing thereof--i.e. right after the two scumteam members could talk and form a plan together--I'm keeping my vote where it is. I'm don't like how much rolefishing Dwlee has been doing to me today.

Kazyan · Post Post #1330 (isolation #93) » Sat Aug 28, 2021 1:47 pm

A "bruh" reaction instead of an aggressive "scum confirmed" one looks very town, actually?

This game is hard and I am blind to my jackassery

Kazyan · Post Post #1331 (isolation #94) » Sat Aug 28, 2021 1:53 pm

I think I can see the towncase on someone who softs backup watcher and then gets very confused after they misintepret a different soft, even if I still don't like that ISO

More importantly, why hasn't someone shown up with a chainsaw by now

Kazyan · Post Post #1332 (isolation #95) » Sat Aug 28, 2021 1:54 pm

Not just for my attacks against Dwlee, but to defend

anyone

Is scum content with this gamestate?

Kazyan · Post Post #1333 (isolation #96) » Sat Aug 28, 2021 1:57 pm

Whatever, I'll deal with you later.

Hey Titus, how ya doin'? VOTE: Titus

Kazyan · Post Post #1337 (isolation #97) » Sat Aug 28, 2021 7:47 pm

Sure.

It's not encouraging how even though we know the number of scum and we've had two claims (counting the IC), this game is still so hard to figure out.

Kazyan · Post Post #1345 (isolation #98) » Sun Aug 29, 2021 3:15 am

In post 1343, ssbm_Kyouko wrote:Or GMo is scum and is informed there is no Watcher

You don't even have to be informed if you just wait until everyone else has checked in without screaming "I WATCHED RED VENT; VOTE RED".

Kazyan · Post Post #1346 (isolation #99) » Sun Aug 29, 2021 3:36 am

The claim is kind of 'convenient' but I don't know if I have a good reason to doubt it?

Either way, GMo and Dwlee probably can't be partners unless GMo has nerves of adamantium and thinks "yeah, I'll make a fakeclaim on top of Dwlee's fakeclaim!"

Kazyan · Sun Aug 29, 2021 3:37 am

Oh, yeah, I already said that in my grid. That's basically a confirmed non-team at this point unless I am way, way, way off.

Kazyan · Sun Aug 29, 2021 3:40 am

@Andre

, you're the one who has done the deepest dive on GMo. What do you think?

Kazyan · Sun Aug 29, 2021 3:46 am

Wait, no, I absolutely have reason to doubt it, because of GMo's neighborhood fakeclaim earlier. Why would a Watcher, in a game with two scum and an Innocent Child, put themselves in a position where DGB and Titus could both say "no" to that hood claim and get himself--again, the Watcher that could catch scum for sure the next day--ejected on Day 1?

Kazyan · Sun Aug 29, 2021 3:54 am

What even is this topsy-turvy-ass game? I think I just talked myself into switching the places of my top townread and top scumread??? (Because if GMo is scum, Dwlee has to be town)

Kazyan · Sun Aug 29, 2021 12:02 pm

[flips table]

Kazyan · Sun Aug 29, 2021 12:27 pm

I don't have any advice. There was some stuff with DGB and Enchant that makes me think this game is maybe still solvable, but I'll study it over the night phase.

Kazyan · Sun Aug 29, 2021 12:53 pm

As soon as the mod notices, yeah.

We're about to be in 7 vs 2 mountainous-ish, so we're a little screwed, but I'll effort tonight. Assuming I don't die, anyway.

Kazyan · Wed Sep 01, 2021 2:16 am

I analyzed wagons during the night phase, and I now have a theory on who the scumteam is. I'll check Kyo's ISO to see if his flip corroborates it before I explain.

Kazyan · Wed Sep 01, 2021 2:30 am

Hm, Kyo's ISO is not particularly informative. Kyo's only serious Day 2 activity was dunking on Titus, but we already know everything about Titus.

Half of my jumble of notes is on my home computer, actually, so I can't give my full analysis. I should probably wait until after GMo checks in, anyway.

Kazyan · Wed Sep 01, 2021 4:42 am

VOTE: GrandpaMo for compulsive lying.

Okay, that's out of my system. UNVOTE: GrandpaMo. The actual scumteam is DGB and Ythan (or maybe Andre as a deepwolf), and I'm willing to bet today's elimination on getting DGB gone. VOTE: DGB

Kazyan · Wed Sep 01, 2021 4:51 am

In post 1413, Nathann wrote:Pedit: nice timing. We got any elaboration behind that theory?

Here's the half of my notes I do have available...

Spoiler: Completely jumbled

...But here's the snippet in the note pile that you're probably the most interested in: "It's super interesting to me that there were four doubts on GMo's claim, but only one vote, and that vote came from Titus (who flipped town). I was trying to unconfuse myself at the time, but DGB and Enchant are, like,

confident

that GMo was BS'ing, but they held off voting! DGB even went for Titus, while telling people to vote for GMo,

like it was trying to score that Titus miselim

."

I also remember the reason that I fell out of love with the idea that Enchant could be scum in my other notes. Basically, take a look at what happens around 1019. I'm at E-2, I say I'll claim at E-1, but then two people dismount the wagon. The only other person who we're sure was there to see the whole thing was Enchant. It would have been very pro-scum to push me to claim.

Kazyan · Wed Sep 01, 2021 4:55 am

Oh, there was also that other time I hit E-2 near the end of Day 1, which was when DGB switched from their vanity self-vote to a vote on me. No one switched to me thereafter, despite the time pressure giving everyone an excellent alibi. I'd buy that one scum was on the Alice wagon (or gera sitting out?), but two would have been very unlikely, so that's a bunch of +town for everyone on the Alice wagon and the opposite for everyone on the Kazyan wagon at that time.

Kazyan · Wed Sep 01, 2021 4:58 am

In post 1415, Kazyan wrote:I'd buy that one scum was on the Alice wagon (or gera sitting out?), but two would have been very unlikely, so that's a bunch of +town for everyone on the Alice wagon and the opposite for everyone on the Kazyan wagon at that time.

To clarify: 2 scum on Kazyan wagon = believable, 1 scum = also believable, 0 scum = nah.

Kazyan · Wed Sep 01, 2021 5:04 am

As for Ythan, I arrived at him pretty much through PoE and the partner. Andre's vote behaviors were headtilt-y, so I can't rule him out as strongly as the others, but I don't think we're in a spot where we need to put on the tinfoil yet.

Kazyan · Wed Sep 01, 2021 5:10 am

Absolutely wild that all of this has spun out of me unthinkingly saying the word "watch" in that one post btw

Kazyan · Wed Sep 01, 2021 5:14 am

And Dwlee wouldn't have claimed had he not latched onto that post. I'm not commenting on your analysis, but about how the mod must be having a good guffaw about this played out.

Kazyan · Wed Sep 01, 2021 5:26 am

In post 1427, Nathann wrote:
In post 1415, Kazyan wrote:Oh, there was also that other time I hit E-2 near the end of Day 1, which was when DGB switched from their vanity self-vote to a vote on me. No one switched to me thereafter, despite the time pressure giving everyone an excellent alibi. I'd buy that one scum was on the Alice wagon (or gera sitting out?), but two would have been very unlikely, so that's a bunch of +town for everyone on the Alice wagon and the opposite for everyone on the Kazyan wagon at that time.
Explain like I'm 5, why is voting Alice +Town? Or rather, why would you have expected Scum on you? Because of the soft, or?

Let's say you're scum, and you're on the Alice wagon. The town is in a deadlock, with 6 votes on Alice, 5 votes on Kazyan, and both Alice and gera are sitting out. It's less than 24 hours before deadline. We're all starting to worry about trusting gera with the hammer vote. Word on the street is that Kazyan has a role. What do you do? Sit where you are? Heck, maybe, but I wouldn't trust

both

scum to hang tight.

This means that the likely possibilities are 1 scum on Alice : 1 scum on Kazyan,

or

0 scum on Alice : 2 scum on Kazyan, mumble mumble your preferred style of asterisk here because of gera. So if you're on the Alice wagon at that time, you're in the "statistically lowered scum concentration" zone.

Kazyan · Wed Sep 01, 2021 5:29 am

Like, heck, you could vote me without even having to swing the hammer in that circumstance and just let Alice do the honors whenever she shows up, and then yell at her on Day 2 for hammering the poor poor townie and get her yeeted as well. It's kind of perfect.

Kazyan · Wed Sep 01, 2021 5:50 am

Near the end of day 1, Kyo ends up here, and it's consistent:

In post 1091, ssbm_Kyouko wrote: Prefer to vote any of the other 4, in this order:
Kazyan (scummiest imo)

AliceK
/DGB (not towny)

Titus
(more proficient as town than AliceK/DGB, but also not towny)

In post 1161, ssbm_Kyouko wrote:I'm between Kazyan,
AliceK
/DGB,
Titus
, in that order today.

Kyo didn't change her mind on any of these scumreads on Day 2. I'm pretty set on DGB here, but I get why you're still sorting me.

Kazyan · Wed Sep 01, 2021 3:10 pm

Urgh, fine.

I'm a Vanilla Townie. The purpose of my "softing" on Day 1 was to get myself nightkilled instead of Jolyne--I'm not great at playing Town and I figured that the game was better off with me as a nighttime sacrifice. At first, I had no plans for what I'd actually claim if push came to shove; the whole plan was to die on Night 1. I suddenly got more confident towards the end of Day 1 once I figured out a fakeclaim: Supersaint. All I'd have to do was spin some stuff about how 92 was actually letting the mod know I understood how the role worked after a bunch of PM'd "are you sure this is Normal?" kind of questions, and then if someone hammered me, that would make them nearly conftown in an 11:2 game. Scum would have a massive incentive to avoid the hammer, but a townie could easily afford it.

But then scum didn't fall for it, and GMo made a fakeclaim. I tried to emphasize it a little more, in case scum had me as a second priority, but then scum didn't fall for it and GMo fakeclaimed again. At this point, I believe that the scumteam is informed about the near-mountainous nature of the game--and even if they weren't, they'd have learned to call bullshit. Claiming Supersaint at E-1 would thus invite scum to hammer and then bathe in the town's appreciation, so yeah.

Kazyan · Wed Sep 01, 2021 3:14 pm

By the way, I do buy that DGB's "pls kill me" routine at the end of Day 1 is a little townie, but it was also just...not actually a viable wagon at the time, being so close to deadline. I think it makes more sense as scum play to earn a shield from any future criticism.

Kazyan · Wed Sep 01, 2021 3:24 pm

The two people I want to hear from right now are gera and Enchant. geraintm has repeadly expressed sentiments about waiting until there's more to analyze, Enchant is the only person who consistently scumread Andre on Day 1. I'd like their takes on whether this argument is headed somewhere helpful or down the drain. I'll talk about it if it helps, but I just really want DGB gone.

Kazyan · Wed Sep 01, 2021 3:27 pm

In post 1522, Kazyan wrote:Enchant is the only person who consistently scumread Andre on Day 1

*Besides DGB, but DGB doesn't count because it's scum

Kazyan · Wed Sep 01, 2021 3:32 pm

Well, yeah, I'm admitting it because there's no purpose anymore. Scum clearly doesn't care, and going through with the Supersaint gambit would be anti-town. I get that you don't want me and Nathan driving the game today, but I'm pretty sure we're both town, so I'm comfortable with doing that if it means actually catching a mafia member this time.

Kazyan · Wed Sep 01, 2021 3:43 pm

Alright, cool. I've been living with this "claim Supersaint at E-1 and watch scum squirm" plan in my head for, what, two weeks now(?), so it's probably more opaque than it feels to me. If there are any implications you guys are confused about with that in mind, let me know.

Since I'm at home again, here's my full notes with some redundancies trimmed, but I think I've actually shared everything on DGB that came to mind.

Spoiler: Disorganized pile o' notes

Andre, you're the town's expert on what the scumcase is for GMo. Is the Watcher fakeclaim anti-town, and how/how not?

Kazyan · Wed Sep 01, 2021 3:46 pm

Mistake in the notes pile: DGB shades me when I have a hot take on

it

(You're scum but I'm gonna get your pronouns right)

Kazyan · Thu Sep 02, 2021 12:52 am

In post 1533, Enchant wrote:About Andre question, i don't know. If you are town, and townread me, well you doing it right. I saw more bizarre reasons for reads.

About fakeclaims. I don't think it's anti-town to fakeclaim to draw NK. But i simple don't believe you do that with common sense or any sense at all.
For example, why fake Supersaint and expect to be killed? Supersaint is mostly -2 townies via miselim. WHY NIGHTKILL THIS PRESENT? After town literally forced to skip elim to make even amount of players as well. +1 NK. Ergo: -3 Townies just because of supersaint.

Idk why you simple didn't fake 1-Shot Cop or something like that like i did. Yes i made crumbs as well.

That's the neat part--the plan was to not fakeclaim until I was at E-1 and thus actually going to die. I'd just keep softing that I have some sort of role and let fear of the unknown do the rest. "-3 townies" is exactly why scum would do everything in their power to weasel out of hammering me, and why the actual hammerer would become conftown.

Kazyan · Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:20 am

I like gera's thought processes, now that I can see them, so I'm totally willing to give you a complete townpass until tomorrow.

The way I see it, Andre/Nathan/gera/Dwlee/Enchant have so much towniness going for them that I can afford to put all of our chips on the scumteam being in {DGB, Ythan, GMo}, in that order. I think we're in a really good spot for gamesolving, here.

I don't like the idea of us putting Nathann back on the table, but I admit I haven't been paying close enough attention to him, so a close examination would be informative. Let's do it.

Kazyan · Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:54 am

Enchant has vaguely-scummy words and townie actions. It's the actions that matter more. This is a matter of communication style.

Kazyan · Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:59 am

In post 1551, Dwlee99 wrote:
In post 1550, Kazyan wrote:Enchant has vaguely-scummy words and townie actions. It's the actions that matter more. This is a matter of communication style.
Can I get a TLDR? Haven't taken concentration pills yet today

Something from my notes pile:

viewtopic.php?p=12959312#p12959312
This is my #1019, where I stated that I'd claim at E-1. I'm at E-2, here. What happens thereafter is pretty quick--Dwlee and Nathan unvote, and then Enchant publicly goes to bed. Enchant was around shortly before my E-1 promise and shortly thereafter, so it's reasonable to think the Enchant saw this and decided not to pile that E-1 VOTE: ote onto the wagon. This is important, because scum have a serious incentive to get me to claim, but town doesn't want that on Day 1. Enchant looks town, here.

Kazyan · Fri Sep 03, 2021 3:32 am

My position is still that we tear through {DGB, Ythan, GMo, (a roll of tin foil with which to make a hat), Andre}, basically in that order unless we get some important new info. I didn't expect that DGB's reaction today to be just calling me town and being unbothered by my push, but I need to see DGB saying more than one reasonable thing before it goes down my list. If DGB somehow flips green,

then

we can sort of maybe consider putting Nathann in the PoE bucket.

This interaction makes me confident that GMo should be at the end of that list of three, not the middle. In the current gamestate, scum are kind of boxed-in with the size of the PoE and they really need to

expand

it, not

contract

it, i.e. try to convince us that Nathan is scummy rather than charging into battle with DGB. I guess it wouldn't be 100% awful to bus your partner in this situation, but, like, still 80% awful.

Kazyan · Sat Sep 04, 2021 3:59 am

We're basically waiting for Ythan's input, here. It doesn't look like Andre is getting that robust debate. :/

Kazyan · Sat Sep 04, 2021 5:55 am

I'd try to take a stand and push the boat out, here, but everyone seems to just...agree with my opinion. When I did become town leader?

Kazyan · Sat Sep 04, 2021 6:00 am

In post 1615, Not Known 15 wrote:
Vote Count 3.6Ythan
JacksonVirgo
(3)Nathann;DrippingGoofball;Dwlee99;

Not Voting(2)geraintm;Ythan;

DrippingGoofball (2)Kazyan;GrandpaMo;

GrandpaMo (2)Andresvmb;Enchant;

Look at this; there's not a single person voting for any of my townreads. Scum are either doomed or have already won. I have nothing to argue with except that gera should probably put a vote somewhere.

Kazyan · Sun Sep 05, 2021 3:26 am

The biggest info flip right now would be GMo, so that we can properly read all of those reactions to him. Or maybe gera, with the info being "wtf is gera doing", but we don't need to know that to win the game yet.

These plans are more for Day 4, though--it looks like we have a broad consensus on executing Ythan today instead of DGB. I'm willing to wait a little longer for Ythan's input, but if this goes on until the mod starts searching for a replacement, I'll just vote and get it over with.

Kazyan · Sun Sep 05, 2021 9:41 am

So I know we're being serious here for a minute but I was gonna do a whole crytyping post about how I still want DGB to go, but I don't think the joke would land.

In post 1666, Dwlee99 wrote:There must be an issue in the solve or scum are bussing.

I can't say I'm thrilled that we have what I think is an 8/9 consensus on Ythan being scum (would scum bus their partner here?), but the counterwagon is still in my "eliminate these three to instantly win and receive a free toaster" group, so whatever.

Kazyan · Sun Sep 05, 2021 9:59 am

I mean, as far as I can tell, it's literally true that everyone scumreads you?

Kazyan · Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:10 am

Kazyan · Sun Sep 05, 2021 12:01 pm

I haven't gone back to verify, but I cannot recall anyone townreading Ythan today or objecting to his place on the chopping block. At the minimum, everyone seems cool with Ythan being eliminated.

Kazyan · Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:59 am

Yeah, Ythan has been scumreading me for basically this whole game.

Nathan, when you're done talking to GMo, I'm willing to drop the hammer. We could wait for a claim, but I wouldn't trust it at this point.

Kazyan · Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:14 pm

We're not really "set" on anyone. The two wagons are both people that I'm comfortable yeeting.

Kazyan · Mon Sep 06, 2021 3:34 pm

In post 1722, Nathann wrote:
In post 1676, DrippingGoofball wrote:VOTE: GrandpaMo
What were the thoughts behind this vote?

Quoting this so I know to poke DGB about it tomorrow, unless something weird happens.

Kazyan · Mon Sep 06, 2021 3:35 pm

VOTE: GrandpaMo

Bottom text

Kazyan · Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:26 pm

In post 1730, Ythan wrote:
In post 1720, Kazyan wrote:Yeah, Ythan has been scumreading me for basically this whole game.
I remembered this comment in a flash while smoking a cigarette don't you think I'm scum?

Yep. You're next if I can't get DGB, xoxo

P-edit: If you want to be more technical, I can say 'pretending to scumread me' instead, but the message was clear I think

Kazyan · Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:48 pm

In post 1733, Ythan wrote:I'm not interested in correcting your word choice. I think it reflects your thoughts and that's what I'm commenting on.

Got it. You've been posting townier things than usual since you've re-engaged, so that's probably why I autocompleted with those words.

Kazyan · Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:02 pm

I don't have another wall--I hoped to do some extra nightkill analysis, but I took this week off of work and have been chilling. I'm just getting worried because we're close to ELo and still haven't caught scum yet, and it's going to suck if I'm around when we're out of miselims, particularly with a 40% scum concentration. I'm too easy to manipulate.

All I figured out is that with GMo flipping green, that means I really misinterpreted what was going on with that Watcher fakeclaim, and Dwlee needs to be back on the table.

Andre's death implies that scum weren't particularly worried about my {DGB, Ythan, GMo, (uh oh), Andre} solve. That said, I remember that Andre's solve was something like {Ythan, GMo, Kazyan}, so scum might not be setting me up.

VOTE: DGB

I want to do some NKA with geraintm in mind. gera has been townread by almost everyone after day 1, while having a set of reads that diverge a lot from consensus. Do the deaths of Kyo and Andre--instead of ger at any point--tall us anything about how accurate those reads are, or gera's alignment?

Kazyan · Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:16 pm

Here's DGB's ISO from a recent scumgame of it's. Looking back on that, I'm seeing way, way more solvy energy in this game than that one. P-edit: Notice that DGB's play here is different: in this game, DGB just spews a bunch of reads and refuses to usefully elaborate. In the scumgame, DGB actually tries to fabricate some reasons.

With the "our reads suck and so do we" interpretation of this six-town massacre, I think I'll just let DGB go. UNVOTE: DGB

I want to flip Ythan, but my heart's not in it. Like, if he's town, do I just die on Day 5?

Kazyan · Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:23 pm

I guess that Andre's death doesn't tell us anything about Ythan, because of that 8/9 consensus I talked about--there wouldn't be any way for Ythan's partner to take the heat off of him, right?

Kazyan · Thu Sep 09, 2021 1:12 pm

In post 1753, Nathann wrote:Kazyan, you played in that game you linked, right? How come you only now thought to compare the ISOs?

I'm not sure, honestly. It seems so obvious to do in hindsight.

In post 1754, Dwlee99 wrote:
In post 1752, Kazyan wrote:I guess that Andre's death doesn't tell us anything about Ythan, because of that 8/9 consensus I talked about--there wouldn't be any way for Ythan's partner to take the heat off of him, right?
Counterwagon?

Maybe, but I'm not sure why they'd shoot Andre for that. Perhaps the scumteam was trying to preserve the budding Nathan suspicion going around? But if they wanted to shoot someone low-impact, they coulda just hit Enchant, unless Enchant is scum. And I don't think Enchant is scum.

Kazyan · Thu Sep 09, 2021 1:21 pm

Oh, I misinterpreted you. I thought you meant "shoot someone to best set up a counterwagon on Day 4".

Kazyan · Thu Sep 09, 2021 1:25 pm

...which points us to, uh, DGB and Ythan. And me, obviously, but I'm town.

Waiting to hear from gera, then.

Kazyan · Thu Sep 09, 2021 1:29 pm

Yeah. My vote is on Ythan in spirit right now, but let's hear from Enchant and gear here before I do that.

Kazyan · Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:26 am

In post 1770, geraintm wrote:if someone is going to make a case i am scum, then please try so we can get past that quickly and look at real suspects.

i have bad reads and i am always unable to persuade anyone else in their validity....so maybe they aren't bad?

You're not scum; you're the ancient sage on the mountain and I'm trying to figure out if you're a kook or have actual ancient wisdom. That last sentence seems like a good point.

Since you think I'm scum, who do you think is the other one?

Kazyan · Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:52 am

I'm

not

happy to let you worry about that later. What I'm seeing is a fellow townie being laser-focused on me, in 5:2, when we have no investigative roles or anything, our PoE is falling apart, and multiple other people sussing me. Basically, if 1) you're not willing to vote for anyone but me, and 2) we get another miselim (and it's not me or you that gets yeeted), then we lose.

And since we've sucked, our PoE is pointing to Ythan, but the wise sage on the mountain says that Ythan isn't scum...who do we vote for?

P-edit: Agreed, DGB. I keep making the mistake of forming scumreads, which are always bad, instead of townreads, which are generally passable.

Kazyan · Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:57 am

I mean obviously your answer to "who do we vote for" is "Kazyan", but let's pretend for a second that I'm town. Now who do we vote for?

Kazyan · Fri Sep 10, 2021 10:30 am

I don't know if I'm okay with how disinterested Enchant is in scumhunting today.

Kazyan · Sat Sep 11, 2021 5:50 am

In post 1805, Enchant wrote:Bruh.

I am disinterested for whole game, why you made this your concern just now?

??? You and Nathan both are using the "why didn't you think of this earlier" argument, and I don't know what to say to that. But, like, it's

really

obvious today that you just don't care.

Kazyan · Sat Sep 11, 2021 6:37 am

You get how bad the position we're in is, right? gera (town) wants me (town) dead, and you (town??) just don't care about anything that's going on and your sentiment has been "roll the dice" instead of trying to solve the game.

What's going to happen is that we eliminate someone--probably another townie because I'm the town leader right now and am recycled garbage at scumhunting--and then the scumteam will convince you and/or Nathan to vote me out tomorrow and lose. Assuming you're not one of them, anyway.

Kazyan · Sat Sep 11, 2021 7:03 am

I'm not cool with being hit up with this "why didn't you think of this earlier? Suspicious!" from two different people--active discouragement from scumhunting--and gera straight-up refusing to give a second scumread or look for a partner. You guys cannot lean on me to tell you who is scum. I never get it right unless I sheep, and people get furious when I do that. So I'm going to abdicate my position as town leader and make you guys care. VOTE: Kazyan

Kazyan · Sat Sep 11, 2021 12:10 pm

Okay, I've calmed down now. That's everyone who has checked in after my self-vote, besides Ythan, who is already on-wagon? Cool.

In post 1816, geraintm wrote:Kazyan not getting puahed over the edge now when they could so easily be is telling to me

See, this is good! This is cool! I want input like this, and I agree with it.

With how generally-scumread Ythan is (gera excluded), shouldn't the lack of a hammer pretty much confirm that there's scum in {Ythan, Kazyan}? If we're both town, that means there's at least one scum off-wagon, and they could just hammer, kill gera on Night 4, and then push the Day 5 wagon over Ythan by appealing to how many eliminations he's participated in.

Since I know I'm town, this confirms Ythan as scum to me. I don't want him to self-hammer just yet, so instead of voting him immediately, UNVOTE: .

Kazyan · Sat Sep 11, 2021 1:01 pm

In post 1814, Nathann wrote:
In post 1644, Kazyan wrote:The biggest info flip right now would be GMo, so that we can properly read all of those reactions to him. Or maybe gera, with the info being "wtf is gera doing", but we don't need to know that to win the game yet.
I hate the justification "info flip". I know if comes from Town sometimes, like from GrandpaMo Yesterday, but still. What did you learn when GrandpaMo flipped green?

Probably my biggest problem with Kazyan in geraintm's analysis is the vote switchiness between GrandpaMo and Ythan. Though they were upfront about their PoE, I guess... I'll think about it when I manage the brainpower.

I learned that I read the whole situation with Dwlee wrong, and so Dwlee wasn't locktown anymore, but I was banking on how if he flipped red, I'd already ruled out a bunch of partner interactions including DGB. So if GMo flipped red, gg, yeet Ythan and Andre thereafter and win.

Kazyan · Sun Sep 12, 2021 10:22 am

In post 1823, Nathann wrote:Nope, still feeling like crap. I'll use the "I'm voting Ythan and he hasn't responded about his Kazyan vote yet" excuse.

Dislike the "no hammer confirms Scum between us" since not every Scum (I'd even say the majority) would have the guts to quickhammer there, knowing they'd be under pressure because of that Tomorrow. I want to say that the conviction is Townie, though?

Kazyan, is this something you'd do as Scum? Pull a self vote then argue conclusions because of not being hammered?

I've never been in a position to do that as scum, so I can't say for sure, but I was a nervous wreck about getting a single vote in my one scumgame. I don't think I'd have the guts to put myself at E-1 in a room full of people scumreading me and then flounce off into the sunset.

Kazyan · Sun Sep 12, 2021 10:25 am

I laugh outright at the notion that explaining reasons for a scumread is pointless in a game of Mafia, from a person with a 2009 join date. Enchant, are you seeing this?

Kazyan · Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:03 pm

Damn right it's shading. Your scumgame sucks.

Kazyan · Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:39 pm

(Actually you survived this long so it doesn't suck, but still)

Kazyan · Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:03 pm

No worries. We have time.

Kazyan · Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:32 am

I'm not good enough at the game to explain why I'm bad at the game, I just know that I am and that nothing is working. I try to scumhunt with a variety of analysis tools to understand situations that I can't otherwise make heads or tails out of, even though the amount of information is more-than-sufficient for experienced players, and then get it wrong every time. I also can't appeal to meta, here, because I've done a lot of dumb things in this game that I also did during my one scumgame. I could lay out a slam-dunk scumcase on myself right now, and you'd all be 100% confident that I'm part of the scumteam, and then I'll flip green. And I don't have the mental framework to even guess what the meaningful differences between the red game and the green game are, as if there's a part of my theory of mind that simply doesn't work.

I have a pretty decent towncase on every single player besides Ythan right now, but you can't all be town. Enchant's votes and pushes are non-opportunistic. DGB is playing very different from its scumgame. Dwlee is actually analyzing the game, and Nathan even moreso. Given the above and looking for the weakest/easiest-to-face rationales, If I were in charge of eliminations, I'd go Ythan -> Dwlee -> (Enchant or Nathan, depending on nightkill analysis). I know that Dwlee's scumgame can fake analysis, from the Dogs Vs. Cats game, and Enchant's sitting-around commentariatism is easier than Nathan's engagement or DGB's divergence from its scum play. That said, I'm a little worried about how Nathan has been hemming and hawwing back and forth between me and Ythan.

Kazyan · Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:52 am

In post 1846, geraintm wrote:You didn't even mention me

My townread on you is based on

je ne ses qua

and the lack of trying to blend in, admittedly. Does my plan make sense to you otherwise?

Dwlee, do you have a scumread besides Ythan?
Ythan, do you have a scumread besides Kazyan?
Nathan, is the scumteam Kazyan/Ythan, or is there anyone else on your list?
DGB, have you found any more townies?

Kazyan · Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:34 am

Enchant, please claim.

Everyone else, please do not put Enchant at E-1 yet.

Kazyan · Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:35 am

Oh, wait, missed gera's claim. Never mind on that, Enchant.

Kazyan · Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:43 am

I had a theory that Enchant was Bulletproof, not you.

My plan was "get Enchant to claim. If he says VT, eliminate him. If he says Bulletproof, eliminate DGB."

Based on Ythan's ISO, I think those are the only two partners worth considering. I have notes and will post once I get the formatting correct.

Kazyan · Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:52 am

P-edit for Nathan: In my first game, a Bulletproof player claimed 2-Shot Macho Cop to bait the nightkill, and Enchant mentioned softing that he was a 1-shot Cop as well.

---

Actually, these are a lot of [post] tags that I'd have to add; just open up Ythan's ISO and follow along with my thoughts, since they're in order.

125 - Quick peck at gera. Continues to call gera pointless through 136 and votes in 138. Could be that "early distancing" tech.
126 - Calls Alice's read fake
187 - "I'll consider your advice going forward" regarding Andre saying that gera will be useless on Day 1. Thonk.
307, 345, and 370 - Defending DGB's reads as typical DGB, three times.
380 - Pivoting to GMo
410 - Defending DGB again
412 - "not saying DGB is town" uh okay buddy
414 - DGB defense
The jist: Defending DGB while emphasizing leaving possibility open for being scum, oh mama
527 - "this is scummy/low hanging fruit" peck at Enchant
603 - "I could vote DGB but it's not worse than Gramps"
680 - "I could do Kazyan but I'd rather not do a lurker (Enchant) over him or Gramps d1."
681 - "Still prefer Gramps over Kaz though actually"
683 and 687 - Yelling match with Enchant. Frustrated with each other? They're not actually giving reasons for scumreading each other, just being mad. And check out 686, by Enchant: "I can't do all work here." We know the scum don't have daychat. What are you trying to say by 'work', pal?
694 - suggestion that a lurker, in general, could be killed here
700 - Summary of the entire Enchant/Ythan shouting match. Look at how

stilted

this is.
723 through 743 or so - goes back to shading GMo
1100 - "Not like sitting on Gramps with DGB is doing any good now." hello is this a parnter slip?
1660 - "DGB wagon is rank trash." Keep defending your partner there, friend
1662 - "Gera voting Nathan right now is equally ridiculous." This is just tacked-on to make it look like Ythan doesn't care about only DGB.
1685 - Calling gera's Andre/GMo townlean opinion (both correct) 'made-up'
1716 - Defend DGB again with possibility that it's wrong if Kazyan and GMo both flip green. Does this on Day 2 when they're at 9:2, so this check would only have to be cashed at 5:2 even if we both got eliminated
1757 - Final scumreads: Enchant and Gera

---

Ythan spent a loooot of time defending DGB, but had that fake-o argument with Enchant. Tried to make Gera a possibile elimination towards the end. Had nothing to say about Dwlee at all.

Kazyan · Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:55 am

In post 1899, Dwlee99 wrote:That reads like a town slip unless it was faked cause Kazyan would know who the NK target was if they were scum.

I have so much experience being an idiot on accident that I could be an idiot on purpose if I wanted, tbh

Kazyan · Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:27 am

In post 1910, Nathann wrote:So, does anyone have any good arguments for why we shouldn't yeet Enchant here, who we should yeet instead of them, and why?

I haven't gotten a proper vibe check on my Ythan/DGB speculation yet, so I'd like some feedback on that before we drop a hammer. But I think, either way, Enchant is the way to go.

Kazyan · Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:50 pm

gera claimed Bulletproof, so no, unless there's a 1-shot restriction or something (which gera should keep to himself, thank you). They'd shoot me or Nathan.

Kazyan · Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:01 pm

Oh, I interpreted "it was only for one night" in the context of him crawling out of the death tunnel against me (i.e. tunneling on me partially being a performance to bait the nightkill). I'm still not sure that we'd lose gera, though, with Nathan and myself also being around.

No Elimination is indeed an option today. There's a thing that might happen which would make this game an autowin, but we might also lose the political will to actually eliminate scum.

Kazyan · Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:17 pm

That said, if we're going to eliminate Enchant next anyway, does it even matter if we No Elim? Everyone except Nathan has claimed, so I'm almost certain we don't have investigative roles or anything. We might as well do Enchant's elimination today.

Kazyan · Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:15 am

I agree that there's that small chance that it's actually Dwlee, but let's not overthink ourselves out of victory, here. We can only pick two, and the best chance at success is {Enchant, DGB}.

Still looking for that vibe check on my interpretation of how Ythan treated DGB, by the way.

Kazyan · Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:27 am

Discussing DGB is the main thing I want to get done today before we throw out Enchant, by the way.

Kazyan · Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:22 pm

In post 1960, Nathann wrote:Kazyan, why do you want to discuss DGB Today if you're already set on yeeting Enchant?

I want to double-check my work with you, gera, and Dwlee to make sure I've got this right before we take the plunge and commit to eliminating exactly Enchant -> DGB. It will also help if we're all on the same page and committed to this solve in case Enchant flips green and we (maybe) do that No Elimination in his honor--I don't want an endgame with something like town!gera, town!Dwlee, and scum!DGB, where after so much downtime, DGB manages to smooth-talk gera into voting Dwlee.

gera, do you have any thoughts on DGB? If not, I'll place my vote.

Kazyan · Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:29 pm

That said, I'm starting to think I want to do DGB today?

Kazyan · Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:38 pm

DGB, there's only 1 scum left, not two. Jolyne said there were two at the beginning of the game, and we caught Ythan, leaving one remaining.

Kazyan · Sat Sep 18, 2021 3:45 am

FFS fine, we'll skip.

This game is taking up too much of my headspace. I had a dream about this game last night that told me it was Dwlee.

Kazyan · Sat Sep 18, 2021 5:05 am

I just don't get it. You keep talking about the math of skipping like we're going to pick a townie completely at random, instead of following the reads we've developed--that we're not just going to kill DGB tomorrow. I don't care what the randomness math says, because we're not picking at random. If it's DGB, we win, and if it's not, we lose. I'm skipping tomorrow because you're going to throw a tantrum at me post-game if I don't, not because it improves our chances.

Kazyan · Sat Sep 18, 2021 5:23 am

I suppose this is a Monty Hall problem and we'd be better off switching to Dwlee tomorrow. I'm too fatigued to really care, though.

Kazyan · Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:45 am

VOTE: No Elimination

Kazyan · Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:07 am

So...do you have more than one shot, gera?

Kazyan · Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:31 am

In post 2036, geraintm wrote:I was really hoping the previous night I would be shot again so we wouldn't have 4 people left

I think it all worked out, anyway. The nightkill attempts of gera (failed) -> Nathann (succeeded) -> gera (failed) tell me a lot, but to be sure I've got this right, I need a full claim, please--this is a Normal game, so you were given some combination of standard roles and modifiers; tell us what those roles and modifiers are.

Kazyan · Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:54 am

In post 2038, Dwlee99 wrote:Is there a reason to not no lim again and see what happens?

Hold off on that--I want to talk to gera, first. This is important.

Kazyan · Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:00 am

What do you think we should do, Dwlee?

Kazyan · Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:25 am

I'm kinda down for Happily Ever After, tbh.

Kazyan · Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:22 am

If no one's going to say anything, then, fine.

VOTE: No Elimination

I don't know what's going to happen tomorrow, but if I'm not around, I trust gera to make the right decision.

Kazyan · Wed Sep 29, 2021 1:13 am

Another shot at gera, huh

Kazyan · Wed Sep 29, 2021 1:43 am

I don't have the emotional energy to advocate for myself today and I thought this game would be over two day phases ago, so I'm just gonna do this and see if it works

VOTE: Dwlee

It doesn't make sense for anyone else to desperation-shoot gera repeatedly. DGB's endgame is either 1) reignite gera's paranoia on me or 2) shoot me and watch gera + Dwlee make "idk" faces at each other. The only way this final 3 makes sense to me is if you definitely need both me and DGB around to secure the win

Kazyan · Wed Sep 29, 2021 5:11 am

Hmm, yes, and here is my rebuttal:

[fart noise]

Kazyan · Wed Sep 29, 2021 5:52 am

not reading all of that tbh

Kazyan · Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:53 am

Yeah whatever

Listen, DGB, I know you want me to do the dance with Dwlee where we both present our greatest and best arguments against each other, but the thing is, I don't wanna do that

Dwlee's scumgame is as untraceable as it was in Dogs Vs. Cats and the only reason I YOLO'd this today was because it stopped making sense that you had like 4 opportunities to kill me and 4 chances to make a really safe nightkill against Dwlee.

Like you can go ahead and vote for me if you're convinced by Dwlee's case and I'll just take the L with you, but the last time I did this ultimate final battle thing, I was played like a fiddle in like three different ways, so no, I'll just wait for you to pick a vote and let Jolyne/Andre/Kyo/Enchant chew me out postgame for not trying

Kazyan · Wed Sep 29, 2021 8:18 am

jfc how did you pull all of this off. That's diabolical. I know you can't answer until post-game but just please keep this question in mind after DGB votes because I'm just really impressed

Kazyan · Wed Sep 29, 2021 8:18 am

Was Ythan a designated fall guy from the start, or what

Kazyan · Wed Sep 29, 2021 9:18 am

Ok. When you're allowed to take the mask off again I'd love to hear your real opinion