Mini Normal 2267 | Music Hits of 2010-2014 | GAME OVER

[angela]

like realistically the only thing you can do with it is send msgs that say "hey if you receive this message then say ____" in your first post of the day and if they don't say it then you find a mafia ascetic?

its kind of a shitty checker?

likelihood to you right now?

[angela]

Scorpious could be lying but doesn't seem a sensible call to me.

if scorpious was a mafia!mailman would it seem like a sensible call to you?

Well if Scorpious was mafia than yes obviously, what's the question here?

like you are saying it doesn't seem sensible for scorpious to lie

i am asking that if scorpious is truthful about role but not alignment

then would it seem sensible to you?

because at the very very least we can kinda assume that scorpious is a mailman, or potentially partnered with a mailman though that would be more dangerous,

like it doesn't seem super sensible for scorpious to make up a mailman

sure

but does it seem sensible for scorpious to claim and such and does everything check out to you if scorpious is a mafia mailman?

like it's strange to me that your assumption would automatically be, yes, that doesn't make sense as a lie

[angela]

part of me would think he'd make a better fakeclaim but then maybe that's the whole point to WIFOM us hrmmm...

is there actually a better fakeclaim if scorpious is a mafia mailman though?

like i think it's pretty likely that scorpious is a mailman right now

but more a question of alignment to me

unless there is something i am missing here

[angela]

like realistically the only thing you can do with it is send msgs that say "hey if you receive this message then say ____" in your first post of the day and if they don't say it then you find a mafia ascetic?

its kind of a shitty checker?

likelihood to you right now?

no idea on the setup spec atp

I'm fine with letting him live today and maybe picking someone else becuz role claims get clarified later

becuz if scorp is a town mailman and there is a mafia ascetic in this game i dont think mafia can just let him live and look for them

hm yeah maybe kinda feeling this course of action

but also want to stress that confirmed mailman in no way is confirmed town

and can think of other angles beyond mafia ascetic in terms of relevance but,

probably shouldn't start doing the thing

[angela]

maybe claim anything that would make us care about wanting to keep him alive. you know like an invest or something

idk scorpious was really stressing the provability of it

which is pretty ??????????????????????????????????

when the claimed role is mailman as the only thing you can prove is that you're a mailman not alignment or anything

[angela]

Who is your main? j/w

if directed to me,

this account is my main (generally used for moderating {which i would like to do more of if ever i become inspired again +/})

but team rocket queen was my first account and i am probably most often associated with shiki, as that is the account that has speakeasy access and the one i have played the most on and the one other users generally refer to me as when trying to compile

though inutile is probably the one i most associate with myself

[angela]

as inutile feels like

me

whereas angela feels like one of my heroes

[angela]

this was, apparently, what she was saying after all.

do you feel like i incorrectly weighted the possibilities at that time?

[angela]

shiki

ah, I never knew it was you lol

to be fair there are a lot of mes

[angela]

kinda a weird coincidence

that nero cain and i were mafia in my very first game on site

and there was a mafia mailman on our team

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=82337

and scorpious claimed mailman

and nero cain asked me about my main

like everything coming together

sometimes everything feels meant to be

[angela]

so you r thinking nero+scorp scum?

it seems more likely one of those coincidences!

i am trying so hard to not think the coincidences are so meaningful anymore even though it still feels like i should note them at the very least

as i have found that most people do not look at things the way i do

and thus would probably not orchestrate this sort of thing as mafia

[angela]

so you r thinking nero+scorp scum?

like of course i could do the thing

make all of the connections

build the marvelous glass castle

but because of very helpful in terms of learning mafia interactions with another

i am trying so hard to ask myself

but does this seem like something non-me mafia would actually do

[angela]

so you r thinking nero+scorp scum?

but also i certainly cannot say that

the thought did not cross my mind

[angela]

I think from observing Nero play town in Infernal Affairs - he has a lot of conviction in his reads and pushes.

and Nero!scum in the last mini I played with him did not

so this feels a lot closer to Nero!scum than nero!town to me - I am not sure what he believes or even wants to do.

okay i will go find the post i townread earlier i suppose and try to explain

and you and whoever else would like to can tell me if unreasonable

but it felt like one of those posts that i put into town folder unless i have reason to believe does not belong there

[angela]

I think from observing Nero play town in Infernal Affairs - he has a lot of conviction in his reads and pushes.

and Nero!scum in the last mini I played with him did not

so this feels a lot closer to Nero!scum than nero!town to me - I am not sure what he believes or even wants to do.

okay i will go find the post i townread earlier i suppose and try to explain

and you and whoever else would like to can tell me if unreasonable

but it felt like one of those posts that i put into town folder unless i have reason to believe does not belong there

here it is:

VOTE: angela

VOTE: kittytacky

Ooh, do me next..

Love when a slots only 2 posts are naked votes..

Love…it…

Maybe feels a bit more lazy town than mafia to me though? I dunno, no meta on Rathe but I feel like most mafia players will at least want to give some justification for a fairly lazy vote early on.

scum very much do naked votes but I feel like I sorta got where Rathe was coming from, prob thinks that kitty is scummy for hedging a bit and calling it TvT. That's an EZ play for scum to make and could point to being informed. Juxtapose that to gera coming in and plopping down a 4th vote to turn an RVS wagon into a serious one.

it is like, nero cain took time to understand the context of rathe vote, then extrapolated from that potential reasoning behind (though maybe this bit fairly trivial) but also provides evaluation of that and comparison

which sure also served purpose of continued push on geraintm

but it felt pretty towny to me





thinking about nero cain voting not mafia recently instead of returning to geraintm now, but, too fuzzy right now to even try to reach any conclusions there

[angela]

thinking about nero cain voting not mafia recently instead of returning to geraintm now, but, too fuzzy right now to even try to reach any conclusions there

and not mafia my preferred default elimination anyway and maybe that is also possibly a factor in nero cain doing so

so it maybe does not feel like the most reasonable of exercises to try to glean much from this

[angela]

i feel pretty comfortable with my town group of andres angela scorpius nero galron n i dont think we should be voting scorpius

This last bit feels off. Town blocking scorpious and then elevating? him.

hmhmhm

maybe noteworthy that at that time scorpious had just hinted at potentially claiming a pr for the first time

or at least the first time that i really noticed

715

guess it isn't really a hint as much as a statement

[angela]

and not mafia my preferred default elimination

I think is a reasonable take for me but I'm not sure whether it is for angela. I haven't gotten there yet.

i mean,

at least some of my takes at any given time are unreasonable and i would greatly appreciate the help in determining which ones

however that isn't exactly alignment indicative for me lol

[angela]

and not mafia my preferred default elimination

I think is a reasonable take for me but I'm not sure whether it is for angela. I haven't gotten there yet.

i mean,

at least some of my takes at any given time are unreasonable and i would greatly appreciate the help in determining which ones

however that isn't exactly alignment indicative for me lol

like if you want to take the time to explain to me why you think something i am saying is unreasonable and such,

as always that is something i am often not particularly great at determining myself,

like i say the things because they make sense to me and if they don't make sense to you then explaining why is most appreciated

but if it's going to be, any sort of and thus you're town! or and thus you're scum!

it is like, well i know i am town the thing i might not understand is why i am wrong or why you think i am wrong et cetera

like you doing so gives me more to think about with regards to the original topic and more to think about with regards to you

whereas the evaluative things with regards to my alignment are mostly waves hand

[angela]

just fyi. I will be claiming at 5 votes, I'm not waiting around for an opportunistic vote and the inevitable quickhammer.

I'm clearly a mislim target today..

Okay this answers why he claimed, and I understand it. Was he really at 5 votes though?

Damnit, I did the same thing I said like 100 posts I want to stop doing..

UNVOTE:

I’m a town mailman b t dubs

He was at 4 votes here.

hmhmhm,

i feel like it is hard for me to see why this would really matter,

but it also feels quite similar to you wanting to know why i voted with minutes on the clock in last game as town

but could very much be a galron thing and not an alignment thing

[angela]

goodnight all +) <3

[angela]

On other matters - I think Pooky's posts on Nero are quite solid, but I also reckon mafia Nero maybe doesn't accept Scorpious' claim here so easily maybe? Could be one for mafia to push and seed some doubt.

okay but why do you accept scorpious’s claim so easily?

[angela]

are you a mason?

Even easier to prove than that..

Are you an activated IC or what? You already basically claimed it, might as well reveal?

hm

[angela]

Damnit, I did the same thing I said like 100 posts I want to stop doing..

UNVOTE:

I’m a town mailman b t dubs

UNVOTE:
Send someone you think is town the message "I'm Scorpius and I'm town" or an equivalent tonight then. If they claim they didn't get it, we hang you tomorrow and then them if you were really mailman. 1 for 1. But for now, live.

Few problems here.
1.What if I message scum?
2.Why would anyone believe a random "Hey I'm town" It's possible,but if I got a message like that I'm taking it with a grain of salt.
3.You're lining up lims, never good.

also like potential roleblocker et cetera

ugh the tabling until next day thing feels kinda meh here

[angela]

are you a mason?

Even easier to prove than that..

Are you an activated IC or what? You already basically claimed it, might as well reveal?

hm

I didn't critique those weird comments because it felt like they were doing what I do often, read a post,respond,,then SURPRISE, they answered the question I just asked in the very next post..

a few things to that hm i guess

like i also asked about activated innocent child and such also after you had otherwise claimed while i was reading

and it made me think about how like

why did you think andresvmb pushing you immediately before you claimed was mafia indicative?

and also with things like that i want to make note of it to look at later from a process perspective

like does it actually seem like kittytacky hadn’t yet read the intervening posts and such

like try to reserve engineer how posts seem to have been made

[angela]

honestly, don't know. i normally sit there day 2 and look at the wagons that formed and who was on which ones. i normally have some idea that some wagons are obviously on town players, and anyone joining them for crappy reasoning get naughty points. that combined with whatever info players bring to the table day 2 are what i go on.
im not going to waste the time doing that now though

you realize you can do this ,in real time, on D1.. right?

This post almost gives me the impression you're setting the table to not do much in D2 either..

You are either scum or a Town Pr looking to not get nk'd. I can't decide right now.

Yeah I would at least be willing to accept this if we were in a larger game but 13-player setup means we have, what, max five turns or so? If you're mafia Geraint right now, you can lie low, claim this is your meta approach, and then hope in D2 someone else comes under heavy pressure and then coast into D3 while giving the town barely any evidence to use against you going forward. Fundamentally I just really dislike the idea we should be expected to do all the work so they can finally start playing on D2.

still i fundamentally agree and have tried to engage geraintm with the game to mostly no avail

(though i do think it is kinda absurd that when geraintm did say a few things that scorpious (i think) then said ‘ah i find it scummy that you want to try now!’ or something like that like ….)

still doesn’t make geraintm a particularly likely mafia

like sure it would be quite easy for geraintm to play this way as mafia, but how exactly does that make geraintm the very most likely mafia? how exactly does that make geraintm more likely mafia than other players playing similarly? do you disagree with the information i think we would gain from not mafia elimination as opposed to geraintm?

also like if scorpious had said yes when i asked if scorpious was a mason i would have assumed you were the other mason because something does not feel right here

[angela]

why did you think andresvmb pushing you immediately before you claimed was mafia indicative?

It's a bad habit I have, I've said it a few times. I respond to pushes with votes,I usually remove them quickly if I can get over myself fast enough.

there’s like, hm,

it’s like you say andresvmb potentially mafia because maybe echoed things i said, which doesn’t make a lot of sense because even if assumed to be true could be done as either alignment,

which i was thinking about because it doesn’t feel like you applied that to anyone else, like kittytacky in this instance,

but it becomes super messy line of thought for me because it’s hard to see why apply it in the first place if not seemingly done in a malicious way

like it’s not mafia indicative to share similar thoughts in and of itself

[angela]

like does it actually seem like kittytacky hadn’t yet read the intervening posts and such

I got the impression they were reading and reacting, I do that a lot too..

oh i also do that a lot, i was maybe leaning that way on first impression but wanted to go through and look at it to make sure later, as it did feel earlier that kittytacky was maybe taking a pre planned approach

so i wanted to look at this closely to see if felt similarly or not when i tried to build it

[angela]

I have bad feelings about Scorpious and Morning Tweet.

VOTE: Scorpious

thoughts on

scorpious and malcolmtucker both moving to pressuring geraintm at dissolution of andresvmb wagon when there was more existing pressure on you (if i am remembering correctly)?

[angela]

just fyi. I will be claiming at 5 votes, I'm not waiting around for an opportunistic vote and the inevitable quickhammer.

I'm clearly a mislim target today..

Okay this answers why he claimed, and I understand it. Was he really at 5 votes though?

Damnit, I did the same thing I said like 100 posts I want to stop doing..

UNVOTE:

I’m a town mailman b t dubs

He was at 4 votes here.

hmhmhm,

i feel like it is hard for me to see why this would really matter,

but it also feels quite similar to you wanting to know why i voted with minutes on the clock in last game as town

but could very much be a galron thing and not an alignment thing

That he was concerned about E-2 because Not Mafia is in the game, but he didn't wait to claim at E-2, he claimed at E-3 when he wasn't under threat of imminent elimination.

i had stated my vote preference at that time so it’s not like scorpious would have felt not mafia was the only outstanding source of potential votes

like it makes sense to me that either alignment would claim there, especially having previously stressed that they would claim

like better to claim too early than too late

[angela]

around in ~3ish hours

will be 0%

but! here

[angela]

hmmmm you're lucky I already committed to sheeping Angela

ya know how

sometimes you say that the scums are probably laughing at you in the private topic?

if you're mafia here you are probably laughing at me +(

[angela]

I hope Angela's right, if she's not tho there will be more chances

probably not for me though!

but!

it is interesting that you say this!

as i have been really trying very very hard to embrace this sort of thinking in other areas

but also like,

both you and pooky know i am prone to steering the ship off the face of the earth sometimes

[angela]

um when

i guess maybe there isn't quite as clear cut answer for a game you were in as there is for a game morning tweet was in

but i do think the second of the five team all hydras game counts

[angela]

if you want I am happy to steer the ship instead :3

i do not mind so much,

will say how i am feeling and such here,

and if you disagree it is of course fine not to sheep me even though you said you would and such

going to keep my eyes open as long as i can because outside of a few moments when i can check in on my phone won't really be able to tomorrow before deadline

i guess maybe mostly it is like,

sometimes i am very confident and i guess it is at those times i wish i had this blanket

and othertimes i am more unsure and then it feels like, i know i should probably be able to figure better, but so messy

[angela]

shiki do you understand how much power you have when you are in a game?

i guess maybe i do not understand

or at least i do not understand the why

but there have definitely been times where i wished i was able to show others how i was seeing things so they could know too and been unable

[angela]

I have bad feelings about Scorpious and Morning Tweet.

VOTE: Scorpious

thoughts on

scorpious and malcolmtucker both moving to pressuring geraintm at dissolution of andresvmb wagon when there was more existing pressure on you (if i am remembering correctly)?

You're always noticing patterns and movements that I don't pick up on, and I didn't really see this. But my thinking is my inactivity during the first half of the week made me LHF, and at least one of Tweetie, Scorpious and Malcom needs to be scum if Andres is town. Although I will need to go back and see where Malcom voted me because I don't recall seeing that. I think it was STD so I'd swap Malcom with STD.

did you mean scorpious here? or did you actually mean andresvmb?

[angela]

shiki do you understand

it is like,

i feel like i could somehow manage to be a -.5 win player as town all by myself here which is kinda ..?

so i guess it is just like,

have

to be right

and like morning tweet said,

even if i do manage to be that terrible here

there is still hope, not the end of world

[angela]

and also, if feel like i am being terrible,

turn me around

be the beautiful blinking neon lights that say EDGE OF WORLD

TURN SHIP AROUND

[angela]

okay sorry focusing

[angela]

Actually, starting a wagon on STD at this stage is probably pointless.

What do you think of Scorp, Pook?

I don't really know atp cuz I don't really have a good town baseline for how he plays - I'm fine with letting him live and use his mailman ability in hopes that there's actually a mafia ascetic and they decide to shoot him at night or w/e

which honestly maybe that is what pooky is doing here?

but have to squint past point of eyes closed to see town finding the mafia ascetic game

[angela]

Ngl, you seem to love the attention..

And, Galron stop being a kiss ass smdh

i mean, i am certainly not going to say that i don't like interacting with people i like who are often kind to me, shrug

like yeah i am not posting with the intention of being ignored, but i guess i don't really think that would be a fair expectation of me either, though maybe i have had that expectation of myself at times

i've said many times that other players are the reason i've continued to play mafia as the game itself is generally frustrating for me even though there are things i love about it

though maybe mostly what i love most are the glass castles like i love patterns and coincidences and how you can weave a thread between all things

but like i said have been shying away from that in service of trying not to ruin games by being horribly wrong on the basis of things not so grounded

which mostly leaves the game as not so magical

which doesn't make the people any less magical

so here i am

even if, like i said during a previous conversation of ours, maybe i should not be


earlier when you were frustrated with me not being suspected it is like,

the only time i can ever really remember town being frustrated about me not being suspected was maybe bugspray in mystery box h8? but i think that was probably more similar to ydrasse's frustration with my in slaughter hour for saying 'i'm town'

and otherwise it has been mafia

[angela]

shiki do you understand how much power you have when you are in a game?

i guess maybe i do not understand

or at least i do not understand the why

but there have definitely been times where i wished i was able to show others how i was seeing things so they could know too and been unable

Look at that last game where Pooky beat me in elo. He planted that seed after I said that I didn't want to disappoint you. That factored in to me mizzing Cakez at elo. Not to the extreme, but a bit.

And that Tweet game with the walkies where you were interpreting what I was saying to the rest of the roster.

You see things.

Scorpious here may say that I'm brown nosing, but it's not that. It's recognition of your ability.

So when I get accused of kissing up, and I'm town, I auto-scum read that. Maybe unfairly because I don't know what it looks like from that POV, but in this game, when Scorp says I'm placating you, I think Scorp either doesn't see it, or hasn't played enough with you, or I sense a negative agenda.

i guess to me that game was more about my inability to get pooky eliminated day two when i thought pooky was the very most likely mafia and said as much and even pushed a vote earlier in the day than usual, and the circumstances that allowed pooky to hammer someone, keep both pooky and ahri alive day two, then nightkill me and maneuver rest of game

like honestly the only player who ever disappoints me based on gameplay is me

it is very unfair of me to get as frustrated as i do when things happen, like my frustration with mc esther's vote that let pooky hammer there, that was very unfair of me

i failed to show anyone how i felt in a way that resonated and when i tried to lay it out after the hammer it was too late and then i was dead

i just wanted things to happen differently than they did and the mafias played well pushed game to next day and such

for the rousseau game i really do need to do a lot more of that, of interpreting, and a lot less of

this

, whatever i am doing this game

and i see a lot of ghosts

like if town it'd be completely fair for scorpious to be frustrated with me for suspecting them and to be frustrated with others 'kissing up' to use the same term, as town!scorpious would know i was wrong about suspecting scorpious, and if scorpious had been an activated innocent child or whatever i too would have been frustrated with me for becoming so distracted by things i was wrong about and such

but it is difficult as it is also a sort of frustration that is common from mafia and i am not a time traveler so it is hard for me to determine which it is

[angela]

also here, right now, it is like,

with regards to pooky's point about apathy,

like there isn't too too much notable urgency with regards to votes

which maybe should tell us something about likelihood of there being many votes on mafia,

but this line of thinking has gotten me in trouble so many times before as sometimes the mafias are just there, being mafias, not being urgent even in situations you might expect them to be

but still does it mean that it is more likely the mafias are in a grouping more like pooky's than mine?

[angela]

OKay to distill that. Are you thinking the lack of urgency means maf are happy with the VC the way it is?

happy with the way it is

or they are wary of being caught doing so

or they tried to move it unsuccessfully

or there have been multiple suspected mafias and it is difficult for them to know what to do

like if you're town right

you think scorpious is mafia right now

but scorpious pushed geraintm, and later held firm to that, when scorpious was a leading wagon, and there was more existing pressure on you

so from your perspective it would have to be because scorpious thought it would look better to vote geraintm and was banking on the claim stopping the wagon

and thus the holding firm on geraintm could make sense and such, especially if one of the other suspected is also not a mafia and would be able to move vote if necessary later on

[angela]

And I know that you are hesitant to lock in town or scum, but what you're suggesting is that the leading wagons are town I think.

nah i kinda still feel like scorpious is somewhat likely to be mafia,

i am just trying to work through all of the things, and determine if that means would be best elimination to me here,

like pieces haven't fit together in a way that feels right yet,

and also, just like the trust fall game, trying to see if i am in the way and if so to get out of it, to just let the smarter people do the thing

[angela]

I guess what I'm driving at is a play style thing. Your holding onto your vote seems like you're expecting everyone else to vote wherever so you can just analyze. I don't know how pro-town that is. For example, if we all did that, how would you develop your reads?

i mean, i know that we do not all do that, and that is why i have trended towards doing that,

like sure it would not be good if we all voted as i do but also i do not do so with the goal of everyone doing this,

it's just like the discussion i was having with malcolmtucker earlier in a way, with regards to what if everyone played like geraintm day one

for a while i have been only voting when i have decided that i would be okay with that player being eliminated at that time, which originated because it felt like 'wagons are good' sort of logic kept giving mafia opportunities and also because i counted votes as a backup moderator for bugspray in the matrix game and became very very interested in the inner workings of vote patterns for a bit

there are some significant downsides and will probably at some point revisit this, as it isn't something i have always done but it is something that was very beneficial for me for a time, at least when i was very very into counting votes and using the big magnifying glass to stare at them as long as i could, but i haven't been doing that much at all in recent games

[angela]

OKay to distill that. Are you thinking the lack of urgency means maf are happy with the VC the way it is?

idk maybe not necessarily happy with the way it is as much as happy with the way they think it will be, at least, like assuming i would not vote for a mafia and that pooky would sheep me onto that non-mafia

hmhmhm

[angela]

I want to vote, but I think the biggest wagon is scorpions who I really don't want to vote for (because claim), and Not Mafia who I don't want to vote for because I know they are solvable as the game goes on

Just because he claimed doesn't mean he can't be scum. Mailman is a very possible scum role anyways, and not very useful even if town. My vote is parked.

hm

somehow the three players i thought were the most likely to be mafias earlier

(kittytacky, malcolmtucker, scorpious)

are each starting that they are ‘locked’ into their votes here

malcolmtucker and scorpious on geraintm

and kittytacky on scorpious

anyway

i reread most of the game and just really haven’t been able to shake scum!scorpious and feel like i am ending up in mostly the same place

but maybe this VOTE: not mafia

the better vote for today

anyway will check in when able throughout the day and will be able to move my vote if necessary and such but probably not too much else

[angela]

well minus the locked into part now with regards to malcolmtucker

anyway!

[angela]

mm pretty wary about the save the dragons wagon too

and malcolmtucker moving from ‘locked into geraintm’ to ‘geraintm town because geraintm unwilling to vote scorpious and not mafia’ to following geraintm onto save the dragons kinda hmm here

[angela]

was not hammer

not mafia was on self and moved vote

[angela]

? don’t understand issue with wagon

scorpious next best to me

like how is save the dragons wagon better exactly?

[angela]

? don’t understand issue with wagon

scorpious next best to me

like how is save the dragons wagon better exactly?

I think Not_Mafia is marginally Town. I think Save The Dragons is slightly Scummy. They’ve voted for {Morning Tweet, Galron, Rathe} and honestly, do you think they’ve made any solid arguments?

hm kinda curious about what you’ve found marginally towny from not mafia

but also feel like that wouldn’t make you worry about the way the wagon formed?

[angela]

? don’t understand issue with wagon

scorpious next best to me

like how is save the dragons wagon better exactly?

Why am I scummy?

best vote stance really wasn’t because i thought you were particularly scummy as explained

can’t really rehash right now

why save the dragons over scorpious? when you said preferred scorpious vote yesterday?

[angela]

I said that I endorsed the wagon, not that I preferred it

okay why save the dragons more likely mafia

than wagon you previously endorsed?

[angela]

Told you going for NM is dumb. Scorp is scum.

yeah, sorry not mafia et al

not really entirely sure why i thought that elimination was such a good idea at that time

[angela]

VOTE: scorpious

sigh

should have just pushed this through yesterday that's entirely my fault

[angela]

Granted we were struggling towards the end but yeah, NM wasn't a great elimination. Bound to be one or two mafia on there, could be a good idea to vote within that unless another prime candidate comes up.

why would it be

a good idea

to vote within the not mafia wagon?

[angela]

Granted we were struggling towards the end but yeah, NM wasn't a great elimination. Bound to be one or two mafia on there, could be a good idea to vote within that unless another prime candidate comes up.

why would it be

a good idea

to vote within the not mafia wagon?

like do you think,

save the dragons

is a mafia?

and if not, why do you think, the wagon in general would be likely to contain mafia?

other than scorpious?

[angela]

I'm happy to evaluate Scorpious again this turn if need be having TR'd them, but I don't think their hammer is particularly weird or suspect - we were nearing the end of D1 and their vote had to go somewhere. The only possible alternative wagon by then appeared to be STD and that wasn't going anywhere. Fairly normal vote. I suppose if you're being picky Scorp's reluctance to talk about NM then dropping the hammer could be a bit weird...but again, it was getting pretty late-on in the day.

wait what

the hammer happening when discussion still happening and such

with hours on the deadline, is in fact suspect

if you want to say scorpious did so because i was suggesting scorpious as an alternative and scorpious would know that scorpious is town, sure whatever

even if you want to say scorpious hammered because not mafia claimed vanilla town and scorpious wanted to have vanilla town killed instead of potentially mailman scorpious, sure whatever

but, uh, yeah

[angela]

Why is Scorpious fundamentally more likely to be mafia now than they were before the end of D1? They dropped the hammer once it was clear the voting wasn't going elsewhere and plenty of others thought NM was a reasonable choice given it got pushed through in the end. Not that many of you seemed to confidently think NM was absolutely mafia.

they aren't really, though waiting on someone to tell us about mail stuff i guess? with regards to that

but like i said should have voted them at end of yesterday but thought process regarding was terrible

and now have more information from flips that points even more to scorpious, so

[angela]

What I could buy here would be that Scorpious only dropped the hammer instead of voting earlier because they'd have been seen as too keen to get rid of someone else and clear themselves, but I don't think their end of D1 approach was particularly bad. If faced with confirming a hammer near the end of a turn when no alternative was being put forward, how many would have acted differently?

do you not think

relevant discussion

was happening at the time scorpious hammered?

[angela]

Hours on the deadline is not a long time. It was the weekend, I imagine plenty of us were busy, I wasn't going to be back to change my own vote eg and had committed by then. Who else would have gone as an alternative? If Scorpious has not particularly suspected STD, would that be a sensible push? And if you think it would've been wiser to eliminate STD instead of NM, why are you not pushing them at the moment?

where have i said, it would have been wiser to eliminate save the dragons? i said i thought scorpious was the most likely mafia yesterday, but pushed for not mafia elimination anyway as i felt like, slots i heavily suspected were being strange around not mafia (which i either misinterpreted its meaning to not mafia's alignment or! completely misinterpreted the strangeness etc) and i was feeling like, not believing in myself with regards to being right about things

[angela]

Why is Scorpious fundamentally more likely to be mafia now than they were before the end of D1? They dropped the hammer once it was clear the voting wasn't going elsewhere and plenty of others thought NM was a reasonable choice given it got pushed through in the end. Not that many of you seemed to confidently think NM was absolutely mafia.

they aren't really, though waiting on someone to tell us about mail stuff i guess? with regards to that

but like i said should have voted them at end of yesterday but thought process regarding was terrible

and now have more information from flips that points even more to scorpious, so

How does the overnight info point more to Scorpious? I'm not sure it does.

not mafia being town makes scorpious actions at end of day more suspicious

and pooky being nightkilled instead of me points towards scorpious

as pooky was pointed in other directions and i was pointed towards scorpious

and dying galvanizes pooky's reads

[angela]

Told you going for NM is dumb. Scorp is scum.

Scummy AF and feels like TMI..

I think sorta makes sense that he doesn't want to vote a null read over 2 scum reads but being ok with d1 a no lim over a potentially scum slot that could harm town is being ass play.


I also 2nd that Tucker pushing Gera all day and then they are on the same wagon together is iffy

Where did I say I was alright with a no lim, I said no lim was dumb before. Christ.

I will only jump off Scorpius if otherwise there's no lim.

Don't use the lord's name in vain. Especially when you are wrong.

doesn't that mean that

kittytacky would only leave your wagon to vote for someone else to prevent no elimination if necessary

not that kittytacky was alright with no elimination?

[angela]

morning tweet wanted NM all day yesterday, it's a place to start

is this

even true?

didn't pooky accuse morning tweet of forgetting about her not mafia push at one point?

like she had expressed that she wanted not mafia and then

not mafia was not present in morning tweet's scumreads?

[angela]

Told you going for NM is dumb. Scorp is scum.

Scummy AF and feels like TMI..

I think sorta makes sense that he doesn't want to vote a null read over 2 scum reads but being ok with d1 a no lim over a potentially scum slot that could harm town is being ass play.


I also 2nd that Tucker pushing Gera all day and then they are on the same wagon together is iffy

Where did I say I was alright with a no lim, I said no lim was dumb before. Christ.

I will only jump off Scorpius if otherwise there's no lim.

Don't use the lord's name in vain. Especially when you are wrong.

doesn't that mean that

kittytacky would only leave your wagon to vote for someone else to prevent no elimination if necessary

not that kittytacky was alright with no elimination?

I disagree.. Why are you defending this?

because i feel pretty certain

that you are misunderstanding

what kittytacky was saying

[angela]

Why is Scorpious fundamentally more likely to be mafia now than they were before the end of D1? They dropped the hammer once it was clear the voting wasn't going elsewhere and plenty of others thought NM was a reasonable choice given it got pushed through in the end. Not that many of you seemed to confidently think NM was absolutely mafia.

they aren't really, though waiting on someone to tell us about mail stuff i guess? with regards to that

but like i said should have voted them at end of yesterday but thought process regarding was terrible

and now have more information from flips that points even more to scorpious, so

How does the overnight info point more to Scorpious? I'm not sure it does.

not mafia being town makes scorpious actions at end of day more suspicious

and pooky being nightkilled instead of me points towards scorpious

as pooky was pointed in other directions and i was pointed towards scorpious

and dying galvanizes pooky's reads

this page is really making a case for you and kitty to be a team..

For you to dismiss me so quickly. Especially since I sent YOU my message last night..

lol

[angela]

................................................................................................

[angela]

well i didn't get it so

[angela]

Especially since I sent YOU my message last night..

would very much like to know what it said though!!!!

[angela]

(if existed et cetera)

rihanna winking gif

[angela]

VOTE: angela

sigh going to be kinda sad if andresvmb v. scorpious was mafia/mafia

and the about face with regards to eachother at one point

doesn't make it completely improbable

anyway scorpious is like 99% lying here

and probably killed pooky partly to push mafia ascetic narrative or whatever

i'm towntowntown

[angela]

I haven’t appreciated how Scorpious has approached the game so far, but I have a hard time seeing how they’re straight up lying about sending angela a message.

I re-read some of what Scorpious’ has been posting. I would argue they’re not all that likely to be Scum to be honest. Not the greatest player perhaps, but probably not Scum. I also really didn’t like how angela was speaking about Not_Mafia towards the end of the day yesterday, covertly trying to dissuade me from saving Not_Mafia. So I’m beginning to think I’m being fooled by angela, and the slot deserves some pressure.

@Scorpious, what did your message say?

so you are, what, pushing the mafia ascetic narrative then? and it just so happens to be me? and i nightkilled pooky? like

........

i was trying to push votes between not mafia and scorpious

very openly

not trying to dissuade votes on players other than not mafia entirely

[angela]

VOTE: angela

sigh going to be kinda sad if andresvmb v. scorpious was mafia/mafia

and the about face with regards to eachother at one point

doesn't make it completely improbable

anyway scorpious is like 99% lying here

and probably killed pooky partly to push mafia ascetic narrative or whatever

i'm towntowntown

The fact that you’ve defaulted to arguing that Scorpious and I were doing theater is a major head scratcher. I have engaged in distancing and theater before, but I have a hard time believing you immediately assume I’m Scum with Scorpious as Town (instead of, say, just wrong?).

i didn't default i suggested that i am thinking about the possibility

the fact that you think i'm possibly scum here is pretty ??? to me

[angela]

VOTE: angela

sigh going to be kinda sad if andresvmb v. scorpious was mafia/mafia

and the about face with regards to eachother at one point

doesn't make it completely improbable

anyway scorpious is like 99% lying here

and probably killed pooky partly to push mafia ascetic narrative or whatever

i'm towntowntown

The fact that you’ve defaulted to arguing that Scorpious and I were doing theater is a major head scratcher. I have engaged in distancing and theater before, but I have a hard time believing you immediately assume I’m Scum with Scorpious as Town (instead of, say, just wrong?).

i didn't default i suggested that i am thinking about the possibility

the fact that you think i'm possibly scum here is pretty ??? to me

like why wouldn't scum!me just push through scorpious?????????

[angela]

it's completely nonsensical

[angela]

Does anybody really think Mailman is the first role Scum use to fake claim? Are you serious?

i mean, not normally, but that potentially makes it beneficial for them to do so,

and! scorpious has made strange claims before

and! it makes more sense than other narratives

[angela]

Either the role is accurate, or they’ve engaged in the dumbest fake claim ever. I don’t necessarily think Scorpious is the best player in the game. But do you really think they boxed themselves into a situation where they had to send a message and didn’t have the capability to do so? That just seems way too dumb.

you know they could just be trying to frame me, the recipient, right?

[angela]

Either the role is accurate, or they’ve engaged in the dumbest fake claim ever. I don’t necessarily think Scorpious is the best player in the game. But do you really think they boxed themselves into a situation where they had to send a message and didn’t have the capability to do so? That just seems way too dumb.

you know they could just be trying to frame me, the recipient, right?

and the claim already worked!!!!!! that's the part you're missing

scorpious is alive right now

which is my fault yes

but scorpious is alive and yeah

[angela]

They’re being set up, and not only are Kitty and you encouraging it with no skepticism, but now you’re arguing I’m partnered with Scorpious? Why don’t you go back and read at our exchanges and point to how it’s theater then. If that’s what you’re going to argue.

i am going to argue

that scorpious is a mafia

and that we should all vote scorpious

why do you need to also be a mafia

for scorpious to be a mafia?

[angela]

Either the role is accurate, or they’ve engaged in the dumbest fake claim ever. I don’t necessarily think Scorpious is the best player in the game. But do you really think they boxed themselves into a situation where they had to send a message and didn’t have the capability to do so? That just seems way too dumb.

you know they could just be trying to frame me, the recipient, right?

C’mon this is absurd. They frame you, you flip Town, they get executed next most likely. They do not set it up that way in advance. Which is what you’re arguing. They had to claim mailman under pressure in D1. Like this is clearly not a strategy to win the game. Where’s your skepticism?

they have already bought an extra day from the claim due to my brain worms

why would you think mafia trying to buy a second extra day

would not be beneficial to the mafia?

[angela]

VOTE: angela

sigh going to be kinda sad if andresvmb v. scorpious was mafia/mafia

and the about face with regards to eachother at one point

doesn't make it completely improbable

anyway scorpious is like 99% lying here

and probably killed pooky partly to push mafia ascetic narrative or whatever

i'm towntowntown

What where you trying to insinuate with this then? Why don’t you help me out?

already said i was saying that i was considering the possibility not saying 'oh this must be it!' or anything

[angela]

Scorpious doesn’t lie about being a mailman unless they’re playing way sub-optimally. In my mind, they’re either being set up (with a block), or you’re Ascetic angela, and Scum. Either way, Scorpious is a horrendous execution unless you can convincingly argue why Scum would lie about being a mailman. Have you seen that before? D1?

and you think ascetic mafia me kills pooky (who mentioned the ascetic) and not the mailman that could target me? after not simply pushing through the elimination on said mailman yesterday? when i could and should have?

[angela]

Either the role is accurate, or they’ve engaged in the dumbest fake claim ever. I don’t necessarily think Scorpious is the best player in the game. But do you really think they boxed themselves into a situation where they had to send a message and didn’t have the capability to do so? That just seems way too dumb.

We can 1 for 1 Scorpius and Angela, one has to be lying.

Good night.

no please it's scorpious do not give them momentum to say it's one of us/either order et cetera

important we do not waste another elimination already wasted one due to me being terrible

[angela]

Either way, Scorpious is a horrendous execution unless you can convincingly argue why Scum would lie about being a mailman.

scorpious is a mafia because scorpious is lying about the mailman; it does not matter why

[angela]

Either the role is accurate, or they’ve engaged in the dumbest fake claim ever. I don’t necessarily think Scorpious is the best player in the game. But do you really think they boxed themselves into a situation where they had to send a message and didn’t have the capability to do so? That just seems way too dumb.

you know they could just be trying to frame me, the recipient, right?

C’mon this is absurd. They frame you, you flip Town, they get executed next most likely. They do not set it up that way in advance. Which is what you’re arguing. They had to claim mailman under pressure in D1. Like this is clearly not a strategy to win the game. Where’s your skepticism?

they have already bought an extra day from the claim due to my brain worms

why would you think mafia trying to buy a second extra day

would not be beneficial to the mafia?

Sigh. Scum don’t buy extra days in this way c’mon. There’s absolutely no guarantee at all that mailman as a claim buys you any additional time, because it’s so useless as a role in a vacuum. I have never seen it employed as a fake claim to save a Scum. It’s a useless role the vast majority of the time.

yes they do

all of the time

it's one of the best ways to win as mafia

look at game the mafia team won scummy for last year with unlikely day one fake claim

[angela]

Granted we were struggling towards the end but yeah, NM wasn't a great elimination. Bound to be one or two mafia on there, could be a good idea to vote within that unless another prime candidate comes up.

why would it be

a good idea

to vote within the not mafia wagon?

And how is this a serious question?

i meant the wagon as a whole instead of specific players on that wagon, as you can tell from my followup clarification to it

[angela]

Either the role is accurate, or they’ve engaged in the dumbest fake claim ever. I don’t necessarily think Scorpious is the best player in the game. But do you really think they boxed themselves into a situation where they had to send a message and didn’t have the capability to do so? That just seems way too dumb.

you know they could just be trying to frame me, the recipient, right?

C’mon this is absurd. They frame you, you flip Town, they get executed next most likely. They do not set it up that way in advance. Which is what you’re arguing. They had to claim mailman under pressure in D1. Like this is clearly not a strategy to win the game. Where’s your skepticism?

they have already bought an extra day from the claim due to my brain worms

why would you think mafia trying to buy a second extra day

would not be beneficial to the mafia?

Sigh. Scum don’t buy extra days in this way c’mon. There’s absolutely no guarantee at all that mailman as a claim buys you any additional time, because it’s so useless as a role in a vacuum. I have never seen it employed as a fake claim to save a Scum. It’s a useless role the vast majority of the time.

yes they do

all of the time

it's one of the best ways to win as mafia

look at game the mafia team won scummy for last year with unlikely day one fake claim

What was the claim?

i don't remember exactly; i think it was one of those something smart pick x/y games, so it was one of the roles within the setup but not one you would expect but one that they just used to buy days until eventually eliminated the slot and getting credit for voting it,

[angela]

Besides I have reason to suspect this setup has a scum mailman. Trust me on this.

Trust me is not a reason.. Why.. What is your reasoning?

i trust kittytacky

[angela]

Malcolm is Town. One of angela/Kitty/Save The Dragons can die today as far as I’m concerned so far.

@Nero Cain, Rathe I want to see some comments from you I’m interested in your perspectives.

wait

why is malcolmtucker town?

scorpious is a mafia and lying

why would a team of me/kittytacky/x push this?

this entire thing continues to be nonsensical

[angela]

look at game the mafia team won scummy for last year with unlikely day one fake claim

could you be anymore vague here? point out on specific.. please

i literally told you what game it was, it won the scummy for mafia team play last year, i can go look it up later if you really need it but it would probably be easier for you to find it then for me right now

[angela]

Besides I have reason to suspect this setup has a scum mailman. Trust me on this.

Trust me is not a reason.. Why.. What is your reasoning?

i trust kittytacky

All of all of your posts,based on the shortness of it. The total commitment of it,and backing questionable content so definetivly.
This is the scummiest post you have made this game..

Why do you trust them? because they said to?

yes

why shouldn't i?

[angela]

I'm noticing a total departure from the D1 Angela to D2 Angela, It's like the independent solver that was running the game is resorting to trusting one of the scummiest players this game..

VOTE: Anglea

why would mafia!me do that exactly?

if you think i can just be independent solver as mafia et cetera, why wouldn't i just continue to do that,

like the narrative doesn't make any sense,

change in my behaviour is obviously due to change in circumstances, and you're very very likely mafia,

[angela]

I would also think you would have opened the Day with the message I sent..

Why didn't you?

????????????????????????????????????

the message i already said i didn't get?

the message which probably never existed?

[angela]

I would also think you would have opened the Day with the message I sent..

Why didn't you?

????????????????????????????????????

the message i already said i didn't get?

the message which probably never existed?

Again, open minded Angela just defaulting that I "never sent" it.

I must have been blocked

again, i am not defaulting, just weighing the possibilities and finding that one most likely, thus the probably

[angela]

I would also think you would have opened the Day with the message I sent..

Why didn't you?

????????????????????????????????????

the message i already said i didn't get?

the message which probably never existed?

Again, open minded Angela just defaulting that I "never sent" it.

I must have been blocked

again, i am not defaulting, just weighing the possibilities and finding that one most likely, thus the probably

and!!!!!! if you think i am mafia

why would you think you were blocked

instead of me lying about it???????

[angela]

I would also think you would have opened the Day with the message I sent..

Why didn't you?

????????????????????????????????????

the message i already said i didn't get?

the message which probably never existed?

Again, open minded Angela just defaulting that I "never sent" it.

I must have been blocked

again, i am not defaulting, just weighing the possibilities and finding that one most likely, thus the probably

yesterday you would have asked many questions, now you're just. "the message probably never existed".

one of two things happend. I was blocked, or you are just playing stupid.

because the message probably never existed

that's why

i am just 'the message probably never existed'

like it's not more complicated than that

[angela]

Kitty being so locked on me screams TMI..

you wont even acknowledge that.. why?

because i trust kittytacky, as i already said

[angela]

That would be both really silly and risky from them since it could've resulted in an elimination, very unlikely, and the suggestion here seems a bit strange. Do you really believe this at all?

i believe it is possible

and i believe that i would be sad if it were the case, yes

[angela]

i think i believe the scorpius claim and that he was just likely blocked or something

it is possible that scorpious was role blocked, this just does not seem all that likely to me

like why would scorpious even target me? when i was pretty likely nightkill et cetera

[angela]

That would be both really silly and risky from them since it could've resulted in an elimination, very unlikely, and the suggestion here seems a bit strange. Do you really believe this at all?

i believe it is possible

and i believe that i would be sad if it were the case, yes

I really don't see how it's possible to be honest. Why would they go all out at each other and risk one of them being eliminated? All it takes is a RP to catch the other and it's potentially a worthless sacrifice. Your play was much more logic-driven than this on D1.

i've seen mafia do this, like my logic here isn't that this is the case, it's that it is possibly the case, which is generally what my play always is, not really sure what difference you're seeing there

[angela]

Angela, again, you voted NM yourself, despite wanting Scorpious out. Similarly Scorpious eliminated MM once it was clear we had no alternative, towards the end of the turn. What's the major difference here?

to be cheeky, the major difference is that i am town

[angela]

i think i believe the scorpius claim and that he was just likely blocked or something

it is possible that scorpious was role blocked, this just does not seem all that likely to me

like why would scorpious even target me? when i was pretty likely nightkill et cetera

ok, any TI is going to watch you.So no you are not the "pretty likely kill".

Why would I not target the most "influential" players thus far. I mean you had Galron sucking up to you when you were considering voting them.

what does it matter whether or not the player is 'influential'? like why does that make someone a better mailman target?

[angela]

Angela, again, you voted NM yourself, despite wanting Scorpious out. Similarly Scorpious eliminated MM once it was clear we had no alternative, towards the end of the turn. What's the major difference here?

to be cheeky, the major difference is that i am town

again, total departure from D1 Angela.

i don't understand why you're all pushing this narrative

of my play changing being alignment indicative

like it's because i feel like this is very likely now,

no one has said anything that has made me feel like this is not very likely, so

[angela]

Malcolm is Town. One of angela/Kitty/Save The Dragons can die today as far as I’m concerned so far.

@Nero Cain, Rathe I want to see some comments from you I’m interested in your perspectives.

wait

why is malcolmtucker town?

scorpious is a mafia and lying

why would a team of me/kittytacky/x push this?

this entire thing continues to be nonsensical

I’m not shutting my brain down and arguing that there’s no chance in hell that Scorpious isn’t Scum. It’s possible. Their focus has been strange, and Pooky and I rightly bashed it (as did you). But your insistence that they’re lying without considering that perhaps they’re being set up seems weird to me.

Just my gut is telling me that mailman is a bad fake claim. It is. You could argue it’s a quirky fake claim that buys you time if implemented properly. But long-term, it’s difficult to maintain as Scum because it’s confirmable. What I assumed would happen if Scorpious was Scum is that they would be plenty able to send a message, and that this would let them pocket players. I certainly didn’t immediately assume they would be straight up lying (like I said, extremely hard to maintain long-term). So yeah, I really didn’t expect that they would claim to have sent a message, and then that the message would not have arrived at their destination. Because it sets up a 1v1 that is very much tilted against them. It’s very easy to assume that well, they lied to stay alive, they’re lying about their message, so they need to die.

I low-key also suspect that if they wanted to establish a 1v1, they would have picked me funny enough. Or a player that they could have more easily defeated in a 1v1. As a choice angela, based on how D1, you feel like a terrible choice.

i did consider this though

but if so it's that they are being setup by roleblocker not by kittytacky,

and all of it just doesn't feel as likely to me as scorpious being a mafia

you don't need to maintain a fakeclaim as mafia, you have partners, i will try not to just ramble about theory so much today but buying a day, as many times as you can, is what you're aiming to do, pooky as mafia does that constantly and is very very good at it,

[angela]

D1 angela was pretty town tho

day two angela is also

i am town
kittytacky is town

go from there

[angela]

D1 angela was pretty town tho

day two angela is also

i am town
kittytacky is town

go from there

you forgot Scorpious is scum..

go from there

no that is where i end up

not where i start

[angela]

D1 angela was pretty town tho

day two angela is also

i am town
kittytacky is town

go from there

you forgot Scorpious is scum..

go from there

no that is where i end up

not where i start

i am trying to help others get to where we should be

like if you're town, i am town, kittytacky is town,

so you were roleblocked, is the answer if you are town,

but like i said doesn't seem as likely to me right now

[angela]

You’re refuting my argument with nonsense which makes me think I’m onto something. Of course I don’t know if Kitty is the Roleblocker that potentially is setting Scorpious up. That idea is so random.

Why is Scorpious Scum? Outside of the mechanical argument which really you’re not going to convince me about I don’t think. What about their behavior D1, in your estimation, points to them as Scum?

And you DO have to maintain a fake claim. If we execute Scum, and they flip Mailman, do you think Scorpious survives more than a day after that? Answer honestly. And I’m not Pooky, and I’m not rambling. I’m thinking critically. The first thing you’ve been arguing the minute you saw that Scorpious claimed to have sent you a message is that they were lying and Scum. You didn’t stop to consider the alternatives. That just screamed to me as being done in bad faith. Because Scorpious’ post, given how widely TR you have been angela, would have struck me as bizarre. Surely you would have wanted to lay out what it is that could be happening, and asking for other opinions. But you didn’t, and I don’t get it.

i think we are not understanding eachother as i do not think kitty is potentially a roleblocker or anything like that,

scorpious is scum because has played like a mafia and the claim doesn't check out,

? you think scorpious would claim a different mafia's mailman ability rather than their own? i was saying that i am trying not to ramble, not that you were rambling,

like i think it is more likely that scorpious is lying, did i come to that decision quickly? yeah, i thought scorpious was a pretty likely mafia anyway and the claim didn't check out,

it's possible they were roleblocked; why is it more likely to you that scorpious was roleblocked? as to me that is the only consideration

scorpious is mafia

or!

scorpious was roleblocked

why do you think it is more likely that scorpious was roleblocked?

that's what it comes down to

[angela]

I think angela’s conviction that Kitty is Town is also just completely bizarre. Maybe you could say that you think Kitty is Lean Town or something an explain why. But can anyone tell me why there’s so much conviction behind that read? I don’t get that at all. I certainly don’t agree with it.

can you think

of any other possible explanations

for this!!!!!

okay cool let's agree with it then

[angela]

Who else do you scum read, angie?

i am in too much of an excited state to like properly weigh out the

if scorpious mafia

and

if scorpious roleblocked worlds

sorry

will try to do so later

[angela]

that's not really what I was asking...

hm

i guess i wouldn't really know how else to build the scum worlds from here

as it has to be one of the above

so like sure there have been lots of other things i've noted but i am not sure how well they fit into how things are now and such

so when i am calmer i will try to look over things and build

[angela]

if scorpious roleblocked

guess i am also interested in

why anyone who thinks this is more likely than scorpious being mafia, thinks this

and also who those who feel that way think are the most likely mafias then

okay will return later

[angela]

mmmmmmm

i am getting very very paranoid about something

and need assistance

and really wish pooky were here to ask

[angela]

This is why I hate alts.

would love to have a look at the smalles bit of meta, but with Angela it is not possible.

I wanted to see if my thoughts of scum hiding in an almost unreadable iso based on there just being so much to sift,thorugh but I cannot confirm anything.

anahit, chavela, danica, drusilla, inutile, madeline, rousseau, shiki, team rocket queen, thana, tracy flick, ulyana

here are most(?) of the accounts i have played games on if you actually want to look;

at least the ones that first came to mind though likely missing some notable past selfs

if not, no, i do not think that would be a very accurate description of my play as mafia

[angela]

Kitty and Angela..

I'd like these answers before Gera shows.

What are your thoughts on that slot ?CURRENTLY..

confused by why you asked for this before geraintm shows when i had just indicated that i would be away for a while and kittytacky previously said goodnight

i could see geraintm in either of the worlds right now but geraintm's day one didn't feel particularly scummy to me, as i said previously, just frustrating

[angela]

See, too me , that’s absurd…

But that’s one meaningless opinion..

But also. Thank you for doing that.

if we were able to change the name of our accounts i would have very few, as outside of very rare cases i make no attempt to disguise myself or anything,

it isn't a gameplay relevant thing for me generally

you're welcome; i do not mind at all, like i said, the purpose isn't to hide myself

[angela]

You know why this is important right? The options for executions yesterday if we’re being honest for a second were {geraintm, Scorpious, Save The Dragons, Not_Mafia}. Not_Mafia was ultimately executed and flipped Town, and there was some visible resistance to executing Save The Dragons. Scorpious is the easiest choice for mis-execution amongst the players that gathered multiple votes yesterday, if they’re actually Town.

I think angela’s conviction that Kitty is Town is also just completely bizarre. Maybe you could say that you think Kitty is Lean Town or something an explain why. But can anyone tell me why there’s so much conviction behind that read?

I don’t get that at all. I certainly don’t agree with it.

As has been said, this also doesn't chime with Angela in yesterday's turn who seemed very open-minded.

I'm not really understanding the d1 angela is different from d2 angela.

I don't see why are the suddenly so filled with conviction re Scorpious mafia and Kitty town. Feels new and unnatural.

Like, IDK how Kitty and Angela could be so bent on me right now and not even give the Gera slot a second look. We let them live based on their insiatance of content on D2.. We're still waiting.. Thats not suspicious in itself, I get it people have lives, but it was n't even mentioned by either of them..

Kitty came in full send and our ever analytical Angela is just like "yeah, I trust that"

Feels real dirty to me..

already more or less explained this here:

I think angela’s conviction that Kitty is Town is also just completely bizarre. Maybe you could say that you think Kitty is Lean Town or something an explain why. But can anyone tell me why there’s so much conviction behind that read? I don’t get that at all. I certainly don’t agree with it.

can you think

of any other possible explanations

for this!!!!!

okay cool let's agree with it then

but also this is regarding what i am now very paranoid about, so

[angela]

? don’t understand issue with wagon

scorpious next best to me

like how is save the dragons wagon better exactly?

In light of Angela saying Scorpious hammered at the wrong time, this just feels like a really weird post by comparison.

There was a bit of discussion going on but Angela was obviously not keen on an STD wagon and a Scorpious vote was not going to happen just hours before we reached the deadline, both because some of us were busy and wouldn't be back by then, but also because the majority just didn't think it was a particularly good wagon to go for or stick with.

Angela's argument is we needed to spend more time discussing and the elimination was abrupt but that doesn't chime with this post at all, where they seem settled on the wagon. If I was reluctant to hammer in Scorpious' position, and wanted to gauge the thoughts of an active townie, this would seem like a good consensus to go for it.

What else were we particularly missing re discussion at this point? No viable wagon was being proposed other than NM, even if it was kinda rubbish.

scorpious hammered at a time when i was interacting with not mafia

who if town, would probably be about to be flipped, yes?

and thus you want as much information from not mafia

as possible

which is very much not what occurred

but scorpious is saying hammer was unintentional, so

also not mafia had just claimed vanilla town, and there seemed to be no time given for us to think about the ramifications of that

as i was trying to do while talking to not mafia

but i was only barely present due to non game related things so that was partly on me too

and i probably should have unvoted to have that conversation

as it was e-1

i don't really understand how you think that would just be a clean hammer like it makes perfect sense to you

[angela]

also don't really understand your insistence that scorpious would not have been a viable wagon there,

but not really sure what to make of that

[angela]

mmmmmmm

i am getting very very paranoid about something

and need assistance

and really wish pooky were here to ask

is nero cain

or someone else with significant normal queue experience

who is not scorpious

around?

[angela]

So, scrub my previous post about leaning town on Angela, that is DEF not what i think now.

i said i was wary of the save the dragons wagon - not of save the dragons

and i already otherwise explained why i thought the way i did regarding not mafia

which just makes me terrible at the game not scum

shrug

[angela]

VOTE: angela

also geraintm if scorpious wasn’t roleblocked

then scorpious is a mafia

don’t really understand why the votes would take precedence over that

though there’s something to looking at the players who followed me other than pooky of course

and maybe what that potentially means for save the dragons

still need to look at this more myself

[angela]

sorry did not mean to quote the galron post there - or rather well i did but then i was thinking about the post before still

anyway re: galron vote

let’s maybe talk to me about worries here because

i am town, and eliminating me just compounds yesterdays problem i caused it does not solve it in anyway

[angela]

When it gets dark I tow your heart away.

illuminate the nos on their vacancy signs

[angela]

i don’t really know what to do here and am still in need of assistance

and it just feels like

yeah i obviously played bad i know this but i am still town

like it makes very little sense for me to steer the wagon onto not mafia instead of steering it onto scorpious if i was mafia here

and yet some of you are saying that was scummy of me

and it is like,

eliminating me does nothing but make it even less likely we win

i don’t need to be punished for being terrible - already was by yesterday’s flip, lost elimination and such; and if you really feel the need to you can tell me how bad of a play it was to prioritize surrounding play or to be in a position to be sheeped and be wrong or to be sheeped while not even believing in myself enough to vote my strongest scumread

like the way people are viewing the game right now is not correct and i know that

not ‘i think that’

but i know that

[angela]

So, scrub my previous post about leaning town on Angela, that is DEF not what i think now.

i said i was wary of the save the dragons wagon - not of save the dragons

and i already otherwise explained why i thought the way i did regarding not mafia

which just makes me terrible at the game not scum

shrug

thats fair, i misread your post. i take back that comment about you being wary of Save the dragon

i looked back at your posts previous to 1258 and i cant work out your expressing suspicions previous about Not Mafia

i was mostly wary of other slots i was suspicious of behaviors towards not mafia and of those pooky felt were likely mafias not mafia seemed the most likely to me based on this and i was feeling unsure of myself regarding scorpious in that moment and the save the dragons voters worried me so not mafia felt like the best wagon to me at that time - which was probably a bad process with a predictably bad result

but that was most of my thinking at the time after trying to make everything fit together better to be more sure of other options and not being entirely successful

[angela]

do you know a lot about normal queue games?

[angela]

Either the role is accurate, or they’ve engaged in the dumbest fake claim ever. I don’t necessarily think Scorpious is the best player in the game. But do you really think they boxed themselves into a situation where they had to send a message and didn’t have the capability to do so? That just seems way too dumb.

you know they could just be trying to frame me, the recipient, right?

C’mon this is absurd. They frame you, you flip Town, they get executed next most likely. They do not set it up that way in advance. Which is what you’re arguing. They had to claim mailman under pressure in D1. Like this is clearly not a strategy to win the game. Where’s your skepticism?

they have already bought an extra day from the claim due to my brain worms

why would you think mafia trying to buy a second extra day

would not be beneficial to the mafia?

Sigh. Scum don’t buy extra days in this way c’mon. There’s absolutely no guarantee at all that mailman as a claim buys you any additional time, because it’s so useless as a role in a vacuum. I have never seen it employed as a fake claim to save a Scum. It’s a useless role the vast majority of the time.

He once claimed bulletproof cop. I wouldn't put it past him to make bizarre claims.

Besides, angela has little reason to lie about a mailman message if she is scum either! Because she will just get killed the next day is Scorp is town. And angela is way more townie to me than Scorp. I'm parked on Scorp still.

VOTE: Kitty

You are not scum hunting an any way. You're cases on me is ahem: My reaction to your over reaction and a calim I made in a past game. And you have specifically stated you have no plans to hunt any further..

Who's my team then?

let's expand ourselves a little,enough of this TMI crap.

i am probably going to post what i know after i am able to talk to nero cain or someone else knowledgeable about roles

but kittytacky is either town or one of the normal roles is completely useless

[angela]

Either the role is accurate, or they’ve engaged in the dumbest fake claim ever. I don’t necessarily think Scorpious is the best player in the game. But do you really think they boxed themselves into a situation where they had to send a message and didn’t have the capability to do so? That just seems way too dumb.

you know they could just be trying to frame me, the recipient, right?

C’mon this is absurd. They frame you, you flip Town, they get executed next most likely. They do not set it up that way in advance. Which is what you’re arguing. They had to claim mailman under pressure in D1. Like this is clearly not a strategy to win the game. Where’s your skepticism?

they have already bought an extra day from the claim due to my brain worms

why would you think mafia trying to buy a second extra day

would not be beneficial to the mafia?

Sigh. Scum don’t buy extra days in this way c’mon. There’s absolutely no guarantee at all that mailman as a claim buys you any additional time, because it’s so useless as a role in a vacuum. I have never seen it employed as a fake claim to save a Scum. It’s a useless role the vast majority of the time.

He once claimed bulletproof cop. I wouldn't put it past him to make bizarre claims.

Besides, angela has little reason to lie about a mailman message if she is scum either! Because she will just get killed the next day is Scorp is town. And angela is way more townie to me than Scorp. I'm parked on Scorp still.

VOTE: Kitty

You are not scum hunting an any way. You're cases on me is ahem: My reaction to your over reaction and a calim I made in a past game. And you have specifically stated you have no plans to hunt any further..

Who's my team then?

let's expand ourselves a little,enough of this TMI crap.

i am probably going to post what i know after i am able to talk to nero cain or someone else knowledgeable about roles

but kittytacky is either town or one of the normal roles is completely useless

worse or better than useless depending on situation actually but would have to be treated as useless to avoid the extremely negative side

but i assume that would not be the case and that kittytacky is simply town

[angela]

but i assume that would not be the case and that kittytacky is simply town

of course you would.

because you "trust" them.. smh

???

so you think it’s likely that one of the potential normal roles would have to be treated as non-functional?

[angela]

whatever guess i will simply ask you and then wait for confirmation from others

is there a way to tell the difference between

a message sent by a friendly neighbour

and a message sent by a mailman made to look like a friendly neighbour message

?

[angela]

whatever guess i will simply ask you and then wait for confirmation from others

is there a way to tell the difference between

a message sent by a friendly neighbour

and a message sent by a mailman made to look like a friendly neighbour message

?

Are you saying you got it?

i got what seemed to be a friendly neighbour message from kittytacky

nothing resembling the message you claimed to have sent

[angela]

i am asking if there is a way

to tell the difference between those two things

and i assume there would have to be

because otherwise friendly neighbour is a useless role

[angela]

I'm very confused right now. I'm sorry.

i’m just trying to ask

if there’s a way to tell the difference between

a mailman message made to look like friendly neighbour

and

a friendly neighbour message

the rest we can figure out after

[angela]

Either the role is accurate, or they’ve engaged in the dumbest fake claim ever. I don’t necessarily think Scorpious is the best player in the game. But do you really think they boxed themselves into a situation where they had to send a message and didn’t have the capability to do so? That just seems way too dumb.

you know they could just be trying to frame me, the recipient, right?

C’mon this is absurd. They frame you, you flip Town, they get executed next most likely. They do not set it up that way in advance. Which is what you’re arguing. They had to claim mailman under pressure in D1. Like this is clearly not a strategy to win the game. Where’s your skepticism?

they have already bought an extra day from the claim due to my brain worms

why would you think mafia trying to buy a second extra day

would not be beneficial to the mafia?

Sigh. Scum don’t buy extra days in this way c’mon. There’s absolutely no guarantee at all that mailman as a claim buys you any additional time, because it’s so useless as a role in a vacuum. I have never seen it employed as a fake claim to save a Scum. It’s a useless role the vast majority of the time.

He once claimed bulletproof cop. I wouldn't put it past him to make bizarre claims.

Besides, angela has little reason to lie about a mailman message if she is scum either! Because she will just get killed the next day is Scorp is town. And angela is way more townie to me than Scorp. I'm parked on Scorp still.

VOTE: Kitty

You are not scum hunting an any way. You're cases on me is ahem: My reaction to your over reaction and a calim I made in a past game. And you have specifically stated you have no plans to hunt any further..

Who's my team then?

let's expand ourselves a little,enough of this TMI crap.

Misrep. What overreaction? You claimed I overreacted but I don't see how. I dislike your shade-throwing attempts and how you acted like your mailman claim made you more likely to be town. D1 didn't have many scummy people so I pushed a scumlean (you) but your reaction sealed it. But that point is moot since I believe angela when she said she didn't get a mailman message.

STD is probably on your team if they're scum (likely), but who's the third I'm not sure.

i am asking if there is a way

to tell the difference between those two things

and i assume there would have to be

because otherwise friendly neighbour is a useless role

Ah shit you outed me, time to claim then. I am a Friendly Neighbor, and I sent my message to angela this night. That's what the "reason to believe there's a mafia mailman" was, the roles are similar enough that I think there might be a "mirror" on the other team. But that's subject to mod WIFOM.

It should be possible to tell! It should say "you got a message from a friendly neighbor" or something instead of "you got a message from a mailman".

Would it be mod interference to confirm this?

was getting paranoid about inability to tell and needed assistance with so felt like had to out it

it does not; no indication of sender or role of sender

[angela]

What color was the text? And I think you can ask the mod for clarification, FN messages are meant to be a mod confirmation.

idk how descriptive i can be of it before it falls under private communications rule and don’t want to skirt line

[angela]

Since when do neighbors send messages?

And why do you need mod confirmation? My role PM explicitly sates what happens when I send a message.

friendly neighbour

not neighbour

[angela]

Since when do neighbors send messages?

And why do you need mod confirmation? My role PM explicitly sates what happens when I send a message.

friendly neighbour

not neighbour

It doesnt matter, neighbors DONT send messages..

friendly neighbours do? the wiki says they do at least

[angela]

Since when do neighbors send messages?

And why do you need mod confirmation? My role PM explicitly sates what happens when I send a message.

friendly neighbour

not neighbour

It doesnt matter, neighbors DONT send messages..

friendly neighbours do? the wiki says they do at least

I just read it too, so what did you get as a message?

I never even knew this role existed,and now I'm questioning how mnay town messngers we have..

what appears to be a friendly neighbour message from kittytacky

it's not like i can quote it or anything

[angela]

It's just super convenient that the person that is latched on to me like a tick happens to have the same type of role as I claimed..

do you not think

that might be part of why they are latched on to you?

[angela]

It's just super convenient that the person that is latched on to me like a tick happens to have the same type of role as I claimed..

do you not think

that might be part of why they are latched on to you?

I think the setup is designed to fuck with us now..

They were latched on to me way before I claimed, so its moot what their role allegedly is.

Hence the convenience factor.

i mean, kittytacky is either a friendly neighbour (confirmed town) or there is a mafia mailman (kittytacky confirmed mafia)

it seems more likely the friendly neighbour option to me as it seems consistent to me and i would think there should be a way to tell the difference, but i do not know it

and still you were either lying about being a mailman or roleblocked,

[angela]

What did the message you got say?

i cannot quote it

private communications

it appears to be a friendly neighbour message from kittytacky

as i've said

[angela]

What did the message you got say?

i cannot quote it

private communications

it appears to be a friendly neighbour message from kittytacky

as i've said

you dont have to quote it.. you can paraphrase

cannot really paraphrase a friendly neighbour message in a way that is functionally different from quoting it

[angela]

What did the message you got say?

i cannot quote it

private communications

it appears to be a friendly neighbour message from kittytacky

as i've said

you dont have to quote it.. you can paraphrase

cannot really paraphrase a friendly neighbour message in a way that is functionally different from quoting it

like it's functionally equivalent

i am paraphrasing it by saying it appears to be a friendly neighbour message from kittytacky

i cannot imagine the text one thinks it contains based on that information could be very far from the actual text

[angela]

like what do you think the message might say

based on the information you currently know?

[angela]

I'm not satisfied with that, you aren't even making an effort,just telling me how you can't.

Happy where my vote is,taking a break from this now..

guess i am happy where my vote is as well then

like it doesn't feel to me like you are making any effort either,

as the text seems pretty well explained to me,

in the way i feel most comfortable doing for game integrity reasons

[angela]

like what do you think the message might say

based on the information you currently know?

I have no idea..

Yes or no. Did it explicitly indicate Kitty as town?

yes it did

that's what a friendly neighbour message is

[angela]

like what do you think the message might say

based on the information you currently know?

I have no idea..

Yes or no. Did it explicitly indicate Kitty as town?

yes it did

that's what a friendly neighbour message is

i just do not know if a mailman would be able to send the same thing

i would think not, as that would make friendly neighbour a useless role

but if there is a way to tell the difference i do not know it

as i have said many times already

[angela]

like what do you think the message might say

based on the information you currently know?

I have no idea..

Yes or no. Did it explicitly indicate Kitty as town?

yes it did

that's what a friendly neighbour message is

lol,we wiki'd it at the same time. Don't talk down to me..

i wasn't trying to talk down to you; simply trying to say that it explicitly saying that was covered by the way i presented the information,

my bad on any tone stuff though have been trying to be better about that and will continue to

[angela]

so lets examine the setup then.
Why would there be one confirmable message sender and one not?
Why would there be a town neighbor and a mafia mailman?

The second seems incredibly unbalanced to me..

i don't really want to go too far into this until others weigh in on how to tell the difference if there is a way

friendly neighbour is just a situationally slightly better innocent child that is sometimes worse because fails to confirm (sends message to someone who is killed or mafia or something like that)

and we already know that if you're town there is a roleblocker,

like we don't know that there would be a town friendly neighbour and a mafia mailman

because even if you are mafia, we do not know you are actually a mailman

then claim would be very coincidental

so most likely with regards to that would be like

mafia is informed of friendly neighbour
or
there is a mafia mailman
or
weird coincidence

but your message absent and that is something that has to be addressed in any setup speculation

[angela]

UNVOTE:

until i am able to be around again

[angela]

please no elimination yet idk votes

around in ~4ish hours

[angela]

The Friendly Neighbor message should be a confirmation that Kitty is Town and I suggest you ask the Mod angela. There should be no ambiguity there.

unable to gain any formatting clarity regarding friendly neighbour message vs mailman message

so i either received a friendly neighbour message from kittytacky

or a mailman message made to look like a friendly neighbour message

as far as i can tell

[angela]

The Friendly Neighbor message should be a confirmation that Kitty is Town and I suggest you ask the Mod angela. There should be no ambiguity there.

unable to gain any formatting clarity regarding friendly neighbour message vs mailman message

so i either received a friendly neighbour message from kittytacky

or a mailman message made to look like a friendly neighbour message

as far as i can tell

No this isn’t possible. Like there really isn’t any room for ambiguity here and this is nonsensical.

The message you receive when you’re the recipient of a message from a Friendly Neighbor comes from the Moderator, and it confirms Kitty as Town. If the moderator simply passed on a message, but it was clear in the message that it was not authored by the moderator, then it is nothing more than a message. This really shouldn’t be hard. One is a confirmation and assuming the game isn’t bastard (which I know it isn’t since this is the Normal queue), then you should know for a fact if Kitty is Town or not. You should easily be able to confirm. At the very least, you should be able to ask if the message that you received counts as Mod communication.

the message appears to be a friendly neighbour message, but i have no way of determining whether or not a mailman could have submitted that message in order to make me think that, and i am unable to gain further clarity

[angela]

The Friendly Neighbor message should be a confirmation that Kitty is Town and I suggest you ask the Mod angela. There should be no ambiguity there.

unable to gain any formatting clarity regarding friendly neighbour message vs mailman message

so i either received a friendly neighbour message from kittytacky

or a mailman message made to look like a friendly neighbour message

as far as i can tell

No this isn’t possible. Like there really isn’t any room for ambiguity here and this is nonsensical.

The message you receive when you’re the recipient of a message from a Friendly Neighbor comes from the Moderator, and it confirms Kitty as Town. If the moderator simply passed on a message, but it was clear in the message that it was not authored by the moderator, then it is nothing more than a message. This really shouldn’t be hard. One is a confirmation and assuming the game isn’t bastard (which I know it isn’t since this is the Normal queue), then you should know for a fact if Kitty is Town or not. You should easily be able to confirm. At the very least, you should be able to ask if the message that you received counts as Mod communication.

the message appears to be a friendly neighbour message, but i have no way of determining whether or not a mailman could have submitted that message in order to make me think that, and i am unable to gain further clarity

You’re asking the wrong question and I’m really beginning to doubt this whole thing.

How can you not gain further clarity? Let me ask the Mod one second.

i mean, it's possible i am asking the wrong question, but i do not know what the right question would be in that case

do not understand why that would make you doubt anything though as i have no prior experience with the role and the formatting of what the messages received from each look like isn't on the wiki or anything

on the wiki both say the roles send a message

and i do not know if a mailman would be able to make that message appear to be a friendly neighbour message

[angela]

like what do you think the message might say

based on the information you currently know?

I have no idea..

Yes or no. Did it explicitly indicate Kitty as town?

yes it did

that's what a friendly neighbour message is

Why would I send a message saying Kitty is town?

i mean,

i do not think you did

but purpose of mailman message saying kittytacky is town would be to be confirmed as friendly neighbour

which seems like this would be an odd time in the game for that anyway,

and even without confirmation of there being any difference i would lean towards kittytacky being a friendly neighbour

but would be nice to know and not have worry at back of mind

[angela]

Like this sounds like bullshit. There are certain things that aren’t supposed to be confusing. If there’s a real Friendly Neighbor in the setup, you should absolutely be able to tell if the message you received was not a communication from a different player but came from the Mod. This isn’t supposed to trip you in that way. If the message is formatted a certain way, I still think the Moderator would start the communication with: “You received the following message from [blank]”. Otherwise, this just leads to an element that might be perceived as bastard, and I don’t think that’s ever the intention.

there is no indication of sender, simply a message that appears to be a friendly neighbour message

[angela]

Are you explicitly told in the message that it has come from Kitty? If not, why were you the one who claimed on their behalf?

because it appeared to be a friendly neighbour message from kittytacky and i only later became paranoid about it when thinking about mailman claim

[angela]

I asked the Moderator a question basically on your behalf but I couldn’t get an answer because the Mod doesn’t want to interfere in the game in any way and does not want to give the impression that a role exists within the game. I’m paraphrasing, but that means I won’t get direct confirmation.

you were also unable to gain formatting clarity

and can kinda shrug if we lose to mafia!kittytacky based on mailman message we have no way of separating from a friendly neighbour message

[angela]

Are you explicitly told in the message that it has come from Kitty? If not, why were you the one who claimed on their behalf?

because it appeared to be a friendly neighbour message from kittytacky and i only later became paranoid about it when thinking about mailman claim

But what do you mean by "appeared" to be here? When the message showed up, were you informed both that it was from Kitty, and that it was from a friendly neighbour?

no, i mean it appeared to be a friendly neighbour message from kittytacky

like as though kittytacky had targeted me with a friendly neighbour ability

which according to the wiki would mean i would be sent a message saying kittytacky was town

which is more or less what i received

however i have no way of determining whether or not a mailman could have sent me such a message

and if it would look any different if a mailman did

and was unable to gain further clarity, so

[angela]

I asked the Moderator a question basically on your behalf but I couldn’t get an answer because the Mod doesn’t want to interfere in the game in any way and does not want to give the impression that a role exists within the game. I’m paraphrasing, but that means I won’t get direct confirmation.

you were also unable to gain formatting clarity

and can kinda shrug if we lose to mafia!kittytacky based on mailman message we have no way of separating from a friendly neighbour message

Hard disagree. A message from another player that is mailman will indicate that the message came from another player. If there’s no such component, and it looks like the format from your Role PM, then it’s a Mod communication and confirmation that Kitty is a Friendly Neighbor.

according to the wiki both would be formatted as messages

and i received a message

[angela]

Yes I understand you received a message. But a message from a mailman indicates it came from another player. It’s an important difference. The point of the role is not to confuse you or open up the possibility that you would interpret a message from another player as a Moderator communication. Because that gives the Scum an advantage that’s not supposed to be there. They’re not supposed to be able to impersonate the Moderator. This is completely clear in my mind.

but a friendly neighbour message also comes from another player

from the wiki:

"A Friendly Neighbor can target a player at Night to tell them that they are Town. The target will receive a message saying that the Friendly Neighbor is Town"

this appears to be the message i received

however, i have absolutely no way of knowing if it would look any different if a mailman sent me a message saying kittytacky was town

[angela]

The message from a mailman will say it came from another player. It’s never ambiguous.

@Scorpious, can you paraphrase what it says that the player receiving a message from you will be told when receiving your message?

They will be told it was from a mailman but wont be told the alignment.

hm

i mean, to you that would mean kittytacky confirmed but the main concern here if it did come from a mailman would be you/kittytacky team

so hard for me to take this as hard confirmation

[angela]

Yes I understand you received a message. But a message from a mailman indicates it came from another player. It’s an important difference. The point of the role is not to confuse you or open up the possibility that you would interpret a message from another player as a Moderator communication. Because that gives the Scum an advantage that’s not supposed to be there. They’re not supposed to be able to impersonate the Moderator. This is completely clear in my mind.

but a friendly neighbour message also comes from another player

from the wiki:

"A Friendly Neighbor can target a player at Night to tell them that they are Town. The target will receive a message saying that the Friendly Neighbor is Town"

this appears to be the message i received

however, i have absolutely no way of knowing if it would look any different if a mailman sent me a message saying kittytacky was town

This is not how the role works.

You do receive a message. Kitty targets you as the recipient of the message. But the content of the message doesn’t come from Kitty. If it did, it wouldn’t count as confirmation that they’re Town (only the Mod can provide such confirmations). Like they can’t just type out a message that says “Kitty is Town”, send it to you as mailman, and for you not to clearly see that a player typed out the contents of that message. If the message came from a mailman, it’ll say: “You received the following message from [another player]: “[message]”. It will never just be a Mod confirmation with no source.

according to the wiki the role works the way i described not the way you are describing

i got a message

the message said kittytacky town

that's what i know

[angela]

I'm not worried about the message anymore.

What worries me is how quickly you put thoughtful angela in the back seat and just started "trusting" people.

The message is irrelevant, we can go on about it for literal days..

should i not have trusted the message? i don't understand what you're saying here

if you trust the message then i should have trusted the message

which i did and then paranoia started creeping in

like you're now literally saying

"okay kittytacky town i trust it!

why did you trust it???"

[angela]

What part of the above is wrong in particular? Andre has given a detailed explanation as to how the role works, you are not pointing out where he is incorrect.

the part about how friendly neighbour works that andresvmb is describing

does not match the wiki

nor how it works here if kittytacky is indeed a friendly neighbour

i do not think that makes kittytacky not a friendly neighbour though

as how it works here does seem to match the wiki

just does not match what andresvmb is describing

[angela]

What part in particular does not match? Which aspect of his post is wrong?

Kitty targets you as the recipient of the message. But the content of the message doesn’t come from Kitty.

this

[angela]

like i got message

contents of message is

kittytacky town

which appears to match description on wiki

but i have no way of determining if it would be different if it came from a mailman

like would i not receive a message

and then the contents of that message

in the same way?

outside of scorpious saying that their message would say it came from a mailman, but like i said that not like we can just trust that

[angela]

What I really don’t want to see is that Kitty flips Scum in this game for some reason, that angela then gets to claim that they were confused by the way their communication was received. If Kitty flips Scum, absolutely execute angela no questions asked.

i am town regardless

if kittytacky is mafia it is with scorpious almost always

i am confused by the communication like i said

i don't understand why you possibly think this is how me/kittytacky would play this as mafia

like

...

[angela]

Am I the only one that is struggling with this? The contents of the message received by the target of the Friendly Neighbor do not come from the Friendly Neighbor. That’s literally never the case. It cannot be.

Can someone find an example of a game with a Friendly Neighbor and look at the Mod PT? I’m a bit tired of this conversation.

i can go find one in normal archive give me a few minutes

[angela]

Am I the only one that is struggling with this? The contents of the message received by the target of the Friendly Neighbor do not come from the Friendly Neighbor. That’s literally never the case. It cannot be.

Can someone find an example of a game with a Friendly Neighbor and look at the Mod PT? I’m a bit tired of this conversation.

i can go find one in normal archive give me a few minutes

possibly just kidding

these are the three most recent games with a friendly neighbour i found

and none of them have a mod pt:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=71353

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=80934

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=75496

[angela]

Am I the only one that is struggling with this? The contents of the message received by the target of the Friendly Neighbor do not come from the Friendly Neighbor. That’s literally never the case. It cannot be.

Can someone find an example of a game with a Friendly Neighbor and look at the Mod PT? I’m a bit tired of this conversation.

I think It's a waste of time,The only way this is fabricated is if they are both scum...

I don't see it..

if it's a fabricated friendly neighbour message its very likely you/kittytacky

or there was a town mailman and a mafia mailman and a mafia roleblocker

and the mafia roleblocker blocked you and the mafia mailman sent me a fabricated friendly neighbour message

but that seems extremely unlikely as even the first option seems pretty unlikely to me

[angela]

a bit of a mess and felt all over the place

this is simply a very accurate description of my existence

[angela]

viewtopic.php?p=11259478#p11259478

oh you found it didn't see it linked at end game, my bad

[angela]

viewtopic.php?p=11259478#p11259478

oh you found it didn't see it linked at end game, my bad

"PMysterious targets Vorkuta; Vorkuta is notified that PMysterious is town"

this seems to work like you described

which i was not notified that kittytacky is town

i got a message

and the message said kittytacky town

[angela]

viewtopic.php?p=11259478#p11259478

oh you found it didn't see it linked at end game, my bad

"PMysterious targets Vorkuta; Vorkuta is notified that PMysterious is town"

this seems to work like you described

which i was not notified that kittytacky is town

i got a message

and the message said kittytacky town

but this course of events does match the description on the wiki

and looking at games in the archive, i do not think normal games are standardized even though they probably should be

[angela]

viewtopic.php?p=11259478#p11259478

oh you found it didn't see it linked at end game, my bad

Look at the structure of the message that is sent in the Role PMs that are spoilered. You will notice that it is clearly missing any indication that the content of the message comes from another player. That’s the fundamental distinction.

viewtopic.php?f=94&t=81561

this is mod pt from recent-ish mini normal with a mailman

and it is very difficult for me to see the fundamental distinction

as both would be presented as messages devoid of who from

i got a message, contents of that message were kittytacky town

[angela]

can't really do all that much better than that description wise

seems likely kittytacky is a friendly neighbour

i remain not 100% sure of this

that's where i'm at

[angela]

Again I'm still fundamentally not getting how we can be unsure whether Kitty is neighbour or not if you received a message informing you of this from them. And if you were uncertain, why the immediate trust for their claim at the start of D2 vs distrust of Scorpious? You both seem to absolutely be trusting Kitty's claim while also admitting there's nothing which says it is definitively town?

a) i do not know they actually sent it, though scorpious did not unless scorpious is also a ninja,
b) already explained that the paranoia creeped in later, and if you go back and read through the day you can see when that happened, as i stated it pretty much immediately after it happened
c) i became uncertain but it still seems notably more likely than not to me

[angela]

also it does not say the message is from kittytacky, but neither of those abilities would

[angela]

also it does not say the message is from kittytacky, but neither of those abilities would

Okay wait, but you are the one who outed Kitty's role no? How did you do this before they then said you were right?

because the message

says kittytacky town

i don't understand

what's happening here

[angela]

also it does not say the message is from kittytacky, but neither of those abilities would

Okay wait, but you are the one who outed Kitty's role no? How did you do this before they then said you were right?

because the message

says kittytacky town

i don't understand

what's happening here

like that is the message i would receive from kittytacky if kittytacky were a friendly neighbour, i assume

but i cannot be certain that a message from a mailman with the same contents would not appear the same way

and andresvmb says it would say

that this is from the moderator not from another player

which it does not

it's just a message

but even the wording on that other role pm and the wiki description both would point towards friendly neighbour

not saying it was from the moderator but rather a player receiving a message

which i did

[angela]

also it does not say the message is from kittytacky, but neither of those abilities would

Okay wait, but you are the one who outed Kitty's role no? How did you do this before they then said you were right?

because the message

says kittytacky town

i don't understand

what's happening here

Wait so I've misunderstood...the message does not say it is directly from Kitty, but within the message it states that Kitty is town, yes?

yes

so i assumed this to be a friendly neighbour message from kittytacky

[angela]

also it does not say the message is from kittytacky, but neither of those abilities would

Okay wait, but you are the one who outed Kitty's role no? How did you do this before they then said you were right?

because the message

says kittytacky town

i don't understand

what's happening here

Wait so I've misunderstood...the message does not say it is directly from Kitty, but within the message it states that Kitty is town, yes?

yes

so i assumed this to be a friendly neighbour message from kittytacky

but then i started thinking about the mailman claim right

and i was like

wait!!!!!!!!!

would this not look the same if it were from a mailman

and that's the loop we've been stuck in for pages here

[angela]

For reasons I don’t intend to discuss, I believe Scorpious is a bad execution today. Let’s please move on to a different player.

scorpious still the very most likely mafia to me

remains hard to reconcile claim even though roleblocked is a possibility still doesn't seem as likely as scorpious being mafia to me

i won't put my vote back right now as i am about to be away for a while,

but if i had to vote at this time it would certainly be for scorpious

however i am happy to spend rest of day sorting and such

and i think the 'get everyone involved' or whatever you want to call it here is good

just don't really see the need to present it as opposition to scorpious elimination

when it still comes down to the same thing as before for me regarding scorpious

[angela]

For reasons I don’t intend to discuss, I believe Scorpious is a bad execution today. Let’s please move on to a different player.

Galron and/or Malcolm

(have felt uneasy about malcolmtucker throughout and there is equity with scorpious but doesn't seem individually more likely to me;

for galron i guess i mostly felt okay with yesterday even though it didn't feel like we were viewing the game particularly similarly but today so far it is like,

galron and i have played a few times together all as town and

and and and

it is like we have talked to eachother to understand eachother

and here it kinda felt like town!galron would have been more likely to try to engage me to try to understand where i was coming from instead of simply voting me

as it's not like galron has immediately understood where i was coming from or what i was doing all of the time in the past but galron tried to see even if it felt like i was not doing something reasonable

and galron just voted me here and i dunno if that is much to put weight on

it probably isn't

but it didn't feel so familiar town galron to me

i guess)

[angela]

but also maybe that was to be coming when galron returned

dunno dunno

j'aurais surement du taire parfois

[angela]

not really here right now but yes kittytacky confirmed town

[angela]

Angela (who is 99% liekly to be different alignment to Scorpious)

how does this

even make sense?

like sure i think it is pretty apparent that we are not mafia together

but that doesn't make me mafia if scorpious is town? it would just mean scorpious was roleblocked,

which is what i have been trying to get everyone to weigh vs odds scorpious is a mafia

for most of the day

[angela]

okay there's a lot here tomorrow it is

[angela]

I think Scorpious flipping town would make Angela very suspect

i,

guess i just,

don't really understand at all

like my being wrong doesn't make me mafia i am wrong quite often much more often than i would like to be

and! like, i don't go very far out of my way to make the game much harder for myself as mafia?

which is what you would have to think i'd be doing this game in general if you think i am mafia

but, shrug, this is all hedged on a scorpious townflip anyway and doesn't seem as worth discussing as the likelihood of that potential townflip

but anyway like i said, tomorrow's eyes

[angela]

My concern would be less about you making a wrong call but more due to the way you went all-in on Scorpious immediately at the start of D2 without really stopping to consider whether there could have been a mistake. You've only later seemed to consider that a bit more.

but why would my doing so be mafia indicative?

the information i was working with was:

kittytacky friendly neighbour

and

scorpious either lying or roleblocked

and it had felt like scorpious had been behaving like a mafia during day one and i was frustrated with myself for end of day one

like this like 'analytical and logical' version of me is someone you and others have mostly invented

and i don't really understand why?

like i am easily excited and my understanding of logic is not particularly great and my feelings hold all of the sway over me

there are many many examples of play 'changing' in similar ways to how you are saying my played 'changed' here,

where it is just me acting on new information

silent star lunacy beginning of day two, the first 'a normal blitz' micro moderated by micc at the beginning of day two after ame claimed, achromatic calamity after toogeloo started pushing pooky day two

all immediately come to mind both in terms of reasoning and timing

[angela]

kittytacky friendly neighbour

and

scorpious either lying or roleblocked

like if you (malcolmtucker) don't think scorpious is likely to be a mafia,

please explain to me why you think it is more likely scorpious was roleblocked,

and!

what you think the worlds might look like in that case

as i get that i am maybe 'stuck' on this,

but to me right now the way to become unstuck would be to eliminate scorpious,

as the roleblocked option doesn't seem more likely to me right now

[angela]

kittytacky friendly neighbour

and

scorpious either lying or roleblocked

like if you (malcolmtucker) don't think scorpious is likely to be a mafia,

please explain to me why you think it is more likely scorpious was roleblocked,

and!

what you think the worlds might look like in that case

as i get that i am maybe 'stuck' on this,

but to me right now the way to become unstuck would be to eliminate scorpious,

as the roleblocked option doesn't seem more likely to me right now

and there have been multiple times where it felt to me like

like

you maybe knew scorpious's alignment, or scorpious yours

throughout the game

[angela]

Enjoy your tunnel, I'm done even trying to talk rationally to you. You are set on me..
Which is fine because it will help town when I flip and you wont like it.

scorpious no please if you're town here

like to you know you are town right

so you can be ahead of us on like

the being roleblocked and stuff and what that means for the game

and maybe you have said in the past handful of pages,

i haven't yet read them super closely or anything, working on this

but like, who do you think the scums are in that world and why,

[angela]

I've given how I feel on multiple slots, multiple times.

Gera is my top SR becasue their posting is utterly useless, and I struggle to see town motivation in anything they post.I want to know how many days this game is going to let him cruise.

I'm VERY wary of STD and NERO, like play or rep out.. and Andante's game so far has been putrid...

Don't rep into the game if you have proior obligations and use that as an excuse when people call you out on it..

i guess maybe i did not ask this very well,

as these all feel like independent scumreads to me and not really like a angling based on your being roleblocked or anything,

but also entirely possible that is not how you view things et cetera

i think there's probably a better way to encourage more content from those slots than this

but i myself am also generally on the negative side of that one and have not been making as concerted an effort to do so recently as i probably should have

[angela]

I also don't like how Gera assumes Kitty is right,becasue they are confirmed town.

As I said, being confirmed does not give you the right to stop hunting. We should be taking advantage of a confirmed townie,and they should be as well. Not just parking a vote. Kitty is giving away any advantage we might have by having a confirmed townie.

Also, the fact that all it would take is one message from me to go through is all it would take to prove I was blocked..

But that means not limming me...

Last note, the wagon on me is atrocious, After I flip just go down the list and we will win this game..

right but how does that hunting not currently lead back to the same place?

like if there is a roleblocker how do you think the message would get through?

like tomorrow if no message is it just ope guess roleblocked again?

forever?

and there are a lot of other elements to that specifically that probably not really worth getting into