Mini Normal 2268 Game Over

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: Guilty lion
Not letting you get past me again

Well hello to you too!

VOTE: Dwlee99

Dwlee, can you link me to any prior town games of yours where you RVS voted someone based on a past game together like this? I think this style of RVS intro vote is slightly +scum, it's an easy/convenient reason to plop down your first vote and I'm also a lil pinged that you didn't really say hi or otherwise engage me directly

[GuiltyLion]

I feel like my response was clearly a joke cause I even followed it up by saying I was informed you were scum so idk why you're so caught up on this and calling me frozen when it's a Saturday night and I'm hanging with friends makes no sense

this also kinda bad

"

so

" caught up on this - how much is koba posting about it in the hood? cause if not a lot, feels like a bit of an exaggeration here

and the hanging with friends bit is some AtE vibes

[GuiltyLion]

I'm aware neighbours means I can't 100% trust them, but I don't know how to play around this!! I need help and I figured you guys could help..? (since I can't 100% trust them yet maybe asking them for advice wouldn't have been a good idea?) Maybe Not Known 15 might end up hating me for claiming it, but whats the worse scum can do..? Kill us? At least town can work with this info in mind now though.

I get townvibes from this and would like to know if anyone disagrees

I feel if scum!marci is in a hood with NK15 she wouldn't be likely to claim it without hearing from him at all yet, and this explanation feels genuine

[GuiltyLion]

This looks constructed, hedgey, and the hanging with friends is just a description, not AtE.

Explain how it is "hedgey"? What do you think I am hedging on, and why?

also, yes, I understand it is a description. the AtE is that they bothered to bring it up at all to a singular accusation of being 'frozen', it's using irl to defend themself when they had nothing they needed to defend themselves over.

Not sure if this is whiteknighting or defending a partner, because an early claim of a neighborhood isn't really AI... it is useful info for town that will probably be spilled anyways!

[...]

Marci looks scummy.

I think the

specific

way marcistar claimed it, bringing it up before you had said anything to her, is AI.

I'm also a bit confused by your use of the term "white knighting" here? Do you think anyone is pushing marcistar or that I believe I should get towncred for townreading her in that context? Who was I defending her

against

, in your mind?

I also don't believe you actually think marci is scummy, you've given no reasoning for it. What in her posts do you see as potentially scum-indicative?

[GuiltyLion]

I'm not going through my past games to look for something as inconsequential as this. Every game I look at the playerlist, pick a name on vibe, decide to give a reason or not based on my mood, then put the first thing that pops into my head down if I do. I've probably not said this combo of words ever because most people haven't snowed me in the specific associative way you did and also that one time we played back in 2016 and I called you scum but my hydra did not agree to lim you

If you do it frequently, it shouldn't be hard to find another example of it, no? I'm not looking for the specific combo of words, rather just anything like "vote: [x], you were scum last game we played", if that's

ever

been your reasoning for your first vote.

if you're not willing to do that to help me get over my dislike of your first post, fine, but I don't know why you wouldn't want to help me see you as town here if you're town, it shouldn't be too hard to do a quick survey of past town games and I'll probably wind up doing it myself later regardless

If you were actually trying to read me you'd see I was specifically responding to Koba calling me frozen and it's slimy af to imply I'd lie about being busy irl

I never said nor meant to imply you were lying about it, I believe you. My issue is rather that you brought it up at all. who cares if koba thinks you are "frozen" or not?? you chose to say your IRL reason for not posting in the game just a couple hours into gamestart, it's the fact that you compelled to do that to reply to Koba that bothers me, not the reasoning itself. if his frozen accusation has no validity because it had no bearing on your alignment, why bring up something that has no bearing on your alignment (being out with friends) in response, especially when it's not like anyone else was agreeing with or sheeping Koba?

[GuiltyLion]

if their frozen accusation

EBWOP

[GuiltyLion]

Why do u have a POE already when theres people who havent even posted yet?

Why not? Those who have not posted are null, and there are 4 suspicious people with a maximum of 3 scum.

the fact that you already have more suspects than the number of scum should tell you that your reasoning for suspecting people is wrong and needs work

[GuiltyLion]

i dont know if a rapid show of gamesolving to get townread early is outside of their scum range. i also think that the way they went so hot on Dwlee on a poor reaction test makes me think it's fabricated so they can have somewhere to push.

sure it's not outside scum range, but that doesn't mean they are scum? are you saying you suspect Koba here or are you just trying to push back against people townreading them?

also, what is your read on Dwlee? I see you not liking Koba's vote/reasoning, but I don't see you giving your own opinion on Dwlee

[GuiltyLion]

I never said nor meant to imply you were lying about it, I believe you. My issue is rather that you brought it up at all. who cares if koba thinks you are "frozen" or not?? you chose to say your IRL reason for not posting in the game just a couple hours into gamestart, it's the fact that you compelled to do that to reply to Koba that bothers me, not the reasoning itself. if his frozen accusation has no validity because it had no bearing on your alignment, why bring up something that has no bearing on your alignment (being out with friends) in response, especially when it's not like anyone else was agreeing with or sheeping Koba?

ehhh actually I'm thinking about this more and I'm not sure it's an especially great point

I think the main thing I didn't like is this idea that a. because you are out with friends and therefore not frozen scum, b. we're supposed to believe that you're town

but I'm realizing in fairness if you

know

you're town, it might make sense as a response, and I might be assuming/projecting b) when you didn't mean to suggest it to that degree.

I do think you're being defensive but that might be more of a personality trait here

[GuiltyLion]

i have reservations calling scum

mmm I'm of an opposite philosophy, let the accusations fly freely

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: Guilty Lion

are you going to respond to my questions to you in 83?

[GuiltyLion]

marcistar is so kawaii

that's a valid read into the game

I'm a bit confused by these two posts - are you saying you think marci is town but you disagree with the reasons I gave? or do you not townread marci?

[GuiltyLion]

ah, I missed a quote, I meant to also quote tictac's 105 where he disagrees with me on a marci TR

[GuiltyLion]

i dont know if GuiltyLion is the type of scum who would back off a public scumread who is gaining steam after some behind-the-curtain assessment that it's just Dwlee's personality

I would absolutely do this as scum, just so you know

[GuiltyLion]

you're insistent that your reads aren't a bit disingenuous (which you would have admitted by now if you were town) when they ARE disingenuous

1) what is the idea that koba would have already admitted disingenuous reads by now (the parenthetical in the quote) based on? is that past experience with koba?

2) I don't really think Koba's reads are disingenuous. I know you've explained why you think they are, but I disagree, they make sense to me

[GuiltyLion]

I think like, tictac, marci, gamma are all town

koba probtown, town enough for the moment and prob D1

I do think it's very likely there's a scum in at least one of the hoods so I'm down with either Dwlee or NK15 wagons atm though I would like NK15 to actually engage with me so I can better suss out the degree to which he believes what he's pushing

[GuiltyLion]

eh actually on second thought I shouldn't have tictac as particularly strong town given I don't really know what their scum range is, I mostly just liked their approach to HEM. Gamma I think is vibing more like his towngame so far given my experience with him.

main thing with you is you're in a hood + I don't think you're out of scum range at all despite me liking what you've had to say so far

[GuiltyLion]

I believe there is at least one scum in a hood, I said that already

[GuiltyLion]

call it a hunch

[GuiltyLion]

I'm not going to answer that beyond what I've already stated

if I start advocating to chain eliminate every player in a hood I'll offer more reasoning then

[GuiltyLion]

Koba can be against lumping mechplay and dayplay, that's fine and I can empathize with that perspective, but it isn't going to change my opinion as it relates to the hoods and this game here. I know it's unsatisfying for you but I'm not really willing to discuss the point further, I will assure you that "being in a hood" is never going to be my sole or primary reason for wanting to eliminate somebody especially the deeper into the game we go

[GuiltyLion]

1) because town!koba knows where it would lead (a useless 1v1 with me) if they continue a facetious line of attack when they could just back off and explain themself

Regarding this point, wouldn't this reasoning fall apart if town!koba genuinely thinks that you are scum? Like you're assuming they think it's a facetious line of attack, when they might just actually believe they're onto you, in which case they wouldn't want to back off

I also don't like the way you have been defending me, it kinda feels like you might know that I am town and are trying to either buddy me or earn Critical Thinking Townie Points by pointing out that my play isn't scum motivated.

it's also not like I especially backed off on my Dwlee read, I realized one line of argument I had was a bit uncharitable (Dwlee was accused for what they would believe are NAI reasons yet gave a NAI defense as if it cleared them) but I'm still voting there, I still think Dwlee's a good vote

[GuiltyLion]

on the flip side, I townread Koba's dislike of my scum-in-a-hood assumption. I think that feels like a townie thing to get so wigged out by, because scum would both a) know that I am right in that world and b) possibly be self-conscious about how pushing back on the idea might look.

[GuiltyLion]

that's just bad theory imo

don't call it bad until we know if I'm right or wrong

[GuiltyLion]

i think town!koba does not genuinely think i'm scum there.

i'm not trying to defend you. i'm actively making other people spell out why you're scum.

so why do you think it's still a good vote?

eh, I dunno if I see the Relevant Difference here between "defending" me vs "making other people spell out why I'm scum", I understand those things aren't quite the same but my point is that the reasons you've giving for townreading me feel a little less like naturally drawn conclusions and more like reasons you could come up with to TR me while knowing that I'm town, and there's certainly possible benefits to scum taking that position on me here. I know regardless of your alignment you're prob not going to agree/see it that way, buuuuut that's how I feel

Dwlee is a good vote still because I have not yet felt any good townvibes from any posts they've made

[GuiltyLion]

GL, why? Why do you think I'm scum? I don't even think Koba really believes what they're saying, but you do? Can you explain your read on me?

that sounds like horseshit. why shouldn't i townread you?

what do you think about roden's read on dwlee?

not sure what the "why" specifically is in response to, let me know if I missed something

I feel a vaguely scummy vibe from you overall HEM, I agree with Roden that you feel appeasing towards Koba, and I also think you've been mostly just taking a backseat gamestate wide to critique various townreads/scumreads without trying strongly to shape the game any which way, definitely not towards your own reads

I'm not saying you shouldn't townread me, I'd love it if everybody townread me, but when you say stuff like you're town-leaning me because I "actively tried to make me question his townness" (257) it feels fake/off. As town or scum I could make somebody question my towniness, it's not an especially alignment indicative thing. And your point on re-evaluating slightly on Dwlee is not bad, except I haven't moved my vote off of Dwlee so I don't know why you're putting stock into it when my actions don't support a definitive re-evaluation there.

I see where Roden's coming from with the idea that scum!Dwlee may have handled themself a bit better, but I generally don't think it's wise to townread people for not playing well enough as we would expect them to as scum, especially when it pertains to defensiveness around being accused.

[GuiltyLion]

i dont know if GuiltyLion is the type of scum who would back off a public scumread who is gaining steam after some behind-the-curtain assessment that it's just Dwlee's personality

unless both are partnered, maybe

like.. idk if its scum indicative for him.. ive seen him rethink and doubt his reads before like that

rethink and doubt reads as scum? i'm saying is i don't know if he's that type of scum player. meaning, he could be town with the exception that he is capable of doing internal rethinks as scum or he's partnered with dwlee

Why? I'm leaning into GL town because of the behind-the-scenes read change for a wagon that's gaining steam (isn't it counterproductive to do that as scum?) but it's not really hard to do as scum and can be tactical if Dwlee is a partner. Plus, when prompted, he actively tried to make me question his townness (another counterproductive thing to do as scum, yet might also be done to pocket me)

Looking for other perspective on GL before closing my read there.

you've also implied several times that I might be partnered with Dwlee, and I don't think that makes a lot of sense as a natural thought. while I could buy an idea that it'd be advantageous for me to start giving myself an offramp, the odds of us being scum together are generally so low that I don't know why you think the Dwlee-GL interaction is specifically more likely "either T!GL or S-S" rather than me just being plain ol town or scum with or without Dwlee. like why wouldn't I do that kinda "re-evaluation" as scum on a town!Dwlee?

(as an aside, this is funny because the last time I was scum (the white flag game Gamma referenced), I wasn't aligned with Dwlee yet people were accusing us of being partners there as well and I tried to lean into that in case I got flipped)

[GuiltyLion]

i think scum!GL is trying to pocket me right here.

?
why would I need to pocket you and what am I doing to pocket you? how is not liking you defending me and calling you scummy an attempt to pocket?

[GuiltyLion]

I dunno about pocketing but I don't entirely grasp what GL's trying to say rn

which part, ask me if I am confusing you

[GuiltyLion]

I also think you've been mostly just taking a backseat gamestate wide to critique various townreads/scumreads without trying strongly to shape the game any which way, definitely not towards your own reads

HUH

who are you voting/championing to wagon right now? you can't claim to be shaping the game if you're not even voting

I'm not voting you cause a) Dwlee is a bigger wagon and b) I kinda want to see what they make of everything when they get back before deciding if I want to defuse any pressure there.

[GuiltyLion]

you cant seriously think dwlee wakes up and become instantly pressured by the votes in his wagon. do you?

why dont you vote me instead and push me if you really think im scum. let's see how you can sustain that.

3 votes are more pressure than 2. and there's no telling what will happen if they come back, make a scummy post and people point out that it's scummy, then Dwlee might pick up even more votes

I'm not vibing with the attempt to control my vote here, all this is doing is making me feel like you want me to move my vote off of Dwlee. I'll push you if and when I see fit

[GuiltyLion]

Why? I'm leaning into GL town because of the behind-the-scenes read change for a wagon that's gaining steam (isn't it counterproductive to do that as scum?) but it's not really hard to do as scum and can be tactical if Dwlee is a partner. Plus, when prompted, he actively tried to make me question his townness (another counterproductive thing to do as scum, yet might also be done to pocket me)

alright so revisiting this,

now

do you agree with me that none of this stuff was indicative in the way that you claimed to think it was?

am I correct in my understanding that the situation here is:

HEM: "I TR GL for [x] and [y] reasons"
GL: "I don't like HEM TRing me for those reasons, they don't feel natural to me nor are they all that AI"
HEM: "wait, so you scumread me? despite me townreading you?"
GL: "yeah, your reasoning feels fake to me"
HEM: VOTE:

cause uh, to me that means either a) you changed your mind to agree with me simultaneously while developing a scumread on me, or b) you never really believed in them in the first place? which is it?

[GuiltyLion]

I also still fail to see how my play with regard to you specifically here meets any reasonable template of "pocketing" you, unless you somehow believe that I happen to preemptively know what you look for in town and am specifically trying to emulate it

and even then, don't see why scum!me would go out of my way to pocket you

[GuiltyLion]

and, whatever your alignment is, you're also committing the mafia fallacy of finding reasons to scumread the player who is putting forth a ton of content into the thread, over the player who made a handful of scummy posts and since hasn't posted

I am

frequently

mistakenly scumread. Do you think, right now between both of our ISOs, the odds that I am scum are higher than the odds that Dwlee is scum?

[GuiltyLion]

HEM: "I TR GL for [x] and [y] reasons"
GL: "I don't like HEM TRing me for those reasons, they don't feel natural to me nor are they all that AI"
HEM: "wait, so you scumread me? despite me townreading you?"
GL: "yeah, your reasoning feels fake to me"
HEM: VOTE:

oh you reframed the conversation to fit your agenda. +scum

care to point out what I'm reframing? I can cite specific posts for each of these.

[GuiltyLion]

I'll push you if and when I see fit

so null Dwlee > scum HEM because Dwlee is more likely to be wagoned gotcha

yep. I'm still very interested in sorting Dwlee

[GuiltyLion]

1. I dont TR you. I'm holidng back the TR on you, and I've been discussing it with other people.
2. I dont have any problem with you scumreading me despite me townreading you. I have a problem with you scumreading me and not voting me meanwhile you're voting Dwlee because "pressure" when you've provided doubt on their scumminess

I'm sorry, did the dictionary get updated when I wasn't looking so that "I'm leaning into GL town" (257) doesn't actually mean you are town-leaning me?

I doubted

one particular point

I made about Dwlee, I still altogether don't find any of their posts townie and that merits a scumread and a vote. and I have a policy of keeping my vote on the larger wagon even when I also scumread other players at the same time. because wagons are good for generating content and a smorgasbord of E-6 wagons are not.

[GuiltyLion]

you're speaking to your scumread like they're town.

yeah, because I'm frequently wrong about my scumreads, it's Day 1 and we have no hard info and I have to consider constantly that I might be wildly off in my assessment of the game

this is pure gotcha-ism, don't do gotcha-ism, it isn't a good look

[GuiltyLion]

HEM: "I TR GL for [x] and [y] reasons"
GL: "I don't like HEM TRing me for those reasons, they don't feel natural to me nor are they all that AI"
HEM: "wait, so you scumread me? despite me townreading you?"
GL: "yeah, your reasoning feels fake to me"
HEM: VOTE:

oh you reframed the conversation to fit your agenda. +scum

care to point out what I'm reframing? I can cite specific posts for each of these.

sick dodge here btw

[GuiltyLion]

2. I dont have any problem with you scumreading me despite me townreading you.

did I misunderstand these posts?

GL, why? Why do you think I'm scum? I don't even think Koba really believes what they're saying, but you do? Can you explain your read on me?

that sounds like horseshit. why shouldn't i townread you?

what do you think about roden's read on dwlee?

[GuiltyLion]

if you're saying that previous conversation was wholly irrelevant to you voting me, then it seems like literally your only reason for scumreading me is that I'm voting Dwlee instead of you

I've already explained several times why I'm currently doing that, so if you don't buy my explanation then we'll have to just let other people decide how they feel about this back and forth

[GuiltyLion]

@Koba
@Gamma
@Dwlee

also appealing to the rest of the playerlist

Let's get a REAL wagon going.

uh... it's pretty obvious, you asked me why I think you're scum, I answered, you said it was "horseshit" and then asked why you shouldn't townread me

if none of that makes you suspicious of me then what was your point with any of it?

[GuiltyLion]

whoops, quote bug, but I do greatly want to see what Dwlee in particular thinks about our little clash so consider that a signal boost

[GuiltyLion]

I take everything seriously, I'm a sweaty tryhard. famously so

[GuiltyLion]

I am frequently mistakenly scumread. Do you think, right now between both of our ISOs, the odds that I am scum are higher than the odds that Dwlee is scum?

I did want this answered - can I assume and thus state for the record for all posterity that your answer is "Unequivocally, yes"?

[GuiltyLion]

alright, fair enough. that's honestly a baffling position to me for someone to take but if you're sticking with it then I got nothing more to say. let's hope for your sake that your read on Dwlee ages well, because the one on me will not

[GuiltyLion]

Dwlee has 5 posts and none of them strike me as Towny Posts that especially Town Town. if you disagree with that, point me to the town post that I missed. so anyone with a TR there is already kinda inherently odd to me.

meanwhile, I have some 46 posts. I'll grant that there's almost certainly reasons to worry about or suspect me in those 46 posts, especially since I also don't think I'm a player that should be easily townread. that's the nature of mafia

however, I think from a general probability sense, if you're looking at two players and thinking you have more confidently sorted the one with 5 posts as not-scum than the player with 46, on D1 without any flips for associatives or hard information, then I would say

at best

you are biasing, either against me or pro-Dwlee. when you have Dwlee as town and me as scum at this point, especially in part

because

I'm voting Dwlee, to me it feels like you're suggesting that a dwlee redflip would surprise you more than a GL greenflip. I have a hard time grokking that perspective.

[GuiltyLion]

I got into this exact argument literally just in my last game and I was right about redtea there too, who was being read as town for being "lazy" and not solving and oops turns out the simple obvious explanation was correct and they were scum.

I think townreading Dwlee for this "image management" point is bad. If your argument is that Dwlee knows how to be townread for "image" as scum then they owe it to us to image themself equally as town so that we don't mistakenly suspect them. Being so quick to get defensive at the first sign of pressure from koba is not inherently townie. I don't even care about any of the traitor reaction test stuff cause I can't read it myself, my read is all about the tepid RVS vote and the defensive response to being called frozen.

[GuiltyLion]

lion thinks dwlee is scum for being "frozen".

Nope, never said this. Said I didn't like their reaction to being called frozen. Misrepped by the very first sentence lmao

[GuiltyLion]

GL, is HEM town?

I certainly don't see it. Why do you think he is?

[GuiltyLion]

he later reinforces that he finds Dwlee still scummy for these reasons, backtracking on his progress on the slot

How is it "progress" when Dwlee literally has not posted at all

Ive had nothing new to reevaluate them on

And again, I was rethinking ONE PARTICULAR POINT I MADE, not the whole read

[GuiltyLion]

because he still wants to pressure his nullread Dwlee (whose wagon has fizzled out)

Has it fizzled? It's the leading wagon

[GuiltyLion]

the answer is he's not town, and he's trying hard not to escalate.

Dude I'll argue with you all fucking day if you're going to keep coming at me. Consider it escalated

[GuiltyLion]

even if you're not convinced and you nullread him at best, your vote could be productive as it would lead to a gamestate where we have actual wagons.

[pushes GL to vote him instead of Leading Wagon Dwlee]

[then posts this]

are you even hearing yourself???

[GuiltyLion]

Oh well I guess I'm the leading wagon now lmao

[GuiltyLion]

Since when is that a thing Koba?

Do you not see him trying extremely hard to push attention away from Dwlee here? Like effectively he only started scumreading me on r I refused to give him what he wanted by moving my vote. Now he proclaims without any evidence that the Dwlee wagon has "fizzled"

If your issue with me is really the hood thing, I promise you I can explain that to more satisfaction later. Just won't do it unless I absolutely have to.

[GuiltyLion]

meanwhile, he scumreads me but refuses to do more with my slot than slinging questions on my alignment. why? because he still wants to pressure his nullread Dwlee (whose wagon has fizzled out). why won't he pressure the scum that — in his town!POV — dragging his town name to the ground and engaging him right to his face? the answer is he's not town, and he's trying hard not to escalate.

coming back to this again

you've accused me of both trying to pocket you and now trying not to escalate

why would scum!me even claim to scumread you and call out that your reasons for townreading me were kinda fake-sounding and bad, if these were my goals? Like, the pocket-y and de-escalating thing I could have done would have been to simply townread you and amplify your voice against my other detractors. But instead I pick a fight with one of the only people asking people to explain why they suspect me? and you think that's a

de-escalation

tactic?

[GuiltyLion]

just the idea that I specifically need to vote you in order to "engage you right to your face" is frankly absurd, really

I am often accused of many things, but 'pockety' and 'trying not to escalate' are pretty rare on the bingo card, so props for that

[GuiltyLion]

i dont know if GuiltyLion is the type of scum who would back off a public scumread who is gaining steam after some behind-the-curtain assessment that it's just Dwlee's personality

Where did they do this?

an excellent question which you'll find never once answered in the subsequent 200 posts

[GuiltyLion]

no, you didn't, you repeatedly asserted that my read changed despite me calling you on it several times.

Receipts:

it's also not like I especially backed off on my Dwlee read, I realized one line of argument I had was a bit uncharitable (Dwlee was accused for what they would believe are NAI reasons yet gave a NAI defense as if it cleared them) but I'm still voting there, I still think Dwlee's a good vote

1. I dont TR you. I'm holidng back the TR on you, and I've been discussing it with other people.
2. I dont have any problem with you scumreading me despite me townreading you. I have a problem with you scumreading me and not voting me meanwhile you're voting Dwlee because "pressure" when you've provided doubt on their scumminess

I'm sorry, did the dictionary get updated when I wasn't looking so that "I'm leaning into GL town" (257) doesn't actually mean you are town-leaning me?

I doubted

one particular point

I made about Dwlee, I still altogether don't find any of their posts townie and that merits a scumread and a vote. and I have a policy of keeping my vote on the larger wagon even when I also scumread other players at the same time. because wagons are good for generating content and a smorgasbord of E-6 wagons are not.

he later reinforces that he finds Dwlee still scummy for these reasons, backtracking on his progress on the slot

How is it "progress" when Dwlee literally has not posted at all

Ive had nothing new to reevaluate them on

And again, I was rethinking ONE PARTICULAR POINT I MADE, not the whole read

Look at the quote you JUST posted. I said "ehhh actually I'm thinking about this more and I'm not sure it's an especially great point" and "I do think you're being defensive but that might be more of a personality trait here" - neither of these constitutes an actual

read

backtrack. It was me trying to be fair to Dwlee and give them a bit more of an olive branch engagement than a hostile one.

[GuiltyLion]

i dont know if GuiltyLion is the type of scum who would back off a public scumread who is gaining steam after some behind-the-curtain assessment that it's just Dwlee's personality

I would absolutely do this as scum, just so you know

So when did you realize you hadn't done the thing HEM said you did? Cause it seems here that to were saying you did do it but now you're saying you didn't do it and I don't see following posts going "wait I didn't do that"

at the time he first posted 134, I thought he understood that I was dialing back that specific point against you, and that he understood I was still voting/wanting to sort you.

Then later he starts reframing it as if my read itself had evolved or changed

[GuiltyLion]

yes, I do not like the defensive response to being called frozen. I realized that the rush to post about IRL in response may just be a personality thing, but I still don't like it, want more engagement from Dwlee, and at no point did that evolve into me townreading Dwlee or not wanting a wagon there

[GuiltyLion]

can we 1v1 later im nearing deadline hahahaha

are we 1v1ing? I thought it wasn't possible to engage with you if I'm not voting you. I thought I was trying to deescalate

[GuiltyLion]

alright, cool, so we agree that "he didn't vote me so therefore he doesn't want to/can't engage with/fight with me" was garbage reasoning. just wanted to make that explicit

[GuiltyLion]

meanwhile, he scumreads me but refuses to do more with my slot than slinging questions on my alignment. why? because he still wants to pressure his nullread Dwlee (whose wagon has fizzled out). why won't he pressure the scum that — in his town!POV — dragging his town name to the ground and engaging him right to his face? the answer is he's not town, and he's trying hard not to escalate.

[GuiltyLion]

meanwhile, he scumreads me but refuses to do more with my slot than slinging questions on my alignment. why? because he still wants to pressure his nullread Dwlee (whose wagon has fizzled out). why won't he pressure the scum that — in his town!POV — dragging his town name to the ground and engaging him right to his face? the answer is he's not town, and he's trying hard not to escalate.

alright, cool, so we agree that "he didn't vote me so therefore he doesn't want to/can't engage with/fight with me" was garbage reasoning. just wanted to make that explicit

yes it's garbage reasoning but that's not the reasoning at all

what am I strawmanning here??? are you reading these posts?

[GuiltyLion]

I'm not gonna lie, I

would

if I were scum, because I think the primary goal of scum should be to effectively mask who their buddies are, and it worked quite well in that game

but I'm not scum here, so I'm not doing that

[GuiltyLion]

Why did that quote again? Anyway — this fight seems like theater

what in your mind makes it theater rather than a real fight

[GuiltyLion]

I feel like there's elements of both of you getting twisted into a pretzel on what angles you're trying to take

hmmm

I don't think you're wrong about pretzel twisting happening, but I don't know if I think that's something that only comes from scum

and if your issue with me is the question in 372, I feel like my 375 answered that but I'll try to unknot the pretzel

1. I posted 93 where I thought more about my point about posting NAI defense to a (presumably) NAI accusation, and realized it was a bit uncharitable, because town!Dwlee out with friends is capable of posting "I'm out with friends"

2. HEM says I "back[ed] off a public scumread who is gaining steam after some behind-the-curtain assessment that it's just Dwlee's personality" in 134. (

also, interesting to note that HEM says that the wagon was GAINING steam at the time of my 93 here, when he's since later said it fizzled out by then

). At the time I didn't question this and wasn't especially bothered by it, because I thought I understood "backing off" to mean something closer to (what I see as) offering an olive branch to you or dialing back one point that I made, rather than a reversal of a read.

3. HEM then later asserts that it was a "behind-the-scenes read change for a wagon that's gaining steam" (257), and at this point I realize he's saying that I actually

changed my read

rather than

backed off

. Which prompts me to

4. Point out that I don't like him saying I "backed off on my read", because I was still voting you and still suspecting you 263

still a pretzel?

[GuiltyLion]

And your point on re-evaluating slightly on Dwlee is not bad, except I haven't moved my vote off of Dwlee so I don't know why you're putting stock into it when my actions don't support a definitive re-evaluation there.

here's another post I forgot to quote earlier where I make the same point, too

[GuiltyLion]

I think semantically there was never a clear agreed-upon definition of "backing off" vs "changing reads" and so I have probably not been precise with my language or what specifically I am understanding it to mean, and neither has HEM, and that may contribute to the pretzel feeling of that particular argument or even us full on misunderstanding each other.

but I also think throughout I've been consistent on the actual stance that despite me being less sure/weakening that point about posting a NAI defense as if it makes you town, at no point did that constitute a significant evolution in me no longer wanting to vote/pressure you, and at times HEM has claimed that it was, which I have rebuffed consistently every time.

[GuiltyLion]

Somebody mentioned earlier that Dwlee is good about self-image stuff as town and I agree there. Dwlee's town and scum play isn't quite night and day, but I feel that they could've easily handled it better if they were scum.

dwlee is very good at image management. i dont buy that as scum, he blunders immediately in koba's hood when koba jokes about being traitor and here when he immediately picks a fight with Koba, Testarossa and you.

Dwlee, I am curious for your thoughts on this argument

Do you agree with this? Is it a good reason to townread you?

[GuiltyLion]

Testarossa seems to have fallen silent after being accused of being GL's partner.

... I sure hope this isn't all you have to say

should I just assume you're never going to respond to my questions towards you?

[GuiltyLion]

i can attest to dwlee scumgame lacking sloppiness and looking *too clean*

I've been trying to decide how I feel about dwlee just rolling with the idea that they should be townread for not looking "polished" on like, page 2 two hours into the game, it's not really the answer I expected but I dunno if I feel it's scummy, personally I would feel a little insulted and suspicious being townread so easily but I am not Dwlee

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: Meuh

is this rvs? can you share your read on Meuh?

It isn't random..

I've played with Meuh quite a bit since we're friends, I often send her game links and ask her to sign up with me!! In all of those games, she's been town and I think she usually just ... has alot more to say than she already has at this point. I feel like shes usually out there very townily towning it up and being sort of like a townblock creator. So I think its weird she hasn't done much yet, i'm not sure if shes scum but I wanna see whats up yknow? !!

I've also been thinking about this and I'm willing to sheep it and this wagon
VOTE: Meuh

[GuiltyLion]

1. Hedgey: The posts are full of words like "some" that downplay the accusations, weakening the pushes. On your number 1 scumread.

The post you quoted was post 56, literally the 56th post in the game. Do you think I should be making strong, fully confident pushes on my "number 1 scumread" when half the players haven't even posted yet? why are you assuming that I should have utmost confidence in my reads when I truly don't? Like I will grill people about stuff that seems off to me but I'm not going to pretend the off stuff is damning when I don't feel that it is.

2. The specific way is just overblown. There is nothing towny about overexaggerations like this.

I don't follow what you think is over exaggerated here, are you talking about marci being over exaggerate or myself?

[GuiltyLion]

I'm not insulted by the idea that my scum play is only detectable by being undetectable lol

eh fair enough

since you haven't moved your vote, am I still your #1 scumread here or are you still potentially re-evaluating

[GuiltyLion]

yeah after Meuh's posts I like my vote even better, whole lot of commentary that isn't actually directing things anywhere - good example of this being that she thinks NK15's case on me is fair yet then spends the rest of the comment on that post giving reasons why it's not actually all that fair or why NK15 doesn't look good to her. overall feels very much like "thoughts for the sake of thoughts"

[GuiltyLion]

@GL, can you link me your most recent scumgame?

gladly

What information were you hoping to get from asking everyone that?

I think marci is someone who is conventionally quite easy to push or fake a scumread on, and I also have had a few games of experience with her as both alignments - she felt townie to me early so I thought she'd be a good slot to use as information to see who was gonna be reluctant to townread her or even explicitly scumread her. And if she continued to look town (which she has), would be good to take her out of the limpool immediately to narrow scum's options for slots to push.

Was mostly curious to see who would push back on me and why, wasn't looking for anything super specific in particular but I do think people who prickle at being forced into early townreads are worth examining

Did you look through Dwlee's past games for this?

I actually did early today and found it inconclusive, here's my notes as I saved it as a draft:

Spoiler: Dwlee RVS meta

DWLEE TOWN RVS OPENING POSTS

Dwlee town RVS #1 <- similar
"heyo"

Dwlee town RVS #2
vote in response to being voted "BWEH"

Dwlee town RVS #3
"First three posters have scum I think or something like that idk"

Dwlee town RVS #4
"who are you"

Dwlee town RVS #5
empty vote

Dwlee town RVS #6
"I can't believe I had to click THREE BUTTONS to get here

Absolutely foul"

Dwlee town RVS #7
empty vote, mech statement in previous post

DWLEE SCUM RVS OPENING POSTS

Dwlee scum RVS #1 <- similar
"hi koba"

Dwlee scum RVS #2
"Someone has to start the game off. Hello pony one"

Dwlee scum RVS #3
empty vote + "thanksgiving ego"

Dwlee scum RVS #4
quotes a SirCakez post w/ vote, "scum claim"

the two I marked as "similar" gave me a generally vaguely similar vibe to their intro here, acknowledging a player from a past game but in a very shallow/weak way. They're right that they generally just pick a name and write a very short comment + a few were empty votes, but the main thing that overall made me less interested in the point was scum game RVS #2 where they voted Andante, that felt a bit more over-explainy than their first vote here. All in all I didn't think it was worth posting but it did make me slightly less pinged by the intro vote, which is another reason I switched over to Meuh

323 reads lame. You and Dwlee are the two leading wagons, and it looks like the point you're arguing is more active == more pro-town. It's like you're looking for easier lims to push through instead of looking for scum, especially with the swing onto Meuh in 407. Is the reason you haven't voted for HEM that you don't believe you can build a wagon on them?

You misunderstand me here, I'm not trying to argue that I should be townread at large or seen as pro-town, but rather trying to understand how HEM could be so confident I'm scum given the early stage of the game and for pushing on a slot I saw as not likely to be confidently townread by anybody at that point.

The reason I'm not voting HEM is a) because I hate that he tried to manipulate/goad me into voting him and I refuse to allow him to bully my vote that way on principle, and b) because even though I find HEM vaguely scummy, I also don't believe I'm super likely to be correct there. I absolutely do start with easier to pressure/sort players on D1, I believe people who tunnel themselves on the hard-to-read high-activity slots are often wildly wrong in doing so and it's best to use D1 lim on lurky slots that don't have any real remote reason to townread them. I explained this in more detail in my last game I played and I stand by it here as well, it's far easier to imagine me just personality clashing/not liking HEM and being wrong than it is to find good quality reasons to townread a low activity slot that isn't yet even playing. Especially in Meuh's case as the town game marci linked did seem wildly different to her first posts in this game.

[GuiltyLion]

Actually I should have linked this post as well in talking about my philosophy re:not pushing high activity controversial slots on D1 and instead focusing on the low content lurky scummy ones

[GuiltyLion]

I also scumread NK15, the tone in their posting feels fabricated almost to the point like I'm reading a robot. The hyperfocus on the 1 scum/1 traitor thing is silly. It feels really unlikely that GL and NK15 are partnered given NK15's shift onto the wagon, so I think I'm wrong on at least one of my top reads here.

I've found it difficult to read Dwlee in the past, and this game isn't much new so far. @Dwlee, in 391, do you think GL/HEM is S/S?

also on this, I find it a little peculiar you're willing to put me at E-2 when you don't have a solid read on Dwlee and you SR NK15. maybe my brain just works differently but I feel like not being sure about Dwlee should mean you can empathize with how town in my slot would want a wagon there, and SRing NK15 should absolutely disincentivize you from voting alongside him. who are your townreads?

[GuiltyLion]

i fail to see why i should care about the opinion of someone who hasnt used the neighbourhood at all yet

If someone wonders why: I don't use a neighborhood if I don't townread all people in it. And I advise others to do the same. Everything you can say in such a neighborhood should be said in the main thread, that gives town more info.

why haven't you shared anything that marci has posted in there?

[GuiltyLion]

I think Chaos having the bravery to actually add another vote to my wagon is generally +town, I think scum that knows I'm town would be a little more tentative there, even if they vote me I think they'd play for towncred elsewhere. I don't like that his post nearly exclusively focused on me, hence why I asked about the townreads, but at least it was game advancing

Meuh's catchup was very much in line with what tictac is saying tho, I found it scummy. She shades me a little bit but not enough to merit a vote (yet), yet doesn't seem interested in seriously pushing/casing elsewhere either - definitely felt like she just wants to coast and let my wagon stay where it is while giving herself room to push it through if need be

[GuiltyLion]

I think tictac is town, I liked that he tried to defuse HEM vs GL and my wagon in general without making a big show of it

it might be possible he's buddying me but not really interested in exploring that idea when there's a lot more slots doing a whole lotta nothing

[GuiltyLion]

@monkee: dunno why u think scumlion wants to avoid a fight w u. u both easier yeet and more valuable miseet from his pow then dwee. lion refusing to 1v1 u is town indic.
@lion: red flips are inherintly more suprising tham green ones.

@lion u doing a day1 preflip associat w monkee and dwe. in case u weren't aware.
that is also silly

these posts in particular, I don't think they serve an agenda

[GuiltyLion]

seriously gamma?

[GuiltyLion]

like

on my wagon we have Dwlee's RVS vote, NK15 who virtually nobody else voting me is townreading, HEM who's peaced out for a few days, Chaos who has made One Game Relevant Post, and now you're gonna come back from pages of absence and E-1 me?

and we haven't had any other significant wagons get beyond E-4

and y'all think this is on scum???

[GuiltyLion]

I have put forth more D1 content than 4 of the 6 people voting me

combined

and y'all think this is on scum?

like yeah activity != alignment but this is an absolute dumpster fire of a wagon at this point

[GuiltyLion]

also should go without saying but any hammer here prior to an opportunity to claim under intent is a 100% scumclaim and should be treated as such

[GuiltyLion]

I dunno what it is with this playerlist but it's really fucking tiresome to try to address every person's qualms with me, to try to still proactively question/interrogate other players, to be present for every development in the game, and to be met with just all around silence and players coming out of nowhere to vote me and not fucking talk about anything I've said or anything else happening in the game

like why should I even bother to make posts like 395 or 431 if people are just gonna AFK from the thread after voting/sussing me and not good faith engage with me trying to engage with them, and then have someone else just come in here, not acknowledge

anything

and E-1 me

[GuiltyLion]

and like, yeah, I get that being a good scum player and having a few nice wins under your belt means you don't get easy townreads for "not being polished" or whatever, but I don't think I can honestly say I understand why anybody is voting me other than

1) HEM for not voting him
2) Koba for sheeping HEM?? Are there other reasons here?
3) Chaos Omega who honestly has the best case to be voting me which should be embarrassing to the rest of y'all given it's his only relevant post

like what am I even supposed to defend myself against here?? NK15's posts are non-sensical and hard to even comprehend what he's talking about half the time. I replied to Chaos Omega, gave him a reference to my last scumgame (which I think looks fairly starkly different than here both in terms of effort and my playstyle, but YMMV I guess), tried to respond to his other things he disliked, showed proof of work that I did actually look at Dwlee's meta, he just disappears.

this wagon is fueled solely by the fact that I've been around posting in the game the whole time and people don't like my argumentative style. It has nothing to do with anything remotely alignment indicative. this is why I can get away with consistently having half the postcount/effort in my scumgames as I do my town games, cause there's never a disincentive to not just

coast

, especially in games like this where people run up somebody to E-1 over nothing

[GuiltyLion]

guiltylion did u have any thoughts on gamma before gamms voted u?

not really, I thought his entry felt vaguely townie on vibes + townreading NK15 as I don't think that's a useful slot to townread as scum, but none of that really matters in comparison to a garbage E-1 vote with virtually no thoughts given on anything of importance

[GuiltyLion]

It's the other way around though, I feel? If you wanna take a look at the way I open, Trust Fall is the outlier, not this game. Dunno why you specifically pointed out Trust Fall when you've played with me in several of these games:

My opener in newb 2054

My opener in newb 2058

My opener in newb 2061

My opener in newb 2063 (I was scum for reference)

My opener in newb 2084

Tbf Trustfall is my most recent game so it may be a bit more relevant, but I still don't quite get Marci's point here?

@Dk

I still wanna know when we've played together? I don't recall playing with anyone on this list other than Marci and HEM

isn't this kinda disingenuous when you have a bunch of content immediately after these opener posts? like I ISO'd you in the first two links and already you have way more effort/solving in your first ~5 or so posts than you do here, so marci's point still stands when you compare beyond the single opening posts, you are a proactive engaged town blocky player as town and you haven't been proactive this game

[GuiltyLion]

i am fine if scum want to trade 1 for 1

I am not fine with it!! It's a terrible wagon and a terrible E-1!!

[GuiltyLion]

it's also worth calling out at this point that I responded to gamma

immediately

after he voted and he has nothing else to say? an hour later he's not even bothering to check to see what's going on in the "dead game"?

irresponsible play if he's town

[GuiltyLion]

isn't this kinda disingenuous when you have a bunch of content immediately after these opener posts? like I ISO'd you in the first two links and already you have way more effort/solving in your first ~5 or so posts than you do here, so marci's point still stands when you compare beyond the single opening posts, you are a proactive engaged town blocky player as town and you haven't been proactive this game

I guess being fair, looking at your scumgame there's a lot more activity/effort there too from just a quick surface level skim

so like I'm willing to buy that maybe you've just been busy and largely unable to play so far, but start showing some of that town radiance here please

[GuiltyLion]

I've played with Meuh quite a bit since we're friends, I often send her game links and ask her to sign up with me!! In all of those games, she's been town and I think she usually just ... has alot more to say than she already has at this point. I feel like shes usually out there very townily towning it up and being sort of like a townblock creator. So I think its weird she hasn't done much yet, i'm not sure if shes scum but I wanna see whats up yknow? !!

this was the point marci was making

you said you "don't mind her posting so far", and agreed with me on marci town vibes tho you said my point was "surface level", has your read on her changed since or do you think she's just town and wrong?

[GuiltyLion]

My issue with the treatment of your wagon comes from the lack of what i feel is tangible solving you are doing towards people and thats why i want hard pressure on you

this claim kinda feels like bullshit to me Koba as I'm sitting with it

like is your argument that I'm not doing any real solving at all? Or that my solving doesn't meet your criteria of "tangible"?

feels like a bizarre justification for your vote when you're voting alongside slots like NK15, Chaos Omega, Gamma who by any remotely fair or objective metric are doing a lot less "tangible solving". And when my (only) counterwagon Meuh is also not doing "tangible solving"

would have felt a lot more believable to me if you indicated it was a paranoia read, but instead you're just accusing me of something which feels patently unfair and untrue

[GuiltyLion]

@Dwlee - how would you describe Koba's posting towards you in the hood so far? any vibes of possible pocketing?

[GuiltyLion]

ok, what kind of player am I then, like what about my reaction to pressure has not felt to you like how I would behave as town

[GuiltyLion]

I treat everyone as their own person and not a monolith

Telegraphing a push towards me now? (;

And how does it "feel" patently untrue ROFLLLLLLLLL
Like
Let's say you're town

I think from town pov you say "that IS untrue" rather I'm confused by your word choice here.

it feels untrue cause I'm not sure I understood what specifically you meant, and I'm willing to allow for some level of disagreement around how much of my solving feels "tangible" to other people because this is a game of different perspectives

however I'm not telegraphing shit I'm literally trying to sort my wagon cause it's 100% there's scum on it and I still believe VERY FUCKIN LIKELY scum somewhere in the neighbors

[GuiltyLion]

also i think roden/gl are a potential s/s pair

lmao save this for postgame Koba

[GuiltyLion]

what if you assumed that I'm actually an intelligent player and I might have reasons for insisting it that aren't just "herpderp GL scum"

[GuiltyLion]

I'm 100% confident Roden doesn't "swoop in" to defend me like that as scum, there wouldn't be a need to

[GuiltyLion]

I'm 100% confident Roden doesn't "swoop in" to defend me like that as scum, there wouldn't be a need to

actually why tho

because I'm town and at E-1, what on earth does scum Roden gain from pushing so hard against the wagon that he attracts attention/votes instead? I'm useful to keep around scum should want me gone

I get that it will look different to someone who doesn't know my alignment but I give exactly 0% chance Roden had any scum agenda to what he posted. The better question is why do you think it's a scum-indicative action?

[GuiltyLion]

Koba literally only thinks I'm scum because I said voting GL is bad and thinks I'm not good enough to be able to accurately read someone as town. It's somehow more likely that I'm scum trying to hard defend my scum buddy...instead of town defending another townie.

ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding

[GuiltyLion]

Yes. Partnered with Roden and Testarossa(alternatively Marci). Koba and Gamma switched to Roden and dwlee unvoted after there was strong resistance to a GL lim.

ah yes,

GL is scum and anyone who ever expressed a townread on him or defended him is a partner and that is the solve

brilliant mafia play here folx

[GuiltyLion]

@lion ur thing here boils down to "too scummy to be scum", which is not persuasive.

which thing? my point on Roden?

since when is vocally fighting against a townie at E-1 a "scummy" action? in what way does it benefit scum to attempt to derail a wagon on one of the loudest and most engaged town players in the game?

again I know townies don't know my alignment, but fmpov, with the information available to me, I am fully confident Roden had no scum agenda towards defending me.

[GuiltyLion]

meuh been cool during this l-1 thing.

also on this, I disagree. The following post:

And very soon after e-1

So was did I! I posted like 10 seconds after them.
I can see Roden's perspective and frustrations come from a townie here.
I can see a townie defend GL in such a way, because e-1's bad and gamestate's bad! Not scummy to think so tbh imo
Honestly Dk I don't really get the perspective you're presenting rn

would be very easy to write as scum who knows both Roden and I are town. The "I don't get your perspective" is also to me a scummy turn of phrase, like it's engaging with Koba to disagree but with an assumption that Koba is town and not disagreeing so much as to put her foot down on anything substantial.

if your default assumption is that scum would want to get townpoints by defending me, Meuh's noncomittal/passive version is a worse look than Roden's

I also think Gamma looks worse than Chaos of people on my wagon too

[GuiltyLion]

what's happening guys is GL still scum

Yes. Partnered with Roden and Testarossa(alternatively Marci). Koba and Gamma switched to Roden and dwlee unvoted after there was strong resistance to a GL lim.

coming back to this post again

what's your read on Meuh

[GuiltyLion]

aaahhh word, I totally misunderstood and I can see your point there

[GuiltyLion]

hmm yeah I guess

"scum want me eliminated"
and
"Chaos voting me felt townie despite putting me closer to being eliminated"

aren't exactly super consistent are they

still overall don't like the Meuh passivity in contrast but yeah if Koba/Dwlee/HEM town then one of Chaos/Gamma likely scum

[GuiltyLion]

Of course any post can be made by someone of any alignment, but I feel like the ones Roden made line up with what town!Roden would logically do.
If there's a mostly undisturbed wagon on someone they don't think is scum with half the playerbase participating in it, why wouldn't they call it out and try to disturb it? The thought process behind contesting the wagon seems like one town!Roden would naturally come to.
If Roden is scum with GL, what do they really benefit from it? Why would Roden go against a solidified wagon on their partner? There's a slight chance they can shake things up, but it's unlikely.
If Roden is scum and GL is town, I also don't see why they'd be doing this? Towncred post-flip? It still draws a bunch of attention on them, so overall it doesn't seem like the option they'd choose?
When viewing the game from Roden's POV in different scenarios, to me it's more realistic for town!Roden to do what they have done.

I don't think anything in this post is egregiously wrong or anything but I still get the same vibes I've been getting from a lot of your posts that it's just careful measured takes trying to appear town rather than purposeful and organic reads

I also disagree that scum!Roden has no benefit if paired with scum!GL, like it did effectively derail the wagon, keeping a scummate alive D1 is inherently better than losing one, and capable scum could try to play off the hard defense as an antispew. It's because I know my own alignment that makes me see Roden's actions as fundamentally townie, I think if someone is suspicious of me it's not a huge leap to be suspicious of Roden, so reaching that conclusion doesn't feel totally natural to me from your slot here either

[GuiltyLion]

But I don't think that should be the first assumption, and even more I really don't think they should be today's priority.

why not? someone who's detached from a lot of the real meat/content in the game is usually where I want attention focused rather than the people duking it out

[GuiltyLion]

This seems like contradictory thinking? That you wish to push people who are prone to tunnelling for seemingly no reason, rather than mounting pressure on those who are inactive and prodding them with questions? And as scum seems like easy pickings to target tunnel-vision prone people as they'll basically dig their own grave?

I'm not sure I understand this question/comment, I think there's some kind of miscommunication here.

I don't want to push people who are prone to tunneling, if anything I think most of the time tunnel-prone people are town, rather what I'm saying is that I think tunnel behavior usually leads to bad gamestates for town. The people I wish to push on D1 are the emptier slots who I don't feel are very invested nor taking real stances in the game. early game there's usually at least one scum who can't keep up with the tryhard townies, and scum's path to winning or gameplan isn't very clear to them yet, so I tend to find better odds of success just pushing/wagoning lurkscummy people who I don't have any real reason to townread rather than someone who I get into a big fight with, if that someone is otherwise a very vocal/engaged player then my guess is I'm more likely to just be clashing with them and finding reasons to SR them due to the sheer density of noise from their slot.

a lot of scum will definitely get by me on D1 if they have the WIM for it, but I think I have better odds of catching those players in the mid-late game once we have a much clearer picture of the gamestate via flips, associatives, voting record, etc

[GuiltyLion]

i didn't scumread him for his scumread on me. i scumread him for his activity despite his scumread on me. see the difference?

scum would keep their vote on dwlee for multiple reasons. 1) it was safe 2) it doesn't have to build consensus from group up (by voting me) 3) it can still develop into a limmable wagon

I wish you had just explained your read like this instead of taking the approach of challenging me to vote you

[GuiltyLion]

I'm always scummy on vibes

[GuiltyLion]

ok so here's a readslist with a small bit of explanation but I don't have a ton of energy for it

order within the groups does not matter at all, just tiers

town: {tictac, roden, marci}
probtown: {koba, dwlee, gamma}
fuck if I know: {HEM, chaos}
scummy: {NK15, shadowgirl}
scum: {meuh}

tictac feels like the most pure slot in the game, roden again just 0% chance of defending me like that as scum, marci's star maybe falling off a tiny bit as of late but I don't see her as aligned with Meuh and I still very much think Meuh is scum

I liked a lot of Dwlee's later posting the past few days and I'm also thinking I'd trust a town!Koba to sort them in the hood. Koba is only not highest town tier by virtue of general paranoia of their scumgame, they're easily the most take charge person in the game here and I don't really object to most of what they've said - they have the wrong conclusions on roden/GL dynamic but I don't fault them for how they reached those conclusions. gamma I am iffy on, I felt a more strong dislike of his posting around the time of E-1-gate but when I challenged myself today to evaluate their explanation/justifications in response to me and others I don't really see any scumtells there and I do think his vibes don't fit what I've felt from his scumgame vibewise

HEM, I see where Roden's coming from and it does feel like at times he's tweaked his story slightly to serve whatever his current agenda is, but it's not contradictory in a fully scummy way and his SR on me clicked a bit more when I understood that his real objections were to me parking a 'safe' vote on Dwlee, I don't think that's inherently wrong to be suspicious of. waiting on more from him though

Chaos I've liked what he's posted but he isn't posting enough of it for a real townread, and if I'm looking for scum on my wagon he's in the pool of potential candidates

NK15 I think has been pushing a lot of bullshit and doing it in this extremely obstinate/confident way that I think feels surface-level town in a "it seems like his beliefs are genuine!" sense but doesn't actually demonstrate an evolving/sorting mind. like his entire gamestate view has been oriented around me being scum from the very start and has not once significantly deviated nor reassessed (I know he very briefly voted Koba but I think that was for show), and I also think he's a smarter dude than to genuinely believe in assigning scumreads to everyone who townread me like he did in 586. no evidence in my mind of him not playing to suit an agenda. also I think the initial fixation on the traitor talk was odd and possibly informed of presence of a traitor in the game. would lim with no mercy

ShadowGirl is kind of a POE pick but I don't think she's actually done anything townie? like she's giving reasonable seeming Opinions on stuff but none of it has once struck me as something that would be out of range of being faked by a capable wolf. I'm least sure of this read but I got a lot of town vibes elsewhere and she hasn't felt townie enough herself to dislodge anyone else

Meuh just feels like scum to me. not all that engaged, surface level reads/analysis, 754 is a bizarre post like she's clearly sheeping tictac, why play the "I didn't

say

I agree with tictac!!" card in response to Koba's question??

[GuiltyLion]

that tracks
you just feel a bit like you were in the white flag game (I mentioned this earlier but I wanna mention it to you directly, see your input)

I mean I think there's a similarity in that I also got into an early fight in white flag (which was a bit more to a calculated end there, but would probably feel similar with me being Very Involved and Very Riled early), but other than that I'm not sure what else you could be picking up on. Keep in mind that when I play scum I am still the same person in terms of personality and I am consciously trying to play like I would as town, so like, there should be a baseline of some similarities between my town and scum game regardless of alignment

[GuiltyLion]

also as an addendum to my readslist, I don't believe the team is like {NK15, ShadowGirl, Meuh}, like it's more likely than not there's at least one scum if not more in the tiers above bc I'm not a god of mafia or anything, but rather think of it like just a descending list of my %confidence in those slots being town

[GuiltyLion]

I'm trying to understand why DkKoba and NK15 are on opposite ends of your read spectrum due to the abundance of traitor talk as NK15 was questioning DkKoba about it?

Koba brought it up but NK15 latched onto that and pushed it hard for a handful of posts as if it were this really damning thing

I can imagine that being a scum reaction if you know there's a traitor, kinda regardless of whatever Koba's alignment is or intentions in brining it up

[GuiltyLion]

that's kind of a good example of what I mean by the obstinate-but-not-actually-critically-thinking point

like, does NK15 really believe scum!Koba, with informed knowledge of a traitor, would just casually slip immediately on gamestart and let themself get caught? I feel like two seconds of thought would lead you to Koba deserving more credit than that, yet NK15 made this theatrical-feeling performance of interrogating Koba over it and then dropped it with little to no ceremony

[GuiltyLion]

and to be clear it's not that I can't imagine NK15 being town, this could all just be personality and I wouldn't be shocked or anything

but I def don't think I have any good reasons to townread him

[GuiltyLion]

What do you think about the possibility scum!DkKoba bringing up traitor talk as a signal to traitor? I think using the hood talk with Dwlee having a weird reaction (or the fact of still being able to bring it up whatever their reaction) would be a good smoke cover for it.

I dunno, I don't have an idea how Koba would play being scum with a traitor in the set-up but it just feels like a really clumsy/obvious 'signal' to me, and IMO usually you would just sit back and look for the traitor to signal to you somehow?

Like if Koba is a traitor, then I would think they'd be confident enough in their ability to not get eliminated that they could steer the game and subtly signal to scum rather than immediately start talking about a traitor. And if Koba is a non-traitor scum, I think they'd know they should just be traitor-hunting secretly instead of again immediately just yolo bringing it up. So neither explanation feels especially compelling to me as to scum!agenda in bringing it up in the first place.

However, I think if NK15 is scum (either traitor or not), his play could be trying to either distance (if he is non-traitor scum and thinks Koba is a traitor) or possibly signal (if Koba is actually scum and NK15 is a traitor), OR if NK15 scum and Koba town, an attempt to push/scumread a townie who he thinks might be informed in some way. So in all worlds I'd rather yeet NK15 over Koba, and really only look at Koba as a possible scum if NK15 flips traitor. and even then there's still a bunch of day play stuff that makes me suspect NK15 and feel townpings from Koba

there's also the worlds where there's just no traitor in the set-up and NK15 thought it'd be a plausible fake reason to push on Koba. so basically just, a lot of roads lead to scum!NK15 whereas comparatively a lot fewer lead to scum!Koba, at least in terms of the traitor point specifically

[GuiltyLion]

why does this wagon even exist? has Meuh been scummy? #512 is townie imo

I think 512 isn't a hard post to fake as scum, what makes you think it's townie? Even there I don't like how she basically excuses herself from having to try to sort marci properly

my scumread on Meuh has less to do with the actual contents of her posts by and large and more to do with the fact that she feels divested from the game, like she pops in every now and then to comment on stuff but I don't have a great sense of who she scumreads and why and I feel there's a lot of interesting arguments/discussions/players-in-the-game that she just says nothing about

[GuiltyLion]

actually speaking of 512, did marci ever give a reply/thoughts on it? Cause rereading I noticed an inconsistency in what they're both saying about each other

In all of those games, she's been town and I think she usually just ... has alot more to say than she already has at this point. I feel like shes usually out there very townily towning it up and being sort of like a townblock creator. So I think its weird she hasn't done much yet, i'm not sure if shes scum but I wanna see whats up yknow? !!

This feels like marci is saying she usually sees Meuh as town, "townily towning it up", and even in this post/game marci doesn't say she scumreads Meuh rather it's more like an absence-of-towniness read

but Meuh says:

Marci scumreads me a lot and I scumread her a lot.
[...]
Town!Marci is fairly likely to get bad vibes from me in general

that doesn't fit with what marci said about how Meuh is usually "townily towning it up"?

marci/Meuh, what gives? which of you is wrong here?

[GuiltyLion]

Aside from the potential of it being a signal or not, there's still the aspect of the general play itself; what do you think about just DkKoba's dynamic with Dwlee, which I have given my thoughts about in #733?

I think you raise a good point about Koba's Dwlee read being a bit nebulous, but I'm also putting some stock into Dwlee's assessment of Koba in 642 as not feeling especially pocket-y.

overall I'd say these points are good ones to keep Koba out of 'firmly town locked' territory, but I don't see myself wanting to vote/eliminate them over these, especially on D1. If I knew with certainty that you are town and my POE was a bit narrower, I'd look more critically at Koba

[GuiltyLion]

Meuh just feels like scum to me. not all that engaged, surface level reads/analysis, 754 is a bizarre post like she's clearly sheeping tictac, why play the "I didn't say I agree with tictac!!" card in response to Koba's question??

what do you think about Meuh's response on why they sheeped tictac?

I didn't like that nearly all of her points were just general gamestate stuff rather than specifically things she didn't like about Chaos herself, other than this one:

-The point made about Chaos’s entrance seemed fair to me (even though it also applies to me )

this maybe kinda gives me ever so slight town ping for the unabashed self-awareness of it but it's not unfakeable as scum

[GuiltyLion]

no, I'm thinking NK15 or Chaos as most likely scumspects on my wagon

[GuiltyLion]

I think Roden's had a lot more conviction behind it than Meuh's

I think I said this previously but I can vibe with people being confused/alarmed by how strongly Roden reacted to that wagon on me, however with the knowledge that I am town, I do not think that he would ever react that way as scum. Meuh felt a bit more backseat in her defense and also was after Roden had already started defending me.

the timing is kinda funny with how quickly it was Roden->Meuh, but I do think Roden gets more bravery townpoints for being the first voice, even if it was only by a couple minutes

[GuiltyLion]

Do you think Roden's defense could have only come from town?

Yep. I'd need to see a really compelling argument for why Roden does any of this as scum assuming I am town. I'm more sympathetic to a GL-Roden S/S belief than any T/S idea.

[GuiltyLion]

I feel like if it was the 'easy' vote (for scum to get out a townie), then there would be more votes/pushes in that direction up until this point (particularly when we're at 2 days to deadline), and I'm not seeing that happening, but that instead there's quite a bit of resistance/hesitance from a lot of people (also agree that it feels like others are trying vouch for them and that Chaos hasn't done anything particularly to deserve such a clear) and now this sudden, fast attempt to build a HEM wagon.

doesn't all this apply to the Meuh wagon as well? I agree the movement towards HEM is skeevy but I feel it could just as much be resistance to Meuh wagon

[GuiltyLion]

I think if we’re looking for scum who are/are going to be pushing on me, some players have me neut/lean scum sorted or haven’t said much about my alignment, and I think there could be scum there.
They can just leave the door open if the push on me does gain momentum
Chaos, NK15, ShadowGirl, Dwlee, Roden and tictac all fit the bill to varying extents, although note I don’t necessarily scumread them, I just think the general position they’re in is a bit scummy, 2 scum in that group wouldn’t surprise me

this also feels like scum analysis

you have 5 players here you are accusing of the same behavior and yet trying to fear monger about some combination of them being scum, when the majority would be town by definition

I would expect a townie to be generally more interested in trying to sort/discern between those five.

[GuiltyLion]

wait it's SIX players not five lmao

[GuiltyLion]

I'll do actual tryharding tomorrow but NK15 stlll feels kinda town to me

is anyone actually against limming Meuh? I see all this peripheral activity on alternative wagons but I don't see anyone making a good case for town!Meuh - though I haven't really read at all since my last posts other than a 2 second skim to see whether anything major happened. I will have time+energy to play tomorrow morning (8 hours or so from now)

[GuiltyLion]

Roadmap for Day two in case you mislim me:

Massclaim

.(it is the

day before MxLo already, and with what koba said we really, really need to take care of that via massclaim.

)
Consider HEM and GuiltyLion as lims unless cleared by claims(e.g. cop innocent). Take a second look at my neighbor, Marci, as well.
Do not, under any circumstances, clear koba for anything except associatives and hard clears. I currently think koba is town but koba is too good at hiding their scuminess. In doubt, execute Koba if HEM flips green.

namely this post giving me townvibes

also I said "still" feels kinda town in my last post but I was mixed up with something else so apologies if that was confusing

I did get town vibes from skimming his reaction on the last two pages tho

[GuiltyLion]

it's fake. why is his scumread of me so strong? why you? those reads don't make sense. they're made up. you're falling for it.

how do you expect scum would react under pressure?

I agree that they don't make a lot of sense but I don't think that necessarily means they're made up

The thing I liked about his reaction under pressure is that none of it feels designed to avoid spew, and the paranoia around Koba feels genuine to me as well

[GuiltyLion]

[6] GuiltyLion: Dwlee99, Not Known 15, humaneatingmonkey, DkKoba, ChaosOmega, Gamma Emerald
[3] Meuh: tictac, marcistar, GuiltyLion
[1] Dwlee99: Testarossa
[1] tictac: Meuh
[1] humaneatingmonkey: Roden

With 12 players alive, 7 votes are needed for an elimination.

D1: deadline: (expired on 2022-03-29 21:32:48)

[4] humaneatingmonkey: Not Known 15, Gamma Emerald, Roden, Meuh
[3] Meuh: marcistar, GuiltyLion, DkKoba
[2] ChaosOmega: tictac, ShadowGirl
[1] Not Known 15: humaneatingmonkey
[1] Gamma Emerald: ChaosOmega

[1] Not voting: Dwlee99

With 12 players alive, 7 votes are needed for an elimination.

D1: deadline: (expired on 2022-03-29 21:32:48)

pay attention

what I see here is a lot of slots avoiding a Meuh wagon. I don't think anyone who has voted Meuh in either of these VCs is scum looking to take advantage of her. and I think Gamma looks especially odd in this light, when did he develop a scumread on HEM and why? Like is it really just 862? And I don't buy the meme reason to avoid give Meuh a "d1 pass" either, and interactions between them are stilted as well

[GuiltyLion]

Dwlee I still don’t wanna fully trust but when I wanted to go after him earlier no one gave a shit

when was this?

[GuiltyLion]

I townread HEM a lot more as of the past couple days worth of activity

I fully agree Gamma's angle on the Meuh wagon feels disingenuous/scummy, in either a S-S or WKing town

I could pivot there if needed for votes, but at the same time I don't really find Meuh any less scummy

I don't want to go NK15 today tho

[GuiltyLion]

koba why wont scum bus here

the thing is there's no value to bussing at this point if Meuh is scum, there's no towncred to be had joining there anymore at this point

[GuiltyLion]

hey gg everybody! Thank you Norwee for modding was a smoothly run and enjoyable game! I kinda stopped following at some point so I don't know how exactly everything played out. Well played by Koba I had them as solid town and reading back I feel like a fool how easily I gave up that Roden/I were masons lol. and def sucks that there were some replacements those can definitely fuck over a whole gamestate.

also great job by Enchant, tictac, Shadow, Mathblade, Roden pulling it through in the end!