Mini 1997: The Clownspiracy (Game Over!)

[Kiana Kaslana]

Hello. This is Kiana Kaslana checking in.

[Kiana Kaslana]

hamburger beef
cheeseburger gamma
double cheeseburger wh4t
triple cheeseburger rask
mcdouble kokichi
bacon mcdouble kiana
big mac maki
egg mcmuffin kaito
sausage mcgriddles bujaber
quarter pounder with cheese brassherald
chicken mcnuggets archwing
mcchicken cedrick
filet-o-fish stefanB

fries : scum
hasbrowns : scummy
apple pie: towny
mcflurry : town

What does this mean? It's a confusing post that seems like it wants to seem useful but it is actually huge piles of nonsense. Scumpoints to Raskol for this one.

[Kiana Kaslana]

VOTE: maki

This is the most nonsense vote I've ever seen. Why Maki? And why are you happy about it?

Huge FoS on Raskol

[Kiana Kaslana]

maybe you're a miller because you're scum :thinkyface:

Maybe you're bullying Maki because you're the real scum!

[Kiana Kaslana]

Nameclaim? Normally there is a reason why someone is a miller, that is hinted in the role-PM.

This is very suspicious rolefishing very early in the game. We're all clowns, of course it doesn't take too much imagination that someone would be a miller for clowning around! Huge scumpoints to this.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Hm, somethink is fishy about that.
Why is Krusty a miller?
Why does Maki not know the name of her own role? This is clearly readable in my PM.

Another huge rolefishing for Maki's role, even after she claimed Miller I doubt that is the full extent of her role, because Mathdino doesn't create a simple miller role for no reason. Not a good look for StefanB.

[Kiana Kaslana]

don't you do that anyways

Spoiler:

This reaction feels so ecchi!

[Kiana Kaslana]

VOTE: StefanB

Serious vote. I dislike his reaction to the miller claim, he felt forced and slightly LAMIST IMO.

I would appreciate others' thoughts on his entrance.

I'm glad that someone else sees the scummy things I'm seeing from StefanB. Town points for this man.

[Kiana Kaslana]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
VOTE: wh4t
Hi! Remember me?

This is very bad, especially when I've just given townpoints to Wh4t. The vote here is for no reasons especially when there are good real reasons to vote real people at this point in the game. It is no longer RVS. So, big scumpoints to Archwing for still pretending that it is.

[Kiana Kaslana]

A agree that reaction is rather LAMISTy
VOTE: StefanB

A good look for Gamma Emerald.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Wh4t, GE: Interesting that LAME (which I don't disagree with I am not funny) is the point you are stresing.
And you don't think that the question why Maki is a miller could give us some hint about the scumteam?

Hi Stefan, I may be misinterpreting your playstyle as LAMIST (Not lame). I'm happy to watch you a bit longer.

I don't understand what the point of asking a player "why they received their role" is? If scum or town I don't see how a response would be AI for you. How would it hint about a scumteam?

It's pretty obvious why a miller would be in the mix and I think it would be anti-town to delve further into that discussion.

On that note.

VOTE: Cedrick

Why did you change your vote to Cedrick for no reason? Your earlier townpoints have been deducted.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Hi Archwing, good to see you again. Do you have any initial impressions from the other players?

negative, commander.

even if I did, I don't really trust my day 1 reads, let alone from RVS. I'm more of a late-game player tbh.

all I know is that brassherald might be a PL, apparently he can be awkward af, so be wary i suppose?

probably gonna lay low and try to sort some things from the sidelines rn

This is huge nonsense. Feels like fluff trying to seem useful but actually a huge bunch of nonsense. Massive scumpoints to Archwing.

[Kiana Kaslana]

maki how do you feel about rolling miller this game? have you ever played as miller before?

last game i was in with a miller, it was a shitshow cause some asshat pushed "always lynch claimed millers d1"

This is a useless question with a useless story. It's like asking the waitress at the pizza place if she likes pizza. "Last time I had pizza it was a shit show because a kid ran over and crashed into my pizza and got pizza all over him!". As we can see in this example, nobody, including the waitress, cares for this small talk and that dumb story.

Big big scumpoints.

VOTE: Archwing

[Kiana Kaslana]

VOTE: Beefster

I think you may be rolefishing while trying to make it look like it's not serious.
But if you aren't serious that's an interesting place to put a non-serious/rvs vote given the VC

This is very very selective considering that StefanB did even more scummy rolefishing earlier on but you didn't even say a word about him. I'm adding more scumpoints to your debt.

[Kiana Kaslana]

I expect this will confuse people so I'll pre-emptively clarify
asking about something straight up like people are with maki is okay (or well probably nai imo) because it's brave and you get attention, but approaching it like semi serious is a little concerning to me

It's very hard to believe that you believe what you're saying. How is asking if the famous McDonald mascot is in the game even remotely close or severe as directly rolefishing for a player's powers in the game and their flavour?

Big scumpoints for you.

[Kiana Kaslana]

maki how do you feel about rolling miller this game? have you ever played as miller before?

last game i was in with a miller, it was a shitshow cause some asshat pushed "always lynch claimed millers d1"

eh it's fine I expect to be policy lynched at some point because a lot of people say "Millers can't live to end game" so w/e

I am never letting anybody policy lynch you <3

[Kiana Kaslana]

btw never lynch wh4t this game.

Wh'/?

Is it because you have knowledge that he is town because you are scum? It really seems like it. I am townreading Wh4t, but I cannot see anybody ever being so confident about a townread on Page 4, unless they are scum and know it for a fact.

Big scumpoints.

[Kiana Kaslana]

wait a second, why is no one weighing in on beefster

Becauses you are scum trying to look useful by trying to tunnel a player for nonsensical reasons!

[Kiana Kaslana]

Gamma, skimming over your past games I see that you get scum read quite frequently as town. Why do you think that is?

Pedit Cedrick, you've proved 1 of your posts are non-fluff and I'm not even entirely convinced that set-up spec should qualify as something game-progressing, but I'll be generous. Naming a clown absolutely does not count as AI content. Apologies if you feel I've misrepped you. I'm feeling your response is genuine.

How do you kill a circus clown?

Go for the juggler.

I never said it had to be AI. But it wasn’t fluff. My statement still holds true. Your expectation of posts in rvs is unrealistic. Not every player is going through serious post every time they post. I certainly am not. Now I do have to limit my more useless posts due to the rules, there is still going to be posts I make that aren’t always going to be game advancing as will others and you know what? That’s ok.

Even now, there isn’t much to go off of. I’d say the scummiest person so far is you for your unrealistic expectation but having a different opinion isn’t AI. I don’t really see much to comment on atm but I haven’t been reading very intently. I’m in an altered mental state atm so I’m not prepared to do in-depth shit right now.

P.edit - lol he hasn’t earned that designation yet. He’s in a “wouldn’t mind a lynch” list right now.

I love your jokes by the way. I don't think scum does it, so massive townpoints to you.

[Kiana Kaslana]

What would you guys say if I said I wasn't town?

I'd say, "are you clowning with us?"

[Kiana Kaslana]

Chronological progression:

Someone claims Miller
People talk about it
Someone refs wiki which states optimal play
Beefster says claiming Miller was bad

And now there is nothing worth weighing in on?

I said I was gonna lie low but fuck sakes.

What do you call a woman falling in love with a carnie? Juggle Fever

Not that it matters, I don’t recal anyone saying it’s optimal play to do that.

What’s wrong with two people having a different opinion? Beefster not sharing somebody else’s opinion doesn’t mean they are scummy for it.

I’m more interested in you saying you were going to intentionally lay low. My opinion of you of a player has dropped because it’s never acceptable to lay low. It’s actually pretty scummy.

VOTE: arch

Even more massive townpoints to Cedrick for coming to the same conclusions as I did on Arch, he is really scummy.

[Kiana Kaslana]

What do you call a woman falling in love with a carnie? Juggle Fever

Unfortunately, I don't get this joke at all. What's a carnie? Please explain.

[Kiana Kaslana]

hey koki. you claimed not town? wanna talk about it?

Don't put words in my mouth.

VOTE: Arch

Townpoints to you for this good vote.

[Kiana Kaslana]

okay lets start with
VOTE: BuJaber
wagon this plz

Nonsense random wagon on a random person to deflect from the Very Good wagon on him.

This is 100% clown scum.

[Kiana Kaslana]

I figured out why this game feels a little weird. Usually there's both scumhunting and townhunting/cohesion, but here it's like all scumhunting.

I still like my town reads. I'll add Kokichi to the pile too. I was tempted to add Arch, but I'm more hesitant now.

What do you make of Archwing's behaviour on this page?

Pedit isn't rolefishing based on role titles virtually impossible in a non-breakable set-up?

This is pretty good analysis, townpoints for you.

[Kiana Kaslana]

I think we lynch Arch

I think you are town!

[Kiana Kaslana]

Okay... so adding up the townpoints and scumpoints... here we go.

Lady Kiana Kaslana

Town

Cedrick

+++++

Kokichi Oma

++

Wh4t

+

Gamma Emerald

+

Beefster

0

Maki Harukawa

<3

Kaito Momota

0

BuJaber

0

brassherald

0

StefanB

--

Raskolnikov

---

Archwing

-----

Scum

[Kiana Kaslana]

What do you call a woman falling in love with a carnie? Juggle Fever

Unfortunately, I don't get this joke at all. What's a carnie? Please explain.

Whenever the cashier at the grocery store asks my dad if he would like the milk in a bag he replies, 'No, just leave it in the carton!'

Carnie is a carnival worker. A juggler would be somebody who may work at a carnival

Juggle fever is a play on jungle fever.

What's jungle fever?

Man, I feel dumb asking to explain a joke.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Hi Kiana. Efficient, I like it. I can agree with your Arch and StefanB reads. The Rask read seems a little biased from the start in regards to his opening RVS vote on Maki; your deduction based on that, I initially thought was in jest, however you seem to have built on it looking for reasons for scum Rask more so than town Rask. I do agree that his hard town read of me was suspicious but in the context of his ISO I still lean town overall. Perhaps you're more familiar with him?

I moved my vote to Cedrick to get a reaction and I'm growing more convinced that he is heavily confirmation biased town. So I can agree with that read too.

I find it odd that you have not weighed in on the content from Maki and Brass so far.

I'm happy to vote Arch later in the day if nothing changes but I'm remiss to vote the only person familiar with me right now.

UNVOTE:

Hi!

I've never played with Raskol before, so we're starting on equal ground here.

Maki and Brass appears to not have made any content that warrants alignment-indicative townpoints. This is reflected in my list above.

Raskol appears to be scummy and has obtained many scumpoints. The specific posts in question have been flagged above, and the number of scumpoints is also reflected in the above list.

Considering that I read the game from start to finish, I give extra credit to players who obtain the same conclusions that I do, while I'm reading the thread. It proves that they are working from a town mindset, with good initiative, and without my intervention.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Do you not find suspicious the fact that Raskol scumreads Beefster for asking about Ronald Mcdonald but turns a blind eye to Stefan (coincidentally, a scumread of mine too) who blatantly rolefishes for both flavour and role?

It's like yelling at the person who just farted in the room but completely ignoring that hobo taking a poop on the floor.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Raskol isn't just scumreading Beefster, he's making a huge fuss of it, tunneling Beefster almost, so that he doesn't have to scumhunt anywhere else or provide useful reads or thoughts on other players. It's a classic strategy that I see time and time again.

[Kiana Kaslana]

i got a n0 flavor cop on him. he's pennywise.

I really think arch is jester here. He's just too scummy.

W4 seemed too tryhard to be scum at first but some of his pushes seem overly aggressive and based on his subjective interpretation. Scumlean.

Brass reads town to me; not sure where people are getting scum vibes from.

Kiana made a pretty good intro to the game. I really hope I don't have to read 20 posts every time she wants to say something but if she's going to continue to deliver quality content it's worth it.

Koki is policy lynch material. You really have a talent for walking on the fence of scummy/NAI.

Raska going off on beef for his Ronald McDonald comment seems strange. You made a post that makes anyone who doesn't live in a jungle think about mcdonald's.. why is it scummy for him to mention it? So what if you are ronald? How would that tell us your role/alignment?
VOTE: Raska [/v]

Miller claim probably just means miller. Likely town but anyway millers don't survive till end game. We vig or lynch before lylo. Considering mod gave out fakeclaims I don't think anybody will be counterclaimed. That defeats the purpose.



Rest are null I think.

Pedit - oh forgot stefan: didn't like his opening post RVS means we ignore most of the post but focus on the kittle things. If it was a joke he's making about me always being scum why would he feel the need to state that I was scum in one game he was also in? A joke is a joke doesn't need to be backed by evidence. If he is serious he's just wrong and would imply his RVS post isn't and RVS post which is just scummy too.
Also not sure what he's expecting people to say about miller. Making a big deal out of nothing if you ask me.

What do you call a woman falling in love with a carnie? Juggle Fever

Unfortunately, I don't get this joke at all. What's a carnie? Please explain.

Whenever the cashier at the grocery store asks my dad if he would like the milk in a bag he replies, 'No, just leave it in the carton!'

Carnie is a carnival worker. A juggler would be somebody who may work at a carnival

Juggle fever is a play on jungle fever.

What's jungle fever?

Man, I feel dumb asking to explain a joke.

I'm going to try and explain this one without sounding too terrible but Jungle Fever is basically what they used to say about the white person in an interracial couple.

Kiana is probably town, by the way.

Something is up with Arch, and it's not just the fact that he's been pushing to policy lynch me before I even did anything.

Raska is off too, I'm kind of confused as to why you made a post to look like Ronald McDonald, then got upset when someone was asking about you softing Ronald McDonald. Please explain why you made the original post.

I withdraw my labelling of Wh4t as Mr. Overachiever, maybe just Mr Achiever now.

BuJaber's first post is kind of okay.

Cedrick is making bad jokes and I love it, but also seems to be working towards gamesolving.

Still not feeling the Gamma town, though. Keeping my vote there.

And Kokichi's open is NAI, he does that every game.

Very good posts from these two. Very good reads and reasonings provided for each. Townpoints for both.

[Kiana Kaslana]

I'm going to try and explain this one without sounding too terrible but Jungle Fever is basically what they used to say about the white person in an interracial couple.

Oh... I see. Thanks for explaining it. I learned a new word today.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Hi, I am back.

VOTE: kiana

Was going to wait for response first but I have mixed feelings on arch wagon.
Feels like overexaggerating reads and really trying to get hard judgments where it doesn't feel realistic. There is some complexity to her credit but I'm not feeling it as genuine.

VOTE: Kiana

Wow, my scumread is voting me. Congratulations, your scumpoints have been doubled. It proves that I'm right on the mark.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Ras Has 33 post, content:

i think it's best to ignore the claim for now, vote was rvs

at last for the first 12 votes, am I missing something?

I figured out why this game feels a little weird. Usually there's both scumhunting and townhunting/cohesion, but here it's like all scumhunting.

That is somethink else that I found interesting, how much do people activly townhunt in this game on the first 24 hours, for me that is the moment when my reads are very smal.

Okay there are some reads, but for this many posts there is very little substance.

VOTE: Raskolnikov

Can be that I am chancing my mind when I am true with every player.

Townpoints for this good vote, but

Actually

Unvote

:

I don't know how I feel about Beefster pushing it and Archwing following.

It was removed within two posts. Nothing could have possibly happened within these two posts, so not only the townpoints have been rescinded, but there is also a penalty. The vote almost feels like a scam to earn townpoints but actually wanting to vote correct scum Raskol. So, in total this gained some scumpoints.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Cedric and Kiana (will have to be very careful not to confusse all the players with Anime-names, sorry If I do): Both are still on my list for closer inspection, I am not sure what to make of them.

How is Cedric an anime name? It's a very common western name, please do not give excuses as to why you may not want to form a read on the towniest player on my list. Kiana isn't a common name but it isn't necessarily an anime/Japanese name either. I mean, in my case it is, but it's the same situation as Naomi, which happens to be a common African American name as well.

I find it difficult to believe you cannot come to a conclusion to, in my perspective, the exact two towniest people in the game. Scumpoints.

[Kiana Kaslana]

btw never lynch wh4t this game.

Wh'/?

Is it because you have knowledge that he is town because you are scum? It really seems like it. I am townreading Wh4t, but I cannot see anybody ever being so confident about a townread on Page 4, unless they are scum and know it for a fact.

Big scumpoints.

I mean, you could like, ask about the read but okay MASSIVE scumpoints.

Why. Wh'/. Don't get the joke? Loser.

Giving fake scumpoints, gets you more scumpoints. I already asked.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Do you not find suspicious the fact that Raskol scumreads Beefster for asking about Ronald Mcdonald but turns a blind eye to Stefan (coincidentally, a scumread of mine too) who blatantly rolefishes for both flavour and role?

Okay, so this is actually showing some level of thinking. Stefan's reaction made more sense in the moment and he was very upfront. Beefster asked in joking way wrt me and like put bullshit shade on maki for being miller.

Trying to townread me now because he knows I am town and correctly caught him. He cannot possibly force a lynch on me without himself getting exposed pretty badly. Add on to the fact that literally nobody, except him, is voting me, puts him in a very bad spot. Even more scumpoints.

[Kiana Kaslana]

And the rolefishing:

I didn't rolefish!!!!!!!!

I asked if the claim was real or a joke. (We were in RVS and I don't know the players involved)
I asked for a name with the claim and if there was a reason why this person is a miller.

I have only very old meta on millers. My main meta is unfortunatly tigereaten. And if I remember correctly as a miller I was grilled more than once about the last point. (It was a soccer-Upick and I chose a German player, but the mods were fans of England)
I thought those question as standard. I see now that my plan is outdated in that fashion.

Then I asked why Maki did not remember the name of her role.

Can any of you who are stating I was rolefishing how any of this was going after the role? What is the reason for a potential mafia-me to do that?

What is the reason for a potential mafia to learn a townie's role? Hmm, I wonder. Maybe so that it will give you information and know whether Maki is a threat to shoot tonight or not.

[Kiana Kaslana]

btw never lynch wh4t this game.

Wh'/?

Is it because you have knowledge that he is town because you are scum? It really seems like it. I am townreading Wh4t, but I cannot see anybody ever being so confident about a townread on Page 4, unless they are scum and know it for a fact.

Big scumpoints.

I mean, you could like, ask about the read but okay MASSIVE scumpoints.

You know what that's probably why I don't like it: it's making reads rather than asking questions and legitimately sorting.
VOTE: Kiana Kaslana

Scumpoints to you for this bad vote. Why would I ask questions to my scumreads if I know they're already scum? I don't see a need. Why are you protecting Raskol anyhow. That's bonus scumpoints for you. You're taken off the townreads list.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Do you not find suspicious the fact that Raskol scumreads Beefster for asking about Ronald Mcdonald but turns a blind eye to Stefan (coincidentally, a scumread of mine too) who blatantly rolefishes for both flavour and role?

Okay, so this is actually showing some level of thinking. Stefan's reaction made more sense in the moment and he was very upfront. Beefster asked in joking way wrt me and like put bullshit shade on maki for being miller.

or maybe not?
UNVOTE:

The scumpoints have been rescinded for now, but you get a small penalty for semi-protecting Raskol.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Arch has 34 posts, I see a few "reaction tests" and no scum hunting.

VOTE: Arch

Townpoints to brassherald for this good vote.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Sorry buddy.

VOTE: Archwing

I would usually give townpoints for this good vote, but there is a maximum cap on these. Since Wh4t already hit the cap, it can't go higher from this small gesture. But, a pat on the back for you.

[Kiana Kaslana]

town to scum,

{archwing}
{bujaber, koki, stef}
{cedrick, maki}
{wh4t, gamma, brass, kaito, beef} ****
{kiana, rask}

* = null line. above it are slight townleans, nothing more.

BuJaber bothers me because he seemed to be pandering to Kiana on his entrance e.g. his read on Stefan. It also bothered me that he had me as his only scum lean, yet he voted for Rask (again following Kiana's lead) for something he termed strange. When I pushed him to explain his scum read on me, he talked to me from the perspective he knew I was town. I mean, telling someone that their playstyle is "aggressive" and that it's not the best way to get responses from others is not a valid reason to scumread someone even if accurate. It felt like he was trying quite unnaturally to be reasonable to both me and those reading his posts (200,201). I find both his intent and approach suspect towards me.

In regards to Arch, he called him too scummy and reasoned that he must but a jester; however when Gamma pointed out that Jesters do not exist in this set-up, he said thanks but neglected to readjust his read of you.

In summary, so far it's all trying to look good and busy without actually doing anything I'd consder towny.

In fact I'm more confident in my BuJaber read than I am of my read on you.

VOTE: BuJaber

Arch what are your thoughts on BuJaber? He looks like a big town read to you.

Pat on the back rescinded for this vote. Why are you scumreading Bujaber? He has townpoints. I don't agree that following my reads is bad, when the fact is that my reads are good. This optimal to play to wincon.

[Kiana Kaslana]

don't really like kiana's intro, but probtown

...??What?

Good catch. Archwing calls me "probtown" but then in that nonsensical reads list he puts me as scum. Obviously, I've caught Archwing too, so he has no choice but to scumread me. Townpoints to Kokichi, massive scumpoints to Archwing.

[Kiana Kaslana]

I recall quite a few criticisms on Kiana's "point system" scumhunting. It's not AI. I've done it both as town and as scum. Her methods might be strange, but they're not scummy. Slight town lean here for making good points on 191 and 192

The system isn't horrible but Kiana didn't seem to ask much questions, and it's kinda against meta for her to do that method

What do you know about my meta? The only completed game we have involved you self-hammering my slot and throwing the game for town.

[Kiana Kaslana]

V2

Lady Kiana Kaslana

Town

Cedrick

+++++

Kokichi Oma

+++

Wh4t

++

brassherald

++

Bujaber

+

Gamma Emerald

0.5

Beefster

0

Maki Harukawa

<3

Kaito Momota

0

StefanB

---

Raskolnikov

-----

Archwing

------

Scum

[/quote]

[Kiana Kaslana]

Congratulations, your scumpoints have been doubled. It proves that I'm right on the mark.

What's the maximum number of scumpoints?

You'll be dead before you hit the max, don't worry about it.

[Kiana Kaslana]

VOTE: Kiana Kaslana

Why are you not rescinding BuJaber's townpoints for his scum read on me Princess?

I think I've had enough of the false bravado.

I might have missed it. Let me take a look.

[Kiana Kaslana]

I have looked. Bujaber didn't vote you, so he doesn't get scumpoints. In fact, I think he is trying to pressure you and sort you, which should usually get him townpoints, but he is doing in a non-alignment indicative way, so that's no points. Have I answered your question?

[Kiana Kaslana]

I'm tempted to give free townpoints to people who call me Princess Kiana but we all know how well that worked out the last time.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Kiana is an okay lynch I guess, but I want Arch flipped.

Why is Kiana an okay lynch?

I'm voting Arch with you, perhaps even before you, do you think we're bussing?

[Kiana Kaslana]

<3

[Kiana Kaslana]

Can't tell if I can't see why Kiana is scum out of bias or I really can't see it.
Can someone explain to me why she's scum danke.

Only scum are scumreading me dearie~

[Kiana Kaslana]

Except for Wh4t but he isn't scumreading me as much as trying to get the attention of Princess Kiana

[Kiana Kaslana]

@arch
would you be willing to vote kiana with me?

Mate, I really do not care if my scumreads vote on me. Weird that you have to make an exaggerated theatric to publically call for your buddy to vote me, that suggests scum do not have daytalk. That makes the game easier for us, I guess.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Kiana is an okay lynch I guess, but I want Arch flipped.

Why is Kiana an okay lynch?

I'm voting Arch with you, perhaps even before you, do you think we're bussing?

Not before me, I don't believe. And I pointed out some of your posts earlier. If you really townread me as much as you say you do, shouldn't you have seen them before?

Seen what? Obviously I don't agree with your pointing out of my posts but I believe I was asking you an entirely different question. Do you think we are bussing?

[Kiana Kaslana]

@arch
would you be willing to vote kiana with me?

Mate, I really do not care if my scumreads vote on me. Weird that you have to make an exaggerated theatric to publically call for your buddy to vote me, that suggests scum do not have daytalk. That makes the game easier for us, I guess.

I'm not your mate, buddy.

I'm not your buddy, mate.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Archwing: Accepted.

Want to state somethink re last game. Me towards Mulch- you towards Moz, no big difference.
You were nightkilled and I think I looked better because how the next 2 days went.

@Mod: lol

i got nk'd that game, by BuJaber, 'cause i had tunneled him previous to Moz and had him SR'd, and so he killed me out of WIFOM.

But i'm not referencing that game for my town deathtunnel (oops), i referenced it with regards to misrepresentation, cause if you recall I had that blip with the quoting thing where I removed some the quote unintentionally, allegedly altering the meaning of it.

that's the shit i'm trying to correct in my life

I might be a sucker for tone. But this seems genuine and arch's latest posts have been a lot better than his initial posts.

Let me settle this for anyone who doesn't get it:
Kokichi (the character) is from a video game who is known for lying and Kokichi (the player) follows that gimmick a lot so his first post was very clearly a lie or him wanting us to think it etc so it was NAI and didn't mean anything.
Arch questioned him on it and Kokichi said "Don't put words in my mouth" when Arch didn't do that at all Arch just called him out on the exact statement Kokichi made so he's lying and it's stupidly annoying
seeing how he turned it serious he can be scummy
Pedit: Sup?

This is the correct interpretation of what happened. Anyone disagreeing is twisting facts or misunderatanding.

town to scum,

{archwing}
{bujaber, koki, stef}
{cedrick, maki}
{wh4t, gamma, brass, kaito, beef} ****
{kiana, rask}

* = null line. above it are slight townleans, nothing more.

BuJaber bothers me because he seemed to be pandering to Kiana on his entrance e.g. his read on Stefan. It also bothered me that he had me as his only scum lean, yet he voted for Rask (again following Kiana's lead) for something he termed strange. When I pushed him to explain his scum read on me, he talked to me from the perspective he knew I was town. I mean, telling someone that their playstyle is "aggressive" and that it's not the best way to get responses from others is not a valid reason to scumread someone even if accurate. It felt like he was trying quite unnaturally to be reasonable to both me and those reading his posts (200,201). I find both his intent and approach suspect towards me.

In regards to Arch, he called him too scummy and reasoned that he must but a jester; however when Gamma pointed out that Jesters do not exist in this set-up, he said thanks but neglected to readjust his read of you.

In summary, so far it's all trying to look good and busy without actually doing anything I'd consder towny.

In fact I'm more confident in my BuJaber read than I am of my read on you.

VOTE: BuJaber

Arch what are your thoughts on BuJaber? He looks like a big town read to you.

This is a rediculous case. Why should I vote you when I think Rask is scummier and I still want to sort you?

As for arch at that time I thought he was so scummy he must be jester. When gamma corrected me then by default arch becomes a scumread. Do you expect me to go from jester to townread? I have now read more posts from arch and he's a townread now.

You are guessing who is scum and then trying to inflate your cases against these guesses. I was wrong you're not being overly aggressive. You're making up things just to fit your fictional version of the game state.

I'm trying to look busy? What are you doing then?
And what's wrong with voting for someone that someone else has? I agreed with Kiana that rask is scummy.

VOTE: wh4t

You got your wish. I won't be voting rask day 1. You have leaped above all scumreads.

-koki I don't like your entrance to the game. I don't like that you joke about being scum. That is all I meant and for that I am willing to policy lynch. It could easily be down as scum. If you outright say I'm scum you know people will lynch you so you joke about it or imply it in more vague ways.

This is really bad. But, I can't give him scumpoints for the vote, because Wh4T you started a precedent by voting-to-pressure; that is, your vote on me. Honestly I view this back-and-forth as town versus town, and it's derailing from actual focus on the thread. Now, expanding our horizons is great (actually, it's not, but people here seem to want to be progressive or something), but let's not let us get distracted from the real scum in the game.

[Kiana Kaslana]

I give you that I had a certain theory but Kianas 436 destroyed that one.

What theory is it?

Can you please type properly? I find it difficult to understand your posts.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Are you even paying attention to what one of your scumreads is doing.

Why would I do that? If they are my scumreads, they'll be doing Scummy Things, which is none of my concern. My concern is to find scum, not to be worried about Scummy Things that the scum do, like worry about who will get nightkilled tonight, stuff like that are beyond my control.

[Kiana Kaslana]

I thought, wh4t was your biggest townread?

No, Cedric is my biggest townread. Can you please read my Points post? I really cannot see how anyone possibly misunderstands that.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Maki: Real claim? Why are you a miller?

Okay, I did a little bit more investigation on StefanB, and this is the most incriminating post I could find. However, he is correct that I should have re-evaluated, I appear to have taken too severely Stefan's rolefishing, when in fact he only did it a little. But, it's still more severe than what Beefster did that Raskol is calling out for, so it doesn't change my reasoning against Beefster. However, I will admit I made a mistake here, and will be rescinding some scumpoints from Stefan.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Okay didn't have time until now, so my points re Kiana part 2:

I don't like her pointing system at all. (Okay no suprise here)
Here are my main objections from a theoretical standpoint.

1. The main-foundation is RVS based.
2. It confirms reads rather than questions them and when they are from the RVS...
3. One think wrong and everythink goes boom. (Just play the game, what If scumread X is town, what would that mean for the other reads.
4. Its an exelent tool to make people do what Kiana wants (Okay I wanted to write bully first but that is to strong), aka vote for the people she finds scummy, to get townpoints.
5. It is completly reaction not proactive.

Okay, fair points raised against my system, but how do these make me scum? Are any of your criticisms actually something that scum would do?

Can you propose a better system and show me that it works better?

[Kiana Kaslana]

And one interesting think I noticed: There was that think yesterday with wh4ts maxed out townpoints, here is her pointlist:

I think you are having some confusion with my posts here. Let me explain you in simple terms. I take it that English isn't your first language, but it isn't for me either; I'll help you understand again.

According to both of my points list, Cedric is the most townie. It's very easy to see, so I don't understand how you are making a mistake on that part.

When I said Wh4t hit the cap for maximum townpoints, it meant for voting a scumread of mine. Now, the maximum number of townpoints for doing that is 2. Obviously, I can't give everyone townpoints for voting my scumreads, that way they would get infinity townpoints by spamming votes on scumreads! In order to get more than 2 townpoints on my ranking system, he has to do something that is even more townie than voting my scumread, which is really easy and honestly even scum can do it if they are trying to bus!

Do you understand now? Please let me know.

I am feeling good about your recent responses, which is also good news because of my 3 scumreads you are the one with the least scumpoints, so you have the potential to rise up in the ranks. It may seem like a coincidence here but it probably means even more for my reads to be right.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Voting for your scumreads are really the best way to earn town points?

But scum can vote scum. What would stop a scum from just sheeping you to earn townpoints?

I have to definitely reevaluate my read of you after this.

No, obviously not. Can you please improve your reading comprehension.

I awarded townpoints to players who voted for my scumreads before I even entered the game. That confirms they couldn't "copied my answers", so they are getting the correct answers organically and will therefore earn townpoints.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Or maybe I'm the one who is writing stuff confusingly. Maybe it's me.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Okay, great. You almost got me self conscious there. It'll make me feel stupid if I were being rude to people about their reading when it's actually my fault.

Any other questions?

[Kiana Kaslana]

@Kiana make a post/case summarizing your scumreads. You'll say "why would I listen to you" but town!you should have motivation if you want others to actually follow with you if you really believe everything you say.

I've already summarized my scumreads. They're pretty clear who anyone who reads my posts. Stop making me do busywork, you're close enough to the noose as is without having yourself trying to change my read on you.

[Kiana Kaslana]

I am liking StefanB's most recent posts. He might not be scum after all. He is doing much better than the other two scumreads so there is a very good comparison too.

Stefan I want to know how you are reading other players instead of always focusing on me.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Having anyone have anything more substantiative than what you try to downplay as "technicalities" at Day 1 Page 20 is disingenuous.

[Kiana Kaslana]

I don't like how two townreads of mine are currently voting for me. As far as it stands this is effectively bad play. This is why hunting scum early is dangerous; the voices of the scum teammates can't effectively be distinguished from what may be seen as other town, and when they all come down on me, weaker town only sheep scum. It's pretty ridiculous how my wagon had grown from a measly Raskol-scum push to having three town lacking in the critical thinking skills department voting me for what essentially is a better playstyle than you folks who can't even catch scum correctly.

I believe this points system makes the reasons why I scumread or townread a person very clear, and it also flags posts and gives all explanations for my reads. For some reason, this is somehow more scummy than people just saying "X is town" or "Y is scum" without reasoning? Please, take those pants off your head and realize that this system is superior to what you folks are currently doing.

[Kiana Kaslana]

I recall quite a few criticisms on Kiana's "point system" scumhunting. It's not AI. I've done it both as town and as scum. Her methods might be strange, but they're not scummy. Slight town lean here for making good points on 191 and 192

The system isn't horrible but Kiana didn't seem to ask much questions, and it's kinda against meta for her to do that method

What do you know about my meta? The only completed game we have involved you self-hammering my slot and throwing the game for town.

I was ISOing and found this: what the fuck is

that

supposed to mean? Just because I got pocketed once I'm not allowed to meta read people?
As for why ask questions since I saw you ask that as well, how about the fact that you might not understand what the situation is and asking questions helps you do that? That's how I found out I was wrong with the Kokichi situation.

What I am saying is, you don't know a single thing about my meta so please stop stating it like you're an expert.

Self hammering as town is bad for town. And to protect a scum? That makes it doubly worse. Shame on you.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Can we vote brass yet and why aren't people voting him? As I've pointed out asking useless questions not really doing much at all coasting along while all the loud voices take up the thread I would love some pressure on that guy.

Kiana your system is quite bad it's just better for you to say "I dislike post ___ for (reason here)" It's easier to show a thought process and what you're thinking then just doing a point system for towny and scummy posts it feels robotic imo.
If that's what you want go ahead but I think the other way would be better ye?

</3

Okay Maki love if you say so...

[Kiana Kaslana]

Like a point system is fine. Arguing anyone who disagrees is scum? Absolute garbage. You're likely to end up with more scumread than townreads and guess who looks like an idiot then?

I don't have more scumreads than townreads, so stop making yourself look more the idiot, you self-hammering nincompoop.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Voting for your scumreads are really the best way to earn town points?

But scum can vote scum. What would stop a scum from just sheeping you to earn townpoints?

I have to definitely reevaluate my read of you after this.

No, obviously not. Can you please improve your reading comprehension.

I awarded townpoints to players who voted for my scumreads before I even entered the game. That confirms they couldn't "copied my answers", so they are getting the correct answers organically and will therefore earn townpoints.

And whyyyyy do you think your reading capabilities are so good might I ask? I think I know how people felt when I was new and talking about my teamguess skills now, oof

In Be Yourself Mafia, I correctly caught 2/3 of the scum; NSG and Mulch. I didn't know there was one more scum, but I caught Cheeky as well early game. What have you done? Lynch yourself? My, reading capabilities have been proven to be leagues above yours, so if you would refrain from being condescending to newbies, maybe you can improve.

[Kiana Kaslana]

I am liking StefanB's most recent posts. He might not be scum after all. He is doing much better than the other two scumreads so there is a very good comparison too.

Stefan I want to know how you are reading other players instead of always focusing on me.

Read my posts. Did I focus on you today, yes. Always is false. I have given posts directed at other players. I don't do a were do you stand completly ever day.

Have I given a read on everyone, no there are players I haven't given a read one, some of them I haven't got a read one.
If someone has a good idea how to engage Kaito for example I am all ears.

Pre-edit: Bu-Jaber the system makes it clear where she stands, okay. This is a plus.
I have stated the minus. The question is does it produce good content?

You are correct. My bad.

I will be adding townpoints for you as a compensation.



Gamma Emerald will be replacing StefanB on my scumreads list. I hate how he comes to the absolute chainsaw defense of Raskol and Archwing. That means to say, he hard attacks and discredits me in an attempt to defend his partners.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Archwing still has the most scumpoints so my vote goes there.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Gamma has added fuel to both fires now (please check his ISO). First he egged on the Arch wagon and now he's egging on the Kiana wagon. I find his method disingenuous in that he doesn't seem to care about responses to his pushes; he seems to care more about presenting accusations instead AKA scum shading. Gamma seems pretty certain about scum Kiana but has not voted. Actions speak louder than words after all. It's as if he's a vulture circling and waiting for the best prey.

So, if I change my mind that's a scummy thing now? Well that's cool to know, guess I'll just play like Kiana /s. And I'm not even doing what you're saying. I don't think I've really explicitly said I've scumread Kiana, and the mindset I'm in rn is "help the person with tough love". So rather than completely shut Kiana off I'm opting to try to communicate with them a bit about why their method doesn't work.

That's fine but your arguments about my method are not convincing at all.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Gamma Emerald, Raskolnikov, Kokichi Oma
Cedrick, Wh4t, Archwing
StefanB, brassherald, Beefster
Kaito Momota, Maki Harukawa, Kiana Kaslana

I'm mystified and slightly offended that Kaito is such a strong town read for you. Can you please elaborate on that read?

I agree with this sentiment. Bujaber your reads list is organized strangely. Is the last row for townreads or nullreads? I'm nullreading Kaito and Maki right now so that's what I assume it means?

Please clarify.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Bujaber raises good points against Cedrick but according to the points its more likely that Cedrick is playing poorly rather than scum. However the fact that he feels that the post is the "biggest shock" is exactly what I felt. Pretty good read here and so I'm giving Bujaber some townpoints for 528.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Stefan's most recent posts have been really really good and I cannot help but give him massive townpoints for not only correcting my misguided earlier read but also turning it around. His frustration from my misreading of him also comes across as genuine. He is no longer a scumread but now a townread.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Gamma Emerald has put me at L-1. Anybody who is town on my wagon currently should unvote IMMEDIATELY!

[Kiana Kaslana]

Gamma has added fuel to both fires now (please check his ISO). First he egged on the Arch wagon and now he's egging on the Kiana wagon. I find his method disingenuous in that he doesn't seem to care about responses to his pushes; he seems to care more about presenting accusations instead AKA scum shading. Gamma seems pretty certain about scum Kiana but has not voted. Actions speak louder than words after all. It's as if he's a vulture circling and waiting for the best prey.

So, if I change my mind that's a scummy thing now? Well that's cool to know, guess I'll just play like Kiana /s. And I'm not even doing what you're saying. I don't think I've really explicitly said I've scumread Kiana, and the mindset I'm in rn is "help the person with tough love". So rather than completely shut Kiana off I'm opting to try to communicate with them a bit about why their method doesn't work.

That's fine but your arguments about my method are not convincing at all.

Mhm. How about the fact it can totally be gamed?

That's not convincing. You must prove to me that it can be gamed in a fashion that is significantly worse than whatever current method you're using.

[Kiana Kaslana]

This argument by Bujaber is really good and you really should be engaging with this.

As for Kiana's system. People are disagreeing with her reasoning then calling her system bad. That's wrong. If you disagree with why she awarded x player townpoints or scumpoints argue against that. Saying the system is bad is stupid. Also her argumenys are generally pretty good imo. She's noticing stuff I would miss. Same with wh4t. His earlier pushes seemed suspicious but I'm starting to question my read.

Instead of whining about how your inferiority complex gets triggered by me when I only joined this site much later than you.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Well it's kinda hard to describe my method, but what I do is basically analyze content and tell whether it should be coming from town or scum in the circumstances. Take my reaction to BuJaber's defense of you. I saw it, thought about the context and what he was trying to say, and determined that it was a bit too trusting to be pure. As such I reached the conclusion of it being scum if you're town via him knowing it's town motivated and defending it as such. It might not be perfect, but it's not one that you can game easily, there's always room to change my mind. Honestly I don't even know what your doing here either, I'm more voting you for the discrediting via the self-hammer mention than your playstyle, though the playstyle is certainly a factor. It's like 65% the discredit, 35% the playstyle.

Does my method not analyze content and tell whether it is coming from town or scum under the circumstances? What makes your method different? What makes your method better? My method makes my reads more transparent by assigning objective points numericals to actions that I find alignment indicative. This allows me to make a readslist fast and early, and all my reasonings are substantiated. What can you present in your favour for your own method?

If there is always room the change your mind, can't that game you more easily. Again, I cite Be Yourself Mafia as evidence that you can be gamed and me, much less so. Do you have counterevidence to prove otherwise or are your accusations baseless. If you think I can be gamed easily, prove it with evidence, not hypotheticals.

Am I not allowed to discredit you after you started it by discrediting me? Is that necessarily a scummy thing to do. What about playstyle, is that necessarily coming from scum? If they are not, then why are you knowingly voting town?

[Kiana Kaslana]

EXCUSE ME WHAT?!??!?!!?!?!? INFERIORITY COMPLEX? WHAT MAKES YOU THINK I HAVE THAT? You just, bfeu;wgjfnbjqbfsdav
Screw. Off.
As for BuJaber's argument it's not that in-depth but sure, let's take a look at it. I think her system is bad

because

of the way town and scumpoints are awarded. If she's awarding them for having similar thoughts, then there's the possibility you get pocketed by scum who are pushing the same agenda as you (which btw I feel like Kiana regardless of alignment is pushing an agenda). There's also the fact town are less likely to agree with you imo because they don't have that same desire to get in someone's good graces scum does. So as I see it it helps scum and hurts town. Kiana mentioned she only awards points for thinking similarly if they had the thought before she could state it, which is okay, but I'd like her to cite the examples for me. As for the arguments being good can you describe

how

, BuJaber?

No, you are the one who should screw off. I am trying out a new system and you are taking a dump on it with unconvincing arguments. I am not sure if you are anti-newbie or anti-women or are upset that one with both of those traits can be better than you but all I know is you are getting in my way and playing anti-town.

With your own method you get pocketed by scum who are both pushing the same agenda as you and not pushing the same agenda as you. At least I can say my method is better on this front. I mentioned I only awards points for thinking similarly if they had the thought before I could state it, which is okay, but you should go find that evidence for yourself instead of making me doing busywork for you. I am not your little bitch. It is very obvious from my previous posts which you are clearly not reading. I don't know if you are not reading because you are stubborn, lazy, bad at reading, or just plain scum. Unfortunately three of those options are town-possible and only one is scum. Unfortunately again, only way I can maintain my sane respect for you is if you are the latter.

[Kiana Kaslana]

VOTE: Kokichi Oma
Actually this is scum. He's trying to play both sides by telling Kiana to claim and then suggesting an Archwing quicklynch.

As long as you are not talking about me which is barking up the wrong tree, you are making good posts.

@Kokichi my comment is that I will not allow scum (Archwing and co) wagoning me to bully me into claiming and giving them free information.

[Kiana Kaslana]

VOTE: Kokichi Oma
Actually this is scum. He's trying to play both sides by telling Kiana to claim and then suggesting an Archwing quicklynch.

This looks reactive / going after low hanging fruit.

Also, the post before it is strange. Gamma points to Kiana as having an agenda but admits that having an agenda is not necessarily scummy. And he also points out that she gives town points for agreeing and scum points for disagreeing. I can see his point I guess, but that sort of reaction is pretty normal. It's this lovely thing called confirmation bias and it's something I fall prey to all the time. At worst, she's simply wrong about her suspicions.

How is Kokichi low hanging fruit? I think the low hanging fruit is me here. Kokichi doesn't have any votes and is in fact pretty town-ish so he is definitely not fruit.

But I agree with your points against Gamma, right now he is just being stubborn or prideful and won't give up his argument no matter how wrong he obviously is.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Idk there's confirmation bias and then there's conscious perpetuation of the previous reads. It feels like she's consciously enforcing the idea that her reads are law. And I feel like an agenda can be scummy but in this case it isn't scummy unless the reads feel scum-motivated. As for the quoted post, how is KO low-hanging fruit? I'll grant you reactive though.

My reads are as law to me as my vote. Everything to me is absolute. If you don't agree with my reads you are either bad town or scum. At worst you only get my vote, but I only have one vote to give to three scum and X number of bad town. I don't have godlike powers here.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Archwing is town, stahp

This feels like deliberate contrarian scum who knows that Archwing is going to flip town and wants to pull mislynches on the wagon if that is the case.

Makes me hesitant about the Archwing wagon now but this assumes Gamma being scum.

Since Archwing still has more scumpoints than Gamma it is more likely that Archwing is scum and Gamma is just bad.

My vote remains on Archwing but in the event that Gamma's scumpoints overtake him, I will be shifting my vote to Gamma.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Also Gamma, you haven't even addressed to the fact that I have shown to scumread both of them, before the "wagons" on them were relevant. Seeing as that's the basis of you vote on me, what other reason do you scumread me?

Well the read has changed a bit after realizing you haven't voted Kiana, only Arch. I think either you're promoting both of them as mislynches or soft-bussing Kiana while pushing Archwing, either way I think you're scum. As for what you're trying to counterpoint I think you pushing them before the wagons don't matter that much as you still pushed Kiana to claim right before you suggested a quicklynch on Arch.

I've misread the above post, please disregard. Post makes sense in context here.

Thank you Gamma for giving reasoning which is much needed from you the whole time.

[Kiana Kaslana]

I do a little skim of my predecessors before joining - I usually don't join if the person says a lot but from what I read, I really thought that my predecessor was a bit of a snarky fellow so I apologize for that one. Not sure if my re-read will change that.

Hi! Welcome to the game.

I want you to explain further on why you have me as a scumread, and also why you are voting for me. I have read your post, and everything you have mentioned about me is all of: "Kiana is blunt." "Kiana is extra blunt." and the like. Can you please explain to me how this is not a personality trait and something instead that is scummy or alignment indicative?

I'd like your full analysis of how you derived a scumread.

[Kiana Kaslana]

I think Kiana has a higher probability of being scum. Kiana is L-3 btw - not L-1 or anything close like before.

I agree with you that Kiana and Arch is an asspull of a team. If you want to go after Arch first, that's fine. Arch gives more solidified reads while Kiana gives Buscum. My gamble on the Kiana lynch is that, like I said, it could be a genuinely easy mislynch for scum to pull (which if you look at the votecounts demonstrates that Kiana was close to being lynched). However, there's something to note there -

What is the reason you want Kiana lynched first? Or, why does Kiana have a higher probability of being scum. You didn't answer the question that Wh4t asked at all.

If Kiana gets lynched and then flips town, what does that mean for Bujaber? What exactly is the gamble here then. It's something for nothing.

[Kiana Kaslana]

I had a dream that I was a muffler last night. I woke up exhausted!"

I don't understand this joke either :*

[Kiana Kaslana]

My vote on Kiana wasn’t opportunistic either. People were making some very good posts about her and I found myself agreeing with them. You then tried to use my v/la against me which is a very shitty thing to do again.

What good posts are they making? I would love to hear your explanation.

[Kiana Kaslana]

I’m suspicious of Kiana over arch. I don’t really like how she was trying to pocket me early on and I felt the posts made before I voted here were enough that she should get another vote on her.

You don't like me townreading you? Why?

What exactly would be the purpose of pocketing you. Are you so good a player to believe yourself to be a pocketing target?

[Kiana Kaslana]

Dear god. I'll happily scum read Kiana if Arch flips town, I've made that more than clear.

If you can't handle being scum read, you probably shouldn't be playing mafia.

Why does Arch flipping town change anything about my alignment? Our role PMs are randomized and our alignments are independent. I am still town no matter what Arch flips.

[Kiana Kaslana]

god I wish I was a triple voter so I could have votes on beef brass and Kokichi forever

"Who's gonna win the scummy post race!"

In the lead is Brass with him asking questions with no meaning trying to look busy

OPE but here comes Kokichi with his lying bs and overall scummy plays

BUT DON'T COUNT OUT DARK HORSE BEEFSTAR with awful votes and no town posts ever!

Beef has the least townpoints of your three scumreads but he doesn't have scumpoints so I won't advise going there yet.

[Kiana Kaslana]

No, you are the one who should screw off. I am trying out a new system and you are taking a dump on it with unconvincing arguments. I am not sure if you are anti-newbie or anti-women or are upset that one with both of those traits can be better than you but all I know is you are getting in my way and playing anti-town.

With your own method you get pocketed by scum who are both pushing the same agenda as you and not pushing the same agenda as you. At least I can say my method is better on this front. I mentioned I only awards points for thinking similarly if they had the thought before I could state it, which is okay, but you should go find that evidence for yourself instead of making me doing busywork for you. I am not your little bitch. It is very obvious from my previous posts which you are clearly not reading. I don't know if you are not reading because you are stubborn, lazy, bad at reading, or just plain scum. Unfortunately three of those options are town-possible and only one is scum. Unfortunately again, only way I can maintain my sane respect for you is if you are the latter.

For Kiana:
*headdesk* to quote somethink from another side.
First off there are a few people who had problems with your system, BuJaber likes it. What makes GEs post that much worse?
Your reaction comes from anger at the moment and this makes you look worse. (Personal experience anger is not a tell for alligment exspecially if it goes about general isues, some scumplayers like to go angry because it can give them an out)

Anti-newbie: This may hurt, but some newbies are pretty easy to read, others are not... If you play with someone more often, you can see were there quirks are and they are easier to read.
Beeing to sure of your reads, is the only think that I see mentioned with newbies. It is a danger everythink should be aware off.

Anti-women: You push that in another game before and I see that the back and forth between GE and you got personal.
Kind of the start was probably that:
Kiana

What do you know about my meta? The only completed game we have involved you self-hammering my slot and throwing the game for town.

I will not go into who came out worse in what followed. The problem is if the discusion reach the point were the question is who is the worse player, I never seen it not getting ugly.

About your system, this is somethink new. It was not completly easy to understand.
Lets take your biggest townread from your pointsystem for example: I think you awarded 3 townpoints for his jokes, and 2 townpoints for the vote on Archwing, but this is more a guiss from me than beeing sure.

About not reading this is funny because we had the same discusion twohundred post ago, with you in the other postition.

-----------------------

For everyone:

Kiana defense is at the moment: Attack the attacker. Be very agresive. She is also using appeals to emotion.
This can be playstile. (Not a pleasant or easy one to read mind you)
It is also the easy route to defend if you don't have logic arguments.
It also gets the discusion away from the question is she scum/town to who is the worse player or even worse person.
Don't let it get there.

Hi, Stefan, thanks for your comments. They are very helpful. You are making more sense than Gamma Emerald.

Let me just simplify what is going on with Gamma Emerald. Gamma Emerald says my system is bad because I can be pocketed and I can be wrong about my reads. The problem here is that anybody can also be pocketed and be wrong about their reads, so it doesn't make my system bad. Then, he tells me not to be confident about my reads because I am a newbie, this makes my system bad. Well, people without system also can be confident about their reads, so it is not a very good argument. What do you think about this?

I know you also have problems with my system, but at least your criticisms are more helpful and make more sense. Gamma Emerald's criticisms make completely no sense at all. Maybe its because you're more experienced with Mafia having joined in 2010 and are expert than Gamma Emerald. Or maybe it's because Gamma Emerald is scum and is angry that my system caught his teammates so he wants to ruin my system. Which is it?

[Kiana Kaslana]

Kiana nice try.

First yes I joined mafiascum some time ago, but had a long break. So my meta is old(miller for example) and I know nearly no players in this.
So no appeal to authority from me.

I find it hard to read the discusion with you and Gamma.
The big difference between the situation is: There is no history between you and me our diskusion didn't go in personal ground, so it is more neutral than the one you have with Gamma.

So the argument will also be less neutral, than it would be if that wasn't there.
Note also the Gammas was commenting on your system after a few other players.
So it is normal that it isn't as detailed.

Now if your theory is that he does that because you caught Raskolnikov and Archwing. Do you think that you had the influence that you scumreading them, would neccesary get them lynched? Do you think the timming, after several people were voting you, would make this necesary? He was when he did that a slight townread, wouldn't it be safer to not do it and stay hidden?
It is an interesting theory but it would be very risky scumplay.

I'm not sure what you meant about appeal to authority. I was just being nice. Again the way you speak already shows that you have more expertise than Gamma even though English is not as fluent, but we can understand you so it is fine.

I certainly have the influence, and, even if for the sake of discussion that I do not, both Raskol and Archwing are already on high pressure. Do take note that Raskol and Archwing wagons were much larger than mine before I got several quickvotes, probably a manufactured scum-led push, which means my wagon is not natural. Because of this, the timing is irrelevant. Let's assume a hypothetical Archwing-Raskol-Gamma scumteam, though I'm waffling on Gamma at the moment and may be wrong about that this is only to prove my point in the argument: If both Arch and Raskol are taken down, Gamma can't stay hidden for long. Especially when he is only a very slight townread, sooner or later by PoE he will be found out. This will naturally result in a loss, so he cannot stay hidden for long. This means my theory is still meaningful.

I will be happy to engage with you with any further questions you may have.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Well, that's blatantly false.

No, it's actually true. Well technically it's false but I had to summarize because that is the gist of all you said.

Here is it in its entirety:

Spoiler: All Hiraki said

Wow, my scumread is voting me. Congratulations, your scumpoints have been doubled. It proves that I'm right on the mark.

This reeks of a buss.

Nothing could have possibly happened within these two posts, so not only the townpoints have been rescinded, but there is also a penalty. The vote almost feels like a scam to earn townpoints but actually wanting to vote correct scum Raskol. So, in total this gained some scumpoints.

This makes no sense if you actually read the post. This entire point is that is that Stefan has gained scumpoints because he's not thinking like Kiana. Not only is this absurd but it treats Stefan's post as if it was a plot without reading the post. I'm pretty sure when Kiana read this post, she read the unvote and the turned her brain off. Here's the post for reference:

Actually

Unvote

:

I don't know how I feel about Beefster pushing it and Archwing following.

Read the above and then read Kiana's post. It's absolutely absurd. I'm not sure if this is scum aligned anymore but it is terrible posting either way.

I don't like how two townreads of mine are currently voting for me. As far as it stands this is effectively bad play.

This is really egotistical and gave me the worst headache to read. I genuinely think there's a decent chance your lynch is a mislynch but this shit isn't helping. Head says scum here, gut says town.

Especially when you add that with this -

I believe this points system makes the reasons why I scumread or townread a person very clear, and it also flags posts and gives all explanations for my reads.

When you have a post on the same page by Arch that details his problems with it too. Why not talk about that rather than just be blunt and say I'm better than everyone else? Only person you've convinced so far is yourself.

My, reading capabilities have been proven to be leagues above yours, so if you would refrain from being condescending to newbies, maybe you can improve.

Jesus christ - did you really just write that and tell /him/ to stop being condescending? Are you fucking blunt?

Gamma Emerald has put me at L-1. Anybody who is town on my wagon currently should unvote IMMEDIATELY!

KAIN TEPES!

Town: Stefan, Koki, Gamma

Scumpool: {Kiana, Archlight, Raska} (in that order)

Everyone else is null / leans. Let me know if you need any follow-up on the nulls. Being a little lazy here.

The four words "This reeks of a buss" doesn't even come close to a remotely coherent explanation.

I could write a big post but I don't feel like I need to at this juncture. I don't need to convince you why I think you're scum.

This is absolutely fine, but then you must excuse me when I also see no need to explain to scum why I think they're scum.

Actually, I did. Rask even furthers my point by continuing my train of thought. Which means let's be clear here - this isn't a me problem.

This is certainly a you-problem. Raskol is scum reactionary pushing me after I caught him. You are a townread of mine, which therefore gives me a cause for concern. I want to resolve this issue now.

[Kiana Kaslana]

I literally quoted two instances right after where I did show that you're scum. You noted one and then ignored the other.

Yes. You said that you are "not sure that it is scum aligned anymore". So I am not sure what you are talking about. I believe other people will be confused as well.

[Kiana Kaslana]

This is absolutely fine, but then you must excuse me when I also see no need to explain to scum why I think they're scum.

Completely missed the point here.

I have no reason to show you why your actions are scummy. I do not need your vote to lynch you. If I need votes, then I will tell other people.

Again, absolutely fine by me. However, look from my perspective, you are my townread and you are reading me wrong; it is therefore my duty to convince you that is the case. I will not attempt to stop doing so until I have reason to believe you are scum.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Wooow at that reaction from cedrick. That is a sudden change in tone and style. It reeks of scum implosion. That 1v1 with wh4t is very enlightening. I heavily suspect this is TvS and it is very likely cedrick is the scum here. For someone who was in good shape and being widely townread to flip out like that doesn't sound like a townie POV.

VOTE: Cedrick

Wh4t is now a townlean.

Beef is so far off here. Koki seems to be low key encouraging wagons without trying. Arch is probably scum here too but I'd prefer a cedrick lynch.

Kaito needs to participate more. Hiraki comes off as trying too hard I'm having difficulty sorting him at the moment. Rest are more or less where I had them before.

Kiana continuing to show why her style is so effective. It puts pressure on people without needing to form wagons on them. It sparks and encourages discussion and arguing. It exposes scum who can't handle pressure. It makes it easier to sort people because people are forced to tall about actual game relevant things and defend/attack people.

I admit it would suck if everyone played that way and shit will get personal every game but you know why there are so many like her on MS? Because it fucking works.
If she does this as scum kudos to her she'll beat me every time but I am not voting for her anytime soon.

This is why it's difficult for me to sort hiraki. Gut says town but the way he's going after Kiana is unnatural.

I don't agree with your Cedrick lynch. He is obviously town to me. However your reasoning is fair enough and it will be noted.

Thank you for your kind words regarding my system. It appears that you are the only one of the few with critical thinking skills here.

"I admit it would suck if everyone played that way and shit will get personal every game but you know why there are so

many

like her on MS? " I think you mean that there are so little like me. Most people do stuff that don't work which is why town loses.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Stance on arch and kiana wagons, if you will.

The arch wagon is good, but it's troubling that it snowballed so quickly. There is probably scum on this wagon.

Kiana wagon was an overreaction. Probably scum on this wagon- moreso than Arch.

Are you townreading Arch? Why?

[Kiana Kaslana]

And, even though it "snowballed quickly" (PS: It didn't), it is kind of difficult to lynch him. Don't you think this resistance against his lynch could be indicative that we are correctly lynching scum?

[Kiana Kaslana]

Fine point, Cedrick, but something I want to ask:

But wait. How on earth are you lecturing me on opportunistic voting? You placed arch at l-2 earlier in the game while going back and forth on if you wanted to actually scum or town read him. You gave absolutely no reason for it and you even apologized to him for it. I at least gave a reason for my vote and I certainly didn’t apologize.

If wh4t is Archwing's buddy, then why would he opportunistically vote for Archwing?


PSA: This message was brought to you by Kiana townreading Wh4t.

[Kiana Kaslana]

I’m suspicious of Kiana over arch. I don’t really like how she was trying to pocket me early on and I felt the posts made before I voted here were enough that she should get another vote on her.

You don't like me townreading you? Why?

What exactly would be the purpose of pocketing you. Are you so good a player to believe yourself to be a pocketing target?

GROCERY STORE CHECKER: "Paper or plastic?" DAD: "Either, I’m bisacktual.”

I didn’t feel your town read on me was genuine. I didn’t think I had done anything to be townread. I expected people to scum read me not the other way around.

The fact that you make posts like these are the reasons why you get townread.

I cannot deny your feelings but I will have to disagree that it's scum-motivated. There is nothing scummy about having good reads in my opinion.

[Kiana Kaslana]

A three-legged dog walks into a bar and says to the bartender, "I’m looking for the man who shot my paw."

I don't get this joke either.

This level of English is beyond me.

I'm so glad that brass explained Juggle Fever though.

[Kiana Kaslana]

If wh4t is Archwing's buddy, then why would he opportunistically vote for Archwing?

How do you tell the difference between a frog and a horny toad? A frog says, "Ribbit, ribbit" and a horny toad says, "Rub it, rub it.”

Good point. I’m not sure if they are scum together. But regardless his vote could be perceived as opportunistic. If he’s scum and arch isn’t then it definitely is and he’s a hypocrite. If he’s bussing but trying to appear town, it still appears opportunistic and he still looks like a hypocrite.

Is hypocrisy necessarily a scum trait? I usually see it coming from town.

You are presenting that Wh4t is scum regardless of what Archwing flips?

[Kiana Kaslana]

Real talk: 15% of why I'm engaging with Cedrick is because I want to hear more jokes
45% because he's my townread and 40% because I want to know where he's at.

[Kiana Kaslana]

I don't get this joke either.

Did you hear the news? FedEx and UPS are merging. They’re going to go by the name Fed-Up from now on.

In western movies “paw” is daddy. It’s cliche in westerns for the son to try and avenge their fathers death. Confrontations usually taking place in bars or saloons

Paw is also a dog’s foot.


The muffler joke. Muffler is part of the exhaust system of a car.

Thanks, man.

English is also my second language so I have some trouble with some jokes, as you can see. Always want to learn more!

[Kiana Kaslana]

I don't need to sort out - I've already done that. I think I've made that pretty clear. Otherwise I would've changed my vote by now.

Hiraki are you reading everyone who voted you as scum? Because you are still not explaining your scumread on me, or to phrase it more appropriately, why you have not "changed your vote by now". You have been asked by others; but you give the response that you gave to me, that is, no response.

Your reasoning for not responding to me was because you don't have to convince hypothetical-me-scum that I'm scum. Fine.

But, why aren't you responding to others? Do you have a reason or do they become excuses now.

[Kiana Kaslana]

My pet theory is that I am not getting lynched even though I am a scum-led wagon, for this sole reason: scum are already on my wagon, and thus have no more members to add further to my wagon to fulfill a lynch.

Now, this makes the current Hiraki wagon rather concerning because it implies that it is a town-led wagon.

Which leads me to wonder if I was giving my brass townread a bit too freely and easily, because truth be told I have not been impressed by Hiraki's posts at all.

[Kiana Kaslana]

I checked Be Yourself mafia again and I noticed that there are hints of Kiana's style here in there. Kiana do you have any other games where you did this? If not why are you doing this method now?

This game is slow enough that I could respond to most posts and assign points individually. I cannot do this for larger or faster games. It is not feasible.

Plus, the fact that I'm already getting scumread for nonsensical reasons, for this new system alone, by people who don't know any better, I suppose limits funding for future research and development into this method.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Gamma Emerald is a difficult slot for me because his posts gain and lose town/scumpoints very drastically so he is up and down on my scale for me. I am waffling on him, so to speak.

[Kiana Kaslana]

If my other pet theory that I have caught scum correctly and the remaining scum is purely chainsaw defending (which means to say, they are hard attacking me to discredit my pushes) is correct, perhaps I was wrong about it being Gamma Emerald. Hiraki is performing the same thing, perhaps more egregiously, but I have only been giving him a free pass thanks to brassherald's townpoints.

Those townpoints are quickly being spent.

[Kiana Kaslana]

StefanB are you still scumreading me? If not you should move your vote away. I'm at L-2 again I think.

[Kiana Kaslana]

848: I'm not scumreading you for the system. I think your posts are scummy as other people have mentioned.

Where have I accused you of scumreading me for the system? I have only accused you (and others) of scumreading me for nonsensical reasons, which is still true, by the way.

This is also strange when placed together with this:

You said I was going to borrow someone else's opinion

You are 100% borrowing other's opinion when you only "agree" with what "other people" have mentioned that I am "scummy". Unfortunately I am reading those "other people" as scum, so are you content with copying the opinions of scum or are you part of them trying to get a mislynch.

Brassherald had townpoints but you are racking up so much scumpoints debt here.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Actually not that thing but the "I don't need to rework my reads" thing I'd felt you were doing
stil feel like he's being a hypocrite

Can you please show everyone where you see this in Hiraki's posts so that we all can verify. Successful verification of scummy behavior from Hiraki means that his townpoints will be taken away and sent to your credit.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Someone ask Hiraki to explain his reads properly including his scumread on me which he admittedly copied the answers from "other people" so that he has no more excuse for it.

[Kiana Kaslana]

You are 100% borrowing other's opinion when you only "agree" with what "other people" have mentioned that I am "scummy". Unfortunately I am reading those "other people" as scum, so are you content with copying the opinions of scum or are you part of them trying to get a mislynch.

Correct punctuation: the difference between a sentence that's well-written and a sentence that's, well, written.


do you find borrowing other's opinions scummy?

It depends on whose opinions are being borrowed, how it is being borrowed and for what purpose it's being borrowed. It can be townie or scummy so there is no fixed answer.

But that is not my point. My point is that Hiraki is playing pedantic by refuting Bujaber on one end, saying that he hasn't been borrowing opinions, but in actuality he admits doing so in the same post. Implicitly Hiraki agrees that borrowing opinions is scummy since he didn't attack the argument outright, instead he asks for proof. But the proof is in the same post.

[Kiana Kaslana]

The funny thing here is that Hiraki implicitly agrees that borrowing opinions is scummy. He wants Bu to substantiate his argument by asking Bu to prove where he did it.

Since Hiraki thinks borrowing opinions is scummy, and Hiraki is borrowing opinions... what does that make him then?

[Kiana Kaslana]

Ok but where did I borrow an opinion on my Bucket scumread. I've asked this question numerous times and all I've gotten was silence and then you just accuse me again.

Furthermore, where did I say that borrowing opinions is scummy? I referenced it in the sake of someone calling me scummy for doing that but I never commented on the action itself.

If you're going to address me from here on out, please quote me so you don't misquote me without quoting me.

I've actually quoted you. Is that my fault?

[Kiana Kaslana]

Actually fuck, that won't even work because you quoted 858 and completely got the wrong message from it. Nowhere in there did I say anything to the effect of "borrowing points is scummy" - I only asked where I did that.

Okay, great. So you agree that you are borrowing points. But you said that you did not do that in post 858. You know what, let me quote it, so you don't get to deny it again.

You said I was going to borrow someone else's opinion to buy credit. I didn't do that.

So, you are lying. Is lying scummy? Let's find out.

VOTE: Hiraki

You are arguing over minutiae right now only to nitpick and discredit the legitimate scumreads on you. But when your defense is proven false you look so much the worse.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Is English your first language? Not trying to be mean here. You just are assuming so much that's not there.

It is not.

[Kiana Kaslana]

So you agree that you are borrowing points.

Where did I agree to that in this quote?

Are you kidding me at this point.

You are being overly semantic and I will let the others do the judging if I am misreading and at fault here or if they agree with me that you are trying to weasel out of these accusations.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Actually not that thing but the "I don't need to rework my reads" thing I'd felt you were doing
stil feel like he's being a hypocrite

Can you please show everyone where you see this in Hiraki's posts so that we all can verify. Successful verification of scummy behavior from Hiraki means that his townpoints will be taken away and sent to your credit.

When he said "I don't need to sort out, I already did that". I was wrong about him attacking you for that though. He did attack you for the first thing I'd noted though

I cannot parse this post. Can you rephrase.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Kiana is there a certain thing driving this push or is it a body-of-work thing where his push is borrowed from others

It is a body-of-work thing. I am not so much concerned that his push is borrowed from others, it's not scummy by itself, but I'm bothered by the fact that he is lying then being pedantic to defend him self. Apart from that the unexplained scumread on me, almost toeing the line into opportunistic voting, then refusal to respond to others meaningfully.

All of these net him scumpoints and so now brassherald's townpoints are in the negative.

[Kiana Kaslana]

I don't need to sort out - I've already done that. I think I've made that pretty clear. Otherwise I would've changed my vote by now.

Of course you still need to sort out: your reads shouldn't be unchanging.
Also you may have just sealed your fate with this objection

This is what I feel is scummy from Hiraki and what I thought he'd criticized you for

If my other pet theory that I have caught scum correctly and the remaining scum is purely chainsaw defending (which means to say, they are hard attacking me to discredit my pushes) is correct, perhaps I was wrong about it being Gamma Emerald. Hiraki is performing the same thing, perhaps more egregiously, but I have only been giving him a free pass thanks to brassherald's townpoints.

Those townpoints are quickly being spent.

What's striking me about Hiraki is I think he also criticized your system but he's also doing the "anyone who disagrees is scum" thing.

But he did criticize you for the thing I thought he did here in a sense

Hiraki didn't criticize me for anything, as a matter of fact. His scumread materialized out of thin air.

His two "scumpoints" given to me were:

This reeks of a buss.

and

This makes no sense if you actually read the post. This entire point is that is that Stefan has gained scumpoints because he's not thinking like Kiana. Not only is this absurd but it treats Stefan's post as if it was a plot without reading the post. I'm pretty sure when Kiana read this post, she read the unvote and the turned her brain off. Here's the post for reference: [snip] It's absolutely absurd. I'm not sure if this is scum aligned anymore but it is terrible posting either way.

Then he voted me. It is very strange indeed.

[Kiana Kaslana]

In post 521, Kiana Kaslana wrote:

I don't like how two townreads of mine are currently voting for me. As far as it stands this is effectively bad play.

This is really egotistical and gave me the worst headache to read. I genuinely think there's a decent chance your lynch is a mislynch but this shit isn't helping. Head says scum here, gut says town.

This is what I mean by Hiraki criticizing you

Wow, I didn't notice this before.

Hiraki says there is a decent chance I'm a mislynch but he is still vote parking on me. Hmm. Gives him an out after I flip town.

He also says "Head says scum, gut says town". But he has 0 logical reasonings for scumreading me, otherwise it would be just easy to articulate a logical read. It should technically be the other way round to make it seem natural: "Head says town, gut says scum" would be natural, but what he said was not. So, was he lying and coming up with a fallback after I flipped town?

Plus, he said that he found me scummy because he "agreed with other people". So, the other people are to blame if I flip town, and he is blameless? Hmm...

[Kiana Kaslana]

Yes, use a post that I made during catch-up and ignore the rest of my postings. That'll work! Wasn't like nothing happened in between!

But we are wondering what led you to vote on me in the first place. Because it means that your vote preceeds the rest of your postings. Apparently your "scumread" on me from your first catch up was strong enough to have you hop on the largest wagon, possibly opportunistically, before anything "in-between" even existed. What if I had been lynched? What if I flipped town and it's night now and discussion like what we're having right now gets cut off early. Surely you had those consequences in mind at the time of that post. Why vote?

[Kiana Kaslana]

The whole point is that you don't have a good case why I'm scum and you needed people to come up with reasons you could sheep.

This is a very good summary of the case on Hiraki overall I think. I couldn't have said it better myself.

Hiraki doesn't have good cases on why anybody of his scumreads are scum and needs people to come up with reasons so he can sheep.

He is currently still voteparking on me even though he thought there was a decent chance I'm a mislynch. He is voting the biggest wagon very very conveniently. It's so easy to do it. "I find [biggest wagon person who is actually town] scummy and I agree with other peoples opinions on him that he is scummy".

Maybe that's why brassherald replace out because he don't want to play scum like this with two of his teammates caught by me.

Town on my wagon should unvote me.

[Kiana Kaslana]

I am not so happy whith a quickhammer, but I want to see Kianas reaction to it.

There are some kinds of town who like to quickhammer at L-1 because it is funny. That's why we shouldn't put me at L-1. Luckily I think all the scum on my wagon now so other scum cannot put me at L-1 and quickhammer by town. It must be two town vote me.

But if two town vote me, it means all hope is lost. It means town is very bad. So we should preventing that.

[Kiana Kaslana]

But seriously there is an easy way to beat Koichi,

if a person wants to sent Kiana to L-1, please anouce your intent before.

So we have a fundamental L-1, and don't have to be afraid of the quickhammer.

Maybe you should do unvote me too if you are town so it is harder to have a quickhammer happen.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Yes, use a post that I made during catch-up and ignore the rest of my postings. That'll work! Wasn't like nothing happened in between!

Does that matter at all?

Are you even a little OK with the amount of deceptive editing Kiana has been doing?

I get your stance and I can't really argue it away. I don't really put too much thought (ironically) into my posts but I'm OK with owning up to being wrong and if I say the wrong things, I'm gonna fix them if someone shows me why they're wrong.

Kiana doesn't do this (which isn't scummy) but has just flat out denied, denied, denied (which is). If you want to just drop it right now that you think that's worse then me saying that this person could be town (i.e. doubt based on the level of their play - if that needed to actually be said after I said Kain Tepes after one of her posts) then whatever. Just don't even try to say that this deceptive stuff is any better.

What is Kain Tepes? It makes no sense to me.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Well, I think this is the end for me. I have no choice but to claim.

I am Clownpiece, and I am a 2-shot Vig.

I didn't want to claim because keeping my power secret would be very useful but it appears that scum are voting me and town are being bad.

[Kiana Kaslana]

If there are any scum who wish to counterclaim, to try to get me lynched, you can go ahead and do so.

We can settle this at night, Texas style.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Hi. I am back. I just noticed something very disturbing.

vig hits other vig

What is this?! I almost was thinking in my head if Cedrick was scum since I gave him so many townpoints earlier in the game it was confusing me. But then I realized that the game setup is rolled by making 13 town role PMs then randomizing 3 scum. It's entirely possible that two vigs were in the original setup, and it's more likely than not that two vigs are both town instead of one being scum and one being town. There is no guarantee that the other vig is scum, because of the fact that Mathdino was supposed to make the game unbreakable.

Kokichi's nonsense about mafia doctor or whatever is a very bad argument, he just wants to lynch me. If he thinks I'm scum and he thinks already a mafia doctor on my imaginary team then why wouldn't I claim doctor instead? Why claim something risky like vig when if he said that, there would be a counterclaim and I would get lynched anyway (as is the case happening now), it doesn't make sense from scum perspective for me to claim that. So, I am town.

The problem here is that I think wh4t scumslipped by actually revealing that he knows there are 2 town vigs and is now trying to pretend that he doesn't know that. I think it is because Cedrick puts too much pressure on him knowing that Cedrick will shoot him at night. I also don't like how Wh4t likes to put me at L-2 and L-1 all the time.

VOTE: Wh4t

[Kiana Kaslana]

Lmfao

This also assumes there is only one real vig.

You guys are actually hilarious.

Oh, okay, my bad, I didn't read that part.

Still why did you take so long to come up with this conclusion then? Always putting me at L-1 and L-2. Ready to hammer. Why would you do that?

[Kiana Kaslana]

The people who are voting me now are the same as the people voting me before I claimed anyway so its lame confirmation bias.

[Kiana Kaslana]

I am willing to counterwagon anybody now for self-preservation purposes because it is the best play right now, even as town, and I am not a self-hammerer.

[Kiana Kaslana]

I am willing to counterwagon anybody now for self-preservation purposes because it is the best play right now, even as town, and I am not a self-hammerer.

Why don't you wagon the person who's counterclaiming you? Do you think he's more likely the real vig?

There is no "the real vig", there is only either one vig (me) or two vigs. I was townreading Cedrick earlier and my reads are usually better than setup spec.

Also, let's be honest here, a Cedrick wagon is suicide for me, I will definitely get lynched instead of him. There's no point to it. If I get lynched first and flip, at least you guys can figure it out tomorrow if Cedrick is scum fakeclaiming to get my lynch secured or if Cedrick is a real vig, it's very easy, we can see tonight one nightkill or two nightkills. Or some investigative can do something. It's really not hard. I don't want to think about it too much, I have to stay alive first.

[Kiana Kaslana]

About the 2 vigs: From a setup-perspektive this is a nightmare, lets asume it would be the case. Best case scenario game is over after night 1, or scum wins earlier, not somethink a mod wants.
Mafia hasn't got a vig, this game is reviewed to be normal, vigs are only normal as town. So we are talking about mafia fakeclaiming vig, not that there is a mafiavig.

Kokichi is nonsense but scum having an interference roule that can screw with townpowerroles is posible.

For the claim: Claiming doctor would put you in problems if your partner ever dies.
Claiming vig, you didn't knew that there would be a CC, because if scum you didn't knew that there was a vig.

That's wrong. Mathdino already said in the starting about the game being unbreakable. If town try to outguess the mod, town will be punished for it. That's absolutely what the mod wants.

Two vigs in the game make very interesting things. Yes, maybe game is over after night 1, if lynch scum day one and both vig shoot correctly night 1. What are the odds? It's like hitting the lottery, do you think any town on this site ever caught 3 scum on day 1? What's interesting if town shoots 1 scum and 1 town, it's evened out, very interesting indeed. Or if now, having vig cc, also it's interesting. Mod likes this kind of interesting things to happen in the games.

There is no mafiavig, there is either two vig or one vig. Unless you want to say both me and Cedrick are scum mafia claiming vig so the other one will be clear. Actually that's such a genius plan that I can use it next time, but for now I know I am town so this cannot be true.

Kokichi say we shouldn't shoot each other at night because scum have interference role. But, the game is setup unbreakable. It's possible, but then I ask you again, why won't if I am scum I will claim a safer role? What's the point.

Why would I be in trouble if my imaginary partner dies. Imaginary partner flips mafia doctor. So town have no doctor? What logic is that. Bad. If I was scum here no way I claim vig.

You are just finding reason to not unvote. It's the same people want me lynch from before I claim and after I claim, all the same people. Bad!

[Kiana Kaslana]

I'm not seriously entertaining the possibility of there being 2 town vigs here, in a confirmed 10:3 game that's potentially swingy AF; if allowed to shoot it, 2 vigs even if they shoot 2 town would become 2 confirmed town, not realistic balance and that's not even considering shots on scum.

I'm not selling it. Wh4t came up with the idea. I had doubts of Cedrick's towniness when he counterclaimed in fact even though he was my strong townread prior to this.

Roles were generated before alignment. What makes you think that a game being "swingy AF" is anything to justify a setup which the mod said it's unbreakable?

[Kiana Kaslana]

Notice how Raskol immediately unvoted me when I claimed (scared of being shot by me) then re-voted once a counterclaim occurred (if Cedrick is town here, Rask is definitely scum here). He hasn't addressed the obvious questions that opposition is asking, which is, why not let us both shoot each other at night.

VOTE: Raskol

[Kiana Kaslana]

If I'm wrong (I'm not) I'll take 100% of the responsibility for this wagon, I don't care.

But what happens after I flip town? "I'll take 100% of the responsibility for this wagon", what does this even mean.

Cedrick-scum has motivation to CC, obviously. Mislynch me for a free PR lynch day 1, and avoid having his teammate shot tonight and also potentially having the risk of his teammate being lynched Day 1. If I get lynched today it's a guaranteed benefit to hypothetical Cedrick-scum, but if town does the right thing and allows us to self-resolve it, who will get lynched, maybe a teammate, all bets are off.

If you're claiming he has no scum motivation you are either blind or scum wanting my mislynch then going to mislynch him tomorrow.

[Kiana Kaslana]

2 vigs is OP as fuck from a setup view because 90% of the time they wouldn't claim d1 and going into d2 you'd have 2 conftowns even if both shot town. Because vigs generally shoot scummy targets they also wouldn't be likely to be protected.

Your primitive view of "OP-ness" is irrelevant because the mod already said that the setup is unbreakable. There are not 2 conftowns because they are going to CC each other. And if both shot town that would be negative utility too so town paid the price. You are just trying to get me mislynched here because I caught your team early game.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Cross shot doesn't work since cedrick claimed because scum having at least 1 shot of roleblock is (if not a roleblocker/x shot rb then on a 1 shot on a JOAT) common, way moreso than the scum BP or scum doctor spec.

Well, better the roleblock on a vig then a roleblock on our investigative, right? What's your problem here. Roleblock is always an issue for any PR who claimed. If I wasn't put to L-1 I wouldn't have claimed anyway.

You haven't answered the scum motivation of why I would claim vig to get cc'd instead of doc or cop if I were scum. At least if Doc or Cop CCs me it's more valuable than a vig which people said is negative utility.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Now Cedrick is 100% vig? Sounds very suspicious, I remember earlier you said I was definitely the vig because the my playstyle fits my role... so that wasn't crumbing either? Or are you just wanting the fastest lynch as you had all game.

Mostly though the play kind of matches, stop pushing on your hardest scumreads, ignoring them when they talk to you... if you can shoot em dead anyways why not
and the switch focus to REALLY defensive play and trying to talk anyone and almost everyone out of pushing onto you...

Suddenly the story changes. I guess it's that easy for scum now.

[Kiana Kaslana]

He crumbed vig multiple times, and CC'd without any pressure on him. Are you arguing he'd put those crumbs in advance just in case he'd feel like fakeCCing a vig claim?

So? Scum were given their original town role pms that were created before they rolled scum. Your arguments are nonsense, even if I think Cedrick is town and you are the scum here.

Why would he need to fakeCC a vig claim, he can just claim vig later in the game with those crumbs, and if it weren't for me there is no counter claim. Nonsense argument, same person voting me earlier, must be coming from scum.

[Kiana Kaslana]

You haven't answered the scum motivation of why I would claim vig to get cc'd instead of doc or cop if I were scum. At least if Doc or Cop CCs me it's more valuable than a vig which people said is negative utility.

I don't know, it is a strange claim for scum but the simplest and most likely explanation here. Assuming optimal play from scum isn't always reliable.

But I play optimally as scum. So, if there is no good answer for it, that means I am town. And you are scum who ran out of good reasons just wanted to stay your vote on me while looking townie.

[Kiana Kaslana]

It's like hitting the lottery, do you think any town on this site ever caught 3 scum on day 1?

Yes. Was part of one game where that happened and then scum imploded. Very funny to watch from the deadtopic after I forced scum to kill me. Even if the vig was relucant to shoot because of a special role after night 3 4 of 5 scum were dead. And this was a large.

Even an unbreakable setup has to be balanced, 2 vigs in a mini modnightmare. I stand by this.

And unvoting a scummy player player who claims a provable role, normal. After a CC, when you believe the CC also normal.

Exept Hiraki and wh4t and Kiana no one seems to even consider 2 vigs.

Well, too bad, these days town don't catch all the scum on day 1.

You were voting me the whole day and never moved your vote, of course you will not changing your opinion now. I know what is normal, after I flip town you will blame me for being "scummy" even though you are the one who is actually bad. It's normal.

[Kiana Kaslana]

He crumbed vig multiple times, and CC'd without any pressure on him. Are you arguing he'd put those crumbs in advance just in case he'd feel like fakeCCing a vig claim?

So? Scum were given their original town role pms that were created before they rolled scum. Your arguments are nonsense, even if I think Cedrick is town and you are the scum here.

What are you getting at in this? Are you implying cedrick could've been scum who got a vig role pm as their town role pm and that's why he'd crumb and CC it?

It's possible.

But, for this reason, it also implies that two town role PMs exist with the vig role. By definition it's not impossible that 2 town got their vig roles rather than 1 town and 1 scum, by pure probability.

Mathdino literally explained how the setup was created here in the rules.

[Kiana Kaslana]

The setup was designed to be completely flavour unbreakable with a variant of the System For Flavor Unbreakability:
1. 13 town roles were written.
2. 3 of the roles were randomised to be mafia. Any necessary changes were made to fit their new alignments (for example, no Mafia Innocent Child).
3. Any necessary tweaks were made to balance the two sides.
4. Mafia were given their original town role PMs as safeclaims.
5. The 13 role PMs were randomly distributed to the 13 players.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Roles were written first. Then 3 roles randomised to be mafia. But no Mafia vig. Only Mafia safeclaim vig at maximum. But then, that means if they didn't roll mafia they'd still be vig.

[Kiana Kaslana]

No, they're still trying to mislynch me.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Is it an irony that first (and possibly only time) I roll vig on this site I get wagoned and lynched by scum before I can do anything with my role at all?

[Kiana Kaslana]

Except my contention is in designing the setup he wouldn't put 2 vig rolecards to begin with, because it'd be awful if both landed town,

But this argument is stupid in itself, I already explained why 2 vig can potentially be exciting for a mod who wants to make their game unbreakable and want to punish players for assumptions.

But I guess you just want to find stupid reasons to call me scum and make yourself look townie while doing so. To secure day 1 mislynch.

Actions still speak louder than words here.

[Kiana Kaslana]

I am going to stop wasting my time talking to bad players who have been voting my slot since page 18. Just only finding excuse to not unvote me.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Lol if I wanted you lynch you without thought I wouldn't have let you claim.

But then you would have obvscummed and would automatically be lynched the next day or maybe even Cedrick shooting you. I don't think you can risk that. At least this way with half-baked arguments maybe you can live a bit longer.

[Kiana Kaslana]

But then you would have obvscummed and would automatically be lynched the next day or maybe even Cedrick shooting you. I don't think you can risk that. At least this way with half-baked arguments maybe you can live a bit longer.

No in that case the hammerer would, and cedrick wasn't claimed either so that doesn't make sense.

Why wouldn't it make sense. Cedrick didn't need to claim to activate his ability to shoot your scummy face off.

[Kiana Kaslana]

And it would become really obvious after my flip.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Did you know cedrick was vig before he claimed?

No, I didn't.

Anyway I have other stuff to do and I don't think talking to you is going to be a good way to spend my time, you're clearly not going to unvote, so bye.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Because Kiana is likely BP or there is scum doc.

This argument is a non-argument, if I was BP or scum doc then why wouldn't I claim BP or doc? Haven't answered the question.

People who are on my wagon are the same people from before I claimed. No change. Except Hiraki, who if he votes me it's lights out for me. Because of this Hiraki is probably town.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Wh4T's posting has become worse but scummy worse. It's been much more focused on people who are attacking him (and even attacking them back) rather than just ignoring them or responding to their arguments.

I agree here. I also hate how he is ready to put me at L-2 and L-1 many times this game.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Hiraki is in the lynch outside camp. And he can hammer me if he wants. My life is on a thread now so I cannot support lynching him.

[Kiana Kaslana]

For survivability I am willing to sheep anyone's votes here. It is the best play, better anybody than me who I know is confirmed town by the mod.

But, I will give my pool {Archwing, Raskol, Wh4t, Kokichi}

[Kiana Kaslana]

Hi, Kokichi is being extra scummy for pushing my lynch right now for no reason, just like the rest of them. This argument is particularly silly:

Can someone please vote Kiana so we can end this day. If she was town she wouldn't be this hard to lynch.

I already said, all the scum are on my wagon. Nothing has changed at all from the start of day until now, my claim doesn't make a single difference at all to anybody's opinion. All the people voting me currently are the same pool pre-claim excluding Hiraki. There is no more scum left to pile onto me. The person hammering me will inevitably be town.

If I wasn't obligated to shoot Cedrick tonight, Kokichi would be my target. Archwing and Raskol were my previous picks earlier in the day, and I believe I have hinted about that enough previously.

[Kiana Kaslana]

For the sole objective of survivability, I have to vote the biggest wagon. This is the best pro-town play that is the opposite of self-hammering.

VOTE: Wh4t

[Kiana Kaslana]

If Hiraki was scum wouldn't he hammer me already?

[Kiana Kaslana]

Hi.

I see no progress has been made.

Are Hiraki and Kaito going to save our souls by voting wh4t? Clearly his self-vote was a joke to just test things.

Otherwise, how many people are open to a Archwing wagon.

I have to vote the largest wagon to survive because it's the best (only) play as town.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Oh, well.

[Kiana Kaslana]

Fun fact: I never get caught as scum, unless I want to be. ... Or I get guiltied by magic.

Good luck everyone.

[Kiana Kaslana]

You know it is.