Mini 2018 - American Presidents Mafia (Game Over)

[Keyser Söze]

Key's scum. That reads list is terrible.

My reads have been better than yours so far.

Most of the time you’re voting people whose playstyle you don’t like. Most of time on non alignment indicative factors.

[Keyser Söze]

It would take him literally two seconds to help me out... but he can't help because he's too busy rereading Mom's posts? It's bullshit, Skitter. Fake reason, too.

I was watching Lord of the rings the Two towers, but I was reading her posts on my phone.

[Keyser Söze]

That reads list is terrible.

Do you confidently t/lean any of Skitter, BS, TW, Mom?

[Keyser Söze]

I'm obvtown

Sadly not right now. Something just hasn't clicked right or you haven't communicated that connection between you and me/other players.

Why did you enter the day with that bad nightphase/pr spec/hinting? (scared me)

[Keyser Söze]

I don't get it because I'm not even pushing N_M.

Then why get upset me saying I have NM as null and unlikely to vote him today?

I'm not upset. I actually went into why I probably wouldn't ultimately lynch N_M here despite him easily being possibly scum because I think momrangal is hardscumming it up. But that doesn't mean I don't want to know how you arrived. Actually if you read my posts, which I thought you did but now I'm doubting, I was pretty much asking for you go into your reads and summarise somewhat overall (which you've now done in response to shoshin).

...but if you'd read my posts you'd know exactly how I feel about Not Mafia.

momrangal > Not Mafia makes more sense for D2 (so we agree there).

[Keyser Söze]

I'm obvtown

Sadly not right now. Something just hasn't clicked right or you haven't communicated that connection between you and me/other players.

Why did you enter the day with that bad nightphase/pr spec/hinting? (scared me)

huh?

Something something you were the N1 kill?

Sorry, I thought you were close to L-1, shouldn’t have brought this up.

[Keyser Söze]

Like, it makes sense for people who scumread Gamma to reevaluate their reads, because Gamma flipped town. But it's not so clear why Key's reevaluating in the way he is when he townread Gamma...

I’m not town reading Mom, but my will to kill her today has weakened.

I agree that Mom’s interactions/comments on Gamma D1 is likely to get them lynched today.

I think Mom should roleclaim now.

[Keyser Söze]

After Gamma was lynched so quickly I don’t want to risk it.

[Keyser Söze]

NotMafia is offwagon and could quickhammer. I think he’s infamous for that.

[Keyser Söze]

Yes, perhaps the early claim is a bad idea.

[Keyser Söze]

I accepted your scum read as coming from town. I accepted how you perceived my behaviour as scummy. It’s all wrong however (as explained by Nauci).

I haven’t accepted every scum read on me (I.e Shoshin’s theory that I had scum motivation to actively “hide” my meta).

Bernie Sanders said I could be experiencing tinfoil hat from hell which actually touched me last night.

Right now I’ve conceded that I need to sort/flip two players I’m not t/reading, who are scummy/suspicious in the conventional (on paper) sense. Mom and TW.

All of my town reads scum read me which makes this a difficult game for me.

[Keyser Söze]

Keyser has voted for Skitter30 and Bernie Sanders D1, and so far those are ALL of his votes???

I also voted Mom at EoD and asked the mod to amend the VC.
I do realise I haven’t voted today.

[Keyser Söze]

Based on my analysis of Gamma’s wagon, and TW’s 180 on Mom D2 (possibly survivalist), here is where I want heightened pressure 4 days before deadline:

VOTE: the worst

Sorry bro. Would like to play with you again though.

[Keyser Söze]

If both town then my tin foil hat is coming back on

[Keyser Söze]

From your point of view, we're either scum together, hes scum saving me for tomorrow (today) or hes town being pretty erratic.

Spot on. That's exactly the paranoia that has been running through my head D1 and D2.

[Keyser Söze]

That is amazing

[Keyser Söze]

“Knows I’m town”?

I’ll go through the progress of my read of you next

It will be good sanity check for myself too.

[Keyser Söze]

What do you mean? You’ve never anything but townread me, iirc

Awww Irrelephant, if I scum read you will you feel better about me?

[Keyser Söze]

Well you have been trying to kill townies so far... that’s a bit scummy. I may need to revise my read...

[Keyser Söze]

@BV RE: 1224
If you compare the urgency/emotion of Gamma during the first half of the game vs his charged last stand, you should be able to notice a significant difference in him letting his guard down. I think it actually made him feel more real/genuine to me, actually concerned about the game. If he’d began the game with a little more zest he’d be alive right now. Vulnerability can be a town trait.

[Keyser Söze]

You wrote: “Okay, just to be clear, you're saying that Gamma "cracked" in a way that made you think he was town?”

My thought: I don’t think the ‘cracking’ was strictly town indicative as such, but I would say it enabled/spurred him on to be more readable (which excited me).

[Keyser Söze]

Skitter wrote:
“i'm somewhere around

{shoshin}
{gustavo}
{you, bernie}
{}
{nauci}
{nm, errant} - null - can't read nm and i don't really think errant's done much AI either way
{irrelephant, keyser} - upon a mom townflip keyser goes way down
{}
{mom}
{tw}”



@skitter - are you currently voting Mom?

TW is scum tier below Mom in your reads.

I’m also concerned that it looks like you’re lining up my misslynch after a potential green flip on Mom. What if Mom flips scum, how does that effect your read on me then? I personally didn’t expect to be below NM and Errant in your reads.

[Keyser Söze]

Priorities for me are evaluating, in this order, momrangal, bv, errant, tw, Shoshin, Irrelephant unless Keyser/Skitter have suggestions

mom > tw > irrelephant > errant > bv

@skitter30 - would you put my name in there now, of players Nauci should consider to re-evaluate?

[Keyser Söze]

Spoiler: Mathdino Case on The Worst in Open 719

Subject: Open 719: Stack The Deck! (D4)

-The Worst - not really seeing scum TW

what does scum tw look like?

he looks like town

that's the problem. he can be motivation-read but he also knows i know that since i've gone over his scumgames with him

Subject: Open 719: Stack The Deck! (D4)

he's VERY good at replicating his town meta

i don't intend to fall for the trap of metaing him again

from his scumgame:

Regardless of alignment I tend to get lazy around power players. But I'd say I play a more tryhard scum game, and definitely a lazier town game if I can get away with it. It's largely not intentional, there's just big battles of personalities which I don't really have the energy to get involved in.

As scum I loathe bussing and try to consider my partner/s as remote possibilities at best. The biggest tell I can see from myself is that I try to adjust my style to suit apparent PRs and conftown as scum while as town, I tend to totally disregard their asses and try to work with "obvtown" or sort "probtown" players

Also. Low key I abhor drawing scum but it happens to me a lot. xD (2:2 finished games on MS and I'm almost policy lynch in a Discord server I play in sometimes because of how often I'm evil)

Lowlight of my year so far: trying to explain my scumgame without softclaiming scum with Not_Mafia

Subject: Open 719: Stack The Deck! (D4)

VOTE: Math lmfao still at page 20

D1 paranoia here was this is the first time Math hasn't tried to read me by like page 3. I was trying to work out if he had me pinned for a future mislynch but afrer one post (I'll find it if ppl want)

I figured he was just being cautious bc he's underestimated my scum range before.

Lukewarm associatives and WIFOM about how scum!tw would play with town!math after our last game noice

welcome back

- i've literally played 2 games with you? the first time i replaced in and read you by VCA in my first posts. the second time, yeah, i'd seen 2 of your towngames (counting the one i modded) and i figured you were playing it and locked a townread on you.
the bolded is true though. so what exactly are you voting me for?

- that kind of WIFOM logic is also how i got a read on beefster in earthbound (based on how scum!beef would play against me after the last time i lynched him).
so are you voting me for anything other than BoP?

Subject: Open 719: Stack The Deck! (D4)

You had really good intuition with noticing the bad D1 wagons all around. mutant and Screenplay were easy mislynches, and often are lynchbait in other games. Townhunting is often more important than scumhunting. Problem is I think Espeonage assumed you were scum who already knew they were town.

You nailed Jay and Montosh. Jay really outplayed town with the super convincing roleblocker claim.

the worst, you fully know i think highly of your towngame
and also your scumgame
i just don't believe you think i'm scum here

Subject: Open 719: Stack The Deck! (D4)

1. Stay in the background D1, make smart sounding statements but don't step on any toes. Never be the scummiest person.

2. Broadcast that you're gonna claim PR. Bonus points if you do this as town anyway.

3. Openly push scum wincon without looking like you're trying to. Play dumb at every opportunity. If experienced players are trying to lynch town, defer to them. Bonus BONUS points if they're trying to lynch good town.

4. Get indignant when people try to lynch you. OMGUSing acceptable.

5. Ham it alllll the way up to the point where half your posts are scumclaims while the other half are "townslips" and dumbtells because you're having fun playing scum and you're having fun fucking with town's heads. You're having even more fun when you know you won't get lynched through a PR claim.

sound about right?

Well since I am having a little trouble deciding how to feel about The Worst refusing to respond to any of my questions (any of anyone's questions?), I went to look up a little wisdom. We all are sad Math isn't here and think he's pretty good at reading The Worst, Not_Mafia, and more, right? So here's Math's posts casing TW from our game. And some quotes from TW on his own scum play from somewhere else.

I'll let y'all decide for yourselves if this stuff applies here because I don't want to confbias, I only want to provide evidence. I have to go find some The Town games but preferably when it's not 6 AM.

This does sound awfully familiar.

@the worst - is Nauci's fear rational?
In your own words, what is scum!TW?

[Keyser Söze]

Why did you protect Gustavo @Shoshin?

[Keyser Söze]

I hope you can repair your relationship with Gustavo.

[Keyser Söze]

I wanna lynch someone

Why didn’t you join the TW or Momrangel wagons? They’re the two likeliest lynchs for D2.

[Keyser Söze]

... and it takes a half a second to click my profile.

I was hoping this ‘trying-to-hide-scum-meta’ narrative had died.

[Keyser Söze]

Yeah, looks like the only reaction Shosh got was out of you

[Keyser Söze]

@Nauci

- I still don’t fully trust Bernie like the rest of you. He says all the right things but I still haven’t got a strong town read of him (the same way I have on a stungun or Shos type slot when they open their mouth (different aura as they say). Bernie thinks I’m suffering from tin foil hat hell.. maybe.

- you can accuse me of being not ‘helpful’ but I was busy... and the fact Shos started to scum read me for it just made me incensed so I maybe went over board with being obstinate and childish.

- I’ve already talked about why I wouldn’t vote NM today. I also think my vote on him won’t help me sort him or encourage him open up. Even the f****g mod is outposting him. Letting him live doesn’t mean I’m t/reading him. I have better leads to look at on D2. D3 is new day. New information or a flip may change my perspective...

[Keyser Söze]

I didn’t call you rude, I was saying I didn’t want to be rude (because I was holding back vulgar language directed at you).

You caught me at a bad time, and I felt your scum narrative regarding my motivation to not post links to all my town/scum games was reachy/inane/disgenuine.

I do admit my reaction made something innocent into something that has been blown out of proportion.

[Keyser Söze]

If I was a doctor who protected somebody and there wasn’t a Nk, I certainly would never vote them or worry that they voted the same person as me.

But hey I’m different I guess

I’ll keep quoting this until somebody explains why town doctor would vote the person they most likely saved from a NK.

This isn’t about tunneling cause I’m not voting the claimed doctor anymore, but this is about evaluating if the claim makes sense with the persons actions.

People seem to believe the claim at face value but this isn’t the time to just believe things at face value.

She said for reactions...? Bait scum? The protection may not even be the reason why there was no NK...

I don’t know Gustavo. But we are not lynching a claimed doctor on D2. Let the night phase resolve your paranoia.

[Keyser Söze]

I didn’t call you rude, I was saying I didn’t want to be rude (because I was holding back vulgar language directed at you).

You caught me at a bad time, and I felt your scum narrative regarding my motivation to not post links to all my town/scum games was reachy/inane/disgenuine.

I do admit my reaction made something innocent into something that has been blown out of proportion.

Why'd you make up a bullshit excuse if you never intended to post links? And why get upset when I called you out for spewing bullshit? That doesn't make sense to me.

It was a half truth. I was watching a film, reading through Mom’s D2 posts on my phone.
I refused to link the games.
I’m stubborn.
It escalated.
You scum read me for it.

You should know though, you had Gustavo as strong town but have put him through hell and back (because you are stubborn) I’d hate to see how you treat your scum reads!

You can cross out the hide-meta-theory from your book of scum tells.

[Keyser Söze]

I agree that Mom should role-claim with around 24 hours left on the clock, the majority of players have her in their bottom three reads. This looks inevitable.

[Keyser Söze]

NotMafia is offwagon and could quickhammer. I think he’s infamous for that.

Would have preferred the rc first.

[Keyser Söze]

@Irrelephant - do you agree with me that there wasn’t much town cred to be won for mafia for being on Mom’s wagon?

(The fact it was an inevitable D2 lynch between Mom or TW).



@Not_Mafia - now’s the time to start opening up, yes you hammered scum, but given the nature of D2, you get no town points from me and are still in the unsorted category.

[Keyser Söze]

Yeah, still not happy with TW (his 180 on Mom was unsettling).

[Keyser Söze]

Town reads on gustavo and Irrelephant11 still strong.

[Keyser Söze]

I don’t think VCA clears Keyser.

Yes I had my EoD1 vote on Mom...
Yes, I had Mom in my bottom two scum reads on D2 but never voted for him..
Yes, I asked Mom to roleclaim at L-2 way before the deadline...
Yes, I decided to kickstart the TW wagon instead of jumping on the lead wagon...

But you’ll find the reasons why all in my ISO.

If you do not understand my motivation in any of the above I’ll explain.

[Keyser Söze]

PLEASE NOTE remember scum had day chat D1 and D2, so could strategize wagon formation and distancing.

[Keyser Söze]

I had a Bernie-Mom scum team theory on D1, so will re-read my notes.

But I liked Bernie’s posting D2 tbf.

[Keyser Söze]

I don’t think VCA clears Keyser.

Yes I had my EoD1 vote on Mom...
Yes, I had Mom in my bottom two scum reads on D2 but never voted for him..
Yes, I asked Mom to roleclaim at L-2 way before the deadline...
Yes, I decided to kickstart the TW wagon instead of jumping on the lead wagon...

But you’ll find the reasons why all in my ISO.

If you do not understand my motivation in any of the above I’ll explain.

1. Distancing and avoiding a mislynch
2. That’s part of why I scum read you. Putting buddies as scum but not pushing them is common scum play
3. And?
4. And?

Nothing you just said makes me think I’m wrong.

1. That would be badscum/lazy distancing play.
2. Correct optimum scum play would have been to put consistent pressure on Mom throughout D1 and D2 who had a poor game due to activity.
3. I was scared of Not Mafia’s quickhammer (made sense at the time, but changed my mind)
4. Why push a counter wagon at that point of the game?

[Keyser Söze]

Mom’s early D1 tunnelling of Invisibility was irregular - it was that behaviour that made me suspect her originally.

Sometimes nervous scum can only focus on their partner as a good way to buy into a game...

So I wouldn’t give too many town points to Not Mafia’s slot.

[Keyser Söze]

Zzz

This is great and all but let's all build a wagon on actual scum

VOTE: invisible

Does any know Mom’s scum meta well enough to know if she comes into D1 posting that on her scum partner?

[Keyser Söze]

Irrelephant11
Shoshin
stungun0404
Keyser Soze

Mathdino
Bernie

Nauci
the worst
northsidegal*
Invisibility

Gamma Emerald
skitter

That's where I stand. Moved invis with meta considered

I bet you a million dollars there is at least one scum in his ‘null’ pile.

I am rethinking my read on Bernie, and I think he's going after low hanging fruit duck.

Bernie made a huge ass case on duck, and his tone and I agree with the lack of direction but I entirely disagree with duck being given enough space. I have that slot as null, but I honestly don't find his pred scummy outside the supposed semi-trustish whatever tell you want to call it regarding him replacing out. Even if whatsherface and skits (I think it was) told each other that they were excited to play the same alignment, I don't think replacing out should ever be alignment indicative and no one really has given duck a chance to do more than get his feet wet.

He even said that the wagon would have zero effect because he lacks time and wouldn't have it later in the week but absolutely no one has payed attention to that little tidbit.

Further more, this case on duck came when after duck said he wouldn't have any time to defend himself, and after duck is at a vulnerable L-2 (1?) position making it completely viable that duck gets lynched before he even had more time to get himself busy.

He also pushes duck but still takes a wholly neural stance on the matter so that, when popular scum read duck flips town, he can take the blame off himself considerably easier than most others gunning for his lych

Hmm... would Mom say her scum partner Bennie is going after low hanging fruit scum partner The Worst..? Probably not.

[Keyser Söze]

VOTE: Nauci

Though I would prefer a Bernie wagon

What do you think about bernie

This is what helped to stir Mom-BS bad feels in me on D1. Mom was talking about BS alot but not following it up with a vote...

[Keyser Söze]

Also, I feel like everyone has made a decision on duck based on his pred replacing out.

Sure it was weird, but Gemini was engaging before she ghosted. It doesn't seem like no one had taken into consideration that she replaced out because of IRL reasons and it didn't seem like anyone looked for proof in other games she might be in.

That being said, duck has 30 pages to read to catch up on and that's not an easy feat

Hard defence of TW. Wow, would Mom really defend her scum partner like this??

[Keyser Söze]

Elephant is a town read, and i feel like hes succumbing to a bit of paranoia. I dont really like it when i have pretty confident townreads and i cant really work with them

I like this as Mom talking to a townie here.

Mom throwing in a bit of AtE which actually nearly turned Irrelephant11’s scum read of Mom.

[Keyser Söze]

My reads post-flips, mostly independent of vca, would be something like

Gustavo
Bernie
skitter
errantparabola
nauci
blackvoid
keyser
the worst
not_maf

with an acknowledgment that I have this feeling that one scum is in my blind spot

Why am I back down there below BV?
Do you read what you post?

[Keyser Söze]

Do you see Mom’s obsession with Bernie as their attempt to lynch town, or a case of enthusiastic distancing (as she knew her time was up)?

[Keyser Söze]

Oops just read your post

[Keyser Söze]

Possibly yeah actually, like laying down the foundation for a fake distancing attempt(?)

[Keyser Söze]

OoOooOOoooOoOOOOO

who else had a good night?

Nearly missed this...
Well at least that explains your D1/D2 playstyle and energy.
Wellplayed

[Keyser Söze]

i don't believe like any of this ftr

If he gives false info he gets insta-lynched?

[Keyser Söze]

“I’m a PR, And I was the N1 target”

Pretty discreet in my opinion....

[Keyser Söze]

Take a look at the scummeta Nauci dug up on TW on D2

If TW is town here it is genius play. What a gambit. Play out your scum meta to perfection, but actually be the town PR to save the game

[Keyser Söze]

I dunno the meta Nauci presented strengthened my desire to see his flip on D2.

[Keyser Söze]

Are you waiting for reactions/players to post TW?

[Keyser Söze]

Are you waiting for reactions/players to post TW?

yes, transparently

Then you don’t mind all these weird votes?

FairPlay mate, ride it.

[Keyser Söze]

I hope you made this as town brother

I was gonna make it my new avatar

[Keyser Söze]

VOTE: Not_Mafia whaddup

Gonna sheep this.

It is now D3, so you are now a viable wagon.

Anyone who is not a town read is now a threat/harmful to town as we head towards Judgement Day.

VOTE: Not_Mafia


Thoughts on Momrangels posts, TW’s dramatic play, and your scum reads please.

[Keyser Söze]

Trying to parse what a scum reaction to a town!tw would look like and I think it looks like Keyser, or silence

Your reaction was pretty shit mate. You don’t vote for a claimed PR. Scum may have a double voter. Then the info would have died with TW. So no, my reaction was not the worst. Thank you .

[Keyser Söze]

That’s a bad vote. NM is always useless. Voting them won’t help

He’s not L-1 and please don’t defend him. If you keep reinforcing his playstyle I don’t get to see a reaction.

[Keyser Söze]

That’s a bad vote. NM is always useless. Voting them won’t help

See this isn’t true though, I’ve seen NM play in a helpful way at least twice (once in a game I replaced into, once in a game i spectated). He’s capable of being pro-town if he is town, even while keeping o his quiet meta, and is choosing not to be

Pedit: wow for someone who thinks I’m town “pretty shit mate” is, surprising?? Like tw basically claimed PR at the start of D2, if not D1, and scum hasn’t touched him. It’s also part of his scum meta to claim pr. I think it’s perfectly reasonable to vote tw right now, thanks, and that’s why I am leaning town!peoplevotingtw, because only scum would know to believe him/have incentive to pretend to believe him.

I liked the possibility of this being a gambit. If he’s suicidal scum here I don’t understand his motivation. All of D2 he deserved to die. So the idea of him being a town PR kind of makes sense now. If my bottom two reads were scum then I’m happy and will leave this game.

You can be town but you can still be anti town. Should have at least waited for the reveal before voting him up IMO.

[Keyser Söze]

[Keyser Söze]

You think you can catch scum? You think guys like that come this close to getting caught, and stick their heads out?

If they come up for anything it'll be to get rid of me. After that... my guess is you'll never hear from them again.

<3

I hope your info is convincing mate. I'm being scum read over my reaction to your claim

[Keyser Söze]

Heisenberg avatar on Keyser Söze seems kind of weird to me. Why not a Keyser Söze avatar?

I prefered your Gustavo avatar. Reminded me how much I loved that show. Plus was gonna do roleplay tomorrow. Will change it to EP's read diagram if he's town

[Keyser Söze]

I want to be awake when you reveal.

Its 00:46 here, should I go to sleep of stay awake?

[Keyser Söze]

I am rethinking my read on Bernie, and I think he's going after low hanging fruit duck.

Bernie made a huge ass case on duck, and his tone and I agree with the lack of direction but I entirely disagree with duck being given enough space. I have that slot as null, but I honestly don't find his pred scummy outside the supposed semi-trustish whatever tell you want to call it regarding him replacing out. Even if whatsherface and skits (I think it was) told each other that they were excited to play the same alignment, I don't think replacing out should ever be alignment indicative and no one really has given duck a chance to do more than get his feet wet.

He even said that the wagon would have zero effect because he lacks time and wouldn't have it later in the week but absolutely no one has payed attention to that little tidbit.

Further more, this case on duck came when after duck said he wouldn't have any time to defend himself, and after duck is at a vulnerable L-2 (1?) position making it completely viable that duck gets lynched before he even had more time to get himself busy.

He also pushes duck but still takes a wholly neural stance on the matter so that, when popular scum read duck flips town, he can take the blame off himself considerably easier than most others gunning for his lych

Again, I don't think this is the way Mom describes/defends their scumpartner (the worst). She's begging for us to give TW a chance to prove themselves, and try to see past that suspicious replace out by Gemini.

If TW is scum this is actually some impressive anti-distancing from Momrangel here.

Perhaps this really is scum attacking town for going after lynchbait (and I had Bernie and TW completely wrong on D2)

[Keyser Söze]

@Gustavo - what do you make of Mom's posts RE: TW/Gemini... Indicative of anti-associations?

[Keyser Söze]

VOTE: Gustavo

Bad vote.

How can I make a good vote if I'm barely reading the game?

VOTE: Mom

Why did you vote Mom?

Did you decide to start reading the game?

Tell me why this isn’t a bus vote.

[Keyser Söze]

@skittles

Do you think scum-TW has given up today? (he’s decided for D3 to be about him, with the potential of it being 9 town vs 1 Mafia going into N3) Is he

that

confident that his scum partner is that well town read / hidden?

Is there ANYTHING from his D1/D2 play that backs up this trying-to-look-scummy-but-really-a-town-pr narrative?

[Keyser Söze]

VOTE: Gustavo

Bad vote.

How can I make a good vote if I'm barely reading the game?

VOTE: Mom

Why did you vote Mom?

Did you decide to start reading the game?

Tell me why this isn’t a bus vote.

This isn't a bus vote

Do you dislike any of the votes on Momrangel on D2 (i.e do you think his wagon was full of 7 townies)?

[Keyser Söze]

I like keyser as scum because he wasn't on the lynch but asked for a claim. You ask for a claim when someone is at L-1 and intent is given, you don't ask at l-2. i don't really see him pushing hard for that lynch either. like he didn't want to bus which makes sense as they would lose day talk.

D1: I was happy with a Bernie and/or mom lynch.

D2: I was happy with a mom and/or TW lynch.

I agree that I didn't think I've pushed any of these wagons hard (but that doesn't make me scum). I think if scum are all in the lacklustre/low content/low activity slots I'll never have a meaty scum read to get excited about any of them (IMO, it's a boring way for scum to play). It'll be more about PoE this game and association theory, as I've felt much better with my town reads this game. So far... a 100% record

RE: asking for roleclaim early, that was based solely on NotMafia playing this game. It had nothing to do with my personal read of Mom. I.e if it'd been you at L-2 I'd probably been just as precautious.

[Keyser Söze]

VOTE: not mafia

I want him to either start playing the game or gtfo. I can't accurately read somebody who doesn't allow himself to be read.

"That’s a bad vote. NM is always useless. Voting them won’t help"

[Keyser Söze]

yes I realize what I said earlier. I'm fine with letting him get lynched now. he is either scum or town playing against his win condition.

Good, that's why your earlier post annoyed me. It was reinforcing his playstyle. In the website I'm from we have a zero tolerance for that, which forces them to break out of their unreadable playstyle. It makes the game more enjoyable too. If NotMafia is a genius and can name me Mom's two scum partners, then please continue. Otherwise, please play as a team.

[Keyser Söze]

I am rethinking my read on Bernie, and I think he's going after low hanging fruit duck.

Bernie made a huge ass case on duck, and his tone and I agree with the lack of direction but I entirely disagree with duck being given enough space. I have that slot as null, but I honestly don't find his pred scummy outside the supposed semi-trustish whatever tell you want to call it regarding him replacing out. Even if whatsherface and skits (I think it was) told each other that they were excited to play the same alignment, I don't think replacing out should ever be alignment indicative and no one really has given duck a chance to do more than get his feet wet.

He even said that the wagon would have zero effect because he lacks time and wouldn't have it later in the week but absolutely no one has payed attention to that little tidbit.

Further more, this case on duck came when after duck said he wouldn't have any time to defend himself, and after duck is at a vulnerable L-2 (1?) position making it completely viable that duck gets lynched before he even had more time to get himself busy.

He also pushes duck but still takes a wholly neural stance on the matter so that, when popular scum read duck flips town, he can take the blame off himself considerably easier than most others gunning for his lych

Again, I don't think this is the way Mom describes/defends their scumpartner (the worst). She's begging for us to give TW a chance to prove themselves, and try to see past that suspicious replace out by Gemini.

If TW is scum this is actually some impressive anti-distancing from Momrangel here.

Perhaps this really is scum attacking town for going after lynchbait (and I had Bernie and TW completely wrong on D2)

@Gustavo

What are your thoughts on the above (RE: Momrangel-the worst associations).

[Keyser Söze]

Reading his past games, he seems to have an aggressive side when he thinks he's found scum that he seems to be trying to reign in this game

Read Momrangel's D1 ISO, there was nothing exciting to chew on, or get aggressive about, I personally wasn't convinced of her scum flip...
My EoD1 opinion:

talk to me more about why you think mom is scummy, I feel like she's been nearly scumsensus for awhile but I never understood the case after "she had a bad entrance"

Unfortunately PoE.

If you exclude the early fixation of Invisibility (think you could label him lynchbait), you would be hard pressed to give a definitive scum case.

Confirm bias has effected my read of them (based on their interactions with BS and Gamma).

Am I confident? Hell no.

I had nothing tangible to explore, and no one-on-one interactions with Mom to draw tone from.

[Keyser Söze]

I was actually thinking it points against Mom and the worst being scum partners.

Do you think opposite to that (based on the post I quoted)?

I.e Do you think this is all staged to give TW town-cred through anti-distancing?

[Keyser Söze]

24 hours without elaborating on his claim (likely because he didn't find anything to help him make something plausible up?).

These delay tactics. Ugh.

I hope he roleclaims in the next 7 days We need time to chat about the claim / form a counter wagon.

[Keyser Söze]

I think given the mom scum flip, bernie looks town. mom is basically trying to discredit bernie in that post for his push on the worst. why would mom need to do that if the worst was town?

Yes, Mom was attacking Bernie for going after low hanging fruit (TW).

What does that indicative RE: TW’s alignment... that’s my question...



P.EDIT just read BV’s comment describing it as “normal scum play”. Wouldn’t the conventional distancing scum play be to scum read TW (and not defend TW)? That’s my dilemma right now.

[Keyser Söze]

EP wrote:
“I think that the most important part to reading keyser right NOW is the fact that he thinks worst is plausibly a genuine PR and I will wait to see worst claim his result and keyser act on it before I make a judgment in that part.”

My thoughts:
I really hope TW is town here (for his own sake ). TW deserved to die D2. His ISO has lacked WIM since D1. The scum meta evidence that Nauci provided D2 wanted me to see his flip even more. But the possibility of him playing out a successful town gambit with a crucial GUILTY investigation has admittedly made me want to give him a second chance. Anything is possible. This doesn’t mean I think he’s towncleared. As I said, false information = insta-lynched.

[Keyser Söze]

yes I realize what I said earlier. I'm fine with letting him get lynched now. he is either scum or town playing against his win condition.

Nope

Yes.

Show me something that scum-Not_Mafia couldn’t do.

[Keyser Söze]

RE: Mathdino-Mom associations: Mom was very fence-sittery/flip-floppy on Mathdino, unwilling to give him an early full town read. She ends with a town gut read on Mathdino though, which would have been harder to go against later (so not really seeing it as Mom opening up avenues to later bus her partner). Perhaps by post #513 Mathdino shouldn’t have been that high though. With few interactions/remarks it would be hard to say that this massively helps or goes against the Mathdino slot. I would lean on the good side though if forced to make a judgement (I.e Mom knew Mathdino was town, but didn’t want to broadcast it)

[Keyser Söze]

@EP - why do you think TW chose you? (It’d been easier to stir up a wagon/fake a guilty on me or Not Nafia).

[Keyser Söze]

Oh, and why did you unvote?
You’re the one person I would have expected to keep their vote on TW... because you should

know

he’s lying... ?

[Keyser Söze]

[Keyser Söze]

No bro. TW. I want the grand reveal. Then we’re down to one scum either way.

[Keyser Söze]

If we sort TW and NM today, it makes this game alot easier (that’s why I’m imploring NM to do something alignment indicative)

[Keyser Söze]

Reading BV’s D2 catchup posts, tbh he wrote some very good posts on scum-Mom and scum-TW (both scum in isolation) But ended up concluding both couldn’t be scum (due to VCA?).

[Keyser Söze]

I'm ant as scum would need to lynch Nauci specifically. If he can get Nauci to back off with an emotional-type appeal, that's just as good for him.

[.

[Bernie and Nauci pushes as well.

intersting to note that mom votes nauci and duckling moves his vote off of mom onto nauci. i'm *pretty* sure from voting patterns that mom and duckling aren't scum together even though mom's defending him; the timing of their votes don't really feel like partners to me.

I noticed that too but my impression was that they wanted to swing momentum onto another viable-looking wagon as an alternative to TheWorst. I didn't like how Momrangal defended both Irrelephant and TheWorst and pushed their attackers and tried to get a wagon going elsewhere.

she feels less attached and engaged here and I cannot shake the feeling that her posting is pushing an agenda and specific preconceived stances rather than actively forming opinions fluidly as she goes.

If by "agenda," you mean Nauci's push on Irrelephant, how do you differentiate between scum pushing a agenda and town pushing their scumreads when they develop a read they feel confident in? I'm not sure what agenda is being served by going all-out on D1 talking about how good Irrelephant is as scum and hard-pushing a case and trying to convince a lot of people that their townread is wrong as opposed to going for an easier lynch, bringing up Irrelephant-paranoia later on. People are generally more willing to lynch good scumplayers out of paranoia if they are alive too long than on D1.

I've caught up to page 47. I'll take a break and continue later. I don't think I'll read the whole game today but I'll try to finish up before I leave for work tomorrow.

[Keyser Söze]

Oops only meant to quote the middle part. Phone posting.


BV really exposing her teammates voting strategy??! (mom-TW)

[Keyser Söze]

Yes this would be described as aggressive distancing.

[Keyser Söze]

Wow so TW has a guilty on BV?

[Keyser Söze]

If EP allowed the investigation on scum BV to be carried out N2.. does that indicate town EP???! I’m confused

[Keyser Söze]

Could explain why TW was pissed off with EP voting him too..

TW has told EP his D2/N2 plan.

[Keyser Söze]

Why is me being town so confusing to you?!?!?!?!?!?

I need a town clear before I change my avatar!

[Keyser Söze]

Neigbourizer.. is that usually town aligned in these type of games on mafiascum?

[Keyser Söze]

thank you. I kept trying to discreetly tell people that keeping me alive was good. >:/

for the record EP plays a part in why I had such a lovely night.

Sounds like TW got a guilty, and EP didn’t roleblock/NK TW, knowing that’d he’d target (BV?).


@the worst?

[Keyser Söze]

He may have an innocent on me... his scum read of me disappeared (compare D1 vs D2)...?

[Keyser Söze]

Where did BV go?

[Keyser Söze]

Your ISO dive on BV was well timed Irrelephant11

[Keyser Söze]

thank you. I kept trying to discreetly tell people that keeping me alive was good. >:/

for the record EP plays a part in why I had such a lovely night.

Sounds like TW got a guilty, and EP didn’t roleblock/NK TW, knowing that’d he’d target (BV?).


@the worst?

Wat

Let’s wait to hear from TW

[Keyser Söze]

Chance of being scum in this game: 23.08%
Chance of a neighbouriser being scum: 25%

therefore

VOTE: Errantparabola

Is this the best way to scum hunt on D3?

[Keyser Söze]

Yeah wait what?

It sounded like EP and TW shared a PT N2... TW said he was going to investigate BV.

If BV is scum and EP is scum... why didn’t EP NK TW? Thus, if BV is scum, EP is likely town.

Gonna stop theorising though... look forward to TW’s next play.

[Keyser Söze]

There’s a 25% chance you’re scum why should I trust you?

[Keyser Söze]

[Keyser Söze]

Are you waiting for reactions/players to post TW?

yes, transparently

Whose reaction are you waiting for? Which player are you waiting to post? Are you waiting for me to counter claim?

[Keyser Söze]

You said “transparently”.

[Keyser Söze]

Fine, as long as it’s part of the gambit and doesn’t evolve into unnecessary anti-town selfish behaviour.

[Keyser Söze]

I'm reading Momrangal's ISO right now so I'll post comments on interactions as I read them.

On TheWorst, I actually think there are some things that point away from him being scum. Like the last sentence of 1297. It seems like Momra caught a crumb from TheWorst and used that as a reason to divert away from him knowing he has a claim up his sleeve to prevent his mislynch. 794 on Bernie - feels like she's trying to set up Bernie for a TheWorst townflip. 2261 is another post where Momra picks up on TheWorst's soft claim and it feels genuine enough as not a scum-scum interaction.

I think the vote on Nauci in 799 is pretty odd. I don't know what it says about Nauci's alignment but I'm going to read the context.

I also want to point out that Momra reluctantly backed off of her Invisibility push after Shoshin pushed her hard on it suggests that Not_Mafia is town.

Yes, there is surprisingly some good evidence for anti-distancing via Momrangel’s posts talking about TW. I came out of reading Mom’s ISO liking TW more

The point about Shoshin/Invisibility is interesting. I wish Not Mafia would provide his own reasons for being town though.

[Keyser Söze]

If me, skitter, Bernie, and Gustavo can all trust each other, the odds of this game being a town win go way up.

Outside of that I'm not really sure which of the other six players are scum. I do think Not_Mafia is the likeliest to be town among them but it's not as solid as my other reads. That still leaves about five people that I need to sort through: Nauci, Irrelephant, Keyser Soze, TheWorst, ErrantP.

You trust Not Mafia more than me?

I could understand Gustavo being higher than me (due to Shoshin saying he protected Gustavo, and we had no NK on N1)... but this just takes the biscuit Do you know Not Mafia is town? Because he should be in everyone's null zone right now.

I think you should present your reads using that graph Errant designed

[Keyser Söze]

You really should read the thread more closely. I explained my Not_Mafia townread over the last page. You can't arbitrarily claim that people should be in everyone's null zone. The whole point of this game is to figure out alignments. When you can't do it through their content (such as with Not_Mafia), you do it through how they interacted with flipped scum, what their predecessors did, and how flipped scum interacted with them. It's a fact that Momrangal started off making a hard push on Invis. It's a fact that N_M hammered Momrangal before she could draw out a claim. Those are points indicating slight town.

My read on you is actually pending until I read through your ISO with flip in mind. I'm not yet sure whether I trust you more than N_M. I'll figure out an order to my reads once I read through everyone and make a list.

Apologies - I forgot it was you who made post #2764 too. Tbh you're one of the few (if not only) players presenting N_M as town.

[Keyser Söze]

The worst loves this though:

hedonistic at the expensive if the player list?
me?
nevah~ :3

I bet he’ll claim at the end of the weekend.

[Keyser Söze]

Bernie's D2 tour de force annihilation of momrangel:

"I think mom-TW then probably N_M, if not then BV/math slot. Mom tw have to die though."
"Actually should probably do mom anyways."
"You can live today if you vote momrangal."
"Momrangals first focus here on a townread somewhat betraying(?) her rather than on who is scum or analyzing anything given gamma flipped is no bueno."
"But this reaction is kind of evasive and somewhat talking around the point or of making judgment"
"VOTE: momrangal"
"This is weak"
"there's no take or interpretation on her take in regard to what I wrote around it in thread."
"Everyone should probably either vote momrangal or at minimum respond to my points on her."
"I literally don't know what momrangal is doing because she's not engaging me but also isn't trying to wagon me."
"can you respond to my mom points and tell me why you have a TW preference."
"@Nauci I agree with you on TW for the most part but in spite of everything I think he's a bit more risky compared to mom lynch"
"I guess people can cross reference this but this is like really really bizarre to me"
"Gustavo my concern of why wagoning momrangal might have been risky EOD d1 doesn't exist today."
"I guess mom can claim if she wants but tbh I really don't think I'd believe any PR claim that comes out of her to begin with."

[I thought Bernie and mom were scum partners D1 (I didn't believe their suspicion of eachother was sincere... and didn't like Bernie ending up on Gamma's wagon instead of Mom's... but perhaps I was looking too much into Mom's side though..), but now on D3 I've just gotta put my hands up and accept that Bernie could just be a townie who nailed Mom as scum as early as D1 and crucified Mom on D2, taking ownership of her wagon. I kinda like how Bernie even gave me room to suspect him, linking him with scum, but not OMGUS'ing me... he gently told me I was suffering from 'tin foil hat from hell'. Perhaps scum-Bernie would have become more nervous, aggressive or unsettled with me linking him with his scum partner D1, but that wasn't the case. I'm finally happy to bury my paranoia of the Bernie slot.]

[Keyser Söze]

UNVOTE: Not_mafia

[Keyser Söze]

OoOooOOoooOoOOOOO

who else had a good night?

Now, if I was scum and read this at the start of D3 (and feared ‘town’-TW had likely got a guilty on my scum partner)

what would I do?

I would probably start to

bus my teammate

, pre-empting TW’s result reveal.



Now if I were to re-read D3, which player could fit this narrative...?





New scum team theory incoming....!

[Keyser Söze]

TW definitely did not gunsmith check anyone last night.

VOTE: the worst

[Keyser Söze]

still flipping town

Scum-Bernie Sanders was being town read by the majority of the playerlist.
Scum-Bernie Sanders did not need to fakeclaim a highly informative PR.
Scum-Bernie Sanders did not need to fake an investigation to say you didn't move N2.
Scum-Bernie Sanders did not need to set himself up for a reflex lynch.

[Keyser Söze]

Is

Mini 2018 - American Presidents Mafia

normal

?

/in to mod

Game Name:

American Presidents Mafia

Flavor/Mechanics:

In the distant future, a crisis of corruption in the United States Senate requires 13 senators to submit their DNA and work with an American President that most fits their personality.

Your Experience:

Open 721: Pick Your Poison

Current Modding Commitments:

None, but will be backup modding Cul de Sac in the Open Queue

Reviewed By:

Lycanfire, insanity018

Back-Up or Co-Mod:

HeWhoSwims

Number of Players:

13

Hydrae:

Sure, up to 3.

Restrictions:

None

Is it possible your game has any of the following bastard roles or mechanics? No

.

Oh, it's a closed set up with normal roles. I forgot to say that

.

[Keyser Söze]

Yes, I can confirm I am a Vanilla Townie.

Will conduct a thorough re-read before committing to a vote.

[Keyser Söze]

Is a mass roleclaim necessary at this point?

[Keyser Söze]

I got the no result n1 (tried to check N_M there FTR) and asked mod to specify it actually was a no result and not a no-visit. This one is clearly a no-visit.

So we’re hunting a mafia roleblocker?

What other roles would give a ‘no-visit’ result for when BS investigated N_M?

[Keyser Söze]

Oops I somehow missed that he started NM n1. That's big

I think the only "no result" ones would be roleblocker or jailer? Ninja would give "no visit"

So we’re dealing with a Mafia ninja then..?

I did wonder why Mafia didn’t just roleblock BS (create some WIFOM for that slot, you weren’t even 100% sold on the town tracker claim) and NK Skitters, another mass town read player / possible TPR?

[Keyser Söze]

Is Nauci in theory t/cleared here?


I.e
- scum-Nauci wouldn’t t/clear two townies
- scum-Nauci wouldn’t dare fakeclaim the investigative TPR we’ve been expecting in the setup?
- scum-Nauci wouldn’t expect town to keep her in the game if she survives subsequent night phases?

[Keyser Söze]

Oh I understand the terms now, so mafia roleblocker.

[Keyser Söze]

Do you wanna see something funny? Remember Invisibility...? Before she replaced out she nailed two of the three scum...



Invisibility's (Not_Mafia slot) D1 posts on

Momrangal

and

GeminiTwin12

before replacing out:

"

VOTE: Momrangal

your name makes me feel unpleasant"

"i'm feeling most nervous about this

VOTE: GeminiTwin12

3/4 of her posts are rehashes/easy to make
i would like to see more from her"

"i guess i can see mom's reason for suspicion but like it still isn't a good read, especially after now because mom should have more thoughts than just me seeming tryhardy"

"i want to scumread mom but it feels wrong to scumread mom right now"

The two players she expressed the most suspicion on were the momrangel and the worst slots. Invisibility also expressed town reads on: Shoshin, stungun, Keyser, skitter...


Now was this town-Invisibility having an excellent game, solving the game in under 10 posts...?
Or was this scum-Invisibility making an uncomfortable/awkward/timid start to the game, and throwing shade/suspicion on her two scum teammates? Momrangal's early D1 infatuation/tunnel of the invisibility slot makes this series of interactions that even more so suspicious

[Keyser Söze]

I was asking if you were in theory town cleared here (as in, does everyone agree with me).

I wasn't calling you scum.

Calm down.

[Keyser Söze]

I wanted BV to address all your points in his own words before I shared my own opinion.

[Keyser Söze]

@Nauci
- you ever seen any setups with a (weakened?) doctor and a 1-shot bulletproof townie?

I.e does it make sense balance wise?

[Keyser Söze]

I'm town let's lynch someone else

Who?

[Keyser Söze]

I'm town let's lynch someone else

Who?

Irrelephant maybe

Are you calling Nauci and Irrelephant scum?

[Keyser Söze]

Someone said N_M usually town clears himself around this time...?


Ftr, not seeing any signs of it. Not even seeing any insightful reads or thoughts...?

F**k knows which wincon he has, but it doesn’t look like the same as mine right now.

[Keyser Söze]

Who said anything about Nauci?

Nauci investigated him......

[Keyser Söze]

I think you towncleared me, can we lynch scum now>

VOTE: Irrelephant

Irrelephant11’s is very likely a Vanilla Townie.

Why do you think he is mafia?

[Keyser Söze]

Worst scum team ever

[Keyser Söze]

Either clueless townie who doesn’t know what the f**k has transpired in the last 3 days, or scum who’s given up from their Mafia team shit show. I don’t want either possibilities alive with the ability to vote/hammer.

We can lynch them today/tomorrow.

Will sort other slots for now.

[Keyser Söze]

We have time to talk about BV and our collective ‘town’ reads



I was hoping N_M was gonna show me signs of his famous scum hunting ‘skill’.

[Keyser Söze]

We have time to talk about BV and our collective ‘town’ reads



I was hoping N_M was gonna show me signs of his famous scum hunting ‘skill’.

NM doesn’t scum hunt. He’s a gut/feels player. He’s admitted that in a game we played. So don’t expect anything more than what you are already getting.

Gut feelings are fine, but it’s not going to convince the other town players to join you, or convince them of your reads or own alignment.

[Keyser Söze]

I mean if NM somehow sees with astounding clarity that BV was telling the truth, was the N1 target, and that Gustavo has been coasting on Shoshin's semi-Gus-clear, good on him I guess

I agree it doesn't seem very likely

I’m not quite sure that was N_M’s thought process but yes Gustavo is a player we can relook at while we wait for BV’s promised reply to Nauci’s case.

[Keyser Söze]

We have time to talk about BV and our collective ‘town’ reads



I was hoping N_M was gonna show me signs of his famous scum hunting ‘skill’.

NM doesn’t scum hunt. He’s a gut/feels player. He’s admitted that in a game we played. So don’t expect anything more than what you are already getting.

Gut feelings are fine, but it’s not going to convince the other town players to join you, or convince them of your reads or own alignment.

Not my problem

It is if you have a town win con. I have statistical evidence to prove that townies have a better chance of winning by working together

Do you want a link?

[Keyser Söze]

Yeah, go all the way back to StunGun who Towned up that slot in the first place too.

[Keyser Söze]

Hi everyone, can I have your thoughts on these 8 posts by stungun (Gustavo slot) - all in relation to the two flipped mafia slots:

i’d be most prone to join the gemini wagon as of right now because i don’t have any sort of town vibe from her yet, and i shared a town mason with her last game i played. i feel like her questions might have an intent of stirring the pot—so that would be my official reasoning. i would like to see more AI content from her. haven’t gotten much of that yet. i want to give her a chance to give some gamereads first though, because she’s not one i want to gang up on yet. after all, she’s the main reason i decided to join this game (well along with invisibility playing and mwnn’s alt modding). but i can’t deny that something feels off from her content so far.

Stungun said he played with gemini (the worst) just last game, so he'd have a good indication if gemini was playing differently. Here, very early, stungun broadcasts to everyone that he's not seeing the same town-gemini who he shared a masonry with. For me, this looks natural...

it’s worth noting, actually, that gemini and i stated in a pm before this game that we were really looking forward to being the same faction again this game; so her replacing out might actually be a scum-indicative replace-out, especially with her doing it after she’s put under pressure for the first time. i prompted her to sign up for this game, and we were looking forward to playing with each other again.

but at the same time, this could also mean she’s got things going on irl, that she has general disinterest, or other things. so i want to give her replacement a chance first before i jump to any conclusions from this, but also want to throw it out there since i am town this game and had already sensed that she might be scum. sure enough, it’s a scumlean for me until further content develops, though

You could say these two paragraphs are fence-sitting... but Stungun has strongly indicated that this is a scum-indicative replace-out (scum-Stun gun didn't need to reinforce that in our minds). I think the defensive/apologetic tone could be explained by the fact they were fresh from a completed game together... so he didn't want to be too harsh (?).

4 of those reads are fair, but what about momrangal’s 5 posts suggests town to you?

same with shoshin, what about momrangal rings you as town?

stungun challenging the town reads being expressed on Momrangel... why not just let your scum teammate be town read...(?)

@shoshin: my question for you is above, why do you townread momrangal?
my answer: their content so far would be extremely easy for scum to hide behind and skate to a victory with if kept up, so i definitely can’t give them even a townlean yet.

stungun directly confronting Shoshin's t/read of Mom... does stungun want t/cred for Mom's scum flip...? Can't see that from here. Has stungun actually even called Mom explicitly scum yet? Feels like a genuine null read that is frustrating him.

hot take: scum is among bernie, nsg, nauci, momrangal, and the worst

will vote momrangal or nauci if no one is willing to pressure nsg with me.

Names two mafia...

eh, i want a clear majority on a player whose not given much substantial content (as in townreads and such), so i’m absolutely not passing up this opportunity.

VOTE: Momrangal

Momrangal is now at L-3, so this slot could only probably fit one more vote for our purposes as of right now, but absolutely no more than that.

This looks like a pressure vote, more than a, I think-this-is-scum-lynch-it vote. He emphasizes the fact that he didn't want the wagon going beyond L-3! Scum-stungun wasn't gonna win any town-cred points suggesting that: in a sense he's opposing the mom D1 lynch.

Meanwhile, just looked through other nsg replace-outs to see if I could gather anything, and lo and behold I came across something suspicious. And given the circumstances, I do

feel confident

in asserting that one of the worst or nsg IS scum, because I feel there’s too much evidence between the two options that would support either replace-out being scum for them

BOTH

to be town. However, if one flips scum, I do find it highly unlikely the other flips scum, because having 2 scum replace-outs on d1 would surely be an outlier type of game. has anybody ever seen that happen?

Stungun basically stressing his theory that at least one is scum of the replace outs (and not both). Wouldn't scum-Stungun prefer to open up avenues than close them?

UNVOTE: Momrangal.

Still a null read for me, but I don’t think this slot is official D1 lynch material, and I’m actually more wary of the people that were on her wagon (the worst, nsg, and skitter), so back to the drawing board.

stun now opposing the mom wagon and suspicious of the players on mom's wagon!

[Keyser Söze]

I have no major issues of concern with those 8 posts either.

I.e Stungun hasn't acted in the way I would expect for him to behave knowing that mom/the worst are scum.

- I would have let the town core t/read Mom...
- I would have stayed on the mom wagon and not opposed it, nor emphasizing that I didn't want it to go further than L-3...
- I wouldn't have named both my partners in my hot take/bottom reads...
- I wouldn't have telegraphed my vote on mom as a mere pressure vote on a null read, I would have invested more distancing for t/cred...

[Keyser Söze]

Yeah the way I express myself sometimes isn’t clear or helpful but once you figure out I’m town I become obvious town.


Re: Errant, since the neighborizor claim (which is 75% town ) I’ve admittedly taken my eye off him, but warmed up to him before then. Will re-read his posts next in connection with the two lynches on scum.

[Keyser Söze]

looking at his interpretation of his town win con I think he’d hammer himself here

[Keyser Söze]

I forgot about the neighborizer.

town neighborizor balances out the scum day chat.. (?)

[Keyser Söze]

Yes please, mass role claim.

[Keyser Söze]

Can we wait til BV addresses Nauci’s case (while 3 town clears are still alive)

[Keyser Söze]

@Not_Mafia roleclaim too.

There may be a reason why he voted Irrelephant11 and Gustavo.............

[Keyser Söze]

Not_Mafia’s votes are beyond a joke now.

HOWEVER I say we put him to the side for now.
- BV needs to defend himself to Nauci (Nauci would be incensed if this doesn’t happen today, her investigations on me and Irrelephant has maybe won us the game so we owe her that)

Then we vote and end D4.
Everyone’s happy.

[Keyser Söze]

...and me and you are not two slots you t/clear... we were in some players PoE.
Clearing us as two VT’s is a masterstroke that helps us narrow down the lynch pool for the win.
Yes, was thinking rolecop earlier... but we’re hunting roleblocker.

[Keyser Söze]

write out cases on both of us or stfu and die

[Keyser Söze]

Poor

Gustavo next then EP

Explain why a townie should be town reading you?

Explain how a townie should be sheeping your scum case on Gustavo / Errant?

Whatever you think you are, or have tried to convey this game... you have failed.

[Keyser Söze]

Will reset my read on every player (except for Irrelephant). In my head I would have wanted a flip from BV or Errant today, but neither lynches fill me with confidence. Starting to wonder if Gustavo has done this ‘confirmation-bias’ stunt as scum before (I.e his tunnel on Shos). Skitter didn’t start well for me, but I began t/reading him around D3...?

Gonna go back to D1 with fresh eyes.

I want to find town (as I don’t think there is an obvious scum candidate right now... BV’s defence has been relentless).


Not_Mafia didn’t leave much to help us, he was voting nearly every player on D4 and didn’t explain why we should vote for Irrelephant/Gustavo/Errant. I knew he’d prove harmful to town.

[Keyser Söze]

Im Woodrow wilson, on the lines of using my own brain... and borrowing others.

I’m back home so reading through latest two pages, then ISO diving. Gonna just try pick out key posts that shout town or scum. Anything I’m uncertain on I’m not gonna bother highlighting.

[Keyser Söze]

Looking at N_M’s wagon, wasn’t it BV the only player saying why N_M was town? Gonna re-read why BV ended up on his wagon.

[Keyser Söze]

Reading through EP first.
Then BV.
Then Gustavo.
Then Skitter.

If I get at least two strong town reads out of this I will be delighted.

[Keyser Söze]

D1

No longer townreading worst.

D3:

I neighborized worst.

Why?

cause i thought he was town d1 and we're friends and i like him

[Keyser Söze]

Errantparabola ISO re-read to the END OF DAY 2.

THE GOOD

"Given the circumstances I'd say it's a plausible bus but that's crazy speculatory (although you heard it here first if i'm right !!)"

Errant expressing some healthy scum team paranoia between mom and Gamma.

"I think in the event that mom flips scum and TW is town, that irre deserves scrutiny"

Hmmm... some clever pre-flip analysis there... this would be cheeky by scum-Errant, knowing that TW is not town.

"i cant wait for mom and the worst to both inexplicably flip town and for us to lose the game"

Again, this is cheeky as f**k. WIFOM makes you t/read these type of posts. I do fel guilty puttin this in the GOOD category though.

THE WEIRD

"I have a dumb reason to townread the worst that I might go into later but probably not so just assume I'm right :>"
"I think worst's response to this question "oh he's just natural" seemed kind of fake so that's leaving me a little conflicted"
"Town or vague town or at least one concrete reason for town: the worst, Irre, Nauci, Shoshin, Bernie, Keyser"

Strange post about withholding a town read on scum-TW, followed by an observation calling TW fake... ending with TW in his town list (?)

"think that Key is so much scummier than the other two that you consider it a good move to try and start a wagon on him as opposed to joining a wagon"

Shos mentions a key/TW/mom scum team. Errant dislikes Shos' vote on me, instead of joining the existing wagons on TW/mom. Kinda feels like Errant is telling off Shos here, where Errant knows I'm town... and TW/mom are scum.

THE BAD

"based on how the wagons have played out (today specifically), I would be surprised if they were partners"
"I'll put some more weight behind this question and say that I think this matters a lot especially if there is exactly one scum between Mom and the worst, given the timing of irre's vote (it matters a lot less if it's 0 or 2)"

Just feel like Errant is trying to force us into thinking that the TW/mom wagons weren't both on scum.



[So far Errant isn't screaming town for me...D3 and D4 ISO next.]

[Keyser Söze]

Currently paranoid about the potential scum gambit of Errant faking a town-neighborizor role with TW... (who he himself probably faked a guilty on BV)...

Show me where Errant ended D1 t/reading TW...

D1 (I would have expected him to neighborize the following: "Keyser, Bernie, Irre are varying degrees of town.")

Was the neighborizor-gambit talked about in scum chat throughout D2 and N2 (where scum realised TW was going down whatever).

[Keyser Söze]

Can people show me why Errant is town outside the neighborizer claim.

[Keyser Söze]

Expected to come out t/reading Errant after that read, but full of doubt now.

This game will end me.


mathdino/BV next.

[Keyser Söze]

Spoiler: Everything BV said about Mom up to 2517

Zzz
This is great and all but let's all build a wagon on actual scum
VOTE: invisible

This is the entrance I liked the least. The "zzz" tries to give off the impression that Momrangal doesn't find anything that's been said so far to be useful and the term "actual scum" feels like she's saying she's got some really good insight that everyone else is missing. But she doesn't actually say what it is. This whole post just rubs me the wrong way. I think the discussion that's happened so far is fine for the first two pages and not worthy of a "zzz."

Cuz what I see is active lurking already happening.

How was Invisibility "active lurking?" At the time you said this, he had already inserted himself into skitter's and shoshin's back-and-forth and posted opinions and clarifications to help move it forward. I think that's fine for page 2. What else were you expecting?

All of his early posts reek of eagerness to look like he's doing something productive and meaningful while doing absolutely jackall.

He's sitting there looking pretty, playing it safe, and it looks like hes engaging with people but the questions are empty.

I'm not seeing how you got that from 39. It looks like he was clarifying whether Shoshin's scumread on Math was RVS or not.

...

DUCCKKKKYYYYYY!!!!if scum, never playing with Gemini again

I'm not following what you're trying to say here. Is replacing out as scum a blacklist-worthy offence? People replace out when they don't have time to play. Alignment should never be a factor.

...

That's to the end of page 30. Catchup is going slower than expected but I'm still hoping I'll be caught up by tonight. We shall see. Feel free to engage my posting. I feel like I have a bit more solid take on the game now. My focus from POE is mostly on Irrelephant, Momrangal, TheWorst, and Northsidegal's slot (but I haven't read any of the replacement's posts yet). I'll do an actual readslist when I'm caught up.

Momrangel's Bernie case and defense of TheWorst is 794 is really convoluted (she lampshaded it in her next post but it doesn't help). Why would Bernie be pushing a mislynch on someone who vouched for him being town? When there are so many other players that he could have pushed and even used TheWorst to help him push those lynches? I also don't get how Bernie was taking a "neutral stance" on TheWorst. And I don't think people would be so simplistic as to simply go after the ones who pushed TheWorst hardest in the event of a townflip. I also thought the narrative of TheWorst as the vulnerable player being piled on and mislynched by Bernie seems a bit forced.

Ugh Nauci you’re sounding towny sometimes but you keep calling for my lynch and it doesn’t feel like you actually think I’m scum you just want me lynched and I want us both to be town but we’re never gonna be able to work together if we are, are we

I highly doubt this is something scum would say to someone they are scum reading/trying to lynch.

I disagree. I don't think Irrelephant as scum would need to lynch Nauci specifically. If he can get Nauci to back off with an emotional-type appeal, that's just as good for him.

...

Also, I feel like everyone has made a decision on duck based on his pred replacing out.

Who did this besides you and Stungun? You literally said in 470 that if TheWorst is scum, you're never playing with Gemini again.

It doesn't seem like no one had taken into consideration that she replaced out because of IRL reasons

and it didn't seem like anyone looked for proof in other games she might be in.

That being said, duck has 30 pages to read to catch up on and that's not an easy feat

The bolded is super weird because you're the one reading into her replace out. You're also very charitable towards TheWorst which makes me not feel good because you're both in my POE pool and you're stretching pretty hard to defend him. I dislike your Bernie and Nauci pushes as well.

intersting to note that mom votes nauci and duckling moves his vote off of mom onto nauci. i'm *pretty* sure from voting patterns that mom and duckling aren't scum together even though mom's defending him; the timing of their votes don't really feel like partners to me.

I noticed that too but my impression was that they wanted to swing momentum onto another viable-looking wagon as an alternative to TheWorst. I didn't like how Momrangal defended both Irrelephant and TheWorst and pushed their attackers and tried to get a wagon going elsewhere.

Defending the worst comes across as towny to me here given how widely scumread tw was at the time - unless they’re scum together, in which case this seems like pretty bad play?

The problem with this is that none of the points Momra made in favor of TheWorst are actually good ones. I think I touched on this before but do you actually agree with the points Momra is making about TheWorst?

...

794 and surrounding were solid af fmpov. like I am not a fan of how I was positioned as scum for my predecessor and irl busyness here. it crossed my mind several times that I was an easy af push for scum to hide behind, and

I found Mom seeing things exactly the same way.

either she's town or has me pocketed hard but I'm not sure what scum!Mom's method is in WKing me here

LOL what? In the post you linked, Momrangal shaded your biggest rock-solid townread that you vouched for (Bernie) and talked about how he's pushing you for a mislynch. This is one of the scummiest posts in the game. Edit: you talk about this later in 1450 but I still don't follow. "Gross" is a bizarre way to describe a push on you that you don't find scummy. I'm gonna need you to explain exactly what these tells are because you're holding onto these "secret tells" that Bernie is town and that doesn't help read you at all.

1371 by Nauci lines up with my own reads well enough that I think it's more likely to be town.

I think Bernie and Mom aren't s/s but maybe also not t/t so I need to reread there

Why can't they be town/town independent of your read on Momrangal? I'm always puzzled when someone claimes that two people are the same or different alignments. How can you make such a determination? The only thing you can really read into pre-flip is whether two people can be scum together, or not.

fake hammer tho

What town motive is there to call out a fake-hammer? I can think of the obvious scum motive; that you don't want your Gamma mislynch slipping away because Gamma reacts in a towny way when he thinks he's been hammered.

@Skitter, I'll summarize thoughts on the Gamma lynch here since you asked. It didn't change my reads much. I still find Irrelephant/TheWorst scummy and am thinking Momrangal is potentially a scum wagon that didn't go through. But that's me saying that nothing rules out this existing scumread as opposed to developing a new one. I think Not_Mafia's and Gustavo's vote are both pretty bad but Gustavo's isn't bad enough to outweigh my stungun townread and Not_Mafia/Invisibility is in a null spot for me. I wish Errantparabola was made to take a stance and put a vote down.

Finished reading until page 65 (end of D1). I'm going to take a short break and then read D2.

gamestate is highly highly consistent with Nauci and skitter being scum with Mom. in retrospect vesides recognising that I shouldn't be lynched she hasn't done a lot. I think I was being stupid yday.

Can you go more into your theory on Nauci/Momrangal? Also, why does skitter spend the end of D1 trying to lynch Momrangal if they are scum together?

Irrelephant is switching his votes around a lot to mostly scumread players. He votes Momrangal, then Not_Mafia, then skitter, then TheWorst, then Momrangal again, then Keyser. I'm conflicted on what this means. His votes don't really make sense as it's hard to believe that he's changing his mind so often on people who clearly can't be scum together and is helping a lot of wagons form. On the other hand, I feel like scum would not want to change their votes so often. Something I'll look into when I read his town and scum games.

Current reads:

skitter30
Shoshin
Bernie Sanders
Gustavo

Nauci
Keyser Soze

Not_Mafia

the worst
Errantparabola
Irrelephant11
Momrangal

@skitter, I'm going to look back to see where TheWorst pushed you as scum. His reads are pretty unbelievable (you, Nauci, Momrangal scum together). I'm guessing that as town, he's a perceptive enough player to know that it's an unlikely team. How likely is he to push difficult lynches as scum? Do you have experience with his scumgame?

The thing that makes me paranoid about the gamestate is that the people I find scummy (like Errant, TW) are okay with a Momrangal wagon and Irrelephant is okay with both. Gamestate-wise, Momra/TW are the two wagons likely to go through so I'm no longer considering them to be partners. One could be scum but not both. I really want to re-evaluate the people outside my strongest townpile but who are not actively in my scumpile which is Nauci/Keyser/Not_Mafia.

It might actually be a good idea for TheWorst/Momrangal to claim. If we're going to wait all the way until intent is given, we're probably going to scramble towards deadline and it seems pretty obvious that those are our likely options.

@Rask, I'm going to do an ISO of both Momrangal and TheWorst before putting down a vote but I'm actually leaning towards TheWorst at this point. Is there anything meta-wise I should know that makes him less likely to be scum? You noted yourself that his view on the gamestate makes no sense at all and his switch to Momrangal saying that he's being wagoned as a counter to that and pushing Nauci/Skitter/Momrangal as the team is really kind of a stretch. I could see Momrangal townreading him for silly reasons but the way he latched onto that and townread her back is I think even worse. Basically, Momrangal called you scummy for pushing him and his response was that her view of the gamestate is totally relatable or something of that sort which makes no sense at all.

This kinda reminds of you pushing GM in our last game and not wanting to lynch Sotty7 because a GM scumflip would clear you whereas a Sotty7 scumflip would still keep pressure on you. I hope that's not your motivation because I don't think either of Momrangal/TheWorst flipping either alignment is going change my read on you. So, I just want to work with your straightforward thoughts on them.

Before you go who’s your gut scumlist

You, TheWorst, and ErrantP are the ones I find scummiest. I wanted to cross-check interactions with Momrangal based on flip but I was sick during the night phase so that didn't pan out so I'm going to get to it tonight and tomorrow.

tl;dr THERES A LOT

BV has very much to say about Mom, going so far as to make "Why did you say that about Mom?" a hallmark of his catchup process. He responds to probably more than a third of Mom's posts, critiquing them individually and never having anything positive to say. Maybe it's just me, but right off the bat BV seems informed about Mom's red alignment, aware Mom is a likely lynch for D2, and doing everything possible to stay away.

But that's not all!

Blackvoid was the one to suggest both Mom/the worst claim, which given town!the worst sounds like a "hey any chance you're a juicier nk target than Shoshin/how can our team avoid your power?"

Finally, though Blackvoid ostensibly has Mom as her scummiest read, followed by errantparabola, then me, then tw, he says this in his last post of D2: "@Rask, I'm going to do an ISO of both Momrangal and TheWorst before putting down a vote but I'm actually leaning towards TheWorst at this point. Is there anything meta-wise I should know that makes him less likely to be scum?"

I'm kinda hoping it's just the worst and Not_Mafia because that's much easier to make happen but I think there should be a lot more eyes on this slot

I’ve been reading BV’s 10-post-catch-up... and it does feel like he comes into the game knowing that mom/the worst are scum.

I agree with that “Why did you say that about Mom?" remark. He questioned anyone defending Mom or The Worst. BV also provided very clear and accurate explanations of how TW/mom’s interactions were scum/scum interactions.

So are we saying BV replaces into this game to heavy bus TW/mom? (And to link as many townies to them as possible [i.e you])...?


I’m gonna read on... past his catchup now.

[Keyser Söze]

The thing that makes me paranoid about the gamestate is that the people I find scummy (like Errant, TW) are okay with a Momrangal wagon and Irrelephant is okay with both. Gamestate-wise, Momra/TW are the two wagons likely to go through so

I'm no longer considering them to be partners

. One could be scum but not both. I really want to re-evaluate the people outside my strongest townpile but who are not actively in my scumpile which is Nauci/Keyser/Not_Mafia.

Would wagonomics really dispel all of BV’s scum reads/theories/understanding of TW-Mom associations???
Think BV turned too easily away from TW-Mom here. They were both scummy slots.. why can’t they both be scum in isolation?

(I believe this point may have already been highlighted...)

[Keyser Söze]

@ErrantP, okay let's "connect." I agree that skitter30, Bernie, Gustavo are town although Gustavo for different reasons than you so we're actually on the same page here. But let's talk about your second tier townreads. All of the reasons you posted for them are pretty vague and stuff that could easily come from either alignment that you just seem to be choosing to interpret as town.

Nauci is town for early game reasons and your intuition. Can you explain that some more?

Irrelephant is town to you because he said he was sheeping Bernie on Momrangal. I can understand the argument of "why would scum say they are sheeping when they would want cred for a bus?" But it's not really a strong enough argument to outweigh an existing scumread. I could see scum using that as a reason to hop off because it's a weak reason to begin with. But I'll think this through more when I analyze him in depth.

Keyser-Soze - holding onto an early game townread. A lot has happened since early game though. I'd like to see you comment on what you think of his recent posts. Have they made you doubt that townread or mostly re-inforced them? It would be really helpful if you can get into some specifics because it's a lot easier for me to read people when they give concrete reasons rather than be really vague.

I feel like you and Nauci are looking for a reason to townread Irrelephant rather than analyze his posts and objectively reach a conclusion.

I like this post from BV though... it made me see Errant’s t/reads as insincere/unsupported.

[Keyser Söze]

I'm reading Momrangal's ISO right now so I'll post comments on interactions as I read them.

On TheWorst, I actually think there are some things that point away from him being scum. Like the last sentence of 1297. It seems like Momra caught a crumb from TheWorst and used that as a reason to divert away from him knowing he has a claim up his sleeve to prevent his mislynch. 794 on Bernie - feels like she's trying to set up Bernie for a TheWorst townflip. 2261 is another post where Momra picks up on TheWorst's soft claim and it feels genuine enough as not a scum-scum interaction.

I think the vote on Nauci in 799 is pretty odd. I don't know what it says about Nauci's alignment but I'm going to read the context.

I also want to point out that Momra reluctantly backed off of her Invisibility push after Shoshin pushed her hard on it suggests that Not_Mafia is town.

BV, like me, was willing to present the possibility that TW was town...
I think it’s very town-ish for a player to do a ‘what if?’ U-Turn, when that player in question was your strongest s/read or likeliest player to be lynched
[anti distancing associations]

[Keyser Söze]

FTR i’d prefer an Errant flip over a BV flip right now...
Reading on.

[Keyser Söze]

If me, skitter, Bernie, and Gustavo can all trust each other, the odds of this game being a town win go way up.

I actually like the sheer audacity / confidence shown here, which i’d usually lean town.

3. Can you quote where exactly either Errant or TheWorst said that TheWorst had a result on me?

This ignorance/derp moment actually feels legit. Surely scum-BV would have been up to date with TW’s scum gambit to fake a guilty on his partner... or at least come prepared to fake some theatre?

[Keyser Söze]

I really can't see either errant or gustavo being scum. Gustavo's whole "I'm voting Shoshin and my mind isn't being changed or it'll get toxic" attitude is a bit too far to go as scum. He does switch to Gamma but he backs it up with the accusation that Gamma wasn't voting. Since he used the same argument against me, I believe that he truly believes it.

Why is scum-BV closing down avenues on Errant and Gustavo on D4? BV is automatically placing himself in the PoE, banking everything on N_M flipping red.

[Keyser Söze]

FTR i’d prefer an Errant flip over a BV flip right now...
Reading on.

But for lylo it makes more sense than vote me or bv. Trying to decide in lylo if I was shot or he was BP is probably a bad idea

Can’t 1sbp and you exist in the same set-up?

[Keyser Söze]

Now reading stungun0404/Gustavo - a slot who in my head, I've admittedly t/read since D1 (and done nothing with the slot since), despite Gustavo's aggressive entrance (which I viewed as a townie-caught-in-confirm-bias).

[Keyser Söze]

Can people show me why Errant is town outside the neighborizer claim.

the neighborizer claim + outing tw + tw interactions when tw fake-claimed all feel super town to me

nothing earlier than that really felt town

Factor in the knowledge that we know scum had day chat and a night phase to plan this a potential fake claim gambit... does this effect how you see Errant's interactions/reactions?


Now, compare that to BV's D4 interaction/reaction when tw fake-claimed...
- BV said he didn't even know TW had investigated him...

why is he playing ignorant?

- BV even presenting the possibility of town-TW via his claim...

why is scum-BV doing this? the angry mob want TW's blood.

- BV was so slow getting a vote down on TW...

BV gets zero town-cred for that late hammer.

I really

don't think scum-BV played this fake-claim that optimally for himself

. Whereas Errant... I've re-read that whole day, and kinda done a U-turn to believe it all as one big theatrical stunt.

[Keyser Söze]

Let me ask you this. What combo would you rather have in lylo

Me/errant
Bv/errant
Me/bv

Probably you and BV right now.

I'm open/willing to be persuaded. I want to at least t/read you or Skitter first (tried to reset my reads for D5).

[Keyser Söze]

I was hoping my paranoia of BV would grow today, but actually feeling cooler on that slot now :S

I feel his catch up is the most suspicious part of his ISO... it did seem like he was speaking from a position and to other players, knowing that mom/TW was scum. But as BV began to post in real time/defend himself/express changing reads that I can view him as a townie.

[Keyser Söze]

Really? Interesting

I'd vote for BV today,

only if

I maintain a renewed solid town read of both you and skitter.

[Keyser Söze]

Gustavo, read through Errant today and give me your thorough thoughts. I don’t want to see you building a case on him tomorrow instead of today.

[Keyser Söze]

Yeah we have time to wait.

Yes, I’d like to hear why you think BV is scum versus why you think Errant is scum (presuming you are happy with your skitter t/read)

[Keyser Söze]

Skitter is still lynchable.
Share your scum read of skitter in full .

Only me and Irrelephant11 are not on the table for today /tomorrow.

[Keyser Söze]

Is BV still your #1 option. Irrelephant11?
I’ve got cold feet there now :/

Tell me if anything I wrote about his posts makes sense

[Keyser Söze]

eh, i want a clear majority on a player whose not given much substantial content (as in townreads and such), so i’m absolutely not passing up this opportunity.

VOTE: Momrangal

Momrangal is now at L-3

, so this slot could only probably fit one more vote for our purposes as of right now, but absolutely no more than that.

Why does scum-stungun broadcast this to everyone?

1) that his vote is a mere pressure vote on a slot he is null reading
2) that he is stressing the fact that the mom wagon shouldn’t go beyond L-3

[not the conventional way you distance from your scum partner...]

[Keyser Söze]

uh pardon me since when do you know me well enough that you can tell what's fake from me? o.0

Even this way of defending himself is bullshit. I call something fake, and his response is, "you don't know me well enough to know it's fake." He's not even denying that it's fake... instead he just wants to discredit me...

I don’t even know how you reached that conclusion...

What's your confusion?

It’s like a huge misrep on your part. The worst’s question was valid. He doesn’t have to deny that it was fake. You have the burden of proof to prove it was fake. Innocent until proven guilty

VOTE: shoshin

He’s not a team player. I ask him a few questions and he flails and votes me. By his own definition of what scum is, he’s guilty of being scum.

I’ll see y’all day 2.

does this not strike you as a situation scum!Shoshin would try to avoid being in though?

That’s wifom my friend. I don’t have time to play the wifom game. His iso reeks, his vote on nauci was opportunistic and he refused to explain why, he had doubt yet he stayed on.

To me that’s scum. I’ll log off and do the rest of my reading and take notes on my own time but for now I have no interest in voting nauci. Have no interest in voting you. I’ll develop more reads later.

I’m just here to deny I misrepped shoshin. I find it kind of hypocritical since he misrepped the worst.

I’d also like to say my scum game is nothing like my play so far this game and in both of those games he linked, sho did provide some sort of explanation for his vote or reads.

Look at Gustavo’s entrance:

- defends TW (buddy-esque)
- aggressively attacks Shoshin in a tunnel
- cocky “see y’all day 2”
- self meta clears himself


Yep, it’s behaviour we ideally wouldn’t like to see but I’m shamefully t/leaning his entrance.

[Keyser Söze]

Interesting find @skitter

[Keyser Söze]

Gustavos case and push on shos was ugly to witness and read

[Keyser Söze]

Well I can’t help but be aggressive. That’s how I play

Indeed. I’ve read up to the start on D2 now... Gustavo was very aggressive AND made many very wrong stances:

- TW being town
- Shos bring scum
- Gamma being scum
- the EOD1 counter wagons being suspicious
- the votes on mom being suspicious
- me being LAMIST and scum


He butchers through every stance he expresses with a machete and hammer.

Scum-Gustavo has no regard for town-cred or self-appearance (forcing me to lean away from scum to town-Gustavo)


Show me a scum game Gustavo has been guilty of getting his hands so bloody with his aggressive playstyle and sub optimal decisions.

[Keyser Söze]

Spoiler: Gustavo posts

VOTE: Stungun

No reason for this. Stun had just voted nauci and given how hard nauci has been defending sho, I could easily see them scum together and this was a chainsaw vote. It makes sense sho didn’t want to explain it.

VOTE: Nauci

This vote is weird. No reason for it and math just voted there.

VOTE: Gustavo

Voted me because I was pressuring her. Basically omgus

VOTE: Gustavo

Unvotes me after I proved she misrepped me (blatantly lied imo)

VOTE: Gamma

No reason....

So far this game is nothing like her town game she tried to say was similar to the one we played.

VOTE: Key

No reasons...

VOTE: Gustavo

Voted me because I voted the same person as she did.

What’s the difference? I gave reasons for my vote. She didn’t.

There is zero scum hunting in her votes. There is zero transparency, there is zero signs of teamwork.

I’m done discussing it anymore. She’s fucking scum or a really really terrible town player and her play this game is drastically different than the town game I played with her.

VOTE: shos

Peace out.

Either i’m very out of touch or youre greatly exaggerating how often that sort of thing happens? If i caught stungun’s interaction i’d have probably called it scummy too

Almost every action in the game has a towny and scummy interpretation it just so happens that the TvS interpretation for that specific one happens to be a very plausible one

FTR stun never voted sho, so she’s definitely misrepping yet again.

Sho voted me twice, twice I make great posts and she backs off.

Shos is scum. You should vote her. Everyone should.
Nauci is good also. There is no crumb in her posts like she said.

They are probably a pair

Serious vote though, VOTE: Gamma Emerald for 100% 4/4 fluff posting

Terrible. Not a good reason for a serious vote.

VOTE: The Worst

I honestly couldn't decide where to throw my vote but then I read this

hey now you don't tell me what to do!

Also this only brings you to -2

1. Opportunistic as hell
2. Terrible reason to vote somebody

VOTE: Irrelephant11

Serious vote.

Don’t have time to read the reasons but Irrelephant11 was already voting nauci.

VOTE: not_mafia

Policy lynch vote? Really?

I'll vote with 2 of my town reads while I wait VOTE: momrangal

Late day 1 this is not acceptable

Let's start with the fact that VOTE: Mathdino you jerk come in here and actually post the catch up you promised several times

Clearly math stopped playing this game. A better vote could have been placed.

Here seems decent while I still don't have time to catch up

VOTE: the worst

Yet another terrible vote.

Not a single protown vote all game imo

Again, I’m seeing unreasonable/bullish/stubborn

townie

, indications of confirmation bias (inc. linking two townies as a scum team).

Calling Nauci’s vote on TW as “opportunistic” and “terrible”... [feeling aggressive anti-distancing].

[Keyser Söze]

Will read Errant’s post in detail later.

Still reading Gustavo’s ISO (over 300 posts...)

[Keyser Söze]

Spoiler: more Gustavo posts

Ill only vote you/skittle/elephant today.

Sorry I left off nauci.

More reasons to dislike the mom wagon. I don’t even have a read on mom but like the reasons just suck

I regret replacing into this game now. None of my scum reads are ever going to get lynched and my cases get ignored.

UNVOTE:

This game is so bizarre. It’s day 2 and we’ve only had one real wagon. No real attempt at a counter wagon at all.

Not that my opinions matter to anyone but my gut says mom flips town. The reasons are hella weak and the lack of a counter speaks volumes.

@shos- if you are town I’m really sorry you had a bad game. @everyone else, I’m really sorry for the hardcore tunneling but I just can’t see town motivation in shos actions. This is the last time I type her name for the rest of my this game and probably my life so you won’t have to worry about any more posts from me about her. I’m just going to pretend she doesn’t exists.

If I was a doctor who protected somebody and there wasn’t a Nk, I certainly would never vote them or worry that they voted the same person as me.

But hey I’m different I guess

- expresses scum reads and players he would vote (likely all townies, does not name Mom/TW)
- actively opposes the Mom wagon/reasons
- expresses potential town frustration
- rational bewilderment re: Shos’ vote

[Keyser Söze]

VOTE: gustavo

Clearly I’m getting lynched today so let’s stop wasting time.

If you’re town, unvote bro.

[Keyser Söze]

It looks like I’m t/reading your ‘bad’/‘aggressive’/‘suboptimal’ behaviour via WIFOM. I always find it really hard to s/read your type of playstyle (the only time I’ve seen someone flip scum after being so ‘passionate’ and ‘aggressive’ was third party scum, not group scum).

I’m gonna finish off reading your last 100 posts, then read through Skitter.

[Keyser Söze]

Quick post before leaving for work.

@Keyser, some of the things you townread Gustavo for are things he can do as scum. Specifically, he's the kind of scum player that plays by deluding themselves into thinking that they are town so can have genuine-sounding, stubborn reactions. Here's an ISO of a recent scumgame.

Ok, reading through his posts in that game does now admittedly make me want to re-evaluate Gustavo here...

[Keyser Söze]

and if it's Gustavo idk if I trust Keyser to figure that out atm (sorry Keyser but you keep saying "this thing Gustavo did is scummy so he must be town" - your confbias is showing

Fair play mate, if he's scum, he's fooled me

[Keyser Söze]

I’ll let Keyser get his final thoughts in and then we can end the day

Yes, I want to read through Skitter first.

[Keyser Söze]

I am here guys (not avoiding) - just reading and digesting. We have the time.

[Keyser Söze]

@Gustavo - everytime

you think

a player is lying about you, do you think they’re scum?

[Keyser Söze]

When I thought Shos/Irrelephant11 was being untruthful about me I didn’t scum read them for it.
Yes, I got overly emotional, frustrated and aggressive but I stayed rational.


My town read on you is based on WIFOM.

But there is that paranoia now building in my head chipping away at that town read:

- your righteous indignation and aggression looks and feels real (is that truly indicative of your alignment?), but you are always coming out the other end of that anger with a scum read directed at that player. I’m thinking: are those ‘supposed lies’ giving you the ammunition to perform these angry tirades..? Townies can lie. Townies can be stubborn and maintain incorrect stances about you.

Why don’t you show any balance or signs of trying to measure out someone’s perspective?

[Keyser Söze]

hot take: scum is among bernie, nsg, nauci, momrangal, and the worst

Btw I don't think duckling and mom are scum together

TW's and Mom's partner would not say this.
TW's and Mom's partner would not say this.
TW's and Mom's partner would not say this.
TW's and Mom's partner would not say this.
TW's and Mom's partner would not say this.
TW's and Mom's partner would not say this.
TW's and Mom's partner would not say this.
TW's and Mom's partner

would

say this!
Nope, TW's and Mom's partner would not say this.

[Keyser Söze]

Before skitter loses her town read of TW towards the end of D1, skitter repeats repeats underlines underlines emphasizes emphasizes that TW and mom can't be scum partners:

Btw I don't think duckling and mom are scum together

i think mom may be wk'ing a tw mislynch

i mean i think she may be scum defending town!tw for the mislynch in the hopes of gaining towncred

i'm pretty confident that the two of them are not s/s tho; i'd be quite surprised if they were because the timing of their votes on you and tw's vote on mom doesn't feel like partners

i feel like her defense of tw may have been a white-knight; it doesn't really feel sincere to me; it feels kinda self-righteous.

No longer townreading worst.

why?

WIFOM says: scum-skitter wouldn't dare try to pump scum propaganda into our minds this hard, with the likely chance of an angry town backlash.

Agree/disagree?

[Keyser Söze]

Where are you at with your reads?

Today, I'd probably vote Errant or Gustavo (very reluctantly).


Reading skitter's last 100 posts now...

[Keyser Söze]

TW's and Mom's partner would not say this.

Have you never heard of distancing?

'anti-association-type distancing'? If so, Skitter's ISO is infested with distancing