Mini 1894: DBZ Abridged Mafia - Arrival To Namek (Game Over)

[Imperium]

Nacho and Tammy can you please be town thanks.

We are; you're welcome!

[Imperium]

Socrates, it is a sequel game and the previous one isn't required reading.

Vote: MariaR

[Imperium]

If I wanted to make a serious vote then I'd vote Desperado but I don't want to believe it's​ true quite yet

[Imperium]

Socrates, it is a sequel game and the previous one isn't required reading.

Vote: MariaR

However if you want to revel in our awesomeness then you should read it

[Imperium]

I feel good about Almost's approach to Tywin, although I can't say I agree with it. Will make a full response to it after Tywin responds.

[Imperium]

Socrates, it is a sequel game and the previous one isn't required reading.

Vote: MariaR

I was asking in the sense of whether the mechanics are repeated and if there is insight to be gained about how to handle said mechanics.

Oh no, there were no dragon balls. Everything was pretty straight forward, but did follow flavor pretty well. (This head knows nothing about the flavor, but the last game flavor was able to semi-confirm people. I don't expect it to be that easy this time around.)

[Imperium]

Oh my gods I'm a dope. I thought nacho made a joke vote on Maria because she was in the last game and not this one no that kuribo got confused and added her to the vote count because of the vote. Nacho had to tell me where she was three times on the player list for me to see it.

Thought evetyone should revel in my idiocy :p

[Imperium]

I don't agree with Almost's approach, though. The mechanic is swingy (and a successful use probably benefits scum more than town and it seems easier for scum to utilize the mechanic than town), but I expect town will have roles that bolster its chances (while all scum will have is natural advantages).

[Imperium]

I know that our mod is kuroi apparently my phone just likes kuribo better

[Imperium]

Hi!

[Imperium]

Attempting to keep them safe/pass them around frequently also means they're more likely to end up in scum hands, and once scum touches them, they keep them.

We will also constantly worry about whether scum is close to having all the dragon balls and are close to resurrecting a dead brother or sister; activating them is the only way to kill the threat completely.

[Imperium]

I feel good about Almost's approach to Tywin, although I can't say I agree with it. Will make a full response to it after Tywin responds.

You agree with it, but don't agree with it? What does that even mean, and why do you need my response to respond to it at all? Are you hoping for a quick wagon on me, and you want to help him shade me with some very bad reasoning? Or what's the deal? Either you agree with him or not, and if not, why would you need my response to address him? Are you hoping to sheep him for a quicklynch in RVS?

Your jumpiness does not do your namesake justice. I expected a calmer, cooler approach than the jumpy. (This is not an insult by the way this head is a little jumpy too.)

You are misreading my other head's point. Nacho likes Almost's approach as in thinks she's probably town from it, but does not agree with her conclusion. It's entirely possible to like what someone's approach says about them but not like their conclusion or argument. That's the case here as far as I know Nacho also has a leaning town read on you.

Neither of us is in the habit of defending people before they have the chance to defend or explain themselves. Why do you think we should have?

[Imperium]

*his sorry

[Imperium]

Will respond when not on my phone walking out the door, but Tywin are you an alt or are you as new as your start date says?

[Imperium]

@Kuroi: Can the transfer of balls be roleblocked?

[Imperium]

If I do it in public, scum will kill me to get what I have. If I do it in secrecy it reduces the chance of me getting NK'd but the Town will not know whom to pass the balls to in order to get them all in one place.

You're right that coordination will be more difficult for town than scum.

[Imperium]

However, optimal strategy (whether you're playing offense or defense) is to keep quiet and get as many balls into town hands as possible, meaning early approach will be the same regardless of what we do. Later in the game, stakes will be higher (if we claim dragonballs, we can guarantee that scum don't yet have all the balls while if we don't we can't, and run the risk of scum surprise endgaming us).

[Imperium]

VOTE: ABR

Vote: Not Chara

Why ABR?

[Imperium]

Show of hands, who thinks inconsistency is a

A) scumtell
B) towntell
C) NAI

I wanna make sure where I wanna vote is (in)consistent with everyone's mentality here.

Why do you need a public poll before you place an early vote?

[Imperium]

I like to play defense. I'd root for Italy over Germany (soccer) any day of the week. Don't concede and thus you cannot lose is my motto.

A strong defense makes scoring less urgent but that doesn't mean that scoring is no longer a necessity

[Imperium]

Will respond when not on my phone walking out the door, but Tywin are you an alt or are you as new as your start date says?

I will still respond when I'm not out on phone, but I no longer care about this question as I have a decent enough meaning town read that it doesn't matter.

[Imperium]

You agree with it, but don't agree with it? What does that even mean, and why do you need my response to respond to it at all? Are you hoping for a quick wagon on me, and you want to help him shade me with some very bad reasoning?

I think that his logic was shaky (a vast majority of scumteams wouldn't go "Almost caught me for my partners not voting me last game so vote me in RVS and that totally won't be a problem"), but I thought that his overall approach looked genuine. Desperado correctly pointed out that his thought process was impressively fleshed out for scum in a very early stage of the game, and his engagement with you seemed like he was genuinely trying to read you.

I didn't want to jump in the middle of his reasoning because even though I didn't agree with him, me disagreeing didn't make his argument useless (and occasionally strength of an argument isn't the most important thing in early game).

Does this make sense? I'm a bit distracted at the moment so chances are high I didn't say quite what I wanted to say.

[Imperium]

Therefore, optimal strategy dictates that we should play defense, by only passing at Night if we have more than 1 ball, and not passing in all other circumstances

My impression is that you've proved that using common sense and holding onto balls when you don't have a bunch is smarter than passing randomly, but not that defense is better than offense.

[Imperium]

Hey guys I'm at the start of page 5 stop talking on the dragon balls the more we keep doing it the less we focus on the game

If people talk about dragonballs and don't do any scumhunting then call them out on an individual level; I don't think talking about them hurts the town and I do think a mechanic that can effectively give scum an extra member if we mess up should be discussed.

[Imperium]

Were not going to lynch anyone this early anyway and discussing a unique mechanic this early is pretty standard and can be useful

[Imperium]

Hey guys I'm at the start of page 5 stop talking on the dragon balls the more we keep doing it the less we focus on the game

If people talk about dragonballs and don't do any scumhunting then call them out on an individual level; I don't think talking about them hurts the town and I do think a mechanic that can effectively give scum an extra member if we mess up should be discussed.

Talking about it for 5 pages in a row got us 0 input what so ever when we can just ohh idk L Y N C H S C U M I N S T E A D ?

Like the only thing I think should be questions is everyone agrees on someone hammering like a weak role or something so if mafia kills that person for dragon balls we don't lose THAT much

If you're worried about scumhunting, why aren't you doing it?

We've offered decent townreads on Almost and Tywin, we're pressing a push on Not Chara specifically, I started out the game scumreading Desperado then backed off, I have various feelings on Vifam, Socrates.

Meanwhile, you've complained about us distracting from scumhunting.

[Imperium]

I thought Desperado's entry was meh, but I liked his observation on most (it's one he probably makes regardless of alignment but it shows he's engaged, hence small lean), I've been mostly unimpressed by Vifam so far although not knowing what the dragonballs do seem odd for scum at this point, I've liked most of Socrates's contributions so far.

[Imperium]

Nacho I am disconcerted that your two townreads are the two players I like least thus far.

I for one am relieved; means I'm on the right track!

[Imperium]

Do Nacho and Tammy like me?

As a person? Absolutely!
In this game? No idea.

[Imperium]

Would you like me to pull fake reads out of my ass and push them cause I'll happily do it I don't have any tr's or sr's atm otherwise I would

You don't have any leans, inklings, observations that might not be alignment indicative but still stood out to you, anything?

[Imperium]

Would you like me to pull fake reads out of my ass and push them cause I'll happily do it I don't have any tr's or sr's atm otherwise I would

You don't have any leans, inklings, observations that might not be alignment indicative but still stood out to you, anything?

Of course I have leans and doubts but they're only little and hard to explain I want to out a read when I can give you a good 2 sentences on why I tr or sr _____

I thought you didn't explain your reads? Am I thinking of someone else?

[Imperium]

He's a reviewer of the game.

[Imperium]

Nacho I am disconcerted that your two townreads are the two players I like least thus far.

If you'd like to talk about this I'm more than happy to jam with my beautiful boy! Was kind of hoping you'd move to chatting mode after I put you down

[Imperium]

Imperium, how do you feel about Almost popping up to say some stuff to Vifram on the very page people were talking about wagoning him without any acknowledgement ? Unless I missed a post.

I'm not sure what you're saying; the only post made towards Vifam that I think might be significant is the one where he kind of attacked Vifam for not knowing things but kind of didn't, but him backing off pretty much immediately makes me doubt he was trying to encourage a quickwagon. What were your thoughts?

[Imperium]

3 townies alive, 2 scum alive. Scum resurrect a member, scum win the game.

[Imperium]

I feel good about Almost's approach to Tywin, although I can't say I agree with it. Will make a full response to it after Tywin responds.

You agree with it, but don't agree with it? What does that even mean, and why do you need my response to respond to it at all? Are you hoping for a quick wagon on me, and you want to help him shade me with some very bad reasoning? Or what's the deal? Either you agree with him or not, and if not, why would you need my response to address him? Are you hoping to sheep him for a quicklynch in RVS?

Your jumpiness does not do your namesake justice. I expected a calmer, cooler approach than the jumpy. (This is not an insult by the way this head is a little jumpy too.)

You are misreading my other head's point. Nacho likes Almost's approach as in thinks she's probably town from it, but does not agree with her conclusion. It's entirely possible to like what someone's approach says about them but not like their conclusion or argument. That's the case here as far as I know Nacho also has a leaning town read on you.

Neither of us is in the habit of defending people before they have the chance to defend or explain themselves. Why do you think we should have?

I'm not jumpy. Jumpy would be me actually worried about a wagon right now. I'm just questioning what you said, because it looks contradictory as well as opportunistic, seeing as I lead the vote count currently. Why are you calling me jumpy for questioning you? That's not how this works. You'd not know if I was jumpy or not based on the post, but it should show me trying to early sort you, since you've made a stance, although it's very 'on the fence' in regards to what you said. From my perspective, 'if' you are scum, you're putting feelers out to see if you can get away with voting me, but it's too early for you to fully commit, so you gave a contradictory statement to possibly lean either way depending on future events. It's not out of the question to think scum would say what you did in hopes others sheep the wagon and you help finish off the lynch. Then again, it could mean absolutely nothing too, but j don't know without asking.

I do agree with your sentiments on defending others this early though. So touché

Part of the jumpy accusation was me teasing you a bit because of your name. You happened to have named yourself after a character from one of my favorite series. (I started playing mafia on a website dedicated to that series.) Because I'm very familiar with and have discussed the nature of the characters in that series, I projected that type of character onto you, and you don't play like Tywin Lannister at all.

The jumpiness came from the rapid fire way you shot off a series of questions concerning our intentions to wagon or sheep a wagon on you, especially when you misunderstood the statement made.

If that was our intent, we'd have voted you. If we even sort of believed in the tell almost had and thought it was worth it to push you on we'd have voted you, but that wasn't our intent.

We both liked almost's push on you, but we did not agree with it. We liked what it said about almost; his scumhunting looked true and not contrived. We got an early town read on almost from that questioning of you.

We did not agree with it though. We did not agree with what his conclusion about you was. And at the time, Nacho was leaning town on you.

Also the reason why I asked if you were an alt was because I thought your response to us and me in this exchange looked really super town if you were new. As an alt with experience it read neutral to me. Just wanted to let you know why I asked that question as sometimes people get really insulted if you ask if they're new.

~~~

And I will finally start actually reading the game and not barely skimming now! I don't have much time so I don't imagine I'll get through the entire thing tonight, but I have free time tomorrow and will get completely caught up if I don't tonight.

[Imperium]

Imperium: i'd like to know about your push. you mention you have one, but haven't discussed me or spoken to me beyond the vote and then mentioning you have the push.

I was voting you because your opening was devoid of anything that even moderately resembled scumhunting; any conclusions you drew on the mechanics were safe and boring.

i find mechanics discussion largely NAI. in games with nonstandard public mechanics, there are always going to be disagreements and sifting through them for alignment information is usually fruitless and just leads to pointless fights. better to examine how players react to the disagreements and deal with them.

There are two things that are alignment indicative that come out of mechanics discussions.
First of all, some people stick their necks out when arguing setup; they argue against conventional wisdom and strongly, which in turn gets them heat. I tend to view people who stick their necks out naturally to stand up for something they believe in to be town; when scum are willing to take significant risks like that, usually it's to protect a scumpartner or lynch a townie as opposed to establish a mechanics point.
Second of all, I think that scum feel safe arguing what's right and leaving it at that, which is remarkably similar to your opening.

i'm townreading the intent of 121, but i dislike that Socrates's push on me so far is based on this tell that they've said twice isn't complete because i haven't scumread anyone for the dragonballs, just given my opinion.
for one, zefiend has come to exactly the same conclusion, and Socrates hasn't mentioned it. they've caught scum this way before, but 2/3 players with the same opinion haven't even been spoken to. if there was real concern, why isn't the same care being taken? Socrates only mentions Almost after he brings up this exact problem.
and reading 121 again, there's the main issue. Almost is fine because Socrate's agrees that Almost's reasoning is towny. therefore, the mechanics tell isn't that important. zefiend gets a side-eye for stalling in 217, but no mention of the mechanics tell. the reply to Almost sounds like a retroactive excuse.
so in the end it just looks like my post caught Socrates's attention as something they could push safely, instead of the tell being the cause.

I don't like this post.
You're pushing Socrates because he's chosen one suspect to push out of three; seems like your main problem here is not that Socrates's thought process doesn't make sense and more that you're miffed he chose you out of a pool of three. I also don't understand why this is why you walk back on your townread on Socrates; I mean, minor kudos for walking back on it at all but your thought process just doesn't make sense here.

[Imperium]

almost - what is your read on notchara?

[Imperium]

Again, you SPECULATE on the REASON, then consider your speculation a FACT and build on it?

Why are you townreading Zefiend?

I am stalling to an extent, because with such a high-energy player list (imo), I would rather sit back and watch development for a while before jumping straight in. At the time, the balls were a major talking point. Since I like math, I felt like contributing some stats to back up several people's arguments.

I haven't really found much else to comment on, specifically. There's Almost handing out town reads like candy, which I'm not keen on, but don't find AI either. I have one townread based on a pretty secret tell, but I'm not sharing yet. If I had to guess one scum right now it'd be Vifam. It's just a vibe thing ATM, they're just acting differently than WWE Mafia.

I liked this post!
In particular, I liked the "I'm sitting back and watching things develop before jumping in" bit; the explanation of his process feels genuine, and, while I am generally of the opinion that sitting back is a pretty easy way to get left behind, I'm not sure it's an approach scum takes here.

All that means is its Lylo earlier than normal IF we don't manage to lynch any scum by then. If there are 5 players left and only one scum dead, then I'd already call it a loss. That would be terrible town play IMO. So again, I don't see any legitimate reason for scum to have the exact same wish as town. It helps only in that one specific scenerio, and if that scenerio happened, town were already losing. There's gotta be something else they have. Why are you assuming otherwise? You really think it's not possible that scum don't have seperate wishes than town that we don't know about?

No, I think it pretty clearly helps both alignments and thus am not sure what your argument is.

If we are on odds and scum get the dragonballs, town lose a mislynch.
If we are on evens and town get the dragonballs, town gains a mislynch.

Pretty equivalent, no? Living town is more useful than living scum, but town has to get onto evens in order to gain a mechanical advantage.

I assume that both sides have additional wishes but it's not because the dragonballs are useless to scum.

[Imperium]

Saying they get SR'd real hard looks LAMIST.

Liked the rest of the post, don't understand what you're saying with this point.
Saying that get scumread frequently is them trying too hard to pretend to be town...?

Anybody who gets off this wagon, now that it has consolidated, will be viewed with extreme suspicion after Clumsy flips.

This looks town!

Thoughts on Imperium?

You're clearly interested in talking about us; why not lead the discussion yourself? What makes you wary of us?

I do find your act of talking yourself from a townread into a scumread on me interesting. It's precisely one of those little things I myself like to do as scum precisely because I know it tends to draw townreads from other players, so whenever I see this kind of stuff I have to ask myself if it's theater. But that kind of sophisticated scumplay doesn't fit well with committing such a short-sided tell.

I find that town are more likely to make moves like that because they're less concerned with image; however, I don't think how it got from point A to point B makes any sort of sense at all and that's a fairly strong prerequisite for townreading that sort of thing.

[Imperium]

Strong Town lean for trying to figure me out and doing it in a sensible manner. They were wary and cautious while assessing my slot, and it gave me Town vibes. Nothing in their posts has pinged me so far, as I know that's what it would've looked like in our hydra PT had we been playing with it instead of 2 separate slots. In short, their approach and reactions all seem natural to me.

My assumption is that you're talking about Not Chara, in which case I'll need some elaboration on the read. Where has it been trying to figure you out this game? How would its approach differ if it were scum? What do you think about the recent points brought up against it?

[Imperium]

Strong Town lean for trying to figure me out and doing it in a sensible manner. They were wary and cautious while assessing my slot, and it gave me Town vibes. Nothing in their posts has pinged me so far, as I know that's what it would've looked like in our hydra PT had we been playing with it instead of 2 separate slots. In short, their approach and reactions all seem natural to me.

My assumption is that you're talking about Not Chara, in which case I'll need some elaboration on the read. Where has it been trying to figure you out this game? How would its approach differ if it were scum? What do you think about the recent points brought up against it?

The only place where it makes sense to say that they're townreading you for trying to figure out the game is the beginning of the game - why didn't you have them as town in your most recent readslist?

[Imperium]

early assessment of Almost here suggests he's leaning town. i like Desperado's assessment of that one Almost post coming from town (meaning i like Desperado), but Almost is a self-aware scum and is perfectly capable of forming such a thought. he remembers things and uses them, his alignment has little to do with it. that would be why Almost is only lean town. i certainly don't want him lynched, however. i haven't seen anything from him i don't like yet.

Why do you like desperado for liking almost's post as coming from town and ignoring that we had already discussed liking almost's approach there?

[Imperium]

MariaR reminds me of UncertainKitten. My intuition is that Scum!Maria would only condescend to me the way she did if she knew I was on the wrong trail, so I'd be surprised if she was scum WITH Not Chara.

I don't disagree with your intuition, but I'm not sure what you're talking about wrt the condescension itself.

[Imperium]

I was referring to an earlier town list that you gave that didn't include notchara. I thought that you had to be referring to the early game interaction as trying to sort you because that didn't look like it. I had Nacho ask the question for me because my internet is acting up, and I was referring to a post really early in the game, and he thought I meant later because he's more current than me.

Sorry for the confusion.

[Imperium]

Imperium, how do you feel about Almost popping up to say some stuff to Vifram on the very page people were talking about wagoning him without any acknowledgement ? Unless I missed a post.

I didn't think anything of it in that regards. Why was he supposed to mention it before talking to Vifam?

I thought the post to vifam was a bit weird, but there are several awkward posters this game and it reads like a rather awkward stern warning, which is whatever, but I don't know why he had to acknowledge others talking about him.

[Imperium]

Char gave me a Town "lean" not a Town "read". Why? Because they're wary of me appearing Town when I'm Scum having seen it first hand (not just as a separate slot, but as my own hydra partner). They went on to explain that I -according to them- have almost similar play as either alignment.

Scum!Chara would have probably just gave me a pass as a TR (i.e. tried to buddy/pocket me) rather than a Town lean with an explanation that almost negates it altogether.

There's also the fact that I was the first player they tried to figure out (along with Desperado, which they even read based on how they assessed my post, which also means they went on to ISO me first in a genuine attempt to figure me out, so their read on me had a genuine motivation to figure my alignment as early as possible.)

I'm sorry I'm expressing my thoughts in too many words, but I'm trying to express the exact feelings that lead me to TR NC.

I understand where you're coming from with this townread, mostly just disputing the strength of it at this point in time.

I think that it makes sense that Not Chara as town is more likely to slot you in as a weak townread as a strong one (for Not Chara would have a more cautious approach as town that it simply wouldn't be able to fake as scum). I think that it makes sense that Not Chara as town would attempt to read you first because it has familiarity with you.

I am not sure how much of this Not Chara would know to fake as scum, however. For example, I don't think it's a huge jump for Not Chara as scum to know that it shouldn't hard townread a strong scum player that they have experience with right out the gate, and I don't think it's a huge jump for them to work to approach you first over others since you two do have a hydra together. I do have concerns with how the Socrates read played out; I don't think that walking back on it when Not Chara did is natural, and I find the substance itself to be weak and more indicative of a scum mindset than a town one.

Did you have any opinions on it?

[Imperium]

Almost - Is your town read on zefiend because he made the proposition to pass the balls only if we have more than one?

[Imperium]

Okay so we got our role pms Tuesday morning the game opened early Tuesday afternoon. Unless scum have day talk, and all scum have shown up, hard town reading people for misunderstanding the mechanics can get us into trouble. I don't know if Kuroi is a fan of day talk, so if anybody has that knowledge that would save me some research. Also, I guess they almost have to have it in order to transfer balls during the day?

[Imperium]

Heading out. Will pick up from page 12 tomorrow and give my thoughts then.

[Imperium]

The last few pages suck. Let me get that out of the way. Nothing worthwhile has been said. It's all talk about motivations for TRs rather than finding scum. Imperium seems to be sorting players somewhat, but going in the wrong direction for it. Enough of why you TR someone. It's worthless. I personally don't care who TRs who. It just means they aren't in your lynch pool for whatever arbitrary reason. I also dislike motives and things being discussed, because all motives boil down to two things: town lynching scum and scum not getting lynched/mislynching town. It's pretty damn simple.

So since you're all here and ready to talk, let's talk. I'm about to go to bed, but when you all wake up, drink your morning coffee, and check the thread, here's what I personally wanna see: Scum reads/lynch pool and specific reasons as to why.

The rest boils down to fluff and makes people look like they're contributing/active while they say nothing. Imperium has done that to a T with their posts. It's all questioning TRs and learning motivation for them rather than saying 'I SR the following player(s) and here's why.'

So give that info and take a stance. Stop walking the fence and discussing everything except who to lynch. It's pinging me due to the constant fluff, and the only reason I'm saying it is A) because it may be your specific way to sort (although I find that it sidesteps the entire point to discuss TRs over SRs) and B) I want to get some meat and potatoes in this game. Currently, its some nouveau artisan food that's arranged all pretty, but it consists of a carrot, two peas, an eggsprout, and some chicken shavings. The game is starving for actual content.

Tl;dr: get to the point and give your SRs. Take a stance and say why. Not doing so is becoming scummy.

If this is to us you can take your condescending newb ass and shove it. We don't need advice on how to play this game from anyone, least of all you. We have a pretty damn strong town game and will solve the game our own way.

You should learn to understand different styles of play and recognize when town are trying to sort. You might learn something.

(Although the sheeer condescension you just displayed is more tywin-esque so good on you for that, but you don't see me criticizing your methods do you? No, good stand aside and watch how it's actually done.)

[Imperium]

like if i could only have one reason to vote abr it would be how quickly he went from pressure vote to narrative building, which is the only purpose that post served

ABR builds narratives far more frequently than the average player so while I don't disagree with your reasoning I think your conclusion is off.

[Imperium]

Talking with the Shaz head, I liked Socrates' case about Not Chara. Shaz head agrees, so we're going to follow there.

VOTE: Not Chara

What did you think of Not Chara's rebuttal?

[Imperium]

Enough of why you TR someone. It's worthless. I personally don't care who TRs who. It just means they aren't in your lynch pool for whatever arbitrary reason. I also dislike motives and things being discussed, because all motives boil down to two things: town lynching scum and scum not getting lynched/mislynching town. It's pretty damn simple.

Town play, in a tired, half-assed nutshell, is being transparent and determining motivation. I've never understood why some people insist on only scumhunting or only townhunting because you're only playing half of the game when you do so; finding town means narrowing down your scum pool, reducing scum mislynches, finding people to scumhunt with.

Motive is also remarkably more complicated than that; you've correctly noted our win conditions but the path to get there is different for ever player, hence different styles. In addition, not everything a player posts feeds into their wincondition; there are emotional responses and there are things people say regardless of alignment, etc. If you don't take what people are trying to do into account, how can you make the claim you understand them?

[Imperium]

useless/naked/sheep votes on the slot.

Could you call out these votes specifically?
I'd also like to hear you rephrase our suspicions on Not Chara, as well as Socrates; you note that our cases aren't legitimate, but there's no impetus for me to refine an approach until you show me it's broken.

[Imperium]

And I'm sorry for being rude in return, that wasn't nice if me. I'm just really hating mafia lately and that's part of the reason why. I don't understand why mafia can't be about scumhunting and trying to solve the game. Lately it seems it's ,ore about who can demean someone else, condescendingly tell people the way they solve the game is bad, harmful playstyles aside, and wanting people out of the game because their personalities get their personalities in a jimmy when they're not actuallly being beligerent or causing people harm. That's not even counting the antitown behavior that makes it harder to win a game lately.

If you want to excel at this game you're going to have to understand that people have different approaches. If you want to figure out our alignment you're going to have to read our posts and try to understand our reads and approach, anything else is just bluster that does not actually help solve the game.

[Imperium]

My personal experience with abr is that he is aggressive as town, not so much as scum. I do know he's capable of it, especially depending on his scum team. I agree with almost though that if he starts lurking or stops scumhunting that's problematic.

[Imperium]

alright, scratch what i said earlier.
i'm townreading the intent of 121, but i dislike that Socrates's push on me so far is based on this tell that they've said twice isn't complete because i haven't scumread anyone for the dragonballs, just given my opinion.
for one, zefiend has come to exactly the same conclusion, and Socrates hasn't mentioned it. they've caught scum this way before, but 2/3 players with the same opinion haven't even been spoken to. if there was real concern, why isn't the same care being taken? Socrates only mentions Almost after he brings up this exact problem.
and reading 121 again, there's the main issue. Almost is fine because Socrate's agrees that Almost's reasoning is towny. therefore, the mechanics tell isn't that important. zefiend gets a side-eye for stalling in 217, but no mention of the mechanics tell. the reply to Almost sounds like a retroactive excuse.
so in the end it just looks like my post caught Socrates's attention as something they could push safely, instead of the tell being the cause.

Why does something have to be complete for a push early game?

[Imperium]

3 townies alive, 2 scum alive. Scum resurrect a member, scum win the game.

All that means is its Lylo earlier than normal IF we don't manage to lynch any scum by then. If there are 5 players left and only one scum dead, then I'd already call it a loss. That would be terrible town play IMO. So again, I don't see any legitimate reason for scum to have the exact same wish as town. It helps only in that one specific scenerio, and if that scenerio happened, town were already losing. There's gotta be something else they have. Why are you assuming otherwise? You really think it's not possible that scum don't have seperate wishes than town that we don't know about?

Scum and some town could have other wishes. All we know is what we've been told is that the one wish common to all is resurrection.

If we haven't put thought into what scum have it's because we're town and don't know shit and it's not going to get anywhere. I don't really care what scum might have; I just care to keep them out of their hands.

[Imperium]

I really would like to see more tbh.
We have the Shaz head saying Zef is scum for hypocrisy but doesn't vote them (Meh scumtell at best).
Saying they get SR'd real hard looks LAMIST.
Shaz doesn't really comment on anything else that's going on in the gamestate.
Don't really get how they said Zef dropped a scumtell to Zef being town but ok.

I would really like Shaz to talk more about Maria.
Shaz can you talk more about Maria?

So I really don't have a good grasp on it? Like, I would sorta like to see them post more if anything. Does that make sense?

I think Shapiro was just answering the question z asked, not accusing them of hypocrisy?

[Imperium]

Yeaaaaaaaaah...
She's gonna post that way as either alignment.
VOTE: Clums

I don't get this vote. Do you expect clumsy to have meta knowledge of Maria? Why the vote there and why for that reason?

[Imperium]

@All: Thoughts on Imperium? Who all town/scum reads them?

I think they're pretty swell and obviously town. You wanna know how you can tell? I'm posting. It really is that easy.

If you wanna talk to us though, you can talk

[Imperium]

I actually like the "I always get scum read" thing from Shaziro.

[Imperium]

Almost - does town not chara typically suspect people who suspect it?

[Imperium]

Anybody who gets off this wagon, now that it has consolidated, will be viewed with extreme suspicion after Clumsy flips.

Remember this if we flip.

I actually liked this post from Shapiro. Yes I get that this could come from scum but from what I've experienced with Shaziro (which is only one game offsite), he doesn't seem like that kind of ballsy player.

It feels silly to like it but I do.

[Imperium]

Liked the rest of the post, don't understand what you're saying with this point.
Saying that get scumread frequently is them trying too hard to pretend to be town...?

tbh, looking back at it, I really do not know what I was trying to accomplish with that.

Are you still happy with your vote on them?

There was other stuff I pointed out in that post plus my interactions with them so I'm happy with it, but I could always join you back on NC.

Can you talk about you nc read?

[Imperium]

And I am all caught up. I'm heading out though and will post some of ,y actual thoughts when I'm home and not on my phone.

[Imperium]

if you're actually scumreading me based on Socrates's case.

Where did you get this impression?

[Imperium]

if Imperium is scum, Clumsy is almost certainly town.

Any statement that begins with if imperium is scum will lead to a flawed conclusion.

How does suspecting you go counter to our thoughts. You offered a safe suggestion. Keep the balls separate. That's not sticking your neck out, that is the safe thing to argue. It gets you no flack because that sounds like the most protown thing to suggest.

Where do you think you stuck your neck out and offered something that is against the grain?

[Imperium]

early assessment of Almost here suggests he's leaning town. i like Desperado's assessment of that one Almost post coming from town (meaning i like Desperado), but Almost is a self-aware scum and is perfectly capable of forming such a thought. he remembers things and uses them, his alignment has little to do with it. that would be why Almost is only lean town. i certainly don't want him lynched, however. i haven't seen anything from him i don't like yet.

Why do you like desperado for liking almost's post as coming from town and ignoring that we had already discussed liking almost's approach there?

I want this question answered as your going through things. This one matters more to me than the ball stuff, which this head cares little about.

[Imperium]

i perceived as Socrates not committing to that tell with the other players who had exhibited it.

And this is the problematic point for me. You imply that he should have treated all three people the same because he had a tell he was pushing on, which isn't exactly true; the approach he laid out of townreading the other two while not really feeling anything positive towards you seemed completely reasonable to me which is why the "he didn't commit hard enough" argument falls flat.

[Imperium]

scum just like to say something functionally correct in lieu of scum hunting.
i can only assume this means you agree with me

When I say "correct", I don't necessarily mean that it's the proper play for town to make, only that it's the position with the most easily accessible logic.

Does that make any sense at all?

[Imperium]

Tells in and of themselves do not mean the person thinks oh everyone who does this one thing is definite scum. They do not exist in a vacuum. If someone commits one tell you find scummy, and they haven't done anything else you find town, pushing them for it is what mafia is all about. Selective scumhunting exists, sure, but I don't see it playing out in this case.

Also and not related here, asking questions is not throwing shade, it's trying to figure out the game.

[Imperium]

i suggested playing it safe, that does not mean it was a'safe' suggestion.

Disagree with this. You saying you would work against attempts to group them wasn't a risk; it would be a risk if we established we were grouping and you had a means of sabotaging it, but that's not what was going on.

Unsafe positions look like Socrates's; zefiend's position was also safe, but he stuck his neck out pretty far for it. It would also be an unsafe position to suggest we send it out to a group of townreads, yes.

[Imperium]

I think you'd probably not gotten the flak that you did for the mechanic discussion if you'd had something else also. It's a very safe thing to enter a game with and when people do that and they don't have other townie sounding posts it becomes the crux of the suspicion, and right now it's becoming too much of the discussion concerning you which doesn't help this head actually sort you.

I have a theory forming of getting the balls, or letting people hammer, who are sort of in the Poe but probably town to keep the stronger/more widely town read players alive, but I'm not sure how to get it into play.

Well but playing it safe is a safe suggestion precisely because it sounds so protown, but I don't really care about the balls or any of that because it doesn't help me sort you. Your entrance gave good enough reason for an early push to sort, and your Socrates position came across puzzling.

[Imperium]

early assessment of Almost here suggests he's leaning town. i like Desperado's assessment of that one Almost post coming from town (meaning i like Desperado), but Almost is a self-aware scum and is perfectly capable of forming such a thought. he remembers things and uses them, his alignment has little to do with it. that would be why Almost is only lean town. i certainly don't want him lynched, however. i haven't seen anything from him i don't like yet.

Why do you like desperado for liking almost's post as coming from town and ignoring that we had already discussed liking almost's approach there?

I want this question answered as your going through things. This one matters more to me than the ball stuff, which this head cares little about.

i liked the way Desperado explained his thought process surrounding the read after being questioned, it looked very genuine to me. simply thinking Almost is town for that posting isn't really enough for me. unless i missed it somewhere, you didn't really go in depth about it. essentially, Desperado caught my attention there while i just forgot that you had that opinion. i happened to mention Desperado there because i was reminded of the townread while talking about Almost.

pedit: i don't see a point arguing about that further then, we're not going to agree and if you believe this then i don't have a problem with that stance.

So here's the thing and why I care about the desperado thing is because we did give a town read for his approach to typing. Typing misunderstood what we meant, and I explained that we townread the way almost scumhunted typing, but did not agree with the conclusion.

Now nacho had expressed early suspicion on desperado and when I think about how desperado!scum might navigate the game against nacho (my other head), I think he would try to make it look like they were on a similar wavelength early. I could see him pointing out a read we already gave, understanding what looked town about it, and sharing that. Now he could also just be town on the same wavelength, sure, but I found it interesting that you liked desperado's take while ignoring that the first person to even mention that list looking like town was us.

[Imperium]

and you aren't scumreading Clumsy.

When people make that statement it's because they are approaching the game with that viewpoint. If we're scum, clumsy is probably town.

We're not scum, so if you're basing your read of clumsy on us, that's wrong.

And no we're not scumreading clumsy, and yes even we flip that will be evident that we're town, but if you're viewing reads today with that premise in mind and how it affects the alignments of other players, you'll be wrong.

[Imperium]

Almost - does town not chara typically suspect people who suspect it?

Not necessarily. It depends on how the suspicion is expressed and what the reasoning behind it is. (i.e. NC doesn't automatically suspect everyone who suspects the like -say- Titus/-Grey-/RC do).

What do you think of the way he's doing it here?

[Imperium]

*tywin not typing on phone stupid autocorrect

[Imperium]

Re: post in question: Not necessarily. It would be easy rhetorical food for him to force a scumread on Tywin, but he chose to back off and look elsewhere. That's what makes it seem genuine.

Incidentally,

vote count

?

I don't agree that it easy at all. there was a level of sophistication to the read that is difficult to fake for anyone and it's not like almost could have planned to scumread tywin for that exact thing pregame; if they had I would have expected something less fully formed.

Is this him outlining his thoughts in a way that you liked?

[Imperium]

I agree that your explanation makes sense, but I don't think Desperado as scum wouldn't be able to recognize why that post looked town and I don't think he has strong motivations not to explain it when asked as scum.

[Imperium]

So here's the thing and why I care about the desperado thing is because we did give a town read for his approach to typing. Typing misunderstood what we meant, and I explained that we townread the way almost scumhunted typing, but did not agree with the conclusion.

i know this means Tywin, not typing.

Now nacho had expressed early suspicion on desperado and when I think about how desperado!scum might navigate the game against nacho (my other head), I think he would try to make it look like they were on a similar wavelength early. I could see him pointing out a read we already gave, understanding what looked town about it, and sharing that. Now he could also just be town on the same wavelength, sure, but I found it interesting that you liked desperado's take while ignoring that the first person to even mention that list looking like town was us.

i've just explained it. the

conclusion

of liking Almost's handling of Tywin has nothing to do with it. i liked the way Desperado explained himself regarding it. it certainly doesn't look like scum jumping on a read to try and buddy you, if that's what you're implying.
i had to go ISO you and look for Almost to find the opinion you were talking about. you didn't elaborate, you just had an opinion. i'm supposed to remember that? Desperado made a show of it in his initial post on the matter and then had to defend the opinion when questioned. it's not really a mental leap to figure out why he left an impression and you did not.
seeing Desperado's thoughts outlined as they were = townread. thinking Almost is town for the Tywin thing =/= townread. is that better?

I do not disagree that he went into more depth about the read. He was around when people got their panties in a jimmy about almost50 and we were not.

I do believe that if desperado is scum here, he'd approach that somewhat similarly as in being on a wavelength which nacho. I think he'd probably approach that situation carefully. This is because the person I think scum desperado would be most concerned about here is nacho. They have played together quite a lot and hydrad, so there's gonna be some expectations there.

It's something that pinged me when I read it, and if we did keep thinking you were scum and you were scum, this could be interesting.

[Imperium]

Oh no people make thinking out loud pre-flip associations all the time, myself included. I thought you were making a read based post today because I thought that's where you were going with your read on us.

It was more a read clumsy based on clumsy not what you think of us unless you're interested in why we're town leaning the slot.

[Imperium]

Vote: Vifam

Liking Not Chara's responses.
Not Chara, what do you think of Vifam this game?

[Imperium]

I asked you to rephrase my case because I had a feeling you weren't reading my posts. The fact that you didn't even know that I was pushing a case at all demonstrates that you probably weren't reading my posts, which I think is where my partner's frustration came from. I think this is a non-issue between us; I push scumreads plenty.

[Imperium]

You feel flat.

[Imperium]

Ended up needing to talk to family tonight forever and I'm about to crash so postponing giving my actual thoughts but real quick:

Notchara - no I didn't care that you didn't town read us for the read, it wasn't about that. Desperado also didn't ping me per se by having the same read and explaining it. It could come from him town. I do not have a read on desperado, which isn't terribly concerning but nacho doesn't either, which is concerning. He has liked soulless things he's done but not enough for an actual town read.

It interested me in the sense of, this is something I want fleshed out for what it could mean purposes, if that makes sense.

Shaziro - nacho modded gossip girl and I played chuck bass the one that kinda tunneled you for a good portion of day one.

[Imperium]

Actually I'm probably not falling asleep right away so I'm going to ramble. I'm also tipsy and on my phone so forgive my misspellings.

I'm surprised that a good number of people have such a good pile of town reads because nacho and I only have two that we feel really good about: tywin and not chara.

We have other leans and things we've liked about other people, namely and for the most part clumsy, almost, and abr (I believe this is correct, there was some drinking involved earlier, but actually abr is the only one I don't think we discussed or said yeah that's a town lean together. That could just be me.)

Almost everybody else we both agree has some good posts, like some things generically but have not moved out of the I feel comfortable in them not being scum basket yet. I'd like to have more people out of that basket, but it seems like ever since I came off my million game scum streak last year, which spanned five sites mind you!, it's taken me longer to move people into a decent town read category, but nacho is there too so I guess I'm not too stunted.

Anyway that's where I'm at right now, and hopefully starting tomorrow we'll be able to make progress sorting that basket, but for now you get ramble me. You're welcome!

Tywin - I really like and appreciate that you need more to solve the game. Your urgency is part of what has both of us town reading you. You are right that what I said this morning was mean. I'm sorry. Not that it forgives it but I read that right after waking up too early in the morning on the weekend. Hat coupled with how I'm feeling about the way people are treating each other in mafia set me off, but that doesn't excuse me being mean.

What you might be looking at as fluff is me sorting the game in my own way. I do pretty well, get quite decent reads and am generally town read by most players, so I don't feel the need to change my style. There are things to work on, yes and I do and am working on things I can improve on. But my style and how I approach the game isn't one of those. I'm indecisive as hell and overthink things a lot and I like to get things right, so that is what you're going to see from me. If you don't know me a lot of it can look fluffy or maybe like I'm not scumhunting, but if you read for my thought process you'll see I'm putting out what I think. if you want to actually talk to me and figure out the game, I'm happy to.

[Imperium]

Maria are you and abr close?

[Imperium]

I will make it in thread later tonight, I have some chores I'd like to work on first.

[Imperium]

Finished reading the game, but as Tammy noted earlier, the game is a big nasty blurred mess of "meh" with a couple of exceptions. I'll work on reading through ISOs now, see what I can find that shakes out.

[Imperium]

Alisae:

Oh yeah Tywin what's your flavor?

Why did you ask this question? Normally I'm not one for rolefishing accusations because I think they're dumb as hell, but I can't really see why you would ask this as town.

I don't really care about the ball mechanics.
I don't see why everyone else is tbh.

I liked his approach to the dragonballs here; as an example for taking an unsafe position in a mechanics, Alisae shrugged and brushed off the entire conversation at a time when it was something that people were talking about quite a bit early game.

Alisae's first attempt at scumhunting is voting Almost for this post. The impetus behind the initial push is that Almost is attacking ABR for a post that isn't really indicative of alignment (which is a fine point in and of itself). He moves to question Almost's early townreads, gets this as a response, then ends up backing off.

Alisae, why did you back off at that post (did you find the answer satisfactory)? Why not press him to answer for the post you voted him for in the first place?

I like his short-lived post on Socrates; it feels genuine in that he jumps on something and then immediately jumps off and I can see the thought process behind it easily enough (he thought Socrates was making a reachy attack, then realizes he probably dismissed it too quickly). Right now there's a common thread of attacking people for making reachy attacks in general (happens with Almost later, happens with Tywin), which makes sense with his early approach; he's hanging back and analyzing things more than making things happen, and I like how he's willing to push and let go of the push pretty quickly (and not on very much) because it makes it less likely that he's looking for weak points to push and more trying to figure out.

Noting 150 as another point where Alisae attacks Almost but doesn't seem to follow through.

I now just came to the realization that my early scumread on Socrates was stupid and I now like every one of his posts and is therefore my top TR now.

Could you go into this read a little more in depth?
I know that your initial approach was to dislike his scumread on Not Chara but I thought you ended up dismissing that pretty much immediately after you started pushing it; this implies that your scumread held on a bit longer than that. What posts did you like that you didn't like before? What were you scumreading him for here if it wasn't his initial Not Chara push? Why did you vote Not Chara if it wasn't for Socrates's post?

I really would like to see more tbh.
We have the Shaz head saying Zef is scum for hypocrisy but doesn't vote them (Meh scumtell at best).
Saying they get SR'd real hard looks LAMIST.
Shaz doesn't really comment on anything else that's going on in the gamestate.
Don't really get how they said Zef dropped a scumtell to Zef being town but ok.

I would really like Shaz to talk more about Maria.
Shaz can you talk more about Maria?

So I really don't have a good grasp on it? Like, I would sorta like to see them post more if anything. Does that make sense?

This is a meh post in general.
Shaziro never said that zefiend was scum for hypocrisy (he simply answered zefiend's weird public poll question), I've already talked about my problem with the LAMIST reasoning and the zefiend confusion at the end would have been solved if he read Shaziro's first post a little more closely. Him not adding anything significant to the gamestate is kind of a given, and him talking more about the person he naked voting after being completely silent up to that point also seems like an obvious question to ask.

What bothers me more than this post, though, is Alisae's eventual reasons for voting Clumsy - his 312 implied that he wanted to have a conversation with them before voting for them, but after he figured out he was wrong with half of his case and Shaziro had a reason for voting Maria that he didn't like, Alisae decided that there wasn't really a chance that he was town anymore and voted him. Alisae, why was Shaziro being unaware of Maria's meta a reason to vote him and stop talking with him?

I liked this post, though; while it's not something I feel strongly about, I do feel like scum players have a tendency to play up their contributions instead of acknowledging their mistakes when they make them (I have been scumhunting a BUNCH! My reasons for suspecting player X were rock solid! etc).

And, as with most things, I find that Tammy got to questioning on something that bothered me before I did, and so here's Alisae's response to his Clumsy vote:

I don't think Maria posted anything that seems AI, and claiming that they were defensive seems ehhhhhhh I didn't really like the arguement and thought it was bad.
Also I hate the first part of the question, it seems really manipulative to me.

You've pressed a lot of players for attacking others for reasons that aren't alignment indicative without voting them (in particular, Almost's attack on Vifam). I agree the assertion that MariaR was "defensive scum" there is pretty ridiculous considering she wasn't even responding to an attack on her. I don't understand why you hate the first part of the question or even what question you're talking about.

At first blush, I agree with Alisae's take on Tywin versus Majiffy (although I think Tywin looks much townier from that than Majiffy does).

What I don't understand is this take here:

Actually no, this isn't a TvT.
I don't believe that Tywin forgot that the clums hydra is scum.
With Majiffy they were like "Welp, 1 scum caught D1" and that's great an all but did Tywin suddenly forget about the Clums hydra? Because it doesn't read genuine to me?

Alisae's first thought on Tywin vs Majiffy was because they were both town, but as soon as Tywin goes "I caught 1 scum D1" instead of "I caught 2 scum D1" Alisae flips from townread to full scumread, which doesn't exactly make sense to me. The frustration over the chainsaw accusation isn't frustration than I can understand too well; this was the post detailing how unreasonable he thought that the chainsawing accusation was, but chainsawing is attacking your scumpartner's attacker, so Tywin thinking Alisae might be scum defending his #1 scumread isn't exactly the most insane thing anyone's ever said (or anywhere close to it).

Alisae backing off makes about as much sense as the initial attack: Alisae, could you talk me though your Tywin read in full? How did you go from town to scum to town again to trending scum again immediately after?

Tywin, you going back and forth on your read on me is hilarious just FYI.

Can you also explain this? I feel like you should be able to understand where he's coming from pretty well when you're going back on forth on your read on him quite frequently yourself.

[Imperium]

Overall, though, Alisae is still a slight townread for me. There's a lot of sheer back and forth on reads that makes it seem like he's genuinely deliberating about reads, and I like that he's made pushes on a pretty high number of players in a fairly short amount of time. The reason why he's only a slight townread is because while his approach to the game is not really what I expect from scum, there are still a number of things that concern me. The major things that I want him to address the most are mostly his vote on Clumsy (he went from "I want to talk to him, really give him a chance to prove himself before I vote him" then voted him for what read like a bad understanding of Maria's meta), and his Tywin read (scumread him initially for him not understanding Alisae's approach to the game, leaned town on him because he was townreading too many people and he liked their interactions, strongly townread him later for Majiffy interactions then scumread him because he said he caught 1 scum in Majiffy and not 2 in Majiffy and Clumsy, townread him again for reasons I don't understand but then agreed with Shaziro that he was looking worse and worse immediately after).

I doubt pretty strongly that Alisae and Tywin are scum together; their interactions are in depth enough where they are either trying to genuinely figure each other out or figure out how to interact with each other with out getting caught.

I also have some small concerns with his Almost and Maria interactions; with Almost, he approaches him pretty early in the game to try to figure him out but then that fizzles and he halfheartedly points out an Almost attack he didn't like (didn't follow through with it even though he followed through with a majority of his other pushed). With Maria, he defended her pretty strongly from Clumsy and established himself as someone who was confident talking about her meta, but hasn't really made an attempt to figure her out this game yet.

[Imperium]

I don't need it responded to all right now or all at once (obviously), but if you could talk about your Clumsy and Tywin reads a little more after reading my concerns with them in the previous post it would help a lot.

[Imperium]

I think I came to the conclusion that I was trying a bit too hard and I really wasn't going to get explanations from him then, especially considering it's 5 pages in. Also his concern that some scum might copy his reads at the time came across as genuine to me.

This makes sense as an explanation, can especially sympathize with the "trying too hard too early" bit.
Agree that him being concerned that he'd be giving the key to scum seemed genuine, although I expect that'd probably be something he posts as either alignment (if his playstyle is not to explain scumreads early, then he does it as both alignments or else it's an obvious tell).

It didn't linger at all, and yes I did start TRing him when I pushed NC with him. I TR'd him even more because I liked the sequence of posts that happenned. I didn't feel like he was trying to manipulate people. Like, I really liked his response to Maria's not so great post. If anything the only real problems I had with Socrates basicly happened because I wasn't reading. And I stated earlier I think somewhere, I was mostly just sheeping Socrates' case on NC.

OK. #218 just seemed like a oddly times post when in reality you started townreading Socrates like 7 hours earlier, but the more we talk about this the less I care about it.

I like the questioning in 758
And them trying to talk to me about the Majiffy wagon comp also seemed genuine.

Eh.
This really isn't all that compelling for me; two good questions does not a townread make unless I'm missing something significant.

[Imperium]

I hope you guys know I'm skimming through every wall I see and by skim I mean I look for my name

Just waiting for you to turn it on.
Is it true that you're just another member of the lurkmass now? Two separate people have said that your posting is essentially drifty nothingness now and that was never my impression of you before.

[Imperium]

Avalanche-style readslist; you go from the person with the highest postcount and work your way down. The hope is that I spend time on everyone and not just Alisae and end with an understanding on the gamestate that is more in depth and confident than what it is now.

[Imperium]

especially when you I thought you already town-read them?

Also, where did we give the impression that we already townread Alisae?

[Imperium]

It's a race to the bottom between me and Almost. I say we quicklynch him first. If he doesn't flip scum, the mod sent the wrong PM. Then we quicklynch Alisae just because. If he's not scum, who cares. PL ftw. Then we quicklynch the other scums and win. I have laid out the entire plan for town, so this is an easy win. If we lose, I blame someone not named Tywin.

Not a significant reason at all, but I still like how playful he was in early game even given time and distance. For what it's worth, I skimmed his ISO in Timeshift and his initial approach there feels much different than his approach here; he seems a lot more calmer, focused, agenda-driven there than he does here, and my general perception is that players with his scum style tend to avoid spazzing out too much early game since they don't like running the risk of getting wagonned for dumb reasons.

I think it's pretty obvious what my role is if I say my flavor name, so I don't see any reason to give it out.
Claiming on D1 is just bad play lol. It got you and grey killed last game almost immediately.

Confused how "I don't know the flavor" = "my role and flavor is obviously linked" work together, but don't actually want him to respond to this point.
As a whole, this looks slightly >rand town to me; it limits his options claiming as scum although it's something that obviously needs to be kept in mind and the above addressed when he does claim down the road.

Why are you calling me jumpy for questioning you? That's not how this works.

My guess that referring to you as jumpy referred to your accusation that we were "shading your wagon" by saying that we liked Almost's approach to you but didn't agree with the conclusion, which wasn't an accusation that would make sense when our post was interpreted properly.

His approach to the mechanics (in that he seemed to be sussing them out in thread) seemed genuine enough; not sure that it would be something that he would think to fake, but I'd imagine that the types of questions he was asking would be moderator or PT questions if he were scum. Also not a significant towntell.

You have very subtle differences in what you ask and how you ask it when town/scum. I could be wrong here, but you're the best I've got so far early on D1.

You backed off your scumread here pretty much immediately - why?
What are the "very subtle differences" that you're referring to here? In the post before, you talk about Alisae's bad questioning that doesn't go anywhere which seems to imply that the difference between Alisae-town and Alisae-scum is that one asks pointless questions and the other doesn't, which is very different from "very subtle differences".

Why are you saying it is AI? I talked about it and I know I'm not scum. So do you have a reason for this view or just hoping to shade anyone that dares mention game mechanics?

This is another place where you're jumpy - AI means alignment indicative (which means that it's either a town tell or a scum tell) - Desperado's post in no way imply that it means that the discussion was scummy and yet you assumed it did because...? Even if you were mistaken in that you thought NAI meant "it can be town or scum" while AI means "it only goes one way", there was no reason to assume that one way was scum.

Mechanic talk, due to being able to go either way, is essentially NAI.

And this is small and insignificant, but mechanics talk can look town and it can look scum, which is what makes it alignment indicative. For example, breaking the game for town through mechanics is "mechanics talk" and yet it's pretty much a perfect towntell whereas the bad approaches to mechanics both Socrates and I have talked about are typically more indicative of scum. NAI means there's not a conclusion to be drawn, not that a conclusion can go either way.

Does that make sense?

Here's something that doesn't add up: if scum have the same wish as town (resurrecting a dead player), then it's useless to them. We know whose scum after a flip, so bringing that player back just gets them lynched again immediately. All it does is give scum essentially one more wasted day/NK. This can't be what they have them for, because it just doesn't make sense. Mine as well just give scum a free kill or something.

So maybe town can only use it to resurrect a dead townie, but scum probably have other uses.

This engagement also looks town; again, fairly confident that a scumteam that wasn't completely incompetent would have hashed out "how do the dragonballs benefit us?" and would have discussed it by now. Don't think that it's an approach Tywin would take in order to get towncred.

I also don't have a case on someone I need to push (besides clumsy, whose posts and extremely late entrance is the case in itself).

I don't think Majiffy's point that Tywin's Clumsy post is pretty much baseless is a bad one at all; hilariously enough, a case that looks like this is one that I could easily see Majiffy posting.

Tywin's later discussion of how happy he is to catch scum here reads pretty fake, but that's not necessarily a scumtell.

Side note: I like the Ali/Clumsy exchange. It changed my mind on Ali. He's not a solid TR. Scum Ali wouldn't have wasted the chance to shade me there. I'm pretty confident in that, far more than I was with the original SR. Ali wasting chances to shade anyone wouldn't happen unless town.

Could you talk about this with me?
The Ali/Clumsy exchanged mostly of Ali questioning Clumsy on things that had absolutely nothing to do with you; why would he shade you there? Do you expect him as scum to talk about his scumread on you in every post that he makes or is there a more reasonable angle that I'm missing here?

Unless someone knows his meta enough to say he'd do that as scum, I put him firmly in a town slot.

It's been well-established that this read is much stronger than the reasoning you put behind it, but, just for completeness's sake, this read is too strong for that weak as shit reasoning. One statement espousing conviction in a wagon shouldn't make him prep him up to your top townread, especially since he's no longer standing behind his conviction. If your point was that it was probably not something ABR would say about a scumpartner, then you'd probably (maybe) be right, but even then, not top townread worthy.

I don't buy the 'I'm always SR immediately' thing from the other head. If that's the case as town, then don't be scummy?

This is not a great point.
There's no reason for either alignment to look scummy. No one actively tries to look scummy in most circumstances. If it was as easy as "stopping being scummy", then no one would ever look scummy in games.

[Imperium]

Tl;dr: get to the point and give your SRs. Take a stance and say why. Not doing so is becoming scummy.

I liked his big gamestate rant here and how there's no reason to push TRs and only push SRs because talking about TRs isn't productive ever; it seemed like genuine frustration with how things were going and seemed like an attempt to change it. Yet another approach I find unlikely coming from scum looking for towncred.

Unless someone can't point out his playstyle as specifically fitting a past scum game, I'm taking it as a definitive TR on D1.

The expectation here is unreasonable. Your argument is "If X, then Y unless Z", people are telling you that your premise is wrong and explaining how your premise is wrong, but you're not giving those explanations the time of day unless they prove that the exception case is true when that's not anywhere near the problem with your argument.

Also, I'll repeat: anyone with a reason not to vote clumsy, go ahead and tell me why. Otherwise, why aren't you also SRing the slot? If they flip scum, any fence sitter should be the subsequent lynches, and yes, I'm playing pre-flip associations. If you take a hard town stance on them, at least I know you weren't playing both sides in hopes of derailing the lynch but leaving open the bus possibility if necessary.

The case offered on them at the point by you was "the case and the entrance", "he said he was scummy", and "he shaded me for bad reasoning" which I guess isn't the worst case in the world, but isn't anywhere close to a slam-dunk lock 'em up type of case. Why did you expect everyone to hard stances? Now that your bloodlust for the wagon has faded, who jumped on/supported the wagon opportunistically?

It's a way for scum to feel out town and see who is can be easily mislynched and who shouldn't be clashed with.

If you're a strong scum player, you don't see who can be mislynched by townreading them - you see who can be mislynched by pushing to mislynch them, which is something you've alluded to earlier in your discussions with Alisae ("if I wanted a wagon on you, I'd be pushing you") so I have no idea why you think explaining why people are town allows scum to gauge who is lynchable and who is not.

Your suspicion is fine and I have no problems with it, but if you can't push a SR at all, it's certainly not my job to do it for you. That's on you, and since you have two heads, I'm sure one of you can come up with a way to convince others if you legitimately SR someone. If you are scum, it only helps you to have town push your wagons for you.

"Doing the work for you" here implies that we hadn't done work at this point (we did). The point of the exercise, which I think I already talked about, was to see if you were actually aware of our case before calling it illegitimate, and this, for me at least, is fairly solid proof that you didn't. It annoys me when people dismiss cases or points of view for reasons that have nothing to do with the cases and the points itself, which is what it looks like happened here (and which I challenged you on before but you got too distracted with Majiffy to respond).

(the only two people you've now engaged with all game long, and at least one being obvious OMGUS)

I don't think that it's fair to say that Majiffy's vote on you is "obvious OMGUS", considering his 180 was made well before you had any mention of him. I disagree with him that you're doing nothing, but I do agree with him that your main pushes so far have been fairly empty (I paraphrased the Clumsy case earlier and it certainly wasn't substantive, and your townreads certainly aren't substantive either which isn't surprising when you don't think talking about them is productive).

However, I don't think that this game has been particularly dense so far (which is part of why I'm struggling as much as I am developing reads), and I think that pretending that anyone is driving the game harder than you are is dumb; I also believe he's ignoring a huge chunk of your play when he calls you the "fluffer nutter do nothing" or whatever the hell you said because it's clear (to me and Tammy, at least) that you're not just posting for the sake of posting like he's implying.

then his case is bad, OMGUS vote is bad, and he didn't seem to SR me (or anyone else in the game except Almost) until I pushed him for a reaction.

His case is bad, yes. You're wrong that he wasn't scumreading you earlier and you're wrong that a bad case automatically equals scum.

Sorry, prove it. I've done an ISO on you. This is an easily proven lie. You're really reaching here.

This type of post is the type that I can't really see coming from scum Tywin; he's demonstrated several times this game that he occasionally jumps before thinking, but the reasoning that is most accessible for me is that he does things like this because he believes very strongly in what he's saying. As scum, I'd imagine that the conviction would be faked and thus he'd be a little more wary of leaving obvious lies in his cases against people.

This all boils down to Majiff saying my posts 'look' like fluff and making a false narrative in an effort to twist it into that. Since I've clearly made points and gave reads/stances, the wordy parts don't matter. They can be called fluff all day, but the overarching points are still full of substance.

I agree that Majiffy's approach to you is exaggeration and exaggeration and more exaggeration. If it were anyone else then I'd probably be right by your side lynching Majiffy but unfortunately it's not and Majiffy is prone to exaggeration and exaggeration and more exaggeration.

Again, I'm fairly confident in this guy being scum to a point where I'm good with being lynched if I take him with me.

This is stupid. If you can't get him lynched in life, you certainly can't do it in death.

[Imperium]

Tywin hasn't addressed points: I haven't? Again, do you just not read at all and think if you keep repeating things up that are obviously false, people will believe it?

I think that you've addressed the crux of Majiffy's case on you. I also think that you've missed some things; there are minor things in this post, for one.

Everyone that SRs Tywin is scum: I never said this and again, you're twisting words to fit a false narrative. In that effect, you're voting me because I SR you. Ironic. I slightly SR Alisae now based on your flip, because if/when you flip scum, he's got a lot of explanning to do for his hard defense of you. You haven't even mentioned Ali all game, yet they are hard in your corner. If you were town, then would you not find that suspicious? Would you say your play is super townie enough for anyone to go balls to the wall defense for you on day 1, without any flips, any PR investigations, or anything else that can confirm you? What do you think of Alisae? Any thoughts at all, or would you rather pretend they don't exist?

You've had three major scumreads this game, from what I can tell: Majiffy, Alisae, and Clumsy. You became confident in Majiffy is scum because of his push on you. You dropped your strong townread on Alisae because of his push on you. One of your reasons for suspecting Clumsy was his shade on you due to the flavor talk. The "everyone that SRs Tywin is scum" statement isn't entirely unfair; it's exaggerated, as are most things Majiffy says, but it's not completely off base.

All Tywin has done is say Majiff's ISO is empty: it is! Lol!

I don't think Majiffy is winning an award for being the most useful townie ever, but this statement is an exaggeration, just like Majiffy's statement is an exaggeration about you.

I can go more in depth into your Majiffy read if you'd like, Tywin, but a majority of it seems to be 1) Majiffy OMGUSing you (he suspected you earlier, and I don't think it's very likely Majiffy would launch into an all-out offense on you when you were already pushing Clumsy and had him in a pool and not his top scumread), his ISO is empty (fairly devoid of content before the push on you, sure. outside of his townrange, probably not.), and his push on you is full of exaggerations and lies (extreme exaggeration is what Majiffy does sometimes, most of the points I've seen have at least a casual relationship with the truth).

[Imperium]

And as a summation of that read, ending up pretty confident that Tywin as town. I think the assertion that he's fluffing and just posting for the sake of posting is pretty ridiculous; there are many posts that take pretty impressive skill to finesse as skill, and from what I've read from his scumplay, it's fairly standard in that he doesn't attempt to get towncred by feigning unfamiliarity with mechanics he should have talked about in the scum PT already. I think that a lot of his tunnels seem fairly genuine; his Majiffy read in particular does seem pretty strongly town even while the grandstanding he did around the Clumsy read didn't (although the read as a whole did). I like how strongly he's driving the game forward, I like how strongly he seems to care about how the day is going and how he tries multiple times to get it on track, and I've liked his interactions with Alisae and think that his townread to scumread to mehread transition, like Alisae's read on Tywin, is probably too all over the place and cracked out to be coming from scum. I think that his offer to lynch himself looked genuine.

This is also a read that Tammy and I agreed on as one of our "two good townreads" before I actually started reading through (the other being Not Chara), so my ISO of him ended up being more checking our assumptions and less talking about a read, but I can't see him ever flipping scum this game (would still like my posts asking him questions addressed, though). If someone needs me to sell this read instead of just rambling about it, just let me know.

[Imperium]

There's not a character that must be included, especially since last game was broken pretty solidly in part due to flavor
I'm not sure why Maria is interesting in assessing flavor here.

[Imperium]

I need time to catch up. As I've said entirely too many times before, still adjusting to my brand spanking new overnight schedule which means that sometimes when my days drag longer than I want them to my sleep schedule is fucked and that's that.

Tammy additionally has a fairly brutal day tomorrow, and she probably won't be able to actually post until Saturday, whereas my big chunk of availability falls on Monday afternoon.

Today, I'll run through concerns I have with Clumsy being town and at least try to get through that, won't be able to do much else (if that). If you want us to play our best game, then we need more time to work. If the game moves on without us then that sucks, but there's not a whole lot we can do about it right now other than ask people to stay patient.

[Imperium]

Vote: Maria

Definitely don't mind doing this for now, though.

[Imperium]

No CC =/= town, but there's a possibility that Clumsy is fakeclaiming in order to draw out an additional dragonball.

[Imperium]

Granted, I was mostly waiting on Clumsyhead more than anything, because I tend to get scumread when I post without using him as a filter.

I think that this is a post more likely to be made by town than by scum; it's the transparency that is a little wonky coming from town but looks absolutely bizarre coming from scum. In other words, if Clumsy and Shaziro's approach to surviving as scum was "Shaziro waits to talk with Clumsy so he doesn't look so horrible when he posts", then I'm not sure that they'd out their scum strategy in their entrance post or be as comfortable as they are about waiting to post so they don't look scummy.

[Imperium]

Vote: Maria

Definitely don't mind doing this for now, though.

Now who's the one who can't read

What did I fail to read?

[Imperium]

Anybody who gets off this wagon, now that it has consolidated, will be viewed with extreme suspicion after Clumsy flips.

Remember this if we flip.

Shaziro, why did you find this post significant?

[Imperium]

Vote: Maria

Definitely don't mind doing this for now, though.

Now who's the one who can't read

What did I fail to read?

Still waiting for a response to this question.

[Imperium]

I was actually going to make a post about the second one, but realized a flaw in my logic.

Clumsy, what were you going to say here and what was the flaw in your logic?

(As an aside, I like this post - I do think that Tywin occasionally has a tone that comes across as fake and his many words over not knowing the DBZ flavor certainly plays into that, and I think the nuance in having a reason for pushing him but letting it go from expressing it is nicely faked if he's scum here.)

[Imperium]

Why did you say "now who's the one who can't read"?

[Imperium]

Talking with the Shaz head, I liked Socrates' case about Not Chara. Shaz head agrees, so we're going to follow there.

VOTE: Not Chara

I thought the progression here (which I didn't pick up on before) was actually a pretty genuine one to lead up to voting Not Chara - Alisae talked about voting NC because of Socrates's case, Clumsy evaluates it and likes it, they don't end up voting NC until three days later after they've talked. It's a nice lack of urgency for someone who was getting wagoned hard; if they were scum, I'd expect that they would be looking to push Not Chara as a counterwagon (talk to Alisae about the read more, actually vote them) but the way they approached it very much seemed like they were talking over things and trying to make the best vote.

[Imperium]

When I was reading through this, I was having a lot of the same thoughts, especially the "If she said it was just a first page joke, I would have shrugged and let it go". I don't know a whole lot about tells in this game, but Socrates has been playing for much longer than I have, and I town read him, so I'm taking his word on that tell. It makes sense to me, and this actually reminded me of a scum game I played in. RC had a role which let other people give him their votes, and I joked that we should all just give him our votes and let him try to win the game. I was immediately jumped on because it came out insinuating that I knew he was town. Now, I would have made the same joke either way as town or scum, but since I WAS scum, I had to keep up appearances. So I buckled down on it and argued for Town!RC. This felt similar to that, buckling down when under pressure early.

This explanation for sheeping felt fairly genuine to me, and the expansion on what was alluded to earlier (that the most compelling point of the case to him was that Socrates said that he would have let it go if it just stayed a joke but the defense felt meh) is again a very nice touch if they are scum here.

[Imperium]

I read through that whole wall and my eyes only glazed over once or twice! You've made a few shit assumptions here, and I'm assuming that's because you're scum trying to push a narrative.

I like the confidence and conviction in this read; Socrates I noticed liked it too but managed to dismiss it by rationalizing it by Clumsy finding someone to spar with who had weak rhetoric, but I don't think that makes sense. If Clumsy is scum here, nothing changes with the discovery of Tywin; the wagon on them is still much stronger and, even if stars align and they manage to get Tywin lynched, they're still dead tomorrow - finding a player you can beat up as scum is nice, but it's typically not enough impetus for a change in attitude. Finding scum is different; as town, finding scum Day 1 means that even if you get lynched today, there's a roadmap to follow after you're gone and even if scum manage to lynch you today, you will still win if they fall down after you die.

I think that the way Clumsy argues that Tywin is trying to get out of taking responsibility for their town flip looks very, very town and I think that their recent arguments against him and a touch of the recent argument against ABR is pretty compelling evidence for them having the attitude of "I found scum!" as opposed to "I found a weak player!".

A couple examples of the above:

This is a great way of setting up being able to wash your hands of this lynch after it flips town.

P-edit: To those that are actually town, don't let those pushing this wagon through slide off with "they looked really scummy!" if we get lynched today.

I think that this makes a lot of sense from a VT who thinks they're probably going to get lynched because they basically always get lynched.
I also think that a VT claim here looks townier than not; with the amount of suspicion they've already gotten thus far they're obviously not avoiding the lynch, the only thing that they're doing by not claiming a power role and trying to out a strong power role for the scumteam is fucking their scumbuds over if scum.

[Imperium]

I also want those who are familiar with the flavour to weigh in regarding that claim. Does it sound legit? Is that character a main character (as in must be included) or does sound more like a safe fake-claim (Kuroi does provide those, btw).

Who did Clum claim I didn't see I know quite a bit on DBZ so I can judge

I'm not sure why Maria is interesting in assessing flavor here.

Flavor means NOTHING but if it will get people off the topic I'll help

Maria, this is why I voted you.
When we played together in the last DBZ game, the second flavor was brought up you said that there would be fakeclaims and that flavor meant nothing. When I tried to argue that some flavor was alignment indicative, you argued with me about it for pretty much the entirety of the very short game. Here, you didn't mention that flavor meant nothing until I reminded you that was the stance people were supposed to take, I don't really buy that "I'll participate in flavor discussion to get people off topic (but not mention how useless it is in the process!)" considering your hard stance in the last DBZ game - it looks more to me like you were just trying to be helpful and went against your credo from last game and that wouldn't happen unless your beliefs were fake.
I also didn't like your interactions with me - the "now who can't read!! wait, why are you voting me? oh i meant to say you can't read me" exchange in particular feels underwhelming, unnatural and while I realize this might not necessarily be alignment indicative because I don't know if you're this awkward in exchanges in general, I can very easily see you as scum not knowing how to approach me while as town you've had absolutely no problems in the past because genuine emotion has prodded you before.

And with that, I need to leave for work. I'll be back briefly in the morning.

[Imperium]

UNVOTE:

Not entirely comfortable with a Maria lynch right now, especially from what I've skimmed of her reaction to nacho's vote and lately. I need to talk to nacho, and I doubt very seriously he's read through what's transpired since last night. I'm sorry I've been gone all week, but I've had a hell of a week and am 20 pages behind. I'm getting ready to walk out the door, so I won't be around tonight, but I will tomorrow morning when I get home.

Hopefully I'll be all caught up and nacho will too.

[Imperium]

Vote: MariaR

Talked with Tammy, ready to take the leap. More later.

[Imperium]

tammy's maria unvote dropped imp from my town list

Can you explain where you think that is unvoting when we've been constantly saying that we weren't ready for a lynch yet is unreasonable?

[Imperium]

Maria, my biggest problem is that I see a lack of emotional engagement in any of the pushes you've made - they are all lackluster and none of them looks like an attempt to find scum.

You've voted Desperado for his vote on you then let it go, you voted Majiffy briefly (and still suspect him) because his almost vote was lackluster and then Socrates for his vote on you.

And it extends past your pushes to your townreads, there's no players who you're strongly protecting or believing in or latching onto, and there's nothing that's happened that's compelled you to push back or stick your neck out in any way at all.

There's nothing to latch onto in your play. You made the argument that you caring less is a town tell of yours, which makes sense as a general tell for someone who prefers scum, but as a townie who is around in thread chances are that something will grab you or get you engaged unless you're just not around while your play as scum (let Clumsy get mislynched today, soft defend them but don't make too many waves otherwise) is a much more accessible narrative.

[Imperium]

I don't like the asking for a vote count and threatening to self-vote; oftentimes the reason self votes happen are because someone is in a bit of a compromised emotional state and they do something silly but instead you made sure to ask for a vote count first, then didn't follow through...? All in all, it's a strange sequence of events that I don't buy as genuine.

[Imperium]

I don't like the interactions with us - we are voting you, you don't try to determine our alignment via our vote on you and you don't seem to have any reason to be strong townreading us and yet you're appealing to us and telling us that we're reading you wrong instead of pushing back, and that seems unnatural.

I don't like the flavor thing, you took a very strong stance in DBZ last game and here you took a radically different one until I called you out on it and then you tried to work in "USELESS" after the fact. This is probably the least significant of my concerns.

[Imperium]

tammy's maria unvote dropped imp from my town list

Can you explain where you think that is unvoting when we've been constantly saying that we weren't ready for a lynch yet is unreasonable?

maria wasn't in danger of being lynched and with you putting the vote right back there I'm just kinda sitting here scratching my head

I don't think for one second that the person who pointed out to Arthur in Laundry mafia that I practically make waffling an art form would be scratching his head over me unvoting when I'm behind and haven't had a chance to process the reaction to our slot's vote. I don't think that you go oh herr derr their no longer a town read after the amount of thought we have put into the game because I, of all people, don't want a lynch to go through over night and need to catch up.

I'd like for you to explain that like I'm five because from where I'm sitting it's disingenuous bullshit.

Maria said she was self-voting last night, if she did that she would be at L-1, no way I want a wagon sitting at L-1 over night before I have a chance of catching up and talking to nacho. Nacho and I talked this morning when he got off work, Maria didn't self vote like she said she was going to, hence no danger of the lynch scenario before I could start catching up and being around, and we're fine with Maria flipping.

~~~

In other news I'm going to start catching up now. I have a couple hours before I have to be somewhere but I'm the world's slowest reader and I have some grading to do, so I'm going to try to get through this week's posts as quickly as I can. If I miss something or misinterpret something due to that, I'm sorry.

[Imperium]

I'm been lynched as town more times than I can count and I've never been lynched day 1 as scum and I am really trying to understand what I do as scum that makes me immune but as town I'm in ml city
Pedit: Hi hydra thing what's your read on me

Nacho, thoughts on this post please? ^

I'm not Nacho, and maybe he'll have a chance to answer this later. I'll point it out to him this afternoon.

I'll give you my thoughts on this post when I catch up as I'd like to actually read this in context and as a whole.

[Imperium]

I didn't self vote sue me x)

Well you not self-voting makes the whole thing look like ate instead of town frustration. (What most people regard as ate is just people expressing their frustration or having an emotional response to the game itself.) But the fact that you asked for a vote count and said you were going to self vote after getting the vote count is what makes it look calculated and makes everything else look like ate.

Most of the time townies self vote when they're frustrated in the moment and it's an emotional response, typically there you're not going to ask for a vote count because if you have the presence of mind for that then you're not frustrated where you think all is lost. Sometimes townies self vote at deadline to avoid a no lynch. But scum self vote to make it look like they're frustrated or like they don't care if they're lynched, in that case they do care where they are on the train because they're trying to come across town.

[Imperium]

I don't think for one second that the person who pointed out to Arthur in Laundry mafia that I practically make waffling an art form would be scratching his head over me unvoting when I'm behind and haven't had a chance to process the reaction to our slot's vote. I don't think that you go oh herr derr their no longer a town read after the amount of thought we have put into the game because I, of all people, don't want a lynch to go through over night and need to catch up.

I'd like for you to explain that like I'm five because from where I'm sitting it's disingenuous bullshit.

Maria said she was self-voting last night, if she did that she would be at L-1, no way I want a wagon sitting at L-1 over night before I have a chance of catching up and talking to nacho. Nacho and I talked this morning when he got off work, Maria didn't self vote like she said she was going to, hence no danger of the lynch scenario before I could start catching up and being around, and we're fine with Maria flipping.

it was more that you unvoted without talking to nacho or having read.

you said you skimmed and you weren't comfortable with the vote anymore because of maria's reaction, but now after discussing with nacho maria's reaction is the reason you're voting there again?

there was no indication it was strictly because you weren't ready for a lynch

Yes, I unvoted because I did not want a lynch. Yes, I unvoted because I skimmed maria's reaction and had doubts. No, I had not talked to nacho about the game before this morning. I knew why he voted maria and we had discussed that earlier in the week, but he had not read her reaction to his vote and we had not talked about it. Not sure why me inviting without talking to nacho is problematic. He's not a dictator or anything. We have equal veto power over each other. I do know without talking to him that he wouldn't want a lynch to go through before we both had a chance to catch up. He's said that already.

Do either of us think that maria is flipping scum 100%, nope. But we have enough problems with her play that we think it's entirely likely. Some of the reactions I liked, he didn't like and didn't think it made sense with previous past game or this game behavior. We both think that she has a hell of a higher likelier chance of flipping scum than clumsy does though, so here we are. If I find something magical as I catch up then I'll deal with that then, but here we are.

[Imperium]

so the reason i'm confused is that maria threatened to self vote and then didn't do it before you unvoted

Spoiler: all this happened before you unvoted

Give me a vote count and I'm self voting I have nothing else to say I'm town my flavor is ASAI I'm one of freeze's men who warn him a unit is going I'm clearly forever going to be lynchbait as town and I'd rather die now while we have mling I do think clum is town

Are you challenging me to spam Gin you little fuck I will do it

I was blessed with mod powers, WHATS UP.

but plz no spam
~Gin~

Do not challenge me in the art of trolling

Btw if it isn't obv enough I'm a VT

Me saying things like oh another game where I get lynched d1 as town is just fact because it happens a shit ton I've never been lynched d1 as scum and it isn't gonna happen this game either cause I flipped town N don't know how to stop it I'm easy to lynch as town and not as scum *shrug* I don't mind lynching myself so town can wake up and see that scum are driving the wagons that were both on town I think Clum slot is town and shouldn't be lynched tomorrow it's very clear
Pedit: Already claimed

TYWIN I RECHECKED MY ROLE PM MANY TIMES I KNOW LMFAO
Yes I'm one of freeza's men who tries to warn him

But Socrates is town though and your vote on him sucks

Coming from someone I think is scum with him you must understand I hold your opinion at little value

Wonder why he's doing that hm....Because scum want proof with anything they're doing DUH CAN WE LYNCH THE OBV SCUM? No no I'm getting lynched? k

I'm so glad were playing "compare game A to game B" cause that's gonna get us the right result boy gee what a good game of mafia were having

I'm so glad were playing "compare game A to game B" cause that's gonna get us the right result boy gee what a good game of mafia were having

I don't want to be smug, but isn't this better than "Hi, Maria", "Hi, Fire", "What's up?", "Nothing.", "I'm not feeling good", "Need a hug?" kind of posting?

I mean not really both are very useless 1 just leads to wrong results more.

I have not actually read a post in this game since the last post I made last Saturday night. I haven't even read nacho's iso dives that he asked me to on Wednesday because I've had shit for time this week. Nacho said I wouldn't be able to be here until Saturday and asked for time. Last night I skimmed maria's response, doubted, saw she mentioned self-voting and that would have put her at l-1, unvoted, left the house, woke up this morning saw she didn't self-vote, talked to nacho where we discussed our doubts and concerns, nacho revoted, and here I am.

I could tell you what I had for breakfast but damn man what kind of grand plan are you trying to suggest was at play here?

[Imperium]

Tammy talk to me about stuffs ;~;

Tammy can you give me a rawr? I heard you gave those kind of things.

Hopefully when I catch up I'll have stuffs to talk about.

Also, RAWR!

[Imperium]

It's a problem for what I think you're alignment is, yes.

[Imperium]

I don't think that's a natural thought process to have.

Can you explain what our master grand plan was for unvoting than revoting. Why didn't our unvote make sense in context?

[Imperium]

because you hadn't actually read anything, there was no immediate danger of a lynch, maria had already not done what she had threatened to do and your unvote easily could have caused the wagon to stall out (see: abr's unvote)

and if you'd like to explain why me being wary of your unvote and downgrading the strength of my townread on you is scum motivated now would be a great time

Okay you know what, right now I'm stepping away from this conversation because legit my iq has dropped ten points.

Are you literally getting after me for not having esp that maria was not going to self-vote, when I knew the five minutes that I had to skim the game when I skimmed and unvoted was the only damn time I'd have until this morning right now when I'm here to join in on this lovely dumb ass conversation I think you're too smart to be having with me? That somehow some way I knew that she wouldn't do what she said she'd do? I would rather be safe, get the fuck caught up, make sure my vote is where I actually want it to be, then leave it there over night and risk a lynch when I wake up.

Got it? Good. If not, lay off the fucking pipe.

And what the hell do you think RIGHT NOW means?

I do not think that someone who has experience with either of us thinks there was anything wrong with me inviting when I did, for the reason I did. I think that it's weird. I don't think it's natural for you to do.

I don't think it's natural for you to quote her iso from the point and continue on this dumb ass line of questioning. I don't think it's natural for you, of all people, to do a down grade over something small. In Laundry mafia you were so certain that nacho!scum was town that even though I was telling you that the way nacho interacted with me never happens when he's town, that he was behaving just like he did in the previous game where he was scum, even though I read nacho way better and more consistently than pretty much everyone else, you told me that my read blew chunks. So, you'll have to forgive me that when nacho is posting in his very regular town matter, looking at the game in the way he does as town and you should very well know that, that you decide derp tammy wants to catch up and is doubting someone's reaction gee wilikers that might mean something.

[Imperium]

as if me seeing you unvote my lynch for specious reasons just as the wagon was beginning to coalesce couldn't possibly look like a scumbuddy getting cold feet

nope, not possible. your towniness is unimpeachable.

Oh the lame ass cold feet accusation. Well by all means carry on with that dumb assness.

By the way anybody with any experience and talent as scum doesn't get cold feet. I suck as scum but if I'm going to bus a buddy, I don't get cold feet.

(My postulation was that you were going to say just this. And my postulation to nacho this morning was that you were her scum buddy who were trying to tie us to Maria. Fancy that.)

[Imperium]

Maria, vote with me. Let's push this one together.

VOTE: Clum you got it boss

Maria why did you sheep ABR here?

(Early game I thought you guys were masons, which is why I asked if you guys were close, so at the time I didn't think anything of it. But when I asked if you were close, you said you wished you were because he is so cool. Have you guys played together before, talked on chat, etc?)

[Imperium]

Yes, for the fifteenth thousand time, I read maria's reaction and started to doubt, wanted to talk to nacho, saw she threatened to self vote, it would put her at l-1 which would leave her in hammer range. I did not want her in hammer range when I could not be around and had not caught up or talked to nacho.

I feel like that should be obvious. Seriously if you don't understand, the fault is not mine. Stop smoking.

It has to do with what I expect of your behavior and reads. The other game is relevant because your original read was so strong that even though I was pointing out things that were actually really alignment relevant, i.e. his interaction with me, it did not deter the strength of your read at all.

See I do not think that you find it problematic that me, not having read, starting to doubt due to skimming a reaction, not wanting a lynch to happen over night before I can catch up, invites.

And I don't think you are lacking the mental capacity to understand what is a really obvious explanation.

[Imperium]

Are you literally getting after me for not having esp that maria was not going to self-vote

and just for the record, no, i am not literally going after you

i literally dropped you from the top half of my town list to the bottom half

getting after and going after are two different things.

You are chiding me for not having esp. You are getting after me for not somehow knowing she was not going to self-vote.

[Imperium]

i think ive demonstrated a pretty clear understanding, i just don't think it tracks with what actually happened.

Well you're on crack.

[Imperium]

Not Chara - Are you leaning town on Vifam still? Can you talk about that read?

[Imperium]

Or if you have just ignore me, I'll probably get to it soon.

[Imperium]

Majiffy is scum reading Tywin for play style/personality tells that aren't necessarily alignment indicative. Some people are wordy. Hi! How ya doin? I get this complaint against me from people who don't know me (and some who do) because I work out my thought process when I write. It comes out wordy and it looks like I'm saying a lot to say nothing unless you actually read and process what I'm writing. Others also tend to have some fluffiness to them, it comes with being active and getting all thoughts out there.

I'd be really surprised if Tywin's big scum play was to describe his scum play and then be so cheeky as to play scum while describing it. Does that make sense? Now while I wouldn't put it past someone like Fate or some other players to be cheeky like that, I don't see it in Tywin.

[Imperium]

I'm not sure what to make of Majiffy's alignment from that though. Nacho said that he looked like he believed his case on Tywin, but he wasn't sure of his alignment either. I know that Majiffy can, as scum, make cases that he looks like he believes and be as bullheaded as he was about this one, so I don't know.

[Imperium]

Alisae - Why did you immediately call Tywin tunneled in the majiffy/tywin showdown, but not majiffy?

[Imperium]

I literally don't care about anything to do with majiffy, alisae or tywin. I could be convinced to vote Almost50 or Imperium but I like my vote right now.

I always find it amusing when one person has a pretty good ability to read the other and the other just doesn't at all.

I don't want to discuss Imperium until I have quality alone time with Nacho

At first blush, I liked this post. I think that a town!Majiffy would want to talk to nacho. My concern here is that Majiffy usually just goes lurkercho is scum cho, even though that's not the case. I'm not sure if Nacho talked about his new work hours yet or reiterated him not being here but I guess I'd have expected a little more flak from majiffy than this and the being concerned that our reads were different.

I might be projecting.

[Imperium]

Not sure. Played lots of sports growing up, I've done martial arts for years and years. Competitions even, world level. But as soon as I step off the mat/floor, I'm clumsy as all hell. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

White chocolate yes

The worst kind of chocolate!

VOTE: Tywin

Maria is now my TOP SCUM READ. No way TOWN!Maria would sneak in a THIRD vote on Tywin while making it look like a joke. We are waaaaay out of RVS, so "slipping a vote while nobody's looking" is an explicit scum move.

VOTE: MariaR

This confuses me. Did you think that Maria thought she was getting by a serious vote on someone because they didn't like white chocolate? What do you think scum!maria thought she was doing here?

(I have in the middle of a game, not in rvs, joke voted someone for something they've said. I don't get how this makes someone your top scum read.)

[Imperium]

Maria - What's your homesite?

[Imperium]

Right, where you played mafia. You said your town game is strong there, and I was wondering what that site was. Mostly if I was familiar with it and the play style to come out of it, and if it would help me in reading you.

[Imperium]

in case you aren't groking that Maria says I'm scum because I've played with her enough to know what her tendencies are as town and scum but almost is wrong because her meta is too varied to be able to identify tendencies

This doesn't make her scum.

[Imperium]

some weird votes going willy nilly,

Jokey votes, my friend. Did Maria place any votes "jokingly" in WWE?

Also, you've just missed the change her tone. She averted to a "you don't think I would take into account that you just played a game with me as scum and change my play?", which is an implicit admission that her play here is the same as hers in the Scum game I referred you to already. I mean, SHE CONCEDES that this is the same play, and you cannot see it??

How many scum and town games do you have experience with Maria in?

[Imperium]

I disagree with your logic on almost but let's put it into logic for a second:

Someone who has played what is it 4 or 3 games with me I expect to know more about me vs someone who died and didn't get to interact and play with me who do you think I'm gonna be more strict on

no that isn't what happened

you said I'm scum because I should know you don't care when you're town. disregarding the fact that this sort of meta is irrelevant to me, you then told almost that his meta based read in you was bunk because you have too many different playstyles to build a proper meta read.

these are diametrically opposed thought processes and I don't believe you made both of these arguments as town.

Well one is a general attitude approach. Care more as one alignment than the other and that shows.

The other references more specific behaviors.

So yes, some contradiction there but not th pie slam dunk you're making it be. I remembered once being town and trying to dispell some of red coyotes meta concerns about me which ended up with me contradicting myself about my own meta and just making the both of us more confused and frustrated.

Maria has done some legitimately scummy stuff but I'm side-eyeing some of the stuff that's been thrown at her.

[Imperium]

I'm probably going to head out here soon, but I will get completely caught up today.

I'll be picking up from 38 when I get back or while out as much as I can.

I still like my townrwads on not chara and tywin as well as our leaning town reads on alisae and almost and abr. If abr is scum here, he really likes his scum team I'd wager. That's my only caveat about that and it's only there because I don't feel grand about the gamestate and he's a read I feel better able to be confident in as the game goes in or after a scum flip.

I had something else to say but I've forgotten :/

[Imperium]

Oh I remember I think that almost just recently seeing Maria's scum game, which I'm guessing she won, has made almost paranoid and seeing everything Maria does as an extension of Maria's last game.

[Imperium]

Alisae: I'm obv exaggerating a bit about the Pine game for point of reference, but he was scum and town ignored him to tunnel others. This is how I see Majiff in this game.

Majiffy is someone I will talk about when I've caught up.

[Imperium]

Oh I remember I think that almost just recently seeing Maria's scum game, which I'm guessing she won, has made almost paranoid and seeing everything Maria does as an extension of Maria's last game.

False assumption, I regretfully say. It was a special mechanics game and I bonded myself to Nahdia who was Maria's Scum p. In other words, I was SCUM myself, although I had to die as soon as I bonded with Nahdia. My win com was for Nahdia to end game AND Scum to win, so essentially I was happy Maria won that game.

Your alignment in the other game doesn't impact how I think you're viewing Maria in this game. It looks to me that you're looking at everything she does in this game as an extension of that game. It gets hard to separate some times.

I wouldn't really trust ABR's read on Majiffy though; I think Majiffy is the type of player that ABR would just naturally town read. He pushes cases and reads strongly, and I think that ABR would appreciate that. But he mocks and pushes cases using mostly just sophistry regardless of alignment, so. Nacho isn't certain of his alignment and he's the only person I'd trust to be able to know if Majiffy is playing his town game here.

[Imperium]

By the way, unless there is some kind of meta-history of Nacho mis-reading Majif, Scum!Majif would only want to directly play chicken with him if they were scumbuddies.

If I'm ballsy enough to say that to Nacho, then Majiffy sure as shit is. He once killed off all the people town reading him, and left me and another player alive who had been town reading each other all game long stunning the dead thread and his partners because I was super obviously town, and tried to make a case on me for bussing Nacho because he just thought he could get me lynched. I can't imagine him quaking with fear over anyone.

[Imperium]

Imperium hasn't seemed to do much, this day, sidelining pretty hard. If we -assume- Imperium is scum, it would make sense for them to be sidelining so much if the two main wagons, this hydra and Maria are town. Although I haven't played with them before, so I don't know if this is normal.
-Clumsy

Where are we sidelining? And what the heck is that. I think a lot of people are throwing out words this game while having no idea what they're actually saying.

[Imperium]

Who did Clum claim I didn't see I know quite a bit on DBZ so I can judge

He's made a case on Tywin and has pushed that read.

[Imperium]

Zefiend:

@Imperium,

If it were anyone else then I'd probably be right by your side lynching Majiffy but unfortunately it's not and Majiffy is prone to exaggeration and exaggeration and more exaggeration.

Why is exaggeration an excuse for bad pushes?

The quoting is messing up on me, but exaggeration isn't an excuse for bad pushes and Nacho wasn't saying that. What he was saying is that if it were anyone but Majiffy, he'd be lynching him. Majiffy is prone to a lot of exaggerations even as town, therefore it's not a scum tell when it comes from Majiffy.

[Imperium]

Who did Clum claim I didn't see I know quite a bit on DBZ so I can judge

He's made a case on Tywin and has pushed that read.

I see. Point taken. Thank you.

I'll tell you a little secret though, my back pocket scum team consists of socrates, majiffy and abr, and that's why for the town read.

[Imperium]

Nope you lost it Majiffy. I was convinced your case was going to work though. In the end, his town read on me won out.

Also, this might be a little silly, but as desperado and I were arguing a bit, we both mentioned that we thought each other's actions looked partnerish to Maria. I expected an admonishment from maria about how we were both stupid because she was flipping town. She didn't say anything though.

[Imperium]

I'm almost caught up! On page 47, and now I'm actually getting ready to head out. Thought I was before but ended up getting delayed because some people are slow. So I will finish catching up later, and talking about everyone. It wasn't just a I'll talk about Majiffy thing.

[Imperium]

Spoiler:

Who did Clum claim I didn't see I know quite a bit on DBZ so I can judge

All caught up now. If I get prodded again, I promise to replace out.

I don't agree with the Clumsy lynch. I've said from the start that it seemed like low-hanging fruit, and Tywin made a great point about the lack of formation of a counter-wagon. I don't think the Maria wagon qualifies because of the nature of its formation. A few people independently making points about self-meta, scum-meta, and her generally bad posting from this game. It wasn't a fast pile-up. Also, of the "side-liners" consisting of {Me, Desperado, and Vifam} none of us came in and jumped onto any wagon. If anything, I think that that says that between Maria/Clumsy, Maria is more likely to be scum.

The problem of course, is that Majiffy just voted Maria. A lot has transpired since the Tywin v. Majiffy fight and a couple vets have given their input. ABR thinks its an ego clash, while Almost thinks that Majiffy was just exaggerating truths. I still am heavily on Tywin's side in the argument, but in light of everything that's happened since, I've softened my suspicions on Majiffy. Originally I thought that he has OMGUS'ing hard with very bad logic and shade. Now I can buy the reasoning that Majiffy is just an over-explosive defensive player. I thought that Tywin completely dismantled Majiffy's arguments in #679 and there wasn't a whole lot more for me to add. Unfortunately at the time, nobody else was taking Tywin's side and the Majiffy wagon crumbled. I'm still trying to figure out why. If Majiffy is scum, then his partners were hoping to ride out the 1v1 without needing to bus. If Majiffy is town, then scum were looking for a way to insert themselves on the wagon carefully, and never found a good opportunity. As to those shading me about lack of input (@Not Chara @Clumsy) I'll remind you that I was the first person to actually make an independent case-point on Majiffy

and

I actually took a stance on the 1v1 instead of just saying something to the effect of "meh, looks TvT," despite there being a mountain of content to sort through.

@Desperado, what do you think about the ABR-Maria dynamic? You found ABR scummy, Maria was sheeping ABR, then you had a squab with Maria, now ABR is fine with lynching Maria. Surely you have an opinion on all this?

@Imperium,

If it were anyone else then I'd probably be right by your side lynching Majiffy but unfortunately it's not and Majiffy is prone to exaggeration and exaggeration and more exaggeration.

Why is exaggeration an excuse for bad pushes?

If you ARE town then my suggestion is to stop worrying about what others think and worry about finding scum. This 'I'm always SR, poor me' approach sucks, and Socrates says you've used it as scum before. Since there's a precedent, idk why you think I (or anyone else) should just take your word for it here. It's contradictory to your own meta. So how can you use meta as an excuse for looking scummy when you've literally used that excuse as scum before? It invalidates the entire meta argument from the start, and so your posts (shaz side) look way worse in that light.

Maria: why didn't you vote Majiff before you became a wagon if you SR him previously?

ABR: I want Clumsy over Maria at the moment. I wanted Majiff but that's not happening, so I'm compromising to the other leading wagons, and I think Clumsy is a far better bet. Maria just doesn't have much for me to legitimately SR them for, and I don't like voting someone without that.

I've never played with Socrates before so that's a lie. and it's not meta it's a fact I've never been lynched d1 as scum and I've been lynched as town/vigged n1 more times then I can count.

I only started sring Majiff after his almost 50 vote.

Plus I still thought clum could be scum but the way this game is going I'm iffy

I'm surprised no one else has pointed this out. Maria can't be talking about Majiffy's first vote in #129 since she says in #187 that she doesn't have any reads. Then she had the weird sheep vote in #316, the OMGUS in #538, the Shaziro scumread in #740, the naked Tywin vote in #753, back to Desperado in #783 (explained in #792 as per

his

weird vote), and then gives a few town reads in #824.

Majiffy puts his vote back on Almost in #829, for seemingly the same reasons as he did in #129 (since no progression has happened in that read -- at least none that he's explained). Maria says she doesn't SR Almost in #830, but

doesn't mention that she finds Majiffy's vote bad or scummy

. Majiffy links her to his original naked vote in #129. ABR questions Maria's genuineness of a "thank you" when Maria admits she hasn't read the link. Then finally in #946, Maria lays her vote down on Majiffy, for a vote with equivalence to a vote made in post #129.

The timing is important here. In my opinion, this proves that Maria's motivations for voting are not genuine. Majiffy's Almost vote existed since near the start of the game, and he only returned to it after his 1v1 with Tywin dissipated. Maria claims that she only started scumreading Majiffy after his Almost vote, but she made 16 posts between that post and her vote for Majiffy.

Maria got some pressure from ABR and Almost but the Clumsy train took over again. Well, it's time to derail that and lynch scum. VOTE: Maria

I am caught up! I'm going to try to gather together my thoughts here, but I am fading so it's entirely possible I pass out. I am caught up though, so I'll finish my thoughts in the morning. I have not read every word of Tywin's posts though, so if I miss something and it's in there, redirect me. This is no slight against Tywin, but he does write a lot of works, which I also do not mind at all, but I was very far behind and would still be far behind if I'd read all of that. I think Tywin is town, so my interest was in gauging the reads on people outside of him. This is just to say I might have missed a thing or two.

First up - I'm sorry for the troubles people are going through, life is a bitch at times. Alisea, as someone who has experienced depression at times throughout my whole life, I am very sorry you're feeling the way you feel. Depression is a bitch and lies to you a lot. You aren't worthless but it's hard to see or know that when it gets in your brain. Forgetting papers doesn't make you worthless, it makes you human. Having to take summer courses sucks, but it also doesn't make you worthless. Also high school does not determine your whole life, and things do get better. You are worth it, no matter what it feels like right now.

Majiffy - You're not going to get that nice walk in the park holding hands and skipping you'd like to have with Nacho this day phase I doubt very seriously. But if we're both still alive tomorrow, I'm sure he'll be able to then. You made me laugh with that last post though and that is my biggest weakness.

Okay thoughts on actual game stuff coming up.

[Imperium]

I don't know why those posts were quoted.

In game content so can't delete the quotes but I put spoilers for ease of mobile users
~Gin~

[Imperium]

Still town read Tywin and NotChara, still town lean almost, abr and alisae. Wish I felt better about the game and my reads.

Talked to nacho a bit about the game before he went to work and if he'd have his druthers we'd be lynching Vifam today as that's probably the closest thing he has to an actual scum read, but also doesn't have a great case from what I can tell. Coasting and just not really doing anything to drive the game forward is what I gathered. He'd probably put it into better words. As for me, I just don't know. Could go either way.

Neither one of us feel completely confident on a Maria scum flip, but really that's the best we've got right now. While I do think that some of her reactions look like frustrated town, there have been a bunch of little things that add up. I didn't particularly like the admonishment about people talking about the dragon balls in the first five pages of the game. It looked like she thought it was a protown thing to complain about, but it didn't go anywhere, nobody was specifically called out for using it to avoid scum hunting - which is the thing it would be used for, and we weren't going to lynch anyone in the first five pages. I didn't understand the sheeping of ABR and what looked like some buddying of him early game. (Buddying is not a scum tell at all, but I was left a bit confused. Thought they were masons for a little bit until a couple posts looked un-mason like then expected game experience, so that just feels weird.) The flavor argument is inconsistent with past behavior as well. Nacho talked about this but in the previous game Maria shut down any conversation of flavor, even misunderstood what we were saying, to argue that flavor was irrelevant whereas here she was ready to help judge the flavor to be of help. This doesn't mean she's scum of course, people do change their notions, but she reverted to that when nacho called her out on it. And the asking for a vote count to self vote and then not self voting does bug me mainly because the frustration that I was reading somewhat townie feels more calculated when coupled with that.

I probably feel most comfortable with a Maria flip but really not sure that's actual scum there.

Oh ABR - I know it was nacho that you asked, but I said I'd answer from my point of view. You're probably not getting nacho to answer today. That's one of the types of posts that have me doubting that it's going to definitely be a scum flip. When nacho and I talked about it before, he said that that's actually one of a fellow players favorite thing to do when he is scum being wagoned and thinks that it doesn't really mesh with some of her other behaviors. (I think that's what he was referring to. We talked about it not long after I woke up and now I worry I'm getting things confused.)

Posting this here as I felt myself nod off a bit. Continue the rest in chunks. Oh Clumsy should be added to the town lean category I knew I was forgetting someone.