Mini 1942 - Switchboard 2 [Game Over]

[I Am Innocent]

Curious, did anyone play the first game?

I did. Not one of my better ones. 1 vs 1 with MOI (both town), self hammered as a #1 priority switch. Believe I was a hider.

Thankfully town not named MOI got there crap together and won.

[I Am Innocent]

EBWOP self hammered D1...

[I Am Innocent]

I'm gonna pass on the RV part of RVS and instead make.... A proposition.

I believe we should massclaim our priorities. That way the Switchboard Analyst can know who's doing the shenanigans out there.

Mine is 8.

Why would you claim prior to any discussion on this?

[I Am Innocent]

Okay, I understand your concerns, but hear me out.

The analyst sees EVERYTHING (regarding the switches anyway).
By claiming our priorities now, scum has no opportunity to lie.
That means scummy toggle behavior (i;e switching off a claimed JK) cannot be done anonymously. Scum then has to choose between trying to give them a night advantage, or not being found out immediately.

Of course, this also means that the analyst should not claim until the last possible moment. And that special care should be taken to ensure that the rolecop remains OFF. Forever.

The analyst can see EVERYTHING once, in the entire game.

The way I read that is they would get a list of numbers and on/off for each of them. as you said, once per game.

[I Am Innocent]

I won't deny that. I just don't think our best move is to let them know who the top priority players are. It puts our PR's at risk. By keeping it hidden, it lets appropriate town players (read: vanilla) try and draw the night kills. Knowing the priority numbers, scum can just start picking off people higher than them until they have the upper hand.

Priority numbers don't correlate with PRs though.
If anything, I'd expect more PRs in the low priority for balance purposes, but that's purely speculation.

And while you're right in that scum may try to pick off the high priorities.... We've got a Tracker, Watcher, and JK here. With even a single one of them turned on scum's gonna have problems not being caught if they go that route.

I believe this is a low risk high reward scenario for Town.
Only scum should be scared

I never said they correlated. But if scum just picks off people above their highest priority, they can start turning off roles and agin the upper hand.

That's what our PRs are for. JK protects high priority, except PR claims. Watcher observes high priority targets, especially a PR that the JK won't be protecting. Tracker just does their thing.
Picking off high priorities is not a sustainable tactic for scum.

This has me thinking:

mod, do roles such as JK or RBer block only other roles, or switch attempts too?

I think last game I and MOI debated on forcing everybody to switch "on" the person above them in the player list (top player on the list then does the player on the bottom).

Positive side is all town power roles would be turned on (or scum risks getting caught if not), down side is scum roles are too. I personally think that is a risk worth taking though, depending on the answer the mod gives. If RBer does affect switch attempts too, I'd take back this recommendation tho.

[I Am Innocent]

Questions to anyone,

Mod too

, who may know the answer to these:

1) Can players toggle AND perform actions in the same night?

2) Can a player toggle their own switch?

EX. If player X is the roleblocker and he/she begins the game switched off....N1 could player X say Toggle:On player X and in the same night then roleblock another player (depending on the answer to question 1)

3) Are there any duplicates of priority numbers or does everyone have a unique number between 1-13? I assume everyone is unique.



Also...while I'm typically against early (D1 or D2) unnecessary claims, is there any reason not to full claim out of the starting block?

If we are assuming the roles listed are all in the game...then we could reduce our scum pool to 3 out of 7 (barring counterclaims which would be great on D1 as well). 3 out of 7 sounds much better than 3 out of 13 and it also prevents the claimed PRs from targeting each other. Instead focusing their abilities on the smaller pool of scum candidates.

Putting this out there for dicussion....so please don't jump to claim a PR unless a consensus thinks it's a good idea.

And the claims could just be generic such as "I'm a town PR" to make it a little more difficult for scum to nk specific PRs.

From memory of the last game:

1) Yes
2) No
EX) if you are turned on during the night it would affect ur ability to use it N2, not N1. If you start in the off position ur out of luck N1.
3) Unique

Full claim gives scum a ton of information. Getting someone to L-1 and claiming still gives us a great shot without divulging as much information. Say they are a power role. If lying, real power role claims and we get scum with only 1 claim. If vanilla claim, you got a 3 in 7 chance of hitting scum with no outted power roles. I get the point about power roles having a smaller pool as well to target, but considering half of them are probably on no right now, I'd probably still lean no D1.

[I Am Innocent]

vote chickadee

Felt like there was some rolefishing earlier in post 46, and post 71 felt off to me.

[I Am Innocent]

Thanks.

[I Am Innocent]

vote chickadee

Felt like there was some rolefishing earlier in post 46, and post 71 felt off to me.

I don't even know how you could logically make it to this train of thought.

I'm not sure which part you are referring to but the irony below, well yeah.

It's been gone over. It's in the PMs. Oh my god, it's like no one is reading the information given to us.

I'm still curious about the scum night kill, but Realeo, what prompted you to look for that?

[I Am Innocent]

Never mind I feel like an idiot.

[I Am Innocent]

Post 46 was in reference to his "no scum kill" not his looking into the "switch analyst" role...doh

[I Am Innocent]

So care to remove that vote now?

Nah still not liking how far you had to go out of your way to defend a player you find null.

Moza, Keychain is fairly new. She's finding her bearings. I still have her as null, but I really think we need to give her time to develop to better read her.

My last experience playing with her seems similar to the experience you're having now. If she is town, and she can point herself in the right direction, she'll be great. She really has potential. If she's scum, I think we'll see it fairly soon.

Have you played with this player when they've been town and scum?

[I Am Innocent]

Have you played with this player when they've been town and scum?

No, but I spent a whole game hard scum reading her when she was town. We were both town, and both just tunneled on each other.

So if you've never seen her scum game, why are you so confident if she's scum that "I think we'll see it fairly soon."

Moza, Keychain is fairly new. She's finding her bearings. I still have her as null, but I really think we need to give her time to develop to better read her.

My last experience playing with her seems similar to the experience you're having now. If she is town, and she can point herself in the right direction, she'll be great. She really has potential. If she's scum, I think we'll see it fairly soon.

[I Am Innocent]

Would you not agree that speculating about the setup is part of the game, and that furthermore people's stances and their justification for them on issues such as revealing information may contribute towards scumhunting?

If this is the case then why would you want to stifle such discussion?

All we're doing is giving scum more information when we start speculating and outing information. I can see how people would come to these conclusions, but it's not helpful to town.

And no, I would not say that setup speculation is necessarily part of the game. It's a social deduction game. Deduce, socially. Everyone now-a-days just wants to come in, break the set up and rig the game. And thats why towns suck on this site. No one actually wants to play mafia. Everyone just wants to be a quarterback.

No talking about setup spec when trying to guide switches or discuss a mass claim is critical to ensuring that we aren't just doing things willy nilly and possibly screwing up. Yes there is the danger of giving info to scum, but from my experience a team of a few scum outside the newbie forum usually gets it anyway.

On the flip side, I do get nervous when the majority of the conversation is on setup spec, as it allows scum to hide behind discussing it and not forced to fake game play. I'm a few pages behind but at some point an ISO of each player over the first X pages to see who is doing this may give some clues to who is scum.

And I would argue that I'm nit stifling discussion. I'm trying to get y'all to actually look at player interactions and what people are saying.

I have not seen you point out any player interactions to this point. What have I missed?

[I Am Innocent]

I don't think the claim idea is a good one, too risky and too advantageous for scum, our Power Roles are valuable for us working information out later in the game.

Also I feel there is a flaw in Fitz's logic:

Town is at a disadvantage in that they have an 8% chance (1 in 12) of voting scum D1.
Town PRs are at a disadvantage in that they have a 9% chance (1 in 11) of targeting scum at night if D1 ends in a mislynch...which only improves to 10% chance of targeting scum with a D1 scum lynch.

These odds are assuming random targets, if we scumhunt effectively these can be reduced a fair bit and not appear so bad. I appreciate that the same principle applies to the odds post-mass claim, however the basis of the idea is that our odds of hitting scum today are crap, when I would contend that.

Actually involves flawed math too Town has a 25% chance of voting scum D1 (3 scum in pool of 12 other players).

I still think the math works out to 3 outta 7 if we ensure the lynchee gets a chance to claim, so I disagree the mass claim is the best idea D1.

[I Am Innocent]

votes off chick please shes town.

Reasons please.

[I Am Innocent]

Reasons please.

already gave them page 1 (?) when i formed my townbloc when people started discussing "the plan".

chick and realeo prob town. both quick to respond, seem honest.
four town, nine to go!

Yeah sorry this doesn't cut it for me.

[I Am Innocent]

Let me give you some advice...if someone isn't posting a lot of content (nor really making any hard stances) and letting a day or days slide by w/o word, chances are that person is a lurking mafia member.

This.

[I Am Innocent]

So to tidy it all up a bit, my reads:

(not in order, very provisional)

Moz, Chick, Radical, rayo, Realo,
Scum in: Former, Nos, Allo, Mollig,
Neutral: IAI,Fitz,Aubrey,Keychain

u scum with IAI?

So what changed between these posts regarding your read on me?

[I Am Innocent]

Frankly Fitz and Rat are my two strongest town leans right now. Rat right out the gate said something pretty foolish that I find hard to believe coming out of a scums finger tips. My belief is even stronger now knowing that they have day talk. Fitz (meta) tends to just poke things with a stick and ask pointless questions in order to allude the impression of "

Look at me, I'm town doing town things.

" Him going VLA and doing walls of content catchup is his usual though I believe. Regardless, the fact that nobody but myself supported his idea fully makes me think that it came from a town perspective more than likely. If this was a scum tactic to F the town over, more than just myself would have been in support mode to his notion I would think. I don't count Realeo into the equation since he was onboard and quickly backtracked out of it rather quickly.

I need to shuffle through the game again. I've bee more concerned with the spec crap than actually looking at what people are doing and defending myself.

@IAI: do you read and just comment as you go, or do you read everything then comment?

Agree on Fitz and Rat.

As for your question, it usually depends how far behind I am. If there's been less than a page of post, I'm more likely to read and comment at once. But that is usually not the case so I more typically read and comment as I go. Why do you ask?

[I Am Innocent]

Have you played with this player when they've been town and scum?

No, but I spent a whole game hard scum reading her when she was town. We were both town, and both just tunneled on each other.

So if you've never seen her scum game, why are you so confident if she's scum that "I think we'll see it fairly soon."

Moza, Keychain is fairly new. She's finding her bearings. I still have her as null, but I really think we need to give her time to develop to better read her.

My last experience playing with her seems similar to the experience you're having now. If she is town, and she can point herself in the right direction, she'll be great. She really has potential. If she's scum, I think we'll see it fairly soon.

Lets call it gut. And the fact that she's new.

I'm calling BS. Pressure is good. Why defend a null player when you've never seen her scum game, especially since I don't recall her being at that point in danger of being even close to having enough votes to be lynched. Either scum protecting a teammate or scum buddying/whiteknighting/pocketing/whatever the cool term is these days a townie.

Either way it points at you being scum.

And I would argue that I'm nit stifling discussion. I'm trying to get y'all to actually look at player interactions and what people are saying.

I have not seen you point out any player interactions to this point. What have I missed?

Oh, so monkey see monkey do? I suppose telling telling y'all to move on isn't enough.

And setup spec is not helpful when we have 9 pages of it and nothing else.

So when you were telling us to look at player interactions and what people are saying, you hadn't indeed noticed anything yourself?

[I Am Innocent]

it looks a little like you are simply going after easy targets and saying they are lurking instead of actually trying to build cases on people.

i'm always up for punishing the lurkers, especially ealr yon. Always a decent chanc eof hitting scum.
I moved IAI cos his questions to Chick sounded like BS.

Let's discuss then. you first, what was BS in your mind?

[I Am Innocent]

Moza, I have to agree with what people are pointing out. Your reads look super lazy. And your jump from putting me in town, then null, and now possible scum is an interesting progression to say the least.

You've had a lot of "interesting progressions" this game.

VOTE: Mozamis

Interesting.

[I Am Innocent]

Your reads look super lazy.

reads wise, i have given out the most. They may not be right, but I've made a lot of effort.
And if i'm "lazy" why did i bother to change my read on you?

Why not explain your read change then?

[I Am Innocent]

I have Aubrey, Rat and Key as town. I'll keep Inno in my town lean pile.

Anyone have thoughts on FormerFish? I don't have enough there.

There's not enough on Fitz for me, so I'm not sure where that town read is coming from. Someone care to explain? I'll also go through their ISO. They're been on VLA so I don't really recall much from them.

Why is Key town?

Fitz and Rat were the two most animated as far as pushing thoughts on plans go. It's been said before, I don't see mafia trying to garner that much attention early on. Reason I like Nos too, his early antics were begging for votes, so prob not scum either.

[I Am Innocent]

I don't know what to tell you Into. You haven't really left me with questions. You're barking up the wrong tree though.

"I'm trying to get y'all to actually look at player interactions and what people are saying."

I read this as you saying you were seeing something in the thread but we were all ignoring it due to setup spec/plans. Was this not the case?

[I Am Innocent]

Moza, I have to agree with what people are pointing out. Your reads look super lazy. And your jump from putting me in town, then null, and now possible scum is an interesting progression to say the least.

You've had a lot of "interesting progressions" this game.

VOTE: Mozamis

Interesting.

Well it makes me feel better that only one of you are scum, now to figure out which one.

[I Am Innocent]

Realeo, why Key and mjollnir?

[I Am Innocent]

I've been following mostly on my phone, and with work crazy right now, I still don't have a chance for a full post to address the things I want to address. But regarding Fitz's last post, I can say there is something you are not considering that I don't feel comfortable bringing to the attention of the mafia team that you are overlooking. I'll be happy to share it post game, but I don't want to tell scum their optimal play. Best thing for us to do is ring up scummy people, and give them a chance to claim. If no CC, we just turned a scummy player into an IC and we can use that information to catch scum (who was pushing the scummy looking townie, etc).

But a full claim I do not support.

[I Am Innocent]

Regarding the Moz wagon, I liked the fact he was grouping people vocally regardless of how strong or weak the reasons were for most the game so far. If he is scum, he is playing in a style that is basically tying one arm behind his back, and making it harder on himself as the game progresses. He's also playing against the grain some I feel, and I like that. Town need to filter and game solve, scum need to stay alive and keep movement available. That is the basic gist of it all.

First of all his arm apparently isn't tied because his reads have flopped all game. Also reads list on their own are an easy way for scum to try to blend in and look like they are scumhunting. It's the reasons behind the reads that show if someone is scumhunting or just scum.

Case in point:

Moz's "read on me" so far is based on 1) my questions to Chick early on and 2) he has seen good scum play by me in the past. Forget the point that he later thought Chick was scum yet kept me in the scum pile. And #2 is strictly an appeal to fear tactic that scum use. "Hey guys, this guy is such a good scum player and nobody thinks he scum which means he must be. Let's vote him."

[I Am Innocent]

Mozamis' post 150 seems suspect given his quick willingness to out his priority.

Good point. Moz, can you please explain why priority claiming didn't really garner a second thought from you while role claiming you were so resistant to.

[I Am Innocent]

so your reads are formerfish?
quick breakdown, gut reads. So far you've provided a lot of info w/out analysis.

And as for Chick, I'm gonna bung in neutral. She's a pain in the arse, but pain- in- the- arses are so often town. However, i@ve played with her before,

and she's good at scum, so she IS capable of this level of involvement

.
Likwise wih Nos, rhough gut is tellling me he is town OMGUSing mw. I'm not entirely sure wqhy he doesnt like me, but he votes me inevery game we play. I think it's because i dared to tell him to post more when we were scum together once. My guess is his ego couldmnt handle that, and I'm now on hs blacklist lol
Whatver. He's still prob town tho. If we need an end dfay lurker lynch though, he could be a candidate, since he's a borderline troll.
IAI looks quite good, but he always does, so fuck knows.

Appeal to fear tactic * 2

[I Am Innocent]

so your reads are formerfish?
quick breakdown, gut reads. So far you've provided a lot of info w/out analysis.

And as for Chick, I'm gonna bung in neutral. She's a pain in the arse, but pain- in- the- arses are so often town. However, i@ve played with her before, and she's good at scum, so she IS capable of this level of involvement.
Likwise wih Nos, rhough gut is tellling me he is town OMGUSing mw. I'm not entirely sure wqhy he doesnt like me, but he votes me inevery game we play. I think it's because i dared to tell him to post more when we were scum together once. My guess is his ego couldmnt handle that, and I'm now on hs blacklist lol
Whatver. He's still prob town tho. If we need an end dfay lurker lynch though, he could be a candidate, since he's a borderline troll.
IAI looks quite good, but he always does, so fuck knows.

You also have only played with me as scum.

"once bitten, twice shy"?

Yet you didn't start this game out as shy on her.

[I Am Innocent]

He's still prob town tho. If we need an end dfay lurker lynch though, he could be a candidate, since he's a borderline troll.

?
If we need an end of day "lurker" lynch... we could lynch someone who is probably town... because you don't like how they play. And they also happen to be pushing you. This is such a scummy thing to say.

Agreed. Starting to feel better about Key and Chick, much worse about Moz.

[I Am Innocent]

I'm not entirely sure how I feel about the Mozamis wagon just yet. He is giving reads as he says sure, the reasoning on people he has eliminated from his scumsearch is worryingly weak, it's not necessarily a sign of guilt however it is easy to eliminate yourself from the possibility of voting for scumbuddies based on this whole giving yourself plausible deniability, and furthermore I would expect town to be suspicious of everyone, which is the opposite of what he is doing by townreading people for such minor reasoning and refusing my requests to look at them further and give an update on the townreads to see if he still classes them as town. Another mildly worrying thing about him is how willingly he was to read me as "very likely scum" for again fairly minor reasons from my point of view which seems to conflict somewhat with how easily she gave other people a "townlock" pass.

On the other hand he has moved people down when they do something he feels is scummy, an example being Chickadee. Maybe this is just his method of scumhunting and maybe he is just naturally quite black and white with his reads, he hasn't done anything contradictory just yet that I have seen so it all seems internally consistent, overall I'm keeping an eye on Mozamis as I have a sketchy feeling about him but don't feel right now he is scum.

Mozamis:

If you had to vote for someone right now, who would it be, and very importantly why?

Mjoll is moving to my town pile too.

[I Am Innocent]

@ IAI...my oversight. Correct...D1 town has 25% chance of hitting scum (3 out of 12). Still not as good as 50% with any PR claim counter claim combos we would surely get. Not sure whet you mean by "the math works out to 3 outta 7" though. Can you explain?

Assuming town never lies about it's role (in a setup like this I expect this to not be a problem), one of three things happen:

1) Vanilla town get's rung up and claims vanilla. We know he is either 1 of 4 vanilla town, or 1 of 3 scum hoping a vanilla claim gets him out of being lynched. 3 in 7 chance of hitting scum.
2) Vanilla power role get's rung up. He claims. No CC, and we don't lynch town. Lather, rinse, repeat. If scum CC, we got a 50/50 chance of hitting scum. (100% chance the following day if wrong)
3) Scum gets rung up. Claims Vanilla, same odds as #1 (3 outta 7)
4) Scum gets rung up, claims power role. Town CC, same odds as #2 (50/50, and 100% chance the following day if wrong)

Worst odds here are 3 outta 7, not 3 outta 12.

[I Am Innocent]

and I apparently can't count, lol. change first line to "one of four things happen:"

[I Am Innocent]

VOTE: Allomancer

Why is this? I just went through your ISO and I don't think you mentioned them a single time.

But regarding Fitz's last post, I can say there is something you are not considering that I don't feel comfortable bringing to the attention of the mafia team that you are overlooking. I'll be happy to share it post game, but I don't want to tell scum their optimal play.

Ughhhh. This sounds incredibly calculated and trying to please after the whole thing about whether it's anti-town or not to publicly state the flaws in a plan.
Plus I'm very aware that if you don't say what the problem you've identified is, it's too easy for scum to look at a protown strategy and be like "oh no we can't do that for unspecified reasons", and veto the plan with no explanation given whatsoever.

Realeo sounded genuine when he pointed out the flaws in whatever claiming strategy was being discussed at the time. This sounds much more artificial.

Do you really think Kunk made a setup that could broken? It's already been shown that scum making 2 CC's is not beneficial, I'm not ready to divulge further despite the shade you are throwing my way. I see this as more
fishing on your part.

Good feelings about Key gone again.

[I Am Innocent]

Mozamis:If you had to vote for someone right now, who would it be, and very importantly why?

i think i'm gonna vote for Formerfish.
1) He's been in my p.o.e pile since early on
2) He's catch up posts had no reads at all as far as i could see. Lot of info, questions, but tno real analysis/reads.

Allomancer is another possibility but he is posting very little, i'm worried that he is lynch bait.

Guy has the air of noob scum to me.
Worse case he isn't going to contribute much as town.
Happy with lynching him today.

VOTE ALLOMANCER

What changed between these posts, from him being lynch bait to having an air of noob scum?

[I Am Innocent]

IAI's p445 is bad. No reads, just set up spec. And even then it is "i cant talk about set up spec".
This is one of the strongest mafia players i have ever played with.
It's miles away from being good enough.
If we dont lynch Allo, we could do a lot worse than IAI.

Love how you turned up the heat just as I made this post lol:

Moza, I have to agree with what people are pointing out. Your reads look super lazy. And your jump from putting me in town, then null, and now possible scum is an interesting progression to say the least.

You've had a lot of "interesting progressions" this game.

VOTE: Mozamis

Interesting.

Well it makes me feel better that only one of you are scum, now to figure out which one.

[I Am Innocent]

Makes me doubt my Allo read more than of those on that wagon.

Yeah too many people on the Allo wagon that I too don't care to join.

And with that I'm caught up. Take it from scum's mouth themselves, Allo "is lynch bait". [post 419]

unvote Chick
vote Moz

[I Am Innocent]

I'm not BP either.

Not thrilled how moz ignored all my posts/questions. The fact that it has been near impossible to get his wagon above 3 votes tells me I'm on the right track. Still happy with my vote. Anyone not willing to vote moz I'd like to hear why.

[I Am Innocent]

Mozamis' post 150 seems suspect given his quick willingness to out his priority.

Good point. Moz, can you please explain why priority claiming didn't really garner a second thought from you while role claiming you were so resistant to.

.

[I Am Innocent]

Mozamis:If you had to vote for someone right now, who would it be, and very importantly why?

i think i'm gonna vote for Formerfish.
1) He's been in my p.o.e pile since early on
2) He's catch up posts had no reads at all as far as i could see. Lot of info, questions, but tno real analysis/reads.

Allomancer is another possibility but he is posting very little, i'm worried that he is lynch bait.

Guy has the air of noob scum to me.
Worse case he isn't going to contribute much as town.
Happy with lynching him today.

VOTE ALLOMANCER

What changed between these posts, from him being lynch bait to having an air of noob scum?

.

[I Am Innocent]

The reluctance of a hammer on a "VT" claim with 27 hrs to the deadline has me feeling good about this flip.

[I Am Innocent]

Yep me too.

[I Am Innocent]

As for a CC, we still haven't heard from Mjoll, Fitz, Flub, Inno, and Raya.

Though at this point, it's risky for scum to fake claim, or even fake counter claim. So I'm good with looking elsewhere. We don't have too terribly much time left.

My lynch pool is Fitz, Mjoll, Flub. Might be rethinking Mjol. At the very least, I accept that Mjoll is probably not the lynch today.

VOTE: Fitz

Last set of scum reads by chick

[I Am Innocent]

Is there some reason why her last reads should mean something?

From my experience, scum usually remove threats to themselves. Especially when I think many people, myself included, suspected Chick, and as town would have been an easy push.

[I Am Innocent]

Or could have simply been a power role suspicion kill.

In a setup like this with six IC. No way, you keep lynch bait unless they are a threat to you.

[I Am Innocent]

[*]Realeo: How do you currently feel about Lil Uzi?

That is not a question that I am expecting.

He is being rational currently.

The question I have can be for both you and Mjoll, why did you choose to flick someone off rather than on last night?

Sorry been meaning to dig into those who pushed/voted allo & moz, but just been too busy as yet to get to it. Holding off on my reads until I do this.

[I Am Innocent]

tbh asking why no one finds you suspicious is like one of the least suspicious things you can do

Not sure I'd agree, here is a game where syndesis kept saying she was ignored, and ended up flipping scum:

Post 107 "I'm trying to decide if Dragnalus is ignoring me or just ignoring me."

Post 802 "I'm glad someone's finally paying attention to me lol it was kind of disconcerting being blatantly ignored"

Post 804 "the fact that I'm suddenly popular when before I couldn't get attention for love or money is pretty amusing tbh"

Post 1231 "hey if people could not ignore my questions I think that'd be rad."

Post 1235 "Light, obviously, also IaI is sort of ignoring me."

viewtopic.php?t=71908&f=53&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

[I Am Innocent]

There are 2 scum power roles. 6 town power roles. One could argue that the 1 scum power role (rolecop) is minimally impactful due to the number of town power roles and actual town power roles both known/listed by the mod.

So arguably 1 useful scum power role vs a much higher number of useful town power roles, assuming they are turned on.

Even randomly guessing, you are always better off turning on a player than turning them off. And one of them was even a non-CC'd power role, so that was as safe a bet as anybody to turn on if you were really worried about turning on a scum role...

Anyone else claiming to turning somebody off N1?

[I Am Innocent]

There are 2 scum power roles. 6 town power roles. One could argue that the 1 scum power role (rolecop) is minimally impactful due to the number of town power roles and actual town power roles both known/listed by the mod.

So arguably 1 useful scum power role vs a much higher number of useful town power roles, assuming they are turned on.

Even randomly guessing, you are always better off turning on a player than turning them off. And one of them was even a non-CC'd power role, so that was as safe a bet as anybody to turn on if you were really worried about turning on a scum role...

Anyone else claiming to turning somebody off N1?

I'm disappointed by the lack of discussion surrounding this post. I'm going to be blunt, with three scum players and only two power roles, I'd be shocked if there wasn't at least one scum a night "trying to turn off" a town player. Maybe more if some/all scum are turned on.

I would also imagine scum being nervous of the switch analyst or a mass priority claim/targets, so how would they react if they did try to flick someone off? Stay quiet? Speak up early? I lean towards the latter, esp if someone else went first. Which hence why I asked the question at the end of the quoted post above asking if anyone else claim to turn somebody off N1. If you posted after my question and did not answer, I am assuming the answer is no, and will hold you accountable later if it is determined you lied/stayed quiet.

Including the proof above that trying to "turn off scum" vs "turning on town" is suboptimal play, and the likelihood at least one scum probably turned off a player, I am now highly suspicious of mjoll and a little less so realeo, and want to look at their play further. I still plan on looking at the allo and moz's wagon, so that is also on my list. Will try to get to these all in the next two+ days.

[I Am Innocent]

I disagree with a mass claim regarding who we turned on or off. You're just then telling scum which person you think is a potential power-role. It should be nameless. I'm fine with a mass claim of who turned someone on or off without a name.

I wasn't suggesting a mass claim.

M is decently town for me regardless of him turning someone off. While I see your point, I feel as if M does play looking for scum before town based on how he has progressed this game, and a bit of raw gut. He seems to be the overly conflicted type. With this in mind, it isn't shocking he'd turn someone off. I have another detailed reason that I'm keeping to myself until Uzi is done playing my game.

Yeah I remember liking Mjoll D1 too. But I also didn't like Moz or Chick, so I need to re-evaluate. Flicking off the switch doesn't help. Then not even a "my bad, I didn't think of that strategy, i'll make sure to flip on going forward" from both Mjoll and realeo is even more disconcerting. It was almost like, I'll ignore IAI's points and just hope it goes away.

[I Am Innocent]

I've noticed that Realeo tends to make an actual post, then a bunch of useless posts, like 951 and 955

Yeah he tends to do that. I think that's just him as a person though.

Hey lil, sounds like u know realeo better than most here, what do u make of his flipping off N1 followed by his I'm going to keep doing it cause it's optimal play, despite me showing why it's not. The last thing I'm willing to do is give scum an out for flipping off switches, so I'm leaning heavy towards realeo being scum right now.

That an my ongoing catch-up shows realeo pushed for both moz and allo day 1. I remembered the allo push but not the moz push.

Need to look into a few more players interactions with allo and moz, and will also see what lil has to say before I cast my vote. Real soon tho I promise.

[I Am Innocent]

Sorry we are 1000+ posts in this game and the fact realeo can't pick a scummiest person among the top wagons is BS. Sorry not buying it.

[I Am Innocent]

Whoops forgot the vote

vote realeo

Mjoll, any comment on my switch on vs off analysis? Will you be flipping players on going forward?

[I Am Innocent]

No why do u ask?

[I Am Innocent]

No why do u ask?

I'm saying townhunting as a strategy not a technique.

aka looking for town instead of scum. Do you think it's not something to be doing right now?

I think both are useful. Town hunting and scum hunting

[I Am Innocent]

Yeah town reading is legit it ends up being what I have to do a lot.

But even then scummiest just ends up resolving to least towny so iai has a point.

Yep, this.

[I Am Innocent]

What is your feeling?

If IAI scumread because I have "no scumread out of 4 people?", why IAI does not scumread fitz since he have "no scumread out of everyone?"

I mean, sure, fitz has activity issue, but doesn't he is supposed to carry scumread from D1?

No that was just the icing on the cake. I like how you minimize all my other concerns about you:

Your pushes on Allo and Moz D1
Your "why is nobody looking at me" instead of scumhunting, similar to the example I provided about scum syndesis in a recent game with her
Your turning off someone N1
Your admittance to continuing to turn off people future nights when it is in town's best interest to turn on town power roles and catch the 1+ scum that is turning off power roles each night.

And then finally, when pressed on which wagon you would join if nothing changed, 'hmmm....not sure. Need to think about that.' After 1000 friggin posts, yeah not buying it.

But nice shade.

[I Am Innocent]

I claim that I am not omgusing since I already state my intention

IAI

What intent, the one here:

So this is what the vote count should look like, if those who are pushing their respected targets would just vote already. @Realeo, where should you be placed? It'll be fun to see where Fitz decides to go, whenever he comes back to play.

Outside those four wagons. I just have a programming competition so I don't have the brain power to make a decision yet.

But you know how I feel about fitz and IaI.

Which occurred after I hinted at intent your way:

I've noticed that Realeo tends to make an actual post, then a bunch of useless posts, like 951 and 955

Yeah he tends to do that. I think that's just him as a person though.

Hey lil, sounds like u know realeo better than most here, what do u make of his flipping off N1 followed by his I'm going to keep doing it cause it's optimal play, despite me showing why it's not. The last thing I'm willing to do is give scum an out for flipping off switches, so I'm leaning heavy towards realeo being scum right now.

That an my ongoing catch-up shows realeo pushed for both moz and allo day 1. I remembered the allo push but not the moz push.

Need to look into a few more players interactions with allo and moz, and will also see what lil has to say before I cast my vote. Real soon tho I promise.

Cause your last read on me prior to that was a POE scum read...by far, nothing definitive:

I feel pretty good about IaI, Nos, and Realeo

IaI? How?

What's suspicious about IaI?

It's more to "I can't really find any alibi to make IaI town so I kinda default to put it in my scum pile"?

Long story short, no I'm not claiming you were OMGUS. I personally don't think that is a scum tell anyway. But your noted concern about your vote being perceived as such, especially since the order of things don't line up as you are pretending, is reason number 6(?) on why I'm pretty certain you are scum.

[I Am Innocent]

Like, your entire scumread first is that you don't buy that I don't want to vote the wagon--now I am supposed to have a definitive scumread?

So for you, it is just a game of me not fulfilling your expectation

I don't understand why you impose way on how am I supposed to play

when you have zero meta at me

?

STOP MISREPPING ME ALREADY!!!!

You just said you could have a POE scumread in the post right before this one!!! Well after 1000 posts, if you can't tell me who in the list of 4 is most scummy, then by all means, TELL ME HIS THE LEAST TOWNIE! Or are you saying you'd advocate a no lynch. That was all that was asked of you....NOTHING MORE!

And it has nothing to do with fulfilling expectations, it has everything to do with scummy behavior. I've listed a whole friggin list of reasons, but yet u keep coming back to this one. Well here is my thoughts on the one...add it to everything else and you are most likely scum. Sorry you're ticked off that I caught you, you won't be the first player that has happened too.

those who pushed/voted allo & moz

Did you determine who was in this group?

No I haven't had time to go through the whole list yet. What concerned me most about realeo was that I didn't even remember him suspecting moz D1. Indeed he started off town reading him, and only seemed to change reads when the Moz thing took off.

[I Am Innocent]

And then finally, when pressed on which wagon you would join if nothing changed, 'hmmm....not sure. Need to think about that.' After 1000 friggin posts, yeah not buying it.

ARE YOU SERIOUSLY ACCUSING ME OF LYING ABOUT REAL LIFE?

Nope, I believe you are busy. But I believe a town player who was caught up on the thread, busy or not at the moment, has some reads after 1000 posts. So while I believe you are busy, I don't believe you are a town player who has no varying reads on the 4 players that had wagons at that moment in time. I think you are a scum player, probably busy per those links, but one that is avoiding making stances, especially being you're a real candidate for lynch today.

[I Am Innocent]

Your turning off someone N1
Your admittance to continuing to turn off people future nights when it is in town's best interest to turn on town power roles and catch the 1+ scum that is turning off power roles each night.

I already explained that I can turn off scum. You just "No. No. No. You are an idiot. Scum must be an idiot so you are scum."

Nope you're not getting off that easy.

Town player turns on a player....could be town could be scum. Random odds of turning a town power role player N1 was 5/11 (assuming they themselves was a town power role) or 6/11 if not a power role themselves. Could theoretically be 100% if they targeted allo, but it's a waste to have all town turn on allo.

Odds of town player turning on scum...2/11....which assumes scum isn't focusing themselves on turning each other on.

Hmmmmm which is better.

Now let's continue....town's odds of turning OFF scum....2/11. Town's odds of turning off town power role....5/11 or 6/11.

So roughly a 50% random chance of something good happening and less than 20% chance of something bad happening when you TURN ON A SWITCH

So roughly a 50% random chance of something BAD happening and less than 20% chance of something GOOD happening when you TURN OFF A SWITCH

That doesn't even take into account how useless a rolecop is in a setup where all the roles are defined.

But keep flailing.

[I Am Innocent]

TELL ME HIS THE LEAST TOWNIE!

Luv is the least townies out of the 4.

Done?

Why didn't you say that before?

[I Am Innocent]

will lynch {flub, fitz, iai}

Prepare to change those reads tomorrow when Realeo flips scum.

[I Am Innocent]

Realeo - Town Power Role, claims by now. No chance.
Realeo - VT, could see him not claiming by now, but if VT, we're lynching in claimed VT or CC'd power roles only anyway. So reducing VT pool is a good thing, plus one less person turning off people at night.
Realeo - Scum, could be buying time for chaotic deadline scramble with a late fake claim, knowing town ain't going to hammer without a claim and scummates would not hammer without a claim first.

So long story short, feel good about the chances he flips scum (3/5) or VT (2/5). If he does claim, I'm not going to buy it.

[I Am Innocent]

@KC:

Realeo

I'm inclined to agree. I don't think Realeo is scum. I'm not going to hammer.

Zzzzz

?

so 20 hrs from a deadline and a 60% chance realeo is scum, ur advocating a no lynch?

[I Am Innocent]

I'm an actuary

[I Am Innocent]

That explains the probability sheningans.

Isn't actuary a demanding job? Especially the fact you have to pass layers of qualifying exam.

About the hammer, I am gonna self-hammer. Maybe like..16 hours?

If you're into numbers, good at problem solving, and decent at computers/large sets of data, actuary is a great job. I love it. Oh the exams, yeah they suck. Picture being put in a room with 1000 really smart people, knowing the pass score will be set so as 700 of the really smart people fail...yeah that was my life for a long time!

Flubber 12 hrs past a prod...so he's good till D3.

8 hrs to go....no one off the realeo wagon suspect of him enough to hammer and avoid a nl?

Ffs non-realeo voters...c'mon.

Yeah even if you think he is town, a nl takes us right back to this same wagon D3 and now we lose a mislynch. People who think Realeo is scum will push him, those who don't will push against it. Isn't it better to find out who is right???

The only way we catch scum is by lynching peeps. If we're seriously going to nl, let me know so I can replace out already.

[I Am Innocent]

If you're into numbers, good at problem solving, and decent at computers/large sets of data, actuary is a great job. I love it. Oh the exams, yeah they suck. Picture being put in a room with 1000 really smart people, knowing the pass score will be set so as 700 of the really smart people fail...yeah that was my life for a long time!

See, we are in the same league. I am an aspiring data scientist, I also play with number and huge data set. I also program for life.

Given we are in the same league, how is it impossible for you to imagine that I am too tired that I don't have the mind to make a vote when Aubrey ask me?

You're not a loser who can't imagine someone using a brain so hard.

Trust me, I get burnt out too. I get busy. Look at my last game, I threw a tantrum and replaced out because I was so busy in real life and was frustrated that I was being questioned about it (surprise surprise it was scum that got me to lose my cool).

But usually burnt out for me means I fall behind/lose motivation. If I'm caught up, I always have reads. So I'm having trouble relating to what you said.

If you really are town, my apologies on my sucky read this game. I'll be happy to talk more post game about why I scum read you (it was much more than just the not willing to give a name among the four wagons) and more about strategies town should and shouldn't take this game.

If you are town, and I haven't read the rest of your posts yet, final reads are always good.

[I Am Innocent]

I too didn't see the post, but based on the PM from the mod, I have no reason not to believe Lil and ask flubber to claim. Consider my vote there for claiming purposes.

Flubber?

[I Am Innocent]

Seriously, LUV?

havingfitz,

Town Hider

, Priority 12, Removed Night 3.

Well that's that.

Looking at yesterday's lynch...might have a few questions for IAI tomorrow if we both make it to tomorrow.

The hider literally guiltied scum with a crumb pointing to his target. On this page.

VOTE: I Am Innocent

This is just bad. Even if you think this was a crumb in an open game like this in MyLo you don't rush votes. Please unvote as I am town/know that fitz hid behind the NK target.

[I Am Innocent]

Going to look to see if fitz had crumbed any "clears"

[I Am Innocent]

I'm more concerned that no one tries to sort my slot. Am I not a threat for mafia? Am I potential back-up mislynch? Do people genuinely have no issue with me?

Mafia would never cry out for this type of attention so I would put you in the suspect pile. Congrats.

Fitz, when you can, could you fix this asap?

Why yes.

Coming from the guy with only two scum reads (one of which that flipped town)?...

I want either IaI or Fitz but I was tired mentally at that point.

What do you "want?"

VOTE: IAI

nvm the what. Why?

I mean, sure, fitz has activity issue, but doesn't he is supposed to carry scumread from D1?

What are you talking about?

WE ARE GOING TO DIE! EVERYONE PANIC!

Not till the 23rd iirc.

Reads--
Town: Me of course.
Leaning town: Aubrey, IAI, MJoll, Keychain
Slightly less leaning but still leaning town: Radical Rat
???: Formerfish
Suspects: Nosferatu, Realeo, LUV

VOTE: Realeo

Nothing definitive D2 which I would normally suspect from someone with a clear.

[I Am Innocent]

D3 was really short, the flubber self hammer. Nothing regarding reads from d3

[I Am Innocent]

I swear if I get mislynched to end this game I'm going to have some serious words with fitz about the proper play for a hider!

[I Am Innocent]

Well if Nos and Key are both town, game over. In case they're not

claim jailkeeper

Turned off N1 and N2. Hence why I was so spastic to those who were turning players off. Finally turned on for n3 where I JK allo. Did not want to disrupt other power roles so kept confirmed town safe to allow others to catch scum (watcher, switch analyst) or confirm town (hider).

[I Am Innocent]

Yeah I figured after the "crumb" you guys would go after the win today with a fake CC. So is key your partner?

[I Am Innocent]

vote nos

[I Am Innocent]

So who did you target this game mr JK?

[I Am Innocent]

lol I just realized this is an auto win from my perspective

my switch is still turned on

So whether the last scum fakes switch analyst or VT it shouldn't matter

Lynch Nos
I pick one of the two remaining players with the same claim to JK
If someone dies at night we lynch the opposite claimed player that I didn't JK
If no one dies, we start the next day with 5 players or 2 mislynches, so we pick 1 to lynch if they flip town we lynch the other in LyLo

Am I missing anything?

[I Am Innocent]

So who did you target this game mr JK?

ive already revealed far too much to confirmed scum.

Lol could you be any more obvious? Or did you just realize your fake CC backfired?

Finish claim, I announce my JK target, lynch Nos, and town win simple as that.

[I Am Innocent]

My thoughts are if people are going to believe keys supposed found crumb or Nos fake CC, town is going to lose whether they lynch me today or tomorrow.

But if people believe in town and vote Nos today, town is guaranteed a win and doesn't have to guess on the last scum as my JKer takes care of that.

Lynching outside of the JKs means you need two correct wagons, my way only one.

[I Am Innocent]

Second paragraph the word in should read I'm

[I Am Innocent]

because as scum, I try to cc the jk to get him lynched, instead of riding out a day where no one has expressed a desire in lynching me, my only detractor having replaced out, and just waiting to kill him tonight.

ye

ok

How were you going to ride out the day? Mass claim, were you going to claim Goon/Rolecop?

Nope scum needed to CC someone, and looks like you and Key are trying to manipulate fitz's last post to go all in and win right now by lynching me.

[I Am Innocent]

Hey IAI, Nos and Allo, out of {me, KC, LUV}, who should claim first?

I'm not sure it matters to me. There is one scum in that group so one of you three will be confirmed town from lack of a CC. The other two I'll sort with my JK.

I think just getting it done is the important part. If you're that concerned about order I suggest letting allo, our confirmed town, decide it

[I Am Innocent]

So the premise is if I'm town I have a 50/50 chance of saving the game if we lynch wrong in the non JK claims.

But if I'm town, and town has a 50/50 chance of figuring that out, I guarantee a win from there.

Same random odds, question is does town think they have a better than random chance at figuring scum between me and nos or between the remaining TBD two. I guess the answer is TBD then.

I think at this point allo or replacement should give the remaining claim order

[I Am Innocent]

we should actually be lynching IAI regardless of his claim

Says the guy who won't even say who he "targeted" with his JK this game lol.

[I Am Innocent]

I suppose so. I'll be here around midnight if anyone wants to talk in real time. Especially IAI, it's been a while man!

Thank goodness a competent player! Good to see you again BV.

Since I'm turned on and the scum roleblocker is dead this game is winnable today if we lynch nos and I JK one of the 2 players who claim VT or switch analyst. I declare in thread who that will be, and if someone dies, we lynch the other one for the win. If no one dies we're back to odd numbers and an extra mislynch, so have enough to lynch both spots.

Guaranteed win.

Meanwhile nos my CC won't say who he targeted any night (presumably waiting until the mass claim is done conveniently), whether or not he is turned on or not, yet I'm still leading in the vote counts. Pretty sure the three unvotes are all town so not totally worried.

[I Am Innocent]

No. The worst case scenario is 5 VT vs. 8 PRs

Scum knows who the real PRs are, we don't. We also don't have any way to verify without any action history so far.

I'd prefer NOT to have a 50/50 shot at mislynching a PR

Oh man, I wish I was here to debunk RadicalRat's claims. In this event, you simply have the scummiest "PR's" full claim until you get two sets of counterclaims. Worst case scenario, both PR's get lynched before their corresponding scum counterclaimer. Even then, you end up with 7 players which includes 2 conf-town and a five player pool which contains one mafia. Not at all a bad scenario especially since you have interactive tells and some night actions to help. And that's the worst case scenario.

I hinted at this earlier, but 2 CC was not the optimal scum play. At this point in the game I don't think it hurts to share what I was thinking earlier. Scum would want a full claim, so they know who to pick off and turn off (power roles) and who to leave alone (VT).

1 CC gets that, and leaves 2 scum to hide in a pool of 6. So imagine had we set the claim waiting for the second scum to CC, and it never comes.

No the way we played it was right.

@IAI, who do you think is Nos's partner, why?

Lil I like for town due to his calling out Flubber's deleted post. But beyond that, to be honest, I haven't gone back and looked any further. As soon as Nos CC'd me, and I realized scum couldn't block me, we have a guaranteed win if I can get the other three town to vote Nos with me today and I JK one of the two similarly claimed players. My hope is it's Key, because she doesn't appear to be budging on the fact that Fitz could have hid behind Aubrey. And if she's town, and won't move her vote, then my lynch will end the game. But first thing's first, let's finish the mass claim.

[I Am Innocent]

I've been following mostly on my phone, and with work crazy right now, I still don't have a chance for a full post to address the things I want to address. But regarding Fitz's last post, I can say there is something you are not considering that I don't feel comfortable bringing to the attention of the mafia team that you are overlooking. I'll be happy to share it post game, but I don't want to tell scum their optimal play. Best thing for us to do is ring up scummy people, and give them a chance to claim. If no CC, we just turned a scummy player into an IC and we can use that information to catch scum (who was pushing the scummy looking townie, etc).

But a full claim I do not support.

The claim I was referring to earlier in the game.

[I Am Innocent]

luv then key then creature should claim

can we just get on with it

VRO

what

My bitch don't love me no more, aye
She kick me out I'm like vro, aye

Okay, I've read through the first fifteen pages (half of D1) and it's going to take a while to get through the whole thing. I'd rather not hold up the game so if you guys really need the claims done before you post anything, that's cool.

@Keychain, claim first please. I'll post my reads and reasons after claims are done.

pls just finish d1 before you give claim order cause it would be great if they were based off of semi complete reads

or even better, read d1 skip d2, and read d3

So hasty before but now that your horse has been asked to claim first the switch in tone.

If I lose to this obv scum I'm going to be pretty ticked

[I Am Innocent]

I'm VT. Not gonna be around for about twelve hours to see if I get CCed, but the game has waited long enough tbh.

So hasty before but now that your horse has been asked to claim first the switch in tone.

If I lose to this obv scum I'm going to be pretty ticked

... I'm sorry did you just call me a horse?
If we don't lynch you today after you got guiltied and instead mislynch and lose,

I'm

going to be ticked.

There was no cop guilty. He said if we both live he is going to have questions for me. Yet if he hid behind me and we were both alive the next day he would know I was town so why would he have questions for me?!?! Stop with the got guiltied already. You are either wrong or pushing a scum agenda. If it's the former I am going to need your vote on Nos today or town will lose. If it's the latter, keep being stubborn.

VOTE: KeyChain

Okay this I get, cause I'm in the same boat with Nos.

VOTE: Keychain

But this, do you think lynching outside of Nos, Me is the way to go today? If you can see that I'm town/Nos is scum, we don't have to guess between Key and Creature, you know that right? I block one and if no one dies, we lynch the other. With no one dying we are at 5 to start the next day so two mislynches, so a scum NK gambit would be useless.

Same question for BV.

PS - For all those still doubting it, please note that Nos has yet to say if his switch is on or off, nor has he told us any of his supposed JK targets. Just ISO him today and tell me he is town. I dare you to find anything representing that.

[I Am Innocent]

I definitely do because I still town read Nos.

Then we're going to lose regardless if we hit scum in {Key, creature} today.

[I Am Innocent]

Not really. You're jailing Nosferatu, so tonight there should be no kill and we'll get two lynches, enough to lynch both of you if needed.

That assumes we get it right in Key vs you. I guess I've got more confidence in myself vs Nos.

[I Am Innocent]

From first glance, do you think it's easy to tell which of {me, KC} is town or scum?

From first glance, do you think it's easy to tell which of {me, Nos} is town or scum?

[I Am Innocent]

PS - For all those still doubting it, please note that Nos has yet to say if his switch is on or off, nor has he told us any of his supposed JK targets. Just ISO him today and tell me he is town. I dare you to find anything representing that.

Yeah, I want to know this too and have Nos full claim all role information.

I'm still thinking about the best way to go about this. I certainly think Creature is the easiest to read out of all four of you. Initial impression is that you/Creature are town and Nos/Keychain are the scumteam but that's based on a very cursory read of the thread and I could be entirely wrong there.

Setting aside the idea that if we trust you and lynch Nos, we win, which of Creature or Keychain do you think is likelier to be scum?

Key

[I Am Innocent]

Well I'm not here and I'm not hammering, so if Key is town, she now knows I'm town. That should be two votes on Nos now.

[I Am Innocent]

I have strong town reads on both so I really wish it didn't have to go down this way.

Well this game got easier, cause if Key doesn't switch to Nos she scum claims at this point. So if you and BV hop over, we win.

[I Am Innocent]

Question for IAI: do you think Creature's play here is similar to his play in mhsmith's game that we all played together?

I honestly don't even remember creature in that game. GreyIce, Twoface, Sotty, our masonry yeah, but outside of that I'm drawing blanks.

[I Am Innocent]

You know BV. Read my play today. Read Nos's play today. Gut, which of us is scum?

[I Am Innocent]

EBWOP: You know me BV...

[I Am Innocent]

Actually in a hypothetical world where IAI/Creature is the team, it still makes sense not to hammer because you don't know Nosferatu's switch state or priority level and if he stops a kill, the quickhammer would give you away.

Fair point.

[I Am Innocent]

mod how would the following mechanics resolve at night in this game

Player A is a jailkeeper, switch turned on
Player B is a hider, switch turned on
Player C is a town aligned player

Player A targets player B at night
Player B targets player C at night
No other roles or kill attempts are made at any of these 3 players that night

Does Player B successfully hide behind Player C or does the JK prevent him from doing so?

[I Am Innocent]

Yeah he was caught in a lie, can we end this?

Lynch Nos, I'll JK key tonight. If someone dies lynch creature, otherwise we start D5 with 5 players and 2 mislynches, one for key one for creature.

Everyone got it?

[I Am Innocent]

I have no objections, but I'd like to come clean on a gambit first. I lied below, as I thought after two quick votes and Key pushing the supposed Fitz crumb on me, it was best to go 1 vs 1 with Nos.

My switch is currently off, but I was hoping scum wasn't sure of that. I figured with the plan I outlined below, I could:

1) force a 1 vs 1 with Nos, knowing if I was lynched game over, it I wasn't, I was confirmed town and would explain the fake gambit D5
2) try to get Nos into panic mode

I apparently did not think beyond my plan, as holes crept in throughout the day. The one hole that isn't there though is I know Nos is lying scum. And he said his switch is on. So he is backed into a corner.

So it comes down to Key, is she scum or town. If we lynch her and she flips scum, we have another confirmed town (creature) and in my eyes a guaranteed win***. If town, well game over.

***If scum, then Nos has to say he JK'd me, no one dies and we get two mislynches. Lynch me first, then him, game over. Someone dies he is caught lying yet again. We lynch him in MyLo game over.

Sorry for the gambit, it was the best I had to keep town from losing in LyLo.

lol I just realized this is an auto win from my perspective

my switch is still turned on

So whether the last scum fakes switch analyst or VT it shouldn't matter

Lynch Nos
I pick one of the two remaining players with the same claim to JK
If someone dies at night we lynch the opposite claimed player that I didn't JK
If no one dies, we start the next day with 5 players or 2 mislynches, so we pick 1 to lynch if they flip town we lynch the other in LyLo

Am I missing anything?

My thoughts are if people are going to believe keys supposed found crumb or Nos fake CC, town is going to lose whether they lynch me today or tomorrow.

But if people believe in town and vote Nos today, town is guaranteed a win and doesn't have to guess on the last scum as my JKer takes care of that.

Lynching outside of the JKs means you need two correct wagons, my way only one.

[I Am Innocent]

In that spirit I will fullclaim seeing as it makes no sense to delay it if I'm not even going to be here

Last night I targeted fitz because I scumread him for reasons already listed.

My switch is on. Will give priority if necessary, but I might not get back to you for awhile.

.

[I Am Innocent]

Now wait and see on the flip.

[I Am Innocent]

vote Nos

Sorry about the gambit. Glad I was able to come clean before the thread was locked. Not surprisingly Nos was forced to kill still, and with his switch turned on he should have been able to JK me. Except for the fact he and I know he is not a JKer. Curious to hear how he tries to talk his way out of this one.

[I Am Innocent]

My switch is on, I'm a priority 1. My bad on not realizing you could turn on yourself. I did confirm this with the mod N4 after nos's claim they did it N3. I don't think that was the case in the first game.

N1 turned on raya (per my plan where you turn on the player above you in the player list)
N2 turned on rad rat
N3 turned on lil (formerly raya)
N4 turned on myself

Rad rat was a strong town read for me. Lil after the flubber lynch was a strong read going into N3.

Once again had I known I could turn myself on I would have the whole game. My bad on that guys...

I think I've now fully disclosed everything BV/creature, if there is anything your confused about in my play let me know.

[I Am Innocent]

@IAI, I'm not sure I understand the reason behind your gambit. Why were you so particular about wanting to get Nos lynched D4 that you'd give town wrong info? If you are town and you get lynched, it's game over. That doesn't change whether you got lynched last DP or this DP. You also need to correctly lynch out of Creature/Keychain to win the game and that doesn't change either. Why did the order matter so much? If anything, the opposite makes more sense: if you saw votes on you and people not trusting you because Fitz crumb, then it makes more sense to scumhunt in Creature/Keychain, lynch scum and hope town get more info to clear you/condemn Nos. It does feel like you knew Keychain being flipped would set you back and tried going for the win yesterday whereas Nos was very willing to vote Keychain. Also, your play D4 makes sense if you were truly turned on and it would have been auto-win if we lynched Nos. But knowing you were turned off, your refusal to scumhunt much within Creature/Keychain makes much less sense.

It's actually the opposite. I was hoping to keep it between nos and myself so I'd be confirmed town. That was why I wanted to avoid creature/keychain. Having to explain the gambit is much easier once you win the 1 vs 1 and become confirmed town.

Key and nos came at me very quickly. When nos faked CC I thought I knew that scum was going all in on me. Which is why I tried the gambit, figured I had nothing to lose.

[I Am Innocent]

From a you-scum perspective, the explanation would be that you said you were turned on because you wanted to lynch Nos and win. But when you realized Keychain was getting lynched instead and that would lead to auto-loss, you said it was a gambit and you were turned off after all so you have the chance to avoid auto-loss. That seems a lot more straightforward.

It was MyLo yesterday. Why would scum want to put all their eggs in one basket? Why would I only want to lynch Nos when from a scum perspective I would have had two options for a win? And why would scum IAI have his teammate Key push the hardest on him in MyLo rather than have them keep their options open?

It doesn't line up. What does is:

1) the hard push by both of them on me
2) the lack of Nos to give any info on night actions before the mass claim
3) the pushback to give info on night actions after the claim
4) saying he hid behind fitz and then later saying on no I was wrong my switch was off
5) the back and forth distance vote on key and vote on me yesterday
6) nos wanting to push the mass claim, and as soon as key was asked to go first he wanted to slow it down, even came up with his own order where lil went before key
7) saying his switch was on again for N4 yet lied again

Srsly read nos play D4 again with the assumption he is scum. It's pretty obvious he is teammates with key.

[I Am Innocent]

I won't deny that. I just don't think our best move is to let them know who the top priority players are. It puts our PR's at risk. By keeping it hidden, it lets appropriate town players (read: vanilla) try and draw the night kills. Knowing the priority numbers, scum can just start picking off people higher than them until they have the upper hand.

Priority numbers don't correlate with PRs though.
If anything, I'd expect more PRs in the low priority for balance purposes, but that's purely speculation.

And while you're right in that scum may try to pick off the high priorities.... We've got a Tracker, Watcher, and JK here. With even a single one of them turned on scum's gonna have problems not being caught if they go that route.

I believe this is a low risk high reward scenario for Town.
Only scum should be scared

I never said they correlated. But if scum just picks off people above their highest priority, they can start turning off roles and agin the upper hand.

That's what our PRs are for. JK protects high priority, except PR claims. Watcher observes high priority targets, especially a PR that the JK won't be protecting. Tracker just does their thing.
Picking off high priorities is not a sustainable tactic for scum.

This has me thinking:

mod, do roles such as JK or RBer block only other roles, or switch attempts too?

I think last game I and MOI debated on forcing everybody to switch "on" the person above them in the player list (top player on the list then does the player on the bottom).

Positive side is all town power roles would be turned on (or scum risks getting caught if not), down side is scum roles are too. I personally think that is a risk worth taking though, depending on the answer the mod gives. If RBer does affect switch attempts too, I'd take back this recommendation tho.

Yeah pointed out my role in a "fake question" to the mod.

[I Am Innocent]

It's actually the opposite. I was hoping to keep it between nos and myself so I'd be confirmed town. That was why I wanted to avoid creature/keychain. Having to explain the gambit is much easier once you win the 1 vs 1 and become confirmed town.

Key and nos came at me very quickly. When nos faked CC I thought I knew that scum was going all in on me. Which is why I tried the gambit, figured I had nothing to lose.

I still don't understand. If you're town, you need to do two things to win. a) Out-debate Nos. b) Pick correctly between Creature and Keychain. The order doesn't really matter and if anything, doing B first will give you a better chance of winning A. But you were really, really focused on doing A first. You already knew Nos was scum so lynching him doesn't really make a difference as far as looking for partner-interactions go.

Are you referring to pre or post gambit?

[I Am Innocent]

Once I did the gambit I was like oh crap if we successfully do b) and then someone dies I am going to be autolynched for the loss. I'd rather KEEP it on me/nos and become confirmed town then do b).

If you're talking pre gambit, I had someone point out a supposed crumb, got two quick votes and a fake CC, and looking back may have panicked with the fake gambit. It seemed like a good move. Nos did tighten up at that point.

[I Am Innocent]

His vote on flubber D2 was "to sort him out", that's text book let me distance from my partner but give me an out for later.

I actually have inside info so maybe I'm biased, but yeah the key/nos interactions felt like look at me I'm participating but not committing to this read. The unvote by key was just bad. There were a few bad lines by nos in there that I can quote when I get on a computer.

[I Am Innocent]

Once I did the gambit I was like oh crap if we successfully do b) and then someone dies I am going to be autolynched for the loss. I'd rather KEEP it on me/nos and become confirmed town then do b).

If you're talking pre gambit, I had someone point out a supposed crumb, got two quick votes and a fake CC, and looking back may have panicked with the fake gambit. It seemed like a good move. Nos did tighten up at that point.

So, you did a gambit where you locked yourself into getting auto-lynched if we successfully lynched scum outside of the you/Nos pair? I don't see the utility there.

But I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on D1/D2. You never really pushed any of the scum and focused almost exclusively on town. Would you say you were having an off-game here and is there a reason why? Your accuracy rate as town is normally much higher. You were majorly responsible for both town lynches and I don't think you spent much time at all focusing on any of Flubber/Keychain/Nos throughout the game.

yeah I was wrong about flubber and nos. flubber I played a game with and nailed as scum D1. His play here was much different. He didn't seem to care whereas in that game I caught him thru fake scumhunting. Nos I don't care attitude also gained an incorrect town read.

Key was always off to me. When she pushed me to divulge the optimal scum play D2 I became very wary of her. Remember it was me not Nos who said she should mass claim first D4. Picking one of the town to mass claim first, as Nos suggested, would have given Key a chance to pick who she wanted to CC.

And in all fairness, town hunting is also a very important part of my game and I correctly nailed rad rat and fitz, and to a lesser degree your slot and aubrey (tho at times both of these slots made me question things about them)

[I Am Innocent]

I don't really understand why you were never able to recognize that Realeo/Mozamis were town. They both had a very townie frustration to them which reminded me of Kairal in that musical mafia game we played together where you picked up on him being town and talked me into it when I wasn't very sure.

Moz dropped a scum tell early on. Giving full reads list without really explaining the why on the reads. His read on me was particularly weak. At one point it was scum IAI is very dangerous so we need to be careful with this slot to IAI is too good a town player to be playing like this. The only concrete reason he ever threw out at me was he didn't like my scum chick read but in his next reads list he had chick as scum!

Realeo dropped the scum syndesis tell which is when scum say why is nobody paying attention to me. And the part I hated about realeo the most was how his play changed once his wagon got going. He started to push his scum reads like he never did to that point in the game. Went hard after fitz, who I had a strong town read on from his early D1 play.

[I Am Innocent]

If the whole plan was for me to go 1 vs 1 against town Nos why would my scummate attack me with a supposed crumb? Please think about that. The only thing I can ascertain is that scum tried to turn me off and assumed I was lying.

Please before you lose this game just read how nos acted again after my gambit. He seemed confused antagonistical.

I guarantee you if I was scum with key I'd have attacked her to no end for town cred. I would not have sic'ed her on myself. I would not have boxed myself in with a fake gambit, no way no how.

[I Am Innocent]

For towncred in case you flipped. If you managed to turn the tide against Nos by getting a couple of town votes, she could always quickhammer - in fact, that would be optimal.

But I'll look over the whole game again. If you're town, help me see it through the lens of Nos being scum with Flubber/Fish and Keychain throughout the game because that's where I'm hung up on.

Btw, when was the last time you were scum, IAI? I can't find any recent scumgames to look at.

This is the last completed scum game I could find:

viewtopic.php?f=56&t=67479

Been a few since this that I've flaked/replaced out from.

As for the interactions with flipped scum, I'll look, but know that it's going to be coming from the biased lens that I'm wearing. Just need a little time.

[I Am Innocent]

moz and allo are my preferred lynches for today, I'm fine comprimising, but I'd real rather not.

First two reads of the game.

ok aubrey can be town I guess

Next read.

That's it for D1, outside of his RVS vote for Raya, it was all Moz and Allo for votes that day. Little interaction with Key/Flubber.

*******************************************

Well the first alarm bell that should've gone off in my head is the startling lack of scum reads on moz...

:: Final Day One VoteCount ::

mozamis (7) -

Radical Rat, I Am Innocent, Flubbernugget, Nosferatu, Chickadee, Realeo, Keychain

[Lynched]

Nosferatu (3) -

Allomancer, Aubrey, Mjollnir

I Am Innocent (1) -

mozamis

Chickadee (1) -

havingfitz

Not Voting (1) -

Raya36

Lynch has been reached at 7 votes.

Modscene forthcoming....

As much as it sucks to say it, it's pretty unlikely more than one scum was off that moz wagon. I'm hesitant to say that it was Allo simply because I was similarly confident in moz being scum.

I still would like to think Aubrey and Mjollnir are town.

First post of D2. We now know that all 3 of the scum were on the Moz wagon. So which two players does he predict are scum.....wait for it.....next post is soon to come:

IF I had to choose two scum on the wagon just gun to my head, I'd say Realeo and Inno

Yep town Realeo and me. I know both town players. Surprise surprise, no key, no flubber.

But wait it gets better. He gives us, IN THE VERY NEXT POST, a retroactive, never before released reads list from the prior day:

{aubrey, mjoll}
{key, radical}
{raya, fitz, inno}
{flub}
{moz, allo}
^ my reads as of yesterday that I will have to fix since they were bad :'(

probably will ISO everyone on the moz wagon first with priority on {fitz, mjoll, flub} since those were chick's last scumreads, and I didn't really see any lynchbait in there so I find it unlikely scum would go for a framejob here.

Kinda lazy so I don't think that I'll get done with all of those today, but it's fair to say that I should be able to get one ISO done today.

Hmmm, moz is dead. Allo was un-CC'd BP, so why is flub, who was on the moz wagon, not one of the two people, gun to his head, one of the scum on the Moz wagon.

PS - scum are where I'd picture them, one in the top half, one in the bottom half.

Now here comes the interesting part, gun to his head it is me and realeo, right. But he instead opts to throw a "pressure vote" on Flubber, who has one vote, while Realeo also has one vote. No real change on stance on either of these players between 788 & 953 either:

VOTE: flub
pressure vote because I want to see this sorted

Oh, and 5 posts later Key unvotes Nos to eliminate his wagon. Maybe they didn't want two wagons on scum at the same time for town to choose from?

For the record, these are the last times these players cross voted until flubber's deleted post.

he's one of the people I wanted to sort today because he was one of chick's final scumreads

Here is the next mention of flubber, once again not his scumread but Chick's. Giving himself the out to unvote when needed.

I'm not sheeping her reads, he's still null to me, however I just feel like he's a priority to sort.

If I were to pick some scumsters: I don't like how mjollnir likes my allo case and not my moz case, LUV is always a priority sort since he's a strong scum player, fitz has been hiding behind setup spec for awhile now, and I haven't seen radical in bit.

More of the same "he's still null to me." Textbook too scared to go all in on the bus.

Oh, note Key is no where to be found on his scumsters list despite the drama back and forth they had earlier in the day. All town players with bad reasoning. Must have forgot his early scum reads on Realeo and myself.

79 Straight out of the gate with some setup spec questions, I feel good about this since he could've easily just asked those questions in scum PT
I'm going to ignore the setup breaking stuff since I personally find it uninteresting and more importantly NAI
369 Catch-up that kind of implies he wasn't really reading o/
1. Opposes priority claiming which is good
2. Shooting RR's 28 gives me good vibez too
3. Dig on realeo's 37 is a reach. I've never seen scum go for such cheap town tells.
4. Chick doesn't phrase 71 in a really pockety way, don't like this point.
5. Would love to hear why fitz liked 77. First half was fence-sitting, other half was piggybacking off of key's earlier post.
6. shading moza's anti-claim stance because he claimed priority seems kinda bleh. closest analogy I can think of is throwing away your headset because it's not a building.

452 Boy do I love seeing this
1. I would not townread either realeo or aubrey based on this page (10)
2. Why did two of your scumreads become townleans?
3. I cannot tell you the physical pain it brought me to see that your only proper town read was yourself.

520-571 Extremely hung up on the use of 20 minutes for seemingly no reason. Bad vibez.

728 this vote is bad. REALLY BAD. especially within the context of that flip.

1073 Ok couple bad things here.
1. Realeo scumread because he got mad over a question is? Scum motivation there?
2. Still no reads
3. Zero justification for any of those scumreads
4. First bit about realeo's 825 is lowkey garbage

1107 Do not like the tone shift here.

Gonna put this at nullscum

But yet leaves his vote on a null player who is in no danger of being lynched rather than someone who is nullscum. What town player does that less than 3 days from the deadline.

will lynch {flub, fitz, iai}

Another mention, willing to leave his vote there, but has never once, I REPEAT NEVER ONCE, called flubber a scum read. Null was the highest he ever got. You want to give him points for leaving his vote on a wagon that never got higher than 2 all day, I ask how many negative points should he get for flopping on reads (never explained how realeo went from his start of D2 scum read to refusing to vote for him) and leaving a vote on flubber yet never pushing him.

************************************

D3, after leaving his vote on Nos ALL OF DAY 2, town Nos would go back to the well right?

Nope:

VOTE: fitz

You talk of interactions. All the interactions I've seen were distancing moves at best. The progression of reads from Nos particularly are just bad. I'll reiterate more of the bad stuff from D4, but yeah you both need to think this through again before you go with the wrong horse.

[I Am Innocent]

D4 bad posts by Nos:

So who did you target this game mr JK?

ive already revealed far too much to confirmed scum.

Except revealing targets on past nights would not help scum. No reason for town not to share this at this point.

ok if I had to guess, I think that IAI is the goon and mjoll was the roleblocker

Goes after creature rather than key early.

luv then key then creature should claim

can we just get on with it

Wants key to go second, would have given her choice of who to CC. Also, order is interesting since he just called creature the roleblocker but wants him to claim last.

VRO

what

My bitch don't love me no more, aye
She kick me out I'm like vro, aye

Okay, I've read through the first fifteen pages (half of D1) and it's going to take a while to get through the whole thing. I'd rather not hold up the game so if you guys really need the claims done before you post anything, that's cool.

@Keychain, claim first please. I'll post my reads and reasons after claims are done.

pls just finish d1 before you give claim order cause it would be great if they were based off of semi complete reads

As soon as Key is asked to go first, he wants things slowed down before BV gives claim order. Hmmm, who would that benefit???

Can we lynch IAI and then I block key? I can give switch numberr and LUV cam verify that I targeted him? Or am I misunderstanding how switch analyst works?

Claims switch is on. Lie #1.

To read you obviously.

I don't know how much you know about human behavior

but you are asking me to do something I don't want to do, "just because"

I have literally negative incentive to fullclaim. I hope you understand why I can't just roll over because you want me to with zero reasoning.

Still being resistant to fullclaim. Interestingly enough the resistance to BV happened around the same time he voted his partner key (1391).

I really hope I don't need to explain why when you counterclaim someone, you need to lay out all your info for the rest of the town to make the best informed decision.

except in this scenario, due to the lack of the ability to test out these claims, your decision isn't any more informed with my info. I could actually put the playerlist through random.org and pick the first three and tell you those were my targets and you would have the exact same information. If say the tracker or watcher was still alive, you'd have a point here. But if it eases your mind, I can always just go ahead and give you random names for each night.

You'd have to explain why you targeted those players. It's not going to be as easy as you're claiming.

N1 - Aubrey: I was unsure as to who to rb because of how wrong I was about moz, so I decided to use my jk as a doc and protect a townread of mine.
N2 - LUV: His entry unnerved me with his immediate conclusion that scum killed his gf to frame him in a way that felt premeditated, so I went to block him.
N3 - Mjollnir/Creature: I didn't like how he disliked my moz case but not my allo case when they were essentially the same. It seemed like he was trying to jump off of moz's death and he wasn't able to prove that he actually was reading my posts, so I went to block him.

^^^ made up in like 5 mins

also from random.org, thats not real lmao

More of the same.

In that spirit I will fullclaim seeing as it makes no sense to delay it if I'm not even going to be here

Last night I targeted fitz because I scumread him for reasons already listed.

My switch is on. Will give priority if necessary, but I might not get back to you for awhile.

Lie #2 saying he targeted Fitz that night.

Ok so this is what happened last night

Me --> Fitz (fails because my switch is off, which uzi can verify with his ability)
Fitz --> Aubrey/IAI
IAI(he's the goon im pretty sure) --> Aubrey

So you'll lynch me today probs lets be real

IAI will be obvscum and will kill uzi I'm guessing since I won't be around to doc

BV will have to choose between keychain and creature, and I'm guessing creature will be lynched.

So yeah there you go, the rest of your game.

Scum getting caught in a lie. Guessing (hoping?) creature will be lynched in MyLo.

VOTE: Key
I like creature's reaction to this.

Continues his distance with Key with this vote. Too bad his vote was already on Key.

I wasn't able to get to my computer on the second night.

Do you really believe?

for the first night I wanted to see if someone would switch me on, which happened.

Do you really believe ^ 2?

*****************

The guy has lied multiple times about switch being on, who he targeted, etc. Huge distancing from Key late D4 after protecting her/attacking creature & Lil early D4.

Guys I don't know what to tell you except I'm sorry for the fake gambit. As scum I would have NEVER EVER NEVER EVER EVER said my switch was on. I would have claimed JKer, hoped my counterpart was off, and bussed the heck out of key. It was a lie, my gambit, but don't let town lose over that one lie. Look at the entire work of Nos compared to that one lie. I'm guessing scum knew I was a power role and turned me off. They must have known I wasn't self turning myself on because earlier in the game I said outright in thread that I didn't think that you could. It's the best explanation I have for Nos willing to bus Key...hats off to them if they pull this off.

I rest my case. Let me know if you have any other questions for me.

[I Am Innocent]

resistence to bv started when someone (idk) asked me to fullclaim and i said no, painting that like it was only because of key is really weird

Nope not true. I asked you to state you night actions and you refused cause you weren't going to help me/scum. Then confirmed town BV asked you and you were still resistant. So continuing to be resistant when confirmed town ask you when your original reason for not stating it was to 'not help scum'.

Forget the fact that announcing your prior night JK targets would not help scum at all. It is more indicative of concern of being caught in a lie.

you are calling my posts lies when i gave legit reasons why i said those things believing them to be true and your only rebuttle to that is "wElL Do YoU ReaLLy bElIEVe THAT"

You had two blatant lies. Apparently they are more believable than my fake gambit. Oh well, won't be the first time I cost town a loss in MyLo/LyLo.

BV, lead the charge. Vote with your heart, no regrets. I won't hold anything against you.

Congrats Nos, well played.

[I Am Innocent]

Forget the fact that announcing your prior night JK targets would not help scum at all. It is more indicative of concern of being caught in a lie.

idk how i would've been caught in a lie? if i were scum would not have claimed to rb key for cred or better yet someone who didn't die lol?

I don't know, maybe something like this:

In that spirit I will fullclaim seeing as it makes no sense to delay it if I'm not even going to be here

Last night I targeted fitz because I scumread him for reasons already listed.

My switch is on. Will give priority if necessary, but I might not get back to you for awhile.

[I Am Innocent]

why would i lie that i targeted someone who literally died

Because you screwed up.

[I Am Innocent]

So far I don't see how IAI gambit would make sense as town.

He claimed he would jail one of {me, KC} if Nos was lynched. However, any of us would still try to nightkill someone and IAI might falseclear the scum here.

I was planning on coming clean during twilight, at that point I would have been confirmed town and hopefully had figured out the last scum.

#backfired

[I Am Innocent]

oh i see what you mean

going into the night (4) i didnt think my switch was off

i submitted and action and the mod said "lol what are you doing"
and i said i submitted a toggle and assumed he didnt see it or forgot

which is why at the start of the day i was tryna call him out cause i was like "dude wtf"

Except twice in the game already you claim you had notifications from the mod saying your switch changed, so no notification and you expect us to believe that you thought your switch status changed?

[I Am Innocent]

Congrats town on the win. BV, I wish someone else would have replaced in Lol!

Said my apologies in the mafia thread, but I'll reiterate them here. I made awful choices, and had my teammates make awful choices too, so this loss is on me. I hate making excuses, but the open setup had me so flipping scared throughout the whole game!!!

Thanks kunk for modding, your setups always are fun!

[I Am Innocent]

Also, @IAI, when I replaced in, I was actually hoping you were town here too and we'd lynch scum together again but unfortunately not.

Yeah was banking on some friendshipbias but alas I should've known better with you lol.