Large Normal 241: Random Pictures and Other Stuff | Endgame

[Frogsterking]

why gamma as town would wanna move the day along too quickly..?

I want to hear Gamma address this.

[Frogsterking]

Okay I feel like I understand how you play a little better now, marci.

im curious now

About what? How you play?

[Frogsterking]

yes

I think you play quirky. I think there's a solving intent behind some of it.

[Frogsterking]

yes

I think you play quirky. I think there's a solving intent behind some of it.

I'm reading into it a little bit and thinking you have a Slayer's Gambit thing going on sometimes.

I guess it's anti-town for me to point it out, but also you asked.

[Frogsterking]

Frogster, I thought that this was a particularly proactive and useful post from S_S:

the S_S progression was kinda ??? and i don't really buy that he went from, like, 'no compelling reason to vote ss' to doing it so quickly.

what's the scum motivation for doing this?

Okay is that it?

You just asked me to quote anything, so I did.

If you wanted more than one thing you should have asked for more than one thing

This feels like a scum post to me.

[Frogsterking]

I think S_S, Dease, Dann is a tight scum list.

[Frogsterking]

yes

can people who naked voted me please drop their reasons for voting tnx

TOWN

[Frogsterking]

my main reason was that i trust most of the people pushing the wagon and idk i could be wrong on my townread

i think your pushes on datisi and scamper are both kinda questionable, but i went back and looked at large 238 and i remember feeling kinda similar to your push on ari there so i dunno

i don't feel very confident in any other direction atm, so i am ok being a sheep

Fire do you want to expand on this in a way that sounds a little bit less suspicious?

[Frogsterking]

a lot closer to your usual scum game

Is this a true statement?

[Frogsterking]

Tilt Wagon?

[Frogsterking]

D2 tilt wagon?

[Frogsterking]

okay

ill be back i really need to get off this site

if what i did was 2 anti-town 4 everyone then i guess that's my bad i just wanted to be part of this game

so ur plan for "being part of the game" was to antagonize me for suspecting u and dare me to push u, and that was somehow supposed to get u involved, rather than just catching up like a normal person


suffice to say i am skeptical that was something u actually thought up

Is it a scumcase or a D2 tilt wagon?

[Frogsterking]

what is a tilt wagon?

HEM

[Frogsterking]

what is a tilt wagon?

When the towncore goes on tilt and throws away the D2 kill.

[Frogsterking]

what is a tilt wagon?

When the towncore goes on tilt and throws away the D2 kill.

why do you think the scumreads on HEM are bad?

It seems like the scum reads come from tilt. I think HEM is good enough to pass for D2.

[Frogsterking]

what is a tilt wagon?

When the towncore goes on tilt and throws away the D2 kill.

why do you think the scumreads on HEM are bad?

It seems like the scum reads come from tilt. I think HEM is good enough to pass for D2.

What do you mean by "good enough"?

Townie enough

[Frogsterking]

My reservation with HEM is that I'm not sure that their play here is trying all that hard to look like town, which is the sense I have gotten from seeing HEM as scum previously. Here it seems more like they are just mucking around and having fun without actually caring all that much.
I'm interested in seeing the reaction to the wagon, but not all that interested in seeing HEM eliminated before that.

Posts like this make me think HEM will flip Town.

PEdit:

IDK I guess nothing changed? This feels like a go-nowhere question.

[Frogsterking]

Quoting a post and saying "TOWN" seems like a different level of confidence from "good enough to pass for D2" (the latter of which implies that you would more likely consider eliminating HEM on a later day).

Also if you're basing your reads off the assumption that I'm scum, why not push for my elimination? HEM was more widely townread than me on Day 1. Maybe you could make it happen.

If you're accusing me of having wavering levels of self-efficacy then you caught me red-handed.

[Frogsterking]

If you're accusing me of having wavering levels of self-efficacy then you caught me red-handed.

Can you rephrase this without any psych jargon?

Nah google it

[Frogsterking]

If you're accusing me of having wavering levels of self-efficacy then you caught me red-handed.

Can you rephrase this without any psych jargon?

(It doesn't make much sense tbh)

Sounds like a reading comprehension problem then.

[Frogsterking]

Also if you're basing your reads off the assumption that I'm scum, why not push for my elimination?

IDK because I'm not that bad? This feels like another go-nowhere question.

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: Dannflor

I'll see if this picks up

[Frogsterking]

yes

I think you play quirky. I think there's a solving intent behind some of it.

I'm reading into it a little bit and thinking you have a Slayer's Gambit thing going on sometimes.

I guess it's anti-town for me to point it out, but also you asked.

How would marci play differently as scum do you think

(this isn't related but I hate the idea of slayer's gambit because yes scum might jump on you for being scummy but town might also jump on you for being scummy and it would be understandable since you played like you weren't town)

I think she would seem less solvey and more conscious of her image maybe? There were a few times I thought marci seemed like they were trying to find the scum in this game.

[Frogsterking]

hence why its a gambit and like lvl 1 play

Kinda silly

Ironic because I think you also play that way

[Frogsterking]

Fwiw nero I understand why you're suspicious of Gamma slot but I thought similarly about her last game I played - at time she seemed like sitting on the sidelines and only fanning the flames of conflicts iirc, like calling both sides scummy - and she ended up being town, so I don't really want to scumread him for that

pedit: can you point me to where marci has been solvy in a way that hasn't been trivial to fake? I might have missed something

I can try lmao, they were easy to miss

[Frogsterking]

me when dannflor doesnt continue the convo

Trying to sort Dannflor

ngl i feel bad for gamma LOL

kinda back to wanting to wagon marci or gamma but the only reason i have is them just not being present

im here wtf

i literally told u im interested in talking w u but u never started a convo

Marci what do you want to talk about

anything bb u start the convo

what are your feelings towards gamma?

i thought maybe gamma might be scum earlier in the game, because i felt this weird gut feeling like gamma has been lying to me lately. but when i saw gammas emotional response to the bs i did on d1 towards her, i thought that seemed similar to a town gamma game i've played w her in. but now i dont like how gamma jumped onto the hem vote bcuz i dont get why gamma as town would wanna move the day along too quickly..? but then i thought something hem posted just now seemed weird but am unsure what it means for hem.
i think maybe im still inclined to call gamma townie but i think it would be a bit downgraded on the tier list.

wbu

Trying to sort Gamma

u give a readslist first datisi

datisi deadass give a readslist and ill match the effort

Trying to sort Datisi

lions who do i scumread

who should i iso

zzz

I don't get why you have Smart as town

you've been scum with him before, do you see any differences in his play here from HDP

i dont remember sorry
i think smsrts easier to read as game goes on though!!

for why i said smarts town
im mostly just bsing most of my posts and saying things i think of asi think of them. a post smart made i liked.

Trying to sort Smart

if i made a wall post would u read it out of support?

Yes BTW

___

There is stuff I saw earlier maybe? Overall I think marci's iso has been improving since D1

[Frogsterking]

pedit: can you point me to where marci has been solvy in a way that hasn't been trivial to fake? I might have missed something

I'm not sure how others might assess #4579 in terms of being trivial to fake. I feel like marci is a slot I've implicitly trusted for a while now.

[Frogsterking]

hence why its a gambit and like lvl 1 play

Kinda silly

Ironic because I think you also play that way

EXCUSE ME

You don't understand my plan

I turn so scummy, i pierce bottom and turn obvtown.

Oh okay I got you.

[Frogsterking]

I really do think HAM is town thog

Why?

[Frogsterking]

I really do think HAM is town thog

Why?

Naked unvote is probably what mafia would't do when starting being in focus and other arrogant things.
Overall..................... yeah, it's not like i could bet for SURE, but i more likely to vote someone else.

I mean that's a hell of a reason. Did you do any of those ISOs yet?

[Frogsterking]

I think shea looks worst out of this, GL depends on how reachy his case is, fire too

These are people who swore i was town just before scamper rallied the wagon

The fact there's so many of you makes me think its just me though

Frogsterking and Nero maybe whiteknight

Nero was scumreading me before
Frogster I can understand since i believe he scumreads shea

Datisi townbinned me too and now that im inactive is talking trash behind my back smh

Ydrasse why did you vote me if you townbinned me too

The alternate take is it's just me and i should be looking at who whiteknighted or held off their vote for no good reason

I thought this part looked genuine

[Frogsterking]

and idk, hem obviously did not take me seriously and did not believe i could actually get a wagon on him when he started taunting me

I don't understand what scum!HEM is really hoping to accomplish here. I think I see a narrative forming where scum!HEM tries to undermine town!scamper and town!scamper cuts scum!HEM off early and gets him run up for it. I'm not convinced that narrative is reality though.

[Frogsterking]

The alternate take is it's just me and i should be looking at who whiteknighted or held off their vote for no good reason

i think this is what id be more likely to do as scum if you're town here, scum prob get stuck worried about looking consistent with their past reads

there's also just not a ton of worlds where i feel like scum would find it necessary to flip their position in order to get on your wagon

especially one that is more or less led by people who are p towncore, that's just gonna attract more random townies to join so scum don't even have to help

I don't feel like I can explain why adequately but I hate this post

IIoA maybe

[Frogsterking]

HEM whenever you return and have time to play I'd like a direct response to 4033

I'd also like to see a direct response to this with an emphasis on de-escalation.

[Frogsterking]

4056 seems like a good post to me?

[Frogsterking]

FoS dannflor and xoxelf unless someone can meta town send them for me. I have some limited ability to meta the slot dann replaced into (Eiralox) and their play here is pretty scum for them. I have no ability to meta xo they just look like frozen scum to me.

hey so btw i was reminded of this - was there ever an explanation from u as to why eiraloxs play was scum indicative for him?

Yeah I've played with him a couple times, he's pretty game solvey as Town

[Frogsterking]

FoS dannflor and xoxelf unless someone can meta town send them for me. I have some limited ability to meta the slot dann replaced into (Eiralox) and their play here is pretty scum for them. I have no ability to meta xo they just look like frozen scum to me.

hey so btw i was reminded of this - was there ever an explanation from u as to why eiraloxs play was scum indicative for him?

Yeah I've played with him a couple times, he's pretty game solvey as Town

And prefers to lurk as scum.

[Frogsterking]

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=89826

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=89739

I played these two games and read part of another Normal he was in which lasted three Days.

[Frogsterking]

he literally hasn't rolled scum in a game on MS though, so i'm not sure where ur getting the notion he lurks as scum...?

VOTE: UltimateDetectiveKiriGiri

As an under-the-radar flyer myself u've been flying under the radar far too much for my tastes.

I was UDKG in that game

[Frogsterking]

And scum

[Frogsterking]

he literally hasn't rolled scum in a game on MS though, so i'm not sure where ur getting the notion he lurks as scum...?

I'm definitely making an inductive leap

[Frogsterking]

his posts in 2279 are basically nonsense (and that was ongoing when u replaced in so its

I didn't replace into 2279, I had a correct read on Eir the entire game even against heavy resistance and when he read flipped on me.

[Frogsterking]

his posts in 2279 are basically nonsense (and that was ongoing when u replaced in so its

I didn't replace into 2279, I had a correct read on Eir the entire game even against heavy resistance and when he read flipped on me.

And Eir correctly called 2/3 scum on D1 once he started drinking.

[Frogsterking]

his posts in 2279 are basically nonsense (and that was ongoing when u replaced in so its

I didn't replace into 2279, I had a correct read on Eir the entire game even against heavy resistance and when he read flipped on me.

And Eir correctly called 2/3 scum on D1 once he started drinking.

#241, #245, #247 should be the posts I'm referring to from 2279.

I'm picturing an aggressive game solver who gets tilted or discouraged too much and posts better when they're drunk.

The 8 posts the slot made before replacing out don't look that way to me.

[Frogsterking]

i mean when u replaced into this game u couldn't have know he was town in that one...

Correct, and you can see I defended Eir being Town quite a bit in that game, based off a single completed game, so that should tell you my baseline level of confidence on being able to meta read Eir.

[Frogsterking]

thats not what u said, tho

I have some limited ability to meta the slot dann replaced into (Eiralox) and their play here is pretty scum for them.

what u said is this

How is that not exactly what I'm doing? Like I'm meta-ing the slot and the slot play is AI for scum.

[Frogsterking]

I have some limited ability to meta

? I was feel like I was pretty up-front from the beginning.

[Frogsterking]

Frog is basically saying that Eirlox not being try hardy or verbose is not like his town meta and is deducing that he is scum.

Basically yeah. And there wasn't a formality to the opener like they were a private eye taking on a new case.

[Frogsterking]

further, what is ur actual case on dann as it presently stands?

I think he's lurk!scum who isn't incompetent and made a few analytical/genuine sounding posts on D2 to get the heat off his back.

[Frogsterking]

then why did u say "he lurks as scum", something that is completely unverifiable?

IDK, I like to live on the edge? I think I qualified myself appropriately by stating I have a limited ability to meta him up-front. I think I stated what I believe to be helpful and true with conviction.

[Frogsterking]

idk does anyone really white knight HEM besides Frogster?

I see S_S calling HEM slightly town and insinuating HEM vs. scamper is TvT but not much beyond those things

I think there's probably more scum off-wagon if HEM is town lol

I agree with everything fire just said

mm then again ig scum dann would probably be making a specific effort to have a trajectory of paranoia on me

and it's maybe kinda weird how quickly he backed off when i don't think i really did anything that would defuse the paranoia he had

I don't think you actually did anything that scummy in the first place

I think one post triggered it and it was further exacerbated by you moving your vote to me

after the initial emotional reaction wore off I still definitely have some paranoia about you but I don't feel willing to thunderdome

kinda back to wanting to wagon marci or gamma but the only reason i have is them just not being present

im here wtf

i literally told u im interested in talking w u but u never started a convo

Marci what do you want to talk about

anything bb u start the convo

what are your feelings towards gamma?

I just find

Ate

inherently scummy. I hated when Dann did it, I hated when Gamma did it, I hated when TSQ. I am so full of hate.

I apologize for this nero

I didn't like that I did that

I feel like Dann's slipped into active lurking? These are the most recent posts.

[Frogsterking]

those posts look perfectly fine?

again your literal case for your strongest scumread who your vote is currently on, on day 2 with a flipped scum, is "he's active lurking"

like...how is that a real read?

IDK I think killing active lurkers D2 is a good bet, are you disagreeing that Dann is active lurking?

[Frogsterking]

fire I feel like you have felt the need to overexplain your vote switches this game

do you feel like you tend to do that or am I just seeing things

i think i always do that

do you think there's, like, an anxiety to be town read behind that?

maybe yea, i am v self conscious and v anxious all the time lol

i think maybe also like i want to explain myself fully bc i don't want to be misinterpreted? or something like that

Really tho?

[Frogsterking]

UNVOTE: Dannflor

[Frogsterking]

Really tho?

you would know this if you'd done your psych analysis already like you promised, frog!!

I can tell you that anger/hostility and self-consciousness are correlated with each other and you're claiming to be susceptible to one and not the other. It's completely possible but makes me raise my eyebrows a bit.

Spoiler: survey

"Get angry easily" = 1

"Take charge" = 1

"Make people feel welcome" = 4

"Like music" = 5

"Like to tidy up" = 2

"Like to visit new places" = 3

"Feel comfortable around people" = 1

"Interested in many things" = 4

"Love order and regularity" = 3

"Am afraid to draw attention to myself" = 5

"Enjoy being part of a large crowd" = 2

"Cheer people up" = 4

"Lose my temper" = 1

"Enjoy the beauty of nature" = 5

"Enjoy thinking about things" = 5

"Cheat to get ahead" = 2

"Feel desperate" = 4

"Rarely overindulge" = 3

"Easily resist temptations" = 2

"Have a high opinion of myself" = 1

"Waste my time" = 4

"Need a push to get started" = 5

"Have little to contribute" = 2

"Keep my cool" = 5

"Avoid crowds" = 2

"Turn my back on others" = 2

[Frogsterking]

#4877 sounds vaguely like what I'm expecting town!SS to sound like.

[Frogsterking]

Frogster Things

Like playing the game well? What

[Frogsterking]

Frogster Things

Like playing the game well? What

You are often difficult to understand and DV obviously knows this and has made comments around it, eg

I think with Frogster there is risk of dismissing him as town because he’s weird

The idea that I run away with games or get Townread because I'm "weird" is an incredibly inaccurate statement.

[Frogsterking]

the claim isnt either of those things its that you get ignored.

and honestly I vibe with that because personally I kind of town binned you to the best of my ability and then started not paying that much attention to you.

I feel like that's pretty normal though? I thought I was weird lmao.

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: Dease

I'm not inflexible:


My cold read on Dease is that they're not vindictive, and I think Dease probably cares little enough about a single loss (Large Normal 238) that it's unlikely to cloud their reads. If my assumptions are correct then Dease progression on my slot is ...bad.

and im just not really convinced that he comes out of that wanting to vote frog? and then stays there while there's wagons on multiple other people in his poe, when he says he doesn't care much which one gets eliminated?

IF Dease or someone else can show that Town!Dease has a tendency to be vindictive, I can believe that Town!Dease was temporarily biased because of their prior experience with me.

[Frogsterking]

ari also had him in the category just above groupscum in 2262 for those that care about that sort of thing :>

My theory is that it's the consistent absence of getting Towned which is scummy.

I mean, yeah it's possible. Like I agree that he's not doing much and he could be scum, I just sorta felt like VP piggybacking on DV's shit push on me made him sorta town, idk.

ok nero the thing with that tho is that vp generally replies as he reads and catches up. so he hadn't gotten to DV's post 326 when he posted 362, since it was about 199

so he didn't know that DV had already commented on that

This is an excellent point IMO. I think this is Town AI for fire.

[Frogsterking]

Lmao. Are you going to do the other ISOs, Enchant?

[Frogsterking]

eh fuck it, VOTE: fireisredsir

I'll be there for a deas wagon if we need me at dl.

I'm going to remember this by the way

[Frogsterking]

Lmao. Are you going to do the other ISOs, Enchant?

I am getting annoyed by them pretty fast somewhat.

Like i can, but i will be pissed to do anything else.

What's causing the anger?

[Frogsterking]

and i am increasingly having Concerns about frog

What's causing the Concerns?

[Frogsterking]

Dease is probably scum.

[Frogsterking]

eh fuck it, VOTE: fireisredsir

I'll be there for a deas wagon if we need me at dl.

i don't really think dv is scum but i'm just kind of tired

and i am increasingly having Concerns about frog

VOTE: S_S

I want these responses to be looked into after Dease flips

[Frogsterking]

I guess my biggest reason for thinking deas might be scum outside of the obvious not being here or seeming to care very much is like entirely tone. He has this sort of matter of fact I can't believe I have to explain this to you tone that feels not earnest and I associate it with scum quite a bit.

+1

I think there's also an absence of anger or indignation I would expect to see in a Townie being wrongfully accused in general.

PEdit:

I played with Dease and read one or two games they were in and I thought they came across as earnest.

[Frogsterking]

I guess my biggest reason for thinking deas might be scum outside of the obvious not being here or seeming to care very much is like entirely tone. He has this sort of matter of fact I can't believe I have to explain this to you tone that feels not earnest and I associate it with scum quite a bit.

+1

I think there's also an absence of anger or indignation I would expect to see in a Townie being wrongfully accused in general.

PEdit:

I played with Dease and read one or two games they were in and I thought they came across as earnest.

I don’t think I could bring myself to feel angry about anything, let alone this game

Aw shucks

[Frogsterking]

#5085 is well written, unfortunately it's from scum I THINK.

[Frogsterking]

S_S I was initially scumreading less because there were some early signs of him trying to have influence on the game, but that has since fizzled out into nothing and an apparent contendedness to just let things happen around him. Though it has been a while since his last post, so I'm keen to see where things go from here.

Translation: I fell off + L + ratio.

My motivation definitely comes in fits and starts. I'm obviously more contented with how things are going than when I was the top wagon, so I think that should be understandable? But if there's anything in particular you wanted to hear from me, I'm always happy to respond to queries.

I could use more information about how you search for AI stuff.

[Frogsterking]

Imagine claiming vigilante and then replacing.

Yea i know, emergency.
But it's still hilarious.

I'd prefer to see the last two ISOs as well.

[Frogsterking]

I claim Ninja

*Disappear*

Lmao

[Frogsterking]

@all

FYI one argument in favor of flipping Dease is that I think it will help to sort obscure, since their main play (aside from lurking) has been their scum case of Dease. If Dease flips scum (which I think is pretty likely) then we know to evaluate obscure's progression for bus potential, and if Dease flips Town (which I'm pretty skeptical of) then I think obscure should just get shot because I think they're probably lurk scum who parked a vote on Dease.

I still believe there is likely one or more scum slot somewhere between Dann, S_S and Shea, and I can't tell who it is.

[Frogsterking]

@all

FYI one argument in favor of flipping Dease is that I think it will help to sort obscure, since their main play (aside from lurking) has been their scum case of Dease. If Dease flips scum (which I think is pretty likely) then we know to evaluate obscure's progression for bus potential, and if Dease flips Town (which I'm pretty skeptical of) then I think obscure should just get shot because I think they're probably lurk scum who parked a vote on Dease.

I still believe there is likely one or more scum slot somewhere between Dann, S_S and Shea, and I can't tell who it is.

@all tldr;

I think Dease is findable is scum whereas obscure is just suspicious, and there is AI information we can get on obscure by flipping Dease, but not the other way around.

[Frogsterking]

I could use more information about how you search for AI stuff.

My primary tool is asking myself whether, if someone did a particular behavior deliberately, they would expect to be townread for it. Generally scum will not do things that they anticipate will get them scumread, whereas town are far more likely to not care.

This method does not work in reverse-- plenty of townies will do things that they expect may net them townreads. In fact I find there are very few things that are likely to come from scum that are highly unlikely to come from town, which is why my scum leanings are almost always very mild, where they do exist.

I mean that sounds pretty helpful, is there any reason you can't do a comparative analysis using this method on the skitter/obscure and Dease slots? Neither one has made a lot of posts.

[Frogsterking]

I claim Ninja

*Disappear*

Lmao

Unless S_S is deep in thought constructing a reply (in which case: foot insert mouth), I think S_S counterclaims Ninja

[Frogsterking]

I can try. It doesn't work very well on people who are new (e.g. obscure) or who are extremely skilled as scum (e.g. skitter). It also is less effective on posts that were made before I was in the game, as I won't have the context to evaluate how it might be interpreted. But I can look at their ISO's and see if I can come up with anything.

Nice timing lol.

*Eats foot*

Thank you, I feel that moves the game forward in more ways than one.

[Frogsterking]

Generally scum will not do things that they anticipate will get them scumread, whereas town are far more likely to not care.

This makes a lot of sense too with a concept I've been trying to puzzle out (scum reading based on what's being left unsaid.)

[Frogsterking]

Nero, you seem quite bothered by my posts. Do you think I’m scum?

probably, yes

probably, yes

Cool

UNVOTE:

????

Your scumread on me seems superficial but not inauthentic

I mildly like this sequence from DV

I think you're going through Dease iso right now so no rush/pressure to respond, when you're done though I would like to hear a little bit about why this (and anything else) stand out to you.

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: obscure

Kill someone already

Did you ignore my tldr or do you disagree?

[Frogsterking]

I would like to hear a little bit about why this (and anything else) stand out to you.

Well, it stands out because it's weird, and doesn't make a lot of sense on the face.

Nero is absolutely not the type of person to townread this or take it well at all, and if he was actually setting up a push on Nero then he ruined it.

This is interesting. I'm moving right now (new place) but I'm planning on looking into this asap.

[Frogsterking]

like that time when Datisi shot an IC

you weren't even in that game, what the fuck

oh yeah that one famous time datisi shot an IC i know about that who doesn't know about that

I didn't know about that? What? How come I never heard about this after I blew up an IC in Datisi's Saw room setup?

[Frogsterking]

By the way: I now Townread obscure

[Frogsterking]

idk I get that he just claimed

FUCK

I didn't see that

[Frogsterking]

i think we have to kill you rather than risk outing another PR

idk what to do with obscure tbh

might just throw them in the hem pool of 'they won't endgame and can die at some point unless they get confirmed'

i sort of think at this point we should just kill someone who says "feel free to just off me"

I think this is really anti Town reasoning

[Frogsterking]

I probably have displayed more of a "pissed off" vibe here than usual, and I apologise for that.

Why?

[Frogsterking]

i mean maybe but idk what else to do with that slot? do you think they *should* endgame?

That's contingent on Dease's alignment for me.

[Frogsterking]

ughhhh idk whatever not gonna push for deas anymore but its still my preferred elim

Why?

[Frogsterking]

hmm

maybe both wagons are right

Why would both wagons be right as opposed to wrong?

[Frogsterking]

ughhhh idk whatever not gonna push for deas anymore but its still my preferred elim

Why?

bc im bad at this game

That's self-consciousness and/or anxiety, can you use logic to explain what caused you to feel self-conscious and/or anxious?

[Frogsterking]

I'm

guessing

that #5185 and #5186 are within Dease's scum range?

UNVOTE: Dease

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: Dease

I'm looking for examples of scum!Dease wifom and I haven't found any yet because I haven't found any scum games of Dease where they actually get this close to being run up. Yes, he's that good.

So...I think revoting here is fully justified, and I'll look at more games when I get a chance. If anyone can help out with this I would love that (I'm still moving.)

asking people to use logic to explain emotion is... an interesting way of questioning people

Because it's enabling? What?

[Frogsterking]

eh fuck it, VOTE: fireisredsir

I'll be there for a deas wagon if we need me at dl.

I'm going to remember this by the way

[Frogsterking]

Large Normal 221, on D3 within roughly posts #2500 - #2800, Dease pumps out some wifom to survive which is comparable (at a glance) to the most recent batch of posts Dease wrote.

[Frogsterking]

Who is right? I read the first and figured it's an apathetic game where the wagon's moving over and over and yet going nowhere at the same time. But the second implies Ausuka/dann/whoever might be bruteforcing a decision

IIoA

[Frogsterking]

Dann's just a suspicious guy though. Obscure sort of seems like town i like 5148 Dann and the wagon on obscure lean worse off

I do not have an opinion on Frog, i no longer need to token scumread someone

I have a theory that humans are unable to effectively sort more than like 5 slots at a time anyway so I'm not offended. I'd appreciate if you read my posts though on another night.

[Frogsterking]

Tweet tweet

How varied or wide is Tweet's scum range?

Like, how many divergent styles have they played?

[Frogsterking]

Oh lmao that's the extent of Tweet's catchup. I thought I was a couple pages behind.

VOTE: Tweet

[Frogsterking]

hiya MT

are you evil?

Tweet is making your rep-in bleed Town by comparison.

[Frogsterking]

like if I'm musing here one of the things I really value in a testing partner for magic, the game I play competitively, is the ability

*Interest spikes*

[Frogsterking]

like if I'm musing here one of the things I really value in a testing partner for magic, the game I play competitively, is the ability to differentiate degrees of certainty for what they thing. I.e. when they tell me "I think this matchup is favorable." I decide how much to trust their opinion based on how confident they are in it if I don't have the time to test the matchup myself. So when someone gives me all their opinions with the same level of certainty it becomes hard for me to weed out signal from noise and I find it hard to know how to evaluate their thoughts.

I have the same issue with you in this game. It feels like your certainty of your statements is always turned up to 11 and I don't really know what to do with that in terms of integrating them into my own thoughts. I think thats why I vibe so much with ausuka this game because I find her thought process in terms of how much she thinks things to be really easy to evaluate.

that was at frog in case I wasnt being clear.

I think this is good feedback, I think it will take practice but I think I can incorporate this. Thank you!

[Frogsterking]

Did tweet disapear?

Sweet, don't say any more, pretty sure you didn't have a PT to catch you up.

I meant that it came across like Frog was saying you were rushing, but from you and whoevers it looked more like the game was stagnating. It was more or less an open ended question as to who was right

I'm still sort of wondering what you hoped to gain from this question

I feel like this is a question where you'd get more value out of simply skimming a little further and forming your own opinion?

I believe it's possible that Tweet was thread flaking upon repping-in to catch up in the scum PT, and they threw the above statement out in an attempt to look like they were reading the main thread. I have a LOW level of certainty this technically happened.

[Frogsterking]

Did tweet disapear?

Sweet, don't say any more, pretty sure you didn't have a PT to catch you up.

I meant that it came across like Frog was saying you were rushing, but from you and whoevers it looked more like the game was stagnating. It was more or less an open ended question as to who was right

I'm still sort of wondering what you hoped to gain from this question

I feel like this is a question where you'd get more value out of simply skimming a little further and forming your own opinion?

I believe it's possible that Tweet was thread flaking upon repping-in to catch up in the scum PT, and they threw the above statement out in an attempt to look like they were reading the main thread. I have a LOW level of certainty this technically happened.

5245 is the post I believe Tweet

possibly

threw out to look like they were reading the main thread while catching up in the scum PT. I quoted 5301 on accident, though I'm in agreement with what Dann is saying in 5301. I believe with a LOW level of certainty 5301 and the related sequence is +Town for evidence of Dann not faking the scum huntin'

[Frogsterking]

Hey CSF! Did you find what you were looking for about Dease and obscure?

[Frogsterking]

Hey CSF! Did you find what you were looking for about Dease and obscure?

No not really, I haven't found the part where those wagons began. This game could really use some more VCs. What are your reads on those slots?

I'm kind of reading backwards, and one cursory thought I had was that the reasons listed for scumreading Gamma in 5085 were kind of weak considering he's their top scumread.

I've been pushing Dease hard, I started scumreading them with a

high

level of certainty (which has likely been

too high

) for their rationale of their push on me in 3333.

I've been defending obscure, mostly indirectly by pushing Dease. Recently I defended them harder because I Town with a

moderate

level of certainty the indignation in 5159 for example.

Now that I'm thinking about it though, I think I now have a

low

level of certainty about the indignation indicating Town for obscure, because I have played with an English teacher (or something) on this website before, who faked indignation effectively while shedding off pressure.

[Frogsterking]

5370 shall be named the "fireisscum" post.

[Frogsterking]

UNVOTE: Tweet

CSF how caught up are you?

[Frogsterking]

Frogsters unvote feels performative.

At what level of certainty?

[Frogsterking]

I'm trying to sunmarize the D1 content from Gamma which could be AI so you can make your own assessment.

[Frogsterking]

@CSF

There was a fair amount on the Gamma slot D1 which might be AI. I'm on mobile which I'll explain again later so the below is mostly but not completely in reverse-chronological order.

VOTE: gamma emerald
Fuck this game.

can u not

im still not seeing scum!gamma

What do you see when you read Gamma's iso and what do you think motivates Gamma in this game?

i think shes hanging back and commenting/giving input on things that catch her attention. her analysis is brief but i can feel shes thinking abt things. shes not trying to take a big role or influence things too strongly and has been unbothered by pressure or the suggestion shes not doing enough.


i felt like she played fairly similarly in 2276 where i was scum and she was town. i dont think her playing in the background this game is scum-ai. even looking at the scum game from last year u mentioned, i would describe her play there as "performative" and i dont get the same feeling from her this game, at all.

Scamper was influential in my reconsidering on Gamma D1. I forgot about the self-vote thing. It's possible Gamma did that too in one of my scum!Gamma games but I can't remember.

Gamma vs marci is probably TvT there.

I recall GL also Towned Gamma at this point. 2278 thru 2404 is the Gamma vs marci thing and it includes Gamma's self-vote.

Uhh Gamma traitor maybe? Or Town on tilt? Or scum playing better than they have in the past? My instincts are both to Town and scum read Gamma and that's the best I can rationalize that. I feel like Gamma is working within the PoE laid out by the Town core but in the worst way possible. I've seen Gamma make three tells now which I can link directly to their scum meta.

This was the second time I seriously considered Gamma scum. This was in reaction to Gamma's read list here:

Trust: scamper, Ausuka, Aristeia, xofelf, ydrasse, fireisredsir, marcistar
Middle ground: DeasVail, Firebringer, Nero Cain, VP Baltar, Dannflor, GuiltyLion, Irrelephant11
Distrust: ConManMick, Datisi, humaneatingmonkey, Frogsterking, obscure

IIRC I was BoPing Gamma for this read list. There was a fair amount before this:

I'm pretty sure that scum gamma has clapped back at me when I've caught him b4.

Has Gamma's scum game improved significantly over the past year?

Yeah I guess Gamma is Town after all.

b/c I'm scum reading him? prob fair my reads are shit and always wrong

No, I thought they would be afraid of you if they were scum.

Yeah I guess Gamma is Town after all.

The above comment was a conclusion to my first push on Gamma which I've got quoted below. Nero was influential in reinstituting my suspicion on Gamma D1.

Sorry, the quotes are about to switch to chronological order, I'm on mobile because the wifi isn't set up at my new place yet.

VOTE: Gamma Emerald this is a scum slot I think

HEMs early stuff I thought town and also VP but a few things struck me as off from both and I would like to look back properly at both.
I don't particularly think FB is town but I can wait for him to kick into gear for now and he's done enough that I am not auto scumreading so I don't want to vote there right now.
I am interested in seeing more of Xof's iso dives to see what kind of content is there
I will look at some stuff in the morning. I'm trying to just chuck down rough notes so I don't have to start fresh so I appreciate this is a bit halfhazard.

I don't like how cagey this feels and I don't like the excuses for:

• *Not expanding on the VP and HEM reads
  *Posting in order to use the thread as a notepad

At this rate I'll say there's probably a scum in Gamma, xo, Conman

I also see Frog and obscure being pally, kinda makes me think I’m onto something
VOTE: Frogsterking
I’ll go here first because I think there’s better traction here

This is the reaction I was expecting from a scum!Gamma.

I also see Frog and obscure being pally, kinda makes me think I’m onto something
VOTE: Frogsterking
I’ll go here first because I think there’s better traction here

This is the reaction I was expecting from a scum!Gamma.

Based on what, exactly?

You reacted this way in a game we played over a year ago which you don't remember.

Efobbbio?

Yes. D2.

Efobbbio?

Yes. D2.

thats L-1 claim

I’m calling your bluff

I'm interpreting Gamma's silence here as being caught.

Efobbbio?

Yes. D2.

thats L-1 claim

I’m calling your bluff

I'm interpreting Gamma's silence here as being caught.

What else is there to say until/unless I fact check that game?

It looks like Gamma knows I'm not bluffing and is frozen...

If we quickhammer Gamma here it will force the scum team to flip 1 player for us before they can infer how the dayplay will shape out D2.

Not a reaction to you actually
Maybe get over yourself?

You were rolling your eyes at...the votecount?

At this point Gamma's play was very reminiscent of Gamma's scum play from games I played with them a long time ago. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=84025&start=2075 (Cinder Block) and viewtopic.php?f=2&t=85345 (Efo bio)

Gamma's play between these two games was quite different and it's possible Gamma switched tactics this game once I told them I remembered they OMGUS voted me D2 in Efobio or whatever it's name is. Gamma disappeared right after that but never addressed it and I

lowkey

believe they were reading the game during that time and lied about doing so in 1768. The sarcastic undermining of an attacker I pointed out afterwards, which Gamma is addressing in 1775, came from their scum game in the other game, Cinderblock. I alt slipped when I pointed it out so it wasn't in my iso:

Unironically, scum!Gamma also reacted this way to me in a

different

game over a year ago which I'm assuming they don't remember.

Bleghfgf

Sorry, account slipped

I don't think it matters whether or not Gamma was responding to myself or to Nero like they claimed, because we were both pushing Gamma, and scum!Gamma reacted to pressure with the single eyeroll smiley post D1 in Cinderblock.

In summary I recognized multiple elements of scum!Gamma and I also saw some

moderately

convincing reasons to believe Gamma was Town (mainly what looked like the TvT with marci.) I've received feedback supporting town!Gamma (mainly from scamper) and scum!Gamma (mainly from Nero.) I don't particularly trust my own judgement on the slot at this point because I've waffled enough times.

If you read this and feel more than a little suspicious of Gamma I prefer to hammer the slot. If you read this and feel only mild suspicion or less, I'm down to go with Dease today and see if Gamma/Tweet can be resolved by night.

[Frogsterking]

i was still considering until she stopped talking, popped back in to claim a very convenient role, then stopped talking again

now i want her dead

Can you do a short comparison of the Town and scum Tweet replace in meta?

[Frogsterking]

I could buy that tweet finds a 200+ page game hard to get interested in but then it's also seems like scum that doesn't want to give anything away

Same. I can also buy that town!Tweet has TPR-ego or w.e you want to call it and doesn't feel pressure to Town it up because they can claim a confirmable role. This is why I want CSF opinion on the Gamma slot and Dats/someone who knows Tweet to post a comparison of Tweet's replace-in meta.

[Frogsterking]

Unless people think I’m scum with the gamma slot…

I'm very open to it.

I’m uh pretty sure tweet is scum and attempts to leave me open as an option seem suspicious

If you are familiar with Tweet you're welcome to post the comparison between their rep-in metas.

[Frogsterking]

because looking for things on mobile is ass, i hope you're happy

Yes to both being happy & looking for things on mobile being ass.

PEdit

I'm about to read the link

[Frogsterking]

Frogster why did you just

town case

a slot you were voting not 30 seconds ago

I don't know to +Town Shea not reading the thread or -Town Shea for trying to interrupt me from consolidating a Town core

[Frogsterking]

It just seems wasteful to consider using an elimination on me instead of almost-certain scum, whose flip could potentially help inform reads on me

This is also inconsistent:

@all

FYI one argument in favor of flipping Dease is that I think it will help to sort obscure, since their main play (aside from lurking) has been their scum case of Dease. If Dease flips scum (which I think is pretty likely) then we know to evaluate obscure's progression for bus potential, and if Dease flips Town (which I'm pretty skeptical of) then I think obscure should just get shot because I think they're probably lurk scum who parked a vote on Dease.

I still believe there is likely one or more scum slot somewhere between Dann, S_S and Shea, and I can't tell who it is.

@all tldr;

I think Dease is findable is scum whereas obscure is just suspicious, and there is AI information we can get on obscure by flipping Dease, but not the other way around.

That is a somewhat convincing argument, every player in the game I've read so far is divided on Deas, the game's lulling to standstill it seems like, and obscure isn't something ppl are happy with since they're just baseline suspicious (from what I'm getting at)))

I noticed that Dann mentioned having a pocket tunnel on obscure earlier in the game, but I also saw him saying obscure never really had any meaningful pressure. So I'm wondering what obscure did earlier on, I'm assuming they just had trouble keeping up and lurked but that's not exactly a basis for Dann wanting his tunnel to be correct, so im probably missing something

I don't believe that Tweet actually thinks this is a convincing argument.

I don't really know if being inconsistent is actually AI, I just thought it was worth pointing out.

[Frogsterking]

I’m not sure what the inconsistency is but I could be missing something

5325 implies you don't believe prioritizing flipping scummy slots based on what they reveal about harder-to-read slots is a convincing argument. In the second paragraph of 5500 you make a very similar argument in favor of what you want yourself.

Also, is Town!Dease this apologetic?

[Frogsterking]

I’m not sure what the inconsistency is but I could be missing something

5325 implies you don't believe prioritizing flipping scummy slots based on what they reveal about harder-to-read slots is a convincing argument. In the second paragraph of 5500 you make a very similar argument in favor of what you want yourself.

Also, is Town!Dease this apologetic?

Oh, no 5325 is me questioning Tweet’s authenticity. Tweet’s posting did not at all give me the impression that they had actually given much thought to what my alignment meant for obscure’s and vice versa. I mean, I also disagree with the specifics of the argument in that case but that’s not as relevant

As for the apologising, I felt silly for having said something that was clearly wrong.

Okay. Is apologizing something you do frequently as Town though? It stood out to me in your scum games I looked at.

[Frogsterking]

I could use more information about how you search for AI stuff.

My primary tool is asking myself whether, if someone did a particular behavior deliberately, they would expect to be townread for it. Generally scum will not do things that they anticipate will get them scumread, whereas town are far more likely to not care.

This method does not work in reverse-- plenty of townies will do things that they expect may net them townreads. In fact I find there are very few things that are likely to come from scum that are highly unlikely to come from town, which is why my scum leanings are almost always very mild, where they do exist.

FTR I Townread S_S for this post with a

very low

level of certainty. I have no rationale for why this may be AI, my read is based purely on intuition.

[Frogsterking]

@CSF

I don't really have an opinion on the eye roll and the other reaction stuff - that seems like something Gamma would say as either alignment. I guess my biggest hang up with the lim was that Tweet claimed something that resolves tomorrow anyway.

But I don't disagree that Tweet's posting has felt flat, so short of flashwagoning someone else, I'm not going to fight it that much

I'm down VOTE: Dease

[Frogsterking]

@CSF

I don't really have an opinion on the eye roll and the other reaction stuff - that seems like something Gamma would say as either alignment. I guess my biggest hang up with the lim was that Tweet claimed something that resolves tomorrow anyway.

But I don't disagree that Tweet's posting has felt flat, so short of flashwagoning someone else, I'm not going to fight it that much

I'm down VOTE: Dease

Breadcrumb is is something

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: Tweet

[Frogsterking]

5118 and 5204 seemed Town AI for me from S_S at a

low

level of certainty.

[Frogsterking]

I'll take that as an implicit sign that you don't care to play with me

thats not what that means at all.

You were scum last game we played annd I was tunneling so rando townie, got no traction and then flipped you.

Where do you get off saying that a vote on you is some venge vote that means I don't want to play with you? It's like you are trying to villainize me.

This argument has a lot of TvT vibes from where I'm sitting.

frog, you ever explained why this was tvt to you?

IIRC I did actually, this lead to a convo where Nero responded like
"oh yeah because my reads are bad" and I said
"No, I think Gamma would be more afraid of you if they were scum" and then Nero was like
"ehh I'm pretty sure Gamma has clapped back at me before as scum."

[Frogsterking]

even tho frog was saying that S_S was scum but we should eliminate him later, which is also an interesting take lol)

Uhh?

[Frogsterking]

I've recently started thinking differently about flips like that. I think SS doesn't give us a lot of info right now and I think that's because SS is playing on anti-spew. So with my current understanding of how the game works, SS is the correct slot to flip if we want to maximize the amount of info Town has at a more crucial point later in the game.

isn't this saying "SS is scum but we should flip him later, not now"?

did i misunderstand that

i see you were voting SS at the time and continued doing so for a while so maybe i did

Why would it benefit us to keep a scum slot around which is playing on anti spew vs others which presumably aren't? This feels like a thinly veiled excuse to throw my name around.

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: TSQ

[Frogsterking]

for due diligence I'll need to check what the context/thread vibe was in terms of people's reads but it's hard for me to buy that there was really any traction on Frog at all at this point.

I don't think so, I thought that comment was weird the first time I read it.

[Frogsterking]

I greatly dislike that neither S_S or obscure were on Gamma/Tweet yesterday and I don't think it takes a genius to realize Tweet was probably being bussed at the time they replaced in.

[Frogsterking]

was probably being bussed at the time they replaced in.

And if not, jumped on at the end like me/Dann/scamper.

[Frogsterking]

was probably being bussed at the time they replaced in.

And if not, jumped on at the end like me/Dann/scamper.

You can add TSQ to this list for obvious reasons.

[Frogsterking]

I greatly dislike that neither S_S or obscure were on Gamma/Tweet yesterday and I don't think it takes a genius to realize Tweet was probably being bussed at the time they replaced in.

that assumes that scum were around to throw gammaslot under the bus, its entirely circumstantial

What do you mean?

[Frogsterking]

I've recently started thinking differently about flips like that. I think SS doesn't give us a lot of info right now and I think that's because SS is playing on anti-spew. So with my current understanding of how the game works, SS is the correct slot to flip if we want to maximize the amount of info Town has at a more crucial point later in the game.

isn't this saying "SS is scum but we should flip him later, not now"?

did i misunderstand that

i see you were voting SS at the time and continued doing so for a while so maybe i did

Why would it benefit us to keep a scum slot around which is playing on anti spew vs others which presumably aren't? This feels like a thinly veiled excuse to throw my name around.

can you please just explain what you meant bc i don't know how else to interpret that

obviously i don't think it would benefit us but i wasn't gonna question it

believe me i would not ever throw your name around and invite interaction unless i thought it was useful to do so

The strategy is to flip scum slots in order of their activity level, or their likelihood to reveal information about their scum team. So leaving a slot like S_S alive to flip until endgame is suboptimal because once we've verified they're scum we don't learn anything. That's why I was pushing Dann D1 instead of Baltar, S_S D2 instead of Dease or w.e, because I want the more active scum slots around to create spew which can be reread at endgame. A slot which is playing on anti spew or lurking won't be creating as much spew. So by saying S_S is playing on anti spew I was saying it's a good bet to flip them now rather than later.

[Frogsterking]

I greatly dislike that neither S_S or obscure were on Gamma/Tweet yesterday and I don't think it takes a genius to realize Tweet was probably being bussed at the time they replaced in.

that assumes that scum were around to throw gammaslot under the bus, its entirely circumstantial

What do you mean?

ovscure had entirely flaked on the game so the argument "scum would have bussed" doesnt, like, do a whole lot for obscures slot

You don't think Tweet would do more if it was their job to carry the team?

[Frogsterking]

You don't think Tweet would do more if it was their job to carry the team?

not really, no

repping into a scum slot in a 200 page game wuld be demotivating for most players and tweet isnt especially motivated as scum. if her teams not doing well i culd easily see her phoning it in. i dont think trying to base reads off that sole event is likely to be too useful

Okay. In other games I've (correctly) suggested the scum were a pair of lurker slots and got shot down so I'll try to be more open minded.

[Frogsterking]

im not, like, saying its *impossible* tweet got bussed by someone but i wouldnt just assume it by default

I'm assuming you didn't care much for S_S responses to my line of questioning when you looked through his iso earlier?

@all

Did anyone compare if this is worse than Town!S_S usually puts out?

[Frogsterking]

GL, do you think S_S responses to my questions (for example 5106 and the quote within) are Townie or do you think I just got pocketed or w.e ?

[Frogsterking]

I also kinda feel like MT is self-aware enough to know that that claim is NOT going to go over well. So either she repped into a doomed slot and just didn't care, or it was planned that that claim would just get her killed faster, indicating pretty heavy bussing.

This is what I assumed, yeah.

Well, I have to imagine that if I were on a scumteam with someone who repped into a slot being wagoned, they would probably look to me for claim advice, and I would probably provide it. Or at least I would say "lol don't claim that, it will be really obvious you are scum" and she is probably the type of person to listen.

this isn't a bad point

Yes and:

My favorite scum tactic is to do something that looks like there'd be absolutely no reason to do it as scum. I probably would have argued more strongly that she should be given a day to confirm? But maybe that would have been too heavy-handed.

I think this is especially unlikely to come from scum.

PEdit:

(also

@ Nero

)

I think it would be hilarious if this was actually Shea's plan and they're super pissed because I stole the hammer from them at the end.

[Frogsterking]

With regards to Shea they're not really my top suspect I just naked voted them because they naked voted me.

[Frogsterking]

I'm pissed as either alignment because it was legitimately fucking rude.

I'm also legitimately sorry Shea, in my head I thought it was funny, it wasn't my intention to make you this upset.

[Frogsterking]

5103 is just him describing his mafia philosophy.

I thought his response might be Town AI? I've been struggling to come up with a rationale for several days now but I feel like there is one.

I'm not great at reading S_S, I chronically scumread him except perhaps HDP where I mistakenly townread him when he was scum, I feel regardless of his alignment he tends to float around and take shots at bad reasoning without doing much proactively himself.

This sounds like a helpful game for me to read before committing further on defending the S_S slot.

[Frogsterking]

Enchant died in the night. He was a Town Universal Backup.

I'm not upset about this by the way! TPRs get shot/blown up, it happens, it's their job

[Frogsterking]

i was starting to distrust frog yesterday because i thought he was pushing people in a potentially disingenuous manner

I can see why you would think that, I'm surprised you jumped to the conclusion I'm scum for pushing Dann rather than Town pushing Dann because I have a good read or I believe it's good because of primacy bias.

[Frogsterking]

FWIW Enchant successfully shot the traitor in the large normal I played with them last, I'm not trying to dis Enchant, I just think TPRs act scummy sometimes because of their role and it gets them killed by Town instead of scum, and we can probably win this game on dayplay anyway.

[Frogsterking]

Unsure.

Didn't really feel like deep diving in light of the Gamma/MT flip when there was a decent chance I got vigged.

It's a sign. You've been given a second chance. It will probably be helpful if you check because apparently it's still a minority of players who believe Tweet was getting bussed hard and I'm unsure how to narrow it down.

[Frogsterking]

The problem with Gamma is that they're in a similar category as HEM, they're Towned by IIRC scamper and also by Ari posthumously.

frogster have you ever done this thing before where you go around asking widely town read players for their reads lists and then average their reads lists as some type of bible??

it strikes me as... really weird. even for you? please let me know if this is something you do with any regularity or you if you just picked it up for this game

if you just decided to do it this game. why?

Do you know anything about how Google's algorithm works yes or no?

[Frogsterking]

The problem with Gamma is that they're in a similar category as HEM, they're Towned by IIRC scamper and also by Ari posthumously.

frogster have you ever done this thing before where you go around asking widely town read players for their reads lists and then average their reads lists as some type of bible??

it strikes me as... really weird. even for you? please let me know if this is something you do with any regularity or you if you just picked it up for this game

if you just decided to do it this game. why?

Do you know anything about how Google's algorithm works yes or no?

why would you not just give me a straight answer here

I'm not impressed and your comment/shade annoyed me

https://www.npr.org/transcripts/430372183

Read if you don't know how backlinks work

[Frogsterking]

Let me know if you have any further questions.

[Frogsterking]

I would like to save myself the trouble of trawling through several of your games

I'm sorry you're annoyed but can you please answer

You read the link lol

[Frogsterking]

ok

Why did you disappear for 30 minutes and then come back and pretend like I didn't post it?

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: Dannflor if scamper has been protecting you because you guys are in a hood/masons then you can hardclaim.

[Frogsterking]

Calling me "weird" is a hookpoint for Dease and pushing me is opportunistic with Shea's whole deal.

[Frogsterking]

Scamper's obviously been protecting Dann for some reason:

I have some limited ability to meta

? I was feel like I was pretty up-front from the beginning.

then why did u say "he lurks as scum", something that is completely unverifiable?


further, what is ur actual case on dann as it presently stands?

no thats fine you dont need to do this here


clearly the point i am trying to make is being lost

dannflor has fucking posts, how is he lurk scum

those posts look perfectly fine?

again your literal case for your strongest scumread who your vote is currently on, on day 2 with a flipped scum, is "he's active lurking"

like...how is that a real read?

those posts look perfectly fine?

again your literal case for your strongest scumread who your vote is currently on, on day 2 with a flipped scum, is "he's active lurking"

like...how is that a real read?

IDK I think killing active lurkers D2 is a good bet, are you disagreeing that Dann is active lurking?

yes

and i am increasingly having Concerns about frog

There's a lot more, I can case it if I have to. I just assumed you guys were Masons/hood.

[Frogsterking]

Not to mention this shit:

oh in that case

VOTE: MT


i would like to reiterate to the vigs i have a clear on datisi so please do not shoot either of us, ty

VOTE: morning tweet

idk morning tweet takes pride in her town game from my conception of her

I would expect at least some effort to leave behind some reads or impact on this game even if she knew her time was short lived

And I’d doubly expect more effort if she was such a valuable role?

I was already voting her but I’m making a statement

I'm going to do a booty dance to every person who kept telling me to stop scum reading gamma because of tone and emotion if MT flips red.

i have pretty much already accepted the loss on that one and that i was too quick to write off scummy behavior as "gamma being gamma" because she was similarly potato-like in another game. for being wrong it desnt hurt too bad ig because its still only day 2 so, like, w/e

Flip Dann -> scamper if Dann's red, IMO

[Frogsterking]

It seems like pretty typical Frogster shenanigans,

honestly

. Feels like it's unlikely to be agenda-motivated in that he thinks the aggregated reads will be wrong,

but it might just be scum-him

trying to come up with something distracting to do.

This is not the kind of post I like to see coming from a slot I recently defended. Yikes.

[Frogsterking]

I don't think like 7 people are going to get you results in any reliable fashion like thousands would, but I understand the idea

UNVOTE: Dannflor

VOTE: S_S

This is the kind of criticism I can live with. Also, the thing with the google algorithm I was referring to is the idea that credibility flows through websites who link to one another, and the most credible websites will be linked to both each other and the majority of other websites (ie wikipedia is linked to by many websites, amazon is linked to by many websites, etc.) So I wasn't necessarily aggregating the reads from the group as much as I was trying to prioritize players who aren't receiving Town reads from the group.

PEdit:

I'm sure there are a number of issues with my idea and the way that I implemented, I don't think that it's "weird" or scummy at all that I would attempt to implement it.

[Frogsterking]

I mean I would say it's an unusual method

maybe I shouldn't have said weird

I'll agree that was reaching but I got excited because I saw a post that was using that method to justify a town read on Gamma and it gave me queasy feelings

Why did you hate that S_S post?

I hate the parts that I bolded:

It seems like pretty typical Frogster shenanigans,

honestly

. Feels like it's unlikely to be agenda-motivated in that he thinks the aggregated reads will be wrong,

but it might just be scum-him

trying to come up with something distracting to do.

This is not the kind of post I like to see coming from a slot I recently defended. Yikes.

The first bold, "honestly", is self-qualifying, and makes me suspect the first sentence is there because S_S doesn't feel entitled to post in the thread. The second bold looks like a hedge on a read Town!S_S should be able to make (S_S has seen me go A-WOL as Town.) It doesn't seem logical or emotionally congruent for the second part to be there unless S_S is afraid to outright disagree with you...which would also imply S_S is afraid to post in the thread. I believe this with more certainty than my other takes, like

low/moderate

certainty this post is scum AI for S_S.

I believe with equal

low/moderate

certainty Town!SS writes 5721 like
"Feels like it's unlikely to be agenda-motivated in that he thinks the aggregated reads will be wrong." and hits send. I believe the additional parts of it that I bolded are AI.

Additionally, I believe on a

very low

certainty level that S_S may be familiar or interested in Francis Galton or Google's algorithm or w.e because I'm pretty sure (ie moderate/high certainty) that S_S is quite intellectually curious. So I'm deducing that S_S refraining from getting into that at all is survivalistic from them, even if the extent of their comment on it is to inform me my method is terrible because xyz.

[Frogsterking]

I'm pretty sure (ie moderate/high certainty) that S_S is quite intellectually curious.

On hindsight I could be wrong about this part, I recall S_S likes to write and has a developed process for doing so which heavily implies creativity, but that doesn't mean is intellectually curious because S_S

could

be high in fantasy and low in intellectual curiosity.

[Frogsterking]

Dease, I'm confused why Cat is even being considered in 5732.

[Frogsterking]

do u wanna give me the cliff notes rundown of gamestate?

We've been waiting for your slot to claim, I'm about to start screaming for your head if your slot keeps knuckle dragging.

PEdit:

Claim VOTE: Menalque

[Frogsterking]

I will try and iso him

I'm so sorry!

[Frogsterking]

Ooo wow I'm on the correct wagon! I must be bussing!

[Frogsterking]

This is part of why not knowing confidence makes frogster hard to parse for me.

I think it makes it harder for me to parse my own thoughts as well! Labeling the certainty is already helping. I think internally my takes

were

dialed up to 11 sometimes and it was confusing me as well!

[Frogsterking]

Ooo wow I'm on the correct wagon! I must be bussing!

[Frogsterking]

that is a hardclaim, btw

why would you announce you were gunsmith before Mena claimed, giving him the opportunity to fakeclaim a role with a gun?

And then, why did Mena

not do that

?

I came up with the plan lol! We're bussing our traitor. I thought it was clever. I mailmanned Mena the correct claim for our

Plan.

[Frogsterking]

Now that I started pushing Men and S_S, everyone else decides Tweet

was

being bussed! Am I 2 steps ahead or am I 2 steps behind?!

[Frogsterking]

i will when i decorate it today after work

or at least the main room which is going to be the living / bed one

and then i make pastel pink hospital

[Frogsterking]

S_S and Datisi, would you say HDP is pretty indicative of S_S scum range or is it kind of an off game? I'm about ~55 pages in, no spoilers please

[Frogsterking]

Fire, I take it you're pushing S_S lim today over Menalque?

[Frogsterking]

Fire, I take it you're pushing S_S lim today over Menalque?

yes

Are you opposed to voting Menalque?

[Frogsterking]

@all

Does anyone have a link to the origin of the Luca Blight tell, like did they actually explain it anywhere or did other players who played with Luca Blight create it?

[Frogsterking]

Fire, I take it you're pushing S_S lim today over Menalque?

yes

Are you opposed to voting Menalque?

no, don't feel very strongly either direction on mena, i just think SS is more likely to be scum

Why?

[Frogsterking]

@all

Does anyone have a link to the origin of the Luca Blight tell, like did they actually explain it anywhere or did other players who played with Luca Blight create it?

a player who is purely shitposting is likely town, but a player of the same posting amount who tries to put out a Bit of content is likely scum?

i have seen luca use that a few times, but i don't know the origin

This reminded me of it:

lame

when can i expect the content from you? i don't want you stalling out on it

I'm curious if the concept is applicable to S_S in this game, ie I'm curious if there is going to be an attempt fairly soon at forging scum reads in HDP. I'm ~69 pages in so far, S_S pops in around page ~45.

[Frogsterking]

ok i'm really sorry

i wanted to do gamma iso tonight

i am not doing well rn and i don't think i can

is there anything specific someone wants me to comment on

thanks

Menalque

[Frogsterking]

Fire, I take it you're pushing S_S lim today over Menalque?

yes

Are you opposed to voting Menalque?

no, don't feel very strongly either direction on mena, i just think SS is more likely to be scum

Why?

Why to both the null on Menalque and scum on S_S? I have a very low certainty feeling that you're resistant to voting Menalque and I'm not super clear why.

[Frogsterking]

UNVOTE:

I also sort of had a gut town reaction to those obscure posts

idk I get that he just claimed but I do want to actually reread the ISOs again and avoid making a bad decision out of inertia

Lamist maybe

It had almost no success getting traction on gamma because of a ubiquitous claim that her tone and emotion were coming from town, and I find it really weird that as far as I can say nothing really seems to have changed that much but here's a wagon out of nowhere.

my main thing with Gamma is I thought she felt genuinely uninformed of marci's alignment. When I pushed on marci at the very start of the game, Gamma kinda pushed back at me in a defensive way, I think this was out of considering her a friend and not wanting her to get bullied immediately out of playing at gamestart. Then Gamma slowly became more and more suspicious of marci throughout D1/D2, it didn't feel like a calculated trajectory to me and I feel scum!Gamma would have been more likely to stick to an approach of buddying marci rather than picking a fight with her and claiming to feel "betrayed"

VOTE: obscure

I'm still not feeling great about this and still need to re-ISO DV, I am taking a train to Portland shortly and will try to do a bit of reading during that, but looking at wagon comp I still like this option much better than DV. MT wagon seems ok but I haven't found the courage to re-evaluate my Gamma townread yet

Trying to save Gamma?

Is this what you're seeing D2, Nero?

[Frogsterking]

Last VC + Votes before GL reasserts TR on Gamma and revotes Obscure in 5350/5351:

Spoiler:

VOTE: Tweet

Oh lmao that's the extent of Tweet's catchup. I thought I was a couple pages behind.

VOTE: Tweet

VOTE: Morning Tweet

gamma has a history of replacing out as scum + his vote on HEM was scummy as shit

VOTE: obscure

Whatever I'm just tired

UNVOTE:

I also sort of had a gut town reaction to those obscure posts

idk I get that he just claimed but I do want to actually reread the ISOs again and avoid making a bad decision out of inertia

DeasVail (6): fireisredsir, Ausuka, marcistar, Frogsterking, Enchant, obscure
obscure (5): GuiltyLion, Datisi, Nero Cain, scamper, Dannflor
humaneatingmonkey (2): Ydrasse, Gamma Emerald
Thestatusquo (1): humaneatingmonkey
fireisredsir (1): Thestatusquo
Morning Tweet (1): DeasVail
Not voting (1): Something_Smart
Day 1 will end in (expired on 2022-09-18 20:44:00). With 17 alive it takes 9 to eliminate.

I think I can make a counter argument to scum!GL trying to save Gamma on D2:

I can say that unless the solve is exactly GL+Dease, GL had a better looking read progression and a larger wagon on Dease at the time of 5351, so if scum!GL is really trying to save Gamma then the vote in 5351 would be on Dease instead of Obscure.

[Frogsterking]

Uh oh: Ausuka changed her vote off of Dease and onto Obscure after that VC! So the opposite is true; Obscure was the best wagon at the time of 5351 for scum!GL to try to save Gamma/Tweet.

[Frogsterking]

Uh oh: Ausuka changed her vote off of Dease and onto Obscure after that VC! So the opposite is true; Obscure was the best wagon at the time of 5351 for scum!GL to try to save Gamma/Tweet.

Wait, false alarm: my original interpretation was correct! Both Dann and Nero also took their votes off of Obscure, so the Wagons were 5 - 3 Dease Obscure at the time of 5351!

What is GL is saying is true, GL unvoted Obscure when the wagon was at its peak and revoted it later when it was smaller than the Dease wagon and Tweet was getting fragged.

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: GuiltyLion

Unless you believe the solve is exactly Dease and GL, I believe it's unlikely GL is scum with Gamma/Tweet. They had an ideal opportunity to join the larger Dease wagon at 5351 in order to create a counter wagon for Gamma.

[Frogsterking]

VOTE: GuiltyLion

Unless you believe the solve is exactly Dease and GL, I believe it's unlikely GL is scum with Gamma/Tweet. They had an ideal opportunity to join the larger Dease wagon at 5351 in order to create a counter wagon for Gamma.

moderate

degree of certainty GL isn't partnered with Gamma based on the wagons. I don't believe GL is so incompetent as scum to not vote Dease in 5351.

[Frogsterking]

I learned not to panic when people don't read my posts. In about 12 hours everyone will realize GL isn't partnered with Gamma. Now is my time to get ahead of the curve instead of freaking out!

[Frogsterking]

Okay im at starbucks and I'm gonna resume reading HDP at page ~69. I'm looking for a tell on S_S.

Pedit:

Isn't Menalque a skilled scum player? If there are reasons to believe Dease is Town, the Obscure/Menalque is likely scum because of their AFK tunnel on Dease.

[Frogsterking]

I suggest not going through with this wagon. I'm about ~75 pages into HDP and I would be surprised if this is S_S scum game.

[Frogsterking]

I just don't really think that S_S would just say they have actual zero scum reads as scum. I feel like they would be more likely to at least make up weak vague ones.

+1

I think this is the essence of the

Luca Blight tel

l

[Frogsterking]

I mean someone can look at S_S scum games and tell me if he's ever claimed to just have zero scum reads at all when being pressured as scum.

I'm ~86 pages through Holiday Dance Party and counting

[Frogsterking]

HDP S_S SHADE

Spoiler:

I feel like I kinda have to take it now because if Mala's scum she just insta accepts...

I really don't like that you did that though Galron.

Okay here comes the SHADE

I'm expecting this to ramp up into some actual scum reads. There's still 200 pages left.

[Frogsterking]

I *think* generally that you actually try harder to appear town in the traditional sense that everyone expects when you're scum. Maybe not by much, but I think you feel a little more pressure to warp your playstyle to expectations.

Yes. In particular there is a lot more promising of content to come. I'm finding things like "I can get a good read on Mala if you give me a chance", "I just need some space in the hood with Galron in order to get a read" etc. I'm close to the halfway mark.

[Frogsterking]

And it also had to do with my thinking that S_S was town, and this would force him to just take it

Why is this a good thing though? I wanted to hear from Mala... it's not like there was any risk of something bad happening if you waited.

Example ^^

Also:

s_s, do you have any opinions on me or my pair

I have a shit history at reading both you and GL. I...

honestly

can't recall much about what you've done, and most of what GL has done that I can recall is tunnel my slot for dumb and facile reasons, which is probably +town to be

honest.

AAAAH

(now the Mala example sounds eerily like the TFN thing)

[Frogsterking]

we're talking about word tells?

time to go check how many times skitter said ping...

jk i actually did that early lmao

did you run my posts through a sentiment analyzer, tho

I will be capable of doing that

Soon

[Frogsterking]

HDP was my second-strongest scumgame to date,

The

Tinfoil

is getting Real with S_S though

[Frogsterking]

frogsterking is mygreatbluebedroom confirmed?!?!?!?!?!?!

AAAAH my secrets, nooo!

[Frogsterking]

Okay finally here's something concrete-ish from HDP:

Norwee shows interest in Datisi:

I kinda want to townread Datisi just for that post alone.

Would you want to propose to me dearest Datisi?

hi

Did you show up because i was seducing Datisi.

But posts this while Datisi is still available:

I think the last slot here i actively want to pair with is Marcistar. :v

When asked who he wants to pair with:

Marcistar.

Some flirting

Who am i to solve the game without your guidance.

if i proposed would u help me solve t-t

i don't know, probably? to be fair i've read his recent meltdown and i got a bit of a feeling it's a townie one, so /shrug

do u think he would be a good partner for me?

i could never get mad at you Marcistar

This isn't something i say lightly btw.
I'm probably more interested in the personality of people i play with than their alignment. So i definitely know who i'm gonna get along with and who i'm not.

Marci meanwhile proposes to LLD, then GL, and finally Norwee. If they are both scum and planned on pairing together, then the plan sure didn't go back very far. But it looks like Norwee was angling to pair with marci early on.

Looks kinda "solvey"

Maybe comparable to what S_S wrote on Dease early in this game.

[Frogsterking]

My opinion is that all three of the "scummy" category (S_S, Dann, Shea) are actually Town, and there is at least one scum hiding in the "Null" category (Obscure...) and probably one scum who was on Tweet.

[Frogsterking]

I think that the D1 Towncore was probably all-town *squints at Dease* and scum were able to avoid landing at the

very

bottom of the PoE

sort of

but haven't been able to do any more than that all game, and have been harassed fairly heavily. I've been voting Menalque for a long time if anyone would like to test my theory.

[Frogsterking]

ok i went and dealt with my paranoia about ausuka

nvm about that if anyone cared

What happened?

[Frogsterking]

[s_s, fire, guilty, mena, frogster, deas]

find town in here game easy

Okay the optimal sequence here is to eliminate Menalque and then look for the busser tomorrow. Let me know what I can do to speed this process up.

[Frogsterking]

ok i went and dealt with my paranoia about ausuka

nvm about that if anyone cared

What happened?

Ausuka's WIM has fallen off a lot and I think that can happen a lot with deep wolf positions and then just no one ever reevaluates

but I reread and decided my fears were unfounded

I think it's NAI due to starting University. if you read some of their most recent posts they legit read like they're tired enough they can barely post.

Is there a legit reason you have against voting Menalque or my theory that scum got PoE'd on D1?

[Frogsterking]

I've seen him in scum games and I'm pretty sure that after my first hiatus he was scum in a game that skitter and S_S (and lowkey maybe you?) were also in, and while I think town won I think he was convincingly a lot more engaged for a long time than he normally is as town

oh shit yes i was there, that's right

ok i kinda skimmed his iso there

and i do say that he was more involved there than here

however, that game still feels like much less involvement for him than holiday dance party was, and firebringer was my strongest townread in holiday dance party

so overall i deem the fact he's not present a lot Not Clearing - especially as he claimed to have been busy during d1

I take it he was town in holiday dance party?

fb was lowkey nowhere near excited enough about the game (esp in a Pl that he likes and knows people in) to be scum, it's just a couple of jokes and a lot of bland and then I assume he repped out

have you ever actually played with scum-firebringer to know this? i know it's a popular joke, but still

I've seen him in scum games and I'm pretty sure that after my first hiatus he was scum in a game that skitter and S_S (and lowkey maybe you?) were also in, and while I think town won I think he was convincingly a lot more engaged for a long time than he normally is as town

T3 made this game as a reaction test

Also we can be friends I guess Mena I feel like your response was probably town

If you betray me I will cry

I would never, I am the towniest lil townboi there is

hence why I'm not yelling at scamper about game throwing

This is a scum response.

hang on, explain this

I've seen the "I don't know why you're doing this town but you must have a good reason so I'm not accusing you of game throwing" response way more from scum than town. I feel like town has more of an inclination to get immediately angry whereas scum tries to remain calm and try to figure a way out. Shrug.

Specifically the verbiage "this is weird you're not throwing" to me comes from scum way more often then town in these spots, just as a personal experience sort of thing.

firstly, I am trying to turn over a new, chilled out leaf and to continue on my path to tranquility

secondly, this initially pinged me as v performative seeing as I was basically 100% dead there as scum and so calling out anything I said as "scummy" seemed redundant if you were legitimately convinced I was. idk how scum!me would be figuring out a way out there and so I couldn't see how you would think that's what I was doing, but if it's more that just the non-angry vibe was reminiscent of prior scum reactions I suppose that makes sense

I didn't have a particular reason when I did the thing, I was reacting. I saw a bunch of posts in the pedit of the iso dive I did on frogsterking, said "eh, those are probably just nonsense." and then came into the thread to see shit raining down from the sky. Then I reacted to that shit.

I think that post would really only be performative in the way you're suggesting if we're buddies though. Like if you're town and I'm scum why would I make that post?

because ironically I think that when scum are ~around~ at the time that someone is getting wagoned and they don't wanna duck thread I've often seen them go for statements like "this is a scum claim" "this always comes from scum" "this is a scum reaction" to have some involvement in the shindig and I guess sometimes to play into looking like they're uninformed?

animal crossing.

oh gotcha

what is acnh

fb was lowkey nowhere near excited enough about the game (esp in a Pl that he likes and knows people in) to be scum, it's just a couple of jokes and a lot of bland and then I assume he repped out

have you ever actually played with scum-firebringer to know this? i know it's a popular joke, but still

I've seen him in scum games and I'm pretty sure that after my first hiatus he was scum in a game that skitter and S_S (and lowkey maybe you?) were also in, and while I think town won I think he was convincingly a lot more engaged for a long time than he normally is as town

T3 made this game as a reaction test

Also we can be friends I guess Mena I feel like your response was probably town

If you betray me I will cry

I would never, I am the towniest lil townboi there is

hence why I'm not yelling at scamper about game throwing

This is a scum response.

hang on, explain this

I've seen the "I don't know why you're doing this town but you must have a good reason so I'm not accusing you of game throwing" response way more from scum than town. I feel like town has more of an inclination to get immediately angry whereas scum tries to remain calm and try to figure a way out. Shrug.

Specifically the verbiage "this is weird you're not throwing" to me comes from scum way more often then town in these spots, just as a personal experience sort of thing.

firstly, I am trying to turn over a new, chilled out leaf and to continue on my path to tranquility

secondly, this initially pinged me as v performative seeing as I was basically 100% dead there as scum and so calling out anything I said as "scummy" seemed redundant if you were legitimately convinced I was. idk how scum!me would be figuring out a way out there and so I couldn't see how you would think that's what I was doing, but if it's more that just the non-angry vibe was reminiscent of prior scum reactions I suppose that makes sense

It's not going to work Menalque I'm watching your slot lurk out and I'm not unvoting.