PookyTheMagicalBear v Flavor Leaf (Game Over)

[Solstice]

[Solstice]

Seems like we're back

hi all!

~mist

[Solstice]

Evening, I've been around but haven't been posting because I haven't had much to say

But I'm liking noraa and not liking bell so far

~mist

[Solstice]

Whelp Noraa's town.
That wasn't hard tho.

15 to go.

TR on Bell

I don't agree, I don't think that post makes sense timing-wise if he already thought noraa was town from draft reasons

[Solstice]

Whelp Noraa's town.
That wasn't hard tho.

15 to go.

TR on Bell

I don't agree, I don't think that post makes sense timing-wise if he already thought noraa was town from draft reasons

~Mist

[Solstice]

Also if hydras could put mains in sigs that would really help me a lot, thanks

Mains are in sig but i forgot that it wasn't enabled by default lol

~mist

[Solstice]

pichu and ydra both red

im not going to recover form this game

pichu pooky ydrasse townblock

hmmmm....

This is an impressively nothing post

VOTE: Not Known 15

~mist

[Solstice]

VOTE: Solstice

Hello.

~mist

[Solstice]

VOTE: Solstice

Hello.

~mist

Hi!

What about Not Known's post pinged you? Because I actually thought his entrance to the game was p. town

I didn't think it was something worth bringing up, and the fact that he did makes me think it was a fake post

I don't think there's anything to read into with read conflicts like that, especially since one is a treestump

~mist

[Solstice]

[oh dearr.]

[Hello.. oh man.. hi Alisae, hi Norwe, hi again Spiffeh, hi Noraa, hi Gloria, hi Ydrasse, hi BM!, hia Bell, hi Dunny, hi Ircher, and hi mastina!]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[Half of the game is going to be posts by Polar Bear Express.. huh...]

[Right off the bat, I think Flavour wouldn't pick them because there's a decent chance in a game like this that ppl get annoyed with the high post volume and vote Noraa out for it -- she's good at scum, but she also attracts D1 elims. Although I suppose I don't know how well Flavour knows Noraa.]

[I think trying to read the content of Flavour's posts themselves is pointless, though. some people are doing that. Thinking about who he picked -- perfectly fine of course]

[Noraa is pulling out the classic OMGUS scumread everyone suspecting her tactic. Feel like every game I've ever played with Noraa or read about, she was scum.. so I guess I don't know how to interpret it. She does it a lot though.]

[I see the part where Spiffeh suspects us for disliking Not Known. I don't have much of an opinion there, except maybe I slightly like that Not Known was attentive enough to notice pichu townreading pooky/ydrasse/themself after pooky scumread pichu/ydrasse, I suppose. i don't exactly know what point he's making there, though.]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[new posts are being created faster than I go back and read posts.... :c]

[My guess is still that Flavour would probably be biased against picking hydras because they're usually more elim-baity from my experience. As we are demonstrating currently by having the two hyperposty hydras as main wagons]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[Dunny trying to make sense out of the madness (374, 389) and being annoyed about not having a good idea where to vote (443) feels slightly fake but also, I probably shouldn't suspect someone for trying to play the game....]

[....but I do, it seemed just a tinge tryhardy because I can't imagine being frustrated with not being able to place a vote this early.]

[Maybe I just pretend first 14 pages of the game don't exist at this point. i hope nothing important happened]

~Morning

[Solstice]

what about ME

[I have no idea who you are -- it's a specific guess I'm making about Ydrasse.]

~Morning

Hi Morning, I don't think we've played a real game together other than the marathon but I'm looking forward to it! Is the [] bracket thing something I should understand?

[It's a reference to OneShot -- I'm essentially a computer entity that speaks through a terminal as well as through a reflection of the protagonist, which is Misty.]

[Looking forward to playing with you as well !]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[Half of the game is going to be posts by Polar Bear Express.. huh...]

[Right off the bat, I think Flavour wouldn't pick them because there's a decent chance in a game like this that ppl get annoyed with the high post volume and vote Noraa out for it -- she's good at scum, but she also attracts D1 elims. Although I suppose I don't know how well Flavour knows Noraa.]

she only attracts day 1 elims as town, she always survives for a bit as scum
this feels surface level

[I think trying to read the content of Flavour's posts themselves is pointless, though. some people are doing that. Thinking about who he picked -- perfectly fine of course]

[Noraa is pulling out the classic OMGUS scumread everyone suspecting her tactic. Feel like every game I've ever played with Noraa or read about, she was scum.. so I guess I don't know how to interpret it. She does it a lot though.]

where have you seen Noraa elimmed day 1 as scum if you've only seen scum games of hers?

[I see the part where Spiffeh suspects us for disliking Not Known. I don't have much of an opinion there, except maybe I slightly like that Not Known was attentive enough to notice pichu townreading pooky/ydrasse/themself after pooky scumread pichu/ydrasse, I suppose. i don't exactly know what point he's making there, though.]

you like him for being attentive even if you don't get the point

HMMMM

~Morning

[Your first point is incorrect, Noraa attracted a D1 wagon in two scum games I have observed of hers -- "So Many Bats" and "Death Curse". The death curse one being a lot more serious. However, she ended up as universal town by the end of the day in both games, yes. I have heard quite a bit that noraa is elimination bait across her games, and what i have seen is consistent with that]

[pedit: stop rushing me!]

[I don't know what you mean by the second point. I slightly like that he noticed that group twice, because it might mean it was something that was actually on his mind. i'm kinda grasping for straws when it comes to that slot though]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[I suppose to elaborate on the first point, Noraa played the first day of Death Scroll so elimbaity that the entire game lockscummed her in the first 20 or so pages. How she survived past that point is beyond me]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[I picked this writing style back in May.]

[Although to be more specific i decided on it after I saw that Misty wasn't using the brackets. which means she is Niko, and I'm World Machine!]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[Compared to the game I linked? I would say i get more formal the less comfortable I am with a game and vice versa. Being scum is one way i get less comfortable, yes, but also being in hydras or in large games does it too.]

[pedit: you know the only thing I'm intentionally messing with is the brackets, right? My posts get longer and less frequent in larger games or in hydras where i become conscious about spamming the thread or having dissonance with my partner, but that's not related to the oneshot restriction]

[I feel like you're on the right train of thought, but the restriction is irrelevant. the content of my posts are! Have we played before by the way?]

~Morning

[Solstice]

is it time to worry about Tweetie

[(;﹏;)]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[I think the SvS take between Pichu/Ydrasse comes from out of left field. I townread someone for a wacky take like that in the past. Ooh! It was KMD in Mafia of Revelations. He was scum. Oops. so maybe it's intended to seem really wacky and bizarre. ]

[Ircher comes to the right conclusion about misty's alignment but that's not really a reason to townread him. Maybe a tinge of white knighting. i'd be okay voting Ircher because the similarity to KMD's take I have in memory is uncannny]

[Although perhaps i shall ask

Ircher

-- What about pichu/Ydrasse pings as SvS, if you know? Although my guess would be that ydrasse's vote on pichu was pretty nothing burger. Eh.]

~Morning

[Solstice]

oh really?
you feel super formal and less fluffy than you ever are
like look at this large game where you were in a hydra: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=84589&user_select%5B%5D=34866 (ctr+F for '-Morning')
there's a big shift in your tone

i've seen you around the forums!!!
i may be a secret admirer

[i was so uncomfortable with that game i dropped out of it, so that's.. interesting. Oh, well I did have the knowledge i was a mason D1 in that game and thus would never be eliminated. so that helps!]

[To be more accurate about why i stopped, I had a lot of clashing takes with my partner, specifically around Titus/Mastina, but i didnt really want to voice my dissent much. I think the bigger reason i stopped playing was because i got frustrated with another player though]

[a "secret admirer", you say? (/ω＼*) oh my!]

~Morning

[Solstice]

So Many Bats

Did I attracted a day 1 wagon? I remember being UTR tho.

[you were (up until you got slapped with the guilty). But you attracted early votes which i attributed to your sort of elim baity nature.]

[It is worth noting that you didn't actually get killed D1 in Death Curse and Bats. So maybe pichu is right and im wrong, after all. but you were really scummy D1 in death curse. I don't mean that you're a bad scum player cuz you're obviously not -- but you seem to attract early votes a lot from playstyle. Maybe i just saw the exceptions but i swear I've always heard people agree with that assessment.]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[If Pichu is Hectic i'll jump off a building. You're not are you? Your posts aren't terribly like his but if there's anything i've learned, that means nothing when it comes to Hectic alts. Plus you're a pokemon]

[actually Hectic is on V/LA i think nevermind]

Solstice do you have a read on us?

[most of your posts are too far back..]

~Morning

[Solstice]

But you attracted early votes which i attributed to your sort of elim baity nature

those were RVS votes.

[You and shelly were like the main wagons for the front half of D1, with Redados taking a resurge after a while]

[Noraa my point is that i think you're elim baity and i also think hydras are elim baity and also there's a ton of WIFOM paranoia people are going to have of you as well with regards to FL picking you. i think there are a lot of reasons for FL to not pick you and instead just have you eliminated later]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[that post is kinda rigid cause i didn't directly reply to anyone, maybe. i was just trying to review and comment]

[To answer your question, I don't feel terribly odd this game no. I think i was playing up the cuteness personality stuff more in that Mysterybox game, though, i agree. "Chopped liver?" "woah !!" etc lmao. I'm less in the mood for that right at this moment]

[What i guess I would say to you is that kind of stuff isn't terribly alignment-indicative of me. I actually play that up too much as scum to compensate sometimes. I could find games where I speak more in this tone, if you like. I wonder which one I used in Zoey's mafia (my last scum game)..]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[lay it on me]

~Morning

[Solstice]

how are you reading pichu and double trouble

PICHU TOWN DT NULL

get sniped reflection

~mist

[Solstice]

emojis are a scumtell :3

~mist

[Solstice]

how are you reading pichu and double trouble

[Now see i just got done telling Double I haven't read hardly anything they've said. I think baseline they're slightly less likely to be scum as a result of being a hydra but that's not really a read]

[You are probably more likely town than not, but that is slightly dependent on how good your scum game is -- I feel extremely special as a result of being targeted by your meta analysis and i like the work that went into it. I could tell immediately you had the right idea about reading me but it was just a little off. Mmmm i hate how easy it is to make me feel special]

[At the moment i wouldn't consider you a suspect but you're not higher than my opinion of Ydrasse/Noraa currently, if got further down the line and were unable to find scum, I'd paranoia you before them most likely]

[pedit: HEY YO WTF MISTY]

~Morning

[Solstice]

we're really coordinated guys

~mist

[Solstice]

or do u want me to call you mistygirl from now on.
it doesn't sound the same as chemigirl

mistygirl!

~mist

[Solstice]

emojis are a scumtell :3

~mist

-----------------------------
-----------------------------
-------------------
------------
-------
--
-

if this means what i think it means i agree

~mist

[Solstice]

or do u want me to call you mistygirl from now on.
it doesn't sound the same as chemigirl

mistygirl!

~mist

FIIIIIIIIIINE
Chemigirl sounds so much better but if you insist.

thank u

~mist

[Solstice]

Also there's a bunch of James Bond movies that are free to watch on youtube right now.
I spent last night watching From Russia with Love and Goldfinger.
What am I watching next, Dr. No or Tomorrow Never Dies?

HEEEEEEEELP

i have never watched a james bond movie before

are you doing them in a specific order?

~mist

[Solstice]

emojis are a scumtell :3

~mist

Depends on the player as well as the context. In general, I’d say that’s false.

i'm being like 40% sarcastic

but i've found that they can generally be a good indicator of tonal inconsistency

~mist

[Solstice]

Also it's almost guaranteed there will have at least one scum topposting so we may as well push those artificially raising their postcount.

[Have you played with Noraa/Norwe/Ali before?]

[Oh i think i misunderstood, i interpreted that as saying they are artificially raising the count to appear town or something, idk]

[anyway i'm doubling down on Ydrasse townread, pichu makes a good point that I don't think FL picks her + i think she is way too comfortable]

[This is probablyyy a case of the plethora of people calling for the high posters' heads containing scum -- Although i dont have an opinion on double trouble yet so maybe that's right idk yet]

[Norwe's suspicion on BM is really funny but idk what i think yet. It's persistent in that they found BM scummy for spotting his post -> BM clarifies he searched -> now they find it scummy he used the search function. Idk if that's scummy though so im undecided there]

~Morning

[Solstice]

I have determined today sucks and I will not be posting much for the time being due to that

I think Creature being disengaged is slightly scummy and Dunn's vote on double trouble is not that good

~mist

[Solstice]

Me is completely caught up!!!

Methinks Dunn is slimily pushing double which means they are very likely partners.

Or Dunn is scum pushing town.

me doesn't know but methinks both are scum more than Dunn is scum and double isn't.

Dunn is big scumbutt.

As for Toog. He isn't that big a scumbutt but there's a big problemo. He's not obvtowning and its concerning the fuck out of me. Methinks its scum indicative.

Creature is whiny and more annoying that me in me opinion but maybe dat is just me.

Pichu and Ydrasse have content. some dumb dumbs just can't see it -__-

Mastina's solve seems to be all ze lurkers which would be one hell of a coincidink.

Methinks my solve is ze right one.

okie me off bc me wanna go eat some fruit snacks.

me wills talk to gloriaaaaa abouts dis game sometimes today.

for nows, gooooodbye mwah <3

OH WAIT

one mores thing. Ali is start AtE'ing. ++++++++scum. me wills not cave dis time cuz me tunnel is right >:(

VOTE: VOTE: double the trouble

-nornorisgoeatfruitsnack

If you think Dunn is scum regardless of double trouble's alignment why did you vote double trouble and not Dunn

~mist

[Solstice]

Allow me to sum up the last 10 pages of content

[Norwe's suspicion on BM is really funny but idk what i think yet. It's persistent in that they found BM scummy for spotting his post -> BM clarifies he searched -> now they find it scummy he used the search function. Idk if that's scummy though so im undecided there]

This is mostly Alisae btw.
Alisae never signs, i do most of the time.

- Norwee

[O my bad.]

[i am in agreement with my partner that Dunn and Creature are good suspects, probably Creature more so actually]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[i am in agreement with my partner that Dunn and Creature are good suspects, probably Creature more so actually]

Understandablr. I suspect Misty too.

[it is good that we have come to a healthy agreement with regards to each others' alignments.]

~Morning

[Solstice]

Do you prefer town or scum misty?

Town

i hate the feeling that i'm letting my teammates down as scum

though that might just be because i have bad luck with regards to team composition and keep rolling into teams i cant work well with

~mist

[Solstice]

Also it's almost guaranteed there will have at least one scum topposting so we may as well push those artificially raising their postcount.

Spoiler: You mean artificially raising their postcount like this?

Oh this started

But I'm really tired now

also my hydra partner insists on using the black skin. He doesn't understand how much better sepia is.

Maybe your hydra partner likes having an eyesight?

dam imagine being ignored
pedit: CREATURE SEPIA IS THE BEST SKIN OK

Oh yeah my blind friend loves it
(They just didn't realize I changed to mafblack long ago while they were away)

if you think sepia is bad let me introduce you to mafsilver

Both blinding

Creature was my deep wolf because he doesn't lose 1v1's late game.

Only when I'm against two full bulletproof town

Ok you all have until page 10 to interact w/ Flavor Leaf and then after that just ignore him so he can't artificially inflate the post count and make Town apathetic TIA

Why do I have to interact with Flavor Leaf?

(Said after having interacted with FL anyway.)

Open if you're interested in doing mock draftsPlayers down to do mock drafts:
Alisae
MURDERCAT

Basically the plan is we're gonna do mock drafts and after the draft concludes we're gonna talk about why we went with what we did. We might get something out of it, we might not, but regardless its all fun and games and thats mostly why we're doing it.

Okay sure

You could like not quote the giant posts?

spoiler= is your friend

Noraa posting like she is from the r/fluffycommunity is annoying

I hope RVS phase is over

My Innocent Child meta comes and goes.

Sometimes it lasts in love, but sometimes it hurts instead.

My Innocent Child meta comes and goes.

Sometimes it lasts in love, but sometimes it hurts instead.

Adele

Caine

Oh my

Can't feel any more energy to play mafia

Lately been too obsessed with an anime and a song can't get off from playing in my head

He uses DATE Month(shorthand) YEAR, TIME
no am or pm at the end

Isn't day/month/year 0:00-23:59 the correct?

Because if that is indeed the sort of artificially raising your postcount that you think at least one scum will do...as a matter of fact, I happen to agree with you!

this is a good post

~mist

[Solstice]

i think the BM case has solid reasoning

i also think it is not correct

~mist

[Solstice]

VOTE: Ircher

i want to poke at this

i did not like the case on ydrasse at all really it felt like it was just jumping onto something instead of like, actually trying to solve the argument

~mist

[Solstice]

hey creature

what's your approach to this game been so far

~mist

[Solstice]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Ircher
His quote text walls are full of IioA. They are looking busy, but it's super fluffy.

I'm not a huge fan of having to come back to 27 pages that are mostly shit posts by players like pichu and the hydras. It demotivates me (and possibly others) to read everything we missed and try and sieve through for actual substance.

My experiences with Creaturescum remind me of the fat kid in dodgeball. I don't think he's someone Flav would actually "choose" to recruit for his scum team.

i uh

don't like this

hmm

~mist

[Solstice]

Why? Because I'm an asshole to Creature or because my vote looks opportunistic on Ircher?

the latter

~mist

[Solstice]

Why? Because I'm an asshole to Creature or because my vote looks opportunistic on Ircher?

the latter

~mist

Well, I want to start making some headway on an actual wagon. I want to do it on a slot that Pook wants us to focus on. And I don't want just have a naked vote on Ircher. The reason is legit, even if it's the only reason I have.

if you weren't forcing a vote on a main wagon, who would you be voting?

~mist

[Solstice]

What day is it?

monday

~mist

[Solstice]

[why is everyone on this page calling me weird. duuuude. well, maybe i guess]

[I have full confidence that pichu reads me correctly by the end of this game even if they are not already townreading me, though]

mastina how do you feel about Pichu's read on Solstice? Pichu is good at reading them. Pooky already outed that Pichu is hectic

[ARE YOU SERIOSU]

(Yes, confscum; I am that sure Battle Mage is scum here.)

[ooo, really lemme check]

@Mastina - Do you think I wouldn't be aware of you analyzing my drafts if I wasn't going to pick you?

This interaction makes me like Mastina-scum. I don't think FL engages like this with Mastina-town here.

I was so happy I got it too. Mastina and Dunnstral were the first bans the first draft.

1 scum, 1 town here?

[lol do you really think we can find scum via Flavour's posts, BM]

Morning Tweet could be scum here. A good choice if Flavor made it. One to watch. I'm on page 27 phew...

[That'd be an abysmal call, save for WIFOM. Hang on, have i even played scum against you before? i don't believe so. what makes you think i have a scum game?]

emojis are a scumtell :3

~mist

i suspect you're finding this hydra hard work.

[nobody can stop me! (^∀^)]

will do - aint got much so far. a few good townreads: Bell, Noraa-hydra, Pichu, Ydrasse maybe. I haven't got to the bit where Pooky picks his list of 4 yet (which incidentally, is a great idea, if I'm not on the list )

[Ya Polarbears/Ydrasse are town, Pichu probably as well. haven't read Bell yet but i think I'll have a decent guess after a little while]

~Morning

[Solstice]

record mentioning she dislikes playing scum a lot
so if Flavor Leaf did any research he's not picking her most of the time

This isn't in any way indicative of town!Ydrasse. It is the very essence of a WIFOM argument.

there's a genuineness and SOULvibe to it which would be hard to fake as scum
also she fluffs less and it feels more stilted when she's scum

Noted, but I'm not convinced.

[It's a good argument for Ydrasse being town, i think you should take it. even disregarding the WIFOM (although i lean that Flavour would choose a majority of non-WIFOM scum players. Like good ones -- since WIFOM really can only get bad scum players so far)]

[i'm going to take a guess and say there's scum in Ircher/Creature, although I'm not familiar with either player. I just feel like there's likely to be at least one scum running counter to the easy townreads on Ydrasse/Noraabear/Pichu that i *think* are mostly being shared?]

[I don't know if mastina/BM have valid points on each other or if they're just caught up in a petty argument of sorts and i don't feel like checking right now. I would sooner shoot BM because i believe mastina has at least a sort of hard time going massive effort as scum, whereas i know BM is good at scum and so far the main thing I liked from him is just agreeing on some townreads]

[I hear Dunn has been towny, sure I can buy it]

~Morning

[Solstice]

hi MT
I sure am happy to see you
got some time to talk?

[hello! definitely.]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[well that's kinda what I'm working through right now]

[I lost the VC but i believe Double, BM, and Ircher are the main wagons -- i currently would go either BM or Ircher just fine although i couldnt say which i prefer]

[Ydrasse is still probably my strongest town, Pichu probably.. Noraabear. I'm considering saying that you and Dunn's squabble is TvT but i dont actually know, it might not be.]

[Creature I am considering being scum, although i recall that he has a distinct scum meta (?) if im not mistaking him for someone else, and he has no votes, so im curious if someone has commented which direction he is so far.]

[Who else do i have opinions on.. I want mastina to be town so I don't have to read her posts very hard. so im kinda PoEing out the players i just haven't... seen the posts of. Oh plus Ircher/BM/Creature though so maybe not so bad]

[So:]

[Ydrasse]
[Pichu, Noraabear]
-
[mastina, Dunn, Double]
-
[everyone else]
-
[BM, Ircher, Creature - considering..]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[he's devil's advocating a lot, and usually in the opposite direction to what i'm thinking. He's attacking Ydrasse/pichu, the hydras.. defending BM and so on -- maybe im just getting unlucky reading posts I tend to disagree with, but i remember this feeling back when i was playing earlier, and he's doing it on this page too.]

[It's maybe slightly worth noting Ircher didn't post like this (with the big quote stripes) in my last game with him, Jigsaw mafia -- he didn't effort too much there. Maybe cause he was a replacement though, and im not familiar with how he plays as scum anyway]

[nothing terribly strong, but i still lean that there's scum in Ircher/Creature, especially if my townreads are right]

~Morning

[Solstice]

btw I am very happy with how the POE-4 is going - you guys are all doing a great job

if you aren't voting for someone in the POE-4 you should do so and have a reason preferably.

every1 already voting in the POE-4 pls give me your top SR and top TR in the POE-4 with reasons thanks.

[Who is the POE-4]

[Nevermind. i'd place my chips on Ircher, or possibly BM. But with BM i'm guessing more, i dont think i'd notice him do something explicitly scummy on D1.]

[I see that Ircher is displeased with the PoE thing cause it lets scum narrow their focus, among other reasons. I think it's fine for generating reactions and whatever, and also focus is something i struggle with in large games anyway so shining a spotlight is fine with me.]

[I just noticed we're already voting Ircher -- that works out good]

~Morning

[Solstice]

VOTE: DEB

I've acknowledged how many people dislike this slot

I have also acknowledged how it has zero votes currently

This is the result of putting two and two together

~mist

[Solstice]

it's interesting that Morning Tweet has exactly the opposite take as me on Ircher
don't you usually like players who go off on their own against the crowd Morning?
like why does Ircher as scum go against the "easy townreads" in pichu/Ydrasse/Polar if there's no chance he's getting an elim there anyway

[I do?]

[in any case, Ircher disagreed with the townreads far before eliminations were clear -- see the SvS theory way back when. The last time i saw the "out of left field SvS take early D1, it was from scum. And I disagree with the reads, and i saw a lot of people suspecting Ircher. so good enough for me]

[so in other words, it was before it was obvious who would be consensus town / consensus PoE]

[i wouldn't say going against the grain in of itself can really be considered inherently AI, but I think in this specific case where I think that bloc of people is really town and there's a group of people who disagree who also have some other scummy reason going for them -- it's enough for at least a scumlean]

[also -- this isn't terribly important cause i think you're reading me in good faith, but i am curious what makes you think I usually like players who do their own thing]

~Morning

[Solstice]

Yes, Mastina is calling me confscum here, in the same way she did when we were Morning Mage.

[yeah that's what i was worried about. And you're assuming her reads are all off the mark, just like that game as well -- i just don't trust you two scumreading/pushing each other much lol]

interesting here you suggest you don't agree with Ircher defending me....yet you hadn't really commented on me at all prior to this.

Can you talk me through your read here?

[i think Double was confirm biased, more or less, early while scumreading you, i didn't find the whole searching for your name ordeal scummy. i also hilariously enough am not reading mastina's posts on why you're a liar much cause I think she suffers from some kind of bias as well]

[i am pretty bad at reading you, worse than you know, and I haven't really gotten any pings in either direction. I think you could be scum in spite of what i have seen from Double/mastina, and it's also very possible im discrediting mastina falsely. If i were confident in a townread i'd oppose the wagon but I am fine with it at the moment. I prefer Ircher/Creature though]

[i think your reads are largely good in 1912 although I'm unsure on Double being scummy.]

[I see that you found Norwe's interactions with you to be bad faith. The only problem is I'm not sure that necessitates him being scum at all]

[do you have an opinion on Ircher, btw?]

~Morning

[Solstice]

I guarantee you I’ll catch at least one scum based off of the D2 reactions to the D1 elimination and the NK.

[ill hold you to it!]

[ (I see my partners point that DEB is generally low on lists but receives no pressure, and that is a fair one -- but if people approach those who go "D1 is useless" like I do, then voting him wouldn't do much anyway. so i think he would likely fail to receive pressure as either alignment. Maybe in a game with a really stagnant D1 he gets considered, but not one like this) ]

VOTE: Ircher

[Solstice]

although i dont agree, i like ircher for town for this.

[Nvm about asking on the Ircher read. I guess i can see why that is sorta towny, but I think he's being honest regardless of alignment -- what i mean is, i think he'd oppose that strategy either way. Idk. The big text exudes frustration though which I like]

I can buy Polar Express being scum this game.

1845 should be all the evidence you guys need

You know what? I think I want Double the Trouble dead today.
1) BM softed pr. theres a big possibility he'll be cleared/guiltied overnight and we'll be set and fine tomorrow without the risk of mislimmed a pr day 1. There really is no rush and if he's softing pr, we shouldn't be risking mislimming a pr. The activity argument is kind of damning but I've been criticized of not posting enough in town games before so idk how much weight I wanna put in it. I believe Mastina is passionate and believes in this read but I am not that convinced and I think theres plenty of time to sort this slot and maybe his night action can clear him, etc.
2) Double looks terrible. Each head has thrown shade and then the moment someone criticizes, the other heads like "eyyooo I don't agree with it so alls good"
3) Ircher wagon is dying and he is STILL one of my main SRs
4) Dunn is not happening today and
hold up I gtg.

[that's an extraordinarily bad post if BM scum. "You know what?" reads kinda fake]

[Although.. i do struggle to see what the incentive for scum!Noraa is to defend scum!BM actually. Would be a fun whiteknighting play I guess, free cops being distracted or extra miselimination]

[i guess I find it odd Polar wants Double Trouble so vehemently when Dunn//Ircher are their first picks. hmph]

I'm getting shivers from 1845

VOTE: Polar Bear Express

[I don't even blame you. something to think about]

~Morning

[Solstice]

Spoiler:

To reiterate:
Battle Mage claimed yesterday that, while on his V/LA, he was not reading the thread.
Battle Mage is asking that, if he is put to L-1, for it to be announced.
If Battle Mage was not reading the thread, how would he be able to see the declaration of being at L-1?
To see that he's at L-1 inherently requires that he is reading the thread enough to know it has happened...something he previously said he wasn't doing. To refresh your memory:

Like, this is just silly.

Just because he said he wasn't following up previously doesn't mean he can't at least follow along with current events now.

But when asked why he, allegedly, searched for his name inthread, he answers he doesn't know why and that he's never done it before.

So he's claiming he wasn't reading, that he found it through doing something he's never done before and had no reason to do here...but he wants to know if he gets to L-1 which requires...him to be reading the thread.

And this is just twisting things to fit her case.

Either way, if he's never done it before, then it's not necessarily alignment indicative.

Is there anything you think Battle Mage has done that's town indicative?

[Lul these two posts sum up my thoughts on BM and the case against him. I had a feeling the reasons for him being scum would be like that. but I also don't really want to call him town]

[At this rate, I'm going to continue to null/SL right up until he's abt to be eliminated, where he'll do something emotional or otherwise towny, ill change my mind, then he'll die. Could flip town or scum in that scenario though, i've had it go either way. consider this my prediction for the future]

[pedit: i know it sounds stupid and sheepy but that post by Noraabear is legitimately odd and out of place to me]

[I think I should make my homework getting a real read on BM/Ircher and probably Double.]

~Morning

[Solstice]

i have returned, vaguely

i havent gotten a chance to talk things out with MT and skipped the last few pages

ama

~mist

[Solstice]

do you or Morning hold your "one shot"?

you'll have to clarify more if you dont want an incredibly complex answer

~mist

[Solstice]

[Hectic's ability to read me has degraded it seems. Probably as a result of my playstyle doing stuff. that's alright, because he used to have a 100% success rate and it was a little annoying]

[I still think Hectic is town because there isn't a great incentive to get rid of me as scum, really]

Solstice (6): Dunnstral, pichu, Double the Trouble, Not Known 15, Netflix and Chill, Spiffeh

[I think Dunnstral is playing really good if scum, hectic is probably town, dont know NK15, don't know N&C although I thought they did something that got townreads earlier but i wasnt there to see it, and Spiffeh is at least consistent with his earlier read]

oh god also happy birthday Morning!!!!
you're amazing and i love you regardless of your alignment <3

Happy Birthday Tweetie!!!!

I love you no matter what. <3

[ty guis]

~Morning

[Solstice]

Yes, something like that. Everything there has a qualifier that tones it down. "I think" "ordeal scummy" "Pretty bad" "Could be scum in spite of"...
and yes, thats scummy.

[you find my vocabulary scummy for being too uncertain, wishy-washy. I can see why that could be a general tell but that is not scummy for me]

i find this post off as well but struggling to explain why
i think it comes down to mostly being gut
the norwee take is too hand sanitizer cleany though
the take on BM himself also has a scummy line
the "If i were confident in a townread i'd oppose the wagon but I am fine with it at the moment."
you know what i mean????
someone help me articulate
it's like... she's making sure to VERY clearly outline her stance in a way where she's overdoing it and it comes off as unnatural
something like that

[Why are you scumreading me for something I do constantly]

[Earlier when i mentioned my prediction for the BM wagon, i was likening it to the D1 Auro wagon in Mafia of Revelations. I thought the reasoning was kinda bad, but i could see Auro being scum in spite of it and he remained in my PoE all day. He did emotional stuff end of day that made me switch to TR, he died, and flipped scum]

reads off but hard to articulate why
kind of like she's trying to make it read like stream of consciousness but it doesn't sit quite right

@Morning: why did you abandon the formal/structured posting style that you started this game with?

[i haven't done anything with my posting style this game. You're reading into something that isn't there. I could see perhaps me being in a different mood earlier or something, but there was no intentional posting style change]

[It's also possible I used a particular different voice from the one i usually use on this account, but if i did, that was unintentional]

I'm not entirely sure if dropping pressure on Battle Mage is the most amazing idea but I'm interested in seeing where this goes
VOTE: Solstice

[it might go to me getting progressively more and more frustrated i'm being scumread for posting style -- but it also might be good for reading, idk]

~Morning

[Solstice]

I guarantee you I’ll catch at least one scum based off of the D2 reactions to the D1 elimination and the NK.

[ill hold you to it!]

[ (I see my partners point that DEB is generally low on lists but receives no pressure, and that is a fair one -- but if people approach those who go "D1 is useless" like I do, then voting him wouldn't do much anyway. so i think he would likely fail to receive pressure as either alignment. Maybe in a game with a really stagnant D1 he gets considered, but not one like this) ]

VOTE: Ircher

this random tangent on DEB i don't like
it's the kind of thing it feels like Morning is using to fill out her word count

[i included that because I was switching my partners' vote and i wanted to explain what i thought about it so i wasn't just undoing her actions...]

[You of all people should realize why i feel obligated to do that, shouldn't you?]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[Anyway I really think Dunn is town]

[Murder probably isn't scum Noraa, although I would have to see more. That post you made regarding BM and Double was legitimately odd, and if you're scumreading him for that, i would ask that you explain why scum!Murder feels obligated to do that rather than town!Murder, exactly. I guess Murder could still be scum because one gut-take agree could be a coincidence, but i lean against that]

[With regards to BM.. i take it he's been very emotional or otherwise heart-to-heart and it's practically guaranteed I would come off with a townread on him if I read it. Norwe argues that BM simply wants to not be eliminated regardless of alignment. Sigh, I don't know, BM is the type of player who I'd expect to go to great lengths to not be eliminated, yes. He actually ended up claiming VT i believe which is weird considering he said he was going to point out a crumb earlier. but that's such a BM move. Ill figure it out eventually. Or maybe i wont since BM might be the only choice I'm allowed to have versus myself]

[do

none

of you league players play assassins? i haven't seen a single mention of one. that is all i have to say abt that stretch]

~Morning

[Solstice]

do you seriously believe i'm scum here? you know my scum meta is lurking like hell and low-efforting.

you can also see i've been a lone warrior for the Pooky-cause so far here.

so why am i even up for getting elimmed?

[since when is that true? You were very active in the launch normal mini]

well you did lurk pretty hard bro

you also care way too much man - i think town!bm doesnt care nearly as much

also like flava flav thinks you're super good

[I don't know if i really agree town!BM would care less, but i do think scum!BM would care a lot. and i would agree BM is a good pick by FL]

[Mastina probably town regardless of BM's alignment, unless she's capable of going this tryhard as scum and also is okay with suffering the consequences of presumably a hard tunnel on BM. what i mean is i don't think she'd act this confident on BM as scum -- although that is a guess]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[i would find that much more plausible than mastina!scum/BM!town, yeah]

~Morning

[Solstice]

this is not a great one - I'm not convinced Morning-town just gives up on reading me here, with a fatalistic "it's gonna be him or me" with 4 days left on Day 1 and barely a majority between us.

[very sorry for being grumpy there, im over it now]

[my bigger issue is that I almost always townread emotions. I did go back and read at least a lot of it. I came away townleaning some of the emotional bits obviously -- i did have some comments in 2542 though that i was curious about. Since when are you a lurky/bad scum player, for example?]

yes im town noraa, i've poured my heart and soul out in this thread. i think you are emotionally intelligent enough to see this is BM-town. I don't know why you're voting me, unless you are really planning to over-rule Pooky?

[like as i have gone over, a lot of the things people are finding BM suspicious for, i don't really. I certainly haven't read everything though, especially many of mastina's points. I have a lot of respect for BM's scumgame in that i could see this recent emotional play being a ploy (I am having serious flashbacks to Revelations D1 Auro vs. VP Baltar). He also could be town where Mastina/Double are just seriously off the mark]

[I should definitely take a deep dive and try to understand all of the arguments presented but at the moment im just weighing the chances of each player being scum off of what i have read myself. At the moment my only really strong reads are Ydrasse/Pichu/Dunn town]

~Morning

[Solstice]

hey BM do you think Pooky would be hurt if you flipped scum here?

yeah he would be. especially since he stuck his neck on the line for me. but i'm town, so he hasn't got anything to worry about. like, whatever happens in this game, I feel vindicated after getting a bunch of shit thrown my way. When push came to shove, Pooky read me correctly, despite getting a load of crap from his own masons. The mason thing actually pisses me off, because if you were lucky enough to be picked as a mason, shouldn't you listen to the guy who picked you? Disrespectful in my book, but w/e. And I feel bad for Pooky having a hard time. At some stage he might have to elim me just to shut them up, but he knows I'm town, and for me that counts for something. Brothers man.

I'm doing my job - just need to get the game back on track and push people into actually doing more. Not even convinced elimming me would give much information - there isn't enough protown mojo to pick out and challenge the lazy scum from the misguided town.

[Jesus i just saw this one -- it really hurts to read]

[Maybe the VT claim is an odd move for BM!scum. But oh my god! That's what Auro did in Revelations that made me start vehemently defending him there.]

[perhaps i am motivated enough to read mastina's posts now, try and actually see what I think. I would ask for a summary but it's really my fault for not reading em in the first place. Let's do this, then]

Spoiler: Mastina on Battle Mage

Team FL go go go!

I believe it.

VOTE: Battle Mage.

For the record, if I had to go for a coherent team comp I'd guess something like BM-Spiffeh (deny town + strong scum + willingness to gambit) with one comfort pick (Polar Bear Express, Dr Easy Bake, maybe-Ircher, maybe-MURDERCAT), and then one more wildcard pick that he's not so confident on but which he thinks helps the team (Solstice, maybe-MURDERCAT, NotKnown15, Creature, maybe-Ircher).

But in terms of reads I admit that expectation isn't quite lining up with the strength of reads since Spiffeh's the closest to a townread and both Ircher/Creature being scum would mean a lot of players I see scum stuff in are not actually scum.

(Basically, read strength isn't equal to team likelihood, the two are different metrics to use that are guessing different things.)

[This post and all the ones involving BM before are FL team speculation. I actually agree, BM is a good, strong pick for him to make.]

Why are you scum reading him?

Because while I believe that he is genuinely V/LA on weekends, I do not believe that his V/LA on weekends status means that he doesn't post here yesterday and today posts only four posts that were all Beetlegeusy in nature (which he himself admits he normally doesn't do); I feel it far more likely that he's mostly been contributing in the scum PT, realized he had been called out, and decided to pop in.

I feel like the nature of his posts is indicative of him being scum, in part because in spite of being V/LA there's no solving in it.

The Battle Mage I know would solve even when being V/LA and the lack of it is a huge fucking red flag.

[Next up is BM opting not to post while V/LA is a scumtell. I see. My only question would be, why post at all then? If BM!scum would like to use V/LA status as an excuse to not solve -- then what's the deal with doing non game-related posts? Maybe he thought he could get away with it ig. I am not aware of scum!BM not wanting to solve, either]

Despite having not posted anything of value, or read anything of significance - I am Mastina's top scumread.

Yes, exactly--and you continue to have not posted anything of value.

Instead of posting something of value while on V/LA, you've made literally twelve posts explaining why you aren't making anything of value while V/LA.

You spent the time typing TWELVE POSTS to explain "I don't do content while V/LA".
Twelve posts of explaining why you're not making content.

Instead of one post explaining it and eleven of doing anything resembling scumhunting.
Or one post explaining, a second post clarifying, and ten posts of some rudimentary basic scumhunting.
Or even just one post where you officially and publicly declare to the mod that you're V/LA over the weekend, leaving it at just that.
You've made twelve posts, and all of them are excuses to avoid making content.

a good townie takes a view on these things based on activity across all games.

I did, actually--there was activity from you, content activity,

after

this game has started. I cannot go into more detail than this without violating the Ongoing Games discussion rule, but suffice to say: this game started on Friday; you were posting content elsewhere on Saturday.

You literally were active in at least one other game while doing nothing in this game.

[Activity telling him, he played somewhere else. I see.]

I for one, welcome our Pooky overlord who is letting me ignore almost all of you

Murdercatto really wants to get put in the POE

It would be a welcome addition since MURDERCAT's chances of flipping scum are at least equal to Ircher's--which is to say, infinitesimally higher than Dunn/Double's chances.

norwee hasn't done that thing where he obvtowns yet

Except Norwee has?

I realize that Alisae's posts are, overall, less town than Norwee's posts are (tho there are still strong town indicates from Alisae's half, too!).
But Norwee's posts are plenty town.

norwee is like very very easy to read

I agree with this assessment!

I disagree that Norwee hasn't shown it!

[This isn't related to BM -- I'm just noting it for my read on Double Trouble. i think it's plausible to say that Norwe is out of his scumrange with the large amount he's been posting (thats content i still need to sort through though) ]

ok as you can tell I've run out of steam...I'll keep going tomorrow until I catch up

Ah yes.

Your 'content' can be summed up as:
Polar Bear Express is an unlikely FL pick (this is fair); Ali/Norwee would be a top pick (this is a bad take that fuels the paranoia on the slot when it's pretty damn clearly false).

Speculating that the confscum talking indicates I am scum (this is a bad take for pretty obvious reasons); calling mastina-Dunn one town/one scum also off of the confscum (this is also a bad take for the same obvious reasons); Bell town (this is fair, as BM should see Bell's townness); reaffirming Noraa's town (this is fair); calling Ydrasse scum (this is a bad take).

Asking for a heads up if at L-1, proving that you're reading the thread because what good would this notification do for you if you weren't? (this is important enough of something that I'm going to requote that post to point it out since I missed this implication the first time).

Calling Toogeloo town (this is fair).

Elaborating on your stance which proves you are reading the game without commenting on it.

Placing an opportunistic vote on Double the Trouble and indicating you are aware that the ic said that there were four names in contention with Ircher and Double Trouble as two of them.

Taking back the bad-Ydrasse take and calling Ydrasse town (this is fair).

Calling Solstice scum, a take that's questionable (I cannot in good faith call it a bad take because there's at least some merit to the accusation, but it is still a questionable stance to take due to the ease and convenience of it).

Calling pichu town (this is fair).

A fluff post, followed by another fluff post.

And then you declaring you're out of steam.

So to reiterate.
Bad reads on 2-5 slots, where you do take back the bad read on one but leave the bad reads on the others.
Good reads on 4, later 5, slots.

And nothing more.

You've developed reads on a grand total of 9 slots (if I am being generous), in a 17-player game. After having read 730 posts, where every slot had posted at least once in that timeframe. You have reads, half of which are bad, on literally only half the playerlist.

Why are people thinking this is in any way Battle Mage as town?
He's being lazy.
He's making bad, easy takes, and avoiding taking stances on most players.
He's refusing to give the game much in the way of actual content.
And this is him after his V/LA has ended.

[OKAY. So i recall reading this way back when. She criticizes BM for a lack of meaningful content here, and how he exits the thread after making that content. She draws the conclusion that he is lazy, makes bad/easy takes, and doesn't create content.]

[i blew this off because, even if she finds his content low quality, he IS playing the game. If she didn't disagree with so many of his takes here, then she wouldn't be making this case i don't think. I agree that his content is relatively low through that stretch, though. So there's valid criticisms and obviously it jives with the "scum!BM is struggling to create content in this game" idea she's got going.]

[You know actually this post (faintly) reminds me of this where I attacked BM early game (TvT) in Jigsaw Mafia for having bad content + stuff i constantly disagreed with.]

[My verdict on this case is that there is nothing BM!town couldn't do here -- like yeah, I expect him to have takes I disagree with, or have fluffy content. I think mastina's points that he's avoiding making content / solving (especially during V/LA) whereas he would be doing more as town is plausible. So continuing on]

can someone give me a heads up if i get to -1 so i can claim? lol

it's best to give warning when you put someone at E-1 so they can claim, in case they are a power role, or just because it's good practice/good for the game.

To reiterate:

Battle Mage claimed yesterday that, while on his V/LA, he was not reading the thread.
Battle Mage is asking that, if he is put to L-1, for it to be announced.
If Battle Mage was not reading the thread,

how would he be able to see the declaration of being at L-1

?

To see that he's at L-1 inherently requires that he is reading the thread enough to know it has happened...something he previously said he wasn't doing. To refresh your memory:

HOW DO YOU FIND THE ONE POST THAT CALLS YOU OUT IN THE MIDDLE OF A BUNCH OF PAGE
WHAT
HOW DOES THAT HAPPEN

i turned up
i saw 28 pages
i used search function for "battle mage"
I spent 5 minutes wondering why the fuck somebody had posted Morning Mage quotes.
i responded to a nice msg from Norwee

He claimed he responded to the message not due to reading the thread, but finding it with a search.

HOW DO YOU FIND THE ONE POST THAT CALLS YOU OUT IN THE MIDDLE OF A BUNCH OF PAGE
WHAT
HOW DOES THAT HAPPEN

i turned up
i saw 28 pages
i used search function for "battle mage"
I spent 5 minutes wondering why the fuck somebody had posted Morning Mage quotes.
i responded to a nice msg from Norwee

i mean yes but why

i dunno, never done it before tbh. *shrug*

But when asked why he, allegedly, searched for his name inthread, he answers he doesn't know why and that he's never done it before.

So he's claiming he wasn't reading, that he found it through doing something he's never done before and had no reason to do here...but he wants to know if he gets to L-1 which requires...him to be reading the thread.

Which is cemented here:

also better VOTE: double the trouble as I owe Ircher one.

This post is indicative that Battle Mage is aware that Pooky made a pool of 4 players to eliminate within, containing both Ircher and Double the Trouble. It's a case of TMI given his stated narrative.

None of the posts in that range mentioned Pooky's pool of four, and yet somehow Battle Mage knows to vote Double the Trouble, one of the names in that pool of four, over Ircher, another name in the pool of four?

I call bullshit.

Battle Mage has read most of the thread already. Maybe genuinely not all of it, but he knows far, far more than he is pretending he knows.

[This is stuff that you can't fake. I'm thinking this can't be SvS.]

[If everything in this mastina post is exactly how it went, then I can see why she is convinced BM is scummy. as scum, I will tend to read the thread more than I let on (although.. usually only when im in a tough spot where I have to pretend i dont see some damning piece of evidence a mate is scum, for example) ]

[I have some questions: the part where BM said he used the search function, that was 731. However, the post where BM appears to acknowledge the PoE-4 decree, that was post 1526. how are you sure that the era of BM not reading the thread ended with his V/LA? I presume that he kept saying he hadn't read up around the 1500 area.

Morning Tweet could be scum here. A good choice if Flavor made it. One to watch. I'm on page 27 phew...

[Okay, I see. he admits to being at page 27. And where was the POE-4 decree?]

so after consulting for a long time with my ace team of mason friends we have come up with this POE-4;

we will eliminate someone from this list today:

Double Trouble
Ircher
Battle Mage
Dunnstral

Pls don't put anyone within 2 votes of being elim'd I'd like to do some final heart-heart talk with the victim first thanks!

[Okay. Now was there a place where BM was actively posting where it got brought up, so he would know what it is? That is how I know about the POE-4, after all, it was continuously talked about]

[Wait. No mate, there's a way simpler explanation than that BM was aware of the POE-4 by reading and accidentally slipped it in 1526.]

Official Vote Count 1.11

Ircher

(6): Solstice, Netflix and Chill, MURDERCAT, Bell, Polar Bear Express, Toogeloo

Double the Trouble

(4): Dunnstral, pichu, Ydrasse, Not Known 15

Solstice

(1): Spiffeh

Bell

(1): Creature

Ydrasse

(1): Ircher

Dunnstral

(1): Double the Trouble

Battle Mage

(1): mastina

Not Voting

(2): Dr Easy Bake, Battle Mage

With 17 alive, it takes 9 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2020-12-14 16:00:00)

Good job guys. No prods needed.

You have 1 vote on you?

[Murdercat had just linked a VC where Double/Ircher were the competing wagons. Mastina says that it's "indicative that Battle Mage is aware that Pooky made a pool of 4 players to eliminate within, containing both Ircher and Double the Trouble. It's a case of TMI given his stated narrative." in 1646.

It's not. They were the main wagons who just got linked in a VC to him in the prior post.

[Obviously this doesn't make BM town or mastina's case disingenuous, I think mastina's case is for real. But he didn't slip having knowledge he shouldn't there, which is 1646's second point. So that's wrong. But the first point I still haven't reviewed. Let's go over that..]

Battle Mage claimed yesterday that, while on his V/LA, he was not reading the thread.
Battle Mage is asking that, if he is put to L-1, for it to be announced.
If Battle Mage was not reading the thread, how would he be able to see the declaration of being at L-1?

[So Mastina's point is that BM is asking to be notified if he's put to X-1, which clashes with how he's not reading the thread, so how would he be able to see the notification? What confuses me about this is that BM's post where he says he wasn't reading the thread is back when he was on V/LA and was explaining the search function thing. He doesn't say he's going to continue to ignore the thread.]

[So, in other words, why does BM saying he wasn't reading the thread in the

past

, during V/LA apply to him reading the thread in the

future

, aka to be notified of X-1 status? I am confused how these clash. I'm going to finally move on. God that was a waste of time because it doesn't make BM town at all, it just means those points aren't particularly great]

every1 already voting in the POE-4 pls give me your top SR and top TR in the POE-4 with reasons thanks.

My top scumread is Battle Mage because almost all of his claims are full of shit.

I know for a fact he posted content in other games during the time period he claims to have been V/LA in this game. In spite of no content in this game.

I know for a fact that his claim to have searched for his name is bullshit because this is the search result that'd be generated from it. It is far, far more likely that he was reading during his V/LA and not giving content, but felt the need to give a pop-in, so he invented an excuse to do so, banking on nobody checking his claimed method and hoping nobody would call this behavior out.

I know that he's softing a power role, but I know for a fact that the way he's doing so is his scum meta because town-BM does not soft in that way whereas scum-BM does.

Battle Mage's play here is his scum meta through and through, start to finish.

As for top townread, that I cannot give you as two of my top townreads are in your pool and you asked for me to describe only one--but Dunnstral and Double the Trouble are both equally not-scum to me in both being locktown reads of mine in my townbloc.

[I would have to take mastina's word about the activity tells. It is a bad look for him]

[Searching "Battle Mage" does give you Norwe's 475. Unsure what she means here]

[Ahh, perhaps mastina pointing out that scum!BM claims a power role here is why he claimed VT. In fact, I bet a lot of people would have gone "BS" in response -- so maybe VT was a better pick.]

Also since Battle Mage reminded me of his posting, this feels the appropriate time to do this:
The game thread opened at Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:50 pm.
Everyone received the daystart PM on Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:59 pm.
So everyone, at approximately 5 pm pst on Friday December 4th, knew that D1 had began and was open.

@Titus why are you not voting NPOM? I think I missed that.

Because I was a) holding out for BM and b) was going to quick hammer if you voted him.

VLA until Sunday

weren't you voting me for hammering yesterday? (although it wasn't exactly quick, and was very much facilitated by superbowl)

This is a content post by Battle Mage made in that Normal on Sat Dec 05, 2020 1:01 pm. A full 20 hours after the start of our game.

I figure it's obvious to scum that I'm a PR at this point anyway so I'll do my proper claim.

Hey BM why do you think this would be obvious to scum or to anyone? I didn’t see where you crumbed it.

lol! maybe ask Flavor Leaf or Titus since they both picked up on it. i was hinting at it for numerous posts today, after I figured there was a risk we wouldn't elim OWER unless I gave a bit more help.

This is another content post made by Battle Mage. On Sat Dec 05, 2020 1:05 pm.

also, i don't even have the paranoia of OWER-town in a weird setup with 2 town protectives and a roleblocker, given if that was the case scum would just have taken up my offer to elim him, then me.

This is

a third

content post by Battle Mage on Sat Dec 05, 2020 1:06 pm.

Titus let me be blunt here. You’re acting an awful lot like a fourth scum and this is ELO. I get both NPOM’s and BM’s claims are suspect as fuck. But the fact you’re literally waiting out in the wings for a quick hammer (your words) instead of voting NPOM when in your world there is no way I could be scum is sus as fuck. You’re not even considering traitor which is normal, and I don’t know if the above is a slip. Give me a reason by play you’re town here. Not mechanics. Play.

how on earth is Titus acting like it's ELO? and how is my claim remotely "suspect"? I really hope, if my solve is right, you're just screwing around, and not actually going to throw the game for town.

This is a fourth content post by Battle Mage, on Sat Dec 05, 2020 1:10 pm.

I feel like there is probably not one town player left alive who has played well, and virtually every town player who is dead, had a better showing.

This is (an incredibly accurate on-point) fifth content post by Battle Mage, on Sat Dec 05, 2020 1:12 pm.

it seems very simple to me. We have 2 claimed protectives. Me and OWER. Unlikely, given all the other claimed and revealed roles. How the claimed masons don't see it, is beyond me. I figure it goes like this: Ranny sheeps Math
Math stalls but ultimately does whatever Titus and Flavor Leaf tell him
I have no idea why but whatever. Just seems a shitty way to lose when we can easily win this.

This is a seventh content post by Battle Mage, on Sat Dec 05, 2020 1:22 pm.

I figure it's obvious to scum that I'm a PR at this point anyway so I'll do my proper claim.

Hey BM why do you think this would be obvious to scum or to anyone? I didn’t see where you crumbed it.

lol! maybe ask Flavor Leaf or Titus since they both picked up on it. i was hinting at it for numerous posts today, after I figured there was a risk we wouldn't elim OWER unless I gave a bit more help.

So you started crumbing it day 3?

it wasn't really crumbing, i was dropping whole fking loaves. i was hoping Titus or FL would be town, take the hint, and we could bury it in content so I wouldnt have to claim.

This is the eighth content post from Battle Mage, on Sat Dec 05, 2020 1:23 pm.

it seems to me that you're about to throw away the game regardless of anything I say because you are listening to Titus and FL and not me. You'll forgive me if I don't waste my time going back to dig out quotes which you can easily find yourself (you were here when this all happened and I know you're not stupid). absolutely ridiculous

This is the ninth content post from Battle Mage, on Sat Dec 05, 2020 1:27 pm.

But here's the important part, and the REAL bombshell.

can you just look at the claims please, and tell me setup-wise what makes sense - 1 protective and investigative on alternating nights - yes. 2 protectives which overlap awkwardly - no. that's essentially what this boils down to. i only 'crumbed' when i knew it was necessary to risk outting my role to get OWER-elimmed. it doesn't make sense for me to do that as a gambit to save hypothetical partner NPOM when it buys me maximum of 1 mis-elim for 2 consecutive scum elims, or potentially 2 consecutive scum-elims and conftowning somebody else.

If you are masons, think about the permutations here - what makes sense in terms of setup and also the way each player has approached it. It's not like BM doesn't fakeclaim as town often if there's a reason, and it's pretty obvious that the manner I claimed VT (under no pressure, and using the excuse of being neighbourhooded to make it believable) was just to stop me being NKed. My role is alternate night so it kinda relies on me surviving a few night phases to get value from it.

This is the tenth content post from Battle Mage on Sat Dec 05, 2020 1:41 pm.
Notice something?

Yo where my man Battle Mage at, he knows his shit.
Call out to mah boiiiii.
- Norwee

I'm here buddy. 28 pages on the weekend I'm VLA.
shiiiiiiit
I'm town anyway, I guess Pooky wasn't given the opportunity to pick me.
Team FL go go go!

This was Battle Mage's first post in this game, a declaration that he's V/LA on weekends...at Sat Dec 05, 2020 1:32 pm.

Battle Mage made nine content posts in another game before declaring V/LA in this game, then

went back to that game to post more

and still doing nothing.

He made his eleventh content post at Sat Dec 05, 2020 1:44 pm.
His twelfth content post at Sat Dec 05, 2020 1:44 pm.
His thirteenth content post at Sat Dec 05, 2020 1:47 pm.

And then he came back to this thread to post:

HOW DO YOU FIND THE ONE POST THAT CALLS YOU OUT IN THE MIDDLE OF A BUNCH OF PAGE
WHAT
HOW DOES THAT HAPPEN

i turned up
i saw 28 pages
i used search function for "battle mage"
I spent 5 minutes wondering why the fuck somebody had posted Morning Mage quotes.
i responded to a nice msg from Norwee

Sat Dec 05, 2020 1:50 pm.

Yo where my man Battle Mage at, he knows his shit.
Call out to mah boiiiii.
- Norwee

I'm here buddy. 28 pages on the weekend I'm VLA.
shiiiiiiit
I'm town anyway, I guess Pooky wasn't given the opportunity to pick me.
Team FL go go go!

Have you been reading?

....no. see VLA.

He claimed V/LA as an excuse to not make content at Sat Dec 05, 2020 1:51 pm.

And why is this important? Because after claiming V/LA as an excuse to not make content in this game...

lol scumslip? dude get real.
also, ftr i am never "coached" as scum - people who try, get bussed to death immediately. consider me checked out for the day, as I think this is a lost cause. Math seems more interested in keeping FL happy than elimming scum or even talking about the possibility of elimming scum, or even talking to me about anything actually useful.

...He made his fourteenth content post of that game, AFTER this, at Sat Dec 05, 2020 2:04 pm.
And a fifteenth, at Sat Dec 05, 2020 2:07 pm.
And a sixteenth, at Sat Dec 05, 2020 2:09 pm.
Here's his seventeenth content post, at Sat Dec 05, 2020 2:11 pm.
Here's his eighteenth content post on Sat Dec 05, 2020 2:17 pm.

And then, there is a timegap from him posting again there...which doesn't correlate to him posting here. (Because his last post here that day was at Sat Dec 05, 2020 1:58 pm.)

VOTE: Nopoweroverme
doesn't look like we can do anything else anyway. what a joke. at least there's a statistical chance he can be scum. It's virtually unanimous anyway, and I'm obviously wasting my breath with Mathblade. But I'm sure my solve is right and this probably flips town. Whatever.

He does however return to make his twentieth content post of the day at Sat Dec 05, 2020 2:35 pm.
Followed by 21st content at Sat Dec 05, 2020 2:36 pm.
And 22nd content post on Sat Dec 05, 2020 2:38 pm.
With other slight gaps following, because his 23rd content post was at Sat Dec 05, 2020 2:44 pm;
His 24th content post was at Sat Dec 05, 2020 2:53 pm.

And that was it for him in that game.
He made 24 posts of content in another game, all the while clinging to "I'm V/LA, I can't post content over the weekend" in this game.

That game was him as town, posting up a storm during the time he's V/LA.

So yes.

I have a pretty damn compelling case that Battle Mage's claim of not making content due to being V/LA over the weekend is utter bullshit.

[Fucking hell, that's hilariously high dedication. I appreciate it though because i would have had to take her word for it otherwise.]

[Obviously that's a bad look and this would be fairly effective for catching me personally as scum. There are other factors that can make me hate a game and stop posting in it, but never before the game has actually started.]

[What causes Battle Mage to avoid this game and post in another? Sure, there could be reasons other than alignment. However, him using his V/LA status as a reason to not play this game is really strange. Additionally, if mastina feels that scum!BM struggles to create content and has noticed that as being a part of his scum meta, then that definitely helps.]

[I would very much like to see BM's response to this post -- I will now check to see if there is one.]

lol mastina, if it wasn't bad enough you trolling me in this game, you bring up the TGP game I just lost too? argh

your 'case' appears to be that i posted in some games and not others whilst on VLA. Which is correct - I had some time, just not enough time to actively keep up with the majority so I cherry-picked ones where I thought my contribution would be most needed in that window. As you note, the game I posted most in was where I'd just counterclaimed doctor and town was about to lose.

mastina, i don't think many of your posts today are going to age well xD

[I see, BM had many games and had to choose which to play in. I will note that this game not making the cut can be telling that he's scum, although not definitively because I definitely can see prioritizing a heated Xylo situation over a large you haven't read the majority of.]

[Using V/LA as an excuse to not play is a bad look but at least Murdercat asked him if he had been reading so I guess there was some incentive to justify. Curious to see what mastina says next..]

your 'case' appears to be that i posted in some games and not others whilst on VLA.

It's more than that.
It's you making twelve posts in this game where you insist you're not reading the game and are using V/LA as an excuse to not make content during that time...while there is active proof across the site that your statements in this game were a lie, as well as proof in this game that your claim to have not been reading is also a lie.

I.e., that you made multiple posts insisting on V/LA as an excuse to not read and not make content...when there's proof that, given the chance to post 12 times, and given the things you displayed awareness of, that you were reading and could produce content during that time.

I had some time, just not enough time to actively keep up with the majority so I cherry-picked ones where I thought my contribution would be most needed in that window.

And yet, something ongoing-games-friendly from you where you said this, is not what you said. You didn't say "I'm V/LA over the weekend and this game just started so I don't have the time for this game right now", or something to that effect, where you mention that you have limited time on the weekend and that you can't spend that time on this game but it's fine because it just started.

You made multiple posts where you made a blanket "I'm V/LA, therefore, not able to make content"--multiple posts. One post was all you needed to make, but you made multiple posts affirming that V/LA. Multiple posts that take your previous-am-V/LA-on-weekends time. You felt the need to make twelve posts on the weekend emphasizing this V/LA, rather than just one and spending the time of those 11 posts elsewhere.

haha my scum meta is lurking, but i havent been lurking here, I spent the weekend with my daughter and then had work either side, plus more games than I normally have.

Yes and during that V/LA time you felt the need to make 12 contentless posts rather than just one, while displaying knowledge that you shouldn't have if you were genuinely not reading the game. And upon coming back, you produced a bunch of lame posts that, while technically content, were incredibly lackluster, lacking real substance/depth to them. And then with reads on less than half the playerlist, called it a night, on your first day back.

And only when you became the lead wagon did you pick up your activity.

[BM clearly felt obligated to make posts in this game despite not really reading through it. And as he did it, he would always use his V/LA status as an excuse for having not read up. That is a fair point.]

[In my opinion, that the slips where BM allegedly: A.) Accidentally acknowledges the POE-4, and B.) asks for someone to notify him of X-1 status -- do not reveal that he is lying about reading the thread. So I disagree with that assessment.]

[I think that, due to my assessment where I believe he was not lying about reading the thread, he cannot be considered confirmed scum for that.]

I'm sure she has noted that my activity was similar to here in the majority of my games, but it's inconvenient for her 'case'.

You did not make 12 posts declaring yourself V/LA over the weekend in your other games. That is a trait unique to this one.

In fact, TGP's Normal was not the only game you made content in at the time, but obviously TGP's is the only one which I can discuss due to it being the only one that ended. The relevant spot for this is currently on page 13 of this search, to be moved further back for people when you post more and to become unable to be viewed come Saturday.

If you were in six games, it is correct to say you did not post content in all of them.
But you didn't post at all in three of them if so. (I count two instances of you posting in the endgame of completed games, then a total of three games, two being this one and TGP's game.)
You did post here, making this game indeed unique among your ongoing games.

As the only game you were a living player in, that you posted in, but posted zero content during, but still posted a lot.

[I think this is a wildly better point than the lying stuff -- BM clearly prioritized the Xylo game, yes. He has other games, yes. But he chooses this game to be the one where he constantly makes himself appear in thread (whilst under the pretense that he's V/LA so he isn't reading).]

[I think this combined with the idea that scum!BM is lurkier or doesnt want to solve, or generally doesnt want to make content as much, is a decent case. He clearly felt the need to make himself shown in this game. One thing I still wonder, though -- earlier in this post of mine, I asked "why does scum BM feel the need to pop in and talk at all?" I am still a bit curious about that. Why not just not speak, as he did in the other games? I still find the comparison of his behaviour in this game versus the others to be a scummy look for him.]

oh really
i'll look into that BM

I did since I figured I'd be the only player who bothered to check.

Battle Mage has claimed that, at the time, he was an active player in 6 games, including this one and TGP's recently-ended Mini Normal.
This shouldn't be one of them, because it is listed as being in postgame. It cannot be one of the games he didn't post content in as a result.
This also shouldn't be one of them, because it is listed as being in postgame. It cannot be one of the games he didn't post content in as a result.

He didn't post content in this game, but posted 12 times here.

He posted content in TGP's now-completed Normal and one other game.

He didn't post in any other game, not even contentless.
It was a total of five games--two in postgame at the time he posted in them, a third being TGP's, and a fourth being this game.

So why the contentless posting in this game, rather than either not posting at all (what he claims is what he'd do on V/LA), or the content posting of the other two?

Why did he display a trait unique to this game?

[Yes, exactly. That is the question i'm asking, albeit in a more neutral way. Why does he do that in this game specifically as scum?]

my request to Pooky, and the town as a whole I guess, is to actually give me more than 2-3 real life days to do something useful and obvtowny, rather than elim me because I didnt have time to keep up with and post properly in the majority of my games over the weekend. I think that's a little opportunistic and slimey.

By the way.

On this note.

There is a lovely quote I want to give from a fairly obscure game that I feel does a good job of explaining why Battle Mage is scum here.

Subject: Mini 2096: I Don't Remember the Name of This Game

I Also, I was legitimately just really busy IRL which is why my posting/catch ups were limited and I maintain that was a bad reason to scumread my slot.

Nah, that was the individual scumtell I talk about above, and an excellent reason to suspect you. Scum and town tend to play differently when they have little time. Town motivated players will often try to ensure they do as much as they can with their limited time: naked votes, claims, really important questions. People who have time to whine in thread about how unfair it is when they are busy irl are usually scum. They try to use limited access as an excuse to lurk. These players also tend to continue whining postgame and claim that they'd have done the exact same thing as town, but they keep flipping scum!

Contrast: I did a sixty hour work week over six days from about three rl days into this game.

Ever since I had the pleasure of playing with Fonz in that game, I have taken this to heart, and yes, it remains true to this day, and anecdotally I've noticed I follow it myself. (Where as scum when V/LA I use it as an excuse to not be around but as town when V/LA I still try to give

something

.)

This game Battle Mage insists that his twelve posts while V/LA that gave zero content were something he'd do as town--maybe he genuinely believes that he would do that as town.

But twelve posts essentially 'whining' that he's V/LA is something that is far, far more likely to just actually come from scum.

[Okay. I agree with you that this would catch me as scum, a lot. it is possible that is what is happening here, yes]

I think softing pr on day 1 is risky play cuz u might attract trackers/watchers/cops/whatever. Methinks its not optimal play for scum!BM here especially cuz if he didn't, his wagon wouldn't have exploded like that(imo)

Softing a PR is also a great way for scum to avoid being eliminated on D1 without being forced to commit to a specific claim, giving them time to tailor a custom-made claim that fits far better into the game. (Something which FL is notably apt at doing.)

By letting it be a soft rather than forcing a hardclaim he's accountable for, you let scum get away with murder. Quite literally.

The point is that you didn't have enough to read me off full stop. In essence, I wouldn't expect 2 good independent protown players to both settle on a top scumread of a guy who was VLA for the 48 hour life of the game. Doesn't mean you should have townread me either. But the fact you came to such a strong consensus doesn't look legit.

Haha yes, that would sound good for you if it wasn't an blatant misrepresentation of our read.

It is in fact your still avoidance of any real read and engagement on the thread (ignoring your attack on us, as that's easy for scum!you to replicate) that's been increasing my scumread on you for every minute since that V/LA has subsided.

- Norwee

Another good post for why BM is scum and Norwee is town.

[as a somewhat related note, I think that is perhaps hard to believe BM has Double as his strongest SR.]

[Oh another note, definitely still thinking what I mentioned earlier where this isn't SvS. Now that I've actually read the thing you know]

And you're assuming her reads are all off the mark, just like that game as well

While my reads were far from perfect that game (and nobody that game can claim to have done otherwise themselves as literally nobody had absolutely perfect reads), they were still pretty damn good? I lead the D1 elimination on scum, critically had very vital townreads on key town players that were otherwise being scumread, and identified two of the four remaining scum as well.

I had two scum that I misread, and three town that I misread. That's it. I had accurate reads on 15/20 slots that game that I had a need to read. 15/20 correct reads translates into 4/5 translates into 80% read accuracy. Given 5/23 players were scum which is a 21% scum ratio, that's not bad for being informed of the alignment of two slots in the game. (If you included them, it'd be 17/22, a 77% accuracy rate, still decent.)

Where is the idea that my reads were all off the mark that game coming from?

i also hilariously enough am not reading mastina's posts on why you're a liar much cause I think she suffers from some kind of bias as well

The idea that I have bias in my reads is a scum narrative. (It is an argument almost exclusively made by scum. Almost. FL has made it as town and BM is the same sort of player as FL so him making that argument isn't something inherently in of itself scum-indicative from him. Butstill, the argument that I have bias towards specific players is one frequently made in an attempt to discredit my, usually quite valid, reasons for being suspicious of the slot.)

My reads are always based off of the evidence in the current game, supported by the evidence from past games that I am familiar with.

While it is possible that the reads I generate in that method are wrong (and in fact frequently are as my read accuracy is not much higher than random overall), they are not, inherently, biased.

[Apologies, i would like to atone for that at the moment obviously. I don't think you are biased here. I felt that way originally because you and BM went at it last time we played, as well as I feel like it was brought up in that game how you two seem to do that a lot. So I figured this was a clash that you two do on a recurring basis.]

[I mean, even if it is, I should still examine the evidence. Ignoring the evidence and dismissing it blindly is a scum narrative indeed]

This is a good point though; Battle Mage is a bit too self-focused when he's in no danger of dying. That said, it fits his personality.

Not in my experience.

The Battle Mage as scum I've encountered when threatened reacted pretty much the way he is here.
The Battle Mage as town I've encountered when threatened still had this aura of smug superiority in knowing he was town, knowing he wouldn't be eliminated, and continuing to scumhunt on a large scale.

ok as you can tell I've run out of steam...I'll keep going tomorrow until I catch up

Having read 27 pages, you didn't seem to contribute much.

Yup, and which alignment do you think will contribute less when under this sort of pressure?

[He typically has a self-focused playstyle, i agree with Ircher. But I agree with you that he always keeps up on the scumhunt -- he wants to be the one who finds the scum, and not a lot gets in the way of that. If it is true that he's weaker at doing that as scum, there's a serious point to be made here, yeah -- and it makes sense for mastina to think he's so scummy.]

A. Why on earth would BM-scum pretend not to be reading the game? Where's the motive?

Take your pick, any of these are options.
1: Allows you to get away with not faking content during a time you're genuinely V/LA--you don't want to put in the effort over the weekend as scum because reading is less effort than writing.
2: In the current meta, scum lurking and letting town eat itself up in TvTs is an incredibly strong scum strategy. FL is not above utilizing it as a, on a grander scale, scum strategy for winning the game, if he thinks he can successfully maintain the TvTs.
3: Allows you to create refined, stronger points when you come in and attack the areas you've had the time to observe are weakspots in the town's stances/arguments, while pretending that these arguments were made blindly.
4: Faking a stream of consciousness catchup when you're actually informed is rather easy to pull off. If you're more aware than you're pretending, then there can be towncred in taking stances that're informed from that extra reading.
5: You can write things out in advance in the scum PT, and then finish them inthread, to let your scumbuddies check the posts and let them give feedback on what you're intending to say.

Among other possible reasons.

Would it be all of these at the same time? Probably not! But this is an incomplete list of possible explanations. Suffice to say: there are some.

B. If I had actually read the game, why would I subsequently spend several hours trawling through and giving my thoughts on everything?

Ties into one of the above options. It takes far less time to read than it does to write. If you read in advance and pretend not to, then the writing takes less time and produces better content for the result. However, it does still take time. Less time than reading-while-responding, but still some time.

But you can't exactly not give thoughts at all and expect to live, can you? So you NEED to post content, even if it's on things that you read in advance.

Plus, your initial 'catchup' where you were sparse in quoting posts and mostly went 'page x, thoughts on page' looks like this exact approach, where you read in advance and didn't feel like putting in the extra effort to quote content from those pages, so you summarized them.

C. If I had read the game, why would I say something about possibly being close to E-1, when I was nowhere near?

This is fair since I did technically say "BM has read the thread or at least most of it" and it is in fact inaccurate to accuse you of having read all of the game. A more accurate stance would be "BM has read at least some of the thread when pretending he hasn't and is showing knowledge indicative that he's read more than he claims he has". Which is to say, you didn't read the whole thread, but read more than you claimed, so you wouldn't know you weren't near L-1.

2. Mastina alleges that BM lied about being on VLA to avoid posting in this game, whilst posting in other games, implying he is scum here and town elsewhere.

False. I allege that you are genuinely V/LA but your 12 non-content posts while on V/LA while making content-posts or no posts in other games, is indicative of being scum in this game who was doing more than he said he was, behind the scenes.

As the rest of your points are in relationship to a claim I never made, they are irrelevant.

Do you think, given we are now 80 pages into the game, there is anything else of merit for you to comment on?

Yes, and I continue to do so.

While the majority of my content is outlining why you are scum, my posts are not exclusively about your scumness; I have addressed reads on other slots. I should give a full indepth readslist with reasons, and it's among the things that I intend to do soon(TM).

You could give some thoughts on other players besides me - reads which don't simply lean on your false premise of me being scum.

I have reads on every player in the game and none of them rely on their read on you. Quite the opposite; reads that might be different if I were to look at their interactions with you (Noraa's bad defense of you, Creature's calling you scum), I am, explicitly,

ignoring

, in favor of my own read on them (Noraa's town anyway, Creature's a scum candidate anyway).

Or you could give some thoughts on the things I've actually posted

I have and continue to do so--

The posts you make show TMI, are weak reasons on weaker slots aside from the TMI Double Trouble push, and largely underwhelming.

[See, I don't think BM is faking not reading the game, or at least not too much. I do agree heavily that there are a plethora of reasons to do that as scum though. However, the slips she pointed out aren't slips imo. However HOWEVER, he still could be scum faking not reading regardless of that.]

[It makes so much sense that BM is engaging with Mastina on the point (#1) she has that i think is irrelevant or at least partially inaccurate. However, the second point she makes (the one I think has better merit) !! he misinterprets it!! He interprets it as her accusing him of faking V/LA, when in reality, she is saying his approach to this game versus other games while on V/LA is scum indicative. What a coincidence that he can approach her first point, but not the one I actually think is for real good.]

Essentially your argument is:
"Battle Mage posted a few times here, but nothing substantial, during his VLA"
The biggest problem is...then what? Why does that make me any more likely to be scum?

I will requote the Fonz quote for why it makes you scum:

There is a lovely quote I want to give from a fairly obscure game that I feel does a good job of explaining why Battle Mage is scum here.

Subject: Mini 2096: I Don't Remember the Name of This Game

I Also, I was legitimately just really busy IRL which is why my posting/catch ups were limited and I maintain that was a bad reason to scumread my slot.

Nah, that was the individual scumtell I talk about above, and an excellent reason to suspect you. Scum and town tend to play differently when they have little time. Town motivated players will often try to ensure they do as much as they can with their limited time: naked votes, claims, really important questions. People who have time to whine in thread about how unfair it is when they are busy irl are usually scum. They try to use limited access as an excuse to lurk. These players also tend to continue whining postgame and claim that they'd have done the exact same thing as town, but they keep flipping scum!

Contrast: I did a sixty hour work week over six days from about three rl days into this game.

Ever since I had the pleasure of playing with Fonz in that game, I have taken this to heart, and yes, it remains true to this day, and anecdotally I've noticed I follow it myself. (Where as scum when V/LA I use it as an excuse to not be around but as town when V/LA I still try to give

something

.)

This game Battle Mage insists that his twelve posts while V/LA that gave zero content were something he'd do as town--maybe he genuinely believes that he would do that as town.

But twelve posts essentially 'whining' that he's V/LA is something that is far, far more likely to just actually come from scum.

Your twelve posts while V/LA lacking content also have zero town motivation.

There was no town motivation behind making twelve contentless posts while V/LA.

There was scum motivation behind those posts while V/LA, that I have already explained extensively.

I mean the reality Mastina, if you cared to consider it, is that I displayed a unique trait in each game, as I posted with different frequencies in each (including in some, as you note, not at all). It isn't as simple as "BM did a unique thing in this game whilst in other games he followed a clear post/don't post pattern" - that is factually untrue. But you're still missing the pivotal question, which is why me doing something different in 1 game, implies I'm town in all of the others and scum here.

That's not what I meant by unique trait and you arguing it is in bad faith.

You said that you've never before searched for your name before, yet you allegedly did so over the weekend while V/LA.

That is a trait unique to this game, in an entirely different way than "didn't post in a game" or "posted content in a game". Having different posting frequency is something that has happened in dozens of your past games. Having searched for your name is something you've never done before.

But even were it what I meant, the unique trait displayed in this game is one that is, inherently, a trait more likely to come from scum.

If you were totally inactive while v/la, that would be a nai trait. Neither alignment is more or less likely to do this; it's inherently null.
If you were active and producing content while v/la, that would be a town trait. (Because town being active and producing content while V/LA is a town trait.)
But by being 'active' so to speak and producing twelve contentless posts while V/LA, that trait is, uniquely, a scum trait. (Because scum being 'active' and not producing content while V/LA is a scum trait.)

[Does BM ever interpret this point correctly?]

I was VLA, I had a couple mins

You had a couple of minutes while V/LA and that was enough time over two days to make twelve contentless posts, and you spent those couple of minutes on those contentless posts rather than elsewhere doing something productive or here doing something productive?

You decided that, with a couple minutes to spare, it was important to post contentless posts in here, rather than, decided that, with a couple minutes to spare, you'd do something with that time? And then, rather than leaving it at just one contentless post that was low-effort, decided it was so important that you needed to make twelve over two days?

This narrative does not flow.

but even if you were correct, you failed to make any attempt to argue why it would be alignment indicative for me to have the posting pattern I did here.

Apparently demonstrating that scum have a higher tendency to make excuses to avoid posting content when V/LA than town who will either not post at all or if posting will produce content, doesn't count as giving evidence.

Apparently showing the lack of town motivation while outlining the plethora of scum motivation, doesn't count as giving evidence.

Apparently showing how your narrative of your actions not lining up, and pointing out the inherent contradictions within that narrative, doesn't count as giving evidence.

[I have reached the conclusion. BM does not really engage Mastina in a way that is satisfying from what i can tell from any of these replies. I could see town!BM hand-waving the case off, but still it's convenient for him to do so as scum.]

[I should get my thoughts together and figure out a verdict, now.]

[I'm in agreement with mastina's early analysis that BM is a good pick for FL.]

[Think there's no way it's SvS -- I'm taking that back now that I've actually read the case. I don't think this is the kind of thing that's fakable, and that's probably the best way i can explain that]

[So I first went through to see what I thought about the "BM accidentally acknowledges reading things despite claiming not to read" points -- in summary, I don't think they're convincing. I don't think he made any mistakes like that.]

[Why scum!BM claims VT was something I was wrestling with -- i see now that mastina fully would expect scum!BM to pull out a power role claim along with some crumbs. I also think a lotta people would have gone "BS" if he did claim a role. So yeah better to WIFOM VT]

[You can probably see that I had a wildly better opinion of mastina's points surrounding BM's activity and the posts he chose to make in this thread. additionally, those happen to be the points BM misinterprets the most. What I mean is that when it comes to the lying or "not reading" stuff, BM usually approaches it pretty straight -- I don't think those points are as good. But when it comes to the V/LA activity, he misinterprets it -- see the post where he interprets it as mastina accusing him of faking V/LA. I just thought that was an interesting coincidence.]

[Counting out the couple of strong BM scum performances i've read, i suppose that if your view of BM's scumgame is "Lurkier, struggles to make content but still wants to have thread presence" -- then this game is a perfect showcase of that.]

[Saying that she's misinterpreting him, misrepping him, calling her townreads people who scumread him, etc etc isn't exactly outside of how i'd expect BM to a big case like this regardless of alignment. I don't think it's true though and she comes off way stronger in the one versus one, obviously. She has points that are good that he just doesn't engage with.

[And it doesn't help that the big one (His activity in this game during the V/LA being uniquely odd) is the one he never seems to engage with on the straight]

[My final opinion is that mastina is town, but for BM, sigh. Mastina's posts about him lying about not reading don't work for me. Her analysis of his activity across all of his games suggest that he is scum here if her meta on him is correct, though. He engages with mastina fine enough on the first point, but hasn't really from what I've seen on the second, which is an interesting coincidence given I lend weight to the second but not so much the first. His engagement during and around the V/LA is low compared to other games as well as what you'd expect from his town meta which, i thought, was always about being town's biggest solver. He would explain his lack of reading/engagement away by pointing to V/LA a lot, but it does make me wonder why he felt the need to post at all. but you could just explain that away by saying he posted on a random whim, I suppose. However, that is still not an argument for him being town, and I have never procured one of those -- only reasons why mastina is wrong in some areas. Is this BM's town meta? Not really, compared to Jigsaw/mysterybox. Was that caused by his alignment? Maybe. Is it possible that the extremely high WIM and emotions that are appearing now a result of him being scum? Again, maybe -- I can also guess that perhaps it's a case of BM not wanting to be eliminated in general. I have read a lot of the emotional bits and some make me want to move away from him, sure. The VT claim combined with the appealing to Pooky and all that emotional shit though does make me come away feeling not great, though -- like, he is clearly going in 100% on trying to survive right now.]

[ I don't come up with reasons that BM is town, I come up with excuses that can possibly explain portions of the case against him. But I agree with some bits, and some of those bits he seems to misintepret when he defends against them. I'm solid on mastina town because she doesnt do this to a partner nor do I think this case is disingenuous. I feel that if you occams razor BM's activity in this game around the V/LA bits, then his odds of being scum go up quite above rand.]

[I'm going to do birthday stuff now. I think Double/Mastina/Ydrasse/Dunn/mastina/pichu are town!]

[BM can technically still be town but he'd have to overcome a lot of.. idk, coincidences and scummy things. Hard to explain. He's missing the parts of the mastina's case that I happen to like and think could be real. But uggghhh I can still see town!BM being like "Yeah that's nice misrepping Mastina,

so anyways

" in response to her case. But I don't so much see town!BM not being much of a solver, you know? Maybe that's unfair.]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[BM, are you scum?]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[BM, are you scum?]

~Morning

no, obviously. I'm now convinced you are though, because you just bad-faithed and mis-repped me to death, and you are the most good-faithy player on this entire site.

or, worst case scenario, you have just completely taken leave of your senses.

[Uh huh.. thanks for that]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[I just spent multiple hours reading and reviewing mastina's entire case for BM being scum because I previously was just dismissing it all -- which BM calls "smart" from me.]

[But now that I've taken the time to actually care and achieve a real verdict based off of the evidence and the entire case presented -- it's gross and I've lost my mind.]

[That is really, really disappointing to hear]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[I have a new policy of not voting when I'm pissed off, so.. yeah.]

[I very much hope for BM being scum because he just called my useless, dismissive play "smart" whereas the play I poured hours into is bad faithy, misrepy, and completely insane. How does that make any sense? The only thing that changes is my dismissive attitude towards mastina was helpful to him, whereas when I actually took the time to read, my opinion of him went down.]

[There's no reason to think I'm being bad faith now as opposed to before -- ignoring shit is like the epitome of bad faith and would let me ignore a whole host of scummy things a partner does, or towny things a townie does for example. How he can view me as a slimier player as a result of that post is beyond me. And I don't even think it makes him scum because he'd fully well do that as town just because he tends to base a players' intelligence off their read of him.]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[I just spent multiple hours reading and reviewing mastina's entire case for BM being scum because I previously was just dismissing it all -- which BM calls "smart" from me.]

[But now that I've taken the time to actually care and achieve a real verdict based off of the evidence and the entire case presented -- it's gross and I've lost my mind.]

[That is really, really disappointing to hear]

~Morning

nothing gross about the fact you read it

the fact you read it and framed it to demonstrate something it didn't = gross.

Anyway I think I've achieved something now - outting you as scum, so my death isn't in vain!

[Like, explain? Explain how that post tries to frame you as something you aren't? That was some objective shit. It took me fucking forever to verify too. Mastina's points about you lying about your activity -- inaccurate, as it is possible to explain those points away without lying. Mastina's points about your V/LA activity when compared to other games, as well as how that implies you are scum if the meta is correct --accurate, you are indeed scummier as a result of them. What is your problem with that?]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[He probably won't even flip scum, that's what's more aggravating than anything else. Here's good old Jigsaw BM arguing with me over bullshit. God damn it dude.]

[Does he even pull this shit on me as scum? Not believing I'm dumb enough to suspect him? I don't know but that's definitely a look I am quite familiar with from my experience with town!BM.]

[Pedit: I guess it's convenient but it's so, so familiar. Again this is why I shouldnt play while pissed, cause yeah I suppose there is scum motivation behind strongly voting for the only other counterwagon. I kinda forgot about that]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[You're never going to catch me as scum cause i'll just make sure not to step on your toes ever, lol. You've scumread me in every single game we've ever played as soon as I start going against you. It is.. so familiar. I almost forgot what it feels like]

[pedit: I do want to clarify I don't feel you're intentionally personally attacking me, I just am taking it personal a bit because I tried very hard to be objective with that post and you hand-waved it pretty much for no reason other than because I disagree with you.]

[Like -- in what world is ignoring everything mastina says a smarter me? I feel bad for the "I'm ignoring mastina" comment. You said I was smart and everyone should sheep that stance. That's bs, dude.]

[You can clarify that it's not the act of reading into what mastina says, and you are actually scumreading me for some "Morning misinterprets everything I say and bends it to make me scum here!" bull,

but you gotta actually show me where I do that.

]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[You're never going to catch me as scum cause i'll just make sure not to step on your toes ever, lol.

You've scumread me in every single game we've ever played as soon as I start going against you.

It is.. so familiar. I almost forgot what it feels like]

[pedit: I do want to clarify I don't feel you're intentionally personally attacking me, I just am taking it personal a bit because I tried very hard to be objective with that post and you hand-waved it pretty much for no reason other than because I disagree with you.]

[Like -- in what world is ignoring everything mastina says a smarter me? I feel bad for the "I'm ignoring mastina" comment. You said I was smart and everyone should sheep that stance. That's bs, dude.]

[You can clarify that it's not the act of reading into what mastina says, and you are actually scumreading me for some "Morning misinterprets everything I say and bends it to make me scum here!" bull,

but you gotta actually show me where I do that.

]

~Morning

MT - i think we've only played 2 games against each other previously, and in 1 of those I (correctly) townread you throughout. you're just lying here.

anyway i'm not sweating this any more. I've put in loads of effort in this game but my goose is cooked. Hopefully yours will be tomorrow for throwing me under with such dishonesty and bad faith here. you may feel your post was objective - i vehemently disagree. it read as being entirely orchestrate through a lens of trying to paint me as being scum when you know i'm not.

It may be for nothing anyway, as nobody cares about my reads, except maybe the big man. which is ironic given the amount of bleating about me not giving enough reads here.

Ok, I'm checkin' out - it's been real y'all! Go town

[wdym you read me wrong in both 2009 and Jigsaw. The persistence of your scumread in Jigsaw was impressive. And you did the same thing in 2009. So what game are you referring to..?]

[You actually believing my post was laden in dishonesty and bad faith leaves me in complete and utter disbelief. It's astonishing. There's a decent chance you're town that believes that. It is so frustrating to me.]

~Morning

[Solstice]

VOTE: Creature

[I figured somebody would bring up Creature's meta at some point.]

[with regards to Noraabear, I would definitely need to review there. however my initial guess is that Noraabear is town, MC is town thinking he's onto something, and Bell is scum trying to spin it as MC being scum. Just a guess though, gotta do the reading]

~Morning

[Solstice]

hello i have had a very busy week and have not caught up with thread but mt has been helping me sort of keep up

bell, do you think there's a distinct difference in how MC read noraa in the other game as opposed to this one? not in terms of conclusion but in terms of process

~mist

[Solstice]

Do I really have to go and get the posts where you said Noraa was scum yesterday.
What will that do?

@Solstice did you just shade me and vote somebody else?

[Basically yeah. I don't think Murder is scummy for finding Noraabear scummy. Unless you've got a different reason for the vote on him and I'm misinterpreting. I'm reading Murder's case now though for reals]

~Morning

[Solstice]

Tbh I wrote off noraa hydra really early because her activity this game doesn't line up at all with how I'd expect her to play as scum and she made it abundantly clear in the sign up thread that she wanted to be town this game and I don't think FL would pick her

Her enthusiasm here is so transparent and after being scum with her in Xenoblade 2 I highly doubt she'd be this active and engaged unless she was town

[Ya I think the simplest answer is this, but let us see]

These are the reasons that Noraa is scum:

1. Early tone is over the top and later shifts
2. Same response to pressure as in Death Curse
3. Gloria is too invested in attacking me, given her limited involvement

Spoiler: 1 - Tone

Noraa knows that she has a signature tone as town that is hard for her to fake as scum due to the fact that she doesn't enjoy the role. She also knows that this tone is highly effective on Pooky.

AHEM
*jumps around and hits everyone on the head with a heavy textbook*
IM CONFTOWN
I never ever thought I'd say this in this game but I am AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
*does some breathing exercises*
*breathe in*
*breathe out*
*throws a slipper at murder*
I be happy. Btw atm I wanna yeet shelly to the sun just bc she scummy af. I also wanna yeet UNO to the sun for lurking big time yesterday during the scroll passing periods and alivening the moment a new day starts.
Ahem T^T Mush dont hurt me for the fluff. *hides behind murder*

There is a joyful happiness that exudes from her posting like summer rain.

This post in particular.

It feels extremely pure and innocent.

I believe that Noraa's tone this game is fake and over the top.

me wuz joking btw. me wills follow some rules

Don't use AtE. 100% scum indicative. you use that evilness to pocket me >:(
scum scum scum scum scum scum scum scum scum
HMPH

u thought I would tunnel u. 200% scum indicative.
town!me has been proven to be able to hunt scum!alisaes.
tell the truth. ur scum again aren't you?

back for round two of Lets break Noraa's heart

NOPE. NOT IN MY GOOD CHRISTIAN HOUSEHOLD(im not even christian but like sh)

VOTE: VOTE: VOTE: VOTE: VOTE: Double the trouble

*raises my eyebrow*

O_o
o_O
HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
me shalls give rvs TR lollipops to u two. I expects green apple TR lollipops back tho and they must be green apple or blue raspberry!

For your consideration, two of Noraa's town isos:
viewtopic.php?t=84467&f=2&st=0&sk=t&sd= ... er_sort=Go
viewtopic.php?t=84399&f=11&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

Skim through posts 1-500 in each of those games. Notice how much more exaggerated Noraa is here?

Now you might just look at those posts and think it is within Noraa's normal range, but look at page 2 in her iso.
viewtopic.php?p=12398736&user_select%5B ... #p12398736

Nothing in page 2 of the iso is anything like these first posts, suggesting to me that the tone is fake and she is having trouble keeping it up. Noraa is even aware of this and points it out:

The baby talk will be back tomorrow when I'm less sleepy

Spoiler: 2 - Response to Pressure

Noraa has trouble making up cases as scum. Look at these posts in death curse (links rather than quotes due to length):
8962
9127
9233

Now compare to the case that Noraa has on me in this game:
2513
2523

For full context, the following posts are:
2514
2524

In both cases, there is no actual analysis happening. Noraa is linking a lot of quotes, providing a superficial description of the events, and claiming that I am scum off them without actually providing any reasoning behind her claims just as she did in my last scum game with her.

Spoiler: 3 - Gloria

Before I begin this section on Gloria, it is important to point out that I am

not

making a case based on activity here. I believe that Gloria has had RL stuff going on and I don't use arguments like that because, as I said with BM, I think it's kinda shitty. However, given Gloria's lack of activity you would not expect her to 1. be particularly invested in the game and 2. have strong opinions about me. However, there are a number of instances that suggest to me that Gloria is in a scum PT and is aware of certain pushes that need to be made (currently, this refers to attacking me, in an attempt to reduce the influence that I am having on the game as I am correct about Noraa scum).

First, some evidence that Gloria shouldn't be very aware of the gamestate:

Pichu, Gloria isnt feeling well or something.

She's been talking to me a little bit about the game but methinks she's either sick or sad.

Apparently they haven't been talking very much about the game. Fair enough. Now let's look at the Gloria posts that come after this.

VOTE: Murderkitty

I don’t like the way he’s been pushing us, it feels very disingenuous to me. He sees Noraa as easy miselimbait and I feel didn’t engage me in good faith.

DT shading us for my not posting enough is also bas but they might actually believe it. I don’t trust murderkitty and how he’s been trying to drive a miselim without following up on the answers to the questions he asked of me. What happened to that MC? Why did you ask me those questions, then fail to follow up on them? Why didn’t you ask me to explain or elaborate on those reads? You just dropped it altogether. I want to know why and I’m not moving my vote until you explain this.

This is a strong reaction for someone barely following the game and against someone who Noraa had not really been pushing at all, no?

Well we are a hydra, so are you saying you’re townreading me?

Well I’m really trying. If you recall I think it was either my first or second post to LLD in Death Curse was I expect to be generally useless early game and I wasn’t going through that rl thing at that time. I’m not good at larges. I get lost with the sheer number of players I have to sort, pages to read etc.

I still like Ydrasee because she’s engaging a slot and Pichu and I think this is probably town! MT we’re seeing. Wrt BM I did like their sincerity but as I said before I have no meta on them and if Noraa’s right about them being TPR then it’s obviously a bad wagon.

I’m kind’ve wondering why DT has ignored my posts about my rl issues and how I even said that Pooky can confirm I’m having a rough time of it. @DT, did you just skip those posts because you called my lack of activity scum indicative despite my posts literally telling you that Pooky can verify I was telling the truth about that, so why the unwarrented shade on me for that?

This to me feels like someone who is more aware of the gamestate than they are letting on. Once again, I am not suggesting that Gloria isn't dealing with real stuff. I am suggesting she is getting info from a scum PT and has an agenda that she is pushing. There is no effort, for example, to look through my iso after accusing me to see what she has missed. To me, this is behavior from someone who is over-informed and pushing something on the thread, not a townie who is trying to get back into the game.

I may not be the greatest mafia player ever, but I know when I've caught scum. I let Pooky and mastina run the show D1 and we missed. Let me take my shot.

VOTE: Polar Bear Express

[Tone stuff like that varies wildly for me personally depending on my mood. Essentially the variable here is that Noraa had some exaggerated posts early in this game (but didn't have em later). While you might be able to say that she's getting tired of it.. you could also say that the "tired" state is actually her default and the exaggerated bits were the actual deviation]

[I have no idea if that makes any sense. The early bits are the unusual part perhaps, due to excitement for this game. So when she isn't doing it in page 2 of her ISO here, that's because she's actually town -- not because she got tired. That's my current theory about that, but lets continue]

[You make a fair point that Noraa's cases are, a lot of times, pointing at posts and saying "scummy" at them. Are you sure this is a scum-indicative trait for her, though? I'm open to hearing more about this point, but I think the parallel you are drawing here is fair.]

[I believe that Gloria's pushback on you could very well be a result of her tendency to OMGUS. She could have hyper-focused on you as a result of it, and decided you are scum, and focused mostly on that. I think Gloria will also be more readable in the future when she has more time (not saying this as a general statement, I just feel like we will probably read the hydra correctly given enough posting there)]

[Overall I lean that this is a genuine case (although I am not certain yet), but I also do not think this is enough to say Noraabear is scum.]

[I really want to think this is genuine because I also thought that particular post by Noraa defending BM was really odd earlier. Like, it felt out of place, and I think you definitely picked up on that and ran with it. But, I don't think they're scum for it anymore.]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[I figured somebody would bring up Creature's meta at some point.]

idk why you out of all players would still believe this bullshit.

Oh well you probably benefit from my mislynch anyway.

[what is this supposed to mean? I have heard that you are demotivated as scum -- although I'm obviously not sold on that one point. I recall having slight scumpings early on you so whatever I will vote it and see]

[In any case, is this your actual reasoning for suspecting me?]

~Morning

[Solstice]

fuck it.

VOTE: Murdercat

Horrid vote

[Yeah I thought this was odd, I vaguely felt like that isn't a genuine thought process from Bell suspecting Murder, but might be wrong]

[You make a fair point that Noraa's cases are, a lot of times, pointing at posts and saying "scummy" at them. Are you sure this is a scum-indicative trait for her, though? I'm open to hearing more about this point, but I think the parallel you are drawing here is fair.]

I linked town isos, you are welcome to look. I haven't seen her do it as town in ... 4 games I've played with her where she was town?

[O missed that bit somehow. Will do..]

Oh nvm you're Morning Tweet. I would believe Mistyx would be the most aware about this kind of bullshit.

[Ahhhhh okay. That makes sense because she warned me of that right after I did the vote. Im kinda giving up on the gas early but yeah, i don't think you're like, strongly scum for that point.]

~Morning

[Solstice]

MT play misty for me

[am i not good enough (ノ﹏ヽ) ]

Good morning villagers

@Murdercat, they're not scum. I read your old argument, I read their posts. I've read their reactions to pressure. Scum emulate their own town games and their own response to pressure because it's like what they normally would do. You pushing at Noraa town is scummy asf.

[Aha I found Bell's reasoning. My reading comprehension isn't so strong at the moment, bear with me. Okay so I was right that he finds Murder pushing at Noraabear!town scummy and that's basically it.]

[I suppose what I want to know is -- why? Why do you believe that is scummy for Murder to do, Bell? if it's possible to elaborate on, anyway]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[@Ircher, My read on you D1 could be summed up as "Opposes townreads on people i think are town and also I tend to disagree with the stuff i have read from". After a certain point i stopped reading your posts though, so i couldn't good faith call my read on you a scumread. that's what i meant by "get a real read"]

[what is the primary cause for you behind putting this much effort into a game? I've never seen you make posts this big before, at least I do not believe so]

He slow rolled his read of noraa to today. It's like watching someone preparing for the batting box in the deck circle. He's lining it up.
You could argue it's trejectory instead but iso him halfway at the end of the day and tell me you don't see it.

[I see. I will definitely think about this when i got time to review. it also is certainly possible that scum!Murdercat is trying to mirror that D1 confidence he had in his reads during Death Scroll (like, they were wrong but he was very sure of them so it came off as towny).]

~Morning

[Dammit]

~Morning

[Solstice]

*flops ears*

you wouldn't be scum here would you tweetie?

[course not! And i'm planning on high efforting so long as i get ear flops as reward if i get scum right. deal? pleaaaaase]

[ill do it anyway even if you dont but it'd be niiceee]

~Morning

[Solstice]

hello i have had a very busy week and have not caught up with thread but mt has been helping me sort of keep up

bell, do you think there's a distinct difference in how MC read noraa in the other game as opposed to this one? not in terms of conclusion but in terms of process

~mist

Yes, now that I think about it, the process is different here. But he was more laid back there the context to this game is different so I would expect a different method. For example, Murder just try harded and I don't think I saw a single try hard case in our last game together.

so if you're expecting a different method do you still think it's scummy?

~mist

[Solstice]

[am i not good enough (ノ﹏ヽ) ]

it deeply saddens me that Misty isn't playing

I have had a Lot of Work this week im sorry

~mist

[Solstice]

Mistyx is still underwhelming but maybe that can be explained by mafiascum's nature of making otherwise active MU users become slanky here.

its an aura i dont get it

~mist

[Solstice]

I appreciate the site starting to lag when I finally have time to post

~mist

[Solstice]

The reason I dropped the babytalk is cuz I've been feeling super moody lately. I made some alts with more serious personalities to help me have some sort of outlet for my anger/sadness from various things. I was having one hell of a time trying to be happy this game. Im not trying to guilt trip/AtE with this but I just wanted to say that you don't understand what's happening on my side of the screen and a bubbly online personality isn't easy to keep when you're not feeling that way. I won't mention this again but I do hope you take this into account if you actually are town.

[Can confirm this is how cutesy talk works (and subsequently why that portion of the Noraa case doesn't work for me)]

Creature doesn't seem to justify any of his votes/reads which ... this may sound mean but is far less than what I expect from someone with a 2016 join date.

Ok short reads list for Ircher.

Ircher - promoted to TL
mastina - still think they are a strong TR, yesterdays entire play spewed town
Solstice - also think strong TR, yesterdays entire play also spewed town, especially the case on BM, felt extremely genuine
Pichu - demoted to TL
after these three there basically are only nulls/SRs
The most important ones imo are probably
Murder- strong SR
Double - SL
Creature- SL

Something like this?
The SRs is messy. I'm not really decided cuz I feel like a ton of people look really scummy if u sit down and think about it and there are places where Gloria didn't really agree so .. idk.

[I do really feel like Noraabear is town here. I think it's going to stay evident as we move forward as well because Noraa's scum play seems to fall apart later when she has to case the last remaining townies. i don't know how to explain this read beyond what's already been said. She's engaged and giving reads and solving etc whatever idk she's too comfortable. I also think Gloria will obvtown probably assuming theyre town]

[now I wanna know if Murder is being genuine or not because I still haven't exactly decided. Initial reaction was yes, he's genuine with this, does remind me of how Murder likes to find the scum (see D1 of death curse where he hard pushed a bunch of ppl to death). Maybe a more accurate way to describe is that he wants to "be the one who finds the scum". I got this impression from how competitive he and Pooky were in that game. Anyway, this confidence and "let me shoot my shot" attitude reminds me of that.]

[At the same time, I recall him garnering townreads for his hard confidence on a few townies being scum (and subsequent sadness when they weren't), so it's possible he's trying to emulate that again by taking a hard stance on a player who will flip town.]

He slow rolled his read of noraa to today. It's like watching someone preparing for the batting box in the deck circle. He's lining it up.
You could argue it's trejectory instead but iso him halfway at the end of the day and tell me you don't see it.

[Now here's how Bell saw it. I would kinda expect town!Murder to have a similar progression -- but I haven't read it so! let's do that. I am actually extremely interested in whether or not Murder comes off as fake]

Spoiler: MURDERCAT on Noraabear

Murder, did you draw scum? What makes you think this is obviously town!Noraa? Why does townreading Noraa rn equate to being town?

I think there is a perception that Noraa is a strong scum player, but I don't think scum Noraa would do well in this setup. I don't think Flavor took such an obvious pick, especially considering Noraa tends to not do well under pressure. Noraa is also lim bait despite her claims, and this is a pretty strong plist so there's not a lot of easy miselims, another reason FL wouldn't pick there. Also I think mastina is scummy for 25 and I expect scum to use Noraa as a place to park votes on D1. It is possible that Bell scum is being specifically coached to pocket Noraa, but I would think that scum would be a bit more subtle about it. There's also other reasons to TR Bell, like he doesn't really like playing scum.

[i am of the same opinion with regards to Noraabear being drafted. Wonder what Murder thinks of this now]

I'm pretty sure that's the extent of my Noraa knowledge.

You should skim a town iso of hers before you call her scum for blatant OMGUS

[This is really similar to one of your points against Noraa]

Noraa has trouble making up cases as scum. Look at these posts in death curse (links rather than quotes due to length):
8962
9127
9233

Now compare to the case that Noraa has on me in this game:
2513
2523

For full context, the following posts are:
2514
2524

In both cases, there is no actual analysis happening. Noraa is linking a lot of quotes, providing a superficial description of the events, and claiming that I am scum off them without actually providing any reasoning behind her claims just as she did in my last scum game with her.

[It's not exactly the same -- you are slamming her for "Terrible casing / lack of analysis", which is a bit different from blatant omgus, but still.]

[I think it is worth noting Noraa was absolutely forced into scumcasing you in Death Curse -- it was a 1v1 situation. Her resulting case was not great, likely as a result of that. here she doesn't have to do that. Additionally, 2514 and 2524 are really not the same as that Death Curse Xylo. Those two posts are meant to quote your read progression on BM and highlight why it makes you and BM have partner equity. I don't really think it's a standalone case for you being scum. Sure it's mostly quoting and summarizing, but i dont think the point was to scumcase you.]

Noraa SRing Ircher because Ircher said she is a strong town player is 10/10
And honestly I'm here for it because I think that was a weak buddy attempt.
Noraa you might actually be on this game.

[So clearly Murder wasn't planning this from the very start of the game, at least that much is evident. I see that he generally had Noraabear as townleaning]

I'm getting shivers from 1845

VOTE: Polar Bear Express

[And here we go. as a refresher:]

You know what? I think I want Double the Trouble dead today.
1) BM softed pr. theres a big possibility he'll be cleared/guiltied overnight and we'll be set and fine tomorrow without the risk of mislimmed a pr day 1. There really is no rush and if he's softing pr, we shouldn't be risking mislimming a pr. The activity argument is kind of damning but I've been criticized of not posting enough in town games before so idk how much weight I wanna put in it. I believe Mastina is passionate and believes in this read but I am not that convinced and I think theres plenty of time to sort this slot and maybe his night action can clear him, etc.
2) Double looks terrible. Each head has thrown shade and then the moment someone criticizes, the other heads like "eyyooo I don't agree with it so alls good"
3) Ircher wagon is dying and he is STILL one of my main SRs
4) Dunn is not happening today and
hold up I gtg.

[As you might recall, I had weird feelings from this post too. It felt jarring when i read it. I don't know how to describe it. To clarify now though -- this one post is not going to make me think Noraabear is scum, it's not *that* bad. It was just odd enough to make me reevaluate Noraabear for a little while.]

I don’t like the way he’s been pushing us, it feels very disingenuous to me. He sees Noraa as easy miselimbait and I feel didn’t engage me in good faith.

You haven't been here and I haven't even given my reasoning yet lol

This is what Murderkitty is trying to kill us over? When did not wanting to possibly risk miseliming a TPR get considered scummy?

nope

Well we are a hydra, so are you saying you’re townreading me?

I'm kinda nothing reading you because to be honest you haven't been around much. If you continue to solve then I'll reconsider the slot but for now I'm going of Noraa content and I have reason to believe she's scum for it. I'm still not going to get into it unless Pooky asks for it.

[What was the point of holding off?]

BM I think you basically have to go at some point this game for multiple reasons. I'd rather do Noraa first but I think you probably need to go some time and you won't get NK'd. If you are town I empathize with your position but it really seemed like you were softing to me.

why do I need to go first?
you are the third person to say you empathize with him after Norwee and I.
why do you feel the need to make sure everyone knows you were dead set that he was softing?

I think I see why Gloria didn't like you that much.

-nornor

I don't even know what to say to this lol

why can't you reply?

Can you associate anything in that post with a reason to SR me?

If it flips red, I think u've been very over-explainy and mushy around the BM wagon which makes you a very likely partner. If it flips green, ur probs still scum anyways.

Lol

[Noraabear isn't exactly responding with detailed analysis to scumread Murder, to be fair.]

Well I will be posting a Noraa case if Pooky wants it.
Though maybe it is just fine to do it, I'm not sure if there is supposed to be more with BM or not?

What do you guys think? I think his play here seems very different.

Lol did you even read the games or are you just gunna link my 4 year old isos?

[I think Norrabear are forcing a scumread on Murdercat here and I am starting to become sympathetic with murdercat interpreting this as a scumtell from them as it is reminiscent of endgame Death Curse, sure.]

Are you even reading my posts? Check the link before you embarrass yourself with this nonsence shade.

Yeah you linked a 4 year old game, said nothing about it, and linked death curse.
What in that game is like what I am doing in this game?

[It's like, yeah -- linking stuff and not saying much else is similar to what Noraa did endgame in Death Curse. She's not automatically scum for it though -- and you yourself pointed out that blatant weak OMGUS isn't a reason to scumread Noraa. Also, why would scum!Noraa feel the need to OMGUS you over town!noraa exactly? She

had

to do it in Death Curse, there was no choice. Here she could do whatever she wants and she's choosing to OMGUS but still doesnt really have to. like there's no pressure on Noraa to fake a case here -- and that's exactly why I think the case in Death Curse was so weak. Here it is

easily

driven by emotion or gut pings or whatever]

[But I see the similarity. It's not inconceivable to me that town!Murdercat sees this as scummy. Continuing]

@Pooky
Should I do the Noraa thing or should we let the solstice thing happen. Because there's like gunna be like 50 pages of ate from Noraa once I do it.
Also like, you know I'm town right? And what I'm doing? Because I want you to trust me on this Noraa case, I don't want it turned around on me.

I think Pooky feels bad. But can I offer you obv scum Noraa?

[I really am starting to lean in the direction that Murder is for real. i don't think scum!him hard pushing town!Noraa is really going to give that great of a payoff.]

Noraa we talked about this you can't just quote my iso you have to give reasons why it's scummy

[This is a direct quote from Death Curse i believe]

I am reading your posts and giving them about as much thought as I am giving FLs.
Thanks for the content though, this is exactly what I was hoping for.

This is a really shitty mindset to have but whatever.

perspective slip

[WARNING: THIS READ NEVER WORKS BUT I TRY IT ANYWAY]

[i feel like Murder is being a bit of a dick here if he's scum into town!Noraa, because this behaviour towards her isn't justified at all. like he has to actually believe he has the right to ignore her posts in order for this to not be a dick move in his eyes. BUt this read doesnt fucking work like i would think it would so whatever. Okay it works sometimes but not enough for me to be satisfied with it.]

[It's like -- he says something mean if Noraa is town, but he is so sure that she isn't, that he then proceeds to call her post where obviously her feelings are a bit hurt by it a "perspective slip". like lol]

it's not tho. It never is.

Are you TRing Noraa? Have you read 1845?

[I see that 1845 still produces a great visceral reaction deep in murdercat's gut (presumably)]

Every time
you talk to Noraa
without giving a read on her
I get closer to voting you

[Reminds me of Murder getting overconfident he has the solve D1 in Death Curse. Eerily so. is it more likely he is aware of that play and tries to emulate it, or that he is simply just playing similarly? probably the latter]

Nah I'm gunna go for Noraa still

[I mean.. he did what he said he was gonna do.]

He slow rolled his read of noraa to today. It's like watching someone preparing for the batting box in the deck circle. He's lining it up.
You could argue it's trejectory instead but iso him halfway at the end of the day and tell me you don't see it.

[Bell, you kinda describe it like he was subtle about it, or maybe I misunderstood. But Murdercat basically was yelling Noraabear is scum for the entire second half of D1, which i don't necessarily find scummy I guess. I don't interpret it as scum trying to be consistent because I feel like it'd look the same as either alignment, at the very least? this is like what i'd expect him to do either way.]

[Made it. there are a few reasons I don't think Murder is being disingenuous here..]

[A.) Shared initial bad feelings towards 1845]
[B.) Noraabear's response to his push is mostly weak OMGUS to be fair, and some parts do resemble Noraa's endgame play in Death Curse. I do

not

interpret this as scummy for her, however]
[C.) For better or for worse, the overconfidence in Noraabear being scum is just what I observed from Murdercat in Death Curse. Like he was pretty much basing his opinion on BM off of Noraa.]
[D.) I shouldn't believe in this stuff but I feel like he was being too mean to Noraa if he doesn't actually believe they're hard scum.]
[and most important E.) With regards to Bell's point that he's been lining up the Noraa push. Yes, he set the precedent for today -- it was clear this is what he was going to do. However, I don't see how that is necessarily scummy. How do you differentiate this from a townie having a strong vanity scumread D1 -> casing them overnight -> come out swinging D2? There was no subtlety to this behaviour from Murdercat, as well, like he said he was gonna do this and he did it. If Bell's point is that Murdercat kinda strategically laid back on casing Noraa until now, then I guess that is something i'm curious about. I'm not really sure what the point of holding off on saying why he thought Noraabear is scummy was, and I can see why Bell would interpret this as scummy. I see that Murdercat says it was because he wanted to let Pooky do his thing first.]

[so that's where I'm at. I ended up sticking with my initial reaction, but I am much more solid on Noraabear!town now, and I do feel that this is a real case from Murder, although I don't give that the same degree of certainty I give the Noraa read.]

[I would very much like to hear more about

Bell

's interpretation of Murder's Noraabear progression if possible as we have reached opposite conclusions. It is possible I misunderstood what you meant by "slowrolling" the read.]

[I also have a question for

Murdercat

: How does giving your reasoning for Noraabear being scum on D1 impede Pooky's ability to work? (like how you held off in 2069)]

~Morning

[Solstice]

I talked it out with MT for a little bit and we ended up with a loose towncore of Polar/Ydrasse/mastina, with pichu/Dunn/Ircher just below

rest of the list is still mostly in progress

~mist

[Solstice]

SO.

For the case.

(murdercat's case)

I can give no judgement on tone, but on the parts of the game that are actually things I can assess: this case feels very wrong, very narrow-minded, very manipulative, very specific, and not accurate at all.

Does that mean it's wrong? I'm not a Noraa guru, heck if I know.

But I can tell you as someone who doesn't know Noraa, that the case on her does look like it's not valid.

[I agree it's wrong. however while reviewing Murdercat's ISO, I felt there was some reason to believe he would make this case as town. For example, Noraabear's response to his pressure is similar in some ways to Death Curse, for example the "quote something and say it's scummy" response she does.]

[i am interested in continuing to track Murdercat's progression on Noraabear though cause I'm not certain, because yeah, he is only taking evidence that supports his case (for example, earlier

this game

he points out that bad OMGUS isn't a scumtell for Noraa.]

I have a hard time reading both Solstice and Irchers posts. They are so annoyingly long. Solstice also is so waffly, just state your reads you god damn politician.

- Norwee

[Noraabear -- Town]
[Murdercat -- Lean case on Noraabear is genuine, although not certain, so lean town]
[Bell -- further review required as I don't agree with the Murdercat vote and it clashes with what I got from reviewing there.]

I’d usually call players town for mucho texto, but Solstice feels like they are just blabbering and blabbering, but saying nothing of real importance.
Might be the type of scum player that just narrates the game and does a whole bunch of IIoA without actually solving. Either way, i’m not a big fan of them anymore.

- Norwee

[Seriously? reminds me of Flavour Leaf accusing me of IIoA in Zoey's Extraordinary Mafia]

[I was scum there of course. But how are you getting IIoA here? There i was just doing summaries with only a little bit of analysis. The only similarity is that my posts here and there were both pretty large. in Zoey's, I wasn't actually reaching conclusions for the large part, i was just trying to make it seem like i was super invested in reviewing and catching up on the game. here i'm actually reviewing things I care about]

[i just wanna know how you're getting the impression I'm narrating the game]

Can we not keep pushing the exact same people who we know will flip town just like BM did?

[AKA you, orr..?]

~Morning

[Solstice]

Yes, Pichu is very scummy,

[why]

don't ask me why.

[oh]

[I also have a question for Murdercat: How does giving your reasoning for Noraabear being scum on D1 impede Pooky's ability to work? (like how you held off in 2069)]

I thought I would be more convincing

[lol]

Spoiler:

The reason I dropped the babytalk is cuz I've been feeling super moody lately. I made some alts with more serious personalities to help me have some sort of outlet for my anger/sadness from various things. I was having one hell of a time trying to be happy this game. Im not trying to guilt trip/AtE with this but I just wanted to say that you don't understand what's happening on my side of the screen and a bubbly online personality isn't easy to keep when you're not feeling that way. I won't mention this again but I do hope you take this into account if you actually are town.

[Can confirm this is how cutesy talk works (and subsequently why that portion of the Noraa case doesn't work for me)]

Creature doesn't seem to justify any of his votes/reads which ... this may sound mean but is far less than what I expect from someone with a 2016 join date.

Ok short reads list for Ircher.

Ircher - promoted to TL
mastina - still think they are a strong TR, yesterdays entire play spewed town
Solstice - also think strong TR, yesterdays entire play also spewed town, especially the case on BM, felt extremely genuine
Pichu - demoted to TL
after these three there basically are only nulls/SRs
The most important ones imo are probably
Murder- strong SR
Double - SL
Creature- SL

Something like this?
The SRs is messy. I'm not really decided cuz I feel like a ton of people look really scummy if u sit down and think about it and there are places where Gloria didn't really agree so .. idk.

[I do really feel like Noraabear is town here. I think it's going to stay evident as we move forward as well because Noraa's scum play seems to fall apart later when she has to case the last remaining townies. i don't know how to explain this read beyond what's already been said. She's engaged and giving reads and solving etc whatever idk she's too comfortable. I also think Gloria will obvtown probably assuming theyre town]

[now I wanna know if Murder is being genuine or not because I still haven't exactly decided. Initial reaction was yes, he's genuine with this, does remind me of how Murder likes to find the scum (see D1 of death curse where he hard pushed a bunch of ppl to death). Maybe a more accurate way to describe is that he wants to "be the one who finds the scum". I got this impression from how competitive he and Pooky were in that game. Anyway, this confidence and "let me shoot my shot" attitude reminds me of that.]

[At the same time, I recall him garnering townreads for his hard confidence on a few townies being scum (and subsequent sadness when they weren't), so it's possible he's trying to emulate that again by taking a hard stance on a player who will flip town.]

He slow rolled his read of noraa to today. It's like watching someone preparing for the batting box in the deck circle. He's lining it up.
You could argue it's trejectory instead but iso him halfway at the end of the day and tell me you don't see it.

[Now here's how Bell saw it. I would kinda expect town!Murder to have a similar progression -- but I haven't read it so! let's do that. I am actually extremely interested in whether or not Murder comes off as fake]

Spoiler: MURDERCAT on Noraabear

Murder, did you draw scum? What makes you think this is obviously town!Noraa? Why does townreading Noraa rn equate to being town?

I think there is a perception that Noraa is a strong scum player, but I don't think scum Noraa would do well in this setup. I don't think Flavor took such an obvious pick, especially considering Noraa tends to not do well under pressure. Noraa is also lim bait despite her claims, and this is a pretty strong plist so there's not a lot of easy miselims, another reason FL wouldn't pick there. Also I think mastina is scummy for 25 and I expect scum to use Noraa as a place to park votes on D1. It is possible that Bell scum is being specifically coached to pocket Noraa, but I would think that scum would be a bit more subtle about it. There's also other reasons to TR Bell, like he doesn't really like playing scum.

[i am of the same opinion with regards to Noraabear being drafted. Wonder what Murder thinks of this now]

I'm pretty sure that's the extent of my Noraa knowledge.

You should skim a town iso of hers before you call her scum for blatant OMGUS

[This is really similar to one of your points against Noraa]

Noraa has trouble making up cases as scum. Look at these posts in death curse (links rather than quotes due to length):
8962
9127
9233

Now compare to the case that Noraa has on me in this game:
2513
2523

For full context, the following posts are:
2514
2524

In both cases, there is no actual analysis happening. Noraa is linking a lot of quotes, providing a superficial description of the events, and claiming that I am scum off them without actually providing any reasoning behind her claims just as she did in my last scum game with her.

[It's not exactly the same -- you are slamming her for "Terrible casing / lack of analysis", which is a bit different from blatant omgus, but still.]

[I think it is worth noting Noraa was absolutely forced into scumcasing you in Death Curse -- it was a 1v1 situation. Her resulting case was not great, likely as a result of that. here she doesn't have to do that. Additionally, 2514 and 2524 are really not the same as that Death Curse Xylo. Those two posts are meant to quote your read progression on BM and highlight why it makes you and BM have partner equity. I don't really think it's a standalone case for you being scum. Sure it's mostly quoting and summarizing, but i dont think the point was to scumcase you.]

Noraa SRing Ircher because Ircher said she is a strong town player is 10/10
And honestly I'm here for it because I think that was a weak buddy attempt.
Noraa you might actually be on this game.

[So clearly Murder wasn't planning this from the very start of the game, at least that much is evident. I see that he generally had Noraabear as townleaning]

I'm getting shivers from 1845

VOTE: Polar Bear Express

[And here we go. as a refresher:]

You know what? I think I want Double the Trouble dead today.
1) BM softed pr. theres a big possibility he'll be cleared/guiltied overnight and we'll be set and fine tomorrow without the risk of mislimmed a pr day 1. There really is no rush and if he's softing pr, we shouldn't be risking mislimming a pr. The activity argument is kind of damning but I've been criticized of not posting enough in town games before so idk how much weight I wanna put in it. I believe Mastina is passionate and believes in this read but I am not that convinced and I think theres plenty of time to sort this slot and maybe his night action can clear him, etc.
2) Double looks terrible. Each head has thrown shade and then the moment someone criticizes, the other heads like "eyyooo I don't agree with it so alls good"
3) Ircher wagon is dying and he is STILL one of my main SRs
4) Dunn is not happening today and
hold up I gtg.

[As you might recall, I had weird feelings from this post too. It felt jarring when i read it. I don't know how to describe it. To clarify now though -- this one post is not going to make me think Noraabear is scum, it's not *that* bad. It was just odd enough to make me reevaluate Noraabear for a little while.]

I don’t like the way he’s been pushing us, it feels very disingenuous to me. He sees Noraa as easy miselimbait and I feel didn’t engage me in good faith.

You haven't been here and I haven't even given my reasoning yet lol

This is what Murderkitty is trying to kill us over? When did not wanting to possibly risk miseliming a TPR get considered scummy?

nope

Well we are a hydra, so are you saying you’re townreading me?

I'm kinda nothing reading you because to be honest you haven't been around much. If you continue to solve then I'll reconsider the slot but for now I'm going of Noraa content and I have reason to believe she's scum for it. I'm still not going to get into it unless Pooky asks for it.

[What was the point of holding off?]

BM I think you basically have to go at some point this game for multiple reasons. I'd rather do Noraa first but I think you probably need to go some time and you won't get NK'd. If you are town I empathize with your position but it really seemed like you were softing to me.

why do I need to go first?
you are the third person to say you empathize with him after Norwee and I.
why do you feel the need to make sure everyone knows you were dead set that he was softing?

I think I see why Gloria didn't like you that much.

-nornor

I don't even know what to say to this lol

why can't you reply?

Can you associate anything in that post with a reason to SR me?

If it flips red, I think u've been very over-explainy and mushy around the BM wagon which makes you a very likely partner. If it flips green, ur probs still scum anyways.

Lol

[Noraabear isn't exactly responding with detailed analysis to scumread Murder, to be fair.]

Well I will be posting a Noraa case if Pooky wants it.
Though maybe it is just fine to do it, I'm not sure if there is supposed to be more with BM or not?

What do you guys think? I think his play here seems very different.

Lol did you even read the games or are you just gunna link my 4 year old isos?

[I think Norrabear are forcing a scumread on Murdercat here and I am starting to become sympathetic with murdercat interpreting this as a scumtell from them as it is reminiscent of endgame Death Curse, sure.]

Are you even reading my posts? Check the link before you embarrass yourself with this nonsence shade.

Yeah you linked a 4 year old game, said nothing about it, and linked death curse.
What in that game is like what I am doing in this game?

[It's like, yeah -- linking stuff and not saying much else is similar to what Noraa did endgame in Death Curse. She's not automatically scum for it though -- and you yourself pointed out that blatant weak OMGUS isn't a reason to scumread Noraa. Also, why would scum!Noraa feel the need to OMGUS you over town!noraa exactly? She

had

to do it in Death Curse, there was no choice. Here she could do whatever she wants and she's choosing to OMGUS but still doesnt really have to. like there's no pressure on Noraa to fake a case here -- and that's exactly why I think the case in Death Curse was so weak. Here it is

easily

driven by emotion or gut pings or whatever]

[But I see the similarity. It's not inconceivable to me that town!Murdercat sees this as scummy. Continuing]

@Pooky
Should I do the Noraa thing or should we let the solstice thing happen. Because there's like gunna be like 50 pages of ate from Noraa once I do it.
Also like, you know I'm town right? And what I'm doing? Because I want you to trust me on this Noraa case, I don't want it turned around on me.

I think Pooky feels bad. But can I offer you obv scum Noraa?

[I really am starting to lean in the direction that Murder is for real. i don't think scum!him hard pushing town!Noraa is really going to give that great of a payoff.]

Noraa we talked about this you can't just quote my iso you have to give reasons why it's scummy

[This is a direct quote from Death Curse i believe]

I am reading your posts and giving them about as much thought as I am giving FLs.
Thanks for the content though, this is exactly what I was hoping for.

This is a really shitty mindset to have but whatever.

perspective slip

[WARNING: THIS READ NEVER WORKS BUT I TRY IT ANYWAY]

[i feel like Murder is being a bit of a dick here if he's scum into town!Noraa, because this behaviour towards her isn't justified at all. like he has to actually believe he has the right to ignore her posts in order for this to not be a dick move in his eyes. BUt this read doesnt fucking work like i would think it would so whatever. Okay it works sometimes but not enough for me to be satisfied with it.]

[It's like -- he says something mean if Noraa is town, but he is so sure that she isn't, that he then proceeds to call her post where obviously her feelings are a bit hurt by it a "perspective slip". like lol]

it's not tho. It never is.

Are you TRing Noraa? Have you read 1845?

[I see that 1845 still produces a great visceral reaction deep in murdercat's gut (presumably)]

Every time
you talk to Noraa
without giving a read on her
I get closer to voting you

[Reminds me of Murder getting overconfident he has the solve D1 in Death Curse. Eerily so. is it more likely he is aware of that play and tries to emulate it, or that he is simply just playing similarly? probably the latter]

Nah I'm gunna go for Noraa still

[I mean.. he did what he said he was gonna do.]

He slow rolled his read of noraa to today. It's like watching someone preparing for the batting box in the deck circle. He's lining it up.
You could argue it's trejectory instead but iso him halfway at the end of the day and tell me you don't see it.

[Bell, you kinda describe it like he was subtle about it, or maybe I misunderstood. But Murdercat basically was yelling Noraabear is scum for the entire second half of D1, which i don't necessarily find scummy I guess. I don't interpret it as scum trying to be consistent because I feel like it'd look the same as either alignment, at the very least? this is like what i'd expect him to do either way.]
[Made it. there are a few reasons I don't think Murder is being disingenuous here..]

[A.) Shared initial bad feelings towards 1845]
[B.) Noraabear's response to his push is mostly weak OMGUS to be fair, and some parts do resemble Noraa's endgame play in Death Curse. I do

not

interpret this as scummy for her, however]
[C.) For better or for worse, the overconfidence in Noraabear being scum is just what I observed from Murdercat in Death Curse. Like he was pretty much basing his opinion on BM off of Noraa.]
[D.) I shouldn't believe in this stuff but I feel like he was being too mean to Noraa if he doesn't actually believe they're hard scum.]
[and most important E.) With regards to Bell's point that he's been lining up the Noraa push. Yes, he set the precedent for today -- it was clear this is what he was going to do. However, I don't see how that is necessarily scummy. How do you differentiate this from a townie having a strong vanity scumread D1 -> casing them overnight -> come out swinging D2? There was no subtlety to this behaviour from Murdercat, as well, like he said he was gonna do this and he did it. If Bell's point is that Murdercat kinda strategically laid back on casing Noraa until now, then I guess that is something i'm curious about. I'm not really sure what the point of holding off on saying why he thought Noraabear is scummy was, and I can see why Bell would interpret this as scummy. I see that Murdercat says it was because he wanted to let Pooky do his thing first.]

[so that's where I'm at. I ended up sticking with my initial reaction, but I am much more solid on Noraabear!town now, and I do feel that this is a real case from Murder, although I don't give that the same degree of certainty I give the Noraa read.]

[I would very much like to hear more about

Bell

's interpretation of Murder's Noraabear progression if possible as we have reached opposite conclusions. It is possible I misunderstood what you meant by "slowrolling" the read.]

[I also have a question for

Murdercat

: How does giving your reasoning for Noraabear being scum on D1 impede Pooky's ability to work? (like how you held off in 2069)]

~Morning

I just want to say that I thinks it’s funny that you’ve mixed up some of my posts with Noraa’s.

[oops]

[opinion on those posts still stands tho]

When town gets their reads wrong like yours on BM, they tend to re-evaluate. Why aren’t you? If you’re town which I’m still seriously doubting

You are seriously overstating my read on BM

[Yes they are. no they're not scum.]

[This is TvT, it's got to be and now i need to devote more time proving that (or disproving it i suppose). Maybe I do that another time when it's more important though because i think Murdercat and Noraabear are only on the chopping block for each other for the most part. Obviously Bell thinks MC is full of shit but we'll get there, we'll get there]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[Seriously? reminds me of Flavour Leaf accusing me of IIoA in Zoey's Extraordinary Mafia]

[I was scum there of course. But how are you getting IIoA here? There i was just doing summaries with only a little bit of analysis. The only similarity is that my posts here and there were both pretty large. in Zoey's, I wasn't actually reaching conclusions for the large part, i was just trying to make it seem like i was super invested in reviewing and catching up on the game. here i'm actually reviewing things I care about]

[i just wanna know how you're getting the impression I'm narrating the game]

You don't seem to have a clear stance you want to get across, maybe you do because i've skipped many of your lengthy posts. But overall it doesn't seem like you're pushing any actual goals or agenda. Like you have nothing to really do in this game other than appear busy.
Maybe i'm wrong, but this is the impression i get from your overly long posts that barely have any impact on the game.

- Norwee

[I suppose i don't expect everyone to read them, but they're a record of my thought process as i try to analyze things i think are important. I could do it in notes but i didnt so yea]

[I think lack of strong agenda is generally a trait of mine, sure. other than maybe a supportive one which i usually take -- i don't usually case scum, i usually case town and review other people's scumcases]

[pedit: WE'LL GET THERE WHEN WE GET THERE]

[I'm entertaining Bell!scum but I want to have a chance to speak with Bell more about his suspicion of Murdercat, as i identified one thing that mayybe i could see being genuine in Bell's interpretation. For the large part I lean that Bell doesn't really think Murdercat is scummy for attacking Noraa -- it's just a fabricated stance. Even the "fuck it" didn't scream terribly genuine. But so far he hasn't expanded on his reasoning too much]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[Gonna comment on Pichu's bell case in such a way that is hopefully readable for the Double Trouble hydra as well as anyone else who doesn't want to read giant spoilers]

[Sure the interactions with FL are a tad stilted yeah. Could see the hard townread on Noraa being too much, and then he's leaning on that too much in his response to Murdercat. I think in particular, Bell admitting he didn't read Murder's case and just attacking Murder for the notion of suspecting Noraa is odd.]

[I never saw 2500. just how different am I from usual this game? Every single person in the game is pointing this out it feels. Wtf am i doing different? I would find it scummy that he isn't taking a stance on me, and at best it's null yeah because taking a stance is typically better. but so many people keep saying that im different so i suppose it's true. I don't find it necessarily scummy because this difference really isn't scummy for me. Although I guess Bell!scum would be more aware of that. Moving on]

[Definitely agree with the points abt the Murdercat vote area. And I don't know what makes town!Bell so convinced Murder is scum just by the notion of him casing her (without reading the case). That is why I'd like to talk about it]

[lol 2775 was just a gut guess I hadn't actually reviewed any of those thoughts before making it]

[Bell thought Murder was super towny otherwise..? whaaaaat]

[ok that is all]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[I think lack of strong agenda is generally a trait of mine, sure. other than maybe a supportive one which i usually take -- i don't usually case scum, i usually case town and review other people's scumcases]

Ehh, i could see the "it's an general trait of mine" part. From what i remember in that gun game where everyone could dayvig each other. You, while being pretty obvtown, did mostly rely on correctly identifying and allying yourself with town players as your main playstyle. And you were indeed town in that game.

- Norwee

That sentence was a mess, fixed^

[essentially, i was only strong in that game because town was strong! i was much more townreading everyone who wasn't scum than actively scumreading scum yes, and that is generally how i do it]

[It is worth noting that you did correctly identify a part of my scumplay (or at least scumplay i've exhibited a couple times in the past) which is heavy IIoA to make it look like I'm efforting hard. I didn't feel like i was exhibiting that here though..]

[But I guess i will concede that because A.) i'm apparently really different from usual this game and B.) My playstyle isn't terribly high impact to begin with, I guess you probably reached that conclusion without having FL tell ppl to accuse me of it in scum PT. That would have been such a cool read though if it were true lol]

~Morning

[Solstice]

Oh yeah, that’s an real good point for why Bell’s scumread of MC is fake. The "you were towny otherwise" part.
Apparently the case Bell didn’t read completely turned his read 180 on Murdercat and made Bell feel compelled to immediately vote them.

- Norwee

[Bell saying Murder was towny the whole way through is a bit inconsistent with how he feels Murder's read on Noraa is slimy, cause that's been the main thing MC has been doing this whole game]

[Although I guess he could have reevaluated that bit later. Eh, it still doesn't feel like a genuine thought process to me as compared to something being made up on the fly. Town can be inconsistent -- but then again the certainty doesn't seem like it'd match up with the strength of Bell's read if it's just a "screw it" kinda thing.]

[i still want to talk with Bell before becoming confirm biased ;_; I think if Bell is town I could figure it out by talking with him first]

~Morning

[Solstice]

After looking at the closing of D1 and the opening of D2, one of my biggest discoveries:

HOMICDEHYENE is acting very town. This is damn near the same gameplay I experienced with them as town recently.
They are disgustingly over excited and doing the most effort in a way that would make me think scum, but actually isn't.
I see you now kitty.

(Murdercat's Noraa Case Here)

But then they go around and do this, which I don't like.

I'm taking a break from this game, let me know when you guys decide you want to elim scum

The town MC I know doesn't give up like this.
Just food for thought.

Then I see that Double has actually calmed down, could it be true??
The chill pill has been taken??
I don't like the whole pichu situation rn.
The Super Best Friends is just MC, Double and myself, we'll find our fourth eventually.
Off to get some donkey sauce...

[What do you mean by the "pichu situation"? If it's the Bell case, do you find something off about it?]

[I agree with you on the disgusting overly excited or otherwise overly confident point, it mirrors what I've seen from MC!town -- he did this second half of D1 in Death Curse. He'd probably have done it here second half of D1 too had he not waited for Pooky's blessing.]

[i am left a little confused on what your final stance on MC is since you've got points either way. I assume the Super Best Friends are good guys though]

Of course, I was sincere in my posts yesterday.
There's a lot of paperwork involved.
I have my catch, but I need to flesh out the evidence before I can present my findings.

[Oh i'm hype. This D2 has been so fun with all the cases to look over]

~Morning

[Solstice]

Alright Solstice, crisis averted. You’re town so we can go back to go-go-gadget drop kick Bell out from our town.
Nothing to see here guys.

- Norwee

i support this plan

VOTE: Bell

~mist

[Solstice]

i do bad theatre with my scumteam so that people think it's town messing around

am i allowed to call this w/w with ydrasse

~mist

[Solstice]

i do bad theatre with my scumteam so that people think it's town messing around

am i allowed to call this w/w with ydrasse

~mist

yes but no one will believe you

that's probably good because i don't believe myself

~mist

[Solstice]

hey Morning
i have a really confident scumread on Bell
whatdya think

[see 2983 for my reaction. I'm in agreement with misty as well]

[Oh i'm hype. This D2 has been so fun with all the cases to look over]

~Morning

can't tell if this is sarcasm
i could make a null case on someone if you really want one?

[lol no I'm having fun with it]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[Holy shit guys]

[Why]

~Morning

[Solstice]

Like we got Morning Mage publishing entire books in the mafia thread and writing short stories/novellas. And then we have Ydrasse and earlier Noraa that fluffed so hard i started puking rainbows, yet felt like i learned nothing. Then we have Creature that just shits on everyone that's even letting out a light snort. (Exaggerated but the essence of these people)
Why can't we strike an balance between seriousness and humor like perfect moi.

- Norwee

[Morning Mage?!? And this isn't me writing novellas, no sir, i can go longer]

just breathing some life into the game Morning

[maybe but you run the risk of killing it for people who are falling behind]

[Like Bell isn't ghosting, it just seems like an artificially long amount of time has passed cause of the fluffing. I want to have a discussion with him about Murdercatto especially in the event he is town]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[In any case I agree with the positive reads towards Ircher. After actually taking the time to read his posts, i like him much more both in terms of agreeing with a lot of takes and finding them to be genuine looking]

ACTIVE and yet ignoring us here

[If i am going to learn anything from BM, it's that this shouldn't be taken as confirmation he's scum.]

[Yes i do think that Bell is scum but being treated as confscum when you're town will cause you to respond poorly (or at least it does for me) and then it's a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts. Maybe this is pointless caution of me, yes i think it's a good case, but yeah]

[maybe but you run the risk of killing it for people who are falling behind]

[Like Bell isn't ghosting, it just seems like an artificially long amount of time has passed cause of the fluffing. I want to have a discussion with him about Murdercatto especially in the event he is town]

well i hope they get so tired of keeping up they just decide to sheep us on Bell
maybe that's the optimal strat here

[yeah or maybe they don't out of spite and then it's impossible to tell if they're scum]

~Morning

[Solstice]

Maybe we can take this moment to finally solve the game instead of fucking around like some fucking bonobos

can you maybe chill

~mist

[Solstice]

Anyone townreads Ircher here?

MT does

i'm somewhere around null but she's read more than me

~mist

[Solstice]

One thing I want to point out

I think post #2992 in the context of the previous one is slightly >rand scum for dunn and >rand town for double trouble

I feel like FL is slightly more likely to correct double trouble if double trouble is town and dunn is scum, but I'm reading into the WIFOM further than MT is comfortable with

I think the DT being town part is less WIFOMy than the dunn being scum part so I feel stronger on that

~mist

[Solstice]

We could start from a scum!Bell world. Who are their partners?

[Pichu and Ircher I think jump up in odds of being town more than I have em already.]

[Mastina I believe to be town but *technically* she could be scum in the event Creature is town and she had a really good D1 -- like I don't think she is scum but I have never seen mastina scum, either, so perhaps she didn't exit her scumrange but it'd have to be quite big. Eh it's probably more likely that she's town though and Misty thinks so too]

[Dunn and Spiffeh I liked although I think they're they most likely townreads I have that could be wrong. Especially Spiffeh as I think I mostly have just been agreeing with him and i dont have much more evidence. after all there's likely to at least one scum who i'll share opinions with (for example, on Bell v. murder). Dunn I felt was kinda similar to town!Dunn but oo i would need to review]

[so im left with a remaining pool of Creature, DEB, and Toogeloo. Oh and Double because I refuse to give them a read without reading more of their posts (I've probably only seen about 1/3rd of them). If I lost access to every post they ever made and had to go off of feels, I would guess town.]

[This ended up being a general readslist rather than a Bell!scum preflip one. Whatever]

[Forgot though -- Murdercat would be very likely town in that case so there's that. I think he's town anyway of course so i'll just put him in a non pre-flip area on the reads for now]

[Noraabear, Ydrasse]
[Pichu, Ircher, Mastina]
[Murdercat]
-
[Dunn, Spiffeh]
[Dr Easy, Toogeloo, Creature, Double*]
[Bell]

[Noraabear, Ydrasse, Mastina, and Murdercat I think I have read into sufficiently so far, everyone else I could always review more]

[Who do you think was Flavour's first draft pick though? Open question to anyone who has an opinion on that. I feel as if I'm falling into the usual trap of having lower posters (DEB, Toog, Creature) at the bottom. Is Spiffeh a known (or a lesser known) good scum player?]

~Morning

[Solstice]

why would you not use post links Misty

on my home forum you have to manually find the post id instead of just putting the number in and idk which way it works here

~mist

[Solstice]

One thing I want to point out

I think post #2992 in the context of the previous one is slightly >rand scum for dunn and >rand town for double trouble

I feel like FL is slightly more likely to correct double trouble if double trouble is town and dunn is scum, but I'm reading into the WIFOM further than MT is comfortable with

I think the DT being town part is less WIFOMy than the dunn being scum part so I feel stronger on that

~mist

double trouble was entirely joking though
i don't think flavor leaf ever feels threatened there if Dunnstral is scum?

MT agreed on this

i think it's slightly more likely that he felt threatened than that he'd make that correction without that in mind

and i think he thought that the read could at least be genuine on some level so DT is towny from it

idk

~mist

[Solstice]

Hi, everybody not Pichu or double, why are you scum reading me?

[Let's talk abt Murder instead !!]

[Does my 2881 do anything for your read on him? The main thing I'm curious about is your point that he "slow rolled" his read of Noraabear into today's case -- and why you've interpreted his progression on her as scummy rather than just NAI]

[pedit: I BROUIGJT UP PICKS because my PoE was starting to be bad and I wanted to figure who the most likely deepwolf outside of my PoE is scum cause given the nature of the draft system I assume there is one.]

[Like I was considering mastina but it doesnt really feel right]

[pedit again: I'll get there Bell i swear (although I could link to you my take on pichu's case at least)]

~Morning

[Solstice]

Someone explain why Bell hard defends Noraa unless they are scum together
As in, if Bell is scum, how is Noraa town

Bell scum with Noraa town wants me to tunnel there no?

[Why would Bell be more likely to blatantly defend a scumpartner, i would say it's probably less likely by virtue of that. but yeah either way it doesn't really matter because it's the read itself that seems problematic]

Uh, I'm not gunna engage with Pichu's case on me it's the same forest fire shit and I know exactly what I'd say and what he'd say and do in response to every cherry pick, wrong take, pointed out to him etc.

[Yeah, so instead I wanna talk about your Murder read, not really pichu's case as much]

MURDERCAT!
can you vote for Bell please
do you really think the way he's pushed you today when he though you were probtown yesterday is in good faith
you didn't read my case did you

I read it and I just reread it.
I agree that he is misrepping me and the fact he didn't engage with the case is weird.
I don't think I can reconcile that with him being scum and Noraa being town though and I feel better about Noraa scum than Bell scum.
If you can help me there I will consider it.

[Have you read into why your case didn't really do it for me (and mastina)?]

[In any case, I'll hopefully do some Noraabear investigating sometime for you and present more clearly why I think they're town. Because obviously just because i disagree with your case that doesn't automatically make em town]

~Morning

[Solstice]

I simply wanted the game to slow down and readjust and was very sick of the Noraa takes. My read on murdercat is simply conflicted, it serves little purpose for me to town read Murdercat and buddy up to him only to turn around and slap a vote on him day 2 because he voted somebody I didn't like him voting. He slow rolled it, I felt it odd, felt it bad because I was looking at probable town Noraa and seeing somebody push at probable town when we just lost 3 town. That's my actual perspective. you can take it. You can leave it.

[I agree with you that it doesn't serve an obvious scum agenda. The read itself felt inconsistent because your progression was:]

[Highly townread Murder throughout D1, where he consistently rails on Noraabear]
[Murder votes Noraabear and cases them D2]
[You now think Murder is scummy, without even reading the case, so it is simply by virtue of the read on Noraa and nothing new that really popped up]

[that is what seems off about it. Town can be inconsistent, for sure. It just didn't feel like a genuine read and that's the best I can sum it up for you. I am not lockscum on you by any means, of course.]

~Morning

[Solstice]

Yeah i'm pretty certain this is town!Hectic now, don't let anyone tell y'all otherwise.
I don't think scum!them can activate or fake excitement like this when they think they are on to something?

- Norwee

[I was leaning that way, yeah.]

[In a sort of related tangent, I feel Ydrasse confirm biasing Bell as scum looked good for her. I guess you could argue she's scum that knows he's scum so that's why she'd do that, but I dont think so, it felt real to me]

~Morning

[Solstice]

It's a conflict between what he's saying and what he's doing. It really isn't that hard.

[So your issue was with how Murdercatto didn't push Noraa during D1, but did it today. I see. His explanation was that he didn't want to distract from what Pooky was doing. He made it very clear that he hard suspected Noraa but was holding back on it for that reason]

[I guess i dont find it terribly scummy, and certainly not enough to remove an existing townread. I get the idea though, i think. You are saying that he strategically waited until today to push them, because idk as to not waste the BM wagon miselim. Do i understand you right?]

Since Pichu is vouching for Ydrasse and i'll just remind them forever about their failure if Ydrasse is scum i'll townbin them both based on my Pichu read.

this is acceptable

[i want to see it happen, i'd be

rolling

. rolling!]

You were leaning that way?

[Yeah, I haven't seen Hectic like this as scum. But my sample size of hectic being scum is low. I still think it nets town for him and i was leaning town there a bit already.]

i like that you're already assuming Bell will flip scum Morning - this is good
we just need to convince 4 more voters now though
oh and Pooky will have to do his exit interview ofc

[Mmm, well, not exactly. I thought Ydrasse getting confirm biased looks good either way. But in the case that Bell is scum, you could make the argument she knows he flips scum and therefore the confbias is actually TMI -- that's what i meant. i dont think that'd be the case though, i think Ydrasse is town]

~Morning

[Solstice]

(if somebody does a day action I will lose my shit*)

this isn't real paranoia or fear come on
when's the last time you ever saw a day action in a mafia game?

[the game you just modded where Bell got dayvigged..?]

(dayvig exactly in a closed game)

[Ah. gotcha]

[Sure you aren't letting the confirm bias set in just a little?]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[Creature you're very concerned with us throwing today away like we did yesterday, but I don't see what's causing that fear. you just keep saying it over and over without really demonstrating why you actually think town is getting snowed.]

Why would creature scum ever defend Bell here?

[Oh so Creature!scum wouldn't defend a partner but Bell!scum would defend Noraabear only if they're scum.]

[Serious answer: why not? He's chosen to take a bit of a doomsday attitude about it, it's not even really about Bell so much as it's about assuming town leaders are scum.]

[Dunn's pop in does look slightly good if Bell is scum]

You were extra careful when BM softed and wanted to let him live.
Bell claims a strong PR and you didn't even unvote to wait for Pooky until I pushed it.

What are you missing?

[I believe what she's saying is that BM flipped town whereas Bell would be scum here -- so scum!Noraabear being concerned with the town!soft but ignoring the scum!claim is backwards.]

[I get your point that Noraabear doesn't seem to give as much care to Bell as she did BM, but what makes you think that is scum motivated?]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[I like Ircher's readslist lots]

[I think if Bell is scum, they could easily be partnered with Dr Easy, Creature, and Toog (and those players can be scum independent too anyway). Spiffeh and Dunn are my more paranoia-y reads that could be in there.]

[Ydrasse I hard townread but I would sooner drop her than pichu and a bunch of other townreads in the event Bell is scum, as Ircher is right that she is mostly fluff. Which i will admit, she was mostly fluff in Forest Fire (scum game). But I still had strong feelings she was too comfortable early. should review later today after my exam]

[review definitely required because Bell/Creature/Toog/Dr Easy is way too easy a solve -- although maybe more flips are required to find the deeper wolves]

Toogeloo isn't really reading/scumhunting

Guilty!

100 page Day 1s can really take the wind out of your sails. Maybe if people stopped shit posting so much...

[What makes this game different from Death Curse, which had a 165 page day one?]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[I like Ircher's readslist lots]

agree on this one

and it's only mostly because the colors are pretty

~mist

[Solstice]

ircher/someone else who's townreading DEB, can you talk to me about what you like about their D2 posting?

~mist

[Solstice]

UNVOTE: Bell

~mist

[Solstice]

Lolol, you think I'm just gonna out it rn, I'm building a case.

Of course, I was sincere in my posts yesterday.
There's a lot of paperwork involved.
I have my catch, but I need to flesh out the evidence before I can present my findings.

VOTE: DEB

may potentially remove if this ends up going anywhere

because he's done about nothing yet today

on a related note i think ircher having him above null is kinda mmmmm but ill let it go because its barely there

~mist

[Solstice]

[Oh so Creature!scum wouldn't defend a partner but Bell!scum would defend Noraabear only if they're scum.]

This isn't a fair comparison and you are being disingenuous.
If Bell is scum he just fake claimed, I think scum would see if it sticks or if they have to bus.
My point about Bell, once again, is not about the defense itself but the nature of that defense, which seemed emotional.

[I wasn't serious.]

[You worded it like this: "Why would creature scum ever defend Bell here?", so i did not realize your point was related to the nature of the defense rather than the defense itself, though.]

So the reason I wasn't solving was because solving could get me killed.
I don't have that restriction anymore.

I don't crumb. I suck at crumbs.
DBT actually town cased me and argued it was a scum case.
Give me like 4 hours to write this shit. I had a first aid class that got rescheduled.

[oki! This is quite interesting -- so some of the changes in your play were possibly caused by having a PR. I'm excited]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[You worded it like this: "Why would creature scum ever defend Bell here?", so i did not realize your point was related to the nature of the defense rather than the defense itself, though.]

I think Bell's reaction to my case was emotional.
Creature I think is being strategic.
Strategically I don't think that hard defending a partner makes a lot of sense in either case.
I don't think Creature, strategically, defends Bell as a partner there.
I don't think Bell, strategically, defends Noraa as a partner in response to my case.
But Bell might have reacted emotionally if and only if (in my mind) Noraa is a partner.

But I think Bell is quite possibly just town now.

[Misty's getting me thinking about the Bell!town world.]

[I still don't like your Noraa case but I promise I'll do an individual read to try and analyze her sometime. The problem is I think that Noraa became obvscum towards the end of death curse rather than at the start and in the middle. It was really easy for her to coast to endgame in that one. There are parallels you can make (such as how her response to you in both games is kinda weak), but there she *had* to do it whereas here she opts to. And Noraa isn't immune to making bad omgus reads with little reasoning as town. Which is something you noted to mastina at the beginning of the game]

[I get that your point is kinda different from that -- for example, the "quote towers with 'scum' written below them" thing. Although the example you pointed to for that was just Noraabear pointing out a progression that makes you look bad with BM, not an actual case.]

[I think that I would consider Polarbears, Creature, Dunn, Spiffeh (maybe), and Ydrasse more than I already do if Bell is town.]

Official Vote Count 2.5

Polar Bear Express

(2): MURDERCAT, Toogeloo

Creature

: (1) Spiffeh

Bell

(5): Ircher, pichu, Solstice, Ydrasse, mastina

Double the Trouble

(1): Bell

Spiffeh

(1): Creature

Not Voting

(4): Polar Bear Express, Dr Easy Bake, Dunnstral, Double the Trouble
With 14 alive, it takes 8 to execute.[/color]

[Ircher, Pichu, mastina, and Murdercatto are like my hardest townreads at the moment I think.]

[I don't think Hectic fakes an ego push (esp on town) as scum -- I feel pretty decent about that one]

[I like Ircher too much for him to be scum :L okay perhaps that's not good reasoning. I quite like his readslist but I don't think MC is scummy and that's pretty much the only major disagreement I have]

[Mastina I feel is probably just simply town and the way Ircher summarized it in his reads makes me feel even better about that since I am not personally familiar with her meta]

[After reviewing your ISO I feel like your case is genuine. I see why you believe what you believe, and i totally buy that you're not faking it. I just think you're town]

[Dunn's pop in defending Bell looks a little worse to me if Bell is town. Although not much worse because I guess he's just being fair. I want to say Spiffeh sticking to Creature is... slightly better (?) but I havent reread his interactions with Bell wagon yet]

Spoiler: this is what i sent Misty idk if I'll stick to it yet but for later reference

{Bell}
{Pichu, Murdercatto, mastina, Ircher}
-
{Ydrasse, Noraabear}
-
{Spiffeh, Double, Dunnstral}
{Dr Easy, Creature, Toogeloo}

~Morning

[Solstice]

[What makes this game different from Death Curse, which had a 165 page day one?]

Nothing, and if you recall, I stopped reading there too.

I have about an hour of free time during lunch, and then various spots of time in the evenings if I'm not spending time with my wife and kids. 30 pages of posts to sift through that include shit posts and walls of quotes becomes very difficult to maintain that I eventually just go with the flow of the game and worry about reading later when it slows down and I have specific things I want to look for.

I find reading ISOs to be a more productive use of time when I know what it is I am looking for. I don't engage conversations and I certainly don't care about anyone else's conversations, especially once they devolve into shit posts.

[Idk why I thought there was a posting disparity between this game and that one, I reviewed and they're similar. i missed more of your posts this game than i thought]

[I wish pichu and Double wouldn't comment on Bell so much -- I get that he can ignore it but I personally wouldn't be able to ignore them in his shoes. Having Bell freely speak as much as he seems to want to is beneficial to town no matter what his alignment is.]

~Morning

[Solstice]

K, I'm detective.
N1 I investigated Toog who killed no one.
Good job everyone.
Good job.

Hol up y'all, what is the chance that there are two detectives in this game?
With this many players is that possible?
I don't really deal with too much setup spec and my modded games are nuts so I have no reference for tamer games.

The scumstump may also submit two rules the moderators must follow when designing the setup. (Ex: No cops/gunsmiths, All town must be joats). Any broken rules will be rejected.

[FL says "Town must have at least two of the same power role" or just straight up says 2 detectives.]

[i'm a little surprised no one thought of that in response to 3467. Like i doubt it, but stiiiill, it's the first thing that came to mind for me.]

~Morning

[Solstice]

Does scum know town PR’s beforehand?
My read on these claims depend on that information.

- Norwee

[I think only if it's deemed fair. I notice that scum doesn't know the PRs with the example rules given ("All PRs are JoATs","no cops/gunsmiths"). so I think "town must have at least two of the same PR" is an actually plausible rule]

[It could be fair if he only knows one or two town PRs, or maybe if he knows a bunch of strong ones.]

If Detective is as weak as the claim sounds, having two in town with the exact same modifiers doesn't seem implausible. You have to literally catch the killer that night, right?

In fact if you both are claiming the exact same thing on a rather obscure role, it seems more plausible you are both town.

[They have to catch the person on the night of or the night after the kill. But yeah, it's pretty weak.]

[I feel pretty heavily that there's some fuckery going on here because detective is indeed an obscure role. I don't know about them both being town for it yet.. for example, scum!DrEasy CCs detective, Bell gets miselimed, and then gets out of being killed tomorrow with a defense like what i pointed out getting brought up]

~Morning

[Solstice]

Okay, so there are 2 detectives, a vig, a doctor, an informed player. Plus x-masons.
Does that even work.

i don't know what logical sense that would make
it's not even that strong of a role

[Well yea that'd explain why there's two of em]

[pedit: yeah]

[Scum picks out their own roles, and then town is given PRs to balance out the power. And FL also gets to make 2 rules about what town gets]

~Morning

[Solstice]

They have to catch the person on the night of or the night after the kill. But yeah, it's pretty weak.
~Morning

Not so.

A detective can get a guilty on N5 of a scum who made the N1 nightkill and never made a kill after that.

[Oh, that is not how I thought it worked. That is definitely stronger than i thought although still weaker than gunsmith/cop. I guess it's better than tracker though.]

[Like, i feel decent least one being scum so I dunno why I'm tinfoiling. A fakeclaim would also explain why there's two, obviously. But hm]

[If Bell is scum and Easy town, what are the odds he fakeclaims Detective and then there's an actual detective? That just seems like it shouldn't happen.]

[pedit: Obviously Dr Easy was crumbing Detective before town could know that Bell would claim it. So he's not scum that made it up on the spot into a town!Bell. that doesn't even really make much sense cause Bell didn't need the extra help getting eliminated, really.]

[TvT -- They're both town and FL messed with the setup (I don't really see any issue with this) ]
[SvT -- Dr Easy!town counterclaiming Bell!scum who fakeclaims detective (This is the only other scenario that makes Dr Easy town. It seems strangely specific that scum ended up claiming like the one role they didn't know about at this point, and it's also an obscure role like detective. But it's possible i guess) ]
[TvS -- Dr Easy!scum planning on fake claiming detective gets forced to CC a real detective that claims (This strikes me as even less likely than scum!Bell claiming the town PR. How does that even happen?) ]
[SvS -- It's theatre and the weird shit is just explained by scum doing scum things. (No unlikely scenario required here except maybe that they think it's a good idea having Bell claim what Dr Easy is planning on claiming later. Do they think this gives Dr Easy towncredit? Does it?)]

[pedit: You ended it already?]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[What am I missing with regards to the claims?]

[Ignoring any scumreads and just focusing on the claims, they can both be town without issue]
[For Bell!scum and Easy!town, that means scum actually managed to fake claim like the one town PR remaining on accident + it was an obscure one]
[For Bell!town and Easy!scum, that means scum was actually premeditating to claim what just happened to be one of the few PRs town has remaining and it's an obscure one]
[For both to be scum, scum has to think that having Bell claim what Dr Easy is planning on claiming is a good play -- this would lock Dr Easy into giving results for the rest of the game and have to explain why he never gets killed. Is this a good play somehow and I'm just missing it?]

[Should i just assume something unlikely happened and move on?]

~Morning

[Solstice]

this is weird because im starting to like bell :/

oh no
what are you doing
you believe there's two detectives in the game?

[That's easily more likely than scum accidentally claiming the one obscure PR town has left, don't you think? Do you disagree that FL could have caused town to have identical PRs?]

[Am i insane for finding it weird that this scenario is occuring? Is Detective a more common PR than i make it out to be?]

~Morning

[Solstice]

VOTE: Creature

~Morning

[Solstice]

[ohhh the humanity !]

[Unless someone helps me understand the claim probability stuff, i'd rather kill off Creature and see what happens next. I wouldnt do this if i wasn't also persuaded by Bell's AtE, i wont lie. I just think Creature will probably flip scum, and it doesn't have to be related to all this.. strangeness. I suppose I don't buy that this is happening because of an unlikely random chance. But if I'm misinterpreting and it's not as unlikely as i make it out to be, do tell me please]

[pedit: I still feel like the wagon on Bell is town driven and Bell isn't a bad elimination at all. I guess it's possible he has an emotional scumrange + happened to claim the exact PR that draws a CC. Maybe they knew there was a detective so it was intentional to draw them out.....? I can't consider every world so I suppose it's easy I'm missing something. i am just a little taken aback because this isn't the Bell!scum i'm quite as familiar with abrasiveness wise. And TvT requires no special unlikely event happening in my opinion.]

~Morning

[Solstice]

this is weird because im starting to like bell :/

oh no
what are you doing
you believe there's two detectives in the game?

[That's easily more likely than scum accidentally claiming the one obscure PR town has left, don't you think? Do you disagree that FL could have caused town to have identical PRs?]

[Am i insane for finding it weird that this scenario is occuring? Is Detective a more common PR than i make it out to be?]

~Morning

no no no
one scenario is there is one duplicated town role in this game which is unusual on it's own
Bell happens to exactly have that town role
OR Bell fakeclaimed a role which overlaps with the many town roles in this game
it's so much more likely he just got CCed rather than happens to have an unlikely duplicate

what am i missing here?

[FL can influence the setup to make that happen, and if two people have the same role then by definition it's more likely that this scenario would occur. Also if there's a duplicated role, it makes sense that it's not a vig or a doctor but a weakish investigative]

[If Bell is scum fakeclaiming, he claimed like the ONE wrong role he possibly could have, virtually the only one that would get CCed. Or at least close to one. And it's an obscure role like Detective, not a Cop/Tracker/Watcher etc]

[I guess TvT still has to have FL making that rule happen, which is my own speculation and not guaranteed.]

[I still don't understand how no one finds it odd that Bell claimed like the only role that could have been counter-claimed + it's obscure. How did that happen?]

~Morning

[Solstice]

want do you mean it's the only role that could have been counter claimed?
flavor leaf can influence the setup but we don't know how he did
i don't understand what you're saying

[Masons, doctor, vig, informed are already on the table. There are only so many power roles that can remain]

[Bell managed to claim one of the only roles in that small pool of unclaimed roles that are still left. But not only did he do that, it's a role like Detective -- not something like a Cop. That is what I find strangely unlikely]

[If there are two detectives in that final pool, then it suddenly would make sense.]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[Bell do you really think it's more likely Hectic fakes an egopush as scum on you rather than is just wrong town?]

[And everyone's gonna make fun of me for this if Bell flips scum, but i

really

don't see what the rush is/was when Bell seems to have the desire to create content for us. That's good if he's scum or town. So like ???]

[Oh congrats on the job by the way Bell!]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[Why do you bother to mention mason reads at all, Bell?]

[Another question I was wondering is if you crumbed your role at any point, but I assume you didn't cause i dont see it being brought up anywhere. And it is abundantly clear that Dr Easy was always going to claim Detective. So I suppose conventional wisdom would suggest that you got unlucky and claimed an existing town PR, and not that FL masterminded this situation]

[Although i suppose this is lucky, in a way, because you were probably going to die regardless of the claim, so this is useful to scum. So maybe you knew there was a detective and intentionally did this, and that's what explains the unlikeliness]

[Weird that you would keep on playing so much if your purpose was to suicide bomb a town PR, though]

[Oh well. I'll just sit on top of Creature as you go (´ω｀*) ]

[pedit: still interested in solving, btw? Or are you laying down now. If you're still interested in solving, a (possibly) final readslist would be neat. Just in case]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[Yea which has like at least a coin flip's chance of happening]

[So maybe just a rapid fire townblock list or "scum inside here" list off the top of yer head]

~Morning

[Solstice]

Morning we don't know how many masons there are
a 17 player game probably has like 7 town PRs
so let's say there's 2 masons + 1 doc + 1 vig
that's still room for 3 other town PRs
Bell happened to claim one of them - it's not THAT unlikely

[Yeah it's perfectly reasonable that I just misinterpret setup balance anyway. I figured ~2 masons + doc + vig + informed would leave room for maybe 2 other roles. I guess it could be 3. And I thought Detective is a role that barely ever appears ? which I still do because I've seen it once ever. But maybe I just happen to have not seen the games where there are detectives]

Bell openly hypothesizing about Ydrasse and i being masons is so so scummy and anti town
he only does this as scum thinking he'll get town points for the boldness

[Yeah that makes no sense to me really, the only possibly town spin i can think of is maybe he's trying to explain why his read on you looks odd or something. Don't really get the point]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[Yea which has like at least a coin flip's chance of happening]

[So maybe just a rapid fire townblock list or "scum inside here" list off the top of yer head]

~Morning

Why would you doom me like this.

[don't you think it'd be good for us to know where your strongest opinions are in the event you get hammered? Your safety isn't really a priority, is it?]

~Morning

[Solstice]

No because I'd rather just do the full thing and crush Flavor's dreams or completely humiliate myself post work than just, shove out a bunch of half-assed work. I can do it. But what will it help will you listen? Will you be convinced?

[I totally understand that cuz i'm the same way a lot of the time -- i don't like to give out reads on players i haven't bothered to read much of]

[I can't really say if i'd be convinced or not because i haven't seen it (・ω<) but I guarantee I would give whatever your solve is my full consideration]

I said I'd solve on my own the next 7 days.

[i am that patient. I really don't care if scum!Bell wastes our time for 7 days provided he's giving updates as he goes. dunno if anyone else agrees though because the case against you is pretty persuasive.]

~Morning

[Solstice]

By definition I hope it isn't. I never really challenged it for my brain's well being.

[Are you talking about pichu's case being persuasive or are you talking about the likelihood of 2 detectives?]

By definition I hope it isn't. I never really challenged it for my brain's well being.

It's more likely for a mod to include two of the same role in the game than it is for someone to fakeclaim an uncommon role and have it show up in the game elsewhere

[pedit: HOLY SHIT at least one other person in the game sees it the way I do.]

[I'm not in "very likely town" territory though. You're not scum are you Dunn? cause that'd just be embarrassing at this point]

[pedit2: Oh I guess if you had a history of townreading Bell that makes it less weird]

[pedit3: Also I forgot Toog has the same stand point]

~Morning

[Solstice]

Like if you want I can go do that instead but I really did mean I'd rather not and just try to salvage.

[Na i don't really want that]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[i also accept that I'm being silly in the event you're scum, but only to an extent, because i see no drawbacks to waiting at least 1-2 days to see if you actually start to deliver on solving. I still have stuff i'd like to read, could always review more. And if Bell is trolling us it'll be evident by how he doesn't solve]

~Morning

[Solstice]

howdy

i haven't caught up but i have been tl;dr'd by MT

i'm thinking we don't kill either of the claims and force them to get info for us

even under the assumption that one of them is town and the other is scum that means we have 3 other scum to find

~mist

[Solstice]

[Is there a point you're trying to make with that quote tower, Bell?]

[pedit: Oh good we're still in business then!]

~Morning

[Solstice]

Fine
UNVOTE:
if someone else voted you right after I unvoted I would be surprise and if I'm reading the gamestate correctly thats not gonna happen anyways

[thank you Ali]

pichu r u still sure about bell

i am worried

i dont think he can ate this much as scum

by this much i mean he cant ate for shit as scum :/

[Yeah it's very surprising to me for Bell!scum]

[I am willing to defer to more experienced players regarding the unlikeliness of there being two of the same role. And if there aren't two detectives, it'd be just a really pointless move for scum!DEB to CC town!Bell there.]

[But regardless I still want to hear everything Bell puts out]

~Morning

[Solstice]

also if there are two detectives in a game just Why

[flavour leaf, probably]

I don't disagree that Creature is scum here. On the flip side, Creature is a slot that's almost guaranteed to be gone before LimLo, so I don't see any particular need to rush getting rid of that slot. I also think we should resolve Bell v. DEB as soon as we can, so I think limming within the two is the better move.

[That is a fair point. it would suck if town!Creature makes it near Xylo but i doubt that ever happens]

Ah yes, you are confident that the case you decided not to read or engage with whatsoever is easy to pick apart.

[Sigh yeah guess that doesn't really make sense either]

(Side Note: I keep saying the WIM abbreviation, but I don't know what it means or stands for.)

[WIM = Want It More. So like trying really hard, posting a bunch, trying to outdo everyone else]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[Think you'll have a solve by tomorrow, Bell? seems patience is starting to run a little thin]

[don't really see why you don't give at least some reads right now (like i wanted yesterday) if you're town here. Maybe you can make Flavour cry with a partial solve]

~Morning

[Solstice]

Bell if ur town just give me a reads list
please

No. My terms are you let me think or I give you toilet paper. My WIM as town is high.

[

what are you thinking about exactly

]

~Morning

[Solstice]

bell what happened

you were supposed to be so spritely and fun

When was I ever that.

That's exclusive for games when I'm widely townread and loved.

[same though]

~Morning

[Solstice]

I looked through the mininormal list btw.
The closest I found was Mason, mason, town back up mason.

[It's almost like that's how mason works. is the joke flying over my head? dammit]

[in any case, I thought that you thought Dr Easy was scum, so why is this important exactly?]

[and yeah I've read the past few pages.... Bell, how do you even write this stuff as town. Are you still flustered? I would have thought that would have gone away by now.]

[I have never seen town fake-react to a fake hammer, just seen scum fake-react a small handful of times. So is this a first for me, orrr]

~Morning

[Solstice]

Can you link some Bell scumgames for me?

i played with bell in antechamber and epilogue and both times he was very uncomfortable and low effort as scum.

So you think this is scum indicative for him? Yeah, I think that kind of fits with what we’re seeing here.

[That doesn't fit with what we're seeing here, what??]

[Eh. Awkward yeah, low effort no. He's going through the motions of bringing up how BM/NK15 interactions are really important to his solve and has also vowed to high effort for the next 6 days. I don't really know what the point for him to do that as scum is since he's very clearly dead here.]

[although he hasn't delivered on much of the solve -- that's why I keep harping on him for reads. At first I was more understanding cause I hate giving reads on players I haven't evaluated.]

[...but i can do it. very easily as town. Cause i know i can change em later and it's whatever. I take way more time as scum cause my thought process just isn't as deeply ingrained into my mind, im too busy worrying about other stuff, i care about how it comes off etc etc etc. Bell repeatedly refusing to give us his toilet paper reads becomes less and less believable every time he says it]

[I have never seen town fake-react to a fake hammer, just seen scum fake-react a small handful of times. So is this a first for me, orrr]

why should town be fake-reacting to a fake hammer in the first place?

[I have no clue. Technically you could justify it because it in theory gives you greater chances of living if it's bought, and living is good for townies too. In practice, that's a terrible idea because you're lying and generally people are trying to find liars, so when you do a fake reaction to a hammer, it tends to make you look worse.]

[Bell then shortly after clarifying he wouldn't fake react to a hammer he knows is fake, despite that being what he literally just did, is just.. alright then...]

[I can technically see a townie justifying a desperate play like that in their mind, sure. Subsequently admitting they would never do that like they're going through some kind of cognitive dissonance.... okay. there's a certain point where town!Bell can't really blame us.]

[Idk. Overall this is a lot different from what I expected from scum!Bell. But that can maybe be explained by him trying something new, something flaily and all over the place with a bunch of emotions. something that is sure to get me at least]

[I am pretty much basing my read (at this point) off of Bell's behaviour knowing he's going to die -- since there is no scum motivation to solve when he knows it doesn't save his life -- and what does he do? he doesn't even give readsssss. Oh Bell... why must you do this?]

~Morning

[Solstice]

@Solstice: you really need to start using that razor occam gave you
if it looks like scum thinks like scum and acts like scum - it's just scum and not town making REALLY weird plays

[Yea i'm fine with that]

[Bell I feel like if you were town, you wouldn't be holding your solve so close to the chest. if you were town, it'd be pretty easy to give us something, anything you have an opinion on]

[Pedit: I'm not townreading Bell no. I am wary of the Detective v. Detective thing, and the emotion and etcetera is a new look for scum!Bell that i've seen. But i wouldn't say he's townie outside of being out of his scum meta]

[I wanted him to keep spewing information before he dies, which would be useful to him if he's town and useful to us no matter what his alignment is -- although I'm not sure he's going to deliver on that solve]

~Morning

[Solstice]

Noraa, when you're town. Can you even focus when people are calling you scum all the time.

This hit deep in my frozen heart.
pain.
I dont know what to think anymore.
Pichu assure me that ur right and I will follow u forever and ever.

-nornor

[Hasn't he already done that, possibly multiple times?]

[Oh btw to comment on the claims for the millionth time, I don't really see what the point is for DrEasy!scum to CC town!Bell is? Correct me if i'm wrong, but was that really necessary? There's also the unlikeliness that DrEasy was crumbing the exact same role town!Bell happened to have -- although you could say that DrEasy's crumb could apply to a few other investigative roles actually. Hmm]

~Morning

[Solstice]

Another way to think of it, if DEB is scum, what would FL try to get out of it. Would he trade DEB who hasn't done a lot for a D2 miselim on a town PR to basically control the game for today and possibly tomorrow?
I think this is possible enough that an elim on Bell isn't optimal.
I also don't like that DEB completely dipped from the thread.

[Yeah, so my thinking is that this isn't really possible enough to justify sparing Bell]

[In my mind, Dr Easy is likely town and the situation where Bell is town is if it's TvT with a sabotaged setup. and SvS is probably still more likely than Bell!town Dr!scum so Bell remains a fine pick anyway]

[i am conceding that the sabotaged setup requires that specific choice from FL to happen, combined with Bell's really strange behaviour as a town to also happen. So it's not as likely as i thought]

~Morning

[Solstice]

although you could say that DrEasy's crumb could apply to a few other investigative roles actually

I would argue that scum probably knows town roles by rule in that scenario

[Why does he crumb one of the roles he knows town has, then? Isn't that like begging to be killed if he got put up on stand before the real one?]

You are giving DEB a lot of credit for his nothing post while criticizing me about fluff the whole game. He hasn't posted meaningfully since claiming.

I have not criticized you for fluff. I have criticized you for lacking a sense of direction and initiative this game.

Anyway, you are to some extent right that DEB's last post was fluff. But honestly, I think it's understandable when you account for 1) DEB's general playstyle and 2) the fact that Bell is pretty much conf!scum from DEB's pov. Would it be great if DEB offered insight elsewhere? Yes, of course it would. Do I expect that from the slot in this situation? No, not really.

[Yeah DEB is pretty consistent with what he was doing. i dont think there's any reason to believe he's shifted to a "laying low" style as a result of the claim business, and even then i dont really see why less posting now would be more likely to make him scum]

Yes, you've probably killed detective Bell and made your win con impossible unless you're scum.
Well done.

why does a detective dying fuck up our wincon?
Best case scenario if you are town is the DEB is also town so we still have a detective anyways.
Worst case scenario if you are town is that DEB is scum and we figure that out sometime down the line.

[Switch those two scenarios -- this is probably game-losing if it's TvT. Maybe that's a good argument for there not being 2 detectives, though. Perhaps it's too strong for scum since I guess conventional wisdom is that PRs aren't duplicated]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[and yeah I've read the past few pages.... Bell, how do you even write this stuff as town. Are you still flustered? I would have thought that would have gone away by now.]

[I have never seen town fake-react to a fake hammer, just seen scum fake-react a small handful of times. So is this a first for me, orrr]

finish the sentence

-nornor

["--is this just another one of those times?"]

I hate the # of times Norwee/Ali has jumped on and off this wagon. It looks so damn scummy.

-nornor

[why's that?]

[Why does he crumb one of the roles he knows town has, then? Isn't that like begging to be killed if he got put up on stand before the real one?]

I don't know, but I do find it weird that the crumb came after Bell started getting pressure and not until page 119.
Maybe they are just both scum, that helps me make sense of a lot of things actually.

[I find that more likely than Bell!town Easy!scum by a long shot]

[Although that would still beg the question of why they think that's a good play. Oh, and did the crumbs really start that late? That could be interesting..]

~Morning

[Solstice]

The scumstump may also submit two rules the moderators must follow when designing the setup. (Ex: No cops/gunsmiths, All town must be joats). Any broken rules will be rejected.

Ok... This is why people think scum know town's PRs? But it's still just an assumption. Their rules could be literally anything non-game breaking.

[I lean that scum knowing all of the PRs is too powerful. Although i guess technically FL could set one of scum's roles to "Informed Goon -- Knows All Town PRs", i bet that would get rejected]

[So no, I instead think it's possible that FL set a rule like "Town has two of the same PR". I don't really think scum knows which PRs we have. And even if they do, it doesnt really make sense to crumb the exact same role as one of those PRs, does it?]

[So we are in a world where there are 2 town detectives and it's cause scum wanted there to be a duplicate PR -- or Bell is just scum that got particularly unlucky/lucky with his claim. It's also possible they're both scum and their motives are beyond our comprehension. Really it just makes sense to kill Bell cause he's scummy and I can't think of everything anyway. I wrestle a lot with how weird this situation is but like ¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

~Morning

[Solstice]

I think they are scum together. FL sensed Bell was going down and tried to get some town cred for DEB out of it.
When DEB doesn't die, you have another scum say "why kill DEB he's useless, detective isn't that strong."
Mechwise, that is the simplest explanation to me.

[Yeah that's possible. to me, that feels a little too risky for the relatively kinda low benefit it gives, but it would clear up some unlikelihoods and does fit with the late crumbs/claims]

Readwise, I still think that Bell is AtEing super hard and I'm hesitant to SR him. Maybe he cares more after being drafted? Maybe he is doing better with coaching? I've never played with Bell scum so I don't know how far this is off his baseline.

[yeah that's why i was leaning so hard into the TvT tinfoiling. There is a very strange Bell playing game. maybe caused by something related to his team, yeah. And someone, think it was BM maybe? Made a big deal out of metas potentially being shifted as a result of FL coaching. So who knows]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[those takes are a tad outdated cause I dont think Bell has given us anything that could really qualify as content since then]

[A DAMN SHAME TOO]

[pedit: Pooky is about to blow our fucking minds]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[What was the point of having scum CC Bell, though? What do they gain from that? That is what i struggle with.]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[What was the point of having scum CC Bell, though? What do they gain from that? That is what i struggle with.]

~Morning

it's the extra little push that gets bell over the hump, and also after bell flips green DEB can always play the 2-detectives angle - the wifom trap is specifically "why would I counter-claim a dead man?"

I think their goal was to just hardpush bell through there and demoralize the town, which would imply people on the higher end of the influence pool are scum.

I think specifically Spiff. His reaction did not feel like a real reaction to me.

[I guess it's a WIFOM trap, sure though. It seems like a really bad play. Would they really expect to survive it? Idk, I guess, at worst, they lose DEB and trade him for a detective. Which is pretty convenient when DEB was probably the lowest scum on people's lists. And it does explain the unlikeliness of the double detectives]

[I was falsely assuming DEB crumbed a lot earlier than he did. And there's no astronomically unlikely "DEB accidentally crumbed the role Bell happened to be" problem if a rolecop is involved. So that definitely has merit as a potential explanation i suppose yeah. more thinking required]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[Ok so Dr Easy did the crumbs on D2 when Bell had 3 votes, right after pichu dropped his big case. That is still some amount of foresight, as Creature had more votes at the time, but you could make a decent guess Bell would be put on stand either D2 or D3 from that, sure.]

[In your explanation Pooky, it is somewhat unlikely that the exact townie who gets targetted for elimination today is who scum had rolecopped. But maybe that's what made it irresistible lol]

[pedit: EXACTLY]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[we should]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[we should]

~Morning

why over Bell?

[I am pretty sick of thinking about Bell v Dr Easy at this point and will hammer Bell in the near future if he doesn't give me his toilet paper solve]

[but now i gotta think about Pooky's theory and blllaehhehhhhhhh]

~Morning

[Solstice]

Maybe today we just need to get rid of the people that are gonna play against town wincon and by that I mean Murder who has singlehandedly started literally almost all of Bell's cws. Are you that desperate to save ur buddy? It's so damn out there that I'm like holy fuck would he actually pull such an insane WK on a buddy?!

[what are you even talking about Noraa]

[Murder hasn't done that a single time]

[And even then that doesn't justify voting for Murder before the player you think is confirmed scum]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[Understood, Bell]

VOTE: Bell

~Morning

[Solstice]

[Idk, but if I were to take a guess, Murder's at 1 vote]

[so]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[what are you even talking about Noraa]

[Murder hasn't done that a single time]

[And even then that doesn't justify voting for Murder before the player you think is confirmed scum]

~Morning

Do you see why I SR this now?

[Noraa can live in alternate universes as town too. Especially when we're talking OMGUS.]

[But yes, I understand -- her responses to you have been pretty consistent with this]

[Bell has more votes than i thought hold on]

UNVOTE:

~Morning

[Solstice]

[If Bell is done "solving", there's no reason for me to continue waiting. so I think he's finally letting go.]

[Bell (5): Ircher, pichu, Ydrasse, mastina, Dr Easy Bake]

VOTE: Bell

[For real this time -- that's X-2 by my count. I didn't want to let it end immediately in case Pooky *really* opposes but i don't think we can go wrong here with Bell saying he's done.]

~Morning

[Solstice]

Spoiler:

Yeah, and not in a natural way for a townie. So. Why is your vote elsewhere?

Weird post

Whelp Noraa's town.
That wasn't hard tho.

15 to go.

TR on Bell

I don't agree, I don't think that post makes sense timing-wise if he already thought noraa was town from draft reasons

I believe scum would not start the game TRing town Noraa

it's not like we're masons or anything ha ha

???

I'm your buddy Toog

~Morning

Hi Morning, I don't think we've played a real game together other than the marathon but I'm looking forward to it! Is the [] bracket thing something I should understand?

Murder, did you draw scum? What makes you think this is obviously town!Noraa? Why does townreading Noraa rn equate to being town?

I think there is a perception that Noraa is a strong scum player, but I don't think scum Noraa would do well in this setup. I don't think Flavor took such an obvious pick, especially considering Noraa tends to not do well under pressure. Noraa is also lim bait despite her claims, and this is a pretty strong plist so there's not a lot of easy miselims, another reason FL wouldn't pick there. Also I think mastina is scummy for 25 and I expect scum to use Noraa as a place to park votes on D1. It is possible that Bell scum is being specifically coached to pocket Noraa, but I would think that scum would be a bit more subtle about it. There's also other reasons to TR Bell, like he doesn't really like playing scum.

Is it possible to express an dislike on your own wagon without sounding defensive? I think it’s just obvious that me and Alisae are the type of players that start off hard to read but eventually become super obvtown or super obvscum the longer we are in the game. So Pichu and Noraa, if town. Should really consider this. Tbh Pichu always tunnels me D1 as far as i know so i don’t find their push scum indicative. But Noraa is kinda fluffy and annoying so i’d rather they calm down and just give some calm reads and stop this dumb tunneling.

- Norwee

Lol this is such a bad post

Why Mudercat?

Why are you so concerned about votes on you? If you are town just find the scum

Oh gee, thanks.

There's like 3 votes on you?

Yo where my man Battle Mage at, he knows his shit.
Call out to mah boiiiii.

- Norwee

I'm here buddy. 28 pages on the weekend I'm VLA.

shiiiiiiit

I'm town anyway, I guess Pooky wasn't given the opportunity to pick me.

Team FL go go go!

Have you been reading?

For instance, these posts look terrible since they're explicitly OMGUS+reverse-OMGUS (townreading a player townreading your slot + scumreading players scumreading your slot), and it no longer flows as well.
I could see the plausible callout of Ircher/MURDERCAT/Double.
The transition I cannot see.

I thought you have played with Noraa before?

So I am here and caught up. There is a ton of noise still. I'm gunna like, not really share my reads? I kind of feel like Pooky should be leading more?
If any of you want anything from me let me know.

Why not Ircher? Why Bell?

Solstice too actually

Norwee is scum but ali seems town

I'm gunna keep sheeping Cobra

Noraa SRing Ircher because Ircher said she is a strong town player is 10/10
And honestly I'm here for it because I think that was a weak buddy attempt.
Noraa you might actually be on this game.

I'm not sure what makes people BoP me
I am playing my town game which is to mostly do nothing as long as the game is moving forward or until I think I have enough info to solve.

Actually I agree with Ali, I think you have to lead as scum.
I am more likely to hang back as town unless people make me do stuff or the game is dead or I actually have a solve.

I'm not sure about any of your other scum reads but I could see Dunn/Ircher.

can someone give me a heads up if i get to -1 so i can claim? lol

ugh why do this

so after consulting for a long time with my ace team of mason friends we have come up with this POE-4;

we will eliminate someone from this list today:

Double Trouble
Ircher
Battle Mage
Dunnstral

Pls don't put anyone within 2 votes of being elim'd I'd like to do some final heart-heart talk with the victim first thanks!

btw I am very happy with how the POE-4 is going - you guys are all doing a great job

if you aren't voting for someone in the POE-4 you should do so and have a reason preferably.

every1 already voting in the POE-4 pls give me your top SR and top TR in the POE-4 with reasons thanks.

DT
BM
Dunn
Ircher

I think. Ali isn't hyperposting and controlling stuff, Ircher has weird reads.

Toog what do you make of BM softing then?

MURDERCAT is near the top of the charts for slots active lurking in a scum-indicative way.

No I'm town

Open his iso and ctrl f my name
The progression on me is forced and fake

So, yes: I am going out on a limb here and saying Ircher is probably town here now.

Lame, this is easy town points

I'm getting shivers from 1845

VOTE: Polar Bear Express

Quoted some of Murder's posts this game. I think I needa do some meta diving. The vibe is really off. like really off.

-nornor

[It's like you're trolling Murder at this point -- the quotes with no further explanation other than "scummy" -- oh my god that is funny]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[One of Murder's reasons for scumreading you is that in Death Curse you would quote a bunch of stuff he says then put "Scummy" underneath it]

[im sorry, you still doing it even after we talk about it repeatedly is just really funny to me for some reason]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[I don't think you're scum no but it's like you're doing everything in your power to make Murder scumread you. that's what i mean]

~Morning

[Solstice]

The group decides they have the leaf problem under control. After one of the leaves was stopped, the group decided that Flavor Leaf would turn over a new leaf and let suburbia be a beary good place to live.

Unfortunately, Flavor Leaf did not turn over a new leaf. When the group gathered (some hungover), pichu was missing. The group followed back to their house. pichu was dead. His corpse bled over some notes. His house was a hectic scene. It was near impossible to move through the various strings connecting posterboards full of conspiracy theories. Someone knocked one down and the rest fell like dominoes. In the wreckage, someone found a tape recorder. It only contained pichu's voice on repeat. Their voice was tense and frazzled. "Gotta catch 'em all".

Spoiler: pichu - Town Strong-willed Simple Disloyal Vanilla Cop

Welcome, pichu, to

PookyTheMagicalBear v Flavor Leaf

!

You are a

Strong-willed Simple Disloyal Vanilla Cop

, aligned with PookyTheMagicalBear.

Active Abilities

:

Where applicable, you may use

one

of the following each night.

• You may check to see if a player is vanilla each night.

Passive Abilities

:

• Your ability bypasses any and all roleblocks.
  
• Your ability only works on players who are goons or vanillas.
  
• This action will be prevented if used on a player who belongs to the same faction as you. Your "Strong-willed" passive will not enable you to target players of the same faction.

You win if Flavor Leaf's evil leaves (the mafia) are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Another Day starts now. Day 3 will end in (expired on 2020-12-20 21:25:00).

~mist

[Solstice]

I spent some time during the night going over spew from Bell

I think the way he talked to Dunn was very much not partnered, and think Ircher also looks pretty good off of interactions

~mist

[Solstice]

[fiiiine]

~Morning

[Solstice]

ircher, where would ydrasse go in that list?

~mist

[Solstice]

Here is the order
Spiffeh - Claims VT
Dunnstral - claimed vt
Polar Bears - claimed vt
Pichu - flipped cop
mastina
Ircher - claimed vt
Ydrasse
Solstice
Toogeloo
DEB

this is all correct yes

~mist

[Solstice]

claiming supersaint enabler

{Pichu, MURDERCAT, Dunn}
{DEB, Ircher}
{mastina, Polar Bear Express}
{DtT, Ydrasse, Creature}
{Spiffeh, Toog}

this was me and MT's last solve during N2, obviously dtt and creature go to the top

~mist

[Solstice]

Who's turn it is now?

toog and DEB, both of whom have already claimed

~mist

[Solstice]

Because myself and Polar Bears seem to be some of your most desired targets and I'm town and Polar Bears is the most obvtown player in the game

Toogeloo, Ydrasse, maybe Dunn?

Are where I'd look next for scum

vt!

town: mastina (with an asterisk to think about if she's still around endgame and we're struggling to find mafia), solstice, ircher, deb barring any role shenanigans

scum: polar bear express,

toogeloo, spiffeh, maybe dunnstral

[I find it funny these two's lists are inverses of each other, even up to both having Dunn as a "maybe". It's probably not important but i still thought it interesting]

[Anyway here's what i was curious about]

Spoiler: Ydrasse on Polarbear

oh no... oh no no no polar bear express no.... what are you doing sweetie......

i'm just going to pretend i don't see these posts... *smiles sweetly*

vt!

town: mastina (with an asterisk to think about if she's still around endgame and we're struggling to find mafia), solstice, ircher, deb barring any role shenanigans

scum: polar bear express, toogeloo, spiffeh, maybe dunnstral

[

@Ydrasse

, what exactly did you find scummy about Polarbears?]

~Morning

[Solstice]

What is seriously wrong with you? Why the hell shouldn’t I care about that?

[...cause what's done has already been done? It's a waste of time to call it a bad decision and debate about it right now. Ali even said e thought it would have been better to trickle claims but e didn't think of that]

~Morning

[Solstice]

mastina, i'll give you ONE MORE CHANCE to push on someone... if it flips town we will be having a stern talk...........

i was willing to accept this as creature's town play earlier bc it was my only experience with him but like. yeah.

VOTE: creature

my engagement with this game has been shoddy and mostly based around league (i got plat 1 in tft today so like, diamond soon) but this feels right

(Ydrasse switches to death tunneling Bell after Pichu drops the case)

-

(Spiffeh sticks to his guns on Creature even through all of the Bell business)

If Creature's town I will reevaluate

I think Creature has a phenomenal shot at flipping scum

If you disagree than you can explain why, but I'm not going to let go of one of the few scum reads I feel decently about on the off chance that they could be a mason (which I doubt btw)

[Spiffeh actually comes out looking better than Ydrasse with the revelation of Creature being a mason IMO. Ydrasse's positioning on Creature/mastina in 2891 is actually sort of concerning since she's placing the burden of the read on mastina and none on herself since she includes originally thinking Creature is town]

[Ydrasse resigning herself to just hard bus her buddy all day is kind of surprising (see her pointing that out herself) but i can't imagine it would have been terribly difficult. Ydrasse doesn't have to do anything other than defer to pichu all day and play under the guise of "Holding town hostage to kill this person get him get him get him"]

[Ydrasse never really commented or did any analysis on pichu's case that i know of, and yet she was pretty confident in it at most times.. I considered scum!TMI and decided against it earlier, but now I am less sure.]

does ircher actually think im scum if he doesnt have me in his reads list ..............

[Same deal as the "Oh no Polarbear ........" posts -- sort of feels like you're trying to incite suspicion on people without really committing much]

[side note, if Ydrasse is scum, that officially means she is fantastic at pocketing Hectic]

~Morning

[Solstice]

I hadn’t actually considered the possibility that she could have possibly been pocketing Hectic with that. I just really hard tr that AtE. I haven’t seen Ydrasse fake AtE as scum as scum before, so I honestly wouldn’t know. She just seemed so upset but it’s possible it could have been faked.

@Pooky what do you think? Is this in Ydrasse’s scumrange or not?

[Ydrasse was upset? when?]

I trust Hectic to be right about Ydrasse

[That's fair enough though]

~Morning

[Solstice]

Ydrasse was v upset hectic died

would she kill him and then cry over the coffin like a grieving widow? I don't think so ~.~

[OH THAT]

[I thought it was really jokey. If Ydrasses' scumteam killed Hectic, I think she'd be practically obligated to do that bit. It's not like it was her choice to kill him]

[also I thought it was sort of weird that she harped on what a bad decision by scum it was to kill him]

~Morning

[Solstice]

I just think that Soltice got it right and I just hope we don’t lose because you got overconfident, because that’s exactly what happened to me in Trust Fall. I’m really surprised that he didn’t mention that game to you, because I’m assuming you all discussed that with him first right?

[My opinion on the subject was "This is a waste of time to talk about", not much more than that. This is all irrelevant when we'll be killing off scum shortly]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[I thought it was really jokey. If Ydrasses' scumteam killed Hectic, I think she'd be practically obligated to do that bit. It's not like it was her choice to kill him]

you mean she wasn't really shaking ?!

[this?]

me too... im literally shaking and crying rn you dont get it, im heartbroken to lose my rock, my anchor, my soulmason this game, we bonded so much, im in agony, theres a hole ripped inside of me where my heart is and the mafia stole it from me and i think they're eating it in a ritual or something i have to hope theyre using it well but really i am just so numb rn i cant even explain it why did this happen to me why why why why why why why

[I'm lost as to whether or not you're kidding. is there a joke currently soaring over my head rn?]

[I'm legitimately confused now, are you both considering this AtE or are you messing with me]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[Oh. It was hard to explain why I don't think Ydrasse's reaction is meant to be taken seriously but i think i know why now -- "I'm literally shaking and crying rn" is a meme -- if you're seeing it differently from how I do, that's probably why]

~Morning

[Solstice]

oh

I didn't know that was a meme

I've actually had someone react that way to me dying in a game.

[That would explain it then !]

[In any case I dont think scum!Ydrasse had any hand in who got killed anyway. and if I were scum in Ydrasses' shoes, I'd feel obligated to cry over Hectic after how important he was to her play]

After Hectic was flipped, so I wanted to know if that was out of her scumrange. It’s interesting to me that she isn’t trusting Hectic’s read on us however. Hectic’s only concern was me not posting enough, iirc.

[I'm of the opinion that those posts would have been fairly easy to do as there isn't much actual emotion involved regardless of alignment. The joke was that she was over-exaggerating how upset she was. You don't have to be careful about it looking faked if you intentionally make it really over-the-top.]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[Misty and I think that Ircher, Dunn, Mastina, and Polarbears are town atm. DEB could be town i just dunno yet]

[I've been reading through Spiffy and I do wonder about that section where he mixes up Bell's claim as a tracker, then advocates for killing Bell being bad, then realizes he misread, but still prefers Creature overall cause his read there is so strong. i lean that it's real. i also like how he just wanted to get Bell and DEB both killed after a certain point lol. He looks way better than Ydrasse when it comes to how they positioned on Creature]

[Toog advocated for sparing DEB/Bell, which of course I don't think is inherently bad, but it was still something scum wants. I am really unsure if their scumreads on mastina/Polarbears are real and although they always tried to vote for those two over the main wagon, they never really showed me why they thought those two are scum, to be honest ?? They have the "active lurker" theory on mastina but it hasn't really been doing it for me. They noted their early Noraa vote was substanceless but the scumread persists all game. The only mention of something Polarbear did that they feel is scummy is here where they don't really explain why. They proceed to vote Polarbear over and over again then mastina later but I just don't know why]

[Dr Easy being scum clears up how fucky yesterday's claims were and why his crumb was so late. Might be wrong, I don't know yet]

[Ydrasse I'm mostly wrestling with whether or not she'd be willing to hard bus, normally i'd say no but this game feels special. I am curious about her scumpool, as it is probably the first time in the entire game she can't do the "im powersheeping pichu" bit with her reads]

[if I had to input a guess at this moment I might make it Toog/Ydrasse/Dr Easy]

~Morning

[Solstice]

I don’t understand this. If you think Ydrasse might be scum, then why wouldn’t she have played a role in who got killed?

[I am pretty sure FL is doing the majority of the shot-calling. And if the scumteam decided that Pichu needed to die (so maybe a PR or mason read + his hard bus on Bell), then even if Ydrasse didn't want that to happen, it wouldn't matter if they had good enough reasons. and I imagine FL is pretty deliberate with his kills]

~Morning

[Solstice]

A Super Saint is a Vengeful Townie who only kills the person who placed the hammer vote (they do not get to choose).

Something to keep in mind. Solstice probably should have claimed this earlier.

Yeah good point. @Solstice, why did you wait on that?

[Sigh didn't think of that, should have just thought of it it like an informed townie, claimed it immediately, and leashed every hammer to the scummiest player, probably. Didn't think about it enough clearly]

you know what, just elim me and vig him

[That's probably the best course of action. He might actually be the supersaint]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[Could see scum throwing out a guilty in an attempt to get rid of the vigilante -- Dr Easy's days were prolly numbered, and he'd have to keep giving soft inno results which is unfortunate]

[If you wanted to sacrifice him this is probably how you'd do it. idk if Dunn is the target they'd choose but i don't really have any way of knowing who that is. It is a little convenient that Dr Easy got a guilty result on presumably the only player in the game who would be show up as guilty]

[So at this point, not only did Doctor Easy just so happen to have the very same obscure role that Bell fakeclaimed, he also just so happened to crumb it late, and he also just so happened to get a guilty result out of 1/12ish available targets where only one would show up as guilty. Now yeah, obviously he could remove correct townreads from those odds, but he still had to hit the exact scum player who performed the kill]

[Even if I think it's DEB tho, it still makes more sense to shoot him with vig so like ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ doesn't really matter]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[Ooh I like eliminating DEB with Dunn as a hammer since I lean he's the scum and if he's not actually a supersaint, then we lose no townies unnecessarily. If he is a supersaint, then it was unavoidable since we'd have eliminated Dunn anyway]

[Of course.. if it's obvious to others that DEB is the townie, then it would make no sense to do so. but Misty really thought Dunn was town and I personally just find DEB's behaviour to be wacky and incredibly coincidental in so many ways. He's probably one of the more suspected players on his team.. he has the role Bell claims.. he manages to hit the one guilty player in the game on his second try.. his crumb was delayed.. and he doesn't really have much to read off of other than this stuff.]

[I don't really know the "correct" scum plays, though, so I don't know if it's actually worth it for them to sacrifice DEB in order to potentially find or get closer to the vigilante. I would think it is if they felt that had a good shot at landing. Beyond that though, seems like a bad idea to do a 1 for 1 trade that you aren't sure will hit someone important.]

~Morning

[Solstice]

That's why I'm confused. A SuperSaint isn't a Vig. Is a Vengeful.

Only the player lynched is vengeful.

[No supersaints have died.]

[If a supersaint were eliminated, they would instantly kill the hammering player, and then the night phase begins. If Misty and I were to die, then the kills from supersaints would get shut off and nothing would happen if they get eliminated]

[We have only eliminated a VT and a goon so far -- there has been nobody supersainted in this game]

[At this point it is clear either scum has a supersaint player, or there are no supersaints and our role does nothing]

~Morning