Situation Room [Game Over!]

[GuiltyLion]

Oka I feel like every time we play together shenanigans go down, I am excite

[GuiltyLion]

yeah! I had to take a break for a while cause mafia wasn't doing it for me during the whole global pandemic situation, but now I am refreshed and recharged

[GuiltyLion]

Because hopefully that will make it stop

Okay.

Why should it stop?

Because it’s annoying and will make them harder to read

Okay.

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

I find it scummy that you voted someone who only expressed a want to vote you and not someone on your wagon who actually went through with it. Voting someone who didn't commit yet feels like a bullying tactic (not in a social manner, mind you, but it is a bit rude) to keep them away.

That, and justifying it like you are is weak.

This is a reachy vote, Gamma's explanations/justifications for why he voted Dusa (to stop the gimmick) came after you directly asked him about it. The last sentence is not clear to me whether you would expect a town!Gamma to have

better

reasons for voting or that a town!Gamma

wouldn't

have justified it. If the former, that's uncharitable given the game just started and Dusa really hasn't given much to work with, and if the latter, that's _extremely_ uncharitable because you were specifically prompting him to justify it.

I also disagree with your argument that it's scummy to vote someone who isn't voting you yet there, but I'm not sure whether that point is relevant. However he did clearly state that he wanted the gimmick to stop, and it feels to me like you're inventing some other motivation for his vote that wasn't there.

VOTE: Hypothermia

[GuiltyLion]

Dann/Solo can you elaborate on your Bell townreads? I don't especially scumread him but I got a vaguely lamist vibe from a number of his early posts and I'm not seeing why one should be confident to shelve him as town this early

[GuiltyLion]

Yuri have you played with me before? I don't care who you are I just wanna know if you've been in a game with me previously

[GuiltyLion]

good to know thanks just as a heads up I don't think you'd be happy with the results of a GL-yeet tho so don't get too excited

[GuiltyLion]

She's roleplaying as the character Dusa from Hades and making references to that. you should play that game if you're at all a video gamer, one of the best titles of last year

Dann, did you answer my question about your Bell townread?

[GuiltyLion]

Gamma at that point I believe had three votes; he engaged with one with sarcasm but did not make an attempt to really communicate with the people on him. Instead he sees someone who expressed a want to vote him and voted there, which is... confusing to me. I would want to understand more why a small wagon had formed on me even if it’s early, and I was imposing that onto Gamma as well. Engaging with someone on the merits of their posting style felt to me like it was a veiled attempt to dissuade Dusa from that sentiment in an aggressive manner.

Alternatively, I guess it could just be scum!Gamma not knowing how to engage with “stronger” players on his wagon yet but that more than anything is where I feel I’d be uncharitable. But it was the thing that pinged me in this game so far.

You’re correct that I’ve invented motivation though, but that’s just the point of scumhunting I think.

Thanks for this reply, I see where you're coming from a bit better. I think we may have a clash of playstyle/philosophy here, IMO usually (but especially early game) you gotta just take what people give you at face value, if you invent motivations/narratives for why someone's play is scummy you can almost always come up with a plausible scum-agenda explanation for a lot of town play and IMO that's what scum use to their advantage to push fake scumreads

another question, how likely do you think it is that all five players who voted Gamma are town?

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: Solo

I think it's less likely a scum!Hypothermia is upfront about inventing motivation so explicitly, I don't detect any self-consciousness there

I think Solo's townrerad on Oka might be fake, I was debating whether to wait for an answer from Solo on my question re:Bell and whether there was an acknowledgment to some of the pushback on that read, but I'ma go ahead and vote cause I don't like my Hypothermia vote anymore.

Solo, how much mafia have you played previously?

[GuiltyLion]

sorry EBWOP - some of the pushback on that read* - referring to Solo's Oka townread

[GuiltyLion]

also

@northsidegal

- not a big deal, but FakeGod voted Gamma in 91, not 85

corrected, thanks.
-nsg

[GuiltyLion]

hey everyone - haven't read, will give this game my full attention in 2-5 hours from now once I can reasonably call it a day at work. the only game related content I have for this post right now is a general admonishment that anyone not voting should be voting and I will be looking at the group of non-voters quite skeptically on my return

[GuiltyLion]

@Hypo - I haven't posted much at all since then as I wasn't looking at this game for the past 30+ hours or however long it's been and I'm not caught up yet, so that tracks. hi Ydrasse I did not know it was you!

[GuiltyLion]

Gamma probably is town for how early his wagon stalled out, I think if this was a wagon on scum; scum would probably have piled on harder to maintain some semblance of control over the first hood.

This feels reachy and possibly made up to me - do you think Gamma was at especially good odds of being eliminated? And do you think scum are necessarily going to commit to a bus early when any of them get wagoned?

Top Tier Townreads:

Oka Poka, DGB, Dannflor

Second Tier Townreads:

Bell, Hypothermia, Gamma Emerald, Bingle, Yuri G, Unowen

Bubble Territory:

Fakegod, Dusa(If this is Isis she gets a ticket to the next level and maybe top tier)

I also don't particularly like this readslist. I'm still in the process of reading, but at this point in the game I don't see any of Oka/DGB/Dannflor as especially top town, they are all experienced players and nothing any of them had done yet is beyond a capable scumrange. Also feels strange that DGB's one given scumread was Bell but Qoobee has Bell as a townread and no dissonance about top townread DGB scumreading them. It's also just holistically a lot of townreads on the generally more active players in a game where there's 5 scum, I don't see any suspicion towards active players trying to be townread/take Leadership Roles and it's decidedly not confrontational

also, why not move your vote from Gamma at this stage?

[GuiltyLion]

Really, Dusa? You have no opinion on anything I've posted since my first few posts?

I like this post, feels more likely to be an indignant townie than manipulative scum

UNVOTE:

[GuiltyLion]

well town and scum are the only two options

he's challenging Dusa that she hasn't responded to anything he's said. I think scum on the whole are a little more-selfconscious to do that, especially since what he had done between her vote and that post wasn't really all that radically town in nature. So I think it's more likely he

is

town and genuinely a lil frustrated Dusa didn't seem to re-evaluate at all

[GuiltyLion]

because if he's town, he's being indignant, and if he's scum, then everything he posts is meant to manipulate

[GuiltyLion]

Town:
Bell, Guiltylion for good reason i think

Oka why did you have me as town here

p-edit: Gamma I'm not really following your question, I think my last post is pretty clear. He's projecting frustration at Dusa seemingly not re-evaluating him on the basis of his recent posts. If he's town, that's genuine indignance. If he's scum, he knows she's right and is trying to manipulate her away from voting him / into townreading him. What are you not understanding?

[GuiltyLion]

for completeness sake I guess there is the third scenario of S-S, in which case he is manipulating all the rest of us into thinking they are not aligned

[GuiltyLion]

Look i just want to do two things, avoid the existence of a 6th neighborhood and have one good neighborhood and so im just thinking how best to play around these two necessities. Mechanics is boring but its necessary unless we are so confident that we can just chain lim scum

I've been largely ignoring mech talk because I don't think it's really possible to do a lot at this stage (the Herding Votes Problem, as it were), but if we want a good neighborhood, shouldn't we just wait until the 3rd or 4th day or so and then try to arrange at that point? We'll have a few flips and wagons and a sense of what the other neighborhoods are by that stage, I'm not seeing why we should care about this on D1

[GuiltyLion]

so the handwaveyness is maybe what's bothering me here rather than him like, examining further whether he thinks hypo is doing what he says he thinks scum often try to do re inventing narratives/motivations

I can see where you're coming from here

the thing is they openly admitted to doing the thing I thought scum is more likely to do which kinda disarmed me and also removes any direction for further interrogation. I may revisit this and think more about it but at the time it was kinda like "you invented motivation that wasn't there, scum use that to push fake reads", "yes I did invent motivation, that's scumhunting I think", and there wasn't really much more I wanted to probe beyond that, at least not at that moment. And it was easier to imagine her posting what she posted as town, which was the main original sticking point.

knowing that alt is Ydrasse now I'm a little less certain what to make of it because she's got a lot of finesse as scum... but at the time it just felt honest to me and I think regardless of her alignment I wasn't gonna be able to pull anything more from her on that point because we both agreed on the reality of what she was doing

[GuiltyLion]

@GuiltyLion

You think that one's reads should perfectly align with the reads of one's townreads?

nope, didn't say that. I do think if someone has expressed exactly one (1) scumread, there is something off in thinking that they are most likely to be town and yet that their scumread is also town.

I could possibly understand it if there was some effort to engage with you to change your mind or to understand your read. Absent either, I'm left wondering why they are townreading both slots and why they don't seem to care about disagreeing with you.

[GuiltyLion]

conveniently in my catchup I now have an example, I think Solo is still more likely town, but I disagree with a fair amount of this readslist and as a result I have questions about it

Granting myself unlimited word count for read lists

Town:

Gamma
UNOwen
Bell
Qoobee
Oka
Save Dragons

Town?:

Yuri
Dusa
Dannflor
Guiltylion
Cupcake Butterfly

Scum?:

FakeGod
Bingle

Scum:

DGB
Hypothermia
Lavar

Solo - why Qoobee/Dragons town, and why DGB scum?

[GuiltyLion]

ok, I am all caught up and about to bounce for bar trivia. I'll try to check in a little later tonight

as for reads, I think Bell and Bingle are my two strongest, I would trust them today. I also townread Dann fairly strongly as well and don't really understand why he started getting suspicion when he did, I need to take a closer look at that again later.

My lighter townreads are some collection of Gamma, UNOwen, Solo, Dusa, I wouldn't be surprised if I'm wrong on any one of these slots but I think they've actively been more town on average.

I'm thoroughly ambivalent on Hypo, FakeGod, DGB, Lavar, Oka, I don't really have great reasons or inclinations either way on those slots. DGB I could see as town due to some mind melding on a few townreads but it's not beyond the range of skilled scum. Oka felt a lot worse to me up until that recent Yuri vote, that's a fairly spicy and well-reasoned vote and I like it.

Null to scum would be Cupcake, Qoobee, Dragons, Yuri. There's some LHF in this group but at the same time I have no reason to townread them. Odds are a couple are town and I'm off in evaluating the other players in the game, but these would be wagons I'm happy to vote on as it stands

VOTE: Yuri
I think Oka made a great point about the inconsistency in attitude towards mech talk, I also think jumping in to argue with Bingle about mech talk also feels strange given they claimed to not be interested in it. I don't grok why they suspect Dann or are voting there. I also don't really love their explanation of the suspicion on me but frankly I gotta go and don't have time to collect my thoughts and express them neatly yet, will do that when I return but I do want to push this wagon along

[GuiltyLion]

I think Oka made a great point about the inconsistency in attitude towards mech talk, I also think jumping in to argue with Bingle about mech talk also feels strange given they claimed to not be interested in it. I don't grok why they suspect Dann or are voting there. I also don't really love their explanation of the suspicion on me but frankly I gotta go and don't have time to collect my thoughts and express them neatly yet, will do that when I return but I do want to push this wagon along

The mech post from bingle was the first thing I saw after arriving back in thread p much, and I wanted to hop on the first post. Trying to characterise that at being at odds with wanting to avoid mech talk *in general* is a reach.

I'm sorry, did I misunderstand something here?

however, also, mechanics is fucking boring and it's beyond depressing that despite like a 2 day break off it's still being discussed

-------

What doesn’t make sense about my push on Dann, given that I explained it what was bothering me about him?

All you did in this post:

he feels off? both in the being more assertive thing but then also in seeming to drift away from that in ISO as I get further down, and some of the stuff in his big reads post just feels lazy -> GE wagon having scum, DGB townread, the solo-performative comment

was call him lazy. Being lazy is not the same as being scummy, especially in a 17 person game. Short of explaining why the positions he's taking actually benefit a scum agenda, all you're doing is just nitpicking at stuff that's vaguely questionable. I don't see why you think any of the stances you highlighted are scum indicative.

Feels significantly like you’re looking for a way onto my wagon there, GL

you're not really wrong here though, I wanted to vote a wagon that would help create content instead of vanity voting a lower activity slot, and your slot is the best combination of presence, a lack of town vibes, and someone getting voted

[GuiltyLion]

but in 5 additional votes on Yuri I haven't seen one new reason that I recall

does each voter need a new reason? A good reason is a good reason, especially when we haven't had any significant wagons yet

I don't especially count the Gamma wagon as all that significant but I'm open to other perspectives there I guess

[GuiltyLion]

I also think in general Yuri's reply and subsequent vote back onto me felt more snarky and meant to discredit me publicly rather than accomplish anything useful

[GuiltyLion]

Bingle as a top tier town read is ???. There's no explanation for the town read on me either despite there being multiple slots Oka/Yuri who scum read me. Why is Oka's Yuri vote spicy? Why is arguing with Bingle about mech talk strange from Yuri when Yuri specifically mentioned scum reading Bingle and also wanting to find someone mechanically minded to sheep? Yuri already expressed why he was voting me, what about that doesn't GL grok?

Like overall, it's a post that surface level looks good and towny but I find the reads list tiers pretty shallow and convenient and I don't really understand how he got to the Yuri vote either.

were you gonna ask me any of this stuff or were you just gonna vote me and wait until someone asked you why

I can't quite explain the Bingle townread right now but in a little bit of time I can give more detail on that. I also in general am not gonna put a ton of effort into justifying early townreads unless my own position has changed and I want to explain, or if someone disagrees and wants to hash it out, especially if they're scumreading the slot in question that I'm townreading. I can point to past completed town games where I take this same position. Also, I was literally about to leave my home when I posted that so it was never gonna be a high effort post in general.

As for Oka/Yuri scumreading you, I didn't especially like either of those scumreads and that's another piece of why I'm not really townreading Yuri and wasn't really sure on Oka. Oka pivoting to voting Yuri was the main thing I liked from him, and it's spicy because it's forming a bigger wagon on a polarizing player with a reason I could get behind

[GuiltyLion]

also Dann, what is your read on Yuri yourself, I just re-skimmed your ISO and didn't see it. Are you townreading that slot or are you just pushing back on people voting it?

[GuiltyLion]

I'm curious. What's people's Solo read?

I didn't like his early posts but I got a town vibe from his reaction to being pushed, namely by UNOwen and Dusa

[GuiltyLion]

I'm sorry I got prodded, I will be around to post tomorrow especially later in the day (so roughly 16+ hours from now). I don't know how any why the Cupcake wagon sprung up but I'd like to catch up and see what's going on and get back involved cause I have not really properly gotten a good foothold in mid D1.

UNVOTE: for now because I don't want Yuri this close to elimination when I'm not caught up. This is not meant to indicate that my read on Yuri has changed and I may very well vote back on this wagon tomorrow, there's just clearly a lot of content I need to read and absorb and my vote is stale until I've done that.

This maybe a stupid point if it's been covered already but I notice Cupcake isn't voting and notably isn't voting their counterwagon. If this hasn't been discussed yet it should be, I'm going to be looking at Cupcakes Yuri read first and foremost once I actually have time to play.

[GuiltyLion]

Can yall please not do anything rash until tomorrow, was a little alarming that even while I was typing that Cupcake picked up another vote.

Anyway it's 2am here, ta ta for now but will be back when I said.

[GuiltyLion]

I have yet to fully catch up, am on mobile and have been reading posts since my last post rather than where I actually left off on the thread, but I want in on this Gamma wagon based on the last two pages alone as I completely trust and agree with Dusa

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

Again, more to come when I have time to sit and play at a computer tonight

[GuiltyLion]

I feel like Dusa may be trying to deflect attention from actual scum with this maneuver

If Dann or whoever needs a "unique" or "new" reason for me to sheep here, this comment especially strikes me as disingenuous bullshit. Townies say who the "actual scum" is when they sincerely believe this. From context we assume it's Cupcake, but the point is this thought process and sentence in particular feels fake and reactive and manufactured

[GuiltyLion]

as an addendum to my last post, I thought of exactly my problem with it. "Actual scum" only exists as a phrase Gamma used to make himself sound better/townier. "Don't vote me guys, we need to vote aCtUaL sCuM". It's heinously awkward phrasing

[GuiltyLion]

Bingle/Dusa/Bell/UNOwen/Dann feels like a solid town core to me.

[GuiltyLion]

I find myself truly torn between liking this content and hating the way in which it is expressed.

My first line is meant to be cheeky/humorous if that helps you like it better

[GuiltyLion]

i do not like seeing that he is joining wagons with momentum while being somewhat low activity and struggling to keep up.

Which of my votes onto wagons did you not like? What are things you would like to see from me that you haven't yet?

Also, I pinky promise you that my activity in this game is going to ramp up drastically over the next few days and weeks. Can you forgive me for my past sins and let me operate with more gusto in our time going forward?

[GuiltyLion]

temporary alliance with yuri ?? ?

VOTE: guiltylion

It's also yucky that you're starting this now after an excellent Gamma wagon is taking off. Are you TRing Gamma?

[GuiltyLion]

It's only been one week since we started and I actually have a really great reason that I haven't prioritized this game yet, in part because it's just d1! I promise my posting rate will only go up from here, if your scumread is solely based on my activity that's very quickly not going to cut it for much longer.

Also, I'm not really "struggling to keep up", I got prodded once and there's like maybe 7-8 pages where people voted Cupcake and a50/Titus replaced in that I will read later today and then I'll be caught up.

[GuiltyLion]

Bingle/Dusa/Bell/UNOwen/Dann feels like a solid town core to me.

Sell me the Bell TR. I am willing to pay double the market price for that one.

I can do this when I get to a PC tonight. The one liner preview summary is that he has a consistent presence in the thread that has been poking at questionable slots in a way that feels to me pure and agendaless, he "passes the vibe check" as it were.

[GuiltyLion]

Am I lagging behind the pack when I decided to hop on Gamma today after he obscummed? Still not following what you think it is that I'm really missing, outside of the Cupcake wagon, which I don't think you were interested in based on VCs and what I've seen you post since I've been following along today

[GuiltyLion]

the skeevy way he tried to join the Cupcake wagon and then his immediately terrible reaction to being challenged by Dusa on it. Pages 45, 46, and 47. And you're accusing me of lagging behind?

I don't mind if you think this is me bussing, Gammas posting was real bad and I think this is a great lim here.

[GuiltyLion]

Just to make sure I'm understanding, is this "if you're scum you TMId Gamma / see something I don't" meant to suggest I'm bussing? You're not saying you think you're voting town here right

[GuiltyLion]

I am home and about to do the Promised Reread

Oka's scumread on me is feeling a little too sticky, I don't like it

like I don't actually know what it is he thinks town!me should be doing that I haven't or am not, feels like he just wants to capitalize on me being absent for a few days which a) I actually do think I can explain to some satisfaction eventually and b) is not going to happen again

I am also willing to volunteer to not be on this wagon if people have reasons to not want that and think it will help town, though obviously I'd prefer to be in the hood

[GuiltyLion]

Scum!Dusa hard TRing Scum!Bingle is unthinkable. Bingle wouldn't let his p do that.

Scum!Dusa hard TRing Town!Bingle doesn't make sense. Scumj want to get rid of Bingle (and his mechanical analysis) ASAP

Comclusion: Dusa is Town regardless

A50 - what makes you say scum!Bingle wouldn't let a partner hard townread him?

[GuiltyLion]

ooh one other quick thought I just had re:Oka scumreading me, it feels like he ramped it up in intensity after Bingle/Dann both indicated they were still scumreading me

if Bingle/Dann are both town I think that might point to a scum!Oka waiting until it feels reasonably safe to keep me around as a viable miselim because he's more sure there exist Paranoid Townies who don't trust me (yet)

[GuiltyLion]

because I can be capital D Dangerous if left alive and townread

or at least that's what my ego wants me to say

[GuiltyLion]

wait lmao I hadn't even seen 1091, the fact that Gamma replied to 1064 to question it but then completely ignored 1091 when he decided to vote CB just further makes him look Bad

honestly I'm not seeing a lot of super interesting or useful content otherwise in this section I hadn't read

[GuiltyLion]

What question was that again? This one?

...?
What's the end goal of this? What made you think/want to do this?

He actually did answer it, lol

Since this translates to the gamestate having wagons bullseye-ing town, I'm losing trust in the votes on the current wagons.

And me being a counterwagon could imply two things I see right now:

1.

Scum are deflecting from a Yuri wagon, either to whiteknight a suspected town for credit or to protect a scumbuddy.

2.

I'm an easy vote for scum to jump onto since everybody generally scumreads me for two universally noted reasons: I have not committed to a scumread openly, and I have had inconsistent activity.

Both situations are not mutually exclusive, which is part of what prompted me to launch

The Wheel of Speech!

[GuiltyLion]

as for my thoughts on 1091, I don't like it. Feels like a giant wall of IIOA that amounts to say nothing specific about any individual players and is surprisingly devoid of any actual reads. Nothing in it struck me as especially townie and I actually liked the main engine of the CB wagon (Bingle, FakeGod, DGB, Dann), so I feel like I'm in a bit of an unusual spot where Gamma's hop on was so obviously contrived and bad that he is the better wagon currently, but CB is not really cleared by association

[GuiltyLion]

I like the format of Dann's tier list but I'm too lazy to use the tiermaker rn so just to summarize where my head is at having fully caught up now

S - Dusa, Bingle, Dann, Bell
A - UNOwen, DGB
B - FakeGod, STD
C - A50, Titus, Lavar, T3, Oka, Yuri, CB
D - Gamma

anyone above the C tier I'm townreading and not really into limming today

I'm going to have to do more work sorting in the C tier, it's a mix of people who are vaguely scummy by lack of doing anything significantly townie or game advancing (Lavar, T3, CB), and some people who have clearly given some game relevant content/reads/votes and could definitely be town but aren't really outside of a scumrange or I've misread historically and so I just don't feel great about a townread on them and likely will need more hard associatives or information (Yuri, A50, Titus, Oka). Maybe it would have been more useful to combine the A/B tiers and try to divide the C tier into a B tier and a C tier, I might take a stab at that later since that feels like it'd actually be Useful Content

happy to receive feedback on this one so fire away. I know I promised A50 a town!Bell case but I definitely don't have the energy for it at this moment and I'm also not sure I actually want to do it, so that will have to be a tomorrow thing if it does happen

[GuiltyLion]

my other issue is I'm Fully Bothered by CB and Lavar just not having voted at all today, I am always going to scumread and want to eliminate there because it's fundamentally not playing the game and not making oneself transparent/readable but at the same time I struggle to believe that two members of a scum team are both deciding to play completely passively and forfeit any opportunity to try to determine the elimination or even generate a narrative

[GuiltyLion]

also, Oka's hop from Yuri to me, and then quickly onto Gamma feels a bit like flailing around not knowing what to do about the Gamma wagon to me, but I also want to believe scum!Oka is a better player than that and isn't necessarily driven to flailing there given it's D1

and I feel if he's scum and Gamma's town and the goal was to make me look bad on a Gamma miselimination, then those were not the posts/arguments he would have made. It does look like he could be trying to set up to push me on the basis of being scum with Gamma, but again I feel like he'd have been more crafty and less awkward about it if it was a scum plan

so the whole thing feels off but having a hard time feeling like I know what to think about it

[GuiltyLion]

oh yeah no I'm not saying he should have kept pushing Yuri or anything, I just don't get what the switch between me/Gamma was all about.

I think regardless of his alignment he probably felt self-conscious about moving from voting a guy to voting the guy being voted by the guy he was just voting, so maybe the whole thing was just town!Oka borking out not knowing what to do, mainly all of it just felt not very well thought out

[GuiltyLion]

Dann's quick pivot on Gamma from S tier townread to voting him, and then subsequent explanation of it under pressure is super town-indicative IMO. Scum are almost always far too self-conscious to project such a wild trajectory swing and I think in the rare cases that they do something like that, they either try to make up some

really damning

reason for their vote switch, or they try to act very blasé and like it's forced upon them by others/deadline. Dann is doing neither here and it's very easy to understand his POV coming from town

[GuiltyLion]

Feels like people are putting me on the backburner in favor of a more probable lim rather than sorting me, since most of the responses to my game were some variation of "I don't care." Nothing in good faith for me to grab a hold onto here. :/ It's feeding my disinterest with hard-solving.

how do you expect us to sort you when you're not attempting to sort most players yourself?

[GuiltyLion]

Why do people townread Dusa?

I find her hard to read because of the gimmick.

I also disagree that the gimmick is making her hard to read, she's done a lot more than most players in this game in terms of giving reads and making pushes. though I don't know if me playing a lot of Hades is biasing me there helping to understand the voice/character she's roleplaying.

What I want to know is why you voted Gamma if you don't have a comfortable read on Dusa, or why you don't townread Dusa if you think Gamma's scum? Dusa initiated the Gamma wagon and has been pounding the table for it non-stop since.

[GuiltyLion]

I can somewhat empathize a bit with CB's 1363 and 1367 after the one I just replied to, though 1366 from Dann basically mirrors my own thoughts.

Dusa, walk me through your progression on Oka?

CB, why did you ask this question specifically? Like why Dusa and why her read on just Oka?

[GuiltyLion]

Because Bingle knows how to play scum, my friend, and is likely to give tips to his teammates. If they still wanna do it he's likely to hard push them in-thread.

I guess what I'm asking is are you basing this off of things Bingle has said and/or your firsthand experience with his philosophy of how to play scum, or are you projecting your own beliefs here? I don't think it's universally bad play for scum to hard TR each other if they can get away with it, and that's without taking the set up into account where having scum together in a hood as widely townread players would be quite useful for the team.

I don't at all think either Dusa or Bingle are scum but I'm trying to figure out to what degree you really believe your own reasoning for why Dusa/Bingle aren't aligned, it stands out to me as a somewhat moonlogicky post

[GuiltyLion]

Alright so I can finally really address the activity remarks lodged at me by Oka and also clarify a bit more specifically why I townread Bingle

This other game literally

just

finished: viewtopic.php?f=83&t=86547

and had a lot of final 3 LIMLO overlap with the start of this game. I'm trying to only play one game at once these days, this game popped off in queue a little earlier than I was anticipating so there was overlap that I wasn't prepared for.

I was fighting for my life (ultimately unsuccessfully :[) in the Micro and so there were several real life days where I'd use all my brainpower/energy/time onsite to play that game and was subsequently skating a bit here, as D1 of a large is much lower priority for me than a final 3 situation.

As for the Bingle townread - he was scum in that same game and played a very different game than how he played here. Was a lot more aggressive, stirred the pot more pushing at players I townread, didn't seem as laid back/calm as he is here. I also had a hunch that his scumread towards me in this game was likely genuine - if Bingle was scum

again

here and knew that I am town, he would know that my activity was explicitly because I was coasting and hadn't turned on the jets for this game yet, which might make me harder to convincingly scumread/push as soon as the other game wrapped up. Instead, I find it more likely he's town, doesn't know my alignment, and if anything was genuinely suspicious that I wasn't matching my playing effort in the other game.

[GuiltyLion]

Good start IMO.

Yuri, oka, save the dragons has scum in it IMO.

I agree with this although I'd also throw T3 into that pool, and I agree with Dusa that Oka's chaotic play around the Gamma wagon feels kinda more likely to be genuine due specifically to how awkward it was.

I'm gonna go back and review the first start of Gamma wagon, Gamma wagon 1.0, and see if anything stands out there.

[GuiltyLion]

yuri can i borrow you to vote lim gl today i promise to lim you after

are you ignoring the point I just made about how my lack of presence in this game was specifically due to dedicating my time trying to win a F3 limlo in another game in which I was heavily suspected as town

why do you think I'm scum

[GuiltyLion]

Votecount 1.7

Target	Wagon
Gamma Emerald (5)	FakeGod (91), Bell (95), Hypothermia (134), Qoobee (137), Save The Dragons (195)
Hypothermia (2)	Dannflor (151), GuiltyLion (189)
Dusa (1)	Gamma Emerald (119)
Yuri Gagarin (1)	Solo (181)
Cupcake Butterfly (1)	UNOwen (185)
GuiltyLion (1)	Yuri Gagarin (199)
Solo (1)	Dusa (238)
Not Voting (5)	Bingle, OkaPoka, Cupcake Butterfly, DrippingGoofball, LavarManos

With 17 alive, it takes 9 to eliminate. The Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2021-06-25 19:26:59).

Votecount 1.10

Target	Wagon
Gamma Emerald (4)	FakeGod (91), Hypothermia (134), Qoobee (137), Save The Dragons (195)
Save The Dragons (3)	Bingle (261), Bell (270), Dannflor (305)
Solo (3)	Dusa (238), GuiltyLion (258), UNOwen (321)
FakeGod (2)	Solo (283), Gamma Emerald (289)
GuiltyLion (1)	Yuri Gagarin (199)
Not Voting (4)	OkaPoka, Cupcake Butterfly, DrippingGoofball, LavarManos

With 17 alive, it takes 9 to eliminate. The Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2021-06-25 19:26:59).

Votecount 1.11

Target	Wagon
Save The Dragons (4)	Bingle (261), Bell (270), Dannflor (305), Qoobee (336)
Gamma Emerald (3)	FakeGod (91), Hypothermia (134), Save The Dragons (195)
Solo (3)	Dusa (238), GuiltyLion (258), UNOwen (321)
FakeGod (2)	Solo (283), Gamma Emerald (289)
GuiltyLion (1)	Yuri Gagarin (199)
Not Voting (4)	OkaPoka, Cupcake Butterfly, DrippingGoofball, LavarManos

With 17 alive, it takes 9 to eliminate. The Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2021-06-25 19:26:59).

Dannflor and Bell are town.

Bingle is probably town.

Not liking Dragon's reaction so far.

VOTE: Save the Dragons

Gamma probably is town for how early his wagon stalled out, I think if this was a wagon on scum; scum would probably have piled on harder to maintain some semblance of control over the first hood.

(I swear I am not being unduly influenced by Gamma townreading me >.>)

Qoobee jumping off Gamma to STD and making this justification for town!Gamma still so early into D1 is a bad look IMO

maybe this is foolish but I also kinda doubt town lucked into driving up a scum!Dragons counterwagon to a scum!Gamma

not that I think Bingle/Bell votes were bad but it seems just unlikely on the whole that the first two wagons on game were both on scum

[GuiltyLion]

Looking at the EoD vc once GuiltyLion voted the other wagons started to lose steam and Gamma became inevitable. By that point all the scum are going to want to discreetly pile on Gamma. I know I also voted Gamma but (I think) I had just replaced in and then voted him for basically flailing.

this also wasn't the reason T3 gave for voting Gamma

Recent posts seem like scum having no idea what to do for gama. VOTE: gamma

and T3's post questioning Dusa's status as town while being on the Gamma wagon that she championed was strange even before Gamma scum flip

so yeah I'm not liking T3 slot

VOTE: T3

[GuiltyLion]

Thoughts on FakeGod quickhammer?

its a good quickhammer

Hard to know. He said himself town should want to be on the wagon and he’s 100% correct.

Yeah. I don't think scum would be that obvious about wanting to get into a neighborhood.

also why ask 1459 then give thoughts three minutes later after just two players have answered

makes me think 1459 is performative, if he was thinking FakeGod's quick hammer was town he shoulda just said that instead of giving us an icebreaker question

[GuiltyLion]

@Dragons - I don't know if T3 is Good at Mafia or not, his play to me fits the profile of not-so-skilled scum, if he was someone whose game I respected a lot more then I probably wouldn't find this stuff indicative but then again he probably wouldn't have been making these types of bad posts

even 1239 I think is kinda bad, cause while I was definitely thinking that was the stage where scum would be put into an awkward spot with how to deal with Gamma wagon, voting Gamma specifically on the basis of other scum not knowing what to do with him feels fundamentally a little too self-aware and manufactured

Bell can you tell me what it is from T3 that you townread here?

[GuiltyLion]

maybe he’s able to read me or alternatively maybe he’s town

did you mean to write scum at the end of your post here? Otherwise it's not making sense to me

[GuiltyLion]

Dusa I'd like your attention/thoughts on the points I laid against Qoobee/T3 slot in 1510, 1518, 1521, 1527

[GuiltyLion]

one other thought I have right now is that the Yuri wagon feels bad because nobody on it was a Primary Driver of Gamma

also I want Bingle/Bell in whatever neighborhood gets formed today

[GuiltyLion]

do you think its reasonable for town to want to keep someone alive who is actively working to sabotage town's win conditions because they don't give a fuck now?

at the same time this is the kinda shit that scum love to push

can y'all just make truce and sheep me on T3

[GuiltyLion]

UNOwen and Titus both ended the day voting Yuri and opened the day voting Yuri, as if there was no re-evaluation whatsoever on the whole Gamma wagon build + flip

that is where we should be looking for scummy Yuri voters IMO

I do think Yuri feels a lot more town after this whole battle with Oka

[GuiltyLion]

my suspects are basically T3 for all the bad associative stuff I called out today, UNOwen/Titus/A50 for not voting scum and being kinda absent from the gravity of Gamma's obvscumminess in general, Lavar and CB for seemingly intentionally being unreadable and not playing, and then small chance of possibly some other deepwolf powerscum elsewhere in a blindspot for me who's playing reasonably townie and did a good job distancing from Gamma

[GuiltyLion]

A50 what if scum!Titus was frustrated because she was hoping to have an opportunity to play for towncred on Gamma's flip

[GuiltyLion]

Qoobee jumping off Gamma to STD and making this justification for town!Gamma still so early into D1 is a bad look IMO

Lol I was thinking this too.

why not vote T3 then?

why have you not voted at all?

[GuiltyLion]

I think T3 is unprepared for runs of this heat level in general which makes it hard to say for sure he is definitely bad! However this points towards his potentially being bad!

I also don't like the way he described my tone! I think if my high pitched voice made it harder to see my soul, he would just guess my soul wrong! I think he is bad and instead said he can't see my soul, because he knew if he was good he would be guessing wrong!

Does that make sense!?!?!?!

yeah, I see what you're saying in the second paragraph here as well

It is possible he's just playing on a heat level that's too high (could certainly be Jury Summons that's causing his difficulties), but he's definitely not a slot I want alive through endgame at the moment

I saw Bingle suggesting we should hunt off wagon for today though and I can see the merit to that, plus everyone's had a chance to weigh in so I mayy drop this push for now once I finish responding to posts and thinking about what to do

[GuiltyLion]

UNOwen and Titus both ended the day voting Yuri and opened the day voting Yuri, as if there was no re-evaluation whatsoever on the whole Gamma wagon build + flip

- I clearly spite voted Yuri, didn't I?
- Do you think Hypo/Gamma was distancing? Doesn't seem likely to me.

I'm not following what "spite voting" has to do with anything here? You opened trying to pick up the same questions you had towards Yuri on D2, to me that suggests you're still scumreading him. And then you voted him when he didn't answer them, which presumably means you scumread him? What changes by calling it a "spite" vote, are you saying you don't actually think Yuri is scum or a useful vote?

I can definitely imagine Hypo/Gamma as distancing. What makes you say it's not likely? I called out how Hypo's reasoning for voting Gamma felt like a reach at the time, I still don't really like that initial explanation she gave for the vote even though her explanation for the explanation was plausible.

And Gamma kinda discredited/shaded Hypo in 135 and later 249 but it never evolved into a scumread or vote on her, and then didn't mention Titus in any meaningful or substantive way at all. It could be T-S but I'm certainly not seeing anything that pushes me away from S-S.

[GuiltyLion]

Your other two SRs just happen to be the people voting you.

A50 wasn't voting T3 when he posted that, also T3 hasn't really suggested a scumread on me, this feels disingenuous

[GuiltyLion]

Leftovers: Bingle, Almost50, UNOwen, Titus, CB, LavarManos, Bell

of these, I have no interest in Bingle/Bell today, and I think A50's D2 play has felt fairly townie to me. There was also this post:

I am unlikely to join the fast-growing Gamma wagon. I don't see anything scummy in their posts and I dislike the speed in which it got from 0 to 5 votes

which I think is less likely to come from scum!A50 partnered with scum!Gamma, it feels to me like he really didn't know that Gamma was scum.

I'd be a fine with a wagon on any of the UNOwen/Titus/CB/Lavar slots frankly, I'm not townreading any of them. UNOwen sounded towniest D1 but his actual engagement with the game feels a bit surface level and I'm not grokking his latest reads/pushes.

Titus I think I need more from her today to help sort and I'm probably due for a reread of her ISO. A50's point about her EOD play and frustration with the hammer might be good.

CB and Lavar are just nothing slots. On this:

I think Gamma trying to skeevy his way onto CB wagon in D1 indicates CB town.

Could it not be scum!Gamma trying to get into the hood and distance from scum!CB? I feel the beginning of CB wagon was townie considering the voters and the timing of it, so I don't know if I think Gamma was necessarily trying to capitalize on a miselim as CB might have been at the point where scum were seeking reasons to bus him. Gamma also didn't really push CB that hard once he started getting voted instead - despite flipping to confidently to asserting CB scum, I can't say that I feel Gamma actually wanted us to eliminate CB instead of himself.

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: Cupcake Butterfly

[GuiltyLion]

I will read for detail Monday night but I am liking all three wagons at first blush. That worries me a bit as the odds of hitting three scum wagons this early is remote.

I see the reason for voting Yuri as relayed by OkaPoka.
I see the lack of detail from cupcake in skimming her large posts
I see the overreaction from Gamma.

As of now, consider my vote on the largest wagon. This should provide a lot of detail for VCA.

I know I need to sort through which wagon I prefer but that's hard to do with the pace of the game and my life. I am trying not to VLA.

Gamma is at l minus 2

Please don't hammer until I can catch up. I see how he can be scum I wanted to catch up.

I am thinking scum, minus Gamma, just have a low WIM. Either Yuri Cupcake and Gamma are all scum or there's townie sounding scum. I know sounds opportunist but I'd rather flip all three for my VCA.

I guess scum!Titus would have maybe played with more of an agenda around Gamma's wagon and inevitable flip here. This does vibe a bit more like town who genuinely is fine with flipping Gamma but doesn't need to look good from it

[GuiltyLion]

GL, why are you TRing bingle?

As for the Bingle townread - he was scum in that same game and played a very different game than how he played here. Was a lot more aggressive, stirred the pot more pushing at players I townread, didn't seem as laid back/calm as he is here. I also had a hunch that his scumread towards me in this game was likely genuine - if Bingle was scum again here and knew that I am town, he would know that my activity was explicitly because I was coasting and hadn't turned on the jets for this game yet, which might make me harder to convincingly scumread/push as soon as the other game wrapped up. Instead, I find it more likely he's town, doesn't know my alignment, and if anything was genuinely suspicious that I wasn't matching my playing effort in the other game.

Basically it's a combo of having literally just played with him as scum where he felt much more aggressive and agenda driven than he does so far here, and my second point about how I think scum!Bingle would be less likely to scumread me so hard on D1 of this game if he knew for a fact that I'm town.

I know Bingle has said before that he respects my towngame, so I don't think he would want to risk putting himself at odds with me or starting a push he wouldn't be able to follow through on when he would know that my coasting early this game was solely due to an ongoing game that was going to wrap up soon.

I also don't really see why people are scumreading him? I don't think anything he's argued or posted so far has struck me as disingenuous nor particularly goal-oriented.

[GuiltyLion]

Both Solo and A50 (his replacement) defended Gamma.

This slot is where I want to execute today.

VOTE: Almost50

Can someone explain the A50 wagon? I can't see why anyone would vote there over cupcake.

Solo defended Gamma. A50 also defended Gamma. Gamma was scum.

It seems unlikely for two unconnected town aligned players to make exact same mistake.

I think the slot is scum and they were trying to defend their teammate.

I hadn't considered that two different players in the slot both defended Gamma, this is a good point. And Solo's defense of Gamma is pretty extensive and bad.

My main hesitation is A50 was so blatant about it. Maybe I'm getting sucked into trying too hard to big brain or I'm drinking the wine, but A50's defense was so explicit yet simultaneously not likely to reverse Gamma's fate that it doesn't feel partner-y to me. Am I wrong in thinking that way? What did scum!a50 really gain from his 1206 and 1207?

[GuiltyLion]

I'm not following what "spite voting" has to do with anything here? You opened trying to pick up the same questions you had towards Yuri on D2, to me that suggests you're still scumreading him. And then you voted him when he didn't answer them, which presumably means you scumread him? What changes by calling it a "spite" vote, are you saying you don't actually think Yuri is scum or a useful vote?

Spite vote not spite suspicion. The point being that if I wasn't interested in re-evaluating then I wouldn't have bothered putting the same arguments to Yuri that he'd already ignored.

Alternatively: if I had opened the day with a post along the lines of "still think Yuri is scum vote:Yuri" then the suggestion that I might have been intending to ignore the Gamma flip would feel more reasonable to me. What I actually did was quote a couple of points that I agreed with about the Gamma wagon then tried to improve my Yuri read as the starting point. Lazily done sure but distinct from what you said IMO.

As for my vote: I think Yuri is suspicious, but it's far from the most confident I've ever been on a scum read.

any thoughts on everything Yuri's posted today? I think this response to me is fine, but I don't like how you basically engaged with just me and then switched from Yuri to A50 without giving thoughts on like... anything else

[GuiltyLion]

Can someone explain the A50 wagon? I can't see why anyone would vote there over cupcake.

I think Cupcake is also bad!

I think it is bad that Almost50 read Gamma's very bad posts and did not attack Gamma! Then he said he was only not hurting Gamma because too many people want to hurt Gamma! Then he posted that Gamma was likely bad, which is opposite!

oh actually you know I forgot that A50 did switch to scumreading Gamma by EOD

which does make his half-assed defense of Gamma worse

[GuiltyLion]

UNVOTE:

Feels too early for this to be at E-1, I'd like at least Cupcake to post or a replacement. I'd like more from UNOwen and a50 today as well.

[GuiltyLion]

UNVOTE:

Feels too early for this to be at E-1, I'd like at least Cupcake to post or a replacement. I'd like more from UNOwen and a50 today as well.

Alright this is very towny.

didn't you already say you were townreading me? Who are you posting this for?

[GuiltyLion]

Also, you are lamenting your inaccurate reads, but also demanding that people follow them.

I like this point. I also don't know if I believe A50's conviction in his FakeGod scumread in general, he's done very little to case it or explain it and most players aren't scumreading him so I would expect a fair bit more selling that read if A50 was town and really wanted to make sure FG went down after his flip. The only thing I see in his ISO is hypocrisy about quickhammering (which I don't buy as scum-indicative at all) and this post:

OK, maybe not.. (except for the readlist itself), so let;s just say the quick!hammer is my only reason for now (as trying to remember why I had him as SR would require me to reread his ISO)

so it doesn't feel like the confidence in his read matches the confidence in his dying will

also I was inclined to give A50 some town credit for defending Titus when I was throwing suspicion her way earlier, but now I think Titus is just town and that may have been an attempt to riff on something easy to make himself look solvey or to pocket Titus

[GuiltyLion]

all of UNOwen's recent posts are good too which makes me feel significantly better about the a50 wagon comp

[GuiltyLion]

I think I prefer A50 now here

I agree with Bingle that Gamma/CB interactions don't stand out as especially T-S or non-partnery, I don't think Gamma played in a way to fight for his life at Cupcake's expense. That said, I think FG makes a good point that both Solo/A50 defending Gamma slot feels less likely to come from two independent townies. A50's pivot to shading the Gamma wagon to lumping Gamma in with scumreads looks suspicious as well. So while I can imagine CB being a Gamma partner, I don't have quite as compelling reasons for it as I do A50

This is where I'd vote A50 but I don't wanna steal DGB's spot on that wagon necessarily if it wants it back, and I'm also thinking we should negotiate wagon composition as currently the A50 wagon is a lot of the same voters as the Gamma wagon (another good reason to vote A50 over CB) and I still kinda want Bingle/Bell in a hood.

[GuiltyLion]

I would still like a CB replacement or something in case the slot is limbait

[GuiltyLion]

I would still like a CB replacement or something in case the slot is limbait

Do you have confidence you can read a rep in better than random?

Yes I think if someone replaced in and started playing CB's slot right now, I would have a more confident read on them within a few game Days than what I can get from CB's D1 play alone

I also think if CB is town then even if it's mislimmed it's better having someone there to fight back against the wagon than us mindlessly pushing through a wagon on an empty slot

[GuiltyLion]

So we turn away from a lurker with actual scummy posts that's posting elsewhere to another lurker with no content whatsoever. That makes a lot of sense.

I want to look at monkey’s reaction to the wagon on him,

You just did. Now promise me you will do T3/FG after me when I flip green. It's not too much to ask, is it?

Why should I vote for either of these two instead of, say, CB?

UNVOTE:

Because I'm not 100% on CB's alignment.

can you talk about why you are so confident on FG's alignment? Because I really don't see a lot of good reasons for why you think scum!FG in your ISO

[GuiltyLion]

whoops, didn't mean to have that Titus quote quoted, I think I still had that on Q+

[GuiltyLion]

I said let's just say it's the hammer and leave it at that.

I dunno man I can't just "leave it at that" when you're asking that we agree to eliminate him following your flip based on an argument that I don't agree with

[GuiltyLion]

I don't trust the A50/T3 votes on NM slot

[GuiltyLion]

A50 everyone regardless of alignment is going to act like it's anti-town for people to vote them

it's a lot harder for scum to convincingly argue why they believe we should follow their scumreads, whereas a hallmark of town is

genuine

belief in their votes/scumreads advancing a town agenda.

what I'm missing from you is why

you

think it's pro town to eliminate FG. Why was it scummy for him to quickhammer Gamma? Why is his push on you in bad faith, especially given you yourself acknowledged that unvoting you when he did doesn't make much sense coming from scum?

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: Almost50

I'm still not buying his scumread on FakeGod nor the way he's waffling about on CB-slot

[GuiltyLion]

My suggestion was to offer you PROOF that my reads are -at least- coming from a town mindset, while -at the same time- providing you PROOF that some of your reads -and precisely the one on me- was WRONG.

the point I'm making to you is that you flipping green isn't going to suddenly convince me that you were actually right on FakeGod even if my suspicion of you was wrong and your intentions are good. Because I still don't see anything scum-indicative in what you've said about him. So I'm asking you to help me understand both what you see in him that's scummy and why you're so certain about it, and you're just kinda flippantly dismissing it.

As a result I have a hard time believing you actually care to see FG flipped, because you're not doing any work to sell it other than this demand to sheep you once we know your alignment. Imagine N_M posts "promise me you'll kill Bingle after I flip" and self-votes and flips green, would you really vote Bingle tomorrow based on that alone?

[GuiltyLion]

like, as an addendum, I think Gamma throwing a tantrum about FG voting him early D1, going so far as to call it a "go fuck yourself", is about as non-partnery as it gets, so FG is extremely far down on my list of people I want to vote or eliminate. It's gonna take a lot more than an A50 green flip going out saying "FakeGod said he was going to eliminate anyone who quickhammers Gamma, then he quickhammered Gamma" to get me to vote there, especially this early in the game when there's a ton of worse slots to sort through.

[GuiltyLion]

the way he's waffling about on CB-slot

Why is he waffling? What is the motivation?

He's constantly fit a pattern of scumreading the CB slot enough to vote, but never indicates any full confidence or even gives reasons why he thinks CB is scum.

D1 vote says he "won't vote the scummiest person":

Let me be honest: I won't be voting the scummiest person (I am too lazy to effort today). but I will be voting where I think is a good hood (i.e. join the wagon that -if goes through- will put me in the same PT with people I like to work with)

VOTE: Cupcake Butterfly

still scumreads CB:

Current SRs (based on a special theory): Gamma, Bell, T3, FG, CB

still scumreads CB and votes again:

Not my #1 pick here (T3 is my #1 & FG is my #2), but it'll do

VOTE: CB

now the waffling comes in:

The wagonomics of today *checks to make sure N_M is not around* make me think CB is indeed Scum (there's a slight chance I'm being wagoned bc my reads are good, but it's been some time since I actually did have good reads so I won't be shocked if CB was Town afterall)

"Won't be shocked if CB was town"

The ONLY thing I do want to repeat is: FG IS SCUM. T3 IS SCUM. CB "maybe" Scum. Bell is vendicated.

"maybe" scum

Because I'm not 100% on CB's alignment.

"not 100%"

I don't want to lim N_M, but I still think the slot is more scum than not.

"more scum than not"

It's remarkably consistent how often he says he thinks it's scum, but isn't sure, while expressing greater confidence in other slots like T3 and FakeGod. Don't get me wrong, I'm also ambivalent about CB, but IMO the sheer number of times he indicates he's not certain about CB at this point makes me suspect scum that knows CB is about to flip green and wants to make sure he doesn't come out looking like he's completely wrong. This would let him keep pushing other slots like T3 or FakeGod tomorrow without needing to re-evaluate.

[GuiltyLion]

Gamma throwing a tantrum about FG voting him early D1, going so far as to call it a "go fuck yourself"

How do you distinguish this from being angry about being bus'ed?

I don't think he'd be genuinely angry about a single vote from a partner in the first 100-150 posts of the game.

Gamma was also appeasing of FG at other times:

and my only solid SR is Fenrir, FG is being weird but idk if it's scummy

;-;
FG I tried to restore good relations and you seem to be overlooking it
Pls notice me senpai

I think I’m ready to start considering FG town

and this doesn't feel like theater to me:

Do you have no concept of time? Do you not realize how much time existed between your vote and mine? Why are you trying to assert it was in direct response to your vote?
and I don't believe you had anything to say when I had this reaction in SFA so why are you trying to call me out like this now?

no, you're whining that I voted you

you got pissed and voted me, then called me out in 594 telling everyone I told you to go fuck yourself

I voted you because I had a bad feeling about you
one that has only continued to be perceived as the game has progressed

the personal attack thing has nothing to do with that. I don't like you trying to construe my vote on you as some emotional meltdown, it feels like you're trying to not actually address my real issue because you don't know how to get around it

[GuiltyLion]

I'll respond to A50's case later after I have more time to look at it

[GuiltyLion]

apply your own standards to yourself.

what does this even mean? What standards?

All I'm saying is you projected a lot of confidence in scum!FG for reasons you previously did not bother to give or share with the thread. Once under pressure from me, you have now posted a long case that I don't have the time to read carefully or think deeply about right now because I'm in the process of making dinner, and then I have a commitment. I'll be back later and I suspect on my return I will poke holes in your case

[GuiltyLion]

Almost50 explicitly had Gamma as a townread

Alright, I see both Bingle and Gamma are on the same wagon. I trust these two to be Town (Gamma more so, Bingle is more like "I want him to be Town" kind of read)

why do you trust me to be town?

Believe it or not; your 946 was enough for me to read you. (Or maybe I am informed??)

[GuiltyLion]

not sure where I want to go yet from here

FG is still town but the CB scumflip/gamestate/fallacious-yet-passionate-FG-case makes me think A50 prob town here too

I guess I'm fine with a Lavar elimination here but like... if he's also scum then this scum team has just played tremendously badly, I'm trying to play defensively around if the disengaged scummy players remaining are actually town

[GuiltyLion]

also can I ask someone to volunteer to be the Designated Leaker for this new hood as I'm suddenly struck with FOMO

[GuiltyLion]

I still don't like anything T3 has posted and still feel the Qoobee/Gamma associatives were also bad, is anyone particularly townreading him?

[GuiltyLion]

I'm rereading Dusa, I think it's easy to write her off as a gimmick poster and I liked that the sympathized with me in 1359. Dusa, walk me through your progression on Oka?

Oka how do you feel about the fact that CB specifically asked Dusa for her read on you

I wish he had answered me on why he asked this question, it was just so random and unrelated to anything going on

@CB, who is scum?

I am reluctant to list anyone on my wagon until the game almost or has completed, but here is where my brain is going: {Dusa, UNOwen, Oka, Bell, Lavar} is my pool currently.
But to pretense this, I don't believe my wagon is full of scum, maybe 2 maximum.

I bet there's also at least one scum in this group of five, and I don't think it's Dusa/UNOwen

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: LavarManos

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

Third wagon vote is best vote.

Yes, that was a serious case of projection right there, but on the other hand, maybe that was the joke?

It is a little suspicious to me that Bell seems to be playing both sides...

Lavar what do you think about the players in the game so far?

It's interesting that Fakegod shifted his opinion of Yuri from 422 to 527 (I think this is good). I thought Fakegod was a little suspicious before because he didn't seem to be scumhunting.
I think Dannfloor is a little suspicious, but that is more of a gut read.
I also thought it was suspicious that you seemed to be playing both sides of Gamma Emerald which I mentioned in an earlier post.
I think I need to get some townreads

Given Bell town, kinda feel like Lavar may have been setting up to pin one on Bell here

Also I assume "UtR" meant "under the radar" and IMO 730 given Cupcake scum is evidence of me town

[GuiltyLion]

I'm also thinking there's not really any universe where Lavar lives through endgame so to me he makes since to vote off early enough where if his flip is town we can postmortem and use that info for further neighborhood comp on the remaining days, instead of having a hood to use a shot on him

let me know if that's stupid for some reason

[GuiltyLion]

EBWOP sense* wowza that's embarrassing lol

[GuiltyLion]

a scumflip wouldn't but if he's town it's good to know Sooner rather than Later is what I'm saying

[GuiltyLion]

yah I agree with you, I think this:

its just, we need to see because it'd be hard to do things otherwise because lavar will always just be there and everyone will agree that lavar is not townie and it feels a bit like theater to do something else and come back to what is inevitable.

is what I'm saying. scum!Lavar is good news obviously but if town!Lavar it's going to force people to widen their limpools a little bit and if that causes conflict it's better to start hashing that out while everybody can discuss instead of it being sequestered into hoods later

[GuiltyLion]

I'm opposed to an LM flips today because he seems like a habitual flake out and we'll be able to get more info and abetter read from the replacement.

he's been posting frequently enough (about once or twice per day) that he's not technically eligible for replace, it's not like Cupcake who dropped off for ~4+ days after D1. I don't think we can assume he'll flake completely unless/until it happens

[GuiltyLion]

Mobile posting for now I will have real time to play later this evening most likely but I think Titus is town. Maybe I'm tunneled/biasing but I get the sense T3 is hunting for reasons to vote somewhere that isn't Lavar.

[GuiltyLion]

Also I agree Yuri going off the grid is not a good look considering this is the point where scum is probably going to need to do some dirty work to make some town slots mis-elimmable and maybe scum has low WIM here

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: t3

[GuiltyLion]

I think it's likely there's at least one scum who was on both wagons both to try to dis-associate their slots and get into the hoods. The three players on both wagons are Dusa, Yuri, T3, and I also see them as townie in that order descending.

T3's votes on both Gamma and then CB slot both lacked a lot of conviction or clear reason why he was voting there, with Gamma he voted explicitly because he said it felt like scum didn't know what to do about Gamma, and then with CB he waited until Titus called out that CB was posting elsewhere. Both of those votes feel to me more likely to be scum hopping onto a wagon they didn't want to have to be on originally.

Yuri's votes on both wagons aren't especially stellar either but at least they're consistent with the profile of town who explicitly wants to be on every wagon that goes through. T3's reads don't even always match his votes, as Titus pointed out yesterday he joined her on CB instead of voting the viable A50 counterwagon, when he claimed to be scumreading both A50 and Titus.

[GuiltyLion]

anybody with experience with bell would kill bell because when he's town he might as well be an IC

+1 it was probably suggested by the deep scum.

Remind me how you know there's a deep scum?
OH wait a minute. That's because you would know from the scum PT.
VOTE: Titus
Scumslip.

I also just find this a ridiculous post and it's hard for me to imagine or understand a town!T3 making it. Like, is he really trying to suggest Titus is scum and she just decided to casually explain to the main thread why their team killed Bell? Like if he thinks she 'whoops!' slipped knowledge that one of the scums is widely townread and is telling the truth here, it'd also mean she was straight up speaking to us from scum perspective. I really can't see a town T3 thinking this is a bonafide scumslip, I think he's grasping at straws here to find reasons to push Titus.

[GuiltyLion]

yeah I'm happy with fakegod/dusa/bingle on all the wagons

honestly I'm not very pressed about wagon composition at this stage since I feel we're probably going to hit at least one more scum in the next three eliminations, I'm fine either being on or off this one. my only request is to be in at least one more hood for Recreational Purposes

[GuiltyLion]

I see your argument and I think it makes a fair amount of sense

I think I'm just having a hard time squaring a solid Yuri scumread because it would mean town's D1 wagon-on-scum accuracy was incredibly high, and also, if scum!T3 then what is scum!Yuri's plan here - vote all his teammates and hope that leads to a win somehow?

A Yuri red flip would almost make me want to reconsider T3 potentially. But T3's had distinct "hard to see coming from town" pushes/votes that are gonna make that a real hard scumread for me to let go of

[GuiltyLion]

quick question do we care leashing neighborhoods? please answer in your next post

@everyone

I think leashing is the right idea I just don't have especially strong opinions outside of wanting strong consensus townreads like Dusa/FG/Bingle in them, I'm fine with Titus/Dragons being in any given neighborhood too. So yes let's try to leash especially if someone like Bingle has well-reasoned opinions on who should be in/out, but I am not feeling like I need to push to influence in any particular way that doesn't roughly align with where most of the thread vibe is currently at

[GuiltyLion]

This theory debate is great but let's apply it somewhere. Who is/are the one(s) brute forcing the game?

Which types of players just let it happen as scum?

I like this question from Titus and Yuri I want you to help me understand how your overall gamestate view relates to this argument a bit more clearly. Cause you say these things:

I mean it's not a theory debate, it's a "don't be surprised once you lim through PoE pool and all scum aren't dead given that there were a very easy 2 lims on D1 and D2 on scum" debate

so again, here, why is the assumption that scum are just rolling over and which other games have they done that in?

and I agree with these points in context - it's not safe to assume scum are just doing nothing in this gamestate and there's probably at least one scum trying hard to have a shot at carrying through to endgame. I also see this as a fair self-defense of your own slot.

However, when you then say something like this:

the point is that even if there are potentially 2 more ~easy~ ones then there's going to be scum in people who are trying to look like they're trying, hence A50 or Unowen

it doesn't feel like you're really disagreeing with Oka? I don't think A50/UNOwen has enough towncred to be one of the last two players alive here so it feels like you're arguing for both these points simultaneously:

a) you shouldn't be seen as scummy, because you haven't been trying to capitalize/benefit from the easy D1/D2 scum eliminations, and it's wrong to think that scum is likely just coasting to a loss here

but also

b) T3/Lavar both scummy and last scum could be in A50/UNOwen

and I just don't think A50/UNOwen have tried all that hard either, and this b) conclusion feels a little incongruent with your points around a) in debate with Oka

Does that make sense?
Why should we give you credit for clearly not manipulating the gamestate, yet deny any of that credit to UNOwen, for example?

[GuiltyLion]

just tell me who could be the evil scum that are planning some grand strategy rn? any combination of scum, i don't see with a plan outside of lets just get to endgame.

lol I shoulda just quoted this cause it's basically the same question. I just don't think some combo of 3 out of {T3, Lavar, UNOwen, A50} is a satisfying or reasonable answer to this question if we assume there is a Coherent Strategy

[GuiltyLion]

guilty was like this is obv scum and then got busy.

One minor and probably irrelevant point of correction here is I was busy before/as Gamma obvscummed and became less busy afterwards, but the obvscumming was so obvious that I didn't need to push it much harder than Dusa already had.

I do think Dusa should get the majority of the credit for seeing scum!Gamma and then pressuring him into reactions that were so bad his scumminess became apparent to the rest of us.

there has been no resistance to like anything this game

I think the most resistance we've had was to the A50 counterwagon to Cupcake towards EOD yesterday. But on first pass it kinda felt to me like town arguing with town over a town slot, where some of us were picking up on false positives and others were defending a townread, it might be something to look at more closely if A50 comes into question again but I was the biggest pusher on it at the EOD2 and I think I was just wrong there because I was worried Cupcake might have been an easy miselim.

I think if town!A50 it's another reason to suspect Lavar, he basically just voted A50 over Cupcake and parked his vote there and fucked off while FakeGod/A50/myself argued about it

[GuiltyLion]

I was just doing a bit of rereading and the one thing that's making me hesitate here is that Bell specifically was townreading T3 and pushing back against scumreads there, which makes me wonder if he was killed in part to enable a T3 miselimination

can I get some thoughts on this, it's giving me cold feet and making me want to switch back to Lavar

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: LavarManos

[GuiltyLion]

I also trust the people pushing Lavar the most (FakeGod,DGB, Dragons? <- meant to indicate confusion about how much he wants Lavar, not confusion about the strength of my townread there) a bit more than I do some of the voters on T3 (A50, Yuri, maybe even Titus if I'm way off today).

[GuiltyLion]

right but like why Bell over Bingle or Dusa

[GuiltyLion]

it's not that Bell was driving the game in any particular direction and I have to think Dusa has proven just as if not more dangerous

[GuiltyLion]

There are 2 (3?) sinners alive still! I'm pretty sure it's 3, 2 died?!? Yeah 3! They could be 3 obviously bad people! They could be 2 obviously bad people and one person who seems good! They could be 2 people who seems good and one person who seems bad! The only thing left is all three of theme seem good, but I believe too much in northsidegal to accept that one!

Only in one of those three dimensions is it normal to say "the deep scum went to the agora to buy food"!

aaahhh this explanation makes sense to me.

I'm not 100% certain T3 actually meant this and that you're not giving him an extra charitable interpretation, but this makes sense as an explanation of why one could think it's a slip. I was only thinking from the perspective of making a claim about the existence of a deep scum at all which I don't think is a ridiculous thing to speculate. But if it's

"exactly"

one deep scum instead of

"a"

deep scum I can see why it could be a slip, so I may have misunderstood/misinterpreted him.

[GuiltyLion]

STD - scummy b/c not doing anything.

Lavar, how would you summarize the things you have done this game?

I am struggling to put myself into your shoes with this read given you yourself have not demonstrated any initiative and have only put down a single vote so far this game.

For you to be town it means one of the following must be true:

a) You understand that "doing things" is pro town and helps the rest of the players see town alignment, yet you have not been trying to do that yourself
b) You don't necessarily think town needs to "do anything", yet you hypocritically suspect STD could be scum on this basis despite it being a valid description of your own slot

which is it?

[GuiltyLion]

more votes pls also guilty idk if thats a yes or a no tbh im leaning yes but it could be a no

it's a yes but I really don't have very strong opinions on how to best leash other than looking at the wagons and making sure I have more townreads than null-to-scumreads in them. I want Bingle/Dusa to vote with the Lavar wagon here, if we wind up going with T3 today (not my first choice anymore) I'd like Yuri/A50 off of it if possible

[GuiltyLion]

I think we can get around the is-ought problem here by rephrasing the question into

"Do you think that leashing neighborhoods today will increase town's chances of winning the game"

then we're only asking an empirical question that we could reason about or find evidence to support

Of course it can and will be a huge debate still on whether we

"should"

increase town's chances of winning the game via leashing neighborhoods, but I'd theoretically be fine with policy eliminating people who say no if the evidence for leashing improving win % is strong enough. Unfortunately I suspect that we don't have such rigorous/strong evidence.

[GuiltyLion]

anyway that's just a silly thought, the real question here is why Yuri is voting T3 specifically as opposed to say Lavar

[GuiltyLion]

First of all, Dusa apparently went to a game a 8 months ago to look for scum meta of lavar when he had a completed scum game that’s like two weeks old. Second of all, LM somehow knew that this was the game that Dusa had looked at despite the other option being, as noted, two weeks old.

I think I see what you mean - if "we" in LavarManos' 2366 is referring to Dusa then that's confusing and likely a slip. However, I think Lavar's comment makes more sense in context if you interpret "we" to refer to you, Bingle, because you played with him in that game and his post was immediately after yours. I think this explanation fits better than making all the assumptions that:
1) Dusa's main

also

played in that game
2) a scum!Dusa said in the mafia PT who her real account is
3) Lavar carelessly slipped this information in the main thread.

As for Dusa picking an older scum game instead of the most recent one, I will let Dusa answer her own reasons but I disagree that's likely to mean anything. I can go into my thoughts why after she answers, but I don't want to potentially interfere with her giving an explanation.

[GuiltyLion]

I'm pretty sure Yuri is town, if he's scum I will congratulate him.

I can definitely imagine Yuri town here, but I'm not seeing this as such a strong scumgame that it'd be worthy of congratulation? Two of his teammates would have already died and he's not especially townread or cleared from it?

Kinda makes me think about this Oka post lol:

in fact it should be outrageous whenever townreads you for something silly because that means they think that lowly of your scumgame

[GuiltyLion]

anyway that's just a silly thought, the real question here is why Yuri is voting T3 specifically as opposed to say Lavar

didn't you catch the memo? lazily bussing which is somehow going to win the game

this is funny, but seriously, do you wanna switch to Lavar here?

[GuiltyLion]

god I cannot tell if lavar is checked out townie or checked out scum

but one thing is for sure he is checked out

yeah, I do think there's slight scum-indicators in Lavar's ISO (tried to make Bell look bad on "playing both sides" of Gamma in 194 - I think that could be due to advance knowledge of Gamma scumflip, awkward townread on T3 1097 and 1290 which reverses to scumread in 2367 for unclear reasons, bad scumread of Dragons in the same post).

However the bigger problem for me is that if he's town it's hard for me to speculate about who is scum taking advantage of the situation because he's such a nothing slot. With T3 I can imagine him being town and some potential scum candidates gunning to miseliminate him. With Lavar he's just in this awkward zone where nobody is townreading him but the thread vibe isn't especially championing his elimination either, and the main people who are pushing him I townread pretty solidly.

[GuiltyLion]

Second of all, LM somehow knew that this was the game that Dusa had looked at despite the other option being

My question is why he assumed that Dusa was referring to that game

I see it slightly differently - I don't think he's saying "Dusa probably read that Haunted Mansion game we played together", I interpreted it to be saying "if you [Bingle] want to look at a scumgame, remember the Haunted Mansion game we played together"

you have a point that it's maybe a weird coincidence that Dusa confirmed that particular game was the game she looked at, but I don't see why scum!Dusa wouldn't just lie or say it was a different game if she's worried Lavar is slipping that they planned in a PT to defend him via meta. Maybe I'm not still understanding but I don't see how Dusa is implicated

[GuiltyLion]

There is a chance I am wrong and it's Lavar though and the slot isn't doing anything. I'm not opposed to the yeet but I am 50/50 about whether it hits scum. I feel much better on a T3 yeet.

this is pretty much how I feel currently except flipped on the T3/Lavar slots

I was trying to assess if Yuri was more interested in voting T3 instead of Lavar, but he acquiesced pretty quickly under pressure so I'm not sure if a Yuri-Lavar associative holds up

[GuiltyLion]

Titus do you have any thoughts on my point about Bell being a main T3 defender, or Dusa's defense of T3 in 2355

[GuiltyLion]

Bingle, Dusa, FakeGod, Dragons, Oka <- People I want in neighborhood

GuiltyLion, DGB, UNOwen, Titus <- People I'm indifferent to

T3, Lavar, Yuri, A50 <- People I oppose

but I'm also not gonna raise a huge fuss over someone from the last group being in a hood if it's just one of them, I mostly just don't want like... many of them in a hood

[GuiltyLion]

I have received disappointingly few leaks from the D2 hood

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i have a low opinion of my desire to get off of t3

Save the Dragons do you have any thoughts on my point about Bell being a main T3 defender, or Dusa's defense of T3 in 2355

[GuiltyLion]

T3 literally did something i've only seen him do as scum which was call out a scumslip.

how much experience do you have with town T3?

[GuiltyLion]

I will be actively working against any attempts to leash neighbourhoods

and will continue to vote top wagon that isn’t me

isn't this effectively a leash on your vote, just only in one direction?

lmao

[GuiltyLion]

I too, struggle to comprehend what is so despicable about trying to manipulate game mechanics to our advantage and generate further potentially alignment-indicative content in the process of negotiating it

I think I would care a lot more if we hadn't limmed any scum yet and I didn't trust the general aptitude of the town at this stage. but it would still feel real dumb to get to like D9 and mistrust is everywhere and hoods are making terrible shots and then to think "oh shit we should have had some kind of plan that didn't involve meme-ing Yuri into every hood"

[GuiltyLion]

EBWOP - some kind of plan

beyond**

meme-ing Yuri into every hood

is better phrasing

[GuiltyLion]

can someone sparknotes to me what the is-ought thing is about and how it relates to neighborhoods

this is a very tenuous/amateur understanding of the topic and done cliff-notes so handwaving all nuance and oversimplifying, people feel free to shout if I'm getting this wrong or misinterpreting Hume

David Hume, famous philosophical skeptic grandmaster of poking holes in All Your Arguments to show that you are making unjustified leaps in logic whenever you try to Reason About Literally Anything, made a game changing point in the 18th century which has kicked off a lot of discussion/argument about it in the 300 years since. His claim was that we really can't logically know or prove what we "should" do (from a moral/imperative perspective), because the only evidence we have about life and the universe around us is based on what "is".

So you can make all these observations like "I saw someone suffering and it made me feel sad" but if you try to say "therefore we should alleviate suffering" then you're making a logical leap based on an inference that isn't rigorously proven (Hume disliked inferring things and inductive reasoning in general), because what are you really appealing to when you make that argument? Just a change or difference in the world as it is, but that has no moral truth or value to it. Simply because you could imagine a way to make yourself feel less sad, in no way proves this is what you ought to be doing. Basically, any time you try to say "it is morally correct to [x]" or "we ought to [y]", you're making a leap into claiming something which isn't based on empirical grounds.

You have to remember too that a lot of Hume's work is subtly (or not so subtly) digging at the Church and religious dogma, which was the widely prevailing philosophy of thought in the context of the world he lived in.

Kant was Very Shook by a lot of Hume's arguments/ideas and basically dedicated his entire life's work to trying to find a way to rebuild Deontology in the wake of Hume's attempts to destroy it.

essentially, the idea of "is-ought fallacy" in the most layman's terms is a logical error whenever people try to use evidence in the world as it is today to make claims about the way things ought to be, but it's occasionally misunderstood to be strictly talking about what literally IS true, instead of the broader point about the set of all things that could "be".

I think Yuri's joke/point was that it is a given we cannot/won't leash neighborhoods, so we cannot make any judgment on whether we "ought" to or not and therefore your question is pointless. You could also maybe interpret it as saying whether or not leashing neighborhoods has any discernible impact on the game, or town's win rate, or whatever other empirical observation you want to make (what "is"), does not give us any logical grounding to speculate about whether it's the Right Thing To Do, at least morally (what "ought" to be, eg - "SHOULD we leash neighborhoods" being unanswerable).

[GuiltyLion]

Im confused. How is it a given we can't leash neighborhoods? Why can't we make a judgment call on whether we ought to leash the neighborhood?

The goal is to win, therefore i should play to win and thus leveraging the setup for an advantage is good? Unless the argument is there is no moral reason to think that winning is good and thus no purpose in playing to win

yeah I'm completely with you that if we operate strictly from a "goal is to win" perspective then it takes the is-ought question out of the equation, that was what I was trying to joke about in my 2400. You're correct in summarizing the argument as there being no moral reason to think that winning is good.

so basically Yuri is being cheeky/funny/philosophical to dodge having to give a direct reason as to why he doesn't want to play to win. Which is basically the constant thread of this entire Oka v Yuri saga and the only thing I've gotten out of it.

At first I thought Yuri was townie for obstinately sticking to his stated intentions, but as the shtick goes on it really does make him difficult to read and denies us any associatives regarding his slot, which makes him fundamentally scummy in a way. I feel it's the only thing he's spoken at length about and I barely have a sense of his reads outside of them roughly aligning with consensus limpool of {T3, Lavar}. He also doesn't claim to townread UNOwen or A50 but I have no feeling I understand any nuances of his opinions on either slot.

[GuiltyLion]

I will be actively working against any attempts to leash neighbourhoods

and will continue to vote top wagon that isn’t me

isn't this effectively a leash on your vote, just only in one direction?

lmao

I actually kinda think this is a good point I made too about why Yuri's position is ridiculous

"You can't tell me who to vote! Therefore I'm going to vote exactly where town majority votes!"

I'm sure he'd say it's more about exercising his desire to be in the hoods, but then half the time he makes jokes/comments about us just eliminating him so he doesn't have to keep playing, so it doesn't feel like he's all that excited to use the hoods later anyways?

[GuiltyLion]

I'm mostly basing that off of some podcasts I listened to a while back and my vague recollection of a few philosophy courses I took in high school / college a decade ago so don't treat it as gospel, I probably got a lot of finer points wrong

[GuiltyLion]

@Titus

Titus do you have any thoughts on my point about Bell being a main T3 defender, or Dusa's defense of T3 in 2355

[GuiltyLion]

I mean, this is the ONLY reason I see to spare T3 at this point.

can you remind me why you think T3 is scum again

preferably backed with posts from your own ISO but you don't have to limit yourself there if it proves too hard

I know I pushed T3 for a lot of D2/D3 but I feel I now have a couple good reasons for why he might be a miselimination here (Bell NK, T3 wagon comprised of nullier slots rather than Core Townreads) and why my scumread wasn't fully grounded (re-interpretation of his 2212 as prompted by Dusa), and no one has really been responding to them.

The best points I still have against him:
-bad Qoobee/Gamma associatives
-performative question about FG quickhammer
-weak votes onto scum D1 & D2
-hunting for scum in group of players in both hoods

don't quite convince me anymore, so I'd like to hear if you have any additional reasons.

[GuiltyLion]

spicy hammer, though I can't say I'm a fan of Titus dodging my questions to her about T3

[GuiltyLion]

if Lavar flips red and venges me please don't mindlessly roll into a T3 elimination, I think T3 looks quite townie in that world

[GuiltyLion]

maaaan

I'm not convinced T3 is scum still but hard to see how the game goes on with him alive for much longer and I don't know if I'd even want that

I could do Yuri today I think, his vote hopping is extra bad if neither Lavar or T3 is scum

VOTE: Yuri

[GuiltyLion]

T3 just felt more like the desired miselimination than Lavar did and still feels that way, my first gut take on seeing that wagon go through + flip is we were in competing town wagons for most of D3 and scum didn't need to care or go hard one way or the other

Bingle hammering and not waiting to hear from Dusa when he said that's what he was waiting for should also be explained, but I am expecting him to give an explanation

[GuiltyLion]

If T3 is scum widely suspected, they'd want him dead before the venge stopped.

hmmm I hadn't fully considered this - does the venge stop? I was under impression scum could venge even in the second phase, the role PM seems to suggest it's any time after being eliminated.

but if you are thinking T3 scum and they want to bus before we go into hood mode, who are the buddies pushing him?

[GuiltyLion]

I was doing just that and a bit more when I noticed the game title had changed to Day 4. I checked and saw Lavar was executed still, so I decided to not post any explanations. Bad Town is bad Town and I really hate to be ignored and/or asked about things I've already explained. (I didn't FULLY explain T3 which is why I was willing to respond to your initial question at the time, but with the Lavar execution going through I don't think anyone listens to me, and you came into D4 with the same stance of defending T3, so what's the point?

you know what this is fair

how about a different question - if I sheep onto T3 and he flips town, do you have any guesses/thoughts on what we should do after that?

[GuiltyLion]

eh you know part of me wants to stop worrying about if T3's a miselimination since Dusa and I seem to be the only ones really concerned about it and I don't think I'm going to feel strongly enough about a scumread elsewhere at this state to champion yet another wagon away from him

I'm willing to take more of a backseat here and even stay out of the hood if we go T3

[GuiltyLion]

don't be facetious, it's not a good look on you

there was a point there though, why are you whining so much about the idea of leashing neighborhoods if you're not exercising any agency with your vote anyways

[GuiltyLion]

I'm inclined to think this thought process from Titus is genuine and it's helping with doubts I had about her

[GuiltyLion]

eh I forgot you did cover that on D2 Yuri, that's fine

I guess really my complaint is that it doesn't feel like you're caring about an outside player's perspective that inserting yourself into every hood is not visibly pro-town when we don't know your alignment

it's not necessarily anti-town if you ARE town, but you're basically unilaterally denying spots in neighborhoods or deciding votes on wagons because of how

you

want to experience the game (and the information those things can provide when other players do them, I would maintain that jumping onto any wagon that becomes the lead does still deny information about your slot and others - though fair point that you haven't townread any major wagon so far)

[GuiltyLion]

how was that not evident bingle, nsg literally modelled this off as vengeful mafia lmfao

Start at 40% EV. Add two massively scumsided mechanics. Expect playable game. What?

perhaps I'm mistaken, but I believe I am playing this game

[GuiltyLion]

UNVOTE:

[GuiltyLion]

Oka what are your thoughts if any on Titus also not knowing it

[GuiltyLion]

But do you think if she's scum she would have already figured out they can venge in hood phase? Is there any world where she's scum and didn't know that?

[GuiltyLion]

Ok so let's say T3 is scum and they want to bus him. T3 + A50 + Dragons? Is Dragons my blind spot here?

I still can't really wrap my head around why Bell was killed if T3 scum, but sometimes Scum work in Mysterious Ways

[GuiltyLion]

I think my current reads are around here:

S - Dusa, FakeGod, Titus
A - Bingle, Oka
B - DGB, UNOwen, Yuri
C - Dragons
D - A50, T3

but I feel this doesn't quite fit together neatly and so there's likely to be a scum in the SAB tiers somewhere

[GuiltyLion]

lol T3 has posted elsewhere and not here since Lavar flip, which he already admitted he does as scum

[GuiltyLion]

my input is, I don't like having both A50/Dragons in this hood but my hunch/hope would be that we kill one of them next on a T3 redflip

I'd like if Oka is in the hood, he hasn't been in either of the previous two hoods.

As for another thought, I'm remembering this comment:

@CB, who is scum?

I am reluctant to list anyone on my wagon until the game almost or has completed, but here is where my brain is going: {Dusa, UNOwen, Oka, Bell, Lavar} is my pool currently.
But to pretense this, I don't believe my wagon is full of scum, maybe 2 maximum.

At the time, the Cupcake wagon was:
{Bingle, FakeGod, DrippingGoofball, Dannflor, Almost50, Gamma}

Do we think CB named five townies none of whom voting him in his scumpool while ignoring his wagon with a least one confscum (Gamma), potentially at least another?

[GuiltyLion]

I thought you were p hard TRing STD, GL?

my current working theory is if T3 scum, scum were opting to bus him yesterday/today rather than jump on a Lavar miselimination

I didn't like this reasoning STD gave for scumreading T3

i have a low opinion of my desire to get off of t3

Save the Dragons do you have any thoughts on my point about Bell being a main T3 defender, or Dusa's defense of T3 in 2355

i have a low opinion of my desire to get off of t3

Save the Dragons do you have any thoughts on my point about Bell being a main T3 defender, or Dusa's defense of T3 in 2355

T3 literally did something i've only seen him do as scum which was call out a scumslip. i don't really care that bell defended him and i can barely read that post by dusa.

T3 literally did something i've only seen him do as scum which was call out a scumslip.

how much experience do you have with town T3?

some, but probably not enough

so my gutfeel is STD might be scumbuddies here w/ T3 rather than town genuinely sussing him out. I also think some of the D1 associative stuff I gave him towncred for in relation to Gamma doesn't hold up quite as well under scrutiny knowing Cupcake was also scum, it was a bit of a lazy stale townread on my part and also partly driven due to my feeling Lavar was likely scum over T3.

[GuiltyLion]

if T3 is town though I'm gonna just need to do a hard reset

[GuiltyLion]

Can the people who are unsure of/scumreading Titus (STD, Bingle) give a read on this sequence:

@Titus

Titus do you have any thoughts on my point about Bell being a main T3 defender, or Dusa's defense of T3 in 2355

I don't think Bell was shot for his read. I don't see scum shooting to protect anyone here unless they were deep scum. If T3 is scum widely suspected, they'd want him dead before the venge stopped. Killing Bell doesn't help that agenda.

Second, Dusa's tone makes her hard to read (not alignment wise just understanding). What I think she's saying is that because everyone finds it scummy, it's not scummy at all. I'd counter that with the D1 Gamma elimination which Dusa started.

If T3 is scum widely suspected, they'd want him dead before the venge stopped.

hmmm I hadn't fully considered this - does the venge stop? I was under impression scum could venge even in the second phase, the role PM seems to suggest it's any time after being eliminated.

but if you are thinking T3 scum and they want to bus before we go into hood mode, who are the buddies pushing him?

I think we should resolve whether scum get a venge or not after day 5 because that might change my analysis of how they play. They would know this.

@Mod: Do scum who are shot in the neighborhood phase get a venge kill?

hmmm I hadn't fully considered this - does the venge stop? I was under impression scum could venge even in the second phase, the role PM seems to suggest it's any time after being eliminated

Being shot =/= being eliminated.

@Mod: Do scum who are shot in the neighborhood phase get a venge kill?

Yes.

Oh then I've been reading this wrong. Full reset after work.

This strikes me as a genuine townslip. I don't believe Titus would be posting the way she did if she knew scum venges lasted into the second phase of the game, and I think if she were scum she would have figured that information out already from scheming with buddies in the mafia PT. Therefore I think she is town, and I feel fairly confident about this.

[GuiltyLion]

I think the second portion is only accurate if her scumbuddies knew that phase two continued with venges, which I think is a flawed assumption, given, you know, me not knowing that

hmm, I see what you're saying but I still feel it's more likely a team of at least 4 other players (given Titus replaced in near end of D1) would have had discussion around strategies and how they were aiming to play in both phases, and the question about venge in the second phase would have come up at some point.

I'm not thinking on the basis of who in this game was aware or certain that the venge lasted into second phase - and maybe it serves to also be a townslip for your slot as well - but rather just that I expect scum would have resolved that question if they had it. so I guess the way this reasoning doesn't work is if all the scum were convinced they didn't have venges into second phase, but I don't feel like that's the more reasonable/likely scenario based on the role PMs and what I would be talking and thinking about if I were scum.

[GuiltyLion]

No. With two scumpals down, you don't bus.

I dunno, I think if T3 is scum here he's still likely dead weight and with 2 scums remaining after that they need as much towncred as they can get.

That said, STD isn't really playing for towncred on a T3 flip so I don't know if he really fits that angle

[GuiltyLion]

also, scum are gonna want to be influencing as many hoods as possible, so choosing not to bus your partner if they're widely suspected by town is a risky proposition

[GuiltyLion]

I townread Oka for never insisting on putting himself on wagon nor taking opportunities to do so

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: T3

I've been a bit busy but I'll find some time to play at some point later today

I'm not like especially especially confident T3 flips scum but I wouldn't be surprised if he does and it doesn't feel like other options are viable, and I think it'd be worse in either world of town/scum!T3 if we eliminated elsewhere and they flipped town

[GuiltyLion]

Here's a scattered mess of thoughts rn:

I will have to reread Dusa, the thing with her is her effort has slightly dropped off and I thought if town she would be likely to be killed in the first few shots after how hard she pushed for Gamma, however there's been a few times I've really felt mindmeld with her and I don't remember her vote history being as bad as A50 describes it. I also feel like multiple scum (Gamma, T3 I think?) riffed on her gimmick as being hard to read which maybe could be theater but is kind of a weird interaction with a partner regardless

I'm most sure of FakeGod town, and FG said he was sure of DGB town, so I'm willing to sheep his reasoning and read there. I also feel my townslip read on Titus is accurate. That's probably my three most solid townreads, I also still think Bingle is more likely town than not.

Oka is kind of a weird kill as he wasn't in most hoods? I thought scum would try to kill to try to get more hood parity there, might suggest both scum in the D1 hood.

In the hood yesterday Yuri posted early that he thought T3 was trying to intentionally WIFOM his slot by pushing it so hard, and then T3 proceeded to continue to do exactly that throughout the day. It was almost to the degree where I'm wondering if it was in fact discussed and planned between Yuri/T3, but the whole thing is WIFOMy.

UNOwen I also need to reread, I feel like he's had some good thoughts but they're just so few and far between and I don't get the sense he's actually tried to direct the game in one direction or another at all, could definitely be a scum treading water

[GuiltyLion]

I have no idea if it's correct to lim Yuri here or not from a hood control perspective. On one hand if he's scum he took the most obvious and visible play to try to get as much influence/power to the scum team as possible - which on the surface is always going to get him suspected and potentially voted out. But on the other hand, if he's town, it's now extremely beneficial to scum to get rid of him and they are likely going to be pushing / manipulating the thread that way.

I still kinda gut feel he hasn't done anything that's strongly indicated town alignment to me, but it is easy for me to imagine his play being town

Bingle can you help with this point in particular if you feel inclined? I might take a crack at the math later myself but certainly not tonight as I'm not in a State of Mind for it

[GuiltyLion]

I've done a proper catch up during this extended night phase (remember that I hadn't read anything before the point I replaced in? Now I did)

One thing I'm stuck on

You were going through FakeGods ISO post by post and casing him

So did you just like... decide to do that without having read the game properly? Or are you lying to us now about not having read?

The thing is just if this is scum it's so brazen??

[GuiltyLion]

You do realise,r that reading someone's ISO means yo read their posts in ISOLATION right?

yes, and being fair to you I think everything you were commenting on didn't strictly need to be interpreted in context, but it still just feels kinda skeevy to me to be pulling posts/quotes from a section of a game you haven't read and finding reasons to call stuff scum-motivated when you didn't even have the sense of gamestate or context of the thread to help understand when/why those posts were made.

it's probably not indicative I think it's more just our playsyles than anything and I'm glad you think FG's town now I just wish you'd read and felt that way earlier and it might have made things easier for all of us

[GuiltyLion]

I'm most sure of FakeGod town, and FG said he was sure of DGB town, so I'm willing to sheep his reasoning and read there.

DGB is good because FakeGod says so!

Game state suggests that town is providing cover to some extent for at least one of the scum. What about FakeGod's DGB read makes it likely to be accurate?

I think this is a pretty compelling reason if FakeGod is town:

DGB wouldn't call A50's case on me good to get me riled up and post content, resulting in town being able to read A50 as town, unless she's town.

especially if they have history together, which I am assuming they do

Further - this wouldn't be the first time I have townread/trusted someone who then expresses that they have solid to good reasons to trust another player, which leads me to give credence to their read. I feel like that's not a strange thing to do in a mafia game, it's part of town blocking. Why are you asking us about these DGB/FG reads specifically? Do you scumread either of them, or are you more skeptical of Dusa/myself?

[GuiltyLion]

@GuiltyLion RE: Townblocking

I feel we have reached a point where everyone in the game townreads someone who townreads their suspect, which makes this harder.

Ex: I townread Brian and scumread Charlie. Brian townreads Charlie.

Now what?

I understand this but I asked those questions of UNOwen because I didn't have any sense of the thought process or motivation behind his posting.

I think if a townie townreads Brian and scumreads Charlie, that townie generally should and will make it clear that they are scumreading Charlie and try to either understand Brian's POV or convince Brian why they think he is wrong about Charlie.

However, I did not have any sense from UNOwen whether he scumreads DGB and why. I also had no sense whether he was trying to simply understand or if he was actually pushing us to reconsider our reads. It felt like he was putting the onus on me to justify why DGB should be townread, rather than taking the initiative to explain why it should be scumread.

To me that looks like he could be trying to make DGB more viable as an elimination by making players like myself or Dusa less sure of our reads, or other players less sure of our reasoning for town!DGB, rather than communicate his own reads or try to convince us of anything. It feels scummy and passively manipulative

[GuiltyLion]

Bingle can you help with this point in particular if you feel inclined?

I'm... not entirely sure what you're asking for here?

Yuri as town is a large priority miselim from a scum PoV. Yuri as scum is in a good position neighborhood wise. I don't think either of these points are a reason to eliminate or avoid eliminating Yuri.

Yeah this last sentence was basically what I was asking you, I was trying to think about whether mathematically there's a good argument to save/eliminate Yuri here without knowing his alignment, but when I started trying to reason further about it I realized it was a silly thought because if he's scum we always need to eliminate him regardless of hood parity concerns and so it should come down to our reads regardless.

[GuiltyLion]

I think UNOwen is my vote right now. I'm not really understanding where the Dusa suspicion is coming from - it feels like A50's main point/argument (Dusa switching from A50 to Cupcake on D2 because scum gave up on the A50 miselim) is assuming scum!Dusa first and then explaining the narrative where her play makes makes sense coming from scum. Which is certainly possible, but doesn't feel especially more likely than worlds where she is town.

UNOwen has been really low activity, especially as the game has gone on, and most of his ISO and play is asking questions towards people rather than advancing his own reads or pushes. What I'm missing from that slot is any sense of initiative, I feel his latest post was a bunch of townreads but then ambiguous/waffley conclusions about his POE suspect pool, and the question he asked me about DGB doesn't feel all that important or indicative either:

What did you make of DGB's posts during day 4? It had clearly identified me as a suspect and somehow thinks I'm a "deepwolf". But there wasn't an attempt to start a wagon on me, despite having had T3 as a weak town read (? at least that's the impression I got). The T3 execution was inevitable but it looks weird to me not to put up a fight if you think you've got a better target.

I don't see why there's an expectation/assumption that DGB should have put up a fight for a different target. I felt similar feelings, T3 could be scum but I had doubts, I didn't feel much more strongly about other slots elsewhere and enough people were pushing/voting T3 that I doubted he was much longer for this world, so I just went with it. It feels easy to imagine reasons why town wouldn't push a vanity deepwolf read yesterday, so I don't vibe with the implication here

[GuiltyLion]

3 out of 4 executions have been on scum, how are you seeing lack of initiative fitting in as scum behaviour?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your question here, but I feel like 3/4 executions on scum

should

indicate that town is generally the more active ones driving the game and correctly blocking/working together? My assumption is that scum would not want so many of theirs to go down this early and so they haven't had control deciding most of the eliminations, therefore I want to press more closely on slots that haven't steered much. I feel if both the remaining scums were influential voices, we would have had at least one more miselimination.

As for the rest of your post, that's fair. I keep having this dynamic with you where you say something that sounds off to me, I push on it, then your subsequent explanation does make more sense / is easier to see from town mindset. I think I'm struggling a bit sorting you or feeling good about your slot because it still feels like you have been primarily talking with me and I don't remember a lot of instances of back and forth or engagement between you and other players.

[GuiltyLion]

idk team my scumdar is just not giving me any strong signals right now

part of me wants to focus a bit more closely on the Oka kill. He was only in the D1 hood, that is not a great use of venge if scum is trying to get closer to hood parity across the board unless they think they can get enough influence in the D1 hood to drive a useful kill in the later hoods.

The D1 hood right now is:

Dusa
DrippingGoofball
GuiltyLion
Save The Dragons
Yuri Gagarin
FakeGod

Do we think there are two scum in there currently? If scum killed Oka to cause WIFOM around a town!Yuri slot, who is trying to take advantage of that to push a Yuri miselimination right now - it seems only A50 has jumped on that.

[GuiltyLion]

I'm bad, but that's not why!!!!!!

?????

actually am I crazy for thinking this post likely comes from town

I think if scum!UNOwen and town!Dusa he'd know for sure Dusa is being weird/trolling and he wouldn't immediately act so confused about it

but maybe I'm desperate to latch onto something indicative from UNOwen

[GuiltyLion]

I'm not really townreading STD but that's a big reason why I'm hesitant on scumreading him, yea - especially knowing that I'm town, I don't see why scum would be voting him as opposed to voting Yuri or my slot at that stage

also his lone post with Titus vote is failing to do anything today if he's scum? Why is that the only thing he posts, how does that help him long term

I do think if UNOwen conclusively town, that VC looks pretty bad for Yuri

[GuiltyLion]

Yuri Gagarin (6): Bell, OkaPoka, GuiltyLion, UNOwen, HypoTitus, Dusa
Not_Cupcake (5): Bingle, FakeGod, DrippingGoofball, Dannflor, AlmostSolo
GuiltyLion (2): Yuri Gagarin, Save The Dragons
Save The Dragons (1): Gamma Emerald
Not Voting (3): Not_Cupcake, LavarManos, TQoobee3

I also wanna challenge A50 on the Yuri/Dusa theory here - why would Dusa vote Yuri at this juncture when he is clearly the more competent (or at least engaged) teammate than Cupcake

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: Yuri Gagarin

[GuiltyLion]

Can we talk about this VC

Votecount 1.32

Target	Wagon
Yuri Gagarin (6)	Bell (502), OkaPoka (758), GuiltyLion (773), UNOwen (811), Titus (877), Dusa (1075)
Cupcake Butterfly (5)	Bingle (976), FakeGod (981), DrippingGoofball (983), Dannflor (996), Almost50 (1013)
GuiltyLion (2)	Yuri Gagarin (805), Save The Dragons (880)
Save The Dragons (1)	Gamma Emerald (794)
Not Voting (3)	Cupcake Butterfly , LavarManos , T3 (1070)

With 17 alive, it takes 9 to eliminate. The Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2021-06-25 19:26:59).

If Yuri is town, what on earth were the three flipped scum doing here? Cupcake was posting in thread and choosing not to vote. T3 replaced in and unvoted his predecessor's STD vote, then didn't vote for several posts/pages. Gamma votes Cupcake shortly after this, and does so in such a scummy fashion that he becomes the D1 lim instead.

Why would scum!Gamma elect to vote his buddy here instead of voting literally anywhere else - he had given a TR on Yuri so I'm assuming regardless of Yuri's alignment he didn't want to flip flop on that by voting him, but why specifically push the counterwagon on his buddy instead of voting some other townie and seeing if Yuri could passively go through?

Gamma also soft defended Yuri as he was picking up votes:

Bell/UNOwen why are you voting Yuri rn?

okay I didn't mind Oka's vote but it feels like every single vote after that on Yuri has just been sheeping that reason which I don't really think is good enough

but that's probably because I'm also on the side of holy hell stop the mech talk for a bit

but in 5 additional votes on Yuri I haven't seen one new reason that I recall

Valid take

and then never mentioned him again.

Cupcake gave a long rambly townread on Yuri, but notably concluded his 'analysis' by still suggesting Yuri could be scum being avoided by his scum buddies

My first impression of Yuri was uncertainty because the starting of his posts focused largely on his interaction with you, Bingle, as well as opposition to mechanical discussion (in posts where he dismisses Oka's interjection and mechtalk to acquire a read). He doesn't break this until 545, when he shifts attention to GuiltyLion, Hypo, and Solo. Any feeling of an agenda begins to dissipate because there's no clear point of discussion that Yuri is basing his interactions around, which rings as likelier town since there's no set method to his posts. I liked the vote against Dannflor because that slot was vocal and Yuri's vote was the first against him, which felt both natural and uninhibited. I don't detect any content involving Dragons even though he was the largest wagon at the time, so there's little context to question whether Dann was meant to be a counterwagon. The aversion to being pocketed in 802 is something I don't think concerns scum in most situations, scum tends to work off players that they have some form of influence on, and Yuri both opposes this interaction and prevents it from someone else he's stated to have a hard time reading. I don't know his history on the site or with you, so I can't speak to his sincerity on how he perceives your slot. Part of me is weary about where your townread on him comes from, since it's not clear what you think about them beyond that "they're probably town."

The two of you don't feel TvS, and because this gamestate is a bit hard to find a consistent pace, and there's confirmed town among all the wagons so far numerically - I'm good with leaning into my assessment of town for at least this dayphase. Also because I've skimmed and noted that the largest factor in Yuri continuing discussion about his views of your slot and mechtalk are through inquiry from Dannflor and OkaPoka.

Since this translates to the gamestate having wagons bullseye-ing town, I'm losing trust in the votes on the current wagons.

And me being a counterwagon could imply two things I see right now:

1.

Scum are deflecting from a Yuri wagon, either to whiteknight a suspected town for credit or to protect a scumbuddy.

2.

I'm an easy vote for scum to jump onto since everybody generally scumreads me for two universally noted reasons: I have not committed to a scumread openly, and I have had inconsistent activity.

if Yuri is town there's almost certainly at least one scum if not both in {GL, UNOwen, Titus, Dusa}, yet he's been constantly suspecting A50 - who was voting on the scum counterwagon to his own slot? Why is Yuri looking there and not at people voting him when his wagon was largest?

[GuiltyLion]

Also notably, for someone who has spent a lot of time saying he wants to be in every hood, Yuri left his vote on me (despite being around and calling Gamma scum in 1285:

Guess I should say something that counts as content actually, err

Bell is town

Gamma is scum

Cool game

and didn't move until Gamma was fully inevitable:

Votecount 1.33

Target	Wagon
Cupcake Butterfly (4)	Bingle (976), FakeGod (981), Almost50 (1013), Gamma Emerald (1123)
Yuri Gagarin (4)	Bell (502), OkaPoka (758), UNOwen (811), Titus (877)
Gamma Emerald (4)	Dusa (1132), Dannflor (1152), DrippingGoofball (1154), GuiltyLion (1165)
GuiltyLion (2)	Yuri Gagarin (805), Save The Dragons (880)
Not Voting (3)	Cupcake Butterfly, LavarManos, T3 (1070)

With 17 alive, it takes 9 to eliminate. The Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2021-06-25 19:26:59).

Votecount 1.35

Target	Wagon
Gamma Emerald (7)	Dusa (1132), Dannflor (1152), DrippingGoofball (1154), GuiltyLion (1165), Save The Dragons (1188), OkaPoka (1230), T3 (1239)
Cupcake Butterfly (4)	Bingle (976), FakeGod (981), Almost50 (1013), Gamma Emerald (1123)
Yuri Gagarin (2)	UNOwen (811), Titus (877)
GuiltyLion (1)	Yuri Gagarin (805)
Not Voting (3)	Cupcake Butterfly, LavarManos, Bell (1241)

With 17 alive, it takes 9 to eliminate. The Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2021-06-25 19:26:59).

Votecount 1.37

Target	Wagon
Gamma Emerald (8)	Dusa (1132), Dannflor (1152), DrippingGoofball (1154), GuiltyLion (1165), Save The Dragons (1188), OkaPoka (1230), T3 (1239), Yuri Gagarin (1324)
Cupcake Butterfly (4)	Bingle (976), FakeGod (981), Almost50 (1013), Gamma Emerald (1123)
Yuri Gagarin (2)	UNOwen (811), Titus (877)
Not Voting (3)	Cupcake Butterfly, LavarManos, Bell (1241)

With 17 alive, it takes 9 to eliminate. The Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2021-06-25 19:26:59).

[GuiltyLion]

I think there is one scum in Yuri/Uno. They might both be town, but they're not S/S. I also don't think Yuri is scum with STD given that one of the two committing to the bus on GE and the other sticking to the vanity wagon is weird optics even past the clumping of scum votes. Technically, FG/Yuri could be S/S given the defenses from FG, but I really do think Gamma spewed FG town here. Titus/Yuri and A50/Yuri are both hilarious to me. I don't think GL cases Yuri right now if they're partners. GL is already probably capable of endgaming alone, he doesn't need to do that. DGB could be scum with Yuri, as could Dusa. I imagine I'm probably a pretty likely Yuri teammate from an external viewpoint, but I also think I'm pretty obvtown here.

That leaves two potential partners for Yuri scum FMPOV. Thoughts?

I'm in full agreement with everything here - I am thinking Yuri redflip means remaining scum is either in DGB/Dusa, and Yuri greenflip means we should go for UNOwen and/or A50.