Mafia Invictus Redux [Game Over]

[Rhyme and Reason]

To post perchance to hunt, to find the scum
A challenge hard and harder still for we
A post restriction have — we must of old
Out write our words — ten beats the line no more
No less, a pattern of da-dun da-dun
How Shakespeare wrote: the old pentameter

VOTE: datisi
Old friend, old foe, I greet thee here with love
~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

To post perchance to hunt, to find the scum
A challenge hard and harder still for we
A post restriction have — we must of old
Out write our words — ten beats the line no more
No less, a pattern of da-dun da-dun
How Shakespeare wrote: the old pentameter

VOTE: datisi
Old friend, old foe, I greet thee here with love
~Rhyme

You're not going to do this the whole game are you?

Dear friend, to break this law would bring
Untimely doom upon our heads. We must
Upkeep our way to speak, until such point
that Liberty be left to us by grace
~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

am i bad at english or is this line missing a beat?

So do you have to write in pentameter or iambic pentameter?

Also, do you get leeway for goofs? Seems very easy to mess up.

The latter; and in fact he did mess up.
But luckily we needn't be exact--
The point is just that there's an effort made.

I'd put you slightly town for 31,
And maybe also Bell for messing up
the count of posts that we're allowed each day.

vp it feels like you're using a lot of your limited posts on things that are unrelated to alignment or moving the game forward

Is that the case? If there's a real PR,
then understanding it is pretty fair.
And if you think it's obviously fake
Then shouldn't you be asking VP why
He doesn't feel the same in that regard?

If Bell is scum, I doubt with VPB,
Or Lavar, since they clearly knew the count
of posts that we're allowed to make per day.

its literally in the setup post as an example that there won't be an Iambic-Pentameter Post Restricted role. that's clearly why he's doing it lol. sorry to ruin the joke but stop wasting posts speculating on this

The rules are more complex than Fire claims,
Since actually this role could be allowed
because there's one that disregards the rules.

So Fire, did you skip that, or assume
The mod would not use that specific slot
On what they said explicitly was banned?

I'm not sure I have actual thoughts on Kovu dropping a reads wall on page 4 but I admire the spirit. Just don't wear yourself out, kid.

I feel the opposite, for what it's worth.
There's almost nothing you can base them on
So they're just making things up, pretty much.
It's gonna make me want to doubt their reads
For probably a large chunk of the game.

And one more thing-- it is a holiday
This weekend, and unluckily for us
We both have plans, so don't expect a lot
Till Monday at the latest, I would say.
Not sure about Menalque but I will be
around tomorrow to engage with stuff.

-Reason

[Rhyme and Reason]

Exactly one role may have abilities that exceed this scope and violate the above guidelines.

He didn't mention this, which was my point.
Were you aware that this was in the rules?

-Reason

[Rhyme and Reason]

So is there nothing in their readslist that you agree with at all then?

Rereading it, that's pretty much the case.
It's mostly just "this person did this thing"
and then a read that doesn't quite relate
Like some is based on meta, which I get
But I don't think it's better than by chance.

i have a strong desire to kill the two people who wrote reads lists on page 6 and below and chose to include me on them with 0 posts.

Because you think they're scum, or just for spite?
It's hard for me to see how that's AI
And like Datisi said, it can make sense.

Yall talk way too much lol and they're giant posts... I told myself I was tryharding, and only giving 125 solid posts, but like, I can't stand reading all of them, ok um

If you don't want to read, don't join a large.

Kovu has a tendency to be self-contradictory and erratic a lot in play. It can be a lot to try to follow sometimes. Give them a few days to see what they do/vote/etc and judge from there.

Or better yet, just wait till they are venged

(Or copped, I guess, I think they're hard to read.)

-Reason

[Rhyme and Reason]

I have not read the game entire, yet it
Is thought by me — the wagon Bell attracts
Quite good may be. I cast our vote for him;
He has not here his normal tone he seems
To me to lack conviction that, when town
He has achieved in role PM, he with
Swift, easy facility presents in game


VOTE: Bell

My friend still stays with me in fair Madrid
No posts shall here forthcome until the morn
~Reason

[Rhyme and Reason]

I have returned, but I can't read tonight.
Tomorrow I should have some thoughts for y'all.
As always I will ask for any things
That people think that I should focus on.
(And just as always, no one will oblige.)

-Reason

[Rhyme and Reason]

The basic logic, as I see it, is Marci voted datisi, got pushed as to why and then came up with post hoc reasoning that doesn't make a lot of logical sense.

It looks like they weren't pushed before they gave
The major reason (him ignoring votes).
The push came only after, then they said
that's not the first real reason that they had.
Before this post, I don't believe they said
what that first reason was. I guess they should.

Andante thinks she is the center of all thought, which is maybe +town for her

I think that she can be like that as scum,
but this specific thing is based upon
a townie POV, so I agree.

That would be a legit waste of a cop shot.

We'll cop you then, so we can sheep your read (:

I’m getting a lot of townie vibes from the general activity of the game if that makes any sense?

It does, and it is almost always wrong.
I've done this, trust me. Usually it means
that you are more inclined to call things town
so people who post more, get townread more.

"Let's kill the lurkers" means that something's wrong--
It's not to say that lurking isn't bad,
But just that active scum can safely hide
And no one wants to try and hunt them out.
The proper answer is to try and force
The lurking ones to say some AI things
So you can read them better than before.

~Reason

In case Madrid was not sufficient hint,
Menalque forgot his tag and signed as mine.
(In modern slang, impostor looking sus?)

I like how Bell responds to getting votes
on page 13. It feels like what I'd do.

that was a pretty bad post.

The latest post? It seems okay to me...
I also was annoyed by Kovu's gripes.
Although it's hard to tell from looking back
It seemed like stuff was going on, and that
She got annoyed it wasn't what she wants.

why do you need to know what bells pr is enchant -.-

Well it's a closed theme game, it's likely that
each player has some power of their own,
But many aren't AI, so I would say
Some comment should be made about the strength.
Though asking for a fullclaim is too much.

I'm not yet sure if I agree with Luke
In their big case that Val is likely scum,
But definitely, it's a well-made post
And Luke is towny for it, I would say.

How do you read Datisi?

That post was asking, if that wasn't clear.

How do you read Datisi?

Uh, pretty badly, often how it goes.
I think I mostly need to wait until
He has a moment where he shows his thoughts
A little more in real-time and unplanned
It's hard; I've been scum versus him a lot
And fake a townread often just like this,
So I don't know how much of it is real
But I believe he's best read in this way.

uhh I think I've read everything, SS going "I'll ask questions and yall will ignore" like what? you haven't asked a single question this game or even done anything.

It's how it goes in every game I play.
I go on V/LA; when I return
I get accused of lurking, and I ask
What people want to hear from me, and then...
nobody ever answers. Hence that line.

-Reason

[Rhyme and Reason]

okay, screw this. I liked the idea of the gimmick because it would force us to think before posting but given our dual V/LA's it has just made things really hard and I need to actually be able to post stuff (and there's no way we hit the post cap anyway).

RR's thoughts are... fine. doesn't really have a lot to take away from it, actually, a decent amount feels like talking just to talk which is weird for a post that should be giving thoughts

idk if I've played with you before but this is kinda my thing. I do not post with a specific goal in mind, I give my honest thoughts even if they're not conclusive or particularly productive. Once again I must underscore that I am happy to look into any particular questions people want me to check out, I think this is helpful for both parties, but it's way too rarely done in my mind.

Bell is so scum this game guys I've never seen him play as garbage as this as town

Cakez meta tells me he and Bell are both town

in seriousness I think this confidence is generally +town for Cakez, I will leave reading Bell to those who have more recent experience with him.

give something spicier cakez!!

how exactly do you want him to go about doing this?

This post screams scum claim to me, that vote on RR with 0 explanation, 0 acknowledgement. 0 attempt to talk to RR, that vote is SO BAD

idk it seems like a pretty bog-standard lurker vote to me, do you not see townies doing that? I feel like I see it pretty frequently.

What are your reads looking like?
Who's Scum/Who are you fine yeeting?
Who are you thinking is town?

Well I have VP, Luke, Cakez as town for misc stuff that's in my ISO. Dunn has said some stuff I liked but I think that's just because I like Dunn.
Will have to touch base with Mena on Bell, I'm not sure if his vote was out of a scumread or just a desire for wagons. He's been so busy we haven't been able to talk yet.
You feel like scum-you but I don't think that's necessarily incompatible with town-you? I don't think I can really read you anyway.
I like the idea of sheeping Luke on Val. I don't like the marci wagon, if they're town I doubt they shake the wagon or successfully spark a counterwagon and I doubt their flip provides any info at all.

Feels like scum would've taken advantage of it by then if RR was town.

Taken advantage how? If scum expect the posting gimmick to continue they would want to leave us alive since it's going to be harder for us to engage and cooperate with other townies.
Besides, what exactly would you expect? We're a lurker slot, we don't really have any content to call scum, so it would have to just be a generic "vote us and say we should kill lurkers". That's not always what scum want to do, some people have metas that doesn't allow them to do that, there's also just a lot of people in the game.

@RR why is your vote still there?

Because Mena's been busy with his friend and I don't do vote movements often. In a hydra I usually just default to letting my partner control it for the first few days.

Though I'm curious; what changed between then and the vote in 316? (Feel free to answer this, RR)

Different heads. Mena signed 316 wrong.

I think Gorilla was referring to VPB's most recent post, not the most recent post overall.

yes, that's also what I was referring to.

-Reason

[Rhyme and Reason]

ok, fair enough. i see you haven't really given any thoughts on lavar, can you take a look there and let me know what you think of them so far?

I like 625, it seems like pretty deep and non-agenda-motivated reasoning. Hard to get a bead on anything else, I tried to read into the string of posts where they claimed nobody voted tako and then made an awkward joke in response to Meuh pointing out that she did, but I can't really think of why that would be AI one way or the other.

-Reason

[Rhyme and Reason]

Why is LLD on this list and not RR?

Why would we be on the list? Before this post basically nobody had called us town.

This bit is something I would see myself post as scum tbh

I can go find examples of me saying similar stuff as town if you'd like (but only if it would help, it's time-consuming). Or we can just ask the many other people in the game who are familiar with me if it's AI.

I very much want to see a counterwagon to marci for reasons I already laid out, so even though I just got town vibes on Lavar I think it's proper to VOTE: Lavar

I haven't heard from Mena yet but I would expect him to agree with me.

-Reason

[Rhyme and Reason]

There is veru much wrong with that post, but I can't help but seeing that that clearly comes from town andante.

Disagree, that seems well within her scum wheelhouse.

I don't mean to come off as a prick, but if I'm going to have to make a read on this one way or another, someone who reckons they know how is going to have to tell me how I can possibly start to try and distinguish an actual spaff out everything, stream-of-consciousness not care if it passes the sniff test style of play from someone merely replicating it, because I don't trust that I have the skills myself to even try.

Meh, there are plenty of other ways to sort someone besides reading them, especially in a game full of vengekills.

This is possibly the most bonkers take I have ever seen.

Really? It seems pretty reasonable to me. Awkward distancing does happen and sometimes it goes wrong.

Lavar feels like a scum driven counter wagon y'all I have seen no signs this dude is scum

What makes you think it's scum-driven, rather than misguided-town-driven?

I'm baffled that nobody seems to think how fast the votes accumulated on me as suspicious. Additionally, there is no effort from anybody voting me to actually explain why I am scum. The confusing thing is that I think this wagon has been driven by town. I don't really get it lol

What makes you think it's misguided-town-driven, rather than scum-driven?

-Reason

[Rhyme and Reason]

you seem convinced I'm not town tbh, might actually mean you're scum.. usually you just like ignore me in games, yet here's the 2nd time you're like "Kovu can definitely be scum" like, what?

I'm not at all convinced that you're scum, I'm just not as convinced as some people that you're town. I think you could have played the way you did as either alignment.

It would be unusual for me to have any confident scumread on D1, let alone be "convinced" that someone is scum.

-Reason

[Rhyme and Reason]

All of these people are null to scum - over half of the wagon and all of the later votes. Definitely could be scum driven.

If the

later

votes are the scum ones then how is it scum-driven? Wouldn't it be town-driven but scum just decided to jump on? (And for scum to have a reason to jump on would pretty much necessarily imply that marci is scum, otherwise they wouldn't care, so it wouldn't make sense for one of these people to be the CW to marci.)

-Reason

[Rhyme and Reason]

Yes that's fair. More accurate would be that scum are taking advantage of town willingness to wagon elsewhere.

Sure. And my understanding is that when picking a CW you want to have at least one scum in the two if possible; otherwise you get pretty much no info. So it doesn't really make a lot of sense to wagon marci alongside someone who's only likely to be scum if she also is. In fact, if marci is scum, then I think we'd want a townie to be wagoned alongside her, so that we can see what stances people take and why.

It's not too late for wagons to move around but if we do end up with two dueling wagons at the end of the day, and one flips town, it's probably a good idea to aim invictus shots at the other one, if there is no better target.

-Reason

[Rhyme and Reason]

I am pretty certain RR is not town.

Why?

Also, I've decided Lava most likely flips town, cause he has some of the better posts of people this game.

Better how? If you mean that they make sense or are things you agree with, scum are generally equally capable of making those posts (in some cases even more capable than town).

-Reason

[Rhyme and Reason]

My list of people that I do not want to be the day 1 elimination has grown to:

1. Bell
3. fireisredsir
4. Lady Lambdadelta
6. Lukewarm
7. Dunnstral
9. Meuh
11. marcistar
14. Kovu
15. VP Baltar
18. Enchant
20. gorilla

Why is LLD on this list and not RR?

~
and on another note I think I tr RR, like, that's the 1 slot to not call me town lol and like all these other people automatically calling me town know I'm capable of posting all of what I've posted thus far as scum, like, I don't think I'm an easy person to just call town, but like, when VP called me scum it was "under the condition bell flips scum then we look at kovu" like, that is probably the worst way to make reads, like, as I've learned, we don't plan on chaining lims or whatever, so instead of how VP called me scum, we have RR just flat out "kovu might be" and I like that

~

lmao Fey "this is a game I'm in" yeah... and this really feels like not town!you

Disagree, that seems well within her scum wheelhouse.

you seem convinced I'm not town tbh, might actually mean you're scum.. usually you just like ignore me in games, yet here's the 2nd time you're like "Kovu can definitely be scum" like, what?

VOTE: RR

I am pretty certain RR is not town.
VOTE: RR

Also, I've decided Lava most likely flips town, cause he has some of the better posts of people this game.

run me through your thought process about us over these 3 posts, Kovu, if you'd be so kind

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

shit, I really need to get into the habit of combining things for future days, but also can someone tell me the cliffnotes on lavar/if there's a case that's been posted them?

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

thanks, Baltar

you roll town this time or are you counting on another embarrassing duping of yours truly?

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

I was about to grill you over the vote for us in 626 but I just read the context and now I get it

in other news, not sure, not ready to commit, I have a desire to scumread you because you've fooled me recently and I don't recall the last time I actually caught you as scum at this point

I'm doing my best to keep that in check and to take your posts on their merits, and hopefully running through it with S_S will help, but for now it's a hard unsure

I also have no idea if interacting with you is going to make said feeling stronger or weaker, so we'll have to see how it goes

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

UNVOTE:

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

i think if this were the case cakez would be setting up whose votes on lavar look shit in order to push them later

you mean:

UNVOTE:
VOTE: lavar

Late day surprise wagon! My favorite.

oh HECK yeah let's go

VOTE: Lavar

Why is LLD on this list and not RR?

Why would we be on the list? Before this post basically nobody had called us town.

This bit is something I would see myself post as scum tbh

I can go find examples of me saying similar stuff as town if you'd like (but only if it would help, it's time-consuming). Or we can just ask the many other people in the game who are familiar with me if it's AI.

I very much want to see a counterwagon to marci for reasons I already laid out, so even though I just got town vibes on Lavar I think it's proper to VOTE: Lavar

I haven't heard from Mena yet but I would expect him to agree with me.

-Reason

I don't want Marci. I realise my opinion on the matter might not count for much when I've been floated as an alternative, but I'll give it, since my lack of involvement in the wagon so far is probably clue enough as gamma pointed out previously.

I got a slight town ping from 40, although I accept that sort of thing could come from scum surprised a made-up read was endorsed by a townie, I also think it would be some co-incidence to hit the same ping on the 8 players posted pre-marci entrance on page 1. My initial reaction to Lukewarms' push there was that is was opportunistic garbage, and seeing datisi wholeheartedly jump on and endorse it with 'lolscum' whilst trying to give justification (albeit shit ones) for everyone else sealed the deal for me that the case was crap. Having seen luke temper and then reverse it leads me to believe the case there was initially deliberately exaggerated and oversold, and in truth is probably +town for luke as well as marci.

I've been voting datisi since "RVS" too, although it was never actually an RVS vote. I've deliberately chosen to be cagey about my reads, which may have led to the impression there is a lack of scum hunting going on, too. Those are the reasons I see given for the wagon now, and I can't see them as scummy because I know there is at least one genuine thought process that results in those same outward signs.

I've not given too much though to LavarManos since I noted datisi's strange justification for that read, which when examined I strongly disagreed with, and thought had to be basically invented. I might have been hasty there, if for no other reason that nothing prevents scum from inventing reasons for giving a 'slightly scummy maybe?' read on a partner.

If this is the two we are going with;

VOTE: LavarManos

All of these people are null to scum - over half of the wagon and all of the later votes. Definitely could be scum driven.

like this?

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

I'm waiting to hear back from S_S so we can avoid dissonance but as it's a topic atm anyway

Cakez was my first scumping the other day, I don't like his ISO when I'm looking at it now, and while I don't feel confident that Lavar is town I feel better about Cakez being scum than Lavar being scum

Idk if S_S is strong on Lavar scum, so idk if we're going to stick to the main wagon or if he's going to back me and we're going to start pushing on Cakez but this is where I'm at personally

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

I'm going to listen to that while I make some lunch, I like it from the beginning

what do you think of Cakez, Fey?

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

Val's last 3 posts look really good to me.

ngl Val is turning out to be one of those players whose posts I just can't bring myself to read, it's really weird and I don't know why this happens. Might have to do with the structuring of the posts? After forcing myself to read them I agree with this take though.

if this flips scum, probably nuke sircakez into the orbit

well this is the most zero-dimensional take I've heard in a while.

Unless Cakez is known for hard throwing as scum I would be pretty floored to see him and Lavar both being scum. Like what is the point of defending your partner in this way without even really giving an argument? To my knowledge Cakez is not exactly know for his persuasion skills; it would just be burning towncred and attracting attention for basically no benefit. (Even if Lavar does survive the day there's very little chance they survive till lategame.)

(in fact if Lavar flips scum I think I might want to nuke

you

into orbit for this post because it seems like kind of a perfect bus post)

Ydrasse with the fire tunes as usual I've never heard of this band before and now I want to check them out

-Reason

[Rhyme and Reason]

How would you expect me to know otherwise? I can't even think of the last time you've been scum and bussed vs me. It's probably happened, but like, even if you did it once I wouldn't expect the second time to be exactly the same as the first, so I don't know how you could ever expect me to confidently say "this is not how datisi busses".

-Reason

[Rhyme and Reason]

jumping onto a wagon of my buddy whom i previously town/nullread and had no interactions with, with a practically naked vote, WHILE saying "btw if this is scum kill this other person after!!!" is such a small brain way to bus i'm disappointed in the scumtisi you imagine

Idk, I can't really think of a more plausible way that you would do that. Like, if you've decided that Lavar's lim is inevitable, what's the alternative? The CW has basically dissolved. If you decide to be one of the ones attempting to start a CW that (a) probably doesn't work and (b) makes you look suspicious as hell when Lavar flips. The alternative to making a naked vote would be to make a case, which makes no sense given you've posted no thoughts on Lavar basically at all. And setting up the lim on Cakez is small brain as either alignment, sorry not sorry. If you think me calling your vote a bus is insulting your scum game, imagine what you're doing to his scum game by saying he's defending partner Lavar.

-Reason

[Rhyme and Reason]

(c) do absolutely nothing pretending that i'm busy (to be fair it wouldn't even be pretending because i'm currently procrastinating like 5 different things because i'm stupid) then once someone asks go "well if i was his partner i would've bussed obviously!!!!!!!1!1!!32"

ez money

Although this might work, I'd probably call it a small brain approach as well, because it does kinda depend on people not thinking about it too hard, and if people start looking for who avoided the Lavar wagon then you'd probably be pretty high on the list.

I would last minute lim cakez if there is interest. His confidence on reads is way too high today for me to believe it is natural.

I may end up deferring to Mena's read here, but in the meantime... how many times have you played with town!Cakez? I think "confidence way too high to believe is natural" describes his towngame quite well.

-Reason

[Rhyme and Reason]

Baltar immediately taking advantage of the death to shade other people

Is that bad? Wouldn't a townie be looking to derive new information from the flip?

Fairly puzzled by the nightkill. I think the fact that it was on someone who had barely posted at all is likely a sign that scum are feeling comfortable.

Yes, but I'm not really sure what scumteam wouldn't be feeling comfortable here, or who could really be killed to allay that discomfort even if they were. LLD is a pretty scary player if town, most people here probably know that, so I don't really think it can be read into that much.

all I can say is I didn't understand the purpose of the posting gimmick

I saw the reference to it in the setup post, thought it would be funny, then decided it would be a great way to keep our post count down (as a hydra in a post-limited game I was worried about using up too many of our posts and depriving my partner of the ability to say more valuable things). He loved it and then that was that. But then we were both V/LA for three days anyway so the postcount thing was moot

I also think LLD dying here means that she was the nightkill who shot Datisi, rather than the other way around.

This is mildly +town I think

huh in what way? in my mind scum would avoid killing people who scumread them, so they don't die

This seems like reasonably sound logic, though not 100% conclusive. Not necessarily for all time, but on Night 1, after a mislim, it probably is something scum can afford to think about, since they were likely feeling comfortable anyway.

my first reaction to this post was "well, dunn is town" but tbh showing up only after people start pushing on him means i proooobably shouldn't let him off that easy, even though i want to. idk

Dunn is being super super Dunn this game. Normally he is quiet and witty and down-to-earth, and I feel like he's doing all those things more than he usually does. Maybe just because I haven't played with him in a while.

My approach to him is generally "keep him around a while because he's usually good for the gamestate and then he'll either die or get sorted mechanically", however I feel like I very often die early when he's scum, so I'm not sure that that approach is actually that effective. Fortunately I'm only half of this hydra so maybe Mena will have a better idea.

there were many times Mena was like "I need to talk to ss about that" umm excuse me.. SS voted lava, and ss never told you why? like fire and I were literally discussing reads yet apparently mena and SS weren't, SS and mena conviniently had no reaction to the Dwlee wagon?

no, he was pretty absent for most of the day yesterday so we never really discussed anything in private. I generally don't feel the need to talk about reads privately with my hydra partner, I can just post my reads in the thread instead.

Why is having no reaction to the Dwlee wagon convenient? Wouldn't it be more convenient to have a reaction that would later be shown to be right? (i.e. "this wagon is bad, dwlee is town" if they are town, or "this is a good wagon" if they are scum)

-Reason

[Rhyme and Reason]

we can boogie with this while we're figuring shit out

VOTE: gorilla

Who here is familiar with lld? Because given how little she'd done so far, I think that kill is much more likely to come from someone who knows her reputation. Here, the main names that occur to me are gorilla/dunn/Bell/Baltar/Cakez. Bell is clear, seemingly, so that leaves me with a likely scum in (gorilla/dunn/Cakez).

I also don't like Fey's entrance today. Not sure it's necessarily a scum entrance, but I think her conclusions about Invictus and where scum kill is almost 180 on what it should be. Namely: I think that the harder someone who eats the NK is SRing someone, the more likely that person is to be town due to the high chance of them using their Invictus on scum if they're right, and how devastating that could be for the scum team within a couple of nights.

Related to that thought, I think that it's decently clearing for dwlee that lld was the kill, and I wouldn't support another wagon there again today. I think, related to this, that there may well have been scum hopping to his wagon at EoD to try and maintain one of them (competing wagons theory) for a kill later on. I'm not sure exactly who it is yet, though.

~Rhyme

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

I mean, I'm kind of coming round to you being town now after looking at your ISO again Cakez (plus S_S thinks you're town) but I had some pretty bad desire to kill you yesterday and that was definitely part of it, so I don't think Luke is crazy for thinking along the same lines

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

Does anyone really give a shit if it's scum!meta or not, because I don't think I've seen more than a handful of wagons that ever went through on a meta case and I'm pretty sure that when they did they were nearly always being pushed by someone with a historically very good read record who could probably have got the lim they wanted regardless of justification

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

@Kovu -- Given our past record in games I might not interact with you a lot; this may seem hypocritical given my criticisms of Datisi but I feel we end up going in circles when we are in games with one another as I cannot understand your logic prior. I am reading your posts though, and if something is genuinely pressing that you need my reply on, please let me know. Otherwise, I feel my posts will be better spent elsewhere lest I end up spiraling out of irritation towards you.

Kovu has a tendency to be self-contradictory and erratic a lot in play. It can be a lot to try to follow sometimes. Give them a few days to see what they do/vote/etc and judge from there.

@Kovu: I think that... it’s hard to change how you think about games entirely. But I’m not mad or angered at you. That’s genuinely how I see your play and I was frank about why I might interact with you less. Similarly, Val asked a question about your play and I answered the way I best think you’re read.

I’ll post more relevant content later tonight.

I don't think this is in anyway beyond the pale to say as scum, and I don't think it's clearing. I liked Fey's interaction with Datisi on D1 which is why I had her as town. I don't have her as scum now, but my confidence in her being town has dropped notably, because I don't understand how town!her is concluding that her death points towards lld's scumreads being actual scum. Mainly, I know that Fey is logical, and yet she's drawing a conclusion that I, knowing I'm town, have reached the complete opposite conclusion on. That strikes me as potentially being due to said conclusion flowing from motivated reasoning instead of the real thing, and I don't see why town!Fey would do that but I can see why scum!Fey would. I'd like to talk with her anyway

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

I mean, I'm kind of coming round to you being town now after looking at your ISO again Cakez (plus S_S thinks you're town) but I had some pretty bad desire to kill you yesterday and that was definitely part of it, so I don't think Luke is crazy for thinking along the same lines

~Rhyme

You can think I'm scum but I hate that Luke is using me being correct about my Lavar read as the reason because it's like saying that I wasn't actually good enough to have just read Lavar correctly

I don't think that's what Luke was saying, but I won't put words into his mouth. I thought his point was that your level of confidence seemed hella high on Lavar!town given what Lavar had done.

I wasn't sold on Lavar scum, but I couldn't see what you were getting from him that was making you so confident (in how your posts came across) that your read was right. I don't think that means that he or I think your reads are bad, but there's a difference between having good reads and having confident reads, and the confidence level was the problematic thing.

So for me it wasn't disbelief that you could be right on Lavar -- it's that standing against a wagon with not that much evidence to back what you're saying seems scummy, especially when you turn out to be right, because scum who

know

what a flip is going to be can sometimes-to-often present themselves as being very confident in order to leverage being right into getting the pushes they want on future days. I've done it myself in the past ("no, you all need to shut up and listen to me because I was right on X on Day Y and you were all wrong and now I'm telling you Z is scum so we're fucking flipping them today because I have good reads and y'all don't" <- only more subtle)

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

Fwiw Fey I was arguing with Mena about that. I didn't think that you had anything to gain as scum by pushing an angle you knew was illogical. (Meaning that regardless of your alignment you are in fact applying logic you actually believe in, at least to some extent.) This was before your latest string of posts on the matter, I could

maybe

see you committing to the bit as scum to try to keep a Dwlee mislim on the table, though I'm not sure if that's characteristic of your scumgame-- could you weigh in on that?

That said, I do think that NKA can be pretty powerful when done right, all the more so when scum don't see it coming. I haven't actually reread LLD's ISO to figure out how telegraphed a Dwlee invictus was, but if it was extremely telegraphed, I think that definitely is a point in Dwlee's favor.

-Reason

[Rhyme and Reason]

A Bell one was more telegraphed imho given her final posts which put more meat to the idea she disliked his posting versus a vote on Dwlee. Also that she had voted Bell before.

This seems completely false, she made it clear that she was going to give Bell one day to prove his role.

SS, do you care to tell us why a Dwlee lim is off the table?

I never said it was. Meuh was trying to make it that way (it seemed like), and Fey was pushing back against it.

But I think the case is pretty clear-- scum presumably want to not get invictus'd, and LLD's invictus, while hard to predict, was most likely to fall on Dwlee. Your explanation for why LLD was killed is not a counterargument to this, unless you're suggesting that scum would want LLD dead at all costs regardless of the risk of losing a member, which would be a pretty bold claim unless you had access to the scum PT.

Mena seems to like this argument, I'm not yet sure how I feel about it.

also this whole SS/Fey conversation feels like partners talking to me.. cause earlier SS was telling me like to be more cautious about my TR there, but when he's talking to fey, he's actively not SRing Fey? idk how to explain it, but this interaction feels like partners, SS killed LLD thinking dwlee is clear or something, idk!! like, why are we claearing the 2nd wagon yesterday that happened at the end?

Come on, you're literally taking a bog-standard thing for me (warning against a townread on X while not scumreading X) and fitting it to the conclusion you want to believe. I don't know what to tell you, you've played with me before, I do this all the time. (And I believe you've tunneled me for bad reasons before? I think I remember that happening.)

Kovu, is there a reason you avoided my multiple attempts to ask you about your read on me?

This post is decidedly +town.

Kovu has also moved to the realm of "I townread them, but I don't have to like it".

Don't do this cheeky garbage, if you really think gorilla is scum then make a decent argument for it

What about that post isn't "decent"? I can see asking for more in-depth explanation, but that seemed like a good-faith argument with real points.

-Reason

[Rhyme and Reason]

@R&R

Ah, my bad. Even still, I don't think Dunn would make that post unless there was at least a grain of truth to it, so I don't think you should necessarily dismiss it.

Arguments about who I'd kill are interesting given I certainly wouldn't be the one making the decision for who to kill given my activity

I don't think the logic depends on you specifically being the one to choose the kill, it just depends on scum having an interest in keeping you alive.

This post is a whole lot of words to do very little scumhunting.

Hello nice to meet you, my name is something underscore smart and this is my thing. Especially early in such a large game, I heavily de-emphasize scumhunting in favor of townhunting, but also just starting discussions on topics that are valuable and helping people get on the same page for things. If you're insinuating that I as scum can't/won't fake scumhunting, I assure you that isn't the case.

The ISO is like 6 posts. Why are you spouting off on something so much if you haven't even read it?

I didn't know that because I hadn't read it Also, I generally like to engage people using their own assumptions, because it's valuable to understand why someone thinks what they do even if they have the facts wrong.

-Reason

[Rhyme and Reason]

S_S and I are working on our reads in PT so that we don't have too much dissonance in thread, we'll post to here once it's done

for now I think we're both chill with gorilla wagon

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

I'll consider limming enchant the day before endgame but not a moment before

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

Because

(1) I find them highly entertaining

and (2) they haven’t done anything I really consider to be scummy thus far

Admittedly mostly (1) but without having a solid SR there for something they’ve actually done, I’m not getting behind the lim

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

Oh wow lol

Mostly because I didn’t like your reaction to being wagoned, and I haven’t seen anything from you yet that shouted town at me

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

Except this entire theory is based on LLD having a single vote on Dwlee. It's literally the only thing. I don't see what the value is entertaining poorly reasoned theories and even promulgating those ideas. What is the purpose instead of just looking at the ISO before you make a comment to see if the thing the person is even saying rings true?

The argument has two parts: (1) LLD's ISO pointed to scumreading Dwlee, and (2) assuming that LLD's ISO pointed to scumreading Dwlee, a team with Dwlee wouldn't kill her. (1) is at the very least under debate, I don't think it's clearly false, which means that the argument might have merit if (2) is true. Thus establishing that I believe (2) is valuable as long as (1) isn't obviously false, which it isn't.

Also, I felt like it.

the PoE on the Lavar wagon is now smaller

What do you mean by this? Wouldn't some people on the wagon flipping town/being townread decrease the expected number of scum on the wagon? Unless you have a particular reason to believe the wagon required extra scum help to go through, which seems impossible to know without knowing the alignments of marci/Dwlee.

Someone help me figure out if this is a real or fake town slip

It doesn't look like either? Marci talked about doing NKA based on "deaths" which implies an uncertainty about where the second kill came from, and Gamma responded by saying that LLD almost certainly invictus'd Datisi (which is true; as far as I know there is no hard mod confirmation of it but it's heavily implied).

So, I feel like maybe I should just out who I am going to be targeting, and then have us decide who we will be targeting over night?

Obviously impossible to know for sure because I don't know your role, but this seems good. I don't think scum knowing your target is really that impactful, just make sure that it's someone who's relatively widely scumread.

...because?

On my side I'm generally just fine with wagoning anyone whom I don't townread. The only thing that might give me pause is Gamma's post:

gorilla was my strongest town read yesterday and I still strongly think that he's town, he's been active in sharing reads/opinions and in trying push scumreads/wagons yesterday until deadline came up, and his reaction to VPB felt VERY don't-give-a-shit-town to me. His recent responses to Meuh reinforce that point even more.

I intend to look into this, Gamma if you could elaborate/give examples that would be helpful. I would definitely like to avoid wagoning someone's strongest townread if possible.

I also saw the Mala softs fwiw, I think it's to town's advantage to not have her clarify unless we receive significant pressure (or she does). You don't have to assume we're clear, but you should consider that it's a possibility. I also think that Val's reaction to Kovu pushing us despite the softs was pretty towny.

-Reason

[Rhyme and Reason]

This is oddly credulous. Dunnstral resorts to arguing like a three-year old, and your response is "hold on, maybe he has a point"?

It's based on experience with Dunn. He's snarky, but his snark usually has a purpose instead of just being annoying.

Okay, so who do you have as town right now?

The names that come to mind are Cakez Kovu Val Mala Dwlee Luke, in no particular order. (And Bell, of course.) I wrote this without looking at Mena's reads, but they actually sync up impressively; the only difference is he has Meuh instead of Kovu.

-Reason

[Rhyme and Reason]

Pedit: why is mala in your town list?

The softing mostly.

Why dwlee, of all people? I don't want to hear about the nightkill, please give me something from their actual posts that is worthy of being a top townread.

No reason, just felt like it.

I've had a quick skim, but unless I missed it, I don't see why Cakez either.

Cakez's D1, in particular his push on my slot, was pretty much exactly what I expect his towngame to look like. I don't know how well he can replicate that, but given that it often gets him into trouble, I wouldn't expect him to make an effort to replicate it as scum? Though of course I'm not totally sure.

1) the only thing I saw in her iso that strongly pointed to a dwlee scum read was a single vote. That's some absolute weak shit to hang your theory on.

How so? If the scumteam are looking to predict who LLD is going to shoot, they have nothing else to go on. I can very easily see a scumteam saying "meh maybe we shouldn't kill LLD, because there's a good chance she shoots Dwlee" based off of that alone. Especially since there are usually several good candidate NK's on N1 in a large, and in my experience it's often little things like that that end up deciding it.

2) no, it doesn't because there are other players on the scum team, as well as other factors to consider, such as scum PRs and how well positioned other scum players are. Saving dwlee, who was wagoned D1, is not a given as a priority.

Not a given, but it has a chance of being a priority. And it has a pretty decent chance of being a pretty high priority, I'd say, because having someone who was wagoned flip scum gives town quite a lot of info.

This post lacks Reason entirely, and I hope you are ashamed. I have no clue why you are trying to push a theory that is demonstrably without significant merit.

I guess you have a different threshold for "significant" than me. I'll call you back when I'm 99% confident on my reads, but I hope you brought a Ouija board.

But if Gammagooey was scum surely they'd know that LLD was the nightkill and therefore Datisi was the invictus, which is why it's a town slip

idk, that's like saying "I think X is scum" is a real or fake townslip, because if they're scum they don't have to guess because they already know whether the person is scum. It's just talking from a town POV, because from a town POV, it's heavily implied but not outright stated that Datisi was the invictus target.

But writing someone off immediately on the basis of a roleclaim is how town loses games.

I guess this is true, but it's never going to be true on day 2. We don't have to say Lukewarm is untouchable for all time when we say they are towny for the time being. (And in general, if someone has claimed a PR and is clearly off the table for a few days, you should keep quiet about your suspicion of them, because if nobody expresses any they will probably just get NK'd eventually.)

If one person in the scumteam has that role that exceeds guidelines, any of them can then safely fake-claim it.

Well yes, but if it's not the person who has said role, and then the person with the role flips, the other one's in hot water.

-Reason

[Rhyme and Reason]

I would think you being town would make Cakez look worse in your eyes, given that he would have then pushed you and two confirmed town players (also threw shit at me), all while being wildly overconfident Lavar was town pre-flip. That's a lot of red flags in my book. It's confusing you are reaching an opposite conclusion there without something you feel is absolutely outside his scum range.

It's a meta read. He often makes weird pushes and is overly confident in things as town.

Taking then off the table, to me, is a gamelong decision. What I am saying is they are not my preferred lim choice today, so there is little value in pushing for more info right now.

My understanding is that "taking someone off the table" is a temporary decision, usually for reasons other than townreading them. If you take someone off the table for the whole game, that's just townlocking them. I think this matches with how it's usually used.

-Reason

[Rhyme and Reason]

fire, I know I owe you a response on other stuff but I'm ill and I've been putting my efforts elsewhere today and I'm kinda out of spoons to get into it

what I will drop in to say is that Meuh is my top townread if we're basing it purely off play, and if anyone tries to wagon her I will be an avenging fire from the heavens that comes forth to crisp their ashes and to brush them from the Land

I think she's had by far the clearest actual thought processes/development in response to what's happening in the game so far

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

@fire there is a difference between having votes and being a viable wagon

I knew that meuh had votes, but it didn't need to be addressed at the point where it's like 2 votes, in the same way that I won't address a wagon on myself if it has 2 votes normally

my comment to you is not necessarily about convincing you, it is giving you a heads up that if you try to come for Meuh then I will prob turn it on. honestly that might not be the worst thing in the world (I don't mean "turn it on" like to be a dick or that I'll be super aggro) but I mean more that if you are thinking this is an easy push or a simple compromise push, you may want to find another target

I also find it... hard to believe from a base level that you can't see thought progressions when looking at her ISO, although I'm not towncasing her rn

@gorilla -- show receipts, because that just looks like a straight up lie right now. am I reading the game closely? no. I'm reading it the way I always do, which is skimming along and then going back to read sections in ISO/in depth.

there is one moment (yesterday, when I responded to you about the wrong thing) that was me glossing over the game, partly because I was high as balls. but I cannot think of any other moment where I haven't been upfront about my being behind, and when I'm commenting you can assume I'm up-to-date

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

Are his reads terrible too?

As town? I've seen them be not great, at least early on.

did you read my 993 and 997? i don't remember a response to them from you, any thoughts? since you're Reason, i would expect you to know that "cakez makes weird pushes and is overly confident in things as town" is not sufficient evidence to support "cakes makes weird pushes and is overly confident -> cakez is town"

I read them, I'm not about to try to draw conclusions from an ISO from a game I wasn't in. I think the town-Cakez post you linked in 997 is fairly rare and uncharacteristic of him, at least from what I remember.

And yes, I do know that the logical argument constructed from my claim would be a fallacy of affirming the consequent. But my claim is probabilistic; Cakez is very often like this as town (maybe 90%, at least in my experience), and the chance that he can pull it off this game in a way that feels very similar is lower (maybe 50%? I don't want to give him too little credit here), so his odds of being town increase.

For what it's worth, I do not think this makes you scum and was not implying that. I am saying is that it makes you incredibly unreliable and you should probably not be trusted given you're not really paying attention to the game. (this will make you upset. I don't care)

I mean, you're free to ignore your teammates when they're not saying what you want to hear, that's definitely a good strategy for winning this team game. But I think it's ironic that you accused Menalque of not reading the game and as evidence pointed to multiple things that I did.

Also, I think you misunderstood the bit about LLD and Dwlee. The question "would scum avoid killing LLD if she seemed to be FOSing scum-Dwlee" is actually unrelated to the question "did LLD seem to be FOSing Dwlee"; both are important, but I was addressing the former at that time, and when I addressed the latter, I read LLD's ISO.

-Reason

[Rhyme and Reason]

i still haven't seen you say that you explicitly have experience with him as scum where he is not like this. so i will ask directly: do you?

Yes: two games. The first of which is

very

old, but it's still notable for me as the first game where I ever townread Cakez (I had played probably half a dozen games with him by this point), and also the first I played in where he was scum.

However the argument does not depend on this experience. The 50% was a rough ballpark based on the specificity of the behaviors in question. Some things are just naturally harder to replicate easily.

I think if you're town what you're saying should mostly be ignored, yes. I have no reason to believe anything you say is remotely reliable when your play has been as sloppy and lazy as it has been.

Which head is this in reference to? Or does my sloppiness make Menalque unreliable, or vice versa (even though our reads were mostly arrived at independently)?

-Reason

[Rhyme and Reason]

Why would this ever happen? I mean sure if you wanna just guess who I'm on tonight, but I'm not announcing it in thread.. like you had a perfectly good offer from marci to twin with you, when you explained your role, you just said "someone" by you going "I want Kovu" excuse me? So am I gonna die if you correctly guess my target, probably can't self invictus so maybe I just go on you? like, someone said this was a scum role in the first, and if town!you had this role, I'd assume you'd haven been right with RR day 1 going "yeah lets invictus the 2nd wagon!!!" that doesn't out this at all. I don't see why town!you would claim it like you did, and then go "I want to twin with Kovu" WHAT EVEN??? well, have fun guessing my target then.

what a bizarre response. what makes you think it's something bad? and if it really were a kill, Luke would be outing themself as scum by targeting you, which they presumably wouldn't do given the good position they seem to be in...

-Reason

[Rhyme and Reason]

I legit read through everything between my second-to-last post and my last post and found nothing else worth commenting on.

Mena was working on some reads, hopefully he can finish those up and post them soon.

-Reason

[Rhyme and Reason]

I was hoping that Mena'd have a chance to do something since he seemed interested in finishing up and sharing his reads (and he has some outstanding questions to address), but it seems like he's been super busy lately. I'll try and coordinate with him about deciding on a vote, I guess, if nothing else.

-Reason

[Rhyme and Reason]

Well, that was a hectic night

Bell, why are you confirmed again? Obviously not asking you to put if you haven’t said why yet, but if you did can you just tell me

We’re working on updated reads since this happened

Also, if you’re reading, thanks for checking us Mala, I’ve been busy and was kind of avoiding this game because I didn’t want to have to deal with maybe being pushed for activity stuff

Also also, for now VOTE: dunn

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

Oh right, thank you

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

Ugh I really wish mala hadn’t shot dwlee tho

Bell, let’s talk Cakez — what about his posting in PT is so bad?

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

Baltar was a decent shot, honestly, even with townflip

@meuh, why doesn’t Marci drop a SR on three town right before dying?

@kovu, can you fill in on why Cakez’ posting in the PT is so bad apparently?

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

Gorilla, who were you on last night?

@meuh, is the distancing-oriented thing a meta read or a personality read or is it based on her play this game?

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

Same

Kovu seem town to you?

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

Lim pool is probably (fey, fire, dunn, cakez) but S_S and I need to chat first


@meuh, i find that kind of unconvincing unless you can provide me with a concrete reason for why she would do that this game over just hitting 3 town with SRs

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

I think it’s a bad look for you that you tried to keep dwlee in the lim pool after I explained why that didn’t make sense and now he’s flipped town

Like I said, this is all pending discussion with S_S but there’s nothing that particularly sells me on you being town

Also, shutting on my previous reads has never convinced me to not push someone, but scum have tried to use it to discredit me when I’ve been on them before. So while you’re welcome to go for that angle, it’s not helping you here

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

@Rhyme: I don't have one. It's a feeling I have and you don't have to also have this feeling.
Also, they.

Thanks for clarifying and for the reminder.

@fey, idk, what makes you think I’m confident on you? You’re in my pool, I haven’t at any point said you were my top lim and haven’t worked this out with S_S yet

I think I’ve only ever been confident on you being town before, and we both know that I’ve also been mistaken in thinking you were town and have lost at least one game because of it

I find your reaction here strange

~~~

I think 5 scum in this game would be wildly broken and I’m not entertaining that notion, given all the extra kills and the odds that many will be on town

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

@gorilla what about Fey’s claim makes her hard town?

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

normally i would prob just pick someone to trust on it but my mind goes to dunn and idk if i trust him lol

Reason is busy-ish, if you wanna hear from him then I can try to ping him to answer this specifically or I can talk to him about it and report back

as of our most recent talk we're happy to go ahead with a vote, but we're also including gamma in our lim pool unless someone can be more persuasive on town!gamma than dubious associatives with marci

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

for now

VOTE: Fey

exceedingly sceptical that earlier was a town reaction from her: the dwlee logic and attempt to keep them in the pool yesterday was bad (and they’re now conftown), the detective-invictus thing doesn’t make sense to me, her targets have been useless and are conveniently dead, her posts to me today have read as extremely emotionally manipulative

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

I mean, we're happy to do that if you flip town, sure

Also kinda wanna chain Cakez and force him to put us in the hood with Bell and Kovu

~rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

Baltar was near 100% the vig shot from Luke, and Mala was the NK bc scum thought she was a clearing invest and didn't realise she was 1-shot

I'm maybe being somewhat selfish, but I consider Cakez to have utility (and despite my misgivings, S_S was previously pretty set on him being town? I'd like to speak to him myself) in the sense that he could neighbourise us, scum might not be able to kill us, and then we potentially have an all town hood for a day and a night to talk things through with Bell -- if Gorilla can save one of us with his BG

Plus if Cakez doesn't do it, he's basically scumclaiming and easy to pick up tomorrow

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

Fwiw I'm not actually busy. I'm just apathetic, and pissed about both of those invictus shots, and in a position that very much does not suit my playstyle (conftown, high scum ratio, not much mechanical info), so I'm planning to defer to Mena for today.

I think maf has a role that messes with the invictus shot of who they kill.

I would consider this bastard, and while it is possible because the game has maximum one bastard role and it's presumably not a town role, it would also be unfair, unfun, and unbalanced. So I highly doubt it.

And Cakez in not clear, in fact I’m just about certain he’s maf.

It's kind of funny that you expect people to trust you after you just admitted you lied.

Enchant you kind of just sound like this game to me.

I thought of that, but there's a big huge difference, which is that in that game Enchant was always planned to go down and was just trying to make as much noise and stall it as much as possible, whereas in this game they are expressing outrage over stuff that's unrelated to them and they're not under any pressure.

I think it's towny, though that game does demonstrate that they are willing to fake outrage as scum.

I have a 1500+ post hood with fire

Fire is this true?

-Reason

[Rhyme and Reason]

That's... literally why it works?

You die --> if you flip town, then whichever town player gets shot tonight shoots cakez

if Cakez scum, we get scum --> cool

if you're wrong and Cakez town, we get neighbourhood which is probably all town tomorrow --> cool

if Cakez scum but scum hit the BG block --> we get neighbourhood that's compromised and can always yeet cakez tomorrow --> cool

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

I have no idea why you think I would trust you on this, who I actively suspect, over my hydra partner, who has been telling me he thinks Cakez is quite likely town

the hood thing is a bonus/added reason, it is not the reason why we're voting for you>cakez

also if there's ever a time when we're justified in being a bit selfish it's when we're literally conftown and wanting to be able to maybe speak with other conftown in private

sorry to hear that, I hope you feel better

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

UNVOTE:

we've talked about it and we've reversed position on Fey, we think her posting/reaction is consistent with town!her and we're not very interested in entertaining a wagon there atp

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

RR my counterpoint to adding yall to the hood was that day 1 yall were like "we don't talk about our reads" so like, yes even though I was like "add them! it's 2 people" at the same time it's like, RR isn't doing anything in their own hood... why would they do something in this hood?

we didn't have the chance to talk much on D1 because we were both busy IRL. we talk about our reads, and in fact just spent the last probably 20 minutes discussing them

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

so are we all gonna Invictus Dunn after I flip town

S_S and i are amenable to not doing you maybe, but you need to towncase yourself plus we need to talk live at some point when I’m free (not now, waiting for a friend I’m seeing a movie with)

If anyone hammers or pushes the cakez wagon through before we get the chance to do so, they get policy limmed tomorrow unless he reds btw. Even if it isn’t a scumclaim, it’s scum often enough to policy and such awful play that said person would be a liability anyway

Fair warning

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

Do not kill Gamma before they have a chance to respond.

Also, I thought scum didn't have daytalk? How can it be a slip in that case?

-Reason

[Rhyme and Reason]

so are we all gonna Invictus Dunn after I flip town

S_S and i are amenable to not doing you maybe, but you need to towncase yourself plus we need to talk live at some point when I’m free (not now, waiting for a friend I’m seeing a movie with)

If anyone hammers or pushes the cakez wagon through before we get the chance to do so, they get policy limmed tomorrow unless he reds btw. Even if it isn’t a scumclaim, it’s scum often enough to policy and such awful play that said person would be a liability anyway

Fair warning

~Rhyme

I hate towncasing myself because no one ever listens to it anyways

sure, but on this occasion we're conftown and are asking you to do so, and telling you that it is important for us in terms of sorting you

I also want to add on to my point that I wouldn't have neighborized conftown if I were scum here - not only did I neighborize conftown, but I neighborized BELL

BELL
WHO HAS BEEN TRYING TO KILL ME ALL GAME

I could have brought in a scum buddy and worked on snowing Kovu with them
or brought in a townie and worked on snowing them in the hood myself

no
I brought BELL
who has been intent on killing me the ENTIRE game

why is this better than bringing in Bell in the hopes that you could change his mind/pocket him via hood and thereby remove one of the key voices trying to get you killed?

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

We'd like him to do the towncase first, because we think he might be town but we need to see what his thought process has been so far

if he says what we think might make him town, we'll let you know, but we'd like to give him the chance to do that first before limming

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

Prodge.

K, I’m gunna be selfish here. Ask for cakez to go and then if I’m wrong here I’ll shut up and trouble shoot people’s thoughts instead.

Okay Mena. I’ll defer to that. If they don’t trip whatever it is. Then my request remains

Thanks, Bell. Correspondingly, if he doesn't trip it I'm (haven't confirmed with S_S yet but I think I can talk him round) happy to support your Cakez lim for today. I think if he flips town and we get killed then we'd like you to do Dunn tomorrow (if not Invictus'd) and to push back on any attempts at a Fey wagon

so are we all gonna Invictus Dunn after I flip town

S_S and i are amenable to not doing you maybe, but you need to towncase yourself plus we need to talk live at some point when I’m free (not now, waiting for a friend I’m seeing a movie with)

If anyone hammers or pushes the cakez wagon through before we get the chance to do so, they get policy limmed tomorrow unless he reds btw. Even if it isn’t a scumclaim, it’s scum often enough to policy and such awful play that said person would be a liability anyway

Fair warning

~Rhyme

I hate towncasing myself because no one ever listens to it anyways

sure, but on this occasion we're conftown and are asking you to do so, and telling you that it is important for us in terms of sorting you

I also want to add on to my point that I wouldn't have neighborized conftown if I were scum here - not only did I neighborize conftown, but I neighborized BELL

BELL
WHO HAS BEEN TRYING TO KILL ME ALL GAME

I could have brought in a scum buddy and worked on snowing Kovu with them
or brought in a townie and worked on snowing them in the hood myself

no
I brought BELL
who has been intent on killing me the ENTIRE game

why is this better than bringing in Bell in the hopes that you could change his mind/pocket him via hood and thereby remove one of the key voices trying to get you killed?

~Rhyme

Because it's Bell he is not going to listen to me

I think Bell tends to be reasonable, if tunnel-y -- I don't think it's by any means a sure thing that you wouldn't think you'd have a better shot at convincing him 1-on-1

Frankly I am not going to be able to give you the town case you want in the next few days bc I'm basically only phone posting. I can put together a quick hits list but I can't get elaborate.

I mean, that's unfortunate, but sure -- I'll take that over nothing

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

@Enchant stop shitposting for a minute

never do this, my beautiful agent of chaos

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

current thoughts are that scum is probably just (Cakez, dunn, enchant) by PoE, I suppose maybe I'm wrong on meuh if any of those are town

bell and I are conf, gorilla is like meh for content but the way and timing of his claim was town I think (+maybe confirmable, if he continuously misses his BG shots he should be looked at closely in elo), Val is similar to gorilla, kovu I'm trusting bell and S_S, fire I'm trusting the consensus that he wouldn't have 1500 posts with kovu if scum even though I don't think he's really done anything that stands out as towny thus far, gamma and fey I can't really be bothered to explain properly but we think they're both probably town atp, I still like meuh for town from progressions but admittedly there are now enough reasons to TR others that she's kinda slipped into the outer rim of possible scum

so that just leaves enchant, cakez, and dunn *shrug*

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

I don't want to go into why I think fey is town in any detail but I think her reaction the pressure spewed her pretty hard town

equally, I'm probably not the best judge there but I'll feel a certain way about it if she is scum this game

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

no one in the history of mafia has ever played a game optimally

I play all my games optimally, I'm actually a perfect player but other people just get in the way by flipping town after I called them scum

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

everyone simple forget that i and my opinion existed

never, my precious bean

although I think you're wrong on Fey and idr why you think she's maf really

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

I want to trust you, RR, but I really can't see it. If you have a reputation of reacting to pressure a certain was as scum, would you not be playing against wincon if you didn't attempt to replicate that as scum?

I don't really want to go into it but you know that I'm conftown so please trust me when I say there are good reasons for why I think she's town but they go beyond the remit of the game -- I've been wrong on her before, but generally I think when I've thought she was town for good reasons I've been right. I'd at least like her off the table for the next couple of days unless there are a number of town flips in the players that seem susp

I recall a game that we lost when I townbinned her incorrectly, but that was due to a combination of paranoia on another player and playing what I'd like to refer to as "hope mafia" i.e. I really hope this person is X alignment but don't have reasons for it

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

There's obvious gauge between "most horrible play in history" to "suspicious brilliance".


People can play not optimally, no doubt, but they want to be useful or atleast use common sense.

... Unless this is vigilante.

enchant, I read this like 5 times but I still don't get what you're trying to say, I'm sorry, I've failed you

alternative question: let's say you couldn't lim Fey -- who would you do instead?

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

Cakez doesn't make sense as scum with my two strongest scumreads of Fey/Dunn

Why?

also if you swap Fey and enchant we're at almost the same place

also I think Val was towny even before the claim, what're your issues there? I still think you can easily be scum btw but S_S thinks you're pretty hard town so I'm deferring to him

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

OK.

As long as you can tell me you can see some possible legitimate thought process that leads to Fey jumping off the gamma wagon first as soon as the thread is unlocked while still thinking gamma is scum, instead of trying to make everyone else see it while attention (and a decent wagon) was on that slot.

Don't need to know what it is, just that's you've considered it and you aren't playing hope mafia in this game.

I'm not, there's real reasons behind it and there are various things that have bothered me/given me doubts about Fey!town this game, but unless her game has radically changed from what it was I think her reaction to pressure outweighs pretty much everything else

again, if we were to flip a number of the most likely scum slots (let's say dunn, cakez, enchant all die within the next 2 days and 2 flip town) re-examine, bc then maybe we are in a world where her game has had that change to it... but I think that for now Fey would be a bad lim that's very very likely to flip town

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

to borrow a line from Conan Doyle as we've been working on that in my classes recently: once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth

I think there are plenty of things that Fey has done that make it

improbable

that she's town -- but the one thing she did has made me think that it's almost

impossible

that she's scum (again, unless she's completely changed what she does when playing)

and so that one thing is more important fmpov than all the other stuff

~Rhyme

(I'd still take a cop check though just because committing to anything with this degree of support makes me incredibly paranoid bc sadly I still have an ego and don't want to be dead wrong in front of everyone)

[Rhyme and Reason]

meuh, while you're here and purely out of interest, it's not game relevant -- are you an alt?

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

Prodge. Hopefully we'll have a readlist or something soon.

-Reason

[Rhyme and Reason]

Inclined to say we kill in exactly dunn or meuh today

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

Are there any reasons for fire!town aside from the hood having a lot of posts?

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

okay, everyone whose name isn't Bell or Kovu, full readslist of all remaining players (you do not need to include us or Bell) next time you're in thread please

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

individual is fine, I'm not interested in team takes particularly

thanks

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

Waiting on R&R apparently they’ll be by on the weekend.

Hopefully. I'm sorry, but I'm really not in a state to contribute to this game without Mena, and he seems to be pretty distracted. I could put in effort but I literally don't think it would help at all.

-Reason

[Rhyme and Reason]

Idk if I mentioned previously or just in PT, but I flew back to the uk today and getting ready for that has been taking up a lot of my time

I have a wedding tomorrow and travel back to my hometown on Sunday, but I’ll have noticeably more time next week

I think we’re still not that close to deadline? So I’d prefer not to end day early as we have decent odds of dying, I’ll hopefully be able to read and catch up tomorrow pre-wedding or on Sunday on the train journey home

Sorry if it’s been frustrating that our slot (and especially me, as I’m meant to be shouldering the majority of the work atm) hasn’t been v present but hopefully the above serves to clarify why

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

Fwiw worth I’m between a couple of different things, but kind of tempted to say that we yeet in gorilla/gamma/fire after looking back at my previous thoughts from earlier in the game , but I want to run over that more with S_S especially but also kovu and bell in the PT

Mentioning it now so it’s out there and also bc idk how many votes Fey is at

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

Fwiw worth

for what it's worth worth

ATM machine

Would scum bully an irritated conftown who has previously expressed interest in killing both of them

Hmmmm

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

Irritated bc I’m tired and back in the Uk, to be clear, not bc of game or anyone in it

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

I didn’t mean actually bully, that was meant to be a joking tone

Maybe didn’t come across

Need to sleep

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

Did everyone answer my why aren’t you scum this game question?

I don’t think we did yet but it’s bc we got cop checked

Also hi all, I’m kinda around and ready to maybe start making progress in something but waiting to hear back from bell/kovu in the PT before we take action

Sorry to the town who are out of that for whom this must be kinda frustrating, but I think we have a de facto masonry and is helpful to run ideas past people who I know/think I can trust first before busting them out here in main thread

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

The wedding was really fun btw

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

Ahhh meuh

Thanks

Also my gut says you’re town but my head says you can very easily be scum, what do I listen to, what do I lsiten to

Have you got anything you think you really obviously wouldn’t have done as scum in the game or that makes like no logical sense for you to do as scum?

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

Also if you guys still think Gorilla and I flip S/S in a million years look at this
Dude was clearly pissed at me at this point and I was laughing at it, cause that was a scum!response

Like the problem with stuff like this is that you can go further with a scum partner who’s okay with it to make it LOOK like one side is really pissed but if it’s agreed on then it’s fine and obviously all faked

It’s especially hard to read via forum mafia where we lose tone of voice and timing of when things are said etc etc

I also, idk, don’t find the thing about Marci not interacting with you that way as S/S compelling

I suppose I’m looking more for things where your play strategically doesn’t make any sense from scum

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

Ooooooooh i kinda do wanna powerfade gorilla doe

Has he got votes atm? Could we speedwagon outta nowhere?

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

Fire why are you not scum other than lots of posts in your PT with kovu

[Rhyme and Reason]

I do believe that you wouldn’t want to kill Val but I can see you going with it if the rest of your team were worried about being guiltied


Both posts from
~Rhyme btw

[Rhyme and Reason]

Okay that’s actually kind of compelling hmmmm

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

Ooooooooh i kinda do wanna powerfade gorilla doe

Has he got votes atm? Could we speedwagon outta nowhere?

~Rhyme

Go for it.

Trust me, I want to, but I’m waiting on Bell and S_S first and as much as I enjoy sometime recklessness there’s no reason not to wait for them both given possible lilo

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

Right, we’re doing Gorilla

VOTE: gorilla

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

Dunn, vote gorilla if you’re still around

Meuh, put your vote back on gorilla

Kovu and Bell will vote gorilla once they get here.

There’s jackshit to read Gorilla as town from, my townreads have been overwhelmingly correct from early game which makes me want to go back to my stronger earlier reads which was that Gorilla!scum is a thing, the claim was the only clearing thing but the repeated hard dips into AtE and crying is doing nothing for me

If I’m wrong, fine, we can sheep Gorilla. But so far the “vote the scummy slot that didn’t do much” approach has been awful given that Cakez and Enchant were both town and so I think scum have had a stronger influence than it appears — who has been pushing for that type of policy lim most strongly? Gorilla

And I think there’s a major disconnect between the words and the actions e.g. trying to leave a winning blueprint while simultaneously going on about how he wants our slot to lose

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

I like to try to play mafia in as cooperative a way as possible and through building consensus, but that isn’t happening here and I’m getting real tired of many of the shots that have been taken and my patience and desire to be nice through my play is also running out

If gorilla flips scum and we get shot, Fey is absolutely off the table — gamma is probably the lim for tomorrow and then last would be likely fire/meuh with a lean towards fire

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

I’m going to sleep now

I want to wake up to a gorilla scumflip

Make it happen

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

I literally said that we were killing dunn in the PT, so you as scum would have had to kill one of us anyway or it would have been obvious you were scum when neither of the conftowns died

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

I’m still pure sheeping those who say that kovu town tho

~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

Okay we kill meuh

Bell had her in his solve (also thinks it’s gamma)

Gorilla said meuh next

After that idk, I still think gamma>fey but Fey was in the same section of my early reads as dunn so quite possibly I’m just wrong?

VOTE: meuh

[Rhyme and Reason]

Thank god I die before elo and don’t have to think about anything

Last two both ~Rhyme

[Rhyme and Reason]

my plan is still just to sheep Gorilla and Bell and kill meuh

~Rhyme