Mafia Invictus Redux [Game Over]

[Val89]

VOTE: Datisi

Vibes.

[Val89]

For example, a Mafia Godfather or a Town Invictus Bulletproof would be fair game while an

Iambic Pentameter Post-Restricted Townie

or a Mafia Global Role Randomizer would not be.

I'll be honest, I'm not sure a Iambic Pentameter Post-Restricted Mafioso, in a game where the townie equivalent has been specifically disclaimed from existing, would pass review as being a touch too town-sided, but I wouldn't mind been wrong on that score.

[Val89]

I wonder, particularly given the use in the previous post, if I understand 'vibes' to mean something different to others. I voted datisi because something felt off about his posting in a way I was (and still am) unable to fully articulate - datisi suggests in 60 it is an awkwardness, and perhaps that is one way to describe it - if I was to make a better attempt, I think the early interactions with VP felt a little contrived, like it was trying to get out in front of something. I'm not usually a player to rely on the feels or gut, or whatever, and the fact that ping was going off at this early stage in the game was plenty sufficient for me to place a vote there.

Having not been given any articulated reasons for the suspicion falling on him, I find no fault in datisi essentially ignoring them. Takotsubo above suggests this is slightly town indicative, but putting myself in datisi's shoes, I can't see how you would play differently as either alignment, for the reasons given in 60 and therefore can't consider it alignment indicative either way. I'm left with whatever it was that pinged me in the first place, which hasn't gone away albeit datisi has had little opportunity since. I am leaving my vote there, but I do have to scratch my head at the the takotsubo unvote. I could understand moving the vote, but a naked unvote seems a little odd to me, particularly if, as claimed, the vote was intended as a reaction test.

Moving to the wagon more widely, the fact that one did build up to +50% of the votes required to hammer before encountering resistance is interesting. It appears to me that, given that nobody has come out with a good articulated reason for the wagon, either some portion of the player-list also got the heeby-jeebies from datisi early on, or mafia have taken a early run at a town!datisi and artificially inflated the feeling of unease around the slot. I also acknowledge that it could well be elements of both, but I think if so, the majority is likely to fall into the former category, given that it should be fairly obvious a quick-wagon was never going to succeed on a town!datisi without at least some semi-reasonable basis and scum could expect to be called out once it stalled. The conclusions I draw from that are: a) there may well be something in the early feelings I had around datisi, and my vote can stay there while I look into the assertion that datisi is wagoned early all the time because of an awkwardness that isn't alignment indicative (I am unlikely to have time to do so today, so help in that regard would also be appreciated) and b) I think I can reasonably be suspicious of those slots who resisted the datisi wagon and threw shade on the members of it, on the basis that there was a wagon. I would be less concerned if they had cause to townread datisi themselves, but I see no evidence for it.

I was about to spell out who it is I mean by that, but it probably obvious whom falls into that category and I am wondering if, given the invictus mechanic, if this is a game I ought to be telegraphing exactly how my reads stand at all times. In regular games, I think that is largely how one should play, although I know there are disagreements on that score, but I wonder if the argument for playing ones cards closer to ones chest is stronger in this game than others. One the one hand, if you are right and are openly suspecting scum that might dissuade them from killing you at night and leaves you alive to continue to push those scum, but if you are wrong, and scum can reasonably infer you might have another town as the target of your invictus, there is the risk of handing scum a free two-for-one. Given the number of D1 TvT shitfights I have found myself in over the course of my mafia career, I am inclined not to choreograph my exact moves at least for today and until I feel much more comfortable I am on the right track.

Apologises to those who dislike wall posts, but I not sure of the alternative here.

[Val89]

What exactly is it you mean by your eyes glazing over, with respect to both myself and lavarmanos?

[Val89]

And the same applies to lavarmonos? Those posts seem like filler and not directed towards solving the game to you?

[Val89]

yes. i was looking at his posts and the thought i was having was "get to the point already".

Sorry, but I disagree entirely. None of the examples given there are overly wordy or superfluous to my eyes, and not a single one comes close to using 100 words to express what could in 10, not least because none of lavermanos' posts contain 100 words. I can understand your criticism of me for being wordy, although I think anyone who has played with me previously will know that is NAI, but something still seems off with that justification being applied to lavermanos, particularly with the examples given. It smells of post-justification to me.

You said previously that the votes on you were because of an awkwardness that results in your being wagon early on the regular. I suggested that I would try and find the time check the veracity of that statement, and then (and only then, not when you first said it), did dunnstral say that wasn't their experience, and your next post is an acknowledgement that I wont find a good example of you being wagoned early as town. Why do you think it happened to town you early in this game, then?

You have scumreads/leans on some of the members of your wagon, but correct me if I am wrong, but in each case those reads are unrelated to voting you, correct?

[Val89]

When you talked about it later, it was also shortly after Datisi brought it up again in post 133 response to post 82, and I was more skeptical about it at this point.

Askhually, 131 is before 133, but OK, your point that you were skeptical at the time datisi raised it but elected not to bring it up until I mentioned it again was because you assumed datisi would tell the truth about his own selfmeta is noted. I can buy that.

[Val89]

Yall talk way too much lol and they're giant posts...

...followed by 4 giant posts, some of which are critizing others for giant posts.

Is this another one of those internal contradictions I kept getting told in other games I'm supposed to find townie, but I still can't bring myself to do it?

like, who actually thinks we get anything by pressuring Datisi in RVS?

You say this like there is something obvious those of us on the Datisi wagon are missing. For the benefit of those of us who aren't as intimately familiar with Datisi as you are, why do you say pressure there was pointless?

[Val89]

OK, I think I understand what we are dealing with now. Andante was exactly whom was being called to my mind when I mentioned being told in other ganes I was supposed to find that sort of internal contradiction townie, but find myself unable to do so.

Ill try my hardest to take Feys advice and leave that read alone for a bit.

[Val89]

Still skimming, but is anyone else getting the feeling from the last couple of pages that Kovu really wants someone to scumread me for a lack of activity, and is getting frustrated noone is biting?

[Val89]

I don't even see the motivation for Val to point this out, perhaps because Kovu called them out specifically by name and it bothered them, but instead of directly asking Kovu about that, they asked the crowd instead. It's not strange per se, but it's not direct either which could be either preference in being indirect or because they want something else out of their post and others responing to it.
The way they phrased it seemed to be that Kovu was specifically trying to kill them, but there's little reason from that perspective to suspect one player is having it out for one specific player when there are plenty of other players that you could go for. There's even more interest toward other inactives from other player statements. It could be a mistake of ego, but I fin it either poorly worded or poorly thought out.

I also see Kovu revote LavarManos, and my recollection was that the genesis of that read was that Lavar had

dared

to not call me scummy, and the fact they even considered me 'nulltown' must be evidence of TMI, and out of all the reads and justifications given, that was the one that warranted Kovu's vote. The very fact that comprehensive list of leads came shortly after I decided I didn't think a comprehensive reads list was a good idea in this setup felt like a pointed rejection of that premise, same with Datisi, whom, spoiler alert, I don't exactly trust right now.

So yeah, maybe it is ego, but it does appear Kovu has somewhat of a preoccupation with my slot.

[Val89]

I don't think it's a good idea to share invictus targets tbh

Why?

I agree, but my reasoning there was also why I said I don't think it's a good idea to share comprehensive reads list, because it may well help scum infer whom you invictus target may be, even if you don't explicitly say exactly who it is. Of all the slots in the game, yours is the one that I associate most strongly with having taken the contrary position, so I am surprised to see you also being the one to say sharing invictus targets is not a good idea.

Do you have a different reason for saying so from me that can explain that disconnect?

[Val89]

Back in 131, I said the fact that an early datisi wagon built up was interesting, and it was unlikely mafia was going to be driving it, which said to me that whatever feelings of unease I had with datisi were probably shared by other town.

I appear now, along with marci (interestingly enough, exactly the slots Lukewarm has voted for this game, while never actually taking a position on datisi itself, except to say the "The flurry of votes on datisi is surprising"), to be the remaining votes on that wagon. It has dissipated, but my understanding is that is has done because others have not shared the vibes, gut-feelings, 'off-beat'; whatever you want to call them, that datisi himself told us on three occasions (60, 133, 146) we should have picked up, because he knows he was being off himself.

I've gone back and had a look for mentions of datisi or the wagon, because my gut feeling was no-one was actually townreading datisi, and in doing so noted a few things:

Spoiler: Other reads on datisi

Kovu on Datisi:

Datisi – I don’t get the votes here, datisi actually seems fine so far, and how he’s handling the votes seems ok too like, I honestly think it’s a little unfair of the expectations people have on Datisi compared to a lot of the others so far, like, why is it perfectly acceptable to only talk in Shakespeare, yet, datisi just exists and votes are flying there and people are all “you need to interact!!!” but like, what if the vote on Datisi comes with 0 content?? How is he supposed to interact with “vote:datisi cuz vibes” like… For multiple reasons, I town lean him for now

Is there another way to read this other than "datisi is town because val voted for it?". This appears to the start of a bit of a pattern, in that there appears to a tendency to discount scum!datisi because of a dislike of those on the wagon, and to dislike those slots because...they are on the datisi wagon.

First, the counterexamples:

Datisi wagon bad imo
Think Datisi >Rand town

I think the wagon is on town!dats + there is scum on it

No explanation given for why datisi is town, but not unusual for Dwlee.

I have to say that this might lean more towards a Datisi town rather than a Datisi scum for the nonchalant behavior.
UNVOTE: datisi

This is actually the only example of an explained read on datisi that I could find. This unvote actually earns takotsubo a townread from datisi, although I had mentioned I thought an unvote there, if the goal was a reaction test, rather than moving to another wagon was a llittle odd.

That appears to be your lot as far as why datisi can be town. There is a mention from gamma at 161, where they say they agree that datisi having different reads to marci is not a good reason to scumread datisi, and at 309 suggests they were happy to push bell because datisi also pushed them, while suggesting two others gamma found scummy, which would suggest an implied townread there, but the other mentions have been neutral at best

Not really thrilled with Datisi returning with a vote on marcistar.

Next mention of datisi by gorilla:

Somewhat confused that Datisi is still the lead wagon, and that most of the votes there are from RVS. The cakez vote on him is kind of bad. I prefer the marci votes to the ones on Bell, don't get why people are hopping there.

Meuh has this to say:

Datisi’s 260 looks pretty bad to me tbh. I’m conflicted on its alignment. His early posting which bothered people didn’t bother me but some of his more recent posting rubs me the wrong way. Still not particularly compelled to push there

Finally, bell:

Datisi, is just....Meh this game. They feel plain. But I don't know what to make of it.

This list might not be entirely comprehensive; but it's all the mentions I spotted while going through looking to see why the datisi wagon fell away, and it's enough to see the pattern.

TLDR: It wasn't quite true

nobody

was townreading datisi, but an awful lot of effort has been expanded shading slots on a wagon on someone who is, at the strongest read given, >rand town and 'meh', without anyone really sticking their neck out to defend datisi. I won't be shocked at all to see that flip scum and my vote is staying there for now.

[Val89]

Yes, I understand that, but as I said in the part of 532 you omitted, I think the same is a reason to be guarded about the exact state of your reads on every other slot in the game. Wanting your invictus shot to kill scum on a nightkill implies you will be pointing your gun at someone you find scummy (or null at best) and more importantly, that you won't be pointing it at someone you have come out as townreading.

Your argument is actually why

I

think it is a bad idea, but I am asking why Kovu thinks that's a bad idea, because they simultaneously seem to think providing a try-hard comprehensive read list wouldn't help scum in the same way.

[Val89]

Where do you stand on Datisi, Lukewarm?

[Val89]

I would say you have a reputation as being good town and would not be an easy misyeet

that is true.

Cool. When are we going to see good town!datisi, then?

Competing Val/Datisi wagons work me; perhaps then we might see this theoretical good town!datisi, and if not, at least people might be forced to nail their colours to the mast.

[Val89]

I find it weird that Val didn't reelly respond to anything Lukewarm said about him

That's not exactly true, but I don't blame you for getting that impression if you aren't following closely. I did respond to Lukewarm's case by asking him where he stood on Datisi.

The TLDR of the post I made before Lukewarm gave their case was that it appeared to me that a lot effort was being expanded to shade the datisi wagon, while nobody was really sticking their necks out to defend datisi. This, by the way, was the premise that datisi claims in 541 I am twisting thread events to fit, and very poorly at that.

This was lukewarm's reply:

I don't have a strong read on him (hence him not being on either my Do Not Kill list or my I Want to Kill list).

I am suspicious of the way the wagon formed on him, which makes me feel like he is more likely to be town.

I struggle to see 6 townies all deciding that he is scum by page 2 - especially since I did not get any scum pings on him at that time.

From then, I got the feeling that he was playing on his back foot, but I find that to be NAI.

I don't know about you, but that looks very much like Lukewarm is telling us he has a problem with the datisi wagon being scummy....without sticking his neckout to defend datisi. I can tell, or I can show, you know?

[Val89]

@Val - Do you have any scumreads on anyone aside from Datisi? Or any particularly strong townreads you could share? It's still pretty early but I don't think I could even make a guess at your opinions on anyone except about 4 people from what you've posted so far.

I understand part of the reasoning that is being deployed against me is that it appears as if I have a one-dimension focus on datisi, and that's fair. I don't see how it is scummy, but I agree it is an accurate description of my play in this game. I have to ask you, though, who actually benefits from me sharing other read at this point? Sure, perhaps it makes me a touch more readable to those who actually have the goal of reading me correctly, but if I were to become more widely townread, that would bring me up the list of NK targets, and I have already explained why having reads out there in that circumstance is a pretty-bad-idea(tm).

I don't like datisi. I've made no secret of that. I don't see many people saying they do. I do see people disliking the wagon and calling it scummy, but I know my reasons for joining it were genuine and my default position is to assume that others joining were also feeling the same off-vibes I were getting. Lukewarm says I "arbitrarily dismissed" the idea that scum could or would be on the datisi wagon, but I explained my reasoning there and it has been discussed by at least one other slot (188, 547), suggesting to me that what I sad was understandable to others. You might disagree with the logic, but the fact I arbitrarily dismissed it is simply untrue.

I am aware that others have to figure out whether or not I am scum simply bullshitting my read there, but I don't. I know we are either in the world where datisi is scum, and that's why he felt off to me and continues to do so, and why nobody can us why he is town without reference to a wagon others call shady but I know - for at least my part - wasn't or else datisi is town, and in that scenario I would think scum would be more than happy to jump all over what would then be a TvT shitfight, but, and I don't really have anything to hang this one other than another gut feeling - I don't get that impression.

The best way I think I can determine between the two is to continue to make this a me v datisi thing, and see what the mood of the room is, going forward. Maybe I am wrong and scum are happy with this game state, and there is a better sense of that looking back in a few days whether I am in the game or not, and even if this goes against me, my flip will let everyone know what I do re: the two worlds above in a way that can't be impeached. I will miss out on getting an invictus shot, but if scum are shooting at me, it'll be because I've shared reads that are wrong anyway.

TLDR: I respectfully decline.

[Val89]

It's still pretty early but I don't think I could even make a guess at your opinions on anyone except about 4 people from what you've posted so far.

Out of interest, however, who would those 4 be?

My read on datisi is no secret, that is one, and I know Kovu is the other slot people say I am focused on, but I stand what I said before:

Ill try my hardest to take Feys advice and leave that read alone for a bit.

If I've given the game away elsewhere without realising, I would like to know in case one of the other 3 happens to be my invictus target. If my target CAN be deduced anyway, that may change how I approach this.

[Val89]

Just want to point out that I waited at least 9 minutes after that list before I gut read SirCakez as scum.

[Val89]

I don't want Marci. I realise my opinion on the matter might not count for much when I've been floated as an alternative, but I'll give it, since my lack of involvement in the wagon so far is probably clue enough as gamma pointed out previously.

I got a slight town ping from 40, although I accept that sort of thing could come from scum surprised a made-up read was endorsed by a townie, I also think it would be some co-incidence to hit the same ping on the 8 players posted pre-marci entrance on page 1. My initial reaction to Lukewarms' push there was that is was opportunistic garbage, and seeing datisi wholeheartedly jump on and endorse it with 'lolscum' whilst trying to give justification (albeit shit ones) for everyone else sealed the deal for me that the case was crap. Having seen luke temper and then reverse it leads me to believe the case there was initially deliberately exaggerated and oversold, and in truth is probably +town for luke as well as marci.

I've been voting datisi since "RVS" too, although it was never actually an RVS vote. I've deliberately chosen to be cagey about my reads, which may have led to the impression there is a lack of scum hunting going on, too. Those are the reasons I see given for the wagon now, and I can't see them as scummy because I know there is at least one genuine thought process that results in those same outward signs.

I've not given too much though to LavarManos since I noted datisi's strange justification for that read, which when examined I strongly disagreed with, and thought had to be basically invented. I might have been hasty there, if for no other reason that nothing prevents scum from inventing reasons for giving a 'slightly scummy maybe?' read on a partner.

If this is the two we are going with;

VOTE: LavarManos

[Val89]

Every time Kovu posts, I have to consciously make a effort remind myself that assuming that there is just no way on Gods green earth that town can pull this volume of garbage and flit so quickly between thoughts is exactly what got me into trouble in the last Prism game I played.

I don't mean to come off as a prick, but if I'm going to have to make a read on this one way or another, someone who reckons they know how is going to have to tell me how I can possibly start to try and distinguish an actual spaff out everything, stream-of-consciousness not care if it passes the sniff test style of play from someone merely replicating it, because I don't trust that I have the skills myself to even try.

[Val89]

I struggle to see 6 townies all deciding that he is scum by page 2 -

It's also statements like this that make me think Lukewarm has a tenancy to oversell when pushing cases.

My initial reaction was to consider that a scummy reframe, but holding back for a while on it actually allowed me to see the parallels with the push on marci I thought was pants, and how both can come from town! Luke.

Not all the way there yet, but I don't definitely don't want marci.

[Val89]

You want me to weigh in on that?

I think those that have me pegged as normally a logical player who looks for inconsistenties and actions that don't match motivation have me right, which is one reason I am paying more attention to the fact I did have strong gut vibes this game something was off with particular slots, because of the relative rarity of that. It's also why Im struggling with Kovu, and why it's fair to say yes, I do often find myself relatively tunneled. If there is an aspect to it that is AI, I couldn't tell you, because my first few games I rolled town, and when I rolled scum I made a deliberate effort to replicate my town game as far as I can so it can't be used as AI. I don't see how you can play this game any different without gimping either your scum or town game, something I don't agree with doing so, so I think anyone telling you can read any aspect of their play as AI is either not performing their best at one alignment, or else lying to you.

As far as a narrow focus goes, that's probably a function of the fact that's its a large, and concentrating on all the details and all the interactions as I normally do is difficult.

I was pushed for the same sort of thing in Control, decided there was fuck all I could do about it, carried on and got vigged for the trouble. I figure if I get vigged here, at least I get a shot back. Given that my read accuracy on my D1 tunnel, when I listen to my head rather than my gut, has historicly been pretty shit, and better later on, I would rather keep things close to my chest.

[Val89]

I realise I've just made another large post in reply to that, and no doubt I'll get the comments along the lines of 'I was bored by val's post' I've been seeing pop up, reminding me why I didn't have a good time the last time I was town in one of these non-9 player games.

I suppose the proper rememdy is to stick to the minis, but I thought the invictus mechanic was interesting enough in that I get a chance to influence the game even if I do end up being misread or mislim/vig bait again.

I've made no secret of the fact I'm making a conscious decision to play this game differently. I've seen others say they disagree but I don't recall any actual conversation as to why. VP has a bit of a pop, but I wasnt convinced by the argument, nor am I sure on my read there. If you think we ought to have that conversation now, I can have it, but I'm not convinced it wouldn't just be a distraction right at this particular moment.

[Val89]

Don't have Big Thoughts.

My Big thought on the matter is that what answer could fire have been expecting?

I could have written exactly the same post as 857 as to my motivations for joining the lava wagon, substituting Datisi for own name, and I don't think I hid those motivation when voting.

I see fireisredsir opining that it was 'interesting' to look at those who joined the wagon but hadn't voted there before, then Lukewarm makes a post saying 'I still think Val is scummy', and fire immediately asks what Luke thinks of my vote, and repeats the question when he doesn't answer straight away.

I was wondering if fire was trying to lay the ground for Luke to say "yeah, that vote was scummy" and try and swing the wagon my way. I'm not sure there is evidence to conclude that was the motivation at the moment, but I do think the fact Luke answered another way is suggestive they aren't partnered.

[Val89]

Agreed, which is why I say the conclusion I make is that fire and Luke aren't likely to be scum together, because Lukewarm has already come out with a scumread on me, and there would be no need for scum!fire to lead that questioning to an answer from scum!luke other than "yes, val's vote was scummy" if the scum team had decided I was suitable mislim material, and I can't conclude either are actually scum.

Are you saying that fire and Luke not being scum together is also not a safe conclusion?

Pedit: this to bell

[Val89]

i dont like vals view of the invixtus mechanic because it reminds me of a diff game i played w him, but otherwise hes mid, he has some good thoughts

Would you mind explaining that? The only game I ever remember playing with you in it was that one I got in the shitfight of all shitfights with Luke, which is informing how I play around the invictus mechanic here. I would assume, having been a witness to that you would understand where my view on the invictus mechanic you say you dislike comes from.

Am I missing something, or there is a different game I don't remember off the top of my head?

[Val89]

Val, I'd like to hear more of your thoughts now that Datisi is dead.

I realise I am probably handing out a free mislim, but I think I am going to disappoint. I was obviously wrong about Datisi, and I'm glad that has been resolved early.

My main thought is that I have far too many null reads, and I have no reads stronger than a lean in either direction. I didn't have anytime to re-read overnight, but I think if there is anyone who can look me in the eye and tell me they have a strong handle on this game then they are either a much better player than me, or else are informed, frankly.

I changed my mind of Lukewarm over the course of the day yesterday, and the Lavar flip has done nothing to change my mind on the townlean I have on Marci. I had a couple of gut scum-pings, but I've just been reminded as to why I usually don't pay much heed to those.

[Val89]

I'm still willing, for today at least, to defer to the judgement of those whom claim to be able to read Kovu as town; and treat the slot accordingly; which means my townreads are almost the same as Mala here.

I have no idea why R&R is town for her, though. That's one slot I had a slight scumping on, but when I come to try and explain it from memory, all I can say is I didn't understand the purpose of the posting gimmick. If I am honest with myself, it's more accurately just another slot I don't have a clue about.

[Val89]

What does that mean, VP?

Is that the mafiascum.net equivalent of "come at me, bro?"

[Val89]

VOTE: SirCakez

[Val89]

I can see why Meuh is attracting votes.

[Val89]

Same
I think I've been doing a worse job at actually articulating my thoughts than I usually do

and also voting me is bad.

How do you make these two thoughts tally together?

[Val89]

Anyone else in that hood that can corroborate either way?

[Val89]

did u agree with lukes reasonings ooooor?

Yes. SirCakez was the slot most on my mind as being one of those either a better player, or else informed. Seeing Lukewarm express basically the same thought in different words convinced me to do something about it.

[Val89]

^ My opinion is similar, except I explicitly acknowledged the confidence on that read may well come from the fact you are a much better player.

But then, I see posts like 1309, and the fact you aren't reading me right pushes me to believe it's because you

knew

Lavar was town.

[Val89]

"you're reading me wrong so you're scum" is not exactly the most convincing of cases.

"You are reading me wrong when you managed read Lavar (who appeared was being treated very similarly to me) correctly with an huge degree of confidence, so you're more likely scum than a player with excellent reads in these circumstances" is convincing, at least for me.

[Val89]

Kovu, I think if you are going to continue to push RR here, you should explain why you are discounting what Mala said in 1252 and 1276.

That is sufficient for me to treat both those slots as town, at least for the day.

[Val89]

Kovu, are you fucking kidding ME right now?

[Val89]

Kovu, what exactly are you fucking playing at?

1346 suggests you didn't read or factor in Mala's posting today into your worldview but now I've explicitly pointed it out to you and you've gone off on one.

Will you PLEASE read said posting, and actually think what possible reason Mala might have for coming out with a 100% unambiguous town read on a slot that did nothing publicly to justify it, enough that it drew comment from me, and then double and triple down on it when you continued to push that read? Will you then think of what that means if one or either of them are actually scum?

I'll be honest with you, I was happy to defer to the judgement of others that you are just spaffing shit around without thinking, and that makes you town; but the exact shit you are spaffing now; pushing mala while publicly declaring your invictus to be on RR, that I am struggling to see it as an accident, and if it is and you are town, getting YOU off the board today is a better idea that letting you survive into the night.

Please take a few moments to think about that, and why I would say so before saying something like "well Val is obv maf with mala and RR too", huh?

[Val89]

tbh andante doesn't trust me as much as she should. I'm really not even sure if she read these posts at all.

She doesn't explicitly say so, but I am hoping her "I changed my mind" directly after my 1357 is indicative she understands what's what; but I think there has been enough discussion in thread that all of it can't have escaped the notice of scum, but it does appear to have flown bell by, so I'll spell it out:

Mala appears to be heavily softing some sort of clear on RR to me.

Just as I don't see how a scum!bell and scum!VP could intend to ride a fake N1 FN claim all the way to endgame, I would not expect scum!Mala to do that today, with minimal pressure on her slot, and if if she were scum, she would not chose to tie herself to a scum buddy in such a way. Ergo, unless I am completely wrong about that being a soft, in which case I expect Mala to correct me immediately, RR is as conftown as Bell is, and Mala isn't far behind.

[Val89]

I also feel very comfortable with my townread on Lukewarm. I'm treating Kovu as town for reasons previously discussed. I still think Marci is more likely town than not.

I don't pretend to be able to read enchant particularly well, but their votes and other content we have has all made at least sense to me, neither am I detecting any difference between enchant here and town!enchant in the games I have seen. I have some sympathy for the argument that enchant will be a difficult sort and we might need to consider dealing with it sooner or later, but I think they deserve more of a chance for something else to happen to make that alignment more clear, and I'm not interested in a vote there today.

I want people to actually start reading my posts, so I will give justification elsewhere, but I wouldn't vote Dunn today either. I could probably be convinced to join a wagon on anyone else not mentioned, but my strong preference is for SirCakez, as indicated by my vote.

[Val89]

Tbh I trust townies to out whatever information they have that would be pro-town to out. I'm not particularly interested in speculation about PRs because at best we derail the conversation from scumreading, and at worst we force people to out info that they shouldn't.
Unless there's a real advantage to discussing it (like with Lukewarm), that's not really something I want to delve into.

If you are talking about Mala, it's my view that it was so heavily implied it essentially is outed, and making sure everyone is explicitly aware of it, or else having my perception (which I suspect may well be shared by others) corrected if it is faulty; does assist in scum hunting by narrowing our PoE, particularly when I see bell voting Mala.

What exactly are you taking issue with here?

[Val89]

we should not assume clears on people unless we have explicit reason to believe so.

Yeah. I have one though:

This, after Mala does not include RR at all in her reads list going into N1:

R&R is the one who never voted besides me, however, they are town.

Both RR & I aren’t scum. Time will tell~

(In response to Kovu voting RR)

No bad.

*squirts water bottle*

Honestly, I can't understand what people were thinking who suggest Mala was softing

something

, but that something wasn't the knowledge of RR's alignment as town.

Personally, I think this has been telegraphed enough that Mala might as well say the words 'RandR are clear' and avoid any such doubts and the reason I say I expect Mala to correct me if I was wrong now is that I am absolutely treating both those slots as clear for at least today, and if I am not corrected I would take any future walk back in the vein of "oh no, I just felt really strongly about RR being town" as a scum claim.

I also think that even if this a play by a scum!Mala, she wouldn't pick a scum buddy here, so RR is town either way. The only RR can be scum is if a) town!mala was not softing a clear on RR, and the obvious +town thing to do here is to say "Val, you are barking up the wrong tree", as I've invited her to do, or b) scum!mala has painted a target on scum!RRs back, and if in (in my opinion) the very unlikely case Mala chose to do that when there was little to zero pressure on her slot, I'm not going to be sad about scum outting a buddy for free.

[Val89]

I also saw the Mala softs fwiw, I think it's to town's advantage to not have her clarify unless we receive significant pressure (or she does). You don't have to assume we're clear, but you should consider that it's a possibility.

Noted. Accepted.

For the record, I also believe Lukewarm's claim; one reason being that with the mod saying explicitly that there is EXACTLY ONE role which exceed the guidelines laid out, and for lukewarm to then pontificate they are that exactly one role invites a counterclaim if lukewarm is scum. Gorilla's attempt to throw shade in that direction is noted.

The names that come to mind are Cakez Kovu Val Mala Dwlee Luke, in no particular order. (And Bell, of course.)

I've had a quick skim, but unless I missed it, I don't see why Cakez either. I'm open to having my mind changed on that read if you thing there is something I ought to consider there.

[Val89]

...you do realize the role that exceeded the guidelines in the original game was a scum one, right?

I did not.

The fact there is exactly one means if it is a scum role in this game, that does remove the possibility they get CCd on that basis.

[Val89]

Town players tend to overvalue the info they have in my experience. I've definitely done it!

Who is it you are calling town, here?

[Val89]

meuh needs to have more scumreads imo

Looks to me like one of you are reading this as "more people ought to be scum reading meuh", and one you took it as "Meuh needs to tell us more people they find scummy".

I thought it was fairly obviously the second, but I can see a world it was taken differently.

[Val89]

Dwlee, can you give me a quick paraphrase of what you think Cakez reasoning on Dunn actually is?

One of the issues I have with SirCakez is I thought the way he treated pushing Dunn on D1 was worth at least an eyebrow raise ("dunn is scum because meta", "prove it", "I could easily", "go on then", "actually, I have different reasons now", etc).

I don't feel like I have a good reason to townread Dunn, and it is true that I would consider SirCakez most likley town on a scum!Dunn flip (and vice versa), but it's my belief that of the two, SirCakez is more likely to be scum. I don't know how I ought be reading you currently either, so if you are saying Cakez has convinced you Dunn is a good wagon here, helping me understand why might help me with both objectives.

[Val89]

Cakez point about Dunn is that Dunn had an OMGUS and derisive reaction to the push on him. This checks out across CONTROL where Dunn did it to Noraa (as The Three Bears hydra) pushing him

I was in the process of writing a post in reply about how I thought the derisive reaction to the push was basically Dunn asking SirCakez to come up with the receipts, and Cakez basically being unable and saying instead "I have different reasons now"; but when I've hit the ISO to give examples and re-read, I think I might have misunderstood the point myself.

I will look again.

[Val89]

@Dwlee; I'm looking at the combined ISO for Arcade Pals and The Three Bears, and I'm not seeing this derisive OMGUS you described. Looks to me like Dunn was voting the hydra well before the reverse, and Noraa (baby bear?) didn't have a lot to say on him or Arcade, but it's a huge game to sift through. Help me out with a post number?

I don't think this looks like slaughter hour Dunn. He was way more apathetic there.

In Slaughter Hour Dunn was scum who I spent a good amount of time pushing before he got killed
...[snip]...
then he IMMEDIATELY responds with OMGUS and starts trying to discredit me
EXACTLY what he's doing here guys

SirCakez using the same game to reach two different conclusions on Dunn's alignment is a bit odd, too, no?

[Val89]

Still can't find it, but I don't know if I know what exactly it is I am looking for. No obvious OMGUS, nor derision, is in evidence.

[Val89]

I already said this earlier but I'll reiterate that my read shifted from day 1 to day 2 bc Dunn started strong then had a wet flop of a day 2. I wasn't the only one who noticed his downshift d2 either.

Understood. Do you think Dwlee's paraphrase in 1680 was accurate?

Having realised I was mistaken about the timing of your comments about not arguing off activity anymore, and also the confidence you appeared to have in what turned out to be a shit read on Bell, I was willing to entertain the idea I might be wrong about you and look if there was anything in your push on Dunn, particularly as Dwlee claimed to have another example of scum!Dunn which fit; but a) I can't actually find in Control, and I am waiting to see if Dwlee can provide further particulars, and b) I'm still not entirely sure I understand your argument. What exactly do you mean by a "wet flop of a day 2"?

You said you could sheep gorillas vote at 1305 because it "feels more like [Dunn's] scum meta"; and then said in 1599 that "Dunn's reaction to me calling him scum is really bad. It's exactly how he'd play this as scum (and has happened before) and I'm about to go find the receipts to prove it." - but of course, your 1305, where you talk about Dunn's scum meta is the first time you publicly stated that shift in your read, so the scum!meta you are talking about can't be his reaction to being scum read, right?

What am I missing?

[Val89]

This isn't what I remember finding the first time but I think it fits the criteria

I guess we have widely different ideas of what would count as "derisive OMGUS", if you are trying to tell me that fits the bill for you.

i mean, i guess it's partly gut. but it is also something that bell said in spring fling, that dunn as town is more likely to be somewhat dismissive and sassy when points that he deems to be wrong are made against him, and scum dunn tends to be more focused on tearing the points down logically. which, i

I noted while I was looking through the Control combined ISO that the 'tell' Noraa said she had on Dunn was 'a lack of snark', which would tally with what you report here. Of course, having been caught as scum for that once before, I expect Dunn to bear that in mind in future.

[Val89]

Ya but going back to EoD1 wagons usually doesn't go great

This might be pertinent, with the other EoD1 wagon now sat on E-2.

What makes you say this, Cakez?

[Val89]

@fireisred: I don't need to know further details, but can you consider letting us know if you have any idea what Kovu is talking about, and if you concur with the assessment.

I worry that the more times I see Kovu poping in with this sort of obviously antitown play; the business with RR/Mala, the fucking around with Luke, and now this, the more I wonder if it's actually deliberate.

[Val89]

@fireisred: I don't need to know further details, but can you consider letting us know if you have any idea what Kovu is talking about, and if you concur with the assessment.

I worry that the more times I see Kovu poping in with this sort of obviously antitown play; the business with RR/Mala, the fucking around with Luke, and now this, the more I wonder if it's actually deliberate.

ill say that i know what she's talking about and that i don't want to lim cakez today

Thank you. There is so muchcoming from hat makes me

[Val89]

@fireisred: I don't need to know further details, but can you consider letting us know if you have any idea what Kovu is talking about, and if you concur with the assessment.

I worry that the more times I see Kovu poping in with this sort of obviously antitown play; the business with RR/Mala, the fucking around with Luke, and now this, the more I wonder if it's actually deliberate.

ill say that i know what she's talking about and that i don't want to lim cakez today

Thank you. There is so much crap coming from that slot that makes it difficult to know what to pay attention to and treat seriously.

UNVOTE:

[Val89]

I could kill Mala here

I'm not interested in that today. I understand you have expressed the notion that you think the softing is a potential bluff at 1489; and I do think there is something in the idea that there are a few too many potential clears knocking around, but I don't think today is the day to be charging about forcing that, when the target of that bluff, from your point of view, had this to say:

I also saw the Mala softs fwiw, I think it's to town's advantage to not have her clarify unless we receive significant pressure (or she does). You don't have to assume we're clear, but you should consider that it's a possibility.

Ask me again tomorrow, I might feel differently, but I won't support a wagon on Mala (or RR) today.

[Val89]

Where are you getting they have to be 1-shot, or is that an assumption you are making based on what you think would pass review?

[Val89]

@Marci, will you commit to planting your invictus on gorilla overnight if Dunn dies today?

Why marci here, Luke?

[Val89]

I'll say marci has dropped off a little for me over the course of the day, but I have difficulty taking your pushes seriously when you basically say things like "I'm so town, expressing a scumread on me is a scumclaim!". It doesn't come close. I also know for a fact that being parked on datisi D1 wasn't necessary scum indicative either.

I'm still inclined to believe we are dealing with a town!Lukewarm. I admit that I hadn't clocked the claim was a vig, and for some reason I thought it was probably some sort of protective (I think I got that mostly from the idea that 'it didn't make sense to pair with a scum read' and the WIFOMy 1438) and the points made about how the play seems odd from a town perspective did give me some cause to reassess. I've also had a thought regarding chaining Invictus and if the role claimed could possibly make sense with respect to resolving the night actions, and if it's something that even makes sense to exist, but I've decided I don't know enough about action resolution is 'normal' games to reliably draw conclusions on that, and some of the other mech-minded individuals would probably have said something already if that was true.

I've been watching Luke's responses, however, and they have at least made sense to me in that I can still track how town!Luke could legitimately come to the play we have seen today around the claim; and on balance I fall on the side of being willing to believe this is still town!luke, particularly since I had already come to a town read on play prior to the claim. I certainly am more dubious about it than I was a couple pages ago.

[Val89]

Weighing up the Dunn/Dwlee wagons; I had been looking at both with the idea of working out which I would join even before I was given cause to unvote SirCakez, and I was initially leaning more towards Dwlee, with the hang up being that I was (and still am) unsure about some of the characters on it.

I disliked Dwlee's push on Dunn on the basis of the 'Cakez' reasoning, which on examination turned out not to be the cakez reasoning at all. I don't really have an issue with this, because in the process of looking into it, I realised I had also been mistaken about the nature of Cakez' Dunn read; but I do dislike the fact that I couldn't find the example Dwlee told us was in Control, and when I asked specifically I just can't see how Dwlee thinks the example posts provided match even the mistaken criteria of a 'derisive OMGUS'.

Putting that aside, it does feel like they have come alive recently, and I had the same thought when Bell pointed out Dwlee was the 'easiest' wagon was probably not a good sign.

Dwlee - I am paying attention to what you are saying, but it's coming a little too late for me to know how much stock to place in it until I am comfortable with your alignment, which might well take your flip. In the meantime, I am going here.

VOTE: Meuh

[Val89]

It wasn't because you said it. We obviously have very different ideas as to what rises to the level of a scum claim.

No, being parked on Datisi D1 wasn't necessary scum indicative, and I know that for a absolute fact. I am sure you are smart enough to figure out how I know that. It's possible there was a scum motivation for doing so in marci's case, but it's not something that comes from scum exclusively.

Pedit - @kovu

[Val89]

VOTE: VP Baltar

[Val89]

I, too, would like to see what happens.

Why shouldn't I be voting you?

[Val89]

Fuck it, full claim time it is then, because this does seem like far too much power to be reasonable.

I am a Novice Traffic Analyst.

Anyone else in that hood that can corroborate either way?

There was reason I asked this, Kovu.

VOTE: SirCakez

[Val89]

Traffic analyst gets a result on what, friendly neighbor, both neighbors, the neighborizor, and whoever they add to their neighborhood?

I don't know about the FN; my results indicate whether someone is able to communicate privately with a living player. Whether or not a FN counts didn't occur to me. I though Mala & RR were Masons, acting as another false guilty, and that plus the neighbourhood and the novice modifier (the fact that lukewarm also claimed novice - although apparently falsely - was another reason I was predisposed to believe that claim) was enough to temper the power level. Add in a detective as well, though....

The last prism game I played in had scum-in-the-hood as a mechanic; so I was looking hard at kovu and fireisredsir, but couldn't make it work.

Val, did you check someone who is still alive?

I did not; I had suspicions that something was off about VP, but realised I had found myself on the same wagon pretty often, so I wanted to check there and be clear with what was up going into today. My other choice was Dwlee, but decided there was a high change of them getting Invictus'd - something I've been vindicated over - so I was fucked either way.

[Val89]

11. SirCakez - Neighborizer (Kovu N1, Bell N2)

Don't think this can be correct. Kovu referenced a discussion they had with fire about Lava's alignment pre-flip, which suggests they had to both be in the hood on D1.

Can we have confirmation from someone in the hood, please?

[Val89]

UNVOTE:

[Val89]

What makes you think a neighbouriser, in a game with a pre-existing hood and a traffic analyst, is more likley a town role than scum?

[Val89]

I Would like other people's thoughts on the above if you have time and/or you've got a strong opinion on either of Fey/Dunn

I agree on Fey. I would be happy to lim there today.

I'm not so sure about Dunn. I've seen multiple pushes at him now, and I've never really seen any that persuaded me to consider placing a vote there. I feel the same about the case you make here. I don't have a strong town read here either, but I don't really think limming Dunn today is the play.

What makes you think a neighbouriser, in a game with a pre-existing hood and a traffic analyst, is more likley a town role than scum?

This was directed at Kovu, and I would be grateful for an answer when you get around to it, but I am happy to hear anyone else (including Cakez) who wants to weigh in on this.

[Val89]

Every single one of my scumreads is getting hard shielded by people and it is getting to be incredibly tiresome. I will try to find a working compromise but if that's not possible I'm going to mentally check out of this game.

Explain?

Not gonna lie, that seems like an overreaction to me saying I don't want to do Dunn today, particularly when I say I don't TR him. Least you forget, I am a still-functioning investigative, and you area claimed protective, no?

[Val89]

I mean, when your top TR puts you in a hood with them, yeah you're pretty certain they're town, not sure what the question is here. Like this is just like what Dunn asked, why would I jump to SRing the role, when I TR the person.. so thus I TR the role...

At the start of today, you said this:

but yeah, I’m literally putting the info out that Cakez is not town at all.. I did Tr him D1 yes, I Tred his role too, but here we are

The answer you give here is not what I got from this post. You TRd him D1, got it, and you were predisposed to be happy when he added you to the hood as a result; but you say here you "TRd his role too";

too

, not as a result. Why?

[Val89]

FYI if Dunn flips town everyone’s invictus shot needs to go on sircakez.

Isn't that what we said about Fey as well?

Who do we want in the hood tonight if we aren't flipping SirCakez today, bearing in mind that removes my ability to cop them for the remainder of the game? General question to everyone.

[Val89]

I am happy with that, if SirCakez doesn't go today.

Anyone get different ideas?

[Val89]

I don’t really want to shoot Fey. Because they…did whatever it is they did.

I'm not sure I understand the later part, but my point was that the idea was floated of pointing our guns at SirCakez if Fey flipped town today; not that we should shoot Fey; and if we have two slots for whom a town flip would point to scum!Cakez...

Are you saying you think there are good reasons to take Fey off the table today as well?

[Val89]

VOTE: SirCakez

[Val89]

Hey so have any of yall looked at the VCs? like, Dunn looks TERRIBLE just looking at those, like, I'm pretty certain dunn flips red.

If you want to go ahead and indicate which VCs and why, I'll take a look.

[Val89]

UNVOTE:

[Val89]

What am I not authorised to view the links in Gamma's 2441?

[Val89]

Kovu, while we are waiting, might sharing what you think you spotted in the VCs with respect to Dunn?

I spotted that because I'm re-evaluating there.

[Val89]

I also want to add on to my point that I wouldn't have neighborized conftown if I were scum here - not only did I neighborize conftown, but I neighborized BELL

I would have brought a scum buddy in if I was scum here and I would have easily gotten away with it because Kovu literally gave me like five options to choose

Who were the other 4?

[Val89]

Also, I thought scum didn't have daytalk?

What makes you say this?

[Val89]

I also want to add on to my point that I wouldn't have neighborized conftown if I were scum here - not only did I neighborize conftown, but I neighborized BELL

I would have brought a scum buddy in if I was scum here and I would have easily gotten away with it because Kovu literally gave me like five options to choose

Who were the other 4?

Kovu, you can probably answer this one for me.

[Val89]

Cakez, I think there might be some merit in the idea scum!you might be less likley to bring Bell in.

In order to evaluate that properly, I would like to know who the alternatives you were presented with, please.

[Val89]

I also think Cakez is scum and I'd rather resolve that first

What's changed in the last 12 hours?

[Val89]

…But I’ll UNVOTE: to avoid day ending early.

It was your vote that put the day end in reach...

What's your thinking here?

[Val89]

You are lucky it wasn't an accidental hammer then, if you didn't bother to count.

I still think we are more likely to hit scum in Fey/SirCakez, and I think I'll be more likely to check somewhere on the Dunn wagon in the event he flips town.

@Enchant, who would have been your choice in SirCakez shoes, and why?

[Val89]

VOTE: Fey

[Val89]

Really just feel like ATP it’s Gamma furiously trying to cover for his partners who aren’t like. Doing anything.

Partners, plural?

I can see where the surface level idea that "scum!gamma is trying to protect enchant, who isn't doing anything" might come from, but what about the game state makes you think there are multiple partners in that category, and who could they be?

[Val89]

Yeah lmao.

Feels like a post that long is best served to a team asking “this good folks?”

On the subject of scum!gamma, you working theory of a few pages ago is that, while acknowledging the possibility of origination from the notes pt, you thought it was a scum slip because its the type of post best served posted in a team pt if you had access to one, but after mod confirmation it did indeed come from a notes pt, your thought is "still scum though"?

[Val89]

OK, but having said specifically that it was the sort of post that is best served in a team pt if you had access to one, finding out that it didn't hasn't made you think that's indicative gamma doesn't have access to team PT, like, at all?

[Val89]

I don’t think we should talk about this topic further than that though for previously stated reasons.

What previously stated reasons are those? I must have missed them.

Ultimately it’s just something I’ve thrown away thinking about and I’ve moved my vote away from there for now to someone else who has better odds imo of being mafia.

You UNVOTED gamma the second Prism confirmed they came from a notes pt, first, before anyone else. You didn't wait to see if anyone else was going to come to the same conclusion you tell us you have, that gamma was still scum. Despite saying you were glad because it brought attention to the idea of a scum!gamma that wasn't otherwise gaining traction, you were out in front of jumping off that wagon as quick as possible.

After which, your vote was floating until 24 hours later when Kovu and Meuh started indicating they were thinking of moving on Enchant.

I think its a important topic of discussion because I don't think I can make it make sense from a town!you point of view without you talking me through your thought process further.

pedit: I want to trust you, RR, but I really can't see it. If you have a reputation of reacting to pressure a certain was as scum, would you not be playing against wincon if you didn't attempt to replicate that as scum?

[Val89]

pedit: I want to trust you, RR, but I really can't see it. If you have a reputation of reacting to pressure a certain way as town, would you not be playing against wincon if you didn't attempt to replicate that as scum?

EBWODP

[Val89]

OK.

As long as you can tell me you can see some possible legitimate thought process that leads to Fey jumping off the gamma wagon first as soon as the thread is unlocked while still thinking gamma is scum, instead of trying to make everyone else see it while attention (and a decent wagon) was on that slot.

Don't need to know what it is, just that's you've considered it and you aren't playing hope mafia in this game.

[Val89]

Understood.

UNVOTE:

My second choice would be for cakez, but I am happy to give him a chance to go through whatever test is have in mind for him. If both Fey and Cakez are off the table, then I won't oppose Dunn today, but I think that's a slot that would be at the top of the list for an invest otherwise.

[Val89]

we have no invests left... they're either dead or used all their shots..

?

[Val89]

For the avoidance of doubt, you do realise I am still a live and active invest, for everyone not already claiming to be in a hood, right, Kovu?

[Val89]

Hello future ghost.

I think Kovu is the potentially the only player for whom that fact slipped by, if that was in fact legit. If the entire scum team missed it, they deserve to lose.

[Val89]

Imo, probably will again be solo, but will stay here before gorilla claiming n2.

What are you hoping to achieve by having gorilla claim their N2?

Can sircakez die now since he is not producing anything.

+1.

[Val89]

Why didn't you protect X is a legitimate question, although not to speak for gorilla, I think the answer to that one is rather obvious, given the interactions between the two D2.

Asking gorilla to claim who they were on instead seems to risk leaking info that might be useful to scum for not a lot of town benefit, to me.

To be clear, I harbour a little bit of paranoia toward gorilla myself, but it's not someone I expect to endgame with that claim. It's one that is likley to resolve itself either way and soon.

[Val89]

Ok I'll throw you a bone

How about just answering the question?

You've been invited to do so twice now. This will be the third.

[Val89]

Yeah, this is one I would be prepared to compromise on as well. Point 1 is fairly convincing.

Just remember SirCakez is off the table as fair as a check goes, and a scum!cakez can fuck with whom I am able to check going forward.

[Val89]

I do too, but can you imagine the WIFOM we will be engaged with tomorrow if he adds Gorilla or something like that; and then claims, perhaps legitimately, doing so with the agreement of Kovu?

I guess Bell being in that hood tempers that somewhat, but the fact of the matter remains I can't provide an answer on SirCakez in the same way I can will almost anyone else being (seriously) floated as scum today, and a flip is the only way that slot gets resolved before endgame.

[Val89]

VOTE: SirCakez

I count that as 4 votes on Cakez.

The pool of realistic non-"deep wolf" suspects is small enough to me that I think there has to be some busing going on somewhere when essentially all of them have had some sort of wagon of various sizes on them today.

[Val89]

I want Cakez today.

Earlier today, you had this to say.

Without an actual cakez clear they’re unsalvagable to me this game.

I am in a similar position. I imagine at this point anyone following the game with a reasonable degree of closeness can deduce the PoE I have in mind, since it ends up being fairly similar to the others I've seen floated, so I probably not giving the game away to say that PoE (in no particular order) is Cakez, Fey, Enchant, Meuh and Dunn, with gamma on the edge where I think there are reasons to think they are probably town, but I'm not sure of that.

Of that PoE, there is exactly one name that I absolutely cannot get a clear (or guilty) on. Any of the others, there is at least the potential I could have a definitive answer for everyone one way or another by tomorrow.

[Val89]

VOTE: Fey

That's the exact opposite of sheeping RR, here.

I'm not sure I trust your motives anymore, but if you are actually are unaligned and your objective really is just to get someone other than yourself in PoE flipped here so we can move on, I would suggest SirCakez is your best bet.

[Val89]

I did mean it in the sense that you aren't pushing an agenda, yes.

I am sure you can understand when I see you outwardly say essentially "anyone but me" (I can see that as townie), and implore us to just condense and get a flip, but then float both Dunn and Fey as the ones you would rather start with and avoid what I believe is still largest wagon.

[Val89]

You might be correct - I didn't go back and count, hence why I said 'I believe'.

How many people were voting for Fey?

Out of the 4 conf town or near universal townreads there's
-One who isn't really around

That'll be RR, I presume.

-One who seemingly has little to no confidence in his reads; but proposed a group to make a decision, that clearly is not going to make one

Bell, right?

-Two who are voting for me

The 3 voting you are Gorilla, Fire, Kovu.

Which of those 3 are you NOT counting as a 'near universal townread', to get 4 total?

[Val89]

Who do you consider to be scumreading Gorilla, and why did you distinguish that slot from the other two also voting voting?

Are you scum reading gorilla?

Presumably your point with that post is you started a new wagon on Fey (nobody was voting her, I've just gone back to answer that question myself) because you didn't feel like there was anyone you could really sheep; correct?

[Val89]

voting you*

[Val89]

Fair. My concerns are assuaged, to borrow a term.

[Val89]

but the point about an Enchant lim needing to happen at some point is very true.

What am I, exactly?

I understand the point about a common Invictus target going into tonight (and the probability of guns pointing that way increase every night in) isn't a good thing.

I'm not opposed to this in principle.

[Val89]

VOTE: Enchant

E-1.

[Val89]

Which town do you think have been shielding which mafia, exactly?