Micro 66 - Robo's F11 (Game Over)

[TraceyLyn11]

I have a few things to say.

First,

Robo, this is supposed to be micro game, not a mini.

Second, VOTE: Klick for being the towniest looking scum I've ever seen. I KNOW WHAT YOU LOOK LIKE. I SHALL NOT FALL FOR THEE.

Third, I DON'T KNOW ECONOMY. STOP MAKING ME FEEL DUMB.

Fourth, RQS anyone? Might as well treat this like a regular newbie game, amirite? (I call being the IC)

1. Nickname you'd like to go by?
2. Gender?
3. Times you'll likely be able to post? Or not post.
4. Thoughts on meta?
5. Thoughts on reaction fishing?
6. How do you feel about walls? Do you make them?
7. Are you scum?

1. Just Tracey is fine. DON'T FORGET THE 'e'!
2. Female, sixteen.
3. I can post everyday. During the weekends my times of availability fluctuate. I'll probably be on later in the evening during those days, though. During the week I have school, so I won't be able to post large posts until I get home (3 pm). After that it depends. I do have my phone, but it depends on my laziness level whether I'll post with it or not.
4. I try not to use it, but I generally do end up using it. I like it if it's used to further an argument; not if it's the basis of the argument.
5. Love it, use it, enjoy when others use it.
6. I make walls often, I'm fine when others make walls.
7. Yes sir!

And finally, my computer has been all funky as of late, and I have to go through this whole process of recovering it and what-not. So my ability to post will be somewhat limited until my computer situation is all worked out.

[TraceyLyn11]

lol what would I do without you, thanks

<3

[TraceyLyn11]

If you have too much to say every time you post, you haven't been posting regularly enough, so stop lurking, lurky.

You haven't met me yet!

Also, my bad. Meant to add "Age?" in the RQS under number two.

[TraceyLyn11]

oh my god guys, I just did a gallon of lemonade challenge and I feel soooooooooo bad

VOTE: Tracey for RQS. serious vote.

Finally. I was surprised so many people went along with the RQS.

Klick is town.
UNVOTE:

Riggs gives me bad vibes from:

"I'm not [scum], but I'll let you guys decide if my actions prove that."

VOTE: Riggs

Bandwagon please!

Why did you vote me, Mala?

Cheery also gives me bad vibes from his posting without saying anything of significance.

I found both scums, guise.

[TraceyLyn11]

@Mit: I do RQS as both alignments. I made that statement because there's often one or more people who tend to state their dislike for RQS or the lack of benefits from it - those people tend to be the experienced players (note: I only really play in newbie games, so those are the games I'll be referring to). Since this is a game of predominantly (or all) experienced players, I expected more complaining. Instead I got several people who willingly responded, one who found it necessary to point out he couldn't respond so he wasn't, and one who actually disagreed with it. The lack of complaints towards the RQS made me uneasy.

As for PM, why do you think he voted undecided? I'll go out on a limb and say it was a reaction fish. Looks to me like PM got a bite (yes, I did just make that analogy). Why do you think voting undecided was scummy? You mentioned voting for a no lynch or not voting would be better - would either of those achieve better results? What's different from PM saying he's undecided compared to Cheery saying he wasn't going to vote due to not remembering the players names? Both were useless statements.

@Cheery: Why was the RQS insignificant, and why did you choose to say that you couldn't do the RQS (because you were on your phone) rather than you wouldn't (because it was insignificant)?

@Riggs: It was scummy because it seems like you're trying way to hard to appease us.

[TraceyLyn11]

@Cheery: Will respond to other stuff later, but I wanted to say this before someone else beat me to the punch:

You have two scum reads, but you vote the one who's on V/LA?

Cheery's the better vote. WAGON HO!
VOTE: Cheery

[TraceyLyn11]

@Mit: There was no point in Cheery making his comments, though, other than to seem more active than he was. He could have easily gone on and not said anything until he got to a computer. Instead, he chose to tell us what he

couldn't

do. You may choose to compare this to your thoughts on PM, but meta reasoning and reaction fishing leads me to believe PM is unlikely scum. If your thoughts did jump to PM, then why are you writing Cheery off as unknown and PM as scum?

You say there's no point in switching your vote between equally scummy players unless one is closer to a lynch; Cheery now has my vote. Care to join me, or are you all talk and no walk?

Why are you scared of a wagon forming immediately?

@Cheery: I understand why you didn't do the RQS/vote. I have no complaints about that. What I don't like is your announcing that you couldn't. For a more mafia-appropriate term, your post was fluff. There was no point to your post.

Why do you have town reads on Taz, PM, and Riggs? Why do you have less of a town read on Mit and I? Why do you have null reads on Mala, Klick, and Commie? Why would you vote someone with no votes? Doesn't more pressure = more information? Isn't information good for the town?

@Klick: I've only been in two scum games, one of which was my second game on site (i.e. not good for meta reasons) and lost almost intirely to the crash (all but a small portion of day one). However, here is my second scum game (very recent, too): http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=23207 Don't judge me. I probably could have done much better if the time constraints weren't there.

I also don't understand you're reasoning for ignoring PM's meta, so I'm not going to do so. I'm wary of Mala so readily following you. Especially since I'm sure you're both referring to 434.

I am also wary of Cheery pretending (seemingly, anyways) to go along with it.

Mit gets town points for asking.

I don't like how Cheery is using process of elimination so early, nor how he feels it necessary to say his reads aren't concrete.

I'm liking my vote. Follow me.

[TraceyLyn11]

Why? Because he said something that is ridiculously easy to fake as scum?

[TraceyLyn11]

I want to hear from Commie. He's online.

[TraceyLyn11]

It feels natural and unnecessary to fake. No one else noticed it, did they?

I hope they did - I pointed it out pretty quickly after he posted it.

[TraceyLyn11]

No you didn't.

Cheery also gives me bad vibes from his posting without saying anything of significance.

[TraceyLyn11]

@Commie: I don't know how else I would mean uneasy? This isn't me being sassy; I actually don't understand.

Your vote feels incredibly sheepy, and you've been online for awhile. Why are you sheeping me and why did you not post your short post sooner?

@Klick: You said no one else noticed that post. I pointed out that I called out its insignificance. I guess I misunderstood what you meant.

He would have had a name (though it's not certain that he would even remember their's, let alone how to spell it), but that doesn't mean he couldn't have faked it and said he didn't. It's not hard to do that and it's as simple as, "Huh. I don't remember anyone's names. Oh wait! My partner so-and-so. But voting a partner in RVS can be scummy. I'll pretend I don't know anyone's names." Literally as easy as pi(e?). I don't understand why you're saying it's a town tell (more or less).

PEDIT: God damn it. You're town.
UNVOTE:

Hmm.
VOTE: Commie He is my new victim.

[TraceyLyn11]

VOTE: Commie I can agree with that vote, as well as the reasoning, for now.

Yaaaaay.

Why did you add "for now"? Seems fairly unnecessary.

[TraceyLyn11]

Because I'm waiting for PM to respond before I reveal another suspicion.

I'm happy with this answer. You're still town.

@Mit: Withholding information isn't scummy. But for seemingly no reason and with two people following a silly comment, it is. Unfortunately I have a town read on Klick and a probtown read on Cheery. Unsure of Mala. This could just be town reaction fishing rather than scum taking advantage of looking like they're reaction fishing.

I absolutely want a wagon to form early. Am I scum?

He's town because he had absolutely no reason to correct Klick. I've done that as scum before to earn towncred, but I don't think that this is one of those instances.

You were about to switch to Cheery. Why can't you switch to Commie?

[TraceyLyn11]

Let me qualify. A wagon forming early is fine, in and of itself. But if it's formed spuriously, it's not. Aggressiveness is not scummy,

manipulating the direction it takes, is.

You seem to be happy with the existence of a wagon

as long as it's on your scummiest read

, so, no, I don't think you're scum.

And I already said why I'm not switching to Commie yet. I want more clarifications on the PMyst thing. Which he can do himself, when he posts next. If that satisfies me, I'll move my vote appropriately.

Bolded: Isn't making sure the wagon is on my strongest scum read manipulating the direction of the wagon? I'll ask again, Am I scum?

I understand your reasoning for not voting Commie. I just don't understand why you were willing to vote Cheery without the reasoning, but now that you want to vote Commie, you have this reasoning.

[TraceyLyn11]

@Commie: It very much was sheeping. You copied almost exactly what I said without adding any input of your own on that or the rest of the game. It looked like you were sheeping without trying to look like you were sheeping.

I have Klick as a town read because what he's saying is townish. Do you disagree with my read?

[TraceyLyn11]

@Mit: You ignored my other question. Or, implied question, I guess.

"I understand your reasoning for not voting Commie. I just don't understand why you were willing to vote Cheery without the reasoning, but now that you want to vote Commie, you have this reasoning."

[TraceyLyn11]

Yeah, sorry, was answering Commie too, so I kind of missed that.
I was willing to vote Cheery after post 47 and later ones. Same reasoning as yours. By the time I saw that post though, the wagon had already crumbled. Is that what you are asking?

No. I'm asking why you were willing to vote Cheery without getting answers about or from PM, but in order to vote Commie, you needed that information?

[TraceyLyn11]

Okay, anything you guys like to ask me?

I would like you to look closely at

Tracey

the entire thread and tell me your read of

her

everyone.

Do what Klick said, too, yeah, but five pages you can read easy.

I'd post more, but my mom is bribing me to do my homework. More if I have time tonight - if not, more tomorrow.

[TraceyLyn11]

What about what he's saying is townish? And to answer your question, I have a null read. So yes.

He's questioning everyone, he's doing his own thing, and he's not doing a ridiculous amount of reaction fishing. I've only played in one game with him - I don't remember his meta from that game. However, I just modded a game where he was scum, and his meta seems different compared to that. He was much more... Involved? in that game. And he just seemed like he was enjoying it more. I don't know, it's hard to explain. Gut tells me he's town.

Tracey switched

his

vote.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. I am a

she

, thanks.

Tracey I totally understand the way you feel regarding PM/Klick thing, but you'll have a better understanding of why I did it.

It was silly reasoning. I still don't think it was entirely justified. Though, I am happy that you announced it before Klick - this leads me to believe you weren't just going along with it.

Here's the explanation.

Cheery's origianl actions had been as scummy as PMyst's. I had said back then that if Cheery did something scummier, I'd switch to him. That wagon crumbled before I had a chance to do so. Also, Klick said what he said about not using PMyst's meta.

I need a reason for that, but this (from my PoV) came after the Cheery wagon had crumbled.

I think that Commie's actions were less scummy than those of Pmyst, Cheery and Klick. If I get a good explanation on the meta thing, I can start over with Commie. Clearer?

Well a, the bolded is awful. B, the underlined is just all of my WUT. When Klick made his post telling everyone to hold off on how they think of Myst, there was one vote on Cheery - me. No one else had been on him before that. There was only one post between mine and Klick's post - Cheery's. From NO point of view can it be said the wagon crumbled by the time Klick made his request. C, you think Cheery and Klick are tied with Myst and ahead of Commie... Yet you want to vote Commie? He doesn't even have the most votes! What logic is this? And why is it that you seem to believe whatever Klick would reveal (now it's been revealed, but it wasn't before this post of yours) would make Myst seem more townish? I don't believe Klick has eluded to that at all, and yet you're saying that as soon as Klick reveals it, you'll switch to Commie.

A dig at my town read. And a dig at the person who asked for his reads.
Let's assume you want to eventually vote to get rid of a person who questions you, he being Mitilos, and a person who asks good questions, she being Tracey. This assumption and your sudden appeal to a disposition of laziness bear bad on ya

VOTE: Cheery Dog

Keep in mind that Mit and I were the most active and said the most. Therefore, he would have had more information to compare with being scummy. I.e. I don't think his less-of-a-town-reads on us are all that odd.

Notice the connection that Cheery Dog mentally has of Klick and scumteam.
That out of place quip tells us his inner psyche's condition. He is conditioned to associate Klick with scumteam.
Pavlovian association due to what?
Klick being his partner perhaps
Perhaps indeed...

No.

This is the reason why I agreeded with Klick comment regarding PM.
Depending on the experience of the scum team they might or might not know how to read PM.
Those who have played with PM knows he's very readable depending on alignment and he cracks easily under pressure.

Wat. If he's very readable, then it doesn't matter who's played with him before and who hasn't; he's very readable to everyone. Even if they aren't very experienced, they should know the basics of what scum do and what town do; we're not in the newbie forum after all.

[Mit]'s squirming regarding the PM comments which is making me uneasy and want to watch him more.

This.

But the trap is meaningless. I gave reasoning for a read I had. Klick claimed that I should drop it, without giving any explanation. You supported him in this. Why, exactly, would you expect me to be satisfied with that and go "Oh, all right, sure, let's forget about this"?

That would be a scummy thing to do anyway

, as it would be trying to blend in and appease. If someone else pressed you for an explanation, I might accept it. But since I was the one who attacked PMyst, your "trap" is flawed.

Anyway, I'd rather hear something from PMyst himself.

It's almost like you're trying to protect him from the rest of us.

Bolded: Scum tend to have a heightened awareness of what would appear scummy and what wouldn't.

Underlined: Mala was literally just saying how she thinks it's likely you and Myst could be partners. How is that protecting him? And who's the rest of us? You?

Based on [Myst's] second post, I'm already leaning in one direction.

And that would be?

Tracey, start slow.

No. Because then Myst will respond to what you asked and the conversation will entirely switch gears. He's in this game, I know he can be more active than he is being, and I know he can read five pages. Therefore, I expect him to do so - just like I'd expect anyone else to do so.

Also @Myst: Could you explain why you voted undecided, as opposed to the other options, like voting somebody randomly, not voting, or voting no lynch?

Why haven't you voted Commie yet?

and the boring question everyone asks, how will these so called partner tells relate

when I flip town?

From my experience, scum tend to like to state in thread that they are town. How do you feel about this?

Klick has taken over my secondary suspicion spot, but my reads all currently based on the individual's postings.

Why? For Klick, I mean.

VOTE: Mit Time to add some pressure!

[TraceyLyn11]

My PoV implies the sequence of events based on my timing. I left. Things happened. I returned. The part where I would have voted for Cheery and the part where I no longer would happened within that timespan.

Also, Klick said what he said about not using PMyst's meta.

I need a reason for that, but

this

(

from my PoV

) came

after

the Cheery wagon had

crumbled

.

It doesn't look like that's what you were saying. It looks like "this" was in reference to the sentence before it, the sentence about Klick requesting we ignore Myst's meta.

No, I think that Cheery and Myst were tied, followed by Commie, then Klick. But Cheery did new things and fell back.

I think that Commie's actions were less scummy than those of Pmyst, Cheery and Klick. If I get a good explanation on the meta thing, I can start over with Commie.

I don't understand why you keep contradicting yourself. Here you group Myst, Cheery, and Klick together in what I assumed to be equal amounts of scumminess (though for this, whether they're tied or not is irrelevant. What's relevant is you saying Commie was less scummy than those three).

PMyst is still at the top, since he's not responding, so I'm still voting him.

So now you're voting him based on his inactivity? It looks as though you're just finding excuses to continue to push him. I don't really understand why. I'm not seeing the benefits for scum to do so as his partner or not as is partner. Except maybe that we're calling you out on it, and you're forced to stick to your guns. And I'm certainly not seeing the town motivation.

And no, I specifically said that Myst was to talk, before I'd switch to anyone else.

I'd like some answers from

or

about PMyst, before I consider switching to him.

I want more clarifications on the PMyst thing.

Which he can do himself

, when he posts next. If that satisfies me, I'll move my vote appropriately.

You're right. I was remembering you saying "or" in post #69, and totally forgot about post #71. Looking back though, it's interesting that you changed your argument.

That's quite a few misreps in one go...

Hardly! You keep contradicting yourself.

Re 104: How am I squirming? I want PMyst to respond. He's lurking and everyone seems content to let it slide. Stop enabling potential scum.

You're squirming because ever since Klick made the request, you've been all over why. That's not really the scummy part, though. My issue is with how you keep making comments about saying you'll switch off of Myst, but then you find excuses not to. It's weird, and I don't understand it. For pressure's sake, I'll call it scummy.

Re 109: And town don't? You're suggesting that I'm scum because I know what scum would do? That is silly. And Mala seemed to be saying that we shouldn't be voting for PMyst or pressuring him. That's trying to protect him from some scumhunting from the entire town, not just me.

No. That's not what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting that scum tend to be more self-conscious about what is seen as scummy and what isn't. In that post you were explaining away Mala's argument by saying that it would be a scummy thing to do, so why would you do that? It shows you have a distinct awareness of what would be portrayed as scummy, and how you would go about avoiding such a thing. I'm not saying this is exclusively a scum thing to do - no tells are exclusive. What I

am

saying, is it goes along nicely with the other things you're doing.

No? She was saying we shouldn't do that

before

Klick's request was revealed. By the time you made post #109, the request had been revealed. It ended with Mala implying you and Myst being possible partners (based on associative tells from you, at least). From my understanding she wasn't trying to prevent Myst votes at all.

So does town, noone is going to state they are scum during the first day (and also practically never during other days)

You misunderstand me. I'm not saying that town don't say they're town so they say they're scum. I'm saying town don't say they're town. There's no point in assuring everyone of your townliness - they can see it in your actions. If they can't, then you can go down knowing you helped provide the town with more information. Scum are going to want to make sure everyone knows they're town. They'll probably say it a few times as a use of defense. Town can do this as well. It's just that it doesn't make entirely logical sense to do so as town - so it leads me to believe scum would likely do that. Do you know what I'm saying? It's like, if you're a little kid and your mom accuses you of lying. If you lied you're going to repeatedly say you didn't lie, and that'll likely become your biggest defense because you can't rely on evidence. If you didn't lie, you're probably going to try to convince her with evidence that you didn't, or just resign and complain about the situation. Continuously saying you didn't lie won't further the situation and make her suddenly believe you.

@Mit: As a side note, you say you're voting Myst for his lurking. He's been inactive across all of his games, not just this one. He had made only two other posts (in other threads) between his first and second in here. They were made at the times he posted in here. I don't think he's lurking - he's likely just inactive for other reasons.

[TraceyLyn11]

Shoot, forgot to add onto the @Mit part at the end. Also, why are you so bothered by Mit's absence, but not Riggs'?

[TraceyLyn11]

VOTE: Myst Now what?

[TraceyLyn11]

Well, now he'll see there's two votes on him. Maybe he'll actually respond.

We can only hope.

UNVOTE

Tracey makes a good rebuttal to my argument on Cheery Dog

My rebuttal consisted of an obvious statement and "no". Explain, please.

[TraceyLyn11]

I can see how CD could construe people as a bit more scummy simply because they have said more stuff to be misconstrued that way

Cool beans.

Now who do you think's scummy?

[TraceyLyn11]

Basically, gut

You just said PM/Riggs were your other guesses. Why Mit?

>meant to quote your vote, but it's difficult to change that on my phone<

[TraceyLyn11]

If you say gut again, I'm going to assume you're sheeping me. Jus' sayin'.

[TraceyLyn11]

Wait wat. I'm on Myst now. Never mind.

I don't know why you're on Mit. Now I'm confused. What sort of reaction test are you going for?

[TraceyLyn11]

I'm confused.

[TraceyLyn11]

And unvoting will make that happen?

[TraceyLyn11]

@Anyone and everyone: What do you think of Klick's insistence on not mentioning PMyst's meta, his vote on Mala and his subsequent unvote?

What do you think of Mala's claim about PMyst's meta being too easy for scum to attack?

Is either of those scummy? Both? Neither? I'd ask for thoughts on Riggs' lack of content too, but he said he won't be back until today, so that's another stalled place.

I don't think his insistence on not mentioning Myst's meta was significant under any light. It was a reaction test. Reactions were had. His vote for Mala seemed like Klick, but his unvote was a bit odd. I don't think that that was really what Mala was saying. Could you elaborate (I bolded it)? Klick seemed townish until his recent lurking. I know he can be an incredibly active player. His lurking seems out of place. Though, if I remember correctly, he told me he's more active as scum (and he was scum in the game I modded), so it could be pointing to him being town. I am totally unsure of Mala at the moment.

No, those two would be the most scummy BY DEFAULT, by my asssessment, in the event that no other vote were decided upon.

In other words, not scummy; deadline/policy lynches. Yes?

In fact,

by virtue of the reaction

, Mitillos is not a terribly good one to decide upon, so

UNVOTE

PMysterious

What reaction are you referring to?

No. Unvoting BEFORE that happens because it will be more informative WHEN that happens

How will it be more informative? Please explain.

I have not been trying to keep pressure off PM, but I was simply reaction testing the waters of players whom I have never played with before.

Weak as it was lead me to believe Mit can be possible scum.

Why is the last sentence in past tense? Do you still think Mit is scum? Why/why not?

Is this a perfect game in which to talk about a policy lynch?

Absolutely not. Please don't.

Would PMysterious be consider-able, in the light of common knowledge, as a policy lynch?

No. That won't happen. I won't allow it. Policy lynches are bad in general, bad for the town, and just take the fun out of the game. I especially don't want to use one on Myst who I know has the potential to

BE ACTIVE

.

Eh. I really dislike policy lynches. There's only two players who I will attempt to PL and they are not in this game. Honestly, I rather go for information as a scummy player than risk killing a town just because of the way they play.

Not trying to stop your discussion and I'm totally open to talking about it, but I'm not willing to help PL.

Why are you so... Wishy-washy with this? If you disagree with policy lynches and won't help move them along, then why would you be okay with someone continuing a discussion about them and whether they're a good option or not?

To answer. pretty much. PLing me is the same thing as saying, "Hey! This guy's an idiot for lurking. Let's lynch him." So, yeah, I am a policy lynch whether I'm a PR or not. It hurts to say something like that.

I feel like you just soft claimed... Are you scum again, PM?

Also, I know you can be more active. Participate or replace out. Same with any other lurkers. Scum, town, PR, whatever. Lurking isn't fun for anyone, and it usually only makes you a deadline lynch.

[TraceyLyn11]

*Prod dodge*

Sorry for the random absence. This weekend's been fairly busy, and I just spent all day recovering and setting up my computer. Tomorrow or Monday I should have a catch up post up.

[TraceyLyn11]

Oh dear. It's going to be another bloody endless wall, isn't it?

Probably.

[TraceyLyn11]

I'm caught up in my other game. I'm running kind of on schedule tonight. I may actually end up having time to respond!

[TraceyLyn11]

You guys don't have to wait for me. You can still talk...

[TraceyLyn11]

VOTE: Tracey. Will explain at my earliest convenience. This was the scumread I was hiding, but what reminded me of it is her "Is that a soft claim?" shit.

What's wrong with that?

My personal take on policy lynches is that they can be discouraging, but also they might be in the benefit of scum. Scum can use it to their advantage and try to direct that in their favor.

And this is why I didn't like your wishy-washiness towards the policy lynch. You knew scum could take advantage of a policy lynch... And yet you didn't try to crush Taz's discussion about policy lynches? What bothers me even more is:

Taz has moved to a low scum read because of attempting to want to PL PM. I think it's anti town, but also scummy. My main answer if you don't like someone's play style either you don't join or you find a way to play nice without wanting to PL.

Why did you not think this was scummy when he first asked about it?

Just thought of something, but Klick's "hidden" scum read on Tracey reminds me of his play during Fire and Ice.

His play is different.

- hidden scum read on Tracey, which feels to me as a gambit which scum Klick likes to do.

I know he already said this, but I'm going to add emphasis. Klick does gambits as either alignment. Gambits are not alignment indicative in his case. However, I will say that his "gambits" feel distinctively different this game than they did in Fire and Ice.

Seriously. We were getting somewhere with RVS, but then the RQS ruined it. The pro-town use of waiting for someone to call it out is good in theory, but it stalled the game.

I do RQS in all of my games. It actually wasn't even meant to be used in order to see if someone would call it out. I just find that I get better results with discussion from RQS than RVS. Not to mention the answers to the RQS I actually do use and keep track of.

The first thing that really tipped me off by Tracey is that her #36 paragraph on PM makes no sense. Her conclusion that PM was reaction fishing seems far-fetched and unreasonable, given her past experience with PM. At first, I speculated on a Tracey-PM team, and that's why I wanted to hear from PM before revealing my read on Tracey; I kinda wanted to get PM onto the subject of Tracey's post and see if he went along with Tracey's idea that he was reaction testing. However, PM's post was a town tell. There must have been some other reason for her to think that.

A) What do you mean about Myst reaction fishing seeming far-fetched? I'll go onto discuss this in a little bit, but I don't think it's out of his ability to do so. B) What was a town tell from Myst?

Tracey's reasoning in #42 is terrible when she had so much else to go on earlier. By this time I was tipped off by Tracey, and #44 shows it, as well as my team speculation.

You seriously think that that was my reasoning for thinking Cheery was scum? That that was the only thing propelling me onward to vote for him? It was on the second page. Notice I had already had two votes before that. I was reaction fishing, doing something to get the game moving.

Another thing that I forgot to mention: Tracey buddies me. A lot. She disagrees with my reads and tries to convince me otherwise, but she never misses the chance to call me town after the arguing.

Is it weird to buddy people you think are town?

However, it looks really bad if Tracey is town.

Why?

However, the fact that he revealed himself is a slight towntell.

How?

Mala, I can see Klick being scum

Explain.

But Tracey knew PM's meta, and therefore had no good reason to think that he would reaction fish.

Why not? I certainly don't think Myst to be incapable of it, and I know he's trying to improve his play. One way to do so would be to start the game moving early in the game. I'm really confused as to why you think Myst couldn't (or wouldn't) reaction fish.

Yo guys this is the robo rappin time'
yeah

word

imma beatbox and

prod PMysterious

a ratatat tat and flippin my flap jacks
im throwin these raps straight back
to 1492 where columbus sailed the ocean blue
yeah, you know that its true
im a hundred times better at rappin than you

my rhymes and records they dont get played
cuz my records and rhymes they dont get made
and if you rap like me you dont get paid
and if you roll like me you dont get laid

aint no party like my nanna's tea party!

Thank you. Carry on.

I laughed too hard at that..

Okay, I'm SO sorry for not being too active. I forgot about this a LOT. Its not like me to forget about MS. Really, it isn't.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME. I was all excited to actually get to play with you. And you lurk. A lot. And do stuff like this. Replace the hell out or actually start posting substance. Seriously.

Klick, Riggs, and Cheery are town, methinks. Commie and Myst are null-town. Taz is null. I'm very confused about him. Mit and Mala are null-scum. I have no strong scum reads.

My vote on Myst was sort of a reaction test. Both for everyone else as well as Mit. I didn't expect Myst to come back and begin posting.

That being said, my vote is better off on Mala.

VOTE: Mala

Also, sorry PM. It feels too weird calling you "Myst". I'm going to revert back to "PM".

Taz, you never answered my questions:

No, those two would be the most scummy BY DEFAULT, by my asssessment, in the event that no other vote were decided upon.

In other words, not scummy; deadline/policy lynches. Yes?

In fact,

by virtue of the reaction

, Mitillos is not a terribly good one to decide upon, so

UNVOTE

PMysterious

What reaction are you referring to?

No. Unvoting BEFORE that happens because it will be more informative WHEN that happens

How will it be more informative? Please explain.

[TraceyLyn11]

@Tracey: What sort of reaction were you expecting? That I'd unvote him and vote you instead, or something? I'd like him to answer questions and start posting, before I consider moving off, as I said several times, so that's not happening, at the moment. Also, why is PMyst null-town? If anything, he should be null, from all the lack of posting, or null-scum from ignoring the questions directed at him. Unless you have reason to believe that his lurking and ignoring questions is a clear sign of townishness.

No, that's not the reaction I was expecting. Why did that spring to mind for you? When I reaction fish, I don't [generally] know what I'm looking for. I just do something that I'm sure will make people's heads spin. I might expect some sort of general consensus toward a reaction fish of mine (i.e. it's scummy, it's townish), but I don't [generally] know what it is I'm looking for.

What good is your vote doing on someone who doesn't even care? In fact, I'd be a little surprised if PM even knew you were voting him, let alone the reasoning behind your vote. Your vote is as good as not voting. I suggest you vote someone else or actually try and convince people to lynch PM. Right now, this is you: "Guise. PM's not doing anything. So I'm going to pressure him. You should to." "No? Okay. Well, I'm still going to." "Woohoo, you voted with me. Now let's see if he responds." "Nooooope... But I'm still going to keep my vote here." "You unvoted.. Well my vote is still worth something even though if what I'm saying is right, and he's lurking, then he knows we were both voting him and still didn't participate."

PM is null-town because of his voting "undecided". I just don't understand why scumPM would do that. I haven't seen his town meta, though, so I can't say if his other posts are from town or scum. I know as scum he got three prods within two [game] days. I don't know if he's that lurky as town, too, or not. He's not null-scum because I don't think he's ignoring the questions. I think he's literally not reading anything in this game.

[TraceyLyn11]

@Mit: Uh, no. First, I also said that I have not seen his town play. I have heard of it, though (specifically from Mala in this game - who

has

experienced his town play), and his play this game seems to not be very alignment indicative. Second, why will I be leading the lynch? You seem to have ignored the other part of my request. Switch votes

or

convince us to vote with you. You had done very little to get others on the wagon with you. If you really want the lynch, then actually try to get it.

Now you're going for the other person who is contributing little. I can tell from your play that you disagree with lurkers, but this looks way too much like one scum partner going for a lynch, and you (the other partner) going for staying off the wagon and setting up a mislynch for the next day. I say this because it's exactly what my partner and I did in my first scum game. Have you been scum before? How many games have you completed?

As for your reasoning, Riggs offered up an example of him and PM being partners together. Unless you're referring to another time where they were partners, I don't understand how he would be trying to control how we percieve his metagame. In fact, I saw his posting that as townish rather than scummy.

[TraceyLyn11]

Hi Violet! This will certainly be interesting.

>more soon<

[TraceyLyn11]

@Tracey: If you've seen a specific type of play by a player as being scummy, I'd expect you to take it as scummy when it's being used again. saying that "it could be town because you don't know what PMyst is like as town" seems somehow strange, to me.

No, you misunderstood. I saw him do it as scum. That doesn't mean he doesn't do it as town. Not to mention PM's play doesn't fall under traditional play. Meaning what could be considered scummy for many players, might be a town tell from him. Which is why I'm only judging one thing of his - one thing I don't think he'd do as scum.

Additionally, PMyst as town seems to be bigger on things like RVS, from what I've read in his meta.

What

have

you read? Specifics would be nice.

I don't want to lynch him yet, because he's lurking and I think it is a terrible idea to lynch someone without giving them a chance to participate. I don't like lurkers, not because they are scum, but because if they are scum, the town can't catch them easily, due to lack of content. I want people talking first, not being lynched; that can come later. So no, I won't push for PM's lynch, yet. But if he continues to not participate, whilst not being replaced, I will certainly do so.

How do you feel about no lynches?

As for Riggs, it is not about his lurkiness. As I said, it's mainly post 183. He is trying to guide us to a specific example of his meta. Lurker or not, this is scummy. Particularly with that addendum about "using that how we wish". The thing about this is that what it seems like he wants is for us to deduce that he's not scum with PMyst. If a number of people believe that PMyst is scum, this will imply that he's not PMyst's scumbuddy and therefore is not scum himself. There seems to be no reason for town to give us a specific game where he had been scum with PMyst, except as an attempt to colour our perceptions.

And? My point was, unless you are implying that they have been scum buddies together before, his posting that does no harm. I say this because the link would be valuable in deducing their play together even if it pointed strongly in one direction over the other. In other words, him posting the example would only help us rather than deter us; however, if he has another scum game with PM, then that could lead us to believe he was being selective about what he wanted us to see.

This is really a pointless argument, though. Either way, it's simple enough to look through his games to see how "selective" he was being.

Tracey, even considered the fact the reason why scum haven't taken advantage of it because PM might actually be scum, and the other person doesn't want to bus the buddy yet?

Way to totally dodge my question. Please go back and answer it.

No, I haven't considered that. For a few simple reasons. 1. Policy lynches are cheap, and are often perceived as scummy (though I've found asking for them often leans more to the townish side). 2. Several scum players wouldn't want to get a mislynch via policy. It's just not fun that way. And most important, 3. PM has hardly said anything, let alone anything scummy; therefore, going for a PM lynch would be difficult and would ultimately paint the scum in a bad light.

Also, Tracey's super obvscum, you all should have lynched her on page 1.

Shhhhh, they might actually believe you! For cereals, though, are you scum? Your predecessor was kinda scummy. I promise I won't hold your answer against you (well, I might, but technicalities).

ikr

Is that all?

[TraceyLyn11]

Correction. I have buddied Klick. He has not buddied me.

I am also disappointed that you would think I was that obvious in my scum play.

Stating pressure does not eliminate pressure. Just because I'm pressuring them doesn't mean I'm not willing to lynch them. As for vote hopping, yes I was. Is that scummy? I have clear reads. Read further, and you shall see them.

[TraceyLyn11]

Stating that you're adding pressure eliminates the pressure. You're also vote-hopping, and the only real read I can pick out that you've had is

She hasn't had a consistent read, I thought she had. My apologies.

I assume you're scratching out "real read" with "consistent read". In which case: does not being consistent in my reads up to page ten make me scummy?

[TraceyLyn11]

Welp. Mit cannot be scum with either Taz/Violet or Riggs. That helps.

Mit just gives me that feel of... Like, robotic speak. If you know what I mean. Everything he says sounds so structured and controlled. Or... No. Not that. It sounds thought out and... Repeated? I don't really know what I'm going for here. Basically, I don't like the voice in some of his posts, but it's beginning to look like a play style thing rather than a scummy thing.

And yes, Mit, Klick and I are scum partners. You caught us!

Klick, respond to things.

[TraceyLyn11]

Have you read his other games to establish that or just because it's continued here?

I have not read his other games. Not really the continuation so much as the... It seems to ridiculous to fake. Like... Gawd. I don't even know. I'll come back to this if I remember the wording...

Well, that's depressing.

What is?

Also, I meant to ask Violet what her thoughts were on Taz. And Riggs, obviously, but that's lesser, since he hasn't said much.

And yes. I'd like to hear her thoughts on them too... Heheheheehehhe..

[TraceyLyn11]

The robotic speak thing. And what's the laughter about?

Sorry.. I didn't mean it in an offensive way, but I couldn't find the wording to not make it sound offensive.

Violet knows...

She

's just so intuitive about this sort of stuff!

Mala:

She seems very "legit" in that she doesn't appear to be deceptive in her language, and seems to be writing straight from her head. She asks a lot of pressing questions and generally promotes the exchange of information on topics that matter: Policy lynching (which is a horrible idea), what scum might do in any given situation, and having people get their thoughts out so we know everyone's positions. With 0 being neutral and 10 being town, I'd say she's 2.5/10. So leaning town.

Okay, so why is she closer to null then? You're either leaving out commenting on the scummy things she's done, or it doesn't make sense for her to be that low on the null-town scale. I also notice that in all of your reads you throw out general comments such as, "His posting was good. He said a lot of townish things and asked a lot of townish questions." Show us what things were good (or bad). The general crap does nothing to help us see what you see.

Also, how do you feel about my objection against her reaction to the policy lynch?

Why would I want to wait?

Why ask such a silly question? It implies that you're fine posting it now, so why you wouldn't just post your thoughts on him instead, I don't know.

I plan to change that.

Did I actually luck out enough to get to play a game with you where you're scum? THIS IS SO EXCITING.

[TraceyLyn11]

Actually, yes. When you're town, you're never sure of the people around you, and there's always a hint of doubt. When you're scum, you know who's town and who's not, and so you feel safer and more willing to buddy people.

Okay, I'll give you that. But here's another question: who says there isn't any doubt? I may be saying Klick is my strongest town read, that there is no doubt, but do I actually believe that? All you have to do is look at my actions. I haven't not questioned Klick. I have. I haven't excused him from answering direct questions. I haven't let him off the hook. Not to say I don't have a strong read on him; I do. I really think he's town. But to assume my read is concrete is silly. Even the buddying can be seen as reaction fishing. I buddied Klick because I recognized him and enjoyed his play - that was my original reasoning. It soon evolved into because he was townish, but that's besides the point. He didn't like it from the beginning. I'm someone who no one had really questioned, someone who was getting things moving. ScumKlick could have taken advantage of that. If nothing else he could have just allowed the buddying to happen. Instead he's fighting against it and is even calling me scum for the buddying. I got my reactions, I am satisfied with the results.

Klick is fighting pretty hard against your buddying, which means he's very concerned about what people think of him, but especially with regards to you. Wonder why that is?

I don't even... How are you even seeing this as scummy? Would it be townish of him to just allow someone to straight up buddy him with seemingly no reasons? And are you really insinuating that either Klick or I would be that blatantly obvious in our scum play? I get the whole WIFOM aspect, but really.

It completely eliminates pressure. When you put pressure on someone, it's supposed to make them feel as if they need to be active.

Which is why I said I'd be willing to lynch them with that pressure. The pressure is not eliminated if I'm literally trying to get a wagon going on them, if I'm making cases against them, if I'm pushing for their lynch. It let's them know what I'm looking for so they can provide what I want in a timely manner. If not, I'm gonna be all over them for it.

Vote hopping is scummy in this case because it's without much substance to back it up - it looks like you're just accusing everyone of being scummy

to take pressure off you.

I still don't see your clear reads.

What pressure was there again? Let me know if you can find the answer to that one. Hint: there was none.

As for reads, I recently stated them very clearly:

"Klick, Riggs, and Cheery are town, methinks. Commie and Myst are null-town. Taz is null. I'm very confused about him. Mit and Mala are null-scum. I have no strong scum reads."

My stance on Tracey hasn't changed at all, and my scumread on Klick has redoubled.

Explain to me again why it makes sense to vote the person who your other strong scum read is voting rather than the person who has a vote from one of your null-town reads?

And @Violet: If you're a guy, sorry for the incorrect gender qualifiers. I took your name to be generically feminine; my apologies for this rather sexist lapse.

I enjoy you calling him a female, though!

Would you like to care where you know them from, or why

this

is so exciting?

I know him from real life. It's exciting because I want to see how successfully I'm able to read his scum play. I've done it before (in a game I was not in), but I'm curious to see how his play has changed and how accurate my reading of him still is.

[TraceyLyn11]

Violet, I'mma start calling you Vi. Just 'cause it's amusing to myself.

[TraceyLyn11]

The game's been going on a little over a week, and she hasn't pulled a Tracey and walled the crap out of the place.

Is walling scummy?

Mala's post #82 calls Mit out on potentially scummy behavior (waiting for wagons to vote) and then directs him to be more active. And actually, that's a great example of a pressure vote - because had he not responded, that would be a reason for Mala (or anyone, really) to be all up in his business. She then follows up in #174 with a hearty explanation as to her thoughts. But though she has her town points, she also doesn't have enough of those moments for me to think her solidly town, infact there are a lot of posts such as #51 and #108 and #169 which are all short and just kind of messing around, they don't do much, they're hardly worth mentioning. But the relatively significant amount of those leads me to perceive her less as town and more neutral - they don't do anything either way, but the amount of them dilutes her pro-town moments. It's hard to articulate and source that when I'm just giving my general thoughts about her.

This makes me feel better about you. Do this more often.

You're grasping at straws and distracting the town from real issues. Policy lynching is a meta thing, some people are more comfortable with it than others. You tried to turn her individual policy of being semi-ok with it into scumminess.

Wat. Semi-okay with it? You even linked this post in your post. She clearly stated that she "really dislike

policy lynches." She said she's "not willing to help PL." Don't tell me she said something, when she very clearly said the opposite. I took issue with her very clearly saying she did not like them, but still allowing a conversation to continue around whether it was a good idea or not. She even goes on to explain why policy lynches are bad in her post #174 (another one you linked). Which is why I addressed it in my post #222. Tell me how I grasped at straws.

Specific examples

. How have I distracted the town?

Specific examples

. How is what I am saying not a

real issue

?

PEDIT: I see your wall, Tracey. And I refuse to read it and then modify my post. I spent a good amount of time on this.

You don't have to modify. Just respond in another post.

@Klick: You're quite active elsewhere on site. I realize deadline is approaching in one of your games. But not in the other(s?). You say I'm scum, make a case, and leave. How will that convince people to join you? I'd like to see more participation from you.

@Riggs: I'd like to see a big information heap from you now that your V/LA is over.

@Violet: When you read through the game, did you quote stuff as you went, or did you come back to the quotes after you read?

[TraceyLyn11]

He said it in post #165, #167. I guess the reason why I never stated he moved to a low sum read is because I thought it was obvious with the "I dislike PL and rather go for information". Then I decided to state why exactly he moved because I saw scum motivation in asking it.

---

Klick, it's now Wednesday where is the Tracey case? Your VLA is over.

---

Tracey question in post #260 is a very valid one in regards to VI regarding Klick/Tracey.

---

Man, I wanna join this wall game, but players might shoot me if I did. I totally could when I have my computer back, but I won't.<3
I still don't have power yet.

1. That states an opinion on a theory aspect. Why would I assume that made him scummier in your eyes?

2. I believe he already made it.

3. Which one?

4. Feel free. I'd like to hear more from you.

What's your thoughts on Vi?

[TraceyLyn11]

"When Violet said my stance on..."

Honestly, I was leaning scum on Taz, but Violet's recent posts are giving me town vibes. 251, 254 and well I loved the most recent one.

Uh, guessed I missed the post with the case. Ill read back to that later as I got to drive to class.

Huh?

And I was hoping you'd buss him... The buddying is just too obvious!

Yeah, this was more or less his case against me, I believe.

Sooooo, I think Mala and Vi are both scummy. Vi bothers me even more than Mala. Plus there's revenge (i.e. OMGUS). But it's mostly that he's scummy.

VOTE: Vi

Anyone wanna sheep me? It'd be much appreciated!

[TraceyLyn11]

C'mon Robo, you're slacking on the vote counts! I had to go a whole

two pages

back. Do you know how sore my fingers are from the extra effort? Super sore.

[TraceyLyn11]

Just so you know, Vi is an entirely different person, and VI is something I most certainly am not. Also,

Violet's

most natural shortening is Vio, and there's absolutely no reason to truncate it further. I might as well call you Tr for all the sense it makes.

I know who Vi is, and I know what a VI is. When your username pops into my head, it automatically shortens to Vi. I figured it made sense to just call you that than to consciously have to stop myself from calling you that.

Also, this:

Violet, I'mma start calling you Vi. Just 'cause it's amusing to myself.

I asked you questions. Why have you not responded?

Sorry

First part of my last post was #3.

I know. I'm still confused. Could you elaborate?

I was at work!!

Excuses, excuses.

[TraceyLyn11]

The activity of this game it pitiful.

[TraceyLyn11]

Obviously we're a lazy old newbie game.

and I'm not going to actually help it with this post.
OI SCUM POST SOMETHING SCUMMIER SO I CAN ACTUALLY ATTACK AND OTHER STUFF WHICH MAKES ME FEEL USEFUL!

I don't even know what you said. >_>

IT'S NOT EVEN A NEWBIE GAME. I thought that automatically meant more active.. But noooooope.

Do stuff, Cheery!

[TraceyLyn11]

The activity of this game it pitiful.

Agreed. Even I haven't been posting that much. I think its because I forget about it too much. I'll try to keep in touch on this game.

You're just trying to annoy us. What the, I don't even..

[TraceyLyn11]

Then replace out. You've literally done nothing for this game. If you can't keep up, then leave the game.

[TraceyLyn11]

Would a force replace happen to be possible in this situation, Robo? >_> Unlikely, but worth asking..

[TraceyLyn11]

Honestly, I would love a more active game because it's much easier to find scum during an active game then a semi inactive game. Plus PM is null to me and him not really posting content is really giving me a hard time getting a correct read on him. :/

I feel like you're over explaining your thoughts on it.

However

, I must first take a short time to bring up the fact that nobody but Tracey has responded to my thoughts.

I find it very difficult to continue discussion and continue towards a potential lynch when I have a single person to respond to.

Start asking questions to others then? Otherwise, I agree.

I enjoy all of my players regardless of previous misgivings. If they make it through my signups, then they are part of my game, and I have no intention of casting out my players.

I don't have any issues with PM's previous play. I was actually kind of excited to play with him after modding the game he was in, but he hasn't posted a single game related post (unless you count RQS/RVS) and we're already twelve pages in; however, I didn't expect you to allow it. I was asking juuuuust in case.

Well, I can't force PMyst to respond to questions, or Riggs and Commie to start talking, so I can't really be part of the solution.

Yes you can. Vi, Mala, and I have been talking quite a bit. Cheery somewhat as well. Give thoughts on our different arguments and what-not. If something seems off,

ask questions

. Don't wait to be addressed.

As for your reads, I'm not sure I agree with Tracey/Klick team, but you are probably right on at least one of them. Not sure which one, yet.

Why do you think he's right on at least one of us?

I'm really tired of hearing that argument. First of all, it doesn't make me any more likely scum. Second, I have time to respond to small questions and stuff, not a big conversation.

I haven't really looked at Violets posts a lot.

I assume you can still keep up reading-wise though, yes? Then read and make small responses. You don't have to make walls. I don't understand why you're capable of making small posts in other games, but you can't even

read

this one, let alone make small responses to happenings. Your V/LA is over. Participate more, or if you can't keep up,

replace out

.

[TraceyLyn11]

I tend to always over explain. It's my actual nature. If you personally know me I over think the simplest shit, this includes MS games.

What about Vi's recent posts are giving you town vibes?

[TraceyLyn11]

Give me a bit. Half my street just got power. I might get it back in the next 30 mins or so then I can make a detailed post off my computer.

Sounds great. Feel free to make it a wall - gives me something to do.

[TraceyLyn11]

I didn't say she liked it. She said she wasn't willing to participate and dislikes them. That doesn't mean she's 100% against them, and the language suggested that she'd be somewhat ok with it if it were in the right situation and everyone else wanted it.

Twisting what I say to push your scum agenda just exposes you more.

Spoiler: No, just no.

Eh.

I

really dislike

policy lynches. There's

only

two players who I will

attempt

to PL and they are

not in this game

.

Honestly, I rather go for information as a scummy player than risk killing a town just because of the way they play.

Not trying to stop your discussion

and I'm

totally

open to talking about it, but I'm

not willing

to help PL.

My personal take on policy lynches is that they can be

discouraging

, but also they

might

be

in the benefit of scum

.

Scum can use it to their advantage and try to direct that in their favor.

If a large palayerbase wants to policy lynch a player who is actually scum.
A scum can take the charge lead on that lynch which to me is a mini form of bussing. If it goes into their favor they can potentially be able to have themselves cleared. Meaning the partner can lead a lynch on the teammate.

If a larger player base wants to policy lynch a player who is town.
The scum can do a few things. They can avoid that wagon as a whole and divide on singleton votes or attempt to gain town cred by trying to stop the PL and change the direction to another town player.
They also can use this policy lynch as a reason to find someone scummy and get them lynched in the future.
They also have elimated a town or they gradually forced someone to claim if that people has a PR.

The bolded parts show key words or discussions that imply she was very much not okay with policy lynches. I agree that the tone of her posts imply that she wasn't 100% against them, but her words certainly did. This sort of contradiction seems scummy. Which is why I commented on the wishy-washyness of her seemingly disliking policy lynches at a large degree compared to her being okay allowing the discussion to continue on something she believed would be most beneficial to scum. The only point in either of her two posts where she actually says anything about being "semi-okay" with it is when she said she'd only be willing to policy lynch two people.

And they are not in this game.

As for her tone, I italicized the wishy-washy parts. None of it implies being "semi-okay" with a policy lynch. Her words very clearly state she dislikes policy lynches. What the italicized parts

do

represent, however, is a reluctance to be concrete. The only reason I can think of why that would be present in these particular posts is because she's scum who doesn't want to remove the opportunity of a possible mislynch, but also doesn't want to go against something that she's maybe been firm about in her past town games.

I have not twisted anything you have said. You know I very much dislike it when people misrepresent me; that is what you are doing. I get the feeling you're trying to provoke me given the tone and words you've been using in your posts. This is one of the factors aiding in me thinking you are scum.

You took Mala's general policy on policy lynches and

flipped it around into something you implied was scummy.

Not only did you misrepresent what happened

, but you also

completely ignored her argument

and

squashed the discussion into oblivion.

Here's the kicker:

Her point was against

me

. You attacked her for addressing issues she had with what

my slot

did.

I literally can't even fathom how... Wrong this post is.

Bold: I didn't flip it into anything, and you have yet to explain how I have misrepresented her original statement aside from saying she was "semi-okay with it" and "the language suggested that she'd be somewhat ok with it if it were in the right situation and everyone else wanted it." Now that I have showed you in a very clear way (bolding and italicizing specific words), explain to me how the hell I have misrepresented her posts.

Italic: ^Above^

Underline:

Where

did I ignore her argument? And what exactly was that argument? That she doesn't like policy lynches?

Bold/italic: Damn skippy I did. I don't agree with policy lynches. I see zero benefits in them, especially in a game as small as newbies. With that being said, why would I allow the discussion to continue? Explain to me how it's scummy.

Bold/underline: ... And? I call things out as I see them regardless of whether or not I find the person in question scummy. If Klick does something I deem scummy, I'm going to question him hardcore about it regardless of my town read on him. If Mala or you do something townish, I'm going to call it out. I don't look for associative tells on

day one

. I might point them out if they're ridiculously obvious, but I am not hunting for both of the scum. I'm only hunting for one. I have two scum reads right now. I have no idea whether you are partners or not, so I am attacking my strongest read (i.e. you). I'd also like to point out that when I attacked Mala for the policy lynch stuff, you were not in this game. I didn't have a strong scum read on your slot until you replaced in. I had a null read on Taz. Why does it matter that I was attacking issues she had with your slot? And as ANOTHER side note, she was

not

attacking Taz in that particular post. Not to mention even if she was, that's not the part I had an issue with. The issue I had in her original post basically centers around: "Not trying to stop your discussion and I'm totally open to talking about it [...]"

I don't really know what you're asking. I read through the game taking mental notes (I don't write them down, but I generally have a good memory) and then if I need to bring it up I'll come back to it. 95% of the time, I'm right about what I remember and can just go back and quote it.

I'm not asking you what you usually do. I'm asking you what you did in this game. Did you read through and

then

quote the information you were going to use in your initial catch-up post, or did you come back to it after you had completed reading over the game?

l feel like it would be worthwhile to mention that you haven't pointed out a

single thing

I've done that is scummy, and are just voting me because I called you scum. Town would be clear-headed enough to realize that just because someone is against you does not mean they differ in alignment. Why you believe Mala is scum is also unclear, but to somewhat of a lesser extent. I have not seen your case against her. Infact, you have not made cases - you have pointed fingers and repeatedly asked people to sheep you.

I don't need the person I think is scum to tell me that what they're doing is not scummy. I obviously don't trust your thoughts on the matter. That aside, you are right. I have not made cases. I have pointed fingers and repeatedly asked people to sheep me. I don't make cases anytime I think someone's scum. That would be ridiculous. I make cases when it's getting near deadline and a lynch is likely, I make cases to derail wagons I disagree with, and I make cases when they are asked for. I am not, however, only voting you because OMGUS. You can tell in my post where I said that that I was joking. You sure did opportunistically latch onto that, though, didn't you? I hear discrediting an opponent can be a good strategy as scum. I think you still need to work on it a bit, though.

More later (probably tomorrow). I still need to respond to Mala and Mit, as well as say some more to Vi, but I have a lot of studying to do tonight (THREE TESTS TOMORROW. Gah) so this is all I could get done.

[TraceyLyn11]

Yes, but so is PMyst who continues to dodge prods and questions.

Questions? What questions? I didn't see any anywhere. "zzz" I'm so sorry, but this post is half invalid. Try again.

READ THE DAMN THREAD

[TraceyLyn11]

In post #239:

I have never really seen a player who's replaced in as scum look for direct connections.
Clearly shows a sign of scumhunting, wants to see more posts out of other players to get accurate reads. Only town benefit from wanting more posts because more posts it's easier to see possible connections which can help find scum.
Violet touched on why there's a possible Tracey/Klick team earlier in the post.

You not seeing it =/= it not being possible. Not to mention, associative tells are not helpful to the town - especially day one, especially in newbie-type games. I don't understand why Vio (gah, feels weird) connecting two players this early looks like a town-tell to you.

Vio is going to be active - you could tell that from the beginning. Why would an active scum consider it a smart idea to attack one person and ignore everyone who is lurking? It might

benefit

them alignment-wise, but I'd be very suspicious of an active player not caring about the inactivity of the rest of the game. This might be a more notable, townish thing in a more active game, but it's not an active game. Not to mention this is the quote I assume you're referring to:

I have a neutral read on everyone else. I'd love to see more discussion, but until that happens, my reads are going to be incomplete.

He did nothing in his post to start discussion other than attacking the most active player in the game. I'm not saying that he's scum for not asking everyone several questions - it

was

his first content post. What I am saying is he had a null read on several people, said he'd "love to see more discussion", and then said his reads would remain incomplete otherwise. While not a particularly bad quote in and of itself, you saying it was good was a bit off the margin as well. He did nothing to start a discussion. He basically said he had null reads and left it open to keep the null reads. I don't know if I'm explaining my thoughts on this effectively, but meh. It's one of my more insignificant points, anyways.

Post 251:

Later responds to why he didn't like his slot's prior posts.

I really didn't much care for his play, especially when he semi-advocated a policy lynch. He appeared to be disinterested in the game and didn't put much effort in. I plan to change that.

Reads to me as an honest answer and it explained why exactly he didn't like the feel of the prior posts and explains that it will be changing.
I don't really see scum honestly saying, "Oh I feel my slot was scummy, this is why"
I actually see scum trying to discredit a case with a few different arguments. One that he couldn't be held responsible for Taz's actions, but another by asking why the posts in question were never originally challenged to the previous slot owner.

What does a scum have to lose from saying their slot was scummy?

Post 254:

Buddying to me is anti-town. There's a few exceptions to using buddying as town strategy, but it involves having a cop read or a really accurate gut read on the player, but another would be if you played with that person for games in a row you can get a sense of an direct feel.
Scum benefit more from buddying because they can direct it to their advantage.

Not sure if you're saying this as a point against me or to just get your view out there, so I'll just respond as if it's the former. I buddy as both alignments. I have a wide range of reasons why I do. It's not an alignment tell for me.

I just don't see scum calling out a case like that unless they are actively trying to distance themselves from each other. I just don't see Violet as scum, but I do see Klick as scum.

Well here's your biggest problem. This is one of the many faults of looking for scum partners. You rule people out as being possible scum because they don't look like they're partners. You have a town read on Vio to begin with, so what I'm saying doesn't really apply to this, but still.

Post 262:

Honest answer and

doesn't really contradict

the point Violet made in post #251. Reads town.

The bolded is silly. It's really easy not to contradict yourself as scum.

Thank god you're not starting a trend. Stop it.

I don't understand why, but whatever.

How could you possibly think she was leaving herself open to go ahead with a policy lynch? I will admit, I was wrong that she was semi-ok with it - she's dead-set against it. But that's even scummier because

you knew

she wouldn't dare push a policy lynch this game and

still

used it against her.

I didn't say she was leaving herself open to do so. I said it looked as though she was reluctant not to leave an opening. Nice try, though.

Provoking people is generally pro-town. We get to see more of your unadulterated emotion and can evaluate how you cracked under pressure. For instance, instead of denying everything, you're turning the tables. Which is scummy. But I do know you in real life, and

you tend to think anyone that doesn't think your way is trying to provoke you.

Which makes it less scummy, and more just your meta.

I've told you in the past that I have gotten a temper when people misrepresent me. I have also told you of a game where a scum literally tried to provoke me because he knew I had a temper about such things. You know from real life that

you

are rather capable of upsetting me. I wouldn't put it down as something you'd be unlikely to try. Also,

provoking

is not pro-town. It just makes people angry, giving scum a clear shot to twist what they're saying. I've had it happen to me, I've seen it happen to others, I've used it on others.

The bolded is incorrect. I only think that about you because half the time you

are

trying to provoke me. /insignificant to the game

Did you seriously forget the post we're talking about? It's the only argument we could have been discussing. Her argument for Taz as scum for wanting a policy lynch. I can't show you where you ignored it any more than I can show you where uranium

isn't

. If you didn't ignore it, the burden of proof is on you to show us where you addressed it. But I remember where the conversation happened, and I know you didn't address it, because your response was "Why did you not think this was scummy when he first asked about it?" Which brings us full circle. You attacked her for scumhunting, and that's

scummy

.

I... What? Was the post from Mala this?:

Taz has moved to a low scum read because of attempting to want to PL PM. I think it's anti town, but also scummy. My main answer if you don't like someone's play style either you don't join or you find a way to play nice without wanting to PL.

I don't know how you wanted me to respond to that nor how I ignored it. I agree with policy lynches being wrong, so?

Associative tells are always helpful, in my opinion. Even on day one, you naturally act different around someone if you're partnered with them. That is an extremely significant part of the game that you can't just ignore.

Agreed. You can't ignore the associative tells of day one

after one of the scum have flipped

. Before then is total WIFOM. I understand that the theory surrounding this particular subject tends to be much more lenient in larger non-newbie games, but because this is still a newbie setup, I'm going to treat it the same as any other newbie game. In which case, associative tells = bad.

Honestly I'm not sure why it matters so much to you, but I quoted things of particular interest while I was reading, and then commented on them accordingly after I had read to near-completion.

This is rather interesting. Will return to this at a later time.

That's a cancerous attitude to have. I'm not scum, and I can advocate against my own lynch if I damn well please. You're also doing a terrible job of actually convincing anyone to think the same way, which is what I meant by it in the first place, along with the fact that you don't seem to be making cases or scumhunting as much as pointing fingers. Infact,

that's one of the more prevalent issues I have with seeing you as town

.

Well of course you can advocate against your own lynch. But can you not see the reasoning behind my not believing you? If I think you're scum, I'm going to obviously believe you are lying. You said I haven't pointed out a single scummy thing you have done... I obviously disagree. I have no reason to believe what you are saying to be fact because I do not know your role, and I am forced to trust the information in this game and my own intuition to tell me what your role is. You telling me I'm wrong is like a criminal saying they're innocent. They might be telling the truth.. But that's for the law to decide.

I already explained why I have not made cases. They take a lot of time, and I'm not going to make one every time I find someone scummy. That'd be a waste of time and effort. I instead make cases when the town looks ready to lynch someone or when I am asked for one.

If you plan on convincing anyone to agree with your opinion, I suggest you start making cases. Derailing cases doesn't make any sense - you're just shutting down the flow of information to be controlling and self-righteous. Town leading town is blind leading blind, only scum serve to gain from control.

I laughed. So what... I'm supposed to allow a lynch to go through on someone I think is town and allow my scum read to go unnoticed? No. I will attempt to derail the town wagon in order to gain more support on the scum wagon. That's not an attempt to be controlling and self-righteous. That's how you play the game.

You discredit yourself with your "logic". You don't need any of my help.

This is exactly what I meant by trying to provoke me.

GNR: I don't know what he was trying to accomplish with his first post, but I don't really trust it. There is a possibility he could be trying to earn early town points by feigning PR-protection while simultaneously limiting town information by keeping the Jailkeeper from us. Even stranger is the fact that Jailkeepers are usually on the scum side, and there is none in this game.

Could you explain this? I don't follow.

@Violet: The thing is, I don't have much to say about you and Tracey. You guys are taking care of all that, yourselves.

And I would like more people to participate, so I can have a more complete picture of everyone, before making up my mind.

This goes back to my roboticness. Also, I really don't trust lurkers.

That could quite possibly be the scummiest thing you've said this entire game.

@Tracey: I don't have something significant to add, usually because in the time between me being here there's a new couple of walls, 4 responses, 9 counter-responses and so on. There's very little for me to add, without just sounding like I'm repeating what other people have already said. As for Violet being right about one of you, I think that one of you and Klick is scum. I'm not sure which, yet. I might be wrong and

I'm prepared to re-evaluate at any moment

, but right now, I think that one of you two is mafia. If I had to guess, it'd probably be Klick, but I don't think it's both of you. And I'd like to hear more from the less active people; I don't trust lurkers, they must have something to hide.

You have plenty to respond to. Ask questions if you must. You're complaining about lurkers? How about you actually question them and try to get them involved instead of leaving a dead vote on them?

Why do you think one of us is scum? Why can't it be both of us? Why Klick over me? What do you think the lurkers are hiding?

The bolded makes my skin crawl.

Unvote

I forget why I voted Taz in the first place at the moment.

Going over pages to find some info

Well?

[TraceyLyn11]

Yes, but so is PMyst who continues to dodge prods and questions.

Questions? What questions? I didn't see any anywhere. "zzz" I'm so sorry, but this post is half invalid. Try again.

READ THE DAMN THREAD

[TraceyLyn11]

That bolded question, doesn't that mean Violet would be town? Because if Violet is scum, then you're calling him not smart for doing what he has done. Are you saying he is a dumb scum?
If so, what makes it a "dumb" scum move to be just attacking the most active person?

No because he hasn't ignored the other players. He's focused mostly on me, but he has commented on the inactivity of the game as well as his thoughts on players. Mala was saying that him wanting reads and more activity was an indication of him being town. I disagreed saying that any scum that was going to choose to be active would be smart enough to not ignore the inactivity of the rest of the game. While tunneling isn't necessarily scummy, there's certain ways it can be done. The way Mala was implying Vio was

not

doing (i.e. replacing in, tunneling immediately and on the most active player, being very active, ignoring inactives) is definitely very scummy. Which is my point - scum are likely to have enough forethought to realize doing such a thing would be perceived as scummy. Which leads back to my question: Why would scum do something that would be considered scummy (paraphrased)?

@PM: I don't care about you answering questions (well, I do, but that's not my top priority). I want you to

participate

. If Mit's question was the only one you found, then you haven't READ THE DAMN THREAD.

[TraceyLyn11]

Yay, you both accepted! Hi. Sheep me. Vio's scum. Mala's scum, too.

[TraceyLyn11]

@Tracey - We are both easily gullible souls. Why are Vio and Mala scum?

To be concise, Vio's scum because he's trying way too hard to get me lynched. Not in the, "I really think she's scum, so I want her dead" sort of way, but more in the, "She's scummy for this. That's been disproved. Now she's scummy for this and this" sort of way. He also seems to be trying to provoke me - he knows from experience that he's capable of doing so. Not to mention meta reasons. I've seen him as scum before, and I know him in real life. His play is just not what I'd expect from townVio.

Mala's not quite as up there in scumminess. The biggest thing I have against her is her hesitance about policy lynching. Her words said she was extremely against policy lynching, but the tone said otherwise. As I've explained to Vio, I don't think she was trying to leave herself open to change her mind on a policy lynch, but rather she was upset (on a more subconscious level, probably) that she couldn't use the tactic to get such an easy mislynch. There's also her going so hardcore for Klick. It just feels... Off. Admittedly, that aspect is centered around gut, though.

Have you read the thread, Nacho? Why do you suspect one of you or Thor will die tonight?

Are you a Violet alt?

Also, what?

[TraceyLyn11]

don't you suspect one of Thor or I will die tonight?

I'm not sure of that yet. Why are you?

Also why did NONE of that include "oh, why do you find PM scum?"

Also if Vio is scum then why didn't he just buddy up to you today and kill you during the night?

Because I thought that that answer could depend on whether you've read the thread or not. I was going to ask that question if you

had

read it; although, it looks like Cheery's beaten me to that. I'll ask a similar, more specific question: do you think PM's lurking contributes to his scumminess, or is it something else that makes you think he is scum?

Why night kill someone you might be able to lynch?

[TraceyLyn11]

That said, we totally need to be a scumteam at some point, I don't think that's ever happened.

Why do you have to go and say something so scummy when I had considered your slot very townish? I'm disappointed.

PM lynch is bad. Stop it. He's a better deadline lynch if we need one.

[TraceyLyn11]

@Tracy with an 'e' - if you think that's 'so scummy' then just give me another few hours and I'll manage to go way scummier.

I don't even know what you mean by this.

I wanted to read this a few times to see if it made more sense to me.

I'll get back to you all...

He hasn't said anything (well, for the most part) scummy yet because he's had too few posts to be considered scummy. I think it'd be a waste of a lynch (even if he did flip scum, really) to lynch someone so inactive. He's said practically nothing game related, and he has not connected himself to anyone. That's exactly how his partner got so far in the game I modded; PM was lynched early, and his partner won in part due to lack of associative tells. That being said, if we must lynch him (I'm hoping he becomes active or gets replaced before that decision must be made), I'd prefer it be during a time when deadline is close, and we can't agree on any other lynch. Until then, I would prefer to actually lynch someone who's been posting information, someone who's actually had enough posts to be deemed scummy. I.e. Vio.

TL;DR: Lynching lurkers as a serious lynch is a waste of time unless they've said something condemning. PM has not.

@Cheery: Explain.

[TraceyLyn11]

@Tracy with an 'e' - So you're saying PM is playing like he does when scum in your experience, but you don't want to lynch him?

I believe someone else has already asked me that. I haven't seen his town play, and I know from other people that he plays a bit erratically as town, too. Therefore, I have no idea whether it's a play style thing or an alignment thing.

[TraceyLyn11]

So why bring it up?

It was kind of an elaboration on why it wouldn't matter much even if he flipped scum.

[TraceyLyn11]

Let's say we lynch Violet and they flip town - what do you learn from the 'connections' in thread?

Same question if the flower flips scum?

I want to see what a valuable info treasure trove this is.

The same as in any other game. We know his reads are genuine. Maybe not right, but genuine. We know that his connections with others are not a result of scum motivation. Therefore, if there was any mutual buddying done, the other buddier has more chance of being scum (kind of depends on the players, though). The same goes for bussing (or, not bussing, but you know what I mean). Whereas, if PM flips scum, he cannot be connected with anyone. He has not posted reads. He has posted almost nothing of game substance. If he flips town, it's the exact same scenario. It wouldn't make sense to make him a day one lynch if we could avoid it.

The flower?

My vote on you is because I can't understand why that sentence Thor (which I read as a offhand joke) is scummy in any way.
Vio was winning the wall war with you in my opinion, which meant if it continued I would be finding you more scummy than Vio. I know it has stopped for the moment since we've had Thor and Nacho come in, but when you go out and label something as crazy as a offhand joke as something scummy and practically label Thor scum because of it when you had town from his slot, it just doesn't sit right.

You should explain how Thor's post was scummy.

And you didn't bother asking me why I said that... Because?

I did not label Thor scum.

I've seen scum make similar posts. I'm sure I've seen town make them, too, and I just don't recall due to the scum posts being more noticeable, but it's a type of thing that bothers me, and I don't see the benefits of town saying something so blatantly WIFOMish. I find those types of posts scummy. That does not mean I think the person is scum.

[TraceyLyn11]

I thought by brackets saying I didn't explain it meant that I needed it explained to me, do I have to put everyone in way of a question to have people notice it?

I was asking why you didn't ask me before voting.

this is all useless
literally everything here

He asked me a question. I responded.

[TraceyLyn11]

Because you wanted the pm voting to stop, and I couldn't really do that by staying with a vote I had out since page 2.

... Fair enough.

How the hell did you get away with keeping your vote from page two? *face palm to me and rest of players*

[TraceyLyn11]

I find her logic for not wanting him lynched to be fairly suspect - and without looking at him would tend to favor lynching her first as reasonless defense of a useless slot is, in my opinion, scummier than being a useless slot.

What would we gain from the PM lynch on day one?

His point is that your answer went like this:

People who interact with the Violet slot will either be scum or town and we'll then know they're scum or town...

Which, though true, is hardly a beacon of brilliance shining down from the heavens.

I don't understand how that's useless. I never claimed that it was some magical realization. I just said lynching a scummy player who has game related content is better than lynching one without content.

Especially on day one

. I've heard you say this before (or, I think so, anyways. It was someone. Pretty sure it was you). That lynching a lurker on day one is the same as being on day one when we're at day two but with two less players (probably). I don't understand why this concept is hard for you all to grasp.

Also, I'm going to echo Cheery because you're being dodgy about this: Explain how my comment to Nacho about us needing to be scum together is scummy?

... I already answered that.

@Nacho - how awesome is this PMysterious wagon again?

@Nacho:

do you think PM's lurking contributes to his scumminess, or is it something else that makes you think he is scum?

I think the Tracey tell is objectively a clean scumtell though

Are you referring to where Klick said I should know PM wouldn't reaction fish? Or are you referring to something else?

[TraceyLyn11]

do you think PM's lurking contributes to his scumminess, or is it something else that makes you think he is scum?

I have never called someone scum for lurking.
Ever.

Then what makes him scummy?

[TraceyLyn11]

Also the point about mutual buddying and mutual suspicion is stupid. Town can buddy town, town can suspect town. Flipping one doesn't clear the other; it also doesn't confirm the other as scum, either.

I wasn't saying otherwise. Hence the "it depends on the players". Of course it doesn't clear or confirm. But it can give us a step in the right direction.

hi tracey i put tons of effort into this shit
respond and explain how i am wrong
ty <3

Only for you. <3

I don't disagree with anything you said. I agree with your ending statement:

"lynch people because they are scum not because they draw connections"

. I was just pointing out that, in my opinion, due to the sheer lack of

game related posts

, PM has not said anything scummy. All of his posts have been apologizing for his activity, promising to do better, or the RQS/RVS if you count that. Therefore, I was looking at it from a "what we would gain" perspective. And we wouldn't gain anything. If PM was town, we just lost two town players (assuming the night kill went through). If he was scum, yeah, awesome, we're closer to winning. But we still have nothing to go off of. We'd be starting back from scratch. Whereas, if we lynch someone who actually has

game related posts

and is scummy, we'd be much better off. I offered Vio because I obviously think he's scum. Though, looking from a purely informative standpoint, anyone would be a better lynch than PM. I'd rather do as I said earlier: wait for a replacement, wait for him to get his act together, or make him a deadline lynch if needed. If he keeps this up into day two, then yeah, I don't want him around for LyLo. But at least waiting one more day to lynch him would give us some information related to the person we flip and possibly the night kill.

Nacho quick test combined with

seeing who votes for the lynch.

Why is it I always have my derp moments when you're in the game?

He was discussing reaction fishing - so yes.

I explained that to him.

"Why not? I certainly don't think Myst to be incapable of it, and I know he's trying to improve his play. One way to do so would be to start the game moving early in the game. I'm really confused as to why you think Myst couldn't (or wouldn't) reaction fish."

you better prove you got something exciting from it or I will hate you (more than I already do).

You hate me? What did I do to you?

And yes, I did get something exciting from it, but it will have to wait, until Nacho answers the question to, or refuses to do so. And yeah, this should have happened long ago:

Unvote

Vote: Pmyst

Someone who's playing exactly like their scum meta and unlike their town meta, deserves rope. I don't even know how Tracey and Mala convinced me to change my mind.

What a scummy jump onto the wagon.

[TraceyLyn11]

@Thor: Oh, well as long as it's something that makes sense.

I'm not making a

presumption

. People have said he's trying to change, and he's said he's trying to change. Though that's not entirely significant. His trying to improve was only part of my reasoning. The other part was that I simply don't think he's incapable of reaction fishing. Anyone's capable of it - it's so easy. Now whether he would or wouldn't? I don't know. Which is why I brought up the aspect of him wanting to improve.

I'm not even going to read Mit's post right now. I've got so much to do before bed, and this game has consumed my attention for the last few hours. >_>

[TraceyLyn11]

He's not trying to change, he's getting worse every game I play with him. His scum meta is becoming his town meta and his town meta is becoming his scum meta.
The only thing I found with his last scum game was he tried to get me into "agressive/defense" mode and I'm not sure if he did that to get others to jump on me or what.

I'm just going off of what I was told. Either way, I still don't think it's impossible for him to be able to reaction fish. It really boils down to whether he would or not... And I've only seen one game of his. I don't think I'd be able to accurately answer that question.

@Mod: Thank you. Most gracious of you.

Darn straight

Damn skippy.

Fixed that for you.

[TraceyLyn11]

You wouldn't.
I have played quite a few games with him. I have played two games as town when he was scum.
I haven't really ever saw him reaction fish as town or scum for that matter.

Did you see him reaction fish during F&I?

I don't think so. But as seen by my end of game thoughts, my memory of early game is pretty fuzzy.

[TraceyLyn11]

Tracey why don't you see CD as scum?

He's been asking questions, and he's been fairly honest. Not things that scream town, but I think they're town enough that I don't support the lynch.

[TraceyLyn11]

Hi Thor. Talk to me. I'm bored. What are your thoughts on Vio and Mit?

[TraceyLyn11]

Hi Tracey explain to me why you didn't wall during Ladies Night, but are walling here? If you are indeed town in both games why is there such a difference of a game style change?

I'm quite bored also, I got class in 2 hours and have nothing to do until then.

Ladies Night is the odd one out in any of my games, regardless of alignment. I didn't wall because, as I said at the end of the game, I was getting fairly demotivated. It was a fun game, but the size of it and the remaining players made me "meh" about it. I was actually happy when you suggested vigging me if Spring didn't flip scum. >_> The biggest factor in my lack of walling was due to my not having a steady computer situation at the time, though. I now have my computer back and set up. Thus, walling is easy.

[TraceyLyn11]

Thor, what do you think of Nacho?

[TraceyLyn11]

Milquetoast.

First "Tracy", now "Milquetoast". You do realize the names are

right there

, right?

[TraceyLyn11]

Hi Mit! Join the party.

[TraceyLyn11]

@Thor: I knew you were going to ask that. No. Just them three, really. And have you? Care to summarize it into this post for me?

[TraceyLyn11]

@Mit: I have told you repeatedly that you could have asked questions, tried to get others active. And yet you continue to ignore this advice and claim you did nothing wrong.

Explain to me what PM has done that's scummy.

As for Ladies Night, I had one huge reads wall. I usually have one or two of those in each game. And then I may have made the occasional wall once my computer situation was looking better, but I made very few walls that game.

@Thor: If I say "pretty please with a cherry on top", will you summarize it for me?

What's

your

take on my counter meta?

@Mala: I have not tunneled you. I admit I have gotten a bit tunnely on Vio.

[TraceyLyn11]

Mala's scumminess had greatly diminished.

@Thor: Gaaah. I actually have to go through the work of finding it? That's no fun.

Is your reasoning for my being scum centered around me not wanting the PM lynch, or?

[TraceyLyn11]

@Thor: I have no idea how that post looks scummy unless you're saying it's because I was trying to look active. Is that what you were going for?

Also, have you not read my posts? PM has said little of game content, and he has only addressed one question.

@Mit: You asked questions to PM. Why not Riggs or Taz? But seriously, you could have gotten involved in the discussion between Vio, Mala, and I. That doesn't mean you'd get in a wall war. Just ask questions. Do something that's not sitting on the sidelines.

Because Vio isn't here, and Mit is making me increasingly uneasy:
VOTE: Mit

[TraceyLyn11]

There is no part of this game

ever

where you would be "butting in". You're part of this game, participate as if you are.

[TraceyLyn11]

Hi Mala.

[TraceyLyn11]

@Mit: guise he just tried to use the noob card. hes scum.

Looking for scum between two people walling? Well a) you're wrong. They're most definitely not always town v. town. I've had several games where scum have tried to get in wall wars with me. And b) you have no way of knowing yet what our alignments are. Saying "oh they're probtown, so I won't bother questioning them" is silly.

@Thor: I made that post literally for no other reason than to prevent myself from getting caught up in any additional responses. It was around ten o'clock, and I still had several things left to do (I estimated I'd be done by twelve or one). I wanted to go to bed by ten.

[TraceyLyn11]

No? I told myself I wouldn't respond to it because I had to stop responding at some point. I would have come back and responded to it later if I felt the need to.

[TraceyLyn11]

@Thor: I told myself feverishly that I wouldn't because I needed to get other things done. But my phone hesitates a few seconds when it's submittig a post, so I convinced myself to read it as it was sending. After reading it, I realized there was nothing to respond to.

Don't you dare say I lied. There would literally be no benefit for me to lie about that as scum in the first place. Not to mention I pride myself on the honesty I use as scum. Then there's the obvious lack of benefits for me to lie as town.

@Mit: As a lesson regardless of your alignment, don't fall prey to "they'll do it better then me, so why bother?" If you see something worthy of commenting on, worthy of questioning, do it.

I hate when people complain about walls. It's never made sense to me. It's really not much to read at all. And if it is so difficult, then either don't read them and do what Thor does: ask questions regardless of whether they were addressed, or skim them, or replace out. I'm going to wall this entire game, so it's not going to magically become more manageable.

I don't care about who you interact with. I just want you to interact with ~people~ since you were very clearly active during that time period.

You have not been playing the noob card. You stated

one

time that you didn't have a large amount of experience. And you just said you have three games under your belt. You should have enough knowledge to know how this game works and a basic knowledge of what is good scum/town play and what is bad. That being said, to use your being a noob as an excuse is ridiculous.

It has a baring on alignment because people tend to take pity on the newer players and give them more leeway - a fantastic benefit for newbscum. How do I know this? Because it's exactly what I did in my second game, my first scum game. And it worked flawlessly.

I find it amusing that you chose to use the same wording as Vio. To answer your question, no. I'm trying to get people off of PM and onto you. I thought that was pretty obvious.

[TraceyLyn11]

I didn't notice that Vio used that wording before, as I've been skimming the walls. Which goes back to my point that if I find something worth commenting on, someone's probably commented on it already. I'm not somehow magically more capable of spotting things that whoever you're wall-wrestling with.

Anyway, wanting people to get off PMyst is scummy in itself, when there are so many good reasons to believe he is scum and none to believe he is not, so I guess you're right, people in wall-arguments aren't necessarily always town. Well done for proving your point so flawlessly.

Unvote

Vote: Tracey

... You realize the point of the town is to get several different views on one thing, right? So we can all use our own methods of creativity and logic to catch a minority? You very well could be "magically more capable of spotting things than whoever [I'm] wall-wrestling with".

So I'm scum for not agreeing with you? Or am I scum for not seeing what you see?

Also, about the games "under my belt":
In the first I was killed N1. Didn't do much.
In the second I replaced in and spent pretty much the entire game fighting with Majiffy. Didn't do much.
In the third, I almost cost town a victory, by not thinking things through, carefully. Didn't do much good.

So, yeah, I think I still count as a newbie, for now.

It's this sort of stuff. You're purposely trying to discredit yourself.

So you didn't read the post when you made your comment.
Then, as your comment was being posted you did read it and realized there was nothing to reply to.
You explained this later when I asked about it (nothing to respond to) but though I called the comment fake sounding you didn't clarify that you had read it then and not later.

I feel like I'm watching a five year old lie and they keep adding to the explanation.
Scum advantage to it was that you managed to dismiss his commentary without actually having to dismiss it functionally - and were doing exactly that until I called you out on it again and you had to state you were dismissing it. ::shrug::

Do you have a link to somewhere with you discussing how you only lie about your alignment as scum and/or avoid most lies?

Let's look at the previous posts:

Short explanation is this - I don't think you didn't read his comment and *also* thought that you wouldn't have time to respond to it.
Ergo: you are lying at least once in that comment, and doing so in a way with no apparent town gain, but definite apparent scum gain.
Make sense?

@Thor: I made that post literally for no other reason than to prevent myself from getting caught up in any additional responses. It was around ten o'clock, and I still had several things left to do (I estimated I'd be done by twelve or one). I wanted to go to bed by ten.

You explain how a simple post was an elaborate scum ploy. Instead of explaining why each of your reasons were incorrect, I went for the more appropriate response: "Why the hell are you twisting something so simple into something scummy?" (paraphrased, of course) I saw no reason to shoot down each of your reasons as false because I was planning on shooting down the entire premise that the post was scummy in the first place as false.

I don't understand what you mean by the scum advantage. Please elaborate.

I thought I had one where I directly said it, but either I don't or it was lost to the crash. However, I did find this post (ironically from the game we were in together):

6. I am not fond of lurking, and it has irked me that the situation with my dad, and my computer have been issues which have made me lurk far more than I usually do in games. I prefer to post at least once or more a day in a game and push on lurkers. As for lying, I am not fond of that.

Even if you are scum, it is possible to mainly tell the truth or at least part of the truth.

For example I was scum in Open 397, and I specifically stated in game that I did not shoot Bork. After the game, I reiterated it and stated it was T and P, one of my scum buddies that shot Bork. (which was verfied by the mod when he released the night actions). I do not automatically push to lynch lurkers, but I will pressure vote and push on them to get into the game. As for lying, I am far more likely to assume they are scum and push for their lynch.

8. No (and if you ever find anyone who DOES answer yes to this I would love to see that )

Pedit WAIT Robo did you actually answer YES??

THANK YOU. On number six, we are basically in agreement. On number eight, Thor also said yes, and I was planning on saying yes. Seems we have a three person scum team, eh?

I don't actually say that I am in agreement with the bolded specifically, but meh.

I'm at L-1, guys. No hammering, please.

Why did you not announce it, Mit?

[TraceyLyn11]

Yaaaaay!

@Robo: Riggs is now [finally] eligible for a replacement!

@Mit: I can't say that I disagree with what you're saying about his meta anymore. To be honest, it's withered down into a gut read. There's always that one player that my gut screams is a mislynch (I believe I've stated

this

in a number of my past games), and PM happens to be that player. Especially considering after just taking a look at his recent posts, he's not active in any of his other games, either.

I'm starting to get a righteous town feel from you. This is depressing.

UNVOTE:

I want to hear more from Vio. He picked a "good" time to go missing.

[TraceyLyn11]

@Vio:

Explain to me again why it makes sense to vote the person who your other strong scum read is voting rather than the person who has a vote from one of your null-town reads?

@Vio:

Bold/italic: Damn skippy I did. I don't agree with policy lynches. I see zero benefits in them, especially in a game as small as newbies. With that being said, why would I allow the discussion to continue? Explain to me how it's scummy.

@Mit:

Why do you think one of [Klick/I] is scum? Why can't it be both of us? Why Klick over me? What do you think the lurkers are hiding?

@Vio:

GNR: I don't know what he was trying to accomplish with his first post, but I don't really trust it. There is a possibility he could be trying to earn early town points by feigning PR-protection while simultaneously limiting town information by keeping the Jailkeeper from us. Even stranger is the fact that Jailkeepers are usually on the scum side, and there is none in this game.

Could you explain this? I don't follow.

I got annoyed because I was getting the feeling several of my questions had gone unanswered. I was right. Another post incoming.

[TraceyLyn11]

So... I JUJST LOST MY ENTIRE RESPONSE DUJDEHRIUGRYGYFFIUGR. Expect this one to be slightly more half-assed.

[TraceyLyn11]

I've never lost a response - ever.

HOW

It logged me out randomly. ajsiseuiieiegid

[TraceyLyn11]

By never walling.

He's walled plenty of times!

Thor, thoughts on Mit's hop back onto PM?

[TraceyLyn11]

@Tracey: So now I'm robotic, I'm making you uneasy, I'm righteous town AND depressing? Wow, I wish I had that sort of effect on girls all the time.

I chuckled.

Seriously though, I accept that I might be wrong about PMyst. But it just seems like he's trying so much to stay away from talking, particularly since he still logs on regularly (most recently, 4 hours ago or so), it just seems too much. And he even made the fatuous claim that he forgot about MS, when he's been logging on and just not participating. It just seems too scummy. And it didn't help much when 4 people suddenly jumped to his defense. I thought I was missing something obvious.

Did you miss the part about him not being active in any of his other games either? As for the him logging on, I don't know why he'd lie about something so simple. It could be that his computer or phone or whatever automatically logs him on. Who knows.

Yeah I doubt I'm going to get it as well, but it's always possible.

I agree with Vio on this. This feels like you're trying to stall a lynch from happening (or, more likely, stall it so it becomes a deadline frenzy). You unvoted so you could wait for two people who have yet to respond to anything... Respond?

I feel like I'd buy this more if you also hadn't responded to me as well in the same post you blew him off.

I told you I had to stop somewhere.

I haven't even read this. I'll get back to it later if I decide it's worth doing.

(make sense yet?)

No. That sounds fairly normal to me.

I think we're arguing semantics at this point.

I think I'm about to call her town though.

Explain.

Though, Tracy with an 'e' why no new vote?

Didn't know who to place one on. I'm starting to get that feeling that my tunneling on Vio has affected my read on him. Like, I still think he's scum. I just think that I might only be seeing that because of the tunneling I've done. My other option for a vote is Cheery (it does look like I'm OMGUSing, doesn't it? >_>), but I'm still fairly unsure of him.

Mit's recent hop back onto PM bothers me a lot. I can't figure out a clear stance on Mit.

I was going to respond to Tracey's last wall on me, but I realized through all the comments that nobody wants to hear another endless wall of worthless banter between us. Except Tracey.

I was thinking that ("Well,

I'd

like to hear his response...") as I was reading.

(players who contribute nothing are inherently detrimental to the town one way or another, and every day is more critical so to "waste" the lynch on them later isn't exactly an option)

[...]

there's been discussion of a PM lynch which in my opinion is still fruitless (the lynch, not the discussion).

(2) I don't exactly support a PM lynch with the state of our (well, my) current scum-reads. If at the end of the day they need a hammer, I'll do it without hesitation. But I'm not going to actively push the lynch.

(that is, if I forget everything she's done this game and ignore her OMGUS).

In regards to Cheery, his posts have been very sheepy of everyone as of late (especially me, as mentioned earlier)

Hmm.

Town, or else I'd be voting her by now. In fact, I have a town read on everyone who is caught in the posting flurry, which is yet another reason why the PMyst vote is just so damn good.

Why hasn't Riggs sparked your attention then? And why do you have town reads on us?

I'm probably also game for a Violet lynch.

Explain.

Sorry for the inactivity, got swamped with school work. I don't have a whole lot of time now, but will later tonight.

WHY COULDN'T YOU HAVE JUST LET YOURSELF BE REPLACED. GAH.

[TraceyLyn11]

@Thor: Thoughts on his obeying without a second thought.

Fair enough.

So gut?

[TraceyLyn11]

@Tracey: Stop misrepping please. I did have other thoughts. I posted them with my vote switch. I didn't vote PMyst because Thor told me to, I did so because PMyst is still scum. And Thor reminded me that I wasn't voting for him any more.

Why do you only accuse me of misrepping you? Thor did as well. Or, by what your saying, he'd be considered as misrepping you.

Why PM over me?

[TraceyLyn11]

HI RIGGS. I'd like to see that post of yours tonight!

Nacho's fairly lurky this game.

[TraceyLyn11]

@Robo: I didn't realize there was an invisible player in this game. Why does he have it out for Mit?

[TraceyLyn11]

?

(Shhhhh)

[TraceyLyn11]

@Thor:
1. I don't believe you.
3. Stobbit! I want to know.

[TraceyLyn11]

PM I SEE YOU. READ THE DAMN THREAD. OR PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF CHOCOLATE REPLACE OUT.

[TraceyLyn11]

....He's gone...

GOD DAMN IT

[TraceyLyn11]

No wait! He's back!

[TraceyLyn11]

Oh gawd if you don't deliver, I will punch you in the face! Why can't you make the post now, PM?

[TraceyLyn11]

@Tracey: I didn't notice a misrep from Thor. He said that he requested from me to move to PMyst. This is true, he did ask me to get back on PMyst. I didn't do it because Thor requested it (I have a large beard too, so that's alright). I did it because I agree that PMyst is scum. And he's scummier than you, because although you protecting PMyst can be a scummy thing to do, you might be town who just really really wants to believe the best of PMyst (this is noble, but misguided). Whereas PMyst's scumminess is clear as day.

Mah bad. I misinterpreted his post. After looking back at the several posts in question, when you hopped onto PM you said:

"@Thor: Yeah, he's still scum, Tracey's attempt at defending him hasn't changed that."

You say this in response to my saying you were just following Thor's orders:

"And Thor reminded me that I wasn't voting for him any more."

Three things I find issues with here. First, in your vote post, it didn't sound like you forgot at all. Maybe that's semantics, though. The more interesting thing I found was, in post #465 there was a vote count. Only five posts later came your vote. Not to mention the obvious... YOU VOTED ME ONE DAY BEFORE YOUR VOTE POST. And you acknowledge very clearly in this post that you are voting me.

Please explain.

You are clearly delusional. I don't see anything.

woop woop woop woop

HAHAHAHHAAHA ICWATUDIDTHAR YOU'RE SO FUNNY AAHHHHHH.

Seriously though, if PMyst's promised post doesn't satisfy me, my vote is staying on him until someone outright claims scum, or something.

This feels oh so much like an easy ticket to tunnel PM (not that you weren't already, but).

First off, he's Thor. If have to assume he's town or I get nightkilled.

Huh? Nightkilled?

Her

posts seem pro-town from the start. Participating in conversations and open to ideas while still holding to

her

reads.

You're

sure

you've read the thread?

That all being said, Ima VOTE: PMysterious
This guy is scum and needs rope.

That was the big catch-up post? And it ended with this? Sigh.

Scum can bus and town can be dead wrong. Neither influences who I personally think is scum.

I quoted the wrong question (probably should have read it fully first..). The one I wanted was actually a Mala quote:

Why are you voting for Tracey, when you scum read on Klick was doubled.
Which brings me to the question why aren't you voting your strongest scum read rather than voting the weaker scum read.

A little outdated, but it can still be answered based on your reasoning at the time.

Because discussion provides information, and it was an important discussion to have. Explain how squelching an important discussion is town.

What are your thoughts on night kill analysis day one?

It was almost a week since he has posted. Do you remember what you said about a player after a week goes by?

He could have easily looked back at his reasoning...

Unvote, Vote: Violet

PM is obvtown now. I wanted to wait and see his response to L-1 since it terrifies him, but I suppose that isn't really necessary at this point. Tracey, you can have your lynch now.

Explain. Also:

Why hasn't Riggs sparked your attention then? And why do you have town reads on us?

A wise man once said:

"hi

tracey

nacho i put tons of effort into this shit
respond and explain

how i am wrong

ty <3"

[TraceyLyn11]

Re Tunnel: So you're saying that him coming in and promising a post soon is town behaviour? Because that's what prompted me to say what I did in post 500. He, once again, came in, said nothing and left. It's not tunneling, if they're acting scummy.

Re Thor reminding me to vote for PMyst: I was using colourful language. It's not that I actually forgot where my vote was, it's more that during that time I was also dealing with other things and wasn't being optimal with my vote. But now I am, once again.

You are most definitely tunneling. As for my remark about your post leaving it open for you to tunnel, I said that because you made the comment,

"if PMyst's promised post doesn't satisfy me"

. You claim to know his meta. Not to mention you've seen his play this game. Do you expect something that will "satisfy" you? Because I don't think you do. The reason I mentioned tunneling specifically is because the second part of the sentence (

"my vote is staying on him"

followed by an impossible scenario - it's against the rules) gives you an excuse to keep your vote on him even in a deadline frenzy. Let's pretend you are scum. Let's pretend a PM lynch will happen. You get to be early on the wagon. Generally seen as townish. Now let's pretend somebody else will be lynched. Your partner has the go ahead to hop on that person's wagon while you get to sit all comfy and cozy on a PM wagon while claiming, "Well, I've thought him scum. And I

said

I wouldn't switch my vote." While a silly and naive thing to say, it could possibly work with you being newer (assuming you are not an alt) and it appearing you are stubborn - a trait often given to town.

You had me as a scum read during a time when other people had me as a scum read. How is that not optimal? You've been going with the flow of the wagons, I've noticed. Just something to note.

First of all, you never made a case on him to begin with. But second, I don't see how now he's obvtown when he's made one tiny post since you called him scum and it's telling us all not to vote him. That doesn't scream obvtown, that screams survival.

He knows his own meta, that was covered ten pages ago. Any meta argument is useless.

I agree and disagree. He's aware enough of his meta that I think his freaking out as scum (never seen, but others have mentioned it) has diminished greatly. However, he does tend to say ridiculously scummy things when put close to a lynch. In Fire and Ice it looked like he was giving up for Klick... So I do agree; his freaking out at a lynch is unlikely. But according solely to the Fire and Ice game, he's still pretty scummy in what he says when near a lynch, so it may still be pretty easy to tell when he's scum and when he's not.

You want me to answer... Mala's questions. And you ask me how I generally make my catchup posts. And about night kill analysis day 1. Exactly what are you trying to accomplish by forcing me to answer all of these irrelevant things? Is it just to ask me more questions?

They aren't irrelevant at all. I've actually gotten very compelling answers from them; I just have decided not to reveal them yet. I was planning to if I made a case against you or if you lived to tomorrow. I still haven't quite decided if I am going to hold off or not on making it.

Strawman. Just because my read of Klick doubled doesn't mean it's now stronger than my read on Tracey. It's a stupid question. I was voting my strongest scum read. Someone intelligent such as yourself should be able to recognize that.

You said you thought we were a scum team.

I don't know what world you live in where that doesn't mean two people are at more or less equal places on the scum scale. You saying Klick's read doubled implies he was then scummier than me.

Whoaaaaaaa. Intense appeal (though of which kind, I am unsure... Flattery maybe?). Does not sit well. Does not sit well at all.

There's no night kill to analyze on day one, answer the question.

Bah, duh. Night two I mean. Pretend the flip was a vanilla townie.

Who is your strongest scum read and why aren't you voting for him/her?

Though, Tracy with an 'e' why no new vote?

Didn't know who to place one on. I'm starting to get that feeling that my tunneling on Vio has affected my read on him. Like, I still think he's scum. I just think that I might only be seeing that because of the tunneling I've done. My other option for a vote is Cheery (it does look like I'm OMGUSing, doesn't it? >_>), but I'm still fairly unsure of him.

Mit's recent hop back onto PM bothers me a lot. I can't figure out a clear stance on Mit.

Though, the above quote has changed a bit. I no longer suspect Cheery much. It's mainly between you and Mit.

[TraceyLyn11]

@Tracey: If you also read the wiki entry you linked, you might see how I am not tunneling. My arguments against PMyst are valid, in and of themselves, and not because I have held them for a long time or strongly. I am potentially capable of changing my mind about him, but it's up to him to convince me to do so, by actually making that post he promised yesterday and making some valid points in it, for example. See, the difference between what I am doing and confirmation bias, is that PMyst's behaviour has not been townish yet, at any point in time. I am not ignoring some of his behaviour in favour of my pet theory; his behaviour has been the same this whole time. Again, if the target's behaviour is consistently scummy, it's not tunneling; it's common sense.
Anyway, my claim is not an excuse. I think he is the scummiest player in the game. I am voting for him, because I think he is scum. This is the best reason to have your vote on someone. Also, no, I'm not an alt. I wouldn't be a newbie, if I were, I imagine.
And me voting you was not optimal, because I am more certain of PMyst's scumminess, than yours. As I said, yours could be attributed to being protective of your town-read (inexplicable as it may be) and therefore not necessarily scummy after all.
You also mention the flow of the wagons. Let's see how I've voted so far:
Random on Tazaro. Then first serious vote on PMyst. Stayed on PMyst until you finally convinced me that I should give him more time to come back. During this time the only one voting PMyst was you, for a brief period as a "reaction test". Then I voted for Riggs. I was all alone on him until the replacements. I went back to PMyst, my original read. You can call this the first wagon I followed, but that is silly. Then I moved onto you, when there was a wagon on you, but this was because you continued to inexplicably protect PMyst. Then I moved back to PMyst, who, again, was my first and biggest scumread. So, stop trying to throw insinuations around with "just something to note", as if you're not trying to imply that the only reason for my votes was who else was voting whom. You're still misrepping and you need to stop.

... So you're not tunneling because

you

think he's scummy,

you've

thought he was scummy since the start of this game,

your

read is "strong",

your

arguments are valid, and "common sense". Yes, I did use a bit of a strawman. Oh well. My point is:

"it can be blinding to new or better options that come along."

You may

say

that you could switch to someone else if PM could convince you of his being town or if someone else looked scummier, but that's like a fat kid saying, "Well, I could be skinnier if I wanted to be..." Of course they could.. But the likelihood of it is slim due to the blinding nature of

food

tunneling. Looking purely at votes (I'm too lazy to look through -words-), you voted Taz (RVS), PM, Riggs, PM, me, PM. Aside from Taz, you have kept a solid scum read on PM since your second post in the game. We are now twenty-two pages in, and that read has not faltered. The only reason you've changed your vote is because we "convinced" you PM was a bad vote and because I was defending PM. You can defend your read all you like, but it doesn't change the fact that a normal read doesn't last an entire game day.

Let us analyze your vote history... There was Cheery who you were about to vote but didn't due to my leaving the wagon. You put me at L-1 in a time when a lot of people thought I was scum. Not to mention your scum read on me came out of nowhere. Before Thor and Nacho came in you had me at around, what I would consider (see post for reference), a null-town read. It wasn't until I had three votes on me and several people were expressing suspicion of me that you expressed yours (see post for reference). As for the third PM vote (the one after Thor and Nacho replaced in), you voted him once there were two votes on him and his lack of activity was becoming a large discussion. Now let's look at when you jump

off

of wagons. You dropped your vote on PM in favor of Riggs three posts after I switched my vote to Mala. You dropped your vote on Riggs as soon as Thor and Nacho started pointing fingers at PM and I. You dropped your vote on PM as more people were suspecting me. You dropped your vote on me as the PM wagon gained speed again. This all isn't even including the people you were going to vote (well, Cheery, but besides him). Don't you dare tell me I'm misrepresenting you. You telling me that these votes count because you thought these people were scum aren't worth jack to me.

Prove

that your votes counted, that you aren't tunneling, that you aren't just going with the flow of wagons.

I'd really love to see how on earth you think I'm scum for what I always do regardless of alignment. You have three days.

... Or what? You'll leave your vote on me?

Except I voted

you

. That alone shows you exactly where I stand. I thought you were a scum team based on your interactions with each other and how both of you were scummy.

That would be relevant if I wasn't questioning the truthfulness behind your vote and lack thereof...

We've had this discussion in real life. I wouldn't hang out with you if you had the brains of a dull brick with an extra chromosome. Though the fact that you'd point it out like it's something scummy is definitely something I'm keeping tabs on.

It is scummy. I don't care if you actually think Mala is intelligent and her response was not. The fact is you tried to use that appeal to further your argument instead of just explaining why she was incorrect.

It depends heavily on the situation, but I find most NK analysies to be nigh-worthless. It's all WIFOM. For instance, I almost always kill Nacho as scum because he's usually a strong player, but I doubt I would this game (assuming he wouldn't be my partner) because he seems distant and disinterested and isn't exactly convincing anyone of anything. But even if you knew that about me, it would still be worthless to try and analyze it that way because I know that's what I do so I can change it at will, and it's situational. And that's just me - depending on who my partner would be in that situation they may or may not agree with my meta-views. The combined chemistry is something you can't even begin to account for due to the sheer numbers of possible combinations and unpredictable nature (9x8=72 possible combos, plus synergistic chemistry between the two people, plus a hidden conversation we have no access to).

Scum have their own reasons for doing things that are so far removed from the information I have as town that guessing is like shooting a target blindfolded with an ill-maintained 16th century pistol. It'll probably just shoot blow up in your face.

Now spin my personal views on NK analysis into something scummy.

Interesting.

I DON'T CARE WHO, ANYONE CAN ASK FOR MY SHEEP AND WILL HAVE IT IMMEDIATELY

Vote Vio. I was totally about to quote my saying you should join the wagon with me... But it appears I didn't make that post, let alone the vote. I'm assuming it was because I was going to post it, but then my teacher told me to put my phone away, and I thought it had sent... Who knows.

Anyways,
VOTE: Vio
JOIN ME THOR.

[TraceyLyn11]

Hey guys. I was hoping to make a Vio case today, but I woke up way later than expected. I still will, but it'll be pretty half-assed.

>more later<

[TraceyLyn11]

Case on Vio first. Then catch up in my other game. Then catch up here if time.

[TraceyLyn11]

I about had a heart attack because I thought deadline was tonight at 11:59... But nope! Tomorrow! Post incoming very soon.

[TraceyLyn11]

@Robo: How many prods have PM and Riggs each had?

[TraceyLyn11]

The reason I asked this question:

Spoiler:

Did you read through and then quote the information you were going to use in your initial catch-up post, or did you come back to it after you had completed reading over the game?

Honestly I'm not sure why it matters so much to you, but I quoted things of particular interest while I was reading, and then commented on them accordingly after I had read to near-completion.

Was because in his first and second catch up posts, he quotes only my posts. This is interesting because he says he quoted as he went along. With that being said, it looks as though he had it planned ahead of time that he was going to try and take me out early or tunnel me early. I later asked this question:

Spoiler:

What are your thoughts on night kill analysis day one?

Night two I mean. Pretend the flip was a vanilla townie.

It depends heavily on the situation, but I find most NK analysies to be nigh-worthless. It's all WIFOM. For instance, I almost always kill Nacho as scum because he's usually a strong player, but I doubt I would this game (assuming he wouldn't be my partner) because he seems distant and disinterested and isn't exactly convincing anyone of anything. But even if you knew that about me, it would still be worthless to try and analyze it that way because I know that's what I do so I can change it at will, and it's situational. And that's just me - depending on who my partner would be in that situation they may or may not agree with my meta-views. The combined chemistry is something you can't even begin to account for due to the sheer numbers of possible combinations and unpredictable nature (9x8=72 possible combos, plus synergistic chemistry between the two people, plus a hidden conversation we have no access to).

Scum have their own reasons for doing things that are so far removed from the information I have as town that guessing is like shooting a target blindfolded with an ill-maintained 16th century pistol. It'll probably just shoot blow up in your face.

Was to counter his statement that the policy lynch talk was an important discussion for the town. Like night kill analysis, it's highly controversial, and it's very WIFOMy whether it is a good thing to do or not. He literally said,

"Discussion provides information, and it was an important discussion to have."

He clearly disagrees with night kill analysis. One (myself, for instance) could counter that if he thinks policy lynch discussion is valuable, then by the same vein of "discussion provides information", night kill analysis is just as valuable for the town because it provides discussion and information. I found it very off that he would attack me for not wanting to continue a discussion that I clearly thought hindered the town - especially when he shared the same sentiments about it as I and yet could not comprehend why I would want the discussion to stop. It felt much to white-knighty of him (in regards to Mala).

Now onto actually analyzing his ISO:

He comes in and makes his catch up posts. He begins looking for associative tells. I haven't seen Vio's play in a very long time (okay, a year), and I can't seem to recall if he had a clear stance on the matter, but going solely off of information that could be gained from it, I don't like that he was looking for the team on day one. In his post #251 he gives his read on Mala. He has nothing but good things to say about her. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I don't like that he gave her such a low rating on the town scale (especially considering he didn't mention her being a town read two ISO posts earlier) after not pointing out any scummy aspects of her. I dislike how he even stopped to consider a Klick-me team because of how obvious that would be... But that's based off of my pride being hurt.

He tried to say my vote hopping was scummy because I was trying to remove pressure from myself... In a time when there was none on me. When I pointed this out, he ignored it. In post #254 he gives a paragraph to his thoughts on why he thinks Klick is scum and why he thinks Klick's read on me is fabricated. This point of his:

Most of your content seems forced and ingenuine, or just plain wrong, like how you call Tracey out for her #36 and imply it's scummy, when that post was half questions (which aren't reasoning by definition) and half discussion of RQS (which was only tangentially related to the game).

Shows a clear sign of misrepresentation. You can see this by looking at mine and Klick's posts:

Spoiler:

The first thing that really tipped me off by Tracey is that her #36

paragraph on PM

makes no sense.

Her conclusion that PM was reaction fishing seems far-fetched and unreasonable

, given her past experience with PM. At first, I speculated on a Tracey-PM team, and that's why I wanted to hear from PM before revealing my read on Tracey; I kinda wanted to get PM onto the subject of Tracey's post and see if he went along with Tracey's idea that he was reaction testing. However, PM's post was a town tell. There must have been some other reason for her to think that.

@Mit: I do RQS as both alignments. I made that statement because there's often one or more people who tend to state their dislike for RQS or the lack of benefits from it - those people tend to be the experienced players (note: I only really play in newbie games, so those are the games I'll be referring to). Since this is a game of predominantly (or all) experienced players, I expected more complaining. Instead I got several people who willingly responded, one who found it necessary to point out he couldn't respond so he wasn't, and one who actually disagreed with it. The lack of complaints towards the RQS made me uneasy.

As for PM, why do you think he voted undecided?

I'll go out on a limb and say it was a reaction fish.

Looks to me like PM got a bite (yes, I did just make that analogy). Why do you think voting undecided was scummy? You mentioned voting for a no lynch or not voting would be better - would either of those achieve better results? What's different from PM saying he's undecided compared to Cheery saying he wasn't going to vote due to not remembering the players names? Both were useless statements.

@Cheery: Why was the RQS insignificant, and why did you choose to say that you couldn't do the RQS (because you were on your phone) rather than you wouldn't (because it was insignificant)?

@Riggs: It was scummy because it seems like you're trying way to hard to appease us.

Klick was clearly talking about the paragraph I made about PM (bolded). He goes on to explain exactly what he's referring to (underlined). Yet, Vio plays ignorant and criticizes Klick for saying half of my

entire

post (not just the PM portion) was questions, and the other half was RQS related information.

Vio then comes back to the rescue of Mala (he's been doing this consistently anytime she's been attacked. Either to draw connections between them or out of a subconscious need to protect his buddy, I'm unsure) and says she wasn't discouraging scumhunting (though, I do agree; I fail to see what Klick was referring to).

Vio goes on to say Klick's criticism of my post #53 was bad because he was basing it off of a lack of pro-town content in my post. However, three posts after Klick's post (see this for reference), Klick explains that that was the weakest of his reasoning against me. Something to note is in Klick's post, he has Mala listed as a scum read as well.

Then there's the infamous line of Vio's:

"My stance on Tracey hasn't changed at all, and my scumread on Klick has redoubled."

I still disagree with his assertion that that made sense. Based on the definition he gave us, it says his read on Klick had become much greater or more intense. He thought we were a scum team, so Klick and I were obviously in the same range of scumminess. That being said, if I stayed the same, and Klick grew much scummier, Vio's read should have, therefore, transferred to Klick. Instead, he chose to stay on me. This could imply he wanted to continue tunneling me or Klick was his scumbuddy or Klick was a person he didn't want to sacrifice to a lynch. Either way, I don't like how his read seemed to stay virtually the same as before on Klick.

Moving on, I point out that his conclusion of null-town on Mala doesn't make sense. Vio said,

"She hasn't pulled a Tracey and walled the crap out of the place. For one, there is simply not enough information to make more than a vague guess, for two, you have to pull all the stops to get a full 10 on my scale (mod-confirmed)"

Which would make sense except for the small detail of Commie and Mit being his town reads and Commie had only made eleven posts by the time he said this - Mala had made twenty-three. I can understand his town read on Mit - even if I disagree(d?) with it - because Mit had been consistently posting and asking/responding to questions. However, Mala had made many more [content-filled] posts than Commie. Once again, he holds Mala back as a low town read when his actions and words say she is otherwise.

I find it amusing that Vio later comments on everyone's lack of participation and how "nobody but Tracey has responded to [his] thoughts." By that point he was only responding to me, only questioning me, only paying attention to me. The only times he referred to anyone else was when someone directly asked him to do so (not counting his excerpt on Klick, but even that got tied back to me).

Spoiler:

Sooooo, I think Mala and Vi are both scummy. Vi bothers me even more than Mala. Plus there's revenge (i.e. OMGUS). But it's mostly that he's scummy.

I feel like it would be worthwhile to mention that you haven't pointed out a single thing I've done that is scummy, and are just voting me because I called you scum.

Town would be clear-headed enough to realize that just because someone is against you does not mean they differ in alignment.

Why you believe Mala is scum is also unclear, but to somewhat of a lesser extent. I have not seen your case against her. Infact, you have not made cases - you have pointed fingers and repeatedly asked people to sheep you.

His post bothers me for obvious reasons. He took my joke as an opportunity to discredit my read against him. The bolded really bothers me because it has a condescending feel to it, and I know from experience that Vio is not a condescending person. You can also see this later on in his appeal to Mala.

Now the policy lynch debate really starts heating up. I've already given my thoughts on it, so I'm not going to repeat it again.

I have noticed that he has repeatedly commented on my lack of cases. I have repeatedly responded that I only make cases to derail wagons I disapprove of, when we're near deadline, or if someone asks me to. He seems very "bothered" that I have not made any cases, yet, even though I've stated it as one of my reasons for making cases (specifically did so to see if he would ask me), he has not asked me to make a case. I've told him several times in real life how even if people disagree with my cases or if they think they're bad, I'm often seen as town after I make them because they're so thought out and... Long. That he hasn't asked me to make them gives me the feeling that he could be afraid of people seeing me as more townish but slightly distressed with the fact that my not making cases is "scummy" - something he could push as a reason for my being scum.

I've already showed my dislike of his post #458 with a clear "hmm".

So yeah. MOAR VOTES PLS.

[TraceyLyn11]

COME ON. I PUT ALL THAT TIME INTO THAT. I'D LIKE SOMEONE TO ACTUALLY RESPOND TO IT. SUDEIRBRIRBVURJV

[TraceyLyn11]

Regarding Nightkill analysis part of your case, I have to agree with you and disagree with Violet. As you have seen I do use Nightkill analysis after Day 1 because often there is an underlining reason to why someone was killed that night. Either that reason is sometimes not as visible and you need to dig deeper, but other times it's so obvious it makes you want to disregard it.
The only non-town part of that statement is him disregarding it as WIFOM. You already know that during a past game I suspected Klick because of the Jal kill. Klick played it off with the term "WIFOM". I hate when people disregard NK analysis by WIFOM and more importantly those who do it that way I am always obligated to think of them as scum, but I have to hold myself back.

I don't understand what you mean by disagreeing with Vio and agreeing with me. I don't agree or trust night kill analysis either (or, not until a scum has flipped). I just think that it didn't make sense for Vio to feel the way he did about that but not about policy lynches.

How do you feel about Vio's continuous white-knighting of you?

Only problem is Tracey you actually know who Violet is and what his main account is. There are other people who do not so I can't even go compare old games if I wanted too.

If I remember correctly, the only times I mentioned his meta was about him being condescending and about associative tells. For the latter, I explained that I couldn't even remember to begin with, though, so I was judging him solely on how I often judge people for using them.

What are your thoughts on Vio? You were pretty wishy-washy with your response to my case.

[TraceyLyn11]

@Nacho: Why? What are your thoughts on my post? I know you're already voting Vio, but I WANT CONVERSATION, DAMN IT.

[TraceyLyn11]

People often judge whiteknighting as a scum tell, but I don't. His whiteknighting isn't bothering me. His posts are still giving me town gut vibes.

Not everyone is going to agree or disagree on the same things. People aren't always going to see eye to eye on posts.

Are you sure you don't mean VC analysis Tracey? VC analysis without a scum flip is hard to find connections to scum, yet NK is a totally different thing. People find VC analysis hard to spot scum even after they flip, but as I previously stated that NK's always has a purpose to why they are killed. Maybe I put my trust into NK analysis too much, but to each their own.

I already stated that I didn't like him saying NK analysis is "WIFOM" because I wholehearty disagree with it, but overall I still have town vibes coming from him.

I'm not going to vote Vio and I'm not going to vote you. I feel as the argument you two are having is most likely coming from town vs. town.

---

Thanks Nacho, I'm glad you feel that way.

Why don't you think white-knighting is a scum tell?

I know. The issue I have is that he agreed with me but still attacked what I did.

I don't like VC analysis either. Night kill analysis is bad before a flip (and even then, you have to be pretty good at it for it to be effective) because there are so many different reasons for scum to kill someone. I usually kill to get rid of PRs. A lot of other people kill threats. And others kill randomly. And others kill the most strategic of people. And others kill to cause confusion. And so on. It doesn't make any sense to try and outguess them.

[TraceyLyn11]

Way to ignore my case, Vio.

@Nacho: I just... What the hell.

@Cheery: You said you ignored half of it and heavily implied that the parts you did read was masked by your confirmation bias. Of course your town read on Vio wouldn't change.

This game is now starting to piss me off.

[TraceyLyn11]

@Nacho: I just... What the hell.

We will not convince Mala. We will not convince Cheery. We will not convince Mitillos. We cannot depend on PM or GNR because they are lurkers and will not be back before deadline. Thor will switch, but that only gives us 3. Which means that even if a MIRACLE comes up, we will not get a Vio lynch today and thus further pushing is useless. He will die tomorrow, I pinky promise. But I need you to play the compromise game now.

Fffff fine.

I don't understand your jump on Riggs over PM, Nacho. I still don't think PM is likely to flip scum, but at least Riggs has provided more content than PM.

[TraceyLyn11]

Riggs, I see you. Claim.

[TraceyLyn11]

You're not. But we're a few hours to deadline, and it's going to be PM or you.

[TraceyLyn11]

@Nacho: I reread your wall post (or at least the part on Riggs). I don't... Know how I feel about him. I feel like he's more likely to flip scum than PM, but then again we'd actually get

some

sort of content from him in later days. Not to mention to get a wagon on Riggs up to a lynch today is very unlikely.

I don't know what I should do right now. Will think on this.

[TraceyLyn11]

Actually, let's do this;

Unvote: PMysterious
Vote: Violet

Let's not leave that hammer in his hands.
I still hold my movability as previously discussed.

yaaaaay

Just three more votes... *crosses fingers*

[TraceyLyn11]

We're running low on time. No one is coming to an agreement. Half of you are lurking.

VOTE: PM
Someone hammer.

[TraceyLyn11]

Unvote: Violet
Vote: PMysterious

I think Nacho was hammer.
If he wasn't then I'm happy to be the hammer.
If PM is scum I am dead serious that you should all lynch Nacho tomorrow.
Don't think this is a random Thor commentary - ruddy do it.

Explaaaaaaain.

Also, wow. You guys both got here ridiculously fast after I made my post.

[TraceyLyn11]

I still think you made a bad choice.

Well duh. But better than a no lynch. Or were you thinking otherwise?

[TraceyLyn11]

Nacho - because he went from defending the slot as obv. town to lynching it to free up the might prowess of Milquetoast as though that was a drastic issue he'd described as needing to be done.

He also said "at least", implying that wasn't his only reasoning. Did you think Nacho was scummy before this, or is this your sole reasoning?

Same can go for Nacho, honestly. About the reasoning in regards to the PM hammer. Though, I imagine I know the answer.

[TraceyLyn11]

@Thor: Do you think that was Nacho's only reasoning for hammering PM?

@Cheery: Did you miss the part about no one agreeing and there being little time left? >_>

[TraceyLyn11]

Why does it feel like you're trying to convince

me

that

I'm

scum?

I am not doing that. I just find it curious that you have commented on my lack of a case several times, and yet... When I present one, you completely ignore it.

Do you think that matters in any way?

Yes, I do. Way to dodge the question, though.

Reads:

Vio is scum.
Cheery's recent posting is giving me town vibes (which is a relief because I've been pretty confused about him).
I've been unsure of Nacho and Thor since they've replaced in.
Riggs' jump to PM was scummy. He's somewhere in the nullish range. I could argue null-scum and null-town for him.
Mala is in the null-town area.
Mit's in the null-scum area. His recent posting has been giving me better vibes. His drop off in activity is worrisome, though.

[TraceyLyn11]

There's been a hammer. I don't really have much to add. I'm just waiting to see if I was right about PMyst.

Everyone else is having a conversation frenzy.. Why can't you join in?

Okay then - no, I do not think that was all of Nacho's reasoning and the post was phrased that way - but I do think it was primary reasoning or else he would have said the other stuff considering he was hammering an 'obv town'. Him showing up and expanding on his reads and claiming that info as secondary proves my point about the skeeviness of it and also confirms that he had other thoughts...but also shows that they don't matter.

Now you can explain how getting that revelation from me mattered in any way at all.

It mattered because I personally took Nacho's comment as an offhand joke. The fact that that is your sole reasoning for finding him scummy, and that you are going out of your way to make his post seem scummy seems off to me. It could be a simple matter of semantics - it came off as a joke to me, serious to you - but I feel like you're looking too deeply at something so small. Especially since you're saying his response to your accusations is more reasoning for him to be scum. His response was basically, "I said that because that's a positive affect of lynching PMtown, but I lynched him because there was no other option." Which is completely what I had expected him to say - or anyone else, for that matter. Why did you not?

[TraceyLyn11]

There are no such things as off hand jokes in mafia.
Just as RVS = reasoning to be looked at later, so do jokes.

I honestly didn't even expect him to vote him considering his earlier stance, and expected him to sit back and let me roll in and do the hammer as he must have expected me to do. The fact that he jumped it earlier (by hours, mind) and tossed in some odd reasoning means that if PM flips scum you better power speed lynch Nacho - why do you not see that?

Because I specifically asked for someone to hammer. Why do you think it's town of someone to give someone else the responsibility of hammering when they very clearly can?

[TraceyLyn11]

@Thor: I thought PM was town too... Am I scum? You seem to be forgetting that we were approaching deadline.

@Nacho: Your post is...

[TraceyLyn11]

@Thor: What was the difference between my explaining my vote with three reasons instead of just saying the obvious - that it was for deadline - and Nacho's saying a joke?

Which, by the way, I meant to disagree with you about. There are certain jokes that can be compared to RVS (such as awkward ones that aren't translated effectively), but I think Nacho's was literally no more than a joke.

[TraceyLyn11]

@Nacho: Your post is...

We're dancing a little ways down the rabbit hole. But we're big boys, so we can handle it.

Wat.

[TraceyLyn11]

@Thor: 1. My original stance was that PM was town. Same with Nacho... So far as I'm aware neither of us changed our minds in regard to the hammer. I don't understand what you're getting at with this.

2. But you're making a big deal of something that... Isn't. Like, if you thought he was scummy for other reasons, it'd make sense that you saw the scum motive behind this and wanted him dead... But this is your only reasoning for thinking he's scum, and you keep saying his reaction since then has been scummy. It just feels... Opportunistic for lack of a better word.

Why do you seem more nice this game?

(also, hilarious metaphor)

@Nacho: Why do you think I'm town?

[TraceyLyn11]

@Tracy with an 'e'

1. A lesser read than Nacho's read though, also you didn't obfuscate it, also you didn't have the weird speed rush, also you're not the last vote on the wagon (which...seriously, is kind of a big thing to me as you can tell looking at any of my games)

2. Again, do you grok how I react to hammer votes usually? If this is opportunistic, I partake of that opportunity in basically all my games as town and scum.

3. Because I got a town read on you earlier and haven't been yelling at you personally so much, but am instead yelling at others? Call it a hunch.

1. Bah.

2. I'm not saying you freaking out over the hammerer is opportunistic. I'm saying you attacking him for his "reasoning" is.

3. It's not just to me - you seem nicer in general this game.

Tracey:
I think I've explained this before, so lookit that big wall post that I did earlier. But in the new pile for Tracey-town is how you've been interacting with me-Thor in our little argument these past few pages. You're sort of defending me but not really tossing suspicion on Thor as a result, which is sort of seriously useless for Tracey-scum. You also seem a bit lost at points, which I don't think you'd be so ready to admit as scum.

Why didn't you wait the remaining hours to hammer?

I just found out I was hammered. Seriously, I was on a trip for the weekend so I could barely post. How do you guys welcome me back? By hammering your own doctor. Now I wonder why I never claimed beforehand.

I see why people complain about your play now.

[TraceyLyn11]

Bloody knew it.

I always just want to pet your avatar. It just looks so SOFT

Anyways.

[TraceyLyn11]

Thread is never locked unless mod says so or actually locks it. Getting to press the action after lynch is also pro-town.
That said, no real issues with that, I just think you played it poorly.

I think I agree with this statement.

Vote: Violet

Let's do this.

Explain?

I do agree, however:
VOTE: Vio

I believe that makes Thor more obvtown than he already was, and if we work off Nacho's suspects, we arrive at GNR and Vio.

Why do you assume the scum were trying to kill off people who suspected them? Why not PRs? Why not based on experience? Why not to cause confusion or WIFOM? Why not randomly? Why not for shits and giggles? Etc., etc. Night analysis cannot be trusted; don't use it.

Why is Thor obvtown?

Also, why no vote?

[TraceyLyn11]

I disagree with you on NK analysis Tracey. I have seen it work well, but then there has been only one game where it backfired literally on me.

Thor is obvtown because he would probably have kept Nacho alive if he were scum to make use of that "case" he had made during twilight.

Explain?

My case is 'Why not?'
Also - Nacho died.

Can someone explain to me how night kill analysis is good when scum have not flipped? You don't know the motives of the scum, it's ridiculous to try and outguess them.

@Mala: Just because it's "worked" doesn't mean you were right about the reasoning. You could say that the scum killed someone because they were suspicious of them, but in reality the scum may have killed them because they thought they were a PR. And who knows, maybe you have gotten lucky before. But night kill analysis is only helpful once a scum has flipped (because, ya know,

you don't know who's making the kill

) or if you know the person so well that you could pretty accurately tell who they would night kill and for what reasons - and even that is faulty.

@Cheery: Explain further, please.

@Thor: 'Why not?' isn't good enough. You had Mala, Riggs, Nacho, and Mit in your scum pool. One had flipped, and he was town. Why aren't you pursuing any of the others? I also find it very hard to believe that your biggest reason against Vio is based on night kill analysis.

[TraceyLyn11]

Can you explain to me how night kill analysis requires a scum flip?
You're thinking vote count analysis.

No I'm not. If you know there is only one scum left, you can look at people for how

they

would make the kill. Still very faulty and WIFOMy, but better than trying to outguess the team when there's not a flip - 'cause then you're trying to outguess two people. And you have no idea who suggested the kill, how willing to participate with the kill each were, etc. For instance. Let's say I make kills solely against people I think are PRs. Then let's say my partner makes kills solely on people who suspect him. But he compromised with what I wanted to do so long as he got to make the kill. And let's say the kill was on someone who had my partner as a strong town read. Well then, people would see the kill and, knowing him, would think that he wasn't scum because the person didn't suspect him.

And that's an example that has concrete "they never do this" or "they always do this". Most people (for fear of meta as well as needing to go with the flow of the specific game) are more flexible and their circumstances depend on key factors in the game. Trying to outguess the mafia's kill is ridiculous and provides nothing good,

especially

when there has not been a scum flip.

Correct.
So?

You are right that probably the entirety of my issue with Vio isn't the NKA - but I think that's enough to start talking about.

So... What happened to them?

So you choose the most WIFOMy of topics to begin a discussion about your apparent scumread rather than starting a discussion based off of less shaky "evidence"? Okay, Thor, okay.

[TraceyLyn11]

I actually think most scum kill people for either looking quite town and/or for suspecting scum. The two are fairly connected and do not require scum flips to get info on them.
Also, by your own stated view - a scum flip would not make that situation any clearer, so...

What happened to what? You're mistaking 'dropping them' with 'not discussing them yet'. Again, it's day start, relax and be quiet if you have nothing functional to add.
Good to know my other evidence is less shaky - no worries then.

I -usually- base kills off of who could be a PR. I've seen several others do so as well. I've also seen scum use a random generator to make their kill. Using night kill analysis as a supporting factor to a case on someone is

okay

I guess. Using it as the entire case is not, which is why I'm getting so frustrated - it seems as though that's what a lot of you are leading up to.

That was not my stated view. My view was that a scum flip would make it more clear, but not by a large amount.

I simply asked a question; I did not mistake anything with anything because I was not assuming anything.. Once again you failed to actually answer my question. I just want to know why you are pursuing Violet and not any of your other stated scum reads.

What isn't functional about what I'm saying? I'm questioning people on what I see as silly logic.

Everything is less shaky than night kill analysis.

[TraceyLyn11]

Thor is obvtown because he would probably have kept Nacho alive if he were scum to make use of that "case" he had made during twilight.

No, I mean what do you mean by this? Which case are you referring to and why would it have benefited Thor so much that he would have wanted to keep Nacho alive?

[TraceyLyn11]

I've seen a scumThor leave a claimed JK alive because he had made a 'case' on them during Day 1, I assume he would have proceeded to do the same thing here. Though I guess I among others had brought into the case, but I feel it is still relatively the same. (though the same thing wasn't noticeable in the other game I've played where Thor was scum, but I guess that was because he did get the mislynch of me down day 1 so he wouldn't have needed to have kept me alive to push on again the next day)
link for reference if you need it

OH. I thought you meant a case Nacho made. I get it now. I agree with Riggs on this, though.

Which means you think it's dicey either way - which defeats the point of complaining about it no matter which method is being used. ::shrug::

Well, one

is

worse than the other. I may not like either, but I'd much rather see the better one be put to use as opposed to the worse one. Which is why I'm complaining.

Yes, though I also quite clearly addressed your question. I think you're mistaking 'answered' with 'answered in the manner I wanted' now. It was an obvious dodge, there are a couple possibilities that I could mean (at least 3 off the top of my head), it's up to you to decide which I did mean and react accordingly.

Considering I asked the question, yes, I would like it answered in the manner I wanted.

My reaction is to simply push for you to actually answer my question. You had scum reads, and you're ignoring them to push what was sure to be a wagon today. I want to know why.

Okay, going off from yesterday, VOTE: CheeryDog

I think this whole discussion on NK anaylsis is somewhat pointless with 2 flips (and 1 was a non-existant doctor).

@CD: Scum don't have to follow the same thing from game to game. They ARE allowed to act differently so that point on Thor would've kept nacho alive because he made a case on him isn't very accurate.

You have... Nothing else to add?

[TraceyLyn11]

HI MIT, JOIN US PLEASE.

[TraceyLyn11]

Mit's avoiding the thread - I thought we established that already.

Answer my question please.

Or explain to me why you are not.

[TraceyLyn11]

@Mala: Unsure. Based on yesterday, I think he's probable scum. He's in the same boat as Cheery and Riggs - I want to hear more from them before I decide. My current attention is on Vio and Thor (who is giving me bad gut-vibes - hence the questioning). You are my sole town read.

@Thor: Have I ever mentioned that your stubborness drives me insane? 'Cause it does.

@Vio: When are you going to make a case against someone that doesn't rely on associative tells?

@Mit: Mmmmhmmm.

[TraceyLyn11]

GNR is pretty obvious town for meta-reasons. I believe Mit is town as well, as is Mala. CD I'm actually quite unsure of, he's a bit of a wildcard. I have a gut town-read on him, but that's only because my other two scum reads are pretty strong at this point.

Uh. What meta would you have on Riggs?

@Vio: I thought scum slips made the game exciting, though.

[TraceyLyn11]

@Vio: If you say so.

Could you link the games that you read? All of them. Did you look up anyone else's meta?

[TraceyLyn11]

I keep telling myself to post here, but then I remember the several posts that I wanted to respond to, and I get demotivated.

I'll try and respond tomorrow.

[TraceyLyn11]

If anything, Thor should be put under more scrutiny,

because the only player he seems to have any respect for was Nacho

.

Does not having respect for other players make him scummy?

As for me "avoiding the thread", would I pull a PMyst like that, after attacking him so much for avoiding the thread throughout day 1? Don't be silly.

Well now that you've said this, yes, I think you might do that.

@Tracey: Who are your second and third scummiest reads, excluding me, and why?

Excluding you? I guess Thor and Riggs since the other two are my town reads. I already said why Thor is bothering me - gut. He just seems like he has less of a demanding presence this game, and it just doesn't feel like he's trying to be super pro-town like he usually does. His game just feels off compared to the last one we were in together. But then again, anytime I see him in a game, I'm often biased to read him as scum.. Which would explain my caution in going after him.

Riggs out of process of elimination as well as his lack of input, I guess. Not much more I could say - he hasn't provided much more.

@Mala: Even if I was avoiding the thread, how would that have been scummy?

Why didn't you pressure Mala into answering this?

I think I might be cool with a Violet wagon, but I don't want to rush like yesterday and cause another mislynch.

I have a fairly solid town read on Violet.

What happened to these?

And what happened to your Riggs scum read?

In fact, what are your reads on everyone?

ebwdp; had you looked at PM's meta yesterday?

OK, firstly, @Cheery: No, it doesn't make Thor obv-town. I already gave a counter to his "if PMyst is town, lynch Nacho" thing. If anything, Thor should be put under more scrutiny, because the only player he seems to have any respect for was Nacho.

Then put him under more scrutiny then, but it's made my read of him continue to be town. If you want to be different, then so be it.

Cheery's town.

I'm guessing you still think of me as town, judging by how you wrote that sentence after.

What was the point in saying this?

Alright, and while I'm doing that, why don't you describe in impossible detail why

all

of your scumreads are scum and

all

of your town reads are town, and exactly why (down to the last passing thought you could possibly have) you're

such good friends

with Thor even though you keep correcting his every case.

Uhm. Wat. I don't think that was an unreasonable question. Especially since I doubted you had actually read his meta like you said you did. Is there a reason that you linked them for Cheery but not me?

I also find it amusing that you keep saying that I'm buddying Thor. I've thought I've been pretty touchy and aggressive with him.. In fact, explain to me how we've been buddy-buddy. You seem to like bringing it up in

every single post

you make. Show me examples. You keep saying how we're asking each other questions and correcting each other's cases? I don't even know what you mean by the latter, but I don't exactly see how the former is scummy.

And yes. I looked at Thor's meta, that's the only other meta I've looked at. All I learned from Thor's is that he's hard to read if he's scum you're pretty much screwed. Which isn't entirely inaccurate now.

Why did you only look at Riggs' and Thor's meta?

There's town on every wagon. What do you think about the facts that Tracey and Thor are the main pushers of my wagon, and are buddy-buddy, and keep asking each other to close holes in each others arguments, and just so happen to be the two people I suspected when I first came into the game? You completely ignored that part.

You didn't suspect Thor, though. You suspected Klick. And once Thor came in, you had him as a null-town read and then a town read. Today is the first time you've shown any indication that you thought Thor was scum.

You also keep forgetting that Thor has voted you for night speculation. He has not clarified on anything more. So why are you freaking out about his vote?

It doesn't really matter anyway, my townread of you is probably going to stay unless you do something very derp.

Was there a reason in pointing this out?

Also, I might be cool with a Violet wagon, because I think he might be scum. I don't know whether or not he will be a mislynch, or even a lynch, because I don't know his alignment. Which is why I don't want to rush into voting him. Perhaps it would have been clearer if I said "potentially cause another mislynch".
If you want it more clearly: My read on Violet right now is null leaning scum.

What are your other reads? If you think he could be scum, WHY NOT SHEEP THE WAGON?

I don't think they've entirely thought this through, nor would they have. Thor still has no visible case against me. And Tracey, always one to back him up, pointed it out while avoiding any mention of suspicion. They're literally blowing me off, together, with no regard to how it looks, because that's how confident they are that they have the win in their hands.

Well a) I haven't mentioned suspicion of him because I'm unsure of whether he is Thor-scum or Thor-town yet. I get bad gut vibes, but he seems to be moving the game along in a more or less pro-town way, so. And I have read over his scum QTs, and from those I glean that he's a much better town player than a scum player. That being said, I don't think it's an issue letting my read on him simmer until I can get a clear one. And b) HOW HAVE I BLOWN YOU OFF. I respond to everything you say, I refute every case you make, I challenge a lot of the things you say. I am most certainly

not

blowing you off.

@Thor: No, you shouldn't. (Unless you're scum. Then you should totally vote me.) But I could see how I might have been an easy mislynch target today. I'm not entirely sure what you're asking there with the PMyst wagon. Could you clarify?

And I don't think I will sheep you at this time

, but at least now

I'm more convinced you are town.

Explain the bolded please?

If she

thinks she

knows something, she's extremely aggressive and confident about it. If she doesn't, she's more unsure and cautious. I

highly

doubt she'd be this aggressive as town.

Fixed that for you.

Also, aggressiveness has nothing to do with it - I'm aggressive as both alignments. Confidence though, that could probably be more alignment-indicative.

Tracey, most definitely. She's been

deceptive and manipulative

the entire game, and

her reads aren't genuine

. Among other things. My read on her isn't dependent on anything but her play this game.

Oh no you did not. DECEPTIVE? I've told you this before in real life. The thrill of being scum is winning

without

lying. You know I don't like lying, there's no point in using it as scum - especially when it's expected. Show me

one instance

of my being deceptive.

As for the manipulation factor, what have I manipulated? List three things. I dare you. Go.

How have my reads not been genuine? Again, show me examples.

[TraceyLyn11]

Plus other questions which makes me assume that he actually knows people's alignments.

Examples?

@Tracey: Way to misrepresent, yet again.

Explain to me exactly how I can misrepresent you... In a question... Good to know you're following in Vio's foot steps, though!

What makes it necessary for Thor to be scrutinised is that Nacho died and is the only player Thor seems to respect. If Thor were scum, he'd go for Nacho first.

Why do you assume that respect plays a large part in it? Let's say Thor

is

scum. Nacho's reads would have been off on him (he had him as a strong town read). Why wouldn't Thor want to keep him around? Especially since he had such a large voice?

My read on Violet changed because of the various posts between the two you list.

But what of his posting made you change your mind?

Riggs is still leaning scum, because of his lurkiness.

In other news, I'm starting to see Riggs the same way Tracey said she saw me earlier. That is, I think he's slightly scummy, but I'm starting to think it may be more just his posting style, than anything else.

So you don't think it's his posting style anymore?

And I already said why I was not sheeping the wagon.

And I don't think I will sheep you at this time, but at least now I'm more convinced you are town.

No you didn't.

An additional reason is that I think you might be scum, trying to get a second mislynch and put us in LyLo.

Anyway, had PMyst flipped scum, my main suspects now would have been Tracey and Mala. As he didn't, I don't know whom to suspect.

Uh?

I have town reads on Thor, Mala and Cheery. I think that the mafia team is in Tracey, Violet, Riggs.

Why is Mala town and I scum?

If you think Vio is likely to be scum, wouldn't it make sense to vote him rather than not voting (especially since he actually has a wagon behind him already)? Actually, you're the only one not voting. And you have three ideas for scum. Vote someone.

The latest bout with Thor, about being on the wagon and so on doesn't sit right with me.

Then why do you have Thor as your strongest town read...?

The core point is, I grabbed the biggest scum read I could on her and ran with it and she wuss slapped it pretty mightily.

I don't remember my attacking your read on me. And I just skimmed back and couldn't find it. Could you clarify?

[TraceyLyn11]

You misrepresented what I said about Thor. See the answer for the explanation.

Well, it doesn't matter what your response was. I still couldn't have misrepresented you by asking a non-loaded question.

And if Thor had been scum, he'd be more worried about Nacho than the rest of us. Nacho's reads could change; just because he thought Thor was town doesn't mean he wouldn't at some point read him as scum instead.

How did I know you'd say this? Yes, Nacho's reads could change. But, as Cheery pointed out, so could everyone else's. Not to mention it'd be unlikely for Thor to be a day two lynch even if Nacho was pushing hard for him. He's powerful in his own right.

As for Violet, he keeps repeating the same things, which don't seem to constitute a good enough case, to my mind, at least.

So he's scummy for repetition and bad case-making skills?

The reason I'm not sheeping came much earlier. Look further back in my ISO.

Ctrl+Fing "sheep" didn't find it, so I don't know what you're talking about. Care to quote it for me?

Voting can wait. It's not like I can only place my vote at specific time intervals. Ignoring the other questions, because they seem silly or unclear.

But why wait?

They aren't silly. Please answer them. If you find them unclear, ask:

Spoiler:

An additional reason is that I think you might be scum, trying to get a second mislynch and put us in LyLo.

Anyway, had PMyst flipped scum, my main suspects now would have been Tracey and Mala. As he didn't, I don't know whom to suspect.

Uh?

I have town reads on Thor, Mala and Cheery. I think that the mafia team is in Tracey, Violet, Riggs.

Why is Mala town and I scum?

If you think Vio is likely to be scum, wouldn't it make sense to vote him rather than not voting (especially since he actually has a wagon behind him already)?

The latest bout with Thor, about being on the wagon and so on doesn't sit right with me.

Then why do you have Thor as your strongest town read...?

p-edit: Yeah, definitely not voting now. It can wait.

Ten posts later...

Vote: Violet

I don't remember my attacking your read on me. And I just skimmed back and couldn't find it. Could you clarify?

That would be that entire conversation about you lying as town/scum.
Don't derp.

OH. That. I still don't remember attacking your read on me, but yeah, I think I know what you're referring to.

As scum I generally always use early kills to kill players I think are good *and* that will be hard to mislynch. I see it as reasonable to suggest I killed Nacho, I see it as odd to suggest I had more reason to kill Nacho than other players.

That work?

Unvote: Volet

These make me feel good.

@Thor: What's your read on Cheery?

@Vio: You have ignored several of my questions. Please go back and answer them.

[TraceyLyn11]

Other game came first today. If I have time tomorrow, I'll post in here.

[TraceyLyn11]

See, I was all ready to make a post and stuff. But then Vio made a friggin' wall. TWO friggin' walls.

I'll go ahead and start on it today, though. But I won't be done until tomorrow or something.

Homework and stuff.

And sleep.

And yeah.

[TraceyLyn11]

In fact.

I'll do the stuff before Vio's walls.

And I'll get to his walls tomorrow.

Or something.

Yeeeup.

[TraceyLyn11]

Never mind, I lied. Got side tracked by my other game ending. And food. Of course.

Tomorrow I will post something of substance!

Hopefully. >_>

[TraceyLyn11]

@Tracey: Of course it was loaded. Needing more scrutiny is not the same as being scummy. In addition, Thor having less respect for other players is not the issue, in and of itself; the point was that Nacho died. The lack of context is a misrepresentation.

That wasn't what you said in your original post. You said,

"If anything, Thor should be put under more scrutiny

because

the only player he seems to have any respect for was Nacho."

That being said, the question was not loaded. It was something you said (whether there was other context to it or not is irrelevant; you still said it). I was asking a question about it. A loaded question would imply that you would look scummy regardless of your answer to my question. That was not the case. I noticed something odd (not necessarily scummy) that you said and asked you about it. You have chosen to cry wolf and say I'm misrepresenting you with a

question

. Your response itself was adequate and made sense; I wasn't understanding the word "respect" as you were using it (though I still disagree with your actual conclusion). However, you appear to be just trying to make me look scummy rather than trying to decide what my motivations or intentions were behind asking that question. Do you think I was wrong for asking a question given the context of your post? Regardless of context, do you think it was a bad question? Was I insinuating you were scum by asking that question? Did I give you no outs to the question?

Violet is scummy because from

how you talk about him

, I think he'd be able to make more varied and better arguments.

Why aren't you paying attention to how he talks about me? Or is that aiding in your reasoning for thinking I'm scum?

Also, it wasn't just 10 posts later. It was also 17 hours later. Not to mention I'd been holding off on my vote for quite some time, by that point.

I didn't realize seventeen hours was a large amount of time on Mafiascum. And I didn't realize sixty posts (four real-life days) was a lot, either. You made a pretty big deal about not wanting to rush another mislynch, about wanting to hold off on voting, but I certainly wouldn't call four days or sixty posts plenty of time. Especially considering the PM wagon happened within the span of seven days (could be argued five) or 300ish posts. This is your trying to avoid rushing a lynch?

As for your other questions, fine, I will look at them. What do you mean by "Uh?"? How about an actual question, there?

You had said that Mala and I would have been your main suspects had PM flipped scum. Because he didn't, you didn't know who to suspect. Forty-five posts later you said you thought I was scum trying to get a mislynch. Why the change?

Mala is prob-town and you are prob-scum, because her actions are less scummy than yours. This should be crystal clear.

I asked this because you paired us together when you said if PM was scum, we'd be your top suspects. What had I done since the start of the day that was so much scummier than anything Mala had done (let's say from the start of the day)?

Thor is my strongest town read despite the bout, because the bout only made me read Violet as more scummy; not Thor. This should also be very clear.

I misunderstood.

I also am potentially liking Militos as scum, in which case Cheery would be obv. town.

Why does Mit being scum make Cheery town?

I'm starting to think maybe this;

Vote: Guy_Named_Riggs

Riggs' question was valid. Why say Mit was likely scum but vote Riggs?

I mostly just wish I could really grok the case Tracy with an 'e' has on her, because Tracy is basically obv. town and her suspicion comes from an honest place in that case, but I can't follow it. Feels maybe personal rather than logical, but needs more attention.

Did you actually read my case, or did you ignore/skim it like usual? It is kind of personal, though. I'm having a very difficult time discerning what he would and wouldn't do as either alignment without delving into confirmation bias/meta. I keep considering on switching to a new wagon (Mit), but then Vio keeps saying scummy stuff...

Will respond to Vio stuff after I get some food!

[TraceyLyn11]

Spoiler: A lot of words to Violet

Currently ingesting copious amounts of caffeine for enhanced neural function.

BAD VIO

YOU SAID

If you were asked to

triple

or

quadruple

-source every single statement you made, and by scum who doesn't have to do anything but ask a bunch of questions to look town, you'd be pretty frustrated too. Cheery's town.

No. I wouldn't. I'd be prepared to follow up with the claims I have made. When I think someone is misrepresenting me, I make sure everyone knows why (well, usually. Unless I'm trying to teach the person a lesson...). If I think someone is being deceptive or manipulative, I show them why. If I bring up meta, I link to it, or I am prepared to link to it. If you're going to make these general statements, you better be prepared to own up to them. You should expect such a thing in a game that values information so highly. You're whining about it is silly. Your bringing up that I'm scum is ridiculous as well. Whether you believe I'm scum or not, this information benefits everyone in the game, not just the person asking the questions or asking for the sources.

Why do you think it's pro-town to ignore those you think are scum and do whatever the players you believe to be are town say? Looking at you from townVio's point-of-view, shouldn't you not be 100% positive who is scum and town? Shouldn't you have at least some doubt on players' alignments?

Yeah, you've been touchy and aggressive to the point of looking like you two vehemently disagree which each other while actually agreeing and/or having a pleasant debate. Neither one of you is pushing a lynch against the other, not even close. It's like you don't even suspect each other

oh wait scum don't have to suspect each other because they're on the same damn team.

And you wanna look like you disagree. So you "argue".

You can't be serious right now. As Thor recently brought up, explain where he's thought I was scum. The last time I remember was way back when he first replaced in. As for me, I'm not only attacking Thor. I've been attacking several (if not every) player in this game. I have managed to stay friendly with them as well, though. Why is it only Thor and I that you jump onto? Because we're the loudest players in the game?

Post #346 After Thor pointed out that your statement made no sense, you quickly defended it. Not once did he say it was scummy, though it could be argued it was weakly implied. This certainly

looks

like you're arguing, until you realize that the dialogue is friendly, calm, and explanatory.

I wasn't defending anything? Did you even read his post that I was responding to? He had said it didn't make sense to him...

So I explained it to him

. SHOCKER, RIGHT? I MEAN WHAT KIND OF TOWN WOULD EXPLAIN SOMETHING TO SOMEONE?! WHAT KIND OF TRICKERY IS THIS?!

You made it out so that you can get away without giving an actual read, yet still distancing. Not one of those statements was based in fact, it was all meta BS and gut feelings. If I did that you'd be on my ass like it's nobody's business. And you'd ask for five sources.

Why do you think he was at a null read? Because there was nothing of fact behind it! I'm sorry if you want a clear town or scum read on him from me, but I was unable to provide that at the time. I had null reads on other players, too, though. Why didn't you attack those?

Here's the first post in the series, I refuse to post them all, just read the dialogue between you and Thor. Discussing metagame, strategy, generating a lot of you-Thor discussion that doesn't involve talking with anyone else, and quite frankly doesn't have enough game-specific information in it to include anyone else.

The sad part is, I'm not even misrepresenting you when I ask, "So we're scum for not including others?" Anyone else could have jumped in if they had liked. I was getting my read on Thor, he was getting his on me. It's not my fault if others didn't want to chime in. And to say they couldn't is a blatant lie. Any player can

always

come into any conversation. Ask questions, challenge their responses, make yourself a part of the conversation. Not that difficult.

I've recently read five of your past games (which I know are recent, I did the research this time) and though I wouldn't consider any of them excellent indicators of your playstyle, I did notice a general trend of you being heavily aggressive as scum (especially with your vote) and much more tentative as town. I understand 4/5_ths of them were newbie games, and I might be suffering from confirmation bias here, but that would suggest you're scum this game.

WAT

No.

I had

one

scum game that you could have read (the other was almost lost entirely to the crash). I was

far

from aggressive. I didn't even start asking questions until Nacho pointed it out to me. That aside, over half of that game I was unable to post due to computer and real-life issues.

I think you're mistaking aggressive for confident. I am far more aggressive as town - of that I am positive. Confidence, though, I'm sure I'm probably more confident as scum for obvious reasons. Do you think I'm confident this game?

Also, examining the PM lynch, three quick votes in a row is concerning, especially since Thor was voting right after you apparently

without expecting Nacho in the middle

(and within a timespan of nine minutes).

Now this

is

a lie. Thor clearly made reference to Nacho's hammer.

NICE TRY THOUGH

Bravo, you've turned my calling him out on having no reason for his vote into attacking me. That must have taken some effort. *applause*

Dodging questions isn't nice.

Uh, no? That's not what you were saying. You said Thor and I were the main pushers of your wagon. And I was saying that Thor could hardly be considered a main pusher when his entire case against you is...

...

Night speculation.

And since you also don't remember your response, it's the one right below my post, saying "you should do this more often" rather than showing any sign you actually read the damn thing.

Pretty sure praising you indicates I read it... And approved of it... But okay, believe I didn't read it if you'd prefer.

And that's one example. Here's another one, more recent, an entire post devoted to that cause and asking me to ruffle through more garbage to try and find the exact used tissues and toothpicks I found the first time.

I'm not going to apologize for asking you to provide... SHOCKING... Evidence that supports your general claims.

And while we're looking at recent posts let's look at your post before that which dismisses my argument and redirects attention towards me (which by the way, that

is

manipulative, I don't care how you want to frame it).

Yeah, that one was kind of bad.

You have both aggressiveness and confidence. And you really aren't aggressive as town, learn your own meta

it could one day save your life

.

Do I sit back and let people find information for me (well, outside of memory reasons)? Do I shy away from people thinking I'm scum? Am I afraid of experienced players? Do I back down from an argument because it's getting "intense"? No. I'm the opposite of all of that. I know my town meta well. I've had nine games to get acquainted with and used to it.

That post. I remember that conversation, you said the thrill of being scum was turning everyone against each other

I don't have to lie to turn people against each other. But either way, no, that's not what I said.

and you're inevitably going to lie as scum, it's impossible not to. You can't call me scum while knowing I'm town and say that's not a lie or being deceptive.

Thank you Captain Obvious.

Ok, this is getting ridiculous to the point where I think you're trying to waste all my time so the only thing I can do is re-read for my responses to you, effectively taking me out of the game. You can use seven words to make me do half an hour's work, and you do that three times a post. And that's just responding to

you

.

Maybe you shouldn't make claims that you aren't willing to back up. I'm not taking you out of the game if we're still very clearly talking about your scum read on me and the reasoning for such a read.

Impossible. There is literally no concrete way to show that a read is genuine or not - you could just be crazy like me, or you could have legitimately slipped up, or you could be fabricating things in your mind because your brain can't process all of the information you have to take into account, and that all happens to everyone. This is further evidence that you just want to keep me busy - you can't possibly expect me to find a source for something that isn't ever conclusively provable.

Thanks again, Captain Obvious. You can pretty easily show us where

you

believe I wasn't being genuine, though.

This is one of the things I forgot to list in my response to you. So you understand he has a baseless vote, you understand he's making a terrible argument, and what you respond with is "your case is looking a little weak, brah".

I've learned thinking people are scum for theory-based reasonings are bad - which is why I try to avoid it. I questioned Thor more than say, Mala, because knowing Thor, I find it unlikely that he places a lot of faith in night kill analysis. Mala, however, does - so it'd be pointless to argue it with her.

You have no qualms about people mindlessly sheeping you unless it's Thor - then you make him come up with reasons so that he looks better.

Well, this isn't true. I said in the post that I was getting frustrated by

everyone's

going along with a scum read against you based on night kill analysis. Not just Thor.

You're saying you could see that relationship as a bus?

Have they been very opposed to each other...? Mit's never voted Cheery, and Cheery's only voted Mit once. Within the last two hundred (yeahyeahyeah) posts, Cheery called Mit town. Explain to me what I'm obviously not seeing, please.

As far as your Violet case goes - that link isn't to a case, that link is to evidence.

Did you read it, though?

[TraceyLyn11]

And given the previous misreps you made of me in this game (and there were several of those)

Show me.

I am paying attention to what Violet says about you. Why would you think I wasn't?

Because you haven't made any reference to it in a case against me. Or any reference to it in general.

Maybe it's not long to you, but it seemed long to me. Is that a problem?

Yeah. You thought the PM lynch was fast. You want to avoid contributing to another quicklynch. You refuse to vote because of this. And then you vote after it's been a significantly shorter amount of time as compared to the PM wagon. It doesn't make sense.

Your scumminess is not contingent upon PMyst's own; it stands proudly on its own.

You pretty clearly said that Mala and I would be your main suspects, but "I don't know whom to suspect". You did not have me as a scum read at that time (or at least not a significant one). But then it suddenly came up forty-five posts later that I was. I want to know what I had done within that time span that made me scummy.

Also, stop walling.

Sorry buddy.

[TraceyLyn11]

Ho ho ho.

IT'S TOO EARLY FOR SANTA

[TraceyLyn11]

VOTE: Mit

[TraceyLyn11]

Seriously? Just ISO me and search for "misrep". You'll find them all.

I did. There wasn't many. I had countered several of them.

So, why are you placing me in L-1 without announcing it? After making such a big deal of this in 444, that's a bit hypocritical.

Because I forgot it was four votes to lynch.

Mit's at L-1 guys.

Also, care to back that vote with an actual case?

No, not really.

[TraceyLyn11]

-prod dodge-

Lots of tests this week. Next week should calm down more.

[TraceyLyn11]

Okay.

I guess I should probably put some effort into this game now.

@Thor: I don't do TL;DR versions because they're crappy and don't get the point across. But for

you

:

The reason I asked this question:

Spoiler:

Did you read through and then quote the information you were going to use in your initial catch-up post, or did you come back to it after you had completed reading over the game?

Honestly I'm not sure why it matters so much to you, but I quoted things of particular interest while I was reading, and then commented on them accordingly after I had read to near-completion.

Was because in his first and second catch up posts, he quotes only my posts. This is interesting because he says he quoted as he went along. With that being said, it looks as though he had it planned ahead of time that he was going to try and take me out early or tunnel me early. I later asked this question:

Spoiler:

What are your thoughts on night kill analysis day one?

Night two I mean. Pretend the flip was a vanilla townie.

It depends heavily on the situation, but I find most NK analysies to be nigh-worthless. It's all WIFOM. For instance, I almost always kill Nacho as scum because he's usually a strong player, but I doubt I would this game (assuming he wouldn't be my partner) because he seems distant and disinterested and isn't exactly convincing anyone of anything. But even if you knew that about me, it would still be worthless to try and analyze it that way because I know that's what I do so I can change it at will, and it's situational. And that's just me - depending on who my partner would be in that situation they may or may not agree with my meta-views. The combined chemistry is something you can't even begin to account for due to the sheer numbers of possible combinations and unpredictable nature (9x8=72 possible combos, plus synergistic chemistry between the two people, plus a hidden conversation we have no access to).

Scum have their own reasons for doing things that are so far removed from the information I have as town that guessing is like shooting a target blindfolded with an ill-maintained 16th century pistol. It'll probably just shoot blow up in your face.

Was to counter his statement that the policy lynch talk was an important discussion for the town. Like night kill analysis, it's highly controversial, and it's very WIFOMy whether it is a good thing to do or not. He literally said,

"Discussion provides information, and it was an important discussion to have."

He clearly disagrees with night kill analysis. One (myself, for instance) could counter that if he thinks policy lynch discussion is valuable, then by the same vein of "discussion provides information", night kill analysis is just as valuable for the town because it provides discussion and information. I found it very off that he would attack me for not wanting to continue a discussion that I clearly thought hindered the town - especially when he shared the same sentiments about it as I and yet could not comprehend why I would want the discussion to stop. It felt much to white-knighty of him (in regards to Mala).

Read that.

And then the actual ISO part in TL;DR format: He's looking way too hard for teams, he ignores a lot of my questions to him, he tied himself to Mala a lot early game (and has stopped since I made that case against him besides the one or two times he asserted she and Mit were his strongest town reads) and his reads on her in general have been awkward or weird the whole game, his points against Klick were wrong, his focus during this game has been almost entirely on me (and now you), and then this:

I have noticed that he has repeatedly commented on my lack of cases. I have repeatedly responded that I only make cases to derail wagons I disapprove of, when we're near deadline, or if someone asks me to. He seems very "bothered" that I have not made any cases, yet, even though I've stated it as one of my reasons for making cases (specifically did so to see if he would ask me), he has not asked me to make a case. I've told him several times in real life how even if people disagree with my cases or if they think they're bad, I'm often seen as town after I make them because they're so thought out and... Long. That he hasn't asked me to make them gives me the feeling that he could be afraid of people seeing me as more townish but slightly distressed with the fact that my not making cases is "scummy" - something he could push as a reason for my being scum.

Which is followed by him completely ignoring my case against him.

I've realized, though, that I think I want Mit dead more than Vio. I'm happy with either, but I've felt uneasy about Mit the entire game, and I've payed close attention to his interactions with people and the game. It just doesn't read as town at all. Vio on the other hand, I could put some of it off as his personality or us clashing.

I can see Vio possibly being town. I don't see the same with Mit.

Therefore, I want Mit dead right now.

I don't think I like the wagon on Riggs.

If I missed any questions people want me to respond to, ask 'em again.

[TraceyLyn11]

I feel silly asking this, but why not? Sure, Mit's on it, but the other two people are your BFF and someone you explicitly stated was town.

Is there anything in particular you dislike about the riggs wagon?

I don't like the Riggs wagon because I don't have strong reason to believe Riggs is scum. He has a weird playstyle, but that's all I'm seeing it as currently. I'm not seeing the scum motive behind [most of] his posts. Who is on the wagon has nothing to do with it. However, I don't like how ready people are to jump on the wagon.

Would you like me to vote myself or were you just hoping for a pat on the back? I'd personally love a bouquet of

flowers

and someone to tell me everything's ok.

Ha.

Just because a case is made about you does not mean you cannot respond to it. Isn't the whole point

not

to look like scum? So wouldn't it be good to point out why I'm wrong? More than that, though, it's just bothersome that you would complain so much about my lack of a case against you... But once one is presented, you don't even acknowledge its existence.

[TraceyLyn11]

(or why he edited the quote to remove you talking about Klick's play in the second line and making it as if you were talking about Thor's playstyle there (which while it is generally true for Thor, I read that in the actual post as relating to Klick's playstyle)

Darn it, Cheery! I was going to point this out, but I totally forgot.

The votes onto the wagons you yourself have been supporting, I feel were made with about the same level of ease though.

Well maybe... But I thought they were scum!

If anyone cared, yes.

Considering that nobody does, and the you vs. me debate is pretty much a private affair (nobody outside commenting except to say it looked like town v town), I don't think it's necessary. Besides that, it takes up an extraordinary amount of time, and when it walls up it stagnates discussion for everyone else. If you

really

think I'm scum and

really

want me lynched, it's your responsibility to convince

everyone else

. I'm not about to vote myself, I know what my role PM said, and so you don't need to repeatedly tell me that I'm wrong about what my alignment is.

In summary:

• It takes time and effort
  
• Nobody else is involved in the debates
  
• I know I'm town
  
• It's fruitless to continue

I know

you

care and

you

want me to respond, but you keep repeating the same tired points and your mind is set on me being scum. So it's not worth it.

I don't want you to respond. Not anymore. I want to know why you didn't respond in the first place, when it was relevant. Also notice that I'm not pushing your lynch anymore.

[TraceyLyn11]

I already answered that. It stopped being relevant long before we stopped walling.

So my reads are irrelevant...?

Okay.

[TraceyLyn11]

I woke up really late today, so I couldn't make the post I was hoping to make before I left. Considering Riggs has been hammered I'll just quickly give out reads:

Thor: Prob-town.
Violet: Not sure.
Mit: Scum.
Cheery: Towntowntown. If I'm dead tomorrow and anyone lynches him, I will be pissed.
Mala: Not sure.

[TraceyLyn11]

Mass claim. Mit first. Go, go, go.

[TraceyLyn11]

Oh. Did you?

god damn it

[TraceyLyn11]

THAT WAS WITHIN THE LAST PAGE

ugh

I CALL REDO

[TraceyLyn11]

Claim: VT

I'll do what Tracy with an 'e' should have.

Go - Violet.

Thank you. <3

Vanilla town, yo.

Welp.

Mala, then?

[TraceyLyn11]

*Checks role PM*

Yep. Still vanilla town.

Thor, are you the jailkeeper trying to be sneaky again?

[TraceyLyn11]

I'm still pretty darn certain

Tracy with an 'e'

Thor is town.
i want to lynch someone in the Violet/Mala/Mili combo.
I'll be back later after doing a bit of looking to see if I can rule out any pairs there.

[TraceyLyn11]

Also, we have a Doctor who lied and doesn't want to claim yet, or the mafia team is incompetent.

Discuss.

Or you're incompetent...

More later.

[TraceyLyn11]

Oh, I'm sorry I struck a nerve. Maybe next time I'll be more sensitive to scum-rights issues.

Nice come-back.

[TraceyLyn11]

Everyone's top scum read, now, go, go, go!

Treat it like massclaim. No side-banter, and we'll popcorn it.

Yes. This does have a significant purpose behind it.

Thor, you first.

[TraceyLyn11]

Everyone's top scum read, now, go, go, go!

Treat it like massclaim. No side-banter, and we'll popcorn it.

Yes. This does have a significant purpose behind it.

Thor, you first.

If you are unsure, just pick one. Don't waste time in second guessing it. First person who comes to mind when you think scum, say it. I don't want any explanations for why they are scum until after.

[TraceyLyn11]

Also, Vio, what was your read of Cheery? Town or scum? Your most recent read on him was given ten pages back, so I'd like an updated read if you would be so kind.

[TraceyLyn11]

Also, Vio, what was your read of Cheery? Town or scum? Your most recent read on him was given ten pages back, so I'd like an updated read if you would be so kind.

You too, Mala.

[TraceyLyn11]

<3

[TraceyLyn11]

Actually, I changed my mind. Everyone do it how Thor did it. Most scummiest to least.

[TraceyLyn11]

You couldn't have listed your reads before you left, why?

[TraceyLyn11]

Popcorn it.

[TraceyLyn11]

Ugh. Was hoping you wouldn't pick me.

Mit, Vio, Mala, Thor.

These are subject to change based on the results of this little massreads thing, but.

Mala, go.

[TraceyLyn11]

MIT. YOU HAVE SOME 'SPLAINING TO DO.

Your reads. Was that from Vioscum to Thortown or Viotown to Thorscum?

[TraceyLyn11]

I double read what you said. Just answer my questions. Even if you don't think it makes sense or it's already been said. I'm dumb, 'member?

[TraceyLyn11]

Vio, why did you not add Mala to your list?

[TraceyLyn11]

Vio, why did you not add Mala to your list?

That's not important right now.

It kind of is.

[TraceyLyn11]

It's really not.

Please tell.

You owe me for that WAR you started.

[TraceyLyn11]

I don't owe you anything. You've already won the game, the least I can do is be smug about my reads.

Ugh. Fine.

I'll pretend she's your strongest town read.

[TraceyLyn11]

Thor: Vio, Mala, Xil, Tracey
Vio: Thor, Tracey, Mit, ?Mala?
Tracey: Mit, Vio, Mala, Thor
Mala: Mit, Violet, Thor, Tracey
Mit: Vio, Tracey, Mala, Thor

Not possible:
Thor/Vio
Vio/Thor
Tracey/Mit
Mala/Mit
Mit/Vio

Possibilities:
Thor: Mala, Mit, Tracey
Vio: Tracey, Mala
Tracey: Vio, Mala, Thor
Mala: Vio, Thor, Tracey
Mit: Thor

Removing me from the possibility:
Thor: Mala, Mit
Vio: Mala
Mala: Vio, Thor
Mit: Thor

Interesting. As you can see, I took everyone's top scum read and ruled them out. It's pretty unlikely a scumbuddy would have their partner as a top scum read in five player LyLo.

Now to rule out possibilities that I believe unlikely:
Thor: Mala, Mit
Mala: Thor
Mit: Thor

Well. I think I found scum. I don't believe Violet would draw so much attention to his scumbuddy, Mala. Therefore it leaves Thor in every possibility as one of the scum.

Thoughts before I vote?

---

My reasoning for this. I was confused about Mit. Everyone was calling him scum. It didn't make sense for everyone to have him as a top scumread in LyLo unless he was town because, logically, his partner would not put him in such a position. Mit's post #979 really made me consider this because he was right. No one was jumping on it.

I asked Thor to claim first because he has been giving me the most pause lately. I just have an off feeling about him. The above shows my suspicions were seemingly correct. I then popcorned to Mala because I was also worried a lot about her. I cared least about Mit's response. Violet, Thor, and Mala all came in attacking Mit. Looking at their reads, only one of them actually had him as a top scum read. It was weird. So voila!

Mit, what happened to this?