VARSOON VARIETY HOUR : GAME SCRAPPED

[OnTheMark]

I agree there isn’t.

However most of the content Skybird posted, especially early game targets Maid Cafe, same with Iconeum.

Why is Iconeum sticking out and not Skybird?

And how Iconeum did it makes them an unlikely scumpairing. You’re straw manning the point.

[OnTheMark]

Right now, I feel like either Maid Cafe or OTM is scum, I'm not sure which one though leaning towards Maid Cafe. I didn't like 53 and 88 from them.

Tibor and Lumia ping town to me. That is a gut read.

Pre-edit: Thanks Phosphophyllite

If OTM is town (and that's quite possible) this flips scum all the time and I'll prob want to vote here

Skybird, Creature, RR, Shinding D townread.

Maid Café should respond to 237. I love how she bashes OTM for not responding, yet doesn't answer herself.

Maid scumreading right now. Maybe lyncher - lynchee with OTM. That would be hilarious

Why do you townread Skybird I assume it's for the post above because the other 3 posts are just greetings and considering skybird has prob the worst post in the game I'm interested to see your answer.
~Maki

Interesting.

You push Maid Cafe, even switch your vote to them, despite the fact Iconeum pushed Maid Cafe earlier in an unprovoked way. Usually means Iconeum isn’t scum with Maid Cafe. Furthermore it seems like you’re actively ignoring the currents of the person you are voting why?

When Skybird has had major pushes of your scumread they are unremarkable?

This is to Kiana not Titus.

What makes you think that I'd remember posts from 30 pages ago?

Because you’re playing a conversationalist style.

Either you’re conversing or trying to with everyone to read them

Or you’re playing a reactionary style which can be rather scummy

Or C describe your playstyle.

I don’t expect you to remember every post but I do expect you to see if a wagon is viable and who potential buddies are before pushing it and that would include looking back.

Pedit All I want is a why Skybird is not scummy.

I am not forcing opinions all I want is a clarification of why and it seems like you continually dodge the question.

[OnTheMark]

I agree there isn’t.

However most of the content Skybird posted, especially early game targets Maid Cafe, same with Iconeum.

Why is Iconeum sticking out and not Skybird?

And how Iconeum did it makes them an unlikely scumpairing. You’re straw manning the point.

Iconeum is scummy. Skybird is not. That's all I have to say on the matter. You're beginning to force your opinions upon me and I don't like that. Please change the topic?

Scummy doesn’t always mean scum.

And scummy doesn’t mean likely partners.

At least one of Iconeum and Maid Cafe are town. I don’t see them in a team and I wanna go after the scummiest players.

[OnTheMark]

So Kiana, Mark how are your mornings going?

Getting ready for work. Can’t say I am too shabby. Just an ordinary morning. Won’t be posting too much today.

[OnTheMark]

If you don’t have a read on how things would shake or why players are Townie or scummy or any sort of reasons I am not following you off of my top scum pick.

[OnTheMark]

Right now, I feel like either Maid Cafe or OTM is scum, I'm not sure which one though leaning towards Maid Cafe. I didn't like 53 and 88 from them.

Tibor and Lumia ping town to me. That is a gut read.

Pre-edit: Thanks Phosphophyllite

This post tries to continue the Beeboy+Me whatever the fuck that was. Attempts to be divisive without too much of a commitment. They aren’t sure yet they are enough to try to bring others into it. Instead of actively asking a sorting question to figure it out they push. Means if Sky is scum Maid Cafe is lock town.

[OnTheMark]

Skybird, Creature, RR, Shinding D townread.

Maid Café should respond to 237. I love how she bashes OTM for not responding, yet doesn't answer herself.

Maid scumreading right now. Maybe lyncher - lynchee with OTM. That would be hilarious

Now Iconeum pushes on with absolute bullshit.

Lyncher/ Lynchee is something Varsoon would never do. It’s more of a push on Maid Ico never follows through on. Again trying to stoke the fires but this is commital so it isn’t nearly as bad as Skybird.

[OnTheMark]

quick reminder to everyone that i need to be 2nd largest wagon each day to be useful :/

vote: Venmar

This post bugs me. Why do you think you have to use a spell/ability to be useful?

Skybird also bugs me because they call out Venmar for thinking they have to have an ability to be useful but are wholly inconsistent when Maid Cafe does antitoen bullshit that we’re still not clear on what for mana.

This means if Skybird is scum Ico is town and Maid might be scum.

[OnTheMark]

OtM how do you justify Maid Cafe writing a paragraph to justify

locktowning

a player who said a grand total of "hi" in a 46-page thread only after being called out on its absurdity?

Irrelevant.

I have lockscummed a player for a word on page one and have been right.

[OnTheMark]

quick reminder to everyone that i need to be 2nd largest wagon each day to be useful :/

vote: Venmar

This post bugs me. Why do you think you have to use a spell/ability to be useful?

Skybird also bugs me because they call out Venmar for thinking they have to have an ability to be useful but are wholly inconsistent when Maid Cafe does antitoen bullshit that we’re still not clear on what for mana.

This means if Skybird is scum Ico is town and Maid might be scum.

And of course Venmar would be town in that case.

[OnTheMark]

i'm not talking about stealing mana, i'm talking about informing scum nightkills, and scum power use.

and how Varsoon hates massclaims, explicitly warned us against flavour claims, etc.

maybe it means nothing. but i can guarantee Varsoon did not design this game so that it's a good idea for everyone to claim and coordinate mana stacking.

and this hasn't even touched on the fact i'm not townreading you, so why should i be giving you mana? :<

I dunno people said this about mass claiming not breaking both GiF magical girl games and both got broken via mass claim if people went for it.

I think generally its more pro-town if we all just openly try and get mana. If there are conflicting ways to generate it then we lose maybe 3 people casting spells. Vs me and Maki trying to play like a jester get voted, cross vote under a specific condition then hope that we can walk it off.

Like being hidden about mana generation I think hurts town, I think the game was made so most of us can generate mana, Varsoon wouldn't design cards people can't realistically use and by hiding how i get mana me and maki just get taken off our cards 9/10 times.
Lot's of people can still hiddenly generate mana and don't need to claim conditions.

Scum knowing I always act tonight is strictly better than me not acting.

~B

Others have already reasponded to this but I don't think it's a good thing to let scum know how you generate mana. It makes it easier for them to mess things up for town.

Right now, I feel like either Maid Cafe or OTM is scum, I'm not sure which one though leaning towards Maid Cafe. I didn't like 53 and 88 from them.

Tibor and Lumia ping town to me. That is a gut read.

Pre-edit: Thanks Phosphophyllite

Why is it one or the other? Why can't both be town?
~Lumia

They both might be. The whole argument just felt like MC was being contrary instead of two town talking past each other. (Not sure if contrary is the right word but I'm struggling to come up with a better one at the moment and without re-reading the whole argument.)

historically, a scum lynch on day 1 is actually worse for town. sometimes, it can work out wonderfully despite that. but for the most part, i'd call it bad. Maki knows what i mean.

therefore, seeing as my role powers up on town deaths, and a day 1 scum lynch is bad for town, i propose we collectively agree to lynch town. i know it sounds silly, but it makes sense. i hate seeing town do well on the first day only to tank every other.

VOTE: Mark

I 've heard something like this before but I really don't like the idea of trying to lynch town. I get scrum vibes from this post.

Why? Do you really think mafia are going to campaign for a town lynch? I recall Chara being pretty nutty as scum (or it could be Almost) but she's not nuts.
~Lumia

To propose we purposely try to lynch town is pretty scummy. If she can get a majority of players to agree then we lose a town player. Of course Chara made it sound like a joke in post 556. What better way to play off a scum gambit than to say it was a joke?

Now Skybird makes a push on Chara who is obvTown so the push will go nowhere.

It’s just noise.

I haven’t seen a single positive contribution from the slot.

[OnTheMark]

OtM how do you justify Maid Cafe writing a paragraph to justify

locktowning

a player who said a grand total of "hi" in a 46-page thread only after being called out on its absurdity?

Irrelevant.

I have lockscummed a player for a word on page one and have been right.

Correlation does not imply causation. It's more likely you've just been lucky. How many times have you been wrong? Have you kept track? I bet you didn't.

Oh I have been wrong a lot of times. Each time I get better. *tilted mouth* However that is irrelevant.

You’re asking if something

could

happen by asking me to justify locktowning someone.

They could be masons could be a genuine read could be a gut read could be a secret cop check could be they did astrology. The point is I can see it.

[OnTheMark]

Oh yay!

Titus says to push something and I do.

Then I get called derp tunneling for pushing something and explaining my read as asked and assaults on my skill.

Please tell me to go write “OTM is a good player” then say I am a horrible player for writing it.

I don’t have time for this shit I am going to work.

Let me know when I am allowed to push someone.

[OnTheMark]

OtM how do you justify Maid Cafe writing a paragraph to justify

locktowning

a player who said a grand total of "hi" in a 46-page thread only after being called out on its absurdity?

Irrelevant.

I have lockscummed a player for a word on page one and have been right.

I don't think you answered the real thrust of the question. Though the bolding was on locktowning, the question was about the, arguably, overexplanation on the read that only came after they were informed that the read was something others found suspect.

-Cerb

And I am saying that people do things that don’t make sense on the surface eg masonry or cop check or just being themselves or meta or whatever. The most likely thing is scum wouldn’t be that blatant. As town I deal with most likely.

[OnTheMark]

Oh yay!

Titus says to push something and I do.

Then I get called derp tunneling for pushing something and explaining my read as asked and assaults on my skill.

Please tell me to go write “OTM is a good player” then say I am a horrible player for writing it.

I don’t have time for this shit I am going to work.

Let me know when I am allowed to push someone.

It is Kiana talking right now.

I am pointing out the hypocrisy of the slot in general.

Almost to the point of rescinding town block status.

[OnTheMark]

Because I wouldn’t get what I need to read you Cerb.

I need Drixx to post.

I still lean scum on you but it was a fruitless endeavor that would be spam.

[OnTheMark]

I also don't have much of an opinion on Skybird, and always see fluff cases spring up on them D1(like, every single game), so I haven't actually paid much attention to OTM's actual reasons for being suspicious of Skybird(also partially because it's somewhat related to Iconeum, another slot I don't have much to say about).

-Cerb

Your non defense defense is noted.

And I have defended Skybird D1 in Mass effect when it happened.

And I was right.

[OnTheMark]

I also don't have much of an opinion on Skybird, and always see fluff cases spring up on them D1(like, every single game), so I haven't actually paid much attention to OTM's actual reasons for being suspicious of Skybird(also partially because it's somewhat related to Iconeum, another slot I don't have much to say about).

-Cerb

Your non defense defense is noted.

And I have defended Skybird D1 in Mass effect when it happened.

And I was right.

Past games that I have not personally been a part of (which means, all meta references except my completed games here, including "Mass Effect") are non-evidence to me and hold no sway.

Then how many times I was wrong should also hold no sway yet you brought that up no problem.

[OnTheMark]

I also don't have much of an opinion on Skybird, and always see fluff cases spring up on them D1(like, every single game), so I haven't actually paid much attention to OTM's actual reasons for being suspicious of Skybird(also partially because it's somewhat related to Iconeum, another slot I don't have much to say about).

-Cerb

Your non defense defense is noted.

And I have defended Skybird D1 in Mass effect when it happened.

And I was right.

Past games that I have not personally been a part of (which means, all meta references except my completed games here, including "Mass Effect") are non-evidence to me and hold no sway.

Pfft. Do you deny that Skybird always attracts early game wagons? And that statistically, those wagons are usually on town!skybird?

-Cerb

The last sentence is the same odds as everyone else and Cerb I am disappointed.

Gambler’s fallacy from you?

[OnTheMark]

I have a hunch the team is Sky, Bryona, RR and munna

Need time to type up my Sky case and I am at work but that’s my hunch.

[OnTheMark]

We should play fun games like.

Cop, Vig, Doc where we give 3 names for each catrgory.

~B

Tried that.

Byrona doesn’t play

For liking puppies and giving me one supposedly they don’t play with them.

[OnTheMark]

VOTE: Iconeum

VOTE: Iconeum

Sure. I would have preferred you stayed on T and L a bit longer for VCA but this works well for pressure.

As for the other question, reask towards the end of d1. My hydra partner and I both think the game is moving too slow. I'd still use the same standards though atm.

Closest thing, I got when I tried. Titus just isn’t giving a gamestate til it suits her and she can agree with the majority of things that are wrong.

[OnTheMark]

Cerb, the game is like fuck, marry, kill, except it's with PR actions. and a way to discuss reads

I'd play fuck, marry, kill but it probably breaks a few site rules.

~B

I think only the kill does

I know a couple of people who I’d love to flirt with but I hold back.

[OnTheMark]

also, i am very, very confident in RR town. perhaps the reason is bad, but there you go!
and i will maintain that i read them correctly in Protomen, because i figured their wincon was town and

also

that they were lying. i just misinterpreted the setup. :>

This is part of why I don’t push RR. I disagree with you having seen Cerberus work in FFT but I am working in those parameters. If you genuinely said Bryona is town and meant it I wouldn’t push there either and just do Sky or munna.

[OnTheMark]

Cerb, the game is like fuck, marry, kill, except it's with PR actions. and a way to discuss reads

I'd play fuck, marry, kill but it probably breaks a few site rules.

~B

I think only the kill does

I know a couple of people who I’d love to flirt with but I hold back.

This was a joke btw I hate unwanted flirting in mafia games.

[OnTheMark]

I would cop Bryona or RR
Doc Chara
Vig holster shot

[OnTheMark]

pedit: Agreed with Chara. I want OTM to connect with people. The current game state has them standing a bit outside of the consensus' forming, which sucks for everyone because OTM can be really friggin helpful.

Cerb, the game is like fuck, marry, kill, except it's with PR actions. and a way to discuss reads

i'm not sure saying who is obvtown is useful when they're not in danger of being lynched, though.

as for this, yes. Mark's great. not my style at all, but saying they're derptunneling or that they've gone off the deep end just seems unfair when they haven't done anything of the sort.

Ah. Hmm. That makes more sense.

-Cerb

@Titus: I wasn't in Civ. And I was scum in SU2, therefore this can't be it redux. :-/

I would cop Bryona or RR
Doc Chara
Vig holster shot

The whole point is you cannot holster.

Fine. Then moderator random or tbd.

[OnTheMark]

Put Skybird there if for some reason they don’t eat rope.

[OnTheMark]

Right now, I feel like either Maid Cafe or OTM is scum, I'm not sure which one though leaning towards Maid Cafe. I didn't like 53 and 88 from them.

Tibor and Lumia ping town to me. That is a gut read.

Pre-edit: Thanks Phosphophyllite

This post tries to continue the Beeboy+Me whatever the fuck that was. Attempts to be divisive without too much of a commitment. They aren’t sure yet they are enough to try to bring others into it. Instead of actively asking a sorting question to figure it out they push. Means if Sky is scum Maid Cafe is lock town.

And what if I'm town? Then will you see MC is scum?

I am on record with what I would do when people are mislynched in this game.

[OnTheMark]

Right now, I feel like either Maid Cafe or OTM is scum, I'm not sure which one though leaning towards Maid Cafe. I didn't like 53 and 88 from them.

Tibor and Lumia ping town to me. That is a gut read.

Pre-edit: Thanks Phosphophyllite

This post tries to continue the Beeboy+Me whatever the fuck that was. Attempts to be divisive without too much of a commitment. They aren’t sure yet they are enough to try to bring others into it. Instead of actively asking a sorting question to figure it out they push. Means if Sky is scum Maid Cafe is lock town.

And what if I'm town? Then will you see MC is scum?

Why would MC scum have a mana requiremebt that needs town? Why wouldn't scum just tunnel each other and devolve for distance?

~Titus

Valid point. Not super strong, but worth keeping in mind.

-Cerb

It actually isn’t. It’s hyperbole and appeal to emotion. Furthermore roles were created prerand. So the whole why would MC scum have a mana requirement ... is flawed at its core.

Cmon Cerb and Titus you’re better than this.

[OnTheMark]

Micc is a good wagon if Sky doesn’t take off. Case coming late tonight hopefully

[OnTheMark]

Micc is a good wagon if Sky doesn’t take off. Case coming late tonight hopefully

Uhh they weren't in your scum pairings? You seem rather unfocused. Can you reboot and return when you can post thoughts on each player succinctly without associations?

~Titus

Micc is independently scummy.

I am doing both.

There is no “return”.

Skybird happens to fit both.

[OnTheMark]

Ok, A50 is town, Chara is town, Cerb hydra is town.

After some clarification I think it's a good idea for me to claim. My role is a compulsory lie-detector on any statement that the mod can give an objective "true" or "false" over, however it cannot be about alignment. It is public in nature (triggered by quoting something and bolding to the mod).

I haven't seen anything particularly lie-detect worthy yet so I figured I'd crowdsource some suggestions. I get one shot per day.

Yay! More naked reads lists /s

[OnTheMark]

If anyone wants to be a dear tho and give me a brief summary of important things I should know then that would be nice :3

I will be a dude for ya late tonight!

[OnTheMark]

And tell me your read on Dunnstral.

Dafuq??? Dunn had only posted 2 damn letters by that point! How does anyone get a read from a "hi"?? Unless you think him not typing "Hi" or using a fullstop/exclamation is AI!!!

@OTM:

Would it be too much to ask if I requested you use the post tags rather than quoting the whole post? Thank you.

@OTM, Is a readwall without associative reads too much to ask?

I only have access to mobile at work After work to both yes.

However to keep the thread moving and answer questions I have to use my phone. If you only want me posting like twice a day with three posts I can do that.

[OnTheMark]

If anyone wants to be a dear tho and give me a brief summary of important things I should know then that would be nice :3

I will be a dude for ya late tonight!

ty btw :3

Mark I hate to be that girl but don't we have a social engagement tonight?

yeah it's me, chara, maid cafe, otm, and maybe a50. im accepting further applications

pedit: re creature

Lol that’s why late tonight After you like leave and things.

Venmar I waffle on Maid but not enough to like lynch them today.

[OnTheMark]

I read Taly's ISO.
I am rather conflicted on to either A. Snap or B. Be Thankful.
I will verify what he claimed though

Taly claimed some role copy stuffs.

[OnTheMark]

Imagine if a player claimed they get mana from lynching an IC?

I think this example is more relevant to Chara now than Venmar. Why do you have a problem with Venmar advocating a wagon on himself and not with Chara advocating a town lynch (at the very least you're not showing the same emotions about the two).

To reiterate: I am 100% Chara is Town by now (I know them well enough to be this confident in my read), and I have a Scum lean on Venmar. My problem is not with your feelings about the players but with your reaction to the situations.

@A50: Please confirm your lost vote by voting for someone! Thanks!

Too late now

Oh, also: A50, when was your vote stolen? Midday, at day start? Were you told anything about the source of the vote steal? Like if it was a card used by someone?

The PM was received about 160 minutes before I made that post.

Nothing about the source or method. It just says I can still vote using creatures if I had any.

I was notified it was returned just over 29 hours later, if that helps.

Because Chara was being sarcastic and joking and Venmar wasn’t.
I never thought it was actually serious.

If I had thought it was serious or the movement gained traction it woulda been a while mother matter.

[OnTheMark]

I have an odd feeling you guys wont let us have mana easily
Which I want to deal with sooner rather then later.

~B

Pedit: Micc

I don’t know who “you guys” is but I think the amount of antitown that happens if everyone has mana is disastrous. This game has is and always will be about voting.

[OnTheMark]

VOTE: Micc
ok give me your other reads.

Like, is Titus scum?

Under one theory I have yes.

[OnTheMark]

VOTE: Micc
ok give me your other reads.

Like, is Titus scum?

Under one theory I have yes.

Why are you ignoring my requests for a readwall without associative reads and detailing your thoughts clearly?

I would still like this. It would greatly help me determine your motivations.

Not ignoring it I just CAN’T at work. I already said this. Wtf

[OnTheMark]

Then what do you make of Titus demanding I do one while at work?

FYI done with D&D and exhausted will do my best.

[OnTheMark]

Then what do you make of Titus demanding I do one while at work?

FYI done with D&D and exhausted will do my best.

This question means nothing to me because its not about the concept of casing its about what's inside the case.

I like legit don't understand that answer.

Tipsy On The Mark is on the Case

[OnTheMark]

Wait.
Math is

globally townread

that's not right.

Hi Alisae you're town

And yeah...It's right because I am doing MU thingies...where I get townread as town and name like a billion scums in a row...It's fun! But if you like wanna make me not globally townread so I like live another day I would love that.

[OnTheMark]

Like
Most cases are basicly pbpa analyzing a person's ISO.
Because of this, it takes completely out of context what that person is doing,
which makes sense because well, its an ISO. You can't grab context from an ISO.

Also cases make out things which aren't scummy at all, as scummy.
In fact, they try to make it seem like everything the target does, is in fact scummy.

I see this a lot with cases that cover a person's RVS posts on D5 and saying those are alignment indicative.
Like ffs, those posts were made in the RVS phase of the game. If people thought they were AI then it would have been pushed.
Like for example "Oh, this guy's post 5 is a naked vote and that's scummy"
The attempt to suddenly spin those posts around as scummy is disingenuous.

I don't want wall cases. I just want Mark to explain his opinions on slots without referencing other slots.

~Titus

But it's like mafia? How do I reference things without context? *looks at Titus with a puzzled look and raised eyebrow*


Pedit: It's why I went on MU to try some new stuffs.

[OnTheMark]

Far as I know it's only Sky who doesn't and Sky is just omgusing and scum flail soooo.....Pretty sure I am universally townread lolz

[OnTheMark]

If anyone wants to be a dear tho and give me a brief summary of important things I should know then that would be nice :3

I will be a dude for ya late tonight!

MAAAAAAAAAAAATH

Yes it's late tonight I'm doing the case promised first then your summary

[OnTheMark]

We are pulling our hair out trying to work with OTM.

They haven't done things that make me, for example, suspect them, but they're definitely not playing in a fashion that makes it likely they'll wield any influence anytime soon.

Titus wants thoughts sans associatives, I want a succinct case on Skybird so I can try to understand what OTM sees.

-Cerb

And what do ya know? It's the second time that you and Titus have poked me despite me saying I'm working on it. It feels like you're eager to just chomp it at the bit rather than patiently waiting for me to be done. It feels like you want to get it over with.

[OnTheMark]

Notice how here in 243 Skybird doesn't actually follow up. She asks a question then doesn't ask another question to sort the slot or do anything with it. It's more like just noise. This 'inactivity'/'inopinion'/'no stances' will be a common theme.

In post 260 Skybird again asks another inactive question, seemingly trying to encourage people to get into the issues that beeboy and I were having earlier without actually investing anything in there. She feels like one of us is scum but doesn't actually follow it up in any sort of way. It looks like it's more designed to try egg people into the Beeboy/me discussion.
In 323 Skybird sarcastically comments that she has the worst post in the game, but then doesn't do a damn thing to hunt or otherwise. The closest thing towards a read from Skybird is a guess, but she has shown no interest in exploring it or anything. Between this and the inactivity, I wanted to see Skybird develop the read.

In 364 they finally justify a read and it's for updating a signature line upon request. About the most null of things as one can get. Now while I understand one CAN townread someone for very little (e.g. what I mentioned before) I'd want something else to complement that person's ISO. In other words, the townread of Dunnstral is accompanied with a lot of other things to read the slot. In this case Skybird has nothing.

381 has very little in terms of hunting. Again, Skybird comes out votes blazing. This time Skybird attacks Venmar for wanting powers. However she

doesn't

attack On the Maid for the same thing, despite the prior scumread of Maid. If anything this wouldn't cause them to change votes to Venmar but would strengthen their case on Maid. The switch here reads as very inauthentic.


471 Steps back the ONE authentic read saying it's not really AI but it's gut. In other words, you caught me fabricating a reason for my read so I'm going to say gut.

513 is an attack on Venmar that again she doesn't follow up on.

669 backs out of her read of one of me and Maid being scum saying that we both might be.

689 Then goes back to "Oh yeah there was something bad in that argument" simply based on being asked what her position is on me. Her position on me or any other slot shouldn't end with a vote on Maid Cafe. If she was genuinely pushing Maid she'd be like putting effort in. Right now Skybird is pretty empty.

780 Reasons Reasons Reasons

1059 What's really bad about the post that Skybird cited is that it potentially outs a vig if we have one. This is barely the semblance of a case, then again I know where she stands on literallly NO one else.

1230 Pleads for me to push MC if she's town. If she's town I'd consider it but it's surely not on anything Sky has done.

Find me an opinion on anyone other than MC in her entire ISO that she hasn't backed away from and she still has even backed away from that. IMHO her ISO is worse than Dunnstral's and Dunnstral only has two letters. Now let's contrast this to a town game....

[OnTheMark]

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=70799&user_select[]=24218

There's a short towngame of Skybird's. 8 posts. Notice how many questions she asks of people. And one of them is a GG post. There's genuine investigation there.

[OnTheMark]

viewtopic.php?f=56&t=68256&user_select[]=24218

Scum game of Skybird's. Noticably devoid of questions. She does do a bit more in reads than she does here, but it's still more just declaratives. I kinda have a rule for Skybird. If the questions aren't flying out of her mouth enough to make her fly she's probably scum.

[OnTheMark]

I was with you until you used an 8 post game to represent sky birds town meta. That just can’t be a good place to pull from right?

It's one of the shorter ones. It's why I pulled it. I can go get a different one. I just figured 8 posts was easier to read And would get more buy in.

[OnTheMark]

viewtopic.php?f=56&t=68775&user_select[]=24218

There's a longer one for your tastes Micc. Thing mafia

[OnTheMark]

Alisae here's your summary gorgeous

Mastina mentioned some weird vote thing, Chara claims miller, Beeboy poked at me for what I don't get, more people claimed things, people tried sorting that, People suggest using Taly on Chara, Chara rescinds miller, beeboy complains and begs for mana some more and gets it. Despite my objections that this is a bad idea. and then you replace in and stuff happens happens.

There's all sorts of posts in between that cause me to scumread a lot of people but mainly I have a list of people who I would vote and a list of those I wouldn't.

[OnTheMark]

I am not explicitly scumreading beeboy/Maki hydra.

They have done things that ping me as scummy but at the same time scummy doesn’t always equal scum and the interactions don’t really support beeboy scum. I wish beeboy was scum that would make things easier because then some of the early weirdness is explained.

However they aren’t anywhere near lock town either. They are on my worry later pile.

[OnTheMark]

mastina you can say goodbye to your mana btw.

Why???

I townread Mastina+Yume

[OnTheMark]

mastina you can say goodbye to your mana btw.

Why???

I townread Mastina+Yume

This is scum mastina I'm sorry I never seen mastina just be so wrong before and approach a game from such a scummy PoV.

Please explain this to me. I just don’t see it. Will review it tomorrow.

[OnTheMark]

Water or wine don’t make me choose

[OnTheMark]

Seriously I townread you both *sniff*

[OnTheMark]

Seriously I townread you both *sniff*

But do you townread Micc?

No. I don’t scumread him either.

Oh and permission to Garcia or no on 1459?

[OnTheMark]

Mark looking busy

If my identity guess for OnTheMark is, indeed,

accurate

, then this is not alignment indicative; he would be doing "busywork" this early in the game regardless of his alignment.

He happens to be my second-strongest townread, a position I doubt he'll leave, but that is for other reasons.

That having been said, if I do indeed know his identity, I also know better than to assume I can read him.

Chara
OnTheMark (CAVEAT: if I know his identity this is a much weaker townread because my ability to read him is shit and in actuality bee's raised points mirror many of my own concerns)
Iconeum
Bronya Zaychik
Tibor and Lumia

Baku and Munna

Dunnstral
SnarkySnowman
Almost50

Venmar


Micc
Taly


Reasonably Rational (CAVEAT: IS EFFECTIVELY LYNCH-IMMUNE BEFORE D3)
Maid Cafe
Skybird


(ABSENT: Creature deliberately removed.)

Final readslist.

My hunch is mastina figured out who I was early. Mainly because she has mad props for my scum game.

[OnTheMark]

Another reason why I think you are scum is because of SU2, one of the previous games ran by the same mod. There, players were punished by scum for claiming flavor, something which I experienced first-hand. Here the same thing applies: scum punish players by taking away their mana.

- Phosphophyllite

Except you haven’t claimed flavor?

[OnTheMark]

Third is my motto: trust no one, doubt everyone. I used to tr people I like and I got burned for it twice. So that's when I developed this motto. You have Eyeball to thank for this. Just ask her, she is in this game too.

- Phosphophyllite

Eyeball? I must be waaaay too hyper because it’s 2 AM and I don’t have a clue who you mean.

[OnTheMark]

Why would I ask Skyball about mastina?

[OnTheMark]

Why would I ask Skyball about mastina?

Skybird sorry rip

Alisae would love this answered

[OnTheMark]

In all seriousness as soon as I got the mana I spent it on an instant card,
I'll go into what that is on D2

You realize mana doesn’t carry over yeah?

[OnTheMark]

@OTM: Reasons for suspecting Sky bird make sense, particularly the lack of follow-up in the inquiries she makes. I dislike the "feel"/interpretative parts of the case, where you say a certain action is her doing something, but her not doing things makes sense to me. How does all this relate to Iconeum?

@Yume: roles were created before alignments were assigned, Alisae certainly isn't scum because she has a mana stealing ability, AND that ability isn't even hers, it came from Micc, so even if the ability were AI, it would indicate Micc was scum. I don't particularly like that she immediately used it to steal from you, Alisae seems like largely a loose cannon when it comes to using powers, but I wouldn't say any of it makes her likely scum.

@Micc: can you(or anyone else, I suppose) explain the Venmar townread in a way that doesn't reference gut or feelings?

-Cerb

Will type up the Iconeum answer later. And Venmar

Can you please express why you don’t townread Venmar?

[OnTheMark]

@OTM: Reasons for suspecting Sky bird make sense, particularly the lack of follow-up in the inquiries she makes. I dislike the "feel"/interpretative parts of the case, where you say a certain action is her doing something, but her not doing things makes sense to me. How does all this relate to Iconeum?

@Yume: roles were created before alignments were assigned, Alisae certainly isn't scum because she has a mana stealing ability, AND that ability isn't even hers, it came from Micc, so even if the ability were AI, it would indicate Micc was scum. I don't particularly like that she immediately used it to steal from you, Alisae seems like largely a loose cannon when it comes to using powers, but I wouldn't say any of it makes her likely scum.

@Micc: can you(or anyone else, I suppose) explain the Venmar townread in a way that doesn't reference gut or feelings?

-Cerb

Will type up the Iconeum answer later. And Venmar

Can you please express why you don’t townread Venmar?

Because no reason to town read Venmar exists. He's done effectively nothing but ask to be the second biggest wagon at day end.

-Cerb

Yay! I get to do a Drixxy thing

So would you agree that we are in one of four worlds:
Sky is scum with Venmar,
Sky is town Venmar is scum,
Sky is scum Venmar town,
Or both are town.

Would you agree those are the only four options? I know it seems duh but I am doing a Drixxy premise thing in that spirit of working together thing so please play along

[OnTheMark]

See when Drixx and I hydra’d together we’d both start with like really “duh” premises and then build off those to make our arguments. So right now I am just building the foundational building blocks so then from that point it’s either attack the foundational points or a specific point in the chain. It removes a lot of “gut” and “I dunno if I agree with that” and replaces it with more concrete things which I feel are lacking from you a lot Cerb. I would love to see more “firm” stances from you on people.

[OnTheMark]

OTM. I don't have firm stances this early in games. Ever. That's the thing you're expecting from me that doesn't make sense.

Venmar: again, not discrediting you. I'm saying I've seen nothing from you that's notable.

-Cerb

Can you just agree to the four possible worlds or disagree with it?

[OnTheMark]

[quote=The Mysterious]
Oh, and I forgot to mention this, but any and all power gained by Town becomes significantly less helpful when scum know who has access to that power...which is what happens when scum go on missions.

In the scenario you were talking about, the problem was that you wouldn't know who on town would end up with these potentail threatening PRs, and possibly didn't even know what the PRs would be. Here, you know player x has these benefits, and you know to handle them appropriately.

Anyways, my point about wanting us to move on from this discussion still holds, I just had a relevant thought to share[/quote]

Does

this

also sound like something you’d agree with Cerb? In general scum knowing what town can do would weaken town?

[OnTheMark]

OTM. I don't have firm stances this early in games. Ever. That's the thing you're expecting from me that doesn't make sense.

Venmar: again, not discrediting you. I'm saying I've seen nothing from you that's notable.

-Cerb

Can you just agree to the four possible worlds or disagree with it?

Lol, sure. You missed the possible world where one or both of them is a third party role, but other than that yes, you are correct.

-Cerb

Cool yay now I can get started on my Drixxy style. Just for you *grins*

Would love to see if you agree with the other quote too. It drastically simplifies one of my arguments.

[OnTheMark]

anyone wanna explain to me like im a little child how sky's alignment is tied to mine?

Already did earlier But I will probably end up doing it again for Cerb

[OnTheMark]

Because it did When you were town

[OnTheMark]

I posted my Cerb case and Cerb seems to understand it and I am about to go a different approach and Drixx it up for why Venmar and Iconeum are both likely town. Would like for you to read it and make a judgment for yourself instead of asking me.

@Cerb here you are btw viewtopic.php?p=8251167#p8251167

[OnTheMark]

Like this is the shit that really annoys me about you Titus but it’s worse when you’re scum.

I do as you ask then you either attack my skill/play for doing as you ask or you never evaluate the original ask.

So how about you tell me if you like my case on Skybird that has no associatives?

[OnTheMark]

@Mark, Who are you even talking to? I am asking about a readwall from you. You keep telling me later and then doing other engagements in the thread that feel like making busiwork. I'm not talking case everyone. Just like

Adam. Town, His enagement with Brian on page X was really town.

Oh now you moved the goal posts to everyone? Wow

And the Adam’s engagement with Brian on page X is an associative.

So like I still don’t know what you want?

[OnTheMark]

Like this is the shit that really annoys me about you Titus but it’s worse when you’re scum.

I do as you ask then you either attack my skill/play for doing as you ask or you never evaluate the original ask.

So how about you tell me if you like my case on Skybird that has no associatives?

You haven't. That's why I am hounding you trying to get you to focus.

I'm frankly not enthused by anything you have said on Skybird. Could they be scum? Yes. However, we are much likely to work with you on scumreads. I think Skybird sounds really genuine. I'm a little miffed you randomly left Iconeum when they haven't posted since their wagon.

~Titus

Why does Skybird sound genuine?

What posts specifically?

I have posted things where I believe Skybird isn’t. The burden of proof is on you to either attack the premises I have presented or to present new ones where you believe Skybird is genuine. It isn’t enough to barebones disagree. You asked me for a case. I did that. Now interact with it and attack where you think it’s bad or I humbly request the court of public opinion to admit the wall as evidence to be considered.

If I was in a courtroom and I have a tape of a scumspect killing someone they have to attack the tape or claim vig. I want a similar response from you regarding my case.

[OnTheMark]

We are pulling our hair out trying to work with OTM.

They haven't done things that make me, for example, suspect them, but they're definitely not playing in a fashion that makes it likely they'll wield any influence anytime soon.

Titus wants thoughts sans associatives, I want a succinct case on Skybird so I can try to understand what OTM sees.

-Cerb

@Cerb here you said she wanted thoughts on Skybird sans associatives?

[OnTheMark]

Your lack of a townread on me is annoying but I don't think you're scum. There's other people who I want to focus on first as if you are town I have faith I'll get that aha moment and we'll work together well.

~Titus

why is it annoying? neither head has really done anything too townie. if you're town i'll sort you as such later.

any comment on your #1315 and #1318, where it definitely feels like you're actually leaning on a scumread on me?

More keeping an eye on. Putting your reads as the consensus is what you and I did in Civ and we were mostly right. I think it was just too early for that yet. Townblocks happen a bit more organically but they can still be observed. Think more gun to my head town but don't do anything crazy is my read.

~Titus

Yeah no.

I veto the shit out of this.

We are not discussing Civ ever and you ignored every townread I had and they flipped town.

So yeah my scumreads sucked but damn. Like no.

Mentioning Civ brings back deep memories and makes me think you will never work with me regardless of alignment.

I humbly request you never bring up Civ ever again.

[OnTheMark]

@Mark, Who are you even talking to? I am asking about a readwall from you. You keep telling me later and then doing other engagements in the thread that feel like making busiwork. I'm not talking case everyone. Just like

Adam. Town, His enagement with Brian on page X was really town.

Oh now you moved the goal posts to everyone? Wow

And the Adam’s engagement with Brian on page X is an associative.

So like I still don’t know what you want?

I think the goal post was always at everyone. Maybe Titus just said she wanted thoughts without associatives, and didn't specify on everyone. *shrug* and I also think she's talking more about stuff like x+y are scum together, not this interaction x had with y makes me think they're town because it appears to be genuine scumhunting.

-Cerb

I've said readwall multiple times. Otherwise, yes. I even gave an example earlier this morning of what I want.

Mark has left several theories dangling, T and L, Inconeum, Random scum team call, me being scum under an unnamed theory. I want him to stop, sit back and think.

I am sitting back and thinking.

I am not just bound to one theory. There’s 17 players

Bound to one theory leads to tunnel Mark

[OnTheMark]

@OnTheMark, The burden is on me if I care to persuade you. At the moment, I don't. I like two wagons for my VCA for later. I am looking to establish your thought process in a clear, concise manner. I'm not even controlling our vote today. This is more about communication.

The first step in communicating with anyone is to find out their desires and resistances.

As for 1572, I was talking to Venmar not you there.


~Titus

Then if you can neighborize me. I'm not spamming the fucking thread doing a monkey dance trying to guess what you want repeatedly when you just dismiss all the work I do saying you don't even care to interact with it. I'm asking the thread to scumread Skybird becuase I wholly believe they are scum and you're saying that you townread them yet don't have to interact with the case because you're not trying to persuade me. I'm not asking you to persuade me. I'm asking you to persuade the thread. Otherwise if someone doesn't interact with my case, and then townreads Skybird I'm going to give them the same response.

I'm directing arguments towards the thread for the game benefit. I am not and will not get into an argument with you that will last pages. I'm going to work on what Cerb asked since it's a direct straightforward post, it's something I can do, and it's something I can cooperate on.

When you show the willingness to work together and with what I have that already matched your previous parameters let me know. I am NOT going to do what will easily be a half a day to a literal days worth of work to display every theory I am running under just for you to discount it like you did the Sky case which took a few hours to get just how YOU like it.

[OnTheMark]

So for this we have four potential premises (include 3rd party in with "town" for now)
Option A: Skybird is scum and Venmar is scum.
Option B: Skybird is scum and Venmar is town.
Option C: Skybird is town and Venmar is scum.
Option D: Skybird is town and Venmar is town.

There is an option E of having some sort of crazy as fuck multiball thing, but the main goal of this is to work off what is most likely. Scum ask what if.
The goal of this is to get to the most likely response, so Option E is discarded if/until such a time said option exists. Afterwards, the same will be done for Iconeum and I believe that the most likely option is Skybird scum, Venmar town, Iconeum town. So that's the stated goal. If someone attacks these given points and finds a flaw, then either that flaw must be addressed or the conclusion discarded.

[OnTheMark]

Now take a look at the case on 1466 in which I present that Skybird is scum. Without any counter evidence to the point, the more likely option is that Skybird is scum, and as such will delve into those points first.

In addition, we add the general premise (Premise B), that scum are in a much better position when they know what town can do. A point granted by Cerb in this thread.
I also wish to add an additional premise (Premise C), that should be straightforward, that scum generally want to empower/make their buddies look favorable without town catching on.

In 381 Skybird is supposed to be bugged by Venmar's posting and asks why Venmar thinks he has to have an ability to be useful. This directly goes against Premise C. Furthermore in 513 Skybird drops a quick one liner against Venmar and it looks like a classic chainsaw. This further violates Premise C when Skybird has not even talked about a majority of the game. Furthermore, Venmar's evil laugh gif (obviously a joke) reminds me of an MU user and I don't anticipate if someone was legit scum with a partner they would call attention to Skybird's case and brush it off at the same time with a meme.

Therefore, I posit that IF Skybird is scum, the most likely conclusion is that Venmar is town.

Now we take a look at the "if Skybird is town" options, assume my earlier case is flawed, and see if we can determine Venmar's likely alignment that way.

[OnTheMark]

Ok, well I'm not neighborizing someone (assuming I had the power) who won't follow basic requests and is clearly dodging all attempts at being helped to communicate better.

Good luck spamming the thread and being ignored because no one can understand you. I'm beginning to think you want it that way and are hiding behind drama. When town inevitably gets sick of you, they'll lynch you and you'll wonder why.

I humbly request you answer Chara's question. I am not doing any sort of drama or derp tunnelling or any of the labels you have given. You're making a claim I am doing things. I humbly ask that you present the court of public opinion evidence. Otherwise, your points can and should be discarded like the shaming that you are doing. I have no idea why you are attacking me rather than the points I am presenting. Most people are clearly able to follow my posts. They are just choosing to either A) agree or B) not interact with it at all. And the people who don't interact with it, I don't take stock in when they present something later. It's pretty simple. You can keep calling me a bad communicator (without evidence), but that doesn't change the fact I still don't have a clue what you want and will not bicker with you publicly. That's already been demonstrated to be harmful in prior games. So if you have a request, make it clear, then interact with what I try to do towards it, even if it's not 100% what you wanted. Because that's how we work together. One of us requests something of the other, that person attempts to do it. Then back and forth back and forth until we meet in the middle and get what we want. Not through slander and insults. So if you want to work together, stop calling me bad, and actually work together. Otherwise your posts go into the I'm ignoring you pile and only responding to Kiana, after she responds to the Skybird case more than "unimpressed".

[OnTheMark]

Venmar, who do you read as scum in this game?
Other then voting yourself 'for mana gain', you are voting Tibor because the slot went against purposefully lynching townie D1 as a general strategy... Of all things Tibor hydra posted, that's like the one thing I really liked about him.

Because of how Iconeum questions Venmar. It's notably different than how Sky is doing it, and doesn't seem to be out of a "I want you to explain your mana situation" versus a "Hey your reads kinda seem shitty to me, talk about them with me" way.

[OnTheMark]

i don't think you're tunneling, Mark. obviously, as i'm voting with you. this isn't even close to a derptunnel. what's Mark said that isn't legitimate, Kiana?

@Titus/Kiana actually this one.

And what exactly is not concise about my Skybird case? I make a premise Skybird has no opinions. Then cite posts that support that opinion. Cerb can see that. Yet to you it is not concise.I legit don't understand how to make something more concise than one fucking point.

[OnTheMark]

Furthermore, by definition, a read wall is NOT concise.

A read wall by definition, is a list of all your thoughts on all players.
It requires mountains of data. None of which is "concise". If you want all of my reasons why I townread or scumread someone that's necessarily a shit ton of work and citing of posts and of PBPA's that most people in thread said they ignore. So are you asking for a read wall or a reads list? And if you want a reads list, that is fundamentally not what you want either as you've said you want to know all of my theories. Which means that in certain situations a player is scum or they are town. Show me an example of what you want.

[OnTheMark]

Venmar, who do you read as scum in this game?
Other then voting yourself 'for mana gain', you are voting Tibor because the slot went against purposefully lynching townie D1 as a general strategy... Of all things Tibor hydra posted, that's like the one thing I really liked about him.

Because of how Iconeum questions Venmar. It's notably different than how Sky is doing it, and doesn't seem to be out of a "I want you to explain your mana situation" versus a "Hey your reads kinda seem shitty to me, talk about them with me" way.

This is betterish. It shows that you scumread more mechanically minded posting over mental suggestions.

Except this is patently not true. I scumread some kinds of mechanically minded posts. Sometimes players are mechanically minded like Cerb. What matters to borrow Drixx's words is the town motivation. Of which I see none from Skybird.

[OnTheMark]

Except that’s not what you’re asking

You’re asking me to cover around 5 different theories in such a manner. There is almost no player I can do that to yet except Skybird. Because mafia is all relational. The reason I could find the scum in the MU game is because they made a ridiculously incriminating kill in Fuchs. Between that and divagreen being obvious.

Right now I would need a picture more than words and sentences and I am trying to figure out how to draw what is the concept of a current in a picture. It isn’t something that can be a sound byte. I push people sometimes to see the current and sometimes because I am sure they are scum. In Skybird’s case I am about 90% confident the slot is independently scum.

[OnTheMark]

Furthermore, by definition, a read wall is NOT concise.

A read wall by definition, is a list of all your thoughts on all players.
It requires mountains of data. None of which is "concise". If you want all of my reasons why I townread or scumread someone that's necessarily a shit ton of work and citing of posts and of PBPA's that most people in thread said they ignore. So are you asking for a read wall or a reads list? And if you want a reads list, that is fundamentally not what you want either as you've said you want to know all of my theories. Which means that in certain situations a player is scum or they are town. Show me an example of what you want.

I don't want PBPAs. I don't want every piece of data that says why you feel like you do. You are deliberately being obtuse.

I want you to give an initial conclusion with 2-3 sentences that details why you feel that way. An impression.

For instance,

RR is likely town due to the sheer effort he spends mediating his townreads but he was op as scum in SU2 so I have reservations.

^^^ That's what I want for each slot. You'll hit on all impirtant theories that way without a PbPA. I had given you this example before.

As for the Chara question, I feel your Iconeum thoughts do not hold up.

As for the Chara question, my Iconeum answer came after and doesn’t address the core of the point. How am I doing the derptunneling you’re accusing me of?

[OnTheMark]

Titus called for SoS.

SoS stands for what?[/i]

Mark you are doing an extraordinary thing by making Titus frustrated, this is really unusual I think you need to take a step back for a moment.

Titus being frustrated is not unusual by any means. She gets frustrated any time someone doesn't bend to her will and wants. She uses insults and other things to try to get her way and it's quite frankly bullshit. This happens with relatively minor RL things. Titus being frustrated and using emotional manipulation is par for the goddamn course. She needs to either calm down and try to explain points or just walk away and stop the conversation. She needs to state what she needs clearly and stop being antagonizing (e.g. NO ONE WILL LISTEN TO YOU BECAUSE YOU SUCK {paraphrase}) The antagonizing is what does more damage than anything. I'm working together with multiple people providing what they ask because they ask in a clear way. Hell she freaks out over board games sometimes like it's the end of the world. She's cried her eyes out as scum to the point where she has tears coming down her cheeks in order to win a game. This is a game. If she's getting this worked up over a game then she needs to step away. As much as this may sound like a cold hearted thing to say, emotional pleas like this to me hold no sway, especially when she keeps poking the beast and I've been thoroughly content to leave it alone.

I understand that you are trying your best to work with her but it just comes across to me that you just aren't understanding what is needed of you.

I agree with this. I give Cerb what he wants when he made a request.

Titus is absolutely correct the PbPA against Skybird making for an extremely unconvincing case, you simply paint every action of Skybird's ISO as scummy even though most, if not all, of the evidence presented is NAI.

That's not how this works. You don't just take a case and relabel it PbPA. A PbPa is notably different. It goes post by post and says "Player A did this as scum with the express purpose of inflamming Player B town then had a scum goal of player A". A premise: Skybird has no opinions, supported with specific posts Skybird has no opinions is NOT a PbPA by any means. It doesn't go post by post trying to convince you of scum motivation, it's a case with evidence associated. It's up to YOU to state WHY it's NAI to you instead of just dismissing it outright.

Take a look at Alisae's case for tips on what is expected of you.

Fine I will reformat my Skybird case into that format using each of Alisae's sections

I see the exact same patterns in what you're doing as what RC would do to ruin games and become scum MVP.

Do NOT compare me and RC as scum. What we do is notably different from each other. In a scum game, I rely on a thread lynching itself. Scum is remarkably easy on MS because all I have to do is wait for bad as fuck points and agree with them. You sell people what they want as scum. As town, it's notably different. I don't sell people what they want, I point out what I think we NEED.

Fortunately you don't even have half the toxicity that he has, but the aspect of stubbornness is still there and I need to nip this in the bud early before it becomes a big problem for town.

I am working on being less stubborn and was doing my MU way of doing things which involves poking everyone. Then Titus said to push someone, Skybird, and I am. Now I am stubborn, because it isn't someone you agree with? You or Titus have yet to interact in a meaningful with what I present, just continually discarding it.

One major problem is the rush to find associatives which I believe is really dumb on Day 1 because it results in absurd conclusions that effectively amount of "______ who defends Skybird is scum."

I HATE this strawman, and it's not what I do. Not everyone who defends Skybird is scum. Those without a townie motivation or without reason deserve further investigation. That's not dependent on the slots alignment. If I said you were town without reasons, I would then be deserving of further scrutiny. It's not dependent upon Skybird's alignment. It depends on the motivation brought to the table. And when I've been victorious as town it's ALWAYS been through associatives. You'll never get me to quit doing that. Ever. You have your playstyle I have mine.

where the name of the person in the blank keeps changing which is obviously wrong. You have begun to call RR and me scum for defending Skybird or not agreeing with your push which is frankly absurd and ridiculous, please take a moment to breathe and realize how far you are derp in the tunnel.

Again, I have called you scum, I'm assessing your reactions to it. I don't see a town motivation to ignore the piles of evidence Skybird is scum and then call me derp tunneling without any sort of town case to back that up. When I see all sorts of things that point to Skybird scum that everyone ignores and you're trying to push under the rug, what am I supposed to think. To borrow from SU2 when Titus interacted with me with my failed push on the masons, and the more you don't provide reasons, and the more you refuse to interact with what I'm saying and post an entire wall that boils down to "Don't listen to Mark he can't communicate" I can and have no problems if someone votes you to policy lynch your slot so the game continues without your insults and slander.

Titus wants you to take a step back and listen.

I am waiting for a fucking reason besides "gut" to hear. I'm listening even with the insults much as I'd rather just policy or if I had a vig, vig your slot and be done with it.

You are almost going to the point of rambling and it is not something that the so-called court of public opinion will likely hold in your favour, they will be turned off. Again as Titus warned you do not want this to happen.

Titus's opinions without reasons hold absolutely no weight with me.

~Kiana

[OnTheMark]

Titus called for SoS.

SoS stands for what?

Mark you are doing an extraordinary thing by making Titus frustrated, this is really unusual I think you need to take a step back for a moment.

Titus being frustrated is not unusual by any means. She gets frustrated any time someone doesn't bend to her will and wants. She uses insults and other things to try to get her way and it's quite frankly bullshit. This happens with relatively minor RL things. Titus being frustrated and using emotional manipulation is par for the goddamn course. She needs to either calm down and try to explain points or just walk away and stop the conversation. She needs to state what she needs clearly and stop being antagonizing (e.g. NO ONE WILL LISTEN TO YOU BECAUSE YOU SUCK {paraphrase}) The antagonizing is what does more damage than anything. I'm working together with multiple people providing what they ask because they ask in a clear way. Hell she freaks out over board games sometimes like it's the end of the world. She's cried her eyes out as scum to the point where she has tears coming down her cheeks in order to win a game. This is a game. If she's getting this worked up over a game then she needs to step away. As much as this may sound like a cold hearted thing to say, emotional pleas like this to me hold no sway, especially when she keeps poking the beast and I've been thoroughly content to leave it alone.

I understand that you are trying your best to work with her but it just comes across to me that you just aren't understanding what is needed of you.

I agree with this. I give Cerb what he wants when he made a request.

Titus is absolutely correct the PbPA against Skybird making for an extremely unconvincing case, you simply paint every action of Skybird's ISO as scummy even though most, if not all, of the evidence presented is NAI.

That's not how this works. You don't just take a case and relabel it PbPA. A PbPa is notably different. It goes post by post and says "Player A did this as scum with the express purpose of inflamming Player B town then had a scum goal of player A". A premise: Skybird has no opinions, supported with specific posts Skybird has no opinions is NOT a PbPA by any means. It doesn't go post by post trying to convince you of scum motivation, it's a case with evidence associated. It's up to YOU to state WHY it's NAI to you instead of just dismissing it outright.

Take a look at Alisae's case for tips on what is expected of you.

Fine I will reformat my Skybird case into that format using each of Alisae's sections

I see the exact same patterns in what you're doing as what RC would do to ruin games and become scum MVP.

Do NOT compare me and RC as scum. What we do is notably different from each other. In a scum game, I rely on a thread lynching itself. Scum is remarkably easy on MS because all I have to do is wait for bad as fuck points and agree with them. You sell people what they want as scum. As town, it's notably different. I don't sell people what they want, I point out what I think we NEED.

Fortunately you don't even have half the toxicity that he has, but the aspect of stubbornness is still there and I need to nip this in the bud early before it becomes a big problem for town.

I am working on being less stubborn and was doing my MU way of doing things which involves poking everyone. Then Titus said to push someone, Skybird, and I am. Now I am stubborn, because it isn't someone you agree with? You or Titus have yet to interact in a meaningful with what I present, just continually discarding it.

One major problem is the rush to find associatives which I believe is really dumb on Day 1 because it results in absurd conclusions that effectively amount of "______ who defends Skybird is scum."

I HATE this strawman, and it's not what I do. Not everyone who defends Skybird is scum. Those without a townie motivation or without reason deserve further investigation. That's not dependent on the slots alignment. If I said you were town without reasons, I would then be deserving of further scrutiny. It's not dependent upon Skybird's alignment. It depends on the motivation brought to the table. And when I've been victorious as town it's ALWAYS been through associatives. You'll never get me to quit doing that. Ever. You have your playstyle I have mine.

where the name of the person in the blank keeps changing which is obviously wrong. You have begun to call RR and me scum for defending Skybird or not agreeing with your push which is frankly absurd and ridiculous, please take a moment to breathe and realize how far you are derp in the tunnel.

Again, I have called you scum, I'm assessing your reactions to it. I don't see a town motivation to ignore the piles of evidence Skybird is scum and then call me derp tunneling without any sort of town case to back that up. When I see all sorts of things that point to Skybird scum that everyone ignores and you're trying to push under the rug, what am I supposed to think. To borrow from SU2 when Titus interacted with me with my failed push on the masons, and the more you don't provide reasons, and the more you refuse to interact with what I'm saying and post an entire wall that boils down to "Don't listen to Mark he can't communicate" I can and have no problems if someone votes you to policy lynch your slot so the game continues without your insults and slander.

Titus wants you to take a step back and listen.

I am waiting for a fucking reason besides "gut" to hear. I'm listening even with the insults much as I'd rather just policy or if I had a vig, vig your slot and be done with it.

You are almost going to the point of rambling and it is not something that the so-called court of public opinion will likely hold in your favour, they will be turned off. Again as Titus warned you do not want this to happen.

Titus's opinions without reasons hold absolutely no weight with me.

~Kiana

pedit fixed tag see underlined.

[OnTheMark]

I don't think a readwall is hard it's just time consuming. But I think it would be much more productive if you put that time to making a readwall for Titus instead of a haphazard Skybird push, it takes the same amount of time but one has more benefits than the other.

Code: Select all

(PlayerName): I think (PlayerName) is Town/Scum/Null. This is because (Reason A)... and this can be seen from (Evidence A). (Reason A) is alignment indicative of Town/Scum because (Town/Scum Agenda A) Also, (Reason B), which can be seen from (Evidence B). This makes (PlayerName) even more likely to be Town/Scum because (Town/Scum Agenda B).

Rinse and repeat for all 17 players in the game and you got yourself a readwall. Probably would take less time than arguing to Titus about Skybird. But will make you so much more of an asset to town.

~Kiana

The above picture is what I do IN MY HEAD. I can't just put it into a sound byte for you or Titus. That's not how I function. I will redo my case in Alisae format because that's something I CAN do.

But until flips emerge figuring out WHICH world it is is nigh on impossible. Sky is scum in almost all of them and I see no town motivation for any of her posts. Until someone counters what I've argued I see no reason to change my mind. And just because I don't change my mind because Titus asks doesn't mean I'm not listening.

[OnTheMark]

Calling me a crybaby is an insult Mark.

I can't understand your points on Skybird. So I can't engage them. You can either do what I asked and make it followable or be ignored. I can't magically understand nonsense.

Now you're threatening to kill us over a simple request to give two-three sentences over each player. :/

When the rest of the game understands it and you don't you're just spamming I'm done talking with you. I'll redo the case in Alisae format because I promised but I'm not spending literally my entire Saturday on this with you or arguing for pages. I'm just done.

[OnTheMark]

Welcome to Alisae's Professional Guide

repurposed by MathBlade for Kiana

on How to PROPERLY Play Wolf

Thank you

Micc

Skybird for being a wonderful

test dummy

second case!

---

With this professional guide, I will teach you how to play Wolf properly in Project

M

afia! Let's get started!

　　　　　　　　　

Step 1: Attempting to dismantle townblocs at any chance possible.

Are you scum worried about town townblocing itself without you in it

or two strong town working together

?

All you have to do is just make is enhance a discussion that's going on with those two players without actually having a strong enough opinion yourself.

Source: viewtopic.php?p=10020002#p10020002




　　　　　　　　　

Step 2: Picking Out your mislynch

To win as scum you have to lynch town. Mafia is a game where townies lynch

townies

wolves and wolves lynch

wolves

townies.
So you have to pick your mislynches in a way that helps achieve this goal.
And what better way to do this then to pick two townies who are fighting that you want gone. It's a twofer!

Source: viewtopic.php?p=10020002#p10020002

Blatant inaction of her beliefs later is a huge plus.

　　　　　　　　　

Step 3: Forming a Case

However, you can't push a mislynch if you don't have any thing to justify your push off of.
After all, when you push a "fact" you can then fall back on the justification you built up as a scapegoat.
Also pushing "facts" allows you to present good

IRONCLAD

reasoning.
Who cares about being right? You're a wolf!
You don't need to push reads!
Reads =/ Facts.

Luckily, you can use claims as shown here:
viewtopic.php?p=10021837#p10021837



As a good basis to push someone.
Especially if you are scared of that role and you want it gone as fast as possible

and you have no idea what the role does

.
Who needs waiting for the night to come, why not just lynch it!

Keep in mind that when you are forming your case, you have to twist the narative to not consider any town motivation.
Also, make sure the read is presented as a strong confident read, because people like to sheep those!
These things are done perfectly well in 381:

You CAN attempt to stand it from a town PoV.
But you don't need to do that, you're a wolf after all!
Your job is to push mislynches!

　　　　　　　　　

Step 4: Pushing the lynch

Once you picked out your mislynch, you must attempt to turn everything they stated into something that is scummy!
Because you are a wolf, you can get away with having as many unorganic, unnatural, and agenda based reads as possible!
This is perfectly done here:

1059 was terrible IMO. The idea that because MC's mana generation method seems complicated is not based on anything MC is doing in thread, but is more towards not understanding how the mana claim works so she can manipulate it. She doesn't actually say anything towards with Beeboy is doing is scummy. Wanting to give an open ended question like that also makes other people more likely to talk about their mana claims and abilities as well. I'm kinda proud of some people for not going "Yeah, I think that's right because I generate mana simply or That sucks because mine requires climbing up Mount Everest three times then walking through the pits of hell". Skybird is also showing uncertainty about Chara’s sarcasm and deciding to

assume meaning

reread instead of seeking clarification.

Also when you are pushing your reads, you have to give as LITTLE to No content possible on anything else.
This is because attempting to fabricate reads and having to stick to them will come back to bite you when people analyze your PROGRESSION.
But when you DO form reads, make sure to shade as many people as possible as seen here

OR just not provide any reasons and just spam the same person over and over again

:

Just see all of Skybird's ISO for pretty much non stop tunnelling on Maid Cafe, yet Titus/Kiana don't read as a derp tunnel despite Skybird having like no reasons hooray!

　　　　　　　　　

Step 5: Faking your Scumhunting

As a wolf, you have to look like you are scumhunting. To do this, you push mislynches, but occasionally you have to ask questions.
How do we counter such a boring habbit?
There are two methods!

The first method is to not care about the question.
If you ask random questions and hope that people will think they are "good questions" and have 0 interest in the question, you will look like you are scumhunting. This is seen here:

280 asks about MC and then only cares if I believe it, much later. Not the thread.

The second method is to not care about the answer!
For example, if you are going to ask a quesiton, and the questionee provides an answer, make sure to discredit and/or scumread the answer to that question as much as possible.
As long as you have a response already made to the questionee's answer, then you are good to go. Just use that response no matter what answer they provide.

Or just never do anything about it and go back to actively lurking. Example incoming

Asking if a Varsoon post is available then never following it up, then with an AtE appeal of "oh don't mislynch me" rather than actually trying to see if MC was confirmed scum. If a townread player made a scumslip that's something I'd genuinely look at. However when Cerb and Skybird both don't follow up it's rather weird.

This is a great example the many times Skybird hasn't had opinion or hasn't followed through on jackshit.

　　　　　　　　　

Conclusion

Thank you for reading

my

Alisae's repurposed guide on how to play Wolf in Project

M

afia!!!!!!!!!!!!111!!!!!1!11!!1
11!!1
!1
!!!!!!!11!!!1
11!1

[OnTheMark]

(P.S. Alisae while this may sound like a parody I AM taking your Micc case under consideration too) (I just figured Kiana can't say "I'm not doing a case" when I use like 90% of your words lol)

[OnTheMark]

For the record, I can't take a case in that format seriously, and I won't consider either of them.

*shrug*

They made me chuckle, and that's it.

Apparently Kiana likes it though.

-Cerb

And that's the core of the issue. You want it presented as premises and points and with specific post numbers
Kiana wants how the person's not being townie in a more narrative/how to format
Some people want rapid fire posting that they can instantly read as genuine.

Until we all learn to work outside what we're comfortable with we can't truly cooperate. The more hoops that people have to jump through to be listened to the more spam that gets created in thread the more people tune out. Instead work with the cards people bring to the table rather than demanding everyone bring what you want.

[OnTheMark]

............

329 was terrible imo. The idea of claiming in order to spur discussion and interaction is gross. Wanting to give a public warning that his ability is ever changing and unpredictable is scum motivated preparation for later and further shows how he’s missing half the utility of the ability. Him showing uncertainty about Chara’s sarcasm and deciding to assume meaning instead of seeking clarification.
..............

Explain to me the difference between this and Alisae's case when I literally rip out a post number change like one-two sentences just to have it paraphrased?

[OnTheMark]

I'm really trying hard not to be snarky but you're praising Alisae's as the example and then when I do copy pasta and paraphrase it's all of a sudden NAI and what if?

[OnTheMark]

You can't have Alisae say the same sentences and go "YEAH THAT'S PROOF MICC IS SCUM"
and then when I say the same sentences go
"THAT'S NAI WHAT IF SKYBIRD'S TOWN?"

So which is it? Is the Micc case not good enough and needs more issues and it's NAI OR Is the Skybird case worthy of you actually interacting with it?

@Creature Titus is saying I suck at communicating and I can't explain my point despite the majority of the town block saying they see the points. She then argues that case from Alisae is gold as to why Micc is scum but I change all the Micc references is to Skybird and it's all of a sudden NAI.

[OnTheMark]

Exactly the point.

It introduces levity something sorely needed while making my point at the same time.

It was better than going
“Nah nah nah nah nah Batman!!!!” At the top of my keyboard lungs.

Oh and Alisae copied Micc and made Chara a double voter and stole mastina’s mana despite mastina being obvTown which has me sad.

[OnTheMark]

............

329 was terrible imo. The idea of claiming in order to spur discussion and interaction is gross. Wanting to give a public warning that his ability is ever changing and unpredictable is scum motivated preparation for later and further shows how he’s missing half the utility of the ability. Him showing uncertainty about Chara’s sarcasm and deciding to assume meaning instead of seeking clarification.
..............

Explain to me the difference between this and Alisae's case when I literally rip out a post number change like one-two sentences just to have it paraphrased?

The changes you made are actually critical. Here, Micc assumes. Skybird wanrs to reread. Assuming what others think is anti-town. Telegraphing scummy behavior is also pro scum.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not lock scum on Micc but I think it's a good place to pressure just like Iconeum.

~Titus

Yes. Skybird assumed what Chara had meant and then offered to reread and nothing came out of it. The core remains she assumed. Ergo by your own point anti town. She promises to reread and never follows up on that point. The crux of the issue is unchanged. She assumed and needed a reread. Micc assumed and is a scumread if yours for it.

Pedit: Skybird for starters @Creature

[OnTheMark]

@Chara got any other reads or the weather? Anything important worth discussing?

[OnTheMark]

Wait is OTM Mulch?
~Lumia

No.

There's only so many players who are mafiascum regulars, have been gone from playing on mafiascum for the last few (specifically, three) months, and who are frequent players on mafia universe that get nightkilled often there. Also that're rather fond of the theory behind the game. I can think of only one player fitting that criteria, and he's a player I have mislynched. (This is the safest way for me to not narrow his identity down. I'd do so considerably more when stating what happened after said mislynch.)

RR is obv towning tbh, they are asking the right questions and moving the game forwards.

None of which makes them town, it just makes them Reasonably Rational.

Mastina please for the love of all that is townie catch up. I am Mathblade.

I got nk’d after naming like 8 scum in a row over mechanically sound power roles.

[OnTheMark]

im just trying to understand your intentions because I still haven't decided how much I trust what you're doing here. but you role's obviously powerful and we aren't lynching it so me voting you is stupid

Why wouldn't we lynch Alisae's role again? I want your reasons for it, other than "it's powerful".

-Cerb

Because Role is NAI and mafia is about voting scum and its a Varsoon game.

[OnTheMark]

a big part of how i do this is analyzing the approach of other players to my slot, so when players like Alisae come in and say i'm obvtown i don't know how to handle them. because e knows how terrible and stilted my scumplay ways (even if i'd gotten a bit better since), so it's not strange to see em townreading me. at the same time, this isn't even close to my town meta. i'm not even

attempting

to interact with my scumreads and being flighty and bubbly and emotional isn't really... something i consider difficult to fake.

OOOH! Thanks for reminding me!

A50 said something about the fact that your play being so far outside of your town meta is a good thing, and that's why he likes us, because we always play the same regardless of alignment.

I misspoke in that post. It wasn't that you were out of your town meta, it's that there exists no prior play from you which I can compare this to, because it's so far outside of the way I've seen you play period. It's not that I want to be able to say x is town because of y 100% of the time, it's that it is impossible for me to rationally use this as an argument for you one way or another, cuz it just doesn't make sense.

-Cerb

pedit: Shush OTM, you're ruining my point.

Why is that a bad thing? Wouldn’t you readjust after being told a logical point?

Are you being sarcastic?

[OnTheMark]

So, Venmar, why now and not earlier?

-Cerb

because it's silly now

eh i think im going to change my vote to the guy that has been all voice and... that's it

vote: reasonably rational

BUT CAN I INTEREST YOU
IN MICC?

for 2 anime coins, maybe

Reasonably Rational will never get majority.

I agree with the read but it’s a horrible vote.

You and I will never outspeak Cerb. Unless someone well liked and respected hops on the wagon is done, unfortunately.

[OnTheMark]

So, Venmar, why now and not earlier?

-Cerb

because it's silly now

eh i think im going to change my vote to the guy that has been all voice and... that's it

vote: reasonably rational

BUT CAN I INTEREST YOU
IN MICC?

for 2 anime coins, maybe

Reasonably Rational will never get majority.

I agree with the read but it’s a horrible vote.

You and I will never outspeak Cerb. Unless someone well liked and respected hops on the wagon is done, unfortunately.

Plus I have an ace up my sleeve! Though mastina slot is already on the wagon! But mastina head probably isn't the one that placed the vote. :p

-Cerb

You literally can’t. There is no role that provides an ace up the sleeve. It’s why I don’t give a shit about what people claim. There is no deck or rational basis. Roles are not alignment indicative.

Hell you could be a scum with what would be the scum equivalent of an IC and just claim IC. Until and unless a moderator confirms someone as town I don’t give a monkey’s butt what you claim I don’t care about mechanics in terms of alignment. So no you don’t have an ace and if you believe you do save it don’t fucking talk about it now.

[OnTheMark]

hey now, you won't achieve your dreams with

that

attitude my friend

pedit: @OTM's last post

Meh I don’t give a shit about dreams right now.

Mafia is a game of influence. I will save up my chips if I have to.

[OnTheMark]

It’s the whole reason Chara’s claim was bullshit and it was obvTown. If roles are independent of alignments then a Miller makes 0 sense to claim and doesn’t come from scum. Scum have to plan long term. Same with Yume/mastina.

If I am in lylo with those two just stick a fork in me town loses because I would have 0 fuckin clue.

[OnTheMark]

Putting your reads as the consensus is what you and I did in Civ and we were mostly right.

just remembered this response; i don't remember playing in any "civ" games?

She probably meant Vecna. Titus confuses names a lot.

[OnTheMark]

Mastina can we not talk claims

please

? How you get mana what can you do with mana your deck colors your planeswalker name and how many periods and symbols are in your role PM none of it is alignment indicative.

What matters is what is done with it and how. Please stop making this game confusing people.

Just treat it like a mountainous and that occasionally you do things.

[OnTheMark]

And yes I do mean OCCASIONALLY. If everyone uses their abilities now then we get fucked if we need something later.

[OnTheMark]

Meh I don’t give a shit about dreams right now.

Mafia is a game of influence. I will save up my chips if I have to.

now join the cause you've been destined for

I don’t understand the gif? What cause am I destined for?

[OnTheMark]

Yes but it's that very same process which would lead me to think that planes aren't important--if V reached a point where he was forced to make up a new plane, that would mean that there couldn't exactly be pre-planned game mechanics for said made up ninth plane, now, could it? As a result, that would mean planes mean little to nothing...

Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented.

Knox's 8th

The detective must not light on any clues are not instantly produced for the inspection of the reader. Any writer can make a mystery by telling us that at this point the great Picklock Holes suddenly bent down and picked up from the ground an object which he refused to let his friend see. He whispers 'Ha!' and his face grows grave - all that is illegitimate mystery - making. The skill of the detective author consists in being able to produce his clues and flourish them defiantly in our faces: 'There!' he says, 'what do you make of that?' and we make nothing.

Source: http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Knox%27s_Decalogue

@Alisae/Taly, But 8 planes is what is mentioned? Is that not the clue? I don’t understand your point.

[OnTheMark]

I don’t understand the gif? What cause am I destined for?

-my attempt at a joke-
-your head-

join on me on rr

If it gets close to majority sure. But I don’t want to ruin the Skybird wagon for what is in essence a pipe dream.

[OnTheMark]

My point is that because there are no "hints" refering to a 9th plane
said 9th plane does not exist.

17 players. The game cannot mathematically have 9 days.

Thank towniness.

[OnTheMark]

My point is that because there are no "hints" refering to a 9th plane
said 9th plane does not exist.

17 players. The game cannot mathematically have 9 days.

Thank towniness.

Barring failed kills.

-Cerb

Even failed kills it is literally impossible. For this I am making the assumption 4 scum and for ease of argument no vigs or modkills

Assume days 1-7 we lynch all town craptastically. Then day 8 is 10 alive, 6 town 4 scum. You’d have to have scum not submit a single kill in that case. No way 7 kills get blocked and we never lynch scum. Like that case is so astronomically rare I will discard it for you because Varsoon wouldn’t make a game without nightkills.

You’re free to argue that a 9th is still possible but it’s odds are so remote if we get to a day 9 then Varsoon just has the last day be on the godly plane of infinite mana or some bullshit like that I think that’s an mtg thing?

[OnTheMark]

Your notes are good but nobody can parse a mindmap like that. We want you to send it to the translator and then to the secretary to present them meaningfully. Unfortunately this a solo game so you have to play all roles of translator and secretary. You need to be doing that.

LEAVE IT ALONE MY GOD.

and yes, I did pick it :3

Already am. I have intentionally ignored the last question from the slot too.

[OnTheMark]

I have spent months trying to do things “Titus’s way” and her “advice” I would rather just not play then do things “her way” which involves never disagreeing with her or having my own playstyle.

My townreads agree with me and I am forming a block. That’s good enough for me. I am not her and she is not me.

I don’t want to be an “asset”. I want to be helpful and transparent. If that means never playing in a Titus game again ever so be it.

[OnTheMark]

I am done discussing this with you and further attempts will result in me ignoring any post your slot has ever.

[OnTheMark]

My point is that because there are no "hints" refering to a 9th plane
said 9th plane does not exist.

17 players. The game cannot mathematically have 9 days.

Thank towniness.

Barring failed kills.

-Cerb

or consecutive no lynches if town is REALLY dumb enough.

Talk with me about the anime Knox’s 8th is from.

Or some read. Literally anything please?

[OnTheMark]

So I hear the Jets got the this round pick from the Colts. Probably want a franchise QB.

[OnTheMark]

OTM - Locktown
Bee - Locktown
Chara - Locktown
Venmar - I townread it
LolSnowman - I townread it
A50 - I think this is town?

RR - Townleaning but ultimately have no opinion, and I think its better this way.
Creature - Is Creature locktown yet I should be able to tell but I'm incompetent.

Dunn - Lol
Random - Haven't read a single post.
Skyburd - Haven't read a single post.

Titus - Headaches
Icon - Could be scum

Mastina - DIE THE DEATH
Libor - SENTENCE TO DEATH
Micc - GREAT EQUALIZER IS THE DEATH

I feel offended that my slot is only known as "Titus" to you. Like, what am I, chopped liver?

~Kiana

No you’re contributing to making the thread toxic as fuck by reviving a dead conversation. So yes right now you are chopped liver. You’re asking me to do something I find impossible, repeatedly which is pissing me off. Calling it simple doesn’t make it so to me. Saying that I am being patronizing when I do my best at what you ask doesn’t make it so. Continuing this conversation is toxic. I will not. If you wish you may spam about a topic you find fun but if you don’t I will talk draft strategies or nfl or something light hearted if you direct a post at me about a read wall or how I should post.

[OnTheMark]

My point is that because there are no "hints" refering to a 9th plane
said 9th plane does not exist.

17 players. The game cannot mathematically have 9 days.

Thank towniness.

Barring failed kills.

-Cerb

or consecutive no lynches if town is REALLY dumb enough.

Talk with me about the anime Knox’s 8th is from.

Or some read. Literally anything please?

Knox's Decaloge was created by Monsignor Ronald A. Knox. It serves as the guide for detective fiction for its time.
the Red references Umineko's Red Truth.

If you want to talk reads I'll wait for you to talk to me about Micc or Libor
you could elaborate on your mastina read if you wish.
I'm having a hard time seeing mastina's most recent posts as town motivated posts.

Sure let’s do that give me a sec!

[OnTheMark]

Trying to townblock on page 5 feels kinda insane to me.

I read the whole thread but most of it felt pretty meaningless. I'll be back when we can vote.

predit: oh look its mastina. looking forward to finally playing a game with you.

@Alisae while I see your point here about destroying town blocks I can see the potential Micc doesn’t understand how I function. It doesn’t seem so bad as never townblock. It seems more doubting?

[OnTheMark]

Mainly I can see Micc’s posts from your points and some townie motivations. I can’t with Skybird.

And before I get yelled at for pushing Skybird my other people at the top of my list aren’t feasible.

[OnTheMark]

For the laughs

What is your point with Micc then? Lumia (Gamma) could be scum but meh there’s things that point town.

I really need an NK and a lynch to tell stuff.

[OnTheMark]

im just trying to understand your intentions because I still haven't decided how much I trust what you're doing here. but you role's obviously powerful and we aren't lynching it so me voting you is stupid

I don’t follow? How is this a push on destroying a town block? This seems to be doubting you? I think saying we won’t lynch you for mechanic reasons is probably the worst part of that post? Which everyone seems to use mechanics in their arguments so it’s NAI? Like I guess I don’t know what the pronoun “it” refers to and I am guessing that is what you meant?

[OnTheMark]

MATHBLADE FORGET ABOUT THE FUCKING TOWNBLOC

So then you care Micc pushed you? So? How does that make him scum? People do pushes I disagree with all the time? I think a push on you is rather well bad since you’re obvTown but I don’t think Micc sees it that way?

[OnTheMark]

I just got Xenoblade chronicles 2.
Bye everyone i hope you have fun in this game o/

~B

isn't the tutorial extremely long for that game?

I have been wanting that!

[OnTheMark]

but you role's obviously powerful and we aren't lynching it so me voting you is stupid

READ THAT
THEN READ THIS

So is your point that Micc is shading you without actually trying to get you lynched?

[OnTheMark]

Champion of the Parish is now voting Shining Dreamers.
Shining Dreamers currently has 2 votes against them.

VOTE: Shining Dreamers

Get back on Micc.

And Math I give up.
You're completely missing my point completely and if you're not going to read where I fully explained my point, then I'm just beating my head against a wall.

Why do you townread mastina?

I did read your point. That’s what I got out of it.

I townread Martina because of her claim and the fact she’s posting right now.

Scumstina would just watch the carnage. Scumstina is a huge lurker.

[OnTheMark]

Game reccomendations btw.
New Zelda or Mario Odyssey?
I am not sure which one is better since they are both kinda great.

~B

New Zelda

[OnTheMark]

Champion of the Parish is now voting Shining Dreamers.
Shining Dreamers currently has 2 votes against them.

VOTE: Shining Dreamers

Get back on Micc.

And Math I give up.
You're completely missing my point completely and if you're not going to read where I fully explained my point, then I'm just beating my head against a wall.

Why do you townread mastina?

I did read your point. That’s what I got out of it.

I townread Martina because of her claim and the fact she’s posting right now.

Scumstina would just watch the carnage. Scumstina is a huge lurker.

Not in Star Wars Mafia.

Link please?

[OnTheMark]

Rinse wash repeat pigeonhole argument. It isn’t what she claimed but that she claimed I don’t see scumstina doing.

I will read Star Wars later. I just don’t see anything manipulative from the hydra. In fact you (Alisae) and Mastina seem like one of the few without an agenda.

[OnTheMark]

Going to read most of this tomorrow but on readwalls I kinda just always ignore mastina’s

Like she as town has ones that make no sense (e.g. having a townread on a zero poster she never played with)

I will look at the rest of your case in the morning.

[OnTheMark]

I keep staring at this and I can’t understand it. I am trying I just don’t see your points. Things you say are obvious scum I am townreading. Instead of discussing the point when I am run down exhausted physically and emotionally I would rather make you a deal.

You can have my vote on any one player since our reads are so diverse. Up until the point the person you pick flips town.

Do you want it on Micc or Mastina? I understand none of your points and I won’t rather not just be called dumb or silly or make you feel like you’re hitting a brick wall.

[OnTheMark]

And if they do flip town you trade me for one day.

Not even until I am wrong, just one day.

[OnTheMark]

.....(other words)....

These are also notes/questions I created through reading this thread

1)

Most conflicted read personally, is

ReasonablyRational

. I feel like much of his earlier posts didn't do a lot, until he decided to respond to the pressure on him around

Page 30

. Can't tell if his AtE is AI.

Would love an RR flip that would explain a lot.

2)

I empathize with the fact that

OnTheMark

does not like being universally townread. 705. Can you give me your current reads and reasoning for the

Skybird

push? What's your view on

Bronya

?

Current reasoning is what is posted previously for Skybird. The recent posts still don’t have a read and Skybird is more focused on defense even after I said I would follow you guys with the vote.

And my feels about Bronya are “Look it’s a cute puppy!” Oh shit just remembered I never got my puppy {{Translation I don’t want to talk about Bronya at all. }}

Any significant conclusions you've reached so far?

-Cerb

I moved Chara, Mark, Venmar, you out of my lynch pool pretty early.

MC throws me off because beeboy seems way off playstyle/personality, and I’m not sure if it’s me only seeing him in discussion not actual games.

Alisae

looks more town than Taly but I’m weary of the entrance because Town read close friend, sheep their scum read and turn away interaction is a pretty convienent entrance.

I’ve got a huge pile of people to sort still and it starts with catching up on stuff I skimmed.

This post genuinely confuses me.

Alisae looks townier than me; but we're the same slot. Though, you say "but I'm weary of Town read close friend, sheep their scum read"

What does this even mean? Are you talking about my nonexistent reads until now or

Alisae's

and to WHO? Who's sheeping?

At least you're self-aware of skimming.

I believe it means Alisae has obvTowned where the slot was null before. Either that or people have different reads on multiple heads. Logically they understand the head is of one alignment but they’re still confused on it? Or were confused? Could use some clarifying though but I don’t think it is as bad as you’re saying

And about the mastina question I just woke up. Yawn will get around to it.

[OnTheMark]

Being an asset involves you being helpful and transparent. You are currently not helpful and, maybe I wouldn't say not-transparent, but the way you're presenting your ideas is obfuscated.

this is silly. stop. i've seen enough games with Titus and Math together to be tired of this, and you aren't even Titus.
badgering a townread to play differently is a waste of time. this is taking up so many pages.
it's been

constant

. both Kiana and Titus replying to the same things, and so many posts from Mark because they reply back.

Hence I am trying just ignoring them because I know of nothing else to do. I am sorry if I hurt you or made the game unfun I just don’t know how to fix it when dead conversations get revived.

So mastina read what’s yours?

[OnTheMark]

Chara
OnTheMark (CAVEAT: if I know his identity this is a much weaker townread because my ability to read him is shit and in actuality bee's raised points mirror many of my own concerns)
Iconeum
Bronya Zaychik
Tibor and Lumia

Baku and Munna

Dunnstral
SnarkySnowman
Almost50

Venmar


Micc
Taly


Reasonably Rational (CAVEAT: IS EFFECTIVELY LYNCH-IMMUNE BEFORE D3)
Maid Cafe
Skybird


(ABSENT: Creature deliberately removed.)

Final readslist.

Is this your hydra's list or just yours Mastina?

I meant 258. Sorry doing the system Almost50 wanted and swapped numbers in my head.

Yay I was due for a numbers fiasco /s

[OnTheMark]

I will get to the mastina town case after I take a nap.

[OnTheMark]

Actually while making my case,

I realized my original point for townreading Mastina was wrong.

Here she does the same as scum: viewtopic.php?p=9509169#p9509169

This makes me think mastina could be scum and I could be wrong.

VOTE: Shining Dreams

Would rather vote mastina over micc given the options.

[OnTheMark]

Venmar Have a little faith.

I have a hunch on something. Let me explore it.

If mastina is town we can push RR tomorrow. And if she isn’t town then win win.

[OnTheMark]

[OnTheMark]

and if you're expecting Snarky to be able to be active and do something like a request like that HOHOHOHOHOH I GOT NEWS FOR YOU

But yeah also I would like to give Venmar some mana so...

I would love some mana *sniff*

Some of mine I can’t get on my own and asking people to do it is so completely antitown. Like

[OnTheMark]

Hence why I think this game is meant to be vanilla at its root.

[OnTheMark]

Venmar needs to be the counterwagon to be able to get mana
its just that imo
and I'm doing that because I townread him lol.

L-2 just isn’t a feasible thing at this point imho

It would require scum participation on either Dreams or Venmar wagons.

I townread him but it kinda seems fruitless without scum helping?

[OnTheMark]

Yay memory fails. /s

[OnTheMark]

Hey Venmar question does it have to be greater than?

Because Alisae/Taly and I could make you second largest if we can tie the Micc wagon really fast?

[OnTheMark]

Oh it has to end that way blaaaaah damn. Was just gonna do a quick vote scoot.

[OnTheMark]

@Snarky: Have you lie detected anything yet? If not, there's something I want to claim and have you lie detect, as soon as I get the other heads approval.

Actually, I can copy you tomorrow if I'm alive.
I think its more useful to actually Lie Detect Venmar's claim imo.

There are reasons why claim confirmation today is a good thing.

Drixx responded to a text, says he'll be able to talk in about 5 hours.

-Cerb

@Venmar nope Drixx hasn’t.

And I was really hoping this wouldn’t become a mechanics show.

Because

reasons

I disagree with claim confirmation.

[OnTheMark]

@Snarky: Have you lie detected anything yet? If not, there's something I want to claim and have you lie detect, as soon as I get the other heads approval.

Actually, I can copy you tomorrow if I'm alive.
I think its more useful to actually Lie Detect Venmar's claim imo.

There are reasons why claim confirmation today is a good thing.

Drixx responded to a text, says he'll be able to talk in about 5 hours.

-Cerb

@Venmar nope Drixx hasn’t.

And I was really hoping this wouldn’t become a mechanics show.

Because

reasons

I disagree with claim confirmation.

OTM, every Varsoon game becomes a mechanics show, and only in the case of FFT was that the wrong thing to do(so far).

-Cerb

Djajajwiejsiakskajwiqba

You realize I was scum in that game and won without a single post because I manipulated the mechanics before posting even begun yeah? I used artwork to get inside everyone’s heads.

Like legit this feels like FFT all over again except I am town and I am trying to find the puppet master.

[OnTheMark]

@Snarky: Have you lie detected anything yet? If not, there's something I want to claim and have you lie detect, as soon as I get the other heads approval.

Actually, I can copy you tomorrow if I'm alive.
I think its more useful to actually Lie Detect Venmar's claim imo.

There are reasons why claim confirmation today is a good thing.

Drixx responded to a text, says he'll be able to talk in about 5 hours.

-Cerb

@Venmar nope Drixx hasn’t.

And I was really hoping this wouldn’t become a mechanics show.

Because

reasons

I disagree with claim confirmation.

OTM, every Varsoon game becomes a mechanics show, and only in the case of FFT was that the wrong thing to do(so far).

-Cerb

Protomen was a mechanics show?

He means FFT the anonymous PT game Varsoon ran.

[OnTheMark]

viewtopic.php?f=94&t=70103

For those that need context.

[OnTheMark]

I still do not know to this day who all of the alts were in that game.

*sniff* I figured out most and most of the ones invested outed themselves anyway. I think I had a bastard god recruit post thread longer than most people’s posts in the game. It was legit fun making Varsoon messages without any help from Varsoon although he vetoed some because too close to mod PMs

[OnTheMark]

@Cerb Why don’t you just meet me in the middle (and vote Shining Dreams)?
Oooooh Cerby why don’t you just meet me in the middle?

[OnTheMark]

And that Cerby is the problem.

Everyone is thinking about their own self interests for mana and can’t know the complete picture.

I can’t know who is truth telling and lying about powers but what I do know is from my perspective this much out is BAD!!!

[OnTheMark]

And for the record Skybird is still scum in my eyes. I am just cooperating the one place I can.

[OnTheMark]

If anyone can GIVE mana I would like some mana.

Seconded.

Great. Don’t give me mana. I don’t want it. At least not now if ever.

[OnTheMark]

Right now I am thinking mastina + Gamma + baku + Skybird
Or
Skybird+Bryona+RR+???

I just can’t get a hold of this current without a flip.

[OnTheMark]

I do wish I could talk with you privately Alisae’s
All the things I would say
All the things I would say
I have to send on a whisper and pray
That they get to your soul ehhhhhh

[OnTheMark]

Man that would be nice.

Too bad I can’t do that.

I just sometimes I wish I could ask people to leap of faith.

[OnTheMark]

Can we at least have a last reads from Phos?

I mean I can’t convince someone to stay if they aren’t having fun but if Phos believes that at least point us where you think is right?

[OnTheMark]

Sure, lynch Purple Heart.

Okay...Let’s talk about that a minute.

They are one of my top town reads at the moment.

Ignoring that you both scumread each other what attempts at manipulation has Alisae done?

[OnTheMark]

Because they are afraid we will be onto them if we're allowed to live past D1 and use our combined strengths.

Okay that’s not what I am looking for, but let’s talk about this some more:

What exactly are you seeing as fear tactics?
And why would Alisae push Micc the entire time if e was afraid of you?
Wouldn’t e just nightkill you?

Furthermore e and eis team would have to be manipulating people in some way. Where would you see that?

[OnTheMark]

And none yet. But they will as soon as we're gone, cos they knows that one of us can cut through her lies like toilet paper. With us gone, they'll be free to manipulate the rest of you, basically. You'll see.

If e isn’t manipulating us and letting us lynch who we want then surely there must be some reason for your lynch other than e? But if e is manipulating us where is it?

Like I feel like you are fearmongering not explaining.

[OnTheMark]

Crazy thought: Mastina Skybird Alisae RR?

[OnTheMark]

@PurpleHeart/Shining Dreams
Assumed the other of you is a mod confirmed IC.
How would your reads change? And saying bastard game is

not

an option.

[OnTheMark]

So it’s Yume+RR throw out Alisae. That’s where my head is at right now.

[OnTheMark]

Also, nobody has said anything about any PT's existing. I'm pretty sure some will exist at some point, maybe not now, but yeah. Your fear of scum brainwashing via PT's has no basis in reality as far as anyone knows.

-Cerb

We're 90% sure that at least five exist at this time. This isn't a fact, but yeah.....

What makes you say that?

I am rather doubtful.

[OnTheMark]

I mean no one has posted a single PT granting spell so like???

[OnTheMark]

Shit..Mastina/Yume Bronya RR Skybird?

[OnTheMark]

Main reason for theory: all of them seem to be hunting a neighborizer or a vig except Skybird.

[OnTheMark]

My partner and I have a color PT. It's a large neighborhood. She has a theory that four more PTs exist for each color.

Interesting. Who is in it?

[OnTheMark]

My main thought process being if all of one color are in it, there is likely at least one scum in that pool.

[OnTheMark]

My partner and I have a color PT. It's a large neighborhood. She has a theory that four more PTs exist for each color.

Interesting. Who is in it?

Don't answer this pls.

Why shouldn’t she?

If it has all of one color and likely has a scum in it, then we are only sharing information with town.

[OnTheMark]

quick reminder to everyone that i need to be 2nd largest wagon each day to be useful :/

vote: Venmar

This post bugs me. Why do you think you have to use a spell/ability to be useful?

Skybird also bugs me because they call out Venmar for thinking they have to have an ability to be useful but are wholly inconsistent when Maid Cafe does antitoen bullshit that we’re still not clear on what for mana.

This means if Skybird is scum Ico is town and Maid might be scum.

And of course Venmar would be town in that case.

Why would Ico be town in that case? He's not mentioned there.

It gets called out later but mainly it’s how Venmar is poked by Ico.

[OnTheMark]

My partner and I have a color PT. It's a large neighborhood. She has a theory that four more PTs exist for each color.

Interesting. Who is in it?

Don't answer this pls.

Why not?

Also math it's a upick hood comp is nai if hoods are based on flavour

Also bee opinion on mastina please

It’s nai based on flavor yeah but depending upon the size can be illuminating.

For example assume 4 scum 13 town
Then the more people you add the more likely scum is in it based on sheer probability.

[OnTheMark]

Yes. If X people are in the hood then the odds of it being an all town hood are
Assuming four scum
13!/X! * (1/17)^X

Necessarily as X grows the odds of scum being in the hood necessarily increase.

[OnTheMark]

If four people are in the hood then odds of all town hood are right around 20%.

[OnTheMark]

I'm not saying it's all town
What I am saying is hood comp should not dictate alignments and how you scumhunt

And I disagree and I don’t want to receive any more unwarranted “coaching”

If a given number of people exist in a PT there are odds that come into play. They aren’t a driving factor but they are A factor.

[OnTheMark]

I am extracting information from a scumread.
Information the slot has to tell the truth on.

[OnTheMark]

It’s not a matter of hood design.

It’s combinatorics.

Assume four scum.
Give me four random people. 80% odds one of them is scum.

[OnTheMark]

If there is one hood for each color, and both PH and myself aren't in hoods, then it means the hood membership isn't everywhere with that color.

More likely there is only a hood or two for colors with communal focuses, namely white and green.

-Cerb

What makes you think you and PH share a color?

[OnTheMark]

If there is one hood for each color, and both PH and myself aren't in hoods, then it means the hood membership isn't everywhere with that color.

More likely there is only a hood or two for colors with communal focuses, namely white and green.

-Cerb

What makes you think you and PH share a color?

Question rescinded misread.

[OnTheMark]

Mastina/Yume really needs to just answer the question or refuse to or Maid Cafe needs to explain why not to answer the question.

[OnTheMark]

Why shouldn’t she?

If it has all of one color and likely has a scum in it, then we are only sharing information with town.

I mean your just describing chance atm, roles don't pertain to alignment even if there probably is scum in a pool of 3-6 people.
People in the hood have just as high odds of being scum then anyone else so outing it is pointless.


~B

You mean outing it is pointful.

If scum know something why deny it to town?

[OnTheMark]

Why shouldn’t she?

If it has all of one color and likely has a scum in it, then we are only sharing information with town.

I mean your just describing chance atm, roles don't pertain to alignment even if there probably is scum in a pool of 3-6 people.
People in the hood have just as high odds of being scum then anyone else so outing it is pointless.


~B

we want the hood outed not because we think scum exist in it.
We want it outed because we want to know who is in the hood and scum if they ARE in the hood already know who is in it.

Yeah that.

[OnTheMark]

Okay Beeboy

Let’s assume there are more than three people in the hood. You mastina and random and this other group of players. For sake of argument I will call them silent hood people.
Let’s assume random is scum.

Random would tell the scumbuddies who the silent people are yes?

[OnTheMark]

It’s already out there. Before mastina outed it and you confirmed its existence that question makes sense.

However now it’s more about damage control and level footing.

Even so, I will answer your question despite the completely ridiculous shift of burden of proof.

Now for shits and giggles assume it is just you Mastina/Yume and random.

Odds are roughly 33% the three of you would be town.

Now let’s take a look at how little activity there has been for the three of you despite both you and the Mastina/Yume hydra being the most active posters. There has been almost no “heat” for you in that direction. It makes it look as if you have no interest in sorting the slot later on. Now that we know that there is a hood people can have a chance to reset given this.

Considering while the three of you have had heat there has been heat incoming from multiple directions suggesting that whoever is in the hood either has a general distaste for or hates hoods or fears the scum. Some semblance of a lack of control.

By saying who is in it the group can reassess and figure stuff out accordingly and see if any one pushed exclusively the hood or had some nefarious purpose.

[OnTheMark]

From your statement it seems you believe Mastina is town. To me it looks like flail. However based on there being a hood and Mastina’s theory it does merit a second look. However asking your townie brethren to do so with their hands tied is kinda crap.

[OnTheMark]

In other words, if you believe Mastina/Yume is town, and I do get that general impression then we need to figure out who is championing the mislynch. I don’t want a kneejerk response “it has to be Alisae/Taly”. We need to slowly figure that out if mastina is town. There is no omg the world is ending scenario here. Just bring town what scum likely already has.

[OnTheMark]

I mean why is Random more likely to be scum then town in this hypothetical situation if Mastina and I are town?
Random always has a 25% of being scum regardless of anyone elses alignment in the hood.

~B

Actually no. The Monty shall problem occurs and it isn’t 25% even without that.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Hall_problem

Let’s make some key assumptions.
Four scum.
Then each player has a 4/17 chance of randing scum. Roughly 23.5%

Now assume you take a random subset of 4 people. Then eliminate two of those people as potential scum.

This means the odds dramatically go up for the remaining two. I don’t want to get too number crunching as eyes glaze over but the odds of scum being in the hood is astronomically high.

[OnTheMark]

So much to the point if the three of you do not out the fourth member as implied I would have no problem suggesting chain lynching.

[OnTheMark]

Furthermore Random + Titus/Kiana + Skybird + RR becomes a potential team as anytime I suggested any of them they call me a bad player. If you seriously believe that Mastina is town help me help her by giving everyone what they need to work with.

[OnTheMark]

Did you not get your Role PMs from the moderator?

Was role distribution not random? I fail to see where it falls apart?

Furthermore you are still deflecting from what the question both Alisae and myself have asked whom you townread. Scum know who this fourth member is.

[OnTheMark]

Because a pool of 3 players that contains 2 town and 1 scum and a random pool of 3 players are not comparable.

~B

I mean why is Random more likely to be scum then town in this hypothetical situation if Mastina and I are town?
Random always has a 25% of being scum regardless of anyone elses alignment in the hood.

~B

A> You said it’s four not three here.
B> The four players in the hood all got their role PMs before pregame and had to confirm.
C> Monty Hall if you won’t read it I won’t go around in circles I will just assume you are the scum and trying to get me to spam.