Team Mafia 2018: Game 3 - Random GIFs Game Over

[DeasVail]

You’re all beautiful people.

[DeasVail]

I am having a very crazy day at work when usually I have quite a bit of free time so that’s been a bit of a bummer, but I will be here to hopefully inject a bit of life into this game this afternoon!

I am also town, but hey I am not so sure about the beautiful part.

[DeasVail]

Keychain, could you please give a quick tl;dr of why you think xyzzy is scum? From a very quick glance at your ISO, I could not find anything obvious.

Radja, I think you're town but I've noticed you fairly strongly thought chesskid was scum, so we probably should talk! Also hi!

Bins! In my haphazard reading of select posts of the game I noticed somewhere that you might think Radja is scum. If so, what makes you think that?

[DeasVail]

I can agree with a lot of that and I guess I particularly found the reasoning for suspecting Elena pretty questionable when I went through his ISO. There are also a few posts from Aeronaut that I find myself disliking (454, the comments on meta in 459, for example)

Ideally I'd like more from the slot before proclaiming a strong read there though. There's always a difference between obtaining reads by looking back on the game, and obtaining them from at least semi-real time interactions.

I've also realised that it's not all that long before deadline and I'd really like to have a better handle on the game by then than I do currently (there are still a couple of players who I've barely read through, for example!), so I'll try to get a move on. Today was unfortunately not a great day for that, but I'll be back in the morning.

[DeasVail]

On Archwing/UC Voyager:

The UC Voyager ISO is mostly unremarkable to me. 1324 is a bit ehhhh I guess, but I haven't worked out exactly what I think of it yet. I'm leaning towards the focus on LLD here being scummy, as if he felt the need to say something about the LLD wagon, or else he'd be ignoring it. But I'm also now spending a lot of time going back and forth on this one post and so right now I'm going to stop.

When reading Archwing, I find the team-chat related comments quite interesting. In 2962. I think Arch is probably being truthful about this regardless of alignment, but I actually think that this much more closely describes how a team mafia team would respond to a scumslot rather than a townslot. I could be wrong, but my impression is that this has been a fairly lurky game and so UC Voyager seemed(?) to be skating by fairly easily on low activity. So his team would not feel any need to do anything more pro-active than "tell him to do stuff" if he were scum. However, I feel like there would be a more pressing need to influence the game state and ~try to lynch scum!~ as town.

A lot of the provided team-reads feel a bit forced also, as if a requirement in response to being pressured to provide them, rather than "hey this is what me and my team think should happen!" or "hey he hasn't been reading the game, just listen to what I say". Both of these I think would be town responses. Instead there seems this effort to appease without actually doing it very well...

I also don't like the waffling on Bulba in 3491 and 3494, but the team contribution posts more recently are better than earlier on. (e.g. 3511 is not bad)

----

I have not seen Archwing mentioned recently as a potential lynch. Is there a reason for this/something obvious that I'm missing?

[DeasVail]

Where my reads are sitting at right now:

Town - Mina, Radja, Keychain

Unsorted - Bins, Dunker, Bulba (Katsuki has mentioned thinking that Bins is town, but I'd like to take a proper look at her myself before placing her)

Scummy- Xyzzy, Archwing

This is all pretty rough and based on pretty surface-level reading so they are liable to change!

[DeasVail]

Rory!!!!

[DeasVail]

Keychain, could you please give a quick tl;dr of why you think xyzzy is scum? From a very quick glance at your ISO, I could not find anything obvious.

Radja, I think you're town but I've noticed you fairly strongly thought chesskid was scum, so we probably should talk! Also hi!

Bins! In my haphazard reading of select posts of the game I noticed somewhere that you might think Radja is scum. If so, what makes you think that?

omg yes! DV!!! I don't think we've ever played mafia together.

Anyway, your predecessor had a massive scumread on me. What makes you townread me? How much of this game have you read?

I do have a strong scumread on your slot, but I'm always available for a chat.

Hey! It's true that we haven't played actual mafia together (and honestly you and Mina being here was the main reason I replaced in but I love everyone else here too I promise), and I'm pretty damn excited because I didn't think I was going to get to play in team mafia this year and I think that you and Mina are both probably town here so I'm all set to whambam this game together (with the occasional amount of paranoia about your alignments blah blah which I'll probably ignore). I know that my alignment is probably the most in question here but I'll work on it!

As for my townread on you, you were someone I actually skimmed through before I'd even officially joined the game, but I thought there were many moments throughout the game where your frustration felt super genuine and very unlikely to be faked. 2792 is a very good example of this in my opinion. There you seem seriously bummed that you've put work into something that is just getting ignored, while I feel scum would feel fine as long as they weren't being suspected for it.

All the fuck you stuff is pretty out of character (based on my experience at least), but imo that's even more reason to townread it because it seems very much driven by things that wouldn't bother scum.

There were other things I liked but those were the main things that stood out.

@DV Can you also tell me why chesskid said he scumread us for on discord? And why you disagree with that? And can you tell me if Katsuki has some kind of read on me?

So we don't have a discord and I actually haven't read through the private topic chat for my team yet, but the vibe I'm getting is that most of them stopped following the game closely a while ago. I think Katsuki only has reads on Mina and Bins, at least as far as what he's told me so far.

I also don't really care what Chesskid thought to be completely honest. :/ But if you think I should scumread you based on anything he said, you're free to argue with me I guess?

[DeasVail]

Okay maybe that was a bit harsh, but I would probably trust my read of you over Chesskid's read of you.

And as far as how much of the game I've read, it's been pretty selective so it's hard to say. I've mostly started with people I know and then moved to people I know less and less well. I haven't done much chronological reading except for key points of the game.

[DeasVail]

Xyzzy, I agree with Mina in that I need more. Seriously, I will very happily lynch you today as things stand. Does that bother you?

[DeasVail]

hi DV please be town

catch up later


but i sort of dropped the Radja scumread

Hi! Thanks for answering.

[DeasVail]

DeasVail, Radja already covered a couple of questions I wanted to ask, but what I'd like to know is if your vote would be on Archwing if you had to choose between him and xyzzy. Your posts seem to imply as much.

(Also, omg, hi!!!!)

A very self-indulgent wallpost coming up--unless I lose focus in the middle since I'm out of practice, in which case a bunch of spamposts with fragmented thoughts coming up!

Hey!!!

I don’t actually know where my vote would be if I had to choose between them. Xyzzy seems to be a more popular option but then my pathological need to be different would perhaps lean me in the archwing direction. My reading of the game has mostly been short snippets in between work and other life stuff to the point where I don’t really feel like my head is in the game, but I plan to have a good sit down and calibration of thoughts sometime soon.

Also, I liked your wall.

[DeasVail]

Also, no need to resist your fanfic urges imo.

The sky was a blend of warm pinks and plum purples as Mina sauntered home one lazy afternoon. It was beautiful, without a doubt, but Mina was sure that the previous day's sunset was no less spectacular. Nonetheless, there was something different about this day. The air held the taste of salty shorelines and the sweet smell of pine trees. Mina's feet began to drag along the cobblestone path, as if not quite ready for the journey home to end. As she turned into a short alleyway she was met with a sharp, sudden gust of wind, her skin tingling with a sense of anticipation, despite having taken this route many times before.

A flurry of footsteps, the swish of a cloak,

(seems dramatic I guess)

the warmth of coarse breathing against her cheek.

"I am DeasVail, Prince of the faraway land of Parumbtu. But in order to gain the throne I need to uhhh send my eldest brother on a holiday that he won't want to come back from! Yes, that's right! And for this I need uhhh money! Yes! Will you help me?"

"uhhhh"

"Oh and by the way, I will also require.... a princess "

An elderly man turned into the alleyway and the mysterious man disappeared, leaving only a note containing bank details as proof that this was not all a dream.

Oh and I guess reads and stuff are important too.

Regarding Bins, I'm not sure, but I don't feel as comfortable placing her as scum as with xyzzy or archwing. There are posts like 3330 which feel over the top for scum, but then stuff like 3227 mentions too many scumreads, also with no real apparent concern about following up on these scumreads. It could also all just be a scum attempt to act as if Elena/T-Bone flipping town was a surprise when they knew it all along, but as much as I'm typing about this, I'm not sure how convinced I am about it. Especially given that it would imply some real intentional effort going into Bins' play when the rest of her play doesn't really show evidence of that. I think I'm talking myself into a townread but I would say I still haven't read Bins properly. But I doubt I'd promote lynching her today, at the very least.

I'm reading Bulbazak but not able to glean anything alignment-relevant either way and I think that's my fault at this point. I will get to it in the morning.

I would like to say though that I am concerned about the Archwing slot and I'm concerned about the writing off of UC that seems to have happened. I have seen UC as scum, and yeah he wasn't great at it in that game, but I didn't see anything from him here that I'd say can't from scum, and there are things that as mentioned, make me feel it is perhaps more likely. And as I vaguely alluded to before if anyone has a townread I'd appreciate it being mentioned/explained. Thanks Mina for sharing your thoughts btw. I'm still waiting on more from xyzzy and am in two minds about how worried to be about his popularity as a lynch target (because sometimes the person that everybody wants to lynch is actually scum! :O ) but I do want to consider all the options to the extent that I can with limited time (I am aware that my slow catch up isn't really helping matters!)

[DeasVail]

uhh I meant that to be the open up box spoiler damn. I really need to go to bed.

[DeasVail]

Deas, what do you need from me to sort my slot?

At this stage, it's mostly my own lack of feeling properly caught up on the game, but this probably going to be the case for a while due to the late replace in, so I'll have to get used to that.

I would like to say though, that your posting over the last few (real-life) days gives the impression that you're quite comfortable with the game state currently. You've mentioned that the Xyzzy vote is a sheep of Titus. How confident are you feeling in that?

I would like to say though that I am concerned about the Archwing slot and I'm concerned about the writing off of UC that seems to have happened. I have seen UC as scum, and yeah he wasn't great at it in that game, but I didn't see anything from him here that I'd say can't from scum, and there are things that as mentioned, make me feel it is perhaps more likely. And as I vaguely alluded to before if anyone has a townread I'd appreciate it being mentioned/explained. Thanks Mina for sharing your thoughts btw. I'm still waiting on more from xyzzy and am in two minds about how worried to be about his popularity as a lynch target (because sometimes the person that everybody wants to lynch is actually scum! :O ) but I do want to consider all the options to the extent that I can with limited time (I am aware that my slow catch up isn't really helping matters!)

I have 0 experience with UCV but I'm taking my teams advice on that slot. I also haven't really seen anything out of Archwing that makes me question that read.

I do worry about this as reasoning for a read. I think it's much easier as scum to avoid attracting attention/suspicion than it is to do things that attract townreads.

----

I've had a re-look at Bins and am happy with having her as town for now pending a review later.

Regarding Bulbazak, I like the point made in 3541 about xyzzy and would be keen to see them respond to that. I also like his recent response to the town bloc discussions that were surfacing before I replaced in. I find that it's really easy for scum to get super awkward around the formation of town blocs, and Aeronaut's response to people being town-read for meta reasons earlier on in the game is the kind of reaction I'd expect from scum.

3039 is just a weird post for scum to make, and I struggle to even see how it would end up happening as an intentional move to look town. Because the thought process that requires that is kind of super convoluted.

Other than that, the other stuff is looking ~generally good~ without making me convinced of town, but I'm not willing to consider a lynch there right now, for example.

From Bulbazak though, I would like an update on the Archwing read, as I've noticed that you were previously maybe-scumreading him.

----

Lastly, Dunkerdoodles. A lot of his posting has the vibe of being very open and honest about not really knowing where his reads are at in a way that makes me lean towards town for reasons that I can't properly explain. But he's not Radja or Mina-level town for me, and stuff like 3532 without actually doing much to change that makes me :/

Questions for Dunkerdoodles:
- I noticed that you had a scumread on Bins earlier. Do you still have this read? What are your thoughts on most of the players seeming uninterested in lynching her?

[DeasVail]

My reads are currently looking something like:

Mina, Radja
[Gap]
Keychain
[Gap]
Dunkerdoodle, Bulbazak, Bins
[LOTS OF SPACE]
Archwing, Xyzzy

I'm leaning towards lynching Xyzzy currently because they are probably just scum, but I am still keen to hear more.

[DeasVail]

Deas, sheep wants you to know he says hi. Also, he says you are 1304i433% town, as you are fitting your town meta to a t here, as in your hydra with him.

I say hi back! I haven’t hydra’d with him before though. Is he talking about the MU game where I hydra’d with Regfan?

[DeasVail]

This would be partly due to the fact that I’ve only just replaced in and so am less influenced by what happened beforehand, but I really haven’t felt much of a push from you to have Bins lynched, nor do you appear all that bothered by the fact that no one is interested. There could be an element of “giving up” here, sure and I’d understand that, but you saying that the game is boring doesn’t really fit with someone who feels defeated by no one listening to their reads.

[DeasVail]

VOTE: Archwing

I'm pretty sure this is the lynch I'm going to be pushing for today.

In 3572, Archwing says that he's being pretty passive and not re-reading. This is fine and totally okay.

However, in the same post he also states that "he's building off present information". And I don't see any real initiative or drive from his posting.

And this is why I want to lynch him.

The frequency of his posting is such that he is obviously around and reading the game. He diligently responds to questions that are asked of him. But I cannot shake the overwhelming pressure that he's just sitting here.... waiting for other people to make the first move.... waiting for other people to make stuff happen.

Sure, he could be very confident in his vote on Xyzzy, but I'm not incredibly convinced of that. As recently as 3294, Archwing says that he does not have a read on Xyzzy, while Creature has him as null/town. Between then and the sheep of titus, I don't see any sign of the read progressing, and I also don't see any effort to actually sort that read. It's as if voting xyzzy became the convenient thing at the time, thus prompting the decision. In 3511, Arch says he plans to talk to Creature about the Xyzzy read, but again, there is no sign of this having happened.

If he's not confident in his vote on Xyzzy, then there's really not much sign of him doing anything to further his confidence in the game, despite the fact that he is very much here and active and around.

I think Archwing is scum going with the flow and not attracting attention and the worst part is that it's working. I don't know what this would mean for Xyzzy's alignment, and if it comes down to it, I will lynch Xyzzy today, but I am seriously worried about a world where Archwing is scum and Xyzzy is town, a world that I think is reasonably likely.

[DeasVail]

What do you think of the actual reasoning though?

[DeasVail]

Because I think he is scum, and I would feel more confident in an Archwing lynch than a xyzzy lynch at this point. The fact that a lot of people here are stating something along the lines of “a xyzzy lynch works I guess” while not really that strongly suspecting xyzzy or doing much to work things out beyond that kind of gives me cold feet when it comes to lynching xyzzy.

[DeasVail]

but you agree we can't leave xyzzy at lylo right?

may as well lynch him now then

As things currently stand, they’re my second strongest suspect for scum, but again, only second strongest. I think there is a chance that they are actually town, and if this is the case, then that may become more apparent later on, who knows? But it’s for this reason that xyzzy is not my preferred lynch right now.

If I can’t get any support for an Archwing lynch then I will vote for xyzzy. Regardless, if we continue to get as little out of xyzzy as we are currently getting, then I agree that we can’t leave them around. But I’m still keen to consider all the options.

[DeasVail]

Questions for Dunkerdoodles:
- I noticed that you had a scumread on Bins earlier. Do you still have this read? What are your thoughts on most of the players seeming uninterested in lynching her?

yes i do, i mentioned it earlier.

i've been pushing for her lynch for a while, i guess everyone either townreads her or would rather push someone else like xyzzy, but really im not sure.

This would be partly due to the fact that I’ve only just replaced in and so am less influenced by what happened beforehand, but I really haven’t felt much of a push from you to have Bins lynched, nor do you appear all that bothered by the fact that no one is interested. There could be an element of “giving up” here, sure and I’d understand that, but you saying that the game is boring doesn’t really fit with someone who feels defeated by no one listening to their reads.

it's just factually incorrect that Dunkerdoodles hasn't been trying to push a Bins lynch. like initially he was townreading her but he laid out a pretty clear case for why Bins is scum in 2477 and has brought up the fact that he believes she's a good target for a lynch repeatedly. when I was rereading Dunkerdoodles' iso for this, I got really good vibes from him.

Gamma Emerald brought up in my team PT that Mina as scum makes zero sense given how she's responded to me -- I'm such an easy lynch target right now, so it really doesn't make sense for scum to go easy on me.

I was having a hard time reading Archwing as scum at first but one thing that stands out in his iso that seems not great to me is that a lot of his interaction with other players has just been asking them for lynch pools, and that feels less like town trying to put together info about what everyone wants and more like scum trying to look active and involved without actually having to really engage with anyone. Archwing as scum is another one of the things I'm pulling from my team PT -- it doesn't really feel right just going by my gut, but when I read his iso from the perspective of "which of these posts might indicate that he's scum" rather than just "do these posts make me think he's scum" that repeated line of questioning stands out. also he repeatedly just asks other players to make town cases on other players, and while that's a little bit more in the direction of trying to engage with other players, I feel like an actual town player would be doing that analysis themself rather than just asking someone else to do it

Thanks for the clarification, xyzzy.

[DeasVail]

but he could still be scum without xyzzy being scum

anyways we're probably lynching xyzzy anyways

Nope. Not interested in Xyzzy anymore. Dunker saying that he's not comfortable with Xyzzy as scum, then attacking those players who question the read, followed by "Well, that reason for scumreading DV that I said is not the reason I'm scumreading him, but he still

could be

scum whether Xyzzy flips scum or not. But Xyzzy is the lynch today. I'll just be over here off the wagon expressing interest in it though. See ya!". Yeah, this whole thing puts a sour taste in my mouth.

I’m still at work and will say more when I get home but I did also notice this. I’m not sure if it actually comes from scum though.

[DeasVail]

You should vote for Archwing!

@bulbazak but also @others too!

[DeasVail]

I don't have any previous experience with Dunker, but I think that his recent approach to me is a pretty weird one to take as scum? Even if xyzzy is scum, it's just drawing attention to himself when I'm pretty sure scum-dunker would know he can't lynch me. If xyzzy is town, then why not just let xyzzy die instead of pushing a half-hearted attack on me?

[DeasVail]

You should vote for Archwing!

[DeasVail]

Serious talk though. I know that people found the case forced or whatever (I'm going to go ahead and blame Regfan's influence), but I think my reasons are pretty solid and it is actually something that I've grown to feel stronger and stronger about. Xyzzy could be scum and it's by no means the worst lynch, but lynching them is also kind of boring.

Do something exciting guys!

[DeasVail]

If an Archwing wagon picks up I’ll switch but who is Arch scum with?

I don’t think xyzzy is completely ruled out but they probably wouldn’t be my first guess. I could see it being someone I may have given a townread too easily like Bulba or even you. But I haven’t done much reading in search of an Archwing partner yet.

[DeasVail]

If an Archwing wagon picks up I’ll switch but who is Arch scum with?

Uh...why do you want to switch from xyzzy to Archwing, Bins?

only if Xzzyz doesn’t happen
we’re close to DL

These are sort of different things.

[DeasVail]

No. Fuck you. This one isn't creative's game. If creature decides to throw in some input. I am happy to share it, but you will not force me to only talk about what creature says and thinks. Okay.

Now let me fucking scum hunt.

Also. What about mulch and sheep? Do they not matter.

Right now, I want to search for my own reads.

Hey, DeasVail. You're saying you haven't seen anything from UCV he couldn't do as scum? This post as well?

Also, just quoting these so it's easier for me to read them over and check for consistency:

Spoiler: Bunch of UCV/AW's team reads

mulch is 100% sure skirt skirt is scum. like. he is screaming at me

VOTE: skirt

mulch is 100% sure skirt skirt is scum. like. he is screaming at me

VOTE: skirt

ok the rest of my team also thinks he i scum for the most part.
like

mulch 100%
creature 99%
sheep 80%
me and quick dont know

ok


sheep says dino is meta town


mulch says to fuck off creature who is asleep right now because they live in Brazil. and have multiple other games to attend to

though team says he is townie. i slightly disagree. i have only played with him a few times, so

i could be wrong though

.

You completed a single town game with me. A geriatric. Micro. In which I replaced in after early-phase D1.

I don't know how you expect me to not be aggressive if you literally post and comment on other people while openly ignoring my questions.

What I'm asking is this: The thoughts that you said Creature had. Did they trickle in as the thread expanded? That is, WHEN did he give you those reads? Had he been reading the game as I requested of him BEFORE I had you ask him what he was thinking?

he had given them that day. i will have to ask what changes


why are you only caring about creatures reads?

I'm not asking you to have Creature read the thread literally this second.

I'm asking you when he has provided input in the past, and if he has been reading this thread.

I've twice requested specifically him to be reading this game.

) Elena is most likely to choose scum from her team 2) eddie succesfully pocketed someone 3) Mathdino's reads seem pretty good 4) We want eddie cane pushed but I'm not 99% 5) Keychain was scummy but then he thinks he must be misreading them 6) LLD is scummy 7) Early game called LLD, skirt skirt, keychain 8) bulba is town 9) almost50 is town cause playing like open 707 10) Bins is town 11) Dunkerdoodles feels town
all posted by creature



here

Hey Archwing, I'd like a paraphrase on all the notes creature has ever made about this game, with dates (no timestamps)

You're allowed to paraphrase things, just not quote, copy or paste

Not gonna let me ease into it, eh? fine.

k so, game started on 20th of Jan.
on 22nd creature wanted UCV to push LLD and skirt skirt.
early town reads on dunker bins and a50.
keychain looks bad, thus he makes the first scum team guess of {lld, skirt, keychain}
later (still 22nd) says must be reading keychain wrong.
keeps saying he wants eddie cane pushed.
thinks elena would most likely choose scum from her team
on 23rd, says skirt hasn't done enough for him to 180 flip read him
25th says {elena LLD transcend}
also thinks TBone doesn't pick scum and then lurk 'til lynched.
29th thinks bins being dino's top lynch is wtffff
thinks NSG and dino are the most likely people on your team to pick scum.
on the first of feb, thought about pushing chess for scum, then retracted and said stay on havingfitz.
6th of feb, thinks chess + CDB scum. keychain town, don't push the wagon.
A50's post 2053 has a solid case on chesskid scum.
and finally, CDB still looks bad.

Regarding the first post you quoted, I played with UCV in Open 699 (viewtopic.php?f=51&t=73781) and while he was probably fairly obvious scum there, he spouted a lot of AtE type stuff, so that sort of post is not something I see as incompatible with his scum play.

Regarding the team reads, I think that, especially early on, it’s reasonable to expect that a scum member’s team would be excited and keen on providing fake thoughts for their team member to use. I know that when I was scum in the last TM I specifically asked my team members to provide anything they were able to. And in the game I played with UCV he was super schemey in the scumchat, so it would make sense to me.

[DeasVail]

UCV's AtE here reminds me more of Radja flipping out over his case being ignored than LLD trying to make people bad about lynching her (which is more UCV's ATE in the scum game).

I don't want to fall into the trap of "UCV has a wildly different playstyle in this one game where he's scum, so he's town here!" but he's just a lot more natural here (his posts in the other game were a lot more theatrical and fake-helpful and full of exclamation marks, and Patrick agreed with me). And I know it's technically possible for team reads to be faked, but they feel organic. My only real doubt is that UCV's LLD thoughts sucked.

That game has definitely convinced me I should focus on chesskid's meta, though, because I have zero hope of catching you! :/ (Although you're warmer and fuzzier here.)

I see what you mean here and it's possible I'm trying too hard to explain away things that could point to town-Archwing to justify my scumread. I still find Archwing's play around the time of the replacements to fit very well with what I would expect from scum, but at this point I'm okay with day ending and revisiting this read later on.

[DeasVail]

I wasn’t able to get to this today, but I’m planning on looking back over things over the next couple of days.

[DeasVail]

Hey hey hey Bins, to the best of your ability, I'd like a brief rundown of your thought process on Radja from mid-late Day 3 when you dropped the scumread to now where you seem to have him as your maybe sort of top scumread.

[DeasVail]

Bulba, there are some things I am concerned about!

In 3625 (and then 3628 you have a pretty strong reaction to Dunker's approach to the xyzzy wagon in that you seemingly lose interest in lynching xyzzy altogether. It seemed a bit OTT to me at the time, but I could mostly relate to it. I was pretty concerned about the general "I think someone else is scum but xyzzy is the lynch I guesssss" approach taken by a lot of people in the game as well. But I've looked again over your late Day 3 posts and I'm worried. In 3632, you mention not wanting to lynch xyzzy but it's become a weaker stance, and you mention the possibility of Titus/other person talking you out of it, which is a bit ?.

But the main thing I'm worried about it is the lack of attempt to really push anything else. You've been around long enough to know that when people have seemingly settled on a lynch, it will take a strong push to change it. I can only think of how we had similar attitudes to the xyzzy lynch, but completely different approaches, and I worry that you are scum who wanted to act like you didn't like the xyzzy lynch for brownie points (which would have worked given Mina's response to it), while not doing anything that would actually give the lynch a chance at changing.

[DeasVail]

(I don't intend that gif to look as mean as it does, but I would like a response to this and couldn't think of anything better than "please explain", and then I thought of Pauline Hanson, and now I realise that with none of you being Australian it probably wouldn't even be funny to anyone!)

[DeasVail]

Also Archwing, you seem a lot more actively involved in the short time that it's been Day 4 than you were following my replace in on Day 3. What's up?

[DeasVail]

Also Dunker, I would like a brief but punchy answer to this question:

Why am I scum?

[DeasVail]

I have more thoughts but there are still some things I need to look into and what Keychain has raised in the above is something I hadn’t considered (as I wasn’t really strongly considering either of Radja or Bins as scum). I can see why T-Bone and Mima could have been killed regardless of their reads, but was there a good reason for the Almost50 kill apart from his reads? I have no idea personally.

[DeasVail]

No idea why A50 was killed.

And Keychain, I agree with Radja/DV. But I think Radja should go first, only because DV-slot has so much nonsense around it that should make it town.


And DV, I flipped on Radja because I was doing ISOs and a lot of Radja had said was town. But it’s all fakeable. I think a team of Reck, Shea, etc. are totally capable in helping Radja fake reads and fake discord logs. He used Recks reads to avoid LLD-wagon, for example. He’s not really done anything town beyond what he’s capable of scum.

This is sort of opposite of Chesskid. His “LLD wagon is lazy” seems like what I was doing with LLD. Smocaine was vote parking LLD, but I mean I’ve played with scum buddies that death tunneled me lazily. It’s just less likely, I think.

What makes you think that Radja could fake 2790 for example?

But it's not just that. I also don't at all understand the scum-motivation for Radja to fake it. At least in my experience, a lot of Radja's frustrating posting here is quite out of character for him. And I'm sure he knows this, so why would he do it as scum when it would be most likely to just set off alarm bells?

I am genuinely inquiring about this here, as I do have moments of paranoia here and there, but I find it difficult to convert my mind to a Radja-scum world.

[DeasVail]

Seriously Bins can be scum just for that last post alone. She's just flip flopping on reads when it's convenient.

I'm fine getting lynched today if you're lynching Bins/DV the next 2 days.

I won't be around much today I'm afraid.

Curious question for when you get the chance, but how confident are you in your reads on me/Bins (particularly the read on me)?

[DeasVail]

Bulba's answer is.... a lot better than I was expecting. And it leaves me much more unsure on the super hipster Arch/Bulba theory that I was beginning to entertain.

Maybe Arch/Bins? Does anything else make sense? I'm not sure. I don't even feel that passionate about Arch-scum at the moment following my conversation with Mina Day 3, so I'm in a bit of a mess reads-wise at the moment.

Mostly just talking to myself here. No answers required really.

PEdit: No worries mate. I hope things are okay. And hope you have a good day at work!

[DeasVail]

No idea why A50 was killed.

And Keychain, I agree with Radja/DV. But I think Radja should go first, only because DV-slot has so much nonsense around it that should make it town.


And DV, I flipped on Radja because I was doing ISOs and a lot of Radja had said was town. But it’s all fakeable. I think a team of Reck, Shea, etc. are totally capable in helping Radja fake reads and fake discord logs. He used Recks reads to avoid LLD-wagon, for example. He’s not really done anything town beyond what he’s capable of scum.

This is sort of opposite of Chesskid. His “LLD wagon is lazy” seems like what I was doing with LLD. Smocaine was vote parking LLD, but I mean I’ve played with scum buddies that death tunneled me lazily. It’s just less likely, I think.

What makes you think that Radja could fake 2790 for example?

But it's not just that. I also don't at all understand the scum-motivation for Radja to fake it. At least in my experience, a lot of Radja's frustrating posting here is quite out of character for him. And I'm sure he knows this, so why would he do it as scum when it would be most likely to just set off alarm bells?

I am genuinely inquiring about this here, as I do have moments of paranoia here and there, but I find it difficult to convert my mind to a Radja-scum world.

Are you linking to the right post?

Sorry Bins, I meant 2792

[DeasVail]

I dislike dunker more and more as this day goes on

I just really struggle to see him as scum tbh.

I try to think of how his posting comes from a scum mindset, and I just... can't do it.

[DeasVail]

Sorry to everyone for not being as involved recently. I’ve had to work more than expected which has been tough, but I’m still committed to working things out to the best of my ability!

Questions from cheet to everyone still in the game:

- State any reasons why you think Arch is town.
- State any reasons why you think I'm scum.

That is all. No big cases needed, just a a little explanation will do

I can answer this though, by saying that I don’t really think that Archwing is town, and I don’t really think Radja is scum. But the Archwing read in particular is not especially sorted at the moment.

[DeasVail]

I haven’t played much lately but I think these are it:

viewtopic.php?f=56&t=73801 - Not a good game at all for me imo.
viewtopic.php?f=53&t=72397 - Probably most indicative of my town play out of the two.

I also wanted to comment on your reply to me here:

Deas, I do seem more active right now,

but I was always here. I'm always reading

. I just could not engage myself earlier. I think there were a couple things that aligned together which "kicked" me into gear.. xy flipping town and mina getting nk'd were definitely part of it. also that there are still 2 scum alive right now bothers me.

we're one mislynch away from lylo and I feel like I'm really getting into this game. I feel like town is starting to cohere together and start to work with eachother. that was not happening the last couple of days.

The bolded is what most concerns me because I knew that you were here and reading, you didn’t seem that enthusiastic about the xyzzy vote, phrasing it as a sheep of Titus, and not really doing much to solve the game further. I’m glad that you’re getting into the game, and if you are town I am sorry for going all squinty-eyed at you but my thoughts on who’s scum is basically a revolving door of who is scum out of you/Bins/Bulba depending on my mood at the time (It would take a lot to convince me on Radja).

Also Radja, please let me know when you have time to get back into the game. I’d like to ask you something.

[DeasVail]

deas,

can you link me your last two town games?

What did you end up gaining from my answer?

Okay, double checked, and Dino

was

a counter to the Fitz wagon. Does anyone think there were any other scum besides Fitz on or pushing the wagon? Or do you think it was all town?

What are your thoughts on this?

DV, what was it that you wanted to ask me? I'm having a really busy weekend. But I'll see if I can find time to get to your question

I was interested in how confident you are in your read of me.

-----

Also my reads have been spiraling and spiraling and it's gotten to the point now where I just can't get Archwing-scum out of my head, but I also have reason to think that he might not be scum, and there goes the spiral again! This is another call out for anyone with a decent townread on him to explain why. Or for someone with a decent scumread on someone else to convince me of that (preferably not a scumread on me, you know) because I'm at a point where every time I try to think of someone as scum, I instead come up with a reason for why they're town and it's driving me a bit bonkers at the moment. And when it comes down to it, I come up with the least number of reasons for archwing to be town.

[DeasVail]

I would really really rather not claim.

Like really.

[DeasVail]

If you could order players by how much you townread them and give the reasons, that would be very helpful for following your spiral. Also how do you use scum!Arch to explain the NKs?

I can see why T-Bone and Mima could have been killed regardless of their reads, but was there a good reason for the Almost50 kill apart from his reads? I have no idea personally.

Sorry, backtracking a moment. DV, why would you think Mina would be killed regardless of her reads? The kill on her makes me more suspicious of you. Combined with this statement it kind of confirms to me that you in particular as scum would be super wary of her as a player.

A50 is a very strong town player but he had also claimed VT. Either scum thought he was a gambitting PR or he was enough of a threat to kill despite the claim. Can't remember if that's been said.

Mina was pretty obviously one of the players putting more ~effort~ into the game, and I remember being pretty excited when she talked about how her team was planning to read the game, especially Singer since I've played with her a few times before and I expect that my play so far would be fairly solidly town-me to anyone that has significant experience with me. After I saw the Mina kill, my thought was very much "oh that makes sense" because her reads were still in the progress of being solidified and her whole team was going to look at the game. I think that would have been quite scary to scum, and I also very much doubt that she would have still had a scumread on me today. By killing her before she gets the chance to discuss with her team and update her reads, scum get to keep the status quo, which was, let's face it, trending towards a mislynch on me, which is a pretty juicy thing for scum!

But yeah, I totally agree, the kills don't quite make sense with Archwing as scum. But I townread Bins a bit more for her persistent pushing for a massclaim today and the general "all over the place-ness" of her play before now as well. I townread Bulba because his response to me showed a thought process much more in depth than I would expect from scum, in addition to this being a theme I've noticed from the rest of his posts on reviewing his ISO as well.

I'm mildly surprised that Radja hasn't focused more on trying to sort me, considering that he is reasonably familiar with me outside of mafia, but his response to me does make sense if he had a strong scumread on chesskid, so I don't think it does much to change my townread.

PEdit:

That's fair enough I guess, and it looks like you're right. I didn't realise the situation was quite as dire as it was.

I'm the backup tracker. I tracked Archwing last night and he went nowhere.

[DeasVail]

OUUUU exciting

Was there a crumb?


This is fine. I was trying to figure out wtf you could be and that works
RADJA LYNCH TIME

I didn't crumb anything. I have no idea if Chess did or not.

And yeah sorry to everyone for the weird halfclaim thing. I was being stupid.

[DeasVail]

I'll be back later to sort out my reads. Obviously the track result is a decentish? part of my Archwing hesitation. I don't know how to feel about it tbh

[DeasVail]

Does your role literally say "Backup Tracker"? This is important.

I don't think an answer to this would be allowed?

[DeasVail]

Does your role literally say "Backup Tracker"? This is important.

I don't think an answer to this would be allowed?

You don't think you'd be allowed to give an answer relating to your actual role?

and bulba backup was used in TM already in ethers normal
now it’s not greylisted? i don’t think
my only iffy part was there being already a backup role

First, the setups are created by the actual mods and not by committee. So just because Ether designed her game a certain way does not mean Smith did. In fact, mastina has already dumped a lot of mod meta in the chat that I still need to get through (and likely won't). I'm just down to asking specific questions now. Greylisted roles were brought up after Math's death, because Fruit Vendor is a greylisted role. Mastina said at the time to keep an eye out, because only one more max would be in the game. I wasn't sure on the status of something like Backup Tracker at the time, so I looked it up, and Backup is normal as a modifier. I asked mastina if something like Backup Tracker would be likely in this game, and she said that Smith would be unlikely to include it. If he included a backup role, it'd probably be Universal Backup. There's another reason why I don't like DV's claim, but that's based on some of the things mastina has said regarding Smith's design philosophy. I want to finish massclaim first and have DV actually stop dodging the question before I reveal what it is, though. I might be able to catch the other scumbag.

Speaking of claiming, Bins, you haven't claimed yet. I thought you would, given that you even offered to go first. I'll claim after you.

You were asking me to comment on the wording of my role PM, which would, by my interpretation, be against the rules.

I'll post the rest of my thoughts on the massclaim after Keychain claims.

[DeasVail]

Ah damn. I hoped that Keychain was something at least, but it's okay, we can work with this.

I'm going to need the Radja scumread explained to me. Linking back to previous posts that I've either missed or were from before I replaced in is fine.

Bulba, I'll need you to explain the shading of my claim, particularly the stuff around the wording and accusing me of question dodging when a question you asked was whether "[insert text here]" was in my Role PM, which can pretty easily be interpreted as against the "quoting role PMs" rule.

Radja, I'm going to have to force the issue and say that I find the distance you are keeping from me concerning. Saying I'm charasmatic and could easily fool you makes sense to some degree, but the me that you know from Survivor is not especially cutthroat or devious, so I'm still surprised that you would almost dismiss me as being scum without there really being any evidence of you questioning that.

[DeasVail]

Ugh. :/

I’ll be back later today

[DeasVail]

I was asking you if your role was actually called Backup Tracker, and not something else like "Backup Investigator" or some other type of backup. A straight-up tracker backup didn't make sense to me, and I was wondering if you just simplified the actual role with what you are now. I was specifically asking for the actual name of your role, and there was nothing ambiguous about the question. So acting like I'm trying to get you to quote part of your Role PM is disingenuous when all I said was "What's your role actually called?". That'd be like if we were in a theme game, I claimed VT, you asked specifics, and I started acting cagey, even though it's very easy to say "Reginald Foresythe, Expert Butterfly Collector, Vanilla Townie".

And why it's important is that given what mastina has told me about the mod, Backup Tracker as a role seemed highly unlikely to me, as its inclusion would suggest the Tracker role being super important and would increase the game falling into a Follow the Cop type mentality, which Smith has been shown to be adverse to. It's why I asked her if Backup Tracker would be something that Smith would include in a game. I even asked about Backup Investigator. And she said that the role would be unlikely, and he'd probably include something along the lines of Universal Backup. So yeah, I've been pretty skeptical about your claim, but given that there have been no other PR claims, it makes me think it's a little more likely, and the mod is just trying to counterbalance day talk.

Thanks for the reply. I was confused by what you meant because I said I was the backup tracker and didn't know why that needed any clarification, but that makes sense.

my head is spinning this game.

like i really wanna see town!bins this game, but like... what if radja is right? i dunno.

@deas
why did you track me? do really thought that out of the remaining alive players that if I was scum, I would have made the kill?

My thinking was that if you were scum, it was either with Bins or Bulba.

If you're scum with Bins, it's imo kind of a coin toss whether you or Bins makes the kill? I don't really know how it would make much difference either way.

If you were scum with Bulba, I imagine you could have made the kill in order to protect Bulba, who could have been quite reasonably expected to survive to end game if not caught in making the kill.

But I didn't actually go into all this thought when I submitted the action. I just tracked you because I thought you were most likely to be scum and there was no big reason I could see for you not to make the kill.

Why do you think you wouldn't have made the kill?

[DeasVail]

I'm going to need the Radja scumread explained to me. Linking back to previous posts that I've either missed or were from before I replaced in is fine.

- cheeky cheeky radja did not have a good position in regards to the LLD lynch, using reck's read to distance from it ("LLD reach out to reck was town")
- he overjustified his hammer even when the majority of players didnt care
- the hammer was meh
- now he's trying to use his team to guilt me and AtE, ew
- PoE is pretty strong rn cause i have townreads on everyone else (dunker, keychain, DV prolly)


thats the best i got

argument for why not arch:
- UCV vote on LLD didnt look like a bus
- in general i have gotten good vibes from this slot, and am unsure on where a scumread could be coming from
- i cant figure out who his buddy would be, unless im wrong on dunker/keychain, because he's not scum with DV/bulba/radja

argument for why not DV:
- WE HAVE NO MORE PRS WTF

Thanks Bins.

Why can't Archwing be scum with Bulba or Radja?

[DeasVail]

Radja, I'm going to have to force the issue and say that I find the distance you are keeping from me concerning. Saying I'm charasmatic and could easily fool you makes sense to some degree, but the me that you know from Survivor is not especially cutthroat or devious, so I'm still surprised that you would almost dismiss me as being scum without there really being any evidence of you questioning that.

DV, the fact of the matter is that this isn't Survivor. I actually do think you have a history of being devious there though? But that's not really the point. In Survivor I trusted you because there aren't any alignments being distributed before the game starts. In this game, it's a completely different story. It's not because I WANT to work with you because you're likable and stuff that I SHOULD because I do think that you're fully capable of trying to get me to townread you. In fact, if you had started the game, there's a big chance it would have worked.

On another note, I realized lynching the only claimed PR is a terrible idea so I'm going to

VOTE: Bins

My teammates would like me to vote Dunk, but I'm not really a big fan of that.

Thanks Radja, I didn't mean to say that this is akin to Survivor, but more that I found using the fact that you think I can fool you, as a justification for not really trying to read me, was a bit ehhhh.

[DeasVail]

Btw where I'm at right now is:

- I think Bins has to be town because of her immediate reaction to my claim. I don't think(?) scum would have been able to know that there no other PRs and if there were another PR, I think they might still have had a shot at lynching me. BUT, Bins unnecessarily put herself in a position where she could not turn around on me without looking really suspicious. So I just don't think the play makes sense from scum there.

- I... still lean town on Radja, but I'm a lot less sure. Mina's read on Radja (which very closely resembled my own) did definitely boost my confidence in townreading him. I am doubting myself a bit, but I can't bring myself to vote for him.

- I remember thinking pretty strongly that Keychain was town and I'm know questioning why I felt so strongly about that but that's probably just because she hasn't posted as much and further posting from her would probably just make me feel better about that again. So I am going to park that thought for now.

- Dunker's still town.

And so that would... leave me with Archwing and Bulba, with maybe a chance of Radja replacing one of them?

[DeasVail]

In post 3948, DeasVail wrote:
- I think Bins has to be town because of her immediate reaction to my claim. I don't think(?) scum would have been able to know that there no other PRs and if there were another PR, I think they might still have had a shot at lynching me. BUT, Bins unnecessarily put herself in a position where she could not turn around on me without looking really suspicious. So I just don't think the play makes sense from scum there.


Um, I'm not following. If Bins was scum and you were town, wouldn't she know that your claim was true? Trying to lynch you now would be risky. Why wouldn't she back you immediately?

Spoiler: Do you see what I see?

@DV: Why aren't you voting Arch, then?In post 3948, DeasVail wrote:And so that would... leave me with Archwing and Bulba, with maybe a chance of Radja replacing one of them?In post 3951, Dunkerdoodles wrote:boon is having second thoughts and now think the team might be bulba/arch.@DV: Why aren't you voting Arch, then?

Regarding Bins, I see your point, but I thought it most likely that there would be a fourth PR, and I also thought that if there was, scum would still have a chance at getting me lynched. I've got to say, I'm not feeling as strong about Bins-town as when I made that post. ugggh and here I go.

The reason why I haven't voted yet is because I've still been going around in circles about who is actually scum. That post was an attempt to make things clearer in my own mind, but it's become a bit of a jumble again, especially with Keychain (who really is probably town from an ISO read) not being around.

You are right that I should vote though.

VOTE: Archwing

[DeasVail]

UNVOTE: Archwing
VOTE: Radja

If you're town, I'm sorry.

[DeasVail]

I don't know when the mod will come online, but I'll just say my thoughts right now because I'll have to get going soon.

If Radja is scum, then I think it's with Archwing or Bulba (and tbh more likely Archwing). His last page of posts has been very much in the style of "getting whatever he can out there" in order to stay alive (for example the whole "I don't want to be the mislynch target in LYLO" thing, which I think comes from someone who is in a bit of a panic and really trying to make themselves look town with the reasoning of "why would scum do that" - e.g. Keychain's reason for townreading him. So the reason why I lean Archwing is because if Radja had Bulba as a partner he wouldn't have been quite as panicky (due to Arch being more suspected), but tbh as I'm typing this I'm not sure if that reasoning really holds up and so I think it could be either of Arch or Bulba realistically. Probably not Keychain since I don't think he would have been as panicked with her as a partner.

If Radja is town, then I would probably still go with Arch/Bulba as my guess, with Bins as a possibility but I'm not convinced that she's scum even with Radja being town.

[DeasVail]

VOTE: Archwing

yeah

[DeasVail]

I'm sort of leaning Bins over Bulba for the partner right now, but I'm thinking on it. I still think Dunker's town.

[DeasVail]

Deas we are in lylo please Unvote.

Who did you track

uhhhhhhh?

I'm guessing this is where we do the showdown with the Pow Pow and the Bam Bam, but I think you already knew that.

Unless I'm worrying about nothing and it does turn out as easy as just lynching you.

But tbh this whole thing is now just feeling weird and surreal.

[in case it wasn't obvious, Arch visited keychain last night]

[DeasVail]

Hey! I am here but at work so I might disappear suddenly. Catching up on the last couple of pages now.

[DeasVail]

I’m claiming now. This is to get assistance from the other town members in regards to balance in this 1v1.

I’m a Doctor. I never protected anyone correctly (SORRY). I crumbed this in on Day 1 638 - the first letter of each sentence spells out “Artz” which is doctor in German. I also heavily crumbed my protects after almost EVERY flip in the game and crumbed Doc a little more later on especially during the claim (hopefully if you reread this is obvious).

My protects were: Bulba (hence why I was like WHY DID BULBA NOT DIE), Chesskid (Which I INITIALLY HAD AS T-BONE AND SWITCHED LAST MINUTE, WHICH is why I was like “IM SO SORRY TBONE” and the reason I protected Chess was I thought if his reads were right he would die), next I protected Keychain (which is why I said “Why hasn’t Keychain died yet?”), finally last night I protected DV (very obviously why, even if I wasn’t sure of the claim).

THIS IS ALSO WHY I WANTED A MASSCLAIM THE DAY BEFORE LYLO. So I could get a good protect target (claims are useless to me in LYLO).

Anyways, I’m interested in this balance. Because Implosion still thinks Doc-Tracker+Backup-Fruit Vendor (essentially a neutral role) is balanced. Which is why I still believed DV’s claim. But now I have no idea.

Also, yell at me for the Radja lynch after.

I am so sorry that I ever doubted you!!!!!

[DeasVail]

@DV: Why did you track Arch again?

Because I super stubborn!

But really it was just me going back and forth on all the targets.

I wasn't going to track Dunker or Keychain because I thought they were town

I could have tracked Bins but deep deep down I knew she wasn't scum... okay maybe I actually did suspect Bins, but I thought that after Radja flipping town, scum would have been pretty paranoid about Bins getting tracked, given how hard she pushed the Radja lynch.

And really I don't think I was going to be able to let go of tracking within my pet scumteam prediction of you/Arch

So you or Arch? Well I thought that an argument could be made for or against either. Arch was the stronger suspect of mine, but he knew that, and I knew that he knew that, and he knew that I knew that he knew that... and okay endless spiral. So really it was a game of guessing which way they were going to guess that I'd go.

And at this point I thought it would be pretty stupid to put so much thought into it given that I gave it about a 60% (totally fabricated number) chance of me dying and so I just went with Archwing because "they wouldn't think I'd track him twice in a row!" even though I totally would but they weren't to know that.

Welcome to the inner sanctum of me!

[DeasVail]

Bulba.

Pretend I am scum. Who is my partner?
Dunker, Bins, Bulba..

Why would Deas track me out of the remaining players,

AND WHY WOULD I MAKE THE KILL?

. Honestly, that is a really big scumslip. I really don't give two shits about tracking the same target twice, that's whatever. What I am getting at, is that if I was scum, why would

I

make the night kill? I was the most suspect target yesterday aside from Radja. It really doesn't make sense.

"Why would Deas track me out of the remaining players"

If you think it doesn't make sense for me to track you, then doesn't that answer for us why you made the kill?

[DeasVail]

Sorry, I ended up getting sidetracked by life stuff and I think I have one more page to go or so, but first:

no, i can definitely see you making the kill over bulba
for one you might think deas might track someone more townread like bulba
or you could think he won't track the same person twice.

Why would I expect a townread to be tracked. You don't track people you think are town, especially after that mass claim. I was the next in line, after radja, yesterday. Maybe I would just make a shitty tracker, I dunno... But what deas is claiming jist doesn't make sense.

I'm 100% okay with a double tracking, I have no contest to that.

Deas can you show me where you crumbed backup tracker, if at all?

I did not crumb anything, and you already know that.

But if you want me to post it in massive bold so that everyone knows once again that I didn't crumb anything, just let me know and I can do it.

I understand that this sucks and I understand that you need me to be lynched and there's probably no reason for me to have a problem with the subtle "Oh Deas, please show me where you crumbed?" when I've already posted saying that I didn't crumb anything and you've already posted that, but it's still getting to me and I don't even know what the point in me saying this is but from playing with you in this game I think you're cool and I don't want this to be a, like, animosity thing but aarrgargargh I should stop now.

[DeasVail]

DV please make lots of town posts

I will do my best to look town in a town trying to look town way rather than in a scum trying to look town way! And I don't know if that's even a thing but maybe it's what I'm doing now I don't know?

But yeah I was sort of hoping I would just be killed because then I wouldn't have to deal with scum relying on my lynch. I will probably become less and less filtered as things go on, so you have that to look forward to I guess?

[DeasVail]

As for a Bulba vote, I probably wouldn't be 100% never ever against it. Bulba and Arch suddenly being at each other's throats makes me think that with me tracking Arch, Bins claiming Doc, and people not being that suspicious of me, they've sort of freaked out and decided to hard bus each other as a hail mary. I can't make sense of Bulba's weirdly premature vote on Archwing other than as a weird attempt to distance.

But (I totally understand that this is assuming that I'm being truthful here), Arch is 100% scum, Bulba is probably scum.

Assuming Bulba is scum, if he's lynched, then it's still me vs Arch again, but in 3P LYLO, and perhaps selfishly, I don't want to have to keep going through this in another day phase as well. Arch knows that he's probably lynched if it's him vs. me today, so at least lynching his buddy would give him a re-roll of the dice in a sense. Anything can happen in 3P LYLO. But I don't want anything to happen. I want us to win!

Also Katsuki thinks it's weird that anyone believes Smocaine would have been the one to take the scum role in their team (especially given that Katsuki apparently loves scum and spent heaps of tokens on trying to get it in the last Team Mafia). I know that Katsuki likes scum but I don't know the rest of the team too well so I can't really comment but sheep Katsuki and lynch Archwing!

[DeasVail]

Yeah, my team and I all think the Bulba rushed vote was sort of odd and I can see it coming from a scum buddy. With you saying you think it's probably Arch, the partner might think he's doomed and then vote in that scenario. The one thing I don't get then is that Bulba has been pretty much bussing for the last two days.

To you, Bulba should be lock scum. And the fact that I'm townreading you makes me also think that Bulba is lock-scum. Though, I'm more compelled to lynch in Arch-DV if possible.

Regarding Bulba/Arch, from memory I think something pretty compelling is Bulba's approach to Arch over the last couple of game days, particularly the day xyzzy was lynched. I thought something was wrong and that xyzzy might be town and that Arch was scum, and I actually tried to push for an Arch lynch over a xyzzy one. Bulba made a big deal about how uncomfortable he was with the xyzzy wagon and his main suspect was Archwing, but didn't do anything to change it, and most importantly didn't do anything to push an Archwing wagon. I also think it was a similar deal with the Radja lynch, and I think it was a pretty intentional way to avoid looking bad on the town wagons while also not actually doing anything to change them. This was my main reason for coming up with the Bulba/Arch theory in the first place and I'm feeling pretty good about it now.

[DeasVail]

I also think this reaction comes across as incredibly measured and forced, but I'm also biased I guess.

Deas we are in lylo please Unvote.

Who did you track

[DeasVail]

He was throwing shade at my claim and then no one played along, so it would have been pretty stupid if he did continue pushing it.

And with people still believing my claim even after you left me alive, it makes total sense that he’d change tact. Everything that Bulba says in my defence is poisonous to me now that he’s seen as scum by most people. But I’m not fussy about where compliments come from.

But yeah, using the “coaching” buzzword to describe that is quite the stretch.

[DeasVail]

I am V/LA over Easter, but I will check back in every so often in case anyone needs anything from me.

[DeasVail]

Hey Bins/Dunker, where are your thoughts currently at?

There's been a lot of uhhh... questionable posts over the last few pages and it's become really obvious (at least to me) that Arch has gotten to the point where he's just throwing whatever he can out there to see what sticks. I've sort of been holding back because I don't want this to descend into a quote wall war if I can help it (or spam posting war, one or the other, I guess). But if by any chance either of you are still unsure or need more from me, I'll happily point out all the uh questionable posting. I just don't want to start ripping into Arch's posts unnecessarily if you guys see it too.

[DeasVail]

Hey Bins/Dunker, where are your thoughts currently at?

There's been a lot of uhhh... questionable posts over the last few pages and it's become really obvious (at least to me) that Arch has gotten to the point where he's just throwing whatever he can out there to see what sticks. I've sort of been holding back because I don't want this to descend into a quote wall war if I can help it (or spam posting war, one or the other, I guess). But if by any chance either of you are still unsure or need more from me, I'll happily point out all the uh questionable posting. I just don't want to start ripping into Arch's posts unnecessarily if you guys see it too.

You think it's Bulba/Arch right? and not Dunker/Arch? So Bulba's putting on this bus show

Yeah, I just can’t see Dunker as scum here.

Also I would like to point out that Arch is making a big deal out of me being a big scary scum player based on the fact that I’m an established player on this site, but he has nothing to back that up. I’m known for my town play, not my scum play, and I always play pretty conservatively as scum. I can’t remember claiming anything other than VT, and I’m pretty sure I’ve definitely never done a fake guilty. So Archwing saying that a fake claim and then fake guilty are “well within my scum range” is frankly just bullshit. I don’t think he even knows what my scumrange is.

And there’s so much other stuff from Arch like this and worse that is just really really bad.

[DeasVail]

Also I think the casual insults towards Dunker and Bins aren’t cool.

PEdit: so it’s Creature’s fault that your scum? What the fuck, seriously. Like I’m really sorry guys, but this is just bizarre.

[DeasVail]

Bins this is exactly why you have been kept to lylo. DV and bulba knew you'd lazy hammer their target

Stuff like this and earlier when you said that they’d be game throwing if they voted for you. :/

[DeasVail]

I would ask you to consider unvoting Bins, just because I would be able to confirm which of Bulba/Dunker is scum tonight if we lynch Archwing.

[DeasVail]

Like it probably doesn’t make a difference since I’m pretty sure in Bulba being scum at this point, but voting Bulba does seem like an unnecessary delaying tactic. Scum would be pretty underpowered here with a traitor here imo.

[DeasVail]

This is getting too ridiculous. I’m going to make a post tomorrow outlining why Archwing is scum, particularly from his posts during this day phase. You can listen to it, not listen to it, at this point I’m kind of over the whole situation and I understand that for Bins/ProbDunker it’s a difficult decision etc but this is all just too much. Nonetheless, at this point it’s obvious I’m going to have to say more than I’ve been saying. If the Bulba lynch needs to happen first then so be it, but I just really want to get this Archwing thing over with guys.

[DeasVail]

I'm sorry that I never got to write the post I was planning to yesterday. MS went down while I was typing it up and then my computer restarted overnight and I can't recover it. I will type it all up again but it won't be until this afternoon most likely.

@Bins re: the scum no-killing thing. You're right, and I somehow hadn't actually considered that.

If we lynch Bulba that's okay, I'll cope, I'll still try my best to pull out the win for us. But I will still be asking that we lynch between me and Arch today, for the sake of my own sanity more than anything else.

Big post should be coming sometime this afternoon.

[DeasVail]

It's extra chocolate chip double crunch time! Woo yeah!!!

(I'm a bit sick and it's making me a little loopy, but you'll probably see my mood shift as I read through Archwing's posts so look forward to that!)

First up, I feel that my most legit point against Arch prior to the track result was his behaviour around the xyzzy wagon, which I outlined in the first post where I voted for him and I don't think needs going over again. But I really think I was onto something there!

But yeah, now I'll go through the stuff that has occurred since the track result that I think reveals Arch as scum, apart from the fact that he, you know, visited Keychain the night that she died. (I'm being needlessly bitchy here but surely I have that right after all of this)

Without further ado!

3997: THE REACTION! And ooooooh what a reaction it is.

Let's pretend that Archwing is town.

Archwing sees me (the claimed backup tracker) vote for him and say nothing else or any kind of track result or anything.
I think it was pretty obvious that I was claiming that I tracked Arch, but even if you were to give Arch the benefit of the doubt here and say he just realised, surely he as town would just think that me voting him so early is totally weird and crazy and doesn't make any sense and he would generally be totally "wtf" in response right?

Instead we get a super controlled, measured, constructed post. And you know who makes those kinds of posts??? Yep, that's right. Scum! Scum trying to have a "town" response to a track guilty but imo totally failing at it but I guess not since he hasn't been lynched yet.

---

4002: I feel the use of the exaggerated buzzword "scumslip" to describe my claim betrays a certain level of desperation that is consistent with his other posting.

(Basically I think both he and Bulba freaked the fuck out after people weren't questioning my claim very much and I tracked him to Keychain)

---

4040: "Why would Deas track me out of the remaining players, AND WHY WOULD I MAKE THE KILL?. Honestly, that is a really big scumslip."

So here he's saying that it doesn't make any sense for me to choose him as a track target because he wouldn't make the kill.

But if he thought that it wouldn't make sense for me to track him, doesn't that mean he would make the kill, thinking that I wouldn't track him? I believe he's being honest about the first part and actually thought that I would not track him due to it not making sense. And I think he's made that pretty obvious in this post, but is trying to use it against me somehow because at this stage people are saying they believe my claim so "throw out whatever shit you can to see what sticks", is probably his best strategy.

---

4044: "why would scum!me wait until now to fuck around with Deas' claim?"

Um because Bulba tried to fuck around with my claim Day 4 but no one bought it. (More on this later)

Again, more random arguments that make no sense for the sake of making arguments!

---

4049: "Like, out of LQ (game still active), Assembler/Mulch (scum), Sheep (scum), and creature (town)... how does UCV take scum here?"

Another argument that makes absolutely no sense! Arch has already said that Creature is bad as scum as a reason in his defence, but now UCV wouldn't take a scum PM because... someone else would be taking it instead...? Um.... who???

---

4054: "Bins, I will join you on bulba today if you wanna go there. I'm positive he's the other scum. I promise."

Even though I'm apparently 100% scum, he is suggesting that people vote Bulba instead (not confirmed scum to Arch at this point in a world where he is town). Again, at this stage his situation is desperate. People are still believing me. He doesn't think he can get me lynched, so the best option is for him to delay things by getting people to lynch Bulba (who I still think is very likely his buddy), and if he is the one that spearheaded the bulba lynch, it gives him material to use to look better than me in 3P LYLO. The "Oooo I got you to lynch Bulba!" argument.

Town have the truth on their side and tend to think that surely people will come around and believe them because it's the truth. But Arch shows none of that here.

---

4079: Arch asks: "Deas can you show me where you crumbed backup tracker, if at all?"

Despite him knowing that I never did:
4062

And despite me claiming the previous day that I hadn't crumbed and didn't know whether Chess had or not.

I feel like this is obviously just designed to make me look bad.

---

See my 4105 in response to the post from Archwing in 4104.

---

4122, 4135: These are just really yuck posts which I feel can only come from scum trying whatever they can. Like saying Bins/Dunker are lazy, or saying they're game throwing is just ughhh.

---

4155: Total backpedal on setup spec, despite having used it as an argument in previous posts:

4015
4063

Which I think just makes it obvious that he was using arguments that he didn't believe in (this doesn't come from town)

---

4158: "Because the other arguments weren't working, let's try something new!" (Paraphrased)

---

4181 is also yuck.

---

To be continued (hopefully later tonight)

[DeasVail]

I’m still out, but I’d also like to point out the sudden change in Bulba from trying to dispute my claim Day 4 as if he was testing the waters to see if I could be lynched, to... whatever he is doing now, which I think can only really make sense as scum with Arch trying to mindfuck people into voting for me, and I’m really worried that it’s going to work.

[DeasVail]

Just on phone so can only do short posts for now

Deas, is there any talk in your team's pt/discord about why smocaine took the alleged backup tracker?

My team’s plan was for Katsuki to take any scum PM and for any town PRs to be given to the weaker/less likely to betownread players, since it would make them more likely to be confirmed as town, and that ended up being the rationale for Smocaine getting the backup tracker role.

[DeasVail]

Hey Bins/Dunker, where are your thoughts currently at?

There's been a lot of uhhh... questionable posts over the last few pages and it's become really obvious (at least to me) that Arch has gotten to the point where he's just throwing whatever he can out there to see what sticks. I've sort of been holding back because I don't want this to descend into a quote wall war if I can help it (or spam posting war, one or the other, I guess). But if by any chance either of you are still unsure or need more from me, I'll happily point out all the uh questionable posting. I just don't want to start ripping into Arch's posts unnecessarily if you guys see it too.

You think it's Bulba/Arch right? and not Dunker/Arch? So Bulba's putting on this bus show

Yeah, I just can’t see Dunker as scum here.

Also I would like to point out that Arch is making a big deal out of me being a big scary scum player based on the fact that I’m an established player on this site, but he has nothing to back that up. I’m known for my town play, not my scum play, and I always play pretty conservatively as scum. I can’t remember claiming anything other than VT, and I’m pretty sure I’ve definitely never done a fake guilty. So Archwing saying that a fake claim and then fake guilty are “well within my scum range” is frankly just bullshit. I don’t think he even knows what my scumrange is.

And there’s so much other stuff from Arch like this and worse that is just really really bad.

and now look at bulb. He's essentially conf scum. He isn t even trying. All he cares about is setting up a mislynch today or tomorrow.


Pedit
Deas, that's creature talking friend.

Also I think the casual insults towards Dunker and Bins aren’t cool.

PEdit: so it’s Creature’s fault that your scum? What the fuck, seriously. Like I’m really sorry guys, but this is just bizarre.

Also I really feel the need to reiterate this. Blaming Creature as if it makes a difference when I’m accusing him of making shit up is super dodge. I don’t care who’s making shit up to try and get me lynched. It’s the same thing

[DeasVail]

!!!!

My team has found where chesskid crumbed.

Read 2370 from T-Bone. (Chesskid made a post in our PT about how he thought that T-Bone was the original tracker who tracked Titus after this)

Then look at all of Chesskid's posts after this post from T-Bone. He calls T-Bone town at every opportunity.

And then the clincher:

You know how with Batman and Robin how Batman is always belittling Robin?

Thats u rn

GAME SET MATCH

BAM

[DeasVail]

Can we lynch Arch now please?

[DeasVail]

Chesskid made a post in our PT about how he thought that T-Bone was the original tracker who tracked Titus after this

if your backup tracker claim was real, I feel like this piece of information would have been brought to light

WAY BEFORE

now. Which means you and your team has spent the last 5+ IRL days trying to find some bullshit phrase you can twist into a breadcrumb. I mean, solid effort to your team and all... but if you were town you wouldn't be hiding shit like this. Which means that post does not exist, or at least in the town-intent. Rather, pointing out this post is why TBone was night killed. Most likely by Chesskid.

wait

so you're saying your team just discovered where he crumbed?

as in he didn't tell you when he crumbed

I came into this game with no information on whether chesskid crumbed or not and I still haven’t read the team’s PT in full. According to my team, he didn’t mention crumbing in the PT, he only mentioned the fact that he thought T-Bone was the tracker (which I’ve only found out now). So my team had no way of knowing either without having read his posts closely. I asked my team a while ago to help me find where chesskid crumbed if at all, and ActionDan has just now found the Batman/Robin post and thinks that chesskid’s consistent town read of T-Bone following the above linked post as well as the Batman/Robin thing, make it pretty clear that I am what I say I am.

I don’t see how we could have known this before now and I think it’s pretty expected that chesskid wouldn’t post that he crumbed in the PT. Why would he tell our team that he crumbed? He didn’t know he was going to be replaced.

Archwing’s post here is super inappropriate

[DeasVail]

Also looking at T-Bone’s post that I linked, I think it is likely that scum would have picked up on something too. It was a bit blatant.