Mini 2014: Succinct Mafia (Over)

[TrinityNZ]

Hi everyone. I’ll do some reading tonight and will try to post tomorrow.

[TrinityNZ]

MafMen is already annoying the shit out of me and his reads look pretty much useless, but I think he's looking really town at least.

(Wallposting is NAI for me and for most everyone who does it, I'm pretty sure.)

@TrinityNZ

Welcome to the game, initial thoughts?

I still need a read on Hiraki, making this my next priority. Don't like what I've seen of Eevee, or rather what I haven't seen, and could lynch there; but it wouldn't be my first choice.

Thanks. After a couple of hours of reading tonight, I’m strongly leaning towards MathBlade as scum. Not sure about everyone else yet, its confusing with all the replacements, and it’s late at night here. I like to keep things moving so

VOTE: math

[TrinityNZ]

@ArcAngel9 Why are you on board with lynching Math or Dunn? Who aren't you on board with lynching?

I am tired of this game, its not moving at all to me and this point in time of the game, I am totally clueless.
hoping one of their flips would give more information to move forward.

This does seem suspicious to me. The last time I felt totally clueless was when I was scum....

[TrinityNZ]

VOTE: EeveeLution Army

Why?

[TrinityNZ]

^proof hiraki is scum with math
cool footstand so he can 'forget' his math read after eevee flips town

Yeah I’m still scum reading math

[TrinityNZ]

Could lynch Eevee for lack of a reason not to

I mean, if you really scumread me then you'd probably think twice about this at the very least

Agree. Two town players dead already, I would have thought it’s best not to lynch somebody just because there’s no reason not to.

[TrinityNZ]

vote for deadline

[TrinityNZ]

Spoiler: Off-topic nerdery

(Actually, in retrospect that timestamp solution is waaaay more complicated than just pasting the digest into the post would have been. I worried about "appearing to include hidden messages" but if I had a way to hide a message in a verifiable SHA256 digest I'd have bigger fish to fry than cheating at Mafia. That's probably what I'll do with any future game-relevant offsite links.)

UNVOTE: MathBlade
This is feeling more and more like town. Hopelessly confbiased town, but town.

VOTE: ArcAngel9
Let's wagon this instead. It's almost certainly an empty slot at the moment but I'm not interested in giving the replacement a chance to get comfortable before they're put under pressure.

Unvote for deadline

until replacement happens, don't want a day 1 repeat.

This confuses me as to why you would vote for a deadline one day and then unvote it the next? Because you think MathBlade is town because he created that document? And why AA?

[TrinityNZ]

TrinityNZ is trying to fake a townderp tell. She means your doc Umlaut.

And if a genie did, I would ask for it to remove all evil in the world or make me a billionaire to prove its right and then immediately replace out as I would have better than mod confirmed information on your slot. If I was forced to stay I would vote Wisdom. Trinity is getting up in scumreads too.

I have no idea what you mean by ‘trying to fake a townderp tell’?

[TrinityNZ]

I should be okay because of 24 hour reset rule

@Umlaut because Trinity read enough to see a link yet she didn’t go over to the left to see who did?

If she is reading the posts to obtain reads then surely she would be able to see who wrote it. It’s not like the game is going fast. Trinity hasn’t been reading or displaying any sort of depth at all.

Whoops, I can see I did get it wrong about who created the document. The link I clicked was in a post of MathBlade’s, and I didn’t notice that it was actually in a quote of Umlaut’s.

I have been reading, but it’s harder than I thought it would be, coming into the game, especially where there are a lot of pages to read, and there have been a fair few substitutions.

Nothing has swayed me from my initial read on MathBlade. Pine and MafMen could be partners. Umlaut, Hiraki, Dunstaal read town to me.

[TrinityNZ]

After that last post in particular, Umlaut is looking strongly town to me. I can’t imagine mafia doing that much research.

[TrinityNZ]

After that last post in particular, Umlaut is looking strongly town to me. I can’t imagine mafia doing that much research.

Yeah Trinity is scum. She refuses to analyze any post in depth or answer my direct probe of anything useful she has read.

Sad thing was I was “this close” to nullreading Umlaut til that post.

Effort is not alignment indicative. I have been townread for that shit in Gistou and Shadowrun and Mod is Mafia.

I am making a direct effort to not flood with text and walls and instead let my yeses be yeses and my nos be nos.

This case from Umlaut looks like an excuse to not talk about Trinity / Magna. It’s terrible.

You’re saying that ‘effort is not alignment indicative’. Then you’re saying that I’m scum because I ‘refuse to analyse any post in depth’. Make up your mind.

[TrinityNZ]

ill join any of these wagons bar eevee and trinity

Join the math wagon!

[TrinityNZ]

im spiritually still on it

Why only spiritually? Why don’t you want to vote him?

[TrinityNZ]

Mathwagon is a bad wagon

Eeveewagon is a bad wagon

Otter wagon is a bad wagon

Hiraki is a good lynch. Dunn is a good lynch. Will support either.

Any reasons?

[TrinityNZ]

Yeah. The first three are Town, the latter two are not. Keep up.

I could vote Pine too, is now a good time?

[TrinityNZ]

I could vote Pine too, is now a good time?

I don't like how you're asking permission to vote.

Never mind "I could vote him," what do you actually think of Pine?

I do think he’s scummy, with Math. I’ve been criticised for voting at the wrong times in other games, so just want to check I’m not doing anything wrong. I’m not sure if voting him will make him L-1 and if it’s the wrong time to do that and then I’ll get a hard time. I’m still a newbie at this

[TrinityNZ]

Trinity is the towniest slot in the game
Keep claiming scum

Wisdom, why did you move your vote off MathBlade if he’s your top scum?

[TrinityNZ]

There is no case on me, Umlaut. It's based entirely on me disagreeing with their/your bad reads. There's nothing to engage or dispute, so I don't bother.

This is a pretty blatant lynchbait move, predicated on me not being all that active to derail it.

I'd give you credit for having cold feet, but you still aren't making a better vote.

Not bothering to engage or dispute?

VOTE: Pine
I think this is L-1

[TrinityNZ]

Trinity is the towniest slot in the game
Keep claiming scum

Wisdom, why did you move your vote off MathBlade if he’s your top scum?

Because i cant lynch him on my own
I already said ill vote for whoever of math/lucky/pine/hiraki has enough votes
We need a lynch

Ok that’s what I figured too.

[TrinityNZ]

I'm the doctor. Back off

Now stop with the counter wagons and get on eevee

No. Evee has been pushed by scum all game.

Join me on Trinity.

Everyone agrees that slot is scum just no one is doing a damn thing about it.

really, does everyone agree? Who agrees Math?

[TrinityNZ]

After that last post in particular, Umlaut is looking strongly town to me. I can’t imagine mafia doing that much research.

I can't see scum!Trinity being the first to drop a read like this just minutes after I posted my case.

Scum!Trinity is completely new to Mafia.
Scum!Trinity has exactly zero finished games as town.
Scum!Trinity has no idea whether my case looks towny or not.
Scum!Trinity doesn't know whether I'm about to be the new town leader or the new lynchwagon.
Scum!Trinity has thus far gotten away with unexplained reads and questions that don't really advance the game.
Scum!Trinity isn't going to choose this moment to commit to a read ahead of everyone else.

(Unless scum!Trinity is being coached in a private thread. Aggh daytalk.)

@Trinity

As I said before, you have to step up the contributions. Assuming Pine is town, who if anyone is scum on his wagon? Choices are you, me, Eevee, Hiraki, Wisdom, arguably Dunnstral.

@Eevee

You too. Even if you don't think Pine is town you can answer the hypothetical.

Actually this just a good question to answer in general.

At this point, I don’t know, other than Math. I don’t want to vote the doctor though, if the claim is real. I do have doubts, but we’ll see soon enough.

Math is pushing a vote on me, because I’ve been reading him as scum the whole game pretty much. His evidence on me is very weak. I think we need to vote for him now.

UNVOTE: pine

VOTE: MathBlade

[TrinityNZ]

Yeah but why hide your number of protects. Not like you'll get a chance to use them.

Real doc doctor me imo since ill pushing pine for ya so you dont have to cc so early

Know what its worth me getting nightkilled. I'm Jailkeeper. Wisdom N1

Eevee, how do you reconcile/explain both these contradictory statements? First you ask the real doctor to protect you and then you say you’re jailkeeper.

I haven’t been reading you as scum till now but this seems like evidence enough to lynch you.

[TrinityNZ]

I'm the doctor. Back off

Now stop with the counter wagons and get on eevee

No. Evee has been pushed by scum all game.

Join me on Trinity.

Everyone agrees that slot is scum just no one is doing a damn thing about it.

Math, you’re saying here that Evee has been pushed by scum all game. I haven’t pushed Evee, yet you’re saying I’m scum. Could you explain how those two things go together?

[TrinityNZ]

be less shallow pls
i see that more as a soft cc

Are you telling me to be less shallow? I have no idea what that means

[TrinityNZ]

@mastina, can we have a vote count please?

<<<

INFRACTION

: Third post in a row; user has been warned. >>>

[TrinityNZ]

UNVOTE:

You ruined my setup for a fakehammer so I may as well post this.

Totally unofficial and untrustworthy VC

EeveeLution Army - 3 (MafMen, Umlaut, Pine)
MathBlade - 2 (Wisdom, TrinityNZ)
Pine - 2 (EeveeLution Army, Hiraki)
TrinityNZ - 1 (MathBlade)

Not Voting - 3 (Lycanfire, LuckyOtter, Dunnstral)

want to see what Lycan does.

Yeah.

Let’s play a game

If I am the protective I protected Kokichi.

This doesn't make sense in this setup.

There is just no way both of these claims are fake. If they are, real protective counters right now and we lynch them all, getting two scum for at worst one doctor.

You've been hard-townreading Pine. You've been hard-townreading Eevee. One of them is scum. Which is it?

@Trinity

You've never given any hint of a read on the following slots: Dunnstral, EeveeLution Army, Wisdom. I'd like to know where you place them right now. Actually, a full read list would be helpful.

I don’t more have time to do anything in depth, but this is my list right now:

Pine - town - was scum until just now, but because of Eevee’s fake counterclaim, I’ve changed my mind for the time being
Wisdom - strongly town
Umlaut - town
Dunnstral - townlean
Hiraki - slight townlean
Lucky Otter - slight townlean
Lycanfire - not sure yet
MafMen - scumlean
MathBlade - scum
Eevee - scum - top contender, after the contradiction about doctor/jailkeeper

[TrinityNZ]

shallow means you are looking at the surface and not in depth
eevee is not the best at expressing himself
That doesnt make him scum
Jk makes way more sense than doc
Pine is way scummier than eevee
Look at the bigger picture without letting eevee's weak playstyle to affect you

Why does JK make way more sense than doc?

<<<

INFRACTION

: Fifth post on a page in under 24 hours; user has been warned. >>>

[TrinityNZ]

UNVOTE: Math

VOTE: Eevee

[TrinityNZ]

UNVOTE: Eevee

Don't like him at L-1 without any actual response to my case for voting him.

(Also unannounced L-1 is bad and you should feel bad.)

Sorry I hadn’t realised.

<<< Duplicate post deleted. >>>

[TrinityNZ]

You do realize its 10× better lynching pine than me right?
If i really am jailkeeper(which i am) i can still block scum tonight after pines gone. Its just more logical

Why would you say ‘if I really am a jailkeeper’? Seems strange. Why not just say ‘Because I am a jailkeeper’...?

[TrinityNZ]

Speaking of Mafmen, he hasn't posted here since Monday, pre-claim business

@Mastina, prod please

If we're deciding between claims, Eevee's seems more plausible and I don't see Eevee making that counter as scum at that moment. Eevee's play does seem scummier but it just feels like a bad move lynching him.

If we're going to let the NK resolve it (which really isn't a bad idea), I have no clue anymore. Trinity keeps giving me bad vibes.

@Trinity

Maybe you didn't see it, but immediately following your Math vote I asked you to explain the basis of it.
--
Math, are you trying to get a hypoclaim going because you think it plausible both Pine and Eevee are lying?
--
Umlaut, most of your argumentation depends on associatives and there are a couple I'm not sure about. Maf's straight up "Pine is town without a doubt" seems pretty bold for a scumpartner, don't you think? If anything, it makes more sense to me if Maf is scum and knows Pine is town, or Maf is town and is just being opaque with his reads (as he seems to like to do, given that he called anyone who suspected you "daft" without explanation until asked for it).

The second problem is the Trinity+Eevee combo. Trinity was scumreading Pine, then after Eevee's counterclaim, scum!Trinity would have been able to sit on a Pine vote and stay out of the way and get the mislynch. Instead, scum!Trinity busses her partner who just counterclaimed? It seems equally plausible (or implausible) that scum!Trinity could have been trying to bus scum!Pine who appeared to be going down, then took the opportunity to change her mind as soon as Pine claimed (which she might have known he would do anyway). Following Eevee's counter, Trinity decides to believe Pine over Eevee, for pretty underwhelming reasons.

So I don't know. Sticking to Pine for now.

Sorry I thought I had explained it already. I will try today but I’m away from home and don’t have my notes on me.

[TrinityNZ]

You do realize its 10× better lynching pine than me right?
If i really am jailkeeper(which i am) i can still block scum tonight after pines gone. Its just more logical

Why would you say ‘if I really am a jailkeeper’? Seems strange. Why not just say ‘Because I am a jailkeeper’...?

Because it’s a post meant for other people.

I have used the same wording numerous times as both alignments and I am pretty sure I have done that this game.

Why pick on Evee for it and not me?

And furthermore what if I am right and Evee is fake claiming? If I am the protective Y’all better learn to love the word if for the rest of the day.

Yes’m I think you are right that Eevee is fake claiming.

[TrinityNZ]

You do realize its 10× better lynching pine than me right?
If i really am jailkeeper(which i am) i can still block scum tonight after pines gone. Its just more logical

Why would you say ‘if I really am a jailkeeper’? Seems strange. Why not just say ‘Because I am a jailkeeper’...?

Because it’s a post meant for other people.

I have used the same wording numerous times as both alignments and I am pretty sure I have done that this game.

Why pick on Evee for it and not me?

And furthermore what if I am right and Evee is fake claiming? If I am the protective Y’all better learn to love the word if for the rest of the day.

You didn’t answer the question.

Trinity+MafMen+????

Hot tip provided Free of Charge

I thought it was a rheotorical question. I haven’t noticed you saying it this way in this game.

[TrinityNZ]

Eevee said they claimed because they "didn't think town was going to lynch pine"

Now they're talking about claiming while afraid of dying and the votes on them not showing if they're scum

Also like I said they were probably the lynch without that claim - I think they're scum who afraid of being lynched once their target claimed doctor decided to counterclaim and then push theory as for why their claim makes sense

VOTE: EeveelutionArmy

This is stupid

The post by Army is clearly sarcasm.

Trinity saying she doesn’t read my posts is a fucking scum claim

If I die tonight fucking lynch Trinity

I have just read all your posts again and still cannot see anywhere were you said this.

[TrinityNZ]

Speaking of Mafmen, he hasn't posted here since Monday, pre-claim business

@Mastina, prod please

If we're deciding between claims, Eevee's seems more plausible and I don't see Eevee making that counter as scum at that moment. Eevee's play does seem scummier but it just feels like a bad move lynching him.

If we're going to let the NK resolve it (which really isn't a bad idea), I have no clue anymore. Trinity keeps giving me bad vibes.

@Trinity

Maybe you didn't see it, but immediately following your Math vote I asked you to explain the basis of it.
--
Math, are you trying to get a hypoclaim going because you think it plausible both Pine and Eevee are lying?
--
Umlaut, most of your argumentation depends on associatives and there are a couple I'm not sure about. Maf's straight up "Pine is town without a doubt" seems pretty bold for a scumpartner, don't you think? If anything, it makes more sense to me if Maf is scum and knows Pine is town, or Maf is town and is just being opaque with his reads (as he seems to like to do, given that he called anyone who suspected you "daft" without explanation until asked for it).

The second problem is the Trinity+Eevee combo. Trinity was scumreading Pine, then after Eevee's counterclaim, scum!Trinity would have been able to sit on a Pine vote and stay out of the way and get the mislynch. Instead, scum!Trinity busses her partner who just counterclaimed? It seems equally plausible (or implausible) that scum!Trinity could have been trying to bus scum!Pine who appeared to be going down, then took the opportunity to change her mind as soon as Pine claimed (which she might have known he would do anyway). Following Eevee's counter, Trinity decides to believe Pine over Eevee, for pretty underwhelming reasons.

So I don't know. Sticking to Pine for now.

OK, so Otter I’ve been going backwards and forwards on MathBlade. I didn’t like him at first because he’d pushed really hard on Fuzzy, who turned out to be town, and I thought he’d been pretty instrumental in that mislynch. His posts have been cavalier and rude at times, and I asked him a few questions that he never bothered to answer. He has also tried to say I haven’t been reading posts, when I have. So I was finding him pretty tiresome and conflating that to mean he must be mafia. But, having done an ISO and reading all the posts at once, I think he has been scum hunting pretty hard, and I understand his reads on me, as I don’t tend to do the most in-depth posting, which leaves me open to being read as scum I guess. So I’m currently reading him as town, and am still all for lynching Eevee.

[TrinityNZ]

@mastina, is that a lynch?

[TrinityNZ]

My thoughts exactly.

VOTE: Pine

[TrinityNZ]

My thoughts exactly.

VOTE: Pine

Plus this just screams fake to me. Like, the Pine vote is so obvious why bother with the "my thoughts exactly?"

I don’t know why that seems fake. I had just been about to make a similar post, but saw I was beaten to it. I don’t see what’s wrong with saying that? Doesn’t make me scum (because I’m not).

[TrinityNZ]

LO, your read on the D1 wagon is pretty much the opposite of mine. Any particular reason you expect scum were keen to push specifically that lynch through?

Still quite interested in this response, don't particularly want to talk about Pinescum case until I get an answer. Still do want to talk about Pine scumcase.



@Trinity:

Who are your other scumreads and why?

Your slot was a troll slot before replacing out but your entrance has me feel moderately okay about you.

I kinda got that from D2, actually, which means I was never going to be the nightkill last night and the lycan bit is less damning than I previously thought, but still worth noting. His continued posting makes me more and more certain I'm correct.

Spoiler: Wistown Case Quotes

i dont like fitz
his scumleans are based on nai things

i like hiraki and arc
hiraki's articulated read on arc felt good even though I disagree
arc omgusing me is natural for town-her as she's a reactive person mainly based on emotions

<<<

INFRACTION

: Fifth post on a page in under 24 hours; user has been warned. >>>

What NAI things are my scumleans based on wrt you and Eevee?

These:

@Eevee, wrt 77...as much as you value your vote if you WERE to vote it would be me, the person who's possibly posted the least? You've no suspicions up to this point from what content there is from others?

@Wis, wrt 82...do you ever say you're town when you're scum? If fluffing is NAI why the Koki vote?

You having posted the least doesn't mean Eevee is not allowed to scumread you more than people who have posted more. This is no basis for a scumlean.

Me saying I am town is meaningless and thus nai. Me voting Kokichi can be for any number of reasons regardless of what I think of his fluff. This is no basis for a scumlean.

VOTE: fitz

dont post again, Wisdom, fourth post.

There is a pattern here that is established and continued that leads me to believe Wisdom is town. The pages where Wisdom has trouble with hitting his limit early are also those pages where Wisdom is pushing a read. He's not using his posts to strongman the thread and get people to follow him, but to prod and illuminate. Admittedly, I remembered him as actually getting more infractions, but the posts that were close and thus posts in which he reminds himself not to continue posting follow this pattern.

This tells me Wisdom is likely having trouble not continuing to post not because he's spammy scum who wants to control the thread but because he's spammy town who wants to comment/poke for content.

Additionally, he gets major credit for being a voice of reason on both of the bad-theory lynches.

I'll be back to do more reading later, in case anyone has questions.

How would you respond if I said your scumtell was here and I planned on pushing you tomorrow?

I’m doubting myself after being so wrong about Eevee, but if I had to vote someone other than Pine, it would be Hiraki. Let’s just vote Pine already though.

[TrinityNZ]

Hey I’m really sorry, I’m going on holiday to Rarotonga on Saturday for a week, and probably won’t have internet. Is it best to go on V/LA or ask for a replacement? I thought the game wouldn’t last this long.

[TrinityNZ]

VOTE: pine

Jingle and hiraki after

What do you all think? Does this sound like a plan?

[TrinityNZ]

Dunn, what are your reads?

VOTE: pine

Jingle and hiraki after

What do you all think? Does this sound like a plan?

Are you implying that you think this is the plan to follow or are you asking for direction here?

Like I said, that's the easiest answer. It aligns with both Umlaut's and Wisdom's thoughts. I have expressed my doubts about those two as scum, and about you and Dunn as town, but since I'm still here and both Umlaut and Wisdom are gone, I'm willing to assume that at least one of my reads here is off, possibly all of them.
--
I am not following either Math or Hiraki here.

So scum!Dunn is distancing from Pine and pushing for Eevee lynch saying both are scum. Dunn knows Pine is going to claim (via encryptor), which is going to allow him to go after Eevee, again. So he can comfortably vote Pine for a bit knowing he's going to get to go back to voting Eevee.
Or, town!Dunn legit believes both Pine and Eevee are scum, and does some digging into that line of thought. After the claims, he has to decide which is scum and chooses Eevee, presumably because Eevee was the stronger scumread from the beginning (which he just said, and reading his ISO checks out)

Either scenario seems plausible to me and I don't see how the encryptor in play changes things.

With an encryptor in play scum has zero reason to tell a buddy
“Partner you need to do <x>” they say it in the daychat.

Hiraki’s argument that scum!Dunnstral would openly say his buddy needs to change votes in the game thread is silly

Pine didn't care even a little about this game. You think he really checked a PT over the thread?

I think it’s the plan.

I’ll vote now before I disappear.

VOTE: jingle

[TrinityNZ]

I have some limited internet here so have just done a quick read through.

Mastina said to stay in rather than be replaced.

I’m still happy with lynching Jingle. I think his saying he will self vote when I’m back is just him stalling and hoping suspicion might land elsewhere.

[TrinityNZ]

fyi, we're only guaranteed 1 flip before lylo, not 2. scum can no-kill and considering how quickly the team got eviscerated i'm sure they would be happy for the draw.

i'm pretty sure all ya'll are smart enough to figure that out as scum + otter was a force kill to keep as many suspects as possible in the game. he was legit never aligned with gerry and pine's interactions with him d1 didn't seem like theatre.

gonna read the thread tomorrow so i'll basically become a super saiyan, toodles

I see the concept but the words following from your post do not support the concept.
If they want to have as many possible suspects as possible they shoot myself or Dunn here.

I put out a case as to why Dunn was never scum with Pine. Lucky Otter was not cased like that.

I am thinking it’s Trinity here and Jingle made a stall play to make sure Trinity would submit a kill. With Trinity’s VLA for a week we are disincentived from lynching their slot.

I say for a week we go through all the remaining slots and go from there. This way everyone gives content and we don’t mislynch if scum simply isn’t here.

It doesn’t make sense for it to be me. I voted Jingle early on, and then I clearly revoted him when it looked like he was trying to stall. If we were scum partners, there’s no way I would have done that, to leave myself as the only mafia, especially with so many town remaining.

What I don’t understand is why Jingle hammered himself. I can understand him voting himself to cast off suspicion, but hammering himself, I just don’t get it.

I agree we should take our time and go through all the remaining slots and get content from everyone.

[TrinityNZ]

Well, I'm not touching Lycanfire.

Why not?

[TrinityNZ]

math has shown this game that he doesn't care about people trying to change his mind so i'm most definitely not going to

Vote: Trinity

Proof that Hiraki is scum - straight onto the wagon. If you don’t believe me, at least believe Wisdom - who said Pine then Hiraki.

VOTE: Hiraki

[TrinityNZ]

Lycanfire I’m trying to understand your posts. Who is Gerry?

Sorry to hear about your hand.

[TrinityNZ]

replace out

mastina proves in post 1272 that she didn't bother to read the post before she word checked it.

she refuses to undo the infraction because it would prove she did so upon request.

the game integrity has been compromised and i'll be marking this game as a win.

It’s just a warning... even I’ve had one, it’s not a big deal is it? Not a reason to leave surely?

[TrinityNZ]

replace out

mastina proves in post 1272 that she didn't bother to read the post before she word checked it.

she refuses to undo the infraction because it would prove she did so upon request.

the game integrity has been compromised and i'll be marking this game as a win.

the game integrity has been compromised and i'll be marking this game as a win.

It shows up as 503 for me

.... And she doesn’t have to.

She is following the rules as she wrote them.

Furthermore I am town. Like wtf?

I came to post to say I got called into work anyway but I guess I don’t have to be on strike at the dot of for anymore.

That being said I don’t think you attack Mastina twice like that if you’re scum. So it’s still Trinity or Hiraki and we win.

Dunnstral and Math, please just vote so we can get this game over with. Obviously I’d prefer you to vote for Hiraki, as I know I’m not scum, and I think he is, but I’m not sure how to convince you at this point.

[TrinityNZ]

1) Fuzzy looked like he was trying to bait out the cop versus being the cop. His play didn’t jive with any sort of cop play.
2) Pine was being wagoned day two and then fake claimed protective. I had figured out that Army was the protective and tried a fake claim gambit so both would go into night so Evee or I would be killed. No one went along with the “let scum sort it out” which I maintain was smarter.
2) Jingle was pretty much outed before he replaced in and then did a scum tell I have for him. I told him the wrong thing and his response was just god awful.

3) The day evee was lynched is where I would start.

It spews Dunnstral town in my ISO I have quoted why.
Hiraki is also saying Dunn is scum without refuting those points.
Trinity is also refusing to provide content even with repeated poking.

I am thinking scum is a lock in Trinity+Hiraki. I don’t think Lycanfire does what he did as scum and if he did I am gonna pretend we won anyway as attacking Mastina is a pretty low blow.

It’s not that I’m refusing. I’m finding most of what’s being written impossible to understand so don’t know how to reply. I don’t know if it’s because I’m new and don’t know all the jargon yet, but this game seems more impenetrable than the others I’ve been in.

After the recent (bizarre) posting, my position hasn’t changed that Hiraki is scum and everyone else is town, so I’m happy to leave my vote where it is. MathBlade and Lycanfire went to more effort than I would imagine scum would, and Dunnstral has seemed pretty town all along.

I can do some analysis tomorrow night if that would make any difference, but to be honest, I’m pretty shit at it, and I don’t think it will change anything. I am wondering whether this forum might not be right for me. I have views and reads, for sure, but am not good at articulating them. I’ve tried different techniques in the three or four games I’ve played, but still get criticised for not doing enough, so that’s probably a sign that I’m not really up to it.

[TrinityNZ]

the fact that my argument has been boiled down into "well, he's saying that he talked to him as if there was no day chat LOL" when my argument clearly goes over how Dunn favorably wanted Pine to live after being very negative toward Pine multiple times just doesn't give me any motivation to try with this anymore

Hiraki, I never thought I’d say this, but I just did an iso on Dunnstral, and now can’t for the life of me see why I thought he was obvtown. I hear what you’re saying.

[TrinityNZ]

1) It might just make a difference Trinity. If you suck at explaining yourself then through trying people can go “Hey wait a minute that doesn’t make sense” and then you either reexplain or realize your point doesn’t make sense.

Saying “hey I suck at town so I won’t try” doesn’t help. And that is what it feels like you’re doing.

2) If you are confused by something point it out.

Say in like post 123456 I was confused when you said blah blah blah

We are more experienced players (judging by the join date) so don’t be intimidated by that. The best way to get better is to try.

And if you’re scum (as I think you are) you get better at trying to fake your reads.

So win win

Thanks for the pep talk I will try. Though, throughout the game I have often asked questions, and mostly they haven’t been replied to. For example, why did Jingle self vote?

Nearly all of Lycanfire’s recent posts confused me, I barely understood a sentence in them, and now that he’s gone, I can’t ask him. Why does nobody seem fazed that he suddenly left like that, just for getting a warning? Is that a sign that his slot is the mafia one maybe? I had thought that Lycanfire must be town because surely nobody would put THAT much effort in if they were town, but I could be wrong.

MathBlade, you have looked like scum to me at various points, but I’m still leaning town on you. I might be changing my mind on Hiraki, after doing some ISOs, so that leaves Dunstraal as my scumlean ATM.

[TrinityNZ]

Unvote, Vote: Dunn

Why, Hiraki? I didn’t get around to saying why I had a scumlean towards Dunnstral, and then couldn’t do any posts because of the triple-posting rule. I’m interested to hear your thoughts on why you’re voting for him?

<<< Duplicate post deleted. >>>

[TrinityNZ]

@madtina, could you delete my duplicate posts please? Thanks. I’m holding off posting so I don’t break the rules

[TrinityNZ]

Pine you need to get on eevee

I don't vote for people I think are Town, and I don't appreciate the implied threat there.

intent

Pine you need to get on eevee

I don't vote for people I think are Town, and I don't appreciate the implied threat there.

intent

Sigh

You fuckers

I'm the doctor. Back off

not buying it

@Ank I would look here and then MafMen’s (now Trinity’s reaction)

Dunn + Pine doesn’t make sense here. Between the posts that don’t happen with daychat this doesn’t either.

Pine was widely scumread at this point in the game. I don’t see scum going “Hey do intent so we can get the protective out of your lynch”

I was still arguing rather loudly I didn’t think Pine was scum and there was a lot of motion towards other wagons.

There was a lot of wagoning of Eevee (the protective) as well. That helps to influence my read.

Therefore Dunn is a townread. As I said earlier Lycanfire doesn’t throw that hissy fit as scum.

So to me it’s between Trinity and Hiraki and I will respond to the rest of the posts later tonight or tomorrow

What doesn’t make sense to me, Dunn, is why you told Pine he ‘needed’ to get on Eevee? And then Pine said it was an implied threat. Doesn’t look like a threat to me. It looks like Pine trying to deflect a bad post from Dunn.

I don’t agree with you, Math, I think the exchange is pretty suspicious. Especially, as you noted, Pine was being scumread at that point. It doesn’t follow to me that ‘therefore’ Dunn is a townread. I also don’t think he has done as much as others in the way of scum hunting (not that I can talk, I know, I haven’t been great at it).

I had originally thought Hiraki was the last scum, probably mainly because Wisdom said so, and he was right about Pine. Not a great reason, I know! Hiraki has been scummy previously in being on again/off again on Eevee and Pine, but I’ve liked some of his more recent posts. It’s either Hiraki or Dunn for me at this point.

Hiraki, can you explain why you’re voting Dunn? Sorry if I’ve missed it above, I’m posting on an ipad so it’s tricky quoting or viewing posts.

[TrinityNZ]

For context I disagree when you say Mathblade looks like the last scum

I was thinking Hiraki with off chance at trinity with you being the question mark

Why do you think Hiraki? I’m open to being convinced.

[TrinityNZ]

For context I disagree when you say Mathblade looks like the last scum

I was thinking Hiraki with off chance at trinity with you being the question mark

Why do you think Hiraki? I’m open to being convinced.

Dunnstral are you going to answer?

[TrinityNZ]

What doesn’t make sense to me, Dunn, is why you told Pine he ‘needed’ to get on Eevee?

Wasn't the gamestate like pine vs eevee wagons at the time?

He needed to be on eevee or he was being lynched instead - I think that's what I meant

Oh OK that makes sense.

[TrinityNZ]

Yep I’m pretty sure it’s Hiraki or Dunnstral.

VOTE: deadline

@mastina can we have a vote count please?

<<< Tag fixed. >>>

[TrinityNZ]

I keep forgetting this game is a thing

I'm voting Hiraki, do other people think something else is going to happen?

Yes Trinity.

Sigh. Ok so your second choice is Hiraki?

We are voting for deadline as otherwise the game will go on forever.

[TrinityNZ]

VOTE: TrinityNZ

Ank do something......

And Dunnstral...

[TrinityNZ]

why do I get the feeling that a mathblade kill confscums trinitynz

I bet that’s what they want you to think. I know I was completely wrong about Hiraki, but have a look at Dunnstral - it must be him.

[TrinityNZ]

I mean, Dunnstral has been passive and done pretty much nothing to advance the game.

[TrinityNZ]

Captains Log:

I think it's just me and a couple of corpses here today. Some kind of measures might need to be taken in order to ensure a fair and orderly trial for all participants.

I might need an ice cream at this rate.

My thinking is that, if you look at Dunstraal’s iso, he has barely done anything to try to hunt scum or advance the game. I know I’m not a great player, and have been called lazy more than once, but he makes me look good. So, yes, I could be incorrect again, but I’m attributing that lack of engagement to him being scum. He does nothing and we all turn on each other. Seems to be working so far. I would like to hear from you though Dunn as to why it’s not you.

[TrinityNZ]

Can I just

Can you just...?

[TrinityNZ]

I'm leaning Hiraki and I'm wondering why they're jumping at me

So here’s the thing. There are only three of us left. I know I’m town. One of you is town. If whoever is town votes for me, scum will too, and then town loses.

Dunn you are the most likely scum, you are not making any effort to either scum hunt or convince me that you’re town. If you wanted town to win you would at least try.

[TrinityNZ]

Do I need to :EFFORT:

No idea what you mean? Do you need to make an effort? Yes if you are town and want town to win...

[TrinityNZ]

Do I need to :EFFORT:

I mean you can look at the night kill if you want

Who is more likely to nightkill mathblade when his stances yesterday was "Never lynch Dunn, mafia have to kill one of us, also Trinity is the last scum"

In before "it's wifom" - but mathblade wasn't confirmed town or anything

Only thing that gives me pause is that I could see you killing mathblade or anyone but trinity without affecting how you play this day out

I'm at like 80:20 right now for it being trinity

You’re still not saying why it’s not you. I think I’ve asked you several times. Your lack of any attempt to answer strikes me as suspicious.

Could you explain what ‘in before it’s wifom’ means thanks?

[TrinityNZ]

It’s really hard to know what to do now. If I vote someone and I’m wrong, scum will immediately vote that person and then I’ll feel responsible for losing the game. So I don’t want to vote first!

What are you two thinking? It would be good to hear your thoughts on strategy.

[TrinityNZ]

I'm just not motivated to hunt through the thread, honestly.

But I have a vacation coming up before too long so I don't have really any excuse not to have the game solved within around a week

So your thoughts on strategy are...?

[TrinityNZ]

Idk what you mean by strategy

Mine is to vote when I'm confident in a scumread

Your strategy for getting to a scum read...

[TrinityNZ]

I meant your strategy for this particular part of the game. I note you haven’t answered my question Dunn.

[TrinityNZ]

Oh, general strategy for LyLo?

I don't have a lot of LyLo games, tbh. Most of the time as scum I'm caught long before then, and as town I'm generally nightkilled before LyLo unless I'm completely disengaged. BUT, I'm also the designated mislynch when I'm in that scenario, so it's easy to just look through the thread at the last scum and build a case on them. The one game I was in LyLo as town without being the designated mislynch, I had the last scum caught at day start and simply failed to convince the second other town to vote alongside me since I had burned all my influence with them beforehand.

But, general strategy for scum... well, that's hard to really answer since scum-me would never have pushed Hiraki down Day Five like I did.

Thanks. This is my first time in LYLO. This game could go on forever unless someone makes the first move.

[TrinityNZ]

<<< I hope you didn't forget about this game! >>>

I think we need a deadline

[TrinityNZ]

popping in before work to specifically not hammer

So that means it’s Dunnstral who’s scum. I’m sure now.

VOTE: Dunnstral

[TrinityNZ]

I'm over halfway through (up to the eevee lynch) and one slot is looking fairly scum while the other is looking fairly town (both fairly consistently too)

I think this game is close to a wrap but I still will take into account what either of you want to say over the next 12ish hours if there's anything I might be missing regarding thought processes and the like

I would just try to say again in my defence that I have tried to hunt down scum in this game, whereas Dunnstral has made a minimal amount of effort. I’m sure you will have noticed that in your investigations. Despite repeated questions from me, Dunnstral has not really answered anything, and has just coasted along, trying to stay under the radar.

It will be interesting to hear what Dunnstral has to say, if anything.

[TrinityNZ]

Okay, so even though I don't have a whole lot of experience in LyLo (predominantly when I'm in LyLo, it's more I'm the designated mislynch due to being heavily disengaged), I should in theory have the correct type of mindset for solving games that reach this point.

First of all, just looking back throughout the first couple of in-game days, there's a big discrepancy between SirCakez and Dunnstral in how they post. Dunnstral throughout the game hasn't had very many particularly impressive sounding posts and he has had one of the worst track records in the entire game with activity (only beaten by myself), but I've been able to roughly piece together what his thought processes are when he does post. SirCakez, however, doesn't have an underlying thought process behind what he posts, his posting is weirdly jagged and all over the place.

With interactions, I'm ignoring Kokichi entirely because I'm pretty well convinced by this point that trying to analyze anything that Kokichi does is just a waste of time in pretty much every context. But, Pine has some really interesting interactions. Mainly, his interactions with Dunnstral don't strike me at all as a SvS mindset, it strikes me more as a "Dunnstral that doesn't know that Pine is scum" and a "Pine that knows Dunnstral is town" type interaction. The way that they interact doesn't really gel with how I'm reading Pine playing through the game. The Cakez slot... has interestingly few interactions with Pine, which makes me wonder if it's on purpose.

Regarding kills, I think a lot of them were targeted at the more active people in the game. Momrangal is the only one that I don't quite get under this umbrella, but that can be explained away by Kokichi being replaced out on Day Two, since... well, it's Kokichi. He probably has drastically different priorities in scumkills than most other players. The rest I don't remember especially having great reads from what I saw. But Umlaut was highly engaged, Wisdom was highly engaged, LuckyOtter was highly engaged, and Mathblade was highly engaged. I firmly believe that scum were looking to bank on apathy and general disinterest to hide the last scum, which could even have been as a result of Pine having to claim doctor on day two. This indicates to me that the last scum's scumgame is likely weak. This in turn makes me think that it's unlikely I'm having the wool specifically pulled over my eyes in order to be manipulated into this situation. It doesn't feel planned enough for that to be the case, so I'm more confident that the reads that jump out to me are more likely to be correct than the ones I would probably get from deeply analyzing the game.

Now, the last thing that really jumps out to me is the responses I got when I reaction tested both slots today. Both slots... honestly had disappointing results. However, Dunnstral's response was more town than Trinity's was. Dunnstral pushed a point I made and didn't take the bait I laid for him. I think scum-him would've been warier with the language I was using to describe my read, primarily, although this is kind of weak and isn't very convincing as a town tell. However, I laid a different trap for Trinity at the start of the day, which she set off squarely in a scum-mindset way. It was a deflection of my suspicion rather than an attempt to sort me or an effort to actually convince me that Dunnstral was scum over her.

That's ultimately what I think is going on here. Dunnstral, while his content by itself isn't particularly impressive, shines as a reasonable town slot in a game where he just got put under a lot of fire as one of scum's designated winning mislynches. SirCakez/TrinityNZ (I'm not counting Magna's... threeish posts) both had weird thought processes, bad interactions with flipped scum, and overall just don't match with the game as town. Everything I'm seeing points to Trinity being the last scum.

Fingers crossed.

VOTE: TrinityNZ

Sigh. Mafia wins.

[TrinityNZ]

well this is why I'm going back to retirement

I really thought you would see that Dunnstral had done suspiciously fuck all this game, but I have to take responsibility for not making a good enough case.

[TrinityNZ]

I meant your strategy for this particular part of the game. I note you haven’t answered my question Dunn.

FWIW, my strategy for how to play LYLO as town is to vote for obvscum, and if there isn't obvscum vote for whoever I would feel most bad losing to. At least that way, if I lose I have the consolation of being legitimately outplayed. It also prevents stagnation and a deadline lynch, which is usually more likely to be on me than a non deadline lynch.

From that point, (knowing a conftown or having already lost) it's pretty easy to make a case and try to convince the town player to go along with me. Just play the ISO game and talk exclusively to the person you know is town. If the other player raises a point worth addressing, say why it is wrong as succinctly as possible, and get back to trying to get them lynched. You know they're scum, so you have the best chance of being able to figure out what proves that. Of course, the reason I made it to LYLO as town was probably because my reads were super bad that game and I'm probably going to lose the LYLO, but being proactive is always a good start. The big thing to take away from it is to always learn something from your completed games. As long as you improve your play in the future you're doing the right thing.

Thanks Jingle. You’re right. As soon as Anka didn’t immediately vote for me after Dunn had, I knew that Anka was town. I should have made a more compelling case than ‘Dunn must be scum because he hasn’t done much’.