Excalibur [Endgame]

[Nancy Drew 39]

They only get the vig if they're Arthur, which they will never know unless Merlin confirms.

And if they’re wrong, it’s weaker than desperado because it doesn’t matter if the wrong knight tries to vig scum.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Anyone can secretly claim Excalibur during the night, and transform into a Bulletproof Vigilante. It will be publicly announced that the sword has been claimed, but not the identity of the player who claimed it.
If you are not the rightful owner of the sword, you will die instead of your target when you try to vig someone. If a Mafia-aligned player claims Excalibur, then he/she will immediately die.

So the claimant gets to be bulletproof? So, then whomever is Merlin, should ideally claim the sword, right?

[Nancy Drew 39]

Throwing out a thought:
If scum claims Excalibur, they die immediately.
Town can vote on someone to claim Excalibur for the day. ONLY that person claims at night. If they're scum it remains unclaimed, lynch next day. If there's a claim treat them like an IC the next day.

Sure. Give me Excalibur.

Town should probably vote for a consensus scumread to claim Excalibur, for maximum benefit. If they're scum they can't claim and we get a confirmation in the night. If they're not scum and claim we know they're IC -- they're gonna either contribute the next day and kill themselves, or Merlin confirms they're Arthur and we move on.

Yeah, I was thinking that too. Anyone who is scumread can prove they’re town by claiming the sword and attempting to vig another consensus scumread. So then, Merlin shouldn’t claim the sword.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Re: LL and Jay, I think it's better overall to discuss mechanics and find out a good strategy at this stage, instead of starting with the accusations already. *Shrug*

This is scumsided. Early interactions and reads are crucial and giving scum the time to hide behind mechanics talk to provide "content" is allowing them the luxury of coasting early.

FoS

I think we should do both. We do need an optimal strategy and we need to figure out who’s scum, because the two obviously go together. We can’t have an effective strategy without also having decent scumreads.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Town should probably vote for a consensus scumread to claim Excalibur, for maximum benefit. If they're scum they can't claim and we get a confirmation in the night. If they're not scum and claim we know they're IC -- they're gonna either contribute the next day and kill themselves, or Merlin confirms they're Arthur and we move on.

I agree, if we can get the two top scumreads to gladiate each other, then the winner of the gladiation can claim the sword.

Yeah, that’s a great idea. We lynch the scummier of the two and lesser of the two scumreads either attemps to vig yet another consensus scumread and if there’s only one kill, we make them gladiate the following day and lose and so on and so on and so on, until we kill all but one scum and if the vig is actually successful, then Merlin kind of becomes irrelevant anyway.

[Nancy Drew 39]

With no other form of TPR though, the fact of the matter is it means scum should only be Merlin hunting at this point. Which Firebringer was doing.

Lady jumping to follow Unipod and Firebringer shot up on my list.

Yeah, Merlin hunting serves no purpose. Merlin needs to stay hidden until the real Arthur is confirmed by vigging and not dying.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Yeah, that’s a great idea. We lynch the scummier of the two and lesser of the two scumreads either attemps to vig yet another consensus scumread and if there’s only one kill, we make them gladiate the following day and lose and so on and so on and so on, until we kill all but one scum and if the vig is actually successful, then Merlin kind of becomes irrelevant anyway.

Echoed your sentiment especially wrt the last sentence in an earlier post. Is there some way we can make this strategy better involving Merlin's role?

If we're sorting people already, I'll town you.

Thanks.

Well, the problem is that if both Merlin and the consensus designated scumread both claim the sword - assuming of course that the designated scumread is actually town - then Merlin claiming, makes it random and therefore no way of checking that player’s alignment.

[Nancy Drew 39]

@Nancy: The bigger problem apparently is that a chunk of the playerbase will refuse to work with that, starting with LLD herself.

Well, they shouldn’t because that’s antitown. I think DVa’s hurt tags are a great idea. The two players with the most hurt tags, need to agree to gladiate each other. If players can refuse to do this, then how do we get any lynches?

[Nancy Drew 39]

Well, the problem is that if both Merlin and the consensus designated scumread both claim the sword - assuming of course that the designated scumread is actually town - then Merlin claiming, makes it random and therefore no way of checking that player’s alignment.

If we end up making Merlin claim it, he might as well -- IC then on.

Obviously yes, if we scumread Merlin, then they claim the sword - then can safely claim the following day. But the problem with that, is that the real Arthur can’t claim until Merlin dies in that case right? Because once you posses the sword you can never unclaim it. The only way the real Arthur could ever get the sword in that case, would be Merlin dying.

And if Merlin claims before they get the sword, then they’ll get NK’d. And if they say who Arthur is, then Arthur dies. So Merlin having the sword is really not much help.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Well, they shouldn’t because that’s antitown. I think DVa’s hurt tags are a great idea. The two players with the most hurt tags, need to agree to gladiate each other. If players can refuse to do this, then how do we get any lynches?

This is why I want the mechanics talk first -- get consensus on following through the strategy, THEN follow it.

There's still no guarantee some player who wants to screw around also claims the sword, no guarantee that the player holding it vigs the next night, and so on.

Why either/or? I don’t see why the two need to be mutually exclusive.

Yes, we do need an effective strategy but it’s a bad idea to let scum hide under mechanics. We need to focus on both.

[Nancy Drew 39]

This sounds reasonable, and no one that I’d want to promote this agenda for over LLD is around, so I’m in favor of this plan.

There's also a problem that she could just hold the sword and not vig anyone, destroying the point of the mechanic - and we wouldn't want to lynch her because she'd be an IC.

Why would they want to? If they aren’t Arthur they die, and their influence dies with them.
This looks like a scum thought.

I think Gamma is town for this. Because he’s obviously right. Merlin having the sword defeats the entire purpose of their role.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Obviously yes, if we scumread Merlin, then they claim the sword - then can safely claim the following day. But the problem with that, is that the real Arthur can’t claim until Merlin dies in that case right? Because once you posses the sword you can never unclaim it. The only way the real Arthur could ever get the sword in that case, would be Merlin dying.

And if Merlin claims before they get the sword, then they’ll get NK’d. And if they say who Arthur is, then Arthur dies. So Merlin having the sword is really not much help.

I mean in the worst case, we get an IC for the rest of the game. Merlin killing themselves just to let the sword out in public makes this go to the previous state, so not so useful IMO

How can Merlin ever be confirmed IC? Only, the real Arthur can do that by vigging sucessfully.

[Nancy Drew 39]

with the cost of losing your ability to lead from then on, or to hold fast and remain an influence to town’s benefit?

Relatively new to the site, is there any individual who has reads much better than random?

Nancy, his post has nothing to do with Merlin holding the sword.

That isn’t the post I quoted. Gamma is agreeing with me that Merlin having the sword, defeats the entire purpose of his role - to help confirm Arthur. And Merlin can never be IC, only the real Arthur can and if Merlin claims the sword, we can never find that out until Merlin dies, so Merlin should absolutely never claim the sword.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Merlin having the sword defeats the entire purpose of their role.

What do you think is a good strategical direction to begin with? The previous parts where you agreed with top scumreads gladiating and winner claiming to shoot the next day, that also kinda doesn't involve Merlin. Unless Merlin decides to confirm IFF Arthur is holding it, in which case it brings up the question of what the holder should do, which I brought up.

Merlin getting the sword means they're an IC anyway, no?

Merlin getting the sword does confirms them town, so yes but how are they more useful to town than any other townie, since anyone other than Arthur cannot vig with it and Merlin prevents the real Arthur from ever getting the sword, because they are the only townie who cannot be Arthur.

[Nancy Drew 39]

What are you saying? Why can only the real Arthur be IC?
If it's guaranteed only one player is claiming the sword, and the sword holder says he's Merlin, why will you NOT treat him as IC? That the sword has been claimed means scum didn't claim it.
That would be a terrible fakeclaim especially if the real Merlin's still hanging around.

No, obviously anyone who claims the sword, will be confirmed town. The point is that unless Merlin loses the gadiate, it’s pointless otherwise for him to try to claim the sword.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Nancy, I have a suspicion you read the setup mechanics wrong. Or I did, correct me if I did.

I still very confused about some aspects of it, like we get a gladiate to happen. I do understand that the point of the Merlin role, is to confirm Arthur and since Merlin can never be Arthur, it’s better that they not claim the sword, unless they absolutely have to. Merlin should never volunteer to take the sword.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Merlin getting the sword does confirms them town, so yes but how are they more useful to town than any other townie, since anyone other than Arthur cannot vig with it and Merlin prevents the real Arthur from ever getting the sword, because they are the only townie who cannot be Arthur.

Then you're agreeing with me. I said IN worst case, at least we have that one IC anyway.

Yes but at some point, if the real Arthur is still in the game, Merlin would probably need to fake vig at that point to allow Arthur to have it. But the one problem with the confitown by sword claiming theory, is that it can only work until that player attempts to vig, because once any player has it and doesn’t use it, it cannot be claimed by another player, so no one should claim but the consensus scumread.

[Nancy Drew 39]

No, obviously anyone who claims the sword, will be confirmed town. The point is that unless Merlin loses the gadiate, it’s pointless otherwise for him to try to claim the sword.

If Merlin loses the gladiate, he dies.
The 'unless' being the 'worst case' I was referring to, where he's forced to gladiate and

wins

the gladiate.

Can you point out the part where I've contradicted myself, seeing otherwise as we're in agreement about this?

Also, your basis for a townread on Gamma is that he pointed out something that's not really that hard to deduce? How strong is this townread?

I know that INDEPENDENT of the previous discussed strategy, if Merlin simply claims the sword it's discarding the Merlin mechanic, but I still won't be quick to dismiss that idea so fast, much less townread someone for that. Also, previous challenge is still up where you come up with a strat that makes use of both the Merlin and Arthur mechanics.

He pointed out the redundancy of Merlin claiming the sword. The game just started, I don’t have any strong reads yet. I do have a really good idea that makes use of both but stating it, would just help scum. We need to both keep Merlin hidden and not give scum any clues about how Merlin should confirm Arthur. We also don’t want scum to figure out who Arthur is. If Arthur is the one who has claimed the sword, that is when Merlin can publically confirm it. At that point, Merlin just becomes a regular townie and we get our vig.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Yes but at some point, if the real Arthur is still in the game, Merlin would probably need to fake vig at that point to allow Arthur to have it. But the one problem with the confitown by sword claiming theory, is that it can only work until that player attempts to vig, because once any player has it and doesn’t use it, it cannot be claimed by another player, so no one should claim but the consensus scumread.

So Merlin's trading his life for the *chance* that Arthur takes hold of it and gets vigging abilities?
The problem you're stating is what I'm stating as well - the person not following through. It's effectively 11/12 suicide the next night.

All matters are settled with duels, not lynches. Each of you may publicly challenge another to a duel, which gladiates the two of you.

@Mod, how do we even make the gladiates happen?

[Nancy Drew 39]

1. *Consensus scumread gladiates next highest scumread*
2. Winner HAS to be the only person to claim
3. (If Merlin's alive) Merlin confirms if Arthur the next day, says nothing if not, thus confirming to town that yesterday's winner isn't Arthur
4. ???

Also, what are the advantages to town IF Arthur does get a hold of Excalibur? How much does it swing town's winning chances?

Pedit: Nancy, why would stating that idea help scum? Would you state it at a later point in the day? O.o

If Merlin knows that Arthur holds Excalibur, then he needs to confirm Arthur -

after

he has the sword obviously - and he can start safely vigging consensus scum.

[Nancy Drew 39]

A person simply challenges another player, that's already given.
We'll need our own consensus mechanic to unofficially *make* a gladiate to happen, if we want town to be in control of it.
That's what we were discussing a few pages ago.
One proposal is that we use HURT tags, and when majority is reached, the player gladiates another scumread. (Maybe the second-highest HURT).

Yes but how do we force any player to duel? Why can’t scum just refuse? What’s stopping them from doing this? If there is no mechanic to force duels, then I don’t know how we ever get lynches.

[Nancy Drew 39]

You Bold and scream I'M DUELING THIS PLAYER, Nancy.

So, that person HAS to accept then, right?

[Nancy Drew 39]

A person simply challenges another player, that's already given.
We'll need our own consensus mechanic to unofficially *make* a gladiate to happen, if we want town to be in control of it.
That's what we were discussing a few pages ago.
One proposal is that we use HURT tags, and when majority is reached, the player gladiates another scumread. (Maybe the second-highest HURT).

Yes but how do we force any player to duel? Why can’t scum just refuse? What’s stopping them from doing this? If there is no mechanic to force duels, then I don’t know how we ever get lynches.

Just imagine the most townread player challenges a scummy player. We get to hang the scummy guy.

All it takes is for someone to challenge. We don't need both to agree, only 1.

Oh okay then. So anyone - other than Merlin - should do this, if they’re convinced they’ve found scum. Got it.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Merlin outting when arthur already has the sword and neither are under suspicion seems pretty anti-town to me.

You Bold and scream I'M DUELING THIS PLAYER, Nancy.

So, that person HAS to accept then, right?

There's nothing about accepting, they're just dueled

You Bold and scream I'M DUELING THIS PLAYER, Nancy.

So, that person HAS to accept then, right?

Dang it Nancy. It's non-consensual. They get challenged anyway first come first serve.

Yeah thanks, I’ve got it now.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I STRONGLY feel that if Arthur has the sword, Merlin should confirm it. NOT confirming that is anti-town.

There's no reason for Merlin to out though, we just lose a confirmed town the next night for no reason

Arthur can try shooting just like anybody else... it's a vig, not a cop, it's not absolutely critical that we make use of it's power right away

If Merlin knows that Arthur has claimed the sword, why shouldn’t they confirm it? How does it help town if Arthur doesn’t know he’s Arthur and has the sword. Unless, you’re suggesting that anyone who has the sword must also attrmpt to vig? But since this is not a desperado role, that only results in dead townies, so having Merlin confirm Arthur after he already has the sword makes sense, doesn’t it?

Okay, you’re suggesting that Merlin wait with that knowledge? But here’s the obvious problem with that idea. How can we be certain that scum doesn’t kill Merlin BEFORE he can confirm Arthur?

[Nancy Drew 39]

Oh okay then. So anyone - other than Merlin - should do this, if they’re convinced they’ve found scum. Got it.

Not unless they want to be lynched

Yolodueling is precisely what made town lose in BoR

Well with Nico anyway. Yes, that’s why no one should challenge anyone before we’ve got a consensus target via hurt tags.

[Nancy Drew 39]

If Merlin knows that Arthur has claimed the sword, why shouldn’t they confirm it?

Because arthur ALREADY HAS THE SWORD and all merlin confirming doing is telling him to shoot it - something that they are likely to do within 1-2 nights anyway, and even if they don't shoot it it's /just/ a vig, I think I'd rather have an additional confirmed town hidden away

How does Merlin get confirmed without confirming Arthur?

[Nancy Drew 39]

useless fights are gonna be more useful in the scumhunting game though

I'm blown away that you think useless fights won't kill player interest but 7 pages of opening discussion will

Gladiations immediately limit town scumhunting potential and lock the dayphase into two people. That will nuke *my* interest in the game if people start doing it, which is precisely why I want town to be aware that yolo-dueling will result in the yoloing player getting lynched every time. There is nothing more boring to me than seeing two townreads gladiate each other because one had a momentary fleeting thought that the other was scum.

Town doing shitty gladiates on other town is pretty much the foundation of the scum wincon here because the gladiation mechanic will mean that until the lynch goes through they don't have to commit to any other read on any other player and can coast--and town will want to coast too. Basically gladiations force the town to come to standstill until someone dies.

Okay, I think DVa is town here, probably my strongest townread so far. Both this and the hurt tags idea, are far more likely to come from town than scum.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Unless, you’re suggesting that anyone who has the sword must also attrmpt to vig? But since this is not a desperado role, that only results in dead townies, so having Merlin confirm Arthur after he already has the sword makes sense, doesn’t it?

If one person grabs the sword and never tries to shoot it, then arthur never gets ahold of it in the first place though

If they don't vig they're confirmed town, yes, which is useful in it's own right (in fact, if arthur never grabs the sword then we have, potentially, an additional confirmed town to narrow things down), BUT it also means we have less power to try to put the sword on other people

Yes that’s the thing. I think whomever claims the sword should the following night, agree to maybe attempt a town consensus vig.

[Nancy Drew 39]

If Merlin knows that Arthur has claimed the sword, why shouldn’t they confirm it?

Because arthur ALREADY HAS THE SWORD and all merlin confirming doing is telling him to shoot it - something that they are likely to do within 1-2 nights anyway, and even if they don't shoot it it's /just/ a vig, I think I'd rather have an additional confirmed town hidden away

How does Merlin get confirmed without confirming Arthur?

I mean after Arthur's outed, they can only just claim to be Merlin. Premise being that scum wouldn't fakeclaim/counterclaim Merlin.

They would get confirmed once Arthur has the sword and they tell them to shoot and Arthur doesn’t die.

[Nancy Drew 39]

If Merlin knows that Arthur has claimed the sword, why shouldn’t they confirm it?

Because arthur ALREADY HAS THE SWORD and all merlin confirming doing is telling him to shoot it - something that they are likely to do within 1-2 nights anyway, and even if they don't shoot it it's /just/ a vig, I think I'd rather have an additional confirmed town hidden away

How does Merlin get confirmed without confirming Arthur?

They don't until we're near the end of the game, before mylo/lylo

And when they are, they can claim merlin

But how does that confirm Merlin? The only way that Merlin is ever confirmed is if they identify Arthur before he attempts to vig. Once Arthur vigges, anyone can claim Merlin. If that actually happens is maybe where a final gladiate would happen, I suppose.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I mean after Arthur's outed, they can only just claim to be Merlin.

NO... Merlin is still confirmed town, we know there's only 1 merlin in the setup, regardless of what arthur is doing with the sword

Merlin outting means he dies next night - there's no protection for him, if he doesn't die he lives on as a hidden IC that scum have to look for

Oh okay, I see now.

[Nancy Drew 39]

like d.va I said earlier that someone who rando-gladiates early should be PLed
that's def not what I want

Disagree that it should be a direct

Policy Lynch

, this almost feels like pre-emptive opportunism.

Why? Rando-gladiating is terrible for town. If they gladiate and actually lynch scum, than obviously they wouldn’t be policy lynched.

What’s to prevent scum from yolo lynching?

[Nancy Drew 39]

Ya'll are hard over-thinking this shit, which, imo, is what scum wants.
It's really fuckin' simple.

Everyone tries to claim sword N1.
Whoever gets it enjoys being BP and can claim if they need to confirm as IC if dueled.
If Merlin survives to D2, Merlin claims to become IC and, if he knows Arthur has the sword, he says so and Arthur keeps their mouth shut or
if he knows Arthur doesn't have the sword then he claims who Arthur is and boom
Town has 2 ICs on D2 and a secret BP IC or
Town has 1 IC on D2 and a secret BP Vig IC
If Non-confirmed-Arthur town gets the sword, they never attempt to vig with it because they are just going to shoot themselves in the foot 12 out of 14 times.

And that's it.
There's no more optimal play around it.
If you try to publicly gate who goes for the sword, you don't account for
1. Townies that disregard this shit
2. Scum having control of killing claimants/not
Basically playing around it as a public cop only works once and even then it's iffy.

Our goal should be to shut the fuck up and stop tilting who may or may not be Merlin and just scumhunt
There's no more point to discussing the Sword mechanics.

+1

Agree, everyone obviously except for Merlin.

Yeah, I’m starting to get a headache over it.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Agree with Varsoon's post, also TR on Varsoon.

They would get confirmed once Arthur has the sword and they tell them to shoot and Arthur doesn’t die.

Ah, nevermind - when you said "confirming Arthur" I read it as Merling having to confirm Arthur, not Arthur being confirmed to town. Sorry about that.

Agree that Varsoon’s post likely comes from town and no problem.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Once Arthur vigges, anyone can claim Merlin.

Who cares if Merlin gets cc'd if it's before lylo

Scum probably doesn’t because it would put suspicion on them why they haven’t been NK’d.

[Nancy Drew 39]

How is there more value in having a pointless stealth IC than there is in townclearing the next day's lynch or mislynch?

And you are ignoring the possibility that the *next consensus scumread is scum* in which case we get a GUILTY and the sword is unclaimed and then we get to use the test again.

Do you not get that?

You guys are not playing toward best case scenario.

Best case scenario:
We force top two scumreads to gladiate
The winner is forced to claim sword
But they're scum so they don't and it remains unclaimed
Then we lynch them and rinse, repeat the next day

Like you all are thinking only of sword giving us an IC but it's *way more valuable* as having the potential to give us guilties

Effectively it gives us the chance to have a public daycop and a lynch each day phase

So no, "everyone claims the sword" is a shit plan

Agree and doubling down on DVa townread. We should follow DVa.

[Nancy Drew 39]

like d.va I said earlier that someone who rando-gladiates early should be PLed
that's def not what I want

Disagree that it should be a direct

Policy Lynch

, this almost feels like pre-emptive opportunism.

Why? Rando-gladiating is terrible for town. If they gladiate and actually lynch scum, than obviously they wouldn’t be policy lynched.

What’s to prevent scum from yolo lynching?

If EVERYONE is on the same page that it is terrible for town, sure.
I've just a general distrust that town players wouldn't rando-gladiate out of what they think are strong scumreads.
PL'd in the sense of *that* gladiate itself, not in the future.
I think scum would be warier than to YOLO lynch and screw themselves over, anyway.

Why couldn’t scum yolo mislynch or yolobus? I wouldn’t necessarily assume a yolo gladiater is town.

[Nancy Drew 39]

so long as both are in setup killing Merlin before claim wipes 2 ICs off the map.

You know what else wipes 2 ics off the map? Merlin claiming and saying who arthur is day 2

Yeah, Merlin should especially never claim before Arthur has Excalibur, or we will just get 2 ICs die - back to back.

Think Dunn might also be town.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Stealth IC would be wonderful if one of our stealth ICs wasn't entirely contingent on the other Stealth IC being alive.
Every single day that Merlin doesn't claim after N1 is another night where scum potentially wipes 2 ICs out with one kill.

But Merlin should never claim before Arthur has the sword, otherwise scum either kills Merlin before he can confirm Arthur or if he confirms Arthur before he has the sword, then scum would kill Arthur first, then Merlin next.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Agree and doubling down on DVa townread. We should follow DVa.

The problems Varsoon and I have posed haven't been answered -- that plan is reliant on amazing town cohesion which is far fetched.
I'm following Varsoon till DVa/Dunnstral prove otherwise that Varsoon is incorrect.

I’m still confused as to which is the better plan. One thing I’m sure of is, that Merlin should never claim until after Arthur has the sword.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Yeah, Merlin should especially never claim before Arthur has Excalibur, or we will just get 2 ICs die - back to back.

Think Dunn might also be town.

2 ICs who also can be trusted to lead town on D2, and one who can be trusted on D3, ALSO with a hidden BP.

nancy who is scum?

I don’t know yet. Why are you asking me specifically?

[Nancy Drew 39]

@DVa: Actually, I'm not going to let my disdain that town can't all work together destroy any attempt to.
I'll be fully happy if town CAN commit to that.
I, for one, am ready to commit to a best-case scenario.

@Varsoon: Cool, foolproof plan is fine, but I do think we should attempt to see if players ARE willing to work together first. You're saying you'll claim the sword ONLY because you don't think this is possible, so for now you can set this aside and see, right?

@Nancy: My opinion's above -- I think we should try reaching consensus and see if enough town are willing to stick to a plan, and THEN decide whether to fall back to Varsoon's.

The one problem I see with everyone claiming, is that it’s randomized, so only one person still gets it.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Yeah, Merlin should especially never claim before Arthur has Excalibur, or we will just get 2 ICs die - back to back.

Think Dunn might also be town.

2 ICs who also can be trusted to lead town on D2, and one who can be trusted on D3, ALSO with a hidden BP.

nancy who is scum?

I don’t know yet. Why are you asking me specifically?

What about my post 275? O.o

No direct connection with your post. I was going to respond to this but I think I did that already, if indirectly.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Having 3 ICs on D2 gives us a lynch pool of 12 players with 4 scum in it assuming a ML on D1.
You being all "Oh nooo scum shoots one of them then"
So what then? If we ML D2 then D3 is still 2 ICs with a lynch pool of 10 with 4 scum in it.
"Oh nooo scum shot the other IC"
Okay great we STILL have 1 BULLETPROOF IC with a lynch pool of 8 with 4 scum in it which is a 50/50 LYLO which is way better than most LYLO odds.

People who think the ICs should stay unclaimed don't understand optimal use of the role in how it narrows lynch pools and certifies town voices.

@Nancy: Arthur never gets the sword in DVa's scenario.
In fact, unless Town is willing to literally suicide itself, Arthur doesn't get the sword most of the time in this game anyway.
It's not reasonable to try to play towards Arthur getting the sword and Arthur having the sword just gives us a Vigilante shot which, realistically, just hits town more often than scum anyway and throttles us towards loss.

@Auro: Fat chance. I'm always going after the sword because DVa's plan throws away Bulletproof for not-really-a-cop shot that doesn't work most of the time.

Okay, I can see that her plan relies heavily on town cohesion. If Heroes is any example - where town was expected to send in cohesive votes - then someone having the sword and being able to possibly vig, is better than no one having it.

I think you and DVa are both equally sincere, so I’m townreading both of you for it.

[Nancy Drew 39]

@Varsoon: Not my point, I'm not saying we should follow DVa's proposed plan.
I'm saying that we should actually feel out whether town cohesion is possible, but I think this would be more relevant when a provably good cohesion-reliant strategy is proposed, anyway.

I've played multiple games with DVa can wholly see where DVa's coming from though, I think you're wrong on the scumread of her.
I think Nancy sees this too.

@Nancy: Oh, okay -- I guess Varsoon responded to your direct/indirect response anyway. What do you think of that?

Yeah, I can see his point but I can also see DVa’s as well. This game is confusing because of the different mechanics, so I’m judging the reactions more by intent than anything else.

[Nancy Drew 39]

@nancy because I'm trying to ferret out scumreads from people as an alternative to the ongoing "plan" battle and you're one of those people arguing

Okay, fair enough. I will let you know as soon as I have any. The problem is trying to differentiate between people genuinely confused about the setup and people intentionally trying to hurt town, which isn’t the easiest thing in this type of setup. Eventhough I’m not in favour of policy lynches in general, your strong reaction against yolo gladiating is more likely to come from town, so I’m townreading you for that.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I would say yes, but in LLD’s case I trust her to be effective at leading and not fooled by bad reasoning.

I don't, especially considering she was making reads off two/three early posts.

I didn’t understand her strong UT townread. I’m not scumreading him rn but what has he done that makes him obvtown?

[Nancy Drew 39]

The problem is trying to differentiate between people genuinely confused about the setup and people intentionally trying to hurt town, which isn’t the easiest thing in this type of setup.

Nancy, I get a bad feeling from the people who swoop in to HURT because I was talking about setup/strat and obviously had the chance of putting out a thought that could be sub-optimal, while also open to correcting myself. Seems a tad bit opportunistic, no?

I don't think Nancy meant the HURT vote tag

Cakes is correct, I was not referring to that, rather to having bad intentions.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I don't think Nancy meant the HURT vote tag

I know that. I was talking about myself. I was agreeing with her in that it's hard to differentiate, and then leading to the conclusion that someone who swoops in to attack someone talking about it for having a wrong thought or two seems opportunistic.

You weren’t in Boundaries of Reality, DVa and Cakes were, so they don’t want a repeat of that - re: yolo gladiating - hence their strong stance on it. Not suggesting, you’re not - only that yolo gladiaters, should expect repercussions, if they lynch town before obtaining a town consensus.

Yes, that’s why I’m not “hurting” anyone yet, I’m doing my best to ferret out intentions, since I’m still really confused about the setup.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I don't think either of you have experience with LLD, her early unexplained reads are pretty typical
That said I totally misread her last game we played together so take caution

I don’t know much about her meta, except in Dance where she was scum. she did blatant distancing with Short and Fire.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Read post 305, Nancy.

Yes, I stand corrected.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Making proper use of the Excalibur mechanic, to my eyes, is *heavily* reliant on town working together. Individual players pushing their own reads through, as opposed to forming consensus, would be anti-town. Am I wrong?

I agree with this
Is this what you were arguing?

Yep! My point was that a stubborn player who believes their reads are totally right (When they might not be) and keeping the sword to themselves, is anti-town in general - If we follow a strategy based on passing around the sword, which would rely on town cohesion.

You can’t pass around the sword. You are not allowed to ever unclaim it. The only way it can be “passed around” is when the claiment dies.

[Nancy Drew 39]

P.edit.

If the player who has the Excalibur dies, then it becomes publicly unclaimed again. You cannot willingly unclaim the sword.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Also on the LLD note I think auro is expecting everyone in this game to play logically and that definitely won't happen knowing some of these players...

I’m assuming you mean LLD, won’t play logically. Anyone else? It’s good we don’t have Nico in this playerlist.

[Nancy Drew 39]

@DVa: Or more realistically understanding that it's fucking hard to reign in

13 other jackasses

and not hinging an entire plan around it.

In fact, fuck you, I'm going for the sword no matter what you say, so your plan can eat shit and you can die.

I admit I was shocked at reading this from Varsoon.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Lol on that note Dunn if fire, lld or ut is Merlin then literally the entire last 15 pages were for nothing

Yeah, probably liking their posts the least rn.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Also on the LLD note I think auro is expecting everyone in this game to play logically and that definitely won't happen knowing some of these players...

I’m assuming you mean LLD, won’t play logically. Anyone else? It’s good we don’t have Nico in this playerlist.

Ye and the other two players I mentioned in response to Dunn
And I don't know some of the others who haven't posted yet and FA hasn't played in a while so who knows!
P-edit: varsoon is always salty don't take it personally

Me? No, Varsoon is usually really nice to me anyway.

FA?

[Nancy Drew 39]

Oh okay then. So anyone - other than Merlin - should do this, if they’re convinced they’ve found scum. Got it.

Not unless they want to be lynched

Yolodueling is precisely what made town lose in BoR

I think a better read for determining the effect of yolodueling is Transformers Mafia, as that had a real duel mechanic rather than something akin to it

Can you link it? Thanks.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Hello

14 pages to read and I'm kinda busy today but I'll try to catch up in first possible time - in my breaks.

I just saw my name in this page and if by not playing logically you mean gladiating someone randomly or going against a decided plan for trying to pick up the sword - I would and will never do those things ever. If you mean I have my special play style yeah I do

Oh hi, I didn’t even realize you were on this playerlist.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Also Vigs in a setup this large are kind of anti-town until later in the game in emergency ANYWAY, so............

We shouldn't be worried about Arthur or Merlin too much. Just focus on getting a confirmed town and lynching scummy people.

Glad we're on the same page ms Lambdadelta

if anything I followed LLD?

I don't believe UT and Lady are partners for obv reason although I don't see the reason they're mostly scumread for the posting they've made so far at all anyway.

this is gonna be one of those games i see

I've skipped every post until this one because of how much Auro is mech talking with Nancy and getting nothing done.
The only thing I have to note is while I don't really agree fully with Gamma's scumread of Auro I think he believes it so he can be part of the town.

like 5 players haven't even posted yet and 3 others have single digit post counts
it's just really unnecessarily messy, if you will

Agreed. I wish Auro would stop talking mechs and post more scumreads because it's just clogging the thread at this point and is honestly not that helpful what so ever. He could be a homunculus but I have nothing to base it on besides annoyance. SirCakez is town

useless fights are gonna be more useful in the scumhunting game though

I'm blown away that you think useless fights won't kill player interest but 7 pages of opening discussion will

Gladiations immediately limit town scumhunting potential and lock the dayphase into two people. That will nuke *my* interest in the game if people start doing it, which is precisely why I want town to be aware that yolo-dueling will result in the yoloing player getting lynched every time. There is nothing more boring to me than seeing two townreads gladiate each other because one had a momentary fleeting thought that the other was scum.

Town doing shitty gladiates on other town is pretty much the foundation of the scum wincon here because the gladiation mechanic will mean that until the lynch goes through they don't have to commit to any other read on any other player and can coast--and town will want to coast too. Basically gladiations force the town to come to standstill until someone dies.

Should we vote and do hurt tags and have the 2 most scummy players fight each other? Yes that will keep the game not going into an ego contest and trying to play hero just like the desp game. Do I think you fellow soldiers have the self restraint? No.

like d.va I said earlier that someone who rando-gladiates early should be PLed
that's def not what I want

Disagree that it should be a direct

Policy Lynch

, this almost feels like pre-emptive opportunism.

Random gladidates depend on the context of it but I would be down to policy myself depending on the action. Take this post as you will

Yeah, based on Dance, that makes sense. That’s the only scumgame of hers, I’m familiar with but she did a lot of that weird distancy thing with Short and Fire in that.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I have townreads on Gamma/Cakez at the moment
I would vote UT//Varsoon at the moment

Agree on Gamma/Cakes. I’m not townreading UT and Varsoon’s ovveraction to DVa concerns me. I want to see the entire playerlist before I vote.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Admitting I did not read carefully through the whole mechanics thing.

But Auro (47) and Nancy ([post 70]) are you really advocating that any of us who get the sword should try to vig? The worst case scenario is 3 town dead by D2 (one lunched, one NKd, and one dead not-Arthur)—and tbh it's not actually that unlikely. Unless we're super super confident in not only getting one scum, but two, at the least there'll be two town dead. this is weird

Link post 70. I’m pretty sure that you’ve misconstrued my post.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Talking mechs is the most NAI/scummy content you can ever bring yourself to talk about because you're talking about something that is rather simple instead of scumhunting like you should be doing overall the mech talk. If you look at this game in the most basic sense it's red flag with 2 ICs with everyone having a gladiator power. If we work together on using hurt tags to put up the 2 people everyone finds the most scummy that is gonna be more useful then fighting over what the 'best plan' for the sword is. What you're doing isn't helpful it's more anti town then not

It's baffling that you're coming to the same conclusion as me but you're scumreading me for coming to that conclusion.
I don't get it.

@Nancy: Sorry, got worked up, don't really want anyone to die or anything like that, but it is frustrating that people are way overthinking this and getting taken for a ride.
I don't mean to insult anyone personally; I don't trust the entire playerlist and I think DVa's plan keeps us too mechanics focused while giving up the one strength we have from this setup.

@Auro: Misleading us how? I've been forthright with everything and I wouldn't even call it 'leading' to say we should just play the game the way it was probably designed to be played.

Okay, I feel better about you now.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Everyone let us all begin by giving our Arthur reveal.

If you don’t know what I mean I am saying we all soft Merlin role and claim a person to be Arthur.
In case Merlin is night killed/lynched by accident we have our cleared townie.

Let me begin:
Varsoon is Arthur

Fuuuuck no
Read the mechanics again.

Ah Gamma your no fun Firebringers idea was good because we the anybody who is unwilling is likely scum and the true Merlin can't say the actual Arthur so can pick somebody who is not he
therefore They who be Merlin can safely point at any other fellow muggle to distract the scum. If Merlin gets dueled/killed than we know the target is not Arthur.

How is Merlin claiming the real Arthur, all that different from everyone claiming someone other than Arthur? The problem with this strategy is, that why can’t someone accidently claim Arthur, so I don’t think I’m getting it?

[Nancy Drew 39]

@Varsoon: He said confirmed *in* LyLo, not claiming in LyLo, there's a difference, right?
You don't think Merlin/Swordholder works better as a hidden IC till the day before LyLo, as opposed to coming out in D2 where he becomes an obvious NK?

It's not confirmable.

An example from 3p LYLO.
Player 1: I'm Merlin and have the sword
Player 2: No, I'm Merlin and have the sword
Player 3: Oh no! This plan had an obvious hole in it! Who could have ever predicted it!

I don't love us trying to "solve" the game like it's a fucking math problem. What I've seen in other games when this happened was scum got to hide in mechanics talk all game instead of having to actually engage with other players.

oh and no thanks on hurt tags. I say you gladiate your scum reads. I joined this game because the mechanics were different. Let's keep it different.

The hurt tags are to establish a town consensus, so we avoid yolo dueling. Why would you be opposed to that?

[Nancy Drew 39]

HURT: LLD
HURT: UT

Also ur wrong maria

I’m not very familiar with LLD’s meta. She has different ways of playing as scum?

I know I dislike UT’s opposition to the hurt tags, if anything is clearly a good idea, it’s that one.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Basically, if Merlin dies, we lose all of our ICs because
1. Scum can claim they have the sword when they don't.
2. Merlin has to claim who Arthur is for Arthur to be IC.

This all goes to shit in a MYLO/LYLO because scum have higher incentive to fake-claim and force a 50/50 instead of taking the worse odds.

Actually, Arthur successfully vigging, also confirms them as IC.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Also, UT looks significantly worse. The post he made about taking the sword and shooting and taking the sword and shooting is awful. Whoever gets the sword should not be shooting.

Didn't like his "I'm not using hurt tags, just gladiate your scumreads" seems like his intent was to destroy any town teamwork.

+1

[Nancy Drew 39]

I'm more interested in having a unique experience than I am in trying to game the setup to be something it wasn't designed to be.

This part reads to me a lot like you saying you'd rather have fun than win the game

Looks like you're trying to lead him to say he's anti-town.
I actually weakly think UT is town.

Why?

[Nancy Drew 39]

I actually weakly think UT is town.

why?

Given the current gamestate with multiple people saying they'd policy vote gladiates, this seems like daring behavior from UT, right? Of course he might just be discouraging town cohesion, but just comes off as a troll of some sort -- wouldn't he be bit more careful as scum?

???

UT didn't gladiate anyone...

Being aggressive doesn’t make you town. Ever played with scum!Thor?

[Nancy Drew 39]

p.edit, agreeing with Dunn, that was meant for Auro.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I actually weakly think UT is town.

why?

Given the current gamestate with multiple people saying they'd policy vote gladiates, this seems like daring behavior from UT, right? Of course he might just be discouraging town cohesion, but just comes off as a troll of some sort -- wouldn't he be bit more careful as scum?

I’ve never played with scum!UT. I think that depends on meta. At any rate, opposing hurt tags reads anti-town to me.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Unless, you’re suggesting that anyone who has the sword must also attrmpt to vig? But since this is not a desperado role, that only results in dead townies, so having Merlin confirm Arthur after he already has the sword makes sense, doesn’t it?

If one person grabs the sword and never tries to shoot it, then arthur never gets ahold of it in the first place though

If they don't vig they're confirmed town, yes, which is useful in it's own right (in fact, if arthur never grabs the sword then we have, potentially, an additional confirmed town to narrow things down), BUT it also means we have less power to try to put the sword on other people

Wacky theory:
Kills happen before claiming right? So wouldn’t an attempted claim the same night a non-Arthur Town shoots get the sword? That could be a way to expedite the sword changing hands.

@FakeGod What happens if someone tries to claim when the sword is already claimed?

They can’t. Once claimed, can never be unclaimed, unless the claimant dies, I think.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Gamma Emerald -- probable town
Varsoon -- possible town
MariaR -- possible town
Dunnstral -- possible town

Something_Smart -- null
VeridianCleric -- null
SirCakez -- null
Ariane -- null
Nancy Drew 39 -- null
Frozen Angel -- MIA

Auro -- possible scum
Elsa Jay -- possible scum
Firebringer -- claimed scum
Untrod Tripod -- possible scum
Lady Lambdadelta -- possible scum
Kokichi Oma -- possible scum

only 4 scum so need to sort the town out of my possible scums at some point.

I bet I’d be a townread, if it weren’t for Dance, amirite?

[Nancy Drew 39]

Best general scumplay ATM is probably to troll around and distract from town beginning to work together, and try to draw them into gladiating at worst.

That's exactly what UT is doing but he's town to you because "would he be that bold" or something

UT doesn't seem to be trolling individuals. His perspective is valid, if not game-winning in that he also wants to have fun and not discard certain mechanics just because "optimum".

He's not triggering anyone.

He's trolling right now

+1

@Auro, why are you hard defending him for this? He is advocating a blatantly anti-town plan.

[Nancy Drew 39]

it's a non-negligible possibility, and we should be prepared to deal with it if it happens.

WHO DO YOU IMAGINE DOING THIS THOUGH?

Why is it actually a non-negligible possibility and why is it worth talking about right now when it is so remote?

You know there's no way I can objectively prove the likelihood of this. I can imagine UT doing this (set the vig apart), he literally said "just gladiate your scumreads".

Buddy if you think as king Arthur I'm going to be gladiating people you are sorely mistaken

You have no way of knowing that. Only Merlin knows who Arthur is.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Oro should I be scouting the playerlist for 'good at both town and scum, that is both hard to read and very strong to have as a town leader.' myself?

so Maria?

Well yes but I might be biased because I feel I'm above average at reading her

I wasn't necessarily agreeing with SS either, just wondering where he was going with that

So your Maria read has vastly improved since Hourglass then, good to know.

But I am liking her posts so far but then she fooled me in CoH. But for rn, I’m townreading her.

[Nancy Drew 39]

First of all that's shitty behavior because I'd be trying to remove the town's ability to choose lynches and that would make the game really not fun for everyone else

Second I wouldn't give scum an avenue to kill me even if it's remote

Third I'm not gonna pretend that only my reads are valid so other people need to be getting in there and accusing people

That’s what the hurt tags are for - which you claim to be adamantly opposed to.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Spoiler:

LLD flipped scum again it's looking like

LLD flipped scum again it's looking like

Not feeling this
HURT: Auro btw

Why? Do you know she flipped town?

Also, is talking heavily about mechanics anti-town in your opinion, or is it because you think scum's trying to hide behind the veil of mechanic discussion and achieve towncred through it?

Which part of step 3?
I STRONGLY feel that if Arthur has the sword, Merlin should confirm it. NOT confirming that is anti-town.
And if non-Arthur has the sword, Merlin shouldn't say anything. Coming out is anti-town.

Bad logic.

But I kinda feel auro is town.

gamma scummy

HURT: gamma

Compared to Witches Ball this is "aggressive"

I know compared to Varsoon it's like lying in a meadow of flowers but I'm going by how he usually sounds as town

I don't really agree with that, here are some of his first posts in witch's ball:

Spoiler:

But im most likely never gonna be obvtown nor in a "unequestionably TvT" pairing so I figured why not.

What?

You're always obv town as town. Are you trying to pocket me?

But im most likely never gonna be obvtown nor in a "unequestionably TvT" pairing so I figured why not.

What?

You're always obv town as town. Are you trying to pocket me?

Weird.

I originally interpreted that as her thinking you were expendable.

How? If shes scum she doesnt want to be stuck without someone. I'm likely to accept her since we play a lot together.

By the way I'm lynching the firebringer duo first. Whoever he pairs with

Her explanation for proposing to you was that she doesn't think she'd be one of the players to fall into one of the T-T dance pairs.

Yes because I have a tendency to get SR when im town.

In what world

Also as far as I remember troll FB is town FB so FB is town.

The fuck is this btw

Possible scum interaction

Looks just as aggressive if not more to me

@DVa what do you think of this

Kokichi was “aggressive” in BoR too. I’m null reading him atm.

[Nancy Drew 39]

It's pretty clear that he agreed with the "Let's shut up and play" part of the post, not necessarily the strategy parts. I hope this alone is not why you're scumreading him.

Is that pretty clear?

Yes. Read his later posts. He clearly said this isn't a math problem, blah blah, just wants to have fun, etc etc.
Should I go find his quotes?

Also,

FoS

: DVa. She's a lot more chatty as town, and finds it difficult to emulate that as scum.
She has had not a *single* non-serious post this game, excepting 650, a (seemingly half-hearted) response to Firebringer asking her for vids/GIFs.
DVa, do you think my meta evaluation of you is fair?

Is that necessarily a meta thing though or could the difference in her play be possibly be a result of the different and complex mechanics in this game?

But you’re right about her being more serious than usual in this game.

Have you played with scum!DVa before and is “seriousness” a part of her scum meta?

[Nancy Drew 39]

Being aggressive doesn’t make you town. Ever played with scum!Thor?

Did I townread someone for aggression?
Gladiating without town consensus is anti-town, not just aggressive.
What are you asking me, exactly?

Are you townreading UT for opposing hurt tags? Anti-town play more often than not=scum play.

[Nancy Drew 39]

@DVa:
If you're saying your chumminess is strictly as a scumhunting tool, I don't trust you on that.
If you're trying to imply that you'd discard all chumminess because of those factors in 744, then I definitely don't trust you on that.
You were pretty excited to join this game, and I doubt you'd approach it throughout with the dead-serious attitude you've been carrying the entire game.

@Nancy: I'll get to that, what do you think of the DVa meta thing?

Rn, I’d say even if true, a weak reason to scumread her, unless you have played numerous games with her and this pattern has been established.

This game is very different and mechanics heavy, so I dunno, if it’s necessarily meaningful. \_0_/

[Nancy Drew 39]

+1

@Auro, why are you hard defending him for this? He is advocating a blatantly anti-town plan.

I'm not hard-defending him.
What part of the 'blatantly anti-town plan' are you talking about? Can you go into details on this?
I clearly said I'll vote him if he gladiates without consensus in an early post.

His perspective of not overthinking mechanics, trying to get the sword and vigging people to have fun and enjoy the spirit of the game -- isn't scum-indicative to me.

Maria and Varsoon also wanted us to stop talking about mechanics but neither of them, were advocating deep sixing the hurt tags.

I also want to have “fun” and by fun, I mean not advocating for play, that helps scum.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I don't think you'd get as pissed off at the game because of that

To be clear, you think that someone telling me TO DIE in a game I play for FUN would not make me less interested in being jokey?

I do know Varsoon, as scum he was very pleasant. As town he's obnoxious. So yeah, at the moment that makes me even more annoyed, because if he claims the sword I'm dealing with a game where the most obnoxious person is going to get the sword and never use it. So no, this game has not been as fun so far as I was anticipating. So now the game is disappointing and you're trying to push a scumcase on me because this game isn't as fun as I thought it'd be.

Keep pushing it Auro. Keep pushing it and see where it gets you.

I don’t think I’d exactly characterize Varsoon’s play early tunnelling in BoR, as “pleasant”. But yeah, he absolutely should not have said what he said to you. That wasn’t cool.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I think a good day one duel would be Veridian v. Elsa, or Cakez v. UT or Auro v. Any of those names.

Make people take a stand.

Why Veridan and especially Cakes?

Cakes is one of my strongest townreads so far and I don’t see how Veridan is scummy?

[Nancy Drew 39]

Dunnstrall isn't trying to rope me into more mechanics discussion when it's already pissed me off so much the mod warned me to stop.

I'm done talking about mechanics.

Also, I really think people should look at viewtopic.php?f=11&t=77673 and try to evaluate if Auro's play here matches how he played in this scum win he literally got today. I'm way way way too close to it to make an unbiased judgment.

Holy shit, he sounds very similar here. Can someone link me to an Auro town game for comparison purposes?

[Nancy Drew 39]

random notes continued:

-This is mostly gut but I want to call this Dunn's town game.
-the trio of varsoon, LLD and UT going for the sword sounds good to me, I'm decently confident there's at least one or two scum in there
-I've noticed nancy has disappeared from the thread. could be she just went to bed but also i'm susp that she never put any scumhunting content out.
-d.va 595 is the post I would've made right around then if I was around. which I like.
-I'd really like some scumreads from Elsa too.
-I can't believe PLing an IC actually has to come up as a topic of discussion
-S_S 638 was town as shit
-I also agree with dva 640 and 648 - it's a super stupid topic
-663 was the kind of post I wanted from Veridian, excellent. It's not an especially good post (a lot of thread summary) but it'll surely be useful later once we have some flips.

I'm caught up to where I posted last night so ~6 more pages. I'd throw nancy and Kokichi in the hurt pile too but less strong on Kokichi. Plenty of good vig targets
HURT: nancy
HURT: kokichi

Why? Have you read any of my scumgames on this site? I’m guessing no.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Also I think we should limit ourselves to 2 Hurts at maximum and FoS for the rest.

Someone should also keep a list, so we don’t lose track of them.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Also I think we should limit ourselves to 2 Hurts at maximum and FoS for the rest.

I could actually be persuaded to do the whole Hurt thing if we only have one or two and keep track of it like an actual VC.

Hell, I'll even volunteer to be the person who keeps track.

Alright, feeling a bit better about you now. So, you’re main objection, was too many hurt tags?

[Nancy Drew 39]

my objection was twofold:

1. The setup is designed around dueling and I joined it specifically for that mechanic (along with the excalibur vig). People being able to say "Fuck it, 1v1" is why this setup is unique. Plus, it will force people to take stands in situations they would not have to in an ordinary setup. It's not the Hurts necessarily, it's people trying to box the entire playerlist into not playing the setup as it's designed when it was the primary reason some of us joined. I'm okay with keeping track of people's reads and top scumspects, but I think it's horseshit to tell people not the play the setup the way it's designed.

2. I am wary of any manner of play that allows people to not take real stands on their reads. That's why votes are great. If we at least treat Hurts like they're a vote and people have to actually answer for them then sure I'll acquiesce to that just being for me a method of how we keep track of reads in a voteless game and for others something more serious. We're at least basically all on the same page there. Otherwise it's wishy washy nonsense that is a waste of everyone's time and allows scum to hide.

Like, a number of people have said "omg you want to hurt TOWN COHESION" but all I saw in that plan (the one of "omg only duel if everyone agrees to it") is a way for scum to hide slash direct town to mislynches. I'm guessing the fantasy is that you'll somehow convince scum to duel each other, but I don't think that ever really happens. Otherwise my experience tells me that it's not materially any better than someone just dueling a strong scumread.

The most important thing is to keep track of them like a VC and maybe, people should order them to. Then, we can make a list of everyone’s #1 duel pick.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Why? Have you read any of my scumgames on this site? I’m guessing no.

Which of your scumgames do you think are most informative for reads on you Nancy?

Pretty much any one: Heroes, Overkill 1. I barely posted in Dance. That’s the extent of my scum history on here.

I was an SK in Overkill 1 though.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Is that necessarily a meta thing though or could the difference in her play be possibly be a result of the different and complex mechanics in this game?

But you’re right about her being more serious than usual in this game.

Have you played with scum!DVa before and is “seriousness” a part of her scum meta?

Not necessarily a meta thing, and not a strong tell, as I have stated.

I've played alongside scum!DVa before, and "seriousness" is a part of her scum meta -- just check her games. What makes this stronger is that she won't deny that she *finds it harder* to be chummy as scum. Just ask her that.

This makes it not a small-sample meta, but an admission that there's a certain behaviour she finds it HARD to adopt as scum.

What do you think now?

I will have to check out one of her scumgames. However, I also think my point about the heavy mecnanics component could possibly account for that.

I will have to sort her mainly by play and I’m not really seeing anything that’s especially pinging me about it so far.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Being aggressive doesn’t make you town. Ever played with scum!Thor?

Did I townread someone for aggression?
Gladiating without town consensus is anti-town, not just aggressive.
What are you asking me, exactly?

Are you townreading UT for opposing hurt tags? Anti-town play more often than not=scum play.

No. Read UT's later posts. I can totally understand his perspective. You have people going "Oh stop discussing mechanics, just make reads and play the game" and getting TR'd for it. Why does UT get SR'd? Like hell, he even said he wouldn't yolo gladiate as an IC because he wants town for have fun, and is open to using hurt tags in a controlled way, and even volunteered.

Nancy, anti-town in *this* game is a lot less simple. "I don't want to cooperate on a lame ass town governed plan because I want to have fun actually playing the game's mechanics" is an argument that can genuinely come from a town player, no?

He has seemed to have a more reasonable stance on that, so I’m feeling a bit better about him now.

[Nancy Drew 39]

-I think the meta case on D.va is pretty weak. One or two games does not make a good sample. cases that revolve around "oh you were funny earlier that game but not this one" always fall flat to me. like auro's analysis of "chumminess" based on like two games feels pretty flawed.

It's not based on just one or two games. It matches with pretty much every game DVa has played. Around 5 games at least, just observable evidence - check her profile.

She's an alt, and she would admit that she finds it significantly harder to be "chummy" as scum.

Do these reasons make it stronger to you, Cakez?

Even w/more game evidence I still don't consider someone being more funny in one game then another to be great evidence because that can change entirely dependent on the game playerlist, how fast it gets serious, and the rolelist. also in personal experience I have never actively considered being more serious as scum to appear more town or whatever.

I mean 5 games where if she's town, she's a bit chummier, and as scum, pretty serious.

You said my push on her felt genuine to you. Is this something you can explain a bit more in specifics? What would change in my push for it to look fake, for example?

it's kind of gut and tone, and your posts on this page are reinforcing it w/how engaged you are. like I don't feel you would pick this duel at all if you were scum. that said I don't know you very well.

Why? Have you read any of my scumgames on this site? I’m guessing no.

no and I don't need to, this game is this game. you still haven't given any scumreads that I can see.

I am suggesting that you might possibly be able meta confitown me by reading them. No, I haven’t yet. I
generally don’t have strong scumreads this early in the game and that is true for 98% of my towngames.

I rarely have strong scumreads on D1, I am truly envious of those that do and I’m trying to figure out why that is.

[Nancy Drew 39]

@Nancy: Either you're scumreading me or agreeing with others scumreading me.

I'll ask you now to take a stance, and explain why you scumread me, or not.

This post is both untrue and kind of manipulative sounding tbh. I haven’t formed a read on you yet but I definitely don’t like you, or anyone else telling me what I think. If you’re trying to piss me off here, then congratulations, you’ve suceeded. I will never allow anyone to ever manipulate me into doing anything. When I have formed a read on you, I will let you know but this is the first thing from you, that has really pinged me. If you are actually trying to get me to scumread you here, then definitely keep it up.

If you want my help in gladiating you, then just keep pushing me.

[Nancy Drew 39]

P.edit. I am not townreading nreading you and I wasn’t scumreading you either although I thought being too “serious” in a games seems like a really bad reason to hard scumread someone. However, I find this last post to be highly manipulative and possibly scummy. If you don’t retract your request and continue to pursue it, I will “HURT” you.

[Nancy Drew 39]

P.edit. I am not townreading nreading you and I wasn’t scumreading you either although I thought being too “serious” in a games seems like a really bad reason to hard scumread someone. However, I find this last post to be highly manipulative and possibly scummy. If you don’t retract your request and continue to pursue it, I will “HURT” you.

I rarely have strong scumreads on D1, I am truly envious of those that do and I’m trying to figure out why that is.

This quote was part of my response to Cakes, for not having any strong scumreads yet. What part of this, do you or anyone not understand?

[Nancy Drew 39]

This post is both untrue and kind of manipulative sounding tbh. I haven’t formed a read on you yet but I definitely don’t like you, or anyone else telling me what I think. If you’re trying to piss me off here, then congratulations, you’ve suceeded. I will never allow anyone to ever manipulate me into doing anything. When I have formed a read on you, I will let you know but this is the first thing from you, that has really pinged me. If you are actually trying to get me to scumread you here, then definitely keep it up.

If you want my help in gladiating you, then just keep pushing me.

I don't care for manipulation and shit.
Don't gladiate me without me having majority hurt.
Sorry if you got pissed off. That's not my intention.

I'm not telling you what you think, I'm inferring off the sentiment, feel free to tell me I'm wrong. You did say my scumgame felt similar to one you read, and I hope you read that other towngame as well.

Is your dislike of me just because I said you're either scumreading me or agreeing with people who are?

There's absolutely nothing manipulative in asking someone to take a stance. "I'm keeping you at null" is also a valid stance.

I didn’t say I wanted to gladiate you. I said I absolutely would if you kept pushing me. I will always willingly gladiate/lynch anyone who I feel is wrongly/unfairly pushing me, in any game I’m in.

Yes, because it did look similar. I will happily read a towngame of yours as well. It’s just that Varsoon made it easy for me by actually linking it.

The way you phrased it was definitely manipulative - whether that was your intention or not. You said that I need to explain why I’m EITHER townreading you OR scumreading you. Like you were literally forcing me to pick one or the other. It should be obvious that I was nullreading you, because I obviously would have “HURT” you already, had I been scumreading you or said it right in the thread if I was townreading you.

I am trying to decide rn if you actually believe DVa is scummy or if you’re just hard pushing her for bogus reasons. I haven’t made up my mind yet, either way.

[Nancy Drew 39]

This quote was part of my response to Cakes, for not having any strong scumreads yet. What part of this, do you or anyone not understand?

They don't have to be strong, or even accurate.
It's harder to fake when you're scum, and whatever you say in terms of stances on things, leans, what's pinging you, etc becomes useful content to analyze later.

For example, if someone's scumreading someone else because X, and you're still having that person at null, there's a chance that you disagree because you don't think X is sound/correct. One instance being the meta case I was making.

Do you agree?

Not having ever played with scum!DVa, I can’t put too much stock on a meta case based on “seriousness” or the lack thereof. I did say that UT had been pinging me but now I’m feeling better about him. I didn’t like Arianne’s post misrepping me and I would like her to quote where exactly she thinks I was actually advocating for numerous vigges by players who don’t know they’re Arthur. I want to determine if she actually just misread my post or deliberately misconstued it.

But it’s important to me, to be “accurate”. If I feel I have a strong case on anyone, I won’t hesitate to push them.

[Nancy Drew 39]

P.edit. I am not townreading nreading you and I wasn’t scumreading you either although I thought being too “serious” in a games seems like a really bad reason to hard scumread someone. However, I find this last post to be highly manipulative and possibly scummy. If you don’t retract your request and continue to pursue it, I will “HURT” you.

You're putting words in my mouth. I didn't hard scumread, I made a weak FoS.

Your keeping me at null also means you don't think DVa's accusation of my push being scum-motivated isn't convincing to you. See? From your stance, I was able to make a deduction.

(And if you haven't made a judgment off that yet, I'm imploring you to do so and take a stance)

You can go ahead and "hurt" me.

What? * really confused*

[Nancy Drew 39]

You're putting words in my mouth. I didn't hard scumread, I made a weak FoS.

Me saying you're either scumreading me or agreeing with people who do is manipulative.

I've repeatedly said that my meta case on her wasn't strong, it was only a FoS, and I'm open to changing my mind on it after asking other people, and even asked you about it then.

When you're telling me what *I* think, wrongly, does this not look equally manipulative to you?

No. Because I’m clearly not doing that.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Not having ever played with scum!DVa, I can’t put too much stock on a meta case based on “seriousness” or the lack thereof. I did say that UT had been pinging me but now I’m feeling better about him. I didn’t like Arianne’s post misrepping me and I would like her to quote where exactly she thinks I was actually advocating for numerous vigges by players who don’t know they’re Arthur. I want to determine if she actually just misread my post or deliberately misconstued it.

But it’s important to me, to be “accurate”. If I feel I have a strong case on anyone, I won’t hesitate to push them.

I'll just say that I heavily relate to you here. I don't think I can read people any good especially in D1, I'm just coming from a town game where I horribly misread a couple slots.

I generally push based off pings/leans, etc to engage and help develop a read, but that doesn't mean I'm hard scumreading someone if I'm pushing them.

Also, thanks for the stances. Stances don't require you to read slots, they're simple agreements or disagreements with stuff others say. Can you see where I'm coming from, WRT the expectation of stances and not necessarily strong reads?

Not really and why you’re directing this to me, specifically. Again, to you Cakes and who the fuck ever:

I rarely have strong scumreads this early and I gladly invite anyone to ISO a single towngame of mine, that contradicts this.

[Nancy Drew 39]

What? * really confused*

A few people are scumreading me, and DVa is hard scumreading me for my having engaged her and pushed her on that meta FoS.

If you read that, processed it and kept me at null, it means that that didn't convince you enough to think I'm actually scummy for doing it.

It doesn't matter now since you said you're processing it right now, which I appreciate. We good?

Pedit: You did imply I was hard scumreading because of "seriousness", when I stated it was a weak FoS, so how is not you putting words in my mouth?

Yes, you did say that, however you saying I was “putting words in your mouth” is inaccurate because it read to me that you were hard pushing her despite saying that. That isn’t “manipulation” but my honest interpretation of your posts. If you honestly don’t see that, then reread them.

[Nancy Drew 39]

although I thought being too “serious” in a games seems like a really bad reason to

hard scumread someone.

Just because you

said

it was a weak FOS, doesn’t change the fact that you were hard pushing her about it regardless. That is exactly how it came across to me anyhow. Maybe you aren’t aware of how your posts on her came across but that in no way means that I was misrepping you because I wasn’t.

I think that you are really not seeing how your posts came across but wrongly accusing me of “putting words in your mouth” is bullshit because I never misquoted you. My statement was based on my interpretation of your posts. For you to unfairly accuse me of doing something I absolutely did not do, isn’t really sitting well with me.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Not really and why you’re directing this to me, specifically. Again, to you Cakes and who the fuck ever: I rarely have strong scumreads this early and I gladly invite anyone to ISO a single towngame of mine, that contradicts this.

Stances and opinions and pings and agreements and disagreements ≠ Scumreads or townreads

That's all I'm trying to say. It's the former that I'm asking you to give not the latter. I'm sure you don't have strong scumreads this early.

I do that organically wheneve I see a post I dislike and I think I have been doing that?

[Nancy Drew 39]

Yes, you did say that, however you saying I was “putting words in your mouth” is inaccurate because it read to me that you were hard pushing her despite saying that. That isn’t “manipulation” but my honest interpretation of your posts. If you honestly don’t see that, then reread them.

I was engaging with her on that basis, while maintaining that it was a weak case and just an FoS. Did you not read the posts where I said that?

I'm also saying I honestly interpreted your sentiment as a scumread (or maybe "lean" or "ping") on me, or that you seemed to be generally agreeing with people who did. Even if I was wrong, am I not allowed to make an interpretation *at all*? Couldn't you have just corrected me, rather than call me manipulative, and threaten to hurt me, and also threaten to gladiate me?

Seriously, you need to take at least some responsibility for your part in these misunderstandings. It is not my responsibility to assume you mean something different than you’re actually saying.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Yes, you did say that, however you saying I was “putting words in your mouth” is inaccurate because it read to me that you were hard pushing her despite saying that. That isn’t “manipulation” but my honest interpretation of your posts. If you honestly don’t see that, then reread them.

I was engaging with her on that basis, while maintaining that it was a weak case and just an FoS. Did you not read the posts where I said that?

I'm also saying I honestly interpreted your sentiment as a scumread (or maybe "lean" or "ping") on me, or that you seemed to be generally agreeing with people who did. Even if I was wrong, am I not allowed to make an interpretation *at all*? Couldn't you have just corrected me, rather than call me manipulative, and threaten to hurt me, and also threaten to gladiate me?

Seriously, you need to take at least some responsibility for your part in these misunderstandings. It is not my responsibility to assume you mean something different than you’re actually saying.

What you actually should have done is, ASK me for my read on you, or ask IF I’m currently townreasing or scumreading you?

I would have reacted quite well to that, I assure you.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I actually think that your complete lack of awareness in how you’re actually coming accross is going to get you gladiated and rn Im thinking you might well be entirely unself-aware town who is going to get himself possibly mislynched. I really think that you really have no awareness of how you’re coming across to people here.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Seriously, you need to take at least some responsibility for your part in these misunderstandings. It is not my responsibility to assume you mean something different than you’re actually saying.

>I make an honest interpretation that you seem to be scumreading me or that you're agreeing with people who are
>I ask you to give me a read on my slot, "scum" or "not scum" (null/town)

"Not scumread" objectively covers a nullread as well, and it's reasonable for me to expect you to understand that. If you don't feel I said that, nothing stops you from questioning me on it, which is the point of engagement in the first place.

But calling my post "highly manipulative" and threatening to hurt me, and also to gladiate me if I don't retract it? That feels pretty dishonest and overreactive.

If you can take that back, I'll accept my part in the misunderstanding.

No, I can’t take that back, because that would be dishonest on my part. That is how you came across to me and how I interpreted it.

Did I may be have overreacted to it a bit? Possibly? But “dishonest”? Not not even a bit. That was my honest reaction to what you said. To deny that would be disingenuous on my part.

[Nancy Drew 39]

What you actually should have done is, ASK me for my read on you, or ask IF I’m currently townreasing or scumreading you?

I would have reacted quite well to that, I assure you.

God, "Scumreading or not" does not mean "Scumreading or townreading". Now that I've clarified on the exact phrasing, please take back the stuff about manipulation and stuff. That's not useful at all.

I’m not even sure of what you’re even asking of me now. I have nothing to take back. I reacted genuinely on what Iread to me as extremely manipulative and and unfair. If I have misunderstood you on that? That I can change but you’re not asking me that and that isn’t fair.

[Nancy Drew 39]

It's my style.

I honestly don't care that much for getting mislynched. I'm not the one making attacks on people, I just push and engage based on things till I'm satisfied. If I *do* get lynched, there's a pretty good utility for town WRT analysing prior sentiments towards me, anyway.

If you replied with "Do you think I either have to scumread or townread you, and can't keep you at null?", I would've easily clarified that null is a fine position to take and that "scumread or not" did include that.

I don't like that you chose to instead call me manipulative and threaten me with various things, but I think you probably do these kinda things often. *Shrug* hence this exchange is pretty useless.

Pedit: Yes, an overreaction is something I was considering, I would've felt it was dishonest if this was isolated AND you kept tugging at it.

Thanks. Can we attempt to work together a bit more now?

Like I said, that was

exactly

how it read to me and you shouldn’t be asking me to drop it. What you should be doing, instead of unfairly accusing me, is to

listen

to what I’m telling you or this is going to continue to keep happening to you.

So, yes, I did and do read your initial “question” to me as manipulative and scummy and had you not clarified it and kept pushing me, I absolutely would have “HURT” you. That said, I’m reading your reaction to it as townie because I doubt scum!you could have faked that degree of conviction - especially under pressure.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I mean take back the stuff about me having to retract or otherwise you'd gladiate me or hurt me or whatever.

You already did retract it, didn’t you? So, this is a non-issue.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Can you go more into your reads, S_S? How is this genuine Auro? What feels scum about UT? Why do you need experience to properly read 1/3 of the slots in the game?

I'm getting less confident with my townread on Something_Smart, I'm trying to find his logical conclusion to the discussion at the moment so we can get there fast and progress to other useful stuff.

I don't know what feels scummy about UT. Gamma's reason to scumread him seems weird -- I just checked, and UT did not play that game. I'm actually kinda towning UT from gut.

I probably need experience to *accurately* read a lot of slots, I'm still reading them based on their play this game alone, other players are telling me I'm wrong. *Shrug* And I probably am.

What? No this is incorrect. UT was in BoR and subbed out and got replaced by Moment.

[Nancy Drew 39]

@Sircakez: I'm dropping all content wrt the meta push I've had with DVa, and I don't want to talk about that further.

I mean ok but you should understand why this sudden dropping of it doesn't look great.

We have 5 days. If Elsa decides to duel anyone prematurely, denying us time, please murder them.

^ scum post

I am suggesting that you might possibly be able meta confitown me by reading them. No, I haven’t yet. I
generally don’t have strong scumreads this early in the game and that is true for 98% of my towngames.

I rarely have strong scumreads on D1, I am truly envious of those that do and I’m trying to figure out why that is.

I dislike meta in most cases. It's not even your lack of strong scumreads it's your lack of any scumreads at all that I can see. you don't even have a single scumlean on anyone? it's making you hard to read. S_S as well for the same reason.

I think the UT hurt case just boils down to not contributing much and him being a loose cannon later on. not really a great lynch, won't tell us much since scum would and could easily bus him. only good thing about it is he will probably be lynched or vigged before endgame anyway.

I didn’t like some of LLD’s reads - can’t remember off the bat but she was scumreading some players I think are town. I also didn’t care for Arianne misrepping what I said by implying that I think town should blind vig every night. I want to figure out if she just misunderstood my posts or if it was intentional. I’m sorry not to be more helpful but I’m much stronger at finding townreads on D1.

[Nancy Drew 39]

She's the key to having a flowchart of events going on. You and UT will solve yourselves, but she doesn't feel like town to many, either. If You couldn't tell, I havent liked her since her first post, so this isn't really an "outta nowhere" pick.

At this point when she flips scum, I'm confident we can townclear a bunch of people more then we can on the offchance Auro flips scum. And I feel Auro actually engaging and speculating with the mechanics, while it could conceivably be a feint, I'm going off the fact that my heart and gut says he's town. And it's right 85 % of the time.

If I can stop you all from hanging my big townread while having the chance to hang my big scumread, I'll take it.

No, I agree with you. While I don’t go out of my way to do reaction tests, there are a really great way to sort hard to read players, because they’re extremely difficult to fake and his reaction to that “misunderstanding” we had, read townie to me. I’m liking this post of yours but I really want to get as many decent reads as possible before EOD, so I’d prefer you don’t rush the gladiate.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Ok 12 hours is fine then.

I support these:

HURT: Auro
LLD
Ariane

Curious if anyone else had a negative reaction to 371?

I did. It reads scummy to me in general that anyone who has 5 posts or less. uses a HURT tag. It reads like tryharding to me but yeah, she had a questionable and shitty case for HURTING me.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Curious if anyone else had a negative reaction to 371?

I don't see anything bad about it.

LAMIST is what came to my mind.

[Nancy Drew 39]

@MOD: You said that the kill resolves before the sword is claimed, however, does the kill resolve AFTER or BEFORE it is decided which claimer will get it?
IE:
Is it SCENARIO 1: Player A and B go to claim Sword. Sword will random roll to player A. Scum kill player A. Sword is unclaimed in the morning because A died before they could claim it
or
SCENARIO 2: Player A and B go to claim Sword. Scum kill player A. Claim is rolled post-kill and goes to player B since they are the only one going for Sword?

Scenario 1.

Okay, so Varsoon has the right idea then. Confirming any player to claim the sword in advance, is basically a death warrant if they’re town.

[Nancy Drew 39]

No.
Especially because the second that it becomes 'certain players', scum can kill those certain players and rob us of the mechanic.

+1

[Nancy Drew 39]

I don't know how I'm going to vote.

It will probably come down to which I am more afraid of: scum-LLD or town-you.

I don't see why you should expect me to determine this before the challenge.

What?

[Nancy Drew 39]

Regardless of what You think of my Town game, Smart, I'm always trying to get better. So please take this time seriously now.

I mean, yeah, sure, but you're kinda doing it to yourself by challenging one of the loudest players in the game.

LAMIST is what came to my mind.

What part of it strikes you as LAMIST?

I didn’t buy her reasoning and as I already said, it was like her 5th post. I think this sort of play is more likely to come from scum than town.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I didn’t buy her reasoning and as I already said, it was like her 5th post. I think this sort of play is more likely to come from scum than town.

You don't believe it makes sense, or you don't believe that she genuinely believed it?

Why do you think it's more likely to come from scum?

I thought her reasons didn’t make any sense. I don’t believe she has really put a lot of thought into it, no. That’s why I said it was LAMIST. She makes her 5th post a bad case with a HURT tag - yes, I do think town would be far less inclined to do that. Scum usually wants to waste as little time as possible, to look like they’re actually doing something.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Like, I kinda don't get the people complaining that scum would kill the scummy person claiming the sword

that would keep the sword unclaimed

which is what we want, because then the next night we could force them to kill another scummy player

what part of this is bad--we still *eventually* can get an IC through the sword, it doesn't have to be n1. If we want we can have literally everyone claim the sword on like n3 if scum killed our preferred target n1.

which is precisely why scum would not kill our preferred target n1, they actually want the claim to resolve I think

but I've also just kinda accepted that I'm not getting my way on this so idgaf, don't even know why people are still going on, if Varsoon is going to be a child about it then that's on him

I think people are going to try to go for the sword and scum doesn’t want it claimed. They don’t want to risk being vigged, I think.

I was agreeing with you until FG, clarified that scum can kill the claimant BEFORE they ever actually get the sword. I had presumed that the claimant would be safe from the NK, so that changes my view on it.

[Nancy Drew 39]

If you try to use tells "just from this game" on them, you'll fail to get anything useful the vast majority of the time.

not sure this is scummy but this is pretty weak reasoning regardless of alignment SS

If you try to use tells "just from this game" on them, you'll fail to get anything useful the vast majority of the time.

not sure this is scummy but this is pretty weak reasoning regardless of alignment SS

What's wrong with it?

Are you saying not to disregard meta?

[Nancy Drew 39]

Dva LLD sword

is the implication here that in LLD vs Elsa you'd side with Elsa?

I need to read Elsa iso but I haven't seen anything scummy so yes atm

You are familiar with LLD meta? because this is only my 2nd game with her.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I am saying not to disregard meta, that is correct.

I agree with that. I think it’s important to take meta into account. I’m townreading Elsa but I would like some more time to get a better read on LLD. I’m not sure that will happen in under 12 hours. :/

[Nancy Drew 39]

Gladiate MariaR

Why have people been making HURT tags, if they’re just going to be ignored? Didn’t you say we should kill EJ for doing this?

[Nancy Drew 39]

i am not sure either of u are scum.
also not sure why ur in this hole where ur so sure of ur read.

This is why we agreed to go with DVa’s HURT tag idea - to prevent Yolo dueling - the very fucking thing that is now happening.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Gladiate MariaR

Why have people been making HURT tags, if they’re just going to be ignored? Didn’t you say we should kill EJ for doing this?

Elsa was giving me an ultimatuum, and I was fine to wait when I thought she was scum, but once I realized she was likely town I needed to make a move to avoid a TvT duel.

Yes, that’s true, you would 100% have lost that duel.

[Nancy Drew 39]

HURT: UT
Wanted to talk about this during catch-up but I’m not focused enough to get through rn so I’ll just do this now
The post by Dunnstral I quoted saying I had a good idea of someone who could be scum, I was referring to UT. In BoR, FakeGod made a comment post-game about how he meant for town to use the desperadoes optimally when doing balance. So for UT to argue against that concept is a massive scum sign.

He wasn't in that game so this reasoning only holds for saying it's a bad idea

Well against Lady it'll be enough.

We have 5 days. If Elsa decides to duel anyone prematurely, denying us time, please murder them.

I don't like this coming from you because it looks like you said it in response to 990

There's something that's been off about you all game, and I didn't know how to put it into words, I think it's the implication you are giving out that you shouldn't be voted today for being a strong voice, but looking at your post history there are times where you aren't in thread for hundreds of posts at a time and then you don't really make a HUGE impact when you're here either, I don't know if this comes from you misconstruing the way you are playing this game or if something else is going on here or what



I am this far back right now and boy does Auro ever shut up? Feels like he's on every page, probably because he almost literally is

A few people are scumreading me, and DVa is hard scumreading me for my having engaged her and pushed her on that meta FoS.

This feels kind of misreppy for what DVa is saying

We have 5 days. If Elsa decides to duel anyone prematurely, denying us time, please murder them.

^ scum post

Yeah it is

Yes, he was in that game, he even said he was. He was replaced by Moment.

[Nancy Drew 39]

AWWWW I GET THE PLAN. I'm flattered LLD is scared of town me so she wants people to think we're buddies when she dies to get rid of town me. Aw lld I'm honored ty for choosing me this is really cute

If that's the case, would you be okay with taking the sword tonight?

I normally hate being an IC but sure I wouldn't mind it.

If you end up lynching me, and Maria comes back without the sword, saying "oh someone else got it oops RNG", kill her.

Or just kill her now and perform the same effect on me, I'll hari-kiri myself if I don't become confirmed town tbh.

There is no guarantee Maria can get the sword, if multiple people claim it, so this is a false test. It is only relevant, if NO ONE claims it, then we’d have a guilty.

[Nancy Drew 39]

If LLD's scum here, she knows she's a dead woman. I can see her wanting to go out having as much control over the gamestate as she can, I can see her wanting to focus her efforts into eliminating Maria whom she probably sees as more threatening than Jay, and I can see her expecting to do better against someone whom she can potentially emotionally unbalance. So yeah, it's definitely plausible.

So your saying she couldnt emotionally unbalance me? I know that wasnt the focus, but it's just something I want to know.

Honestly if she had let me battle her, she saw how many people (yourself included) would have voted me, she definitely had a decent chance of winning. So your saying that she, as scum, would go for the even harder push on Maria? That Seems less optimal as scum.

You were obvtown due to your Auro defense and she knew it. She wasn’t winning against you. Her choosing to gladiate Maria, doesn’t necessarily tell us anything about her alignment but she has a better chance of winning against Maria, than you.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I only really want Maria to get it if LLD is scum, because it means that scum wanted Maria out of the way for a reason. And I do think there's a decent chance of a bus... people bus in situations where it seems dumb, precisely because it seems so dumb nobody would expect it, and clearly LLD thought she was going down anyway.

So, you’re thinking that LLD is bussing Maria for towncred, hoping someone other than her claims the sword?

[Nancy Drew 39]

Why are you people so convinced you can convince two scum to gladiate each other?

It will never happen. Assume you will always have one town in a Gladiate and move from there.

Oh boy am I gonna have to fight this obv as hell fake ate. It's like LLD is sitting behind her comp going. "what best fits here to get people to vote with me given I have no good arguments to use vs maria"
pedit: But I don't have an album of gifs for Riza yet

Here's a good argument.

I could have gladiated UT.

Or Cakez.

Or even Elsa.

And had a decent chance at living based on the argument of "I'm useful and polarizing, keep me alive to see the sword for one day then kill me if I don't get it".

I had a lot of targets that let me live.

Why do I surprise gladiate you as scum? If my goal is to survive?

Cause the only duel you had a chance vs was UT and even that you might've lost. When you're in such a shitty spot you have to make the risky play. Guess thats me~

This is trash tier logic for someone who claims to know me well, just so everyone is aware.

I've been in so many scum games where it's looked like I've been guaranteed to die, and I've wormed my way out of way worse spots.

And yet Maria thinks I wouldn't take the high % play and would go for something not just risky but severely unlikely to work and stupid because it would make you look more town?

Infact, everyone reading along listen well

THE ONLY TIME SCUM!LLD DUELS MARIA HERE IS IF MARIA IS ALSO SCUM. YALL KNOW I LOVE TO BUS, SO I'M BUSSING HERE. LET'S FUCKING GO CHOO CHOO

[Nancy Drew 39]

LL coming out hot with the reads.
What makes Nancy and UT town?
Why is mechanical talk scummy in an open setup?
If I was scum and you asked me to bus-gladiate, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

Throwing out a thought:
If scum claims Excalibur, they die immediately.
Town can vote on someone to claim Excalibur for the day. ONLY that person claims at night. If they're scum it remains unclaimed, lynch next day. If there's a claim treat them like an IC the next day.

Kill resolves before claim. Yes, we'd effectively gate the scum kill but we'd also render the setup as 13-4 mountainous.
But I think you're right in that we could effectively use the sword claiming as a one-shot cop, but, again, that renders the bulletproof aspect of it kind of useless.

@MOD: If Merlin dies and flips, does Arthur's identity get revealed with the flip?
Can Merlin claim Excalibur?

Tone on both. It's what I expect from them.

It's not that we can't talk mechanics. Mechanics is NAI. It's that talking mechanics and using them to smother other interactions that generate reads + create "content" for scummy players is scumsided. Explained in a prior post, happy to explain again.

Crossbus Gladiates are inherently bad for scum due to the White Flag rule. If one scum remains, they concede. Bussing is far more likely to create a single scum surviving scenario, and eventually scum need to leave associatives, which means bussing is bad, especially day 1.

LLD has never played with me other than in Dance.

[Nancy Drew 39]

VOTE: LLD

[Nancy Drew 39]

Firebringer is

Sir Lancelot

Arthur.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Want to hear more from FA slot given I have a slot of tr's and I think scum can be in the lurker slots.

I don’t think that slot’s been filled yet.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I think your kinda forgetting about the duel mechanic, Kokichi-chan.

Oh right lol

HURT: varsoon

Do you think scum!Varsoon kills his biggest scumread?

[Nancy Drew 39]

I've changed my mind, Maria is scum here

Wow you scumreading maria? Why?

Want to hear more from FA slot given I have a slot of tr's and I think scum can be in the lurker slots.

Scumtastic

I've changed my mind, Maria is scum here

Why? This post sound more NAI to me.

[Nancy Drew 39]

FakeGod is Auther

Wisdom is Guinneverre.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Elsa Jay is Mei
Dunnstal is Reinhardt
Gamma Emerald is Roadhog
Firebringer is Ana
Nancy is Tracer

I just looked up Overwatch. <3. I also know that’s how you got your username.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Auro is Arthur.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Firebringer is

Sir Lancelot

Arthur.

I forgot was Lancelot the butt of jokes in Monty python?
If so I do not appreciate this joke

It wasn’t meant as a slight.

[Nancy Drew 39]

If whomever claimed the sword, isn’t Arthur, they aren’t allowed to unclaim it. So, the only way for Arthur to ever get the sword is if fake Arthur vigs - assuming the true owner of the sword isn’t actually Arthur.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I think your kinda forgetting about the duel mechanic, Kokichi-chan.

Oh right lol

HURT: varsoon

Do you think scum!Varsoon kills his biggest scumread?

It's not implausible that scum!Varsoon thought that S_S wasn't so easy to mislynch, and was genuinely annoyed by S_S to the point of wanting to kill him. Does look like a framing kill tho.

Someone who wants both SS and Varsoon out of the game, perhaps?

[Nancy Drew 39]

What do you think about my idea? Where Maria (and nobody else) claims the sword if LLD flips scum?

If this is the plan I refuse to go for the sword.

Like the whole point of me going for the sword is so I live ya know? If I die the point is moot

w/e do I rly have a choice I'll just die either by scum nk or by town lynch zz

I won't go for the sword...or maybe I will we'll make scum guess

I'm not doing it just so I can be a nk I rather play the game ty.

Tbf Dunn, this makes total sense. Why does scum!Maria say she’s not going for the sword, as opposed to making excuses for not being the one to claim it. Because FG, said that the potential swordclaimer can be NK’d before they can hypothetically become bp right?

[Nancy Drew 39]

Someone who wants both SS and Varsoon out of the game, perhaps?

I'm still thinking as to what benefit scum would have by killing S_S. Are there players who rolled scum with him in previous games, and thought he might more easily read them? Or am I overthinking this, Nancy?

I know NKA isn't fruitful, but... This kill is interesting.

I have no idea but generally scum doesn’t NK their #1 scumread on the same night they push them. However, I’ve heard that scum!Varsoon is apparently “insane” but I’m leaning more town for him so far.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I'm not doing it just so I can be a nk I rather play the game ty.

The people going for the sword should be SS UT Dva Kokichi

Didn't like these posts much.
Either town!Maria *really* didn't want to claim it, or scum!Maria was trying to evade. Hmm~

It doesn’t look great that she left her own name out of it, or encouraged specific players to go after it. Not sure why DVa is mentioned specifically but definitely, possible shading on those 4 players.

Maria why would you encourage specific players to claim the sword, rather than in general? Why wouldn’t you want a chance to claim it?

[Nancy Drew 39]

w/e do I rly have a choice I'll just die either by scum nk or by town lynch zz

This one Maria

Why would you die by town lynch if lld was scum?

Okay, I see your point. She clearly wasn’t scum locking her.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Dunnstal is Reinhardt

It's so true, how did you know

Town Maria would have responded to 1507 too

I just know she would have

I don’t even understand 1507.

[Nancy Drew 39]

What do you think about my idea? Where Maria (and nobody else) claims the sword if LLD flips scum?

If this is the plan I refuse to go for the sword.

Like the whole point of me going for the sword is so I live ya know? If I die the point is moot

w/e do I rly have a choice I'll just die either by scum nk or by town lynch zz

I won't go for the sword...or maybe I will we'll make scum guess

I'm not doing it just so I can be a nk I rather play the game ty.

Tbf Dunn, this makes total sense. Why does scum!Maria say she’s not going for the sword, as opposed to making excuses for not being the one to claim it. Because FG, said that the potential swordclaimer can be NK’d before they can hypothetically become bp right?

Scum maria can't gaurantee that town goes for the sword

It looked like UT and varsoon were backing off it at eod

So if it lays there unclaimed after she said she'd go for it she's outted

Day 2

Excalibur is

claimed.

Countdown to deadline: (expired on 2018-12-09 22:00:00)

[Nancy Drew 39]

@Nancy:
Exactly. Had she not asked specific people to take it, it would've looked a lot better and I would've written off her hesitation to take the sword as WIFOM to avoid a NK.

Naming specific people implies an intention of *actually* wanting to not claim the sword.

Yes, I agree.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Nancy, I think Dunn knows it's claimed, he's saying that Maria was backing off after saying she'd claim it because it seemed that Varsoon and UT were backing off too, and she would've been outed IF the sword was unclaimed. What was your point in 1542?

Oh, I thought he missed reading that.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Also I don't see whats wrong with me not wanting to take the sword.

Why wouldn’t you want to take the sword? It makes you a bp IC?

[Nancy Drew 39]

Also I don't see whats wrong with me not wanting to take the sword.

It makes no sense if you’re town. If I’m you, I WIFOM to throw scum off the track, hope no one else tries to claim it and 100% go for it.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Also I don't see whats wrong with me not wanting to take the sword.

It makes no sense if you’re town. If I’m you, I WIFOM to throw scum off the track, hope no one else tries to claim it and 100% go for it.

What I absolutely do NOT do, is to encourage specific players to claim it, because that would hurt MY chances of getting it.

[Nancy Drew 39]

What do you think about my idea? Where Maria (and nobody else) claims the sword if LLD flips scum?

If this is the plan I refuse to go for the sword.

Like the whole point of me going for the sword is so I live ya know? If I die the point is moot

w/e do I rly have a choice I'll just die either by scum nk or by town lynch zz

I won't go for the sword...or maybe I will we'll make scum guess

I'm not doing it just so I can be a nk I rather play the game ty.

Tbf Dunn, this makes total sense. Why does scum!Maria say she’s not going for the sword, as opposed to making excuses for not being the one to claim it. Because FG, said that the potential swordclaimer can be NK’d before they can hypothetically become bp right?

Scum maria can't gaurantee that town goes for the sword

It looked like UT and varsoon were backing off it at eod

So if it lays there unclaimed after she said she'd go for it she's outted

Day 2

Excalibur is

claimed.

Countdown to deadline: (expired on 2018-12-09 22:00:00)

You asked me why Maria did something, I responded why she would, there's no contradiction due to the sword being claimed - after all, Maria

did the thing

, and I was speculating on

if she hadn't done the thing

Yes because presumably someone else -perhaps one of the surviving 3 of the 4 players she mentioned?, has it.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Yes because presumably someone else -perhaps one of the surviving 3 of the 4 players she mentioned?, has it.

ok...?

Your original point was asking why Maria would tell other people to go for the sword instead of not just going for it

Yes, I’m speculating that maybe one of those 3 may have claimed it. What do you think of her straight up saying she didn’t want to claim the sword?

[Nancy Drew 39]

Also I don't see whats wrong with me not wanting to take the sword.

It makes no sense if you’re town. If I’m you, I WIFOM to throw scum off the track, hope no one else tries to claim it and 100% go for it.

What I absolutely do NOT do, is to encourage specific players to claim it, because that would hurt MY chances of getting it.

Well considering I was never going for it in the first place that clears up your point

w/e do I rly have a choice I'll just die either by scum nk or by town lynch zz

This one Maria

Why would you die by town lynch if lld was scum?

That's not the point you were trying to make though. You were saying I implied I knew LLD would flip town. How does this point relate to that at all.

Because that's what it looks like to me

Looks like what? I asked what posts make it look like I know LLD would flip town. You've never cleared that up you're pushing a whole dif topic

Is it a reasonable expectation from town to submit to a governed Excalibur cop, at the cost of possibly being a NK? I think it absolutely is, since it helps the game move forward a great deal. Maria, do you not think so?

Maybe. I can see pros and cons for both I just know I cared about my own survival more to play another day then do 2 things I hate being `1) If I did have the sword be clear and have to kill myself later or 2) Just die outright so I took option 3) Not take the sword keep playing and someone else be clear.

By me not going for the sword we had someone that wasn't getting a lot of trs dead and a new clear. I don't see the issue here.
Pedit: Exactly

Option 4) Pretend you're going for the sword up until someone else hammers, then back off and list 4 other players to take the sword without there being any more time for discussion

I was debating it. You could see my thoughts in the thread until I said fuck it I'm not going for it. I listed people who should take the sword. Look who scum nightkilled. Someone in

my

list.

It doesn’t make a lot of sense for you to have killed anyone on your list.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Look who scum nightkilled. Someone in my list.

Also, Something_Smart wanted Maria to go for the sword only if LLD flipped scum. If he was alive, he would've argued that it's fine for Maria not to have gone for it -- which leads me to think that scum may have planned a Maria push for today.

Are you scumreading Dunn then?

[Nancy Drew 39]

Look who scum nightkilled. Someone in my list.

Also, Something_Smart wanted Maria to go for the sword only if LLD flipped scum. If he was alive, he would've argued that it's fine for Maria not to have gone for it -- which leads me to think that scum may have planned a Maria push for today.

Are you scumreading Dunn then?

Nope, I'm just much less confident on Maria being scum.

This is why we need to 100% stick to DVa’s plan to let the 2 players with the majority of hurt tags gladiate. Elsa shouldn’t have tried to unnecessarily played town hero by pushing LLD to try to save herself.

Had we had a duel that we had had enough time to decide on. we likely wouldn’t even be in thus situation. :/

[Nancy Drew 39]

Look who scum nightkilled. Someone in my list.

I don't think there was any real indication that S_S was going for the sword, though?

You writing a name down in a list doesn't matter

It does look good for Maria though because why does scum!Maria kill one of 4 people she suggested claim the sword?

[Nancy Drew 39]

I mean, ultimately a gladiation will happen. LLD basically had the most hurt tags and she chose to go for someone that she knew she was unlikely to win against but who she heavily suspected. While it'd be nice if we could stick to the plan, I do think it's a bit less informative for town if the gladiation is too one-sided.

But I also can't make a top hurt player not gladiate their top scumread, I can simply give advise not to do it.

Yeah, I just don’t want want another replay of BoR again. That’s what’s great about majority lynches. You can’t acheive a lynch w/o the majority of players agreeing to it.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Look who scum nightkilled. Someone in my list.

I don't think there was any real indication that S_S was going for the sword, though?

You writing a name down in a list doesn't matter

It does look good for Maria though because why does scum!Maria kill one of 4 people she suggested claim the sword?

Nobody is under any obligation to listen to Maria, especially when she announces her plans in twilights before anyone can discuss it

Can you point out some evidence that suggests that Somethign_smart was going for the sword, or that he was otherwise especially likely to listen to MariaR there?

I never said he was, my point was it doesn’t really make a whole lot of sense for scum!Maria to kill 1 out of the 4 people she suggested claim it.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Look who scum nightkilled. Someone in my list.

I don't think there was any real indication that S_S was going for the sword, though?

You writing a name down in a list doesn't matter

It does look good for Maria though because why does scum!Maria kill one of 4 people she suggested claim the sword?

Nobody is under any obligation to listen to Maria, especially when she announces her plans in twilights before anyone can discuss it

Can you point out some evidence that suggests that Somethign_smart was going for the sword, or that he was otherwise especially likely to listen to MariaR there?

I never said he was, my point was it doesn’t really make a whole lot of sense for scum!Maria to kill 1 out of the 4 people she suggested claim it.

Why not?

I don't understand, EVEN IF ss were going for the sword, killing the town that goes for the sword is good for scum, right?

Furthermore, MariaR isn't so arrogant to believe that she can order SS around to claim the sword with her twilight list after she was just the target of a townie's duel

My point is that I don’t really see how it would be in scum!Maria’s interest to kill one out of 4 people on her list, who could have conceivably gone after the sword. Whether SS actually tried to claim it or not, is besides the point.

[Nancy Drew 39]

P.edit. Yes, killing the town who they think would try to claim the sword is good for scum but why SS from that list? I just don’t see why scum!Maria kills SS, after mentioning him in the first place.

I don’t even understand why he was killed in particular but it likely has some connection to Varsoon - more likely a frame than not. This also doesn’t really point to Maria.

[Nancy Drew 39]

So who's scum then, Nancy?

My guess would be someone who was pushing Varsoon, unless there’s some other reason scum kills SS that I don’t understand.

[Nancy Drew 39]

2. One is scum, good situation, also unlikely just off of odds and what makes sense for play, but you're the one with experience; does LLD-scum gladiate town here despite knowing Excalibur guilties her tonight?

If LLD's scum here, she knows she's a dead woman. I can see her wanting to go out having as much control over the gamestate as she can, I can see her wanting to focus her efforts into eliminating Maria whom she probably sees as more threatening than Jay, and I can see her expecting to do better against someone whom she can potentially emotionally unbalance. So yeah, it's definitely plausible.

3. Both are town, awful situation, not a win-win at all, as we mislynch one and even if we browbeat the other to get the sword, scum can either kill there if they want or avoid it if they're not worried about Maria.

Yes, if LLD is town it isn't a win-win because Maria could be town, but I still think she's a pretty good cop candidate as she's a strong town player and she'll never be trusted if LLD flips green.

However, I would be open to not going through with this if LLD is town, though we'd pretty much have to lynch Maria out of respect for the dead.

If LLD's scum here, she knows she's a dead woman. I can see her wanting to go out having as much control over the gamestate as she can, I can see her wanting to focus her efforts into eliminating Maria whom she probably sees as more threatening than Jay, and I can see her expecting to do better against someone whom she can potentially emotionally unbalance. So yeah, it's definitely plausible.

So your saying she couldnt emotionally unbalance me? I know that wasnt the focus, but it's just something I want to know.

Honestly if she had let me battle her, she saw how many people (yourself included) would have voted me, she definitely had a decent chance of winning. So your saying that she, as scum, would go for the even harder push on Maria? That Seems less optimal as scum.

Yeah, I don't think she'd be able to emotionally unbalance you. You clearly don't know her well and you don't seem like that emotional of a player in general.

And I don't know that she necessarily would have made that move as scum, but I can at least see reasons why she would. Maybe she judged differently from us that she would have lost the duel against you, or she misjudged what the response to dueling Maria would be.

[Nancy Drew 39]

2. One is scum, good situation, also unlikely just off of odds and what makes sense for play, but you're the one with experience; does LLD-scum gladiate town here despite knowing Excalibur guilties her tonight?

If LLD's scum here, she knows she's a dead woman. I can see her wanting to go out having as much control over the gamestate as she can, I can see her wanting to focus her efforts into eliminating Maria whom she probably sees as more threatening than Jay, and I can see her expecting to do better against someone whom she can potentially emotionally unbalance. So yeah, it's definitely plausible.

3. Both are town, awful situation, not a win-win at all, as we mislynch one and even if we browbeat the other to get the sword, scum can either kill there if they want or avoid it if they're not worried about Maria.

Yes, if LLD is town it isn't a win-win because Maria could be town, but I still think she's a pretty good cop candidate as she's a strong town player and she'll never be trusted if LLD flips green.

However, I would be open to not going through with this if LLD is town, though we'd pretty much have to lynch Maria out of respect for the dead.

Disregard that other post, because I somehow included irrelevant quotes.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I didn't order S_S to go for the sword. The fact that he did or didn't isn't the issue

it's that he was killed for being on my list.

While that’s definitely possible and maybe even likely, it is far from certain if that was the reason. We don’t know if scum expected SS to actually go for it or not.

[Nancy Drew 39]

1 of Auro/Dva
Prob UT
and some lurker slots atm.

Why one of Auro/Diva?

[Nancy Drew 39]

I don't think scum Varsoon kills S_S out of defensiveness here. Doesn't seem like his type of move.

Maria what's your read on Dunn?

Also Elsa definitely looks worse with the LLD flip. The gladiate timing is more suspicious, makes a lot of sense as scum (cuts day short and secures an easy mislynch when it could have gone elsewhere, plus nobody really objects to that gladiation).
As well I think there is probably scum in the mob of low content slots (Ariane slot, FA slot, Kokichi, Veridian).

So who's scum then, Nancy?

My guess would be someone who was pushing Varsoon, unless there’s some other reason scum kills SS that I don’t understand.

can we get some names? this is a vague af response

Yes Cakes, it is “vague af”. If I actually had an answer, I’d obviously tell you.

Any rate, my strong townread on Elsa has lessened, because I’m not sure I buy that Auro was in serious jeopardy of being gladiated.

I was initially suspicious of Ariane and if PP doesn’t pick it up today, that will increase my suspicion on that slot. I also am curious what FA replacement will do.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Gladiates still have to result in a majority Lynch, though. Why are you talking about it like it isn't?
We can also always no lynch, even though that's not preferable.
So long as we're using Hurt tags and the most Hurt player is gladiating/gladiated, it's essentially a majority lynchee in the gladiate pool.

I'm having a lot of trouble keeping up with this game otherwise.
Is there anything in particular I should look at?

+1

Yeah, duels that are not based on majority hurt tags, provide virtually little information, if the lynchee flips town. All we get from that is that LLD didn’t townread Maria.

[Nancy Drew 39]

1 of Auro/Dva
Prob UT
and some lurker slots atm.

The people going for the sword should be SS UT Dva Kokichi

Why wasn’t Auro in your list? What did he do/not do to change your read on him?

While it’s pretty damned obvious that Auro/DVa are never w/w here, that doesn’t mean either of them are scum.

But it bothers me, that you’re suggesting that Auro could be scum but didn’t suggest he attempt to claim the sword last night.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Because I don't sr Auro atm.

I basically think Dva is pretty good choice of scum given how Auro vs dva happened but in the off chance Dva flipped town I would respect her read and flip Auro.

Why couldn’t they both be town here?

[Nancy Drew 39]

I don't think scum Varsoon kills S_S out of defensiveness here. Doesn't seem like his type of move.

Maria what's your read on Dunn?

Also Elsa definitely looks worse with the LLD flip. The gladiate timing is more suspicious, makes a lot of sense as scum (cuts day short and secures an easy mislynch when it could have gone elsewhere, plus nobody really objects to that gladiation).
As well I think there is probably scum in the mob of low content slots (Ariane slot, FA slot, Kokichi, Veridian).

So who's scum then, Nancy?

My guess would be someone who was pushing Varsoon, unless there’s some other reason scum kills SS that I don’t understand.

can we get some names? this is a vague af response

Yes Cakes, it is “vague af”. If I actually had an answer, I’d obviously tell you.

Any rate, my strong townread on Elsa has lessened, because I’m not sure I buy that Auro was in serious jeopardy of being gladiated.

I was initially suspicious of Ariane and if PP doesn’t pick it up today, that will increase my suspicion on that slot. I also am curious what FA replacement will do.

FoS
when are you gonna declare some actual scumreads?

When you actually read my posts.

[Nancy Drew 39]

What do you think about my idea? Where Maria (and nobody else) claims the sword if LLD flips scum?

If this is the plan I refuse to go for the sword.

Like the whole point of me going for the sword is so I live ya know? If I die the point is moot

w/e do I rly have a choice I'll just die either by scum nk or by town lynch zz

I won't go for the sword...or maybe I will we'll make scum guess

I'm not doing it just so I can be a nk I rather play the game ty.

Tbf Dunn, this makes total sense. Why does scum!Maria say she’s not going for the sword, as opposed to making excuses for not being the one to claim it. Because FG, said that the potential swordclaimer can be NK’d before they can hypothetically become bp right?

Scum maria can't gaurantee that town goes for the sword

It looked like UT and varsoon were backing off it at eod

So if it lays there unclaimed after she said she'd go for it she's outted

Day 2

Excalibur is

claimed.

Countdown to deadline: (expired on 2018-12-09 22:00:00)

Yeah, but there was a big frenzy to get someone to claim it
Maria freaking out did ping me as well

Yes and Dunn’s case is quite compelling.

I’m not opposed to a Maria being gladiated.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I want to hurt the slot but I wanted to see what Penguin would say on his own

but I kinda feel like he's just going to pop in, say something like "catching up" and then we won't hear from him for two more days

so I guess why not

HURT: Penguin

[Nancy Drew 39]

Any point Dunn brought up against me was proven false or when I brought up a counter point he'd just move on because he had no rebuttal. So I want to know what you find compelling about it Nancy. I won't be dying today so you should be looking elsewhere. Most of the game is for some reason taking a back seat and only having me as the point of conversation. (also odd)

You keep on saying that but that doesn’t make it so. I disagree that Dunn’s case has been rebutted. He provided a lot of valid counterpoints to yours. I’m really good at seeing through bullshit pushes - either by bad town or scum and this isn’t one of those.

[Nancy Drew 39]

When you actually read my posts.

Nice deflection

No, it’s true. You aren’t accurately reading them. I already told you that I’m not doing anything different here, than like 98% of my games and I also told you, you can verify that. Yet, it seems to have gone completely over your head. God only knows why.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Any point Dunn brought up against me was proven false or when I brought up a counter point he'd just move on because he had no rebuttal. So I want to know what you find compelling about it Nancy. I won't be dying today so you should be looking elsewhere. Most of the game is for some reason taking a back seat and only having me as the point of conversation. (also odd)

You keep on saying that but that doesn’t make it so. I disagree that Dunn’s case has been rebutted. He provided a lot of valid counterpoints to yours. I’m really good at seeing through bullshit pushes - either by bad town or scum and this isn’t one of those.

I'm not saying his stuff is 'bullshit' I'm saying the points he made I refuted

How did you do that?

[Nancy Drew 39]

Alright, Pengun’s had enough time to respond by now and Ariane was one of my strongest scumreads D1, so:

HURT: Penguin

[Nancy Drew 39]

I...answered his arguments and he didn't have an answer back or he dodged my answer/question. Are you sure you've read the whole thing?

I’ll check it again later.

[Nancy Drew 39]

ive lost interest in this game.

lets talk about non game topics.

like how does everyone feel about that thing that happened yesterday at that place.
wasn't that interesting? I am unsure of how to feel beyond how strange it is that it happened.

Yeah, me too. I think it’s the lack of agency and information. I wouldn’t mind if gladiate were an option to a lynch but I like traditional lynches. Like how much info did we really get from the gladiate and now that the sword is claimed, we will even get less from the remainder of them.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Alright, Pengun’s had enough time to respond by now and Ariane was one of my strongest scumreads D1, so:

HURT: Penguin

Please refrain from using penguin gifs in games that I am in going forward.

Thx.

Why not? It’s the only fun I’m having in this game. Why would you want to deprive me of that?

[Nancy Drew 39]

PenguinPower replaces Ariane.

Where is this guy

Why aren't you gladiating me?

Probably because Dunn is town.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Hey...I'm catching up. I'll be back in two days.

Post would have been better with a gif

A penguin gif?

[Nancy Drew 39]

penguinpower is town
penguins don't have the ability to join the mafia, they aren't gangsters.

Penguin, ignore this post.

Okay, last one.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Nancy, how well would you rate yourself on verifying how strong meta-tells can be?
I think there are some leads we can pursue here in the current gamestate, I don't think I'm good at this.

I’m good at meta tells. I’m just not having as much fun as I expected I would. So, my level of engagement is waning. :/

[Nancy Drew 39]

Nancy, how well would you rate yourself on verifying how strong meta-tells can be?
I think there are some leads we can pursue here in the current gamestate, I don't think I'm good at this.

Who are your leads?

[Nancy Drew 39]

When you actually read my posts.

Nice deflection

No, it’s true. You aren’t accurately reading them. I already told you that I’m not doing anything different here, than like 98% of my games and I also told you, you can verify that. Yet, it seems to have gone completely over your head. God only knows why.

ok I also said I don't rely on meta very much
I went and ISOed two old town games of yours anyway since you keep bringing it up and in both (Forgotten Hourglass and BoR) you were more aggressive declaring scumreads then here.

Town reads and suspicions but hard scumreads in early game? Yeah, well it’s a lot easier to do that in those types of setups. My head really isn’t in this game and Penguinpower took away my last pleasure in it. :/

I have on both days mentioned players I have Fos on, I just didn’t label them scumreads, so I don’t know why that is that much of a big deal to you.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Alright, Pengun’s had enough time to respond by now and Ariane was one of my strongest scumreads D1, so:

HURT: Penguin

Please refrain from using penguin gifs in games that I am in going forward.

Thx.

Why not? It’s the only fun I’m having in this game. Why would you want to deprive me of that?

Spoiler:

[Nancy Drew 39]

Nancy, how well would you rate yourself on verifying how strong meta-tells can be?
I think there are some leads we can pursue here in the current gamestate, I don't think I'm good at this.

Who are your leads?

I'm a bit busy ATM, have to read a bit more but: What's your take on Varsoon? In my last game with him, he was town, and seemed to lack direction, and is displaying a similar behavior here. Can this be AI for him?

I dunno, I think you also can’t ignore how the mechanics are affecting play. Other than his initial freakouts at DVa and SS, nothing about his play has particularly pinged me. Why? Are you suspicious of him now?

[Nancy Drew 39]

I dunno, I think you also can’t ignore how the mechanics are affecting play. Other than his initial freakouts at DVa and SS, nothing about his play has particularly pinged me. Why? Are you suspicious of him now?

No, the opposite -- his disengaged style seems to be town-indicative to me.
I've not read any meta, and I know that Varsoon's hard to read, but I have a hunch that scum!Varsoon might try to drive the game more, generally speaking. I think Varsoon's experienced enough to not let his play be affected by mechanics.

Yeah, I agree. I’m townreading him too.

[Nancy Drew 39]

@nancy because I'm trying to ferret out scumreads from people as an alternative to the ongoing "plan" battle and you're one of those people arguing

I like this though

I’m onboard with anything that makes the game more interesting. It’s just not particularly useful in my case.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Problem is his activity looks like that of scum with MariaR who realized that MariaR was gonna be suspected heavily and decided to hardbus

Nah, Dunn is town. I’m okay with Maria being gladiated. She keeps saying she “refuted” Dunn’s case but I don’t see it. I should probably reread it but I’m too lazy but I feel pretty confident Dunn is town here. I’m a pretty defent tone reader and his tone reads pure to me.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Yeah it does
During the D1 duel he was clearly on Maria’s side, now he just flips his read? Where’s the conviction?

Practically everyone was on Maria’s side, that’s how LLD got mislynched. Maria’s behaviour just prior to thread being locked.

And I remember LLD quoting some post of Dunn’s suspecting Maria, which LLD referenced, so it’s hardly coming out of the blue.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I prefer the winky face

The winky face looks more suspicious, like you’re hinting at something, where as the tonge one, clearly means, you intend the the exact opposite of whatever you’re meaning.