Newbie 1912 [GAME COMPLETE]

[muh316]

---> Don't vote for yourself. There are very rare occasions where this is helpful in non-newbie games, but usually only for scum, so if you do it here you will certainly get scumread for it.

VOTE: Muh316 Don't tell me what to do or what not to do.

[muh316]

VOTE: Muh316

Give a reason as well.

[muh316]

Later.

Still nothing.

Im leaning towards the two inactives, because today we wont have any actually context to the game its better for town to keep people who are active (even if scum) alive because we can use them to sort out scum D2.

This sounds like you're just pushing for a policy lynch. I'm all for pushing someone that lurks because that's scummy behavior, but not for inactive players. Also, what would be the point of putting pressure on an inactive player? If someone looks like they're getting replaced, I'd rather wait for the replacement to come through than push an inactive slot.

I think this is a tvt fight

I agree.

Or double bussing.

[muh316]

Do you really feel it's double bussing? And why?

seconded

I was just playing devil's advocate on that one to see if someone was going to jump on it. I'm getting a good townread on Loopdan though. It looks like he's giving us game advancing content which is nice. It's generally towny if someone is going through the effort of reading metas.

Also, now that we've had a bit of an icebreaker UNVOTE: muh316

VOTE: MissDeadbeat

Don't you think a policy lynch on an inactive player D1 will get us less information and we'll be in the same spot as we were D1?

[muh316]

Elements, you haven't given us any TR's or strong opinions on anyone. It seems like lurking to me.

[muh316]

Thespio, why did you choose DeadBeat specifically? There's also PvtUrist, Munchmellow, and Spiral.

[muh316]

@all reads on Thespio? Namely his page 2/3 fluff and #84 scum slip.

I don't see it as a scum slip. It just looks like you're reaching too hard on that one.

I think that town doesn't have to go there to be townie, so I kind of see scum-agenda in this. And what does that even mean - that he would selfhammer if he would be L-1 on deadline and no one else to hammer?

I too find the sacrificial hero of the town story pretty annoying. But in my experience it's usually a town player that says it because if scum would say this and not follow through, that would be a clear scum-tell.

@Thespio, why haven't you removed your vote on MDB? That vote/pressure is not going anywhere.

Whenever a player replaces in, it's always bad news for scum because that player can approach the game from a different perspective than the current players. I think that we didn't really take a look at Loopdan because he was driving the game in the beginning. But Enter's recent analysis is pretty spot on.
VOTE: Loopdan

[muh316]

VOTE: MissDeadbeat

Thespio's lone vote isn't likely to mean much, but he's right. Her level of activity is unacceptable.

VOTE: PvtUrist

This is a sheep vote for Skellen. He's my only strong TR right now, and I don't have any real scumreads.

This is L-2.

IC note:

Wiki entry for Sheeping

There's only about 15 hours between these two posts. If you were trying to put pressure on MDB, surely you would need to keep a solid vote.

[muh316]

Ok if I flip town who do you lynch?

Notice how he said

if

and not when. Almost like he's not even sure that he's town.

Will post more later, this one just caught my eye.

[muh316]

Wait, I'll post something soon. I'm just really busy with real life stuff. The walls of text don't help with that either.

[muh316]

Ok if I flip town who do you lynch?

Notice how he said

if

and not when. Almost like he's not even sure that he's town.

Will post more later, this one just caught my eye.

So this one was my loophole around the prodge rule that the mod has.

Anyway, I have about 8-9 pages of reading to do. In normal mafia scum games this would take at most 10 minutes, but with Enter's walls upon walls of text this is more like 20 pages of reading.

So here's what I've gotten from my reading so far
- Loopdan is very salty
- Enter's walls of text are impossible to read. He's probably written more words than all of my essays combined in college. I plugged in his ISO to a word counter website and got 23,664 words. (Its probably like 15-18k actually because that site doesn't ignore quotes and other text from the site.). That's a bit much.
- Are there any other major scumreads besides Loopdan? Thespio has 3 votes on him but those are pretty old votes
- If Loopdan is scum, we have a confirmed town (Enter) + 1/2 other PRs + a possible night action to confirm town. Assuming someone dies, we'll have about 4/7 players to choose from to kill which is pretty good odds to me.
- If Loopdan is town, then Enter's PHD Thesis on why Loopdan is scum will be wasted (very unfortunate) but we'll have a bunch of info from votes and we can clearly follow the guys who were off wagon and on wagon.

But Enter's recent analysis is pretty spot on.

ORLY? Please elaborate.

Later.

In conclusion, everything else is getting lost amidst this clash between Enter and Loopdan. It's like when the power rangers turn into Megazord to fight the big monster. Nobody pays attention to the fights happening between the smaller people.

Speaking of the smaller battles, Magikhorse's vote on Elements is exactly what I was talking about in Post 102. I see Elements as a lurker who comes in to get his post count up but doesn't really contribute all that much.

[muh316]

Also, why are we even considering teams at this point? Nobody's flipped yet. All that theory is going to go down the drain once somebody flips green/red. The whole thing about If Loopdan then lynch Pvt. That whole discussion just seems like a waste since Loop hasn't even flipped. I'm all for it once he does flip red.

[muh316]

The same easily applies to you, except you've also got a small postcount. What's up with that?

I've just been busy with real life stuff. I'm usually a lot more active (read my meta if you don't believe me), but just have some things going on IRL. Yesterday when I came from work I saw that I had about 7-8 pages to read which was very off-putting. Then I came back today and saw there was even more so I literally forced myself to read just so I can contribute.

[muh316]

Explain why Pvt isnt even on your radar? where is Loopdan?

I think Loopdan is town hence the you and enter scum team
For pvt, he is mush less active then he was when he was scum in my last game so i have a mild town lean.
But on the off chance loopdan flips scum i will have to re-think everything at which point pvt will quite possibly be a scum read

I'm of the opinion that if loopdan flips scum pvt looks scummy, if loopdan flips town i still think it's you

Don't answer this if you can avoid it (some people already have). The reason you don't do this is because it really helps scum know who to kill - It gives away who they're gonna have a hard time lynching (note #1 townread if Loopdan flips scum).

I'd like to point out how despite Enter's comment on avoiding this discussion, Elements and Thespio continue on their discussion of possible partners when Loopdan flips. Thespio, you also acknowledged Enter's point yet continued to ask questions. Why is that?

[muh316]

EBWOP Formatting got messed up. I didn't mean to quote any of Elements posts. Ignore the above post. This should we what the post looks like.

Don't answer this if you can avoid it (some people already have). The reason you don't do this is because it really helps scum know who to kill - It gives away who they're gonna have a hard time lynching (note #1 townread if Loopdan flips scum)

I'd like to point out how despite Enter's comment on avoiding this discussion, Elements and Thespio continue on their discussion of possible partners when Loopdan flips. Thespio, you also acknowledged Enter's point yet continued to ask questions. Why is that?

[muh316]

Which fights do you mean besides Elements?

Thespio is still at L-2 and we have no idea why. That wagon was lost between the main fight. Same for PvtUrist, there was some talks of PvtUrist scum but that didn't go anywhere.

If anybody is thinking of hammering, they should wait until after Pvt posts something useful.

Please don't let a hammer drop without allowing me one more post.

I have updated reads but I'd rather wait until there is an intent to hammer.

And I'd appreciate being taken off L-1 until this happens to avoid an "accidental hammer" from one of the lurkers.

This feels weird to me. It seems like you're just buying yourself time.

Please provide a couple sentence (or even just bullet points) on why you think I'm scum.

Your play in general and because I'm still OMGUSing you from you ignoring me in the beginning of the game. Your attitude didn't help either when Enter called you out. This is the attitude I'm talking about

Spoiler:

pedit: Wow Loop. I thought you'd be better than this as an IC. The pity play is not making you look good man, just sayin'.

100% fair. I'll own this. I'll also probably never IC again. You'll see post-game that I really wanted to make this game a positive experience for newbies because we tend to lose them nowadays. But this game smacked me in the face with the reality that I shouldn't be doing this if I can't devote the time and effort to the game.

To me it comes across as trying to get town's sympathy and felt fake to me. I share Enter's points about flip-flop voting, sheeping, etc so I don't need to restate those.

Anyway, I don't think there's a point in starting up another wagon at this point. The main event in day 1 was Enter vs Loop and I want to see this battle go out to till the end.

The only thing I would add to that post is that scum!Loop would have self-hammered here before town starting looking past Loopdan-Enter.

Can you clarify this? Why would a scum player self-hammer?

Here's the thing: Everybody posting here recently is showing genuine-looking frustration.

Both scum are likely among the inactive players:
Munchmellow
Elements
Muh316
PvtUrist

There's an outside chance of scum!Thespio. I've been going back and forth on that these last pages but can't nail him down.

I'd still like responses to 477 and for the five players above to chime in before end of day. And I'd appreciate being taken off L-1 until this happens to avoid an "accidental hammer" from one of the lurkers.

Don't you think there's a higher chance of scum being from the players that are on your wagon if you so strongly feel that you're town?

[muh316]

That phrase is very unlikely to come from the mind of a town player.

lolwut I'm reading you as scum. The point is, if you were town, then surely the people who are scum are the ones on your wagon, right? So why does your list only comprise of Me, and three other people who haven't voted yet.

[muh316]

Magik, I think you're being pocketed. Loop's sweet talk might be getting to you.

[muh316]

What gets me though is that you want to let the 1v1 go "out to the end", even though that only distracts the town at this point and has gone on for way too long. This irks me greatly, especially since you're also admitting to OMGUS, which itself is a terrible thing to be holding onto for this long. Why are you concerned about him not interacting with you much earlier when you've been so lurky anyways?

Hey, I'm just trying to see Megazord take down the monster. Also, it's not just OMGUS. The OMGUS is extra fuel on top of his scummy play.

[muh316]

Ah, classic Loop. Stalling the game and trying to push another lynch just to survive another day. First he tried to push my lynch but that didn't go anywhere. As soon as he saw the opportunity of another possible wagon on Elements, he jumped on it immediately.

Its less about rushing anything and moreso HE LITERALLY SAYS HE IS TOWN AND STILL WANTS HIM DEAD. THIS IS THE SCUMMIEST POST OF THE GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
VOTE: Elements Everything put together against loop, even from what i see is only a fraction of how skummy this post is.

Sure his post was scummy but I still don't see it as a basis for a lynch. Thespio, when you said you would rather self-lynch than have a NL, isn't that sort of the same situation? In that situation, you want town dead for information. In Elements situation, he also wants town dead for information. What separates the two?

[muh316]

Is it? Lynching myself probably wouldn't be good for me then, pretend I didn't scumlean my slot while I check.

I'm not entirely buying it. This could just be a way to distance yourself from your previous slot by calling them scummy. This way, you seem like a new player and we remove our past reads on pvturist.

[muh316]

Muh is another player to watch out for. OMGUS is a terrible reason to vote anyone this late in the day, especially when the source of that OMGUS is from really early in the day. He's a SE player. If he was a newbie I'd be more lenient given that new players tend to make that argument fairly often, but he should know better than to lean on OMGUS as a reason even if it's just "fuel on the fire". That's not even mentioning the "If you so strongly feel you're town" line which is just terrible.

I'd also expect him to know how to prodge better than 306, but that's admittedly not very AI. He would've been better off saying "This is a prodge. Loop is still scummy", as that would count as enough content to reset the prod timer instead of making one of the worst nitpicks I've seen this game though. I have to wonder if he couldn't find anything better to poke at or something.

What so terrible about the "If you so strongly feel you're town" line? I've noticed that both you and Loop are both hunting for excuses to jump on wagons. First you both did it with my comment about "If you so strongly feel you're town" and then subsequently did it with Elements post. I know Loop is trying to get the wagon off himself, but I feel like you've been pocketed by him and are trying to save him no matter what chance you get.

Nobody else commented on that except for you two which just goes to show how you both are trying to reach at whatever you can get so that this Loop lynch doesn't happen.

Regarding the second point, I was skimming through the game and saw it. I knew if I said "Loop is scum" he would've thrown a fit so I avoided that.

[muh316]

If he's town, he has a PM from Nauci that proves it bona fide. It's how you presumably know your own role after all. This wording makes absolutely no sense at all unless you think he can doubt his own towniness, which is only possible if he's scum. If he's scum he won't answer you straight and means nothing. If he's town, he can't "feel town" and the question makes no sense. Besides being totally useless you're directing a question towards "scum" and expecting it to mean something.

If he's scum, then he has to "feel" town. A scum player has to fake the feeling of being a town player which is why I said that phrase. My question was also pretty clear. If you're town, then surely some of the players on your wagon are scum, yet 3/4 of his reads were off his wagon at that point. A town player would probably suspect the people on their own wagon. I felt like this is something that as a town player, you can read these things. As a scum, you have to fake your reads which also creates slip-ups, like the one I just described.

It could be opportunity, but it could also be an attempt to get pressure elsewhere and find out more information, which neither you nor Enter seem to be capable of believing in. You were giving him no such thing at the time with your inactivity, so it's really not an unreasonable town play to try and pressure the now actually productive Elements slot and work on sorting you later once you're actually going to respond to the pressure. Once again this town fails to see the other side of the coin, which is proving itself to be a pattern that just keeps repeating itself this game.

Are you his lawyer or his spokesperson? You're so vehemently defending this dude and I don't get it.

If we've been pocketed by Loop, you've been pocketed by Enter hard, but don't have any of the merits he does to make me believe you're town.

This means your scumreading Enter, right? Generally, scum pockets town yet you've called Enter a TR for the most part.

Pressuring more people is also never a bad thing if there's a legitimate cause to suspect them. Elements recognizes that the callouts that me and Thespio are pushing are legitimate and is trying to work with us and prove through their actions that they are town because of it, which in turn means our push this way is yielding informative results. If we see something suspicious, why should we not call it out to the town and get to work on figuring out what it means by applying pressure to it? Is this not exactly how Town wins games?

Jumping on one sentence isn't efficient scumhunting. But sure, I'll give this one to you. The thing that bothers me is the blatant team voting going on with you and Loop.

muh why are you nitpicking arguements, can you give us something real, a read you actually have?

Let's lynch loop first.

muh didn't sheep me, he had his own reasons for voting.

No...no he didn't. His vote was a result of your case and how aggressively you came into the game against Loop.

Yes, the argument he made was convincing enough for me to solidify my vote on him. If I see a strong case, I'll evaluate it and if I agree I'll go with it. It's how I always play. Similar to what Magik and Loop are doing with each other. Except I don't feel the need to repeat arguments to get my word count up.

[muh316]

I certainly haven't seen anything significant from him either. If you wouldn't mind pointing this out, it'd help.

We have 29 pages on D1, yet I've only seen 2 strong cases develop. This game hasn't had any significant development at all besides Loop/Enter and maybe this Elements wagon.

[muh316]

Let's say Muh and I are both at L-1. You vote me there?

What information do you think we gain from your pov when muh flips in either circumstace?

The information we gain is that Loop managed to sneak his way past D1 and get a town player lynched for pushing his wagon.

I honestly don't understand how loopdan has managed to worm his way out from being no.1 lynch target

It's a really sneaky game he's played. He tried making the town feel bad for lynching him by playing the IC card and saying he was trying to make this a positive experience for all. Then he went to the sacrificial hero route by saying that at least we won't have to have any more claims. After gaining town sympathy, he's pushing a lynch on another player so he could survive D1.

The 20+ pages of D1 filler are Loop trying to get past D1, thus increasing the chances that scum wins.

Anyway, I don't post in the mornings. Will post more stuff in the evening when I have time. I just couldn't help but comment when I saw this.

[muh316]

Cool, we're getting a Loop lynch. Can't wait to see what happens.

[muh316]

Magik, why didn't you push for a Muh lynch at EoD after Elements claimed?

Do you think it would be wise to risk a no lynch?

[muh316]

Muh, since you are here... what do you make of Element's claim? Like how likely do you think it is that it's legit vs. a fakeclaim?

I'm not 100% convinced of the claim but it would be foolish to risk lynching a PR D1. We just have to see how it goes down D2. Also, couple hours left before the deadline guys. Please hammer whoever is in charge of it.

[muh316]

I'll post more stuff tonight but since I don't want to be prodded so here's a short bit of what's to come.

While I accused Loop of pocketing Magik D1, I think the case may be that Magik was pocketing Loop. Magik then conveniently voted for Loop while still defending him. More on that tonight!

[muh316]

His announced attack against Magik kind of fits into this. I am all open for that, that's not the point, but it comes completely out of nowhere.

I'm not going to announce what I'm going to attack, that would be weird. How would you have preferred I call out Magik?

I'm actually really surprised no one else is questioning their read on Enter after those flips. I'm not sure what that means yet but I'll think on it a bit more.

Enter's been one of those reads where he was going to be a TR no matter which way Loop flipped. He's still on my TR list because the play doesn't look like it comes from scum.

Post 157 and post 158 both come a few hours apart with no posting in between and go from "I disagree with most of Enters arguments" straight into a vote because their thinking on Loop is in line.

It could be a genuine progression but I don't view it as more organic than Loops in any way.

I don't understand this. 157 is from Skellen and 158 is from me. I don't recall saying that I disagree with Enters arguments initially. I even stated that a replacement usually views the game from a different perspective and their reads can be quite accurate (which wasn't the case this time).

And then he just goes after me out of nowhere, and it's wild speculation that's a total 180 of what he was saying yesterday, and without voting or pressuring me with it at all. For a first attempt at making a splash, it's overall underwhelming.

I clearly said I will post tonight. That was my morning prodge just to let y'all know I'm here. Also, how do you want me to go after you? Should I give you fair warning 2 pages in advance? That argument doesn't make sense to me.

So now for my D2 reads...

The two big wagons on D1 were Loop and Elements. Since it's usually 1 scum on wagon and 1 scum off wagon, I'll make the case for what I think are the possible scum suspects.

I strongly believe that there was scum on the Elements wagon

. The reason being that Loop had claimed VT in post 251. At the point it was no longer advantageous for scum to be on his wagon. If I was scum I would want to lynch another guy or force another PR claim.

On Elements Wagon

Magik
Loop - Confirm Town
Munch
Thespio

Off Elements and Loop Wagon

RCEnigma


With that out of the way, the

On Wagon

leaves Magik, Munch, and Thespio. Between the three I'd say that Magik is scummiest. This is in regards to his D1 play which I felt was sort of opportunistic.
Let's break it down.

The first vote on Elements with a scumlean on Loop. At this point Loop had already claimed VT so it wouldn't be advantageous for scumMagik to push Loop anymore.

Spoiler:

Here's my readslist as it stands, now that I've finished reading and processing everything.

Skellen - Town
Thespio, Enter -Townlean
PvtUrist, muh316, Munchmellow, -Null Lurkers
Loopdan- Slight Scumlean
Elements -Scum

A lot of this goes without saying (Skellen has a really easy to follow line of thinking, Ptv, Muh, and Munch are all lurking) but my big ping right now is Elements.

Elements has posted very little to actually push the game forwards at all. Unlike Muh, Pvt, and Munch, they have a lot more activity and still don't have anything noteworthy to ask or poke at? For as much as my slot hasn't done much until I replaced in, this slot has done nothing all game to push things forwards and be proactive, and that concerns me even more than Loopdan does right now. If you want an "active lurker" this here's the closest thing we've got right now.

VOTE: Elements

If I'm thinking through the minds of scum, scum!Magik would have seen that a Loop lynch is inevitable, but instead of tunneling [Like me/Enter], he would branch out to other players so that once the Green flip happened he wouldn't be accused of the things I [muh] am being accused of. However, he continued to give Loop scumreads in the beginning. Then transitioned into a friend for Loop so that once he flipped green, we would see him as the only advocate of the town player. That would get him major townie points in everyone's book.

Then there's PR baiting which gets scumMagik to his desired goal of finding out our PR.

Spoiler:

My big question is why claim that you're a PR and not say what PR you are? That makes it feel like you're trying to avoid being counterclaimed or something. I see one possible reason for it, but I wanna hear it from your mouth.

And then the subsequent jump on Loop's wagon.
---------------------------------------------------
Now for the players on the

Off Wagon

It's RCE. The initial self scumread still looks fake to me. Also he never voted all of D1 outside of RVS. Didn't bother putting pressure on anyone and just laid low for D1. That's obvious lurker behavior.

Munch is confirmed scum now that elements and Loop have both flipped town, I'll go back over why on one of my breaks when I've got a bit of time.

I didn't really see much on Munch from you after this. You just began targeting me.
---------------------------------------------------
Thespio has been of the my biggest null reads. Despite being one of the most active players here with more than 180 posts, I can't get a read on him. It's weird but that's somebody I would need to study under a microscope to really understand their behavior. Which is hard considering he has so many posts.

[muh316]

Nice, I got pagetop.
Also
VOTE: Magik

[muh316]

I can agree with that. Another thing, I don't really think Magik tried to get Loop on his side to push lynches. Not that he was leading any pushes so maybe it would just be under-utilization of a pocket? Though I think Magik is pretty capable and could have used it to manipulate Loop if a pocket was his goal.

They both went after me and Elements. In the later stages of D1 they were voting together.

[muh316]

@Magik, your defense against my case was pretty good so I'll give you points for that. I still think that you were hunting for townie points. First with the advocacy for Loop and then trying to extend D1 as much as possible.

This is also basically saying "you were pocketing Loop to look townier", which itself is questionable given how mutual it was between the two of us as I said above.

In my mind, that is the perfect pocket. Scum pockets town so hard that the townie starts to advocate for scum.

A full readslist from you is still well past due at that.

I thought my initial post had conveyed sort of a readlist but I'll put a clear one up.

Town
Muh
Skellen
Enter
Thespio - Null
Munch
RCE, Magik
Scum

Muh's reason is a very, very lackluster "I think it looks fake" with no explanation on why and "I agree with Enter on top of that". That barely qualifies as an explanation given how vague and easy to make up it is. Had he actually explained why it "felt fake" I'd be inclined to agree with you on that.

The pity posting by Loop was fake and you even called him out for it. I didn't think I would have to further explain that one.

I thought your vote on Magik was coming out of nowhere because of what I got from your posts from the first day the logical approach for you should be to look over the Loop wagon as you kind of implied that there should be the highest chance to find a scum among the Loop voters if Loop is town in #490. Going by that statement shouldn't it have been your top priority to examine the wagon since Loop flipped as town? Apparently it was important enough to you to complain in #525 that Loop didn't do that, although he did that, just he only scumread you of the people on the Loop wagon.

At that point I didn't know we were going to pressure someone to PR claim. Once I saw the PR claim, I felt that the elements wagon has a higher chance of having scum because they don't want to lynch the VT. They'd rather force more claims to narrow down their night targets.

What do you mean here? RCE wasn't even talking much about you after this (I think two posts at most), instead more about Munch and his wagon theories.

I missed it, where is he talking about Munch in detail?

Yet your first Day 2 action is to look for people who were not on the Loop wagon. Oh yes, you mentioned Thespio (I count him because he was also on the original Loop wagon who put Loop to L-1 for the first time), but basically it was "So many posts, can't read him, null". Well, that effort tells everything.

I agree, my effort in this game has been far less than I would like. That's partly because of real life commitments at work.

[muh316]

In regards to RCE's slot. I know this isn't really considered AI in general, but I think pvtUrist replaced out intentionally to clear out his slot. I looked at his post history and he's been active in his other games, even leading up to his replacement. I've seen this strategy used a couple times by scum who replace out their slot once they get pressured. They think it gives their replacement a clean slate to work with.

Tying this in with RCE's initial self-scumread, this looks like an attempt at "cleaning" a slot that was heavily scumread.

[muh316]

What made you scum read him? If it’s my case why am I null?

His scumread was a process of elimination given the usual one off-wagon and one on-wagon approach. Combine that with having no votes, an overally scummy slot, and then self-reading scum. Then after looking into pvt's history, it sort of confirms an attempt to cleanse the slot.

You're null because I literally have no idea what to think of you. Sometimes you're towny and sometimes you're scummy so I don't know where to put you. The other thing is you have so many posts and frankly I don't think I'll be able to go through all of them. I don't have the motivation to do it yet but that may come up in the future.

[muh316]

In regards to RCE's slot. I know

this isn't really considered AI

in general, but I think pvtUrist replaced out intentionally to clear out his slot. I looked at his post history and he's been active in his other games, even leading up to his replacement.

I've seen this strategy used a couple times by scum who replace out their slot once they get pressured.

They think it gives their replacement a clean slate to work with.

Tying this in with RCE's initial self-scumread,

this looks like an attempt at "cleaning" a slot that

was

heavily scumread.

It really urks me how you can try to condemn someone but not really, you are playing the border. Ill highlight the text above im referring to. You start out stating this post doesnt matter because its not ai, then you try to agree with us while using past tense verbage to describe their actions as if they arent anymore. this is a huge red flag for me, because to me if you are scum this isnt your partner. and town dont step on eggshells to discuss everyones number one sr. It looks like you are trying to agree with us without actually looking too deep at RCE, so if RCE shows he is town you wont be his first pick.

No, that's not what I was going for. In my experience, replacements and activity aren't really considered AI. I knew I was going to be called out for that so I started out by saying that. I'm not going to build my case upon these actions but they also give support to my scumread on RCE. As I've stated, him and Magik are my top two scumreads so this case isn't coming out of nowhere. I'd rather focus on Magik and pressure him since the rest of you are doing a good job with RCE.

Then I used past tense because pvt WAS scumread during that point in the game. He was at L-2 in the very early stages of the game and then we all sorta forgot about him because of the replacement. If I was talking about RCE, I would use present tense.

[muh316]

Would this have been different if Elements claimed to be a VT instead? If the answer is yes, you need to reconsider exactly why this is your focus at all.

I see where you're coming from now. My reasoning was that scum wouldn't want to be on a VT wagon and would rather shift their focus elsewhere. But I can see why someone would want to branch out to other possible suspects. I was pretty much set on lynching Loop D1 so my mindset was different from yours. The pocketing stuff still stands so I'll downgrade you to a

FOS: Magik

UNVOTE: Magik

It's also really convenient that it was both easy and the only thing you had at that time besides copycatting Enter. It makes it sound like you didn't really have anything before and just decided to hop on and ride when it looked like a good lynch target. Loop called it opportunistic in 266, and I can't help but agree that it's a really easy case to jump aboard off of such an easy reason and ride to the finish.

Here's the response to that.

Spoiler:

Yes, the argument he made was convincing enough for me to solidify my vote on him. If I see a strong case, I'll evaluate it and if I agree I'll go with it. It's how I always play.

I'd vote RCE right now but I'm not comfortable putting him at L-1 just yet. So yet another

FOS: RCE

[muh316]

I'd rather focus on Magik and pressure him since the rest of you are doing a good job with RCE.

Also, I know I'm going to get asked about this. I hadn't read Magik's rebuttal when I wrote this. I usually read posts on the newest page first and move my way backwards.

[muh316]

Since Enter has asked for this, I'll post all of my reads with their explanations.

Enter

: Town. The hardtunnel pretty much solidified him as town and enough has been said about him. He's pretty much a universal townread at this point.

Skellen

: Town. The overall play doesn't really seem scummy to me. There's thoughtful discussion on her part and I don't see her as scum yet. Though the recent analysis on me is wrong which I'll respond to.

These are my two townreads at the moment. As for scum.

Munch

: Lighter scumlean. This one goes back to the Elements wagon.

Thespio

: Scumlean. Still hard to evaluate because of the massive amounts of posts and I don't know if he's the best candidate for a lynch today.

Magik

: Scum. He had a pretty good defense but my point still stand from before.

RCE

: Scum. I think this is who we should be lynching today. I think there's the strongest case against him for scum today. The slot has just been scummy overall and paired with my theory on the replacement I think this is the best shot at getting scum today.

VOTE: RCE

[muh316]

Ill answer Skellens post and respond this this laughable post from munch, I know you have been less active but when your entire case lies behind 500 posts ago its kind of funny. but since you are either still catching up or ignoring the rest of the game ill address it all.

Yes, please do, so we can laugh together.
And as said, you do a lot of townie stuff too. But if we should forget scummy stuff, because they happend long ago, then nobody should mention Pvt again...

Pvt had less then 5 posts and then swapped out, we can only talk about him in terms of the past. Its like any other topic, if someone dies you cant continue to evaluate them. do you tr pvt/Rce? im at work so my big reply will be delayed

So why did you have an issue with me talking about pvt in past tense?

[muh316]

I can't honestly see someone scummier at the moment than him as his Day 1 play looks to me like the blueprint of scum play. Can't be helped that he did at Day 2 exactly that what I would have expected from scum-muh with going only after people outside the Loop wagon as it would be smarter for scum to not fish in the same pool you are in to reduce your own hideout.

Let's take a look at the intersection between the Loop wagon and Elements wagon.

Enter
Muh
Elements
Magik
Skellen
Thespio
Munch
Loop


Out of these 8 people, we have 2 confirmed town. 1 is myself so I'll take that out. The other is Enter who's not in scum discussion so I'll take him out. Let's also take you out as well. That leaves 4.

Enter

Muh

Elements

Magik

Skellen

Thespio
Munch

Loop

This leaves everyone that was on the Elements wagon. If I look at the Loop wagon the only person that's scum for me is Magik. If you look at it from my point of view the Loop wagon doesn't make sense to even look at.

[muh316]

Let's take a look at the intersection between the Loop wagon and Elements wagon.

Mixed up my discrete mathematics. I meant union of the two sets.

[muh316]

A single thought's been hammering away at my mind on the work floor, and it's that there's been a lot of casing that seems to boil down to "X is scum, most likely with Muh". If so many people are likely scum with Muh, then why are we not flipping him to knock out the others that don't work out well with any other scumbuddy and give ourselves a good shot of catching scum today? Worst case we lose a townie that isn't contributing much reasoning at all and is scummy right before 5-player LYLO, all while narrowing down the list of potential scum.

The "worst-case" mentality isn't very pro-town don't you think? How comfortable are you going into LYLO? Also, can I please get a reason of why I'm considered scummy. The only points I've seen so far are sheeping Enter D1 which I responded to and on D1 you even agreed that I made a valid point.

Yes, the argument he made was convincing enough for me to solidify my vote on him. If I see a strong case, I'll evaluate it and if I agree I'll go with it. It's how I always play. Similar to what Magik and Loop are doing with each other. Except I don't feel the need to repeat arguments to get my word count up.

The former I won't blame you for, even though I disagree with the result. Still, I wouldn't be repeating arguments if the same questions and scenarios weren't being thrown at us, so thanks for the shade I guess?

[muh316]

@Muh, you voted RCE but he isnt in your case in any way as far as your math goes.

He's in my 1 off wagon and 1 on wagon formula coming from my first post of D2.

[muh316]

Drifted a little bit apart, the point is you went in a straight line after Loop the first day without caring too much about the rest and once Loop dropped dead you went in a straight line after Magik/RCE. And this something I can't get behind as townie. One of the greatest problems of town is that almost no townies found each other, if we exclude me and Enter. Thus I see a lot of second-guessing (even from Enter) therefore it's noticable for me if someone just goes with an odd certainty after one target after the other. I am seeing it only with one other person and that is RCE who has transformed into a sitting duck sticking to Munch. I simply couldn't do it at this state of the game.

I disagree. If I find someone scummy I'm going to go after them and ask them questions. I didn't spend D1 speculating on possible scum suspects like others did that were contingent on Loops flip. There were so much discussion of "If Loop is scum/town, then this player is also scum/town" all of which is now pointless. That's probably why you didn't see me write potential scum suspects. Adding on to that, I had some back and forth with Magik D1, so this isn't something that came out of nowhere.

Also, didn't Magik go in a straight line after me starting D2? Didn't RCE go after Munch? Didn't Thespio go after RCE and Me? If you can't get behind me going after other players and calling them scummy, then you should also be calling out the other players.

[muh316]

While I am at it, care to elaborate what on the Elements wagon gave you the scumlean on Munch?

Munch is sort of that point where I don't trust him to be town so I'd rather leave him on scumlean list. That's why he's closer to town than my other scum suspects. This has to do with my Elements wagon theory and he was on it so I'm not readily able to accept him as town.

Also what is it that makes the case against RCE that strong in your eyes? As I can see the points brought up are the replacement thing. I already commented on it how it could be interpreted in multiple ways and don't really want to list all possible ideas. In the end one can only lose him-/herself in these and come up with a biased interpretation that fits to the own agenda.

There's just the general feel from pvtUrist's initial showing in the game and I just can't shake the replacement theory from my head. Adding on to that is RCE attacking munch and then never giving us that detailed analysis.

Looking at the slot as a whole, given the inactivity, lack of voting, and scummy D1 entrance it makes a good case for a lynch.

[muh316]

Not one bit. Day 1 screwed things over too badly, and now we're facing a bad information shortage since neither Loopdans flip nor Elements flip actually cleared much of anything up.

What sort of information do you hope to gain from my lynch?

I don't have a single clue how we could possibly take you to MYLO/LYLO with so little substance to you and such a high chance that you're scum trying to sneak under the radar here. You'd either be a liability as a poor player that's also lynchbait or scum we don't want making it that far. Neither is good under MYLO/LYLO pressure.

Cool, so what have we gotten from you besides pushing wagons on town players and fluff? And the occasional banter with Enter?

[muh316]

@Magik
D2 you've only contributed to a deathtunnel against me. I haven't seen you call out other players at all. You have a high word count which makes it look like you've put in effort but there's not real substance to it. So I find it hypocritical of you to accuse me of being anti-town when we've seen you with similar behavior, albeit with a higher word-count.

[muh316]

Take a look at it from a scum perspective. Why would a scum player ever wagon on a town player hard and put a target on their back? If I was a newbie with a join date of January 2019, this would make perfect sense. I've been on this site since 2009. If you look at my meta where I've played scum, I'm a lot more active since the role is much more exciting. When I play town I do tend to relax a bit and go with the flow.

In addition, all the cases against me point to my D1 activity where I was dead set on lynching Loop. If you consider my D2 activity, there's a contrast because I'm no longer tunneling.

[muh316]

"Asking questions". Well, you were pretty generous when it came to Loop. Went back and looked through your posts on Day 1 to find only one question. And that was the one why he wasn't looking on his own wagon for scum, which was even wrong. Not counting the general questions like the one with the scum-selfhammer or risking a no-lynch with last minute wagon. You voted him, judged him guilty from the beginning and had no interest to question anything.

Sure, with Loop I had an inherent bias from the beginning. That's why I didn't ask him questions. D2, I don't have a strong bias against Magik which is why I did ask him questions and push him.

The other point was that you actually were speculating (if one could call it like that) with throwing Thespio, Elements and Pvt in just to neglect them. This is in hindsight for me particularly noteworthy as you basically said in #1201 "Looking at the slot as a whole, given the inactivity, lack of voting, and scummy D1 entrance it makes a good case for a lynch.". These are all things that applied to the Pvt/RCE slot at the first day. Yet besides the self-scumread comment there was nothing in that direction.
Btw would it really have mattered less to you if RCE would have hammered Loop/Elements or parked his vote offside the main attraction on you or someone else?

I admit on D1 I wasn't really scumhunting as much as I should have. However, there was a giant gap between pvt's last post and RCE's first post of maybe a dozen pages. At that point my focus had shifted completely towards Loop whilst I also did have a bit to say about Elements. Since the game had heated up so much, I didn't want to start another wagon or push something on a fairly new player.

[muh316]

To come back to that, this situation is exactly why I am feeling so uncomfortable about the current state of the game. Everything is so wide-spread and deadlocked that I can't help but feel like everything is comfortable for scum or we really have both scum up for the lynch. I don't know what to make out of it. And we have nearly ran out of time.

Right, this is exactly why I don't want town to go into LYLO because I feel like this is a guaranteed scum victory unless our PR (if we have one) pulls some useful information.

After my lynch, the wagon will probably be Thespio, Skellen, Magik, and somebody else. Out of these 4, I don't think we will have the information to find the scum between them. I'm assuming Enter isn't voting for me. That leaves 3/4 scummy players on my wagon (Thespio, Magik, {Munch,RCE}) which is going to be tough to evaluate come D3.

[muh316]

Before anyone else votes me, just to make this clear. My D1 play was heavily biased against Loop. I saw Enter's case against him and thought this was an open and shut case. I got lazy and felt that nothing else had to be done. The whole battle between them was extremely entertaining to watch from the sidelines and I was eager for it to come to an end. That's the reason why I didn't do my part as well as I should have.

However, I'm sure everyone can say that D2 my involvement has been a complete 180 from then. Before you hammer, I'd just like everyone to evaluate me based on what I've done D2 as well and not just tunnel my D1 play. Lynching me for sheeping on D1 isn't a valid reason to me. If I do get lynched today, I encourage everyone to take another look at those who have picked up this issue and voted for me.

I still feel that an RCE lynch is going to get us the better chance at hitting scum so I'll keep my vote on him. I'm going to sleep now in a couple minutes. Hopefully tomorrow morning we come to a conclusion that's best for town. My reads still stand at where they were before.

[muh316]

Also, this should clear me to some degree, he was Jailor, If he thought it was me wouldnt he jail me?

This doesn't really clear you because you could have easily had your scum partner make the kill in the case that you are scum. That way nobody gets roleblocked.

[muh316]

I just woke up. I don't think a claim is useful at this point though.

[muh316]

VOTE: Muh

We're in LYLO right now. It's not a good idea to throw around votes like that. Putting someone at L-2 can easily turn into a scum rush and we'll lose.

@Munch, what happened? You missed the vote by 6 minutes.

@Enter, weren't you supposed to come online after you had unvoted me?

[muh316]

If you were town, you wouldn't be asking the questions you're asking.

Why's that? A no-lynch is definitely more advantageous for scum. The two of you were responsible for the hammer on D2.

[muh316]

still think its muh but im not going to vote until later in the day to avoid a lolhammer loss.

Ill vote him soon, I dont want to leave him L-1 so early, Ill be off work in 4 hours (last day in hell before my new job) then Ill vote.

Which one is it? Again, at this point an L-2 could be a loss for the town.

[muh316]

Not really interested in casing right now. Not really interested in anything but a muh lynch. Vote him w/ me.

This seems oddly familiar...

[muh316]

Not really interested in casing right now. Not really interested in anything but a muh lynch. Vote him w/ me.

This seems oddly familiar...

Oddly familiar to what? Please remind me this game when I refused to case someone.

I'm referring to the second part.

[muh316]

Can we actually wait until everyone's gotten a chance to post. We might have a tracker who had a successful night action.

[muh316]

Magik or Enter, can one of you unvote? You can vote me again after munch has posted something especially if he's a PR. I'm very uneasy about the L-1.

[muh316]

No, it's important we talk about PRs. If I get lynched we lose the entire game.

[muh316]

VOTE: Thespio We've caught him boys.

This means we're playing the goon/goon setup with only one PR. If you don't know already I'm a VT.

[muh316]

It's very convenient that he investigated our only universal town read. That just makes him the perfect candidate for a N3 kill so that we don't have any other choices.

[muh316]

I see a clear Thespio/Magik team right here. Magik's the only one so far who's believed the claim. The night results are way too convenient for scum given that he didn't bother investigating someone like RCE,Munch, or Magik given that those are the town's most confusing reads.

It also plays perfectly into the scum plan of getting me lynched today so that they can get a win easily. If you were so convinced that I'm scum then why wouldn't you investigate somebody who could be a possible partner? Did you leave any breadcrumbs that you are the tracker?

Finally, it's also extremely convenient that you said I carried out the NK. If I was scum, I would have probably had my partner carry out the kill since we would know about the possibility of a tracker.

[muh316]

I'm with Enter here. I'll explain why your claims are bogus after Munch posts. For now, I would suggest that everyone not jump to a lynch just yet. We still have 6 days left to discuss everything.

[muh316]

I'm with Enter here. I'll explain why your claims are bogus after Munch posts. For now, I would suggest that everyone not jump to a lynch just yet. We still have 6 days left to discuss everything.

How are you with enter, he hasn't said anything yet, he called my role. if you are with him you too believe I'm tracker.

Did you read what I said?

We will talk right after munch posts.

[muh316]

I think the most glaring issue with Thespio's claim is this.

Despite getting a confirmed townread on Enter, he continued to do scumread him on D2. As a townie, this serves no purpose and doesn't advance the game at all. I would suggest you guys read Thespio's posts from ISO 187 onwards. Here's a sample of what he said about Enter AFTER he supposedly got the town read from his night action.

Spoiler:

Can everyone tell me one thing Enter has done, one post, one anything, that makes him a town read?

Oh dang there it is. You putting the people who didnt shift. Beyond that your reason for lynching me is that im omgusing, except im not, ive not voted you im reading your iso. i can summarize it:

Tunnels Loopdan
interacts with me (still tunnelling loopdan)
Tunnels Loopdan
Attacks Horse (still tunnelling loopdan)
Lynches Loopdan
Loopdan flips green
Puts everyone who was off loopdan or was hesitant to vote loop on their scum list.


I just want to know why you think scum werent on your wagon, and im not TR RCE you are just the most obvscum right now, FOS on Enter.

This just plays more into the fakeclaim. He only faked Enter being town because he's the easiest target to kill for N3 just in case the plan doesn't work out. This way the 4 of us that remain have a harder time figuring out who's the final scum since we don't have any remaining strong TRs.

If I was a tracker who just got a town confirmation on a player, I would definitely not pressure that player especially when nobody else is. I would much rather use my time to focus on other players who could possibly be scummy. Furthermore, I didn't see Thespio try to defend Enter either.


@Enter, during your interaction with Thespio on D2, did you ever feel that he had a confirmed town read on you as a tracker?

[muh316]

I missed that part of no result. But that just ties into the convenience of it all. I'm not even going to ask for Magik's opinion since he's Thespio's partner. But for the rest of you, don't you think that this is all a little too convenient from a scum perspective? Getting no result on D1 and then getting a scum result D2. It's the perfect strategy when looking at it from a fakeclaim.

Then comes out with the fact that Thespio didn't really have to claim. I was already at L-2 at that point, so I could have easily been lynched within a few real life days of discussion. Why would a PR bother claiming and risking getting NK'd N3? They would be far more valuable on D4.

I want you guys to look at the pattern of posting from Thespio. He's gotten really aggressive and changed his style which is typically an indication of lying behavior.

[muh316]

If muh or munch are scum, one of you should have counterclaimed thespio, prolly

Right, I've been on this site for almost 10 years now. If I was scum that is exactly what I would have done to create confusion in the town.

[muh316]

My issue is that you're pleading to Enter instead of refuting that following you to a kill wasn't possible. It wouldn't be if you're VT.

That's the reason why I've said this is a fake claim. He's scum trying to frame me so that scum can get their D3 victory quick.

[muh316]

Now muh, I HAVE TO CLAIM BECAUSE IF WE DONT KILL YOU WE LOSE AND YOU WIN, we are in MYLO, if we lynch the wrong person or no one we lose, even though I die tonight we get an extra day where it’s 2/1, thing is I personally would beat myself if I was scum because I was being tr and this almost certainly is so overwhelmingly risky, which is why it would make no sense, You and Munch make so much more looking at how you both lurk, munch takes a full day, if he’s scum you are sitting in a PT debating a CC.

So why did you claim when we had 6 real life days left in the day? I was on my way to getting lynched already. If you were really a PR you would have at least waited to keep your identity sealed as much as possible. Possible until 72 hours before deadline.

[muh316]

Also, Thespio's above post is just a bunch of nonsense WIFOM.

[muh316]

Notice the two muh/munch have the same case against my claim, muh is again just echoing people.

I started the whole accusation against your fakeclaim...

Your writing style has changed as well and it's so obvious that you are lying. The CAPS and pushiness is similar to what you did when Elements supposedly "slipped up" and you're doing it again just to get the town behind you.

[muh316]

@Thespio
The wagon on me before your claim was RCE and Magik. With your vote that would put me at L-1. Any sensible PR would make their best effort to convince either Enter or Munch that I'm scum and lynch me which wouldn't have been too hard. This early claim makes literally no sense from a town perspective. It is however, the most convenient thing to do for scum.

[muh316]

I got called out for having a PR, imagine me telling town to wait 6 days while I decided if I wanted to claim.

Were you at L-1? There was no real need for you to claim. You could have still pushed my lynch without this "claim" of yours.

[muh316]

Yeah it kind of pisses me off, munch should have just hammered, now we are in LYLO and we could have got scum, still think its muh but im not going to vote until later in the day to avoid a lolhammer loss.

Hmmmm, why would you want to avoid a lolhammer loss by not voting meif I've already been confirmed scum? You wouldn't have said this if you had investigated me.

I still think we should give everyone time to talk and hope we can catch a slip up.

Then proceeds to claim a few hours later to get a quick lynch.

Ill vote him soon, I dont want to leave him L-1 so early, Ill be off work in 4 hours (last day in hell before my new job) then Ill vote.

Why wouldn't you want to leave confirmed scum at L-1 early?


Your initial posts are inconsistent with the results you got from your "tracker" night actions.

[muh316]

You were barely active all game popping up at convenient times for town cred, but you made a mistake, you got active only when you got accused, look at yesterday, you only get active before hammer and dissapear before the end.

I was pretty active day 2. I've already explained my reasons for not being active D1.

There's also something called a timezone. We live in different timezones. I live in US Central time which means it' noon right now. The deadline was at 7AM Central time. I wake up at 8:30AM. I'm not going to stay up all night for a game of mafia.

[muh316]

This is exactly what you said i would do as a real town pr, try to push conversation, try to learn, and I dont want you to die rn, I want you to keep talking, Im 100% OK waiting until 1 day remaining til we kill you, because the more you talk, and munch talks, the more you give him away. The reason I dont think he CC, is because he didnt want to risk dying and going into the final day just you and two town. So please, keep posting. I also live in central time US, the activity is mid day for us to about 6, its not late, that is not an excuse.

Right, but why would you claim? Now the entire conversation has shifted towards the claim and has moved away from the scumreads people had on me.

Activity for me on weekdays is usually in the evenings since I'm working during the day. During weekends I'm all over the place. If you see my last post of D2, I explicitly stated I was going to sleep, so your argument about disappearing before the hammer isn't valid. You're really reaching hard here.

I thought you were in a different timezone since I see you posting at like 1-2AM but you could just be a late sleeper.

[muh316]

He claimed because I asked him to. He should have opened with vote but he didn't. The argument is dumb.

So tell me this, what advantage does he have as town to claim? If I was a tracker PR I wouldn't have claimed on the insistence of just one player.

Let's assume that he's the PR and I'm scum. He could have easily pushed my lynched without the claim. With that we would have likely had Enter killed N3. That leaves Thespio(PR),Magik,Munch, RCE. Out of those three one of those would be confirmed scum/town and worst-case, town would be left to lynch between two options.

Now continuing with the assumption that I'm scum. Thespio claims and gets me lynched. He's NK'd the following night. That leaves the lynch pool at Enter, Magik, Munch, and RCE which is a much larger pool to choose from.

From a strategic standpoint this makes no sense for town. From a scum standpoint this makes sense to get the quick victory.

[muh316]

I’m fairly certain Enter and Magik are town

, RCE is less scum a this point then munch, I’ll follow munch tonight in the chance that I live, I doubt that I do though.
The wagon looks town to me (PEDIT: was basically beat out by rce here) with Magic already on board us as a team would be stupid when we could have just tried to get a quick hammer off, I tr Magik HARD, so hard it freaks me out.

Next is enter who I’m looking to lead now, they’re doing a good job and their hesitation whole it could be staged and it could be a Role Cop I personally think he’s town

. That leaves the other 3, I assume mah or munch is rc andthey chose Magik then enter based in their slow development of reads, I’ve felt something has been off about munch since D1 no one here can deny they have as well, muh was loops scum read, so muh echos town and pushes his lynch, never gives any lists or anything and we kill loop.

Great pocketing attempt going on here.

[muh316]

he isnt going to come out and say we got him

No, I said that.

VOTE: Thespio We've caught him boys.

Theres this thing we do where we post reads, and all game ive read them like this for the most part, and them me.

Did you forget your FOS on Enter and your argument on D2? Then you calling him out for his behavior and saying "we're not gonna have you tunnel anymore." Now it's all turned into, "Lets look to Enter for leadership."

[muh316]

Im not sure what Muh means. Are you saying mod lied and enter is scum? I said the No result made me suspicious but after clashing I decided he was definitely town.

No, the mod didn't lie. You lied because your claim is entirely fake and honestly I'm having a hard time understanding why the town is actually considering the claim (except for your scum partner Magik of course).

What I was talking about is how you're sweet talking Enter and calling him the leader when during D2 you were calling him a dummy. It's obvious pocketing and a 180 from yesterday.

[muh316]

Thespio was clearly talking about you admitting to the town that you are scum, not you calling Thespio out as scum. This goes to show how blind you are regarding him right now. Same thing with your callout on him "pocketing Enter", which doesn't really indicate much of anything.

In the end it all comes down to Enter and RCE making their choice, and causing chaos doesn't help them at all and only aids the scum. Both of you need to stop this 1v1 and let them make their call on their own terms.

You have this tendency of becoming another player's spokesperson.

[muh316]

Both of you need to stop this 1v1 and let them make their call on their own terms.

And not defend my case for why Thespio is scum? I know your his scum partner so it would be in your best interest that everybody believe his claim.

[muh316]

Soooo.... slow day, just on a personal level, i only work at my old firm for like 3 more days, should i just quit? im really bored.

I don't know what industry you work in but for software engineers we try not to burn bridges when leaving a company. That way you can continue using them as a reference or go back to the old company if you need to. You also have to figure out how it's going to affect you in terms of getting your paycheck or any left over benefits.

[muh316]

Today with no CC it would be unwise to kill me, especially since the night will confirm my role, If you dont buy my claim who does that put next on the chopping block for you?

With 72 hours left in the day and no other significant developments, it's far too risky to look outside of lynching either me or you. If we start looking outside this pool, town's chances of lynching scum are lowered significantly. Within our pool, there's a 50% chance of catching scum because one of us is lying (it's you).

[muh316]

I didn’t say to look outside, I’m making a point, if I’m scum a fakeclaim is dumb, it can be countered and it puts me in line even though I wasn’t even next to be lynched

A fakeclaim is very convenient for scum in the goon/goon setup where it's guaranteed that there's no possible counterclaim.

[muh316]

Even with Goon/Goon as a possibility, it's been pretty solidly established that Thespio has been playing like a power role enough that Enter detected those signs and called him on it. Either this is something Thespio had planned from the beginning of the game and put into their play so subtly that it got Enter thinking it or it's simply true to begin with.

Therein lies a point: it's nearly impossible to fake a PR's playstyle so subtly without underdoing or overdoing it (which either makes it unnoticeable or so blatant as to be useless), and doing so requires an exorbitant amount of skill. It makes no sense for Thespio to simultaneously be playing really awkwardly/poorly and with the near godlike skill and subtlety necessary to fake the minute signs of being a PR in this manner. Him being a legitimate PR is the only real way his play makes much sense, despite its weaknesses and the chance of 2 Goons.

I wouldn't expect any less from his scum partner. You're stating his "Godlike skill" as fact whereas it's a matter of opinion.

Also, now that you brought it up, I never found out why Enter called him out for the PR claim. Enter, why did you think he's a PR?

[muh316]

Now look who is getting into WIFOM, why would I fake claim if im not in anyones top two? If I was scum and you and RCE/Munch are in everyones top two scum reads why wouldnt i just let them kill you? Oh wait its because im actually a tracker and I was asked to claim. You/munch/rce should have fake claimed, you would have had a better chance of pulling the wool over everyones eyes.

Now look who is getting into WIFOM.

[muh316]

Except it’s not, WIFOM is debating something we can’t know anything about, readlists are posted. We all know what everyone thought about me so examining it isn’t wifom, cute you think so though.

"If I was scum and you and RCE/Munch are in everyones top two scum reads why wouldnt i just let them kill you?"

"If this, then that" statements are WIFOM because they're dependent on uncertainty.

[muh316]

My largest suspect is Thespio because he's obviously lying. Possible scum partners for Thespio are Magik and Enter while leaning a lot more on scumMagik.

Magik because he believed the claim without question and is defending Thespio's claim and is pushing everyone else to believe him as well. I've been scumreading him since the beginning for trying to get townie points and scummy behavior in general. This fakeclaim solidifies my scum read on him.

Enter because he pushed Thespio to claim. I'm imagining the scum chat going something like Enter and Thespio planning out a strategy. The strategy could be that Enter first calls him out and then Thespio says, "alright you got me I'm a PR." This makes the claim more believable. At the end all they need is to convince one townie that Thespio is actually a PR. In this case Magik. This ends up putting town at a 3-3 deadlock and so a townie will probably cave in and lynch in favor of scum.

[muh316]

Everyone else had me middle of the road, as scum does a claim benifit me if it guarantees I’m on the chopping block? You recognize I wasn’t under a ton of pressure, and yes I was kind of shocked my Pr had been called, so I claimed, I didn’t immediately claim. Also It was all I had when I claimed seeing as I got a NR N1.

Don't you think you would be A LOT more valuable if you had a result from N2 AND N3? Your claim makes zero sense and you should feel bad for fakeclaiming this early.

[muh316]

Muh how comfortable do you feel as scum and how comfortable do you feel as town?

Could you clarify this? Are you talking about my meta?

[muh316]

Muh how comfortable do you feel as scum and how comfortable do you feel as town?

Could you clarify this? Are you talking about my meta?

You get a role pm for a new game.

What are your immediate thoughts/feelings when you see the text is red?
What about green?

When I see red it's usually a mix of excitement and nervousness. I'm excited because the role is a lot more fun to play . I'm nervous because it's harder to play scum because you know who's town/scum and have to lie and fake your actions. In this setup I do a lot of overthinking and re-read my posts over and over again before I hit submit.

When I see green it's a neutral reaction. I'm more carefree because I know I'm green and I shouldn't be lynched.

[muh316]

Muh we ml here and we lose, a prominent townie read asked for a claim, I asked if they were sure before because they are smart enough to know I will die, why do you think I would have only made it to N3? How do you know when scum would have killed me?

I'll write this in caps just so you understand because I've repeated myself so many times already.

I WAS ALREADY ON MY WAY TO BEING LYNCHED. I was going to be lynched D2 if it wasn't for the goof at the end of the day. I was also set up for a D3 lynch. If we were on our way to lynching somebody besides me, then the claim makes complete sense because its MYLO. But in this case I WAS ALREADY ON MY WAY TO BEING LYNCHED THE PERSON THAT YOU "SCUM CONFIRMED" SO THERE IS NO REASON TO POP OUT AND SAY "HEY THIS GUY IS SCUM CONFIRMED" WHEN TOWN IS ALREADY TRYING TO LYNCH HIM.

Let's say you aren't lying and you are the tracker and I'm confirmed scum.
It doesn't matter if a tracker makes it through N3 or not when their ONLY confirmed scum is already being lynched. Your results don't matter at that point since you only had ONE confirmed read and an action is being taken on that ONE read. If the tracker does make it through N3 they are extremely valuable on D4. Therefore, it would be in the town's best interest for that tracker to remain hidden. Given that you have 3+ years on this site you should know this.

[muh316]

Muh/munch are my top two, munch so you know I’m following you tonight, so you had better kill me tonight.

This just sounds fake

[muh316]

Now on Day 3 he has a claimed guilty on him, and even ignoring that is causing chaos all over the place by riling up Thespio (who keeps responding for who knows what reason? An urge to not let him get away with it?) while chasing after a Thespio/Magik scumteam which is essentially impossible since that team could easily have ended the game early Day 3 via an arranged quickhammer (and the same thing applies to Thespio/RCE).

If he's getting riled up it's because he's trying so hard to defend his lies. If he was actually confident in his claim he wouldn't be doing what he is doing now. I am also very frustrated with his fakeclaim which is why I'm causing this chaos.


As for the second part, you can't really make that claim and here's why.

I'm going to be using CST times here.

9:34 PM - 1288 RCE votes "much."
9:55 PM - 1290 Magik asks RCE to clarify his vote. At this point it would be far too risky for a Magik/Thespio team to quickhammer because they don't know if that's Muh or Munch.
10:14 PM - 1295 RCE votes muh
10:24 PM - 1296 Enter unvotes

The only time the scum team of Magik/Thespio could have hammered was inside that small 10 minute window. So it's entirely possible that both of you couldn't coordinate a quickhammer within that timeframe. That quickhammer argument of yours is invalid.

[muh316]

We were both on though, as you can see by the posts, so not really

No you weren't.

[muh316]

I do know this, but a MYLO in a newbie game is the same thing as the last 2 minutes of the 4th quarter in Football, people tend to get in their own heads and flop. It took me years to get used to MYLO/LYLO and having a tracker claim that saves town from an early loss is not a bad deal.

I don't think the newbies in this game are dummies.

[muh316]

Scum wants chaos and confusion. Town wants to sort things out. You are not doing the latter here, and Enter has had to repeatedly try to cut off discussion between you two so he can get through the former which you've been promoting.

And you put the entire blame on me for that? Please take a look at your scum partner as well. Oh wait, you won't because you're his partner.

There's still a window to quickhammer while both of us were on, as small as it may be. Alternatively, I don't vote at all until the quickhammer is set up for the lynch to avoid scaring Enter off and avoid drawing concern to it. Either way proves a similar point that this is unlikely at best and impossible at worst.

Thespio was NOT on during that 10 minute window between the RCE vote and Enter's unvote. Therefore you couldn't have possibly set up the quickhammer. It's impossible to coordinate a quickhammer in a game like this in such a short time frame.

As for your vote, that still doesn't disprove your alignment with Thespio.

[muh316]

Good game

[muh316]

Great game guys! This one was pretty much in scum's hands when the attention shifted off of RCE. That subtleties in his D3 play were great. I was going to open D4 with a Magik vote if we ended up lynching Thespio.

This was probably one of the most entertaining newbie games I've played in recent memory. Also, I apologize if I was throwing shade or being aggressive when things got heated.

[muh316]

@Pvt So was your replacement genuine or an attempt to reset your slot? I've seen it used as a strategy before so I'm just curious.

Real talk, 1382 was SOLID.

Thanks!