Mini Normal 2098 - Game Over! (Mafia Won)

[Billy Pilgrim]

Hi

Special hi to Billy Pilgrim, supporter of the best football team in Europe

Hi to you as well. And if you're a Liverpool supporter I'm down to make a Red block. It's like a town block but cooler because it's with Liverpool.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Like I know you were playing with Garmr

But you said in post 15 "you will have to be lynched

for that

"

That infers a reason for the vote
Might be a silly fun reason but it wasnt random

Is it your position that votes during RVS should be completely random? I feel like him giving a reason for the vote was better than switching it with no discussion.

If so:
1)how would we ever move out of RVS short of setting a deadline; and
2) what information would you hope to glean from truly random votes?

Not a fan of Norweigenboy's defensive tone, and definitely not a fan that he unvoted when getting pressure for voting.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Forgot to add
@mod I will be V/LA until Monday night my time. I will try and drop in at least once a day, but my posting will pick up starting Monday night.

Noted. -Mod

[Billy Pilgrim]

Not a fan of Norweigenboy's defensive tone, and definitely not a fan that he unvoted when getting pressure for voting.

Not a fan of this. I dislike how you are obviously not feeling good about Norwegianboy yet you are hesitant to increase the pressure on him with not voting him?

VOTE: Billy

Fair enough. I wait a bit before casting a vote. I get why you read this as off, but it's where I'm at now with how I want to play D1.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Not a fan of Norweigenboy's defensive tone, and definitely not a fan that he unvoted when getting pressure for voting.

Not a fan of this. I dislike how you are obviously not feeling good about Norwegianboy yet you are hesitant to increase the pressure on him with not voting him?

VOTE: Billy

Also, the defensive tone is a weak tell. The unvote's a bit stronger, but his sorting of profii felt genuine. There was that weird shading in the middle of 42, but he came around with decent reason at the end with reading the intention.

[Billy Pilgrim]

VOTE: Kraeg for now.

I agree fellow animated avatar. He gave me the same icky feeling.

So he's getting scumread by two people because he came in trying to sort? I don't know that I agree with Kraeg's reasoning, but points for trying.

[Billy Pilgrim]

VOTE: Kraeg for now.

I agree fellow animated avatar. He gave me the same icky feeling.

So he's getting scumread by two people because he came in trying to sort? I don't know that I agree with Kraeg's reasoning, but points for trying.

3 pilgrim

I just iso'd you to check and make sure I didn't mess up, this is the first time you were saying you were scum reading him right, because I didn't see it before this post? And if you're scumreading him over his tone, is there a reason your vote is still on skellen?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Wait are you SRing Kraeg or Skellen or both?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Game is already out of RVS after a few posts 'cause of Norwegian.

Also, I'm getting a bad feeling about Billy's V/LA. I've been a player of this game for like years already and I've seen mafia abuse the V/LA as an excuse to avoid everyone. I'm not a big fan of people going on V/LAs.

I'm on vacation at the beach. I still drop in and you shade me for going V/LA? I'm posting enough that I'm not even in prod range. Seriously, what's your deal? You came in hyper aggro and site meta isn't really to take issue with V/LA. Also, it's a two week day 1 and I'm out for like 4 days and I'll be back for the last 10. As off putting as this play is, I can't see scum motivation for it. It's weird, definitely, but I don't think it's scum.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Mohab, Norwegian, and Emperor - what's the scum motivation in calling out the V/LAs? And does that change your read of his generally aggro behavior on coming into the forum?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Game is already out of RVS after a few posts 'cause of Norwegian.

Also, I'm getting a bad feeling about Billy's V/LA. I've been a player of this game for like years already and I've seen mafia abuse the V/LA as an excuse to avoid everyone. I'm not a big fan of people going on V/LAs.

Are you trying to pull some sort of slayers gambit? You look surface level scummy but when I think of a reason why scum would be saying what you say I can't find one. The logic is bad.

I like Garmr's post. Alot.

@Norwegian, what I guess I meant was, what's the scum motivation in his posting style?

[Billy Pilgrim]

VOTE: skellen

This is odd.

I don't see what's so odd about it? I mean flippy gave you already kind of the obvious answer (mainly his 2.). The only thing he could have commented on was the beginning of the Garmr/Norwegianboy interaction. I understand you are scumreading the latter also for his opening, so if voting elsewhere is odd wouldn't it be more interesting to get to know why flippy decided to not comment/vote there?

Also I am a she.

I think my 3 is the most important tbh

I know your town game is pretty light/jokey but I feel like this is a bit much even for you. I mean this is you tripling down on Skellen not saying hi to you as the reason for your vote. I'm doing your iso from memory, but the only other thing is you thirding the scumlean/read on Kraeg for the awkward opening. I don't feel like this is you sorting. And you're definitely less active than last game.

VOTE: EmperorVOTE:

[Billy Pilgrim]

VOTE: Emperor

[Billy Pilgrim]

Townreading Garmr
Lean on profii
Null - emperor (those last posts felt more like the other emperor)
Scum lean Norwegian

Null because I need more posts - Skellen, Kraeg, Mohab, Luca

UNVOTE: Emperor
Are those lights better?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I was tempted to scum read Luca for his catch up posts and the fact that he flipped on Skellen within about 5 minutes of saying he agreed with her and asking questions of me identical to the concerns she raised before voting. But that's too obvious. Scum is usually more self aware than that. So I'm in a weird way giving that light town points.

Mohab is concerning me. She voted Kraeg based on his opening. Then she re-emphasizes her vote at 80 because "calling people out for V/LAs is a bit of a rushed reason to try and find a scumread/lean for anyone." Except, Kraeg didn't use that as a basis to scumread anyone. He shaded people, but again, I think the way he's doing this is drawing way too much attention for it to be scum motivated. I think he's an easy mis-lynch target and I think that Mohab may have been trying to get in early.

VOTE: Mohab

[Billy Pilgrim]

Scum lean Norwegian

Talk to me about this. I interpreted #46 that you kind of have kind come around Norwegianboy yet he still seems to be your scumlean? Is it because you (seem to) disagree with him about Kraeg?

Nah, I can still townread people I disagree with on reads. But here's what I see with Norwegian:

- 19 21 and 27 defensive tone overall on profii and Garmr's questions regarding the RVS votes.

-- 31 is an unvote when getting pressured for the vote. That coupled with the explanation that they were only going along with RVS to follow the culture exacerbates my concern there.

34 is neutral wouldn't expect anyone to have reads at that point, and think this was a valid response to Profii's post there.

37 minor negative because it's more about fitting in.

++42 this is a strong positive. I like that he's reading the game and trying to see Profii's intent with the push. The shading in the middle is still weird but overall this is a strong town post.

49 shades Kraeg a bit.

--65 he's now the second to vote Kraeg. He's explained that he's going to be cautious about his vote. Now I'd like some clarification in terms of how scummy someone needs to be before you vote, and whether a vote means you'd be comfortable with a lynch (reading back through his meta, I

really

want this question answered, but this is at best a really bizarre reason to vote here. Voting someone because they claimed you put them out of RVS just seems off. It really seems off from someone that doesn't claim to care about RVS.

67 is mixed. I like that he pointed out that Kraeg sorta sheeped onto someone else's logic. Reading back through the game that jumped out at me too.

Then we got nothing for a while. I don't know that Norwegian is sorting so much as looking for people he can scum read.

So yes Skellen. I liked 42. But there's enough questions and concerns in the iso to not offset it.

I'm townreading Skellen, and I'm leaning Kraeg a bit scum.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Overall I am feeling uncomfortable with Garmr here. Their tone feels a little like scum that's been caught or something of the sort?

I have a slight town lean on Skellen after the recent posts, nothing really strikes me as scummy in the way they caught up, I don't really sense any hidden motives or anything of the sort in the way they present themselves.

I still have my suspicions about the rest, but I feel like Garmer is a stronger lean here.

VOTE: GarmrVOTE: [v/]

How do you feel about Luca?

Is your read of Kraeg changed?

[Billy Pilgrim]

UNVOTE: Mohab

No need to be on a vanity wagon. Felt like turning up the pressure on the Kraeg wagon may help sort, but the Garmr/Luca 1v1 produced some interesting content. I will have some thoughts on this later.

When I skimmed it, Luca felt town. Wanna go back through the isos though.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Garmr - you say you read the flow of a game. At 68 how scum read did you think Kreag was gonna be?

[Billy Pilgrim]

UNVOTE: Billy

I feel like I have a better grip at reading him with having more insight on his reads and feel a bit better about him, although I feel a bit iffy about him not wanting to be on a "vanity wagon" on page 7 while Mohab hasn't even reacted to his questions yet. Guess that will remain as my most frustrating slot in my notes.

Regarding Garmr/Luca I need to look more closely at it when it's not late in the night, but my first impression after reading through it is that imo Garmr hit a nail with saying that Luca's reasons for scumreading him didn't felt natural. Although I am mostly thinking here of him feeling negative about Garmr's mention of PR stuff and the slayers gambit thing. To me it felt he judged Garmr for that as scum because it doesn't look natural from town yet he didn't really pointed out why that is a scum motivated play. It's imo just bad play, maybe anti-town might be the better term, as both also admitted to (more or less). I mean if it's scum!Garmr I don't see why he brings up arguments that would potentially put the Kraeg push to a halt instead of just keeping it to himself and joining pushing Kraeg. Can you clarify this, Luca? Second paragraph in #134 does seem to be the only thing that comes close to it, but it doesn't really feel comprehensible.

Oh don't worry, I still want those questions answered by Mohab, but clearly my vote wasn't doing anything there and I unvoted because I wanted to deep dive the Garmr/Luca interaction.

And if you're frustrated by my slot, you're not alone. I made 2 out of 4 LYLOs in my first 4 games. And it's probably because scum recognizes that I do weird things that can get scum read.

As for the Garmr/Luca interaction, I feel weird. I think Luca's initial reason for voting Garmr was weak, but I feel like the way the interaction played out made Luca look good and Garmr look bad. I also played a game (unsure of Luca's alignment in that game so not AI) where he did a 1v1 then backed off similarly on D1. Maybe he rolled scum in both games, but it also could be a playstyle thing.

I also realized that most of why I was townreading Garmr was his defense of a surface level scummy Kraeg. Now I think this is the only read of his that didn't feel surface level, and when I re-read it I realized he didn't commit to a read. In 98, he said he would set it to the side and come back to it. Then he did the 1 on 1 with Luca. I originally couldn't see scum motivation in coming out the gate defending Kraeg for surface level scummy play. But now I can think of 2 reasons, (I will give them later Skellen), but for now, I would like to hold them back a bit. I agree with Luca that most of Garmr's reads were surface level as I said, outside of Kraeg. I also think that Garmr got mad defensive when he was getting pressured by Luca and that was remarkably different from how he had reacted to Norwegian's early vote.

VOTE: Garmr

[Billy Pilgrim]

Billy, you can’t talk about ongoing games. This is a really important thing to remember.

Traveling home atm so will respond to stuff in an hour or two

I thought i kept this vague enough that I didn't violate the rule. And I specifically said it wasn't ai so it wouldn't spoil. Shit, if I messed this up I'm sorry.

Whoops that was from my Hydra. Wow I'm really messing up.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Garmr - it's probably fair to say I parroted Luca there. I think your Kraeg comment showed you working through it. The Skellen read was surface mostly, but it was null so I guess that's not gonna be in depth. The Luca read wasn't surface, I think the logic was off, but it wasn't surface. So that's a fair defense from you, you brought up 4 reads (Kraeg, Skellen, Emperor, and Luca.). 2 were in depth and 2 were a bit more surface but the surface ones were nulls.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I messed up here, clearly, and it's why I admitted it in 160. I thought I had more reasons when I posted, but I read it back and I clearly didn't. I agree that there's a reason your surface reads would be nulls and you accurately grouped them.

I agree that that's not fair to paint someone as only having surface level reads in such a case. And would I find the person painting them in that light as scummy? I don't know. As for why I echoed it, I think it's probably because I was persuaded by him in 139 because I think you missed the point he was trying to make and he mentioned again that you had surface level reads. I think I got primed to see them that way. I definitely have this problem with people I town-read, and I need to fight it better, because I'm easily pocketable.

I think you misinterpreted his point but I don't think that makes you scum. I am interested in why you went after me and Luca so hard and left Mohab alone. I'm also now interested in Flippy, because he sheeped onto Luca pretty easily.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I'm townreading Garmr, but I'm not sure that means that Luca's scum.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Billy I was going to lead into this in a more natural way because I predicted you to do something different, but you surprised me in a good way so I'll ask your thoughts about this to try and

Catching-up....(striked the stuff that has been answered/is no longer relevant)

27 -

I'm struggling to follow why this is scummy?

31 -

Do you still find Profii scummy, or did his response cause you to reconsider?

35 -

Do you consider these to be AI questions? If you're 'not a fan' of Norwegianboy, why not place a vote on him yourself here?

Skellen's opening seems decent, and her thoughts in 41 mirror my own.

42 - This seems fair enough. Early town-lean on Norwegianboy.

46 - Decent thought-process from Billy, early town-lean here as well.

56 - I can relate to this. Posting a naked RVS vote as scum is actually quite a ballsy thing to do.

63, 64 - This is just BS, shading people based on V/LA's right at the start of the game and during a weekend. Billy has even been contributing despite his V/LA, and I had just announced I would catch up Tomorrow, which I am fulfilling now.

65, 66, 67 - This feels Townie.

I found this post hollow and some what text book response. Do you see the same thing as me or is there substance I missed somewhere?

I think it was a catch-up post. At that point there was about 2 and a half pages of content and all of it was light. The only conflict at that point was a hyper aggro Kraeg and Norwegian with Mohab also voting Kraeg. Was that catch-up post safe? Maybe, but I don't know what else you would have expected there.

Also not sure why you're highlighting this. If anything the quick flip on Skellen is more interesting, but given that the content was there at this point, he could have put that in the catch-up post, so I don't know why scum!Luca would have brought attention to himself like that.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Norwegian - why are you still stuck on Kraeg? Please show your work for 173 and 179. 191 may be an attempt at a joke, but it's bad. And if you didn't want people to follow your vote onto Kraeg, then did you think your line vote is going to accomplish your goal of pressuring him? How's that working for you so far?

Reading back through the Garmr/Luca exchange I remember what pinged me. It was the overconfidence from Garmr. I hate that, but it's so damn common on this site, I need to adjust my expectations and stop assuming it's skummy, but I'd appreciate it if you could tone it down a bit, because it's hard to take that seriously.

I also think that Garmr's expectations are a bit off. I think he's expecting solid cases, when I don't think we're all that far out of LIVS. Do you not vote people until you have a lockread on them Garmr? Because that's the impression you're giving off in 170.

@Kraeg - I agree that scum would be looking for PRs, but why wouldn't they put that discussion in the PT? What motivation do they have to have that conversation in the open thread? Confident with a Garmr lynch? It's page fucking 8! And your reason is discussing town PRs. Dude what game are you playing here? Honestly I need help understanding your play, because if you're town, I have a strong feeling you survive until LYLO as a mis-lynch option.

@profii +1 for 190. I think I'm gonna re-up the offer for a Reds Block. Come on, we can powerlynch City supporters.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I also meant to do this last page. UNVOTE: Garmr

[Billy Pilgrim]

I think I wanna voodoo vote Emperor here. Can I conjure him into existence? Need more content from that slot. Can you weigh in on Luca/Garmr? Kraeg you got anything to say about it other than the PR comments?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I think you guys will just have to learn to deal with the way i am. Most of my posts are reactive and i usually only point out things that stick out to me. I read everything people say here but i can't be bothered to add my comments to absolutely everything. If you guys think that's scummy then by all means lynch me. If i get mislynched as town in like 5 games maybe people will begin to understand that this is just my personality and it is usually not alignment indicative.

I want you to think about this post. You're basically recognizing that you're playing in a way that the group perceives as bad because you keep getting lynched. Yet your response to that is for the group to change it's perception of you. Why should we? If you keep playing badly, you're either scum or bad town. Why would we want you in LYLO? You're a potential liability there. So if you keep playing badly, the solution from a town perspective is to policy lynch you. That means we Lynch you D1. And we do that because we know it's bad to have you in late game situations. So while you think the site will just have to adjust to you, you may not like the way it adjusts to you. Please stop playing so reactively and start reading. I saw your reads list, care to develop that at all?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I think you guys will just have to learn to deal with the way i am. Most of my posts are reactive and i usually only point out things that stick out to me. I read everything people say here but i can't be bothered to add my comments to absolutely everything. If you guys think that's scummy then by all means lynch me. If i get mislynched as town in like 5 games maybe people will begin to understand that this is just my personality and it is usually not alignment indicative.

I want you to think about this post. You're basically recognizing that you're playing in a way that the group perceives as bad because you keep getting lynched. Yet your response to that is for the group to change it's perception of you. Why should we? If you keep playing badly, you're either scum or bad town. Why would we want you in LYLO? You're a potential liability there. So if you keep playing badly, the solution from a town perspective is to policy lynch you. That means we Lynch you D1. And we do that because we know it's bad to have you in late game situations. So while you think the site will just have to adjust to you, you may not like the way it adjusts to you. Please stop playing so reactively and start reading. I saw your reads list, care to develop that at all?

I think we are some way off even considering policy lynching players - we cant give up on scum hunting that easily

I definitely didn't mean to suggest that we do that today in this game. I read my message back and I realize it could have come off that way. I was mainly referring to his resigned attitude here that he would just keep playing this way into the future. So to clarify, I think you should try and play better and try and get reads off those dense posts. And no we shouldn't policy lynch him today.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I definitely didn't mean to suggest that we do that today in this game. I read my message back and I realize it could have come off that way. I was mainly referring to his resigned attitude here that he would just keep playing this way into the future. So to clarify, I think you should try and play better and try and get reads off those dense posts.

And no we shouldn't policy lynch him today.

But in the future is ok?
My reads are mainly based on tone and emotions of the people i'm analyzing. If i see two people making huge blocks of text i'm thinking. "What mindset are these two people in right now? They are both very worked up and convinced that the other is scum... ergo= Both are most likely town"
See? No fifty paragraph line by line essay necessary.
I really don't have anything more to say about the 1v1 between Gramr and Luca. So the fact that you called me out for my "resigned attitude" honestly surprised and perplexed me.

See I liked this post. I think the logic is wrong, but you explained a read. Thank you. Was it that hard?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I'm interested in pressuring Mohab and Emperor at the moment. Emperor's slot is a bit worse atm so
VOTE: Emperor

[Billy Pilgrim]

Let's see if seeing his name in lights brings him back.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Norwegian, I know you're new here. Have you read any of the articles on the wiki for strategies on how to play?

[Billy Pilgrim]

VOTE: Billy Pilgrim

Man I really wanted a Reds block and now you want to kill me? Sad.

Can you walk me through your progression? Because I reread your iso and I couldn't see how you got here. It didn't help that the vote didn't have anything explaining it.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I'll caveat this with it is arguably pre-flip associatives and as much as people tend not to like them, i dont have a problem with them as much as usual

When I read through your iso, you go from kinda indirectly defending Kraeg, to then saying he is null (which on it's own was a surprise) then there was a point you said you wanted to vote him, just for inactivity, which, firstly I've gone over my issues with policy voting and secondly, this was someone you were earlier saying was trying to sort the game so, not really prime candidate for a PL, given the numerous inactive players.

Admittedly, you didn't vote him - however, because I've got this pre-flip narrative in my brain my brain was saying well you dont want to vote your pal.

I can get the quotes etc if you really want but I'll just leave it at that for now.

Kinda just wondered how you'd react to a naked vote.

Ooh cool, a misrep. Now to figure out why you made it. Where did I say I wanted to vote Kraeg for inactivity? I remember saying I wanted to vote Emperor for inactivity to conjure him into existence, but don't remember saying it about Kraeg. Can you find that for me? And if so, why'd you mess that up?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Also, theory question what value do pre-flip associatives have if you don't have the flip? Although I guess I like the thought because that is part of what I was referring to when I said there were two reasons I could see scum!Garmr taking the air out of the Kraeg wagon. But I had a second reason which is why I asked Garmr the question about how many people he thought were gonna scumread Kraeg when he took the air out of that wagon.

To be honest, it's still early but Kraeg is still in my D1 Lynch pool. At the moment, I think it's him, Mohab, and Emperor. Skellen Garmr and you are out at the moment. Norwegian and Luca are sort of in a territory where I may be able to be talked into them.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Kinda just wondered how you'd react to a naked vote.

Kinda figured this. Did you get anything?

I haven't been able to get anything out of reaction tests. I think they're too easy to fake. Similarly I don't put much weight in slips. But if you got something great.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@mod - Flippy looks to be in prod range. Maybe if I can't conjure him, you can poke him back?

[Billy Pilgrim]

UNVOTE: Mohab

No need to be on a vanity wagon. Felt like turning up the pressure on the Kraeg wagon may help sort, but the Garmr/Luca 1v1 produced some interesting content.

I will have some thoughts on this later.

When I skimmed it, Luca felt town. Wanna go back through the isos though.

I read the bold bit as "No need to [leave my vote on Mohab, as it is] a vanity wagon. Felt like turning up the pressure on the Kraeg wagon may help sort [that inactive slot], but the Garmr/Luca 1v1 produced some interesting content [so can convieniently vote 1 of those 2 {Garmr} as I know they are both town players, meaning I dont have to get stuck on scum wagon]


I am aware this is very pre-flippy kraeg/billy scum team.

I also note your distinct change in buddying tone from red block to oh you are mis repping me. I dont think I am. Based on the following:

50: So he's [kraeg] getting scumread by two people because he came in trying to sort? I don't know that I agree with Kraeg's reasoning, but points for trying. - this is you querying someone attacking Kraeg, white knighting, if you will

62 making sure someone is/isnt scum reading kraeg

70 i felt like because kraeg comes in and makes a point about your VLA, even though, as i mentioned at the time, you were actually posting (and have been doing so a lot more than he has) it was a good cop/bad cop act - i mean, we can vote kraeg together at this point if you want?

71 again querying people who have an issue with the vla point, again white knighting if you will

73 giving kudos to garmrs "slayers gambit" theory - i.e. acknowledging there is something scummy about him, despite never having expressed this yourself, whilst also giving momentum to a theory from Garmr that Kraeg isnt actually scum.

I am guessing you are going to say I've got that all wrong, because despite what I am reading as white knighting, you said Kraeg is null/need more info in 92 ? I just find it a weird progression on your part...

ok so 109 does offer some motivation for that. You call it shading and your exception to the vla stuff is consistent with 71


and ok I'm bored of getting all the post numbers and linking them back but here is the crux of the issue:

there is an element of a white knight vibe coming across as i've highlighted above
there is also a consistent explaination that you acknowledge the surface level scummy-ness of Kraeg and are probing the voters to see who goes where

given those voters have dissapeared I think it's probable i am off the mark and you are actually sorting so I'll unvote

UNVOTE:

I'll even try and summon EFN with you

VOTE: emporer flippy nips

Ok fair, your comment on my position on Kraeg wasn't a misrep. I feel like at that moment I had Kraeg a shade toward the scum side, which became a bit more of a lean after how he interacted with the Luca/Garmr 1v1, but I don't think this was an intentional misrep and may not have even been a misrep since I didn't exactly say that out loud.

Hey, you finally mentioned my offer for a Reds block.

Honestly, I was confused by this post. It seemed really stream of consciousy. I feel like scum wouldn't risk doing that.

I agree that you can attempt to spot team work pre-flip, but in that case would you want to Lynch the one who you thought was the teammate or the one who you thought was scummy first?

239 - Skellen is clear of my lunch pool because I think she's town.

[Billy Pilgrim]

VOTE COUNT 1.6

Emperor FlippyNips (1) - Billy Pilgrim

Day 1 deadline is Friday, September 13th at 10:00 am PDT which is in

(expired on 2019-09-13 10:00:00)

billy what's this thing we're doing? I get busy you vote me, I jump back in you don't vote. & here we are, you voting me again

If you stick around this time I won't have to try and vote summon you. I just missed you. You bring the gifs.

[Billy Pilgrim]

yah & I have other games where im the most active player & die d1 too soooooooooo

This is the one that I've had experience with.

[Billy Pilgrim]

What happened to Garmr?

Here's where I'm at. We're in a pretty low activity game state. This works real well for scum because it breeds apathy. It also doesn't help town sort much. I'm kinda lost. Kraeg came in hyper aggro. I don't read that as scummy but others were. I think what I found a lack of effort on reads from that slot was a problem.

@Norwegian - why is Kraeg scum. Is it just that he accused you of taking us out of RVS? And if that's why, why is that enough?

I don't have a strong candidate at the moment, but I think Mohab is my preference. Sheeped the Kraeg wagon. Then hopped onto Garmr saying it felt like caught scum. Then just left and went back to Kraeg. I feel like that's the worst vote all game so far so thats where I wanna be.

VOTE: Mohab

[Billy Pilgrim]

What happened to Garmr?

Here's where I'm at. We're in a pretty low activity game state. This works real well for scum because it breeds apathy. It also doesn't help town sort much. I'm kinda lost. Kraeg came in hyper aggro. I don't read that as scummy but others were. I think what I found a lack of effort on reads from that slot was a problem.

@Norwegian - why is Kraeg scum. Is it just that he accused you of taking us out of RVS? And if that's why, why is that enough?

I don't have a strong candidate at the moment, but I think Mohab is my preference. Sheeped the Kraeg wagon. Then hopped onto Garmr saying it felt like caught scum. Then just left and went back to Kraeg. I feel like that's the worst vote all game so far so thats where I wanna be.

VOTE: Mohab

This post makes me feel like Billy is even more town. I disagree with his opinion on kreag but it's not what scum buddies do for each other and if billy was scum and kreag town he wouldn't want to diffuse the kreag wagon this way.

I just reread my post and I don't think I communicated what I meant, my phone's been acting up. I meant I find the slot kind of scummy because I saw a lack of effort at making reads. Don't know if that changes your opinion.

Also, I see a scum list from him since I made that post so that's positive I guess.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I like Profii's and Skellen's votes in the Kraeg wagon. As I had said, I'm not a fan of Mohab's vote there. I also feel a bit weird about how focused Norwegian and Kraeg have been on each other. I don't want them both in a LYLO situation at all. I also don't see Kraeg working to sort the game so he's in my lynch pool just not my preference at the moment. I don't feel a need to give intent at the moment, because we still have time, but I'm interested to see how he responds to being at L-1.

Kraeg, it's possible that you don't make it to D2, so your last response isn't all that helpful. A few questions: 1) Why are you town? 2) Who are your town reads, and who are your scum reads? 3) What do you think about this wagon?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I find it weird people are trying to link other kreag as scum before the flip. I intend to hammer but I'm waiting for a bit more Emperor posts and a roleclaim.

What made you down with killing Kraeg? Did your read change and I missed it?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Kraeg, you're at L-1. Someone who isn't on your wagon at the moment gave intent already when you were at L-1. You've seemed pretty uncommitted to the game. You planning on defending yourself, or have you given up?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Hold on.

Give me time to think if I will roleclaim. Whatever happens, the wagon on me gives everyone a clue. At least one of the players in the wagon will definitely flip scum. I think I'm becoming an easy lynch for the scum. I was thinking that some people are just putting pressure on me. I didn't expect people would be serious.

Don't claim yet. No one has yet given intent unless Flippy wants to give it again. Profii had unvoted in between the last time he claimed it. I was hoping you were going to answer my questions from earlier before someone gave intent, because I think those questions may be more helpful than a roleclaim in sorting you.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Kraeg, you're at L-1. Someone who isn't on your wagon at the moment gave intent already when you were at L-1. You've seemed pretty uncommitted to the game. You planning on defending yourself, or have you given up?

This is important actually

We have 4 on wagon. Flippy and myself were (are?) Still willing to vote once we thrash it out

That is 6/9 - what does this mean? Few scenarios:

1. Scum team is within {Kraeg / Luca / Billy} as all other players have recently been on the wagon (I haven't checked the 2 ISOs for scum reads on Kraeg either so there is that)

2. As per Billy post, Kraeg has literally given up and scum are either already bussing or showing an intent to bus (if it's me or flippy for sake of thoroughness)

3. We are wrong and kraeg town


I'm leaning towards 2 but 3 keeps pinging in my mind because when you are lynching scum obviously scum resist and with so many people circling above Kraeg I wonder if we are straying from 2 to 3

Why does it have to be true that he's given up if scum are bussing? I mean I agree with the theory that you don't want to bus unless you absolutely have to, but I know that's not the only position.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I know this is WIFOM so you can put no weight on it if you want, but if I was Kraeg's partner I probably would have bussed early and then used it to build cred. And now I know that in saying this it decreases the likelihood that someone would do something. Btw, this is why I asked Garmr how many people he thought were gonna scumread Kraeg. I felt like if he thought a bunch of people were gonna scumread him then he may have been hard defending him for the post-flip credibility.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Kraeg, you're at L-1. Someone who isn't on your wagon at the moment gave intent already when you were at L-1. You've seemed pretty uncommitted to the game. You planning on defending yourself, or have you given up?

This is important actually

We have 4 on wagon. Flippy and myself were (are?) Still willing to vote once we thrash it out

That is 6/9 - what does this mean? Few scenarios:

1. Scum team is within {Kraeg / Luca / Billy} as all other players have recently been on the wagon (I haven't checked the 2 ISOs for scum reads on Kraeg either so there is that)

2. As per Billy post, Kraeg has literally given up and scum are either already bussing or showing an intent to bus (if it's me or flippy for sake of thoroughness)

3. We are wrong and kraeg town


I'm leaning towards 2 but 3 keeps pinging in my mind because when you are lynching scum obviously scum resist and with so many people circling above Kraeg I wonder if we are straying from 2 to 3

What’s making you think that billy could be scum?

No I'm just saying there is a lot of people wanting to lynch kraeg so thinking that through you are unlikely to have 6 players with a perfect scum read on day 1 so there is actually more likely to be a busser than scum!billy

But also you have to just factor in it's possible 6 people are wrong, given 2 might be wrong on purpose

I think that given how easy this scum read was, I mean there was a brief foray into Luca/Garmr, but this has really been most people's early read, I'd be shocked if scum isn't on this wagon if he's scum. If he flips town, then idk. Maybe scum would want to be away from it to hide, or maybe scum would want to be ok it to ensure the mis-lynch. Speed-wise this wagon feels about right now, but Mohab's and Norwegian were on fast at the beginning.

Kraeg, could you at least attempt to defend yourself? If I don't see anything from you in 24 hours Im probably gonna give intent (or at least put you back to L-1 if you're not there. Because I think at that point you've been at L-1 or close for close to 48 hours.

[Billy Pilgrim]

If I get to L-1 again, I'll roleclaim.

I reread the votes on me. Most of it are just based on gut feelings and on how I voted Norwegian after RVS. I don't think I deserve to get lynched because of that. I think I'm becoming an easy lynch. I wouldn't be surprised if two of the scum is on my wagon.

I'm going to go ahead and VOTE: Mohab500.

I don't think he's genuine. He's been sheeping everyone.

Well I now think a Kraeg flip would help me sort Mohab's slot better.

Mohab, you have been kinda sheepy. Can you do a better job explaining your Garmr scum read as well as your Kraeg vote?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Somehow i’m not feeling convinced yet.
VOTE: Kraeg

Man, your slot is infuriating to sort. You got anything to say about Mohab?

[Billy Pilgrim]

If I get to L-1 again, I'll roleclaim.

I reread the votes on me. Most of it are just based on gut feelings and on how I voted Norwegian after RVS. I don't think I deserve to get lynched because of that. I think I'm becoming an easy lynch. I wouldn't be surprised if two of the scum is on my wagon.

I'm going to go ahead and VOTE: Mohab500.

I don't think he's genuine. He's been sheeping everyone.

Kraeg, you wanna say anything that I didn't say already about 36 hours before you placed this vote? I don't like you sheeping my reasons.

[Billy Pilgrim]

If Kraeg town= Mohab sus
If Kraeg scum= Billy sus.

Either a town victory or good information on who’s scum. Win-win.

I dont like this post at all

Yeah, if he's scum he is setting up a mis-lynch for day 2. I mean I'm probably suspicious if Kraeg flips red, that much I get, but why is Mohab the only suspect in a green Kraeg flip?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I'm the

Town Roleblocker

.

I don't want this slot to die so I guess I really have to do this. I'm hoping that there's a doctor who will protect me at night. If ever I do get killed tonight, the wagon on me says a lot about who's scum here. I'm confident that the scum team is on my wagon and I will be roleblocking one of them tonight.

Ugh, I hate this claim.

Can you please explain why you were playing so strangely like all of D1? You came in guns blazing almost trying to draw attention to yourself. What's the point of that playstyle with your role?

Also, Garmr, is this the type of role you had in mind?

[Billy Pilgrim]

gonna UNVOTE: for now because I believe that's we're supposed to do?

I don't know whether to award this explicit invocation of what we're supposed to do town points or scum points, but it feels more like scum trying to avoid scrutiny for the unvote.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Mohab, assuming Kraeg is town and not fake claiming. Who do you think is the most suspicious? And do you have any specific townreads?

You pivoted almost immediately from Kraeg to Mohab. Why?

[Billy Pilgrim]

gonna UNVOTE: for now because I believe that's we're supposed to do?

I don't know whether to award this explicit invocation of what we're supposed to do town points or scum points, but it feels more like scum trying to avoid scrutiny for the unvote.

I dont like this post.

It comes over as someone who doesn't know what to do

I was going to say to Mohab something like:

It's up to you, you obviously wanted to vote Kraeg for a reason, so if you believe those reasons were right and this claim is false you dont ~have~ to unvote
But you better have a damn good reason for pushing it

and I dont think there is one given how little Kraeg is playing

Here's the thing about how I play, I'm up front with pretty much everything. When I'm unsure about something, that's clear. I usually get pings from people that are overconfident. It's what pinged me about Garmr in that 1v1.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I need to re-read everyone's isos. I'm not all that satisfied with Kraeg's defense. To say he didn't mean to be aggro at the start and that it was just an RVS thing sounds untrue. Your first aggro post was 63 where you shaded V/LA. I don't think your vote on Norwegian was aggro. I think it was a bad reason, but not aggro. I think your post 25 was not understanding site culture, but again not really aggro, but then 106 he explained his opening due to his serious style. But then 184, he wants to avoid talking about his rvs vote, and then he's already talking about how he's comfortable with a lynch less than 200 posts in. Then gone for 36 hours, then ends up in a 1on 1 with Norwegian. Then, despite someone telling him there was no need to claim until someone gave intent, and that he should try and defend himself, he outted that role.

I think that's a weird roleclaim. It's kinda weak. I hope that's not our only or, but if it is, it means scum doesn't have much power at all either. I don't know why that would be the claim you make if it's fake. I mean he kinda has to be the NK, because there's a 1/4 chance he hits scum with his role and may break up the NK that way (unless they have a roleblocker, then they can keep him alive for M-L bait). So I don't know why scum would fake claim that. If someone with more experience wants to explain it to me, I'm open. But I'm kinda inclined to believe it. I hate the timing, claiming something when there isn't intent, but I don't see why scum would fakeclaim that role at that time. I guess Garmr's theory makes sense but that seems about it.

[Billy Pilgrim]

If Kraeg town= Mohab sus
If Kraeg scum= Billy sus.

Either a town victory or good information on who’s scum. Win-win.

I dont like this post at all

Yeah, if he's scum he is setting up a mis-lynch for day 2. I mean I'm probably suspicious if Kraeg flips red, that much I get, but why is Mohab the only suspect in a green Kraeg flip?

Yeah it’s kinda incomplete, i just wrote that in a hurry because i wanted Kraeg to feel pressured into roleclaiming.

Why did you want him to feel pressured into a claim before he was at L-1 and intent had been given?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Mohab, assuming Kraeg is town and not fake claiming. Who do you think is the most suspicious? And do you have any specific townreads?

You pivoted almost immediately from Kraeg to Mohab. Why?

If Kraeg isn’t lying he’ll most likely get nightkilled anyway. So i think we should look for another target. If he doesn’t then he will seem more scummy as time goes on right?

Why were you so willing to believe that claim? I mean it was almost immediate. You didn't give us any of your thoughts on whether the claim was genuine. Why were you so quick to believe it?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Kraeg, you're at L-1. Someone who isn't on your wagon at the moment gave intent already when you were at L-1. You've seemed pretty uncommitted to the game. You planning on defending yourself, or have you given up?

This is important actually

We have 4 on wagon. Flippy and myself were (are?) Still willing to vote once we thrash it out

That is 6/9 - what does this mean? Few scenarios:

1. Scum team is within {Kraeg / Luca / Billy} as all other players have recently been on the wagon (I haven't checked the 2 ISOs for scum reads on Kraeg either so there is that)

2. As per Billy post, Kraeg has literally given up and scum are either already bussing or showing an intent to bus (if it's me or flippy for sake of thoroughness)

3. We are wrong and kraeg town


I'm leaning towards 2 but 3 keeps pinging in my mind because when you are lynching scum obviously scum resist and with so many people circling above Kraeg I wonder if we are straying from 2 to 3

I'm just going to revisit my theory here because I believe the claim as I already felt like too many people wanted that lynch.

That means we have a player list as follows:




Now I'm making the assumption I Kraeg is town, so I can remove him and myself from the analysis here on in:.

So i've split the remaining people into 2 camps:

No interest in voting:
3) Luca Blight
9) Billy Pilgrim

At some point interested in voting:
1) Mohab500
2) Skellen
4) Garmr
5) Emperor FlippyNips
7) NorwegianboyEE


so let's consider as the newbie game is 2v7, until we kill 2 scum and the game doesnt end, I'll assume we are too. So, would we expect to see 2 scum within a pile of 5 players trying to get Kraeg to go through? Given Kraeg wasn't oozing town, I dont think scum would feel the need to do so, therefore, let's consider the scum team being split across the 2 groups:

I went back to my 'stream of consciousness post' regarding Billy on Kraeg 237 - I initially thought that scum!billy was defending scum!kraeg but it turns out billy had communicated a certain scummyness about Kraeg so there is a risk that Billy is positioning himself somewhere where he could say Kraeg is town or scum and not draw a high level of scrutiny. This is a problem.

But let's compare that to Luca - looking through the ISO, Luca barely comments on Kraeg, addressing a specific read only once and says "feels naturally scummy to me" but there is little content here

If the cookie crumbled and we were voting off wagon, I'd be picking Billy because his content in respect to Kraeg already alarmed me but I dont think that this the sensible play today so I will park this analysis and look on wagon a bit more...



Garmr seems an interesting one to go first,
I immediately recall Garmr saying Kraeg might have been puling a slayers gambit, ergo inferring Kraeg was probably town. So the first thing I want to consider is why was he on this wagon in the first place? Let's look:
first thing that strikes me is very early in the game Garmr considered Kraeg may have a PR...
He then gets into it with Luca and I'll not drag that back up, defends himself against Billys vote...
Ultimately he 're reads flippy' then votes Kraeg to L-1 him again.
The latest read list was Luca!scum, kraeg!null-scum, EFN!null - so whilst I acknowledge that no one was going for luca and your vote has to go somewhere, I am not sure how the reread enables the Kraeg vote - it strikes me a little bit of L-1 to get the claim out which is obviously scummy...


Mohab next,
So there isn't much to go on but there I'm actually ok with this slot:
he picks up Garmr is scummy for the similar reasons i mentioned above so i like that.
i looked at some of mohabs previous play, i could find 1 scum game and his posting is distinctly more wall post-y compared to this/his past games so i am actually going to give him a meta tick in the town box there (only because there is so little to go on)
overall it's kinda what i'd expect from a relatively new player but the points above aren't making me vote here really...

Skellen,
i think in the majority of skellens posts there is clear thought on how to process each subject she is talking about, this is just oozing town and I'm too lazy to say much more as it seems a bit pointless given how obvious it is ha. So that's all you're getting right now.

EFN,
ok so EFN is crusing for the early parts of this game which is a worry
He also says he struggles to read Skellen when he usually can which is really at odds with what I just said so that is a problem for me.
He also puts Kraeg at L-1 with no real prior exception to the slot, this is a red flag
I really dont like the post where EFN says he just wants a kill 304

ok so that's a slot for vote consideration...

Finally, Norge,
he is consistently scum reading Kraeg all through the day, my issue with this is that Kraeg never really posted enough content to warrant such a 'grudge like' long term scum read (imo) so i could never understand it. I think Norge has shown he plays the game more 'off the cuff' and we'd never expect him to go back through iso/old games to find out more info so it's a bit what you see is what you get - he kinda summarises some of the other events in the game such as the 1v1 so it shows he is paying attention but i think he is just the type of person i never read well... If i advocated for his lynch it would be policy so I'd need other to convince me here...



so in conclusion, I think I need to make my mind up between Garmr and EFN and it is almost a coin toss tbh.

Gonna go for

VOTE: EFN

I don't know what your group of "no interest in voting group" meant. I did say that I'd either give intent or put him at L-1 if he didn't post a defense in 24 hours. So you can safely say that I was on the wagon. And it seems like you found at least one taker in Norwegian, so if you want to push me, I'm interested in reading the case.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I kinda want to believe Mohab is innocent based on gut feeling.
So that means i'd probably pick out either Billy Pilgrim or Emperor from the roster.
Not sure who i'd vote for yet.

Explain how you got from 348 to 368 to 372. Because presumably you sorted Kraeg as town from your response to the role claim. So why did Mohab go from being suspect to now inno?

In 380, I don't believe I've voted you once, so how was I trying to build a case off of your early actions?

Yes I know I pissed you off by saying that I didn't want you in LYLO, and I honestly hope you considered why. This is a team game. Your nonchalance about being consistently misread when town is anti-town. I don't know if you've made a LYLO yet, but they're fucking hard. I've made 2. I won one and lost the other. And the one I lost was because I misread the slot. So yeah, if we get to LYLO, I'm worried that Im likely to make a mistake reading your slot. I also think half your reads are based on how you are emotionally reacting to a given player and that's not a good proxy for someone being scum. I think your case against me is a good example of that, because I pissed you off with my post. And again, I didn't vote you. So I wasn't trying to Lynch you.

I don't understand your argument about my Kraeg progression. And I don't understand why you bolded my comment about Mohab. I felt like that was pretty obvious. As Kraeg is at L-1 he voted Mohab. That's a very important interaction so yes, his flip would help sort Mohab.

Also, my question about the quick pivot was more directed to why you didn't first analyze the claim. You aggressively pushed him to claim, then you just went on with a new focus. I don't know why you didn't even try to sort the claim first.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Sucks that our pr just outted themself, but I do like what it does for us. I can't see a town roleblocker and a jailkeeper in the same town setup, but maybe I'm wrong. If someone has a reason to tell me I'm wrong please do so. Given that situation, I think we have to Lynch between Garmr and Kraeg.

I think it doesn't make sense to Lynch outside of those two since there's basically a CC. I think whichever claimed pr doesn't get lynched should tell us in advance who they are going to target. If the claimed pr gets NKd it gives us a confirmed inno, because the rules for a mini normal is only 2 scum members.

I think we should drop down to L-2 here so we can actually talk out end of day.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Ok I counted Garmr, Mohab, and Norwegian on Kraeg. That's L-2. No one else should vote yet until we have some discussion on the claim and CC. And I want Kraeg to weigh in on Garmr as well.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I think it doesn't make sense to Lynch outside of those two since there's basically a CC. I think whichever claimed pr doesn't get lynched should tell us in advance who they are going to target. If the claimed pr gets NKd it gives us a confirmed inno, because the rules for a mini normal is only 2 scum members.

If we agreed to that, I'd no kill if i was scum. I vote we roll the dice and hope Garmr comes through the night.

That's why I didn't say there's be a confirmed guilty on whoever he targeted. But if he does, we'd have a confirmed inno. I don't think my logic was that complicated so I don't know why you wouldn't want a confirmed inno out of a dead jk. And btw this also only works if kraeg flips scum, because otherwise they could push the kill to the other member.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Strong townlean:
profii
Garmr

Light townlean:
Luca Blight
Skellen

Unsure:
Mohab500
Emperor FlippyNips

Scumlean:
Kraeg
Billy Pilgrim

Is this based on anything other than the way I've interacted with your slot? Because your case was exclusively based on that and you had me as unsure almost immediately before you wrote that case up.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I think it doesn't make sense to Lynch outside of those two since there's basically a CC. I think whichever claimed pr doesn't get lynched should tell us in advance who they are going to target. If the claimed pr gets NKd it gives us a confirmed inno, because the rules for a mini normal is only 2 scum members.

If we agreed to that, I'd no kill if i was scum. I vote we roll the dice and hope Garmr comes through the night.

That's why I didn't say there's be a confirmed guilty on whoever he targeted. But if he does, we'd have a confirmed inno. I don't think my logic was that complicated so I don't know why you wouldn't want a confirmed inno out of a dead jk. And btw this also only works if kraeg flips scum, because otherwise they could push the kill to the other member.

JK stops the scum kill action right?

So if Garmr targets scum!XXX and XXX decides to no kill, who is conf inno?

I'm missing something?

Remember that my play only makes sense if Kraeg flips scum. If he flips town, then we powerlynch Garmr tomorrow for the CC. However, if Kraeg flips scum then there is 1 scum and 7 town left including presumed pr Garmr. Garmr should tell us who he is protecting tonight before night. If Garmr dies, which I would expect if Kraeg flips scum, then whoever he targeted would be confirmed inno. That math checks because there would only be 1 scum left so whoever did the kill couldn't have been jailkept. I'd recommend choosing someone that's been a leader so we don't have to worry about a deepwolf. Id recommend Profii here. So that if Garmr dies we know for sure that Profii is town. That eliminates a mis-lynch option for us going into day 2.
If Garmr doesn't tell us who he's targeting then the scum team could kill him and his pr is worthless to us.

You are 100% correct in the event of a no kill. In that case we don't get any additional information. So if scum decides not to kill tonight despite losing one of their team members we go into tomorrow at 7v1 and we haven't lost our jk. I feel like him not saying his target doesn't help us at all.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Gramr, don't announce who you're blocking. Just choose someone you think is scum. This means that if there's 1 scum remaining he would have to gamble whether he should nightkill or not.

And if scum does nightkill, which is the normal option so they have less mis-lynches they need to assist with or Dodge, they the rest of the town would get no information out of it. Are just saying this because you're still upset about my earlier posts toward you? Because if you're town you're gonna have to get over it. I mean your comment and it's aggressiveness is bizarre. And given what profii explained the jail keep is more valuable if he confirms an innocent rather than potentially landing on scum. I can't think of why he wouldnt be the target. So if he doesn't say anything and dies we get no info. If he says something and dies we get info. And if he puts it on someone who is suspicious, then we run into the WIFOM problem and don't know whether he stopped the NK because he hit scum, or whether scum followed Profii's play and just didn't try the kill.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I think that Profii is the best target because he most clearly fits the town leader profile. If you want to jk me then fine. I think there's better targets, but if you think you need to confirm me as inno to read me then fine, but I think Profii has been strong with logic and cases. I'd rather have the leader confirmed then have a suspicious player confirmed.

Norwegian, let's assume Garmr jailkeeps me, he announced it and then he dies. In that case, I get confirmed as inno, how does that help town?

[Billy Pilgrim]

VOTE: kraeg

You probably dont want to JK me but feel free if that makes you feel better

Why's this vote here? I thought we were gonna wait. We had Luca catch up but there's more people that need to weigh in. You're letting Kraeg self hammer before EOD now.

[Billy Pilgrim]

UNVOTE:

didnt think of the self hammer

Did you miss the post where we had discussed it?

[Billy Pilgrim]

@ Kraeg and Garmr do you have a modifier on your role?

[Billy Pilgrim]

What would scum Kraeg gain from self-lynching in this scenario?

Cutting off the end of day discussion. Right now, I'd like to see everyone weigh in on this. Particularly people that haven't already expressed a position. And we could popcorn this too. E.g. it's clear that Profii, Norwegian, Garmr and Mohab are comfortable voting.

I want to hear Flippy's position on this, then he can popcorn elsewhere.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Will jail Mohan.

Why is this the best use? Honestly? This is such a low content slot. Why wouldn't you want us to know that a more active player who has been putting reasons out there is being genuine, rather than let us know that when someone sheeps they are honestly sheeping? Which one has more utility? Because I feel.like it would be the leader.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Look, I'll admit I'm not the best at this game. I think there's a reason I make LYLOs as town, which is what I'm trying to talk to you about Norwegian. But I play alot of games, so when it comes to mechanics, I think I can strategize them and maximize the utility of them. I think targeting a leader works better than targeting someone that's been identified as acting scummy.

Because in a D2 where Garmr is a dead jk and Mohab is a confirmed inno, I don't think that helps us much. Mohab is out of the pool, but then we don't know whether the person that's been doing alot of the analysis is leading us off a cliff.

So that's my 2 cents on this.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Yeah I don't find the point of jailing me since I barely have content anyways lol.

Anyways, I am still up for a Kraeg lynch, hopefully followed by Garmr. This is my main game.

I guess aside from those two, starting to get a little worried about Norwegian. It's most likely Kraeg > Garmr though.

Wait, is that the Lynch pool or are you saying that's the scumteam?

[Billy Pilgrim]

we should just not say who is going to be jailed. period.

if you say it's the scum person, they will just no kill and then we will be like are they innos? are they scum? it proves nothing. It's better for it to be a surprise.

Man, I'm feeling like the logic on this is so simple that I don't get why you would oppose this. Sure, if they don't kill then we get no info, but then we can no lynch and run it again. But if he doesn't say who he's jailing, or lies about it, he could die then we'd know nothing.

I think I may now see a non-scum reason youd say this, but I think the likelihood of it is low.

Shit, I can't figure this out, can you explain why him not using this to give us a conf!inno is not the best play?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Also, still want to know if there are modifiers on either Kraeg or Garmr's roles.

[Billy Pilgrim]

we should just not say who is going to be jailed. period.

if you say it's the scum person, they will just no kill and then we will be like are they innos? are they scum? it proves nothing. It's better for it to be a surprise.

Man, I'm feeling like the logic on this is so simple that I don't get why you would oppose this. Sure, if they don't kill then we get no info, but then we can no lynch and run it again. But if he doesn't say who he's jailing, or lies about it, he could die then we'd know nothing.

I think I may now see a non-scum reason youd say this, but I think the likelihood of it is low.

Shit, I can't figure this out, can you explain why him not using this to give us a conf!inno is not the best play?

I'm inno child tomorrow regardless of night action so I'm not desperate to inno someone. Obviously I'll clear that up tomorrow

I'd rather keep it secret, hope.garmr targets someone scummy, we get a no kill so there is some chance it's a scum hit and go from there

I get inno'd tomorrow and the scum pool gets narrower and narrower anyway

All good

Ok. This is obviously a soft, honestly it's so obvious that it's not even a soft. So I will defer. If this is a fake soft, I'm going to be furious and you're going to be mad suspicious, because you took a confirmed inno away. I really don't like it, but it's not my play to make.

Any other thoughts on this. Haven't heard from Emperor or much from Luca on this Lynch. Feel like Mohab, me, Garmr, and Norwegian have weighed in. Skellen should weigh in here on whether she's comfortable with this Lynch.

Also, still waiting to hear whether either of you have modifiers in your role. I went back through approved setups to see whether there were any with jailkeepers and roleblockers both on the town side. So I'd like to hear an answer to that question.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Skellen should weigh in here on whether she's comfortable with this Lynch.

Also, still waiting to hear whether either of you have modifiers in your role. I went back through approved setups to see whether there were any with jailkeepers and roleblockers both on the town side. So I'd like to hear an answer to that question.

I think my stance on Kraeg/Garmr is pretty clear, I am only waiting if flippy and Luca have nothing else to say and it's the general consensus to see the Kraeg lynch through. Call it intent to vote once we are all ready to move on. This day has peaked at this point anyway.

I am afraid you won't even find a 9p game with just a Town Roleblocker to begin with. Went through the micro queue after Kraeg's claim for a while and didn't even find one game with a Town Roleblocker. But then again half the micro setups are somehow weird anyway. At least I learned to appreciate mods that edit all flips into their op.

Oh yeah, and obviously no one should reply to the modifier question.

I found 1 approved setup it was a mini but not 9p in the setup review thread from the last year (wasn't by RadiantC though) that had both a jk and a town roleblocker. 1 of those roles had a modifier though.

[Billy Pilgrim]

. This is obviously a soft,

Or is it

<_<

>_>

<_<

Look, if you're confirmed tomorrow, as you suggest, great. If you're not and Garmr dies and we don't know for sure who he checked, then I'm coming for you. The one thing I can do well is strategy around mechanics, if you run this Gambit and we don't get a confirmed inno, then we blew our town pr for nothing.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Jesus, why does town think it's a good idea to fake claim on this site? Fake-softing is one thing to draw the NK, but fake cc'ing. Wtf? I changed the way I was thinking about this game and now I'm gonna have to come back to it tomorrow, because of this bullshit. I hate these stupid gambits. I hope you got something out of it, because I'm just pissed now.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Yeah let's keep it simple. Honestly, when push comes to shove. All this god damn talk about PR's doesn't change Kraeg's scumminess one bit. Let's just get this over with and lynch Kraeg already.
VOTE: Kraeg

What exactly is scummy about Kraeg?

[Billy Pilgrim]

If Mohab flips town I don't know how much I'm going to be able to play this game. I was literally doing a post about Profii then this happens?

[Billy Pilgrim]

What the actual hell is going on in this game. Self-claimed town fake CC'd then self hammered. Christ I hate this. How am I supposed to read this game?

[Billy Pilgrim]

And now I think he's probably going to flip town, because otherwise why make that frustrated post as he self-hammers?

[Billy Pilgrim]

The though running through my mind is Garmr

He said with bold certainty that Luca was scum, I doubt it
He lied to try and get the lynch he wanted

So he is not playing a team game - is he doing it because he thinks he is the smartest guy in the room (hint garmr, answer seems to be no at this point)

Or is he trying to push a mislynch

So let's think on that

A Kraeg mislynch infers kraeg!town and garmr,!scum - doesn't necessarily mean garmr JK as scum lie

Kraeg does have a low content play style that is easy to call scummy so is a good push for scum but if he flips town we would instantly lynch garmr tomorrow so youd have to be confident that your pal is deep wolf and happy to fend off about 3 lynches

I dont think anyone fits that bill

So I dont think Garmr is scum actually so i retract my point that we lynch him tomorrow - I was just annoyed at this idiocy

So the other scenario is that Kraeg AND garmr are both town. I'll consider that later

I think I need to come back with fresh eyes as I'm totally unimpressed by Garmrs antics

As Billy pointed out you one can soft to attract a NK, which I've obviously attempted to save a JK but for absolutely no reason at all other than garmr thinks he knows it all

Mad right now

Seems kinda like a fake reason to be mad since your not a noob. People do worse shit on this site all the time get over it, it produced some decent reactions.

Honestly I don't think I'm the smartest guy in the room but I will gladly sell myself that way to push a gambit, if I actually thought I was the smartest guy I wouldn't of called it off due to stubbornness.

The pay off If kreag was scum I would of taken the bullet lynched scum and saved a potential power role. Also even now scum will find it hard to act appropriately in the chaos. A Chaos has caused many a scum to slip up because scum don't think like town, while it's easier for scum to adapt to a cookie cutter game, If a bombshell like this hits them they will find it harder and harder to mimic a natural town reaction.

You fail to understand me through and what I get out the game judging by your post. We are fundamentally different when it comes to mafia.

If people do worse shit I'd get mad at them too dont worry.

I think we have to consider Kraeg as town, which was what happened when the wagon died on him post claim anyway. The only reason it came back was you made a counter claim against a player that looks scummy to everyone.

We have the fact that Kraeg posted between my L-1 and unvote and no self hammer which helps me believe he is town.

You must realise if Kraeg flips town then you are the day 2 lynch. that means the game would probably be at 1v4 which is 3 lynches for your buddy. I dont see anyone in this game saying yeah I'll take that on - so I can't see you trading a PR for 1 of a 2 man team. That suggests you are town.


So then we have mohab who seemingly doesn't understand this counter claim situation. I didnt really want to meta dive but I feel like I need to go check if Mohab has previously displayed similar apparent incompetance in other scum games - if so I'd declare intent but it seems too good to be true at this point so I'm not jumping in with intent right now.



Your billy point is interesting though so if we need to take anything out of this epsiode it's that.
revisit 397 - Billy wants to be in the 'interested in voting kraeg' group but you have come in here and said Billy is trying to justify you and Kraeg as town - that's conflicting in itself.

Let's look at where billly went - initially he says it's a shame you outed yourself but draws up a lynch pool of you and Kraeg, who are both looking town now, so that's bad.
I think I have probably given Billy the oppurtunity to LAMIST by debating the scenarios of what to do with your JK power.
He wants me JK'd for being a leader - over - a suspicious slot - even though I advocated for a secret JK, I wouldnt do this.
448 again LAMIST
454 fishy
455 this is interesting - if billy flips scum we need to revisit this post, I know I'm town and I'm leaning garmr town, so if Kraeg flips town, Billy was happy to highlight at least 2 town players who were pushing town!kraeg, this looks like lining up mislynches to me.
457 this doesnt actually make sense, according to 457 mohab is in the scum pool so if kraeg flips town you potentially stop the nk but he really wants me in Jail - does billy believe I'm a PR? If we dont lynch billy and I die... you know what do...
458 "I make lylo" yeah well scum tend to... is how I am now reading that
464 fishy fishy



VOTE: billy

Go back and check. When I initially wanted you in jail, it was before you medium claimed a PR. And the one you claimed anyway sounded like IC. Don't know how putting you in jail at night would prevent that. Also, the post you said was fishy was the modifier post, and I dug through a bunch of approved setups to find out whether that was a possible setup, or whether that was an automatic CC, and I found at least one game that had been approved with a JK and a town roleblocker, but there was a modifier attached. It made sense to nerf the power of one role a little bit so given that there was a valid setup with both roles I wanted to see if someone would claim a modifier, because I still hadn't ruled out the possibility that both were town, and I wanted to sort through that possibility.

And yeah I LAMISTed it up during the PR spec. You talk about meta dives of the other players, did you meta dive me? Because i do that all the time. I use usand 1st person language when talking about town, I use them language and 3rd person when talking about scum. It certainly doesn't make me town, but it definitely isn't scum indicative.

455 I wanted everyone to have a clear position on that Lynch. Saying that people were comfortable with it, WHEN I WAS INCLUDING MYSELF IN THAT CATEGORY is lining up mis-lynches how exactly?

And at the time of those posts I had basically been in a mental position where Kraeg was gone. In fact when I saw Garmr recant the cc, it completely threw me off.

Gah, this was the game out of the three I'm playing at the moment that I was devoting the most mental energy to, and now I don't know what the hell is going on.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I can create a scenario where billy is scum in my head as he seems to shift his opinions slots if they majority town or scum read (like me). But there's some things left unanswered and my gut is telling me his town.

Mohab seems more scummy to me

VOTE: Mohab

This is definitely consistent with how I played vis-a-vis the Kraeg wagon. It also fits with the fact that I was the second to vote you after Luca when you were being townread by most everyone else, and it definitely fits with me being very early if not first on the Mohab wagon. /s


So are my opinions shifting to purposefully stick out?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I think I'm being lined up for a mis-lynch and I think it's by Profii.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Go back and check. When I initially wanted you in jail, it was before you medium claimed a PR. And the one you claimed anyway sounded like IC. Don't know how putting you in jail at night would prevent that

tbh i just wanted to see if i could keep garmr alive because i thought his claim was right and he was worth drawing the night kill from

now he is retracting his claim i am just openly saying i was mucking about haha

Then why'd you use it to case me? Because you cased me after his retraction.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Damnit Mohab. If you're town and just suicided 3 days our from deadline I'm going to be so pissed. If you're scum, then thanks for the favor and smart to not let more discussion out.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I don't see the scum equity in Garmr's play of fake claiming then retracting before he gets the lynch, so I think that's a nonsense townplay, but I would definitely check that slot w/investigative because otherwise he is gonna deepwolf that cred ftw.

I think Profii may be scum here. I think the past couple of posts were strange, and like I said, I think he was setting me up for a mislynch, but Mohab's self hammer cut that off. Even if I'm the NK (which I wouldn't expect to be), that doesn't clear him, because he is sophisticated enough to manipulate that for his benefit.

Luca feels town but that's more gut than anything.

Skellen feels town.

Emperor is null.

I feel like Norwegian is town. Again, it's town because I don't see an agenda.

And I have no idea what is going on with Kraeg. There is low content from that slot, but he hopped wagons after they lost momentum, so I don't see why that's scummy. The PR could be real. I'm confused by this slot so while I can see why others find it scummy for the low content, I don't know how to read this. I probably shade it town. Don't know why he didn't go to war against Garmr on the cc. And if he's gonna fakeclaim he probably picked one of the weakest fake claims. So I think this is null with a slight lean town.

[Billy Pilgrim]

So we have two claimed prs that survived, but they both retracted so j don't know what to make of that. We have one claimed pr that survived. Given how scumread he was that could either be part of the team, or it could be left there for a WIFOM mislynch, and that particularly fits given the NK. I don't know why anyone would kill Norwegian here. I don't think he was that town-read, and he wasn't a leader. I know that Kraeg was focused on him pretty hard, so was it just a way to force us to focus on Kraeg given that he claimed a PR and survived and the guy that was focused on him all day was the NK? Because I don't know why else Norwegian is the NK, and that reasoning is just so simple that it can't explain what happened

We're one day out from LYLO and we have at least one night of info, does a massclaim make sense here? Because I don't know what to make of this game now.

[Billy Pilgrim]

also, Kraeg is maintaining his PR claim, so he should let us know who/if he roleblocked

@Mod - hypothetically speaking, of course, in a game where a town roleblocker existed, if he choose to roleblock the scum player who conducted the kill, would that stop the kill taking place? I thought not and it was just a JK that would stop that but help please?

Why wouldn't that be what it does? It stops the role of the person he blocks. It doesn't do the j/k's extra function of protecting the person from the kill, but it does block the role of whomever he targeted.

Unfortunately, because there are likely 2 scum, according to the normal rules, his roleblock won't tell us anything because scum could have assigned the kill to the person he didn't block. And it won't confirm him inno even if he hit someone who was a PR, because he may be a mafia RB.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Man, did folks stop playing this game? Day started and nothing all day except me and Profii?

@Mod I'm V/LA for 36 hours. I probably won't post at all tomorrow.

[Billy Pilgrim]

VOTE COUNT 1.7

Mohab500 (1) - Billy Pilgrim
Skellen (0) -
Luca Blight (2) -

Garmr

, Emperor FlippyNips
Garmr (0) -
Emperor FlippyNips (0) -
profii (0) -
NorwegianboyEE (1) - Kraeg

L-1

Kraeg (4) -

NorwegianboyEE, Mohab500,

Skellen, profii
Billy Pilgrim (1) -

Not Voting: Luca Blight

ACTIVITY NOTES:
Luca Blight is V/LA through Monday, Sept 9
Skellen has been prodded.

With 9 alive, it takes 5 votes to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is Friday, September 13th at 10:00 am PDT which is in

(expired on 2019-09-13 10:00:00)

VOTE COUNT 1.8

Mohab500

(1) - Billy Pilgrim
Skellen (0) -
Luca Blight (0) -
Garmr (0) -
Emperor FlippyNips (0) -
profii (0) -

NorwegianboyEE

(1) - Kraeg[/color]

L-1

Kraeg (4) -

NorwegianboyEE, Mohab500

, Skellen,

Garmr

Billy Pilgrim (0) -

Not Voting: Luca Blight, Emperor FlippyNips, profii

VOTE COUNT 1.13

L-1

Mohab500

(4) - Billy Pilgrim, Kraeg, Luca Blight,

Garmr

Skellen (0) -
Luca Blight (0) -
Garmr (0) -
Emperor FlippyNips (0) -
profii (0) -
NorwegianboyEE (0) -
Kraeg (2) -

Mohab5

NorwegianboyEE

Billy Pilgrim (0) - 00,

Not Voting: Emperor FlippyNips, Skellen, profii

ACTIVITY NOTES:
All is good!

With 9 alive, it takes 5 votes to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is Friday, September 13th at 10:00 am PDT which is in

(expired on 2019-09-13 10:00:00)

Hmm the first two are interesting. Me and profii are in the same position on two different vote counts but the situation is different.

Profii jumps off because of the roleclaim while I Jump on. I think skellen is town so from my pov the entire wagon on kreag is town. So profii should either be really suspicious of skellen or kreag since he seems to town read me. Becuase if kreag is town at the point Profii was on multiple people could of hammered and easily of used the excuse but Kreag roleclaim was scummy. Also while kreag himself acted like both roles could coexist so did Billy. While not what scum should do Kreag has been weird all game and I don't think we should treat him as standard.

There's atleast one scum on mohabs wagon. The candidates are kreag, Luca and billy. Kreags really starting to tick all the scum boxes on reflecting on how events played out.

VOTE: Kreag

Why are you so confident there's one scum on Mohab's wagon?

Mod Edit: Fixed broken quote tags

[Billy Pilgrim]

VOTE COUNT 1.7

Mohab500 (1) - Billy Pilgrim
Skellen (0) -
Luca Blight (2) -

Garmr

, Emperor FlippyNips
Garmr (0) -
Emperor FlippyNips (0) -
profii (0) -
NorwegianboyEE (1) - Kraeg

L-1

Kraeg (4) -

NorwegianboyEE, Mohab500,

Skellen, profii
Billy Pilgrim (1) -

Not Voting: Luca Blight

ACTIVITY NOTES:
Luca Blight is V/LA through Monday, Sept 9
Skellen has been prodded.

With 9 alive, it takes 5 votes to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is Friday, September 13th at 10:00 am PDT which is in

(expired on 2019-09-13 10:00:00)

VOTE COUNT 1.8

Mohab500

(1) - Billy Pilgrim
Skellen (0) -
Luca Blight (0) -
Garmr (0) -
Emperor FlippyNips (0) -
profii (0) -

NorwegianboyEE

(1) - Kraeg[/color]

L-1

Kraeg (4) -

NorwegianboyEE, Mohab500

, Skellen,

Garmr

Billy Pilgrim (0) -

Not Voting: Luca Blight, Emperor FlippyNips, profii

VOTE COUNT 1.13

L-1

Mohab500

(4) - Billy Pilgrim, Kraeg, Luca Blight,

Garmr

Skellen (0) -
Luca Blight (0) -
Garmr (0) -
Emperor FlippyNips (0) -
profii (0) -
NorwegianboyEE (0) -
Kraeg (2) -

Mohab5

NorwegianboyEE

Billy Pilgrim (0) - 00,

Not Voting: Emperor FlippyNips, Skellen, profii

ACTIVITY NOTES:
All is good!

With 9 alive, it takes 5 votes to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is Friday, September 13th at 10:00 am PDT which is in

(expired on 2019-09-13 10:00:00)

Hmm the first two are interesting. Me and profii are in the same position on two different vote counts but the situation is different.

Profii jumps off because of the roleclaim while I Jump on. I think skellen is town so from my pov the entire wagon on kreag is town. So profii should either be really suspicious of skellen or kreag since he seems to town read me. Becuase if kreag is town at the point Profii was on multiple people could of hammered and easily of used the excuse but Kreag roleclaim was scummy. Also while kreag himself acted like both roles could coexist so did Billy. While not what scum should do Kreag has been weird all game and I don't think we should treat him as standard.

There's atleast one scum on mohabs wagon. The candidates are kreag, Luca and billy. Kreags really starting to tick all the scum boxes on reflecting on how events played out.

VOTE: Kreag

Why are you so confident there's one scum on Mohab's wagon?

Mod Edit: Fixed broken quote tags

You are saying both wagons are are all town and the entire scum teams is between swollen emperor numpty and profii.?

You just named a three person potential scum pool. Why are you so confident that that's not a possibility? I'm not saying anything at this point. In my mind, Profii pinged me hard at the end of D1 when he cased me on a misrep. Now, I don't know if that was a mistake or genuine, but at the moment, it felt off. So I don't know for sure that scum was on that Mohab wagon, and that self-hammer makes that conclusion harder.

At the end of D1, you were my top town read because if you wanted to push me for a mis-lynch earlier you could have. And when I flipped town, everyone would have bought the case and they'd have looked at the folks that hopped on later. So the fact that you backed off and reapproached either means that you decided that pocketing me was better than mis-lynching me, in which case good move, because I'll probably need a guilty on you to flip, or you're town. I'm really hoping I'm right about town.

So why are you so confident the scum team isn't in your pool?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I don't think it's necessary for me to say who I targetted last night. It won't give us a conftown.

You should say because if we mass claim it will be useful information.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Is anyone going to weigh in on my massclaim request? I feel like it would help sort for me. And if we mislynch today, we're at LYLO tomorrow.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I'm completely lost in this game. I felt like a massclaim would help me, but there's no takers for that. I'm terrified at the moment that Profii is deepwolfing here. I also think everyone seems set on Kraeg scum, but I don't know what team makes sense there. Skellen proposed Flippy, but if I remember, Flippy was ready to hammer him a little while ago and didn't push anyone as a counter wagon at the time. I'm worried that scum is pushing Kraeg as an easy target here, and given the NK that seems almost too convenient.

I don't like the way that Profii pushed me yesterday, and then it seemed like he was setting up Luca and me on his way out the gate today but quickly went to Kraeg when it seemed like there was more knterest for that as a target.

You daring someone to come after you because you want to see who will push you, I think it may be a bluff. You're de facto town leader at this point, so if you can confirm yourself town, do it. Because right now, my paranoia is kicking in and I think you're steering us off a cliff.

VOTE: Profii

[Billy Pilgrim]

Wow you folks must all live in England. I went to bed after like 7 hours of Flippy being the last poster asking Profii to get himself confirmed.

I'm VT.

So
Garmr - claimed VT
Flippy - claimed VT
Skellen - claimed VT
Billy - claimed VT

Luca - claimed Mason with Profii
Profii - claimed Mason with Luca

Kraeg - claimed town roleblocker

Ok I think a fake Mason claim by scum outside of LYLO is just suicide. A roleblocker here looks like town may have too much power, but maybe a mafia roleblocker could even that up, I don't know. Why is town roleblocker a fake claim though? I liked Garmr's explanation earlier that it was his mafia role and he just called it town, but if he's a mafia roleblocker everyone is VT and there's 2 Masons then that setup doesn't make sense.

Luca already held out. Is anyone else holding back their real role? I'm VT. I don't care how many times we claim, that's my role. If I die, that will be my flip. I'm trying to make sense of this game, and I don't understand why scum would fakeclaim town roleblocker, or why two scum would fakeclaim Mason's together 1 day before LYLO. I feel like someone has to be holding back.

I also wish we'd have forced this earlier, but Kraeg who did you RB?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Amusingly luca tried to copy my reads... it came across unnaturally and you picked up on it but I just had to support luca

this makes the game so much easier actually
UNVOTE: kreag
if no one claims a active role that would confirm kreag as town btw im vt.

Why'd you unvote?

VOTE: Kraeg

I don't think I'm going to get an answer to my question from the previous post (but I would like it, you may be contributing to a mis-lynch by not claiming here, because my vote is based on setup analysis) and because a roleblocker doesn't make sense in a setup with masons I think that's a fakeclaim. Also, that's L-2.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Nevermind, it's L-3.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Ok, anyone else wanna weigh in here? Come-on folks let's play some mafia.

[Billy Pilgrim]

So I'm pretty sure EFN is scum

It makes no sense for scum to have a RB with no other PRs, nothing for them to block and it seems unfair that they have a misleading PR so I'm going back to my original theory that too many people wanted a Kraeg lynch day 1

I'm fairly certain Billy was showing genuine paranoia pre-claim so I'll call him town

So then we have Garmr who sabotaged a mislynch on Kraeg - I will re read this slot that is crazy for scum

Which means my feeling that skellen is allowing town tov wander into that Kraeg mislynch is right

VOTE: EFN

If kraeg could RB skellen tonight as well that would be super

This is a fairly compelling theory. RB would be a weaker jl so as to only block the NK. 3prs is pretty strong though even though 2 are masons. Particularly since 2 Masons is in the new newbie 2d3 setup and balanced with both 2 goons and a Mafia RB. And actually that makes sense for Kraeg scum. Is anyone going to claim any other PRs? Because a Kraeg scum flip may make Garmr scum here when he changed his original bussing strat for town cred. Whereas a Kraeg town flip may make Profii's theory correct.

I am gonna keep my vote on Kraeg for now. I swear if anyone is holding back a town PR, it may easily cause a mis-lynch today.

[Billy Pilgrim]

So you are saying we could be in A3 of the newbie setup and the mod just hasn't told us - which explains the seemingly nonsensical scum rb?

I dunno man. It's all mechanical and not based on play

That's definitely a possibility. And yes, it is

mostly

mechanical, but not entirely. If we're in A3, it would explain why Garmr moved from hard defending Kraeg early D1 to literally running a fakeclaim Gambit to get him lynched. If you remember, Kraeg's roleblocker claim was out there for a while before Garmr fakeclaimed. So he could have been pretty sure that no one else was going to fakeclaim. So it could have been a bussing Gambit that he ran when it looked like Kraeg was going down.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Particularly since 2 Masons is in the new newbie 2d3 setup and balanced with both 2 goons and a Mafia RB.

Ah cool, since when got the newbie queue new setups? But yeah, it's kind of interesting, although I don't get the idea behind the latter constellation. However these new setups are from the same guy as this game's setup. That would rather indicate that a Town Roleblocker seems very unlikely here, athough I don't necessarily think we are in the same setup.
Anyway I see no point to run in circles when the big elephant in the room has still done nothing that would indicate town and the result of the massclaim just adds fuel to it.

VOTE: Kraeg

I think this is L-1. No lolhammers. Intent then we discuss.

Anyone holding back a PR?

[Billy Pilgrim]

VOTE: Kraeg
Also, that's L-2.

Kraeg (2) - profii, Billy Pilgrim

With 7 alive, it takes 4 votes to lynch.

Nevermind, it's L-3.

VOTE: EFN

VOTE: Kraeg

I think this is L-1.

Billy's adventures in the wonderful world of numbers.

It's actually L-2. Two votes on Kraeg with profii changing his vote to flippy.

Yeah, I'm awesome with the maths.

[Billy Pilgrim]

That's definitely a possibility. And yes, it is

mostly

mechanical, but not entirely. If we're in A3, it would explain why Garmr moved from hard defending Kraeg early D1 to literally running a fakeclaim Gambit to get him lynched. If you remember, Kraeg's roleblocker claim was out there for a while before Garmr fakeclaimed. So he could have been pretty sure that no one else was going to fakeclaim. So it could have been a bussing Gambit that he ran when it looked like Kraeg was going down.

I am not sure I get you right here, but aren't you assuming that scum would know the setup then? That aside this looks super risky, particularly if Kraeg would have gotten hammered before Garmr could have retracted his claim and well, obviously would have survived the night.

Not really. I think Kraeg could have been fake-claiming his or his partner's scum role. Claimed townroleblocker when either he or his partner is mafia roleblocker.

I think when it made it as long as it did without getting counterclaimed and sort of hanging out there that maybe Garmr decided to cc him as jk as a hard bus. If that Lynch goes through he would have been able to ride that for the town cred. When the Lynch went through, Garmr decided it would be better to keep his teammate alive and walked back from the Cliff. Then the Mohab thing was almost instant.

So no, I don't think scum needed to know the setup for the play to have gone down the way it did.

[Billy Pilgrim]

If Kraeg flips town, and someone claims a pr tomorrow, I am going to have a hard time believing it.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Although Kraeg not posting in almost 2 days while he is on the block? I don't know how to interpret that.

[Billy Pilgrim]

If Kraeg flips town, and someone claims a pr tomorrow, I am going to have a hard time believing it.

you keep saying this like you know it's going to happen...

I'm saying this because I've seen a game on this site recently where it happened. And in this game we saw a fakeclaim for a jk which then got retracted. And my vote was based mostly on setup at that point, so if this is a mis-lynch and someone held back a PR, I'm going to have trouble believing it.

[Billy Pilgrim]

If Kraeg flips town, and someone claims a pr tomorrow, I am going to have a hard time believing it.

you keep saying this like you know it's going to happen...

Billy's making me paranoid a lot of his post seem like they are laying ground work for tomorrow. Like him Spreading seeds of doubt about me with no actual real reason to scum read me.

My paranoia can often run off on people. And I said from D1 if I were an investigative I'd have checked you N1. But then again I tend to be worried that people are always trying to deepwolf.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Okay well I 100% trust the mason claim. Thanks scum for giving us a confirmed townie

they were confirmed masons after the scum flip. Unless one was lying which I don't think Luca is the type.

Yeah, I agree. I don't know what Emperor is talking about here.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Ok, I read back through Kraeg's iso, and I'd recommend everyone do that. Something jumped out at me. He shaded almost everyone. Almost everyone. He starts by "sheeping" Garmr and voting Norwegian at 24. Then he immediately shades Flippy for voting Skellen w/o explaining it @25. Then another post shading Norwegian. Then at post 63 he shades me for the V/LA, then 64 he adds Luca onto that pile.

Post 105 is the first time he does something other than shade or attack and it's to express that Skellen is null because the "too textbook" read from Profii may just be a newbie thing.
106 shades Luca for his read of Skellen. Then a couple of posts where he's not doing much. Then 184 he hops on the Garmr wagon. Then 185 shades Mohab while he's on the Garmr wagon, while continuing to say he's comfortable with a Garmr Lynch while Garmr at this time I don't think was close to Lynch.

A couple of posts that are mostly defensive, then 269 back to accusing Mohab of misrepresenting him. 270 back to shading Norwegian and Mohab. 271 has Garmr, Norwegian and Mohab as his scumleans. Then he's back to defense for a while. Maybe those 300 oats are interesting because at 342 he says that he thinks that he wouldn't be surprised if both scum are on his wagon. And 324 he said that one player would definitely flip scum, but he kept it vague so j don't know if you can do a POE here.

Then day 2 there's like nothing. Bit of shade for Profii about not being confirmed inno child and voting Garmr.

What I got from this was that he didn't try to townread anyone. Everything was either a scum read or scum lean. Also lots of shade. He shaded Mohab, Luca, myself, Norwegian, Emperor. Scumread/leaned Garmr, Mohab, and Norwegian.

Here's the weird outliers. He didn't really go after Profii, now conf!town, or Skellen.

Now I don't know what to make of that. I feel like I want to clear Garmr off these interactions, because Garmr probably got it the worst, but Norwegian was the second worst and he was the nightkill. So I feel like these interactions probably clear Garmr.

Skellen looks the worst from Kraeg's iso. The null read sticks out. Like alot. But he didn't shade Profii and he's conf!town so I don't know what to make of that. Imy suspicion is a bit elevated by Skellen's sort of de-emphasis of Kraeg's iso so I'm going to re-read there.

I also looked at the VCs. Here, Skellen looks a bit better. Skellen is on Kraeg 3rd when he gets to L-1. Then not voting when Mohab gets to L-1 and not voting at end of day.

Day 2 Skellen is third on Kraeg behind Profii and myself, which turned into second when Profii voted Emperor later.

When I looked at the VCs, Emperor jumped out at me. He's sort of absent the whole time. He had an RVS vote on Skellen, which is what prompted Kraeg's post at the beginning shading him. Then he moves over to Luca during the Garmr/Luca 1v1 (which means that he was on an opposite side of Kraeg - so that may mean something). Then he unvotes and doesn't cast a vote the rest of the day.

He went all of day 2 without voting.

I think it's between the two low activity slots. That may also explain why Kraeg got to kill Norwegian, because I did not understand that night kill.

[Billy Pilgrim]

So just going to throw this out there. We know that a townie lied and said they were vanilla townie since scum have a roleblocker.

Billy also slipped having knowledge about it yesterday by saying No one would believe it if they came out today.

I think this is L-1. No lolhammers. Intent then we discuss.

Anyone holding back a PR?

If Kraeg flips town, and someone claims a pr tomorrow, I am going to have a hard time believing it.

Therefore billy is either the town power role or scum that has knowledge of it. I think it's the latter as these look like his fishing for a response not setting up his claim for latter.

I'm 100% vanilla townie and didn't lie about it. So I think the other role should claim.

I don't understand why you're trying to Lynch me so bad today, but this is just wrong, and I'm pretty sure we talked about it D2 so I don't know why you made the mistake. There is a newD3 setup (specifically A3) with a mafia roleblocker and 2 town masons as the exclusive PRs. Now, I no longer think a town pr is holding back. I was saying that yesterday because I wanted to confirm the masons. Once Kraeg flipped they were confirmed for me, because I couldn't one of them confirming the other unless they were both masons. Also, scum masons aren't normal. So Luca and Profii were both lock town once Kraeg flipped. So yes, I was fishing. We were already in mass claim and I made it clear I wanted to get a sense of the setup. And it was my analysis of the setup that had me cast the vote to hit scum Kraeg.

And I saw some late claims post mass claim in the only game I remember playing against Emperor.

Also, Emperor saying:

I think i need to go back over BIlly/skellen before i come to a decision. Cos I haven’t been able to read them all game & in most games I’ve played with them they are pretty obvi town to me.

is pretty odd, because he and I only played one game together, which I can finally talk about since it's over. In that game I passed two "tests," for which I got heavily read as town. Except I was scum.

So what are you talking about unless you were setting up to vote me?

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Billy– have I only played that game with you. I thought it was at least two. & I looked at that game last night & didn’t realize you were in it. I just saw Goble & LUV. but now that you said something I went and checked the playlist.

That's the only one I had off the top of my head. Then when I checked your topics, that is the only game name I recognized and I've only been on site for like 2 and a half months. So I think that's the only one.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I feel like we should just lynch billy and end the game.

I'm a mislynch, and your play today, in ignoring that you were the first one to defend Kraeg for surface level scummy behavior, while using it to create associatives with me, and pushing me hard makes me think youre the other scum here. But I don't want to get this wrong, because if I'm dead, which it looks like is probably going to happen, I don't want to send the rest of town in the wrong direction. So I'm going to re-read.

Yes, I liked your post trying to look past whether Kraeg was just surface level scummy. I had just seen it in that 2095 game that I was playing with Emperor, where tchill had done the same thing in reference to Emperor. And I knew it was from town, because I was scum. So when I saw you do that, it looked like you were reading for motivation rather than surface level pushes. Now I wonder if you were just protecting your teammate who did nothing but surface pushes all game.

But Skellen again not commenting on the fact that Kraeg shaded virtually everyone but her and Profii after I pointed it out makes me feel like I might be onto something there.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Also, I doubt this will persuade anyone, but I 100% would not kill Norwegian N1. In fact it's unlikely that I NK him at all. I want him in LYLO with me as scum. Turns out his focus on Kraeg was right, but the guy seemed to have problems getting off anyone that scumread him. That's an asset for scum in LYLO.

The fact that Garmr pushed Norwegian's reads so hard, but waited a full day to do it makes me think it may be him. I'm going to recheck the VCA and see if a Garmr/Kraeg team makes sense. My initial thought is no because of how that claim went down, but based on how play developed after that cc, he could have been trying to use that situation to deepwolf. I'm not there yet, I want to recheck the vote counts.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Ok, sounds like I'm dead today so this is what I'd ask, because game won't be over tonight one of you other four will be dead, which I would guess would be Luca. I'm actually a little surprised I won't make it around to LYLO, a little grateful given the mistake shenanigans. That said, I'm gonna try and give some help before I go down.

@Garmr - assuming I'm town and you have to play tomorrow, who is scum?

@Skellen - it sounds like you were gearing up for Flippy if it's not me. Is that your second bet?

@Flippy, if you are gonna vote me, where is scum if you have to play tomorrow?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I think Skellen is probably town. The only thing that pointed me her way was the way Kraeg interacted with her slot. I think her position vis-a-vis that interaction was good. If I'm wrong on that then well played Skellen.

So I'm between Flippy and Garmr, which assuming I'm today's lunch will probably be the two people left tomorrow with Skellen since Luca is conf!town.

It sounds like most people prefer a Flippy Lynch between the two. I see that, but I have this feeling that it may be Garmr.

Look, Flippy is a solid choice. He's been disengaged the whole game. He says he is going to get back into it, but today he bought time then said he would let us know how he was feeling with a vote. He may have just been waiting to see who there was more interest at the time. I don't know what to make of his interactions with Kraeg. Kraeg's second post in the game shaded Flippy for naked voting Skellen. That could have been svs. Not sure why Flippy would have given intent when Kraeg hit L-1 the way he did if that was his roleblocking partner, but given that it's between either Flippy or Garmr, I have to think either that scum!Flippy expressed intent almost immediately after hitting L-1 when from his POV the Lynch looked all but certain. Or I have to believe that scum!Garmr CC'd his powered partner. I don't think Garmr is wrong to describe me as non-committal with respect to my sorting, but I do think his description of my intent is incorrect. I want everyone to think about how easy this game would be to solve if I'm town. That's part of why I asked that question of both Garmr and Skellen. Skellen seems to have an answer. I don't know that I do.

Im going to operate on the premise that Skellen is town. I can't second guess that at this point or I won't have anything. So between Flippy and Garmr I have to make a decision. If it's Flippy, I basically have to work on the assumption that town had scum, then with minimal assistance from scum redirected a wagon onto town. Mohab hammering is a little wrinkle, but nonetheless that I'm on Mohab for most of day1 then Kraeg votes Mohab claiming that "he's sheeping everyone."

If instead it's Garmr, then we have Garmr starting off with Luca, then CC'ing Kraeg and expressing intent, then hopping onto Kraeg after Profii unvoted, then he parks on Kraeg for a while before hopping over to Mohab, which put Mohab to L-1 before the self-hammer. Then Garmr is 3rd on the Kraeg wagon on D-2.

I'm killing Profii or Garmr (assuming he's town) N1. Also, in my only completed scum game on site, I fakeclaimed cop. Here I pushed for a massclaim and claimed VT. And if it looked like I was rolefishing that's fair. Skellen pointed that out and I don't disagree. What I was actually doing was trying to make sense of the setup. I actually looked at all the approved setups and found one where a town loyal role locker had been approved and I think it may have been in a setup with a jailkeeper (but I can't remember off the top of my head.). So yeah, I was trying to make sense mechanically of the PR claims. That's why I wanted to know if there were any other claims. There was a game just completed with Luca and Flippy where 1 town and 1 scum each fakeclaimed after massclaim. Since I was using setup to figure out my vote and we had already massclaimed, I wanted to make sure I had all the info. And at that point I was trying to figure out if the Mason claim was real.

Garmr comes out the gate on D3 partially trying to build a case off of Norwegian's day one reads. This feels like a hell of a reach. I think maybe he did the kill N1 hoping that someone else would point out the read, but when that didn't work he went back to it.

Look, I don't know where the other scum is. I think Flippy is the easier target here, but I don't know how based on so much inactivity he gets to LYLO, which he will if I'm the Lynch. I think Garmr is the better target today followed by Flippy tomorrow.

Skellen if you're scum good game.

Also, Garmr has left alot of my questions directed towards him unanswered. Even today, I asked a bunch of questions, of a few people, but Garmr shaded me for being in survival mode and not trying to sort. I don't know what he's talking about. I've resigned myself to being the lynch. I don't think I'm talking myself out of the rope. I'm literally just doing this to give good advice when I'm dead.

So as of now, my preference is Garmr>Flippy. But I don't think both my targets will go down. I'm just asking people to take a second look at Garmr and determine if inactive scum!Flippy makes sense in this game.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Ok, sounds like I'm dead today so this is what I'd ask, because game won't be over tonight one of you other four will be dead, which I would guess would be Luca. I'm actually a little surprised I won't make it around to LYLO, a little grateful given the mistake shenanigans. That said, I'm gonna try and give some help before I go down.

@Garmr - assuming I'm town and you have to play tomorrow, who is scum?

@Skellen - it sounds like you were gearing up for Flippy if it's not me. Is that your second bet?

@Flippy, if you are gonna vote me, where is scum if you have to play tomorrow?

Well this could of been condensed & just said “who is scum when i flip greeen @everyone but Luca”
1.)why is that? Just cos you think he’d be dead tomorrow?
2.)why are you surprised you’re not making it to LYLO?
And last but not least
3.)In what way do you think these questions help us now?

I'm surprised because I think I'm usually an easy target and my reads are weird so I'm usually a liability in LYLO.

Also, I think I had written that before Luca got back, but nonetheless, he's conf!town so I don't need to sort him.

And I think they help me. Me and the scum team know my alignment, but I think that figuring out who other people think are scum when I flip green will help me in saying who I think is scum for tomorrow.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I'm surprised because I think I'm usually an easy target and my reads are weird so I'm usually a liability in LYLO.

Also, I think I had written that before Luca got back, but nonetheless, he's conf!town so I don't need to sort him.

And I think they help me. Me and the scum team know my alignment, but I think that figuring out who other people think are scum when I flip green will help me in saying who I think is scum for tomorrow.[/quote]

Why wouldn’t you want the conf!towns opinion?

The questions are meant to help you out? In what way? & what are you going to do with the information?[/quote]

Yes, they're meant to help me out. And I'd prefer to have it before I disclose why. And if people would prefer, you can wait until everyone's weighed in and my Lynch is inevitable, but I'd like to weigh in before someone hammers me. Maybe I don't get anything useful out of it, but maybe I do, and if so I'd like to help town out with it.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I'm surprised because I think I'm usually an easy target and my reads are weird so I'm usually a liability in LYLO.

Also, I think I had written that before Luca got back, but nonetheless, he's conf!town so I don't need to sort him.

And I think they help me. Me and the scum team know my alignment, but I think that figuring out who other people think are scum when I flip green will help me in saying who I think is scum for tomorrow.

Why wouldn’t you want the conf!towns opinion?

The questions are meant to help you out? In what way? & what are you going to do with the information?[/quote]

Yes, they're meant to help me out. And I'd prefer to have it before I disclose why. And if people would prefer, you can wait until everyone's weighed in and my Lynch is inevitable, but I'd like to weigh in before someone hammers me. Maybe I don't get anything useful out of it, but maybe I do, and if so I'd like to help town out with it.[/quote]

There were quotes there. I only play on phone. Sorry for screwing that up.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Billy–Why do you prefer garmr over me? Is it cos i’ve Been less vocal this game so easier to fight in lylo

Full disclosure, I've never made LYLO as scum.

I feel like low activity slots would be more difficult to fight in LYLO. I wouldn't be able to use normal town indecision and floppiness against them. E.g. I know I'm erratic as town, I try and play scum a bit more cautiously. I'd be able to highlight all the pushes an active player has made against town and all the times they've protected scum. Inactives wouldn't have that, so all I'd be screeching about is your inactivity.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I'm surprised because I think I'm usually an easy target and my reads are weird so I'm usually a liability in LYLO.

Also, I think I had written that before Luca got back, but nonetheless, he's conf!town so I don't need to sort him.

And I think they help me. Me and the scum team know my alignment, but I think that figuring out who other people think are scum when I flip green will help me in saying who I think is scum for tomorrow.

Why wouldn’t you want the conf!towns opinion?

The questions are meant to help you out? In what way? & what are you going to do with the information?

Yes, they're meant to help me out. And

I'd prefer to have it before I disclose why.

And if people would prefer, you can wait until everyone's weighed in and my Lynch is inevitable, but I'd like to weigh in before someone hammers me. Maybe I don't get anything useful out of it, but maybe I do, and if so I'd like to help town out with it.

There were quotes there. I only play on phone. Sorry for screwing that up.[/quote]


I dont get what you’re saying in the bolded part[/quote]

I'm saying that I would like people's number 2 scum reads before I say why I want them. The rest of it explained that I'm comfortable waiting for the rope before that happens, but I'd like it before the hammer.

Pedit: I don't mind his opinion, but it doesn't factor into why I want them.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I haven’t read skellen full iso but I’ve read enough to where i think i can clear her.

@skellen~ I might still want to question you a bit.

Like, how many games have you & billy played together?

This is the first game I started playing with her. Another game [redacted] is ongoing.

Reminder that any discussion of other ongoing games is against site rules.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Billy–

Why do you prefer garmr over me?

Is it cos i’ve Been less vocal this game so easier to fight in lylo

Full disclosure, I've never made LYLO as scum.

I feel like low activity slots would be more difficult to fight in LYLO. I wouldn't be able to use normal town indecision and floppiness against them. E.g. I know I'm erratic as town, I try and play scum a bit more cautiously. I'd be able to highlight all the pushes an active player has made against town and all the times they've protected scum. Inactives wouldn't have that, so all I'd be screeching about is your inactivity.

There’s stilll the main part of that question that didn’t get answered

I think Garmr is sophisticated enough to have done the thing that on its surface looks less scummy, butnue had all night to assess who the better target was. He came out the gate voting me rather than waiting around to see where he could get a mis-lynch. That fits with his CC of Kraeg but later unvoting him.

I don't think the gamestate makes sense where we have 2 low activity scum. And that would be what we have if it's you and Kraeg. And I think Skellen is town. So if the pool is between you and Garmr then I think the game state makes more sense with Garmr as the partner. And then I'd Lynch you before Skellen. Like i said, if Skellen is scum, well played, I couldn't really get there. So I'm reading Garmr scum for how he played. If you're scummy it's just because you haven't played.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Looks like I'm getting lynched. I hope the other scum is Flippy, but his answer to my question, along with Skellen and the fact that Garmr didn't ever answer those questions makes me think it's Garmr. Also, Garmr's been shading me quite a bit today, saying I'm in survival mode, saying that I should have built my case from POE (which I did. I excluded Luca and Skellen off the bat then was deciding between him and Flippy. Luca's suspicion is correct, I'm gonna flip Green, and if scum isn't in Flippy then we lost.

Can someone hammer me? If I'm going down, no need to draw this out. I kinda wanna figure out who the last scum is, so I really hope Jackall will spoil it for me.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I’ve got a feeling Billy is flipping Town to be honest, but hope I’m wrong.

If Garmr or Skellen are scum then it’s probably game over at this point as Flippy is getting lynched Tomorrow.

You're conf!town. Maybe you should make Flippy commit to a read on me one way or the other and decide whether he wants to hammer.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Looks like I'm getting lynched. I hope the other scum is Flippy, but his answer to my question, along with Skellen and the fact that Garmr didn't ever answer those questions makes me think it's Garmr. Also, Garmr's been shading me quite a bit today, saying I'm in survival mode, saying that I should have built my case from POE (which I did. I excluded Luca and Skellen off the bat then was deciding between him and Flippy. Luca's suspicion is correct, I'm gonna flip Green, and if scum isn't in Flippy then we lost.

Can someone hammer me? If I'm going down, no need to draw this out. I kinda wanna figure out who the last scum is, so I really hope Jackall will spoil it for me.

Why not hammer yourself and end the game I'm getting bored of this.

Because I'm town, and I'm not Mohab and going to self-hammer. So am I shooting for survivalism or am I going to self-hammer. I am 50/50 on you and Flippy, and I'm gonna be real mad if it's you because I know I'm dying today and I'm pretty sure it's Flippy tomorrow, but I really think town is making a mistake here.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I'm a vanilla townie, just like I had said during mass claim. Good luck folks. I hope whoever is scum gets caught tomorrow.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Skellen well played. Your response to me pointing out that Kraeg never shaded you coupled with the fact that Profii had the same issue made me leave you too quickly. But your answer reassured me enough to leave you alone. Well done.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Thanks guys!

Good catch Billy, that damning nullread was exactly the one thing that made me really worried, it was difficult to come with something up to shoot that down without looking sneaky.

Still don't understand the setup though. But well, at least it worked.

When I read the mafia pt then I had caught it, then realized how easily I left it, I had a good facepalm there. I need to get better.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Also thanks for modding, Jackal. It was well done.

I liked that you were always updating the current vc in the op.

+1 to this. Your modding was on time and your vcs were great. The only mod I've enjoyed more was teacher because he hyperlinked to the post where the person voted. But this was good. How many times have you modded before?