Mini 2097 - Make Me Regret This Game Over

[mastina]

Hi I am a mason with…
…Hmm, who do I claim…
First name I see is…
…

…Hi, I am a mason with Adorable.
VOTE: Elements

[mastina]

VOTE: EP

I didn't know that Errant still played mafia, and in this game of all games no less!

[mastina]

VOTE: EP

I didn't know that Errant still played mafia, and in this game of all games no less!

Alas, I am not Errant.

Joke.


Head.

[mastina]

Hi I am a mason with…
…Hmm, who do I claim…
First name I see is…
…

…Hi, I am a mason with Adorable.
VOTE: Elements

Why are you claiming mason this early?

Because I thought it'd be

cute

.

[mastina]

I mean, I got exactly what I was thinking I'd get by submitting it, so... if I can predict it ahead of time, then odds are others can too.
Plus, I actually regret submitting it because my role genuinely sucks, but dying is somehow even worse.

I also got exactly what I thought would be the role for my item; the only surprise to be had is that I got the role based off of my third pick rather than first or second.

But yeah, I literally can't think of any other possible role for my third pick other than exactly what I received.

[mastina]

I also have information that Mastina's claim might have some truth behind it, therefore I'm asking why.

Do tell, as I am not gonna idly accept this otherwise.

[mastina]

I'm also full-claiming now to save time down the road:
I'm a Flagbearing Indecisive Conditional Self-Excluding Neighborhood Crafter.

Apart from my flagbearing ability, each night before day starts, I submit two names to create a neighborhood between.
I can't submit the same pairing twice, until two phases later, (D1 > D4)
If there's an odd number of players, I'm automatically excluded from submitting myself.

While I love the idea of being neighborized…
…PRETTY sure that's a scum role.

[mastina]

You’re familiar with my meta so you know I’ve played with EP, mastina, momo, TD, and elements before. At least the least, I’d expect you to remember if played with at least one of them. Why would you think I would work better with eth0s than with someone I have existing meta with and an idea of their playstyle?

Basically this.

I've never heard of Adorable before, and Adorable's lack of neighborhood engagement is literally half the reason that I am so disengaged from this game.

There were much, much better options available.

[mastina]

Speed dating

Can confirm, is the title of our fairly barren neighborhood.

[mastina]

You and eth0s are the only people I've actually played mafia with. I remember both of your playstyles being similar so I felt like it'd work out well between you two.
Elements and Elbirn were just because their names started with El, and I couldn't think of anything better.
I have no information about Shepard and jjh, so I paired them together.
TL and momo I have no information about (regarding mafia), so I paired them together.
Mastina and Adorable were paired because IMO, Mastina was a wildcard and could reasonably be paired with anyone.
Espresso and Tiph were literal RNG

This smells of bullshit.

[mastina]

I would like mastina to comment too. Is she due a poke yet

@mod?

mastina is disengaged.
You know why?
Because she is scumreading almost the entirety of the playerlist.

So either the number of noncursed objects can be counted on a single hand, or I have too many scum reads.

I don't know which of the two it is, but personally, given my read accuracy, I dunno about you but I favor the "number of noncursed objects can be counted on one hand" theory because clearly my scumreads can't be wrong.

[mastina]

"Korina flubbed his role claim" does not equal "Korina is confirmed scum"

Even then powerlynching Korina is a bad move, and I wouldn't be surprised you're scum jjh....

VOTE: jjh927

VOTE: Korina
Would also vote TL for this.

[mastina]

I feel like you can figure that one out.


Also that is not a confirmed mason pair
Mastina claiming masons is a meme

To be honest the reason it took until basically this page for my scumread of you to be reversed is up until now your lack of commentary on the subject.

Speaking of which: my only other townread is Adorable, who I think might've legit townslipped.

Everyone else is varying degrees of scum, with Korina as scum of scums and TL the obvious partner. Can see almost anyone right now as the third.

[mastina]

You're caught scum trying to claim you were doing slayers

Pretty much, yeah.

BTW, will be busy with closing duties for rest of shift, so this is my last phoneposting of the night. Probably won't post once home from work, but I will give this thread attention tomorrow. (Probs once more while at work.)

[mastina]

As promised (well technically don't clock in for half an hour, but am AT work), here and resuming catch up on phone.

[mastina]

Oh, my argument about not using the word gambit was weak af until your contrived defence

Pretty much, yeah. Your original point might've had merit but was admittedly self evidently weak--yet Korina trying to defend against the point was far, far more damning evidence than the original point ever could've been prior to said defense.

[mastina]

I'm not quite on board with L-A-L, but I'm pretty damn close, and this entire situation is FUBAR.

VOTE: Korina

I'll deal with the lich tomorrow.

Admittedly goes down the rabbit hole a bit, of Korina being scum of scums, TL being a likely partner, and your push on TL, but fuckit, I desperately need the extra townreads so sure, via that train of logic, gonna call you town.

[mastina]

You've sure been refraining from scumreading Korina a lot, haven't you TL

Because they're scumbuddies, natch.

[mastina]

Also, here's a list of games where I played poorly. Compare them to this game, and tell me if you notice any major differences between them, (apart from the obvious flagbearer claim)
1, 2, 3

Y'know what? Fine.
VOTE: Korina

I'm town.

Big brain idea here, check it:

Maybe instead of playing like actual dog shit and saying it's just how you play

You could be better

In the likely event of Korina being scum, this is probably town.
In the unlikely event that Korina is somehow actually town tho, would be inclined to think that this is scum.

Basically, this post makes me think that Elbirn is whichever alignment that Korina is not. And since I am generally assuming that Korina is scum…

[mastina]

We’re doing jjh tomorrow just so we’re clear

You'll have to night kill me first, mate.

Regardless of Korina's alignment, jjh is town here. This is his town game.

Doubly so in the inevitable scumflip we have incoming.

I'm never lynching jjh and I will hard resist any effort you make on that front.

[mastina]

Hey Menalque, aren't you supposed to be better at the game than this

Or have I just made that up

Not particularly.

I mean, I said that he'd have to nk me which would make you think that he's a scumread--he loosely is, but no more than 80% of the player list. In fact, of them, he's one of the closest to null, which in this game is closest to town.

[mastina]

JJH, JUST ANSWER THE FUCKING QUESTION
WHAT HAPPENS WHEN I FLIP TOWN?

Night 1 begins, I go "huh", go to any lengths required to avoid playing with you again, and I don't think anyone other than menalque listens to your reads because while I believe you've played an abysmal scumgame, if you flip town you have somehow managed to play an even worse towngame

Pretty much, yeah!

[mastina]

My TL scumread does mostly hinge on Korina!scum fwiw

Mine doesn't, but then again, the number of town reads I have can be counted on one hand. (The full list: you, Adorable, TD, Elbirn-if-Korinascum, momo.)

[mastina]

Are you seriously doing your catchup thing now

Yep!

I was disengaged.

When I am disengaged, sometimes I just go, fuckit, I'll phonepost, because I usually use phoneposting to help me get content in games I would otherwise be unable to give content in.

Said lack of engagement is why I needed to phonepost, but now that I am actually in a position where I have some semblance of investment in the game, I don't need it anymore, but this lack of needing it exists only as of today.

Of course.

Now that I know that there's been a hammer.
Need to phonepost anyway, but only due to trying to beat the mod.

[mastina]

I know you're reading this on the pedits

I have pedits disabled mate.

There's a board preference option for it.

Mind you, it be buggy, often displaying them in spite of the disabling, but in theory? Nope! I should never see them.

[mastina]

HAHAHA I just realized we are missing an entire slot. And I'm not even talking about Mastina. Go check the first post. jesus fucking christ

Yeah, that would be why momo is a townread.

Gamma didn't notice that momo was absent. If momo was scum, then his scumbuddies would've told the mod about his absence, asking for him to be replaced. Gamma not having done so is evidence that momo is probably lacking said scumbuddies.

[mastina]

yeah like elbirn and jjh know that she has obviously been keeping up with the game. So that actually gives me some glimmer of hope for the playerbase in this game

I did not.

I did read the first three or so pages. Maybe five? Okay, not read, but at least an initial skim.

But that was it.

Nothing past that point I was aware of until just now.

[mastina]

even if you're right I won't be able to accept it given the fact that she just "coincidentally" waltzes in here an hour after the hammer

I was on mafiascum until 2:10; my last post said that I was leaving for work.
I left at 2:30.
Clocked in with seconds to spare at 2:59.
Guarded for an hour, then due to working a six hour shift, clocked out to eat lunch.
During this time, I posted in the pt with Adorable, at 4:29.
Clocked back in, guarded for half an hour, then started catching up here.

So yes.

[mastina]

well she just admitted that she has been checking the neighborhood thread so idk I'm not convinced. either that or she's being a hypocrite and also hasn't been engaging in their PT at all. but even still she would have to be checking it to say that about adorable.

I usually check pts even when not posting in games.

However, right now I utterly lack any to read. My Adorable pt is literally, sitewide, my only current pt, and Adorable posted in there, once, days after the game began, saying nothing but "I'm here!"

Kinda hard for me to engage with that, and my 4:29 post said as much, basically stating:
"If you joked with me, this'd be easy.
If you engaged me seriously, then this'd be easy.
But since you've done neither, kinda hard for me to get in the game", more or less. Can give a better paraphrase when not rushed for time, but yes--I didn't make much use of the pt, but my lack of use of it is specifically because Adorable didn't make much use of it.

I need some sort of footing to make use of a pt. Grounding in the game (which I lacked) could make me ramble in the pt even lacking a partner.
Grounding in the pt from my partner beit via joking or serious engagement would've gotten me posting there, too, even if not in here.

But I got none of those, so it went unused.

I am, by my very nature, a reactive player.

Give me nothing to react to, and I shut down.

[mastina]

Oh, Shepherd was a backup of my role pretty sure. I probably shouldn't say what said role is but I'm like 95% certain knowing what my flavor is that Shepherd's role is tied to mine.

VOTE: Elements
Would also vote Espresso or Elbirn; these three are reads where Adorable and I seem to have some overlap. (TL is still a personal scumread of mine but Adorable has a townread there, so.)

[mastina]

Oh, Shepherd was a backup of my role pretty sure. I probably shouldn't say what said role is but I'm like 95% certain knowing what my flavor is that Shepherd's role is tied to mine.
VOTE: Elements
Would also vote Espresso or Elbirn; these three are reads where Adorable and I seem to have some overlap. (TL is still a personal scumread of mine but Adorable has a townread there, so.)

He claimed his info in our pt fwiw
I also knew it was deb

Then if my guess is right you probably know what liquid my object involves. (Well, there's a chance that this info isn't in that role so maybe not but oh well, can always hope.)

[mastina]

Mastina you have the best GTKAS page but it’s gonna take me literally days to get through it all I think

Oh right, meant to get to this before. Menalque, if you think that's daunting, just try and read my blog some time.

It is a (theoretically) daily blog, which has been going since mid October of 2014 (so, we're coming up on the fifth anniversary of my blog). To this day, I've never seen anyone successfully bingeread the entire blog from start to finish. Heck, even *I* have tried, and I failed like...a year or so of the way in, it's just so damn long that I don't think it's humanly possible for anyone to commit to reading it start to finish. They'll start, think they can do it, then peter out like a few months later having not even gotten half-way through in part because in order to catch up since the blog is being written every day (unless I forget or am indisposed) and can have multiple entries for a single day, they'd have to read like...oh, I dunno, like...seven entries every single day, minimum, to stand so much of a chance of reading it start to finish.

Is literally the best way to get to know me tho because I go into my thoughts a LOT on there.

On that note, got some material from the PT, not much but some. To keep this post skippable as a fluffpost tho, will save it for next post.

[mastina]

Things I wanted to say yesterday but couldn't due to the threadlock which remain vaguely relevant:

We’re doing jjh tomorrow just so we’re clear

You'll have to night kill me first, mate.

Regardless of Korina's alignment, jjh is town here. This is his town game.

Doubly so in the inevitable scumflip we have incoming.

I'm never lynching jjh and

I will hard resist any effort you make on that front.

You’d have to have a presence in the thread to do that mastina

Tbf I’m not sure about jjh scum now, waiting on the flip. I do think that his progression during his interaction with me was a little odd (could be pocketing?) and that his push on kori was bad assuming kori!town, which again, is the only normal thing I think to do here in twilight

Thread presence will exist tomorrow.

The only reason it didn't exist today has been remedied, so.

I think you should be TRing me based on meta

Also you town read momo?

You're close to being a townread, but aren't there for a couple of reasons. I want to explain, but am short on time. I'll do it tomorrow if I live.

jjh
Adorable
momo
TD

Menalque

ethos

Espresso/Elements (I think one, but not both, of them are scum, but I can't tell which)

Elbirn

TL

This is about where I am at readswise.

[mastina]

One of Menalque/EP prob scum here, every time I unvote TL I hate myself though .

Yeah, that would be EP. Go and look at his ISO. Go look at mine. Come back. Vote for him.

Honestly?

Sure, why not.

VOTE: EspressoPatronum.

[mastina]

Oh good you're going to actually play instead of just pretending you are

Mostly, yeah.
I mean right now there's not much for me to play with, because most of the town is more or less on the same page, thinking there's probably 1-3 (average opinion of 2, thinking it's not all three, with some thinking it's only one and some thinking it's all three but most agreeing it's probably 2) scum in {Elements, Elbirn, EspressoPatronum}.

I agree with that assessment.

So I don't really have a need to push much right now because there's not a big fight I think is TvT (the worst I've seen is skirmishes) and there's not a big wagon on someone I think is town and there is a reasonable wagon on someone I think is scum, so to be honest my engagement right now isn't at the highest possible level but that's mostly because frankly it just doesn't need to be, right now.

It'll be higher when it's required tho, can guarantee that.

[mastina]

Also putting me as a nullread

Who said you were null?

You're above null.

it sounds like she just wants to coast by.

Oh I don't want to coast by, I just find it hard to see how I can do anything but coast by when my reads are universally basically the group consensus reads but as Adorable can attest I had said reads before I knew they were the group consensus reads, so.

That's a pretty decent place in the EP wagon for scum to jump in and she did it anyway when she has 2 people she finds scummier than EP. One of them being you (Elbirn) who actually appears to have a decent chance at being lynched.

The Espresso wagon is larger and is still a scumread. Why wouldn't I vote a scumread who has a larger wagon? Would you prefer me vanity vote a scumread? It's being pragmatic.

Where did your TL scumread go

It didn't go anywhere, but it happens to be a scumread Adorable disagrees with--my scumreads on the three Es, however, are reads Adorable is more or less all onboard with, so.

It's you looking at three names and saying "one or all of these are scum", an exercise which can be performed with any three names drawn from a hat and have about the same meaning.

Wrong.
It's saying that I, very specifically, believe that the group of {Elbirn, Elements, Espresso} contains two scum, no more no less, with one scum (most likely TL) outside of the grouping.
This stance is a group consensus stance.
Some people think that there's only one scum in the three;
Some people think that all three are scum.
But MOST people think that two, and exactly two, players in that group of three are scum and I happen to be among them.

[mastina]

I'll do it tomorrow if I live.

Implies that she thinks there's a chance of a lynch happening before she returns, so her jumping on the most popular wagon of the day does not come across to me as "pressure" at all.

That was copy pasted from my PT and I said as much; it was typed immediately after the Korina lynch but prior to the end of night.

but yeah I concede that the intent to vote is way too standoffish and scum-motivated

if you want to vote out jjh I will be on your side.

ummm

Feels good to have called the Chemist slot town before it was even Chemist's.

Butyeah at this stage would vote any of {TL, Espresso, Elements}.
While Elbirn could still be scum I'm willing to buy jjh's defense there for now.

[mastina]

She wasn't prodded even though she didn't post for 76 hours. Emerald saying in 430 that prods would be sent "soon if needed" tells me that, for all we know, mastina and momo both could have been posting in PTs and not being prodded for that reason.

Um.
I explicitly was posting, yes.
I posted twice in my Adorable PT between my initial entrance into the game and my reemergence post-Korina-hammer.

This isn't some big secret; I already explicitly told you this?

I called her out for repeating what others have been saying and jumping onto a wagon with little/no reasoning when she has

2

people she claims to be scumreading harder.

There's three scum in the game, mate. Why, exactly, is voting your third-strongest scumread who has a wagon when your strongest scumread doesn't, a bad thing?

[mastina]

I am going to QUICKHAMMER TL if he gets to L-1 at any point in Day 2

Can we make this happen please?

I wanna make it happen.

[mastina]

She wasn't prodded even though she didn't post for 76 hours. Emerald saying in 430 that prods would be sent "soon if needed" tells me that, for all we know, mastina and momo both could have been posting in PTs and not being prodded for that reason.

Um.
I explicitly was posting, yes.
I posted twice in my Adorable PT between my initial entrance into the game and my reemergence post-Korina-hammer.

This isn't some big secret; I already explicitly told you this?

Maybe I haven't conveyed this thought clearly then but why, if this is true, do you consider momo being conftown when he could have not been prodded due to PT activity? Clearly there could have been some kind of mixture of that and then the mod IRL stuff that appears to have effected him later in Day one so I'm just saying giving momo/chemist a free pass seems unwise at this point. Personally I am expecting some content from that slot soon before I stop being so passive aggressive about it.

Because I have knowledge about momo which you lack.

I was in the game where momo declared that he was leaving the site, outright abandoning his game midway through (well, sort of; he said he'd leave it to his backup mod).

That happened at least a full week before role PMS were sent this game, so I know for a fact that momo never even received his role pm, something that his name being unbolded when every other players' names were bolded confirms.

Ergo, I know that he didn't post in any pts because he left the site before he could have possibly posted in a pt.

[mastina]

Mastina why do you think jjh is town? I know you said something about this being his towngame yesterda, what has he done today that is still town?

Everything?

The question isn't what has he done which is town; the question is what he's done which HASN'T been town.

[mastina]

Mastina why do you think jjh is town? I know you said something about this being his towngame yesterda, what has he done today that is still town?

Everything?

The question isn't what has he done which is town; the question is what he's done which HASN'T been town.

Okay, let’s go with “diverting the pressure on EP away onto a slot that could be scum but is also very much mislynch bait meaning town is going to make a big fuss over it or if scum think they can get away with it possibly just be rapid lynched”

Why is that towny?

Well for a start. Every slot this game is mislynch bait; the very argument that you're using against jjh could be applied to those who're pushing the ep lynch;
They are diverting the pressure off of X, onto a slot that could be scum but is also very much mislynch bait.

In other words, I don't put any stock in that angle.

[mastina]

He takes the time to engage with the post, but only

after

day has ended and we're in twilight, in 537. aka, he's trying to distance himself from the mislynch by explaining why he wasn't persuaded by the post.

That is a towntell not a scumtell.

but if you're town, why not engage the arguments first while events are still in motion?

I don't buy the argument of suspicious timing and fully believe jjh was going to argue those points regardless of Korina's status at the time jjh argued them; jjh had no way of knowing Korina would self-hammer (as town no less) before he could make them.

Same reason why my popping up an hour after Korina was lynched wasn't scum indicative; sometimes, people just have timing that by bad coincidence just so happens to look sketchy when it's more reflective of their real life rather than of any in-game agenda.

kori literally having been lynched and saying he's town i.e. erasure of the incentive to lie.

I actually gave a counter to this in my PT with Adorable, which I didn't post because it was something I typed before Korina was lynched that became irrelevant once Korina flipped town--
There absolutely WAS incentive for Korina to lie.
What was it?
This.

@mastina, why do you think kori!scum bothers posting here in twilight when it hasn’t really interfered with us talking about things? Like the whole conversation has been too cogent for me to think that’s more likely than kori!town emotionally self-hammering and then trying to cause chaos in twilight, plus the fact that, again, if he flips scum it’s very easy to just disregard everything he’s said here as WIFOM

Korina answered this for you, in 680: (to) seed chaos.

Sounds pretty much exactly like what he actually did to me!

...And that remains true. Korina had incentive to lie to seed chaos and Korina's post-hammer behavior to me looked like he was doing precisely that.

If I thought as much, jjh easily could have, too.

"I don't understand how any sane person could actually townread Korina right now".

And given Korina's play, that is a stance any sane player would take and was in fact my own take as well--why're you scumreading jjh for taking that stance and not me when I had literally the same mindset as jjh?

SoaS is a weird kill. But he's a perfectly logical kill for scum!jjh because that lets him entirely control the narrative of what happened in the PT with SoaS.

This is the logic players use to mislynch slots who should be locktown because they would never nightkill the player in their PT. See also, the game-losing mislynch I suffered in MBoS 4 where I quite correctly argued I wouldn't have killed the player in the PT with me, yet the scum argued that "mastina killed them so that she could control the narrative of it".

So sorry. Don't buy that logic and never will because it's never actually accurate; scum don't do this, but they sure mislynch town a lot by using this logic!

[mastina]

I really think Menalque's case in 995 is compelling.

And I really think you're scum showing flagrant blatant opportunism by hopping onto a shitty case that is easy to latch onto but which when analyzed utterly falls apart.

[mastina]

VOTE: jjh

The scumteam is literally just EspressoPatronum, TemporalLich, and probably Elements here. (Darkhorse Elbirn but Elbirn's scumread can at least plausibly come from town.)

[mastina]

How does EP make both of these posts

By having a scum alignment, natch.

[mastina]

I don't like the progression of this wagon on jjh
It seems to have gone from a tinfoil into a full-on thing in a weird way

Because scum have a nifty scapegoat in the form of Menalque to latch onto and with him spearheading it they could blatantly latch onto the wagon and go "hey we might be able to push this through".

[mastina]

I'd like to know if I'm a counterwagon to something at which point we also discover that TL was not considered a viable counterwagon

You were a counterwagon to both EspressoPatronum and TemporalLich, the only other two wagons with real momentum.

I mean, outside chance of Elbirn/Elements as both of them HAD wagons, but none with the same support as those two.

[mastina]

But then at the same time Mena has arguably been my highest TR the whole game.

Being town does not equal being accurate with your suspicions.

Menalque is town.

Menalque's scumread on jjh could not be more wrong.

Menalque's scumread on jjh being absolutely wrong does not magically make Menalque any less town--for the same reasons that jjh's scumread on Korina ending up being wrong did not magically make jjh any less town.

In fact let me put this to Menalque directly.

Menalque: do you realize that if jjh were lynched today and flipped town, the very case you used against him would then be applicable to YOUR actions D2?

Think about that for a second and then realize what that means.

[mastina]

Am I right in thinking that the lynchpool for most people today is something like (EP, elbirn, TL, ele)? Could we try to narrow that down to 2 candidates so that we have a choice but it’s clearer what everyone’s defined stances are

Sure.
EP ~= TL > Elements > Elbirn.

[mastina]

Oh because shes a bullshitter

I mean, I am, but.
1: Haven't really bullshitted this game to my memory outside of the transparent mason semi-joke claim.
2: Bullshitting's a towntell of mine since scumastina doesn't lie, so.

[mastina]

Why do you townread mastina? On what grounds my dude?

I mean, fair chance TL's townread comes from him being scum but if you're arguing that I must have a reason to be town in order to not be scum, you're running afoul of a fallacy mfriend.

[mastina]

Kinda giving me jeebies how elbirn got on it tho

To be honest I'm of two minds there.
Some of what Elbirn posts makes me think "actually that mindset while obviously not very protown looks like it came from town", other parts of me think "there's no way that this forced aggression from Elbirn is naturally occurring and it looks like scum faking bravado", so. Am ambivalent there. Sometimes he's making me think he's way too low on my lynch list; other times he's making me think that he shouldn't be on it.

[mastina]

Martina, are you town?

Yes, but the real question would be are you? Sure doesn't seem that way to me.

[mastina]

I don't see how elements being an inaccurate bloodhound is a fakeclaim...
it's a strong town power role, though it is a percentage role...

I've no desire to spare Elements off of his claim.

[mastina]

The only reason I'm not voting Elements right now is that I am aware it would be the hammer vote and I imagine there would be people dissatisfied with the day ending so abruptly.

[mastina]

Umm also deb's info was that there was at least one role in the game that had to do with water.

My role also has to do with water; I'm a 2-liter water bottle. My ability is rather different from TD's tho.

[mastina]

Okay if we pretend you’re town then go find me the actual scum

Sure.
Two of {Elbirn, EspressoSlot, TL}.
Elements was a scumread yesterday; Elements flipping scum did nothing to change the POE pool. The same four slots still contain all three scum.

VOTE: TemporalLich

[mastina]

That was such a WIFOMy fucking kill, my god

Probably implies 1 of (elbirn, mastina)

> "That was such a wifom kill"
>"Might mean mastina's scum"
> Trolololol.

(I don't make wifom kills.)

[mastina]

Mastina I want to know where your head is at as well.

My head is at the spot where I can show you where jjh took an identical stance defending scum based on scum trueclaiming because I was the scum trueclaiming and jjh townread me that game for the same reasons he defended Elements this game and that the push on him is thus bullshit.

[mastina]

Eth0s are you finding it weird that neither of us is dead?

That would be because you're pushing a jjh mislynch.
Yeah you're obvtown but if you're pushing to mislynch town, doesn't matter how obvtown you are, you're still helping scum.

[mastina]

Elbirn I think mastina is a bad shout for today while chem is softlcearing jjh and there’s good odds of scum in suji/TL

Especially considering I scumread Elements the whole fucking game and that Suji/TL are 2/3 of my remaining scumreads, yeah.

Your options are I'm bussing my whole scumteam or I'm town, so.

[mastina]

I kinda think the NK was either off us bc scum was worried we might have a protective or it was because I think we’ve been p cohesive and they’re trying to play off paranoia around that

What if I told you I knew who the protective role in this setup was and that they are someone who I know to be town?

[mastina]

Mastina- elements' flip points to there being a traitor and/or a a third party. Does this not concern you anywhere

Well for a start your conclusion isn't one which I really agree with since nothing about scum having a sane cop implies traitor and I was the mod who literally invented the concept of giving scum a sane cop in otherwise normal setups and I know that Gamma can and has taken inspiration from games I've run so I don't really buy into the theory anyway.

But even if it was due to a traitor or 3p. Why would I care? Doesn't change scumhunting. I'll look at traitor crumbs if and only if we have a mafia traitor flip, until then it's a waste of time, chasing what's likely a red herring, and removes from actual scumhunting. If a traitor exists, they should still look like scum by play; if a traitor exists, groupscum should still look like scum by play. So we scumhunt and try to lynch the people who look like scum by play.

[mastina]

Mastina I’m like 80-90% sure that I read something in the Mastin Academy where you talk explicitly about being a player who heavily plays th the WIFOM game

Go read that article again since you apparently need a heavy refresher about what that article was discussing. It was about townplay not scumplay.

[mastina]

I still haven't figured out whether the way mastina talks about her scumgame is AI

Oh absolutely it is, though even I wouldn't really be able to tell you the difference. There's lots of nuances involved. Mood, free time, game environment, all play a part in determining the nature of the talk. If the talk is more out of boredom, then it's probably NAI. Where I'm addressing it because I might as well, I have no reason not to, it's a post to make a post. If the talk is meant to make a point on offense, where I more or less explain what scumastina is and why the point X is making is a misrep because of reason Y (more or less, it's hard to describe but really easy to show examples of), then it's town-indicative; if the talk is meant to defend myself and dissuade a wagon on me, it's not

inherently

scum-indicative, depending on mood and game environment; if I am ticked off, really want to fucking live, feel like there's damn fucking good reason I should live, and am fighting no holds barred, then it's also from town; if I'm calm, not ticked off, and yet am making that defense, it's probably scum-indicative. Again, very hard to

describe

the difference, but ridiculously easy to

show

.

[mastina]

why would elements claim a no result on jjh instead of a guilty?

If Elements legitimately got a no result, then claiming anything other than that would be risky.
Targeting jjh is likely indicative of jjh being town btw since scum aren't exactly going to target their scumbuddy with a sane cop.

Why would soas get shot? Why would TD get shot?

Because they were players who weren't going to push heavily for mislynches yet were players who weren't going to get lynched.

[mastina]

What I'm kinda interested in RN is what Mastina is seeing different here than my D1 in Krazy's anime upick

I mean.
Your D1 in Krazy's Anime UPick was the closest to your towngame but even then this is just a different jjh altogether.

[mastina]

My main concern is that if we mislynch TL today and scum has some sort of damage and they kill jjh + idk who
Then imo we’re in a really bad mylo tomorrow

Easy solution. The protective protects jjh and bam. jjh doesn't die. That simple.

[mastina]

Your options are I'm bussing my whole scumteam or I'm town, so.

I mean I do think you would do that, yes

You claim to have read my academy and yet you think I would double bus?

I call bullshit because I literally wrote the book on why you DON'T bus.

[mastina]

Elements didn't claim a result because he didn't need to distance because he was already being bussed

So adorable,

elbirn or suji

?

Take a guess.

[mastina]

at the risk of potentially outing information I would really like to know if there is a crumb or clue in this post, mastina. Because if not I am either misunderstanding something or I think you might have scumslipped.

Well there's no slip so if you divulge information that you'd rather have kept secret then you're a dummy because I've looked at that post and there's nothing I can see there which I can see as being misinterpreted and yet there's most definitively not a slip and also not any hints. I've hinted at my role elsewhere but that sure wasn't one of them.

[mastina]

then what is the point of someone being informed that there is at least one player with a role that has something to do with water?

DEB was an empty jug, informed that there was at least one player whose role had to do with water, and upon the death of a player whose role had something to do with water, would inherit that role--a Backup role specific to those with a container of water in their role.

TD's role had water in it; mine had water in it; DEB could presumably have inherited either of our roles.

[mastina]

Mastina did somehow figure out what the info was though

I mean when DEB flipped empty jug informed about the existence of x and inheriting the abilities of x when x died...not that hard a conclusion to reach when you're the player with the role DEB's backing up? It's obvious enough. I'm a 2-liter water bottle. DEB was an empty jug. When a 2-liter water bottle dies, DEB as an empty jug could inherit the water from the 2-liter water bottle and thus become a 2-liter water bottle.

[mastina]

I don't understand any of the mastina water stuff and don't care to, someone else figure it out and dumb it down for me later
I don't think I'm getting much out of these conversations and I'd rather find scum based on what elements did this game and how end of day 2 turned out, wish me luck

Okay so while TL's my strongest scumread I'm like 98% sure the third is Elbirn at this point.

[mastina]

I don't understand any of the mastina water stuff and don't care to, someone else figure it out and dumb it down for me later
I don't think I'm getting much out of these conversations and I'd rather find scum based on what elements did this game and how end of day 2 turned out, wish me luck

Okay so while TL's my strongest scumread I'm like 98% sure the third is Elbirn at this point.

Aren’t we lucky that if TL flips scum we’ll have time to do suji first in case you’re right

We sure are, but you'd be stupid for doing so, for two basic reasons:
1: Suji has been contributing reasonable content. This content doesn't inherently come from town, but it does at least look genuine. I'd still lynch Suji so the content isn't enough to reverse the scumread, but this in of itself would be reason enough to vote Elbirn first.

2: But more importantly, Elbirn is guilty of hypocrisy of the highest degree.

Remember when he accused me of coasting by and not scumhunting? Where he said that I was scum because I wasn't contributing content and was being lazy?

I sure do! Now guess what he himself is guilty of, as proven by posts like 1557?

[mastina]

Oh hi mena

I still haven't gleaned anything particularly useful but I continue to believe that suji/TL are bad lynches

Scum (JJH/Mastina) tried to build counterwagons on TL and EP yesterday to save bff elements. They're not scum.

Mastina is grasping at straws and JJ was trying to come up with a reason to scumread me because they have to. They have to insist on the PoV that scum bussed because they're fucked otherwise

Your narrative has a fundamental chronology problem, mate.

The Elements wagon was high nonexistent before the TL/EP wagons. The TL/EP wagons PREDATE the Elements wagon. A fact easily verifiable by checking the VCS.

[mastina]

Too tired for content tonight, will contribute tomorrow.

[mastina]

Longer version: TL/EP were the scumteams only viable mislynches yesterday and when push came to shove jjh was going to bat for elements and trying to wrangle up the EP lynch, where you were conveniently parked all day and then did the same shit as day 1 where you showed up after lynch to shitpost and try to take some credit for it (man I so scumread elements ha ha)

Still runs into a chronology problem mate.

VOTE: Elements

VC 1.1

Elements (2): mastina, Menalque

d1 final vc

Elements (2): mastina, Menalque

VOTE: Elements
Would also vote Espresso or Elbirn; these three are reads where Adorable and I seem to have some overlap. (TL is still a personal scumread of mine but Adorable has a townread there, so.)

Elements (2):

mastina, Adorable

Espresso/Elements (I think one, but not both, of them are scum, but I can't tell which)

Elbirn

TL

This is about where I am at readswise.

I mean right now there's not much for me to play with, because most of the town is more or less on the same page, thinking there's probably 1-3 (average opinion of 2, thinking it's not all three, with some thinking it's only one and some thinking it's all three but most agreeing it's probably 2) scum in {Elements, Elbirn, EspressoPatronum}.

I agree with that assessment.

So I don't really have a need to push much right now because there's not a big fight I think is TvT (the worst I've seen is skirmishes) and there's not a big wagon on someone I think is town and there is a reasonable wagon on someone I think is scum, so to be honest my engagement right now isn't at the highest possible level but that's mostly because frankly it just doesn't need to be, right now.

It'll be higher when it's required tho, can guarantee that.

VC 2.1

EspressoPatronum (4):

Menalque, TiphaineDeath, TemporalLich, mastina

Elements (2):

Adorable, eth0s

TemporalLich (2):

EspressoPatronum, jjh927

That's a pretty decent place in the EP wagon for scum to jump in and she did it anyway when she has 2 people she finds scummier than EP. One of them being you (Elbirn) who actually appears to have a decent chance at being lynched.

The Espresso wagon is larger and is still a scumread. Why wouldn't I vote a scumread who has a larger wagon? Would you prefer me vanity vote a scumread? It's being pragmatic.

Where did your TL scumread go

It didn't go anywhere, but it happens to be a scumread Adorable disagrees with--my scumreads on the three Es, however, are reads Adorable is more or less all onboard with, so.

It's you looking at three names and saying "one or all of these are scum", an exercise which can be performed with any three names drawn from a hat and have about the same meaning.

Wrong.
It's saying that I, very specifically, believe that the group of {Elbirn, Elements, Espresso} contains two scum, no more no less, with one scum (most likely TL) outside of the grouping.
This stance is a group consensus stance.
Some people think that there's only one scum in the three;
Some people think that all three are scum.
But MOST people think that two, and exactly two, players in that group of three are scum and I happen to be among them.

Butyeah at this stage would vote any of {TL, Espresso, Elements}.
While Elbirn could still be scum I'm willing to buy jjh's defense there for now.

VC 2.2

jjh927 (3):

Menalque, TemporalLich, Elbirn

Elements (2):

Adorable, eth0s

Elbirn (2):

TiphaineDeath, Elements

EspressoPatronum (1):

mastina

TemporalLich (1):

jjh927

VOTE: jjh

The scumteam is literally just EspressoPatronum, TemporalLich, and probably Elements here. (Darkhorse Elbirn but Elbirn's scumread can at least plausibly come from town.)

I'd like to know if I'm a counterwagon to something at which point we also discover that TL was not considered a viable counterwagon

You were a counterwagon to both EspressoPatronum and TemporalLich, the only other two wagons with real momentum.

I mean, outside chance of Elbirn/Elements as both of them HAD wagons, but none with the same support as those two.

VC 1.3

Elements (4):

Adorable, eth0s, Elbirn, Menalque

Elbirn (2):

TiphaineDeath, Elements

EspressoPatronum (2):

mastina, jjh927

jjh927 (1):

TemporalLich

Am I right in thinking that the lynchpool for most people today is something like (EP, elbirn, TL, ele)? Could we try to narrow that down to 2 candidates so that we have a choice but it’s clearer what everyone’s defined stances are

Sure.
EP ~= TL > Elements > Elbirn.

Elements was a scumread of mine the entire game.
That's not "after the fact".
That's pure simple fact, shown easily from isoing me.
I voted Elements. Undeniable. The Elements wagon early on was half me--this is a fact. Without my vote, it'd have been a vanity wagon.
I moved off of Elements when his wagon didn't gain traction yet a wagon on another scumread did.
There was a grand total of one opportunity for me to revote Elements--one opportunity. Wed Oct 02, 2019 at 10:27 pm. Elements had four votes then. If your point revolved around that window of opportunity having been missed, your case wouldn't have a chronology issue because I'll be honest. I don't have an answer for why I didn't vote Elements there. I should've, I don't know why I didn't, but I didn't so I can't defend against it, can't pretend I did. Heck I don't really have any clue why I didn't. I can guess, that my posts being basically prod-dodging that I wasn't thinking, but my best guess was that I didn't see a VC at the time yet schadd's posts doesn't have an edit stamp meaning that there was a VC there so I should've seen the votes and known so that can't be it meaning my leading theory is that I saw the vc but didn't process it as "oh Elements can be voted".
BUT I DIGRESS.

My point is--your story doesn't hold up to the actual game facts because what you're saying happened, didn't.

[mastina]

A Town Inventor (Rolecop, Doctor, Roleblocker)

We can all tell that this is a scumclaim yes, right?
I don't need to explain why it is one, yes?

[mastina]

if you want to not flip a town inventor today I suggest we vote Elbirn because Elbirn is just scummy
VOTE: Elbirn

[mastina]

D i s t a n c i n g

I mean technically speaking it's only distancing if they unvote.

[mastina]

Mastina has contributed literally nothing to this game

To the contrary.
I've been doing plenty.

if she isn't shes proven she gives zero fucks about this game.

I'll give a fuck when I have reason to.

When we're lynching the person I want to lynch, I have no reason to give more than what I have.

[mastina]

Lol I’m actually thinking that TL was the designated mislynch and it’s just (suji, elbirn) now
Chem/jjh/Eth0s/mastina hmu when you see this

If TL is town this game he's Korina levels of terrible.

I'll take that risk with the lynch thankyouverymuch.

[mastina]

VOTE: jjh
better vote than elbirn despite elbirn being an openwolf

And there you have it; it was indeed D i s t a n c i n g.

[mastina]

I am against a massclaim right now. There's a lot of shit going on and a lot of night actions to wonder about but I'm thinking that would help scum more at the moment. At least from my understanding a mass claim hurts town when we are this far from lylo (based on the assumption of 3 scum)

So then why are you pushing for the lynch of a player who is unclaimed and who if claiming would push us closer to scum knowing the setup when we have a player who is fullclaimed, has used their role fully, and is probably scum?

[mastina]

mastina outed her own water thing pretty quickly.

I hinted at it on D1 in fact!

Fun fact, a 2-liter water bottle is one of my six objects of power, and as I said on D1, was my third pick. My first two are two of the other six objects of power.

[mastina]

Elements was a scumread of mine the entire game.

You never voted them when they were in danger of a lynch, and you didn't push for it much at all. You even say that you should have but didn't. You were voting me over Elements at end of the day yesterday, and Elements had moved below me and TL in your scum list.
That is undeniable.

It is also undeniable that Elements was lynched when I wasn't around in this game (maybe even on site, would have to check my activity sitewide to confirm that one).

[mastina]

A Town Inventor (Rolecop, Doctor, Roleblocker)

We can all tell that this is a scumclaim yes, right?
I don't need to explain why it is one, yes?

I think I know what you're saying but if so I'm guilty of doing the same thing as town.

That wouldn't be it then.

[mastina]

Was that it?

get used to it. I'll honestly compromise on lynching mastina this phase if she really doesn't expand on that soon because I'm tired of dealing with this. She didn't even address my big post at all

What was there to address?

It was a post of self-evident paranoia. It's moonlogic based on hypotheses that violate occam's razor. I didn't address it because there was nothing in there to address. It was empty spitballing about a theory you had which has no evidence to back it.

[mastina]

And what do you think about the way elbirn has progressed on TL over the phase

I think Elibirn is scum; I think TL is scum; I think TL and Elbirn's progressions on each other is blatantly scumbuddies but even if it wasn't and somehow one of them was town the other would still be scum. But that said. They're just both scum.

[mastina]

When we're lynching the person I want to lynch, I have no reason to give more than what I have.

Didn't you "want to lynch" Elements? We lynched Elements by the way. You didn't really contribute to that.

Yes?

Read what I said again.

When we're lynching the person I want to lynch.
I have no reason to give more than what I have.
We lynched Elements. Someone I wanted to lynch. So why did I need to contribute to it? It was a lynch I wanted.

[mastina]

Lol I’m actually thinking that TL was the designated mislynch and it’s just (suji, elbirn) now
Chem/jjh/Eth0s/mastina hmu when you see this

If TL is town this game he's Korina levels of terrible.

I'll take that risk with the lynch thankyouverymuch.

Wasn't Korina town?

Thus my statement.
If TL were somehow town he'd be Korina levels of bad.

I don't think TL is Korina levels of bad.

[mastina]

Site activity doesn't affect any of my other statements, nor preclude you from taking action if you had a real scum read on them. The fact remains they were a convenient scum read for you, and not one of the two you were pushing.

Look I am a reactive player.
I react to things.
When people are lynching someone I want lynched.
I don't push hard because people are doing what I want them to do.

I said it before and I'll say it again.
If someone who is a townread of mine is in danger of being lynched, sure, yeah. I will put more effort in to defend them. If nobody I'm scumreading has a wagon on them. Then sure, yeah, I will put more effort in to lynching them.

But the whole game.

Neither of those conditions has really come true.
Because the people I want to lynch are being lynched; the people who I don't want lynched aren't being lynched.
Not a hard concept to grasp.

If jjh were in danger of being lynched I'd step up but that hasn't happened and frankly it won't.

[mastina]

strong townplayer hasn’t weighed in

I would like an explanation to this statement, because I have not seen evidence of this in this game, and the most recent contribution is lacking. Have you played together before as town; and, if so, could you link me to a game so that I could review.

I should say that Menalque's perspective of me is somewhat biased by recent experiences that I can't give better commentary on right now, but he'll be vastly disappointed by my play here because he probably doesn't know the golden mastina standard of me having more than one towngame/more than one scumgame based on game atmosphere, real life situations, OTHER GAME'S atmospheres (if I am giving my all to one game, that means other games will be given nothing, but obviously can't really go into that in greater detail without risking it being seen as a violation of the ongoing games discussion rule even though nothing I'd say wouldn't be generic applicable to any situation), my mood, how players interact with me, and a shitload of other factors.

This game for instance--I've no reason, no incentive, to try because the people I want to lynch are being lynched; the people who I don't want to lynch are in no immediate danger.

[mastina]

A Town Inventor (Rolecop, Doctor, Roleblocker)

We can all tell that this is a scumclaim yes, right?
I don't need to explain why it is one, yes?

I think I know what you're saying but if so I'm guilty of doing the same thing as town.

That wouldn't be it then.

then it seems you should explain.

Because this is a scum role. Rolecop is a role which has more utility for scum; Doctor as a way to save players from damage (a mechanic that likely has town damagers) is a scum role; Roleblocker as a way to stop the town's PRs is a scum role; a scum inventor allows for the scum to use those powers in a way that would shut down the town's roles.

jjh's theory was that the Inventor was disloyal, which would prevent the above from being true but still make it a scum role. But it doesn't need to be, if the scum wanted to try and use the role to get towncred from it.

[mastina]

We lynched Elements. Someone I wanted to lynch. So why did I need to contribute to it? It was a lynch I wanted.

Because it's easy to say "I want something," but if you don't do something to try and get it, it's an empty statement and scummy.

Sometimes I forget that players like you are actually probably new.

[mastina]

Not taking a stance is scummy

Mate all I've done is take stances.

My stance has been literally all I've posted:
That {Elements, Elbirn, Espresso, TL} contains all three scum.

I've not given much in the way of reasons.

That's not the same as not giving stances.

You aren't contributing much of anything, despite your claims otherwise.

You say this and yet it's not true. I've contributed plenty. Just because it's light in reasons doesn't mean it's light in content.

[mastina]

That question was decidedly not directed toward you.

That doesn't mean I have no commentary to give, nor does it mean that your question will have any less value by reading it and also Menalque's response.

[mastina]

What sense would it make for scum to have both a bloodhound and an inventor who gives out a rolecop shot?

Incredible amounts?

[mastina]

Modifiers

, not modified

Some sort of passive thing

Korina was Indecisive Conditional Self-Excluding
SoaS was informed and a backup
Elements was imprecise
TD's entire role was a modifier (copscetic)
My modifier is called sensitive

Oh jjh that's not what I thought you meant when talking about modifiers. I thought when you were talking about modifiers, you were talking about extra clauses which COULD have names but didn't necessarily require names. My role has one of those (well kinda sorta). My role doesn't have a named role modifier tho. Nothing like one-shot, odd-night, indecisive, novice, no modifiers like that. It has a limitation to it, but that limitation isn't a modifier, it's more of a clause. So, not every role has a modifier in the sense you're suggesting.

[mastina]

Which I think it actually was, it's just it comes down to Mastina needing to fake being involved with the game to herself until she actually gets involved with the game.

I mean. I told you explicitly on D1. "I am having trouble getting into the game". So. Explicitly so yes.

That does not mean that Elbirn's push in any way comes from town tho. I am a lazy push--an effortless push. Which, given his accusations against me. Is highly hypocritical of him.

[mastina]

I'm not sure how you could read any of her recent posting and think she was town to be quite honest.

I'm not sure how you could read any of my posting and think I wasn't town to be quite honest.

[mastina]

This is the only post by mastina which makes me particularly concerned she might be scum

That was literally the towniest post I made the entire game? Like if you were thinking that post was too town to come from me as town then sure you could have concern of it being a scumastina post but literally that was THE towniest thing I've said all game. Nothing else even remotely compares to the towniness of that post.

[mastina]

Menalque has been saying that mastina is a strong town player. I don't believe that posting comes from someone who is a strong town player. So, either mastina is not a strong town player, or mastina is not town. Mechanics play no role in my determining her alignment despite that I may have reason to believe so given her flavor claim.

I'll give you a hint:
Menalque's opinion of me being a strong town player is an opinion which, to say the least, would be...highly...controversial, to say the least.

[mastina]

If she were to show up in the middle of this discussion and be all caught up, I think we'd probably be able to call the game

Well. 2.5 hours off this comment aint that bad eh.

(For the record. Today was work then dance after that so I only just now got home.)

[mastina]

I guess I don't understand why someone who is truly disengaged continues to play the game. It's not mandatory.

Because I swore an oath to never replace out of a game ever again and that is not an oath I've any intention to break. (I've come close--but only in games which were so fucking toxic that even I the queen of stone thick skin who can stand so much toxicity that I don't really break from it, broke from it. Disengagement? Nahhhh. Not replace-worthy. And I'm fairly good at being active enough to avoid activity-based replacements, albeit often requiring me to post when I would very much rather not be.)

[mastina]

You're dying tonight I don't need your sass

Boy, you'll know me when I get sassy. This ain't even mildly sassed yet.

[mastina]

The inventor is clearly not supposed to increase scum power or he wouldn't have given all his abilities to Chemist

I honestly want to comment on this one but it's gonna start a whole stupid argument that I don't want to get into so how about someone else tells me what's wrong with this post

I tried to analyze this before but my brain broke and I stopped caring

Tldr theres some weird circular logic here where JJ is assuming the intent of the setup design is such that a hypothetical scum inventor is supposed to power up town based on what TL chose to do with the role, but that doesnt logically follow and assumes the alignments of two players as a reason for one of those two being scum

If that made any sense which it didnt

If I were a bad person I'd also throw out some pedantic shit about how "oh he KNOWS chemist is town based on that post" but I'm not so I won't. But I feel like that might be the point you wanted made so there

Yknow what.
Fuckit.
VOTE: Elbirn.
TL is still probably scum, but he's at least putting in the effort to appear otherwise.

Elbirn isn't.

[mastina]

oh yeah, suji, I rate Mastina as a strong town player mostly from interacting with her in pfup and also because her reads have been above average in my experience

I'm having a blank on pfub, what's that an abbreviation of?

[mastina]

Suji, it’s not just one game, that was a lil unclear

It was mostly pfup but also from I Can’t Remember The Name Of This Game which was abandoned and she nailed me as scum early and hard

Plus the fact that she’s written an entire academies worth of resources, and the general high respect for her play that most people seem to have

It should be noted: that high respect is mostly for my scumgame.

I've not rolled scum in almost a full year, but people still remember my multitude of scumgames from 2018 where I was almost always scum, and put in ridiculously strong performances in each of them.

And while 2018 was the year of scumgames with 2019 the year of town games, if you look at 2017, I was just as strong a scum player. 2016, too. In fact, almost every year. There was one year where I wasn't strong as scum post-2012, when I almost siteflaked, but from 2012 onwards I've had a REMARKABLE scumgame. Not always in every game. During Tales of You I bombed a scumgame in a futile effort to put my all into that town game; in the zombie game which preceded L4D, I got steamrolled. But in ALMOST every scumgame from 2012 onwards, I've put in remarkably strong performances, and in 2018 I received a disproportionately large number of scum role PMS to display this versatility.

I am a good scum player.

I am not a good town player.

In PFUP, sure, yeah, I nailed Avengers, but none of my other scumrrads were right.
In momos game, sure, yeah, I caught you and, earlier, caught cyrus…but I flipped my correct read on him to an incorrect one and hard defended him, plus, tw was scum yet I was townreqding him.

I can nail some scum, but the flip side of that is that I often get half my reads wrong.

[mastina]

Also, it should be noted: my academy work is a case of "do as I say, not as I do".

If I followed all of my own advice, I'd be a much stronger town player, but if you read my articles and compared them to my towngames, you'd quickly discover that I ignore a good 65% of my own advice.

That CAN be because the advice is outdated, but usually my articles are fairly timeless, equally applicable to now as they were when written--which means that I SHOULD be following them, but I stupidly ignore them.

Basically. My grasp on mafia theory is as high as it gets, but while I know the theories, I really fucking suck at executing them in reality.

[mastina]

Mastina the day is over and I'm legitimately not playing with you ever again with the way you just openly troll the entire game

It must really frustrate you that in spite of my disengagement this game, that you haven't been able to kill either me or jjh (who I've been protecting the whole game) and that I still get lynches that I like.

[mastina]

In hindsight the fact that his power was super fuckin similar to mine should have been an alarm bell
We claimed in our pt and although he said disloyal jailkeeper I was actually thinking in my head all game that it was roleblocker
And it never occurred to me “hmm, two roleblockers for town is kinda weird actually”

I don't know why Gamma didn't just call ethos's role an Alien because combined roleblocker/rolestopper is an existing role, Alien, which has been around onsite since before I joined (it predates 2008), and which has been Normalized as a whitelisted role.

[mastina]

Was it Chemist with the doctor? Or Chemist with the roleblock? Or Mastina with whatever protective role she had?

Wasn't me. I healed damage dealt by the game mechanic. And, yes, healed you every single night including last night. This was my role:
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: MMRT UPick Role PM
Date: Sat Sep 14, 2019 3:35 pm
From: Gamma Emerald
To: mastina

mastina

Hello mastina! You seem to be fortunate enough to have not been corrupted, so you are aligned with the town. You have been given abilities based on a 2-liter water bottle, making you a Medic.

Treat wounds (Medic): You may heal a player of any damage taken that night or previous nights. This will not stop kills resulting from causes other than damage. You may self target.

You win when all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town is alive.

(Incidentally, water bottle was my third choice, not my first or second. My first/second were a mechanical pencil and a mechanical clic-eraser. All three are half of my objects of power.)

Incidentally: twice, I considered self-protecting. On D1 before I had a townread on jjh, and last night, when Suji not so subtly implied the plan to damage me. But both times, I decided that protecting jjh > selfishly self-protecting.

[mastina]

Because she wasn't gonna be able to

I wasn't told I was roleblocked.
So saying I was going to protect jjh had a more simple motivation:
I was under the impression that, beit to the scum nightkill or to Suji, I was going to die last night, and I wanted my last post to make it unambiguous what my actions were after I had died.

[mastina]

Shit so why did deb have a backup that was probably of that

I mean...I wasn't convinced there was a scum damage mechanic D1, but after DEB flipped, I thought, "there's no way that the mod gives a backup healer to the town if the scum can't deal damage".

Apparently, there is.

[mastina]

Also @everyone I always welcome feedback

@mastina just in case you missed this

You did fairly well, you just had a bit of a tunnel which was wrong on jjh.

[mastina]

Like I know I was wrong but I don’t necessarily see how I could have avoided SRing him there after the kori lynch and the initial aggression towards my slot

Experience.
Experience, of knowing that most scum, especially veteran scum, don't push for mislynches early-on that hard and that aggressively and insist that a town player will flip scum until the very last second.

That trait CAN come from scum--but if it does, it's very specifically scum mimicking townplay because that level of aggression against town so early is almost always from town.

In other words.
You'd actually have had a far better chance of being right on jjh if Korina had flipped scum; Korina flipping town only strengthened the reasons for why jjh would be town.

You have to keep in mind.
Being wrong, even from veteran skilled experienced players, != being scum.
You can, in VERY SPECIFIC CIRCUMSTANCES, burden of proficiency them--but if you look at burden of proficiency on the wiki, it's listed as a logical fallacy for damn good reason. Because thinking "you're a veteran skilled player, you must be better than this" is often fallacious in most circumstances. (Like I said, there are some specific situations where burden of proficiency isn't a fallacy and is actually valid, but I'm not sure I can describe them? I can point to instances, but I can't generically explain them.)

Town are going to be wrong more often than not--even good town.
As the uninformed majority, town are uninformed; they make conclusions which are uninformed and thus are inaccurate.
Scum are going to be right more often than not--as the informed minority, they have the information to make conclusions which are based on information they know to be true and thus are going to be more accurate.

[mastina]

To put it another way:
There are going to be scum who push things that are absolutely wrong with absolutely wrong logic; there are going to be town who push things that are absolutely wrong with absolutely wrong logic. I'm not sure which alignment does this more often to be honest.
There are going to be scum who push things that end up being wrong but which use really damn good logic; there are going to be town who push things that end up being wrong but which use really damn good logic. The former is the hallmark of the oldguard style of play, but in this day in age is incredibly rare to see; the latter of town being wrong with good logic is incredibly common.
There are going to be scum who push things that are right with good logic; there are going to be town who push things that end up being right with good logic; in this day and age, the former is INCREDIBLY more common than the latter.

And that's just due to the advantages inherent in being the informed minority, versus the uninformed majority.

[mastina]

mastina, absent my tunnel on you I would appreciate feedback and/or tips on how I can do better.

Honestly, just time and experience to realize the clash between your idea of mafia theory and the reality of the game as it is on mafiascum.net. Most of what you did which was a 'mistake' was things which originated from you having a view of the game which was fairly evidently one not a viewpoint an experienced player on mafiascum would have.

I'm not really sure how I can really help fix that other than "give it time, look at what you THINK things are, then what they ACTUALLY are, and refine your thoughts to reflect the reality". (With the minor caveat of, unless you're playing dozens of games and seeing the same thing in most of them...your small sample size won't NECESSARILY reflect the reality of the whole site and could just be those games specifically--so basically. With the caveat that you need to critically analyze it and go, "Was this something specific to this game (even if I have seen it in other games), or is it something that applies in general?", more or less.)

[mastina]

Also I hate how it is called that
Like how does roleblock + rolestop = "IT WAS ALIENS"

Alien = abduction.
When you're abducted, you're out of town--you can't be targeted.
When you're abducted, you're being sedated, restrained, whatever--you can't act.

This role has existed with that name and that function since like...I dunno. 2006 maybe? It's a REALLY old role which never stopped existing.

[mastina]

objects of power.

What

I have six objects of power: a mechanical pencil, a mechanical clic-eraser, a 2-liter water bottle, a coat (specifically, a hoodie), a digital watch, and a flashdrive.

I submitted half of them as my picks because all of them are common everyday objects which I just so happen to personally attach the moniker of being objects of power to, for reasons.

[mastina]

I thought D4 was massclaim

So did I. Ended up not being needed, butstill.