Mini Normal 2130: Mafia From Home [Game Over]

[Zantetsu]

VOTE: Anotora

Nice to meet you too.

[Zantetsu]

I know you're the Mod

Eh?

[Zantetsu]

I do however, hard claim informed that there are no masons in this game.

It's very important that you be clear about whether this was an RVS joke or if you are making this claim for real.

So which is it?

[Zantetsu]

Sausage makes this early mason claim in every game of his. Just pretend you're impressed and say he's a funny boi. That should make him feel validated.

Yes it was my impression that it was a joke too. But I think it would have been better to let the players involved talk their way out of it then deflate the situation yourself.

Don't you think it would have been better for Saudade to answer for himself?

[Zantetsu]

So, Zantetsu, you knew that it might be a joke but kept rolefishing anyways? I don't like it.

Where was I rolefishing?

I didn't

know

it was a joke, I thought it was a joke. But since I didn't

know

I was going to let the players involved speak for themselves.

Also you've already accepted profii's claim so from your perspective there is no need for any roles to be fished.

So what is your point again exactly?

[Zantetsu]

However more interestingly, Norweg was scum in that game, and was very excited to bandwagon him. Different tone and vibe here, so initial read is town.

So you think Norwegian is a bad enough player that he doesn't use his town tone when playing as scum?

[Zantetsu]

Though seriously, I can't believe for a second that Riabi actually believed that was a genuine claim.

Anotora apparently believed it though. What do you make of that?

[Zantetsu]

Unless I'm mistaken, you didn't actually ask Saudade anything...

Answer for himself with regards to essentially being called a liar by Profii for "claiming" Mason.

In fact, I don't really understand why you didn't, when you were very adamant that you wanted Profii to confirm there were no masons in the game, for some reason??

Because I didn't expect Saudade to need to be prompted to answer given that he was already essentially challenged by Profii.

Profii, on the other hand, needs to clarify why he is counterclaiming what was a pretty obvious fake RVS claim. Hence my question to him.

But I thought all of this was obvious already? Why wasn't this obvious already?

Unvote, Vote: Zantetsu for being a bit overly aggressive and defensive for page 2.

I'd be interested in hearing what others have to say about this vote.

[Zantetsu]

Though seriously, I can't believe for a second that Riabi actually believed that was a genuine claim.

Anotora apparently believed it though. What do you make of that?

Actually Anotora specifically said they didn't believe it. What convinces you otherwise?

Sorry, I wasn't clear. Anotora believed that Saudade's claim was real, not a fake RVS claim. They (

Andora - why do you make me use that pronoun? It's so ridiculously inconvenient)

also believed that Profii's counterclaim was real. Otherwise there is no justification for Andora's vote on Saudade.

[Zantetsu]

I'm glad you rolled town Norwe.

Yes, 7 out of 10 times I think you post this as town rather than scum.

I'm playing this casually so I'll throw a TR already on you. If you're scum I think I'm gonna sense it by some point.

From your PoV, Norwegian already has a 9/13 chance of being town, which is 69.2%. So his "7/10 chance of town" post really shouldn't be moving the needle on your scum read of him. Just saying.

[Zantetsu]

I do think you're being quite aggro in 27, 35, but on the other hand I think you make a decent point in second half of 33.

It's not a big deal but I am genuinely puzzled about what I posted that was "quite aggro".

Maybe you didn't like my tone in 35, insinuating that Norwegian was a bad player? Sorry if it came off that way, I've never played with Norwegian and have no idea if he's good or bad. I just find it interesting when people think that they can rely on past experiences to pin down a player's alignment from just a few posts. To me it's implicitly saying that you can read a player better than they could act to fool you, which is an interesting evaluation to make.

[Zantetsu]

Are the forums soooper doooper slow for everyone else too? Some of my posts don't even seem to be going through ...

[Zantetsu]

Because of my absence, I'm a bit rusty, and I'm not sure I understand the logic of hardclaiming a Mason so early. Would someone mind explaining that to me?

Until I have a better understanding of that

VOTE: Saudade

Is that the third vote on a shitwagon?
VOTE: Riabi

There were two posts on that wagon already though. Why did you pick Riabi to vote? If Riabi hand't voted, would you have voted either of the other players on the sh**wagon? If Riabi leaves the wagon, will you vote one of the other two?

[Zantetsu]

Yeah seriously. Profii keeps making statements and then waiting for someone to ask him to explain before explaining. Like how about saving us all some time and explain yourself at least at a basic level when making your posts Profii?

Also Riabi - Norwegian is not only voting you, he's actively encouraging others to vote you. You have not even interacted with him. Why not?

We're not out of the woods yet on the site slowness yet. It just happened to me again.

[Zantetsu]

VC when I wake upz

Night nerds

I'm trying so hard to be nice. But man the gulf between how I would run a game if I modded it and the modding I get in my games is just ... huge. Nearly every time.

If you want a fantastic mod, try Cheetory6. I would literally pay for modding of that quality. No joke.

[Zantetsu]

Here is the vote progression on proffi:

Una (L-6)
Una - Luca (L-5)
Una - Luca- Norwegian (L-4)
Una - Luca - Norwegian - Anotora (L-3)
Una - Luca - Norwegian - Anotora - Exig (L-2)
Luca - Norwegian - Anatora - Exig (L-3)
Luca - Norwegian - Anotora - Exig - Riabi (L-2)
Luca - Norwegian - Anotora - Exig - Riabi - Battle Mage (L - 1)
Luca - Anotora - Exig - Riabi - Battle Mage (L - 2)
Anotora - Exig - Riabi - Battle Mage (L - 3)
Exig - Riabi - Battle Mage (L - 4)


Several people have used false reasoning based on incorrect vote counts on the profii wagon:

- Battle Mage falsely claimed L-1 and asked for a claim from profii
- profii answered the claim without ever questioning the need to since he was not actually at L-1
- Anotora falsely implied that profii was in danger of being hammered by me when profii was actually at L-3 and used that as justification to get off of the profii wagon

I really don't know what to make of all of this. Any of the three could be using intentional miscounts of the votes to advance some agenda but very unlikely all three are (which would require all to be scum).

My read of profii is "too scummy to be scum" at this point. His flailing in posts 134 - 201 were very scummy but his subsequent posts have been a lot better. The good news is that wagon progression I think gives us a lot of data going forward.

At this point I'm not on board with a lynch of profii or UnaBombaH today specifically because of their 'weird associations' as Luca put it.

[Zantetsu]

Looker, please give at least one reason why anyone should be voting Riabi.

[Zantetsu]

I’m actually wondering if Profii/Una is s/s after all. Such weird interactions.

Them being scum distancing is an interesting theory. But i'm still under the impression that their interactions are too awkward to be s/s. It seems likely it could be SvT and the scum is trying to create associations or buddy the other.

Read carefully. I'm convinced that both specifically do not want the other to be lynched. I doubt it's SvT.

[Zantetsu]

At this point I'm not on board with a lynch of profii or UnaBombaH today specifically because of their 'weird associations' as Luca put it.

I agree with most of your analysis, and thank you for putting the work into that progression.

That said, I did bump on this last sentence a bit. If you really are on board with a lynch of either of them, why is your vote still on your RVS vote of Anotora?

You misread me. I said I am NOT ob board with a lynch of profii or UnaBombaH today.

[Zantetsu]

So you actually believe it is TvT?

I believe it's likely TvT. If it's SvS is a very carefully planned set of interactions.

It's bigger than just TvT though. I think there is something deeper going on.

I could be wrong of course but I'd like to let it ride for a little while and focus elsewhere for now.

[Zantetsu]

I could be wrong of course but I'd like to let it ride for a little while and focus elsewhere for now.

And where exactly do you want to focus?

Do you think I'm scum?

[Zantetsu]

I could be wrong of course but I'd like to let it ride for a little while and focus elsewhere for now.

And where exactly do you want to focus?

Do you think I'm scum?

1: You answered my question with another question.
2: That question doesn't answer my own question.

OK well the answer is, I am not entirely sure. There are 10 other players in the game I could focus on besides profii and Una and I expect to change my focus frequently going forward. Furthermore, if I have suspicions of players it is hardly to my benefit to pre-state them as you are requesting I do and if you think I am town I don't even see why you would want me to do that. At this point I have a town read on you but I think you have a scum read on me.

[Zantetsu]

Do you think I'm scum?

1: You answered my question with another question.
2: That question doesn't answer my own question.

OK well the answer is, I am not entirely sure. There are 10 other players in the game I could focus on besides profii and Una and I expect to change my focus frequently going forward. Furthermore, if I have suspicions of players it is hardly to my benefit to pre-state them as you are requesting I do and if you think I am town I don't even see why you would want me to do that. At this point I have a town read on you but I think you have a scum read on me.

I had you as leaning town until this post. Isn't the entire point of the game to discuss who we have suspicions of and why? If you were to place all the players in this game on a spectrum from for-sure-scum to for-sure-town, can you tell us who would be closest to for-sure-scum, even if they aren't very close?

Sure I can. But that's not the question you asked previously, or at least that's not what I thought you were asking. The question "where EXACTLY do you want to focus" is a very different question to me than "what are your reads". The former implies that I can only answer with certainty and like I said I do not have certainty at this point.

Anyway, all that aside here are the players I am leaning town on:

Luca
Norwegian
Egix
UnaBombaH
profii

Here are the players I am leaning scum on:

Anotora
Battle Mage
Churros

The rest are basically null.

[Zantetsu]

I think it's pretty unlikely there wouldn't be at least 1 scum in your townleans Zantetsu. Which leads to my next point, you give townreads away too easily. That still doesn't mean i believe you are likely to be mafia yourself. I just don't agree with you.

Just looking at the profii wagon.

I think you and Luca are town because all your reasoning was good on the way to getting profii to L-2. He was acting super scummy once the wagon was on him, he was putting out every contradictory reason possible to save himself, but then when he started making better posts, you guys backed down in a way that seems very "appropriately cautious". profii didn't claim a power role which would have been the logical thing for scum!profii to do if he really thought his lynch was imminent. He didn't even double check his vote count and notice that he wasn't really at L-1. All of this adds up to a town lean on all three players for me.

egix hasn't posted a lot but I have liked his through process in the posts he has made. He got on the profii wagon at a time that I thought it made sense. And all of his subsequent posts I just liked. But the amount of content there is not enough for me to feel as confident as I do about the others in my town list.

UnaBombaH I have a theory about. Maybe my theory is wrong. But he has said things. I can point them out but really they are there for anyone re-reading his ISO to see.

Anotora I am weakly scum reading most because it is so hard for me to believe that They really believed Saudade's mason claim, then believed profii's fake counter-claim. That seems disingenuous. Also the fact that They so transparently followed Luca and Norwegian onto and off of the profii wagon. And finally, the casting shade so heavily at me - claiming I was rolefishing, but then not even caring that Battle Mage fished a claim out of profii when profii was not even L-1. But Anotora also has a very low post count and low content production so this is admittedly a pretty weak read.

Battle Mage it just feels inconsistent to me that he'd put as much effort into reading and forming theories and then not even vote count well enough to see that profii really was at L-2. Also I can't shake the feeling that Battle Mage is playing scum like I played it the first few times - just really try-hard and casting shade everywhere. And all those smileys ...

And Churros I didn't like how he immediately town read Norwegian for almost no reason. But this is just gut feel and he hasn't posted hardly anything so super weak read here.

[Zantetsu]

That is a very pretty list Norwegian.

I think we need to talk about UnaBombaH because we have polar opposite reads there. The problem is that if I give you my explanation it's possibly going to put some bullseye's on some people ...

[Zantetsu]

That is a very pretty list Norwegian.

I think we need to talk about UnaBombaH because we have polar opposite reads there. The problem is that if I give you my explanation it's possibly going to put some bullseye's on some people ...

So i take it you have a good reason to not see UnaBombaH as scummy? Something to do with game mechanics? Is that what you're hinting at?

Yes.

[Zantetsu]

Looker I don't understand post 367.

"Fair. So I'm guessing everyone thinks he's town as of right now. We'll see how"

So you are saying you think Riabi is scum and none of us realize it yet?

"@Riabi: No; you're not right. I feel that you're a weak player and will soon be an easy target. I was just testing the waters for bloodlust."

But now directly to Riabi you are saying you think he's town? Because why would scum 'bloodlust' after another scum player? Or are you saying you are testing the waters for town bloodlust? In which case what does that even accomplish?

[Zantetsu]

Any thoughts on my points against Churros?

I agree with all of them but with the caveat that Churros post count has been low and I wouldn't lynch just based on what he's done so far.

[Zantetsu]

I believe there's a chance they are scum who see an opportunity to save me for later as an easy mislynch.

I'm working on the theory that you soon won't be mislynchable. But what you said here is starting to shake the foundation of my theory. And I'm not OMGUSing here, I'm talking not about the fact that you think I would save you for an easy mislynch, it's that you think an easy mislynch of you will be possible.

[Zantetsu]

Although in the nicest possible way, I'd be keen to know if those who have played with Norweg before have seen him react this way under scrutiny as scum, town or both?

Are you looking just for opinions or for links to games?

[Zantetsu]

I agree there is at least 1 scum in that trio, although think we'll have a lot more clarity once Proffi is lynched.

What kind of clarity do you expect to get from a profii lynch about whether or not Norwegian and I are scumbuddies?

[Zantetsu]

I then posted a theory about the way Una, which seemed tinfoil hat but it was driven by the fact that a vote on me was quite natural at the time, yet Una said no no no for no apparent reason

You really think there is NO reason that Una wouldn't vote you?

[Zantetsu]

I'm setting boundaries/establishing stances. It's also Schrödinger's cat - if he's scum, I find it suspicious that no one's voted him despite openly criticizing/insulting his intelligence/play; however, if he's town, I want to make any agenda shifts more obvious when he becomes mislynch bait, since people have been openly criticizing/insulting his intelligence/play.

1. riabi

has

been voted by someone who openly critized/insulted his intelligence/play.
2. One of the players who has openly criticized his intelligence/play has been you, and you didn't vote him.
3. Only three players from my count have openly criticized his intelligence/play, and once again, you are one of them.
4. It sounds like you are making this all up as you go along.

[Zantetsu]

opinions would work!

Why do you think you can trust anyone's opinion about how Norwegian behaves?

I agree there is at least 1 scum in that trio, although think we'll have a lot more clarity once Proffi is lynched.

What kind of clarity do you expect to get from a profii lynch about whether or not Norwegian and I are scumbuddies?

Well, if Proffi is scum, Norweg will be top of the list tomorrow. And if Norweg is scum, you are top of the list on Day 3. I've got it all mapped out.

OK so if profii flips scum first, then you think Norweg must be his scumbuddy. And if Norweg flips scum, then you think I must be

his

scumbuddy. And you have already stated that you think profii is definitely scum.

So by extension you must believe that you've found the entire scum trio on D1? Are you for real?

[Zantetsu]

Zantetsu can you just say why you don't believe Una shouldn't be the lynch? Because i feel like this is going nowhere.

OK well here goes. Unfortauntely Una's recent post and especially profii's recent post, both of which I isssued questions about, have kind of put a dent in my theory. But here it is, under a spoiler tag because it's quite a wall.

Spoiler:

I think that UnaBombaH is Informed that profii has a role. My evidence:

1. His first vote was on profii. That's some coincidence given that it's now profii that he claims should not be lynched.
2. In post 99 profii is first in his list of players he feels like he can read correctly. I think that is signalling that he knows something about profii.
3. post 258 bolds "I do not want profii lynched today". And says "I'll be a lot more adamant about profii once I see how this day pans out IF WE LYNCH SOMEWHERE ELSE." And the big one: "I believe profii could offer a lot for this game in the coming days, one way or another."
4. post 277 "And if you can't compromise with profii today, then go for it, and I'll try to do my best explaining afterwards."

(1) and (2) establish UnaBombaH association with profii well before profii was ever the target of any wagon.

In (3) UnaBombaH does not want profii lynched today. Why? There must be a specific reason. It can't be just because "he thinks someone on the profii wagon was scum", because that itself woudn't be evidence that profii is town since scum could be bussing. There is another reason UnaBombaH wants profii to live.

Also in (3) he hints that he will know more, and presumably we will know more, if profii is allowed to live - "I'll be more adamant about profii once I see how this day pans out".

And finally in (3) he suggests profii could offer a lot for the game in coming days. If that is not nearly a direct statement that profii has a role, I do not know what would be. And he says "one way or another". Note that, I'll talk about it in a second.

Finally in (4) he says that if profii is lynched he'll try explaining afterwards, which suggests to me that he knows something about profii that if profii is lynched, he will be able to explain presumably because he will be able to state that he knew that profii had whatever role profii has and give as evidence all of the quotes that I quoted above, and possibly more.

I think that there are two likely possibilities here:

a. That UnaBombaH is Informed that profii has a role, something like "profii is a roleblocker" or "profii is a cop". But his Informed info does not tell him the alignment, so it could be scum or town (remember - "one way or another"). Which is why he wants profii to live, to see if profii's actions can confirm him as town.

b. That UnaBombaH and profii are in fact masons together. This would give some reasoning to profii's first claim -- that there are no masons - because he knew that Saudade is *not* a mason with them and instead of claiming mason to prove it, he just said he is informed that there are no masons, which would discredit Saudade in the same way as claiming mason but without the bullseye on him that a mason claim would bring. Both have made some effort to keep the other alive in their recent postings. And profii has offered to allow himself to be the lynch, possibly because he knows that with all of the quotes from UnaBombaH that i made above, Una could credibly argue that he is a mason.

However, there is a big problem with (b). Una has stated numerous times that he would be happy to see profii lynched on subsequent days. This wouldn't make much sense for a mason to say about another mason. One could conjecture that he was just trying 'not to make it too obvious' that they were masons but with all of the other ways he has be 'obvious' in trying to keep profii alive, I don't know why he would have such a conflicted approach.

Therefore I think it's much more likely that it's (a) - Una is imformed of profii's role. but not his alignment.

Now we have to decide, does this make Una scum or town? And does it make profii scum or town?

Well taking Una first. The entire concept of a scum informed that a town player has a role just seems stupid to me from a setup spec perspective. It would simply be 100% utility for scum and would give them an immediate NK target. It just seems beyond comprehension that a game would ever be set up in this way. So Una, if informed of profii's role, must be town.

Now taking profii. He could be either scum or town, but if scum with a role, I just think he would have played a much quieter game. Certainly wouldn't have started with a fake informed mason claim. Just the way he's played, I would not call it careful in any way shape or form. I just expect scum to play more carefully.

Anyway, just assume for a moment that Una is Informed that profii has a role. Then go back and read Una's ISO. I feel like a lot of it makes sense with that assumption in place. You will see that as Una is

concentrating on profii

, he is signalling that he knows something about profii that the rest of us do not.

[Zantetsu]

Who?

Battle Mage post 34. Not sure if you'd call that openly criticizing but I kind of would. Battle Mage is implying that Riabi is on a sh**wagon and is also questioning how sincere he could be in his reads. And also is voting him.

I'm currently voting Riabi

So you are. Three times in fact. I have no idea how I forgot that, mea culpa.

That's because I am.

You seem pretty passive. Do you have any reads to give?

[Zantetsu]

Assuming Proffi is town for "being too scummy" right now is just really weird.

"Too scummy to be scum" basically just means "player seems scummy but I think scum would play more carefully so probably town".

Do you think that was a weird evaluation to make based on profii's play at the time?

[Zantetsu]

If there’s a vig you’re the ideal target anyway given your claim.

I’m actually wondering if Profii/Una is s/s after all. Such weird interactions.

Early game Luca irked me

Right now I'm just nodding my head vigorously

I recommend to include Riabi on the list as well, his Saudade read isn't consistent, it kinda fluctuates from "must lynch" to "I want him to talk" with no reason.

It's not actually inconsistent. I think he's anti-town, and that's enough reason in my book to lynch someone early, regardless of alignment. That said, that doesn't mean I won't also vote to lynch someone I find worse/more scummy.

Riabi you've been popping in with very noncommittal statements all game.

You need to post a reads list and give some real original thoughts for your reads.

[Zantetsu]

Norwe any recent games where you have this same attitude? This a lot different than I've seen you in any other game, even the recently finished game we came out of.

town!Churros shouldn't ask a question like this. It's like asking 'hi if you're scum can you please cherry pick some evidence of that to fool me?"

It feels like a fake question meant to look like Churros is trying to be fair.

That being said, I am liking what I am reading from Churros' catch up so far outside of this question.

[Zantetsu]

Anyway, townies - please don't discuss other peoples assumed roles or hints during the early days.
You achieve NOTHING good for town by doing that.
Really stop, and think - what good could come from bringing those observations to the front?
If they are really a townPR, you have just pointed those things out for scum.
And if they are not, you have just weaved a massive WIFOM-nest for scum to abuse.
NOTHING. GOOD. COMES. FROM. DISCUSSING. ROLES. BEFORE. ACTUAL. CLAIMS.
While this site has a wide variety of views on how the game actually should be played - varying from player to player - I do not think anyone can argue why it's a good thing for town to talk about roles.


In this particular game, it's only myself or profii who might get shot for what Zantetsu has just said here, and

I don't think neither of us

is the biggest loss here.

I'm just curious to know what good you thought could come from inviting those observations by dropping numerous role hints. I mean you want to beat other players up for referencing them but you give yourself a free pass for making them.

[Zantetsu]

Luca sees stuff that I don't see on read-through and I'm like, why didn't I see that?

This is predominantly why I town read Luca. I do tend to do that though, town read players who I feel are more perceptive than I am.

[Zantetsu]

One thing to notice though. Profii has basically gone nonexistent ever since that wagon on him stalled. I'd expect town!him to be a bit more interested in what's going on... no?

100% this.

[Zantetsu]

VOTE: Riabi

Riabi is overly pre-occupied with defending himself and isn't making any apparent effort to game solve other than just hanging out on the biggest wagon.

[Zantetsu]

Churros and Luca interactions are reading as TvT.

[Zantetsu]

I'd actually be OK with a profii lynch today also.

[Zantetsu]

72offsuit - Like many others, not a lot of content, but, what is there is quality, and seems to actually be contributing to the game.

What the? If any player is *not* contributing to the game it's 72offset. Check his ISO. He hasn't posted anything meaningful in days and the last post he made with any content was kind of shredded by Luca and he hasn't even responded.

Your reads list actually makes sense aside from this.

VOTE: profii

This is a real, actual L-1.

[Zantetsu]

72offsuit - Like many others, not a lot of content, but, what is there is quality, and seems to actually be contributing to the game.

What the? If any player is *not* contributing to the game it's 72offset. Check his ISO. He hasn't posted anything meaningful in days and the last post he made with any content was kind of shredded by Luca and he hasn't even responded.

Your reads list actually makes sense aside from this.

VOTE: profii

This is a real, actual L-1.

Weren't you town reading profi?

The lack of participation after getting to L-1 and back down again combined with the fact that Una disavowed my theory changed my mind. Also the fact that a profii lynch even if town would be one of the better outcomes for D1 given associations and interactions.

[Zantetsu]

And then profii only came back in when he was called out on going quiet.

[Zantetsu]

So i'm still scumreading Una if anyone was wondering.

Does your read depend at all on profii's flip?

[Zantetsu]

So i'm still scumreading Una if anyone was wondering.

Does your read depend at all on profii's flip?

Didn't i mention earlier that my belief was town!profii equals scum!Una?

You might have. Alot of stuff has been said. Let me look back.

[Zantetsu]

And here's a perfect example of what I mean, you're voting Anotora based on a post that has no reasoning behind it, and doing so without any reasoning of your own.
Do you have an actual reason for your vote?

Obviously - everyone that voted for Anotora yesterday is dead.

This is obviously false. So do you have an actual reason for your vote?

It's because your ISO was and still is, weak.

Weaker than Anotora's?

At this point I would say yes, your ISO is weaker than Anotora's. Admittedly it's a tough call.

[Zantetsu]

Here is a very rough list of who I'd prefer to lynch today (bottom is best option, top is worst option). Tricky because a lot of reads are dependent on others, and I definitely need a re-read tomorrow.

Order of lynch priority today

Luca Blight
Saudade
Looker
72offsuit
Egix96
Anotora
Riabi
Churros
NorwegianboyEE
UnaBombaH
Zantetsu
profii

Battle Mage scum reads Norwegian

I agree there is at least 1 scum in that trio, although think we'll have a lot more clarity once Proffi is lynched.

What kind of clarity do you expect to get from a profii lynch about whether or not Norwegian and I are scumbuddies?

Well, if Proffi is scum, Norweg will be top of the list tomorrow. And if Norweg is scum, you are top of the list on Day 3. I've got it all mapped out.

BattleMage scum reads Norwegian

Ah ah ah, I've asked you 3 times to explain what YOU think. Why won't you?

Because i don't respect you as a player.

Apparently you don't respect yourself enough as a player, to actually play the game, rather than make personal insults at me for no reason. Boring.

For me, it's not a question of whether I respect you as a player. It's a question of whether you are town or scum. And the shameless evasiveness when you are caught piggybacking Zantetsu with no justification, is the final nail for me!

Battle Mage scum reads Norwegian

Well I'm happy enough with a Proffi lynch!

However if nothing else sticks, NORWEG NEEDS TO BE LYNCHED TOMORROW.

============================={}

Unvote, Vote: Proffi

Battle Mage scum reads Norwegian

that theory goes...

Into the toilet where it belongs.

Are you seriously gloating right now?

Funny how quick people turn up to throw shade at me after the hammer...

Battle Mage scum reads Norwegian

Scum:
Zantetsu
Anotora
Churros

Neutral:
72offsuit
Riabi
Egix96
Looker

Town:
NorwegianboyEE
Luca Blight
UnaBombaH

This is roughly where I am in terms of reads. Interested in exploring the Anotora-Churros relationship as possible partners. I need a re-read of Zant, but outstandingly my top pick for a lynch today.

Battle Mage town reads Norwegian

What's changed since the end of D1 to justify this 180 on Norwegian? Hint: nothing.

And why voting me despite needing to do a re-read on me? Why would a player who he admits needing to do a re-read on be "outstandingly [his] top pick for a lynch today"?

Next post from Battle Mage:

You're claiming a cop with a guilty on Luca? Well that works for me.

Unvote, Vote: Luca

Battle Mage is also willing to do yet another 180 on Luca here and without even the hint of questioning of Una's claim or his understanding of it.

[Zantetsu]

I am a town neighbor, my neighbor is 72.

What is your result?

Can confirm, so unless Luca is a scum neighbour, Una is lying.

VOTE: Una

Why do you think it's more likely that Una is lying than Luca is a scum neighbor?

[Zantetsu]

So yea, I checked Luca last night, since you wouldn't let me confirm profii N1.

Yeah I knew this is what you were going for. My "informed town" theory was BS and I thought you were cop and was offering to investigate profii. All of your admonishment that I don't reveal your role was kind of funny to me because I had drawn up that theory specifically to support you while not revealing my suspicion of your role. I crumbed this at the bottom of my theory post:

You will see that as

Una is concentrating on profii

, he is signalling that he knows something about profii that the rest of us do not.

Una
is

c

oncentrating

o

n

p

rofii

Una is cop

It is possible that you are scum that planned this but that would be an amazingly elaborate ruse and given that you would have had to follow through with a fake investigate on profii had we not lynched him I just can't see why scum!una would gambit like this.

[Zantetsu]

I am a town neighbor, my neighbor is 72.

What is your result?

Can confirm, so unless Luca is a scum neighbour, Una is lying.

VOTE: Una

What's a scum neighbour? I assumed this was like a mason, but the whole point of masons is they are confirmed town to each other. So you're saying you confirm Luca's claim, but it doesn't mean he's town?

Assumed

what

was like a mason? Scum neighbor? How does scum neighbor being like a mason make any sense at all? Are you suggesting that 72 is claiming that Luca has a role that implies that if Luca is scum, then 72 must also be scum (which I guess is what your interpretation of 'scum neighbor' would be)? So you think that 72 would support Luca's claim in a way that basically outs them both as scum?

I dunno, maybe you're not scum; maybe you're just really dumb.

[Zantetsu]

Simple + Neapolitan (= "a native or inhabitant of Naples").

So if Luca is a neighbour, I should've gotten a "no result". (same for any PR + alignment for that matter)
If Luca were a Vanilla Townie, I would've gotten a "Vanilla Townie" for result.
Instead my result was "not Vanilla". Meaning that with my role-combination the only way I would get that, is if Luca were to be a Vanilla Goon.

If your role is simple neopolitan, and if Luca is a town neighbor, then you should have gotten a No Result on Luca.

Neopolitan on town neighbor would give result "Luca is not a vanilla townie", since that's what neopolitan does -- gives positives on vanilla town and negatives on everything else.

But then the simple modifier would prevent this and give "No Result", since that's what the simple modifier does -- give the same result as a roleblocked action if the target is not vanilla town.

If your role is simple neopolitan, and Luca is a scum neighbor, then you would have gotten the result "Luca is not vanilla townie", since that's what neopolitan does.

But the simple modifier would also have kicked in because scum!neighor!Luca is also not vanilla town, so you would have gotten "No Result" there too.

The conclusion is that Luca cannot possibly be a neighbor, either scum or town.

Which means that both Luca and 72 would be lying. Which is possible given that Luca and 72 both made their defenses of each other before Una revealed his simple neopolitan role and thus might not have predicted that Una's role would be one which exactly countered their mutual defense.

Of course, it is also really hard to believe that scum!72 and scum!Luca would defend themselves in this way since it means that lynch of one would then give a guilty on the other. Which would be just about the worst possible association to give as a scum pair. It would mean that you have to win in 5p LYLO and don't even get a 3p LYLO.

But then, why would scum!Una have concocted such a strange and specific fake claim as "simple neopolitan"?

What would be like a huge gambit versus an even huger gambit.

On the other hand ... why would Una claim a guilty on Luca just because he got the result "Luca is not vanilla town" when there is the obvious other possibility that Luca is town with a role?

Luca Blight is scum.
Won't vote anyone else for now.

There is no uncertainty about the above.

[Zantetsu]

Possiblity 1: scum!Una in D1 to set himself up for a fake claim on D2, had all of N1 to think about how he was going to use his fake claim, and then completely screw it up D2.

Possibility 2: scum!Luna defended himself with a fake neighbor claim and scum!72 confirmed it. This is possible but it would be a HUGE gambit.

Possibility 3: mod error

So the choices come down to, Una is an idiot, Luca/72 are idiots, or the mod is an idiot.


But then it doesn't seem possible that town!Una actually is simple neopolitan who got a

[Zantetsu]

Whoops ignore the last sentence of my last post, it was some garbage that I accidentally left in when writing my post.

[Zantetsu]

My bet is on mod error.

[Zantetsu]

Which if true would mod-confirm Una's role as town and if false would mod-confirm that either Una is lying or Luca/72 are lying, with the greater likelihood being Una lying.

@Mod

: can you please confirm that if Una were town simple neopolitan and if Luca were in a neighborhood, then Una would have gotten a "No Result" result on an investigation of Luca?

Color for mod attention since I am not sure the mod actually reads this game.

[Zantetsu]

There's clearly been a mod error, but the way Una has gone about it doesn't sit well with me.

Before you claimed neighbor he was making essentially a false guilty claim. Because all he had on you was that you are not vanilla town.

It's only after you claimed neighbor that this mod error possibility arose from his PoV.

I agree that it is a bad look for Una to have claimed a guilty when all he had was that you were not vanilla. But the question then becomes, would scum!Una really fake this guilty so badly? And having faked that claim he'd be on the hook for producing results from it every night which just seems really risky for such a marginal claim.

It just seems more likely that he's town and made a mistake about what his result on you meant although that then implies that he made a huge mistake in understanding his results and how likely is that if he's had two+ weeks to think about his possible actions and what the results would mean?

It's just so effed up all the way around, the entire thing. That's a hard mistake for town!Una to make which then means it's a pretty dumb thing for scum!Una to pretend to have done.

[Zantetsu]

I'm also wondering why Una, as Town, would have targeted me anyway? Was he scumreading me D1?

He of course should answer for himself, but consider that you more or less led the wagon on profii, twice. I personally do not think that is particularly alignment indicative but others might see it that way depending on their predispositions.

[Zantetsu]

Ok well with that somewhat clarified, and in the spirit of the day, I'm claiming as well

Nothing has been clarified. But nice job trying to pick your moment for this bs claim.

I'm a '

PT Cop

', which means I can investigate people and find out if they are in private threads (which presumably is because we have neighbours and scum).

What a convenient role for you to claim, given that it suddenly has the same effect as a cop given the fact that a neighborhood was just revealed.

Last night I investigated Zantetsu and he came up positive. Given the claims and his reaction seems pretty unlikely he is a neighbour/mason, so he must be scum.

This is complete bs. I could not possibly have come up positive in an investigation by a PT Cop. I am not in any private threads.

VOTE: Battle Mage

[Zantetsu]

Jesus Norwegian don't you see how Battle Mage is trying to pocket you here?

He goes from "Now that this is somewhat clarified" in justifying this bs claim to "Can someone explain the Mod error thing to me? Like, if the Mod made an error, does that mean Una is confirmed town? and Luca-72offsuit confirmed neighbours?". Clearly he is just throwing out whatever sentiment he thinks will justify his actions.

I dunno, maybe he is just reaction testing but ... jesus. This game.

[Zantetsu]

Zantetsu. If BM is lying. He’ll be lynched tommorow. What is the reason for BM to fake claim a guilty on you if he dies tommorow assuming you flip town?

I agree it's not a good play for scum.

If Una or Luck is scum then he could be trying to protect his scum buddy by diverting from that issue. That does explain the timing and the fake "now that this is somewhat clarified".

[Zantetsu]

I also find this: "He is pocketing you, Norwee" a weird stance to have. I think you’re just desperate to discredit his claim seeing as there is no real way out of this. Because neighbors already claimed, and having a traffic PT makes sense in a setup with a hood.

It would be a weird stance if it wasn't true. I mean it's right there in front of you.

[Zantetsu]

If Una or Luck is scum then he could be trying to protect his scum buddy by diverting from that issue.

Who do you think it is then, assuming this is the case?

Well like I said it seems like an impossible choice but I would have to go with Una. Because if it's Luca, then as per my previous posts it means that 72 is scum too. Which means that all three of them have basically outed themselves. Which is impossibly bad scum play.

[Zantetsu]

I was pushed as scum by both Battle Mage and Una on day 1, yet now Battle Mage is apparently so eager to pocket me?
Well i'm honored if nothing else.

How do you explain his 180 on you then?

[Zantetsu]

If he is town then the game should be rather simple though.

How so?

[Zantetsu]

How do you explain his 180 on you then?

Beats me, why don't you ask him yourself?

Why are you deferring to Battle Mage instead of answering the question?

If he is town then the game should be rather simple though.

How so?

Because that means we lynch you, because you are scum.

That doesn't make the game simple though. There's a lot more game left after D2.

[Zantetsu]

Which if true would mod-confirm Una's role as town and if false would mod-confirm that either Una is lying or Luca/72 are lying, with the greater likelihood being Una lying.

@Mod

: can you please confirm that if Una were town simple neopolitan and if Luca were in a neighborhood, then Una would have gotten a "No Result" result on an investigation of Luca?

Color for mod attention since I am not sure the mod actually reads this game.

I actually do read this game. Anyone who has a question of their role, should pm me.

This doesn't answer the question though. I've been in games where the mod answered rules questions in thread because it's very helpful to all involved. Can you do that please?

[Zantetsu]

If Una or Luck is scum then he could be trying to protect his scum buddy by diverting from that issue.

Who do you think it is then, assuming this is the case?

Well like I said it seems like an impossible choice

Then why did you suggest it? It's a bit late to be throwing weak shade at me now! I've got ya!

Because 'impossible' doesn't literally mean 'impossible' in this situation obviously. It just means very unlikely. I was asked to give possible reasons for why scum!you would make this fake claim, and I did. Are you saying I should not have answered the question?

[Zantetsu]

If that's really your role Una then it's a fucking bullshit role that some too clever for themselves game designer made as a big fuck you to all players playing the game.

[Zantetsu]

And I actually believe you and am not confident that the mod nor anyone else actually has any idea how the investigations of this role are supposed to work, except in their own twisted mind.

[Zantetsu]

Like, I play in the normal queue to avoid this stupid bullshit.

[Zantetsu]

My gut-instinct was that scum might've been informed about a PT-cop?
Would explain why my then-assumed guilty on Luca was immediately responded to by a hood-claim and confirmation.

Exactly. The timing is just too cute. Neighbors revealed and BM immediately claims PT Cop and does so with a weak "now that this confusion with Una's situation has been cleared up" which is 100% false posturing.

I was hoping that maybe BM was just reaction testing but he's been given ample opportunity to come clean on that and has not. Another alternative is that he is town just claiming a fake role to get extra oomph behind his reads. He had me, profii, and Norwegian in his scum pool yesterday so that fits. Although why he would not be pulling this shit with Norwegian instead I can't say because I'm not inside his head. I have seen town players fake cop claims before. It never ends well, but they do it anyway. BM's attitude fits the bill on this - all the smileys which just shout to me "like me! pay attention to my posts! see my emotion!" which at first I read as some weak scum faking but could be genuine. Notice how his attitude has so drastically changed today. Players he was scum reading and whose intelligence he was quite frankly insulting (Norwegian) he's now all buddy buddy with and sending hearts to. He's shut up now and is just watching the game progress, probably with glee as he observes the confusion he's caused. I have definitely seen players whose ego directs their play like this before. And I explicitly stated that if he's not scum, he's dumb, and I can see that triggering a town player with such an ego to do something stupid.

This is the worst case scenario because it means that one of us will get lynched today, flip town, and the other very likely gets lynched tomorrow which sends the game to 4v3 LYLO with all or most town roles claimed which is very close to a scum win.

So BM if you're town who made a fake claim or who is still reaction testing you

have

to let us know

before

I get to L-1, preferably well before to avoid the chance that I get lynched and lead to the 4v3 I described.

If BM is scum then I can only say they must have a plan. Or alternately BM is just winging it, the ego I described above can go do stupid stuff as scum just as easily as it can as town. In this case my lynch today is not the worst thing because it is a 1 for 1 trade with scum which is fine for town. My biggest concern would be that knowing that this is not the most optimal play for scum means that they probably have a plan and sacrificing Battle Mage is in that plan. If the plan were to have BM claim tomorrow that he was town just making a fake claim then hopefully what I have said here cuts that avenue off.

[Zantetsu]

If Zantetsu and Luca Blight are scums then the most likely teammate is Egix96.

Why egix?

[Zantetsu]

Oh, I can come up with a LOT.
But I've made it a point here that whenever I'm a town-PR, I crumb early, make my claim later with the necessary quotes, and stick to it.
So no, I would never goof around with this as town, and scum!Una can play a lot better than you seem to think I could.

Do you mean, in this game, or on this site?

Are you saying you would never do that as scum? If not, why not? Why construct your meta to disadvantage your scum game?

[Zantetsu]

I also hope that the rest can now see why I played around the profii-slot the way I did.
I had my gut-hunch, and a solid way of making SURE N1.

Yes I saw it. I read what you were doing exactly. That is why I posted what I posted. I was trying to get Norwegian to see it too but he was too dense. So I made up a fake theory about you being informed town and profii possibly being a role because:

- It was a way to give you town points without actually pointing a bulls eye at you any more than you already had - informed town is not a role with any power so it would not draw a scum kill to you like suggesting you had real power would
- It allowed approximately the same level of doubt or certainty about profii that you had already allowed with what you said about him. My theory put him at a power role but not necessarily scum or town.

And I crumbed that I actually thought you were "cop" (not actual cop specifically but some kind of investigative) because I thought it might be helpful later to be able to confirm that my theory was fake - how exactly, I do not know, but keeping the door open for it just seemed prudent - although to be honest probably more because of my own ego, I just like to be right and I like to be able to prove after the fact that I was right.

[Zantetsu]

Might be yea.
Would be interesting to see whether Zantetsu thinks Luca is a viable lynch, right?

In the crazy land where the mod did not make a mistake with your investigation result, and I had to choose a vote between Luca and you, I would vote for you. But I don't think it gets there because I think the explanation is mod error. I swear there's at least one mod error in every game I play, especially when super strange roles and combined roles are involved.

[Zantetsu]

Hence, I'm going to claim my target because the way things are, I'm going to be able to protect Norwegian tonight AND get us one more conf.town for the next days.

Yes, this is the reason you declare your target.

However I think it's unlikely that you survive to give us a result.

If town have a rolestopper of some kind, it should be obvious who to target at this point.

[Zantetsu]

But then it doesn't seem possible that town!Una actually is simple neopolitan who got a

+

Whoops ignore the last sentence of my last post, it was some garbage that I accidentally left in when writing my post.

Seems like a potential PT-slip from scum.

What's the slip? I don't get it.

There's no slip. Focusing on stupid trivia like someone accidentally leaving text in when editing a post is the kind of thing players who know they are advancing a false position and are looking for any justification they can find do.

[Zantetsu]

Although the level of cluelessness that Looker is cultivating in this game borders on the unbelievable.

[Zantetsu]

And if you notice, Zant had shaded me a fair bit while making that conclusion, and he ‘defended’ Una more than he defended me.

I don't really feel like I did that, but OK. When you have to try to explain what seems like an impossible situation, it's hard not to say things that because they don't make sense, look like shading.

Una is clearly an experienced player. As is Luca. It is as impossible to believe that scum!Una would so oddly screw up a fake claim as it is to believe that scum!Luca would risk himself and another player on his team by claiming neighbors with him. When choosing between these two possibilities and mod error, I have to go with mod error. Especially given this mod, who never prods players despite that being in the rules (or if he does, doesn't announce it like I've seen every other mod do), who doesn't post vote counts with even the barest of frequency or regularity, and who doesn't answer questions in game to clarify game rules. It's not much of a stretch to conclude that this mod also wouldn't get night actions correct.

[Zantetsu]

You could say ‘why would Zant go through all that effort to protect Una D1’ - again, to look Town.

And it worked as I was Tr’ing him.

Norwegian, look back at Zant’s D1 protection of Una, and how much effort he put into it.

Why would he do that if Una is Town and he’s scum?

Why would he make a rational wall post about Una’s result?

To look Town.

Of course that's possible, but I have to say, if I'm scum and I think Una is a cop or investigative of any kind really, I keep my mouth shut and just kill him.

[Zantetsu]

@Zantetsu
What you're saying now sounds a whole lot better than what you've said initially. So i think it's time to take a step back and find out just what in the heck is going on in this game.
UNVOTE:

Well to be fair I had been blindsided by a fake claim and then had to puzzle through a role claim from Una that just did not compute beyond mod error, and bad modding by itself normally kind of triggers me.

Anyway, after thinking for some time I realized that there really is not much that town can do beyond lynch me, but at least that's a 1:1 trade and VT for scum is a good trade so it's not a bad outcome. On the off chance that BM was just going rogue and playing badly this could be a good thing actually. I wish town could take the leap of faith to trust me but I understand why this is highly unlikely.

My biggest concern is that scum most likely has a plan and I haven't read really anything yet that suggests that anyone has any idea of how to address that.

pedit:

Battle Mage unvotes me because he needs to catch up and post final thoughts, then doesn't even bother to do that before re-voting. I can't believe I'm going to get lynched because of this moron ... sigh.

[Zantetsu]

scum!BM might actually make that gambit IF he felt like Luca was going to definitely be the lynch today, and Luca is their roleblocker.
That would fit with Zantetsu realizing my potential role (although it was wrong ) and me still not being roleblocked/killed.

I like this theory because it makes the world right again and nobody has to be an idiot. If it's true then I owe the mod an apology for assuming that they made a mistake ...

[Zantetsu]

See'ing Zantetsu's reaction to the guilty, I think he is probably indeed the scum but I'm gonna ask you do the proper procedure just in case. Better safe than sorry.

There is literally

no reaction

I could have had that you would not be saying made me look guilty. The scummier thing would have been to fake some claim to try to keep myself alive.

[Zantetsu]

who is BP?

He's been calling you that for days. Did you really just notice? So other posts of his didn't warrant close enough scrutiny to even see that?

[Zantetsu]

OK I'm done now. I am irritated by what BM has done but I think I have to get my emotions in check because my pointing out every scummy thing BM has done is not going to change the outcome and is just noise at this point. I am so annoyed though. Urgh.

[Zantetsu]

OK I'm done now. I am irritated by what BM has done but I think I have to get my emotions in check because my pointing out every scummy thing BM has done is not going to change the outcome and is just noise at this point. I am so annoyed though. Urgh.

You said you thought he was town earlier, now you’re pointing out all the scummy things he’s done? Ok...

Read my posts Norwegian. I said he might be town. Do you understand the difference between a statement of fact and a statement where numerous possibilities are enumerated? I am assuming you do but your posts don't always indicate that.

[Zantetsu]

And I said it in a context where it was one possibility to describe his fake claim against me. But he's disavowed that himself and the only option left is that he's scum.

[Zantetsu]

Do you believe town or scum you would behave any differently to a guilty like this Zantetsu?

Aside from possibly making a claim calculated for maximal value for my team, probably not to be honest.

[Zantetsu]

Well there's always the irrational hope that someone will just take that leap of faith.

I think there are players who need to post a lot more before they could be sorted. There are players who as far as I can recall have never even interacted with Battle Mage which makes it nearly impossible to sort their relationship with him.

But that being said, I'll go for one last read through to see what I can come up with, if it helps. I know that once I flip town people are going to ignore my reads just like every town flip (see profii and every town flip I've ever seen in any game I've ever played), but maybe I can find something that will have an impact.

[Zantetsu]

I’m bored now.

VOTE: Zant

L-1 I think. Hopefully Anotora is replaced during the night.

It's L-2. Una voted twice. Sorry my motivation is not high knowing I am going to be lynched and my reads most likely ignored. But I will try to get my re-read done before I get to L-1.

[Zantetsu]

Nor why would you st

[Zantetsu]

VOTE: Zantetsu

[Zantetsu]

Someone stop this merry go round, I want to get off.

[Zantetsu]

With 11 Alive, It Takes 6 to Lynch.[/size][/b][/area]

Post 672:

Zantetsu (1): Battle Mage

Post 684:

Zantetsu (0):

Post 740:

Zantetsu (1): Battle Mage

Post 753:

Zantetsu (2): Battle Mage, NorwegianboyEE

Post 833:

Zantetsu (3): Battle Mage, NorwegianboyEE, UnaBombaH

Post 993:

Zantetsu (2): Battle Mage, UnaBombaH

Post 1022:

Zantetsu (3): Battle Mage, UnaBombaH, NorwegianboyEE

Post 1024:

Zantetsu (4): Battle Mage, UnaBombaH, NorwegianboyEE, Luca Blight

Post 1046:

Zantetsu (3): UnaBombaH, NorwegianboyEE, Luca Blight

Post 1052:

Zantetsu (2): UnaBombaH, NorwegianboyEE

Post 1071:

Zantetsu (3): UnaBombaH, NorwegianboyEE, Battle Mage

Post 1131:

Zantetsu (4): UnaBombaH, NorwegianboyEE, Battle Mage, Luca Blight

(post 1143 has mod error because mod missed Battle Mage's vote in post 1071)

Post 1148:

Zantetsu (5): UnaBombaH, NorwegianboyEE, Battle Mage, Luca Blight, Zantetsu

Post 1152:

Zantetsu (6): UnaBombaH, NorwegianboyEE, Battle Mage, Luca Blight, Zantetsu, Egix96

LYNCH

It's all over but the crying.

[Zantetsu]

Now gimme some of that sweet sweet Cheetory flip flavor ...

[Zantetsu]

xxxxx

[Zantetsu]

Wrong thread.

[Zantetsu]

[delete]

[Zantetsu]

[delete]

[Zantetsu]

[deleted]

[Zantetsu]

Again I sincerely apologize for completely screwing this game up by accidentally posting in game thread.

Battle Mage, I'm sorry that I ruined your chances of even having a legitimate game to finish your solo scum run in.

That being said, obviously I think your fake guilty of me D2 was unjustified and unnecessary and I think in a universe where I did not screw the game up, you would have lost for it. As I said in scum chat, the lynch target for D2 was Anotora.

[Zantetsu]

Yes Firebringer you can release the scum thread. What is in it probably won't surprise anyone.

[Zantetsu]

Also the Una result was probably wrong, but who will ever know.

[Zantetsu]

Looker you here? This is bji. I just created my first alt account - Zantetsu - just so I can have this cool avatar. Anyway, what happened to you this game Looker? In our previous game, you were not stellar, but you had reads that made sense and you played OK. What were you even DOING this game?

[Zantetsu]

Norewegian you and Egix were super, super important players and the loss of you two was 100% what lost this game. Egix wasn't playing much but he had super valuable info to give and he was clearly sharp enough that he would have given it at the right time. You were the only town player left it turns out who had any thought process. Well, Bitmap actually figured some things out there at the end that should have clearly shown that BM was scum, but I'm quite confident that you would have figured it all out and made actually good cases that led to a game win via players other than hopeless Looker had I not gotten you replaced.

My previously hated game was the one where I was town cop, had guilties and would have won it, but some moron town player threw the game on purpose by posting his role PM in thread just to be a d***. But this game has now taken its place as the worst game I've ever played.

[Zantetsu]

From Churros in dead thread:

"I normally don't care too much, but only in this game I would feel a bit cheated on not winning this"

I am not counting this as a victory for my record books, I really think you should not count it as a loss.

[Zantetsu]

Looker you here? This is bji. I just created my first alt account - Zantetsu - just so I can have this cool avatar. Anyway, what happened to you this game Looker? In our previous game, you were not stellar, but you had reads that made sense and you played OK. What were you even DOING this game?

I haven't been paying attention to this site. I should. But I haven't. Sorry to...disappoint...? But I can't imagine expectations were that high. I wish Norway would've put in more effort, though

So basically you sh** on everyone else who wanted to take this game seriously?

Especially Norwee who you keep insulting? (I mean it's obvious that you're just trying to get a rise out of him here but -- give it a break. It's not nearly as funny as you seem to think it is)

Of course I have no room to talk. With one quick slip of the 'submit' button I f***ed the whole game.

[Zantetsu]

The sh** wasn't intentional - I thought I was right. Clearly this game requires more effort than I thought.

You admitted yourself that you weren't paying attention to the game. That's what I meant by sh**ing on everyone else. Like lots of people played hard to try to have a meaningful game and when you put no effort in you turn it into a coin flip at the end. And what's the point of playing for 4 weeks just to get a coin flip?

[Zantetsu]

Well Looker I harbor no ill will and I know that expecting anything from anybody on a site that people play for free and with no obligations is pretty foolish. But I will probably keep doing to because I am a fool.

[Zantetsu]

But the man of the hour hightailed it out of here pretty quickly. Come back BM, I got all my anger out already, I'm not going to abuse you, I promise.

[Zantetsu]

Well Looker I harbor no ill will and I know that expecting anything from anybody on a site that people play for free and with no obligations is pretty foolish. But I will probably keep doing to because I am a fool.

If it means anything to you, having you hate my avatar is important to me. Normally, I would hide and lie and deflect, but I think it's important that you see my face and hate me. I also think you shouldn't play any more games with me.

But your avatar is kind of cute.

[Zantetsu]

Zantetsu

Dude

Chill

Just quote what you think I shouldn't have said and I will try to tone down on whatever it was. Sincerely.

[Zantetsu]

I also think you shouldn't play any more games with me.

Also too late, I'm pretty sure we're already locked into a game in the open queue. But seriously, I am not really mad at you, I'm just being as honest as I can be.

[Zantetsu]

Also I as I mentioned in dead thread, I appreciate all the love I got for the minimalistic flavor I did this game from people.

It was really good, especially at first.

[Zantetsu]

Firebringer I'm going to respectfully disagree, although I am not sure my opinion means anything to anyone. But still I will proceed.

I think mafia is a pretty hard game. I have seen most games come down to 3p LYLO, and the deciding factors of the game can often be razor thin. The only thing that we can point to beyond random chance that determines outcomes of games is play; and anything that disrupts play therefore has an effect on the outcome of the game.

The timing of BM's claim (which as I pointed out numerous times but no one would listen!) was just too coincidentally right after a 2 person neighborhood was revealed for me to conclude that the neighborhood reveal was not the cause of BM feeling he could fake PT Cop at that point. Nobody even questioned why there would be a PT Cop in the game once it was known there were neighborhoods. So I don't think he would have done that had the neighborhood not been announced. Which itself very well might not have happened had Una gotten a different result.

It's quite possible that the neighborhood (or the neighborizer, or friendly neighbor) would have been claimed and lead to BM also feeling like he could fake a PT Cop claim. But probably this would have happened much later in the day, and by that point maybe BM wouldn't have felt so threatened by me (maybe we'd have a good wagon going against Anotora?) that he wouldn't have faked a guilty on me.

But I also agree with you that my screw-up was much more influential on the game, so if all we care about is "what was the most influential mistake", then I can easily take credit for that.

[Zantetsu]

Firebringer, are you waiting for anything in particular before opening other threads? I ask only because I find that getting stuff done as soon as possible after the game ends is the best way to get everything taken care of.

[Zantetsu]

In scum chat we kind of couldn't decide if Una was a PR or just trying to draw a NK. BM was much more interested in lynching Churros than Una and if I had survived D2 I would have acquiesced on the Churros kill and Una would have lived to get a result.

[Zantetsu]

I thought Una demonstrated good deductions and reads and would have been a good town player had he lived.

I thought Churros was a very good player and to be honest I am not at all sure that my N1 advocation for a kill of Saudade over Churros was the right call. But I left it up to 72, and he sided with me, which may be part of what drove BM to his actions, I don't know.

[Zantetsu]

Thank you Firebringer.