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[Lunar Martian]

By the way I have drawn town 9 out of 10 times and that sucks because I love playing as scum.

Something feels off about this post.

VOTE: NoPowerOverMe

[Lunar Martian]

Sorry I will try to catch up soon, but I'm out of town until Wednesday.

[Lunar Martian]

I've kinda ignored Bug's Pray becuase I figured a Town!Frogking could sort that slot. I'd say that Im fine with that slot being flipped, but theres a lot of slots i feel that way about, which is concerning.

I think this post most likely comes from Mafia justifying a willingness to kill anyone over Town being unsure.

[Lunar Martian]

I think this page says either Gamma or Luca is Mafia.

[Lunar Martian]

What are hoods?

[Lunar Martian]

The thing about Amelie's agressiveness is, it's one thing to be aggressive in the "town spirit" and work with other town players in the name of hunting scum, it's quite another to be agressive towards players that are by and large being townread by the rest of the table. It could be the result of inexperience or it could be the result of scum with an agenda.

I really don't like this post or the ones following it from NoPower. It feels like trying to deflect attention from a building wagon on him onto an alternate wagon, and doesn't it seem like being antagonistic is exactly the sort of thing Mafia would try to avoid?

VOTE: NoPowerOverMe

[Lunar Martian]

alright so obviously the game-state is still stalled.

but I think I have a grasp on things. At least, I see a few possible narratives that could be happening and I think the key to solving which one of them is true is an NPOM flip:

VOTE: NoPowerOverMe

I think this is the best lim at the moment. Very informative and there's a good case here. The way he was so dismissive and discrediting of his wagon in 360, Post 372 and 373 definitely gives me vibes of coasting scum aware of the good position their in.

More-over, I think NPOM's flip will be informative as to solving a few of the weirder interactions in the game as well as giving the answer as to if the game and wagons stalling is a purposeful scum creation. The main interaction I'm referring to is the NPOM v. Frogster interaction on Page 3, where Frogster builds a case against NPOM but then pushes Lunar with (what is in my opinion and the opinion of some others that I've seen) a very stretchy and weak read. Definitely feels like scum distancing there.

Something about this post feels off to me. Does anyone else see that?

[Lunar Martian]

I think Amelie is town. I really have no idea about bugspray, their posts are hard for me to parse. I'm willing to vote there potentially, but don't see a strong reason to atm.

VOTE: OutWorldER

[Lunar Martian]

@Lunar

what's your current read of NoPower?

I don't trust the "Townblock". I think there's probably at least one Mafia in there. Everyone is pushing this narrative that Mafia wants NoPower dead, and I don't see that. But I don't suspect NoPower much beyond that. I don't understand the bugspray votes either, but could join on Trendall maybe?

I mostly think Town is way off-base and Mafia is sitting and laughing at us.

[Lunar Martian]

Ok, I was just making sure that the claim was bs like I thought it was.

The only people that have an issue with it are those outside the block.

Who are the five people in it?

[Lunar Martian]

I think it’s time to start consolidating and compromising.

I prefer a Bugs elim but would be willing to compromise on Lunar. I’m not willing to eliminate anyone else today.

@Grendel, Momrangal

: I’m particularly looking at you two as I don’t see Trendall being eliminated today, nor do I think they should be ahead of Bugs/Lunar. Could you please choose between one of these wagons?

This post is really bad. I'd be OK with voting Luca based off this post.

[Lunar Martian]

There’s no reason or analysis behind any of your points.

What happened to Gamma or I being scum?

Why do you prefer a Trendall elim to Bugs? Do you TR Bugs?

I thought either you or Gamma was scum based on the way you both were trying to paint bugspray as scum for really odd reasons. Now I'm thinking you are scum and just latching onto Gamma's strange push.

I don't really know if bugs is Town, but I don't think Trendall is aorn. I still don't understand why people are voting bugs and no one has even attempted to explain it afaict.

[Lunar Martian]

This NPOM wagon is awful.

I agree with this, but I'm curious to why you think trendall isn't getting lynched. There are multiple people who have expressed that slot being likely scum and next to OWER.

There are also multiple slots expressing concern over OWER, but instead the consensus seems to be nerfing the loudest voice in the game. I'm not joining the NPOM wagon, and I could drop a vote on either but I would much rather drop scum over town.

Because no-one is particularly pushing the Trendall wagon, and there are three more popular wagons on the table, two of which I think are pretty obviously better eliminations. I’m perhaps biased about Bugs due to meta, but I don’t get why you’d want Trendall eliminated over Lunar who just seems objectively scummy; just popping in every now and then, steering things in a certain direction with no follow-up, no train of thought, no explanation and while repeatedly avoiding questions.

Since you know me better than anyone else in this game you should know that that's not because I'm mafia, but just because I've been busy. The fact that you're trying to paint it as me being Mafia tells me you're being disingenuous.

VOTE: Luca

[Lunar Martian]

LM is there a reason you decided to switch to a vanity vote?

What do you mean?

[Lunar Martian]

My aims are finding the Mafia. OWER is a fine vote. I think Luca is better. There's plenty of time. I don't like that you're trying to blatantly manipulate my vote into being on one of the popular trains.

[Lunar Martian]

im very scared of Luca because I can't read him and remember him rolling scum one time and believing he looked exactly like town!Luca and trying to elim me at any time is usually not very controversial (meta me if you're into that) and neither is wanting to elim lunar which makes me very

npim here is reminding me increasingly of town!formerfish

I’ve hard townread you every time you’ve been Town, including in the game I was scum, because when you’re Town you’re obviously Town. The only time I’ve previously SR you was when you were indeed scum, and you played in the same way you’re doing here.

Can you think of any other explanations for bugs behavior this game other than a scum flip?

No, they’ve displayed nothing of their Town behavior this game, and their reaction to my push feels as though they don’t quite know how to react to it, as though they know they’ve been caught.

I’ve had a lot of success meta reading certain players this way in the past. I was wrong on one occasion, although that was a bit of a unique situation.

I don't know how to react to it, but not because I've been caught. I don't know how to react to it because you are pushing me for a bunch of bullshit that makes no sense. Since it doesn't make sense there's not much for me to say.

[Lunar Martian]

If needed I can claim, but I prefer not to obviously. I'm not really willing to claim when half the people voting me haven't stated any reasons though. There's time, why don't the people voting me try to talk to me a little?

[Lunar Martian]

I'm frustrated. I'm getting deja vu from my first game where people thought I was Mafia but never really talked to me and then I died and I was Town and Mafia won the game because people ignored me.

[Lunar Martian]

If needed I can claim, but I prefer not to obviously. I'm not really willing to claim when half the people voting me haven't stated any reasons though. There's time, why don't the people voting me try to talk to me a little?

That’s a bit hard when you repeatedly avoid questions.

What are you reads?

I've shared my thoughts. If you aren't even going to bother reading what I write we aren't going to get very far.

[Lunar Martian]

If needed I can claim, but I prefer not to obviously. I'm not really willing to claim when half the people voting me haven't stated any reasons though. There's time, why don't the people voting me try to talk to me a little?

[Lunar Martian]

Some people can tell that I'm Town. Other people have said I'm Mafia, but they aren't saying why they think I'm Mafia. I'm being pushed to claim without any reason why people think I'm Mafia other than I wasn't posting for a few days while I was away. If that's pretty typical of this site just kill me now and I'll go elsewhere.

[Lunar Martian]

If needed I can claim, but I prefer not to obviously. I'm not really willing to claim when half the people voting me haven't stated any reasons though. There's time, why don't the people voting me try to talk to me a little?

That’s a bit hard when you repeatedly avoid questions.

What are you reads?

I've shared my thoughts. If you aren't even going to bother reading what I write we aren't going to get very far.

And if you’re not gonna bother to engage with me about your thoughts then what do you expect me (or anyone else who SR’s you) to do here exactly?

You’re crying woe is me but not pushing in any direction. Have any of your reads changed recently? How do you feel about a Bugs elim?

Don't ask questions I've already answered. Read what I've written already. This isn't real engagement. You aren't doing anything. You're trying to look busy.

[Lunar Martian]

I don't think your tendency to equate personality traits with scumminess is productive.

I don't like the lack of insight here, I think NoPowerOverMe is smart and picking this fight for a reason. I believe that even if NoPowerOverMe were town and just couldn't follow what I'm saying he would be able to communicate his thoughts with more clarity because communication is his strength (and listening is his weakness.) He's acting like both communicating and listening are his weaknesses, but really he's good at communicating and is being evasive at certain moments by pretending to miss the point or by being unspecific about his thoughts.

By the way I have drawn town 9 out of 10 times and that sucks because I love playing as scum.

Something feels off about this post.

VOTE: NoPowerOverMe

I think Lunar Martian noticed something was off about NoPowerOverMe's post because they're super-conscious of being partners because it's new. Similar to my opinion of NoPowerOverMe's evasiveness and lack of clarity I find Lunar's description here about what he was thinking to be evasive in a way that also has a lot of potential to be AI.

I"m good with executing Lunar Martian, especially after that last paranoid post where he though Luca was talking about him. That sounds like a caught (and not paranoid town) maf.

hmmm... i was definitely considering the idea of Lunar just being nervous newer town that cant put words together under pressure. However revisiting his posts now i just feel like it very easliy comes from new scum that cant explain their pushes inthread. wheather is because the underlying motives are scummy, or if they cant fake content to blend in.

-/-/-/-

Bug Spray i've cooled on a bit. Mostly because their paranoia of Scum!Luca is something I've been feeling more throughout the day as well. Also usally dont see scum make such a passive diversion when they are already getting heavily scrutinized.

-/-/-/-/-

Trendel is still probably my strongest gut scum read, but i dont have to energy to really make anything happen there. It bothers me that Trendel has done net little today and yet their wagon never went past 2 votes tmk. I think claiming "this wagon has no traction therefore scum" is an overrated sentiment that i've been trying to move away from lately, but thats sorta how I feel about Trendel. :/

Also, Outerworld is scum lean still I guess. Im not sure about joining a wagon with Trendel/Momrangel tho.

these people have all presented reasons for their Lunar votes in the quoted posts. The only person who hasn't rn is AGP. I don't particularly distrust the wagon given this, but AGP should probably give a reason since he's pretty lacking in content rn

Currently 6 people are voting me. You found 3 "reasons" people gave, but they're awful. The first one says "Hey here's a thing that might mean something!" But I'm not sure what it's supposed to mean or why. The second says "I didn't like this one thing, I want blood." I can't defend myself against that other than by saying "you're wrong," which I already said. The third reason isn't even a complete thought. It asks a question about how my actions should be interpreted but doesn't actually come down either way. There's nothing there for me to defend myself against. Try again.

[Lunar Martian]

Trendall** - Mafia
AGamblingPig*** - Who?
Momrangal - Not really sure.
bugspray - Not sure, no reason to kill them.
OutWorldER** - Mafia
Amélie - Town
Gamma Emerald - Town
Grendel - Probably Town
Galron* - Not sure
Lunar Martian - It'sa me!
NoPowerOverMe - Mafia
Frogsterking - Not sure, thinking Mafia.
Luca Blight - Mafia, big time.

The list you asked for.

[Lunar Martian]

Right....you complain that people are scumreading you for no reason and no-one is talking to you, but I’ve clearly tried to engage with you and you’re not interested in talking to me at all.

Intent to hammer, claim your role please.

Except you really haven't. You haven't even convinced me that you're reading anything I say.

[Lunar Martian]

bugspray - Not sure, no reason to kill them.

What makes you feel this way?

I don't see any reason to vote there and think the people voting there are as opportunistic as the people voting me. It's popular because it's trendy, and it's trendy because it's popular.

[Lunar Martian]

When it comes to bugspray I really need to utilize the NB meme for them (picturing NBs as a cluster of bees is a common joke)

I don't understand any of this.

[Lunar Martian]

Right....you complain that people are scumreading you for no reason and no-one is talking to you, but I’ve clearly tried to engage with you and you’re not interested in talking to me at all.

Intent to hammer, claim your role please.

Except you really haven't. You haven't even convinced me that you're reading anything I say.

That’s weird, given I’ve directly commented on most of your posts this game.

I’ll give you one more chance to claim.

Yes you've commented and still managed to not engage with my posts. For example you're still not showing that you've read my posts about bugspray, and you aren't following up on any questions you ask me, other than to whine. Kill me if you want, but it's gonna look real bad tomorrow.

[Lunar Martian]

I will admit my vote there was very cart-before-the-horse but I do also think bugs hasn’t acted in a really towny way at all, and some things from them come across as rather scummy

But why does that suggest that bugs is Mafia rather than just bugs has a different personality?

[Lunar Martian]

How can I follow up on questions I ask you when you flat out refuse to answer?

And the questions you repeatedly avoided earlier (like about me or Gamma being scum) I did follow up on.

Point to a question you asked, and a place where I attempted to answer it. Then explain why my answer is insufficient. Then I'll answer more. I don't think I've ignored any questions.

[Lunar Martian]

And I’ve fully explained why I think Bugs is scum but you haven’t engaged any of those reasons. You just say you don’t see why they are being SR even though I’ve clearly explained it.

You said your bugs read is based on meta. I don't really have access to that, so I don't see why that should be particularly compelling. I think you're Mafia anyway, so the fact that you think someone is Mafia doesn't mean much to me.

[Lunar Martian]

I dont this this 1v1 between Lunar and Luca is heppful for ethier party. If both of you are town then maybe chill out for a minute.

-/-/-/--/

Lunar did you see the question I asked you about Gamma?

I think the way Gamma approached me and moving votes was probably genuine. It seems like Gamma came under fire for their actions and responded in ways that were genuine. The movement seems to come from trying to solve the game rather than trying to blend in.

[Lunar Martian]

Lunas lack of town hunting is pinging me big time.

I realize they aren't all Mafia. But why is it an issue that I don't have exactly the right number of people pinged as Mafia on Day 1?

[Lunar Martian]

Are people really going to just sit and let Luca kill me here? That should be interesting.

[Lunar Martian]

Lunas lack of town hunting is pinging me big time.

I realize they aren't all Mafia. But why is it an issue that I don't have exactly the right number of people pinged as Mafia on Day 1?

It's an issue that your more interested in discrediting your wagon than finding town or scum.

Well my hand has been forced. People are attacking me, so everyone is talking about whether I'm Mafia. I don't see how I can really be expected to talk about why other people are Mafia when every post I make one person or another pops up to say I'm ignoring a question. You're being very slimy right now.

[Lunar Martian]

You basically just admitted you don't care about scumhunting.

You basically just admitted your primary goal is twisting my words.

[Lunar Martian]

Lunas lack of town hunting is pinging me big time.

I realize they aren't all Mafia. But why is it an issue that I don't have exactly the right number of people pinged as Mafia on Day 1?

It's an issue that your more interested in discrediting your wagon than finding town or scum.

Well my hand has been forced. People are attacking me, so everyone is talking about whether I'm Mafia. I don't see how I can really be expected to talk about why other people are Mafia when every post I make one person or another pops up to say I'm ignoring a question. You're being very slimy right now.

You’ve had the whole game to talk about why others are scum, it’s only now that you’ve come under heavy fire. You’ve had to be lead, or even dragged, into sharing your thoughts, and initially you outright refused to share them. Literally the only reason it’s reached this stage is because of your ridiculous attitude that ‘no-one is talking to me’ and then when someone tries to ask you questions you refuse to answer them.

That's all false. Please go read my posts. I've given plenty of reasons to suspect people.

[Lunar Martian]

How am i tunneling Lunar when I’ve been literally pushing Bugs’ lynch for most of the day?

I mean read your posts in the past 3 hours.

[Lunar Martian]

I dont this this 1v1 between Lunar and Luca is heppful for ethier party. If both of you are town then maybe chill out for a minute.

-/-/-/--/

Lunar did you see the question I asked you about Gamma?

I think the way Gamma approached me and moving votes was probably genuine. It seems like Gamma came under fire for their actions and responded in ways that were genuine. The movement seems to come from trying to solve the game rather than trying to blend in.

I was suspecting your reasoning to be tied more to to commet you made about "one of Luca/Gamma are scum this page". but these look like decently thought out reasons as well.

In a world where Town!Luca is tunneling you where would you look for scum next?

NoPower seems to be looking for reasons to think I'm Mafia right now. I really don't like now NoPower is pushing others to vote me. He's egging people on from the sidelines. His reasoning seems strange. It could be confirmation bias.

[Lunar Martian]

And I’ve given Lunar every chance to engage with me, but when they just outright refuse to answer my questions while at the same time moaning that no-one is talking to them, then there’s nothing more I can do.

Well I do respond to your posts. And I tell you I've already answered your questions. And I tell you to point to things I haven't answered well enough. And rather than pointing to a specific case, you just say "I already did."

[Lunar Martian]

I still think Bugs is more likely scum of the two, but I still also believe they could well be partners.

If you think bugs is more likely Mafia, why aren't you voting for bugs?

[Lunar Martian]

I don't like that you won't stop talking about yourself.

I don't like that you won't stop talking about me. How about we talk about someone else for a while?

[Lunar Martian]

And I’ve given Lunar every chance to engage with me, but when they just outright refuse to answer my questions while at the same time moaning that no-one is talking to them, then there’s nothing more I can do.

Well I do respond to your posts. And I tell you I've already answered your questions. And I tell you to point to things I haven't answered well enough. And rather than pointing to a specific case, you just say "I already did."

I did point to a specific case; the one about me or Gamma being scum.

Please read my points on Bugs, as you seem to think I only SR them due to meta.

I responded to the thing about either you or Gamma being scum. I decided that it's probably you and not Gamma.
And I don't really care much about your opinion on bugs, since I think you're Mafia. As I said.

[Lunar Martian]

Scumhunting shouldn't be dependent on others.

OK, then go do some hunting.

[Lunar Martian]

I dont this this 1v1 between Lunar and Luca is heppful for ethier party. If both of you are town then maybe chill out for a minute.

-/-/-/--/

Lunar did you see the question I asked you about Gamma?

I think the way Gamma approached me and moving votes was probably genuine. It seems like Gamma came under fire for their actions and responded in ways that were genuine. The movement seems to come from trying to solve the game rather than trying to blend in.

I was suspecting your reasoning to be tied more to to commet you made about "one of Luca/Gamma are scum this page". but these look like decently thought out reasons as well.

In a world where Town!Luca is tunneling you where would you look for scum next?

NoPower seems to be looking for reasons to think I'm Mafia right now. I really don't like now NoPower is pushing others to vote me. He's egging people on from the sidelines. His reasoning seems strange. It could be confirmation bias.

I guess this post got buried... either that or people still aren't reading my posts

[Lunar Martian]

I think of the players active in this engagement Nopower actually looks worse then the rest via him negging Lunar from the sidling's. I dont think its beyond his town game to do something like this as he loves messing with people and giving out lots of witty comebacks as a signiture part of his style. (I wanted to do a trademark symbol over "witty comebacks" but idk how lol)

Gamma looks pretty good in his approtch to all this and i feel he came to a similar conclusion I had come to before I fully came to it.

Luca looks frustrated. I think the question is if its more liekly to come from town or scum. I WANT to say it comes from town but im not sure yet. I need to think more on it. (Hence me asking)

Lunar Im still sorting rn

It would be great if all are town but idk just.

Oh so I see we view things the same way then.

[Lunar Martian]

I think I'd like to go for Trendall or OutWorldER. Failing that, NoPower or Frog.

VOTE: Trendall

[Lunar Martian]

Based on interactions on this page I don't think that OutWorldER and Frog are both Mafia. I'm leaning towards Frog being Mafia and Out being Town.

[Lunar Martian]

I'm never voting for a slot that's inactive. The odds of a replacement being Town are higher than Mafia, just because there are way more townsfolk. The odds are therefore higher that the replacement will help Town than that they will help Mafia.

[Lunar Martian]

I should maybe clarify that a lot of what is coming across as me being temperamental is mostly me being sarcastic. ORAM is town here.

[Lunar Martian]

Quick question: what are the odds that Luca is Mafia (or I guess you might say I'm Mafia) and the people saying our argument needed to end are also Mafia trying to calm things down? If any of those people ever wind up confirmed Mafia, the others probably are too, right?

[Lunar Martian]

I think Grendel is right to point out that ER has been inactive since pressure started to build on them. The pressure consequently dissipated, and they have remained inactive except a quick comment after being prodded.

[Lunar Martian]

I think of the players active in this engagement Nopower actually looks worse then the rest via him negging Lunar from the sidling's. I dont think its beyond his town game to do something like this as he loves messing with people and giving out lots of witty comebacks as a signiture part of his style. (I wanted to do a trademark symbol over "witty comebacks" but idk how lol)

Gamma looks pretty good in his approtch to all this and i feel he came to a similar conclusion I had come to before I fully came to it.

Luca looks frustrated. I think the question is if its more liekly to come from town or scum. I WANT to say it comes from town but im not sure yet. I need to think more on it. (Hence me asking)

Lunar Im still sorting rn

It would be great if all are town but idk just.

Oh so I see we view things the same way then.

This might help. As for the second question, sure.

[Lunar Martian]

If you ask questions that look rhetorical, you're gonna get answers that look absent. And if you want me to answer your questions and work with you, you could tone down the aggression a little. It's not appreciated.

[Lunar Martian]

This is like getting blood out of a stone. I’m not being aggressive, Lunar, I feel like you’re being deliberately difficult and it’s a drag having to keep chasing you for answers.

Lunar, why have you changed your view on me? Do you now TR me?

Does Bugs’ opportunism not warrant some suspicion?

I am somewhat suspicious of bugs, just like I'm at least somewhat suspicious of everyone else. At no point have I said otherwise. I just don't see most of what other people have said is suspicious.

I changed my view of you because I listened to other people who said you probably wouldn't go out of your way to pick that fight as Mafia. I have some lingering paranoia because I think maybe it was your fellow mafioso who said that. But I'm recusing myself from figuring you out, at least for now.

[Lunar Martian]

794 not a townie post.

795 is not a townie post.

[Lunar Martian]

I don't mind voting bugspray but I don't think it's the best elimination. They could be maf tho.

Grendel you're right in that I'd prefer not to compromise, but I will. The quoted post makes me particularly fine with voting for bugspray. Still prefer ER or Trendall though.

VOTE: bugspray

That should be 5 votes, or E-2.

[Lunar Martian]

If todays choices are Bugspray and Lunar Martian, I actually prefer Lunar Martian over Bug spray now. The claim is a really strange role that doesn't seem like a scum fake claim to me.

You had me as Town, but now that you prefer bugs over me suddenly bugs is Town and you think I'm Mafia? That's very odd and unexpected. I don't understand.

[Lunar Martian]

Town: bugspray, Momrangal, ORAM
Null: OutWorldER, Lunar Martian, Trendall, Frogsterking, NoPowerOverMe, Galron
Scum: Gamma Emerald, Luca Blight, Lunar Martian, Grendel

Why am I on this list twice?

Also, ER is OutWorldER, I think. That's what I meant anyway. I saw other people calling someone ER and assumed it was them.

[Lunar Martian]

Someone said earlier that bugs was a creative player. As a backup neigbor, what couldn't they come up with a better back-up fakeclaim?

Why is that one bad?

[Lunar Martian]

Someone said earlier that bugs was a creative player. As a backup neigbor, what couldn't they come up with a better back-up fakeclaim?

i literally crumbed it very early from the MOMENT i sniffed who might be in the hood

Well you said that you thought they might be in a hood. As in you outed that. But I don't see any hints that suggest you are a backup neighbor. Could you point them out?

[Lunar Martian]

For someone who everyone seems to be OK with killing, there's been a ton of push-back against killing bugs. What does that mean? Fellow Mafia are coming to defend them? A few Town are more insightful than the rest of us?
As much as a lot of people are OK with killing bugs, a lot of people seem to view it as a default vote, so it would be very easy for all the Mafia to be letting us go this direction and mostly shutting up about it.

[Lunar Martian]

It seems to me like the claim is plausible but could go either way. Then we should evaluate based on the merits of the case, right?

[Lunar Martian]

There's a little voice inside my head that's talking me into hammering bugs.

Dont. I think we need to shift off bugspray right now.

Why the urgency? And why does you thinking bugs is Town suddenly mean you don't think I'm Town anymore. You had me as Town before.

[Lunar Martian]

@Amelie

In regards to 873 I definitely think you can get accurate scum reads and that personality clashes are not going to explain everything. For one thing, the things you pointed out about Grendel are very similar to ways I've been played in the past, and had you not posted 873 I wouldn't really have been aware of that as a possibility. If the town block is indeed all town or mostly town I'm expecting them to be dying first, so when Gamma suspected you might be full of shit I wanted to talk it out with him sooner rather later.

That post was an exaggeration but I do feel like there is a play style clash of some sort between Grendel and I. I don't believe that means my scum read is definitely wrong but it is making me hesitate.

so are we gonna elim lm, amelie, or ower today? i will hammer anyone but myself rn and when its like an hour to go i'll selfhammer too

Lunar Martian is the popular pick and I think we need to hurry otherwise we might not have enough time to ask for a claim.

lunar softed being a tpr

I didn't see that but if Lunar did soft it, I'd like confirmation that Lunar is not vt. A quick yes/no from Lunar would be enough for me. Not vt could mean a lot of things so I'd just like confirmation. If Lunar says that yes, they are not vt, I believe everyone needs to unvote and we need to have some lengthy discussions about where to go.

Wait. It's the opposite. bugs is town.

Sorry, I'm used to games with daytalk, so that change in rules means bugs just town told instead of scum told.

Please explain this. I don't see where Bugspray scum or town told.

We're just discussing if the fake claim is viable or not. I'm leaning no, because he hasn't been very active and I feel with a lame role like backup neighbor he'd be more active.

who are you talking about? my pronouns are they/them

I'm sorry, I don't check a players pronoun every time I make a post. You seem more concerned about your pronouns than finding scum though.

Please pay attention to pronouns. You should check if you are unsure.

Yeah I never ever give that yes/no. And I think that you asking that probably makes you Mafia.

[Lunar Martian]

Oof dislike the way this went down. I hope you all prove me wrong about ORAM though.

[Lunar Martian]

VOTE: lunar marian

Why?

[Lunar Martian]

leading a shit-push against an LHF slot and then immediately opening the second day by pushing another LHF slot that protested that same wagon

yeah okay

VOTE: Frogsterking

I'm pretty confident on Frogster/Bugspray now, but I'm holding off on pushing them for the time being since I want them to share info from Amelie's hood, assuming their claim is real (if they get CC'd they're getting turbo-elimmed immediately though).

Actually I don't think Mafia would be quite that blatant, so I'm thinking Frogster is town and just really off-base here. I'm more convinced that bugspray is Mafia and the Mafia came out swinging hard today. I'm very suspicious of Galron now.

[Lunar Martian]

*@ALL*

Looking over yesterday I'd love some GtH reads on Luca, Momrangul, and Trendel from anybody available to do so

Without re-reading at all: Town, Mafia, Mafia?

[Lunar Martian]

I'm still agnostic on Bugs tbh, probably town lean. Their willingness to share info from the hood but only after getting the okay doesn't seem like something mafia would do.

Why don't you think Mafia would do that? This feels like a cheap attempt at simulating re-evaluation.

[Lunar Martian]

The more I look at Lunar's recent, the less I want to eliminate there today. They're starting to look like defensive town rather than defensive scum.

UNVOTE: Lunar Martian

How is anything I've said today different than yesterday? If both Town and Mafia could be defensive, what makes you think I'm town suddenly?

[Lunar Martian]

This game feels like it's simpler than it seems and Mafia are mostly coasting by in low-activity slots. Every time we pressure someone they turn out to be Town, or get protected by a claim. That suggests that the scum are in slots we aren't pressuring, or are protected by claims.

I think these people are Town: Luca (a grudging Townread, I think he's overconfident and should chill out a bit), Frogster (same as Luca), NoPower (or am I confused?), OutWorldER, Grendel. Galron I go back and forth on.

That leaves these people: bugs, Mom, Gamma (and Gamma is probably town), and Trendall.

Without a major revelation I don't think I want to eliminate outside of those four today.

[Lunar Martian]

I was confused. Add NoPower to the potential Mafia list.

[Lunar Martian]

My hero solve looks something like: NoPower, bugs, Trendall. Throw in Mom for an extra, and put Gamma in the Town boat.
I think I'd prefer to kill bugs or NoPower today, and I don't know how many other people are willing to go bugs, so VOTE: NoPower

[Lunar Martian]

I took a look at Trendall's posts, and here is a (rather long) post with some highlights. After reading this I like my hero solve a lot more. Trendall has not done a whole lot this game except sheep me, defend me, discredit Frogster's pseudo-psychoanalysis, and try not to take firm stands.

I think this page says either Gamma or Luca is Mafia.

I agree with this post and happy to get either of those players.

Sheeping me.

Actually not Luca necessarily, it's more that I'm happy to eliminate Gamma.

Changes his mind for ??? reason, but suggests that Trendall is not Mafia with Gamma.

The NoPowerOverMe wagon sounds like it has been generated or influenced by mafia, yeah.

Discredits the NoPower wagon but doesn't really give any reasoning or alternatives.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: OutWorldER

He hadn't even mentioned ER prior to this, no reasoning given, but I think this vote is sheeping me, as I recall.

Lunar Martian seems like town to me.

Now I start to come under pressure and who is there to defend me? Trendall.

Actually I don't think either of these wagons now are any good.

This is a pretty cheap statement to make with no reasoning, and suggests possible TMI.

I had a look at Lunar's ISO and I didn't find anything wrong with them really.

Again, defending me.

You know Luca I was thinking about your case and I actually don't believe the meta change is AI, I think Lunar did better in the Newbie game because he was only in one game and the other players were new.

And there are fewer players (9 instead of 13 makes a huge difference), there are different players, it's an open setup, the roles are more basic, it took place at a different time in their life.....

Really doubling down on defending me. It kind of feels like an attempt to pocket me.

I don't mind voting bugspray but I don't think it's the best elimination. They could be maf tho.

So what exactly is Trendall's opinion of bugs? Can anyone tell me after reading this post? Feels like being unsure how to approach a wagon on a fellow Mafia.

I love personality tests and all this sort of thing, I just think the way that you in particular are trying to apply them to this game is bad.

Discrediting Frogster features heavily in Trendall's posts.

I don't see how scum!Trendall or scum!bugs are expecting to win the game playing today the way they have, unless they are expecting OutWorldER or some deep scum to carry them.

I'm in favour of eliminating OutWorldER though.

This suggests that ER is town and bugs is Mafia.

For me Grendel really just reminds me of another player I played a game with who I was sorta low-key suspicious of all game and then just eventually turned out to be town.

Another statement that's super cheap to make. It doesn't actually say anything and allows Trendall to come down on either side later.

VOTE: Trendall

Again, sorry that's so long.

[Lunar Martian]

Town shouldn't require pressure to get content.

Two votes isn't exactly pressure. Note how after calling me town and pressuring me all day yesterday now that I finger him, Trendall votes me "because there was a fair amount of support for eliminating Lunar yesterday" and wants to "get it done now".

[Lunar Martian]

Finally some decent content from Lunar. I’m not sure why it took you so long.

@Grendel

: Momrangal is one of the slots I fully intend on reviewing today.

It's my first venture out of Newbie games. I'm still learning and it took me a while to find my legs.

[Lunar Martian]

Now I start to come under pressure and who is there to defend me? Trendall.

Why is this a big deal?

It's just odd, since Trendall seemed very confident I was Town but never really explained why other than "there's nothing bad there".

[Lunar Martian]

It's just odd, since Trendall seemed very confident

I did two posts about you I think. One said

"Lunar Martian seems like town to me"

and the other said

"I had a look at Lunar's ISO and I didn't find anything wrong with them really"

. If you want to interpret that as somebody who is 'very confident' then there's not a lot I can do about that.

If you weren't confident why go out of your way to defend me the way you did?

[Lunar Martian]

You reckon I 'went out of my way' by typing those two sentences?

I mean I quoted four separate posts.

[Lunar Martian]

The story keeps changing.

[Lunar Martian]

To tldr my case:
1) Lack of real solving.
2) Making a lot of statements that sound like solving but are empty.
3) Making statements that sound like solving but allow Trendall not to take a stance either way and come down later.
4) The strange progression on me.
5) Discrediting people, especially Frogster
6) Now the repeated deflection of my pressure and changing story explaining point number 4.

[Lunar Martian]

Lunar Martian seems like town to me.

Actually I don't think either of these wagons now are any good.

I had a look at Lunar's ISO and I didn't find anything wrong with them really.

You know Luca I was thinking about your case and I actually don't believe the meta change is AI, I think Lunar did better in the Newbie game because he was only in one game and the other players were new.

And there are fewer players (9 instead of 13 makes a huge difference), there are different players, it's an open setup, the roles are more basic, it took place at a different time in their life.....

who is there to defend me? Trendall.

Lol I won't waste my time then. Let's all get this then because there was a fair amount of support for eliminating Lunar yesterday, so we can just like, get it done now.

VOTE: Lunar Martian

It's just odd, since Trendall seemed very confident

I did two posts about you I think. One said

"Lunar Martian seems like town to me"

and the other said

"I had a look at Lunar's ISO and I didn't find anything wrong with them really"

. If you want to interpret that as somebody who is 'very confident' then there's not a lot I can do about that.

You reckon I 'went out of my way' by typing those two sentences?

Like wow I had a town read on somebody

These are all the relevant posts.

[Lunar Martian]

Please note that Trendall didn't mention me between defending me and having a town read on me to now thinking I'm Mafia and wanting me dead.

[Lunar Martian]

I don’t like calling it a recruit
That sounds like someone picked us out to join the hood, when it was just RNG that enabled that

Really? What's the randomness involved?

[Lunar Martian]

I looked through the mini normal archives and the only game that had two backups of the same role was a game that had two backup IC's, but no actual IC, so not really comparable to this game.

There have been four members of the hood in total now, right? It would be highly unusual if they were all Town.

I’m not entirely enthused by this mindset regarding the hood
Imo neighborhoods shouldn’t be used as a PoE subset where someone

has to be

scum in it

And yet it seems likely that someone is. You trying to encourage us not to think so makes me question you. A few Gamma posts recently have really made me question my thinking about Gamma.

[Lunar Martian]

I looked through the mini normal archives and the only game that had two backups of the same role was a game that had two backup IC's, but no actual IC, so not really comparable to this game.

There have been four members of the hood in total now, right? It would be highly unusual if they were all Town.

I’m not entirely enthused by this mindset regarding the hood
Imo neighborhoods shouldn’t be used as a PoE subset where someone

has to be

scum in it

And yet it seems likely that someone is. You trying to encourage us not to think so makes me question you. A few Gamma posts recently have really made me question my thinking about Gamma.

[Lunar Martian]

I'm standing by my behavioral reads that scum are mostly or completely in Lunar/bugs/OutWorldER/Trendall, and that they're now attempting to dig themselves out of the priority of elimination. I think Lunar and OutWorldER are demonstrating this behavior the most clearly.

Lunar's surprising and compelling case on Trendall followed by Trendall's reaction is definitely my favorite thing I've seen all game, and made them both look worse IMO.

I didn't really read Gamma as scum at ALL yesterday but being traitor I could see more so.

A psychologist might call this confirmation bias.

[Lunar Martian]

Knowing who is in the hood would've helpped me slove the game i think. But now you cant do that without narrowing the PoE for scum hunting town prs significantly.

If you're going to 'solve the game', then actually he can, and it makes no difference because town will just eliminate all the mafia anyway. Like you tell us who the mafia are, we eliminate one tonight, then they kill a PR, then we get the second mafia, then...until we have won. So actually the only remaining thing that needs to happen in this game is that bugs tells Grendel who's in the neighbourhood and we're only a few posts away from this game being done and dusted.

How are people still not voting Trendall?

[Lunar Martian]

Lunar's surprising and compelling case on Trendall

Which to reiterate is 'Trendall had a townread on me and is therefore mafia'

Actually that wasn't the main point. It's the only point you've responded to though.

[Lunar Martian]

Frogster, does the fact Grendel was the first to point out that Lunar is a potential Town PR change your view on the supposed Bugs townslip?

Frogster, does the fact Grendel was the first to point out that Lunar is a potential Town PR change your view on the supposed Bugs townslip?

Yes.

And it makes me consider that of the Lunar/bugs/OutWorldER/Trendall box, Trendall is the townie, which is the impetus for Lunar's case.

Top tier logic over here: someone made a compelling case on someone I think is Mafie. Because the case is so compelling, they must be Town.

[Lunar Martian]

Does scum choose to 1v1 you here rather than just kill you? Granted, it's possible Amelie might have taken a bullet for you, but I'm still not sure scum would approach it in this manner.

I'm much more used to passive scum players to be honest. Scum who have an active agenda and plan are pretty few and far between from my experience.

I'll stay open minded though if you want to do that scum case.

Interesting, I'm more used to teams with 1 scum that has an active agenda and tries to plan, at least in some capacity, while the others are either passive or try to follow.

And I'll stay open minded to OutWorldER being the town in Lunar/Bugs/OutWorldER/Trendall or that my PoE is wrong.

Yeah you're way too cocky right now. Please take a second to reset and try to look at things objectively.

[Lunar Martian]

Lunar's surprising and compelling case on Trendall

Which to reiterate is 'Trendall had a townread on me and is therefore mafia'

I'm standing by my behavioral reads that scum are mostly or completely in Lunar/bugs/OutWorldER/Trendall, and that they're now attempting to dig themselves out of the priority of elimination. I think Lunar and OutWorldER are demonstrating this behavior the most clearly.

Lunar's surprising and compelling case on Trendall followed by Trendall's reaction is definitely my favorite thing I've seen all game, and made them both look worse IMO.

I didn't really read Gamma as scum at ALL yesterday but being traitor I could see more so.

Why does LM’s case on Trendall make LM look worse?

Okay, so? If you have an issue with that logic, then would the case really be that “compelling”? And in vice versa, why would something like that make LM scum even when the case is compelling?

In my mind it looked like Lunar was just trying to save themselves. It's possible I was just tunneling.

Yes.

[Lunar Martian]

I'm more confident in Trendall than in bugs, but if no one else is going to vote bugs today I'll switch. Could I ask everyone to give me a reason they don't want to vote Trendall though?

[Lunar Martian]

I'm more confident in Trendall than in bugs, but if no one else is going to vote bugs today I'll switch. Could I ask everyone to give me a reason they don't want to vote Trendall though?

I think Trendell and Bugs are both town.

OK, why?

[Lunar Martian]

Frogster, I thought you were going to rethink and not just tunnel me anymore.

[Lunar Martian]

Right now I see two competing theories:

1) Luca, OutWorldER and Lunar are town, Bugs is obvscum possibly along with Trendall and there are one or more deep scum.

2) Galron, Trendall and Bugs are town, Lunar and OutWorldER are obvscum and there is one deep scum who in this scenario I propose as Gamma.

I don't see how in one possibility one person can be 'obvious' and in another possibility the same person can be town. And 'obvscum possibly' is like...

That's a strange thing to latch onto. Clearly it's two competing and mutually exclusive theories. Why are you trying to discredit Frogster so consistently?

[Lunar Martian]

And if something is 'obvious' then that should supersede the different theories and apply across all of them.

The implication was that given A, B becomes obvious. But A isn't known to be true.

[Lunar Martian]

I sort of disagree with that analysis. I didn't understand the storytelling question either. We all tell stories and use metaphor unless (except some neuro atypical people). Even neuro atypical will recount memories, etc., which is a form of storytelling. What sort of stories do we tell is more relevant I think. Questions 7-9 are more interesting. Pretty much everyone admits that noble lies are acceptable, except maybe Kantians. We all put on a persona somewhat when we go online, so it seems odd that he wouldn't know what to lie about. And I feel like everyone knows how good a liar they are, especially if they do sometimes lie. There's a bit of a disconnect between saying he never really lies but then also talking about how friends react to his lies.

To be clear Trendall, I'm not saying nor do I think that you're a bad person. I feel like this is treading dangerously close to making judgments about your character IRL, and I just want to say that despite talking about you lying, I don't think you're a bad person or anything. I tell plenty of lies. I'm only really talking about any of this in an effort to determine whether you're Mafia in this game.

[Lunar Martian]

I sort of disagree with that analysis. I didn't understand the storytelling question either. We all tell stories and use metaphor unless (except some neuro atypical people). Even neuro atypical will recount memories, etc., which is a form of storytelling.

#1 What sort of stories do we tell is more relevant I think.

Questions 7-9 are more interesting. Pretty much everyone admits that noble lies are acceptable, except maybe Kantians. We all put on a persona somewhat when we go online, so it seems odd that he wouldn't know what to lie about. And I feel like everyone knows how good a liar they are, especially if they do sometimes lie. There's a bit of a disconnect between saying he never really lies but then also talking about how friends react to his lies.

To be clear Trendall, I'm not saying nor do I think that you're a bad person.

#2 I feel like this is treading dangerously close to making judgments about your character IRL, and I just want to say that despite talking about you lying, I don't think you're a bad person or anything. I tell plenty of lies. I'm only really talking about any of this in an effort to determine whether you're Mafia in this game.

#1

That's a great point and that would be a much better question.

#2

Same here, I don't think Trendall lies or does anything wrong IRL, and it was not my intention to attack him as a person, it was my intention to show how I believe he happens to be lying and attacking everything I say in this specific game, and there is probably a reason for it (scum flip).

To be clear I also wasn't trying to passive-aggressively say you were over the line. I was just feeling like what I said could be interpreted as rude even though it wasn't intended to cause harm in any way, and I didn't think anything I was saying was an attack in any way.

[Lunar Martian]

Despite everything else, I still feel pretty confident for other reasons that Trendall is Mafia, and Gamma's post there as well as a few others recently suggest that we are on the right track and Mafia is trying to organize to shift momentum.

[Lunar Martian]

I still feel pretty confident for other reasons that Trendall is Mafia

Still thinkin' about that mega suspicious town read I had on you huh?

The straw man graveyard is filling up really fast. Soon we will be all out of straw men and will have to address the real arguments though.

[Lunar Martian]

So you think I'm misrepresenting what you're saying, right? Do you think I'm doing it on purpose? What do you think my motives are?

[Lunar Martian]

Which scenario do you think is more likely and why?

[Lunar Martian]

"Well then why are you voting for me then?! TRENDALL SLIPPED!"

were you lining up for roughly something like that to be your next post? be honest

No, if you re-evaluate now you can always unvote if you decide you think I'm town. I take that response to mean you do think it's more likely that I'm town though. People change their minds all the time.

[Lunar Martian]

Also don't mind Frogster, he didn't mean anything by it and also isn't as good at reading people as he thinks. It's only a game with strange internet people. We don't know anything.

[Lunar Martian]

I feel like every time Gamma posts I become more convinced that he's posting with some agenda rather than because he's trying to solve the game.

[Lunar Martian]

Also don't mind Frogster, he didn't mean anything by it and also isn't as good at reading people as he thinks. It's only a game with strange internet people. We don't know anything.

Okay if I change my vote again it’s going to this, this looks awful

Yeah being nice to people is really awful, how dare I.

[Lunar Martian]

That post doesn’t read as nice, it reads as condescending. “Strange internet people”? That sort of rhetoric serves no purpose than to aggress others. Why are the people strange to you??? And saying “his reads aren’t that great” is not a good look when he also suspects you.
VOTE: Lunar Martian
Nah fuck this. When I break it down that post is loaded with blatant discrediting.

I am one of those strange internet people. What are you talking about? Frogsters reads are probably OK, I just mean his psychoanalysis.

[Lunar Martian]

That post doesn’t read as nice, it reads as condescending. “Strange internet people”? That sort of rhetoric serves no purpose than to aggress others. Why are the people strange to you??? And saying “his reads aren’t that great” is not a good look when he also suspects you.
VOTE: Lunar Martian
Nah fuck this. When I break it down that post is loaded with blatant discrediting.

I am one of those strange internet people. What are you talking about? Frogsters reads are probably OK, I just mean his psychoanalysis.

That doesn’t change that nothing about that tone seemed polite or respectful. I still think you were shading him.

OK. You're wrong. I was just saying something to cheer Trendall up a bit, it had nothing to do with the game. It really wasn't much of a dig at Frogster either.

[Lunar Martian]

Votecount 2.5

Trendall(3)

~ Lunar Martian(44), NoPowerOverMe(15), Frogsterking(56)

bugspray(2)

~ OutWorldER(9), Luca Blight(55)

Momrangal(1)

~ Grendel(17)


Not Voting (5): Trendall(34), Momrangal(7), bugspray(9), Gamma Emerald(21), Galron(7)

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch.

Day 2 deadline is in (expired on 2021-01-13 20:42:20)

FLAVOR

frame 19 out of 19035

This vote count gave me pause because everyone voting was someone I think is Town. But immediately after it two people I don't think are Town place votes. Very interesting.

[Lunar Martian]

Mommrangual scum clears Outworlder as town as that was her most aggressive push. Outworlder push was there to save Scum!bugs from a flip. IDK what other's reasons. She also had some movement towards gamma when she got cuaght up today, meanwhile was looking past some reads she had on plays at EoD. Which could def be a pivot away from having to risk flipping bugs/lunar/trendall today. I'd say Trendel definitely looks worse via associates b/c despite being in Momrang's PoE pool most of D1 she always seemed to prioritize other slots.

bugs and Mommrangual D1 interactions did look pretty bad. But I had a silly pet theory about the neighborhood b/c i didnt realize that the back ups were picked via rng. I thought that the Mod being a more "Mindgamey" character would have this large hood all town to screw with peoples heads. XD

Lucia looks more town now that i consider how hard he was bussing meanwhile Momrangul was trying to shift the D1 Bugs wagon elsewhere. Seems like a clash that a team who are fimilar with each other are less likely to have. Its not impossible, but its definitely unlikely.

Roles were assigned randomly to people, but I think each role was created and then assigned. Its not like roles were assigned and then a few people were randomly given backup neighbor. That's why the RNG thing is misleading and I don't trust Gamma for saying that. It's a really strange argument that doesn't make sense based on my understanding of the way games are created and approved. It's true that roles were given out randomly, but the alignment of each role is not random. The only random aspect is who has the role. Right?

[Lunar Martian]

I think all the Mafia are within Mom, Trendall, bugs, and Gamma. I guess I'll vote either person we have a guilty on today and tomorrow, and then I have a preference for Trendall over Gamma the following day.

Question though: how would a tracker have a guilty? Especially if Amelie wasn't the intended kill? Or was Amelie targeted by Mom?

[Lunar Martian]

All the roles are created during the game creation process approved by the game reviewers and assigned randomly as far as I know.

So the notion that two people were randomly added to the neighborhood is wrong. They seemed to imply that the randomness made them more likely Town and a few people bought that.

[Lunar Martian]

Frogster that case on me is garbage. I didn't try to pocket Trendall or leave open the option of pushing Trendall. I scumread Trendall the whole time, which is a pretty bad way to pocket someone. I was just trying to be nice after someone else decided to be a bit rude. Just yesterday you acknowledged that you went too far and that I was fair in my criticism of you, but today you come and try to spin it as me discrediting you. What happened there? And then part of your case is that I ignored the guilties. I was already voting there, so why is it a bad thing that I kept trying to solve the game outside the guilties? Especially when one of them turned out to be fake.

[Lunar Martian]

Hmm actually I didn't move my vote. VOTE: Mom

[Lunar Martian]

Frogster as someone who seems incredibly prone to confirmation bias, I think maybe you should be extra careful with reaction tests. Either you are a Mafia God who basically solved the game Day 1, or you saw exactly what you wanted to see from that test. I still think you're more likely to be Town than Mafia, but I feel like you're verging on being a liability.

[Lunar Martian]

Frogster that case on me is garbage. I didn't try to pocket Trendall or leave open the option of pushing Trendall. I scumread Trendall the whole time, which is a pretty bad way to pocket someone. I was just trying to be nice after someone else decided to be a bit rude. Just yesterday you acknowledged that you went too far and that I was fair in my criticism of you, but today you come and try to spin it as me discrediting you. What happened there? And then part of your case is that I ignored the guilties. I was already voting there, so why is it a bad thing that I kept trying to solve the game outside the guilties? Especially when one of them turned out to be fake.

I agree that I made a huge mistake, and I don't think your immediate follow up where you were directly addressing Trendall was an attempt to pocket, I think those things were genuine in contrast to what you said immediately after. I was trying to just quote the relevant parts to my case but they kind of blur together and I messed it up a little bit.

I think between you and Trendall at this point you are less likely to be town than Trendall. I don't think you can get credit for ignoring a fake guilty you had no reason to believe is fake at the time, that sounds more like TMI, and the way you continued pushing your case looks more to me like you were not really surprised that Momrangal is scum, even though you hadn't suspected her before, and she is pushing one of your same targets, Gamma, and it doesn't look like that gave you much pause either.

Hmm actually I didn't move my vote. VOTE: Mom

Do you not see how suspicious this looks?

It's only TMI if bugs is Town. And I don't know if bugs is Town. But you would have to know bugs is Town to say that it's TMI. I didn't react to the guilties because neither one was surprising. They didn't really change anything. Prior to the guilties my four picks for Mafia were Mom, bugs, Trendall, and Gamma. After the guilties it was the same four. Now maybe add you in because you're acting strange as hell and I don't see this kind of ridiculous logic and tunneling coming from someone who really wants to solve the game. It's probably Town and you're just confused or emotional or something, but if you're Town at this point I think your play is awful and you should take a step back and rethink.

[Lunar Martian]

Shower thought: Trendall's arguments with me very much feel like Trendall thinks I have bad intentions in the argument, which suggests that Trendall legitimately thinks I'm Mafia, which means Trendall must be Town. That said, Trendall's latest posts saying "I'm Town" repeatedly make me think Trendall is Mafia. Trendall is probably Town, but I'm going to need to rethink that. Getting other perspectives might be helpful too since I'm a little bit too close to get a good read at this point, since I can't see the bigger picture outside of my fight with Trendall very much.

[Lunar Martian]

I can't TMI bugs' alignment for 2 reasons:
1) It's unclear whether bugs is Town or not.
2) I don't know bugs' alignment.
You therefore can't say I'm TMI'ing bugs being Town without knowing bugs' alignment yourself.

The last bit is my subjective evaluation of your play. It can't be wrong, as there is no right answer per se.

[Lunar Martian]

You skipped providing any notes on both Galron and Luca.

And me I think.

[Lunar Martian]

VOTE: bugs

Also bugs in what world would flipping me clear you?

[Lunar Martian]

Assume there's at least one Mafia member in the neighbor chat.

[Lunar Martian]

Assume there's at least one Mafia member in the neighbor chat.

is this a request or a statement of your thinking?

It's more a warning that there's pretty likely to be one, so be careful claiming stuff in there.

[Lunar Martian]

Please don't talk in the hood unless there's like PR-related information you want to conceal or some kind of play you need to make that requires not informing the thread. Otherwise please discuss stuff here because the game's going to get really confusing if you two are forming reads on each other via posts we can't observe.

Strongly disagree. That totally negates this potentially really useful tool for sharing information privately and using another avenue to coordinate or sort people. Is joqiza Mafia indicating that the hood is all-Town? Maybe.

[Lunar Martian]

welp, at the very least now I’m 100% confident that tehre’s scum among [luca/bug], not 80 like I was before

thank you thank you

it was probably still worth it

I think both remaining Mafia will be found in those two and Gamma. Kinda still think Luca is Town, but I'll feel very good about my Day 1 if Luca is Mafia.

[Lunar Martian]

Your avatar or the shit you talked about my PoE is not even remotely helping your case right now.

I’d appreciate it if you didn’t attack me directly.

If my avatar triggers you, please tell me that privately and I’ll change it.
If you disagree with my reads, please comment on those I elaborated on.

If I ever insulted you, I’m sorry. I didn’t mean it. I will try to be nicer in the future
Please do the same. Let’s not make this game toxic

I will be triggered if you change your avatar.

[Lunar Martian]

Either way I think 'lunatic' is a bit harsh, even if you didn't mean it to be.

[Lunar Martian]

UNVOTE: For now. Vote is there in spirit probably, but there's something odd going on and its too early to end the day anyway.

[Lunar Martian]

Galron is kind of obvTown. It's probably Gamma, but otherwise maybe Luca.

[Lunar Martian]

Galron and I have been on the same page about a whole lot of stuff and Galron has made a number of posts I feel Mafia never makes. I can go dig up some posts if you really want, joqiza.

Luca's recent posting has me increasingly convinced that Luca is Mafia.

[Lunar Martian]

Lunar you're so done now.

HAHA that's not surprising. Confirmation bias is the most powerful force in the universe.

[Lunar Martian]

Interesting that you sound more like your D1 persona now that you've gotten Luca to townread you.

I wasn't joking when I said you were done. This isn't a tunnel I'm making for you, this is a coffin.

That's fine, but the more confident you are the more I'll hold it over your head in the future.

[Lunar Martian]

Lunar you're so done now.

HAHA that's not surprising. Confirmation bias is the most powerful force in the universe.

Bad post.

Bad post.

[Lunar Martian]

Intent to hammer.

[Lunar Martian]

Also, I knew confirmation bias was the most powerful force in the universe, but this is on a level I've never seen before. I might have discovered confirmation bias' power source here.

[Lunar Martian]

I like how me being right plays into me being Mafia.

[Lunar Martian]

I like how me being right plays into me being Mafia.

you’re scum-reading BOTH luca and bug. You literally can’t be right lol

I'm probably not right on both of them. My solve is bugs and Gamma. I just also find Luca suspicious. I just meant that every time I was right about something, Frogs used that to justify the scumread on me. It's funny. And I'm not going to hammer right away. My reasons for unvoting still stand. But I just wanted to state intent as a way to begin lording Frogster's bad read and tunnel on me over his head.

[Lunar Martian]

VOTE: Bugspray
I almost completely agree with the case and my one concern doesn’t really weaken it at all

I’m sorry for being rude but do you have any original reads?

That vote screams to me "Ahhhh my partner is going down and someone was just encouraged to vote, I need to make sure I get on that wagon ASAP!"

[Lunar Martian]

I'm not saying Mafia don't bus. But your argument is "This person correctly scumread someone. Therefore, Mafia." It's trashcan logic.

[Lunar Martian]

VOTE: Bugspray
I almost completely agree with the case and my one concern doesn’t really weaken it at all

I’m sorry for being rude but do you have any original reads?

Technically that’s my read to begin with. But besides that I’ve had plenty of original reads I’d say.
Also I was hesitant on voting but decided I wanted to put Lunar to the test. He didn’t do the first thing I expected him to do as scum but that doesn’t mean he’s town to me, I don’t like how he’s pushing me here.

You expected me as Mafia to hammer there? Also, if this was your read and you were so keen on it, why weren't you on the wagon before E-1?

[Lunar Martian]

I don’t know what it means if bugs is scum
I know that I absolutely hate that attitude in case of him being town

The result will be clear after 1 lynch anyway.

This also doesn’t look great

Also don’t like ejji calling me vs. Lunar TvT like that.

I must admit I agree with this. Interesting.

[Lunar Martian]

Ah well given that it was based on a factual error, I retract my agreement. More confident on Gamma now.

[Lunar Martian]

quitting the TvT would be appreciated.
Focusing on bugs/luca instead would be great as well

...or just waiting for me to write my case
a few hours really won’t kill you

I have one million percent certainty the final pair is Bugs/Lunar. Lunar can't hammer because of autoloss.

I have been kindly asked not to hammer yet. Just keep ignoring the facts and everything happening in the thread, and twist literally everything I say into reasons I'm Mafia. Tbh, at this point I'm kind of egging you on because it's pretty entertaining.

[Lunar Martian]

There's over a week until deadline. I'll probably hammer sometime tomorrow, but might wait until Saturday to give everyone at least 24 hours to post thoughts before night.

[Lunar Martian]

I was talking about frogster vs lunar TvT.

Yeah so? Lunar and your predecessor clashed in a similar way, would be convenient for you if people saw that as TvT no? But I feel like Lunar agreeing with me and then retracting like he did is the actually scum-indicative thing her vs. you seeming to be pushing things that I think are self-serving.

I retracted because the facts changed. It would be weird to call me vs you a TvT. I don't think it's strange to call me vs Frogster a TvT. Although the longer Frogster's tunnel on me continues the more paranoid I get.

[Lunar Martian]

Lunar, if the reason for your brief pro town change in playstyle at the beginning of D2 --where you actually appeared to be trying to scum hunt and explain your reads and interact with other players-- was because you were getting used to Normals, why are you regressing back into your D1 persona now? Are you getting un-used to them?

I think I've solved the game. I'm just biding my time while people say what they need to. I'll reconsider tomorrow if I'm proven wrong.

[Lunar Martian]

Lunar, if the reason for your brief pro town change in playstyle at the beginning of D2 --where you actually appeared to be trying to scum hunt and explain your reads and interact with other players-- was because you were getting used to Normals, why are you regressing back into your D1 persona now? Are you getting un-used to them?

I think I've solved the game. I'm just biding my time while people say what they need to. I'll reconsider tomorrow if I'm proven wrong.

Why don't you case it then?

Well it seems enough people are on board with bugs dying that I don't have to. As for Gamma, we will see. With two red flips there'll be plenty to go on to re-think and make sure I'm not also just tunneling.

[Lunar Martian]

Lunar, if the reason for your brief pro town change in playstyle at the beginning of D2 --where you actually appeared to be trying to scum hunt and explain your reads and interact with other players-- was because you were getting used to Normals, why are you regressing back into your D1 persona now? Are you getting un-used to them?

I think I've solved the game. I'm just biding my time while people say what they need to. I'll reconsider tomorrow if I'm proven wrong.

Lunar, if the reason for your brief pro town change in playstyle at the beginning of D2 --where you actually appeared to be trying to scum hunt and explain your reads and interact with other players-- was because you were getting used to Normals, why are you regressing back into your D1 persona now? Are you getting un-used to them?

I think I've solved the game. I'm just biding my time while people say what they need to. I'll reconsider tomorrow if I'm proven wrong.

Why don't you case it then?

I believe you are fence sitting right now to avoid having to explain your reads on the spot. When evaluating your slot in iso it becomes clear that your reads are very ambivalent and the only thing you've explained is your scum read on the Trendall slot. For anyone that missed, I went over all of this in 1589.

What do you mean fence-sitting? I'm taking some pretty firm stances here. Bugs and Gamma. Maybe Luca or Trendall. Everyone else is Town. Pretty confident in that. I even think I was probably wrong about Trendall. Ejji seems pretty Town.

[Lunar Martian]

Lunar is close to lock town on their own, they tunneled bugs for the majority of the game while mom jumped casually between unrelated wagons

Lunar didn’t really stick to the bugs scumread when it counted I believe

When was that? Early Day 1 I had bugs at null when there was a bugs wagon, but as the wagon faded I changed my mind and ever since then I've been pretty consistent. I'd say that when it counts is now, and I'm going to hammer.

[Lunar Martian]

Never close to being eliminated until the Tracker had a guilty on them, anyway.

That's true in one game, but in my other scum game I was put to E-1 Day 1, saved by a claim, and suspicion remained on me throughout the game, but the claim saved me.

[Lunar Martian]

Have people said what they want to say today?

[Lunar Martian]

@mod

Could we get a prod on Galron?

I'll wait for Galron and Joqiza to post before hammer. I believe everyone else who is alive has posted recently.

[Lunar Martian]

Other than bugs who is conspicuously absent.

[Lunar Martian]

Hmm I Think I was mixing up Galron and Grendel. Galron is not obvtown. I'll re-read Galron later. I think it's highly unlikely that the entire hood was Town PRs with back-up townies to fill in. Much more Likely, A Town PR hood got infiltrated or wasn't all Town to begin with.

[Lunar Martian]

Can we consolidate on Lunar and Bugspray? I'm less convinced that Bugs is scum than Lunar, but there seems to be a lack of focus and we need to elim someone. My take on Bugs is pure meta. I haven't seen anything different from them this game than others I've been in with them. They're almost always on the rack early game -- it's a style thing with Bugs I think. Lunar, on the other hand, just feels scummy to me, a dose of AtE along with caught in the headlights.

Being willing to go bugspray early is interesting. At the same time though, Galron is pushing the wagon towards me and away from bugs.

I'm willing to go Oram or Lunar Martian.

Suddenly Galron isn't willing to go bugs after all. No explanation is given, but bugs becomes a Townread and Galron never really shows any evidence of sorting bugs or anyone else.

It's about too late to claim and cfd. I'd say you're good to hammer npom. 6 hours left.

Encouraging a hammer.

I'm still agnostic on Bugs tbh, probably town lean. Their willingness to share info from the hood but only after getting the okay doesn't seem like something mafia would do.

This is a strange reason to Townread someone in my view, but I suppose I'm not sure how hoods normally work.

I'm suspicious of the people who want to get rid of Bugs, who is a conduit to the hood, but not Gamma. It wasn't until recently that Gamma even shared anything from the hood, if I recall correctly.

Again, this is a strange reason to Townread someone, especially since Galron could easily share info from the hood himself if he wanted.

[Lunar Martian]

There certainly is a VI.

[Lunar Martian]

There certainly is a VI.

1601

Yeah I'm not sure what that proves other than that there is a scenario where I'm Mafia. You're picking and choosing what evidence to pay attention to.

[Lunar Martian]

VOTE: Luca

Doing this so Luca can make an omgus claim.

Sell us on this?

[Lunar Martian]

VOTE: bugspray

Back to E-1.

[Lunar Martian]

what is a tmi? i get it means too much information but i don't get it in this context deadass

Frogster (not knowing how traitor works on this site) thinks that you and Mom were trying to signal to Lunar your folks alignment.
Your response is: "Flip Lunar to clear me". In this context, the thing that would clear you would be Lunar flipping Town, so it sounds like, ya know, you know Lunar's town.

What? I thought a red lunar flip would confirm me in that case but I've been barely reading this game

How would that confirm you?

[Lunar Martian]

VOTE: bugs

Also bugs in what world would flipping me clear you?

Gamma ignored this question last it was asked.

[Lunar Martian]

i don't get how flip lm to clear me is tmi
there's two outcomes
1) lm flips town and that clears me but I don't remember why
2) lm flips scum and we get a scum elim
it's win win because with me proven green we have a very good poe pool for yeetlo and can sinch a town win

Scenario 2 doesn't clear you. Scenario 1 could clear you if people think we are only ever Mafia if both of us are, so that would only clear you if you know I'm Town. Hence why I asked about it and others think its a slip too.

[Lunar Martian]

There is scum in the hood.

[Lunar Martian]

There is scum in the hood.

are you sure? they eliminiated a tpr outside the hood when they could have nk one of the two claimed investigative roles in the hood

The PR they killed had claimed. I'm pretty sure.

[Lunar Martian]

I claimed investigative Night 1, before bugspray or gamma were in the hood.

Any other results?

[Lunar Martian]

I claimed the green check on NPOM's slot.

I claimed investigative Night 1, before bugspray or gamma were in the hood.

You claimed invest during N1? Why would you do that?

Why would you invest NPOM who was one or the townier slots in the game? Why not invest Frogster who you seemed more suspicious of?

Out of 12 players to choose from, I narrowed it down to wanting to confirm the so-called town bloc or the people who had claimed, and NPOM overlapped, so he was a good place to start.

You can figure out why I claimed and the timing of the claim if you try hard enough.

As far as other claims, I'll leave that to the other hood members. I have more results, yes, but I don't want to let the cat out of the bag yet. You asked about Amelie, she played very close to the vest.

The other investigations you made are claimed in the hood though?

[Lunar Martian]

This game is stalling and someone should hammer bugs.

[Lunar Martian]

I can handle myself ejji. I think most people realize that I'm Town. I appreciate the extra effort though.

[Lunar Martian]

I think we should mass claim. In the meantime, VOTE: Gamma

[Lunar Martian]

Scum!ejj has made it hard for themselves by hard-defending Lunar, though. That would have been a viable miselim.

Only because of a stupid fucking deathtunnel by someone who can't seem to get over themselves three weeks later. JFC frogster, how is it possible to confirmation bias this consistently after being called out on it? Every bit of evidence gets interpreted as me being Mafia, regardless of what the evidence even is. If something can't be spun as me being Mafia then you ignore it.

[Lunar Martian]

VOTE: Gamma

[Lunar Martian]

I'm a Vanilla Town. Gamma claims next.


Frogster there is so much stuff that spews me as Town, I literally cannot comprehend how you have not figured it out yet.

[Lunar Martian]

@mod

could you update the OP?

Frog me not paying attention does not justify you trying this hard to throw the game. I'm not going to post in this game for a minute because you're tilting me and I just want to hurl nasty comments at you.

[Lunar Martian]

So we have:

OWER
Lunar
Frogster
joqiza
Ejji
Luca
Gamma

Out of those I know I am Town, Gamma is mechanically cleared (for now at least), ejji is Town by play, Frogster has done nothing useful all game but is being such an incredible prick that I can't imagine it being an act that Mafia would put on. That would be such a shitty way to play as Mafia. OWER is Town by play. That leaves Luca and joqiza. Joqiza has been oddly quiet, and Luca has been scummy but still I think Luca is less likely Mafia based on the argument with me.

VOTE: joqiza

[Lunar Martian]

joqiza and frogster are both conftown

Based on what? I mean I have Frogster as confirmed Town because I don't want to believe someone would play that way as Mafia.

[Lunar Martian]

VOTE: Luca
For now, but I want to hear more from Gamma at some point today.

[Lunar Martian]

VOTE: OWER

[Lunar Martian]

I know that mechanically Gamma and Frog have to be Town, but despite what their role PMs say I still suspect them somewhat.

[Lunar Martian]

@ower, to make this clear, you fully understand that my role is self resolving and that if I’m town, getting me lynched today is pretty much the only way to make scum win?
and IF I’m scum, I basically committed suicide a while ago as there are more than enough mis-lynches left to lynch me anyway...

yet you chose to just ignore all of that and keep pushing me for interactions?

....good tone or not, this is just a scum-claim lol

At least you have a chance at flipping scum from his point of view, Lunar is literally STILL voting conftown.

Not true.

[Lunar Martian]

My main concern is the promise to self-vote. That would be playing against wincon. Seems like an empty promise. the question is why make the empty promise? It's probably innocent, since Mafia would be silly not to shoot him.

[Lunar Martian]

When did I soft PR exactly?

[Lunar Martian]

I'm guessing it was towards the end of day 1? I was in a big argument with someone?

[Lunar Martian]

I'll be pretty surprised if OWER flips Mafia. But I also don't really think ejji is all that likely to be Mafia. Everyone else is mechanically cleared. Don't know what to say. Someone is playing very well, or someone is playing very poorly.

[Lunar Martian]

................................

[Lunar Martian]

Are you fucking kidding me?

[Lunar Martian]

You pushed through a wagon on Town with your bullshit play. Big time throws. That was such a bad idea, and you almost certainly either told Mafia or proved to Mafia that you were bluffing, so the only people you fooled were Town.

[Lunar Martian]

Clearly Gamma or Luca are still Mafia.

[Lunar Martian]

I'll be pretty surprised if OWER flips Mafia. But I also don't really think ejji is all that likely to be Mafia. Everyone else is mechanically cleared. Don't know what to say. Someone is playing very well, or someone is playing very poorly.

Just want to point this out. Now I know which option it is.

[Lunar Martian]

OWER was obviously Town. OWER wasn't dying unless you force it like that.

[Lunar Martian]

Now I'm confused. Gamma isn't mechanically cleared, and neither is Luca, right?

[Lunar Martian]

What was the scum agenda again?

Anyway this is still a win, we just kill Gamma and then Luca. Or vice versa, but I think Gamma is Mafia over Luca.

VOTE: Gamma

[Lunar Martian]

I'm more confident that you're Town, but also more paranoid that you're just openwolfing. I doubt Mafia would be quite so bold as to blatantly fakeclaim, lie, then retract rather than try to come up with some explanation for what went wrong. Plus my initial reasons for Townreading you haven't changed. One thing that happened when OWER flipped was I got more confidence in my reads. I think I had the right PoE yesterday, but mechanical clears threw me off. That's why I'm pissed. I had a winning PoE with a spare elim, and we squandered that.

[Lunar Martian]

I don't see why you wanted to get shot. I also think that if the plan had worked perfectly and Mafia had No-killed that would have made things even worse for Town since you'd look really bad. I think Mafia messed up by killing last night.

[Lunar Martian]

Except your mechanical win is a lie since Gamma isn't really clear. We only had 2 miselims left, and there are 3 or four Town in the PoE. Our odds of winning went down, especially since you convinced me to vote for someone I had removed from my PoE.

[Lunar Martian]

Anyway, that isn't important now. What's important is hearing from other people if I'm crazy to still Townread Ejji, and then whether Gamma or Luca is a better vote.

[Lunar Martian]

Here's what you could have done differently: you could have not lied to us, and instead played as a part of a team...

[Lunar Martian]

People hung OWER yesterday for voting you, when today by your own admission your roleclaim yesterday was a lie. On his side, he was justified in recognizing that you were capping about your role, regardless of what your alignment ends up being.

Idk. Maybe you didn't change anything if the collective town PoE had OWER in it anyway. I'm not sure that's the case, but it's not worth harping over now.

Also to me it doesn't make sense for mafia to target you because mafia is either 1. gamma, and they know you're capping, 2. one of Luca/Lunar, and if they believe your claim they believe Gamma is cleared, so by killing you they'd just lock in a PoE of 2 when town has 2 eliminations.

2/5 of the remaining Town had OWER outside of PoE, at least. Maybe more. OWER died because Ejji made it seem like the PoE was down to one person and the game was solved.

Ejji, who was going to vote you? I don't understand what the hell was going through your head... a couple people scumread you, but that's not the same as you dying for sure. Killing a Townie to save yourself is never a good trade. Especially if it's a Townie people recognize as Town.

[Lunar Martian]

actually, some feedback would be appreciated.
I judged that if I’m bound to get lynched anyway, trying to force mafia to night-kill me might be worth a shot.

From what I see, I overestimated how much people scum-read me and made a mistake by claiming a block on too many people (N1 frog, N2+N3 gamma would have been better)

is there anything else I could have changed?
If you think it was not worth trying, I’d be grateful for talking about that as well. I asked about it a bit in the hood but getting more opinions would be great
I’ll try to correct myself in the future

P.edit:

Also to me it doesn't make sense for mafia to target you because mafia is either 1. gamma, and they know you're capping, 2. one of Luca/Lunar, and if they believe your claim they believe Gamma is cleared, so by killing you they'd just lock in a PoE of 2 when town has 2 eliminations.

that’s why it was also a reaction test xD
I tried threatening gamma a bit in the hood. Like, making it clear that I strongly believe that my plan will work and that I’ll heavily scum-read them if it doesn’t. I stopped later on cuz I ended up finding reasons to town-read him
but eh

giving luca potential info was a mistake...

N3 I believed that mafia was among [gamma, lunar, ower]... giving info only to gamma didn’t seem like a bad move to me then (as even in case of everything failing, this could have still been informative)
I apologize tho, I realize that I screwed up there

NO. DO NOT LIE TO YOUR FELLOW TOWN.

[Lunar Martian]

Anyway, lets table this discussion for postgame. Let's solve the game at hand first.