TM2021 | Anime Destroys Untrod Tripod | Endgame

[Ramcius]

TSQ doesn’t make sense as team with anyone from my POV. Definitely not with either of Pine/FL/Ramcius.
MistyX is town for their claim and generally indecisive behaviour. Which is annoying but town.
Ramcius doesn’t make sense with anyone because of the way he keeps flipping on all slots.
Nancy is obvtown.

Pine is scum that fakeclaimed and makes sense to be allied with FL. Their claims are designed as complimentary to each other and to make sense as endgaming together.
FL is scum that fakeclaimef and makes sense to be allied with Pine. Their claims are designed as complimentary to each other and to make sense as endgaming together.

General advice:
Nancy: just keep voting Pine/FL all game. FL is basically scum!Bunno 2.0 from Dung Beetle and is obviously allied with Pine.
Ramcius: stop voting TSQ and realize that scum are in PR claims.
MistyX: Stop listening to bad VCA, grow a backbone, and vote Pine/FL.
TSQ: Don’t buy into nonsense from FL and think Ramcius is scum, he’s boneheaded as fuck. But eliminating him is a mislim. Don’t lose focus.

Why he can't be your scumbuddy from our PoV? Our PoV that matters for us, not yours

[Ramcius]

Hm, me and Creature think that best course of action is protect Akarin with Mistyx and flip TSQ

They’ve changed their read on Norwee?

We aren't really sure on Norwee, but TSQ getting no pressure for his no presence is a red flag, why scum let him be?

Another shade post that isn't based on reality in any way.

I don't think its a fair assessment of my play that I duck in and out at all.

*"It's a shade, I don't duck in and out!" says TSQ as he disappears again without adding anything to discussion after showing up once his name was mentioned*

[Ramcius]

I did some thinking and all I can see is 2 possibilities - Pine/FL and Norwee/TSQ. I don't really see Pine as a scum after his hard TR on me, cause after miselim in TSQ/Norwee, other one is clear and Pine/FL has no good miselim in ELo, I don't want to flip FL either, cause that would incline Pine/me team after FL green flip and a loss for town, if TSQ/Norwee is a team. DGB says that only way to read Norwee is from his voting pattern and it's to early for that, reading him from tone is pointless. Therefore only reasonable outcome is TSQ. Green flip incriminates Pine/FL, red flip points towards Norwee

VOTE: TSQ

[Ramcius]

DGB says that only way to read Norwee is from his voting pattern and it's to early for that,

i SPECIFICALLY used VCA to explain my initial suspicion on Norwegian. I've literally been pushing wagonomics reasonings over everything

If you can get 2 more people to vote him, I'm fine, TSQ and Norwee are interchangeable for me, but I've seen Mystix and Pine agreeing on TSQ as a consensus elim, so we need just 1 more, if you on board

[Ramcius]

I did some thinking and all I can see is 2 possibilities - Pine/FL and Norwee/TSQ

Walk me through this one

Because I came to a very different conclusion

Norwee is never in a team with Pine or FL, same for TSQ, and I have no reason to rule out Norwee/TSQ team, thus we have these options

[Ramcius]

“Too early for VCA” in a 173-page game in D3 had me lol-ing.

DGB, please. Whip out the scumputer and do work.

She'll do it for you, just give her couple hours

[Ramcius]

same for TSQ

expand on this one

Pine is willing to flip TSQ, he's even voting there, FL isn't liking TSQ either. You should ask same from Norwee, he said no one can be TSQ's partner from his PoV

[Ramcius]

i think "isn't liking" is a stretch to rule buddies out

Still, TSQ is best flip, if you take FL/TSQ team into consideration too

[Ramcius]

“Too early for VCA” in a 173-page game in D3 had me lol-ing.

DGB, please. Whip out the scumputer and do work.

Norwee>Nancy>Mystix>FL>TSQ> Pine

that's what scumputer says, from most likely to least likely to be scum based on VCA

P-edit: who even thinks that you're lock town?

[Ramcius]

“Too early for VCA” in a 173-page game in D3 had me lol-ing.

DGB, please. Whip out the scumputer and do work.

Norwee>Nancy>Mystix>FL>TSQ> Pine

that's what scumputer says, from most likely to least likely to be scum based on VCA

P-edit: who even thinks that you're lock town?

I'm not saying people think I'm lock town. Another misrep.

So your own VCA suggests I'm like second least likely to be scum and you're just ignoring it? Cool.

First of all, it isn't mine, it's DGB's VCA. Second, ever heard of PoE? Third, what makes you think that flipping a nullish slot is bad?

[Ramcius]

“Too early for VCA” in a 173-page game in D3 had me lol-ing.

DGB, please. Whip out the scumputer and do work.

Norwee>Nancy>Mystix>FL>TSQ> Pine

that's what scumputer says, from most likely to least likely to be scum based on VCA

P-edit: who even thinks that you're lock town?

You have me 2nd and why tf is Misty even in that list? Yeah, I think I’m going to completely ignore your solve, since it actually makes the least sense of anyone in this playerlist. If you’re incapable of fucking reading me correctly that’s a Ram NOT a Nancy problem and Misty shouldn’t even be in there.

Reading is a virtue. It's what DGB's scumputer says based on VC's in this game, don't ask me how it works as I have as much understanding as you, but since Pine asked, DBG provided and said that Pine better know what all this means, because he asked that

[Ramcius]

i think "isn't liking" is a stretch to rule buddies out

I agree. While Ram’s conclusion definitely seems plausible, I could also see it as just being too easy and finding out the actual scumteam is rarely that cut and dried. What I probably do agree with Ram is that all scum is likely in those 4. Why couldn’t we possibly have a Pine/Shea team, an FL/Norwee team or an FL/Shea team? I don’t think we can rule either of those out. Out of those 4, the only the only team that I see as implausible is a Pine/Norwee team.

So Pine/FL, Pine/Shea, FL/Shea, Norwee/Shea and FL/Norwee are still possiblities. My team currently leans to FL/Pine. FL mostly for the over the top AtE, emotional manipulation, threats, etic. Scum!FL also threw a rage-induced fit in CoD, when he didn’t get his way and his push on me earlier would fit his pattern of antagonizing me after he pocketed me in that game. So that’s why I can’t rule out a possible FL/Norwee team because if Norwee flips scum, FL wouldn’t be cleared by that because Norwee made it extremely clear, he isn’t interested in any flip today other than Pine’s. So they’re actually more confident on FL than Pine but that’s against the remainder of the playerlist consensus.

3 out of 5 teams involve TSQ, so flipping him is best way to solve this. Don't you agree with this?

[Ramcius]

i think "isn't liking" is a stretch to rule buddies out

I agree. While Ram’s conclusion definitely seems plausible, I could also see it as just being too easy and finding out the actual scumteam is rarely that cut and dried. What I probably do agree with Ram is that all scum is likely in those 4. Why couldn’t we possibly have a Pine/Shea team, an FL/Norwee team or an FL/Shea team? I don’t think we can rule either of those out. Out of those 4, the only the only team that I see as implausible is a Pine/Norwee team.

So Pine/FL, Pine/Shea, FL/Shea, Norwee/Shea and FL/Norwee are still possiblities. My team currently leans to FL/Pine. FL mostly for the over the top AtE, emotional manipulation, threats, etic. Scum!FL also threw a rage-induced fit in CoD, when he didn’t get his way and his push on me earlier would fit his pattern of antagonizing me after he pocketed me in that game. So that’s why I can’t rule out a possible FL/Norwee team because if Norwee flips scum, FL wouldn’t be cleared by that because Norwee made it extremely clear, he isn’t interested in any flip today other than Pine’s. So they’re actually more confident on FL than Pine but that’s against the remainder of the playerlist consensus.

3 out of 5 teams involve TSQ, so flipping him is best way to solve this. Don't you agree with this?

But only if it’s not in FL/Pine which is still possible. My team isn’t even currently sr Shea.

Why your team TR TSQ?

[Ramcius]

Nancy still focusing on the misread of her rather than the salient facts. So Town.

DGB’s scumputer algorithm is based on votes, Nancy, and your tendency to emotionally vote hop all over the place rather than sticking to solid and rational solving is pinging it. It is structurally bad at reading you.

I’m contrast, Shea is an old school player who played the game when VCA was an extremely dangerous tool, exactly because of people like DGB. You’ll notice that FL, Shea, and I are all lowest on DGB’s list? It’s a structural and methodological difference.

What? VCA was never dangerous. It's always been bullshit.

Then why you tried to clear yourself just now by pointing out that you second last on DGB's VCA?

[Ramcius]

Koba wasn’t, they had a hard sr on them, Math is. Math is disagreeing with Titus’ VCA. Shea is a difficult slot to parse if you rely on meta at all because I have none on him.

All I can see is null, I don't see a reason for a TR from this

[Ramcius]

this is literally the best argument you have. People say I'm town and then you desperately try to suggest that their town reads should be null reads and then you say things like "everyone is null reading shea so he's a good consensus flip" but both norwee and nancy didn't say town, they said null.

It's just so incredibly disingenuous.

Is it my turn to call your bs a misrep? First thing I do is to ask why they tr you, neither Norwee or Nancy gave a reason for tr, so it's a null in my book. Just FYI, null can flip either way, I'm very aware that you can flip town, I'm not going around shouting that you're scum, I'm trying to have better gamestate and smaller PoE for D4 and to hit scum, if we lucky

[Ramcius]

Ram why are you set on eliming in me/tsq if you can only see two possibilities and one of them is Pine/FL.
If it comes down to that kind of process of elimination, why take the path that is currently harder.
Why favour any path at all?

JJH would like to state that he is very much of the opinion that this is a pine/ram scumteam right now. He thinks it makes sense that ram is now pushing TSQ rather than me, norwe, since he's assuming i will go hard on Pine/FL
Also, all this focus on pairs is distracting from how Pine has lied about his role PM and is objectively scum no matter who else is.

If I could get you flipped, I would, I just don't see where to get 2 more votes for your elim. I literally explained why I think Pine is town, FL is more sketchy, but still townlean, also DGB says that FL's crumb means that his claim is more likely to be truth, I told that Pine/FL team doesn't make sense from setup spec for me, I gave plenty reason why I don't want flip them, yet you still ask again. If TSQ flips green, flip Pine, where's the problem?

[Ramcius]

If you think the team with a Pine townflip is exactly me/TSQ then go ahead and vote Pine. If they flip town FL can prove we are indeed the scum and have us eliminated. Easy peasy. All i'm asking is for an vote on Pine to flip scum so it's proved that TSQ/me are town and should never be considered for an elimination again.

So you could say "It's Ram and FL!"? Nah, I'm good

[Ramcius]

“Too early for VCA” in a 173-page game in D3 had me lol-ing.

DGB, please. Whip out the scumputer and do work.

Norwee>Nancy>Mystix>FL>TSQ> Pine

that's what scumputer says, from most likely to least likely to be scum based on VCA

P-edit: who even thinks that you're lock town?

I don’t even understand your reasoning here, doesn’t DGB brilliant “scumputer”. have Shea 2nd to last here? It’s also worthless since I know I’m town and Misty is mech town but whatever.

All questions address to Pine, he asked for it, not me

[Ramcius]

First of all, DGB is she, secondly, I never said that DGB has a scumread on you, all I provided a result from VCA. A bit more in-depth idea behind this VCA is that scum is more likely to be on big successful wagon that on small failed wagon

And lastly, if I could flip you, Norwee, I could've done it long ago, blame the people that refuse to flip you for me needing to find a roundabout way. Also, I like how you bring up TGP, when you did 180 on him and hammered

[Ramcius]

MT wants to ask why the first thing on Ramicus's mind is who i'm gonna push after a town!Pine flip. Ramicus isn't even sure TSQ flips town, he's framing TSQ as more of a consensus null here.
Shouldn't Ramcius be interested in flipping scum or something.
There is no way Ramicus is genuinely afraid to vote Pine cause he's scared i would be coming after him/FL with a town!pine flip (4372)

Pine or TSQ greenflip?

I plan for more than just elim, I try to see what would be outcome of different flips thus trying to determine which flip would benefit town most with clearing people, associations, etc

Also, didn't you asked me what I would do D3 after your green flip D2? It's pretty much same thing, but somehow it's a bad thing to ask

[Ramcius]

I like how you try to blame me like the TGP elimination was my sole responsibility when i didn't even argue in favour of it from the start, i've always wanted Pine.

I'm not saying TGP flip is your responsibility, I'm calling bs on you putting blame solely on me, when you at fault too

Speaking of no other elim happening, we are in the same position where neither you or Pine is happening, so what you suggest?

[Ramcius]

I plan for more than just elim, I try to see what would be outcome of different flips thus trying to determine which flip would benefit town most with clearing people, associations, etc

If you want to clear people and check associations you either vote Pine or me. According to like everyone opposing me here, a town!Pine flip would be damning for me and TSQ so i don't get the issue you have with voting there if it's apparently going to seal our fate.

Convince people to vote you and I will change back, i promise.

[Ramcius]

Speaking of no other elim happening, we are in the same position where neither you or Pine is happening, so what you suggest?

I suggest you go to a hibernation with me until the day ends with a no elimination because my vote isn't changing.

What's the point of no elim? Also, you're not only person with a voting power, I don't need your vote, it'll just make day end faster

[Ramcius]

... Ramicus isn't even sure TSQ flips town, he's framing TSQ as more of a consensus null here.
Shouldn't Ramcius be interested in flipping scum or something.
...

This is the huge thing that's bothering me about ramcius's play towards me today. He doesn't seem to be trying to find scum, he seems to be trying to find a slot which no one will significantly object to flipping (me).

Thats like...textbook scum behavior trying to setup a misfade. Find the slot that's not being defended by anyone and then go after them. He doesn't have any reasoning why I'm scum, his reasoning is that I'm not being strongly town read by other people.

That's...What? That's not how you find scum. That's not even pretending to be an attempt to find scum.

No, my reason is PoE. Give me a reason to TR you, I don't ask much

[Ramcius]

... Ramicus isn't even sure TSQ flips town, he's framing TSQ as more of a consensus null here.
Shouldn't Ramcius be interested in flipping scum or something.
...

This is the huge thing that's bothering me about ramcius's play towards me today. He doesn't seem to be trying to find scum, he seems to be trying to find a slot which no one will significantly object to flipping (me).

Thats like...textbook scum behavior trying to setup a misfade. Find the slot that's not being defended by anyone and then go after them. He doesn't have any reasoning why I'm scum, his reasoning is that I'm not being strongly town read by other people.

That's...What? That's not how you find scum. That's not even pretending to be an attempt to find scum.

No, my reason is PoE. Give me a reason to TR you, I don't ask much

You're asking me to go back and go through all the things I've done that I think are town motivated? That's stupid and I'm not going to do that. Such lists are biased and not useful and youre definitely just going to say "I think all of that is null" when I do, so I don't know what the point of this would be.

You keep saying you have a PoE that includes 4 people you only seem willing to go after me and Norwee. Curious.

No, my PoE is you and Norwee for today. I'm jealous of your ability to have 100% correct reads, oh, right, you don't

I didn't asked for a list, I asked for a reason, just 1 thing that really shows that you are town

[Ramcius]

Asking for someone to prove they are town is stupid.

You can do it for, I don't mind

[Ramcius]

One of the things I learned over the years is not try to guess scum motives for doing things, when I have very little info

Another reason why jk can be in this setup is that it can screw town 1-shot powers, it's not a doc, it comes with rb

[Ramcius]

Also, updated scumputer results for only Pine/FL/Norwee/TSQ are Norwee>TSQ>FL>Pine

DGB said that scumputer isn't a solve and shouldn't be threated as such, it shouldn't change reads more than 10-15%

Lastly, DGB pointed out that on TGP wagon only potential scum is Norwee, and Norwee was main push behind zor wagon too

[Ramcius]

How about I ask a real question - why Ico over Nancy? Me or FL can be miselim targets, you can clearly see it as both of us are targeted for elim today

[Ramcius]

I agree to the fact that i find both you (Ramcius) and FL suspicious, but as far as i can see that has not derailed from the main target that lied about their role.

Can you provide actual proof about him lying? You know, your idea that strongman is in setup to give scum team courage to kill doesn't hold water at all, and I don't see any confirmation that this game only contains roles with limited uses. I literally explained why jk makes sense in this setup - it can screw up town 1-shot abilities and strongman is to balance protective side of it, but you simply refuse to even consider that because all your case would fall apart

[Ramcius]

I mean, Ico's kill doesn't make sense at all no matter how I look at it, so only thing that I can think is scum thought Ico softed some PR and they killed him for it

[Ramcius]

The hard proof is Pine’s flip.
In the meantime however.

1. Theme games are very frequently designed with a consistent theme around their design
2. Every other role claimed or flipped in this game has a limited number of shots.
3. Design themes are traditionally consistent across multiple theme games in a series. This is why they are considered a series rather than unlinked games.
4. Every role in the previous game in this series has a limited number of shots.

And sometimes mods throw in changes to deal with people, who try to solve games via setup speculation. There is a saying "don't try to outguess mod" for a reason. I mean setup theme is one thing, but adding roles that doesn't fit for no reason is another thing. Strongman doesn't fit this setup, yet this role somehow flipped, therefore you're just being ignorant

[Ramcius]

Pretty convenient that scum went for a kill on one while the other got roleblocked.

Are you saying that FL is town?

[Ramcius]

The 4 scum in a 13 player game thing is a pretty big twist.

Nah, scum vig shooting their buddy is a big twist

[Ramcius]

I mean, Ico's kill doesn't make sense at all no matter how I look at it, so only thing that I can think is scum thought Ico softed some PR and they killed him for it

If you could maybe link/quote any posts where you think that happened, it would be extemely helpful.

I'm not ISO diving Ico and I'm not going to guess what scum could consider PR soft

As for second of your post, it's last year mini theme that was discussed earlier and whole "Pine is scum based on setup" is based upon

[Ramcius]

Also, updated scumputer results for only Pine/FL/Norwee/TSQ are Norwee>TSQ>FL>Pine

DGB said that scumputer isn't a solve and shouldn't be threated as such, it shouldn't change reads more than 10-15%

Lastly, DGB pointed out that on TGP wagon only potential scum is Norwee, and Norwee was main push behind zor wagon too

Very convenient that when called out on this not matching your positions in the game it suddenly switched to match them exactly. Curious.

Only changes are that you are above FL now, if Nancy and Mystix are considered locktown, that's not so big of a change as you try to make it

[Ramcius]

thoughts about my other posts?

Yes actually.

Shirou told me that he disagrees with your read on FL and Pine because you shouldn't disregard a hypotethical Pine/FL scum team so easily.
In the last TM scum!FL + scum!Kuribo gave easy town reads to each other and defended themselves together.
FL/Pine aren't typical scum afraid to give town reads to partners.

Can you also link this game for me? Thanks.

viewtopic.php?f=150&t=81773

Are you comparing 13p setup with 17p setup?

[Ramcius]

Yes, so the analysis has now changed when nothing has changed to match the analysis, and happens to have changed in a way to support your narrative exactly, again with literally no additional input. There have been no vote changes since you posted the original one.

So what did it change based off of?

I literally said it - Nancy and Mystix were elevated to lock town status from random thus results are different

[Ramcius]

This is what I mean by the disingenuous arguments you're just consistently making. Nothing has changed that would change vote count analysis, and yet somehow the analysis has magically changed to match your narrative.

The only conclusion I can draw is you literally just changed it because you didn't like that people were pointing out that you shouldn't be pushing me based off of it.

For the last time, I didn't push you for it, secondly, I didn't asked it, he Pine did, he knows how this works, I don't, at least not in-dept and I can't really explain it, and lastly, I literally paraphrased DGB's words that this shouldn't be used as a solve, so maybe start reading before misrep, because it's getting really old and boring

[Ramcius]

I think I'll follow FL's and Pine's example and leave you for your own devices, because I'm at my limits. That's for "obv towns" towns, who want to take their sweet time and wait for deadline

[Ramcius]

And if Pine is town i will gladly accept the fade.
Seriously, a town JK isn’t a big deal for me as scum. But a scum fake claiming is a big deal for me as town.

So, you say you'll gamethrow and lose game for town, if your scumread on Pine is wrong? That's 2 miselims that scum need to win

[Ramcius]

setupspec is below other forms of scum hunting for a reason, that's just all mech stuff. Mech is the lazy way to play Mafia unless you're all in on mech. If you are excellent at mech, and use that supplementally, then yes, but I'd even say I'm the strongest at mech in this game

They using 17p rolelist to compare it to 13p, I just can't argue them, it's simply beyond any logic at this point, like strongman is just for giving scum confidence and not to directly counter something on town's side. Could you explain them why there can't be same amount identical/similar PRs in 13p game as it is in 17p, cause I don't know how I should explain this to them for this to sink in their thick skulls

[Ramcius]

Also, specially for Norwee, jk can protect too, not just rb, I mean, you could learn how roles from reading wiki, but for sake of this game, I'm willing to help you out this time

[Ramcius]

Also, specially for Norwee, jk can protect too, not just rb, I mean, you could learn how roles from reading wiki, but for sake of this game, I'm willing to help you out this time

I’m pretty sure my team is well aware how a JK works, but thanks for this useless information.

Really? Then why you fail to consider Pine protecting FL N1? Oh, right, it doesn't fit your agenda that says Pine is scum And really bad at it too, he made terrible claim having full knowledge of setup and then he claim to block his PR read N1

[Ramcius]

Also, specially for Norwee, jk can protect too, not just rb, I mean, you could learn how roles from reading wiki, but for sake of this game, I'm willing to help you out this time

I’m pretty sure my team is well aware how a JK works, but thanks for this useless information.

Really? Then why you fail to consider Pine protecting FL N1? Oh, right, it doesn't fit your agenda that says Pine is scum And really bad at it too, he made terrible claim having full knowledge of setup and then he claim to block his PR read N1

Would scum!Pine not target a PR read if he has blocking utility according to you?

Why would he claim it, if he was scum?

[Ramcius]

Also, specially for Norwee, jk can protect too, not just rb, I mean, you could learn how roles from reading wiki, but for sake of this game, I'm willing to help you out this time

I’m pretty sure my team is well aware how a JK works, but thanks for this useless information.

Really? Then why you fail to consider Pine protecting FL N1? Oh, right, it doesn't fit your agenda that says Pine is scum

Really? Then why you fail to consider Pine roleblocking FL N1? Oh right, it doesn't fit your agenda that says Pine is town

I'm not, but if he did, he wouldn't claimed it, it's not a rocket science

[Ramcius]

I come back and you guys trying to flip Pine? Where gone "we still have time?"

Just for the record, conf town doesn't mean they have better reads than you. Also, ofc scum want kill Mystix, they want to keep even numbers, otherwise we can flip Mystix to go back to odd numbers

[Ramcius]

I'll be honest, I'm really paranoid of TSQ/FL team here, FL doing 180 on me and not voting TSQ, while talking me/TSQ and Norwee TSQ teams

[Ramcius]

Did anyone came up with good explanation for a strongman, if there is only 2 shots of doc? Or even if there one shot of doc, if FL is scum too as some people claims

[Ramcius]

So, I'm your scumbuddy now? FL must be town to support this

Also, I love, when people bring most ridiculous ideas just to support heir theories in mafia instead of accepting obvious things that doesn't fit their ideas

P-edit: how many shots do you need in 13p game?

[Ramcius]

I'll be honest, I'm really paranoid of TSQ/FL team here, FL doing 180 on me and not voting TSQ, while talking me/TSQ and Norwee TSQ teams

My team is re-acessing. A Pine/FL team makes absolutely no sense with DEB’s role.

Finally someone is reasonable, I had lost hope after saying this repeatedly for days

[Ramcius]

FL/Pine scumteam doesn’t make sense mech wise, so possibly safest elim is in one of the scummier vt slots.

Who are these scummier VT slots according to you? I also don't see how FL/Pine team not making sense means that Pine's claim is somehow made legitimate, because it is not.

If one of you/Shea flips scum and Pine roleblocks the other - considering the fact that both of you claimed vt, how does this hurt us, especially since FL has committed to being leashed on doccing Akarin?

Basically, if anyone dies, then he’s probably scum and Ram being opposed to this is likely protown because with you jk’d and FL on Akarin, you’d be lockcleared if an NK happens, so why are you so opposed to this plan?

Why scum is opposed to a plan that would lose game for them?

Thing with Pine is that even if TSQ flips green, Pine has no one to push - if he tries to pin me or FL with Norwee, he's getting elim'ed. He's TRing me and FL too hard to do 180 and be fine

[Ramcius]

The plan relies on flipping scum, and TSQ is not scum.

What makes TSQ not scum?

[Ramcius]

The plan relies on flipping scum, and TSQ is not scum.

What makes TSQ not scum?

That Pine is scum and wants their elimination. He has also done nothing i see to be scummy, i've townread him since very early.
(From my POV he is obvtown because i know he is not allied with me and that makes him unlikely ally with anyone else, but i know that's not convincing. Just a footnote to make TSQ himself see why i trust him.)

What he did so towny to earn your early tr?

[Ramcius]

VOTE: no elim

Let's get back to odd numbers, I doubt we'll achieve anything this day phase anyway

[Ramcius]

VOTE: no elim

Let's get back to odd numbers, I doubt we'll achieve anything this day phase anyway

i agree

VOTE: mistyx

oh, no no no, you ain't getting opportunity to shoot me or Pine

[Ramcius]

No, she's not, so relax. Stay focused.

If people think that mods would recycle or use broken setup for TM, I just have no more energy left to fight them

[Ramcius]

that is such blatant self preservation that i cant even tell if its scummy or not

I could hammer Pine, if I wanted to self preservation. I chose miselim with a clear goal - to break this stalemate, getting 4 people to agree is easier than 5 and we donn't lose miselim. Also I want to see who scum would kill - Nancy are top priority for protection from our PoV, so either they kill one of you/Norwee/Akarin/TSQ and let us flip Norwee/TSQ or they kill me/Pine/FL, which isn't bad either as either, cause it reduce pool for Norwee and TSQ to push, with 2 of us dead it pretty much expose Norwee/TSQ team

[Ramcius]

that is such blatant self preservation that i cant even tell if its scummy or not

I could hammer Pine, if I wanted to self preservation. I chose miselim with a clear goal - to break this stalemate, getting 4 people to agree is easier than 5 and we donn't lose miselim. Also I want to see who scum would kill - Nancy are top priority for protection from our PoV, so either they kill one of you/Norwee/Akarin/TSQ and let us flip Norwee/TSQ or they kill me/Pine/FL, which isn't bad either as either, cause it reduce pool for Norwee and TSQ to push, with 2 of us dead it pretty much expose Norwee/TSQ team

okay

if we flip me today

FL and Pine can lock target akarin and nancy

so the kill is forced between you/Pine/FL/Norwee/TSQ

which is essentially our PoE

It's a bit funny how I suggested same a week ago, yet no one wanted flip you for it

[Ramcius]

After some thinking, I doubt scum have an rb, I could see 1-shot ninja or something to deal with follow/track/watch, but rb with strongman isn't justified with town having bunch of 1-shot roles + jk that can rb townies

[Ramcius]

rb doubles with strongman on dealing with protection, so I feel like it would be one or other

[Ramcius]

With FL scum siding today it makes it really hard to eliminate scum!Pine so i’d be open for an Ram elimination. But like i’ve said. I believe Pine’s fake claim is so extremely obvious that it would sadden me greatly if we actually don’t just kill that slot today. I’ve even said that i will gladly sacrifice my slot if Pine for some reason does end up flipping town. Which is not something i would do if i was scum here, that’s just suicide. I am just that sure.

Now you're willing to flip me after you gave shit about me trying to flip TSQ to confirm you as a scum and pointing at how I did same thing with TGP?

[Ramcius]

And I guess you'll still try to flip Pine after mine green flip with "pine/FL is a scum team!", so nah, you ain't getting my flip

[Ramcius]

Don’t you find it incredibly strange that all of Ram/Pine agree with you that i’m scum but you’re the only one voting me over TSQ.

You act like we didn't tried to flip you, we did, but resistance is too high, TSQ is easier to flip and will give same info as your flip

[Ramcius]

Me flipping town would be a greater blow to FL’s ego and might convince him to vote Pine so TSQ is a bad flip for me in the context of getting closer to having scum!Pine eliminated.

TSQ flipping green means that you can't be scum, cause neither of me/FL/Pine can be your partner, that's a fact

[Ramcius]

taking a day off really helped i think

yeah, one of Norwegian/Pine today, guys

im just ready to move on

I really want to believe in you, but posts like this just makes me see you and TSQ as a team and Norwee just being really bad town

[Ramcius]

So, FL, why TSQ is town from your PoV?

[Ramcius]

taking a day off really helped i think

yeah, one of Norwegian/Pine today, guys

im just ready to move on

I really want to believe in you, but posts like this just makes me see you and TSQ as a team and Norwee just being really bad town

Ramcius is still fighting for that TSQ flip. Which is the optimal one for scum!Pine here.
If you really believed in a me/TSQ team you would be 100% ok with a flip on me today.

I told you that I can see FL/TSQ team, so I feel TSQ is better, also, I said I'd willing to flip you, but for that to happen I need 2 of Mystix/Nancy/Akarin to vote you, when all of them refuse to flip you

[Ramcius]

Norwee just being really bad town

This part really sells scum!Ram for me. I do not believe town!you would call me "just bad town" here. This is an artificial stance you've created to justify an TSQ flip.

I literally took step back at the start of D3 from you, I could see you as a biased ignorant town back then, I can see it it now too, but I can see you being scum with TSQ too, there wasn't anything in this game to make me make 100% read on either way

[Ramcius]

You know, the more I think, the more things I can see that condemn FL:

1. Zor hammer after I said that zor was a bad flip - FL just wanted to get it done before someone unvoted and started discussion with me why zor is bad flip
2. I think some sr on me stems from idea that I knew Molla was JOAT, but it was FL who pointed out that Molla softed PR D1 at the start of D2 which helped me to make connection.Also, FL saying 3 JOAT D1 indicated that he anticipated another JOAT
3. FL claimed DEB knows how to read him, yet he didn't tried to force read out of DEB for 2 full day phases, even when he was in a heat of discussion with Norwee

Lastly, Pine is lock town for me, not just mechanically, but because his hard TR on me, he can't turn on me after miselim, he can't flip on FL either, so where he gets another miselim after TSQ/Norwee green flip? And I'm willing to accept fact that I may be wrong on Norwee, I might be just too biased towards him and it might cloud my judgement

[Ramcius]

It's Pine/Ramcius for sure. Even Shirou agrees on this now, Ramcius is pushing Pine's scum agenda much more openly. Their goal is to get a miselimination on both me and TSQ, it doesn't matter who goes first for them.

Just one more time - TSQ green flip clears you, it's literally impossible to flip both of you

[Ramcius]

TSQ green flip clears you, it's literally impossible to flip both of you

"TSQ town flip clears you"
There's literally not enough scum from your PoV to not include me in a team as long as you locktown read Pine.
If TSQ flips town, your PoE is in [Norwe, FL], and there would be 2 scum alive.
Like, what is exactly the team in that scenario, it doesn't make sense.

No. If that happens I would need to reassess my conclusions and look again at Pine/FL team. What would you do after my green flip? Flip Pine regardless? Who my green flip clear?

I like how you look for alternate elims while calling me out for doing exactly same thing

Final will be 4 ppl, not 3, we're in even numbers, unless we no elim or flip Mystix

[Ramcius]

Also, I like how I'm getting flak for being susp of FL, when FL literally did 180 on me and Pine to get 4 scumreads and that's totally fine thing to do

[Ramcius]

Think about why FL wants to flip you or Pine, and not me or TSQ - my flip would point to TSQ, you and Pine can't be scumteam, so it's you and TSQ as a team and people would flip TSQ over you. He don't want flip TSQ, cause scumbuddy. Flipping either you or Pine he can point at other one D4 and make a team with me, he's even calling us a potential team already.

[Ramcius]

When did I 180 on Ramcius? I feel I’ve been the same spot for a while with them?

yes, I agree with "for a while" part, but that indicates that you were townreading me before, did you not?

[Ramcius]

VOTE: Norwee

I just want end this

[Ramcius]

I don't mind no elim, if we going this direction

I'm not voting Pine, unless someone is going to come up clean and claim something to justify strongman

I was thinking about potential elims and how their flips would influence our future:

TSQ green flip means it's Pine and FL, Norwee is clear, it's easy win, and someone getting earful from me after game for not claiming BP or protective, I'm not buying strongman as a red herring to counter 1 shot of doc
TSQ flips red, we flip Norwee/FL, in either order, we can afford 1 miselim

Pine flips green, we have to gamble on Norwee/FL/TSQ, twice, we have no miselim left
Pine flips red, it's me and FL getting elim

FL flips green, it's Norwee/TSQ, easy win
FL flips red, TSQ/Pine I guess, we can afford miselim

Norwee flips green, TSQ/FL/Pine, again gamble twice, yes, I'm taking into consideration that someone is being smartass and hiding their real role
Norwee flips red, we flip TSQ

VOTE: TSQ

I find this as best elim we have for today, and TSQ can keep "I haven't done anything scummy" for himself, it's PoE, not scumminess contest

[Ramcius]

I don't mind no elim, if we going this direction

I'm not voting Pine, unless someone is going to come up clean and claim something to justify strongman

I was thinking about potential elims and how their flips would influence our future:

TSQ green flip means it's Pine and FL, Norwee is clear, it's easy win, and someone getting earful from me after game for not claiming BP or protective, I'm not buying strongman as a red herring to counter 1 shot of doc
TSQ flips red, we flip Norwee/FL, in either order, we can afford 1 miselim

Pine flips green, we have to gamble on Norwee/FL/TSQ, twice, we have no miselim left
Pine flips red, it's me and FL getting elim

FL flips green, it's Norwee/TSQ, easy win
FL flips red, TSQ/Pine I guess, we can afford miselim

Norwee flips green, TSQ/FL/Pine, again gamble twice, yes, I'm taking into consideration that someone is being smartass and hiding their real role
Norwee flips red, we flip TSQ

VOTE: TSQ

I find this as best elim we have for today, and TSQ can keep "I haven't done anything scummy" for himself, it's PoE, not scumminess contest

I make sense as norwees partner unless you think mafia literally comes into today thinking "lets hard defend each other completely and immediately lose the game if one of us ever flips"

But go off I guess about your no case no reasoning PoE with no reasons whatsoever to think I'm scum.

I think that's better than basing scumread on idea of badly designed setup

[Ramcius]

I agree with Shea here. I think if either he or Norwee are scum here, it really doesn’t make any sense with each other, so I think the whole let’s flip Norwee’s PR partner Shea is unpersuasive and very likely wrong.

Nancy, I was clear enough before that my primary guess is TSQ/FL and Norwee simply don't have any other possible partner, I'm just saying that my guess might be wrong and FL is town here, then it leaves only Norwee to be TSQ's partner and Norwee can't be scum with anyone else

[Ramcius]

i mean

i still have not seen an actual case on shea apart from PoE

which is fine but the PoE argument is coming from other people in the PoE

so it doesnt actually hold up

Can you provide good case against Pine?

[Ramcius]

I agree with Shea here. I think if either he or Norwee are scum here, it really doesn’t make any sense with each other, so I think the whole let’s flip Norwee’s PR partner Shea is unpersuasive and very likely wrong.

Nancy, I was clear enough before that my primary guess is TSQ/FL and Norwee simply don't have any other possible partner, I'm just saying that my guess might be wrong and FL is town here, then it leaves only Norwee to be TSQ's partner and Norwee can't be scum with anyone else

This is not what you've been arguing literally the whole day.

Convenient how it changes now that nancy disagrees.

It is strange how people might change their opinions, when they have time to think. Isn't that point of mafia? To gather clues and then try to figure out truth?

Also, I literally brought up theory of you and FL being scum team 2 days ago, but sure, think that I should just repeat same stuff over and over again, that's the way to win games of mafia, or maybe to get locked in asylum, I can't remember which one it is

[Ramcius]

I agree with Shea here. I think if either he or Norwee are scum here, it really doesn’t make any sense with each other, so I think the whole let’s flip Norwee’s PR partner Shea is unpersuasive and very likely wrong.

Nancy, I was clear enough before that my primary guess is TSQ/FL and Norwee simply don't have any other possible partner, I'm just saying that my guess might be wrong and FL is town here, then it leaves only Norwee to be TSQ's partner and Norwee can't be scum with anyone else

Why couldn’t Norwee be scum with anyone else? I don’t buy a Norwee/Shea team so Norwee is either scum with someone other than Shea or he’s town.

I'm saying flip TSQ, then FL, if that doesn't end game, then it's Norwee, it's not that complicated

[Ramcius]

Notably, the norwee ramcius pairing seems very plausible to me.

And how that makes sense with lock scum Pine, who is fakeclaiming jk?

[Ramcius]

I agree with Shea here. I think if either he or Norwee are scum here, it really doesn’t make any sense with each other, so I think the whole let’s flip Norwee’s PR partner Shea is unpersuasive and very likely wrong.

Nancy, I was clear enough before that my primary guess is TSQ/FL and Norwee simply don't have any other possible partner, I'm just saying that my guess might be wrong and FL is town here, then it leaves only Norwee to be TSQ's partner and Norwee can't be scum with anyone else

This is not what you've been arguing literally the whole day.

Convenient how it changes now that nancy disagrees.

It is strange how people might change their opinions, when they have time to think. Isn't that point of mafia? To gather clues and then try to figure out truth?

Also, I literally brought up theory of you and FL being scum team 2 days ago, but sure, think that I should just repeat same stuff over and over again, that's the way to win games of mafia, or maybe to get locked in asylum, I can't remember which one it is

Yes, you brought it up before, but given that your whole argument for what we should do today was based on Norwee scum and then PoEing onto me because of it with no reason to think I'm not town, it's a very strange thing to change your mind about without reevaluating other things, because it was the whole central reason you wanted me flipped in the first place.

You missed part, where I was against Pine and FL flip due their claimed protectives, but sure, you can choose whatever parts of my messages you like to fit your narrative

[Ramcius]

Um, why no one talking? Anyway, anyone still doubt it's FL and TSQ? FL flipped on me and Pine, TSQ came up with me + Norwee team, it's obvious that they want to get either of us miselim'ed in ELO now

[Ramcius]

Why not Shea/Norwee or Norwee/FL?

Why FL refused to vote TSQ? Also, you think that was scumtheather between Norwee and FL?

What happened to your Norwee TR? I mean, if you tried to pair me with TSQ/FL, it would be more reasonable that Norwee

[Ramcius]

Why not Shea/Norwee or Norwee/FL?

Why FL refused to vote TSQ? Also, you think that was scumtheather between Norwee and FL?

What happened to your Norwee TR? I mean, if you tried to pair me with TSQ/FL, it would be more reasonable that Norwee

Why?

Can you be a little more specific?

[Ramcius]

It’s possible.I just can’t help thinking that FL hammering is scum suicide, because it makes him look seriously bad and he usually tries to manipulate the gamestate better as scum.

Who else could hammer? You or me? I wasn't going to and you refused to do it, so he had to hammer, he was too scared of jk, he knew that claim was real, he was even preparing Pine's kill with pointing out how scum gonna kill jk Pine. Also you forgetting that FL can do anything he want and people just brush it off as a FL's crazy playstyle. Let's take his rush to hammer Zor, when I called it bad elim, his excuse is that "DEB would've hammered anyway", but in reality who cares if DEB hammers and not FL? What does it change? Thing was that he was afraid that DEB won't be in time for hammer and someone will unvote to start discussion with me on why Zor's elim was bad, same thing with Pine, he was in a rush before Pine posted his case on FL, couldn't he really wait?

Also, what other outcome we could have? No elim? That's nothing good for scum

[Ramcius]

True. I wanted to wait for Pine to post his case. But don’t you think we can get more info after Norwee Shea, FL have posted? See who they push right?

It's not like we can elim someone - we need 4 votes

I'd be surprised, if FL and TSQ would push something else than me/Norwee team, but I'm wondering what Norwee will say now, maybe he'll call us a scumteam

[Ramcius]

Um, why no one talking? Anyway, anyone still doubt it's FL and TSQ? FL flipped on me and Pine, TSQ came up with me + Norwee team, it's obvious that they want to get either of us miselim'ed in ELO now

You flipped on me, don’t try and act like it was the other way around.

Norwegian/Status
Norwegian/Ramcius

I flipped on you after you refused to vote TSQ, you were calling me and TSQ team long before that, ofc it was just your paranoia

[Ramcius]

Really the scummiest thing Ramcius has done was turn on me, and switch pressure at the end of the last 2 days.

Also, him bringing up the Zoraster thing now for the first time is kinda off

First time? I brought it at the end of D3, when I called you scum and you even replied to it

[Ramcius]

VOTE: TSQ

I'm fine with this

[Ramcius]

i feel like ramcius and i are on reverse sides of the gamestate but equadistant from scum. from a town pov ramcius should see scumstatus the same way i see scumNorwegian

I see scum TSQ since D1, but no one wanted to flip him and he enjoyed living in the shadows without anyone poking him

[Ramcius]

doesnt akarin just always die on a no elim?

Yes but we get one more day. I just don’t think it makes any difference.

Day just started, there is no reason for no elim, we can just discuss, we have plenty of time and Akarin's flip changes nothing

[Ramcius]

im down to no elim for the chance that Akarin is an even night vigilante instead of 1 shot so we get one more shot in, preferably on Norwegian, but Status is more than likely the fade anyways, so probably shoot Status

more likely i get shot, and we just insta lose, but ill roll the dice

But we haven’t had any even or odd roles in this setup but I suppose it’s possible?

im just hoping, you dont need to take everything i say so literal, i exaggerate and talk about hypotheticals for fun a lot

Well, that was pretty much what Norwee/Shea were saying about Pine’s role, that it was fake and didn’t fit in with the setup.

that's why i say people shouldn't listen to setup spec, too easy for scum to manipulate it and swing it their way

That wasn't setup spec argument, mine was, their was that setup was badly designed, which always is red flag, when someone use that for an argument to push their scumread

[Ramcius]

VOTE: Norwee

New placeholder vote

Why make placeholder votes at all?

[Ramcius]

Lol, Akarin sees that I’m town, why would ScumMe ever kill her?

Would you kill Nancy over Akarin, if you're scum? Or me?

[Ramcius]

I dunno if people realised, but it was Pine's miselim that won us the game. With Norwee flip there, it would've been me + pine vs FL + TSQ showdown and considering how hard people were refusing accept truth of me and Pine being town and FL and TSQ having red rcs outcome was pretty obvious

Also, TSQ, feel free to add me to your blacklist.

I could go on telling how more than half of the playerlist was terrible, but I'm too lazy for that and doubt it would change anything anyway

[Ramcius]

With Norwee flip there, it would've been me + pine vs FL + TSQ showdown and considering how hard people were refusing accept truth of me and Pine being town and FL and TSQ having red rcs outcome was pretty obvious

There was absolutely a reason I kept telling Pine he needed to go after tsq over Norwee even when I thought they were a team.

I tried to do it, but it was usual "show us a smoking gun or we won't trust your scumread" case, I mean, where do I get it, if scum in question is smart enough not to slip hard? Tbh it reminds something I read somewhere on this forum - most scums are in null reads, hard scumreads and hard townreads are usually town

[Ramcius]

We were told explicitly that we weren't allowed to make memes/infographics for each other like a day before Norwee posted the meme you made him, which kinda pissed us off tbh. I did make this as a template for Pine to work off of to make one to explain to Nancy why you never leash a protective role unless it's to a pool that is smaller than the number of available reasonable scumkill targets, but pine is not infographically inclined and never got around to remaking it.

Well, never is a strong word, sometimes you want to direct scum kill on certain obv town, but problem is how not to get roped before you finish explaining to rest of the the town why you want that particular obv town dead

[Ramcius]

I mean, joining TM, supposedly very competitive thing and expecting chill, casual gameplay is a bit much

[Ramcius]

That was a good entertainment, chess and poker examples, but you know, you should go a little bit deeper, you can't just use general idea, when you you speaking for specific circumstances. Sure, part of poker is bluffing, but also it's part of recognising if your opponent is susceptible for bluff, same for chess, you have to know, if you opponent is weak enough to make a blunder, or they simple look at you with a disgust for underestimating their intelligence - no one likes to be treated like an idiot. In this case, Nancy was a tipping point, Akarin would just sheep her, she wouldn't go against Nancy. So you saying that bring even more toxicity in this game via FL vs Nancy fight was a right choice, because you think there was non 0% chance to convince her? Key word here is "you think", there was no salvaging any more