Mafia Invictus Redux [Game Over]

[LavarManos]

I find it weird that Val didn't reelly respond to anything Lukewarm said about him
VOTE: Val

[Gammagooey]

I personally feel like if VPB is scum it isn't because of the reasons Fey+fire are bringing up about picking fights and calling fire's push ridiculous. I think he's being reasonable in his responses and the cheekiness/pushiness/whatever you want to call it is just VPB being VPB. Like I don't think I'm actually good at reading VPB until a couple flips happen and I can see where he was pushing and when/why, but I've played with VPB in enough games over the last decade to get a decent understanding of his posting personality at least.

@Val - Do you have any scumreads on anyone aside from Datisi? Or any particularly strong townreads you could share? It's still pretty early but I don't think I could even make a guess at your opinions on anyone except about 4 people from what you've posted so far.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Still v/la but back soon

[Val89]

I find it weird that Val didn't reelly respond to anything Lukewarm said about him

That's not exactly true, but I don't blame you for getting that impression if you aren't following closely. I did respond to Lukewarm's case by asking him where he stood on Datisi.

The TLDR of the post I made before Lukewarm gave their case was that it appeared to me that a lot effort was being expanded to shade the datisi wagon, while nobody was really sticking their necks out to defend datisi. This, by the way, was the premise that datisi claims in 541 I am twisting thread events to fit, and very poorly at that.

This was lukewarm's reply:

I don't have a strong read on him (hence him not being on either my Do Not Kill list or my I Want to Kill list).

I am suspicious of the way the wagon formed on him, which makes me feel like he is more likely to be town.

I struggle to see 6 townies all deciding that he is scum by page 2 - especially since I did not get any scum pings on him at that time.

From then, I got the feeling that he was playing on his back foot, but I find that to be NAI.

I don't know about you, but that looks very much like Lukewarm is telling us he has a problem with the datisi wagon being scummy....without sticking his neckout to defend datisi. I can tell, or I can show, you know?

[Val89]

@Val - Do you have any scumreads on anyone aside from Datisi? Or any particularly strong townreads you could share? It's still pretty early but I don't think I could even make a guess at your opinions on anyone except about 4 people from what you've posted so far.

I understand part of the reasoning that is being deployed against me is that it appears as if I have a one-dimension focus on datisi, and that's fair. I don't see how it is scummy, but I agree it is an accurate description of my play in this game. I have to ask you, though, who actually benefits from me sharing other read at this point? Sure, perhaps it makes me a touch more readable to those who actually have the goal of reading me correctly, but if I were to become more widely townread, that would bring me up the list of NK targets, and I have already explained why having reads out there in that circumstance is a pretty-bad-idea(tm).

I don't like datisi. I've made no secret of that. I don't see many people saying they do. I do see people disliking the wagon and calling it scummy, but I know my reasons for joining it were genuine and my default position is to assume that others joining were also feeling the same off-vibes I were getting. Lukewarm says I "arbitrarily dismissed" the idea that scum could or would be on the datisi wagon, but I explained my reasoning there and it has been discussed by at least one other slot (188, 547), suggesting to me that what I sad was understandable to others. You might disagree with the logic, but the fact I arbitrarily dismissed it is simply untrue.

I am aware that others have to figure out whether or not I am scum simply bullshitting my read there, but I don't. I know we are either in the world where datisi is scum, and that's why he felt off to me and continues to do so, and why nobody can us why he is town without reference to a wagon others call shady but I know - for at least my part - wasn't or else datisi is town, and in that scenario I would think scum would be more than happy to jump all over what would then be a TvT shitfight, but, and I don't really have anything to hang this one other than another gut feeling - I don't get that impression.

The best way I think I can determine between the two is to continue to make this a me v datisi thing, and see what the mood of the room is, going forward. Maybe I am wrong and scum are happy with this game state, and there is a better sense of that looking back in a few days whether I am in the game or not, and even if this goes against me, my flip will let everyone know what I do re: the two worlds above in a way that can't be impeached. I will miss out on getting an invictus shot, but if scum are shooting at me, it'll be because I've shared reads that are wrong anyway.

TLDR: I respectfully decline.

[Val89]

It's still pretty early but I don't think I could even make a guess at your opinions on anyone except about 4 people from what you've posted so far.

Out of interest, however, who would those 4 be?

My read on datisi is no secret, that is one, and I know Kovu is the other slot people say I am focused on, but I stand what I said before:

Ill try my hardest to take Feys advice and leave that read alone for a bit.

If I've given the game away elsewhere without realising, I would like to know in case one of the other 3 happens to be my invictus target. If my target CAN be deduced anyway, that may change how I approach this.

[Gammagooey]

It's still pretty early but I don't think I could even make a guess at your opinions on anyone except about 4 people from what you've posted so far.

Out of interest, however, who would those 4 be?

The two non-Datisi people I think I could make a semi-accurate guess at your read on would be Kovu & Lukewarm.
I could also make *a* guess at your reads on Marci and Lavar, but I would not be confident in those guesses being accurate.

I have a fairly big issue with your read on Datisi, in that from my POV everything you've mentioned aside from your initial *vibes* on Datisi is speculative confirmation biased garbage. Looking at a wagon and assuming a)Other people are joining this wagon for the same reason(s) you are and b)that the wagon is not only meaningful in regards to the players *voting him* alignments when from a quick skim every vote on it except SirCakez came before the end of page 2, but that the wagon sheds light on Datisi's alignment when, as you said, the majority of the people voting him are likely to be town that are making an early guess at Datisi being scum with statistically barely better than random odds, is a terrible reason to continue pushing for Datisi or literally anyone being scum.

If Datisi IS scum, they have been scum for the whole game so far. *Wagon Logic* is a terrible method of scumhunting and Datisi's now done plenty of other things that are worth commenting on, so if you don't want to share your other reads on people you at least should share your thoughts on Datisi's more recent reads/interactions with Marci & VPB, or their readslist, or their comments to fire/Fey/Bell. Personally, I think that being easily readable (as town) is generally more helpful than being able to push effectively for who you think is scum given how inaccurate everyone is at actually finding them, but even if you don't agree with that, the last votecount has only you and marci on Datisi, and if you want them to actually be the elim today you're going to need to talk about more of their play than a wagon in the first 4 hours of the game and the subsequent reactions to that.

[Bell]

More sircakez votes. Please and thank you.

[Kovu]

GOOOOD MORNING!!!!

Fey is ydra? I had someone else in mind tbh, unless I'm thinking of another alt, but damn.. ydra starting off like that?? like, what even??

uhh I think I've read everything, SS going "I'll ask questions and yall will ignore" like what? you haven't asked a single question this game or even done anything. Cakez has done more, and cakez has called LLD town for doing nothing...

I don't get the "more cakez votes" I mean, not at this moment, I know cakez does nothing as scum, but it's like he made a good attempt to give something while being on vacation.. I'll happily give him a d1 pass, now we have Dwlee with 4 posts TOTAL and nothing in over 2 days...sure I don't blame anyone for not posting yesterday, like, I didn't but seriously... you only have 4 posts... and last time I played with scum!dwlee they barely posted/ "were busy IRL" or whatever.. like, this is mirroring what I know of scum!dwlee... I don't care they're moving.. 4 posts... and this is what? the 5th IRL day?

[Kovu]

VOTE: Bell

Moved in, saw wagons are shifting here. This + marci competing is good

"saw wagons going here, I'll place my vote on this wagon with momentum then leave"

like.. this ISO doesn't feel like natural towny stuff, it feels more like scum trying to appear towny, like with the 4 posts that are here

[Kovu]

I find it weird that Val didn't reelly respond to anything Lukewarm said about him
VOTE: Val

that's the only thing weird? not the fact Val literally only talked to/about me the entire first part of this game? People giving val the same answers I'd give, and val goig "no! I want to hear kovu!"

none of that was weird? just ignoring someone is??

[Datisi]

welp, gamma may or may not be scum but i sure am completely pocketed by them.

starting to get a vibe val may as well be town because i don't know if scum quadruples down this hard on a bad argument that everyone and their mothers is telling him is bad. also he's probably not scum with marci because i doubt scum!marci would openly tie herself to val by saying that he's making good points about me, after both of them completely ignore my points against val...?

still absolutely wouldn't mind sending him to the graveyard, though. if anything, for my motivation in this game.

will try to gather some willpower for this game today. @bell, wanna give me a case on why i should vote cakez?

[Kovu]

tbh I'm still ok yeeting Lavar today,

and as of right now, I would not be opposed to alternate wagons of LLD, Rhyme No Reason, Meuh, Val, Marci, Dwlee, Lavar

Like, those 6. I don't feel great about and/or they're not giving anything that says "I'm town and trying to be TRed or find scum"

I'm not saying all scum in them, I'm just saying, they all have different reasons that make me not opposed to yeeting them here

[Kovu]

Like, once there's actual stuff from everyone I'll be more worried about finding maf, but like, those 7 with nothing? I'm not even trying, there's literally no point

[Bell]

No case, gut and have to start cutting out the inactives.
I’m fine killing mala or R&R too.

[Bell]

Or Dwlee.

[Meuh]

Val is probably town, I don’t think scum can synthesize the whole argument about how putting out reads is bad bc of Invictus. I disagree with it, but it’s probably genuine.

More sircakez votes. Please and thank you.

VOTE: SirCakez

RR/Dwlee/LLD/SirCakez/Enchant sound like the best options to me.

[gorilla]

Val is probably town, I don’t think scum can synthesize the whole argument about how putting out reads is bad bc of Invictus. I disagree with it, but it’s probably genuine.

1. I think it's super easy to take the line of thinking of "If I was town I would not want to give reads" and replicate that as scum.

2. The reasoning for the reads he

has

given are sleazy.


Wagoning Cakez is fine, though. I'm mostly getting tired of Day 1.

[VP Baltar]

No case, gut and have to start cutting out the inactives.
I’m fine killing mala or R&R too.

Why mala?

Like, I could maybe get down with a Cakez or Dwlee lim because I know they can play better than this and they just aren't (even accounting for the holiday weekend), but it comes across like you're not actually scumhunting and just looking for any lim today, which is kind of garbage.

[Bell]

I can’t divine people’s alignments from 8 posts.
You’re entering the ideology lane again. I don’t want to discuss the morality of killing difficult to read slots.

[VP Baltar]

Their reads have subtlety and uncertainty that she lacked when we were scum together in KTANE.

Ok, I skimmed her ISO in that game and I agree that it is extremely one dimensional (and different from tako's early posts). Maybe I'm tunneling, so I'll unvote for now.
Do you think it's possible being on an alt could account for the difference in tone?
UNVOTE:

This is the second time you've changed your opinion on something right after I posted. Why are you sheeping me?

I have returned, but I can't read tonight.
Tomorrow I should have some thoughts for y'all.
As always I will ask for any things
That people think that I should focus on.
(And just as always, no one will oblige.)

-Reason

Looking forward to the follow through on this today.

I personally feel like if VPB is scum it isn't because of the reasons Fey+fire are bringing up about picking fights and calling fire's push ridiculous. I think he's being reasonable in his responses and the cheekiness/pushiness/whatever you want to call it is just VPB being VPB. Like I don't think I'm actually good at reading VPB until a couple flips happen and I can see where he was pushing and when/why, but I've played with VPB in enough games over the last decade to get a decent understanding of his posting personality at least.

I feel like you're doing a good amount of soft defending me, which I don't really mind I guess, but why? What's your read on Fey right now as well?

(also, ftr, I have no idea how to scum read you either after all these years...glad the feeling is mutual!)

I don't know about you, but that looks very much like Lukewarm is telling us he has a problem with the datisi wagon being scummy....without sticking his neckout to defend datisi.

I don't think it looks like that at all. I think it looks like luke summarizing his case against you. I would like to hear you respond to the point of why you haven't interacted with more people, and don't give me this bullshit about "scum might figure out my invictus" because, let's be real here, you ain't gonna be the night kill.

I have to ask you, though, who actually benefits from me sharing other read at this point? Sure, perhaps it makes me a touch more readable to those who actually have the goal of reading me correctly, but if I were to become more widely townread, that would bring me up the list of NK targets, and I have already explained why having reads out there in that circumstance is a pretty-bad-idea(tm).

This is nonsense. The game does not revolve around you, and people would like to read you. If you're town, that's what you should be doing. Acting shady and possibly getting mislimmed is not a better outcome than being added to a potential list of NK targets. Town's win by town blocing and cooperating, not by individual players scumming it up for their personal viewpoint on optimal play.

I don't think people are being unreasonable to ask you for some more sharply defined reads.

Let me put this another way, at what point do we get wider reads from you? D2? D5? How is anyone supposed to form a town bloc with you if you are being zero percent transparent about your thinking? Doesn't this approach to the game allow scum!Val to just make some stuff up later in the game to make them look good?

I tried to work with you by asking you to give us some town and scum impressions without necessarily revealing all your cards (a fine compromise, imo), and you just ignored that altogether.

VOTE: Bell

Moved in, saw wagons are shifting here. This + marci competing is good

"saw wagons going here, I'll place my vote on this wagon with momentum then leave"

like.. this ISO doesn't feel like natural towny stuff, it feels more like scum trying to appear towny, like with the 4 posts that are here

I also think some of what dwlee DID say about wagons was kind of shite, such as saying myself and marci were the two most likely scum on the Datisi wagon, when I was the person who started it as a purely RVS event. I don't see how they came to that conclusion AT ALL.

in fact, let's do this thing.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: dwlee

starting to get a vibe val may as well be town because i don't know if scum quadruples down this hard on a bad argument that everyone and their mothers is telling him is bad. also he's probably not scum with marci because i doubt scum!marci would openly tie herself to val by saying that he's making good points about me, after both of them completely ignore my points against val...?

What's your current feeling on marci again?

Val is probably town, I don’t think scum can synthesize the whole argument about how putting out reads is bad bc of Invictus. I disagree with it, but it’s probably genuine.

1. I think it's super easy to take the line of thinking of "If I was town I would not want to give reads" and replicate that as scum.

2. The reasoning for the reads he

has

given are sleazy.


Wagoning Cakez is fine, though. I'm mostly getting tired of Day 1.

This is correct. Extremely easy to fake that from Val, and possibly even a thought scum would have as a "this is protown" when actually it's just kind of silly.

I can’t divine people’s alignments from 8 posts.
You’re entering the ideology lane again. I don’t want to discuss the morality of killing difficult to read slots.

Yeah, but to act like you can't even come close to thinking about alignments is ... just ridiculous. You're not BAD AT MAFIA, are you?

[Bell]

Yes, I’m bad at mafia. I’ve never pretended otherwise.
Uh, I have not hidden my views and I have elaborated on some reads.
You’re also missing that there’s a good reason to pressure inactive slots.

[Rhyme and Reason]

The basic logic, as I see it, is Marci voted datisi, got pushed as to why and then came up with post hoc reasoning that doesn't make a lot of logical sense.

It looks like they weren't pushed before they gave
The major reason (him ignoring votes).
The push came only after, then they said
that's not the first real reason that they had.
Before this post, I don't believe they said
what that first reason was. I guess they should.

Andante thinks she is the center of all thought, which is maybe +town for her

I think that she can be like that as scum,
but this specific thing is based upon
a townie POV, so I agree.

That would be a legit waste of a cop shot.

We'll cop you then, so we can sheep your read (:

I’m getting a lot of townie vibes from the general activity of the game if that makes any sense?

It does, and it is almost always wrong.
I've done this, trust me. Usually it means
that you are more inclined to call things town
so people who post more, get townread more.

"Let's kill the lurkers" means that something's wrong--
It's not to say that lurking isn't bad,
But just that active scum can safely hide
And no one wants to try and hunt them out.
The proper answer is to try and force
The lurking ones to say some AI things
So you can read them better than before.

~Reason

In case Madrid was not sufficient hint,
Menalque forgot his tag and signed as mine.
(In modern slang, impostor looking sus?)

I like how Bell responds to getting votes
on page 13. It feels like what I'd do.

that was a pretty bad post.

The latest post? It seems okay to me...
I also was annoyed by Kovu's gripes.
Although it's hard to tell from looking back
It seemed like stuff was going on, and that
She got annoyed it wasn't what she wants.

why do you need to know what bells pr is enchant -.-

Well it's a closed theme game, it's likely that
each player has some power of their own,
But many aren't AI, so I would say
Some comment should be made about the strength.
Though asking for a fullclaim is too much.

I'm not yet sure if I agree with Luke
In their big case that Val is likely scum,
But definitely, it's a well-made post
And Luke is towny for it, I would say.

How do you read Datisi?

That post was asking, if that wasn't clear.

How do you read Datisi?

Uh, pretty badly, often how it goes.
I think I mostly need to wait until
He has a moment where he shows his thoughts
A little more in real-time and unplanned
It's hard; I've been scum versus him a lot
And fake a townread often just like this,
So I don't know how much of it is real
But I believe he's best read in this way.

uhh I think I've read everything, SS going "I'll ask questions and yall will ignore" like what? you haven't asked a single question this game or even done anything.

It's how it goes in every game I play.
I go on V/LA; when I return
I get accused of lurking, and I ask
What people want to hear from me, and then...
nobody ever answers. Hence that line.

-Reason

[fireisredsir]

oh yeah, another thing that made me wanna yeet baltar into the fucking sun.

since when do you take notes in a game that is 300 posts long.

i was mostly nullish on datisi but tbh this kinda feels like a scumtisi post

not bc of the notes pt thing just cause of vibes

i think val actually makes a good point on page 21.

also i dont like how bandwagony sircakez is.. and without even fully reading! he said he was skimming.
hmm

this post also sketched me out a little bit

Their reads have subtlety and uncertainty that she lacked when we were scum together in KTANE.

Ok, I skimmed her ISO in that game and I agree that it is extremely one dimensional (and different from tako's early posts). Maybe I'm tunneling, so I'll unvote for now.
Do you think it's possible being on an alt could account for the difference in tone?
UNVOTE:

this is still scum btw and i would go back here if cakez wagon doesn't go anywhere

~

val and gammas longer posts kinda bored me tbh but i think that vp's response to val in 620 is Good, Actually. prob best vp post so far

RR's thoughts are... fine. doesn't really have a lot to take away from it, actually, a decent amount feels like talking just to talk which is weird for a post that should be giving thoughts

think that pressuring the low activity slots is good in general

[LavarManos]

none of that was weird? just ignoring someone is??

That stuff is weird too ok. I feel some of what Datisi is feeling regarding Val, but I agree more with gorilla that the stubborn mentality really isn't that hard to fake.

This is the second time you've changed your opinion on something right after I posted. Why are you sheeping me?

Not really though. I never had a read on marci and I specifically mentioned it. Yes, I agreed with you that marci was suspicious for the post hoc stuff, but I also asked why others might be townreading her. I still wasn't entirely sure what my read on her would be.
About mala. Well, you brought up a game where she was scum in, I read through the posts myself, and I observed that her posts were different. I don't really see anything wrong with that even if I got to the same conclusion you did.