Newbie 2101 | Better Call Saul | Game Over

[petapan]

hi im new

VOTE: esires

[petapan]

on second thought

VOTE: Juice

you seem to be avoiding the game. why is that?


full disclosure: i jumped in because a newbie game needing 3 subs in pregame is kind of a disaster and the game was likely to with from inactivity if no one filled in. this site has a hard enough time keeping newbies around as it is. so my goals for this game are: 1. make it fun for the newer players 2. win the game for the town

to that end while i realize the activity rules only require a post every 36 hours, if those of you who are around could step it up and post more frequently, that would be good. doesn't matter if it's trivial, just get some thoughts out there. we can't develop reads on the slots who haven't posted but we can try to read the people who are actually present, there's no need to wait around and be idle

[petapan]

On a semi-serious note I don't like fancypants' entrance

What's wrong with it, too serious too quickly?

The idea that it's self referential in a way, like here are two players mobing the game early so they are town, where they also do the same thing.

i like the read. i don't know if i agree with it but i like that you made this read

[petapan]

VOTE: MegAzumarill

i can probably guess why you're doing this but explain it anyway?

[petapan]

VOTE: MegAzumarill

i can probably guess why you're doing this but explain it anyway?

It was actually a serious vote rather than plainly RTing, I left it naked to see what the reaction would be. Meg already felt different from Mewbie 2092 in this game, more jokey in a way.

nah that was what i figured your reason was actually, just wanted to hear it in your own words

I am liking peta's entrace into the game so far. I'm gonna go with my dVOTE: esires.

this is good, because there is no reason whatsoever to distrust me

[petapan]

Did you think my vote was serious or a reaction test?

i thought it was serious for basically the reasoning you gave

Moreso I'm OK with being the first wagon.

this is very slightly >rand town

[petapan]

eh not really, i think their read of fancypants on this page is fine but i get why you voted there. i think you're both okay for page 2 (thrilling stuff, i know)

[petapan]

Although, this was odd. You quickly moved to juice after this. Was this first vote random or a gut-read?

had kind of a gut feeling then decided it would be more productive poking at juice

Also what does this mean? I'm not up to date on terminology

above random chance to be town. essentially i think that esires saying they don't care if they're the first wagon is a very mild towntell.

[petapan]

Why do you think its a towntell?

didn't care about pressured, lack of concern more likely from someone with nothing to hide, not worried they've been caught. again, minor but have to start someplace

Lol a Newbie game with no true newbs in it now.

the newest players are in fact the SEs. well, and juice if xe ever comes back to this game

Still here, I do townread petapan.

this is the fastest i have ever been townread in a game

don't really think it's warranted but w/e. don't find myself more suspicious of the people doing it

[petapan]

Did you think my vote was serious or a reaction test?

i thought it was serious for basically the reasoning you gave

Moreso I'm OK with being the first wagon.

this is very slightly >rand town

Why does being okay with being lynched make someone town? I would never accept a lynch on me as we have MLs that I would rather use to lynch scum.

didn't say they were okay with being eliminated (that's another theory discussion altogether), said they were okay with being wagoned. can be feigned nonchalance but i'm choosing to take the easy answer for now

[petapan]

Going based off of vibes, I don't really like furtive that much and I need to see more from juice.

what don't you like about furtive?

[petapan]

Meg's posts are awfully loose, I'm good with my vote being parked there for now.

why does "loose" = scum?

[petapan]

maaaaan this feels performative. "oh you think I'm town already? I don't think i'm being very town. but if you think i'm town I guess you're kinda town."

i mean i'm normally not someone who gets townread early and while i think my play is solidly protown i'd be lying if i said i was out of scumrange. but i don't think the reads on me are necessarily coming from an informed point of view where i'm being townread too easily by people who know i'm town, it just feels a bit careless

I would say loose is more anti-town. Can be distracting. Most of that ended after page 2. (I'll also note I have no issue with peeps making posts to try to get others to use appropriate verbage)

that doesn't really answer my question - what posts seemed "loose"? just them joking around on page 1?

[petapan]

VOTE: BBT

[petapan]

i have a lot of vague positive good feelings toward people and no one pinging me as especially scummy yet. it's possible i'm being overly generous because the game is still a bit stagnant but no one has done a thing that makes me want to murder them yet

[petapan]

Alright, who should I be voting?

yourself

[petapan]

@mod: juice needs a prod

[petapan]

meg, furtive, and fancypants all seem fine enough in a slightly towny way for now. kind of like esires for that same reason and bulbazoor's entry is okay, though i'm kind of biased to townread rigid posting styles

[petapan]

yourself

How silly

VOTE: Petapan

if you would like to out yourself as mafia by all means go ahead

[petapan]

hm, thought the bad lazy entrance was +scum for you but on a quick check it's meta neutral. i don't know why you show up to a game as bare as this and refuse to put forth any meaningful effort though

[petapan]

i have nothing but time on my hands

[petapan]

As peta posts more, the more I think he is town.

why do you think that?

[petapan]

At this stage of the game, I operate mostly on gutreads.

okay. i asked because at this point townreading me doesn't do a lot for me so i wanted to see if i could get a little more from you to understand what you're thinking. that's fine though i use gut a lot particularly on this account

[petapan]

eh i'll move

VOTE: bs2000

i don't really like the lack of defining what they saw as "loose" and the fact that they described it as "more anti-town. Can be distracting." for someone they were good with parking their vote on gives the sense that tey're not really hunting for scum

[petapan]

Alright.

BS made a post saying something along the lines of 'A newbie game with no newbies in' and this came across to me like scum complaining that they have no newbies and as such are at a disadvantage.

...

[petapan]

I would say the loose posts are Meg's iso #1,#4,#9, and #10. Sorry that I'm not linking directly. Also I....did answer your question? You asked why is loose scum, and I responded essentially not really scum, but anti-town. Meg has redeemed themselves since then.

i mean, i question why you'd be good with keeping your vote on someone claiming they're anti-town for...fluff posting on page 1. that just seems a little ridiculous to me.

lol. this is so confusing to me. Am I the only one? I think I kinda understand what you're getting at, but I've never seen someone so freaked out and babbly when they get a townread. You do this again here:

i wasn't expecting to earn a level of trust so quickly for posting that is marginally protown but

lol. this is so confusing to me. Am I the only one? I think I kinda understand what you're getting at, but I've never seen someone so freaked out and babbly when they get a townread. You do this again here:

The way I read it, I don't really see it as coming from a scum POV. It reads more like "wow people are actually TRing me". I don't really see what scum!peta gains from making saying that line.

fwiw, though i'm town this is not a particularly good line of logic - people assume that questioning townreads on you is a towntell but it's very trivially faked and practically a basic reflex for any reasonably skilled scum player. i would be cautious about using such reasoning in future games. judge me by whether my actions are believable and if i'm advancing the town win condition.

[petapan]

Starting to get townvibes from Meg's exchange with FancyPants. Need to see more from Juice/Bulba/BBT. There's scum somewhere in there.

this post is kind of a generic call of "need to see more" and while i wouldn't really disagree with that assessment it's an easy thing to say and i don't see bs2000 actually doing anything to figure out the alignment of those players, just making a reactive vote on bbt for an (admittedly reachy) vote.


with 5 days left i think it's worth talking about who we're willing to vote out. game is a bit soft due to the slow start, could really do with some more people slinging accusations about, but absent that sometimes you have to close your eyes and guess.

i'm not really solid on bs2000 as a scumread but i'd be willing to run them up. bbt hasn't done enough to merit townreading either, don't think they're super likely to be scum together but could see one in there. juice is also someone who i think deserves more pressure

[petapan]

eugh a wallpost what's become of me

[petapan]

went to check fancypants because i'm unsure on him due to low content, i still like the way he questioned meg and came away with a townread b/c it felt like there was actual intent to figure out the player but i need to see something in the way of an actual scumread from him if he ever comes back to the game

[petapan]

went to check fancypants because i'm unsure on him due to low content, i still like the way he questioned meg and came away with a townread b/c it felt like there was actual intent to figure out the player but i need to see something in the way of an actual scumread from him if he ever comes back to the game

I'm not invested in this game. I will be. I need to do a proper reread which. Promise to do in roughly 15 hours you have my permission to lynch me if I don't.

my brother in christ the game is six pages long

[petapan]

I'm most happy voting BBT for now.

VOTE: BBT

1.

that's E-1

, call that out when you're voting so no one accidentally hammers

2. why?

[petapan]

oh my bad, didn't even mentally register the unvote. other question still stands.

[petapan]

you said you thought he was sus earlier though, that didn't sound like it was a process of elimination read to me

[petapan]

VOTE: juice

[petapan]

i think we should probably vote juice, because juice is not playing the game.

[petapan]

I have no idea what to make of Juice. I mean yeah we're still fairly early in the game, but there's enough to go on at this point that a jokey OMGUS vote is a waste. At the same time it feels more town than scum to me because it's just so blatantly not giving an F.

i'm not really confident juice is scum at all but i think juice is trolling

[petapan]

my vote was in fact specifically to see if juice would come back to the game after doing nothing and avoiding it and it produced the result i wanted

[petapan]

@Peta, what is your opinion of lurkers in newbie games in terms of alignment?

>>rand scum if they're a new/inexperienced player, played a bunch of newbie games and scum were very frequently lower activity.

juice claims to have played here before though and i am not really confident xe is scum because juice could easily be a competent player. i think they're just showing a lack of respect for the other players in the game

[petapan]

ok caught up.

@BS, can you explain your town read on Bulba please?

@Peta, what is your opinion of lurkers in newbie games in terms of alignment?

@Juice, please give any reads you may have this game and why.

@Meg can you elaborate on your vote on BBT.

I’m happy with my vote on Juice for now.

i'm going to be honest though: shotgunning a bunch of questions to give the appearance of doing things is the pingiest post in this game so far. does fancypants care about this stuff or is he just sayign things? what's the goal of all these when they're so all over the place?

[petapan]

Furtive....ya know I do get a weird vibe from their iso. Like, and I know some people get really peeved at looking for pairs in D1, but if Juice flipped scum, I feel like FG would be a decent target. But that's a small hunch i'm not gonna push.

you don't need to push it, but talk a little about why you thought this?

[petapan]

I kinda like BBTs comment 114 about BS2000 being a salty scum that their were no newbies in the game - in that I think it’s a township thought.

I’m not writing off scum BBT though I just disagree with the reasons stated for the current sus on him.

???

[petapan]

VOTE: fancypants

i have other thoughts but i'll hold onto them for a bit. juice is immensely frustrating but i am lukewarm on the prospect of xem being scum.i think fp deserves more pressure after his posts on this page.

[petapan]

ok caught up.

@BS, can you explain your town read on Bulba please?

@Peta, what is your opinion of lurkers in newbie games in terms of alignment?

@Juice, please give any reads you may have this game and why.

@Meg can you elaborate on your vote on BBT.

I’m happy with my vote on Juice for now.

i'm going to be honest though: shotgunning a bunch of questions to give the appearance of doing things is the pingiest post in this game so far. does fancypants care about this stuff or is he just sayign things? what's the goal of all these when they're so all over the place?

To be fair they are doing more than just shoot questions in the surrounding posts. I think you are taking this post ooc here.

i don't really find the surrounding posts to be towny either, it doesn't really feel to me like fancypants is actually really trying to solve people. there's stuff to make conversation but otherwise some kinda-sorta townreads, and his stance on BBT is very wishy-washy

[petapan]

I voted them because they entered the game effectively elaborating none on their reads except one read which had reasons I consider reachy. They even agreed it's weak.

Looks like scum trying to get by rather than town because town would want to share any of their strong reads on entry so either BBT isn't sharing for some reason, or didn't have any solid reads.

Do you think I would have problems making town reads as scum?

Like, unless you think I'm completely unable to fake town reads on people I know are town if I am scum then this thinking doesn't make any sense.

Additionally, do you always expect 'solid reads' on page 5 from someone who has only just entered the game and had 0 interactions?

you don't really need interactions to have reads - this is a point i would stress to the newbies in the games. you can just analyze posts.

i will grant that on page 5 it is not easy to get reads and meg's verbiage is a bit extreme though

I agree that I haven't provided thoughts on the full game yet, but they will come.

when are they supposed to come, exactly? you've been a player in it for a few days now

and if you prefer to interact with people to get reads...what have you been doing to further that, exactly?

[petapan]

peta is squeaking like scum. if they were town, they would of just kept their vote on me,

why is that?

[petapan]

Talk to me about Meg and Esires

meg i still think is active, moving the game, looking to scumhunt with his pushes etc. you might not like some of the stuff he says but i don't think it's being done with bad intentions. the semantics are annoying but i'm meh as to whether scum actually does something like that. i know that's vague, sorry, but i'm not totally all-in on the read or anything, it's a feel thing.

w/r/t esires: at first glance i liked 129 because it felt like a paranoid post, they're suspicious of people, they're hunting for scum. however as i go back to look at it, i'm now townreading bulbazoor and probably townreading BS2000 and that makes me like the post less, and i do think you have a point on the careful wording. so hm.

[petapan]

My god how much longer are we gonna continue the "here is my gut read on this person" "wow a gut read?" " yeah it was from page X what do you expect" thing going? I feel like I've read that a few dozen times now. let's hope we see it on page 50.

dunno dude it's day 1 that's how it goes. it's tiresome but a necessary part of the game. eventually we will run someone up and elim them. since time is running short and site activity tends to nosedive on the weekends, we should probably run someone up for a claim soonish and then decide if we want to elim them

[petapan]

Wont be able to do much more tonight

doing replies inside a huge quote block is really hard to parse visually fyi

you don't need to redo it just though i'd comment

[petapan]

VOTE: esires

as a counterwagon to BBT, see where people fall. i find bbt's semantics points at least mildly interesting and i feel like other people have stepped up while they've receded. will elaborate on other reads today.

[petapan]

basically i think bs2000's "small hunch" bit in 152 where he's drawing a connection between players but not overtly suggesting they are teammates or whatever, reads like a very real thought to me, come across as someone legitimately thinking about the game. i do that sort of thing where i'll see an interaction and consider if it could possibly be a teammate interaction a lot, but i tend not to out it because you're very unlikely to be correct on those type of reads on day 1, especially in a game with only 2 scum. scum can fake arguments about people being teamed and often do because it's easier to argue associations, but the way bs2000 is doing that wasn't intent on selling anyone on voting juice, just "oh here's a thought i had, take note of this"

for bulbazoor 173 just reads very town to me. that looks like someone who is scumhunting. i believe the suspicion and he's pressuring his target to contribute rather than just calling for his head.

[petapan]

try editing it and only posting it in chunks? if you're doing something problematic with bbcode then it'll be easier to figure out if it's isolated in a small segment

[petapan]

petagan is just vote spreading to seem town - we caught mafia already

why do you think i'm faking it, juice? you know, i think i was unfair to you at the start and that was very rude of me. talk to me, juice.

[petapan]

I really don’t like your response here, sounds like you’re post hoc justifying your bulba read, like what does reasonable and agreeable even mean in this context?

Like I agree with most of what they are saying. Except for their read on Meg. I feel like the semantics arguing, or just the weird arguing over Bulba not having an issue with FPs entrance feels like town vs town bickering. But Bulba hasn't done anything odd to me. Although they have had their vote parked this entire time and hasn't gotten any flak for it from anybody.

@petapan, you jumped your vote around to 5 different players now. Which players are you comfortable to voting out D1?

For me, I am good voting out BBT or Juice the most, I could maybe do furtive or fancypants.

i move my vote around frequently because pressuring people is the best way to get a read on their alignment. especially on day 1 reads are going to be in flux pretty frequently because i'm starting with nothing and i'll vote someone and then they'll towntell.

fancypants or esires would be my choice for a flip if you made me king but i'm not going to stop the bbt wagon if it goes through

[petapan]

actually furtiveglance has been underwhelming since his start, i'm not seeing any depth to his reads

[petapan]

eh hm might be a playstyle thing but he could probably do with some scrutiny. wouldn't vote him probably but more null as of right now

[petapan]

well this game is now very scuffed

[petapan]

fwiw i thought juice was actively trolling the game but not particularly likely to be scum. don't favor voting out the slot and pushes that have remained stagnant there are suspect.

[petapan]

UNVOTE:

Read quickly through, the caterpillar and fancy pants look town, the bbt wagon looks really inorganic and I don't know why peta is a consensus tow read.

do tell

[petapan]

i could point out that BBT has been at E-1 for overa day and has done...very little for over 24 hours which isreally not the response i'd expect from town in this spot. like does he really care if he gets miskilled or not?

[petapan]

I'm happy to call petapan innocent until someone susses them later.

hm seetting up to push me on a future day i see your tricks

[petapan]

UNVOTE:

i think as of right now there is probable scum in bbt/esires/fp and i don't think bbt and esires are aligned. bbt/f is like the level 0 solve but i dunno if fancypants is careless with his partner like that. bbt needs to get in here and post. realize the game was in a lull over the weekend but hasnt felt like he had the urgency to do anything after being run up

[petapan]

Derr that came across wrong twice. Let's try again.

Why is BS2000 not in your list of probable scum? Are you reading them town? If so, help me out please, why?

i had thought him having a "small hunch" was towny although admittedly it's a micro moment and the overall body of work is inconclusive

[petapan]

if this weren't a newbie game i'd have hammered bbt into the ground already

[petapan]

@meg, I get that the bbt wagon came off off a shit post, but

I don't think it's been the worst post this game!

I don't think it's like, lock scum, which the wagon suggests.

@peta, Tell about ym read on you? I just don't see lock!town in the way other people seem to. I don't think you are scummy, just not town. I don't think I implied it's due to activity, the read on you from others, as hard as furtive thinks but I do think it's part of it.

@bs, bulb was a weird one to read because his posts were kind of all over the place. I have meg as nully.

if you think there are worse posts why ave you not called them out, that seems weird

if the wagon is inorganic who are you pointing to as a culprit

[petapan]

i want an answer from bella and then i'm hammering

[petapan]

no i want you to actually answer the things i just asked you lol

[petapan]

@peta, there's been a fair few posts from furtive, juice, even meg that I haven't liked: I haven't done as in-depth a go through as rad, but I wasnnt seeing much that made bbts post stand out as a particularly awful take: and if he'd been around more to chat it over, I'm not sure the wagon jumps up that quick..in terms of bad votes on it, everyone reacts fairly the same, but furtives vote is just dropped on and unchallenged.

@rad, it's mainly wagon analysis for later - his has been a massively active wagon, juice was on and off it, megs been on it for ages, peta's vote is everywhere, even the counter on esire that grew quite quickly is interesting. It isn't a 'if bbt is X than someone is y' thing at all, you are right, it's more 'this feels useful for later' - remember when bbt was scum in the newbie and I did a quick vca and bbt looked awful in hindsight?

okay ty

[petapan]

good attempt but i unvoted and esires is almost within prod range so a reaction test isn't going to be effective

[petapan]

fwiw i thought on it and the stuff i felt was unaligning for bbt/esires isn't that good so i would retract that, only two players i would say are for sure town if bbt is scum are meg and BS. (and i think he's more likely scum than not and if he's town i'm pissed at him for replacing in and playing this way)

[petapan]

zzzz other people can react then esires
VOTE: BBt [/v)

ye but what would that tell you? "omg why hammer" is a stock reaction from both town and mafia in that instance

[petapan]

fwiw i thought on it and the stuff i felt was unaligning for bbt/esires isn't that good so i would retract that, only two players i would say are for sure town if bbt is scum are meg and BS. (and i think he's more likely scum than not and if he's town i'm pissed at him for replacing in and playing this way)

Who's the he here?
@fp, why? Ask me questions about it maybe?

bbt obv

[petapan]

VOTE: bbt

[petapan]

hey thanks for the carry, i kind of mentally checked out after i died but always good to eat the NK as a VT in a 9p game and keep the PRs alive


wish BBT had fought his elim a little harder but he had a great read on esires that i shamelessly plagiarized

kinda funny that my questioning of bella seemed to get blown up, wasn't even really suspicious of her, just...wanting her to explain what she actually meant, but it worked out in the end so hey cheers and all that

[petapan]

oh and thanks to everyone who replaced in, sucked this game had to have so many but you did a good job keeping the game alive

[petapan]

I also don't see how esires was so scummy. I kept coming back to esires feeling towny and bs2000 feeling scummy on my rereads.

i think bbt's reasoning was petty solid and esires just sort of blandly omgusing him without much else wasn't great

imo bs2000 was just - had thoughts too elaborate for inexperienced scum

[petapan]

Everyone calling me obvious scum. OK. Guess I have to improve my scumgame then or just hope I don't flip it anymore

it takes practice - i went 0/4 in my first 4 scumgames in forum mafia and look at me now. no one starts off being good.

(i didn't think you were obvious though!)

[petapan]

I think this queue is officially dead. Changes should come soon or this site will follow.

yeah they need to just combine it with central park and mayfair club and only run newbie level games when there are actual newbies that join and need/want a low impact game to learn.

The road to central park and the Mayfair Club

yeah the pipeline of new users just isn't strong enough now to justify it

I think this queue is officially dead. Changes should come soon or this site will follow.

yeah they need to just combine it with central park and mayfair club and only run newbie level games when there are actual newbies that join and need/want a low impact game to learn.

The road to central park and the Mayfair Club

I probably won't play a Newbie game soon. It's partly the NewD3 setup I'm getting a bit tired of. Seems that PR actions/claiming/getting smoked N1 are almost more important than people's reads and what the game should actually be about. Thanks for carrying the modding HEM.

There is a chat in site stuff I think about the queues, I think there was a decent suggestion. I personally think that there isn't enough difference in a newbie now to make it worthwhile (I'm old, my first newbies didn't have day chat and mason newbies is just....wild.)

i like the comfort of playing a reliable semi-open but i think the queue has somewhat outlived its purpose tbh

i honestly wonder whether shoehorning new players into a very dry open setup has proved counterproductive to new player retention in the long run, i suspect a lot of new players are put off by how boring it is. i kind of think one of the best parts of forum mafia is getting to play creative setups that do something interesting in terms of mechanics/flavor and you don't really get that with this setup. i have tried to be encouraging in games but i'm not great at it and i kind of suck at outreach.


attitude historically was that new players needed to "learn the ropes" before diving into the deep end but for the most part when new players actually show up these days they're reasonably well versed in social deduction usually and rarely need to be sequestered to a kiddie pool end of the site. might be better off just having them experience more typical games with closed setups and unknown roles

haven't touched the meta threads in site suggestions because i kind of dislike the posting that goes on in those and not sure it actually gets read by site staff but i might chime in there

(i do like the queue existing as a sneaky way to figure out who's a real newbie versus an alt, but lol)

[petapan]

Since we're on the topic and I'm still technically a newbie, I think the biggest off-putting thing for me w/regards to wanting to stick around and play more is the length of the games. When I'm in a game I want to be super active but when a day is 7+ days long and a night is 2+ long, there's a ton of boring downtime and the game becomes stagnant. I tried to fill that by playing multiple games at once but what happens is activity requirements then spike too high during busy times and still crash into nothing other times. Shorter day and night would emphasize "this is the time to play" I think and make games more active in general because you're committing to a smaller amount of time. You can't expect people to commit to consistent heavy activity for the next month and that's what these day lengths require for the game to be consistently interesting.

Beyond that, I've also never gotten a PR so that's been fairly boring. This newbie setup feels weighted against scum and that makes scum even less interesting to play. 3rd party could also spice things up.

i hate to even say this because it increases the likelihood you'll flee us at the first available opportunity but the phase lengths here are abnormal to most other forums - probably a byproduct of the site's age and the mentality of doing things like we always have. for me personally i greatly prefer it - as an adult with a day job, the daily time commitment expected in most places is unrealistic and insane. here i can check in once a day for an hour or two which is a reasonable time investment (of course i'm slacking off to post during the day now, but no matter). i recognize though that ain't for everyone and the way people use the internet now is vastly different from how it was even 10 years ago


it's historically been very hard to get games with shorter deadlines to fill here and when they do people often slack off abnormally hard in them (somehow they post less frequently than in a normal length game) so i don't anticipate site meta shifting to accommodate that. there was an attempt at a blitz queue several years ago but it got killed off pretty quickly.