In post 2705, GuiltyLion wrote:
so fmpov, knowing my alignment, after I got the King I voted for, I haven't gotten a council I've wanted, a single flip I've wanted this game, and I'm about to be limmed.
Are you? My assumption is that we're going to end up executing dwlee, unless they become magically obvtown when they next have time to post.
This is exactly why GL's post is purely performative and not a genuine real post--
GuiltyLion right now is at no risk of death.
He literally has two fucking votes on him.
Two.
And he is convinced that one of those votes (me) is scum.
Dwlee meanwhile has, consistently, sat at 7.
Do you want to tell me with a straight face that--with Dwlee at 7 votes and GL at two--that GL's 2705/2707 are in any way shape or form genuine?
'Cause they're self-evidently not.
If GL were town he would fucking KNOW that he was in no real danger. (Okay, so that's not the best wording since a scum-GL would know, too.)
So why is GL
acting
like he is in danger when he knows he is not?
Because, quite simply: he is aiming to look good, without doing anything that actually IS good.
In post 2715, Datisi wrote: i feel like scum-him would be trying to much more violently push something out rather than give out these reads.
You mean like his hard-push for Dwlee that has zero actual reasoning for it, his push on me which is purely him OMGUSing, and his push on Shea because Shea had the audacity actually present reasons for why Dwlee is town?
That sure seems like violently pushing from GL to me!!!
In post 1933, Thestatusquo wrote:I think dwlee is town. I know that a lot of people are pointing out things like their refusal to engage super hard with the attacks on them in a non-defensive way and their refusal to get more involved in the game via more aggressive posture on actually forming reads, and the thing is I agree that those are textbook scummy things from a motivational sense, but going even further into a motivational sense those things are likely to get you limmed, so its hard to see there being strong motivation for town or scum to play like this.
But anyway, my point is in practice when I see these things being attacked in games of mafia they're just way more likely to be town being attacked by scum than they are scum being attacked by town. These sorts of attacks just flip town far more often than they flip scum in my experience, and I'd be surprised if people had different experiences. A recent example of this was something smart in pictures, which I mentioned in the PT and datisi told me that they didn't see those parallels at all, which honestly I think is kind of odd because I think they're pretty obvious. I get that from a meta perspective dwlee isn't S_S, but I just don't get the sense that this response is something that is more likely to come from scum than town when I don't think it should come to either.
I also think (and I am barfing as I say this) that the wagonomics here give me a lot of pause. The wagon sprung up from 9 people who have frankly said not very much about it and no viable counter wagon has even started to form, even after I as the king who theoretically is universally town read tried to start one. I just...this is not how day 1 scum wagons tend to happen, and while I do think this isn't a typical day 1 it seems weird to me still.
Part of my lingering doubts on GL Datisi and VPB et al is I would expect this to give them pause, and it doesn't seem to have done so. I feel like that group of players should have enough mafia experience to see the things I'm seeing here and at least consider them, but I haven't seen much evidence of that, really. GL says that part of the way he considers scum reads is by compiling a list of town pings and then asking himself who is the least town. I do think there's probably some truth to that, which is why I asked him to point out him saying so in another game, which he did do, but I think it lacks nuance. I agree that dwlee hasn't done anything affirmatively townie, but I would expect GL to be considering context outside of the direct actions of dwlee themselves, and it makes me feel kind of squicked out that he doesn't appear to be doing that very much. Same with Datisi. Same with VPB.
In post 2164, Thestatusquo wrote:I've already stated several times I'm not executing someone today unless I strongly think the person who would be otherwise limmed is town.
In post 2341, Thestatusquo wrote:I've been toying with the idea of just shooting you (MariaR) tbh.
In post 2294, GuiltyLion wrote:Shea has threatened to execute instead of limming Dwlee today but frankly I am starting to feel Dwlee remains the best lim today and I want to make my opinion known
VOTE: Dwlee
I could stay on MariaR but idk if her entry really comes from scum, I said this in the PT but the idea that scum!Maria pushed me haphazardly, then backed down once it was clear it was going poorly and pivot to Dwlee, seems a little too sloppy to be scum to me
furtive I haven't liked up until recently but I'm kinda getting loose town vibes from his responses to pressure and engagement with me, esp 2276
We absolutely should lim here. TSQ has a deeply unexplained townread here and plans to use his execution if we don't move off, or so he says in the supporters thread.
If dwlee flips scum, I'm deeply concerned to say the least. E-2. More votes gogogogo
>Shea said he had a strong townread on Dwlee.
>Shea said he would ONLY execute to save a
strong townread
(per the above, this includes Dwlee).
>Shea said he was considering MariaR for the execute. (Per the above, he would only pull the trigger to save a strong townread, so while considering her, he wouldn't actually execute her needlessly.)
>GuiltyLion and VP Baltar, knowing the three above, voted Dwlee up to L-1.
>Per the above, where Shea said he'd execute to save a strong townread, and had a strong townread on Dwlee, and was considering executing MariaR, he executed MariaR to save Dwlee.
This is something that VP Baltar and GuiltyLion can't pretend isn't a logical one follows the other.
Nothing in the above is factually wrong.
They say it is, but every time they say it is, I have shown how it remains true and their 'proof' of it not being true is actually not proof at all. (I need to do that in this thread admittedly.)
More than that, let's take a look at some wagons:
In post 1930, mastina wrote:I realize people think my VP Baltar-scumslipped point is invalid and will likely use that to try and say my push on him is invalid.
So let me remind you of the reasons why he is scum even without that.
In post 1495, mastina wrote:As for why VP Baltar: lots of things.
Calling me a good player (he absolutely should not think I am one),
In post 361, VP Baltar wrote:I'd probably townbin andante and andres at this point. Dann and datisi are maybe in town lean territory for me. Dwlee I could see as town who hasn't had a real chance to engage yet.
You and mastina are maybe giving me slightly bad vibes, but that could be my internal objections to anyone trying too hard to shape the day.
Off the top of my head, I think I would null pile everyone else.
Okay I can see why LLD thinks Baltar is scum. This post is v easy for scum to make and doesn't look like an actual real town spread, so much as an attempt to make an actual real town spread which is too clean/neat lacking in chaos to actually be true.
In post 574, VP Baltar wrote:I think Rhaenyra is probably scum trying to burn through their posts so they don't have to participate later today. Prove me wrong by not posting.
What about dann specifically gives you good vibes?
Their chats in the scum PT.
This looks like scum theater,
LLD's read on him with me trusting that LLD is going to have a good read there regardless of her alignment but especially as town,
And in general: nothing VP Baltar has done has looked town to me, outside of a weak random read in the rvs. Since then (and even the rvs content in hindsight given the context of the rest of the game), it has all looked like various shades of scum.
In post 1062, Thestatusquo wrote:Enchant's play this game pretty much exactly matches enchants play in pictures which just finished where enchant was town, so I'm happy enough leaving them alone for now personally.
Enchant's play doesn't seem that townie actually. It's not super engaged in poking people enchant finds scummy in a real way, which they do in my experience.
I can think of one reason why maybe that's the case, but also enchant is better than this as town.
In post 1071, Thestatusquo wrote:Yeah I'm still voting him. I still town read him, I just didnt like that post.
Doesn't seem like it "bothers you a lot" then.
I'm pretty sure a town-VP actually tries to see this thought through, with more pushing at Shea in particular. While he can't vote Shea for elimination, it would still be possible to poke and prod at Shea to get him to actually give more nuanced thoughts--leaving just this comment with no follow-through is scum appearing to be town without actually doing something town. The whole exchange lacks purpose, but is no mere idle thought.
I get that as town not everything you do needs to have followthrough. But VP Baltar
does
follow through, in the extended exchange with Shea, yet in spite of that, this is explicitly doing nothing. It is not sorting Shea. It is not trying to get elaboration. It is just...there, for the sake of being there.
The town is voting for a player to be King, largely based off of how town the player in question is.
The King is the most important decision in the game, as it sets the entirety of the game to follow.
The King literally gets to dictate
which players in the game are power roles
--don't fucking pretend that's not a huge thing.
The King gets to dictate the first player to die--which can set the tone of the entire rest of the game.
The King basically gets to set the flow for the entire rest of the game. Don't pretend this isn't true, everyone has pretty much argued this exact point in making their King choices from the getgo. A bad King sets a bad flow of the game, and a scum King sets a
scum flow
to the game.
That sounds like incentive to make a scum King to me!
And, yes, that gives scum extra incentive to try and look town.
Trying to look town, yet not actually being town, has always been one of the biggest scumtells in existence. (The buzzword these days is LAMIST tho I'm not particularly fond of that term.)
But in this game specifically,
there is extra reason for that tell to apply
.
Because while in a normal game the reward for looking town is simply to avoid being eliminated,
In this game, the reward for looking town is
to become the most important part of the game
, setting who gets what power roles and even if failing to become King, having a high chance of becoming one of the power roles and thus denying town that particular role.
And by the way: saying that I am arguing "anyone trying/succeeding to look town is suspect" is disingenous as fuck.
Players who are naturally being town, are town.
It is specifically
trying to force towniness
that is scum--and you, Dannflor, and VP Baltar are all guilty of doing exactly that.
My scumreads on you, Dannflor, and VP Baltar are because you are all being pro-scum while doing things that try to look town without actually being town.
In post 1302, Lady Lambdadelta wrote:I really don't want a VPB king, and I don't really trust him as town at all, so the sudden swing onto VPB is very alarming to me.
(Scum were supporting the wagon--yes, Junko not scum with VP Baltar, but the wagon had scum definitively on it and pushing for it and advocating for it.)
In post 1618, VP Baltar wrote:Also, since a few people are getting limited on posts now, myself included, I think it is a good idea for us to move forward with TSQ king asap. If someone is opposed to this, they should make a clear case for someone better. If you're not opposed, vote Shea and let's get to voting scum out. I think we have pretty thoroughly explored the avenues in the king discussion at this point.
Anyone wondering where the scum influence on voting Shea through can look no further than this, because right here, you have the main culprit behind that election.
Shea was a piss-poor selection for king. He fails the first and largest criteria for King: being universally townread.
While I
believe
Shea to be town, it was not with the conviction needed to elect him as King.
And on top of that, while I know Shea to be a competent player, he is not immune to being influenced by scum.
More than that, this argument was slimey as fuck. We had not in fact thoroughly explored the avenues in the King discussion. Shea being King was NOT something we discussed--at all. Literally at all. There was ZERO discussion about Shea. NONE. So VP Baltar was outright lying here--and y'all believed him.
In post 1611, VP Baltar wrote:So you basically think the scum are getting rolled hard here and essentially have no influence? Seems a little optimistic.
And yet, you said nothing about the opposite position (the one GL argued against), that scum have had a ton of influence.
I wonder why you haven't mentioned that possibility at all?
Could it perhaps be...that you don't want people to realize that you are the scum influencing things?
'Cause from where I'm standing it sure as fuck looks like scum have a lot of influence!
Why didn't you engage with GL arguing basically this, that scum had no influence?
Why the focus on Datisi with this belief, rather than GL with that belief?
Could it perhaps be...because Datisi is town and GL is not???
I wonder!
All of these are valid, but the crux comes from this:
GuiltyLion asked the fallacious-as-fuck "how could scum influence this when by your own reads they aren't voting there?", well guess what?
I found the fucking start of the push for Junko to be King, and it came from someone not voting Junko! Almost as if votes don't tell the whole story of what kinds of influence scum can have. Almost like so much as a single sentence from scum can set momentum towards an outcome they want!
Btw, let's see what VP Baltar had to say about Dwlee prior to this vote:
In post 237, VP Baltar wrote:On dwlee, voted there because I felt like it. I don't have a scummy vibe there at this point, and I think it's pretty unlikely I follow Mastina's proposal.
In post 361, VP Baltar wrote:Dwlee I could see as town who hasn't had a real chance to engage yet.
I think andante is town. You think she's better Queen or on counsel. Like maybe Queen makes some sense because it really might be less power than the council.
Anyone you'd like to see in any of the other PRs specifically?
Scenario 1: Scum are getting negotiated out of power
This is a very solid town and would put scum in the group more out of power: Enchant, Uno, Dwlee, Titus, Rhae, etc.
This is a pretty rosey scenario and seems unlikely to some degree
In post 1618, VP Baltar wrote:I think it is a good idea for us to move forward with TSQ king asap. If someone is opposed to this, they should make a clear case for someone better. If you're not opposed, vote Shea and let's get to voting scum out. I think we have pretty thoroughly explored the avenues in the king discussion at this point.
There is a 74-post difference between VP Baltar voting Dwlee, and Dwlee getting up to L-2.
And that was over the course of less than four hours, too.
No, seriously. Check the timestamps yourself, check the gap in time yourself.
This, from a slot that had NO STATED SCUMREAD on Dwlee prior to voting them.
And this, from someone who HE HIMSELF SAID:
In post 1611, VP Baltar wrote:So you basically think the scum are getting rolled hard here and essentially have no influence? Seems a little optimistic.
(well aside from Bella and Titus I guess?) is on that wagon.
That ain't scum bussing.
That's scum voting for town.
The only vote there I believe to have a reason behind the scumread is Datisi. Literally every other vote on there, they're bullshitting if they say they have reasons to vote Dwlee.
I literally showed you the lack of trajectory from VP Baltar. Tell me, if you iso'd the players who voted Dwlee, how many of them have reasons to suspect him? Rhaenyra is the closest.
The wagon is scumdriven as fuck.
I'm a bit too lazy to track down my full GL case and to do a full breakdown of the wagonomics, and also too exhausted to go into why VP Baltar and GuiltyLion's posts in the Kingsguard PT so condemn them, but basically:
VP Baltar and GuiltyLion and their cohorts have been setting the pace of the game for the majority of the game.
They almost got GuiltyLion as King.
They almost got JunkoChan as King (note that yes, JunkoChan is town but was prone to being influenced by them--a puppet King is a puppet for the scum).
They almost got VP Baltar as King.
They successfully got Shea elected as King.
They campaigned for Shea as King pretending it was something grander than it was.
They sucked up to Shea hoping to be put on Shea's council. They hoped that Shea (similar to JunkoChan) as a King would be vulnerable to being influenced, and if I felt like it, I could prove this by showing Shea's earlier council choices that included one or both of GuiltyLion/VP Baltar on it.
Then, AFTER Shea made his choice and it excluded them both, they voted up Dwlee.
They had no reason to vote Dwlee.
There has never been reasons to vote Dwlee other than "lol they low-content/effort". (Which is not a scumtell, especially not from Dwlee.)
And then they pushed the blame on Shea protecting Dwlee onto Shea, saying it was a mistake to elect Shea when
they were the ones who made it happen
.
I really wish I had the time/effort needed to properly present my case since if I did there would be zero fucking Dwlee voters and we'd have the elimination be a choice between GuiltyLion or VP Baltar.
I’ll be catching up in roughly 24 hours, yell at me if I’m not
Lukewarm kill actually vaguely pushes me away from wanting GL dead? I don’t know why GL would want him dead, unless lukewarm was dead on the money about all his other pushes, though frankly I don’t remember what those were
I don’t think I want Shea dead
My opinion probably won’t change on dwlee unless their posting has suddenly changed but I’ll try to keep an open mind as I’m catching up
I guess my question to Roden and other team dwlee people is what part of their posting doesn’t just feel like antispew?
Dwlee taking on pressure for so long while still giving actual content and reads is just townie for them. Anti-spew!Dwlee usually just shuts up and makes calculated posts to try to give their team a winning chance while also doing everything they can to fuck off right out of the game. They made some posts that feel like messy associatives, especially their most recent read list, and I feel like they're actually trying to survive when putting in that kind of effort now would be more detrimental to their team since they were very likely to die today anyway. It just adds more content for town to analyze and gather associative reads from while still dying anyway.
And besides that, I don't think anything in their ISO or their interactions really warranted two consecutive Days of pressure. Like even if you don't town read Dwlee, I find it hard to believe that so much of the town could come together to strike down scum!Dwlee just based off of their posts.
As a side note, I'm a bit back and forth on Datisi as I go through his ISO but I'm finding it really hard to believe that this was the player that scum!Dwlee would decide to latch onto as their biggest scum read. Regardless of Datisi's alignment, he isn't the kind of player that Dwlee would target as scum especially early on.
In post 2727, MathBlade wrote:Question: Who here TRs Dwlee? I am not asking if you scumread anyone more than Dwlee I am asking if you TR them.
I do.
There is no reason to scumread Dwlee. The reasons presented are all bullshit.
"We need to vote Dwlee for the information"
"We need to vote Dwlee to clear the gamestate situation"
"All the Dwlee voters can't all be scum, therefore wagoning Dwlee is a good thing".
"Dwlee is not posting much, therefore Dwlee scum".
Those are not real reasons.
They are lazy as shit reasons.
But if you actually read what Dwlee has
done
, it radiates town in a way only a town-Dwlee can. The way Dwlee entered into the game lighthearted and carefree, but ended up producing content, in the signature style of not too dead serious but also not too jokey: the town balance that scum can't realistically replicate longterm. They have been casual, and lowkey, but they have given effort and actual thoughts on the gamestate, most of which are good.
If you check their stances you can see a progression of thought and well-reasoned stances whenever they do pop in with content contribution and none of the players pushing Dwlee have so much as ONCE acknowledged it. (Well, Datisi has, he just disagrees with me.) None of the players have so much as once acknowledged that, actually, Dwlee HAS done shit. They're ignoring their content because their content is less visible. But they are very much making it, and the refusal to acknowledge it to wagon Dwlee up is scummy as fuck.
In post 2669, Datisi wrote:i feel like most of mastina's arguments for dwlee can be explained with "wifom" and "scum makes mistakes".
Oh I made better arguments for Dwlee being town than that, but I honestly haven't had the time or energy to copy what I said in the kingsguard PT to the game thread--had I, we'd have a lot more fucking votes on GuiltyLion here because my case IS pretty damn solid and VP/GL's counters to it have been factually wrong and yet they insist that the case is wrong because they're lying their asses off.
Since I unfortunately don't have either the time or the energy for that tho, just know:
Dwlee is town by every metric. They are in their town meta and literally everything they are doing has been town.
The arguments to eliminate Dwlee are the same fallacy over and over again.
"Lots of people believed Dwlee to be scum, therefore we should eliminate Dwlee".
That don't make the people thinking Dwlee to be scum right. Especially not when half of them are scum.
Dwlee is town because they are engaging in a way that is
specifically town for them
. Their thoughts aren't on the entire playerlist, but Dwlee has still given more thoughts than they give as scum, in greater detail than they give as scum. Their stances aren't on the entire playerlist but every read Dwlee has given has had nuance to it beyond the level Dwlee can fake as scum. Dwlee's level of activity is town because Dwlee has been actively engaging.
Dwlee hasn't engaged the entire playerlist but Dwlee has still engaged plenty of the playerlist and don't fucking pretend that they haven't.
I have a really fucking high accuracy when reading Dwlee from dozens of games with them, and I
know
that this is Dwlee as town.
So the wagon on them sucks ass.
Since this was on the bottom of last page I feel the need to bring it to this page. (I ain't hitting the post cap unless I actually DO get into the fiery rage I was in during the night and boy oh boy do I not want to fucking do that, it fucking destroys my life and is unhealthy as shit, becoming literally feverish in a game is not a good thing so like. Shouldn't be an issue unless I am dumb.)
as good as I want it to be, but it should give the replacements something to engage me with if they like.
The scumreads on VP Baltar, GuiltyLion, and Dannflor have all been explained.
Ditto the Rhanyrra, Andres, and Andante reads.
Beyond that tho I admit all of my reads haven't been explained as much as they arguably ought to have been so ask me about a read and I'll give the details.
I strongly believe Titus is scum btw. Low content + the content itself being low effort is a bad look, but what really pings me is that she isn't using the non-supporter PT at all. She has just one post there and it's a nothing post. I feel like she would be using the PT to theorize and discuss the game, but she hasn't been doing so at all. Even if you consider the possible excuse that it's just because she hasn't had the time to do so, she hasn't been asking for updates or summaries from other players. She's more or less just coasting and not really taking any heat for it.
Example of a game where Titus used her PT as much as possible even when she didn't really know what was going on:
After finishing his ISO, Datisi is just north of null for me, tonally this doesn't seem like his scum play. He's not entirely out of his scum range though, and I don't really agree with his reads so that's probably part of why I don't feel comfortable putting him as a town read yet, but that might actually be somewhat +town.
oh cool i can vote dwlee again without it being a y-1
VOTE: dwlee
pls don't put them at y-1 yet though, i think there's day actions still waiting to happen
I will straight up disregard all reason if you have a PR dream again. You can come back and be like, “I dreamt that Locke is a N2 Bulletproof Multitasking Cop and Self-Targeting Doctor,” and I will go, “Okay, Locke kill it is then.”
, and this doesn't just go for you in the event that you're town Shea, this goes for everyone.
The read I want people to be "informed" of when I flip green is that
VPB IS TOWN
.
From pretty much early-mid D1 this game, there has been a
concerted
effort by slots like Mastina, Shea, and now Drap on D2 to assert that VPB/GL are a wolf duo because we townread each other and because we supported ourselves to be King, and because we supported to lim Dwlee. This has been a nonstop push against us to the point where it's just mindlessly repeated by everyone and I'm afraid people aren't going to bother to reassess if I'm limmed and just mindlessly roll into "well we were wrong on GL but that means VPB is just scum". If you do that, town deserves to lose this game.
As I said before, I have played with scum!VPB twice this year and this ain't it. His vibes are way different to me this game, I agree with basically everything he's posting - which has never happened before, and most of all Datisi has also expressed a strong TR on VPB for much the same reasons which makes me more confident it's correct.
If I'm limmed today, VPB should be considered IC-tier unlimmable on the back of how confident I am that he is town, and I hope people actually go back and start looking at how repeatedly our opinions and reads and voices were minimized in an attempt to wrest power from a Datisi-VPB-GL-Andres townbloc that was forming early in the game and could have easily run this game differently.
That brings me to a larger gamestate point, which is that it should also be clear to you on my elimination that
town is not currently in control of this game
. I'm town and I've noticed being gradually more and more boxed out of having any influence. Early on, seemed like people agreed with me and liked the idea of VPB King, or myself as King. Gradually, that shifted, and we went with a compromise TSQ option because Mastina et. al had made enough noise about "GL/VPB SCUM!!" that people didn't like it anymore. Next, Shea starts disagreeing with my reads in the supporter PT and goes against them with his council picks. At the time I could see that coming from town - sure, King should be a bit paranoid of his supporters, he might want checks and balances against scenarios where he's being buddied or scum are manipulating him. What I did get frustrated by was when Shea actually indicated that he thought VPB was town in the supporters PT
after
he made his council picks and after I had lobbied him aggressively to put VPB instead of Junko on there. NEXT, Shea went against the will of the majority of the town (including myself) to herovig a townie and save a lurky, scummy, slot. And after doing this there's been not a ton of resistance to going with Shea's preferred lim on D2!
so fmpov, knowing my alignment, after I got the King I voted for, I haven't gotten a council I've wanted, a single flip I've wanted this game, and I'm about to be limmed. When you see me flip town, you should be looking for who the wolves were that worked to ensure this outcome, that I was gradually taken down and pushed out of the game.
Please
reassess townreads on players like mastina, Shea, etc who have been working overtime to make sure their narrative wins, and
please
objectively look at how little we've done to catch scum so far.
Drapion and Mastina mentioned in the non-supporter PT that this looks like a major scum/perspective slip. From what I understand, GL has been a major player and influence in this game...yet he claims that town is not in control of this game. It feels like there's some cognitive dissonance here and I don't think it can come from town.
a major influence in the game. He's on the leading wagon and wouldn't even have the most blood on his hands on a green Dwlee flip, I think Datisi would look a lot worse at that point. Meanwhile, his own wagon only has two votes...how the hell is that inducing a panic here? Does it really make sense to scream into the heavens that town is doomed and has no control over this game when he's getting exactly what he wants and isn't in any real danger of being voted out? Town!GL is normally so much more collected and nuanced than this, not just from looking at his town play in hindsight but also when I played a Mason game with him. He doesn't particularly care for self-preservation as town, so seeing such an extreme reaction just from being suspected by players who don't have much influence in the game doesn't add up here.
- completely static reads that have not evolved since like page 5 (most notably scumreads of me/dann)
- an utterly bad faith interpretation of my joking post about me not townreading them for the same reason i was (very slightly) townreading baltar - instead of assuming it's a joke, or you know, ASKING ABOUT IT, they concluded it's a bad faith agenda to push them or something (which makes no sense when you actually consider it was page 5 and it was an absence of a small townread for something basically meaningless)
- even when presented with these reasons, they doubled down and didn't re-evaluate
- they are usually not shit at reading me, and even when they did scumread town-me once, they ended up re-evaluating
- all other reads they have are like, basically random names that don't have any sort of explanation to them
- their content amounts to them doing fuck nothing (i was okay excusing this earlier but at this point it's really bad)
- they made a weird "why is datisi pushing me when there are so many other lurkers he can push" comment which like, completely misunderstand why i have problems with their slot and i think town-dwlee would understand why i'm pushing them
- this may be just me but i feel like they're in antispew mode currently
I will straight up disregard all reason if you have a PR dream again. You can come back and be like, “I dreamt that Locke is a N2 Bulletproof Multitasking Cop and Self-Targeting Doctor,” and I will go, “Okay, Locke kill it is then.”
I feel like that all could just as easily be bad town play and a low effort Day 1 on their end. I'm not sure what scum!Dwlee's end game is supposed to be by playing in a way that consistently brings them negative attention and then doubling down on it instead of just, not doing any of that. You're not an easy push, and if they have a history of reading you decently well then it seems off to not even pretend to emulate that as scum. And I don't think the bare minimum of "make more content so people leave you alone" is too much for scum buddies to ask from them either. Scum!Dwlee would have to be pre-emptively throwing in the towel and leaving their scum buddies in a bad spot.
That isn't to say I haven't seen Dwlee throw in the towel as scum before, but the two times I did it was because one time they were getting hard bussed, and the other time they replaced in and immediately got hit with three guilty results. If they flipped scum this game I'd be confused on why they couldn't just fake content, or distance themself from a buddy, or fake an associative with town. On the other hand, I could understand why Dwlee would feel more and more lackluster as the game went on if they flipped green.
I'm 50/50 on the "why isn't Datisi pushing other lurkers" thing. I think your reasoning is valid, but I also think scum!Dwlee would understand why you're pushing them just as much as town!Dwlee would, and wouldn't make that argument. "Why me" is just a awful thing in general for scum to say, but I could see town!Dwlee saying that if they thought their own reasoning was solid and thought your case on them was bad or cherry picked.
In post 2565, Andresvmb wrote:That post of yours @Junko is blatant emotional manipulation and will be summarily ignored. If you can’t make cogent arguments defending your position, then you just throwing a tantrum is anti-Town.
I'll do as i please, i gave you enough reasons to consider my position, but you ignored them, let's lim dwelee, that's what you want no? Then do it
You gave a really shitty reason to not want to move your vote, which I attacked. I would much rather you make a point about DW’s alignment and not what would happen if they flip Town.
No, because my reads are Bad, i'm wrong and You are right, so go ahead lim dweelee
@Math
I highly suggest you check out their ISO on your own but as you can see Junko was Pushing GL but evil Andre comes into the thread and has stuff to say about that one.
But once Junko disappears, Andres voted GL then voted back to Dwlee and I believe their vote on GL was a distancing tactic.
So after defending GL for a complete day and voting them for King, you think I put a vote on them, only to waffle back, as a distancing tactic? What kind of logic is this? Have you seen me distance before? Because this isn’t it.
And being sussed because I’m “active and pushing” has got to be the most ridiculous read ever. But you do you Johnny.
In post 2809, Thestatusquo wrote:Just to reiterate. The situation where...I decided to give a power role, which I could only give to one of 5 people, to the slot who I thought was most likely to be town....Again, before you even replaced into the game?
Ok, sure.
There is no dilemma. You are just literally spouting nonsense.
Yes because scum you planned on NK’ing me in that theory. You could give me anything besides BP and it wouldn’t matter.
After all the nonsense you just spewed, I wouldn’t be making guesses as to who is going to get NK’ed. Just my 2 cents.
In post 2842, Roden wrote:When did Johnny sus you for being active and pushy?
The actual SR is not here. It’s in a PT somewhere. But the reasoning put out for everyone to see is that I’m active and pushy. Maybe I’m being overly critical, but they haven’t really explained their read beyond that statement, unless I’m missing something.
In post 2705, GuiltyLion wrote:
so fmpov, knowing my alignment, after I got the King I voted for, I haven't gotten a council I've wanted, a single flip I've wanted this game, and I'm about to be limmed.
Are you? My assumption is that we're going to end up executing dwlee, unless they become magically obvtown when they next have time to post.
This is exactly why GL's post is purely performative and not a genuine real post--
GuiltyLion right now is at no risk of death.
He literally has two fucking votes on him.
Two.
And he is convinced that one of those votes (me) is scum.
Dwlee meanwhile has, consistently, sat at 7.
Do you want to tell me with a straight face that--with Dwlee at 7 votes and GL at two--that GL's 2705/2707 are in any way shape or form genuine?
'Cause they're self-evidently not.
If GL were town he would fucking KNOW that he was in no real danger. (Okay, so that's not the best wording since a scum-GL would know, too.)
So why is GL
acting
like he is in danger when he knows he is not?
Because, quite simply: he is aiming to look good, without doing anything that actually IS good.
I will state that I think this is a bad take because GL did very much have a lot of votes on them at one point. So them not being caught up in the number of votes and thinking that they’re close to death is plausible, though wrong.
roden, i think there's a difference between "bad town play/low effort" and what they are doing here. some things can be excused as low effort. completely missing the point on things multiple times, doubling down on it, and showing zero nuanced thought even when they are around is not "low effort". you don't have to effort to show some thoughts about the game as town, to townies it comes naturally. it's not coming naturally to them.
"scum wouldn't play this bad" is not something that convinces me. at the time, their choices were to either double down on it, or actually have some thoughts on the game, because they can't just lurk indefinitely. and they were already under heavy pressure iirc. it's not easy to dig yourself out as scum.
and i just walked out of a game where a scum did spend quite a bit of their time shitpushing me for zero gain, so "why would scum push you?" is not something that changes my mind.
and i guess i kind of disagree on "scum-dwlee would understand why you're pushing them as much as town-dwlee would". i think that kind of stuff takes extra processing power for scum than for town. but that's besides my point, because i don't think that response *comes from town*. it's deliberately a bad faith argument. it's not going to convince anyone, because even if you scumread me you can tell it's a flawed argument. it reeks of doubling down for the sake of doubling down. i could maybe excuse this if the situation was different (i think townies can do purposefully bad faith arguments sometimes) but this doesn't feel like a situation it applies because i have been very clear what my issues with dwlee are and i don't think they're invalid.
I will straight up disregard all reason if you have a PR dream again. You can come back and be like, “I dreamt that Locke is a N2 Bulletproof Multitasking Cop and Self-Targeting Doctor,” and I will go, “Okay, Locke kill it is then.”
In post 2842, Roden wrote:When did Johnny sus you for being active and pushy?
The actual SR is not here. It’s in a PT somewhere. But the reasoning put out for everyone to see is that I’m active and pushy. Maybe I’m being overly critical, but they haven’t really explained their read beyond that statement, unless I’m missing something.
In post 2844, Andresvmb wrote:Then again, I haven’t read every post in the PTs just yet - I’m catching up here first.
Must be in the council PT, he didn't mention you in the non-supporter PT.
@mastina, you think I’m LockTown, but we have literally almost directly opposite views of the game, and I’m one of the players voting for DW. As you can tell, I’ve ISO’ed most of GL’s posts (I still have to finish that effort), so it’s not like I can’t fathom why they would be SR’ed. It’s mostly the strategic component I don’t understand. Like GL never makes the NK right? They’re broadly suspected, and don’t need to find themselves with a guilty on them. So why shoot Luke? Who exposes them as having the game totally wrong and making their main push the day prior confirmed Town? That’s what I don’t get. I mean there are a few takes Luke did post, one being LLD+GL as a Team, but LLD hasn’t really attracted much attention despite their complete lack of effort after being left out of most of the mechanical aspects of the game, so maybe they weren’t wrong there? I just don’t see the need for Luke to get shot. You probably continue fighting them today (particularly since what, GL has attracted so many “followers”), and maybe you execute them later. I just don’t see why you would give more reasons to the King, who already suspects there, to use their power to potentially execute you during the day. That’s the part that’s missing for me - the gain. No one’s reads are rock solid D1, and Luke still had plenty of holes (and had admitted to only using like 20% of their focus on this).
In post 2822, Roden wrote:I think they would be in anti-spew mode and just generally not finding motivation to post if they were scum and getting hard pressured for two Days straight.
what do you consider to be "anti-spew mode" and what makes you think dwlee is not in it right now?
I will straight up disregard all reason if you have a PR dream again. You can come back and be like, “I dreamt that Locke is a N2 Bulletproof Multitasking Cop and Self-Targeting Doctor,” and I will go, “Okay, Locke kill it is then.”
