Open 875 - The Kindgom of Zeal: The Queens Chosen - GAME OVER

[Ranger]

Mod: 24 hour V/LA

Since game just started, can give this tho.

{Save The Dragons, Gimli, furtiveglance, Cephrir}
{Ethel}
{Sail}
{Korina, Lady Lambdadelta (Detective Penguin, Radical Rat, Umlaut)}
{redFF}

VOTE: redFF

Be back tomorrow, hopefully.

V/LA Acknowledged!

[Ranger]

Me in top tier on page 1? Now I really am malding

By a technicality. I didn't have any real townreads. The top tier was weak townleans.

This is gonna be frustrating for you. I'm sorry in advance.

Confused, actually.

Pretty sure role flips in setup but not night of acting if I remember correctly so will say I act N1. (I should double-check that but full disclosure; I actually forgot this was an open. Thanks to how flavored it was I thought it was a theme. xD)

VOTE: Ranger

I don't see LLD opening this way as scum but it's not worth the effort of debating my alignment with her.

{Lady Lambdadelta}
{Save The Dragons, Gimli, furtiveglance, Cephrir}
{Ethel}
{Sail}
{Korina, (Detective Penguin, Radical Rat, Umlaut)}
{redFF}
(Now it is the second-to-top tier which is weak townleans.)

[Ranger]

Pretty sure role flips in setup but not night of acting if I remember correctly so will say I act N1. (I should double-check that but full disclosure; I actually forgot this was an open. Thanks to how flavored it was I thought it was a theme. xD)

Confirmed this; roles flip but not night so I've claimed what I need to.

[Ranger]

Ranger is very scum

i beg you, come out and act sus so i can find all of you before page 5

I've some bad news for your solve.

[Ranger]

{Lady Lambdadelta}
{Save The Dragons, Gimli}
{Sail, Detective Penguin, Ethel}
{Korina, (Radical Rat, Umlaut), Cephrir}
{furtiveglance}
{redFF}

[Ranger]

my first game onsite was with ranger in diffusion of power. memories.

Well that narrows down the number of players you could be significantly since I've only 3 but I sadly can't tell instantly who you were back then, sorry. <3

every SINGLE one has the tell

I'm quite certain I don't have anything which would be called "the tell".

Perhaps you're thinking of someone else?

[Ranger]

you can't get me to townread you by restoring things to their rightful order

Just realized LLD's not the only one I need to remind.

You seem to be confusing me with someone else. You've never played with ME before.

Why are people pretending like it's that hard to figure out who I am an alt of?

Well while you're the first person onsite people associate with penguins, you don't have a monopoly on them altogether. Especially for alts.

how u got all these reads after 7 posts

By reading.

[Ranger]

But I have played with you, Ranger. You were literally scum with me.

Yes, I'm aware. I wasn’t saying you and I haven't played together. (That part was specific to Cephrir.)
I was saying you seem to be confusing me with someone else (that was the part meant for both of you).

I certainly have enough scumgames to have scumtells. The one you're applying seems meant for someone else. It genuinely COULDN’T apply to me, because I haven’t played until my return this year.

[Ranger]

I am both confused and amazed at what you all are able to read, but I will try my best to learn this secret language so I may assist in the reading of things.

Ethel same, me every game

VOTE: Gimli

Self-reminder to sort these when home.
I don’t think all are town or all are scum.

[Ranger]

Mobile readslists are a pain, and am too busy for a full one.
Have a temporary list.
{LLD, Gimli} (LLD down + Gimli up)
{Penguin*} (need to explain this)
{Nulls}{nonposters}{temporarily, the 3 I need to sort}
{redFF}

It’s obvious redFF is scum piggybacking off LLD's erroneous scumread, but I don’t expect her to realize this until I flip town. (Small chance LLD’s actually scum, since a town-LLD I'd expect to be self-aware her hard-pushing p1 warps the game, but I still think town's more likely.)

redFF is obvscum tho, cruising off an effectively free D1.

[Ranger]

Ih wow, Ranger is in this game! Hi Ranger!

Hi!!!
Can’t properly play for another few hours, but decided to sneak some posts in.
Will speak to you then! <3

[Ranger]

Hi, still a few hours from a desktop, promise I'll respond to everything then, but for now:

I don't think LLD has said what the tell is, so how do you know it can't apply to you

You lack critical information. (Context.)
I know what the tell is because I know what LLD is referring to.
LLD has used this tell many times before.
Many, MANY times.
I have the tell memorized because I was a spectator in every game it was used. (Literally

every

game it was used, I spectated. Without exception.)

I know the tell doesn’t apply to me because every use of the tell--EVERY use of it--was at one player (without exception). It is a tell specific to that player. LLD doesn’t use it for any other player. Just one.

And thus, I know the tell doesn’t apply to me because I am not that player. As a player, I've been hiatus since 2019 (maybe, idk, don’t remember if I played that year), previously 2016 before that. (I only returned to playing this year.) The tell LLD is referring to didn’t start being used until after I had stopped playing.

LLD of all people should know that, too; it’s genuinely baffling she’s implying she doesn’t.


As for the self-vote, it’s simply efficiency.

There’s not going to be any elimination other than me unless LLD miraculously realizes she’s off-base. Her push warps the game in an unhealthy way.

Arguing with LLD is a waste of time and effort. I'll point out that she really should know better, I'll correct her, I'll clarify, but ultimately she has the erroneous read. The impetus to change is on her; nothing *I* do will change her mind.

I know this from said past experience spectating. If I thought she was scum, it'd be worth engaging, but I feel town is more likely.

My time is better spent giving reads for after my flip.

Will do precisely that in a few hours.

[Ranger]

some other minor things: LLD is a tentative townread cause she is deathtunneling a slot since very early and I don't see wolves doing that enough. sail's scumclaiming post was really awkward but I don't think is scummy. penguin seems intense this game which is good.

I agree with these takes, with caveats to them.

VOTE: Gimli

Thinking about it, I feel this is +town for Sail. Hopping off the Ranger wagon onto Gimli I don't think is scum there.

Ethel same, me every game

Thinking about it, I don't think furtiveglance is scum with Ethel, but looking at 82/83, I don't think both are town; I think one of these two is scum.

Have a temporary list.
{LLD, Gimli} (LLD down + Gimli up)
{Penguin*} (need to explain this)
{Nulls}{nonposters}{temporarily, the 3 I need to sort}
{redFF}

Time for a better one.

{Gimli}
{Lady Lambdadelta}
{Save The Dragons, Sail}
{Detective Penguin}
{Korina, (Radical Rat), Umlaut, Cephrir}
{furtiveglance | Ethel}
{redFF}

To explain the Penguin read, if it were PenguinPower on his main I'd be inclined to think his posts were +scum--counterintuitively, because they look +town. However, Detective Penguin isn't on the PenguinPower account. If the meta isn't 1:1, then Detective Penuin's posts looking +town could be exactly what they look like; +town. So, tentatively, trusting Detective Penguin's meta isn't identical to PenguinPower, +town posts get a townread.

[Ranger]

Explain Dragons and Gimli townreads?

Kinda surprised you remember my play well enough to call 89 town but apparently don't remember I get page one readslists. :P

It was purely vibes on that page. I liked Gimli's intro.
I didn't like furtiveglance's.
I felt STD's 'hiya' was town by gut. 12/19 could go either way but didn't reverse this. (I don't townread casual vibes from StD the same way I would LLD/Cephrir, at least on p1.)
Sails's cheeky wrong call of first felt +town as an rvs opener.
Loosely, I liked Cephrir's casualness.
My townread on Ethel was from erroneously believing this was a Theme game and believing 16 was a breadcrumb to some kind of PR. Rereading it remembering this is a flavored open, it's dead null.
I liked LLD's casual vibes in 18/20.

[Ranger]

Is it obvious? Im not so sure...

Well you've given zero thoughts on any players.

If you're not scum you're sure doing a good job of being +scum.

alright, since you say i'm confusing you with someone else: can you explain why redff is scum?

Explain? Yes. Coherently to your standards? Probably not. :P

17 was a stiff opener.
71 skips all the content prior to make a post lacking it.
73 was the fifth vote on me. Sail voted elsewhere, so it was only L-3, but it was reasonless joining the only wagon in the game--on a player I happen to know is town. If my suspicion LLD's town is correct, this action is extra-suspect because it's hiding behind a town player's push to vote town.
113 provides the justification, but continues to give no reads.
114 is the very thing LLD is accusing me of--being overdefensive.
127 is deliberately doing nothing.

redFF is blatantly coasting. That's not a guarantee of being scum. It's enough to warrant being my main scumread.

[Ranger]

Spoiler: off-topic

idt ranger strikes me as a resigned wolf.

I never resign. I pursue the action I most believe furthers my wincon. Here as scum it'd be saying nothing to spew scumbuddies/town (since I can't beat LLD). As town it's instead giving reads.

furthermore, she accuses me of this when i haven't said anything that implied my vote has to do with who she is or isn't.

Clarification; my specifying we've never played before was made unrelated to your vote on me. You were making commentary I realized implied you were treating me like someone else. After I realized this, I stepped in to correct it.

Your vote, as well as most of your content, is quite null, and I don't have anything coherent in thoughts there.

Look, I'm killing Ranger today.

Yeah you are, I know you are. Your callout about me being smug in confidence I'll live is wrong because I've every reason to believe you'll succeed.

I (apparently) don't know what formed your meta read on me. I know it's wrong. I know that doesn't matter, because you're convinced otherwise. Nobody except me dies today. Best I can do is claim my night (I did; N1) and form the best reads I can.

[Ranger]

{Gimli}
{Lady Lambdadelta}
{Save The Dragons, Sail}
{Detective Penguin}
{Cephrir, Korina}
{Radical Rat}
{Umlaut}
{furtiveglance | Ethel}
{redFF}

On reflection, this is where I am.

Cephrir's posts are consistently +town. He's skilled enough that doesn't guarantee town, but by feel he's +town by gut.
Similarly so for Korina.

Umlaut's the opposite. The content isn't bad, but looks 'solvey' instead of

solving

. His reads support being scum.

[Ranger]

I only placed 3 votes that day, all 3 were on scum.

Sorry to disappoint.

I would like for you to expand on why my posts are +scum if I were on my main. I don't really think my posts are any different than they would have been as either town or scum on any account except for volume.

Your posts here are free of memes. On PenuinPower your posts are filled with memes (especially when town). A 1:1 translation would suggest scum, because the nature of content from you is too serious. Benefit of the doubt = assuming not a 1:1 translation and the +town content being +town, despite its seriousness.

redFF had a very similar reaction to me so he can be lean town for now.

Bad take.
Your thoughts have nuance. You're demonstrably thinking about the situation.

redFF's post lacked that. It was flat.

[Ranger]

This post must have taken you a long time.

About 5 minutes I think. Post tags are a lifesaver.

{Gimli}
{Sail}
{Detective Penguin, Save The Dragons, Lady Lambdadelta}
{Cephrir, Korina}
{Radical Rat}
{Ethel}
{Umlaut}
{furtiveglance}
{redFF}

(This is LLD down for clarity.)

This is where I'm at right now.

[Ranger]

{Gimli}
{Sail}
{Detective Penguin, Save The Dragons, Lady Lambdadelta}
{Cephrir, Korina}
{Radical Rat}
{Ethel}
{Umlaut}
{furtiveglance, redFF}


200 (furtive) + 202 (Umlaut) both +scum imo.

[Ranger]

I applaud Umlaut's posting regardless of alignment, but 205 is +scum by gut.

Scum:

redFF, Ranger

This is also a terrible take for obvious reasons.

[Ranger]

Ranger made a whole post about me going down a slot in their reads list based on literal nothing

About that.
'based on literal nothing' = I actually gave it thought. It means instead of an event triggering the shift, my own mind did. Shocker, I know.

People should do what they need to do today to gather their own reads but Ranger needs to die today.

Well I'm voting myself already; I can't exactly speed up my own demise faster than that, now, can I?

Why in the world do you applaud my posting? It's just, like, normal read-forming stuff, it's not great literature or dazzlingly brilliant rhetoric. The only reason you would applaud it is because you agree with it or think it's good towntelling, and you don't do either of those things.

It's good "towntelling" in that it looks town. Regardless of your alignment your posts are +town. Applause-worthy.

I still think it scum by gut. 211 feels scum by gut, too.
212 I'm less sure of though. On the one hand it looks performative. On the other, it's not like I'm going to live, so adding fuel to the flame of my mislim doesn't generate towncred.

it's not a bad take by definition.

Not a bad take by definition, sure.

Still is a bad take.

As a reminder:
I act N1.

My current reads:
{Gimli}
{Sail}
{Detective Penguin, Save The Dragons, Lady Lambdadelta}
{Cephrir, Korina}
{Radical Rat}
{Ethel}
{Umlaut}
{furtiveglance, redFF}

Gimli hasn't been explained but he's tryharding with original thought, good analysis, reasonable posting, and has reads I vibe with. Tone-wise is good. Plus I liked Gimli's intro.

Spoiler: Sail townread

Sails's cheeky wrong call of first felt +town as an rvs opener.

VOTE: Gimli

Thinking about it, I feel this is +town for Sail. Hopping off the Ranger wagon onto Gimli I don't think is scum there.

redFF had a very similar reaction to me so he can be lean town for now.

Your thoughts have nuance. You're demonstrably thinking about the situation.

Spoiler: Detective Penguin townread

penguin seems intense this game which is good.

I agree with this.
To explain the Penguin read, if it were PenguinPower on his main I'd be inclined to think his posts were +scum--counterintuitively, because they look +town. However, Detective Penguin isn't on the PenguinPower account. If the meta isn't 1:1, then Detective Penuin's posts looking +town could be exactly what they look like; +town. So, tentatively, trusting Detective Penguin's meta isn't identical to PenguinPower, +town posts get a townread.

I would like for you to expand on why my posts are +scum if I were on my main. I don't really think my posts are any different than they would have been as either town or scum on any account except for volume.

Your posts here are free of memes. On PenuinPower your posts are filled with memes (especially when town). A 1:1 translation would suggest scum, because the nature of content from you is too serious. Benefit of the doubt = assuming not a 1:1 translation and the +town content being +town, despite its seriousness.

Spoiler: Lady Lambdadelta overall townread

I don't see LLD opening this way as scum

(Small chance LLD’s actually scum, since a town-LLD I'd expect to be self-aware her hard-pushing p1 warps the game, but I still think town's more likely.)

(She herself says to BoP her when I flip town, but LLD's scumplay's strong enough to convince people not to BoP her.)

LLD is a tentative townread cause she is deathtunneling a slot since very early and I don't see wolves doing that enough.

I agree with this

I liked LLD's casual vibes in 18/20.

Spoiler: furtiveglance scumread

Ethel same, me every game

Thinking about it, I don't think furtiveglance is scum with Ethel, but looking at 82/83, I don't think both are town; I think one of these two is scum.

I've since concluded it's furtiveglance; all of his posts have vibed as +scum to me.
Even from furtive's first post, his vibes have been off.
200 was terrible.
I agreed with Gimli's reasons for the scumread. 182 was spot-on.

Spoiler: redFF scumread

It’s obvious redFF is scum piggybacking off LLD's erroneous scumread
redFF is obvscum tho, cruising off an effectively free D1.

Is it obvious? Im not so sure...

Well you've given zero thoughts on any players.

If you're not scum you're sure doing a good job of being +scum.

alright, since you say i'm confusing you with someone else: can you explain why redff is scum?

Explain? Yes. Coherently to your standards? Probably not. :P

17 was a stiff opener.
71 skips all the content prior to make a post lacking it.
73 was the fifth vote on me. Sail voted elsewhere, so it was only L-3, but it was reasonless joining the only wagon in the game--on a player I happen to know is town. If my suspicion LLD's town is correct, this action is extra-suspect because it's hiding behind a town player's push to vote town.
113 provides the justification, but continues to give no reads.
114 is the very thing LLD is accusing me of--being overdefensive.
127 is deliberately doing nothing.

redFF is blatantly coasting. That's not a guarantee of being scum. It's enough to warrant being my main scumread.

redFF had a very similar reaction to me so he can be lean town for now.

Bad take.
Your thoughts have nuance. You're demonstrably thinking about the situation.

redFF's post lacked that. It was flat.

Rest of reads less important to remember.

[Ranger]

the tiers... they're

multiplying

My reads are fluid. Anything,

anything

can change them. Literally anything. Lack of posting. One post, by a different person. One post, by the person in question. Me talking through my reads. Me evaluating away from the keyboard.

The number of tiers grow and shrink as needed.

Speaking of,

{Gimli}
{Sail}
{Cephrir}
{Detective Penguin, Save The Dragons, Lady Lambdadelta}
{Korina}
{Radical Rat}
{Ethel}
{Umlaut}
{furtiveglance, redFF}

Have a last-minute townread increase. I vibe with 213/214.

Rest of 215 applies still.

[Ranger]

Ranger, what is your stance on lying about your role as mafia? I ask because the phrasing "I act N1" does not strictly indicate alignment.

I literally created an entire fakeclaim without mod help (we had no pre-made claims) in my last scumgame.

I've been lying in scumgames since my very first one. Scum lie. It’s their job to. Telling the truth is against their win condition.

[Ranger]

{Gimli, Cephrir}
{Sail}
{Detective Penguin, Save The Dragons}
{Korina}
{Radical Rat, Lady Lambdadelta}
{Ethel}
{Umlaut}
{furtiveglance, redFF}


I don’t think Cephrir comes up with 232 as scum. I'm already dead; sorting out the technicalities of my claim is effort he needn't put in. The thought process of spotting a potential abuse of exact wording tracks with him developing genuine thoughts, showing critical thinking and targeted solving.

LLD's move downwards is simply further doubts about her approach being town. I had a thought last night which made me doubt her towniness. Her posts have a lot of bravado to them. She isn’t engaging with most of the game. She isn’t reevaluating. Her reasoning feels set to the read, because she genuinely

is

just making stuff up about me. Call it bias, but I happen to know her callouts are entirely wrong on every level. Her stance on me feels divorced from reality, not just because of my alignment, but because of the description of my play.

She already justified being wrong about me by making a self-evidently empty promise of being BoP'd. We all know after my townflip, LLD won’t

actually

volunteer as tribute to be eliminated. So her offer wasn't genuine.

Does this make her scum?

Idk honestly.

It gives me enough hesitancy to place her at null tho.

[Ranger]

"Blatantly coasting" is town redFF

Thinking about it, this is sadly plausible. It’s not enough to reverse my read, but redFF isn’t my strongest scumread rn.

That'd be Umlaut.

I find the level of read progression, reevaluation, thought process, and reads themselves to all be lackluster. It’s been years since we played together, but I'm

fairly

sure he's a much better town player than his play this game indicates. He looks like he's faking his towngame, doing the necessary motions, but not putting in depth of thought.

[Ranger]

{Gimli, Cephrir}
{Sail}
{Detective Penguin, Save The Dragons}
{Korina}
{Ethel}
{Radical Rat, Lady Lambdadelta}
{redFF}
{furtiveglance}
{Umlaut}

Current thoughts.

[Ranger]

You should probably claim. You're dying today either way.

For someone claiming they're reading the game, you're apparently quite bad at it. :P

I repeatedly have already claimed.

I act N1.
I've no need to specify role because my role will flip. It’s the night which won’t. Contrary to your claims I'm trying to save myself, I've made it quite clear I know I'm dead today. Why do I need to claim my role? It'll flip when I do, minus the night. I've stated the night; N1. So between my statement and my flip, all the info's already there.

[Ranger]

Hey, so what bumped Ethel up this list?

I realized I had her too low accidentally the first time, and corrected it the second.

Tbh I haven’t given her placement the proper thought it warrants. Null might be better. I don’t have a scumread there currently; the prior list having her south of null was thus done erroneously. I don’t know what my read is

precisely

, it needs more thought.

She is definitely not to be lumped in with the likes of Umlaut, furtiveglance, or redFF tho.

[Ranger]

I mean come on she writes "contrary to your claims I'm trying to save myself" and I process that as a full sentence lmfao

Punctuation is important. The location of commas is meaningful. :P

[Ranger]

You realized you had her too low. Okay, so what made you overlook her and what posts of hers made you put her above Null?

She has no posts containing real content. I initially scumread that. At some point, likely when others engaged her (including a comment of, "she's a treasure, I don’t want to eliminate her"), I changed my mind. I'm not sure what to, yet. I need to give that thought. All I know is, she doesn’t belong among actual scumreads I have tangible reasons for.

[Ranger]

and it's specifically for reading you, so why share it now?

"specifically for reading you (Ranger)", you said.

I don't want to play House of the Dragon 2.0 where I tell everyone Mastina is scum and then Mastina lives for days for 0 good reasons and we nearly lose because of it.

It's the same thing that pinged me in HotD. If you can put it together, congrats. If you can't, I'm not going to be to one to arm my enemies against me.

Uh-huh.

Surrrrrrrre

it is.

"Ranger doesn’t know what she’s talking about", you said.
When I said you were confusing me with someone else.
When I said you of all people should know better than to treat me identically to someone who I am not.

You said you weren’t, that this was for me, not her.

Sureeeeee you were.

Why, there’s no POSSIBLE correlation between you mentioning a game I wasn’t in, and your read on me this game.

They're OBVIOUSLY separated.

It couldn’t POSSIBLY be you disrespecting my independence and/or identity. Why, they’re clearly unrelated!!!




...I think my anger should be apparent.

You are despicable.

I told you we are separate.
You lied when you said it was for me, not for her.
If you were telling the truth, you wouldn't need to bring up a game I wasn’t in.
Your bringing it up is a confession of having lied about treating me separately.

Shame on you.

[Ranger]

You are despicable.

Quickly, need to apologize for this.
I grew up on Looney Tunes. I was channeling Daffy Duck's signature line. However, I realized after how it'd not be clear. In site culture, it'd appear to be attacking the character of the individual. That is unacceptable. Sorry about that. I promise it was unintended. Still, I'll need to do better.

I've reason to be furious. I thought I was careful to not cross a line in my anger, but I missed this detail and how it wasn’t clear. It is my bad. I messed up, and I am sorry.

Will be around later.

[Ranger]

Ranger has the same fucking tell, I saw it, I'm applying it, it's not fucking fair that I get lambasted like this.

About that.

I'm town, so clearly whatever the tell is? Doesn't apply to me. I've the right to be furious you're applying a tell from someone else (who I've been

very

insistent in not comparing to me), and the tell is

wrong

because I am not them (meaning my insistence to not be compared to them was

justified

because comparing me to them

resulted in a wrong read

).

I'd love to say more but I cannot. (This much should be okay, at least I hope.)

I realize there's plenty more to talk about.

But you will understand my anger when I flip town. And you

cannot

tell me it's unjustified when I am town, you said I was scum by a tell not even designed for me, and you pushed my mislim through using it.

There are more reasons you have used than just the tell.
Those reasons are disingenuous because they were fueled by the tell. (This is something I could prove easily if I cared to. To demonstrate this statement's not hot air, example: regardless of what I claimed you'd have pushed me. Cop? I want to live through N1. Doc? I don't want to claim a result D2. I didn't claim which role so your take was to call me scum for it. Whichever option I did, you would call it scum, because the tell is the basis of the read, not the content I've given. Don't pretend I'm wrong on that, you

know

whatever I claimed, you'd have called a scumclaim.)

Nothing you say will change I'm town.
Nothing you say will change you've specified you're using a tell for me. (You've repeatedly said you are.)
Nothing you say will change that tell being wrong. (See point #1.)
Nothing you say will change that tell having been developed for someone other than me. (I wasn't playing, ergo, it couldn't be developed for me.)
Nothing you say will change your push having been disingenuous because of your reasons being fueled by the tell. (You're lying if you say your secondary reasons didn't flow from the primary one. Maybe deliberately, maybe to yourself. Regardless of whether you know it's tunnelvisioning or you genuinely have the blindness to not see the confirmation bias, it's still true.)

These are all facts.

They are demonstrable. I'm reasonably certain this statement's within the bounds of rules for both site and game.

I was confused by the wrong read. I understand most wrong reads, and they're usually nothing which bothers me. It's a game.
I've strong reasons to be angry at

this

wrong read.

[Ranger]

(Upside; yes, I'm back to thinking LLD's town.)

[Ranger]

Can you please unvote yourself, Ranger?

I see no reason to.

Every voter on me will have accountability for it. Especially L-1/hammer.

There's a great deal going on. My vote on myself keeps my wagon strong, meaning extra accountability for positions.

[Ranger]

I think Korina and Umlaut are town so far, how's that?

For the record, I believe a town-furtive would be more passionate here. He's muted here. Lacks passion, lacks fire. Flat reads, lacking in his normal personality. He's stating reads (not great ones), and not demonstrating followthrough to pursue them.

{Gimli, Cephrir, Lady Lambdadelta}
{Detective Penguin}
{Sail}
{Save The Dragons}
{Korina}
{Ethel}
{Radical Rat}
{redFF}
{furtiveglance, Umlaut}

(tentative list, needs updating on Sail - Ethel)

[Ranger]

Also, the "pushing sideways" of offering reads on Korina and me when we are not really the topic of discussion seems to come from a more town place to me

Disagreed. That's exactly what makes it scum.

furtive's not focusing on getting a

scumread

voted. He's focused more on town, when there is a notable debate. Previously, a town-furtive has demonstrated actively being involved in the debate, either forming a definitive stance on it or trying to defuse it by placing attention on a scumread.

He has not.

[Ranger]

I think I townlean korina

Can you elaborate?

I'm not satisfied with my Korina read. I

share

it

currently

(townlean), but I'd love your perspective.

[Ranger]

It's precisely what you'd do in this scenario.

Fun fact I actually have games demonstrating precisely what I'd do. (As a hint, it wasn't posting a storm. That'd be gamethrowing. The more posts scum make the more info they leave which can catch their scumbuddies.)

I get you like to be obtuse and then claim how good your logic is by comparison to everyone elses (when it's never good, but I digress)

Do I have this trait?

If so it certainly needs to change.

It sounds like someone else though. (This is a common theme it seems.)

As far as I know

, I've been open about my logic just being mine, not better than anyone else's.

If I am mistaken (and it certainly is possible I am), I'll work on that.

So then why is she above Null?

Gut? Vibes? It felt right at the time.

Still does.

nor am I super interested in her atm

Why were you not interested in me then, STD?

[Ranger]

aren't you kind of admitting here that this isn't as ironclad as you're making it out to be?

She is!
There's a reason for that. :P

It's just anti spew Ceph.

Having the fourth-most posts in the game and constantly giving reads and backing them up with reason at every stage sure is a funny method of antispew. Not exactly my cup of tea though.

it frightens me to agree with you

Clarify; is it the read (Umlaut scum), or the person making it (me), which frightens you to agree with?

Sail's 295 isn't great, but I like 293+294; townread there holds.

{Gimli, Cephrir, Lady Lambdadelta}
{Detective Penguin, Sail}
{Save The Dragons}
{Korina}
{Ethel}
{Radical Rat}
{redFF}
{furtiveglance, Umlaut}

[Ranger]

VOTE: furtive
that's probably e-1 idrc I just want this day over

Pretty sure it is.

I'm not ready for the day end.

I realize I have an easy out here. E-1, it's not on me, I'm not voting the wagon.

I'm not taking it because--shocker--I'm town and there's something everyone seems to have overlooked.

There's a slot in this game with zero posts.

Radical Rat hasn't posted once.

Even if everyone else had completely finished their solving for the day.

They've not had a chance to contribute theirs.

Regardless of town or scum, RR should be given the chance to contribute.

[Ranger]

I don't really have much empathy for an undefined v/la at game join.

This would be fine if we were eliminating the slot.

We're not.

Since Radical Rat is not the slot at e-1, eliminating a slot before Radical Rat contributes means RR is given no chance to spew themselves scum (if scum) and has an entire night phase to come up with a perfect D2 entrance,
Has no chance to form an opinion on a night action (if town with an N1 action),
Has no chance to contribute at all (if town and nightkilled; admittedly not likely),
Etc.

I'd prefer to wait, even if waiting seals my own death. (All the sooner to be vindicative.)

[Ranger]

308/309 I'm mostly ambivalent, but loosely they actually look +scum to me for Korina.

314/315 are also largely ambivalent, but loosely gut-town to me.


320/321/323 vibe harder as town tho.
Korina was busy, mobile, unable to contribute much. Those contributions from them ring +town with the Gimli interaction.

[Ranger]

All I wanted to do was survive to get my check done and now I can't even do that

I'd buy this as possible if, after your claim, your activity and content visibly improved.
While inadvisable, it's an

acceptable

tactic to deliberately underperform in order to deliver a result, despite the underperformance matching scumplay.

Having claimed, there's no reason to keep the underperformance up.

And yet your content is identical post-claim compared to pre-claim, suggesting the underperformance prior to the claim was not due to role.

In short: furtiveglance remains scum.

[Ranger]

All I wanted to do was survive to get my check done and now I can't even do that

I'd buy this as possible if, after your claim, your activity and content visibly improved.
While inadvisable, it's an

acceptable

tactic to deliberately underperform in order to deliver a result, despite the underperformance matching scumplay.

Having claimed, there's no reason to keep the underperformance up.

And yet your content is identical post-claim compared to pre-claim, suggesting the underperformance prior to the claim was not due to role.

In short: furtiveglance remains scum.

To be clear:
furtiveglance was not playing his town meta at all. His content was +scum. Muted, lacking depth, lacking conviction, lacking passion, lacking strength, lacking push. He was just

there

. Giving thoughts, but not backing them with his normal level of strength. That, aside from his takes being bad.

Some players prescribe to the philosophy of deliberately being under the radar until they use their role. I'm not sure if furtiveglance is among them, but his claim makes it at least

plausible

he'd be using that strategy in

theory

.

Plausible, but demonstrably not true in

reality

.

Since furtiveglance's posts remained about the same after (I'd argue his posts actually got

worse

), the far more likely explanation:
furtiveglance is just scum, coasting by on the claim he needed to make to survive.

[Ranger]

Small point of clarity.

I was midway through catching up last time I was here, doing it properly. On page 13/17. I had to dip out due to other obligations.

I've still got content to respond to from there, but it is second to the more recent content.

{Gimli, Cephrir, Lady Lambdadelta}
{Detective Penguin, Sail}
{Save The Dragons}
{Korina}
{Ethel}
{Radical Rat}
{redFF}
{Umlaut}
{furtiveglance}

This still needs updating but full disclosure, I am multitasking right now. I was hoping to finish catching up before other responsibilities but they've started already. I may not give things the proper thought they deserve and may dip out like I did yesterday before I finish.

[Ranger]

no we're not doing the claimed N1 cop today

Correct, I'm getting to that. Give me a bit.

[Ranger]

I want to do my stuff but I'm obviously gonna die now

This is what I mean by a scum mindset.

furtive as town has extra reason to be as town as possible today. If he were town, he'd expect to die. Since he'd expect to die, today would be the

only

day he'd get to contribute. He'd want to step up his contributions.

He's done the opposite.

[Ranger]

Ranger claimed n1 too, and like... I feel like everyone getting ran up today will just claim n1.

Believe me, the inconvenience of acting N1 is not lost on me. Sadly, it's what I was given, so I can't lie.

Ranger and my read?

To be fair: your read is wrong.

I said earlier today that if Ranger claimed N1 Cop I would let them live.

Quite certain you never said that. Equally certain, you'd have pushed me if I did claim N1 cop.

I think Ranger 100% claimed n1 to buy time

You apparently lack reading comprehension, didn't bother to read, or read and understood it and are being disingenuous now.

The motivation for my claim was laid out at the time I made it, as explicitly as possible.
LLD is pushing me as scum.
LLD gets her way--and if she doesn't get her way, the game is worse for the wear for it.
Convincing LLD is impossible.
Arguing with LLD is a waste of time.
Resisting LLD is a waste of time.

Everyone has, repeatedly, said "the Ranger vs. LLD fight is distracting".
This, despite how

LLD has noted my refusal to engage her

.
There's no "Ranger vs. LLD" fight because I specifically made the choice to

avoid entering that fight

.
I am

aware

a Ranger-LLD fight would be bad for the health of the gamestate.

I am

aware

fighting would be a distraction, creating noise.

I've gone out of my way to

avoid

doing so, so that my content is clear and visible after I've flipped.

I stated my goal, and my intentions, immediately:
I intend to die.
I intend to end the fight before there is one by my death.
I intend to remove the distraction of the LLD-Ranger "debate".
I intend to leave reads so they can be followed through on.

And per the setup, my

role

will flip (Cop/Doc), but my

night

will not.
So I intend to leave the night I act, so that info in tandem with the flip gives all the info available.

I stated this from the getgo.
It was quite unambiguous.

Stating my claim was to survive is disingenuous. I'm perfectly capable of claiming a role as scum. I see no reason to as town when my plan is to die.

[Ranger]

Everyone has, repeatedly, said "the Ranger vs. LLD fight is distracting".
This, despite how

LLD has noted my refusal to engage her

.
There's no "Ranger vs. LLD" fight because I specifically made the choice to

avoid entering that fight

. I am

aware

a Ranger-LLD fight would be bad for the health of the gamestate. I've gone out of my way to

avoid

doing so, so that my content is clear and visible after I've flipped.

I feel it important to demonstrate this point because I actually feel those using "LLD vs. Ranger" as an excuse are +scum.

To reiterate,

Ranger stopped engaging with any of my rebutals or points ages ago.

LLD herself stated I wasn't engaging her rebuttals/points. LLD herself stated I was avoiding debate.

Yet despite my efforts to avoid a pointless debate with LLD, we get people saying this:

LLD tunnel on Ranger sort of took over the day, and I found that interaction hard to read

There’s actually nothing of note for me to read, unless you want me to dredge through the garbage of LLD v Ranger

There are likely more, but these are in the area and demonstrate my point:
People are using an "LLD-Ranger debate" to justify having had no interest in the game, having no investment in the game, having not given reads, etc.

When said debate is,

mostly

, nonexistent at least on my end.

I find their justification for lackluster contributions underwhelming.

[Ranger]

Oh but if we're not doing Ranger today, if I die tonight, you fucking merc Ranger savvy?

I assure you the only way you die is after getting your Ranger mislim through since scum see it as an asset and excuse to be lazy.

you know that's a bad townie lol

While I'm not convinced, I'm actually inclined to agree.

{Lady Lambdadelta}
{Gimli, Cephrir, Save the Dragons}
{Detective Penguin}
{Ethel, redFF, Enchant}
{Radical Rat, Umlaut}
{Umlaut}
{furtiveglance}

I realize this looks like demoting Gimli/Cephrir but they're about equal, it's an increase in LLD. StD-Ceph-LLD's friend exchange probably shouldn't make me townread them, but it does.

Penguin might deserve higher, idk for sure, still need to give it thought.

[Ranger]

When you get here, please explain why you thought this was a good idea

Night of action doesn't show on flip. I needed to claim it for when I die. I plan to die, so there was a need to claim it.

Game's just started, and you decide it's just not worth arguing with LLD so you're gonna give up and die?

Yes?
Fighting LLD would bog the thread down. It'd make it harder for everyone to form reads, and easier for scum to blend in. The most pro-town solution is to immediately remove myself from the equation, by giving reads and refusing to fight the elimination. Give the info which wouldn't flip, help contribute to the flip, and contribute reads.

I don't believe Ranger seriously thinks her sitting around waiting to die is actually helpful for anyone, and I definitely don't believe she thinks self-voting is going to do her any favors as Town.

Make no mistake; I'd much prefer to live if not for LLD's push. Her push makes my death a necessity. It'd be

better

if I was read by virtue of my contributions. LLD makes that impossible. So the

best

option is my death to immediately return the game to a healthier state.

But in this case we off Ranger tomorrow regardless of her claim.

If it's all the same to you, I'd prefer we waste only one day on my mislim rather than two.

i can't believe i'm spouting mech in a game so devoid of mech but ranger is a mechanically bad vote because of our current situation

if ranger is a n1 doc, she protects furtive and gets killed because scum think she could be a n1 cop. if ranger is a n1 cop, she dies because scum think she could be a n1 cop. if ranger is mafia, we can lim her tomorrow. scum aren't going to leave a potential n1 cop alive.

I've a better idea: we flip me today and when furtiveglance inevitably doesn't die overnight, you let him claim and flip him D2.

{Lady Lambdadelta}
{Gimli, Cephrir, Save the Dragons}
{Detective Penguin}
{Enchant}
{Ethel, redFF}
{Radical Rat, KawaiiKame, Umlaut}
{furtiveglance}

I've liked Enchant's posting so far.

I don't think Radical Rat's giving genuine reads. Their takes are surface-level. 674 for instance.

KawaiiKame's posts are lackluster so far. I'd expect more from Kawaii here.

Umlaut remains underwhelming. His more recent content is better, but remains lackluster.

[Ranger]

OH WOW IT'S ALMOST LIKE I DID SAY THAT

Not to my eyes.
"if you're genuinely a N1 Cop then it's worth letting you cook that night action for one night and seeing if Mafia shoot you in your face or not" != "if Ranger claimed N1 Cop I would let them live".
The two are similar. Not identical. You never stated intent to let me live. You stated it'd be worth letting me live. Not that you would. I was quite correct to say you didn't say you

would

let me live, because you didn't; you said it'd be

worth

letting me live.

If the two are identical to you, so be it. I've no reason to doubt you when you say you believe they were. They aren't identical to people who look at exact wording as I do.

[Ranger]

nor do you seem to consider your elimination the best outcome anymore. In fact it looks like you dropped that quite quickly.

Beg your pardon but I believe I'm still voting myself and stated explicitly it's best to kill me today.

As has always been the case, giving reads takes priority.

the arrogant and self righteous parts though, that's just me being livid with having to deal with this passive aggressive self important superiority nonsense every time i come in this thread

Well about that. I've the right to some arrogance since I'm not the one campaigning for the elimination of a slot off of a tell about to be proven wrong by that slot flipping town. I'm the one who knows the tell is wrong and about to flip town. Some smugness is apt. :P

snipe at people with your passive aggressive comments. People who AREN'T EVEN IN THE GAME ANYMORE AND CAN'T DEFEND THEMSELVES YOU COWARD.

I'm reasonably certain I've kept my commentary relevant. Korina's reading of my vote was self-evidently not reflective of what was present at the time. There are multiple possible explanations for this. One of those explanations is Korina being scum.

Korina's alignment doesn't change with them being out of the game. Their take was bad, in a way I'm judging. It'd be easier to judge had Korina not left, as Korina would be able to engage. Their being out of the game doesn't mean I shouldn't bring up a concern about their alignment.

[Ranger]

Literally no one is trying to kill you today anymore.

I count as someone.
I don't want to deal with you pushing me every day phase.

It's my preference to die today because even if you're pushing elsewhere--your read on me remains. You're scumreading me. You want me dead. You can choose to not pursue me today. You still want to pursue me eventually. D2. D3. Until I die.

Easier to remove the distraction D1 than have it in the game until I die later.

[Ranger]

But to take your ball and go home because of an early scumread on the literal second page of the game... if you're not scum, it's at the very least incredibly selfish and anti-Town behavior.

If it were any other player this would be sensible.

It's LLD.

Not wanting to deal with her game-long tunnel on me is +town for everyone.

Beg your pardon but I believe I'm still voting myself and stated explicitly it's best to kill me today.

mechanically you are wrong.

The mechanics argument is nonsense.

Delaying flips by a day phase off of mech is ridiculous.

What would you do if both furtive and myself live?

Flip furtive D2, me D3?

We

lose

eliminations from that.
And meanwhile have LLD calling me scum the entire time.

[Ranger]

{Lady Lambdadelta}
{Gimli, Cephrir, Save the Dragons, Detective Penguin}
{Enchant}
{Ethel, redFF}
{Radical Rat, Umlaut}
{furtiveglance}
{KawaiiKame}

Actually think this better.
Almost kept furtive lower, but I'm giving minor benefit of the doubt to furtive's underperformance being due to business. I still find him suspect tho.

[Ranger]

Nights of action are chosen independently for each PR so it doesn't give us even partial information about anyone else.

Disagreed. The more claims for a night, the less likely all are to be town. Providing the information on which night I act informs the odds on other slots.

Clearly she's willing to go elsewhere and not just blindly tunnel you into oblivion

Willing to go elsewhere, yes.
Will drop the read, no. And every day she holds it is more dangerous than the last. What happens if LLD and I both live to lylo? If LLD was willing to go elsewhere every day prior?

Vote Count 1-9

Ranger

(5)

:

Ranger - KawaiiKame - Radical Rat - redFF - Umlaut

KawaiiKame

(1)

:

Detective Penguin

Gimli

(1)

:

Lady Lambdadelta

redFF

(5)

:

Save The Dragons - furtiveglance - Ethel - Gimli - Enchant

Enchant

(1)

:

Cephrir

For those fond of VCA this should be gold for you.

She apparently has no interest in using her action whatsoever

You're being disingenuous.

I've already stated I'd have preferred to live if not for LLD's push on me.

{Lady Lambdadelta}
{Gimli, Cephrir, Save the Dragons, Detective Penguin}
{Enchant}
{Ethel, redFF}
{furtiveglance}
{Umlaut}
{Radical Rat}
{KawaiiKame}

[Ranger]

You saying D1 is better is just for you to justify not really playing the game.

I've done plenty to play the game. I continue to give thoughts on other players, including a continuously-updated readslists.

Perhaps you'd care to comment on literally any of it?

You seem awfully focused on my lack of survivalism rather than any other aspect of my content.

Nothing about her play today is pro-town.

This also applies to you.

Would you say none of my reads are pro-town?
None of my reasons given for my reads are pro-town?

You seem focused on the one thing, rather than addressing literally anything else I've given.

Perhaps there's a reason you're avoiding doing so?

[Ranger]

Is her claim one of the major reasons she hasn't?

Since you brought it up: as a matter of fact, my claim is not a contributing factor to my lack of elimination. To the contrary, it is the basis of two votes at minimum.

The bulk of the defense towards me has come from those reading my play. The bulk of the votes on me have come from insisting my claim/self-vote was scum.

Perhaps there's a reason you want to sell the narrative of it being my claim alone saving me?

Had she just claimed N1, but otherwise attempted to play the game, I wouldn't be on her.

Funny story that.

I've an entire iso demonstrating me not just attempting, but succeeding at playing the game. These points are relatively easy to find as they make up the majority of my content.

{Lady Lambdadelta}
{Gimli, Cephrir, Save the Dragons, Detective Penguin}
{Enchant}
{Ethel, redFF}
{furtiveglance}
{KawaiiKame}
{Umlaut}
{Radical Rat}

[Ranger]

You have said, repeatedly, that you want to be the elimination today. Your vote is in service of getting yourself eliminated, and has been the entire game.

It's almost like there's

two

tools of a town, not one.

My voice serves me plenty.

My play is also more than readslists. I've given full explanations for reads as well. You happen to be refusing engagement on any of my reads and their reasons.

I posit the reason why is because it's convenient for you to push your narrative of me not trying and it's convenient for you to not engage me on my reads.

[Ranger]

Since there's a hammer I'll just say I'm gonna cop Enchant.

I'd prefer to have had more time to catch up, but I'm still doing rl things for the next couple hours so need to put this out before the thread lock.

[Ranger]

Since there's a hammer I'll just say I'm gonna cop Enchant.

I lied. :P

I protected furtiveglance last night.

[Ranger]

Curious that neither Ranger nor furtive were killed...

Curious indeed. The kill suggests it was someone not believing my claim, since if scum believed my claim, they

should

have killed one of {furtiveglance, Ranger, Enchant} (to avoid double invest results).

I've a prime suspect:

VOTE: Radical Rat

[Ranger]

VOTE: furtiveglanceRanger would have been the best option to check

daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn

I mean she's been incredibly polarizing and has expressed the position that the game won't progress healthily without her being resolved.

A cop check is an opportunity to resolve her without spending a day eliminating her, so that's what I'd have done.

Does this TMI town!Ranger?

No, but 1063 should.

VOTE: furtiveglance

I agree it comes down to which is the townier slot. That’s Cephrir.

I believe furtiveglance has Perspective slipped, revealing himself to be scum.
I should clarify the Perspective slip is far from the only reason. It is simply the reason I can most immediately comment on from my phone.

[Ranger]

Ranger you know that if Furtive is scum you are the most likely buddy yes?

Oh I'm aware.
furtive was at L-1.
I had the chance to hammer furtive.
I didn't.

I'm quite cognizant of how that appears. (My reasoning was more, despite my scumread on furtiveglance, had he flipped town then we would be dealing with you today. I didn't

know

he'd flip scum; I know it looks like I deliberately avoided flipping scum.)

Still, respectfully: your opinion means nothing. :P

(To be more apt, your read and view won't change my alignment; I don't care what your wrong view of me is.)

Your negative view of me won't influence my scumhunting. We have a hard 1v1. I'm obligated to give feedback. My feedback is furtiveglance is by far the scummier of the two. Given there's a need to decide the 1v1, I am required to take a side. You can mislim me D3, nothing I do or say today will change that because I made the mistake of not hammering furtive back then and I will need to deal with the consequences of the mistake tomorrow. But D3 is tomorrow, not today; today the focus is on {furtiveglance, Cephrir}, and so my contribution is in calling furtive the scum of the two.

like 1063 doesn't TMI you town at all. Infact it reads like something paraphrased from you

Oh it does.

Ranger's getting voted inevitably let's be honest. That would have been a waste of a check

Voting me requires me to not be nightkilled. (As a reminder, this is after I claimed N1 cop on Enchant.) furtiveglance didn't rule me out because I wasn't going to be nightkilled; furtiveglance ruled me out because he knew I would be a free mislim. That betrays both a scum mindset from furtiveglance and reveals he knows I'm town.

furtiveglance as town would also be a cop, and thinking as a cop, furtive would know I could be cleared. His decision to not "waste" a check on me is a decision to not clear up the biggest distraction in the game. (We're going to go into

day three

and still have you tunneling me. When I wanted it resolved day one.) His viewpoint doesn't consider my claim as a cop, and the value in a potential chain-clear. It betrays his scumteam suspected I was a doctor, despite me having deliberately avoided giving any reveal to my role D1.

The perspective also lays out a lack of concern with being killed. If I were a cop as I had claimed, then furtiveglance would have been at risk of being killed N1. He didn't think about this at all.

(Speaking of my claim, that deserves a separate post.)

[Ranger]

Since there's a hammer I'll just say I'm gonna cop Enchant.

I lied. :P
I protected furtiveglance last night.

Curious that neither Ranger nor furtive were killed...

Curious indeed. The kill suggests it was someone not believing my claim, since if scum believed my claim, they

should

have killed one of {furtiveglance, Ranger, Enchant} (to avoid double invest results).

The motive behind the lie was my having attempted to think like scum:

(Note: this analysis is all under furtiveglance being assumed town unless specified otherwise, because part of this plan was specifically to test if furtiveglance was town.)
With me having been unclaimed, there were two possibilities: either I would be a town doctor on furtiveglance, or I would be a town cop on an unknown target. Scum would not want to kill furtiveglance in this scenario, because I would be on him if I were a doctor. Scum

could

kill me to remove the unknown, but that'd be inadvisable. Since furtiveglance didn't announce his target, scum could, and

would

, kill the towniest slot they could think of which keeping alive wouldn't be +scum. (I thought this would be Cephrir if LLD were scum, Gimli if LLD is town, so had I not protected furtiveglance I still would've guessed the protection wrong, my bad Penguin. He was top 3, but I didn't think he was THE nightkill.)

Since scum naturally are inclined to kill the towniest slot they can think of, and I would need to attempt a hero-save to stop this (potentially letting the cop die and lose a mini-follow-the-cop), this was suboptimal.
In short, the default scum kill would be {town player,}, and that's it. No other option.

By claiming cop on Enchant (I chose Enchant because cops ideally cop someone middle of the road, Enchant fit the bill, I didn't want a townier slot to be my claim, and I didn't want to prevent furtiveglance from getting a guilty on a scummier slot by claiming that slot as my own target), the math changed.

Now, scum may or may not have believed the claim but they were not dealing with a total unknown.
They had to ask if I was lying or if I was telling the truth.
If I were telling the truth, then if they targeted a town player (Penguin as it turns out), it could generate two cop results in one night, massively +town.
That would necessitate removing one of the three known factors (as furtive didn't claim a target). They couldn't guess furtiveglance's target, so they would need to either kill him and risk running into a doctor on him (regardless of me or an unclaimed doctor) or spare him and pray.
Separately, they would need to either kill me to stop my enchant result, kill Enchant to invalidate it, or leave both of us alive and risk a result on Enchant. As I would not be protected and as I was a known claim, they would need to run a risk/reward on the situation.

In theory, this changed the scum's nightkill options from "{town player,}", to instead be {furtiveglance, Ranger, Enchant}.

Since the kill was still {town player} (Penuin) instead of any of {furtiveglance, Ranger, Enchant}, that implies the scum did not believe I was a cop.

This is actually important, because it informs who is likely/unlikely to be scum.
{Ethel, Gimli, KawaiiKame, Enchant} would all be inclined to believe my claim if they were scum.
Enchant's exasperation revealed he believed my claim.
KawaiiKame, Gimli, and Ethel are all new enough to take a town player at their word when claiming a twilight action (as they'd have no reason to suspect town would lie).

{Cephrir, Lady Lambdadelta, Radical Rat, Umlaut, furtiveglance} would all be disinclined to believe my claim as scum.
(Idk which group StD belongs in.)

Generally, scum actions are made by at least 2/3, so at least 2/3 scum should be in the latter group.

Since Cephrir/furtive are a 1v1, that leaves a near-guaranteed second scum in the group. I believe LLD is town, making 1-2 of {Radical Rat, Umlaut} likely scum. (+STD if he's among those who would disbelieve.)

If furtiveglance is scum as I suspect, then furtiveglance would know any protective actions would be on him, leaving the scum free to target whoever they wanted. With them disbelieving my cop claim, they would kill whoever they wanted, not afraid of the outcome.

Loosely, I feel the results of the night indicate scum weren't trying to stop furtiveglance and definitely didn't try to stop me. The most likely conclusion is not fearing furtive and believing I was a doctor lying and I'd be on furtiveglance (I was).

[Ranger]

Side-note, 375 transparently looks like scum responding to a mounting wagon on their scumbuddy.

What's vc on furtive? Kind of like that wagon better, this one isn't doing anything.

I digress.

To my point,

VOTE: furtiveglance

VOTE: furtiveglance

VOTE: furtive

Vote Count 1-5

Ranger

(5)

:

Lady Lambdadelta - Ranger - redFF - Umlaut - Korina

furtiveglance

(3)

:

Gimli - Cephrir - Save The Dragons

VOTE: furtiveglance

VOTE: furtive

VOTE: furtive
L-1
Choo choo mother truckers !

Detective Penguin unvoted in 391, bringing it back down to L-2, but:

VOTE: furtive
that's probably e-1 idrc I just want this day over

These were the votes on furtiveglance.

Two proven town, and a third who furtiveglance is claiming a guilty on.

Do you believe all six votes were town? That'd leave two scum in {Lady Lambdadelta, KawaiiKame, Enchant, Ethel, Radical Rat}.

Possible

(KawaiiKame + RR for instance), but unlikely.

Do you believe two of the six votes were scum?

That'd be two scum in {Save the Dragons, Gimli, Umlaut}. (Technically Cephrir as well, but I don't buy the guilty on scumbuddy theory.) While

possible

, this seems quite unlikely.

Since the scumteam likely had 2-3 members who didn't believe my claim, with furtiveglance as scum we would need 1-2 scum in {LLD, RR, StD, Umlaut}.
We would need 1-2 scum in {LLD, KawaiiKame, Enchant, Ethel, RR}.
We would need 0-1 scum in {StD, Gimli, Umlaut}.

The common elements are {Umlaut/StD | RR, LLD}, divided up as shown.

If you believe LLD is town (I do), that strongly suggests a team of {furtiveglance, Radical Rat, Umlaut/StD}.

[Ranger]

Very town:

Lady Lambdadelta, Cephrir

Sorta town:

Ethel, Korina, Detective Penguin, Gimli

Nulltown:

Sail, Save The Dragons

Nullscum:

furtiveglance, Radical Rat

Scum:

redFF, Ranger

Furtive has had a couple of bad posts (83, 200) and really no good ones; Sail is the other way around, I like 162 and nothing stands out as bad. Red is just going with the flow in a way I don't like.

Upgrade furtive a tier for 222, because it's a relatively surprising but reasonable basis for a town read that I don't think would occur to someone who is just making stuff up (though if furtive is scum and Korina is town it's possible it's just a real reason, so not conclusive, just a good look)

Umlaut gives focus to me, to redFF, and upgrades furtiveglance, but very little on Radical Rat.


603 has Umlaut vote Korina, but as far as I can tell, Umlaut never addressed Korina between 207 and 603. What made Korina change from "sorta town" to scum? There was nothing.

VOTE: Radical Rat
I am random voting

Why? And why say you're doing it?

Why was Umlaut opposed to the Radical Rat vote from Enchant? According to Umlaut's readslist, RR was scum, yet this was more critical of Enchant than curious about RR. It reads as an RR defense more than anything else.

Umlaut's iso is quite favorable to both furtiveglance and Radical Rat.

[Ranger]

RR is scum piggybacking on your idea.

I believe this is true, but I believe it indicates RR is attempting distancing. Radical Rat's position on D1 suggested they believed furtiveglance was town rather strongly.

On D2, RR initially did not take a side, despite having killed redFF in part to save furtiveglance.

After LLD's arguments, RR went into suddenly going hard against furtive despite previously being neutral or even favorable towards furtive.

[Ranger]

It's certainly possible furtiveglance is scum with the Korina slot.
A main reason I'm doubting this is KawaiiKame's proven far more capable a scum player than what's been demonstrated this game. This is not the same KawaiiKame described as having been capable of solo-carrying the scumteam of Weird Dreams.

I've yet to delve deeper, will tackle that likely tomorrow.

[Ranger]

I have a greencheck on Ranger.

Enjoy LLD's vote tomorrow. :P

(As well as mine tbh.)

[Ranger]

I'm an N3 Cop. Me expressing a desire for one to corroborate Umlaut's result was me softing for the reveal tomorrow.

I find it mighty convenient my top two suspects have claimed cop, but today's not the day to discuss this. I'll give my thoughts tomorrow after the check.
VOTE: Cephrir

[Ranger]

Well now.
By my count that’s five dead investigators with two living ones, in a setup with a maximum of six.

If anyone else wants to claim investigator, it'll mean both {RR, Umlaut} are scum.

We don’t really need to wait for RR to claim a result, they know the setup, they know the math, so we already know that regardless of alignment they're going to claim a guilty.

The real question isn't Umlaut's alignment (RR will say scum regardless), but rather Radical Rat's.

[Ranger]

*two living ones claimed, obv

[Ranger]

To be clear, since there’s 1-2 scum in {Umlaut, RR} and a guarantee of AT LEAST one being scum, we probably eliminate Umlaut first regardless.

I'm not voting yet because discussion, etc.

[Ranger]

To be clear, since there’s 1-2 scum in {Umlaut, RR} and a guarantee of AT LEAST one being scum, we probably eliminate Umlaut first regardless.

I'm not voting yet because discussion, etc.

The reason for this: like furtiveglance before him, IF Umlaut was town (he's not), his elimination would be a two for one special: conftowning me, AND confscumming RR.

Since Umlaut isn’t town, eliminating Umlaut is eliminating scum, which brings us to five alive tomorrow, with only one scum.

So, way I figure it, today's a win-win with an Umlaut elimination.

[Ranger]

Ranger, how do you feel your reads have been in general this game?

Decently good.

I opposed the redFF elim and had him above null at day end, but had him scum most D1.

All three of our nightkills, I had above null, but none of them were ever pressured as scum so townreading them means little (and is usually detrimental).

I was coming around on furtive at D1's end, but when he got a guilty, I sided with Cephrir.

I have scumread both of Umlaut and RR the entirety of the game.
247, 255, 402, 410, 736, 752 (the bottom Umlaut is the correct one), 766, 789, 835, 873(calling both {Umlaut, RR} suspect for their takes on me), 874, 1157, 1160, 1161, 1396, 1430.

As

at minimum

one is almost assuredly scum (yes I know RR retracted, I'll get to that), I'm guaranteed being right on

at least

one scumread.

If {RR, Umlaut} are both scum, I'd rate my reads as A. Not S-tiered, but overall as good as could be.
If {RR, Umlaut} has only one scum and KawaiiKame is the third, I'd rate my reads as A-, maybe B+.
If the final scum is in {Lady Lambdadelta, Gimli, Save the Dragons}, then I had two scum above null the entirety of the game; about B-. Not terrible, not great.

Regardless, I'm content.

[Ranger]

I seriously cannot conceive of a universe where I claim Cop as scum knowing the setup is 6-4. I'm surprised enough that Rat did.

About that.

I actually was convinced this game was 4 cops to 6 doctors. The way most players played indicated to me they weren't cops, so I was convinced we were in 4:6.

Being convinced we were in 4:6 cop:doc actually was a part of my scumread on {Umlaut, RR} yesterday; I was convinced the dual cop claim was to drive the total up to 6 cops so we'd

believe

it was 6:4 cop:doc.

I was genuinely surprised to see a fifth cop flip, so the question becomes if we're in 5:5, or 6:4.

Your flip provides the answer.

[Ranger]

this is how things looked for scum last night:

My theory depends slightly on the alignment of {RR, Umlaut}, however, the basis is simply this:
I don't think the scum were aiming for cops with their nightkills.
Quite the opposite.

I think the scum were aiming their kills based on players who wouldn't be detrimental to remove.

I am LLD's tunnel target. Scum never shoot me.
Lady Lambdadelta is tunneling me. Scum don't mislim me without her, so they never shoot LLD.
You are LLD's secondary push. Scum don't want to remove you, because you make a convenient secondary mislim target.

{Umlaut, Radical Rat, KawaiiKame} are all suspects. Scum aren't going to kill the town in there.

Given this, the scum's kill pool was {Save the Dragons, Enchant}. If you want to float the theory of StD scum, that meant Enchant was the

only

possible kill. Otherwise, the scum had a 50/50.

I don't think they wanted to shoot a cop. In fact, I think they wanted to shoot a doctor. A cop kill confirms the setup has at least five cops, whereas a doctor kill would tell them nothing. I think the Enchant kill landing on a fifth cop was bad luck for the scum, and they fully intended to keep the number of cops ambiguous today.

On that note,

Alright so. I lied, I'm not a Cop, but I had a good reason to.

I've strong reason to believe this is RR trying to save themself.

If you assume the Enchant kill landing on a cop was accidental and scum intended to kill a doctor, RR's claim of cop yesterday makes sense. We'd

eventually

have seven cops in total, but unless the final cop claimed today, the scum would have completely obscured the number of cops in the setup. Even if the final cop claimed today, the scum would still have it somewhat obscured.

RR's cop claim yesterday had all the hallmarks of being intended as real.

The cop kill forcing an Umlaut-RR 1v1 meant they needed to pivot.

[Ranger]

I feel like missing that is +town, as is this whole flurry of posts

I agree.

{Lady Lambdadelta, Gimli} are both town here regardless.

{KawaiiKame, Save the Dragons} contains 0-1 scum.

{Umlaut, Radical Rat} contains 1-2 scum.

[Ranger]

it does greatly concern me that LLD hasn't been shot yet, despite being a universal townread up to this point.

Perhaps her strongest push being on town could have something to do with that.

Just a thought.

Well now.
By my count that’s five dead investigators with two living ones, in a setup with a maximum of six.

If anyone else wants to claim investigator, it'll mean both {RR, Umlaut} are scum.

We don’t really need to wait for RR to claim a result, they know the setup, they know the math, so we already know that regardless of alignment they're going to claim a guilty.

The real question isn't Umlaut's alignment (RR will say scum regardless), but rather Radical Rat's.

This might be TMI?
Why would I claim a guilty as either alignment?

As scum, bussing MIGHT be worth it with all the cops dead, sure, but not a guarantee, and as Town? You wouldn't know ahead of time whether my result was on you or Umlaut, so... what's up there?

You claimed you were investigating Umlaut.

We know the setup has either five cops or six cops. You claimed cop yesterday. You claimed you were investigating Umlaut.

Umlaut also claimed cop. So with Umlaut's claim, we allegedly have six cops.
With your cop claim, we allegedly had seven cops, in a setup where the maximum is 6.

I admit you retracting didn't cross my mind as a possibility. I took it for granted the only options were scum locked into a cop claim or genuine cop, and in either case, you were allegedly investigating Umlaut. In either case, you would thus have to claim a guilty, because it would be mechanically impossible for you to be a cop with an innocent on Umlaut. Ergo, as either a genuine cop (who would receive a guilty) or as scum locked into a cop claim targeting Umlaut, you would need to claim a guilty result on Umlaut.

I also said nothing about bussing. Your necessity of a guilty claim on Umlaut doesn't necessitate a bus. The {Umlaut, RR} 1v1 would be forced regardless of the alignment of Umlaut.

It's interesting you're stating Umlaut is scum here, given you have no info suggesting it if your claim is real.
With 5 cops flipped, and you retracting your cop claim, from your perspective if you were town, it should be possible for Umlaut to be a sixth real cop. And prior to today, you weren't suspicious of Umlaut; quite the opposite, you've townread Umlaut the entire game until today.

It would seem that if Umlaut is scum, I'm not the one who TMI'd.
It seems

you

know there's not six cops, and

you

know Umlaut is scum.

[Ranger]

It's interesting you're stating Umlaut is scum here, given you have no info suggesting it if your claim is real.
With 5 cops flipped, and you retracting your cop claim, from your perspective if you were town, it should be possible for Umlaut to be a sixth real cop. And prior to today, you weren't suspicious of Umlaut; quite the opposite, you've townread Umlaut the entire game until today.

It would seem that if Umlaut is scum, I'm not the one who TMI'd.
It seems

you

know there's not six cops, and

you

know Umlaut is scum.

Let me explain this: Radical Rat is treating the game like there is only five cops.
They explained their reason why, but their reason makes no sense:

Scum did NOT believe my claim, because if they did, either Umlaut or Ranger would be dead.

This is done with the knowledge of Enchant having flipped cop already. Enchant wasn't a flipped cop when the scum made their kill last night.

We know the setup is

either

6:4 cop:doc

or

5:5. The scum know which of the two it is.

Yesterday, we had 3 flipped cops, with 2 claimed cops: Umlaut and Radical Rat.

The scum mechanically could

not

disbelieve Radical Rat last night

.

If we have a 6:4 setup, then with three flipped cops, Umlaut + RR would leave one cop

missing

.
If we have a 5:5 setup, then with three flipped cops, Umlaut + RR fills the gap, leaving the scum believing all remaining players are doctors.

Ergo, Radical Rat's assertion the scum didn't believe them is factually impossible, unless of course the scum knew their claim was fake by virtue of RR being scum.
(This, aside from how RR was being protected, and Ranger/Umlaut kills conftown me which forces LLD to give up the tunnel on me.)

If

Radical Rat were really a doctor, then

from RR's perspective

, the game should be

either

6:4,

or

5:5. Radical Rat has no information to believe otherwise, given the above.

Radical Rat's read on Umlaut prior to today was positive. (It's hard to track down with a control-f search since most is in posts not mentioning Umlaut by name, but it's there.)

Radical Rat's push on Umlaut appears as TMI of

knowing

Umlaut is scum and

knowing

we're in 5:5.

[Ranger]

If I'm going to be in a 1v1 with Umlaut, why do I not just claim a guilty? If we're scum together it doesn't matter which of us lives, but doing it that way gives the survivor credibility in a way that doesn't happen with me admitting to faking

You're not dumb.
If Umlaut is town, entering into a 1v1 with him means you die either today or tomorrow.
If Umlaut is town, you likely die today in said 1v1.
Retracting leaves you a method of escape.

If Umlaut is scum, you entering into a 1v1

guarantees

dead scum today.
Retracting (and claiming doctor who acts tonight) leaves the option, however remote, of a nonscum elimination today/tomorrow.

If Umlaut is scum and you enter into a 1v1, there's a good chance

you die today

, which is the worst-case scenario for scum:
Umlaut as the last scum, with an innocent on Ranger, and LLD in the game. Either the scum leave me alive for 5p to kill LLD, or kill me and deal with LLD. In either case, the outlook for Umlaut is terrible. His 1v1 with you doesn't save his life, and leaves him in prime position to be eliminated because regardless of which of {LLD, Ranger} is killed, both would want Umlaut dead D5.

Retracting the claim and claiming a doctor which acts tonight allows you to guarantee you're not the scum who dies today.

With Umlaut dead today, LLD guns for me D5 opening up a path to a 3p lylo.
With RR dead today, LLD/Ranger gun for Umlaut D5.

By retracting the claim and claiming N4 doctor, you ensure instead of Radical Rat, it is Umlaut who takes the fall today. Regardless of Umlaut's alignment, that's +scum for you.

[Ranger]

While I believe Radical Rat has a higher chance of flipping scum, I believe this is the correct play given LLD will never not vote me.

VOTE: Umlaut

In the unlikely event of RR being town (they're not), a RR mislim today would lead to an Umlaut elim tomorrow and LLD voting me in lylo (a town loss).

In the likely event Umlaut is scum, an Umlaut elimination means a likely Ranger elimination tomorrow, and we are left with a 3p taking into account the removal of the game-long tunnel.

[Ranger]

We had four flipped cops yesterday, that's why Enchant makes five.

redFF
Detective Penguin
furtiveglance
Ethel

And now Enchant

Correct, but Enchant wasn't dead when the scum made their nightkill.

And you're insinuating Umlaut isn't town.

With the setup confirmed to be either 5:5 or 6:4 and the scum knowing which it is and with Enchant

not being flipped last night

, then there is no missing cop with your alleged cop claim.

If Umlaut is a real cop, then the setup would be 6:4, and with 4 dead cops, Umlaut + RR would make 6.
If Umlaut is scum, then the setup would be 5:5, and with 4 dead cops, +RR would make 5.

Which means

regardless of Umlaut's alignment

, the scum

would not doubt your claim

--unless of course you're scum so they already know your claim to be fake.

[Ranger]

We had four flipped cops yesterday, that's why Enchant makes five.

redFF
Detective Penguin
furtiveglance
Ethel

And now Enchant

Correct, but Enchant wasn't dead when the scum made their nightkill.

And you're insinuating Umlaut isn't town.

With the setup confirmed to be either 5:5 or 6:4 and the scum knowing which it is and with Enchant

not being flipped last night

, then there is no missing cop with your alleged cop claim.

If Umlaut is a real cop, then the setup would be 6:4, and with 4 dead cops, Umlaut + RR would make 6.
If Umlaut is scum, then the setup would be 5:5, and with 4 dead cops, +RR would make 5.

Which means

regardless of Umlaut's alignment

, the scum

would not doubt your claim

--unless of course you're scum so they already know your claim to be fake.

Simply put: Enchant did not claim cop.

The scum had no way of knowing Enchant was a cop.

If Umlaut + RR are scum, then there was a missing cop to them. (5:5, 4 flipped, both claimed cops fake.) (Enchant fills the gap.)
If Umlaut is town and RR is scum, there was a missing cop to them. (6:4, 4 flipped, 1 claimed town cop, 1 fake cop claim.) (Enchant fills the gap.)

If Umlaut is town and RR is town,

there was no missing cop to them

. (6:4, 4 flipped, Umlaut+RR makes 6.) (Enchant brings this above the total.)

[Ranger]

We had four flipped cops yesterday, that's why Enchant makes five.

redFF
Detective Penguin
furtiveglance
Ethel

And now Enchant

Correct, but Enchant wasn't dead when the scum made their nightkill.

And you're insinuating Umlaut isn't town.

With the setup confirmed to be either 5:5 or 6:4 and the scum knowing which it is and with Enchant

not being flipped last night

, then there is no missing cop with your alleged cop claim.

If Umlaut is a real cop, then the setup would be 6:4, and with 4 dead cops, Umlaut + RR would make 6.
If Umlaut is scum, then the setup would be 5:5, and with 4 dead cops, +RR would make 5.

Which means

regardless of Umlaut's alignment

, the scum

would not doubt your claim

--unless of course you're scum so they already know your claim to be fake.

Simply put: Enchant did not claim cop.

The scum had no way of knowing Enchant was a cop.

If Umlaut + RR are scum, then there was a missing cop to them. (5:5, 4 flipped, both claimed cops fake.) (Enchant fills the gap.)
If Umlaut is town and RR is scum, there was a missing cop to them. (6:4, 4 flipped, 1 claimed town cop, 1 fake cop claim.) (Enchant fills the gap.)

If Umlaut is town and RR is town,

there was no missing cop to them

. (6:4, 4 flipped, Umlaut+RR makes 6.) (Enchant brings this above the total.)

For completion's sake,
If Umlaut is scum and RR is town, there was no missing cop to them. (6:4, 4 flipped, 1 fake cop claim, 1 claimed town cop.) (They would think the cop to be RR, but it was actually Enchant.)

Regardless, the math never adds up to the scum

knowing

RR's claim was fake.
The scum always should believe RR's claim as real--unless the scum knew it was fake because RR is scum.

[Ranger]

We had four flipped cops yesterday, that's why Enchant makes five.

redFF
Detective Penguin
furtiveglance
Ethel

And now Enchant

Correct, but Enchant wasn't dead when the scum made their nightkill.

And you're insinuating Umlaut isn't town.

With the setup confirmed to be either 5:5 or 6:4 and the scum knowing which it is and with Enchant

not being flipped last night

, then there is no missing cop with your alleged cop claim.

If Umlaut is a real cop, then the setup would be 6:4, and with 4 dead cops, Umlaut + RR would make 6.
If Umlaut is scum, then the setup would be 5:5, and with 4 dead cops, +RR would make 5.

Which means

regardless of Umlaut's alignment

, the scum

would not doubt your claim

--unless of course you're scum so they already know your claim to be fake.

If Umlaut is Town, with four cops already flipped... 4 dead + 2 claimed = 6, which is impossible in a 5 cop game, but possible in a 6 cop game.

Therefore if scum believes me it's confirmed a 6 cop game, and if they don't it's highly likely a 5 cop game.

Again.

Enchant wasn't dead last night

.

For all intents and purposes,

regardless of 5:5 or 6:4

, the scum wouldn't know RR was faking if RR were town.

They would assume RR instead of Enchant was the last cop

.

Imagine if Enchant had claimed yesterday and RR did not.
We'd have six claimed cops, and scum would know the total (and it would be either five or six).

It's identical in every way to RR having claimed and Enchant having not.

[Ranger]

If Umlaut is in fact town as claimed post-hammer, I do in fact lean towards {RR, KawaiiKame} for the hammer Kawaii dropped if nothing else.

Prior to Gimli's recent posting I thought Gimli could be TMI'ing scum by virtue of having pushed Cephrir over furtive and RR over Umlaut (in other words, being right on both scum is actually arguably suspect), but with Gimli's solving I actually believe he genuinely came to those conclusions organically without knowing too much.

I don't believe LLD is ever scum here.

So the last two scum are in {RR, KawaiiKame, Save the Dragons}.

[Ranger]

Scum can believe me if Umlaut is scum, but if Umlaut is Town they can ONLY believe me in a six cop game because four plus one equals five. And six is greater than five.

Again, you're arguing under the knowledge Enchant has flipped. But he hadn't.

If Umlaut is town, there's six cops in the game and yesterday

there were six cops claimed

. Six, not five, not seven.
If Umlaut is scum, there's five cops in the game and yesterday

there were six cops claimed

. With the scum knowing Umlaut is scum, that's five legit cops total. Five, not six, not seven.

[Ranger]

Scum can believe me if Umlaut is scum, but if Umlaut is Town they can ONLY believe me in a six cop game because four plus one equals five. And six is greater than five.

Again, you're arguing under the knowledge Enchant has flipped. But he hadn't.

If Umlaut is town, there's six cops in the game and yesterday

there were six cops claimed

. Six, not five, not seven.
If Umlaut is scum, there's five cops in the game and yesterday

there were six cops claimed

. With the scum knowing Umlaut is scum, that's five legit cops total. Five, not six, not seven.

I'd like to reiterate this.

With RR's claim being false regardless of their alignment, RR's claim is interchangeable with Enchant's. The scum cannot magically know RR's claim is false unless RR is scum.

If Umlaut is town, with Enchant having been a cop (just unflipped), scum knew the total of cops was six, and Umlaut+RR/Enchant made 6. The scum would believe the sixth was RR, if RR were town.
If Umlaut is scum, with Enchant having been an unflipped cop, scum knew the total of cops was five, and RR/Enchant made five (with Umlaut fakeclaiming).
The scum would know any scum claiming would be fake, but with Enchant having

not

claimed,

scum could not have known RR's claim was fake

...unless of course RR was scum.

[Ranger]

Yes. And scum knows AHEAD OF TIME how many cops there are.
So if there are six claims and they know there's only five in the game, BEFORE anything happens with Enchant... what does that mean?

You're arguing something impossible: Umlaut+Enchant town with five cops in the game after 4 had flipped.

Your argument literally relies on that impossible scenario, which the scum would know was impossible.
The scum know the total of cops is either five or six.
The scum know Umlaut claimed cop.
The scum know RR claimed cop (and RR in this case is interchangeable with Enchant).

5 cops with Umlaut+Enchant/RR both claimed is impossible, and scum knew that yesterday.

[Ranger]

I really don't want tomorrow to just be arguing over elementary school math, so please just. Look at it again over the night without confbias

There's no confbias involved.

Regardless of your alignment

, and

regardless of Umlaut's alignment

, there is never too many cop claims yesterday in the scum's eyes.

There's either exactly the right amount, or

one too few

.

The scum know the total number of cops this game.
If the total is 5, then yesterday they would see 4 dead cops and two claimed cops. They would know that's an impossibility and one would be fake. If neither claim is scum, they would "know" one was town and lying. (And with Enchant taken into the equation without their knowledge, they would be

two over the total

, because 4 dead + Enchant + RR + Umlaut = 7.) This scenario

requires both claims to be lies

, because with 5 cops in the game and Enchant unclaimed, both claimed cops would be fake.
And since Enchant was a cop and Umlaut is claimed cop,

this cannot be possible

.

If the total is 5, then yesterday they would see 4 dead cops and two claimed cops, and know which of them was lying. They would "know"

the remaining cop was town

.

If the total is 6, then yesterday they would see 4 dead cops and two claimed cops, and know if any were lying. They would "know" the claims to be real.

[Ranger]

To be clear, I'll be instavoting Radical Rat tomorrow if Lady Lambdadelta dies overnight.

If Umlaut flips town cop as it seems, LLD would be forced to accept I'm town on D5.

I'm not letting RR get away with "I protected Ranger" as an excuse for letting LLD die.

[Ranger]

of course, if RR is scum he needs to holster, this is entirely expected

If RR is scum, they'd have no need to holster.

Just kill me and claim they protected LLD.

If they intended to claim a protection on me, and didn't want to run into me voting them because of LLD's death, they could kill you, as you were the towniest slot to most yesterday, and if there were a real N4 doctor, the real N4 doctor would be on one of {Ranger, LLD}.

I lean towards 1 scum in {LLD, RR} and 1 scum in {KawaiiKame, Save the Dragons}.

Not voting yet as we've a full game to view now.

[Ranger]

I'm sorry I need time to sit down with this game and I'm not sure yet when that will be

Thursday sound good to you?

Sounds good to me.

[Ranger]

Mechanically, despite there being a high chance {Save The Dragons, KawaiiKame} contains at least 1 scum,
Those same mechanics dictate there’s a high chance {StD, Kawaii} contains at least 1 Doctor, and likely a N5 one at that.

Since we don’t have confirmation (nor should we), it’s mechanically a mistake to eliminate in that duo. As long as the scum don’t know if there’s a N5 Doctor, they don’t know what kill to make. If they kill the protection, we gain a mislim; if they kill a nonconfirmed to bypass this, it reduces tomorrow's lim pool.

As such, we shouldn’t no-lim.

From a mechanics standpoint, this leaves three optimal eliminations:
{Radical Rat, Lady Lambdadelta, Gimli}.
Provided one caveat; the team needs to not be precisely {STD, Kawaii}.

As long as the scumteam isn’t that duo specifically, it’s optimal to eliminate outside the duo, in the pool of 3.

Tomorrow, I'll start diving into likely teams.

[Ranger]

I'll give full disclosure now in advance:
I'm incredibly biased towards believing RR is scum.

Barring a smoking gun producing strong doubts, I likely vote them.

I'm aware of my biases. Being cognizant of them, I will try not to tunnel.
I will do my best to analyze the information available critically and objectively.

However, I do truly believe there’s quite strong evidence suggesting Radical Rat is likely scum. The bias I have is from evidence I believe is fairly strong.

I'll try to maximize transparency of thought tomorrow.

In the meanwhile, an opening prod for LLD:

Lady Lambdadelta:

You've given precious little in terms of reads this game outside of the one now irrefutably incorrect (Ranger scum).

You've given stances: furtiveglance elimination > Cephrir.
You've given mechanics.

I can honestly say I can only remember one read of yours outside your Ranger scumread and my memory says it was only once, then quickly dropped.

A great deal of my doubts on your alignment revolve around your lack of reads.

Care to change my perspective?

[Ranger]

Saying "I think it's LLD/Kawaii"
"the only other possible solve is STD/Kawaii"
And then voting me instead of

The person who is in both of those worlds

Is a straight up scumclaim

I'm inclined to agree; it appears as pandering to me, and pandering is something Radical Rat has been guilty of the entire game.

I've not yet done the work I intended to, can't do it this second but will within next 14 hours.

[Ranger]

LLD: "Town need to work together, and follow whatever Ranger says!"
Me: "I have two really confident scumreads, I'll pick the one that should be optimal from the rest of the Town's perspective, following Ranger's argument."
LLD: "No that's scumclaiming!"

The issue is, you're not LLD.

You weren't the one advocating for doing whatever I say.

LLD can believe it's optimal to follow me, while also believing your actions where you follow me are a scumclaim.

[Ranger]

STD, your take on all of this is WAY more suspicious than RR's is.

I'm also inclined towards this take as well.

I understand why Save the Dragons would have the stances he's given as town in

theory

.

I didn't need LLD's pointing it out to naturally form the same conclusion of her; STD's defense of RR is tangibly

there

, and suspect.

[Ranger]

this really feels like you're trying to control the game state, not trying to sort

I'm aware of the possibility.

LLD is still giving voice to arguments I myself was seeing without her having done so.

I

agree

with her. I realize it could be her controlling things in a way pandering to my biases. Still, I see the same things she's pointing out and feel there's at least a decent chance she's correct.

[Ranger]

I am fucking sorting you right now

I should note for the sake of objectivity, there

is

validity in pointing out LLD stated today was left to my call (so her sorting this phase would be largely nai), and she's turned around to start sorting despite this.

However, it felt to me LLD was essentially baited into it. I feel the earlier stance was one LLD intended to hold regardless of her alignment; regardless of her alignment, her being drawn into sorting is a deviation from her previous plan. The shift isn't something I feel is suspect.

[Ranger]

i guess i'm confused why ranger is like
"we should vote within the three of {RR, LLD, Gimli} due to potential doc shenanigans and then when RR does that for ranger's reasoning it's suspect

Because I'm conftown, not confright/confsmart. LLD advocated for sheeping my call and nothing else mattering.

Other players didn't.
1562 even points out why it's bad to blindly sheep me. And far more damning,

Ranger is IC right now, yes. That does not mean she is infallible.
We should vote correctly today, whether Ranger agrees or doesn't. Her being confirmed makes her an incredibly valuable touchstone as a known good-faith source, and lowers the pool of elimination candidates increasing our odds of getting it right... but she is NOT an absolute authority that must be sheeped at all costs.

I believe it's correct play to vote in the pool of {RR, LLD, Gimli}.

Radical Rat themselves specified I am not infallible. My beliefs are included. Just because I believe the pool of {RR, LLD, Gimli} is correct to vote within does not make it correct. I believe it is; I am not infallible.

Radical Rat believing I am not infallible, and Radical Rat sheeping my belief, is a contradiction.

[Ranger]

how can you agree with her if you wanted to kill outside of kawaii today

My desires matter little to the perspective of others. Your engagement with LLD came across as suspect. Radical Rat's perspective comes across as suspect. You

are

defending Radical Rat, so LLD is correct in pointing out you've done so.

[Ranger]

im not willing to lose if kawaii is a n5 doc

This is +scum imo.

From StD's perspective, he'd be a doctor. He's not an N4 doctor; were he, he'd have claimed his protection last night.

He'd be a N1/2/3/5 Doctor.
I would be another doctor.

From his perspective, he should know he didn't save anyone last night, and there's a high chance one of {LLD, RR} did.
Regardless of whether scum killed last night or no-killed, both LLD and RR claimed to have protected me; the only world where neither did is if {LLD, RR} is the scumteam, they no-killed, and are orchestrating a 1v1 between them.
Since that's quite unlikely, STD should believe at least one claim in those two.

With myself as a town doctor, with himself as a town doctor, and with at least one of LLD/RR as a town doctor, there would be only one doctor remaining.

[Ranger]

Sadly, have to step away for now. I'll be back much later and yes, I am reading.

[Ranger]

@ranger: does this solve make sense to you?

Perhaps.
The full list of possibilities is,
{Gimli, LLD}
{Gimli, RR}
{Gimli, StD}
{Gimli, Kawaii}
{LLD, RR}
{LLD, StD}
{LLD, Kawaii}
{RR, StD}
{RR, Kawaii}
{StD, Kawaii}
(If I didn't miss any.)

{Gimli, LLD} is unlikely. (Interactions across whole game.)
{Gimli, RR} is unlikely. (This is because Gimli advocated for RR > Umlaut yesterday. It's

possible

as a bus; it's not likely.)
{Gimli, Kawaii} is unlikely. (Play today.)

{LLD, RR} is unlikely. (Their 1v1.)
{LLD, StD} is unlikely. (Their interactions.)

There may be some more unlikely than others.

And some of the remaining may also be unlikely.

I still need to consider,
{Gimli, StD}
{LLD, Kawaii}
{RR, StD}
{RR, Kawaii}
{StD, Kawaii}

(I'm out of focus due to holidays.)

It's most likely RR's scum with one of StD/Kawaii.
I've the time to investigate despite my failure today.

[Ranger]

Less time than I thought; tomorrow will be when I make the decision.

[Ranger]

townies in (

ethel

ceph

umlaut

lld

ranger peng sail

). more certain on peng not too sure about the others. I like the vibe of ceph's this game but I heavily dislike the way he pushed ranger. same goes for umlaut, though umlaut is giving me more townie looking solvey posts that I can townread them for.

how about this POE for d1: (korina, RR,

sail

, std,

furtive, redff

)

Full disclosure: I'm not sure how to truly engage with my thoughts here as I'm reading.

Multiple times, I'm seeing things reaffirming my prior stances:
Gimli looks town on his own merits.
Does LLD fake the scumtell on me knowing a mislim, or did she get it wrong?
LLD-Cephrir have interactions which don't look partnered, yet both are skilled enough to fake it.

Korina (KawaiiKame slot) vaguely appears +town for their Ceph takes, yet it's not out of the realm of being a scumbuddy.

This is the first post I feel worth commenting on.

While there's flipped scum in the town pool, unless the scumteam is

precisely

{LLD, Gimli}, then it's guaranteed Gimli had only 1 scum in the town, and by proxy, at least 1 scum in the D1 PoE.

Even this is less groundbreaking than I was hoping for, as there'd only be one scum to find outside Cephrir if Gimli's scum. (The list would essentially be a rule of 3.)

At the time I quoted this, I felt it was +town. Now, I'm less convinced it's +town, although regardless I don't think it's +scum (it might just be null).

[Ranger]

Not sure yet

Coward. :3

If you think my push is NAI, you should be flipping it to read me. Not generating paranoia and then going to find a counter wagon.

It's not townie to say "lld town reads premature, also I won't flip The read she is confident in"

As an aside, I don't think the friendship trio is the scumteam. This loosely makes me believe LLD's not scum with STD, and LLD comes across the better in the exchange.

We know Save the Dragons never voted me D1 past this point.

In fact, he voted both wagons opposite mine.

That decision feels strategic.

Deliberately avoiding a Ranger flip is something I believe was +scum, and Save the Dragons was a major component in it.

LLD was quite correct to say it wasn't town of StD.

[Ranger]

People are putting up a lot of resistance to Ranger scum. I would expect to see more purchase onto the wagon were ranger town.

I actually believe this is true. My wagon received strong resistance. Save the Dragons opposed the wagon. Gimli opposed the wagon.
There were also town opposed (Detective Penguin).

However, some resistance as +scum is guaranteed;
Cephrir was off the wagon and voted for both counterwagons.

I believe more than one scum player resisted the wagon.

The only scumteam where both members were proponents of voting me out D1 is {KawaiiKame, Radical Rat}.
Korina never unvoted me, and Radical Rat only unvoted me to hammer redFF.

When I wanted myself dead D1, when LLD was pushing for me to die D1, when I repeatedly got to L-2 and even L-1: if scum weren't resisting my wagon, why wasn't I eliminated?

There's value to be had in not actively supporting my death and letting it be mostly town backing the wagon.

That alone doesn't justify my survival. I shouldn't have lived D1. Why did I, when multiple town pushed for it? The pushback against the wagon being all town seems unlikely.

[Ranger]

From page 12, I believe the interactions are +town for LLD regardless.

They're

slightly

+scum for STD I think, and reaffirms my stance it's not STD+LLD.

[Ranger]

and I'm feeling like disengaging with this game cause I think this game is bullshit

is there any possibility of being the change you want to see instead
im kind of on the fence about ranger right now and i don't think im alone in at least having significant questions

I believe this was not scum-scum and was Cephrir manipulating Gimli.


307 also indicates LLD's not scum with Cephrir to me.

[Ranger]

VOTE: furtiveglance

VOTE: furtive

Why is Furtive suddenly a wagon

Why not

Reading these, they loosely indicate the KawaiiKame slot as not scum with STD+Cephrir.

STD is more neutral in the interaction, situationally suspect if the swap was strategic.

I also get Korina/Kawaii not scum with Gimli, so at this stage: who would KawaiiKame be scum with?

[Ranger]

Vote Count 1-5.5

Ranger

(

5

3)

:

Lady Lambdadelta -

Ranger -

redFF

-

Umlaut

- Korina

furtiveglance

(6)

:

Gimli -

Cephrir

- Save The Dragons, Umlaut, PenguinPower, redFF

Not Voting

(3)

:

Ethel

- Radical Rat -

furtiveglance

The furtiveglance wagon at L-1 had three town players hop onto it.

While I doubt the furtiveglance wagon was frontloaded with 3 scum, I feel it's unlikely to be just the 1. {LLD/Korina, Cephrir, Radical Rat} is possible. {LLD, Korina, Cephrir} is possible, albeit doubtful. (To reiterate, if two scum were on my wagon, there's no reason it shouldn't have gone through.)

I think it's quite likely the scum did wagon furtiveglance here with more than Cephrir.

[Ranger]

Ceph I STG if you flip Furtive over Ranger and it flips town, you better shoot me tonight because I'm coming for you tomorrow.

This is quite promising for LLD being town as well.

[Ranger]

And also because town STD has been a steady miselim in just baout every game i've played with them recently and scum STD hasn't so I'd rather see the amount of pushback STD gets as the day grows but shhh that was a secret i wasn't supposed to say that

Weirdly, Save the Dragons hasn't been pushed this game...at all.

Until today.

[Ranger]

Wouldn't it be funny if this was meant for the scum PT and was about Ceph+STD being scum together while LLD wasn't?

no redFF lives today we do gimli

VOTE: redFF :3

I don't think this was scum-scum. I believe the focus to redFF was deliberate.

There's a risk of {Gimli, STD} here. However, it could more simply be they felt redFF had a higher chance of being a non-Ranger wagon to go through.

[Ranger]

Vote Count 1-9

Ranger

(5)

:

Ranger

- KawaiiKame - Radical Rat -

redFF - Umlaut

Gimli

(1)

:

Lady Lambdadelta

redFF

(5)

:

Save The Dragons -

furtiveglance - Ethel

- Gimli -

Enchant

Enchant

(1)

:

Cephrir

VOTE: redFF

VOTE: RedFF

Given the choice between myself and redFF, Cephrir chose to vote redFF and Radical Rat (who was most strongly advocating for an elimination on me previously) hammered immediately after.
This in spite of 724 (stating suspicion on Cephrir) and no suspicion on redFF and having specified N1 is the optimal night to claim as scum (and redFF claimed N3).

All of these indicate deliberate strategy in the hammer of redFF over myself.

It looks quite bad for Radical Rat.

[Ranger]

- I've been vibing with Gimli for most of the day phase, so I'm going to throw him into the town bucket for today.

- I think scum!you would be playing to potential opportunities better, so either I get some associative from today or you are town. Either way, you are a no yeet.

- RR and redFF are basically null, but just a bit below. this is entirely gut based on their posting.

- Korina/Kawaii is scum, entirely because of korina. They don't believe what they say, in fact contradict themselves across pages, and just followed whatever you wanted to do as a smokescreen for their actions.

For what it's worth; this is Penguin's last reads. (From context I believe the 'you' is LLD?)

Obviously, reads aren't the only reason for a kill. It's quite likely Penguin was killed for other reasons. Players wanting to keep the gamestate without it being shifted, Cephrir thinking it's a good kill in general, etc.

Still, this loosely supports LLD/Gimli townreads, and most of the D1 evidence does as well.

I do think the scum pool is 2/3 of {StD, RR, Kawaii}.

I

lean

towards StD/RR as the team, but will continue reading to be thorough.

[Ranger]

Feel free to chime in if you've thoughts to give on what I am reading as well.

I realize my formatting isn't very conductive to being engaged (apologies), since I'm not asking open-ended questions. Still, before tomorrow will be the last chance for feedback, since decision drops tomorrow at the latest.

[Ranger]

While Cephrir knew he was dead regardless, I believe 990/992 and the numerous Cephrir posts after do say one of {StD, Kawaii} is scum.

The question becomes;
Did Cephrir tell the truth knowing he would go down (Kawaii scum, StD town),
Or did Cephrir Cephrir invert the alignments knowing he would go down (Kawaii town, StD scum)?

It's

possible

he had two town as opposite in the way he did.
(It's possible he divided scumbuddies up as well. Not as sure there.)

I don't feel that's true.

Loosely, I think it's likely the latter. The former is surface-level (distancing); it feels Cephrir would leave the interactions he thought we'd least predict. It goes down the WIFOM hole.

[Ranger]

you're wrong

Yes that's quite possible.

If so, can you help me see it?

[Ranger]

992 was probably a pocket attempt

Cephrir was guiltied scum.

He was going down either D2 or D3. He

couldn't

survive.

There wouldn't be a pocket attempt.

Only his choice in a legacy.

[Ranger]

Cephrir why did you request lld post before day end

thought she might read the situation correctly

This is a lackluster justification which I feel is actually +town for LLD.

It sadly says nothing about STD to me.

[Ranger]

i think lld has a lackluster partner in kawaii and is not really feeling this game because she's tired of carrying games (see PYP).

I don't get these vibes at all, sorry.

[Ranger]

Radical Rat is doing some really strange mental gymnastics that are possibly outside their townrange

I feel this is apt not just of the events on D2 but of later as well.

The mental gymnastics required from Radical Rat are by far more complex than the simpler explanation; Radical Rat is scum pursuing a scum wincon.

[Ranger]

I think you're wrong about me. Social reads definitely play a large part, but

I do favor logical analysis/mech where it's available.

Not that you have any real reason to believe me right now, and I'm much too lazy to dig up games, but for future reference you're just wrong here.

This feels important given Radical Rat's retraction of claim is based on something they later admitted, after I spent twenty posts explaining it, was a mechanical error.

They specify a preference for logical analysis and mechanics.

What am I meant to think when a player like that makes a glaring mechanical error lacking the logical analysis?

[Ranger]

StD I'm fairly comfortable with being Town. Nothing I've seen from him so far has raised any alarms.

LLD is probably Town as well. Whether you agree with her or not, it very much reads to me like she's genuinely attempting to solve the game, and I don't think she'd be so easily frustrated if she already knew she was lying.

One of these does not seem like the other.

Notably I agree with the LLD take; it is both logical and matches everything I've been rereading.

The StD take seems oddly out of place.

[Ranger]

RR is town.

Ethel can be scum.

Kawaii can be scum only if Ranger is town though. If Ranger scum kawaii town.

STD scum.

Ceph dies before lylo.

Enchant prolly town.

Uhh

Why is RR town? They should have known better than to vote me.

Contrary to popular belief, I am not perfect

RR dude. Furtive is claimed scum. They are trolling post hammer.

This also feels telling.

Radical Rat's response indicates they knew furtiveglance would flip town.

LLD's a good enough player to fake belief town will flip scum, yet this interaction in particular seems like she didn't.

[Ranger]

I have no checks.
Cephrir has to die today of course, and hopefully we'll have something to corroborate Umlaut before tomorrow.

This does read to me as Radical Rat softing investigative.

no checks

It feels suspect for these two, and these two specifically, to be the ones stating "no checks".

Oh so it's all 6.

Notably, this makes me feel Radical Rat's claimed play is damning regardless of whether it was genuine or not.

If Radical Rat was genuine in making a mechanical error, then Enchant's last post fits with Radical Rat's mistaken worldview, as spewing Enchant as a cop. If Radical Rat made a math error, then Enchant saying "oh it's 6 cops" would be taken as a cop claim by a scumteam with Radical Rat...when Enchant was referring to having four flipped cops and Umlaut/RR being claimed.

If Radical Rat was lying about making a mechanical error, then it is lying about a mechanical error.

I feel the reason for Radical Rat being scum changes, yet RR remains +scum regardless.

[Ranger]

I've finished up to today (where interactions are less telling although I feel still useful);

At this stage, I'm at:

Radical Rat > Save the Dragons > KawaiiKame > Lady Lambdadelta > Gimli

Gimli's been spewed town repeatedly and has no scum interactions at all.
Lady Lambdadelta's a skilled scum player fully capable of pulling a solid scum performance off, but the net total of all her actions across the entire game read consistently as town almost without fail, and her interactions with flipped scum and other slots also seem anti-scum. It's

possible

; I don't think she is.
KawaiiKame's a null slot overall. Korina

loosely

has some weak antibuddy interactions, that's about it.

Radical Rat and Save the Dragons both have interactions suggesting they're scum with each other and Cephrir. By play, StD has

moments

of looking town and so does Radical Rat; overall, Radical Rat by far looks the most likely scum and StD the most likely scumbuddy.

I won't vote until tomorrow, so you'll have time to discuss;
As-is:

Intent to Vote Radical Rat

[Ranger]

I've made my decision.

VOTE: Radical Rat

Apologies if it's wrong.

[Ranger]

Apologies for making the wrong call.

In

hindsight

, it's possible to individually reach correct conclusions on each slot; I don't think I ever would've gotten that team.

My doubts on Gimli felt unjustified paranoia; even the few worlds of Gimli-scum I considered had him as scum with RR, relying on Gimli being

too

town (right on furtiveVCeph, right on UmalutvRR); I don't think I would've caught him at all.

Sorry.

[Ranger]

I believe the setup is balanced, or close to.
Gimli in particular played well.
Cephrir also did a good job.
The town made some mistakes which gave the scum the needed room to win. I accept full responsibility for my part in this.

Still, I truly feel it is more of a scum win than a town loss; IIRC, Gimli was suspected a grand total of two times and both times I'm fairly certain the player FoSed with him was town (Gimli, RR; Gimli, Ranger; never Gimli+Kawaii IIRC). It was possible to catch him; we almost never

would

. That's my personal opinion, at least.